Cool News
Hercules Loves Wednesday’s First New LOST Since May!! What Say The Critics??
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Tonight’s first new hour of “Lost” gets an A-plus. Lots of interesting stuff going on on the relocated island with Daniel Faraday and John Locke! Questions are answered and intriguing new questions are posed.
The wheel-spinning second hour, which pulls the focus away from the island and toward Hurley and the Reyes clan, drifts into B-minus/C-plus territory. It nonetheless has its moments thanks to a couple of unexpected returns – and an intriguing denouement.
The fifth season’s third hour, airing next week, is 100% free of Hurley, Jack, Kate, and of the rest of the Oceanic Six, and bounces us right back into that realm of A-plus storytelling.
Fun fact: Daniel Dae Kim is billed as a regular this season but doesn’t appear in the first three episodes.
The best news, perhaps, is the character-centric flashbacks and flashforwards have finally been phased away.
Find my 2008 write-up of 2009’s first two hours here.
Here’s a new clue. Carlton Cuse has been contending in interviews that time travel on “Lost” can’t alter fate – but Cuse’s creation, Daniel Faraday, differs on this point. And, based on tonight’s installment, I’m more inclined to back Faraday’s take.
USA Today says:
… Yes, I know. You have questions and you want answers. Happily, Lost's two-part return provides them, along with more jolts, twists, wit and sheer entertainment value than almost any other show on television. … it's hard to name a series that is as engaging, surprising and flat-out gorgeous as Lost, or one in which every effort and penny expended seems to be put to shimmering good use. …
TV Guide says:
… gets off to a thrilling start … you’d be a fool not to watch …
The Los Angeles Times says:
… Although the series is now headed toward a definite conclusion, a little more than a year away, there is no way that whatever happens from here on in will account for everything that has happened up until now. The writers have been too profligate with the apparitions and coincidences to wrap them up neatly. …
The San Francisco Chronicle says:
… one of the few challenging series on mainstream television. It doesn't spoon-feed the American public a trite, easily predicted ending. Its ambition and creativity - and yes, the confusion - are what fuel the basic greatness of "Lost." …
The Boston Globe says:
… Truly, the "Lost" premiere is riveting, which, for a two-hour episode in the later stages of a series run, is an impressive accomplishment. … Please, please, please don't let "moving the island" become the new three-word phrase for what happens when a show loses its sense.
Variety says:
… if you love it, you should still … approaches its twists with what appears to be a greater degree of intellectual rigor than almost anything else on primetime. Even when it's difficult to keep track of the myriad connections, a sense lingers that somebody knows -- which is strangely reassuring. … there are only 32 hours to go, and I don't plan on missing a single one of them.
9 p.m. Wednesday. ABC.
Last week a season of “Lost” cost $47.99. At the moment each of the first four seasons is $29.99!! (50% Off!!)
From The Guy Who Wrote
The Making of Star Wars
And The Guy Who Wrote
Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays!!
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+ Expand All
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it's about time!
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my first first on the first episode of a new season
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Bring it on!
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Kidding, it's still awesome.
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Best fucking show on TV.
Lost>all -
I'll be at work but i got DVR really to go
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So, are you saying it's on tonight?
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Because I like my Lost with absolutely NO SPOILAGE. I don't want to hear SHIT about it until after I see it... But I'd just like to say that I can't fucking WAIT for the return of my favorite show of the past 4 years.
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4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42 4 8 15 16 23 42
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Ps JIN JIN JIN !
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She's baaaaaaaaacckkk
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236 days. OVER. Television can be cruel. But its over. The best show on tv is finally back. REJOICE!
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Wow, it's been almost a year since LOST was on, and now it's back finally. Can't wait. Fucking got off work for tonights event so I expect nothing but awesome.
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And this is the night.
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Let's start using this phrase as the opposite to JUMPING THE SHARK.
p.s. I AM SO STOKED. -
we got the talkback. Is that sad? Probably. Do I care? Not in the least. Bring on the POOM!
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The most beautiful woman on Lost.
I would suffer a beating from Jin to be with her but once. -
It's a really great place, very welcoming. Great hosts, if you stick around long enough for us to notice you. It would be great to see some new and familiar faces.
Just hit that chat button up at the top of the page here. Once there and connected, type:
/join #room23
If you need any more help, like how to access with mIRC or Hydra, let someone know and we'll help. I look forward to chatting with any and all of you after the west coast airing. -
The two best shows currently on TV, with Supernatural a close third, replacing the previosly good Heroes, which Jumped the Island some time ago, haha.
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Bush is gone and Lost is back!
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Hi guys. Good to see you again.
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oh...my...god...i thought this day would never come. is it 9pm, yet? harrumph...
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So what are we gonna do when this show is over? Im scared to even think about it...
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Is this the last season?
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Don't care what she does in it. She could slice vegetables for an hour and I would watch that...
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Oh happy day!!!!!!!!
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Faraday said you can't change the future in the Constant, right? And Cuse agrees with this?
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...Life is good.
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i am ridiculously excited for this shit
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Jan 21, 2009 3:55:32 PM CST
Heres something to pass the times with untill Lost comes on
by 4we8have15to16go23back42
http://lostroom23.blogspot.com/
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slicing vegetables? How about enjoying cucumbers and carrots before cutting them. and sharing them with Claire? Man, I have a filthy mind. But you know you would all be watching that show.
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OMFG! Can't believe it really is finally here!
Doing dances for Desmond
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Cheers, Dharmites....
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Lost has gotta have a lot of character stuff to be Lost. Notwithstanding the quality of the Hurley bits - which I haven't seen yet, obviously - in principle that sort of thing is part of why I watch the show.
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Isn't A+ easier and more understandable?
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I will be havin a 2-hour Dharmagasm tonight! I say...put on yer welding masks before viewing...cuz tonight's LOST will be the first eye-fucking of 2009!
Namaste, bitches! -
finished up Season 4 this afternoon and am ready ready READY
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Joy Joy
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Such a huge fan.
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What I especially love about LOST premieres is that they make it three hours long-- they really let you make a night out of it and get as stupid as you want to get about what a big deal it is. speaking as a stoner/nerd, LOST premieres are the stoner/nerd superbowl. and they happen way less often than the superbowl does.And there was much rejoicing.
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I feel like my life has been on hiatus for 8 months, and I don't care how pathetic that sounds. I need me some LOST
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Let him return from the Land of the Banned. The time is now!
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am i the only one who enjoys the recaps every season?
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But why is Herc down on the flashbacks and flash forwards? They added a lot to the show, IMHO - and now apparently we won't really get a chance to see any for characters like Charlotte.
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Especially since they started the pop up video style captions. And without the recap there's no three-hour premiere extraveganza!!
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Just wondering...
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I'm hoping it means they will still use them judiciously-- if we don't get a Danielle flashback I'm gonna be one disappointed dude-- rather than feeling tethered to the "well what's the flashback gonna be this week/which character will it focus on on the island" formula of the first 3 seasons.
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that flashes wouldn't be the focus anymore does not mean no more Flashes. They said the same about Flashbacks in season 4 and we still got Juliet, Jin Locke her Flashbacks. So Im betting that we will get some Frieghter 4 stories.
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...there will still be flashbacks & forward...but it will be over the entire episode...just not in snippets like before. For instance...
An entire episode might be set in the groovy 70's...with early Dharmites rockin out to Geronimo Jackson. The bonus is...Sawyer...2004 Sawyer....will be able to walk right up and make fun of them in his redneck sarcastic way.
So...in a since...the flasbacks just became a lot more 'interactive' for our Losties. -
is that just a theory or is it science fact?
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idk if that's exactly what's going to be going on, but that'd be dope. haha. Also, hope we see more kate boobage this season..
i know i'm not the only one either. ha. -
...most of season 5 will be like the Island having its flashbacks. If you've seen all the trailers and sneak peak footage it looks like the bouncing through time is gonna give us a "Greatest Hits" of all the cool shit they've talked about for four seasons, Dharma, Black Rock, Smuggler's Plane, etc.
Also, it seems like the alter/can't-alter the past thing seems like an interesting application of the fate vs. free will talk. -
... turn out to be flashbacks in the remaining eps?
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Seems she's under contractual obligation for a few glimpses a season, so I'd commence breath-holding ....now.
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What I'm curious to see is: If it's true we're gonna revisit all of those things in the Island's past, are they all gonna turn out to matter somehow to everything leading up to the plane crash? Or will it more be a big tying-up of loose ends so we can get that shit out of the way and move onto whatever they have decided is the actual story of the show?
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...it seems the point of storytelling in the form of a tv show should be more about telling the story with the show being ON TV! It feels like it's not on waaay more than it's on. I know this is simplistic, but there will be plenty of time for the show to NOT be on...when it's OVER.
I mean, it's like LOST is my favorite show that's NOT on television...'cept tonight it's on.
It's like I am in a relationship and I'm the needy one with low self-esteem and LOST could take me or leave me, and does leave me, for extended periods...and when LOST returns it's all flowers and romance and memories, but before I know it LOST is off to buy a pack of smokes and I'm alone again.
I shouldn't complain. That just makes me less attractive to LOST.
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no more flashbacks and flashforwards anymore. That's part of the show's signature and part of the reason it was so good the first three seasons. I guess it's true the show doesn't really need flashbacks anymore because we "get" who the characters are by now but I don't see why he's celebrating the fact that we no longer get them. However, hopefully this will mean the end of filler episodes. I just believe that they have left so much to explain that it will be near impossible for them to wrap it all up in just 2 short seasons...
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If we use it as a positive, to talk about a show that re-invigorated itself late into a series run....what shows have actually done this?
Anyone?
Bueller?
Bueller? -
Jan 21, 2009 5:12:23 PM CST
What they should've done is have like a 2 hour episode
by coughlins laws
in the fall to hold us over, kind of like 24 did. This is just too long a wait for episodic television. I'm sure the cast liked it because it gave them like a 6 month break where they didn't have to be in Hawaii and could do other projects. But damn, this has been a ridiuculously long break...
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time to turn it.
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The Daily Show when Jon Stewart came on, the US version of the Office when they let the minor characters become bigger parts of the show, South Park when they got to 4th grade, Roseanne when David was on it more (not when she won the lottery) all come to mind. What'd I miss?
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Sadly, they're a fact of life for TV this good. I'm just glad it's a show at all. In a little more than a year it won't be and neither will BSG--- wrap your head around that one!!
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taking a massive shit. Viva Mr. Ecko!
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For Canadian viewers it's on A-Channel instead of CTV cause the ear splitting brain numbing warbling that is American Idol pulls in better ratings (wtf?)
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LOST did a six episode mini-pod of episodes to start Season three that aired in Oct/Nov...all were pretty forgettable outtings. The show didn't hit stride until new episodes resumed in Feb '07.
