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BATMAN Producer Michael Uslan Hints At Next Film's Release...
Merrick here...
In an interview with the Courier-Post, producer Michael Uslan offered an ETA for the next BATMAN installment.
Uslan will be onboard as executive producer for the "Dark Knight" sequel, which he estimates will be theaters by 2011. As for the identity of the next round of Batman's supervillains and love interests, Uslan remains tight-lipped. "It's one of those deals where if I told you, I'd have to kill you," he says with a chuckle.
...said Uslan in the interview, which can be found HERE
The coming of another BAT film has been a foregone conclusion for quite a while, but this may be the first (?) first solid indicator we've received regarding timing.
Presumably the project will return Nolan, Goyer & Co. (who've indicated they're already shaping workable story ideas for a third Bale-BAT adventure), although nothing should be seen as set in stone until former announcements are made.
One COMPLETELY UNSUBSTANTIATED rumor has THE SOPRANOS' David Chase taking over for Nolan. Personally, I call shenanigans. Just conveying a report recently sent in by one untested source...
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down.
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I don't know if it's just me, but, I wasn't blown away by "The Dark Knight"... I'm a big Batman fan, always have been, but I just thought it was an ok film, bit too long, with some good performances... But pant wettingly good, nah... I'm sure a sequel will be good though - as Nolan has proven to make solid superhero movies... Just my 10 cents (or 10p)..
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TDK sucked!!! Giving us a date for the next Batman movie sounds more like a threat, not a treat.
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Jan 26, 2009 7:39:21 AM CST
It would seem that TDK exhausted all the character's possibiliti
by sarajevobot
But there are one or two things they haven't tried yet.... They could experiment with having a lead character who is decisive. Explore the concept of coherent plotting and legible character motivation. Maybe even throw in a trackable fight scene or two?
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Jake Gyllenhaal as Terry McGuinness. Batman Beyond then writes itself. If not Jake then who? I'm not budging on Clint.
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TDK was horrible, boring, overlong...had too many side stories, Bruce Wayne and Rachel's relationship...or any implication of a love trangle with Harvey Dent, was ignored??? Christian Bale just stood, and or, sat around, in business suits for the wealth of the movie discussing meaningless red herrings with Alfred? We learned nothing about either him or Alfred? We learned nothing about Rachel? Commissoner Gordon was bland, Morgan Freeman's character was bland...and what the hell was the Scarecrow and a bunch of phony Batmen doing in this pcture...it was just silly??? Eric Roberts was misdirected and given nothing to do...the same can be said of Michael Jai White, who came off as if he can't act??? All, thus proving that Chris Nolan doesn't have a clue as to what makes great drama or a good film???
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PROVE it, Nolan!!!!
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You heard it from me first.
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If the news doesn't come from the Nolan-camp or is at least Nolan related it's completely useless. Thiugh I do get nervous when I sart seeing guys like this chomping at the bit for interviews and sound bytes reminds me of how the success of Spidey 2 confused Avi Arad into thinking he was one of the stars of that film's creative team. Hopefully Uslan realizes his role in this project consists of nothing more than giving Nolan the greenlight when Nolan says he's ready to start. Until then there's just plain ole nothing to talk about
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on everybody in this post that is blasting TDK, because you KNOW in your heart of hearts that you were creaming your jeans in the theater and now just want to sound cool by trying to offer a different opinion. The movie had faults, but even thru those faults, it was highly enjoyable.
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Otherwise, what would be the harm in telling us who the characters will be? It's not like it's a full casting announcement.
Uslan knows nothing! NOTHING!
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left me cold. Technically very well made movie. very good perfomances. too many stories. too much hype. that rachel/bruce/harvey love story was bungled. as was Fox's character. very slick film. but empty.
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I don't think TDK was amazing (I actually enjoyed Iron Man more). But I don't think TDK should have been shorter; it should have been about a half hour longer, just so that some weird cuts could have been extended. And Bale could have emoted some more. Seriously, when he was in that Penthouse talking to Alfred about Rachel after she died, Bale looked no sadder than what would be classified as "kinda bummed." It didn't come across like the love of his life (and life-long friend) just died.
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I WAS blown away by Ledger's Joker. I'll give it that. And I DID notice and appreciate the theme of duality and its many layers.
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It won't come out until 2020, and have a controversial ending.
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compelled to send clues to the police. Some point to him, some point to the Batman, and some point to another villain who doesn't appear in the film.
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Spot on.
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Oh wait.
When Rachel was killed, the movie lost a little steam, I thought. Because the Joker had succeeded. Then it moved on to yet another elaborate scheme of his. So that's why it felt a little long. But is still good. -
becuase there wont be a third batman film at least not yet. Bale will not be back. the memories of the film and the memories he had working with legder, they became very good friends, mean that making a third batman film will be a very tough call. for him and for everyone else. They screwed up the rachel dawes love angle. These are not just new criticism that I had 5 mins ago ar just to be cool. I had those criticism after I left the cinema. those criticism dont take away from the fact it was a very well made movie technially and ledgers performace was very very good. that scene with the gang and and the body bag, made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck. as well as his menace. I can well believe that he has tough time making
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TDK was awright with the detective work, but I can't be the only one who wants a Batman film that's a mystery film first, action film second.
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And Robert downey's gay ass made the movie even more gay. semi effiminiate midget does not make a convincing playboy or a superhero.
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Nolan has ruled out ever using Catwoman in a film, but I can see her character in Nolan's universe if it's based strongly off of Batman Year One.......Oh, and I can also see Commissioner Gordon being so plagued with guilt over the injustice done to Batman (that he was indirectly responsible for) that he's driven to have an affair with Sarah Essen.......all of the material is there, so Nolan can't claim that he's short on ideas.
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I could dig them getting the Kolchak: The Night Stalker editor directing. Did he do something else since then?
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INDEED!
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Brokeback mountain both Terry Gilliam and James Schamus think it did. actors who work with ang lee all say that before he calls action he has very cuddly demeanour. that belies a more militaristic mind set that appears once lee shouts action. Lee treats his actors as alienated props. that possibly shattered Ledger emotionally and pyschologically. He thought he could do the joker but that put him over the edge. I call the riddler to be next villain.
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do with the franchise.
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That was so 90s Batman...
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You are a dufus. Come on? TDK is empty? Their is so much vibrant and raw emotion in that film, jesus christ. You must have watched that while on ritalin.
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gordon is: will he have a beer first?
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Yes, I'll keep posting that, see if anyone from the film production is watching, and hope for the best.
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TDK was Nolan's epic. It didn't always work, but it was all of the ideas that his career has been building up now. Now, let's see what an Aronofsky and a new writer can do with the same cast. Have it as a sequel, but with a new style.
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It doesn't need one- chicks aren't going to watch a Batman film for a romantic sub plot. Fuck's sake- this stupidity needs to end.
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with all this Heath was "shattered" by Brokeback and Bale won't return because of Heath talk.
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This is the new trend. It's soooo cool to say NOW that TDK sucked. Yeah... we reaaly believe you. Grow up.
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speak in Birmingham for an hour about how he got into the business. He taught the first ever college course about Comic Book heroes. It took him 10 years to get a darker Batman off the ground. It ended up being the one Tim Burton did. Up until that point, Batman had only been a silly TV show. His story was pretty amazing in showing just how persistent he was. I saw him speak right after the opening weekend of The Dark Knight. He was blown away by the success, and beaming with pride about the quality of the movie and how Nolan captured the darkness he wanted perfectly.
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Or a wacky sidekick gifted in slapstick? Maybe Batman can get a chick pregnant, and it will change his whole perspective on life. I'm kidding, of course. I, for one, hope Nolan stays onboard. Look what switching directors did for Craig's 007 franchise. "Casino Royale" ... thumbs up. That "Quantum of Solace" B.S. ... the finger!
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that's a blast from the past.....what was that from? Deadline? 2000ad, Revolver?
2000ad - a guy with bryl creamed dreadlocks, that's it. Man that takes me waaay back. -
if Nolan returns, i'm quite sure Bale will follow. hell, even if Nolan is out, with the amount of money they'd throw at him, Bale will still stick around. what is going to do otherwise, Terminator 8?
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seriously, i have nothing againt the riddler, but he's far to similar to the joker, and to follow TDK with amovie that has a similar villan will just bring criticismas much as it was done already i still say catwoman and penguin would be a great team upor do i dare say make mr freze the villan, i'd love to se nolan's take on that character and the series as already shown some out of normal science and technology, so adapting mr freeze into the nolanverse wouldn't be that hard or alter the character too much
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The Joker is Chaos, The Riddler is fierce logic. He doesn't care if he wins, he cares about competition - about matching wits with Batman, someone up to his level.
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Everyone I talk to loves it, including me. Filmmakers, friends, women... everyone. Only in here does the uber geek have to whine about a film that BOTH CRITICS and AUDIENCES have already proved it's a fantastic film. (Yes, I know: tastes in film are relative and personal... but so is politics. Sometimes the consensus of the mass proves a politican WAS a great leader.)
You freakin' whining bitches in here would complain about Beethoven's 9th Symphony if he wrote it today. Another reason I can't stand this site anymore. -
The guy who helps bring about two of the best Batman movies ever as well as the Batman animated movies is the same fucker who brought about Berry's 'Catwoman' and Frank Miller's 'The Spirit.' That's just fucking insane.
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the nipples, robin, batgirl, mr. freeze, and the tommy lee jones two-face.
Also, I went to school with his daughter, briefly. -
Just don't let him write it. Maybe Ed Burns and David Simon need a pay cheque. And the Penguin should be the villain in this one. It's a shame Devito was the perfect choice for the role.
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As one of the other posters said, technically, TDK is done well, even next to perfect, I might say...but then again, most films are technically accurate...but the script lacked merit. It missed many central and very important emotional beats. Any writing instructor and or most writing students, would instantly spot the wide variety of flaws in the film...on the script level, alone, but as a director, Nolan...at least should have seen the blandness and emotional deadness of his own film, and fixed it in the edit and with additional shoots. I am telling you, if they just gave Joss Whedon 20 pages to write the Rachel/Wayne/Dent love triangle...and another 10 pages to give some weight to The Joker and his dialogue, he would have turned the screws on those characters...but to do it...they would have needed to cut the Harvey Dent goes Two Face story arc, and leave it for another film...which they should have. The film should have ended minutes after Rachel's death...as one of the posters on this thread said...The Joker won. An ending like that would have changed the whole tone of the picture and freaked the audience out that sometimes the hero doesn't win. As far as the boat ferries...that scene and the hostages dressed as criminals in the building, should have been placed in the second act of the film for better impact. The civilians should have hit their detonation button hoping to kill the prisoners in place of them...and surprise, it is their boat that blows up, not that of the criminals??? That would have rattled people...but no, they took the easy way out.
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I KNEW the villain would be Tight Lips!!! Seriously though, I can easily see them using the Riddler in a minor role, but have him already locked up in Arkham but getting his riddles out to Bats. And have a tiny cameo by a real-world Penguin as one of the last mobsters in town. And then bring back HARVY!!!
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...More than TDK. It's called faggotry. They have shitty taste and in some cases, like Media Messiah, are perhaps legitimate retards. My favourite part about Iron Man was when they decided to cross reference The Incredible Hulk and devote ten minutes of screen time to two bad cartoons punching each other. Thats awesome story telling right there. And I also love how in Iron Man Favreau decided that he didn't want a conventional ending, but instead something more interesting, whereby you simply run out of story and jokes for Downey and stop the film.
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if too many people hail it as being great, you can't be a cool kid unless you proclaim it epic fail. at least, that's what i've learned from being here...
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Joss Whedon for the romantic triangle? Awesome, a retarded cliched sitcom element with half witted quips and eyebrow acting is exactly what a movie about a vigilante chasing a mass murderer needed. "The civilians should have hit their detonation button hoping to kill the prisoners in place of them...and surprise, it is their boat that blows up, not that of the criminals??? That would have rattled people". No, that would have rattled retards like yourself. You know why? Because thats what every single person in the cinema was EXPECTING to happen. They were even vocally declaring it. When it didn't it changed the story. It was well done, if a little anti-climactic. You can't place it in the second act, because its the failure of the joker. Thats the way it works. The only thing I agree with most of the haters on is the bizare transformation of Dent to Two Face and then his attack on Gordons kids, which made zero fucking sense, and only really exsisted to serve the themes Nolan was trying to express. Plus falling off a building work site is kind of...well...80's. That said, there hasn't been a big budget action/adventure film in the last ten years that can even come close to matching it. Look at Iron Man. A few stand up routines and the same boring super hero story told again. Thank fuck the cast and director are talented enough to still make it fun.
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and more visual style.. that's what I'd like to see. Keep the darkness but make it less "real world" and maybe add some heart. That last one was good but relentlessly cold and visually bland. Just no reboots. I think everyone knows who Batman is by this point.
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TDK is a badly written film...those are the facts. How is it that all we learn of Bruce Wayne's personal life are a few obscure references to Rachel and other than that...he spends all his time vaguely discussing the Joker with Alfred??? And what about those idiots running around with The Scarecrow...as phony Batmen??? It was all just a waste of screen time. You can't blame me for that, blame Nolan...he and his brother...along with that troll David Goyer, wrote that empty movie.
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Escalation...leads to Superman's involvement in the hunt for the Dark Knight. THAT...is how you follow-up THE DARK KNIGHT. And I do believe that Nolan has the vision...for Superman to exist in this universe. And how freakin' awesome would that be?
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The Riddler just sucks, people. That is a TV show character that only worked because of Frank Gorshwin. I say the correct way to proceed is to give Two-Face a movie unto himself, maybe working in a Catwoman sub-plot. Other cool characters might be The Puppet Master and Zsasz (sp?)
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Again, like I said, make him dour and cold, methodical. Riddles aren't by definition jokes. It can be done without acting like Jim Carrey.
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David Tennant would be mindblowing as The Riddler...what a fantastic casting suggestion.
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That movie character only failed because he was played by Jim Carrey as an idiot. The character has had his down appearances (back when he was in an issue of The Question), but the current version in the comics, as a private detective Batman-wannabe, works pretty well.
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98% of the comments and ideas about the next Batman film are bad. You guys are worse than the paid "movie critics" out there. (And believe it or not: I am NOT trolling.)
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i will admit that only having him briefly in TDK was kinda a letdown because i love cillian murphy and i love scarcrowbut its gets me thinking, maybe nolan through him in there for a scene just to let the audience know he's still working to terrorize gotham..perhaps nolan will bring him back as a fuller villian in the third movie..imagine scarecrow teaming up with penguin or catowmani'm also open to haing ra's return..bring a little spirituality to the nolanverse (the imortality was only hinted at never confirmed in begins)
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dark knight was great and better than iron girl, even though i enjoyed both movies. TDK was intense and full of tension between the two rival characters like in Heat. Nolan discovered that batman can only work as a crime film and the realism evoked in the movies are astonishing as its elements consist of non-real things like a bat suit and the league of shadows, etc they only thing that made iron man seem real was the afghan stuff and playboy.
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There is really NO wasted screen time in that movie. It's a very tight script.