Granted...darlton were in full on 'stalling/padding" mode at that time. But those first 6 eps they tried to 'tide us over with' felt rushed and slapped together in all facets.
I'd rather just wait it out and make sure we're gettin quality episodes EVERY week for a long stretch....rather than a hodge podge.
I feel ya...It sucks hard waitin for new LOST, brutha. -
Please.
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Jan 21, 2009 5:59:43 PM CST
LOST returning = Beginning of the end of Bush Administration?
by puddleglum
America, we can no longer yell out "We've got BUSH!!" I hope you're happy.
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JACK IS NUMBER 1
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seriously...they owe that man their jobs
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bacci40 doesn't know shit.
LOCKE IS NUMBER 1. -
this is the first time i have agreed with someone on this site when they use the phrase "eye fucking" to express anticipation--you see, (pretend season 2 never happened) the showrunners of lost have proven themselves time and time again. so, for the first time ever, i can say, with confidence, i am ready to get my eyeballs fucked.
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Ben is about to reveal the secrets of the island and the reasons behind everything, he draws in a breath, then Hurley wakes up just as Oceanic flight 815 lands safely, says "Wow, weird dream. I'm never eating airport food again".
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it is rediculous if you claim to be a fan of lost, but don't like the flashbacks/flashfowards. that narrative device has been instrumental in a) making the show feel fresh b) making the show interesting and c) making me ask the types of questions i like being asked. To not like the flashbacks/flashfowards is like saying... well i can't think of anything... but i'm sure there's a fantastic analogy that could be made to express the idea.
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You forgot to mention that Ben is dying from a gunshot wound from Marvin Candle.
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I'm anticipating the beginning of this season's premiere more than anything else. According to critics, (SPOILER!!!) it starts with a mind fuck of 'Desmond in the hatch' proportions. Who do you guys think is the unexpected character in an unexpected situation we'll see in the first five minutes of tonight's ep?
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To whoever said that we won't be getting flashbacks/flashfowards in snippets but rather there will be episodes that are ALL flashbacks/flashfowards i will be furious. right above i said i love them, but i love them because of the way the island plots and background plots work together--a whole episode set in the past is the most terrible thing that i could see happen to this show. if people complain about 'filler' episodes of battlestar galactica, there should be even more people pissed off about 100% flashbacks/flashfowards episodes...that would define 'filler'
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you knowm maybe i benefit from the fact that i got into LOST by watching seasons 1 and 2 on dvd but i don't get the hate for season 2. the mythology of the show majorly came from season 2.
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I watched Season 2 live, and I still don't understand the hate for it. Season 2 brought us Dharma, Desmond, Eko, and Ben. Except for Fire+Water, it was a pretty flawless season...
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Great article. Thanks, 4we8have15to16go23back42. Loving the room23 posts.
http://tinyurl.com/dhs2j9
Did these two figure it all out? -
Season 2 was the shit. Badass mythtology, badass television, deep character development. It was one of the greatest seasons a television show ever had. It's just coming off of season one, it sucked. Then once season 3 hit it's stride the show never looked back. I remember watching season one and anticipating it every week, all week, couldn't wait. Season 3 & 4 were the same way, and tonight? Fuckin' Lost is on, bitches!!!!!!! During season 2 it was like, oh yeah, Lost is on tonight. They brought in uninteresting characters, as well as characters who just made you absolutely cringe everytime they were on the screen. (Ana Lucia) The hatch was a major dissapointmet. Waiting the first three weeks to see what the hell was going on because they had to show entering the hatch from all different perspectives, it felt like we were being fucked with. Locke lost his mojo. We were left twisting with Henry Gale half the season, even though EVERYONE knew he was an other. They softened up Sawyer, made Charlie bad. Every week it felt like the story was being dragged out to no end. You watch it on DVD now and it seems like it's getting there quickly, but at the time everyone felt cheated. Like I said, though in retrospect it was a great season that gave us Eko and Ben, watching it then, it just left a bad taste. Anyway, Fucking Lost tonight!!!!!!!!!
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Though it's been a while, your post evoked memories I had of watching S2 live... and you're right on the money.
Season 2 was a far better season to watch on DVD, than over the course of several months. And also remember that S2 was at start-stop-start-stop intervals, which caused the need for the "6 episode pod" in S3... -
I havn't seen any episodes since the beginning of season 3. Will I be up to speed if I watch tonights episode. I miss watching it.
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The BEGINNING of season 3? So, you don't know anything about the alien abductions, contagious pregnancies, island moving around in time, or dinosaur attacks?
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Okay, now I may be forgetting something really important from last year's final episode, but I'm a little confused about one thing: Will this season be in two different years? In the present day (where Jack, Kate, etc.) is back on dry land (so to speak) John Locke is dead and really, really, REALLY bad things have happened to the island. However, on the recently moved island lives John Locke?? I figured that we would see what happened through flashbacks, but now I'm starting to wonder if the two locations are in two different years. And if that's the case, can they even get back to the island?
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You missed the summer zombie mini-season???!!!
No, seriously. Fire up a bittorrent client, look for something called "Lost season 3" and start downloadin'. Or just watch the hour long catch up episode they'll air tonight before the premiere. The devil in me says... download... the angel in me says.... download. Then buy the DVD set. -
A friend gave me the first two seasons in summer '06 and I loved it. I was suprised by all the hate when I started checking the message boards out. Good to see I'm not alone.
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The John Locke that was on the island is in the year 2004. The John Locke that is in the coffin is in the year 2007. So, some time between 2004 and 2007, Locke leaves the island.
Am I making any sense? -
Not sure what show you're referring to, but we're not supposed to get the zombie season until the seventh season.
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I will agree that the second season plays much better in retrospect, knowing everything that comes after it. But while it was on, it was pretty infuriating.
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Here we go...
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THAT say The Critic.
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Manipulate time...sweet.
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from Earf
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Come on!!!
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...season not "compromised" in some way so far. S1 has lots of signs that they didn't know where the show was headed. S3 has a severe case of spinning wheels. S4 had the writers' strike.
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Someone should have done that to get answers a loooong time ago. hee hee
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was going to be time travel, because it'd be the only to solve all their writing problems. i'm really dissapointed to be horribly right. during the hiatus i watched the entirety of the wire and bsg. lost seems like a ludicrous soap opera now.
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Season 5 will be the island jumping around so the left behinds will experience island history first hand. It will go back and forth between that and the OC 6 trying to return. But Darlton said that season 4 would not have flashbacks and Juilet, Jin & Locke all got Flashbacks. So I would bet that we at least get a few of the Freightie flashbacks mixed in with a majority of island & OC 6 back & forth. I would bet Faraday & ether Miles or Charlotte.
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are hilarious
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It was a straight up horror movie establishing shot. Sweet to see on a show like this.
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wow = I think I in heaven :) She is one of the best looking gals on TV and if you disagree I will hunt you down and push you on some dish washed knives. ;)
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Only thing missing is Denzel Washington and Val Kilmer.
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is the smoke monster
That's why he never ages -
Sayid was still working with Ben. Apparently they had a falling out, sometime in the 3 year interval...hopefully we find out why.
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Wow, this episode is frakkin' awesome!
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..I do now? I just watched the first 5 minutes of the premier, and turned it off. I put the ones I havn't seen on my Netflix. I wish they were available on the instant.
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are the oceanic 6 the island's contants?
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...but seems newcomers to the island stay on the exact spot where they were on island before the timeshift but others who died come back to life or go to other parts of island they were on in past or future. Bloody confusing. I'm on for the long haul until the series ends but this is a good way to lose more casual viewers.
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Never ever.
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Why is that a bad thing? Done correctly, time travel stories are awesome. I have no evidence yet that Lost's time travel story will be anything less than excellent. They seemed to be avoiding all the normal continuity problems.
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Ehhh..guess not...Interesting theory that the smoke monster is actually time correcting itself when things "change" that weren't supposed to change.
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Sawyer hearts Jack *sparkle*
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did the episode jus end?
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and the oceanic 6 are the people's constants. that's why they have to go back. if they don't the people on the island die.
(although I do think it's rather convenient that desmond is the only 'special' person, being he's the only one who could possibly help them. -
.....Tell Me you Love me? You gotta love seeing Penny getting nude and pounded. Damn she is a fine looking woman.
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thank God he is around to say what needs to be said and smack people who need to be smacked. Plus he nailed Kate so right on Brother :).
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Fucking ponces, the lot of them...
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because they hinted at it in season 4 in the constant that there has been something unique about him due to the emp release at the end of season 2
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Tell Me you Love me is gone for good . . . you'll have to be satisfied with the inevitable DVD set
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and the Oceanic 6 are the constants. That's why all the people on the island will die if the Oceanic 6 do not come back.
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Dammit
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Ana!
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at "Oh yeah, Libby says hi!"
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Jan 21, 2009 9:02:54 PM CST
Finally, time-travel done the way I've always imagined.
by royston lodge
I've had these sorts of arguments with other nerd friends over too many beers, and I'm SO happy that there's now a cinematic portrayal of time-travel that agrees with the side I've always argued.
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Libby says, "Hi."
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makes me very happy.
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...who ya gonna call?
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...goes to show, in Hollywood all drug/alcohol problems are eventually forgiven (Robert Downey Jr., etc).
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at least there is a REASON for desmond being special. I can buy that.
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You're watching Lost in a cinema? Cool.
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...dammmit..
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the new TASG?
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He should be wearing a red Star Trek uniform...
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Dream Police playing in the background.
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damn, gasoline is still 3.22 in Lost World
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Jan 21, 2009 9:13:08 PM CST
i'm confused about how many oceanic crash survivors are left ali
by lt. kaffee
and where are they? chillin' on the beach while the island time hops?
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If The Observer popped up hidden in the background periodically.
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And, yeah. Sure you were going to flush em, Jack. We believe you.
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Didn't see THAT one coming.
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And his hair is FABulous!
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Lost is back! Why did Honda make a musical road? That's a weird ad.
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it's about a man unstuck in time poo too weet which actually will resonate you in a way you'll never forget, while elucidating a dark chapter of actual human history, and making you laugh. it'll take you three days to read.
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they need a new weasle there
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Please, get them a quirky apartment in Brooklyn, a mean stray cat who visits every morning, a tipsy MILF for a landlord, a Rush Limbaugh type as a downstairs neighbor, and a hot goth chick as the regular pizza delivery person. Ben and Desmond can guest star for the Christmas episode.
You KNOW you'd watch every week. -
Sun --> dead meat --> Ben Linus
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Claire can play the hot Goth Chick!
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Nothing but a 'Red Shirt'.
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buh-bye, neil.
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OH! That's funny!