"And what about those idiots running around with The Scarecrow...as phony Batmen???" 1) It shows the indelible impression Batman has made on Gotham, enough to embolden people to take action (albeit foolishly)...on the flip side, the Batman spawns whackos like the Joker 2)Later on, the hockey pad wearing 'Batman' is used as a device for the Joker to illustrate this and introduce himself to Gotham. Bottom line: THE SCENE HAD A PURPOSE.
"all we learn of Bruce Wayne's personal life are a few obscure references to Rachel" What else do you need to know about Bruce's personal life that will MOVE THE STORY IN QUESTION forward? What he had for breakfast? His daily workout regimine? Your asking for character details that would do what you claim is already being done...wasting screen time. Plus, the Bruce Wayne charater is already established from the first film.
I just saw it for the second time last Friday...a re release in IMAX. Each scene effectivlely sets up the next though I do believe it gets a bit convoluted with the whole sonar aspect thrown in the 3rd act. -
There will be more fun "Holy Shit" action moments. I loved The Dark Knight, but I was more involved with the story and how it was unfolding that I was with any of the action sequences (which there wasn't really many of them). The only part that made me smile like a kid was when he course corrected the motocycle on the wall. For a film produced for 180 million, Nolan needs to up the action ante for part 3 (without the film devolving into some overblown bullshit).
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Is if they make him really fucking crazy like a cross between Die Hard With A Vengeance and Jigsaw from Saw. No bullshit Jim Carey nonsense. I want to see The Riddler as a terrorist terrorizing Gotham City with his insane puzzles that have dire consequences. Have him hurt Lucius Fox so that he won't be able to help Batman with his gadgets, and that will force Batman to be a real detective instead of using a shenanigans sonar device that allows you to see through walls.
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Seriously that movie lives and dies with Downey's performance. Take him out of the equation and the film is a standard action movie. And I've said it before, and will say it now again, the finale of Iron Man was a big budget remake of the finale of Robocop 2. The Dark Knight is not a convoluted film. It's a really good film (minor plot issues aside).
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and so is everyone else.....It would be nice if he was back, but.....
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SO when did Iron Man become gay all of a sudden? Did I miss something? At least Pepper was a woman, not some old limey butler. And isn't a suit of armor more masculine than rubber?
I will admit Iron Man doesn't have such a big rogue's gallery as Batman has to choose from.
I remember originally thinking that all we'd see of Two-Face would be the " Dent!I Thought You Were Dead...Half." reveal, which would then set him up to be the main villain in the third one. But no..
Warner Bros is gonna go troll the Oscar bait and offer Mickey Rourke a shitload to play Bane.
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was...what I expected and it tone was what I wanted out of a Btman film...but that said NOTHING in the film surprised me or came across as something I hadnt seen before....I saw it, thought it was ok, but while I have the dvd and I have ATTEMPTED to watch it several times, Ican't mange to sit thru it again....Ironman on the other hand has been watched dozens of time,hell I've watched HULK twice...My hope and prayer for the next film, is that while keeping a tone consistent with the first 2 films,the third we be enjoyable-not lightweight- but enjoyable and worth repeated viewing....
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ur right man...people forget here. and i cant believe what people say here sometimes. Nolan replaceable he says, what a retard
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I'm glad that's unsubstantiated because that would be terrible. Sopranos was the single most overrated show of all time. It had one great season and shit turned to shit.
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Not even a post-it with the words "New Batman?" glued to Nolan's computer screen.
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You guys have pron right? You obviously have an ISP! So why the unending need to see a girl in tight black leather cracking a whip in Nolan's Batman? And you actually think it won't be the most out of place thing possible? I'm all over any number of the latest super hotties wearing Trinity's outfit from Matrix but it would be the worst thing possible for Nolan's Batverse. You know it as you will likely respond with "Yeah but I could see how he does it...make her working here and do this or do that". Not going to happen. It would be like trying to keep certain more cartoon like traits like the chemically bleached skin and green hair of the Joker. Catwoman IS almost completely cartoon-like and the only way to make her work is to turn her into "The Fox" from Ocean's 12 (a world famous/infamous and brilliant thief/cat-burgular) but then how does stealing diamonds come into something important in Nolan's verse? Maybe for Freeze's giant-freeze ray that needs a giant diamond to freeze Gotham?Even if you did manage to come up with a plausible and relevant storyline for Catwoman...there's still the issue of casting. How would someone like Jolie NOT be a distraction? I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this as outside of Holmes' Rachel, Nolan's Batverse suffers from a distinct lack of hotties but making a point of Catwoman's beauty would be out of place in this movie...I don't know. For the more popular Batman villains, I think the next logical choice is either Riddler or Penguin. Riddler could initially be a 'copy cat' theory on Joker who then does something else..Penguin could be an international arms dealer but both of those ideas sound boring so...Honestly, it's going to be a tough haul getting a worthy story with worthy villains and then taking the time to make it good. My guess is we'll be seeing "some other director's" Batman 3 enter production within the next 18 months. Or, we'll get lucky...
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I doubt that Michael Uslan and Ben Melnicker have much to do with the Batman franchise, other than collecting paychecks because they are the 2 people that secured the MOVIE (not TV) rights for ALL Characters in the Batman Universe (INCLUDING ANIMATION) but not TV. I don't think they've had much to do with any Batman film after Batman Returns. But they were smart to secure the rights and actually BRING THE PROJECT to WB (as crazy as that sounds -it's true). There are no interviews with them on the Batman Begins or Dark Knight DVDs. Uslan is busy producing stuff like The Spirt and The Shadow. No disrespect to Uslan, he justified the validity of comics by bringing them into the academic spotlight and he's also singularly responsible for getting a the first "Dark Batman Movie" greenlit. But I think his role in Batman is more ceremonial now.
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Was THE DARK KNIGHT too difficult for you to understand? Is that your problem? I mean, I've seen some people talk some bullshit about TDK before but...come on, dude.
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Jan 26, 2009 11:02:48 AM CST
Brett Ratner will direct the next Batman if Nolan keeps...
by leafar the lost
...being an asshole about the money. Everyone in Hollywood is taking a pay cut, and Nolan is no different. Samuel L. Jackson is going to be replaced by Eddie Murphy in Iron-Man 2, just to teach him a lesson. Cat-Woman will be in the next Batman, due to the hint in The Dark Knight. I know everyone wants Angelina Jolie, and I have no problem with it, if she agrees to work cheap. I would only cast Johnny Depp as the Riddler. He kick ass in the role, and he would make it completely different from the Joker.
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Think about it. Do you prefer another GOOD film by Nolan, which is 99% certain, or another forced Batman movie?
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Why? Because, as I said, he put everything into TDK. The guy cannot top that. Why not let someone else take over who can bring in a new approach?
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. . . who really like TDK or Iron Man and hate the other? I must be insane to like both of them.
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Shove off. Seriously. TDK is the seventh film (including West's) made about Batman. Iron Man is the first Iron Man flick - so comparitively, they got Iron Man right quicker than they got Batman right. And all the RDJ made the film talk... yes, he did. They nailed the casting. It wasn't a case of 'let's hire a great actor like Bale and then have him play it so subtle that he's pushed off the screen by the crazy Joker.'
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'Geeks' are insane. TDK rocks, Iron Man rocks - comparing them is like comparing a fork and a knife.
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a dark and serious Dinosaucers movie.
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Apparently, you're not allowed to enjoy both Iron Man AND Dark Knight, Star Wars AND Star Trek, Marvel AND DC. Fan boys love to pick fights and divide people up into camps. It's what they do because they're not having sex.
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Seriously. Don't bother if he's not doing it.
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You can't say Riddler, because he's only ever been a Joker rip-off. There is nothing in the movie to indicate that Two Face is dead, other than a motionless body and a closed casket funeral. Catwoman doesn't plot the end of the world, but she IS fun to watch.
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I'm just sayin'...
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I've always had the feeling that the Nolan bros. don't want to feature a villain in the next movie who has already been depicted in the first four movies. They got to introduce new villains in Batman Begins (Scarecrow and Ra's al Ghul) and I'm betting they want to do that again in their third Bat flick.So I bet it will be Black Mask. Dr. Hugo Strange could show up also, and maybe even Harley (or as Harlen Quinzel). I do see Joker returning, though in a limited capacity -- like sitting in his cell in Arkham, all Lecter-like. (Get Paul Bettany to take over the role.)
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Media Messiah didnt get layed in a long time so his frustrations make him believe that TDK sucked when in fact hes the only one that sucks and also lets not forget that no one sucked his little thing in a very long time and his little thing got rusty from waiting
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Listen up right now. Like all the idiots who claimed Depp should be the Joker and such, it won't work in the Nolan-verse. We're not looking for silly, funny-crazy villians. The Nolan-verse is realistic, dark, gritty and scary.
For another director I can easily see Tennant, but not in this series of films. I could more easily see William H. Macy as an everyman you'd never expect, who commits Zodiac-type killings, who is scary, psychotic, brilliant, and who knows the truth about Batman/Harvey Dent. He teases both Batman and the cops, but he is always one step ahead of both. The story is about the city coming to grips with the truth about Dent, about facing fear and making a decision to decide their own destiny and embrace Batman as their vigilante hero, because a perfect hero doesn't work in Gotham. -
Not only was there a dead body, and a funeral, Eckhart said in interviews he is dead, dead and dead. So yeah, there is nothing to suggest he is really dead.
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The real hero of TDK.
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Iron Man was very good, but TDK was great. There is no shame in enjoying both. I assume most decent geeks, and most reasonable fans of film would enjoy both.
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Give Carrey a second chance. We really don't have any conception of him outside of Frank Gorshin, do we?
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I didn't 'imitate' Nolan, if you read my posts I said bring in someone with a contrasting vision. Someone like Aronofsky, who'd bring something new in. Nolan made two great films, but you 'geeks' have hyped up TDK so much that he has no chance of satisfying you again.
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You know you want it
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I just watched TDK and do not recall any Catwoman hint. Where/when in TDK do you refer?As far as Two-Face being dead? It was Nolan himself who said Two-face was dead (both on the big cheesy BD-Live chat and in more recent interviews). I've also read about how he supposedly doesn't like the idea of Catwoman in his Batman universe.But I'm curious about this hint you mention about Catwoman? (for the record, I do think Catwoman is *possible* but I think every mention from the fanboy base has been in the direction of Burton and not Nolan. If you guys were predicting Joker, you wouldn't twink twice about DC's origin and the normal convention for the character but that is exactly what wouldn't work (in my mind) for Nolan's Batverse. Which is why I believe Catwoman also wouldn't work without so many changes as to make the character "new" and thus extraneous.Personally, I think it was a huge mistake to kill Two-face. And yes, it should have been the start of the 3rd film and it should have done a more convincing portrayal of Harvey's decent into madness/evil (it was a little quick, you have to admit). But if Face is dead...then it's a bit trickier. Depp would make a great Riddler and everybody knows it and that's why we won't get Depp as Riddler.
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That's a ridiculous comment. Again, I'm not saying they have to try and out-Nolan Nolan. I'm saying that they could bring in someone new to do his (or her) vision of Batman for two films... then bring in someone new for the next two after that. Keep it interesting, cut short the potential for burning out.
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it should have ben eliminated all together, have the joker blow up the hospital for another reason. i always hate plots that involve someone finding out a hero's identity it just creates too many problems, like for instance, Reese is obviously not gonna keep his mouth shut, he would have told his wife or a really good friend, plus i'm sure the producers of gotham tonight wanted some confirmation before they just let him go on the air..it just opens too many flooddoors that affect bruce keeping his secret
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Yep, he's campaigning for the role as well. And enderandrew, go watch "Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire". You'll then see what we're talking about.
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Christopher and Jonathan don't want to depict a Bat villain who has already shown up in Batman Returns, Forever, and Batman & Robin. In their next Batman movie, they want to give screen time to villains who not appeared in previous Batman movies. They already appeased the fans with TDK with their takes on Joker and Two-Face. Black Mask and or Hush are ones that immediately come to my mind.
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it's when Morgan Freeman says about the armour that it might protect him against cats. It's reaching though.
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Yes...it could be much worse, that being Joel Schumacher...all I'm saying is, that it could have also been so much better, ala the animated Batman toons in the 90s, that, if Nolan had hit the right emotional beats and trimmed the fat. Batman Begins, in terms of story was much better paced with respect to its dramatic rhythms...but it was still flat, grim, and boring...where as...Dark Knight had a very good opening, that being the bank robbery, and even the ferry boat scene toward the end, and the building scene with the hostages dressed as terrorists, were all done well. Kudos for that. The Problem??? The rest of the movie was not well executed in terms of story and character motivations. If you give an honest look at it...you would agree.
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find someone good and do it. imitate legders joker but make it their own.
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...is to make part 3 even a grittier crime drama. You can't top Ledgers Joker so don't try. In fact bring down the scope, make it more personal, and tell a story that isn't about "gotham" but more about batman on a personal level. Its the only way to follow TDK. You can't top it..so don't bother. Try something else entirely.
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It is slight, but Fox says the suit should hold up cats.
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People automatically fall back to the weak ass "Geek" insult? Some people enjoy different things. I enjoyed The Dark Knight and thought Iron Man was just OK. It's my opinion. I'm not hating one to boost the other because that's some dumb shit. It's like the whole LOTR vs Star Wars debate. I couldn't even sit through either series as I couldn't be bothered with ring chasing elves or futuristic snarfblatts. I know it's hard to understand for most people that their opinions aren't the absolute definitive opinion. But everyone didn't love The Dark Knight. I didn't LOVE it either. But I prefer it to Iron Man. Iron Man was just a decent action film. But that's my opinion.
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The sonar thing was also a side-track moment. All I am saying is...we did not get a chance to know Bruce, Rachel, Alfred...and that is a failure. We didn't even get to see how much Harvey loves Rachel, until her death scene...another failure? A director and writer must first set things up within the story elements to make you care about a character before killer them off. Watch Joss Whedon's Dr. Horrible for instance. Forget about the budget and lack of production values as it was shot in a week for a quarter of a million dollars...but watch how, in 45 minutes, he was able to introduce multiple characters, make you love, and care for them...and then turn your stomach with a sudden twist of tragedy. That is what TDK is missing, true pathos...and a reason to truly have that pathos in the first place!!!
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In the comic-books, when The Riddler discovers Batman's identity the reason he doesn't tell anyone else is because if everyone knows the answer to a riddle it's not a riddle. The Riddler has the power, but if he tells anyone then he loses the power and the only thing that makes him unique.
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Batman standing over Joker working him over in the interogation room, was laughable. What would have worked better is if we saw a glimpse of Batman, then...shadows..and both Joker and Batman are gone, and seen Batman then working him over elsewhere...Guantanamo Bay style...but always from the shadows...because once you see Batman in open light, in that costume, it looks ridiculous...something like being worked over by Barney, The Purple Dinosaur, you just want to laugh.
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Jan 26, 2009 12:13:26 PM CST
I always say..."Tell me, and then TRY to kill me, Motherfucker!"
by cookylamoo
I'd like to see Uslan kill anything but a quart of scotch.