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I can't watch right now because of the retards here in Arkansas who thinks I would rather watch some shitty basketball. Bastards.
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nice nod with the sunglasses.
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Yay! Never liked her.
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I was going to say that book was mentioned previously so it was obvious where the "Unstuck" in time came from. Check out the book - also a movie but Reading is Fundamental.
:0 -
Arzt
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Yeah!
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dayum
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or helpful really. "I've been shot with a flaming arrow!! Quick, throw sand in my wound!"
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would have like for Neal to shriek like a girl a bit though
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Kate and Sun Yummy
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"Hell hath no fury like an insanely rich Korean woman avenging her husband."
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sure sounded a lot like, "You killed my husband".
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Welcome to Earf moment
*ssshhhhhhthunk* -
come McFarland make it and I will buy it or a dozen :) Make it life size & I will give you my car.
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That "How's Jack?" after her speech was E-vil.
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There was this hatch, see? But it blew up! And then... AND THEN . . .
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'nuff said
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Hurley just explained the entire show in a minute. Like Cliffnotes but without that crazy reading stuff.
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I woulda laughed really hard.
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is that how Monton lost his arm?
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It wasn't as good as the first ep...but that ending KICKED ASS...one of the best of the series.
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that was a fast two hours
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is freaking me out.
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so many thoughts on what who when things are going down but really don't beleive any of them are right
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... opps - wrong fav. show :)
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if i had to choose between living my whole life till 80 without ever seeing Lost or living till 50 and seeing it all id choose the ladder..............how sad is that? lol
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was revealed last week. Now, back to Lost....
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is that the lady Desmond met in the jewelry store?
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Pretty obvious.. it is the people unstuck in time affecting events.
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Also, I really hope the island folk go back to when Rousseau crashed, or even back to the Dr. Candle days.
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All y'all need to watch The Wire if you likes the drama. Indeed.
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Do we know who the Meddling Monk is? Well, obviously I don't, but does anyone else?
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First the Red Shirt, and now Data's mom is gonna save them all! ;-)
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I hope you actually want to see the 'latter'. I think you might be disappointed by the ladder.
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word up aicn....now this winter of our discontent, brough back by this this son of yore...shall say....it is
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who judged juliet.
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Nice surprise to see Fionnula Flanagan. Totally awesome two hours.
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will be a classic one
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how i met yo' mutha.
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the lady who told desmond tha the can't change the past after he blew up the hatch.
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Just a lot of moving the pieces around. Hopefully it will get better soon.
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And since Locke killed two guys.. didn't he just messed up the timeline or will time re-adjust and ressurect them soldiers?
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Wouldn't it be cool if different shows ended with links to another. Say Lost is tied into BSG or some other geeky type show. You could even have the guys/girl from "Big Bang Theory" show up in Star Trek or the such. Would never happen - Just a thought from a mind crushed with too much TV watching ;)
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"Um, it's relative!"
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the same thought came into my head about hawking being dan's mother. but dan said she was in oxford and ben was still obviously in LA becasue they seem to be doing the present tense at almost 24 pace so he couldnt of gone to and fro
the question becomes who are these people that ben has working for him. are they others that cant make it back to the island? are they new recruits? -
History will record that they were killed in whatever war was going on at that time.
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but the soldiers weren't suppose to die.. or were they?
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LOST is back!
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Totally awesome episode!!!!!!!
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There is no "correct" timeline. Things happen the way they happen. You cannot "change" something that happened, but you can move to a different spot in time and influence how it happens the first time it happens. In other words, you couldn't go meet someone you already know at and earlier point in history, because then THAT would become your first meeting, which would "change" an event that had already "occured". But if you go back and influence an event, that's actually the first time the event "happened", so you aren't changing history, you're simply helping to create it.
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Second episode was definitely Hurley-centric.
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The one where Sam inhabits Lee Harvey Oswald. Sam thinks he's failed in his mission because he didn't prevent JFK from being killed, but then Al informs him that if he hadn't intervened Jackie would have died as well. Sam wasn't "changing" history. He was making it happen "correctly" the first time around.
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Can't wait for next week. XD
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...who says Aussie soldiers aren't that brutal? ;-)
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A 24 talk back this past monday.
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Is in L.A. to kill Jack. Or, at least try to kill Jack.
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. . . actions that the survivors take while gallavanting in the past are what give The Others cause to be so paranoid later on. Maybe disastrous meetings with these time-travellers is what convinces them that the Dharma Initiative has to be destroyed, lest it finds a way to tap into the island's wacky energy source.
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...people(in the form of the smoke monster) pullthe pilot out of the plane and kill him. I can't see that.
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The smoke monster theory implies that the time-travellers are "changing" history, which I don't think is actually happening. This isn't Back To The Future.
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It clearly was always in the plan. The Black Rock slave ship in the middle of the island? Clearly the island appeared UNDER it. Now enjoy the extremely well written show and shut the fuck up.
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...how Alpert knew to be at precisely that spot at precisely that time to bandage up Locke's leg. It was a very Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure moment. "All we gotta do is remember later on to travel back to this moment and hide a gun here! And see, there it is!"
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Jan 21, 2009 10:39:40 PM CST
Awesome ep. I wish they'd TRY to get the physics right tho.
by donnadarko
Not that we KNOW the physics of time travel of course - but even a brief MENTION of the earth's rotation, and/or expansion of the universe would be nice.
I mean, technically, even if they jump a minute in time - back or forth - their minds *might* register the sight of the earth floating to their right before they die. That sort of thing.
Writers ALWAYS forget that 'Earth hurdling through space at 29.8 km/s' when they create the time travel storylines. -
Now, I'm no scientician, but from my half-understood viewings of episodes of Nova, I thought that the Earth's gravity attracted time in the same way that it attracts matter. So, in theory as it applies to tv and movies, the Earth's gravity well could continue to pull on a fictional character even as they travel through time. In theory.
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Sayid is Jason Bourne. Awesome new use of a dishwasher. Hurley's mom: why is there a dead pakistani on my couch?! Hurley throwing the burrito almost made me shit. Oh, and the Hurley/Sayid Weekend at Burnie's thing was hysterical.
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I've been waiting for her to return ever since "Flashes Before Your Eyes," which if you recall, was the first episode that hinted at everything being all wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.
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An orientation stage name for Dr. Chang?
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I'll bet we'll be meeting them real soon, too. Or...in the final episode.
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"why is there a dead Pakistani man on my couch?"
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They did address that last season, with time travel being relegated to mind-time travel. the person didn't move, their consciousness did. Though this season seems to make clear that they are PHYSICALLY traveling through time. So your criticism is right on as far as I can tell.
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Or even better, a dinosaur with a Dharma Initiative collar!!!
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except maybe it IS getting to be a little Back to the Futurish....
Charlotte is mentioning how she's beginning to forget her Mother. Maybe she's being erased and instead of fading away we're seeing her body completely break down from being an anomaly in time. I dunno.....just a thought. That said who IS her mother? Penny perhpas? Weird I know....but we ARE dealing with time travel here. -
So, I'm guessing what Ben did WASN'T move the island through time...he physically moved it to a different place on the planet. Because moving it through time doesn't make sense as the island would be physically in the same place. BUT moving it to another place on the planet caused a side effect of moving through time for those ON the island. I think...I'm confused...
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Too mch i know, but damn that was a great premiere. So many cool moments - Best show on TV.
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When that scene played I was THIS CLOSE to writing a post in which I referred to her as McFly, but I'd just written a post already and didn't want to be TOO chatty. ;-)
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I think Ben STOPPED the island in time. From that moment forward, the island ceased to exist in time. So now, it only exists in the past. As far as I can tell, the survivors have never 'skipped' to a moment in time that occurs after the island disappears. They have only been skipping around to different points in time prior to the disappearance. Maybe the big wheel that Ben turns is actually a valve of some sort that shuts off the flow of time.
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AWESOME episode. I'm still reeling... need to see it again!
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makes me really miss Pushing Daisies. If ABC would have scheduled PD/Lost/LoM, I'd only have moved for pee breaks.
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So when Ben put the metal stuff in the closet, did that cause the temporal "record" to start skipping? A bit heavy handed on the intro.
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NOVA has documentaries regarding time distortion and black holes; and Arthur C. Clarke probably did the best explanation found in a fictional book about light speed travel (Childhood's End). But since Earth is neither traveling at light speed, nor does it possess the gravitational force of a black hole - for the sake of hypothesis - let's needle the Lost writers!
Even if the most bizarre ideas of time travel are correct - what's to stop a character who has suddenly jumped forward (or backward) in time to 'arrive' in the middle of a tree? Or have a foot in the middle of a rock? The atoms have to go somewhere.
That could be an AWESOME way to kill off a character or two. I remember BSG had pilots die because they accidentally 'jumped' into a middle of a mountain - it was something suggested to the writers by their science adviser who works for JPL. -
...fuck me.
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Was Frogurt screaming his head off while multiple flaming arrows pierced his red fucking shirt. Fucking doucher. The brutality was so...necessary. And the knives in the dish washer. Wow.
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That shit was THE SHIT! Worth the 8 months.
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And the guys who attacked Sawyer & Juliet at the end were Rosseau's team.
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The Earth is physically changing around them, so we know it's beyond Desmond's 'mind travel'. Ben turns the magical wheel thingee and ends up overdressed in the North African desert. Now how did he know he wouldn't land in the middle of a 4000 ton sand dune? Or is it a roll of the dice?
Since there is a physicist character on the show - it would make me tingle all warm like if the writers took this on. -
Writers don't always overlook it. Michael Crichton took it into account with his novel Timeline. And I wrote a short story not long ago that worked in the "Earth is moving" bit too. Maybe Daniel's got an explanation for it in his little black book :-)
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It better! - Momma Hugo
Priceless. -
for best performance by a Hot Pocket (tm) in a Television drama goes to...
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Just for argument's sake, let's SAY that when a fictional character moves through time, the Earth's gravitational pull is strong enough that it drags the character along with it's physical location, which explains why they don't move in space relative to the EARTH's position. Presumedly, the gravitational forces of the sun, the planets and the rest of the galaxy would also pull on these fictional characters, though to a lesser degree. So, as a fictional character moves backwards in time, imagine the orbits of the Earth and the other celestial bodies running backwards in super-fast-motion. Maybe the stresses placed on the character's body by these rapidly changing gravitational forces are what's causing Charlotte's headache and memory loss!
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WTF, I'm really confused. Ben said "Penny Locke" to time lady, right?
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They just make funny references to Zeno's paradoxes.
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I'd like to read it - seriously. The P's and Q's of time travel are rarely considered by writers.
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I'm still processing things, but yeah SMokey is NOT our time travelersquick question, wouldn't Des have a recognization/memory thingy of Faraday from th '96 meeting...or was that the '04 conciesne in the past getting the constant...wouldn't at that moment they would share memories
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What's he up to when we see him coming up to Mr. Chang in the room beside the Frozen Donkey Wheel? Can't wait to see what's gonna play out there! Loved the return of Ms. Hawking... Desmond is Special... and HOLY SHIT HURLEY THREW A HOT POCKET AT BEN LMFAO!!! This is the best show on TV. Period.
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It's not online *yet* and if you were to read it, you would no doubt understand the hesitancy (there's one aspect of it that's WILDLY controversial, to put it mildly). But I'm probably going to publish it on my blog soon at theknightshift.blogspot.com Shoot me an e-mail from there and I'll make sure you get to see it :-)
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Whatsupwitdat? Doesn't Locke meeting Ethan in the past sort of fuck some things up? Shouldn't Ethan have recognized Locke during his infiltration of the Losties after the crash?
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It changed its space-time connection to the rest of the Earth. Remember, to reach the island you have to travel a certain bering, well that bering has been changed now. When Ben turned the wheel he changed the nature of the space-time connection between the island and the rest of the world, so it appeared to disappear. The people on the island are now feeling the after effects of that movement, any deviation wreaks havoc on an individuals space-time.
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'Adam' & 'Eve'...Charlotte and Faradayor maybe Char's mom and dad were 'Adam' and 'Eve' which would fit her 'namesake' (CS Lewis)or looking at Lewis, in Narnia, remember Prof. Kirke said that time "there" moves faster then "here" or rather at a different place, and how did Peter Lucy, Ed, Diggory and Polly get to Narnia in The Last Battle? They died in a train crash, and had to go through a 'magic' doorok maybe those last couple of speculations don't hold water...did Lewis write anything on Time Travle, there has to be something to that
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FIND THIS ON THE BT?!?! WHAT THE HECK!?!?
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On a quantum level, actions taken in the present can have a direct and immediate effect on the past. So obviously there are interactions between time and reality going on that we don't fully understand that could certainly account for them traveling to the past and not finding themselves floating out in space. Just eat some popcorn and enjoy the show.
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I thought he said Emmy Locke, what the fuck, why has only that one guy brought this up.
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If the writers eventually use that as an explanation, they deserve a righteous smack upside their collective heads. The 'real' hypotheses on time travel written by theoretical physicists are more mind-blowing than the outright fiction that appears on television and film.
Making up a paragraph or two of sciency-sounding words is no different than saying, "God did it." It's a cop-out. This isn't Star Trek or Farscape. The story is based on Earth - so we should hope that the writers attempt to use Earth-based science!
And I still hope that Sayid and Hurley get their own sitcom spin-off. -
While Ethan might not have explicitly shown that he recognized Locke, was there any indication that he didn't? I honestly don't know because I can't recall the specifics of those episodes. I'm curious about this as well.
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Good point. I hadn't thought about the two different locations. Still, I'm intrigued by the old lady showing up in the real world. I was starting to think she was some sort of otherworldly time guardian who would never be explained.
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What is happening to Charlotte: Maybe it's like in Primer, where if the timeline gets paradoxed you don't just vanish and the universe doesn't end- instead your brain just shuts down because the human brain is weaker than the universe.
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Remember (last season) when Sayid and Desmond were on the ship - Desmond was jumping back and forth in time - and Fisher Stevens' character (George) had a nosebleed before he died?
George didn't have a 'constant'. Desmond found his - so his nosebleed stopped. Since Charlotte's memories of her mom are fading - she's losing herself - there's no constant.
Daniel knows this - that's why he looked as if he'd been punched. Charlotte is going to die like George did (I'm guessing). -
Hurley, et al, dragging Sayid's body everywhere...
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from all the awesomeness in that episode. The Ethan/Locke thing is very curious though. According to what Daniel said Locke shouldn't have been able to meet Ethan when he did. There is no Ethan recognizing Locke post-crash because they can't have met according to Daniel.
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Gotta go with "Libby Says Hi" for favorite line.For someone who reads a lot, Sawyer doesn't seem to grasp simple sci-fi concepts. If you move to when you're already on the island, no, you can't go to the beach - because you might already be there!I have no idea why Herc rated one of these A and the other B/C. Both were brilliant, both were essential, both were exhilarating.I also assumed the woman at the butcher shop was Daniel's mother.Another favorite line, after Hurley explains the first four seasons in a couple of paragraphs, his mother replies "I believe you, Hugo." Really? REALLY? THAT?I liked the season 3 6-episode mini-arc. Losties held captive, women in bear cages, Sawyer and Kate having nude public sex while people watch on closed circuit cameras. if you didn't like that you must be normal or something.I have to admit, though, that I had NO idea this show was going to be headed into this direction based on Season One. And I doubt they had more than the vaguest idea either.A couple years ago when heroes was a hit, was that when they decided to start introducing characters on Lost with superpowers? Desmond is the Special One whose mind bounces in time, Miles senses ghosts (that's how he found the three hour dead boar and knew when it died) and Hurley is seeing and talking with dead people. Although come to think of it, Walt had his make things happen superpower right from the start of season one - and Locke could sense when it was going to rain.
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since day 1
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and not the rest of them? At first I thought it was significant when they showed the Dharma guy in the recap saying he'd been dead for 12 years right after his nosebleed. But wow, this episode really confused me too. I've been a huge Lost fan from the beginning and very little has undermined my faith, but I'm not sure I like this new format. Say what you want about the character flashbacks, but they at least provided cohesion and focus to an episode. Not only did these eps feel all over the place, the show seemed to be a little more pedestrian and mundane. Gotta say, BSG beats it hands down for season (or midseason) premieres. I'm hoping they bring things together more clearly in the coming season.
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If Charlotte doesn't have a constant and that's why she's gonna die, then her boyfriend Daniel shouldn't have let her come on the mission. Unless, he thought she would have a constant. Meaning her mom should have been on the island. But now she isn't. So either Kate's her mom. An island dweller she hasn't met is her mom. Or her mom died before she got there. Okay that's the best speculating I can do for today because my brain is scrambled.
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So are our losties ever going to end up running into each other and their past selves on the island.. Locke was originally suppose to pick the compass when Alpert gave him that test as a child.? And Hugo, Ana warned you not to get arrested.
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and another thing about the flashbacks is that they usually provided an emotional payoff for the characters they were focused on. Whereas without them, you're left with just plot stuff that makes you go 'huh?'
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I can't believe so many people are complaining about the lack of flashbacks. Since the middle of season two people have been bitching about the lack of interest in some flashbacks [not all of course like Ben or Eko], and now without them, there is still hate.
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His name is Pierre Chang. This was confirmed for us this past Comic-Con.
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I say A+ for both episodes!
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Can the court actually order someone do a paternity test and not tell the testee who is behind the order?
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Did anyone else freak the fuck out when you saw her? I yelped.
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I assume that as the season progresses, we will find this and other 'chance' meetings they have with people in the past are what has driven the past seasons all along. Ethan and the rest of "the Others" never explicitly stated that they hadn't seen or met the Oceanic survivors before...I think in the end, we'll find that a lot of Ben Linus and his group's motivations in the first few seasons stem directly from events that occured in the past. Now that's a mind f@$%K
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The woman at the end - was she in Desmond's flashback episode?
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That would be Ms. Hawking, the old chick who has a weird obsession with chestnuts and course correction. Yeah, she was in Desmond's flashback episode "Flashes Before Your Eyes."
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Don't get me wrong, I thoroughly enjoyed this Lost episode, but BSG's season opener still gives me goosebumps.
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It has already been explained on the show in the Dharma video that the energy on the island beneath the Orchid would allowed time travel. This would be done by harnessing the energy to create a wormhole. The fail safe wheel moves the wormhole, which would cause them to get dislodged in time and skip like Faraday explained.
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Richard Alpert met time-traveling Locke for the first time sometime in the distant past, then paid him a visit back in the 50s as a child (really their second meeting). When Ethan told Alpert he had seen a bald dude vanish in the forest, Alpert explained how Locke was unstuck in time and not to tell Ben because it would upset him to know he would be replaced in the future. So Ethan knew and kept his mouth shut and no paradox ensues.
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Oh man. I have to lay down to compose my thoughts.
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Miles (obnoxious psychic guy) is still a mystery. I haven't a clue about Lawnmower Man pilot. Charlotte was supposedly *born* on the island - so who knows what that excuse is.
The reality is (SPOILERS!!!) Rebecca Mader - the actress who plays Charlotte - was called away to do the latest Clooney/McGregor film. So the writers needed an out for her.
So she has no constant. -
Could he be the baby Marvin Candle and the woman had in the first scene?
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Jan 22, 2009 1:26:45 AM CST
lost is the only show that takes whats in my head and shows it
by ironic_name
can't wait for this to return. from season 2 onwards I've just 'gotten' it. like if I could translate certain ideas on time travel, quantum singularities, and
predestination. at the same time its frustrating predicting what will happen and then see it on screen . -
Heres some Lost stuff to keep you busy until nest Wednesday (updated regularly) Also please vote in the polls about what you thought of the two episodes.
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The 'energy' required to create a stable wormhole would decimate our planet. That's not theory - that's real equations. The most powerful particle accelerator we have - once it's fully operational - will MAYBE create a 'black hole' that will cease to exist once it's created.
I don't know about you, but I've always assumed The Dharma Initiative is like 'The Process' type cults that came out of the late 1970's. Really smart people who were disillusioned enough to forget their common sense.
But that's not the topic. We're discussing the potential ideas of theorictical physics regarding time travel, and how the writers could use them in the show. I'm loving the time travel storyline - I just want the writers to have some fun with *real* physics. If I wanted pure fantasy, I'd watch my Doctor DVDs. -
1) Why can Ben come back to the island now? 2) How come 3 years have passed and Ben still hasn't killed Penny yet? 3) Where those Vietnam-era Aussie soldiers who crashed on the island in the 70s en route to SE Asia?
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"I'd watch my Doctor WHO DVDs."
Goddammit Harry, join the 21st century and get an edit function for your forums! -
If Ethan were still alive in the present, he'd "remember" meeting Locke the same way Desmond remembered Faraday, methinks.
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an original universe could have been collapsed to create the wormhole. I have a short story somewhere in my brain about a box [more of a small light absorbing slab, like a handheld version of the sentinel in 2001] that can create nearly anything thanks to it's constant 'theoretical energy' supply. needless to say, I was amused* to hear the same thing mentioned [hypothetically] on lost. *actually I was screaming "thief" at the tv.
and I think that former nazi scientists discovered the island and started the first initiative.. alvar hanso was a former nazi, right? hanso and the degroots [good name for a punk collective] were working on utopian ideals at the hanso institute, if I'm remembering right. -
I think they do use real physics mixed with fantasy. The fantasy part in theory is that the source of the energy comes from somewhere off the planet, on an island connected to the earth through a wormhole, but the science is real.