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I came up with a storyline months ago before I saw the film...but Warner and DC would never go for such a reinvention.
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You nerds deserve to have your eyes sewn shut and your ears shot off for the amount of times you've been given exactly what you want out of a movie, and can find nothing to do with it but to continue shitting in your hands and smearing it all over yourselves.
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Whether or not it's a hint depends on how it's interpreted, but it's near the beginning of the film, when he's talking to Luscious about changes to his suit. He asks if it would protect him against dogs (after the dog attack) and one of them says something about cats. I can't remember the details.I'm actually at a stage where I trust the crew behind this film to the extent that they could just make a villain up from scratch if it suits their universe better. I think that Catwoman would be too camp. People might argue that a guy dressing up as a bat is just as bad, but the reason for his existence is dealt with well enough in the previous films (and obviously the Joker, absurd though he may be, is a perfect foil, as ridicule might be the only thing that could penetrate what Batman has established). Maybe Nolan could pull it off if it was nothing like Burton's Catwoman (I know she has her fans, but I wasn't one of them - the scene where she "washes" herself was cringe inducing, as was her smugness for the majority of the film) but I don't think that, thematically, catwoman could offer anything that Batman, the Joker and Two Face haven't already brought to these films with such success.People might claim that Nolan and crew shouldn't mess with canon, and that introducing their own major conflict would be sacrelige, but if people are arguing between a tiny handful of established villains, then maybe the canon deserves to be messed around with.
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'Phoney Batmen running around with the scarecrow'?
You bleeding weirdo, did you watch it with the sound off? The only criticism I have is the same as everyone elses. 2 face was wasted and shouldn't have gone crackers so quickly - they shouldn't have wrapped his story up- he should have just despatched a few baddies unethically and started his descent into madness. -
The Riddler: Daniel-Fuckin-Day-Lewis-
Catwoman: Eva Green
GOLD.
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The Riddler: Daniel-Day Lewis
Catwoman: Eva Green
GOLD!!! -
Farris fucked her face up with those ridiculous lip injections so fuck no! I definitely would put Harley in the flick along with the Joker. Recasting him is not forbidden, alot of people could play the Joker and do it better than Ledger did.
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Give this guy a cee-gar. Black Mask or Hugo Strange would both be perfect villains. Trouble is, lots of dumbasses will only pay to see a villain they've heard of, like the Penguin (who should be played by Patton Oswalt).
I wouldn't mind seeing The Riddler depicted as a not-leaving serial killer, as someone on one of these Batman talkbacks posted months ago... -
1. Physically, he's pretty much a dead-on match.
2. He's finished with DOCTOR WHO at the end of this year and he wants to concentrate on films ($), so he's presumably available.
3. He has the range, from appearing brilliant to being enraged to offbeat eccentricity, as anyone who has watched DOCTOR WHO Series 2 - 4 can readily verify.
4. Chicks dig him, so you don't have to worry about a love interest for Batman to bring them into the theater.
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goddamn no edit function...
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Wayne Manor is back! The nascar best/dragster is back! Massive batcave! Science lab!! They get the archetypal grey and black suit design perfect! Matches Malone is born!! 2Face is not dead! He is in Arkham asylum!! A terrorist is blackmailing the city and state for billions using a series of concerted bomb attacks that are using state of th art tech. The terrorist uses riddles printed in a gotham newspapaer to make his demands. but only The Bat can solve them.......
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Jan 26, 2009 12:37:44 PM CST
JAVIER BARDEM did Two-Face better than Eckhart in...
by leafar the lost
..."No County For Old Men". I wish that Nolan didn't kill Harvey Two-Face at the end of TDK. I know he can be resurrected (the Lazarus Pit) but still...I don't know, TDK was so good it really doesn't matter. Bardem could play the Riddler if Depp says no, and he would do a very good job at it. The next Batman movie needs to have a really good actor give a really good performance in order to live up to TDK. Because of that, WB needs to be willing to pay Depp or Bardem a lot of money to bring their A-game...
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tdk sucked...but the stupid fucking white eye GPS bullshit was as bad as rubber fucking nipples. Batman is screwed because they blew the whole wad on TDK...fuck it, i dont care anyway.
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...to be Riddler. God, that would have been terrible...
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No one would have thought of using Ledger as Joker. Thus proving that fanboy casting is downright useless, pointless, and based solely on the asthetics of the person and not their true ability to act. I think Ledger proved that if you take the "gary oldman" school of acting and dissapear into your character it doesn't matter who you are or what you look like you'll BECOME that character.
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..that Bruce Wayne was the star. Its dissapointing to see Nolans Batman go back to playing second fiddle to the villians. The inability to give Bats a character arc in TDK was pure fail. Part 3 needs to make Batman the star once more. Forget the villian sideshow. Batman needs to be the focus.
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Exactly why I'd prefer a William H. Macy over Tennant as the Riddler.
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are Fucking kidding?-"let's hire a great actor like Bale "when did he become great? try above average at best
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Which is why I want the film to focus on Bruce Wayne overcoming something and not just Batman.
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My only disappointment with TDK, other than the even more incoherent improved shakey cam fight scene, was the lack of 'escalation' promised at the end of Batman Begins.
The reality of Gotham in Begins was a dark and unforgiving city that was just perfectly straddling the reality of Chicago and the brutal nightmare of the comics. I interpreted Gordon's warnings as that that the appearance of Batman in the city would be the final sign that the city had been pushed over that edge into relative insanity.
In TDK though, it turned out to be the complete opposite. Gotham was Chicago. And aside from the guy in the cape (who is still barely a genius, master sleuth, nor master athlete), it was a by the books police drama.
Joker sort of felt like 2 steps forwards, 1 step beck since he was so wonderfully bat-shit insane and flamboyant as he should always be, but the overwhelming need to anchor the film in a 'serious reality' became just that, and sort of dragged on the potential of what the Joker could really be; Ra's Al Ghul shouldn't have a more extravagant M/O and master plan than the Joker when you think about it.
That's not to say I think Nolan's take on Batman is "wrong". I like his take so far as much as others, but its become pretty apparent that he wants to stick to the 'realistic' approach which is pigeon-holing the character. With this approach, its clear that at least half of Batman's most notable characters are on the chopping block. And the lack of an extraordinary world populated by extraordinary people give less reason for Batman to develop into the 'super-man' he's supposed to be.
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as the penguin...
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So the people who claim that a third Batman film is not needed, are complete idiots. A third Batman film has to be made. Yes, "TDK" was very much a masterpiece within it's own field, and has truly taken superhero adaptations to a whole new level. But it doesn't mean that it's the high mark for superhero/comic-book films, and "TDK" should not be the last Batman film, because of that cliffhanger. Things need to come to a more satisfying conclusion, and I hope Christopher Nolan and his brother won't fall under that trilogy curse, and fuck up the third installment. Because it can happen, no matter how great you are.
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Are you joking?? The theme of escalation was completely explored, because everything escalated. Everything got worse, and the heroes in "TDK" did not get away clean, and completely suffered at the end. Gordon lost his partners, and had to witness his family being terrorized. Harvey Dent and Batman lost the woman that they loved, and Batman also had to witness his partner become the villain. And he even had to kill Harvey, in order to save Gordon's son.
Everything escalated, and things simply got worse, and worse, and worse. And Nolan's attempt to make Batman more realistic, and less of a comic-book, was the perfect fit for a character as realistic as Batman. -
Why can people not take the middle of the road approach on this site? A movie is either the worst piece of garbage ever made or it was genius and everybody in it deserves an Oscar. Iron Man was good, can't see anybody but Downey making it the huge hit it was. TDK was probably the best superhero movie ever made, but how many gems are in that pile? I think, considering the situation Batman put himself in at the end of TDK, that the third installment will center more on him.
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You're definitely right on those points and argue with you there. What I was trying to say, poorly, was mainly that in addition to the 'escalation' of circumstance, I was also expecting an escalation in the tone and reality of world that these characters are occupying (that's still probably not the best phrasing for it). I do appreciate Nolan's 'realism', but I think that a slavish approach to grounding batman in 'reality' will betray the true potential of the character, and what I think is his greatest strength- which is his malleability. As Frank Miller said before he became "Frank Miller TM": 'You can write Batman 100 different ways and they'd all be correct". I'm not pining for a Schumacher/Burton Batman, but I just want Nolan and Co. to be more open towards all the story possibilities that the character's world has, and which they might miss out on. There's no reason why we can't have a great Mr. Freeze, Robin, Clayface, or Poison Ivy on screen without 'Nolanizing them' and extensively striping them of the fantastic qualities they have. That way Nolan could should the world how Batman works as a great Noir/Fantasy/Sci-Fi/Pulp character as well as a crime one.
Sorry for the rambling nature of my posts. -
Jan 26, 2009 1:56:55 PM CST
Media Messiah, like most people who claim to be a messiah...
by bob cryptonight
...you only prove yourself to be a jackass. The film being too long? Maybe. Some wasted opportunities? Maybe...but you have to pick what you want to focus on and go with it (and it's definitely NOT Bruce Wayne's personal life). This film is amazing because no one could have seen how close to a true-crime thriller Nolan was going to make it, especially after BEGINS. In absolutely NO WAY could this film be boring on a first viewing. No way. Unless you are one of those guys who talks and fidgets throughout his movies...
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Jan 26, 2009 2:07:13 PM CST
Just once I wish they'd actually "Tell them" and then "Kill Them
by yotzvonfrelnik
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TDK was good, but might have been so much better with just a little tweaking. Maybe a better vocal coach for Bale? I thought it was good. Personally, I enjoyed it less than the first movie. Therefore I find it ironically appropriate that the comparisons to Godfather 2 are somewhat apt. Godfather was a great movie I've watched repeatedly over the years. Godfather 2? A good solid movie, but a falls short of greatness. TDK wasn't a film about Bruce Wayne, so I felt it fell short of first film standard. I actually enjoyed Iron Man, and even Hulk a little more because of the intense personal performances.
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'The Dark Knight' wasn't even a Batman movie. The "world's greatest detective" didn't detect shit. The "caped crusader" barely fought any crime...And when he did you couldn't SEE it because of the shitty action choreography and terrible camera work. The opening scene was arresting, but after that? Bale's "I gotta dookie" voice? Did Ledger really embody the spirit or characterization of The Joker (The Joker prior to say 1995, I have no idea what the asinine comic creators have done with the character since) to any of you? He was a piss-poor rehash of Tadanobu Asano in 'Ichi the Killer,' which in this case would make his portrayal of Kakihara a more authentic "Joker," and that's kinda sad when think about it. Why did Gotham look like downtown Los Angeles (it didn't look that way in 'Batman Begins') all of a sudden? Love interest? Why? Super bat cell-tower sonar vision? Really? The pointless false tension involving the rigged-to-explode ferry boats and the day-saving antics of Deebo/Zeus? Da fuck? And they assfucked Two Face entirely. I left the theatre angry and I'm still angry. There's a reason this thing isn't nominated for a best picture Oscar. And Ledger's posthumous award-nabbing can easily be explained by his untimely demise. Fuck this movie and fuck a sequel. It's time to hand the character off to another creative team who understands Batman, his rogues gallery and the world they inhabit who isn't obsessed with hyper-realism that just makes the whole thing seem even more cartoonish. Let somebody else take a crack at it and start it all over from the beginning.
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...and yes that's a stretch to some extent but I still think Catwoman is an almost impossible fit for the Nolan Batverse.Blindambition238, you make some great points but ultimately I think if Nolan starting using the more, for lack of better words, flamboyant Batman characters, it will take away from the most important part, the story itself. Particularly with a Robin or a very specific villain like Mr. Freeze.I honestly think Nolan is going to look at the possible storylines and very likely conclude there is no where else to go. I don't think the solution is to find the perfect villain but to find the perfect story and develop a villain within it. Someone else mentioned creating a villain and while I'd welcome it, you know the diehards won't.But this talk of escalation is a good one. If it's a theme for the next one (and not just an excuse to have bigger explosions) then the next villain has to have plans not unlike the Gotham destroying Ra's Al Ghul from BB. Unless you take it more psychological...You guys can love or hate TDK and love or hate the bits and pieces but I feel good about Nolan if for nothing else that he has proven not to be a fucking hack (Ratner, Tim Story, McG, lookin directly at YOU currently).Like Raimi, he's capable of not firing on all cylinders but his work in the past has given our beloved heroes much owed respect and faith in not only the super heroes but the comic books fans as well.Read about Donner and the making of Superman: The Movie. They were so dead set on NOT mocking the character but yet that seemed to be the measure of the day from everybody not directly involved in production. We get people like that who also happen to be talented...then how is that a bad thing? They might wind up with shite but they also might give us a kick ass flick!Speaking of which...did you guys know that the f/x guy actually built up a batsuit from TDK that actually had nipples that costuming gave to Bale as a joke? We are not the only ones who know the curse of bat-nips...oh no...not at all.
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New Hope = Batman Begins... great start, stands well on its own. Empire Strikes Back = Dark Knight... amazing sequel (arguably better than the original) that expands the characters and raises the stakes, ends with everyone fucked up. Unfortunately, there's rarely a satisfying way to followup that kind of movie. I think they might be screwed. Oh well, at least we got two awesome Bat flicks out of it.
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I have a feeling that Talia is going to be a love interest/baddie in this one either out to revenge her lost daddy, or, possibly working for him in some way. Nolan's 3rd will be his last, there won't be a 4th with him, he's got too much integrity, so there will be a) references to the first, and Talia guarantees this and b) anything else he wants in there for Nolan's last hurrah.
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If you cut Batman out of the movie, and look at all the other footage of the film, you have no film...and that is the problem with Nolan trying to make a true crime thriller, he forgot to supply the meat elsewhere...when and where Batman is not Batman...and when and where there is no Batman...and at points when he is only Bruce Wayne. I don't need to make personal attacks against you to make my views understood...but you and others seem to need to use the tactic of personally assailing others because you have little to your arguments?
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Been reading some of his posts above and I have to say I don't agree with one single point he has tried to make. I mean he keeps ranting on about TDK having no beef to its story when clearly it has. Its like a Greek tragedy for fucks sake! Also the movie doesn't spend enough time delving into Wayne's personal love life when we clearly got that from Begins. The thing is, you just know if Nolan did choose to weigh a "comic book" movie down with an drawn out and lets face it, unnecisarry love triangle, that twat would be straight on here moaning like a little girl because they didn't show enough of The Batman/Joker. Oh and another thing, this talkback topic is about a possible 3rd Bat flick so I expect some positive views on that and not negative views on its predecessor which I might add was a fucking excellent picture.
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Dark Knight sucks? Let's hope your precious Avatar dosen't get too mainstream-popular, fanboys!