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Jan 22, 2009 2:05:05 AM CST
I Just Traveled Back In Time and All I Got Was This Lousy Bullet
by scuzzy
Yes, this Ethan situation crossed my mind. I have to mine my memory. There is the possibility that Ethan DID remember, but at what point did we have the opportunity to find out? When he was doubling as a passenger he obviously couldn't spill those beans.
Thoughts on the premier and my dead lock winner for the post season 6 spinoff:
http://deviantknowledge.com/?p=1983
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in the photo on Brother Campbell's desk when Desmond left the monastery in "Catch-22" in season 3. I remember my wife noticed that one.
lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Ms._Hawking -
Ethan wouldn't remember Locke because they never actually met in the "actual" timeline. Faraday and Desmond never met at Oxford in the actual timeline either. Nether did Desmond and Hawkins. While they did meet in a way, it has no bearing on the time stream, since there is only one time stream that cannot be altered.
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Unless that collapsed original universe was the size of an atom, the energy required would utterly fuck our planet. The collective energy of our SUN would fail. And if we're getting into Eisen-Rosen Bridge wormhole ideas, there has to be stability. For Christ's sake, at least have the physicist character played by Jeremy Davies curl up fetal and weep.
And again, writers who use the time travel equivalent of Doctor Who's sonic screwdriver are LAZY. It goes back to the 'God wills it so." spiritual bullshit excuse. I'd LOVE to read to story inspired by Clarke's sentinels, but I want a Clarke-level scientific reason of why they can do what they do. Too many SF writers pull ideas out of their asses, and it insults the intelligence of their readers.
And it's unnecessary - because any book or grad student thesis on supersymmetry or M-theory will blow their 'bizarre' ideas out of the water. As a writer - I hope you take advantage of that - because you obviously have really good ideas to begin with. -
Think about it. -
just wanted to make something half clarke / half PKD.
but I can barely write what I'm thinking now. thats another reason why I love lost, the ideas I see in my head + character development and writing + music = lost. and I see what you're saying [at least till M-theory, which I've wiki'd but nut actually studied] re: hard science and explanations for the stuff on the show, but another thing I like about PKD and lost is that they do have spiritual an experimental sides.
but hey, different strokes for different folks. [still waiting for 'rent of the episode to finish] -
'sall I got
(for now!) -
Oyy, I need to watch this again! So much spinning around my head!
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the ill-fated nikki who was buried alive with paulo was the star of expose! i didn't remember this exactly, i just knew the title sounded oddly familiar, and, much like the wire, it's all connected, so i decided to check it out on lostpedia. i know a lot of people hated that episode, but i remember really diggin it. it was a bit derivative in terms of the lost folklore, but people really unnecessarily shit on it. anyway, just thought it was one of those cool little lost in-jokes with the hardcore fans. good god, this show is fucking brilliant.
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How exactly do you "suck a fuck"? I am still scratching my head over last night's episode. Was it good? Was it all I had expected? Did it live up to the eight month absence? All I can say is that I'm glad I have a DVR. I need to watch that shit again.
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time travel or these people being on an island and not fucking from sundown to sunup?
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Farraday said that the rules didn't apply to Desmond, because he's special. This would lead me to assume that the vast majority of people, including Ethan, can't have their past changed.
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I'm good with the survivors becoming unstuck in time, cool scenario with great storytelling possibilities. But the latest version of the island we saw in Season 4 -- the version with all the tents on the beach and the recently shut-down radio tower -- must still exist somewhere, progressing through time naturally, even if some of its residents have gone elsewhen. (Time-restructured place words never get old.) So why did the island disappear in the eyes of the people on the raft? Really only three explanations. (1) Lazy writing. Pure time travel shouldn't have disappeared the island. The island *itself* couldn't have gone back in time, since it would crush into the past version of itself -- two islands in one space is always awkward. (2) The donkey wheel both moved the island in when *and* where, so it's still out there somewhere in the Pacific, just not in the same region. More likely. (3) Something the folks back on the island do in Season Five in the past results in the complete destruction of the island, which means that like Desmond woke up on the sailboat with a new memory of Farrady, the people on the raft saw the new, corrected version of the world which included a lack of island. I'm going with #2.
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Just as an aside to the island moving in time and space idea, my biggest problem with teleportation of any kind has always been just the astronomical math that would need to be involved. We're on a planet that's spinning, which is in orbit around a sun, which is in orbit in a galaxy, all of which are moving through space rapidly at varying trajectories. If I disappeared and appeared in the exact same place *in the universe* two seconds from now, in those two seconds the Earth would likely have either moved two thousand miles away from me in space, or I would appear somewhere down toward the core of the Earth, depending on whether I was currently on the surface of the Earth facing toward or away from the point we're all moving towards. So to actually reappear in the same place but different time, or to teleport to a different place on the Earth but at the present time, whatever was moving me would also have to do some SICK math to figure out that where I was going to appear would actually be on the right spot on the surface of the Earth as the planet traveled by that point in the universe. Yeah, yeah, it's just a show, I can happily suspend disbelief, but dunno why no one's ever addressed this.
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Neil... we hardly new ya. You gotta love the inventive ways they keep coming up with to kill off the redshirts. Blown up by dynamite mid-sentence... buried alive... every bone in your body broken (scott/steve?)... and nailed in the chest by a flaming arrow while you go on about "just wanting some fire!".
I'm not sure if I buy Ethan remembering the Locke encounter in a dream (if he were still alive in the present) just like Desmond does, unless Ethan was somehow special like Desmond is. He and Locke had some dialogue in the woods in the first season, where he tells Locke that his name is Ethan Rom and that he's from Ontario. This is before the Clairenapping. I would maybe buy that maybe Richard Alpert told him to stay quiet about it though...
About Richard... why isn't he unstuck in time with the Losties? Are the Others who are at the Temple (they are still there, right?) shielded from the temporal displacement? -
FUN!! Pure, unadultriated TV fun. But, I think I'm going to have to watch it again before sharing more than that.
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Two things about Sawyers shirt - or lack thereof.1.)-When Sawyer wanted a shirt, why didn't Juliet give him hers? She has an undershirt on under her shirt and she was closer to Sawyer's size that skinny little Daniel and Neil. And, of course, Juliet running around with no shirt on would help boost the ratings.2.)-It's been pointed out that Neil was a 'redshirt' - and he was seen wearing a reddish brown sweater in the scene where Sawyer took one of his shirts. Interestingly enough, the shirt Sawyer took was also reddish brown, so now that makes him a new redshirt. Should we be worried?Also, I just got the in joke - that wasn't just Ana Lucia warning Hurley not to get arrested, that was Michelle Rodriguez offering the same warning to Jorge Garcia. "Don't get arrested, Hurley; if you do they'll fire your ass."And to all the people quoting John Locke's "We've got to see that again" - yes, you do. I just watched it twice and it stands up to and rewards repeat viewings.
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Totally exceeded my fairly high expectations (while I was somewhat disappointed with the end of last season). I suspect season 5 may end up being my favorite, and I'm guessing it will end up that way for many other people too.
I was always wary of the time travel element, but I love the way they are doing it, I never would have guessed that there would be ongoing jumps in time. Can't wait for next week. -
I called it last season when he first appeared, and the start of this season just makes it look that much more likely.
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I love lost talkbacks. They are my favorite ones. I love the big ideas spewed forth in them to explain things. Now, I haven’t been keeping up with spoilers or previews. I prefer to go in “fresh.” But, some of the things I’ve been reading, (seeing Dharma guys alive again, seeing the drug plane crash) reminds me of something I learned in College a few years ago regarding the relationship of Space and Time from an organizational stand point and how they may once have been the same thing.
Okay, to understand this, let’s talk about how “space” and “time” are different in how the organize points. We’ll use three points: A,B,and C. In “Time,” 3 points, A, B, and C, are organized in a strictly sequential manner. Think of 3 days. Monday MUST come first, the Tuesday MUST follow, then Wednesday MUST follow after that. It is impossible to mix up the order, and have Tuesday come before Monday. It is impossible to have the points go B, A, C, or C, B, A or C, A, B, or what have you. It must be A, B, C. It must be Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Right?
Now let’s think about “Space.” Three points in Space. A, B, and C. In space, A, B, and C are NOT strictly sequential. Think of three lawn chairs you’ve arranged in a triangle in your backyard, and have labeled A, B, and C. They exist simultaneously, and you are not bound to sit in them in the strict A, B, and C order. You could, but you could just as easily sit in them in B, A, C, or C, B, A, or C, A, B, or what have you. Spatially, there is no first, or last, or specific order. It could be in any order.
Thus, the difference between Space and Time. Time is arranged sequentially, and Space is arranged, well, spatially. But here’s where things get interesting.
It is theorized that Space and time did not fully form at the instant of the big bang. True, Space and time did become fully formed very quickly after the big bang, (less than one second,) but there was a brief moment after the big bang before Space and Time were fully formed. In that moment, there was something known as “Space-Time,” or Time and Space were essentially the same thing. What exactly does that mean? It might mean that “Time” behaved more like “Space.” As in, Time didn’t have a strict sequential order. Points A, B, and C all existed in Time simultaneously, but could be visited or perceived or what have you out of order, allowing for B, A, C and the others to be possible. Tuesday, then Monday then Wednesday. You could experience these days in any order you wished. (well, theoretically. Again, this state existed for less than one second.)
But I always thought it was a neat idea and would make for a great science fiction story, if someone could make time behave like space again. And I think that’s what lost may be doing on the island.
How would this work? These previews seem to be giving some idea. You could “travel through time” as easily as you could walk across your yard. In the one sense, as you walk across the island, you may see different parts of it in different times. You could see the Black Rock runaground, (however THAT happened,) you could walk and see Dharma at it’s height, you could catch Rousseau giving birth, and all that. Still though, that’s a simplistic way of viewing it. That’s like saying all the key moments in the Island’s history happen simultaneously in Space-Time. No. ALL moments of the island’s history would happen in space time. You could walk up to the Dharma initiative site and see it in full swing. You could walk up to it again and see it ruined. You could walk up to it again and see it as it was before Dharma came to the island. (One wonders if there’s a way to “will” what time frame you are viewing and area.)
Then there’s the matter that causality as we know it would begin to break down. In Time, it’s not just that A happens then B happens then C happens. It’s also that A causes B and B causes C. In the merged Space-Time though, where Time is like Space, this would get wacky. A would still cause B and B would still cause C, but it’s possible that C could then in turn cause A, and C could Influence B, and B causes C AND A. The Drug plane could directly influence Dharma. Dharma could meddle with the Black Rock. The Black Rock could shelter (or harm) Roussue. There are many and varied weirdness associated with this.
And what about death? Would the effect bring the “dead” back to life? Well, Yes and No. It would make “Death” less meaningful at least. Let’s think about Ana Lucia. She died. In Space-Time, she would still die at the moment Michael shot her, which we’ll call point D, (D for Death.) She still dies at point D. But, the frame of time she was on the Island and alive would be more meaningful. Because, during that time, she could experience things before point D, (A, B, C) and experience things AFTER point D, (E, F, G, etc.) From a continuity stand point, it would seem as though people don’t die or come back after they die, but in actuality no true Lazarus-esque resurrection has taken place.
Anyway, if this is the direction Lost is going in, well, that seems pretty cool. I may repost this after the premier in that talkback if I deem it still relevant.
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Wonder what episode will get back to that one. Daniel has a plan!Also, can't wait for the inevitable episodes where we get the story of the Black Rock arriving on the island, and Danielle's arrival!
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Jan 22, 2009 8:26:46 AM CST
Great, great first premiere episode; underwhelming 2nd hour.
by orbots commander
The first hour was superb, first season quality LOST. I wasn't too high on the second hour/5.2 episode which featured the wacky escapades of Hurley, Cheech and Sayid.
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The first was time-skippin/chrono-triggerin/frogurt-cookin badassery... with kind of a weak ending. The second was Weekend at Sayid's/!HOOOOOTPOCKETTT/setting things in motion for the return (in 70 hours! We're running out of time! DAMMIT!)... plus the second episode had the better ending. Also loved the shoutout to Expose! Will be interesting to see where the next episode takes it.
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Great stuff with the time travel shenanigans, but the dialog/direction is off. THE GOOD: Locke's Ethan-inflicted leg injury apparently affected him in season 1 when he was unable to walk in that area when Boone went up to the plane. ••• Kate has a good reason to start running again. ••• Ben is still has his own agenda. ••• Ethan meeting Locke may have led to Alpert seeking him out as a child. ••• The "dead Pakistani" ••• The Hot Pocket. ••• THE BAD: Characters keep saying things that we should just be seeing. Sun asking "You had me put in this room?", Sawyer saying "There was nothing you could do!" and Rose and Beranrd going on about the fire are examples when a simple "What do you want?", "Come on!" and a tense scene of Bernard quietly struggling to get a spark would have been more like the feel of previous seasons. ••• Rose and Bernard are just annoying and chatty. ••• Inventing the conflict of Hurley not wanting to lie was clumsy - nice on paper for the transition to Hurley helping Sayid, but would have had more impact if, on the boat, Hurley expressed his inability to lie to his mother specifically. We know Hurley is a terrible liar & can't keep a secret - the breakthrough at the end with his mother was good, but could have been better. ••• I like Cheech, but he was too light for what was going on. Did we really need to watch him make a sandwich, sit down, turn on the TV, then get up again. That could have been a much faster scene (even with the "Exposé" reference) and allowed for Cheech to at least hesitate for a moment before he trusts Jack. You know... drama.
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On one hand, FUCK YES LOST OMGZZ. On the other hand, I kind of hate that I'm having to ask these time paradox questions so much after 2 episodes. It seems like I'm spent the whole episodes looking for paradoxes and not enjoying the show...
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I think you're barking up the wrong tree. The fact that there's only one time stream means Ethan and Locke DID meet, for instance. What Faraday was saying was there's no point in attempting to change things, as all this has technically already happened. There was never a time stream or reality or whatever where Ethan DIDN'T shoot Locke. It's always been that way, Locke just didn't know it yet.
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thought there would be a bigger talk about Michelle back on the show.
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Or Alpert coached him and said not toe make a fuss when he met Locke the second time. Oh yeah, wonder what it looks like for the past people when the time shift happens? Do the Losties just disappear or some shit?
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She's always been easy on my eyes.
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Who is Martin Candle?
Oh yeah and who is Miles (Asian Oda Mae Brown?) -
Love the show but I cant stop focusing on the time travel thing and how it works. I understand that the Others cant travel back because the Losties went to a time where the Others already existed on the island. You cant have two Richards walking around, right? As far as not changing the past, what about Daniel and Desmond. He changed something to get Desmond to help them on the island. Desmond wouldn't have known to do this if Daniel hadn't met with him in the past and implanted that memory. So he definatley changed things. So why couldn't they tell the O6 not to leave if they were still on the island? And since Sawyer and Locke went back in time to a time when they already existed on the island would there be duplicates of them selves walking around? I am so confused. Can someone please explain this without getting into a long discussion of the "science of time travel". Also how would Alpert know when Locke would be there and he said "You haven't told me about the bullet YET" what does that mean.
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1)M rod is looking cleaned up and healthy. good for her.
2)i ealized last night if they took out all the overlong dramatic stabs and stares at the end of every single scene, one entire season would probably be two hours long. 3) i still love it though -
My theory is that Ethan is not one of the original inhabitants of the island, thus he's impacted by shifts in time/space. Richard, who appears unaged after 50+ years, and seems to be able to move back and forth rather freely from the island to the rest of the world, is one of the "natives."
I'm begining to think that we're going to learn a lot more about the original island inhabitants this season... with the intro (at least in talk) of Station Arrow. -
Did anyone else notice the twilight zone theme playing through out.its different but if you pay attention you can hear it.
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i've also noticed that when hurley talks (at least last night) they zoom in on him SO CLOSE his entire fat square head fills the screen ...perfectly. i understand he has a fat square head but they don't get that close to anyone else- and i'm just wondering if there is any directorial meaning behind this.
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Anyone catch that 30 minute 'here's what this show is all about' pre-show? They did a bio on every single character and never ever once did they mention Charlie - at all. The only time they even showed him was Hurley's hallucination in the police interrogation room. I can understand why Micheal/Walt were left out - that got stale - but Charlie was, at least for most of season 2, an integral part of the show.
lol Anna Lucia says, "dont get arrested...Libby says Hi." -
Before the first flash, Locke was surrounded by about 25 of Richard's 'others' and after Ben turned the wheel, they were all gone. Everyone else on the island was exactly where they were standing before the move, but Richard and his people were gone.
Clearly there is something different about them.
And those soldiers who grabbed Sawyer and Juliette - their dress looked like Korean War Era US military jumpsuits. Prior to that, US forces used pants and mid way into Vietnam, they went back to pants - but during the post WW2 through Korea era, they moved to a 1 piece jumpsuit. -
Ethan didn't remember seeing Locke because Locke hadn't time traveled yet. Desmond only remembered (dreamed) about Farraday once Farraday showed up at the hatch.
Somehow, the people on the island, despite traveling in time, are still connected to the time in which they just left.
Meh, it makes sense in my head, so I'm sticking to it. -
a tight closeup is designed to create an increased level of intimacy. When you talk to someone, there is generally a buffer of space - but when you narrow that space to just a few inches, the conversation becomes increasingly intimate. They clearly want us to embrace Hurley and feel close to him.
Unfortunately, its something directors will turn to when they feel their actor isn't able to generate this emotional intimacy on their own. -
Desmond is a special case, as Faraday pointed out.
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At first I also thought he called Druid Physicist Lady "Emmy Locke" (Lockes mother was named Emily), and I haven't rewatched it yet. But why would he ask the name of someone whom it immediately afterwards (based on their conversation) appears he already knows? I think what he actually asked her was "Any luck?" (In reference to her attempts to identify the "event window" to reach the island.
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i actually believed him there at the end. we were obviously meant to, but i also hope that ben's motives aren't totally selfish or evil. he's more interesting with those little peeks at a nice side,as is his plan. still, every scene with him and jack in hotels together had my mind playing the Odd Couple theme song.
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The Golden Rule seems to be You Cannot Change The Past, but the recurring theme last night was The Rules Do Not Apply To You. We've heard that in reference to two people: Locke and Desmond. While we have no hints as to why the rules dont apply to Locke, Desmond WAS able to move back in time, and while he was TOLD he cannot change the past, he WAS able to change the past by telling Penny to expect his phone call. He also changed the past by visiting Faraday and telling him his name, thus giving him his 'constant' which is suggested that he didn't have prior to Desmond's time jump. Maybe the rule has been obfuscated in that when they cay you cannot change the past, what they really meant is 'it is very important that you do not change the past' - a different way of interpreting the rule, if you will.
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I should also mention that yes, there could be two of whomever walking around on the island, and at some point there probably already has been. It's just that they never meet each other, through circumstance or because the time travelers judiciously choose not to.I assume the reason Richard didn't disappear is because he is some strange type of critter, of the island.
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*SPOILERY INFO HEREIN*
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Carlton Cuse said this during the intro to the segment about Sun:
"Sun is one of the Oceanic Six and she's consumed by the belief that her husband is dead."
wait what? Why was he tap dancing around Jin's death - I think they accidentally slipped on the fact that Jin may not actually be dead. -
Not to nitpick, but it was a 60 minute recap show. Regarding the exclusion of Charlie, I thought exactly the same thing. It even appeared that they edited him out of scene where Hugo drives the Dharma van down the hillside. I assume they didn't want to pay CM any royalties for appearing in an episode this season.
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I called this last season: anytime there is 'two of whomever walking around the same place", they'll hear odd backwards whisperings in the jungle. That's my prediction.
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I can't remember the details of the episode, but is it possible that when he told Penny to expect his call, he didn't actually change anything? I mean technically, it didn't happen that she IGNORED the call so he went back to tell her THEN she took the call. There was no instance of her not expecting the call, in other words, so nothing was changed. As for the time travelers, we know they're not going to interact directly with their past selves, or else they'd remember it already.
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which would mean no Charlie-ghost visits to Hurley. Shame. I was hoping that the time travel shenanigans on the island would allow us to bump into Charlie again :(.
Remember when Walt was 'special' and he was the lynch pin of the whole show? They wrote him out of the mythology as well. In cases like this, I almost think the new viewers have an advantage. They just think that Desmond is special to the island. For long time viewers, we think that the special was was Walt, then Hurley, then Jack, then Sawyer, then Mr. Echo, then Charlie, then Ben, then Richard, then Locke, and NOW Desmond. Its like the writers changed the 'special island friend' focus of the main storyline based upon who had a contract signed for the next season vs who was still in negotiations. Sloppy sloppy writing if you ask me. -
On time travel...why can't he just keep it at "course correcting" like Ms. Hawking said? We know, in Lost's universe, that the future is pre-ordained. But for Farraday to explicitly say that Sawyer can't meet Desmond in the past...well they already broke that rule. They broke it with Ethan maybe, then they broke it when whoever those people were attacked Sawyer and Juliet.