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...and that is the intentional irony of my adopted name. I am here to provoke irony, and to allow you to throw your sticks and stones at me...even as you stand in your glass hypocritical houses. That is the purpose of a martyr...to dare to be different and force change through action. Before I started speaking up about the negatives of The Dark Knight, few people here on this web site felt they were allowed to speak their minds and their true thoughts on the film. The same being true, of Indy 4, Speed Racer, The Matrix sequels, the Star Wars prequels, Superman Returns, The Hulk, etc. I was the first poster to slam them all, you all know me under 2 other web names since retired, where I made my points. Took the hits and played martyr, allowing others to feel free to truly support these films because they really like or love them...or to say, "You know, there are others out here that don't like these movies, and if they can speak up and take the hits, so can I? I won't be bullied by lynch mob mentality stoked by active "studio plants" or fans moved by hype or popular opinion. I have a truth to speak, and I am going to speak it. Trying to fit in, be damned...and trying to go along, to get along...be damned also!!!"If you wish to be a Stepford Wife, please continue to do so, you are doing a fine job of it...but if you wish to think outside of the box...you are free to do that also...and if you don't know how...just follow in the footsteps of a Messiah, one built of irony and truth...or just B.S.???
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The love triangle was implied by the filmmakers, not me...therefore, if you want to properly inform the audience that Bruce Wayne really loves Rachel, and she him...for them, the audience, to feel it when Rachel dies, you have to show that love in action, on screen...or not bring it up to begin with.
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I have to disagree with you when you say that those characters would take focus away from 'the story' since I see those characters as being the source for them just as much as the joker was in TDK. Every Batman villain has accumulated at least one great story in the comics since their inception which in turn makes for a great Batman story since they each bring out a certain aspect of his character and his development as a hero.
Also, this would be a good time for me to point out my general confusion as to why everyone, especially Nolan, is explicitly against Robin appearing. Ok, maybe not confusion, since I understand their perception of the character, but really, as anyone whose followed Batman comics even casually since the 80s could probably agree, Robin would provide the most significant story potentials and character development for the Batman, if handled correctly, which I think Nolan is more than capable of doing.
The only hard part is the timing sotrywise (he should be introduced when Bats is at his most sullen and ruthless state) and casting (picking a credible kid or teenager). -
When Harvey goes to the bar after the explosion and shouts "HALF!!!" press pause immediately. There is a frame of him in profile with his erect cock HALFway in Catwoman's mask. There it is, genius at work. Just sayin'.
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Along with my prediction that the next villain(s) will not be anyone who has already appeared in the original Batman movies, I think there could be an event in the third Nolan movie which will go against the traditional Batman comic book continuity. Let me explain: In Batman Begins, they burned Wayne Manor to the ground. Of course, it may be rebuilt for the third film, but it's possible they won't rebuild at all.In TDK, Two-Face was killed off. Thus, this character will not have an ongoing presence throughout the Bat-Nolan continuity.So I predict that for the third movie, the Nolan bros. may introduce another element that veers from the standard continuity of the Batman comics. Nothing is set in stone now, probably, but I wonder if they may be considering something radical. What could it be? Brace yourselves: Killing off Alfred. Yes, I do think this possibility is on the table.
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TDK was a fantastic film and you have an opportunity here to really cut loose. You made the 2nd highest grossing film of all time with a lot of positive feedback from both fans and casual moviegoers. 2011 almost seems too soon for this to be released... however there is a sure fire way to make this next film even better and its right in front of you..
Adapt The Dark Knight Returns... simple as that... hell, cherry pick the fuck out of it and most of us would be happy with that. Give us a fucked up Gotham, a real vigilante Batman stripped down to his core elements. No more goddamned 3D displays or sonic cellphones. Just Batman, a rope and a batarang... that it. Well, that and a kick ass batmobile. Even Robin is tolerable in TDKR. Have him beat the ever-loving shit out of Superman. Give us Catwoman, not some goofy DA Assistant. Bruce Wayne does...not...care about finding "love", he cares about crimefighting...thats IT!
And stop evacuating Gotham City in every movie! Batman is not Superman. He doesn't have to save the whole damn city every time. One thing that has always been great about Batman is that some of his best stories can derive from him simply saving a single person. Tone it down a bit.
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But you might be full of shit.Curious...what were your 2 other web names? Perhaps knowing this might shed a little light on your current AICN posting streak.
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Presumably the project will return Nolan, Goyer & Co. (who've indicated they're already shaping workable story ideas for a third Bale-BAT adventure), although nothing should be seen as set in stone until former announcements are made.
"Former" announcements?
For fucks sake, no wonder the rest of the interwebs consider this site a joke...
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Sorry, but the obligatory AICN version of Jeff Albertson was already fulfilled by J.J. Binks for Prez (aka Jeff Alberston, etc.). Long may he reside in the Land of the Banned.
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Jan 26, 2009 4:25:11 PM CST
simon pegg as funny but ugly man innoway involved in batman
by ironic_name
idiots who think cats means something: wayne said how will it hold up against dogs, so by your logic dogwoman will show up first.also he talked about bats after he made the suit in BB so why wasn't manbat in the next one? oh thats right BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FORESHADOW SHIT!
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And I apologize for calling you a twat, you seem like a decent chap. The thing is we (the audience that is) already knew that Bruce loved Rachel from the first film. Remember at the end of Begins, Rachel tells him that as long as he chooses to be Batman they have no chance of ever having a relationship in that way. So that's on Wayne's mind right into the start of TDK. Remember when Alfred asks him if he is checking dent out or Rachel? Alfred fucking knows and that small exchange was enough for me to realize that Wayne was still hung up about her. So when half way through the movie Wayne begins to think that perhaps Dent can become the new saviour of Gotham he confronts Rachel and repeats what she said to him at the end of the first film. It was enough, I got it, It didn't need anymore. But each to their own I suppose.
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I know we are into a very gritty, reality based Batman right now and I loved the two movies, but what if we showed Batman that there are more mystical things out there. I've always loved that element of the Batman mythos. I'd love to see Batman in a spooky Kelly Jonesesque swamp tracking down clues for some crime or other and run into the Swamp Thing. Batman wants to put fear and horror into criminals, let's have him face some mystical fear (not Scarecrow gas).
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What else is there to tell in this saga? It would mean using an older actor instead of Bale, who's good, but do a finale of the trilogy like that would make it one for the ages, instead of stringing us along with some more villain tales. It would play well off the ending of TDK where Batman is now a villain. Of course I never would have predicted Heath Ledgers as a mind-blowing Joker, so I may be wrong about the next villain(s) they have up their sleeve...but let's hope they're not on the level of Two-Face.
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Meant to say "regarded as a villain by the citizens"
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They killed off rachael to make room for catwoman. bats will get to feel all conflicted about rebounding with a criminal. Eva Green should play her british. come here to make her fortune. hell, she's a cat burglar, she should break into wayne manor and discover he's batman. then she can spend the film toying with him... holding his secret over his head. lots of great drama there. make the major arc that he's being hunted because everyone thinks he's a bad guy and in the end he has to decide to bust his girl. that's my 2 cents.
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Have two great villains fighting over each for Gotham. Now Batman's a wanted man, Gotham is left wide open and every criminal wants a piece. These two villains rip Gotham apart through fighting with each over. Batman's in the middle of it all trying to restore order but his job isn't made easy by most of the cops in the GPDP who still want blood for the crimes he he never committed. At the same time all of this is kicking off and Gotham is burning, The Joker is sat in his padded cell at Arkham laughing his ass off. (a small cameo using today's technology is possible)..RIP Heath. Anyway at the end of all this shit, Batman saves Gotham and redeems himself. The final shot sees Gordon turning the Bat signal back on with a cut to Batman standing on top of a tall building with the signal in the clouds behind him. The name of this would be Batman Redeemed.
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Jan 26, 2009 5:12:06 PM CST
DKR would be good 15 years from now with Nolan and Bale...
by thecomedian
...returning to the property. Then it would be a real sequel to TDR. But doing it now with an older actor would just confuse the hell out of audiences since The Dark Knight was such a monster hit you'd lose people by explaining that it's an alternate reality based off a comic from the 80s and not a direct sequel.
All they have to do in the next sequel is establish that Harvey is Alive in Arkham, introduce Catwoman as the sexy tag along wannabe who he briefly takes on as a partner embracing his status as an outlaw until he has a wake up call because someone else gets killed or something and then he finally finds his redemption by realizing he's a hero etc. Throw in anyone but The Riddler or the Penquin(maybe bring back Ra's)and give the film an identity and feel of it's own just like TDK felt different from BB.
If Watchmen does big box office they're probably going to give Zack Snyder Justice League so if he can talk Bale into playing Batman then having Superman in a DKR movie 15 years from now won't be so awkward.
Then 15 years from now Bale and Nolan can come back with Harvey, Catwoman, The Joker, Carrie Kelly (in this continuity she can be the 1st and only Robin so there's no homo), The Mutants and Superman and tell the TDKR the right way. -
Its late here in England. Anyway the idea Iam trying to put forward is, When we get two villain's in these types of movies, they always seem to team up against the hero. Apart from the fact that its unrealistic its fucking silly. I would love to see Two villain's fighting each other and in turn each fighting Batman in their own individual way. The only victim would be Gotham itself that's why when Batman finally saves day he saves Gotham thus redeeming himself.
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I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the next film followed a similar path. And I have every bit of confidence that Nolan & Co. can bring about a third installment that will tie this version of the franchise up quite nicely.Three things that should definitely happen in the 3rd film:1) With the rebuilding of Wayne Manor complete, we will finally get to see a fully equipped Bat Cave.2) An even further improved Bat Suit. (Although, I imagine it will have to be gray tights with a blue cape/cowl in order to satisfy the uber-Batman geeks who still sleep in their Batman pajamas.)3) A killer reveal of the all new Batmobile. The demise of the Tumbler will bring about the ultimate in geek-car-fetishism the likes of which even Michael Bay couldn't dream up!
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You remember me well. But I have learned 2 things today...1) Most people are scum, as I came to believe several years ago...but I didn't want to accept it. And 2)...there are some nice people still left in this world...and God Bless them, really.
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Well, I'd like to believe that I fall into that second group...Come on. Who were you before?
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When a movie you make earns over $1 billion worldwide, not including merchandising and DVD sales, I think it's safe to say you're calling the shots.
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...Alfred." I may be wrong here, so feel free to correct me, but didn't we get a solid 2 hours devoted to getting to know those three in Batman Begins. You are aware that TDK is a SEQUAL, right? No need to re-establish the characters. Thats called being reptitive and boring, troll man.
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My comments come from the stand point of, say...what if a person...if watching TDK cold, not having seen the previous film...and with the change in dynamic, thanks to the recasting of Rachel, as well as the fact that even in the first film, Rachel and Bruce were rather distant...for audiences, I think the simple tweak of adding 20 pages in order to open up that relationship on screen, 1 page counting for 1 minute of screen time, would have really solidified much for me regarding the more human side of Bruce Wayne and the love he shared with Rachel. Again...please watch Dr. Horrible. Although limited in budget, it is very interesting what Joss Whedon pulled off dramatically in 45 minutes, complete with the sucker punch ending he delivered, one that stunned a lot of people, and shook them.
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Gaius...I'd like to believe that you fall into the second group also, but I have had one too many surprises of late...to chance it, but the old days were fun weren't they, old friend???
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You must be a troll, because a passage like this CANT be real; "w your sticks and stones at me...even as you stand in your glass hypocritical houses. That is the purpose of a martyr...to dare to be different and force change through action. Before I started speaking up about the negatives of The Dark Knight, few people here on this web site felt they were allowed to speak their minds and their true thoughts on the film. The same being true, of Indy 4, Speed Racer, The Matrix sequels, the Star Wars prequels, Superman Returns, The Hulk, etc. I was the first poster to slam them all, you all know me under 2 other web names since retired, where I made my points."
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Jan 26, 2009 5:40:22 PM CST
Messiah is stupid enough to = MOM or Blade Runner Unit...
by whinynegativebitch
...But his spelling is too good. Maybe he's running his retardation through a spell checker first.
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Throw Batman in Arkham Asylum. Main "villains" are the Riddler, Hugo Strange, and the faintest tease of Scarecrow, Joker, and a few random losers like the Ventriloquist. Dr. Hugo Strange wants to "erase" Batman and "save" the man in the mask. Dr. Edward Nygma, working under Strange, has more sinister intentions.
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Other than Watchmen! There should be a new Superman or a Green Lantern or a Wonder Woman movie planned for this summer. WB, you are fucking lame! You should have these movies lined up just like Marvel has! You've got the characters lined up! You should not be this fucking bad about making movies true to the characters!
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I’ve said it before: a Riddler/Talia al Ghul match-up would make a great conclusion to Batman’s preceding confrontation against League of Shadows/Joker, which has thus far brought to the fore the perpetual problem of man’s struggle against the duality of good and evil, not to mention the role of fear in instigating action (for good or for bad). But some things remain unresolved. Take Ra’s claim: "We sacked Rome, loaded trade ships with plague rats, burned London to the ground." Well, why Gotham? And why should we think that an organization that has existed this long could be terminated by the death of one man?
To begin with, I think that the role of Gotham needs to be placed in a larger geo-political context, otherwise the League of Shadow’s concern with its “fall into decadence” will not be warranted. In other words, what is it about Gotham that makes it so special – so important, that it would give way to the elementary struggle between good and evil? Such questions could serve as a great plot device with which to introduce “the Riddler”, who would then manipulate Batman into various quests intended to dislocate his psyche by demonstrating him to be the very tool that will bring about the inevitable downfall of Gotham. One way to do this could be to remind him that Batman is essentially not that different from the Joker (I’m thinking of the “one bad day” thesis of “The Killing Joke”) – may in fact need what he represents, in order to justify his own choices – and could even use the ambiguity concerning the Joker’s origin (maybe by presenting himself as the source of the Joker’s embrace of anarchy) as a way to make Bruce question his own choice to use fear (and a Bat costume). After all, this battle of his against the ‘forces of darkness’ he presumes are eating Gotham from the inside, was itself indirectly incited by the death of his own parents. Of course, the Riddler would not know this.
My idea would therefore be to bring back the League of Shadows – presumably with Talia al-Ghul as their new leader – in order to bring to a close Batman’s own origins. After all, it was Ra’s al-Ghul who nurtured Bruce’s fears, showing him how to use them as a source of strength against his foes. Similarly, Bruce will have to confront the fact that it was his own fear of bats, triggered during a performance of Arrigo Boito’s ‘Mefistofele’, that indirectly led to his parent’s death at the hands of one of Gotham’s own ‘sick souls’. So, if his presence and actions are itself the root cause for the escalation in violence and lunacy being adopted by people willing and capable of matching wits with him, then it is obvious that he will eventually have to realize that even the ‘symbolic’ death that he accepts at the end of the last movie – by becoming a “Dark Knight” – will not be enough. The Riddler could then represent an escalation of the “Joker/Trickster/Mephistopheles” motif. But he could also represent the deep-seated and hubristic desire of Bruce/Batman to single-handedly eradicate all evil from Gotham in the form of a quest that ends with the fundamental paradox of the human soul: the primordial choice that determines the a posteriori distinction between good and evil.