Unless...Farraday was lying about it just so he could talk to Desmond on his own. -
Desmond DID change the future. He saved Charlie from dying about six of seven times. Charlie still died because while Desmond could not change what ultimately was going to happen, he could manipulate the time and place of those events as to give them an important bearing on the future. Example: Had he let Charlie die from the lightning bolt on the beach, Charlie would not have swam to the Looking Glass Station, and would not have died in the communication room and spoke to Penny. Thus Penny would not know about the island, the boat, or that Desmond was even still alive. By 'postponing' Charlies inevitable death, he changed the future.
So while you cannot change the past from the perspective of destiny, you can shuffle the events of the past into any order you need to, in order to alter the future.
Marvin Candle said it himself: the power on the island would allow Dharma to manipulate time. He didn't say "change history" or "alter the future" he said "manipulate" - when you manipulate something, you simply fiddle with it, but you dont change it. You can manipulate a Rubik's Cube all you want, but you can't change it into an orange. -
was a red herring to get everyone to walk away so he could talk to Desmond himself. He needed to calm Desmond down enough to get him to listen to some very mind blowing things. If Sawyer was there, he would have run in like a smokey cartoon cloud of fists and feet, and taken food out - and Desmond would NEVER have listened to Faraday after that.
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Jan 22, 2009 9:46:55 AM CST
do you think this time hopping has been going on since season 1?
by arcadiands
the time hopping might be why the show was so flashback crazy early on - they were actually time skips before anyone involved knew what they were? Faraday's lab mouse developed an aneurysm and died but he attributed that to a series of tests over a short period of time. On the island, two jumps and his redhead girlfriend is already on the verge of dying from a brain blowout - and he seems to know alot about whats going on. If his journal told him that 'ginger' was going to die, then that means he himself has been time hopping for a pretty long time. The Present on the island is not HIS Present. He's from the future - otherwise his journal wouldn't contain any answers to his questions when he opened it. case in point: he wouldn't have known that Desmond Hume was his constant until sometime in the future - its not something he could have written down from the past. A constant is something you have to pick from the present that has bearing in the past. So his journal MUST be from the future.
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jesus christ people. some of the shit your throwing around about time and space is just...wow. donnadarko, you are right about position in regards to time travel, i totally appreciate your love of physics, but seriously, lost is not the right show for *that* level of science. any narrative that takes place solely on earth shouldn't have to worry about such things. i kept thinking the same thing about the grass or trees around them occupying the same space, but to be honest that would bog this show down way too much.i am happy to see them using time travel in the "timecrimes" way with causality loops. i'm sorry that a few of you don't seem to understand it. the past is unchangeable, those guys that locke killed were always killed by locke.and the lady with nosebleeds isn't forgetting her mother like back to the future. she is suffering some kind of physical ailment from the time travel, probably like previously mentioned lack of constant. though i'm not sure how i feel about that.and greenstyle i don't even know where to start with you. what you are trying to suggest is unfathomable, if time was no longer chronological how would you even experience it? reality as we know it would no longer be perceivable. it's contradictory to say time is spatial, and then to say "but we walk around and can see different locations in different times". what drugs are you on? what you are describing is complete fantasy and completely nonsensical. i blame anime for people like you. lets call it point 'a' (a for asperger)
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When he speaks, he sounds like an extra from a Johnny Depp movie. And he was mad at Sun for not showing him proper respect.
I think he's the pirate captain of the Black Rock - that's my guess. -
The redhead's physical ailment is a brain tumor. Its an early sign of the dementia that will be brought on by the tumor. It happened to Faraday's lab mouse.
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That kinda sums it all up.
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Ethan is the one timehole for me right now because as far as we know, he's not "special" like Desmond is... I don't think he should have shot and interacted with Locke unless they have a good explanation for it... like him being special.... or forgetful.... or under orders not to recognize Locke post-crash. I know he's probably seen some wild stuff on the island, but vanishing bald dude who knew my name and the name of my leader would leave an impression on me!
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how many years prior did they meet before ethan infiltrated them. maybe he simply forgot the brief encounter after 10+ years. maybe ethan went back and reported what he found to richard and richard was forced to explain it to him, because at richard would have known about locke all along.but seriously the longer they do this time traveling thing, the murkier it is going to get. i don't trust these writers to not screw it up, if they haven't already. and by that i mean the plane. didn't the plane fall over the cliff? wouldn't it have been in that state, when richard pulled the bullet out.and furthermore, i get how richard knows whats going on, but how does he know what location to be at certain times in the past?
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but yeah, 5.02 was kinda so-so. Now that so much is taking place off the island, trying to have Hawaii fake other cities is kinda obvious, though not at fake as Hugo finding a XXXXXXL shirt in a mini-mart.
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Locke was on the island at that time. Ethan had been sent by Ben to check them out, observe but dont be noticed. He meets Locke and shoots him because he seems to know something about Ben - so that makes him potentially one of Widmore/Dharmas guys. So he's gonna shoot him. Locke flashes away so we dont see the very next moment where Locke reveals something that only one of Ben's people would know like "I know about the (whatever?)" and Ethan lowers the gun and says, 'you're coming with me' and we discover that from the very start of this show, Locke knew who the others were, what was going on, and played dumb because he'd been clued in on the plan from the start. Its the paralel to Expose where they find out that the good guy running the whole thing was actually the Jackal all along.
Locke is The Jackal. So when he supposedly meets Ethan for the first time, he already knows that they're BOTH WORKING FOR BEN, and he and Ethan play along with the cover.
So there you go - non loophole sewn shut. -
he picked up what was a large at best and then he gets in the car and its the size of a boy scout's tent.
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I understand that Desmond changed things, but not things in the past - things that were yet to be. Anyway, his deal is different than those currently flipping through time on the island. His consciousness moved through time, whereas they are physically moving around in time. He could use knowledge of "future" events, such as he perceived them, to try and fiddle with things as you say, but he couldn't change something once it actually happened. That's what I'm talking about.
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if Charlie drowns, he doesn't swim to the Looking Glass, and then there's no contact with Penny, they think the boat is hers, and Keamy's squad carries out its orders to kill everyone. By fiddling with Charlie's destiny, he continued to 'reset' the future - and each time he saved charlie, he'd get a new vision of Charlie's inevitable death - until one day, he notices that while the death still is going to happen, its results are that they all get rescued.
and what did he say? He said he saw CLAIRE getting on a helicopter.
notice anything about that? IT DIDNT HAPPEN. Claire walked off into the jungle with Christian - the future was changed. We just dont know who changed it or how or why -- yet. -
1: Just like Desmond and Johnny 5, she is moving though time. The way it is being written for her is not spelled out like in "The Constant," is probably because the writers are slowly letting it develop. Of course if she has no constant, she's gonna die. Which looked like that in the previews. 2: Also, I know the constant storyline is great but its odd that none of the original Losties in season 1 never experienced this. 3: One more thing, Why did the Others move and not anyone else?
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Seemed to me that for a long time the sequence of numbers was very important - and eventually led to speculations that what we thought was The Present, was actually still flashblacks. Somehow Hurley got ahold of these numbers, and there are strong indications that the person he heard them from (Dave) was a figment of his imagination - which means the numbers came from his own head.
And that would only happen if he'd already encountered them before, and to such a level that the memory of those numbers were lodged in his head.
During the pre-show recap, they mention nothing about the numbers and how they were, for quite a long time, the most interesting and mysterious running theme of the entire show.
If that doesn't get addressed, resolved, I'm joining the 'made this show up week to week' camp. -
I said last season at the beginning that the island travels in time and that's why people want to control it. Sorry, just had to pat myself on the back for that one...
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Clair could still end up getting on a helicopter. It's 'Lost' so anything is possible...
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that I called it as being the Garden of Eden and that everyone was already dead and this was some kind of 'shrinking temporal reality' where folks were selectively being removed from Purgatory.
I dont think I get any pats on the back, but I still think it was a solid theory. Maybe I should start writing THAT show? -
Your whole Locke is The Jackal thing doesn't make any sense to me. At this point in the story this is PRESENT-on-island-Locke flipping through time physically, not some Locke that will end up on the flight at a later time... from my understanding they (or the island) is physically moving through time... not just their consciousnesses... but who knows.
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You’re words that don’t qualify to outside real life reference. You don’t make up the fuckin’ words of the sacred language system. You just apply ‘em appropriately. You have to use abstractions. That is mathematically balanced there. They don’t mean any fuckin’ thing. You’re just mocking the language system by making up words that don’t exist. They have no value schemes at all. They don’t say anything. Polly want a crackeeeeeeerrrrrrrrr. If you can’t do that, don’t fuck with me. I’m a yoga. I’m a yoguy. I am the source and I am the guy. Yo my gal I yoga. Haha, you get it I’m an American? I’m hip. Suck me off and get smart. You get smarter every time you suck my peter. I’ll let you suck my peter for $50,000.
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Although last night's episodes were great, I was really hoping to see how Locke would lead The Others! Damn, the bald knife throwing fool can't get ever get a break. (Well, except when it comes to windows....)
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To Ethan's point of view I think Locke vanished. Otherwise, how do you explain him laying there years later in the future with the bullet in his leg?
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are they physically moving around, or are they doing a Desmond and their 'spirit' if you will, is flipping around to random points in their own personal life - we dont know yet.
And we also dont know what happened after Locke vanished. Maybe Ethan goes back to Ben, says, 'holy crap a dude just vanished' and Ben knows what it is and says something vague and cryptic that makes Ethan go "uhh...okay.. I guess?" and then returns to his primary mission.
I think Ben makes EVERYONE go "uhh...okay..." and then they follow his instructions. Hell he makes ME do that. I actually packed a suitcase 3 quarters of the way through last night's show. -
You are an idiot. That is all.
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because of the properties it has...healing for example. what's the point of time travel if you can't change anything?
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Is it possible that the guy who gave Hurley the numbers was not a figure of his imagination, but rather a time traveler?
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I remember before the WWW when people used those programs on usenet. They're the internet equivalent of Vaudeville.
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KNOWLEDGE. You don't have to be able to change the past of the future in order to benefit from the knowledge of what happened/will happen there...
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Hurley saw him when people didn't. He put an arm around him for a photo, and in the photo, Hurley was alone. If David vanished and travelled away through time, the doctor taking the photo would have checked himself into the facility as a patient.
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...the past 'or' the future...
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Jan 22, 2009 10:26:36 AM CST
Hurley didn't get the numbers from his imaginary friend...
by turketron
He got them from the crazy guy... the guy who started screaming "YOU'VE OPENED THE BOX!!!" when Hurley told him he used the numbers for the lottery. Sam Toomey and that guy were at a listening station when they heard them...