My idea would then be to have the League of Shadows as the mastermind behind the Riddler. This could by done by introducing Talia. It would also be a great way of ending this incarnation of Batman: not only because she is the daughter of Ra’s, but because she represents an organization that has been attempting to do throughout history pretty much the same thing Bruce is attempting to do with Gotham, only by different means. In fact, this difference demonstrates how subtly the choice “to do good” could lead to diametrically opposed paths, just as Gotham, and other unforeseen circumstances, could have produced Batman and the Joker. Needless to say, even the confrontation between Talia and Bruce/Batman will need to be resolved. Preferably this would involve the realization that their antagonism is unsustainable. By then the Riddler could have decided to take matters on to his own hand; not only would this validate his role as an uncontrollable experiment (he could come to this conclusion by solving one of his own riddles: e.g. “who am I?”), it would in turn reveal the League of Shadows as a paradigm of an ‘unbound Prometheus,’ just like Frankenstein, Faust, Prometheus, and yes, Lucifer the ‘light-bringer’ himself – themes that tie-in with Bruce/Batman himself.
Of course, not even the resolution of Batman’s confrontation with Talia and the Riddler will be able to eradicate the fundamental problem of evil (which would necessarily produce a dystopia, aka “Eden”). Which is good, since I’d like this series to continue without regurgitating the same super-hero tropes that have bogged down this genre for so long. So even if Nolan doesn’t continue after this movie (and I’d like someone else to have the chance to bring their own vision as well), this ending should nevertheless allow for a continuation of some kind. Personally, I like the idea of having Gordon’s son become Robin, and him assuming crime-fighting responsibilities after the death of Batman (yes, I think he has to die one way or another, though this could just mean that he hangs up the cape and mask for good). The symbolism of the Bat needs to give way to a more hopeful image, which a Robin certainly is (but yeah, why a Robin, eh?). However, I do think that the clash between Batman and Talia could culminate in a relation between the two (which could lead to their own fall as well), producing a child. This boy could then grow up, under the tutelage of Robin (who would in turn embody his father’s respect for law with Batman’s combat and detective skills), and possibly resume the Batman identity when it becomes necessary once again. Both the story of Robin and the new incarnation of Batman should therefore be taken up by a new director, building up on Nolan’s work thus far (so as to forestall any near-future temptations to simply ‘reboot’ the whole story once again).
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your journal article is too long TOO LONG!
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I emailed Harry some of what I remembered from the chat (and nearly got in a lot of trouble for it with my school; I emailed Usler to apologize and he sent a very nice response; nice guy). I seem to remember (it's been a good 7-8 years by now, so don't quote me) that my impression was he was still involved with the movie series (contrary to someone else's comments in an earlier post). He did point out that each of the four Burton-Schumacher movies each reflected a different decade of Batman. Interesting, although I think he longer for the darker vs. thee campy (than again, is anyone really pounding their chest over "Batman and Robin?") Anyway, good to hear he's still involved.
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he's immortal anyway...and his daughter Talia would be an awesome female lead!
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You're killing me here! If I have surprised you, it may be because your recent posts (conspiracies/TDK) have been somewhat out of left field. As I'm sure you've experienced, they demand a response!I would be shocked to find you were someone like Ringbearer9, MinasTirithII, or GingerTwit. Even more so if you turned out to be Elvis Cole Lives or someone to that effect...So, come on man, don't be coy! Who was it?
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Theres very little chance of them topping TDK, so they shouldn't even try. They should just focus on rounding the trilogy out nicely. I almost don't want to suggest anything. Of course, Catwoman comes to mind...
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...doesn't fit in this case. That guy worships the ground Nolan walks on. And MM's grammar and spelling are light years ahead of our favorite troll from Portugal.
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I have a hard time envisioning this version of Batman taking on a conventional car to be the next Batmobile. Nor do I see him continuing to use the Batpod (which really strikes me as a temporary-use, escape vehicle from the Tumbler). The Tumbler really made a strong impression in the first two films -- it became a character onto itself. So maybe they will hold off on giving Batman a new ride in the next film.Overall, my prediction is that for the next movie, the Nolan brothers are more interested in re-examining the entire mythos of Batman. They are not interested in re-doing, or offering their take on the popular villains seen in the previous movies (e.g. Penguin, Riddler, Poison Ivy, Catwoman, etc.). Nor are they interested in giving us new Bat-toys (like, another Batmobile). They are interested in re-examining what it means for the main character, Bruce Wayne, to continue to be Batman in this next stage in his career as a vigilante/protector of Gotham. So questions like "what would happen to him if he lost Alfred?", "how would he deal with the mob if they had their own masked freak -- a la Black Mask?", "is Batman still Batman without all the gadgets, the Batmobile, the Batsignal, etc.?"I believe these are the creative questions and themes that interest the Nolans the most. Not whether they can cast Johnny Depp as The Riddler. So what I'm saying it: Be prepared to see what you know of Batman to be up-ended in the next chapter.
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He's no genius. He did a competent job with the two films, but they were FAR from perfect. Choppy editing, for one thing. I chalk that up to Nolan not shooting enough coverage to make the editing go smoother. There are plenty of directors who could do as good or better than Nolan. I've never liked all the fanboy fawning over Nolan. The mere fact that BB and TDK were Batman films were enough to make fans predisposed to loving the movies unconditionally and uncritically. All Nolan had to do, really, was not fuck it up. That's all. He just had to do a serviceable job. In my mind, that's all he did. Notice how much he (admittedly) borrowed from Michael Mann's "Heat", but those bits still paled in comparison. I'd be happier if Michael Mann directed the next Batman movie. At least Mann has a good sense of "cool" and pacing. Get rid of Nolan, or AT LEAST get rid of his editors. I liked TDK a lot, but it could have been SO much better. There were so many things about it that needed polishing, rewriting, or reshooting. It was a good first or second draft, but desperately needed an objective eye to finish it.
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go jerk of to CNN u asshole. better yet dont say nothin cuz it wont do u right
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It almost felt like they were setting it up that the next Batmobile will be a fast black sports car and not a cumbersome urban assault vehicle.
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Being "tight-lipped" isn't a hint, its.... well.... nothing!
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that happened to the batman franchise. he doesnt need it really its not like hes gonna chase someone.
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For fuck sake SHUT UP! Racheal was a fucking stupid ass character that did absolutely nothing. As far as I'm concerned (and I dont think I'm alone) she NEVER should have been in any of the Batman films. Studios need to understand that in all the years batman has been in print, he has been involved with a handful of women and never EVER did they convince him he should give up being Batman just to get some pussy. Catwoman, Talia and recently Black Canary...uh... anyone else remember another? And the chick from MOTP doesn't count.
Go watch The Notebook, Messiah if you want romance. It is pointless to dwell too much on characterizing Bruce. We have decades of comics that already do that. We get it already. -
Batman was very much depicted as a detective in both films. In BATMAN BEGINS he was shown many times doing surveillance, which is the backbone of real detective work. In THE DARK KNIGHT he was shown working with face recognition software, as well as the high tech "bullet reconstruction" scene. Again, DETECTIVE WORK. I know some of you morons wanted to see him with a beaker in his hands, but this is not CSI:Gotham. So please, kindly STFU already.
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No seriously. If they had listened to the comic book nerds (and I'm a nerd too) before they made Batman Begins they would of had Mr. Freeze, Bane, Man-Bat, or friggin' Killer Moth as the villains. They would of thrown in every nerd, fanboy fantasy ("We've got to have Cassandra Caine as Batgirl in it!" "We need to have Clayface in it!") instead of an attempt to make a realistic Batman film. I had a lot of faults in the films, but they are still better than what some of the people here want (no, we don't need to have Solomon Grundy or a guest-starring Superman).
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Racheal was important because she was 'the girl', something needed in every film or else the movie would be gay. plus she was the damsel in distress. but she was poorly concieved throughout and honestly i wouldve liked someone else to play here for both movies. that chick from Bones wouldve been a better choice.
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dont listen to us, same thing goes for star wars nerds, what we want will suck because we are shortsighted and blinded by our obsessions
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Thanks for agreeing.
You weren't kidding. You are obsessed with fruit. -
Feel free to comment on the Dark Knight and future Batman projects all you want. I understand it is fun and lets you blow off steam. I just don't want Nolan to read or listen to any of the ideas or suggestions (including mine).
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If WB wants to get Superman out of the clusterfuck Singer created, they need to bring him into the Batman series and relaunch him. The two of them in one film would be enough to DESTROY any and all box office records and we all know it.
The funny thing is, i absolutely HATE HATE HATE Superman. I've always hated him. I think he's cheap and has no drama or personality. An indestructible man fighting crime is so fucking boring it makes me want to cry. However, I've always loved the dynamic that exists between Batman and Superman. What was the point of the whole Batman vs. Superman poster in I Am Legend if their not going to do it? Fuck JLA ok? Forget that pipe dream and just give us this one epic, well made and we will never complain about these movies ever again. You could make "Batman Sucks Off A Donkey" afterward and we'll still be smiling. -
"something needed in every film or else the movie would be gay..."
You're kidding right? I can't even begin to tell you just how fucking retarded that comment was. Please, please PLEASE go die in a fire. -
i'll take you down with me
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is total bullshit. he cant handle the heat, where are you, i wanna tell u how much of an ass u are.
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he aint gonna read anything here, hes enjoying the good life right now.
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i have no idea how superman made it into mainstream hollywood films but it needs to be pornified instantly.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...gasp...
AAAHHHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahHAHAHhahahaHAHAHAHhahaha
hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHhahahhahahhahahAHAHAHHAHA...
thanks for the laugh, douche. -
only chickenfuckers hate TDK.
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that was scary man, whats up with, are u loco man? dont be a chickenfucker like our friend Media Messiah here.
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unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.
see you in hell buddy. Say hello to ringbearer9 for all of us when you get there. -
Stabbing people in the eyes with his umbrella blade, running corporate and street crime like a maestro, fucking freaky European super-models. Deniro??
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I LOVE the Sopranos, but I highly doubt WB is going to hand over the series to a TV guy.
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Caped Crusader for the new Willenium.
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if you tone down his powers - the way bruce timm did in the cartoon series. he can't go into space w/out a suit, can stop a plane or train but struggles to do so! a large force can kill him, not just kryptonite. use these ideas and it makes him a hell of a lot more interesting of a character!
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different...and Suchet could be easily more menacing than Phillip Seymour Hoffman. Personally I think they'd make a mistake if they DIDN'T use other familiar Bat villains in the next movie, because like it or not THAT'S what people want to see, and not giving it to them would be like making a Superman movie where he never has a bad-ass monster to fight--ask Bryan Singer how THAT went down. They tried a Batman movie with no memorable villains, it was called Batman Begins, and look how including an iconic villain in the follow up blew that away? Though I think they have to be equally careful not to let the franchise descend once again into parade of over-acting stars playing the latest sideshow heavy, I think the people demanding that there be no familiar villains in the next one are just wrong. I'd most like to see Catwoman, and I'd love to see the corruption of Harley Quinn in a sub plot. I think Penguin desperately needs a retool, if Lex Luthor can be the brilliant super villain for the ages then the Penguin can be more than just some silly-looking little man. I'd love to see Superman too actually, just to prove that Nolan's take on Batman isn't confined by this "real world" horseshit. But I don't know what to do about that Super-franchise. The only thing I don't want them to throw out is the John Williams music. Anyone who wants that to go away can suck it.
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Oh Yeah we can!
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Dr. Daniel Jackson will be in Stargate Universe!
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Jan 26, 2009 9:20:12 PM CST
Charlie Hunnam should replace Heath Ledger as The Joker!
by barry_woodward
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My case for the theme of the “ Fall of Man from the Garden of Eden” in the movies: In the beginning of Batman Begins Rachel sparks Bruce’s curiosity by showing him something he found in “his” garden (Bruce’s youth is here already characterized by pride and arrogance). He takes it and runs, literally falling into a hole. In the next scene we find him older and far from home, but the transition from his fall is thematically made relevant by an exchange he has with a prisoner:
“You are in hell, little man. And I am the devil.”
Of course, Bruce is confident and doesn’t agree, so he ends up in a fist fight with this pretender and several of his buddies. But in the next scene we are then immediately introduced to Ra’s al Ghul, though we are still unaware at this point of his true identity and intentions. However, it could be said that he is playing the role of Mephistopheles to Bruce’s Faust (and it’s worth keeping in mind that Mephisto himself is only a servant of the devil). The following exchange with Bruce will also illuminate his plans with Bruce’s ‘soul’ (though we never learn what exactly about Bruce attracted his attention in the first place – why it was that he saw so much promise in him. Was it his determination to ‘fight evil’, or the fact that he is the son of Thomas Wayne, who had represented the best and most gifted of Gotham, or both?):
Ducard/Ra’s: Are you so desperate to fight criminals...that you lock yourself in to take them on one at a time?
Bruce: Actually, there were seven of them.
Ducard/Ra’s: I counted six, Mr. Wayne. [notice he’s already linked to the number of the devil as opposed to the number of God, 7, though this could just be a fortuitous coincidence – ed.]
Bruce: How do you know my name?
Ducard/Ra’s: The world is too small for someone like Bruce Wayne to disappear...no matter how deep he chooses to sink.
Bruce: Who are you?
Ducard/Ra’s: My name is merely Ducard, but I speak for Ra's al Ghul...a man greatly feared by the criminal underworld.
A man who can offer you a path.
Bruce: What makes you think I need a path?
Ducard/Ra’s: Someone like you is only here by choice. You have been exploring the criminal fraternity... but whatever your original intentions...you have become truly lost.
Bruce: And what path can Ra's al Ghul offer?
Ducard/Ra’s: The path of a man who shares his hatred of evil...and wishes to serve true justice.
The path of the League of Shadows.
Bruce: - You're vigilantes.
Ducard/Ra’s: - No, no, no. A vigilante is just a man lost in the scramble for his own gratification. He can be destroyed or locked up.
But if you make yourself more than just a man...if you devote yourself to an ideal...and if they can't stop you...then you become something else entirely.
Bruce: Which is?
Ducard/Ra’s: Legend, Mr. Wayne.
Notice how Ra’s recognizes the role of free will (choice) in deciding fate, and how he invokes Bruce’s interest by first claiming to fight evil in the name of “true justice”, though he ends by cunningly – and knowingly – invoking in Bruce his desire for something else: to become a legend. In other words, it could be that Ra’s saw in Bruce the same promise that Mephisto saw in Faust, while recognizing that he could also manipulate his desire for recognition and power – albeit inspired by a conventional, but arguably innate, desire to do good (which will lead him to turn against Ra’s, and later to outsmart the Joker and his anarchic tactics). I see in this great parallels with the Faust story and the Fall of Man, which if correct, should be resolved in the next Batman movie. If this is the case, the role of Rachel as love interest (and object of desire) also needs to be resolved. Seemingly this would involve him learning Rachel’s intentions to marry Harvey in the second movie, which would lead to the inevitable question: would he still have tried to save her first, or would his allegiance to Gotham, and thus Harvey as the city’s white knight (and heir to Batman), have overcome his love for her?
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Replacing Heath Ledger is no easy task but I think Hunnam is up to the challenge and looks a lot like him.
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Ok, going against my own advice, I will say something here: I agree with those calling for the Penguin and the classic, golden-age villains, especially the Big Four (Joker, Penguin, Catwoman and the Riddler). I can think of several reasons why they would work the best:
1) Thanks to the TV show, cartoons and previous Batman movies, the Big Four are more famous than Batman’s other foes, and that’s what the general public wants to see. Sure, you might like the Black Mask or Killer Croc, but you just put a commercial showing a question mark or a reference to umbrellas and the general public will be excited as hell to see the next Batman movie (just like the Joker card at the end of part 1 got everyone excited).
2) Since Batman’s older, Golden Age foes are actually arch-criminals and not super-villains, they fit Nolan’s more realistic Batman universe. Ra’s al Ghul and Scarecrow stood out because he was a Fu Manch-like super-villain and the other a mad scientist, respectively. But the other villains represent a kind of metaphor for different aspects of crime: The irrational, chaotic nature of crime (Joker); the gentleman veneer hiding the cruelty of the organized, professional criminal (The Penguin); the femme fatale, sexy seductive nature of crime (Catwoman); criminal as victim of another’s crime (Two-Face); criminal as a thrill-seeker, narcissus or egomaniac (The RIddler), etc.
3) Like the Joker, Two-Face and Batman himself, I think most people would be intrigued at how Nolan reinterprets the classic characters to a modern audience. Nolan’s Joker isn’t really the Joker from the comics, and I appreciate that. Neither is his Two-Face. But the have enough in common with their comic versions to make me feel they are legitimate interpretations of those characters, and new aspects to them to make me say they are completely unique and original.
Personally, I would live for him to tackle the Penguin. I know he has been quoted as saying the Penguin would be hard to handle in his realistic take of the Batman universe, but I think he is selling the character short and his potential. I mean, why is Joker considered so realistic (a deformed insane criminal someone takes over all the crime in Gotham despite the fact no one earns any money under him?) while a criminal mastermind who isn’t a deformed clown and actually commits crimes to make money is considered fake and ridiculous. Go figure.
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Jan 26, 2009 9:41:50 PM CST
Media Messiah...it's just that you are so easily manipulated--
by bob cryptonight
--for instance, into making that stupid post about being a messiah. The personal attacks are just a means to make you flip out and write sillier posts. You either like the Nolan films or you don't. The rest of your so-called "debating" is just icing on the cake. Go, brother, go!
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Jan 26, 2009 9:50:18 PM CST
Media Messiah...DR. HORRIBLE did not have a sucker-punch ending!
by bob cryptonight
A sucker-punch ending? You could see that coming a mile away (but, seriously, I don't think it wasn't intended to be a surprise). It was a freaking silly sci-fi musical that used many sci-fi AND musical cliches! I am not trying to insult you here, but I must ask your age. You seem like someone who must be in his early teens. That's why you aren't "getting" things in TDK and, especially, Dr. Horrible. I think I'm done debating this with you because it's starting to make me feel bad if you're just a kid...
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Jan 26, 2009 10:00:53 PM CST
Octaveaeon---its a superhereo movie not some pretentious philosp
by dioxholster
man stop ruining batman for me man, wtf, its nightime and i dont want to think about all that mumbojumbo philosophy u wrote, not the time.
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a really big giant potato with wheels to take to the city away from the countryside----man i need sleep
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Have you been reading Today's Shenanigans too?
http://tinyurl.com/cybu8q
Bonus round: The play that the Waynes were seeing in Begins was a opera about... Mephistopheles...
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if its opera, but you know
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been considered a surprise was if Whedon DIDN'T kill the girl in the end. That's his M.O. It's like be surprised that a M. Night film has surprise endings.
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... a poor love triangle and terrible characterization are not valid ones. Media Messiah, you're an idiot. I'm not trying to go the "internet track" and making fun of you for making fun of you sake, I'm simply saying that you are truly an idiot.
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...coming from a podunk South Jersey paper like the Courier Post? I almost spit Iced Tea on my monitor when I read my local paper's name in this article. Even in Jersey, most people buy the Philly Inquire cause a big story for the Post is the Annual Ocean City Baby Parade (NOT made up).
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Introduce him and his company as a competitor to Wayne Enterprises. That way it's more realistic and then we also have a challenge for Wayne, not just Batman.
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Jan 26, 2009 10:58:26 PM CST
re: "Just conveying a report recently sent in by one untested so
by larry sellers
Way to go, rumor control!
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It was interesting, to say the least. And I'd like to know exactly how fucked up his Riddler would have been. I'd LOVE to see Black Mask, Killer Croc, even the Ventriloquist given the Nolan treatment. Given the unpopular villains of the first film (who were used SPECTACULARLY), and how successful that was...and how much MORE successful TDK was with Batman's "A" villain, they're going to go bigger. There aren't any minor crime bosses left for Batman to dethrone, it's going to be much, much worse in Gotham. I'm wondering HOW THE FUCK they're going to manage that. Ledger's Joker was unpredictable and unhinged and creepy and dangerous. Everything that Begins lacked in a villain, and everything that WB needs to get asses in seats.
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All this hate for tdk is special ed. Nolan's batman universe isn't perfect but it's a shit ton better than the burton/shumaker installments. If it was too dark or realistic for you than get toys, your super 8 and head for the sandbox. Us with pubes prefer a semi plausible bat-universe.
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Wonderfully put.
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Barring that, I expect Catwoman and the Riddler to show up. I have a hard time imagining most of the other campy villains fitting into Nolan's universe. The Penguin, maybe.
And of course Clock King. -
TDK SUCKED!!!
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media messiah: "I came up with a storyline months ago before I saw the film..." Before you pat yourself on the back, read the source material. don't say that the film needed more bruce wayne...everyone who reads batman comics knows that bruce wayne is the mask--batman is the man--the identity he created, and everyone around him is worried about this. Its like when Rachel said 'bruce never came back.' You are so moronic, and for that i am grateful--you entertain me.
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I initially read that as the Cock King. I was greatly entertained.
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No I am just imagining his costume.
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Yeah, that would be awesome. Who doesn't want to see a Batman movie shot badly on a cheap handicam that features music that was outdated and shitty even in the 80's, and transposing gotham to the world of bad police tv. Who wouldn't love to see Batman sporting a grey suit, grey hair and when its time to do a heroic walk off into the rain a horrid black leather jacket. The only thing that could be shittier is if they hired Tony "RUN, SHOUT, EXTREME CLOSE UP, POINT FINGER" Gilroy to write it.
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I think the villain should be Scarface and the ventriloquist. It could be a progression of the crossover between mob and nut-job. Or it could be too unbelievable. i dunno.
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MM= BRU/M-o-M. Even though M-o-M used to slobber on Nolan's cock something fierce over Begins, the atrocious English and laughable pretensions make me think that MediaMessiah is that little remora, only one armed with a spellcheck.
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Come clean, asshole.
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This is an enjoyable gem for you all:
" It's nice to know that people out there still have a sense of taste. BATMAN BEGINS WAS ABSOLUTE SHIT!!!!!!!! I have said it, I have explained my reasoning, and I don't give a shit....BB fucking sucked!!! Ordering Bat Masks from China? Stupid. The batmobile hopping roofs? Not to mention the stupid ass design of it!! As Pilgrim stated and I have stated a hundred times. Bales voice is the gay. He is THE worst Batman. The scarecrow? Are you fucking kidding me? The goddamned mob boss looked like low budget 70's tv actor. Batman riding around on a horse commanding bats? Fuck you that sucked!!! Giant cgi water, what the fuck ever manipulator as a WMD? Fuck off!!! Liam Qui Gon Gin side kick in Krull Neeson as that gay ninja Ras?!!! Fuck you again... Damn I could go on and on and on.....Fuck you !!!!! Oldman's character was bland as shit. The girl...what's her fuck...she was worthless and had no point. Bale running off to some mountain top with a flower and becoming a ninja after only four days of watching a Billy Banks Tai Bo video. Then kicking all four of the Ninja Turtles asses only to fall off of Mount Fuji and land at the bottom with Austion Powers dad waiting on him in a suit. Morgan Freeman gives Bat Bale the whole Batsuit and Fagmobile and doesn't notice a thing when Batman is in this thing double duching across roofs. damn I can keep going. Bat Bale gets all drunk and like a deadbeat son burns his parents mansion down leaving himself and Nigel Powers homeless. The scarecrow come along with a fucking potato sack over his head and blows some goddamn shroom dust in this bad 70's tv show actors face then the bad actor has a real bad acting spell and gets put in some retirement home for bad actors with the ScareNope following right behind him after Bat Bale reverses (that clever Nigel Powers) the effects of the dust shrooms back on to ScareNope. Then Bat Bale runs around looking for that useless whore bag he shacked up with only to discover that the main plot of the movie involves some huge laser water hose that Qui Gon is using to water the scarecrows shrooms. Then Bat Bale hitches a ride on the train because the budget was running out towards the end for the movie so they had to wrap things up real quick. Only to find Qui Gon talking to Darth Maul and plotting the destruction of City Bank and Starbucks. Bat Bale really likes Starbucks and is pissd that he and Nigel Powers are homeless so he fights the Jedi and leaves him to die on the train as it careens down a set of poorly built tracks that Bat Bales father designed and crashes into a bank of America killing the last jedi. I'm not kidding...BATMAN BEGINS has the suck of American Idol!! Vicks Vapor Rub Humidifying Machine was the absolute suck. I got tourettes all of a sudden and I was like..."What the goddamned hell is this fucking shit?" Fuck!! Ass!!! BOB SAGGETT!!!
This last Batman movie should have been called....Batman Ends. Let's please put these terrible movies to rest. I go to a movie for escapeism. That is why we read comics and books and see movies. To be taken somewhere else. I'm not going to see a Batman flick so that I can be sucked into some modern day cop reality story with some costumed Dagonconer running around in front of a Starbucks. That kind of shit pulls me right out of the movie and is fucking depressing. It's like being real high with your friends in a dark house at three o'clock in the morning playing some good music and someone flips the fucking light on and yells out what time it is. You come crashing down and you want to kick the dudes ass for being like Christopher Nolan...a fucking asshole!! FUCK YOU!! "
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Pretty clear here what they're hinting at. It would have been great if after Freeman said that, both he and Bats slowly turned to the audience, shattering the fourth wall, smiled, winked, nodded, and then held up an issue of the Catwoman comic for a few seconds before returning to the story.
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Some of you guys better watch your cortisol levels...if you die of a heart attack before the third one you won't be able to dissect every second of it.
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For practice, when I was writing my own Batman screenplay (my imaginary sequel to BATMAN BEGINS),...I was...torn...in my approach to Batman's use of a car. Why? Because to truly blend in, to become "invisible", I imagined a beat-up looking American muscle car (perhaps an old Buick) that was MADE to look like junk, on the outside. But in truth, the car could hardly be more hi-tech. (I wish that I had my papers handy so that I could relay Lucius Fox's reasoning for, and description of, the car. It was a surprise for Bruce. It was some of my favorite dialog that I had written.) My own reasoning for that approach, was to "fit" Nolan's life-like, more plausible interpretation of Batman. (If writing for a sequel, I believe in a consistency of style.) But how can you NOT have a cool looking Batmobile? So,...my BEST answer was (or at least, seemed to be) to have the NEW Batmobile appear in the last act.
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The studio sees big dollars and suddenly thinks they KNOW what audiences want. "Sam the fans want Venom." "Chris the fans want Riddler and they want Depp to play him." This is going to be bad. Once studios see this kind of return they start to meddle.
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...Watchmen has no hope. Even if people like it in theaters they will hate it on video. You just can't make geeks happy anymore. We should back to the days of SPAWN..maybe then people will be more grateful for the movies we are getting now.
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If LAW ENFORCEMENT is seriously after Batman for suspected homicides, then my above mentioned approach to the Batmobile sounds like a good idea. And I can't wait for Nolan's next Bat-flick. (In the hunt for the dark knight Batman, bring on the boyscout Superman!)
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The majority of posters are now in agreement that Batman Begins is a better written and developed film, story wise, and that's a dull film--it's just that TDK is overly messy and dull. That said, both films are self important to the point that the overly serious attitude that they project is weighing on viewers, in terms of asking them to give into the suspension of disbelief.As per Dr. Horrible, I am correct. You guys can keep fantasizing as to otherwise. You're in denial right now, but you will eventually come around.
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Its the Riddler and Catwoman!
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Quote: "(BB & TDK)...are self important to the point that the overly serious attitude that they project is weighing on viewers, in terms of asking them to give into the suspension of disbelief."Well, if that's true, then these so-called "fans" should just hang themselves.
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Seriously, what were your other Talkback names? Inquiring minds want to know!
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I wasn't talking about Dr. Horrible being a musical, I am talking about the effectiveness of the story...and how Joss Whedon was able to successfully introduce us to his characters, whom we've never heard of before--then, make us like them, love them, laugh with them, feel sorry for them...and then pull the rug right out from under us in the end, after us becaming emotionally invested in these characters...some rather joyfully, I might add.The surprise ending that I was talking about wasn't the girl's death...the surpise sucker punch ending was Dr. Horrible's conversion to evil. This was a sweet guy, and more than a bit of a shy buffoon, who suddenly turns...into a serious threat, something that he never was before--no, previously, he was just a lonely well meaning nerd who wanted attention and respect by fancying himself as someone strong, a villain, if you will, but that wasn't really him...this guy was really a hero at heart. It was the death of his innocence, as provided by the loss of the girl, not once, but twice, once to his enemy, a misogynist and creep hiding behind his hero status...who compromises the girl, whom sees the world through the rose colored glasses of Hammer's fame and alleged heroics. He uses this girl as a whore in his play not to not only take advantage of an admiring fan, but to humiliate his foe, Dr. Horrible, who truly loves her. This is an assault upon him, Dr. Horrible...as bad as an indirect rape of his soul. That is the first death of the girl, then comes her accidental demise...one that twists Dr. Horrible, the man responsible, into a cold villain...one that he playfully aspired to be in the past, but now, through his broken heart, he had become...unexpectantly, even as a surprise to himself, a real villain and the worst kind. At that moment, he realizes that the world isn't fair, no, it is brutal, and he now has one cause, to make the world a little less brutal by doing what it takes to make it so, even if he has to reap great tragedy upon the world. Instantly, you can see that this guy could easily become a Hitler...and unlike the Joker in TDK...he has a purpose, to save the world from itself...even if he has to destroy much of it, to do it, then...so be it. That is the amazing sucker punch, to see his sudden descent into pure and serious evil, not just him continuing in the role of fun buffoon like musical villain...but a real, hateful, and committed villain. You ain't seen that in a musical before!!! My point, musical or not, all the right dramatic cues were there, and in place in Dr. Horrible, cues that TDK was missing. Rachel died to evoke the rise of Two-Face, who has no real purpose than to tell us about chance...and then he dies before he really has a chance, ironically, to even make a real statement, whatever that statement was...or could have been--thus robbing Rachel's death of serving any real purpose other than as a throw away plot device.
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I remember that post by UNDEROOS HERO. Great find.(And you just know that he actually still wears Batman underoos...)
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I'm one of the most famous Talkbackers of all time...but that isn't important. Know this, no good deed goes unpunished...and I'm not too keen on playing the martyr anymore...as you always get burned...and I'm pretty much tired of it.
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Quote: "I'm one of the most famous Talkbackers of all time..."Are you sure about that? If that were the case, don't you think we'd know?Come on, dude. You said you had two names. Give us one.
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Finally we discover Robin's point of entry . . . into the series.
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Holy shit, it's the return of MERCIER!!!!!!!!
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oh please, motherfucker, grow a pair of testicles.
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Isn't Bruce Willis the most famous talkbacker of all time?Hey, Bruce Willis. I just Saw Die Hard again last night. It was mint.
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He was a world class troll, but the talk of Martyring makes me think he's zfisk. What's your photoshop skills like?
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I am Bruce Willis.
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I mean, who else's name rings better with the word "fucking"... sprinkled into the middle of it??? You gotta love Whedon.
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Jan 27, 2009 11:07:41 AM CST
BATMAN: They won't. (to Gordon) They can never know what he did.
by ironic_name
THIS IS TOTALLY SETTING UP SUPERMAN, WHO'S GONNA AMNESIASMOOCH EVERYONE IN GOTHAM!
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dr light is being set up for nolan batman 3!
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Jan 27, 2009 11:12:54 AM CST
harvey shot dead the driver! this means DEADSHOT is in it!
by ironic_name
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Jan 27, 2009 11:16:08 AM CST
in theaters by 2011! 20+11 = 31! 3+1 = 4! fantastic four!
by ironic_name
its a message from goyer!
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justice league the movie!
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i figured it out, anyone remeber Jondough? well thats media messiah, that idiot who gave us a first review of the spirit.
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How dare you compare me to such a small time wanna-be?
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Seriously, I have no desire to see a sequel to TDK right now. The movie was so well-done that I'd rather let the anticipation build for a bit. A third one too soon would be an inevitable disappointment. TDK took a huge gamble by playing with so many plot threads--it nearly was bogged down with the Two-Face plot, but Nolan and his cast made it work against the odds.
I've always felt the best way to follow-up would be to do something along the lines of The Dark Knight Returns. Not a direct adaptation, but just the idea of Batman laying low for years and then re-emerging. You could have someone else as Joker at that point and it would bring the idea of Batman on the run full circle as he's revealed as a hero at the end.
But Nolan won't go that route because WB will be too worried about limiting the franchise. I assume they're going to use one of the traditional big villains in a sequel--and I think there are ways to bring Riddler, Penguin or Catwoman into play in Nolan's universe. I like the idea of Riddler as a logic-bent terrorist, Penguin could be a dark version of Bruce Wayne and Catwoman would be interesting as a way of seducing a darker side out of Bruce Wayne.
But why use an established villain? I think it would be more daring to see Nolan create his own villain, someone who presents a threat that ties into themes of the series. I think the problem with established villains is that you have to shoehorn them into something that's already established and you lose some of the narrative purity. Creating an original threat to Batman and Gotham would be the most thrilling, surprising way to go.
Just please...no Robin. -
Was Jeff Albertson actually banned from AICN? He wins my vote for biggest douche bag to ever post here. I thoroughly enjoyed administering a daily beat down on him.
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based on what themes he wants to adress. BB: League of shadows (vigilantism) and Scarecrow (fear) TDK: Joker (chaos/anarchy vs. order) and Harvey (duality, chance) I suppose it's fair to assume this will be the case for a third film as well. So what themes could Catwoman, Penguin or Riddler potentially illustrate? BTW, Dark Knight Returns is good, but overrated. There, I said it.
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Yes, Jeff Albertson was banned awhile ago. But do you remember J.J. Binks For Prez in 2008? That was him as well - also banned.His original name was Jar Jar 4 Prez (he's gone through about a dozen names since) and he kept getting banned during a series of Flame Wars with me and some guys from the Comics TBs. Without a doubt, he is/was one of the biggest assholes to ever post on AICN. I share your joy in the various beat downs I delivered unto him. And who knows...if AICN ever lifts the registration ban, he may return for more punishment.
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You could still bounce a quarter off that ass.
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I had no idea he returned under those aliases. I wish I would have known and I would have gleefully piled on!
But really, as much of an ass bag as that little prick was, what did he really do that was caused him to banned multiple times?
I'm probably forgeting just how annoying he really was...I'm sure the powers that be couldn't stomach his idiocy anymore that you or I could. -
Actually, you may remember a few of his other aliases: Vog From Dimension X, by by, OscarWilde4Prez, Mr. Mean Gaius, Tegujai Batir, etc.As for his various bannings, I believe they started when he was first posting as Jar Jar 4 Prez. We got into a fairly bitter Flame War and at some point, he created a new handle called, Mr Nice Gaius (notice that there is no period after Mr). With this handle, he started trolling numerous TBs in an effort to make me look like an ass. He also started a fake conversation between the two names to make it look like I was getting schooled by JJ4P. However, at one point, he forgot to log out of his alter ego and thought he was still posting as himself. After I found this particular exchange, I notified TPTB about his goof on my name and they brought down the Ban Hammer. It's one of the funniest fuck-ups I've ever seen on AICN.He later returned and started trolling the BSG Talkbacks in an effort to get me into another Flame War. Since he wasn't offering anything worthwhile, I think Herc took it upon himself to ban him on numerous occassions. He pulled the same crap in the Comics TBs as well and the mods had to drop the Hammer several times.The guy has gotten worked over more times than I can remember. The best part is, I don't think he really knows just to what degree he got (to use his favorite term) "pwned".
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I had no idea. Wish I would have been aware as it was happening.
Based on your post I now find myself longing for his return so that we may continue his public humiliation in earnest.
I figured once TDK came out he shut his cake hole, full well knowing the film "pwned" his ass. He railed aginst Heath Ledger for days and I'm sure he didn't expect what he saw.
Oh Jeffrey...are you out there somewhere you little bitch?? -
...Jeffrey used to love to "pwn" me over the slightest grammatical error. Ironic.
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Actually, I would say so far that both BB and the TDK have a theme is common: terrorism. Both films deal with the villains acting as metaphors for terrorism.
Ra's al Ghul and his League of Shadows are on a "holy mission" (jihad anyone) to wipe clean a cesspool like Gotham of the map and push their own brand of justice; Scarecrow is an individual trying to inflict massive "terror" on the entire city; and the Joker is an an Abu Zarqawi type, wishing to inflict as much death and pain as possible for motives we can hardly fathom. Plus his entire speech about just needing enough money to buy gasoline and bullets could pretty much sum up al-Queda, the Taliban, the insurgents in Iraq or pretty much any terrorist group who are not out for any monetary gain and need only to simplest weapons to inflict massive damage.
If Nolan wishes to stay with the terrorist route I can see him introducing a plot line involving WMD, put personally I hope he moves away from the terrorist angle. Of course terrorism is something to be feared, but I think there our plenty of other forms of crime that we should be concerned about (and with the economy taking such a downturn, I expect to see a rise in crime again). Corruption, organized crime, oppression, these are real problems, especially to people living outside of the US or England (just look at Mexico to see how big of problem organized crime can be).
So for future themes you could have Batman face the dilemma of when is crime justified (Catwoman, who could be a Robin Hood-like figure), the fact that the powerful and respected can commit crimes without fear of punishment (the Penguin maybe), or bring back Two-Face and explore the limits that vigilantism and revenge.
And like you Colonel Blimp, I consider TDK overrated (of course, how can’t it be when it was voted #1 on imdb for awhile).
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It's a really good film with Ledger's REALLY good performance. And very re-watchable I might add.
In the context of all movies... YES it is quite overated. In the context of the superhero genre... it gets the kudos it deserves. The great thing about it is that Nolan addresses bigger themes within the genre more successfully than other comic book movies have. -
I totally agree with you on the terrorism theme (it's probably no coincidence the Joker's shenanigans involved so many oil drums...). I'm intrigued by the speculation over the Mr. Reese character re-emerging as the Riddler and wonder if Nolan & co. might end up going for some sort of corporate/economic terrorism angle in part 3 (which would fit in nicely with all the industry bailouts and the impending depression the US currently faces). Who knows? Reese/Riddler attempts to blackmail Wayne with his inside knowledge and is aided in his treachery behind the scenes by another wealthy eccentric named...Oswald Cobblepot?
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Nolan SHOULD include Superman in THE DARK KNIGHT follow-up. Escalation leads to Superman's involvement. EVERYTHING THAT I AM tells me that Nolan KNOWS THIS. The question is, does Nolan have the balls?
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Have a major disaster hit Gotham. Doesn't have to be an earthquake, could even be a hurricane, although that would be seen as a little too on-the-nose by most mainstream critics. Since Batman is still considered an outlaw, the people don't turn to him, but instead to Oswald Cobblepot, a "legitimate businessman" with an umbrella fetish and the nickname the Penguin (like Bugsy Siegal, people only call him that behind his back.) Think the Thanksgiving turkey scene in American Gangster.
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Have a major disaster hit Gotham. Doesn't have to be an earthquake, could even be a hurricane, although that would be seen as a little too on-the-nose by most mainstream critics. Since Batman is still considered an outlaw, the people don't turn to him, but instead to Oswald Cobblepot, a "legitimate businessman" with an umbrella fetish and the nickname the Penguin (like Bugsy Siegal, people only call him that behind his back.) Think the Thanksgiving turkey scene in American Gangster.
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It's that simple. Why? Because DC would NEVER have Superman as the villain. For one thing, with the Siegel and Shuster estates exercising more control over the character, they probably couldn't do it. For another, think of the backlash among casual comic fans. Hannity and O'Reilly will bitch about how Hollywood is crapping on an "American icon." So don't hold your breath. DKR will never happen, or else it will be in such an altered form that it won't be recognizable.
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He obviously picked 2011 because there was 3 years between Batman Begins and Dark Knight, and between the first and second Burton movies. And he shouldn't get too much credit for the movies - he also fucked up Constantine and Catwoman.
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He obviously picked 2011 because there was 3 years between Batman Begins and Dark Knight, and between the first and second Burton movies. And he shouldn't get too much credit for the movies - he also fucked up Constantine and Catwoman.
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Jan 27, 2009 5:07:12 PM CST
sanzaru, I hope they don't go the economic route %100...
by continentalop
...Not that I don't see the economy as a huge obstacle and problem for the US and the world, but to me their is something so very un-dynamic and underwhelming about a rich billionaire battling to save his fortune from another rich businessman. Whatever the story is it should be something that concerns the average person on the street, be it Gotham or the real world, and be something that is very tangible to them. Besides, how do you fight a bailout or a depression?
Of course, that doesn’t mean you can’t use metaphors or symbolism for representing greed, corruption and the gap between rich and poor. Which is why I am such a big fan of the Penguin, he is so useful as a metaphor for so many different themes. One easy example: you could make him a powerful gangster/master-criminal who acts civil, promising order and prosperity to Gotham’s underworld and citizens after the anarchy of the Joker, but at a cost of him being an all-powerful, benevolent tyrant who is beyond the law (hey, Dick Cheney!); the classic exchange of ones freedom and virtues for security and comfort.
Of course, I don’t expect them to use him in that way , but that was just an example.
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Not TDK, which I think deserves all the praise it can get. :) I agree that terrorism is adressed in both BB and TDK, but if one is to pinpoint more universal themes from the two movies, I'd rather stick with my above post. None of those themes negate the terrorism angle, but I think it would be to shortchange the complexity of these movies to say they are just an allegory for terrorism (not saying that you did that, though). Terrorism may be the most apparent and relevant manifestation of these themes today, but if these movies are to stand the test of time (which I believe they will) they need to be able to represent something more universal and timeless. And they do, IMHO.
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was he the one that came back as "Zach Braff for Pez" and later just "Braffed"? he was a douche too
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But definitely has a terrorist "slant" to the subtext and themes in the movie. But that is to be expected: crime films of the late thirties & forties definitely had a fascist/Nazi angle (M & the Dr. Mabuse movies in Germany; Petrified Forest to a degree, This Gun for Hire and Key Largo for the US), and crime movies of the 50's had a fear of communism/communist sympathizer slant (The Enforcer, Kiss Me Deadly, and Pick-Up on South Street) or fear of a blacklist (Crime Wave and westerns like High Noon and Silver Lode), so I am not surprised to see terrorism allegories in TDK, and would more surprised if I didn’t see it.
But I agree that individual characters in BB and TDK represent personifications of certain concepts, like the Joker representing chaos and anarchy. That is why once again I like the Penguin, and I will also add Catwoman. Both characters can be used to represent a specific concept better than other characters I think: Penguin could be used to represent the dangers of Corruption and Greed, and Catwoman could easily represent sympathetic criminals, a Robin Hood figure.
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even uglier.
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Pussy. Specifically, Batman banging a chick he has quite a bit in common with; an outlaw with a penchant for fetish wear and a secret identity. Their difference being that Batman deals in moral absolutes whereas Catwoman exists in a more morally ambiguous mode.
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I like where you are going with that. Write a treatment for Nolan and WB.
And by a "more morally ambiguous mode", are your referring to anal? -
Wanted blows TDK off the screen without even trying, and I only really felt that Wanted was maybe half of a good film. But it is no competition between the two films. If you want a good to great Batman film, they should hire the director and screen writers of Wanted to do the sequels.
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Catwoman: Seductive quality of villainy / redemption (think Brubaker reformed Selina)
Riddler: arrogance / hubris / intelligence put toward destructive ends or bordering on insanity
Penguin: as someone else pointed out, the dark side of extreme wealth / bullying / redemption as well -
Ok, now you are obviously trolling. Or showing a complete lack of cinematic knowledge and taste.
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Or have you been drinking?
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And was kinda disappointed. I loved it when I was a teenager, but I don't think it holds up that well. I think Year One is a much stronger story.
All I want to see from Nolan for this third film is a strong final chapter to the trilogy. They won't be able to top TDK, so they shouldn't even try; all they have to do is make a solid film that wraps up the trilogy nicely without going over the top. I'd actually almost rather see something quieter, maybe even vaguely gothic in the classic sense; Bruce Wayne as Batman as outlaw; more of an unhinged recluse getting crazier and crazier, still fightning his endless war on crime, now from his Batcave underneath the new mansion... then, one day he runs across Catwoman; another "copycat" he thinks, but finds out she's much more; a morally ambiguous woman much more in line with his own proclivities than Rachel Dawes ever was... But she's criminal! Or is she? -
Never happen.
You guys are trying your hardest to try to envision him somehow in Nolan's universe and it just won't work.
All of the 'gangster' 'master criminal' 'mob tyrant' archtypes in the world fail to address one fatal flaw: The guy likes penguins.
This is stupid. It is silly and there is no way to write such a goofy contrivence into Nolan's Gotham. -
Don't make it be about his fetish for penguins; make it about how he has no neck and kind of waddle/lurches like a penguin.
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This is still only an unsubstantiated conjecture:
http://tinyurl.com/b577gm
But considering the problem Batman had with copycat Batmans in TDK, there is no reason why there may not be those who are inspired by the Joker's moral nihilism and his exultation of chaotic action. -
Jan 27, 2009 8:28:17 PM CST
DoctorWho?, have you ever seen the Penguin's first two appearanc
by continentalop
When Nolan and his brother wrote the Joker for the Dark Knight, they specifically looked at the first two appearances of the Joker for their inspiration. Yes, there was a little "The Killing Joke" and Englehart's Joker in there, but for the most part they went back to how he was in his earliest appearances, exorcised all the camp and kitsch that had gotten into the character, and that is what made him so effective.
Well you can do the same thing with the Penguin. I have always thought that one of the reasons the Penguin has become so unpopular is that, unlike the Joker, he has never been allowed to move away from the Burgess Meredith version of him. That is a great version, yes, but it is dated and campy and the Penguin actually has so much more to him than just a guy going “waugh, waugh.” I mean, that would be like always expecting the Joker to be depicted the way Caesar Romero depicted him on the Batman show, as a goofy clown.
In his first appearances he isn’t called the Penguin because he likes Penguins, it is because he has a comical appearance like one, and he walks with a small waddle hence the nickname. Kind of like how mobsters and gangsters have funny nicknames (Tony “the Ant” Spilotro, “Bugsy” Seigel, “The Camel” Murray Humphreys, Joey “The Clown” Lombardo, etc.). And yes he wore a tuxedo, but that was the standard dress for gentleman going out on the town; nowadays he could just as easily be wearing an Armani or Brioni suit or a Burberry coat. As for the cigarette holder, ok for the days of FDR but nowadays just replace it with expensive cigars.
Plus, when first appearance he killed people, rather ruthlessly, and he also managed to escape from Batman for his first couple of appearances, something the Joker never could do. The original running “gag” for the Penguin was that he always manages to escape from Batman’s clutches. He was the “untouchable” villain.
The original intention for the Penguin was to make a villain that people under-estimate, showing how evil can come in such a non-threatening appearance. One of the original descriptions of the Penguin in the comic was that his “comical appearance hides an evil, genius brain.” That is also why his weapon of choice, his trick umbrellas, also serves as a metaphor for the Penguin himself: something apparently harmless and perhaps even comical that conceals a something very dangerous and deadly.
And no, when he first appeared his, name wasn’t Oswald Cobblepot; like the Joker, he originally had no origin or name, being a complete enigma. I am not saying you have to go the same route as the joker, but it does give Nolan and his brother room to reinterpret him anyway they want. I could easily imagine a short gangster/crime boss who earns the nickname the Penguin because he waddles like Vito from the Sopranos and his calling card is his umbrella, which he uses like a cane for his handicap (like how some people use golf putters as canes).
For a great “interpretation” of the Penguin, see the fake Orson Welles' Batman trailer on youtube:
http://tinyurl.com/dm6xql
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Is the Batman voice Bale does, it's beyond ridiculous folks, let's be honest about that. The movie is good, but far from a masterpiece. It's an average to below average movie that was made great by Ledger, and Ledger alone.
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It is Bale's entire depiction of Batman. Or should I say, his performance as Bruce Wayne when he is around only Alfred or Rachel. He is such a pussy!
And this isn’t really a knock at Bale as an actor; I think he pulls off the shallow, rich-kid Bruce Wayne persona great. I just think that the direction that Chris Nolan and Bale went with their version of Bruce Wayne was a misstep. His constant whining and angst over his love life, and his “woe-is-me” for having the burden of being Batman just got to me after awhile. It made if harder for me to believe in the character, since I can’t imagine someone putting so much dedication and time into becoming Batman and then regret it so shortly afterwards. I mean you don’t hear athletes whining that often about how tough the game is after they spent their entire lifetime getting to that point, do you?
I think the problem is that most actors and directors equate personal dilemmas and turmoil and constant angst with being the stuff of better characters. That isn’t always the case. Mel Gibson’s best role is probably Max from the Road Warrior, a character who says maybe a dozen lines and never whines or complains about his lot in life. Same with Daniel Craig in Casino Royale; he might smile and but on a charming front to get the women, but once he is done getting any information out his “armor” comes back up and he goes back to being a cold, unemotional professional. I am hoping that with Rachel’s death Bale’s depiction of Batman will become harder and more serious.
My other problem with Bale is he should bulk up a little. I’m into martial arts and I’m a big fan of MMA, and I just can’t see Bale being the badass that Batman is. He needs to gain about 15lbs of muscle in my opinion. But once again, it is only my opinion.
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That was probably the best pitch for the Penguin I've heard so far so props to you. But no matter what the origins might be or the re-imaging possibilities...the overall indelible impression on the public conciousness IS Burgess Meredith (who I love) and to a smaller degree DeVito and most of the comic era.
The Joker has a different place in peoples minds...the Madman, the scary clown vibe which most people can relate to. We have The Killing Joke etc. which went a long way in evolving the character further. Penguin has had no such treatment. The Joker character has much more latitude for interpretation.
Not that Penguin couldn't be shoe- horned into Nolan's universe, but the very characteristics which would have to be downplayed are the very ones which make him "Penguiny"...he ends up being reduced to just an Al Capone type gangster at which point...why even call him Penguin?
By comparison, The Joker's traits can be played broadly with the right actor...his "madness" gives the charater more liberty an unpredictibillity.
Riddler and Catwoman seem less of a strech to adopt into Nolan's vision. But truth be told I hope they don't make a third.
BUT, if they did do Penguin how cool would it be for Devito to play it again...but NOLAN'S WAY! Dude is simply the perfect physical specimen for the role. -
I heard so many great things about DKR and was very disappointed and almost gave up halfway through. absolutely WAY too much television reporter frames...in fact, i find it extremely wordy... i was pumped to read it and then read the sequel, which i bought at the same time, and have yet to read a page, mainly because people say its worse than DKR, which i felt was pretty bad... probably fantastic for its time, but is no where near my favorite arcs in comics... it is high on my list of boring comics. feel free to attack the hell out of me for my negetivity about it, but please, don't educate me about what it did for comics or how great it was at the time... i'm living in the here and now and i just don't think it measures up anymore. just my thoughts. oh yeah, and media messiah is a tool. he thought he was so damn smart with his 'letters' that he wanted to be 'published' (but doesn't realize that getting an email posted on a blog isn't getting 'published) he also thinks that because those letters weren't 'published' it means that the person who does the blog 'didn't want the people to know' what he 'knew' then he actually expected people to congradulate him on 'calling it' when what he called was pretty damn obvious. he's hilarious.
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wow lots of spelling errors... please overlook them, its late, and you get what i'm saying.
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If he talked in any resembling his own true voice everyone would be saying "Obviously Bruce Wayne...can't everybody see that?"
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Are you really Jeffrey Albertsont returning for another spanking? The arrogance, the condescension...it all seems vaguely reminiscent....
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media messiah is delusional. calling himself a 'martyr' on a stupid message board... he clearly has no life, no friends, and no intelligence. i wouldn't be suprised if the issue of sex came up and he said a breast feels like a bag of sand. nothing more to say.
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as an underground informant of Batman.. sort of like his ears in the underworld.
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is if nolan says "fuck it, I was gonna make it about batman and gordon and how gordon has to hunt him, but they want 2 people in rubber kissing."
I just don't think nolan does fanservice. and lucius is elusive like that; "will the new tumbler be able to outrun the cops?" "as long as they don't have ferraris, mr wayne."
the whole point was a setup for the end of the movie, where joker has the dogs attack batman.
I could be wrong, but then again what if I'm right? -
Jan 27, 2009 10:33:38 PM CST
wixmmm. DKSA is woefully shitty. the spirit movie's idiot brothe
by ironic_name
and yeah, DKR is atrocious.
gotta fanboy for a bit:
if superman moves at the speed of sound, and can think faster than a human, and can see miles away, and has laser vision, then the only way batman can win is because the writer has a small dick and needs to show that "the smaller, weaker outclassed guy wins". -
So, uncreative of you!!!
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I am going to admit I am a big Penguin fan and admit I might be wasting my time trying to convince others of his merits as a possible Batman foe. To me he has too much untapped potential as a great villain, as he once was (for the longest time he was considered Batman’s greatest foe, pretty much from through the entire 60’s to the 70’s). But I will concede that there are some weaknesses to him as the main villain in a movie. I admit that there is something much more obviously frightening and dangerous about the Joker, a madman and a lunatic dressed in a clown makeup versus a debonair little man with umbrellas. Plus, I admit the Penguin lacks another quality that the Joker or Ra’s al Ghul had, which is that they could actually be a physical threat to Batman. The Penguin is much more of a planner and organizer than he is someone who will risk his own neck to kill people in person (unless absolutely necessary).
But I think the solution to those problems is not having the Penguin be the only villain. Have someone else be the physical threats or challenge. A perfect scenario for me would be for someone like Catwoman, the Riddler (through his death traps and bombs and such) or maybe a still living Two-Face challenging Batman straight up while the Penguin operates in the background, making his moves while Batman is distracted, and like in the old comic books he somehow manages to avoid being stopped by Batman so he can appear in the next movie more powerful than before.
I can also see the Penguin being a kind Mephistopheles-like figure, one who figures ways to tempt and corrupt other people. Where the Joker just used intimidation and the fear of his completely illogical methods, the Penguin could use leverage and bartering to get what he needs. Everyone has a price would be his motto; the type of person who has dirt on everyone and isn’t afraid to use it. Or to quite Don Corleone, he will “make them an offer they can’t refuse.” A cop or DA needs money for a sick relative, the Penguin or his men are there supply it to you for a favor; Gotham’s new DA sleeps with an underage prostitute, the Penguin has the photos and will release them if he doesn’t do what Penguin orders; Gordon was involved in a dirty shooting when he was a rookie cop, and the Penguin knows about it and is willing to release it unless Gordon dances to his tune.
This would also play well with the Penguin’s appearance. No one would make any deals with someone if they knew he was evil and couldn’t be trusted; well, the Penguin’s friendly, almost comical appearance would lull people into believing he was harmless (that is, until he reveals his motivation for helping them or shows them his true face). Think of him as a variation of Verbal Kent/Keyser Soze and Senator Palpatine/Darth Sidious, whose weak, helpless appearances mask and conceal their true evil and dangerous personas.
I also think it would play well with Catwoman if she was used as the other villain. You have a woman that Batman is attracted to, who is breaking the law but she is targeting an untouchable criminal. Who do you stop or help? Holy Moral Quandaries Batman!
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I said in my post that i don't care about how good it was for the time... and everyone knows how it and watchmen changed comics... HOWEVER, DKR is paced too slowly. The obscene amount of news reports really brings it down. All those great things you mentioned are true--those are fantastic examples of how DKR reimagined the batman mythos, and the effects of that are still felt to this day. (again) HOWEVER, those great things are spaced so far apart... when you list them all it makes DKR seem unbelievable, but the book way too wordy and goes by so slow that those great things aren't enough to carry the book... those great things are great, but they take up only a small fraction of the book... the rest of it is too muddled. again, this is just my opinion, and i respect your argument (which was admitedly a good one), so lets just say we can agree to disagree.
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Shut your filthy retarded mouth. Stop. Or I'll fuck you up. No. I will.
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Shut your filthy retarded mouth. Stop. Or I'll fuck you up. No. I will.
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Sooooo you picked that name after getting shot in the face from a money shot?
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Please explain you fucking ass.
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The other thing about the Penguin’s non-intimidating appearance is that it actually works well with the plot of Batman being a wanted criminal. If the public and the police are demanding Batman’s head, it is hard for them to stay angry with the Caped Crusader when another costumed lunatic is on the loose offing citizens. You know if you have a madman making a big stink by sending out puzzles and riddles before he kills people, or a guy in cryo-suit with a frigging freeze ray turning Gotham citizens in corpsicles, and the only one who can stop him is Batman, you are going to get over the whole “Outlaw Batman” thing.
But if you have a harmless looking criminal, someone who everyone assumes is helpless, using the fact that the police and the public are distracted by their hunt for Batman as his chance to re-organize the underworld and take over Gotham, well that could work. It doesn’t take away from the entire Gordon vs. Batman scenario, and it also adds another complex theme for Nolan to play with: that sometimes the “outlaw” has to protect society from those that society views as respectable and in power.
That is my last Penguin comment. I swear it. Really (unless I think of a really great argument).
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You heard it here first.
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Penguin as only slightly eccentric, manipulating mob boss. I do not want to see DKR....yet.
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Seriously.
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Both were the high water marks of American comics during the 80s. Both changed the comic landscape for American comics. That said, only the WATCHMEN still holds up. DKR seems hopelessly stuck in the 80s. Its got some cool parts, no doubt, and I LOVED it when I was a teenager, but WATCHMEN is a vastly superior book.
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and dkr and miller in general sucks.
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The plot for part 3 will of course also have to fit into the status quo at the end of TDK - Bats on the run, Gordon probably actually having to chase him, not just pretending to do so, the vacuum in Gotham's underworld what with Maroni dead, Bruce Wayne maybe finally having the time to feel the void after Rachel etc. Also, Bruce Wayne isn't whiney, he's behaving like a human being, making him that more compelling, IMHO. Anyone still reading this, btw?
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None of that will work. They'd have to work from the central ideas, and ignore most of what made the comic great. For instance - Alfred dying of a heart attack? That's fine in a standalone 'what if', but it wouldn't work as the concluding part of a trilogy.
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Kurtlockwood and i have flamed each other and i can't remember why, but i'll agree with him--you're argument is pretty weak. alfed dies of a heart attack--what about that wouldn't work? if he didn't die everyone would be like 'how old is alfred now? how has he been alive so long?' I actually think that there are enough good ideas in DKR to make a fantastic third or fourth batman... and i think nolan would work wonders on the source material... as a comic book i find it slow, wordy, and a bit dull--but if you took all the great ideas and sped up the pacing a bit it would make an unbelievable movie. it'll never happen though.
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Zed said: "They'd have to work from the central ideas, and ignore most of what made the comic great" This statement could not be further from the truth. In Kurts compelling argument in favor of the book, he listed tons of the great parts of DKR... and the way i see it, the 'central ideas' and 'the things that made the comic great' are the same... just look at the list he made,those are central AND great things about the book. I still stand by my opinion that the book is boring, but cannot argue that the positives Kurt listed are things that the book did extremely well, and things that could carry a movie. (but they can't carry the book IMHO)
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A number of other things have appeared on the big screen. Those things are:
The appearance of Robin in the new Batman franchises. You can't have Carrie be the new Robin unless there was another one before her.
A Superman film. DC and WB are not going to let Batman trash Superman, making him an obsolete here before they have had a chance to at least cash in on him a little.
A Superman/Batman team up. The entire fight between Superman and Batman is so powerful because for the longest time they were close friends, "World's Finest." Without that past relationship, their fight doesn't mean nearly enough on a personal level. Superman is basically told "Take down your Best Friend" and Batman has decided to hand his former comrade in arms a lesson.
So you need one or two Batman movies, at least one Superman movie and one World's Finest movie before you can go ahead and shoot DKR.
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