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You went for line drawings and you fucked up you fuckin' idiot. You brain-washed yourself you mother fuckin' stupid cock suckers, because you never studied your Holy Homework. That's two capital H's there, all the rest are lower case in any fuckin' case. Supreme Court, you are not the fucking Supreme Court of anything, except Hell! For the next ten thousand years you will shovel your shit and eat it, because you're on repeat mother fucker. It just started backwards and you can't do a fuckin' thing about it. The public are gonna take back every fuckin' thing that you took away from them you mother fucker.
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"...the island will take care of the
rest." Richard to Locke after dressing his gunshot wound. -
That seems about right. But there has to be something going on that makes the people know things that Hurley does not. A figment of your imagination can only know what you know...you know?
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Yeah, Jor-El I was thinking the same. Whidmore wants the Island for something, most likely to exploit is unique powers. I mean, if I were him I'm sure I'd try and use it to wipe out my enemies. But if you cannot use them like Candle said in the cave, whats the point? I bet Whidmore in his arrogance destroys himself in the cave. (Or Des pops him.)
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Why do people like you waste your time and my time like this. Go away.
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Once again, he changed HIS experience but the objective experience that we view was not changed. In fact we don't know what the phenomenon is exactly with him, but essentially it's like he's having visions of POSSIBLE or maybe probable outcomes. He's NOT going back in time and changing something that has actually already happened. I already said this. I probably will say it again.
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If you can control an island that allows you to travel through time, the knowledge you could gain would allow you to control virtually anything on Earth. It's like Bill Murray said in Groundhog Day: 'Maybe God's just been around so long that he knows everybody.' Controlling the island could make you like that...
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Nobody recognizes that. Sorry. Take it easy. Just trying to bring a little levity into the convo, but I was too obscure.
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I'm a n00b.
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How dare you, Carlton and Cuse. Ben is my hero. Okay, a mildly psychotic obsessive megalomaniac, but... well... COLLAPSABLE BATON TO THE FACE!
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Ok a few quick theories...
Charlotte is the daughter of Juliet and Sawyer. She is getting sick because she was born on the island, and they now exist in a time when she was not born yet.
Penny or Emmy Locke or whatever the old ladys name was, is part of some order that monitors time and keeps it in tact or something like that.
Ben is a part of that. All of the decisions he has made have been based on the fact that he cannot change any events himself because he is not from our Lost timeline.
This would officially render Ben a good guy because he was fighting to make sure no one would fuck with time yet he never did anything truly evil because everything that happened would have happened whether he was there or not. He was simply a guide.
The Locke that is dead in the casket is a Locke from the future that was sent back to help encourage the Losties to return to the island.
Lockes Dead body will dissapear (Like Christian Shepards) when they arrive back at the island, and Locke (who will exist there in his present time) will be alive, unaware of the fact that his dead body was sent out to the real world.
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some folks need a new surround system. He said to her, "any luck?"
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we know they are physically moving in time because when the white flash happens they are standing exactly in the same spot but in a different time. completely unlike desmond when he was traveling n his own conscience. we can safely assume ethan saw locke disappear before his eyes, because of this and because richard also said he "disappeared". your jackal theory is a no go.
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I stand by it - we'll find out eventually that Locke wasn't who we thought he was from the moment the plane hit the beach.
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Explained it much better than I could. So, what's up with Ethan? Any other theories?
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"Im not coming out, so go ahead and shoot her if you wa*BANG**THUD*....he broke the rules."
So if you cannot change the past, explain why Ben said that when his daughter was killed. He was so confident that wouldn't happen, but then someone changed the rules and she died.
Which makes you wonder something: If the rules dont apply to Desmond, is there anyone else that they wouldn't apply to? Maybe the Captain of the Black Rock found an old mayan cave and a funny ship's wheel, and he turned it to see what would happen. -
it wasn't Ethan - it was Smokey.
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That recap show wasn't good in many respects, brotha. Sun got a recap, but not Jin. They also didn't give us a breakdown of Bernard or Rose, and those two have been present and relatively important. No breakdown of the scientists as individuals. It was kind of rushed and felt a little half-assed if you ask me. Which is fine, since the episodes themselves were kick-ass.
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Unless you're getting hot pockets flung at you. Sorry rumpspringa!
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If she had looked that good when she was on the series as a regular fans wouldn't have wanted her to leave.
Fun episode. Too much Hurley. I like Sawyer/Juliet as a team or even a ship. -
Wasn't really much of a recap... for someone who has never watched the show... they'll still be confused as hell. I felt like it was actually just a good little refresher for us fanatics... a little pregame show if you will.
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Hurley didn't get the numbers from Dave. He got them from a (as far as we know) real patient at the Santa Rosa Mental Hospital, named Leonard Sims. So your premise that Hurley got the numbers from his own head / imagination is not correct.
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was to try to make the show watchable for people who either skilled whole seasons, or never saw the show before - so they keyed in on points that would be 'required reading' to watch the upcoming season.
which means that for the purposes of the upcoming season, one doesn't have to know ANYTHING about Charlie. They briefly mentioned the numbers during the Desmond portion - but only said, 'he has to enter a sequence of numbers into a computer periodically or the world will end' they didn't explore that they were Hurley's lotto numbers, or any of the other occurences of them we've seen so far.
They also dont even MENTION Walt. So from this point on, know knowledge of Micheal and/or Walt is considered germane to the upcoming storylines. They've all been 'written under the rug'
hell, the four toed statue and the polar bears even got a cameo during the recap - but Walt? No, Walt never happened. -
Damn it.
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this site sucks. does Mori's site have an edit?
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i gave you my theories on ethan, up a bit after you asked the first time.
and arcadianDS, why do you think ben's daughter and those "rules" have anything to do with time travel. i just assumed he was talking about some sort of rules of engagement. like nuclear family were off limits between him and whidmore. -
It's a bit of a stretch to asset Ben was talking about time there. Maybe he was but I don't see any reason to assume that.
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Jan 22, 2009 11:17:06 AM CST
crimson... i like the idea about richard explaining it to him
by turketron
Hell, it might have been the reason for Richard realizing that Locke truly was "the one" in the first place... thought that could get paradoxical.
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I have always had the feeling Widmore was on the Black Rock. Either captain or first mate (I'm actually thinking Jacob was captain) That Abbadon was a slave on the ship. When the island moved the last time it appeared under the Black Rock, thus the ship in the middle of the island. Richard was on the vessel as well. War broke out over possession of the magical island, Jacob and Richard VS Widmore and Abbaddon. And that war has been played out for hundreds of years and the Losties arriving with the island's "savior" John Locke (both sides seem to want him)is the tail end of this particular story of the island (I'm sure there are many since the ascent of man--we are merely watching the latest). Anyway, there seems to be an Event in the future caused by either faction that might mean the destruction of mankind (oh no, a Buffy apocalypse!). What we have been seeing up till now is the island and/or time "course correcting" itself to bring the Losties to the island. Manipulating time to get them to this Event to Save the World. These flashbacks we're seeing aren't really "flashbacks". Its time being manipulated. Maybe Kate didn't kill her stepdad the "first" time. But--SHIFT SHIFT--she does kill him to get her to the next shift which will lead to the next shift which will finally put her on the island. And obviously not just her, everyone on that plane that has to be there. That's why there are so many coincidences, its just time/space course correcting itself out. Does this change things, an impossibility according to Faraday? Perhaps Kate's stepdad accidentally left the gas on himself the first time but course correcting it so Kate does it gets her closer to the island.
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I wonder if that canister he lugs down to the chamber is going to serve some purpose... I think we'll see those events play out later. He does have a dharma video to shoot with him!
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Who is to say it's an actual rule? Maybe he's just saying that to keep the Losties from fucking up the time line too much. If it is a rule, I'm not sure I like that too much. After all, those flaming corpses that were left behind will be noticed by someone. It's a rule that doesn't make much sense in light of any butterfly effects.
And while I get not trusting Ben, Hurley thought his best option was to go to jail for murder? Why not just call up jack on his cell to figure out what's really going on? Either way, it should be interesting to see Ben bust him out.
It looks like old lady time charted the islands new position to be somewhere around the Marshall Islands. But she said that Ben only has 70 hours to get there? I guess that means the island is still moving. Do those moves correspond with each time jump then? -
Saved his own ass with Desmond. In the closing moments of "The Constant" Farady reads in his journal: IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG, DESMOND HUME IS MY CONSTANT." Guess what fools? Shit has gone wrong. So, by stopping Sawyer from barging in the Swan station and probably getting shot, he backtracked and set up the first part of the constant rule. He met Desmond, now Desmond is going to do something on his behalf. Which should solidify the connection.
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there is no butterfly effect. those people died in the past, their bodies are either where they fell or the attackers took their bodies or maybe boars dragged them off to gnaw at them but in the "present" those bones exist somewhere. according to the show the past is unchangeable and there is one timeline. locke killed those two guys in the past and those lostie extras died on the beach and those things happened before the plane crashed. so in theory neil could have built is hut on the beach on top of his own bones, buried in the sand.time travel wise it all makes sense. the problem is if the writers had thought this out they should have laid the groundwork for this in season one from the beginning. because now we have to suspend disbelief and explain away things like why does ethan not say anything about having met locke before, or what happened to the flaming corpse of neil.
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I also still don't get why (in physical facts of the Island properties NOT the writers not having thought of it yet) the ORIGINAL Losties did not get any of the symptoms related with coming to the island.
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Why did just The Others disappear? Why didn't Juliet and Charlotte vanish as well? Or is only effecting the original inhabitants of the Island?
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i wonder why richard and ethan weren't affected by the "record skip". i'm assuming that it's because ethan, richard and the oldtime "others" are part of the island in some way. something to do with the toe-statue.
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You nailed it.As far as laying the groundwork earlier, I'm pretty sure that wasn't possible as they hadn't thought it out yet, at least in season one. An easier solution might have been to, you know, NOT have Locke interact with Ethan. In fact seeing how they could have avoided the potential inconsistency very, very easily - by having some other dude shoot Locke who doesn't feature so prominently later on, for instance - I can only assume they did it for a reason. Hopefully it wasn't just so we say "oh snap, it's Ethan", because that moment wouldn't be worth the headaches otherwise involved.
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The Tenth Doctor: "Well, what have we got here? A big old island being all wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey. And who's behind all that, eh?"
Daniel Faraday: "Um...We're trying to..."
The Tenth Doctor: "Oh, and look, you've got an unstable energy source hooked up to a donkey wheel! Mind you, I've seen a lot of unstable energy sources and I have to say, a donkey wheel is a bit of a surprise..."
Daniel Faraday: "Yeah...I was in the process of calculating the precise turn needed to reverse the wheel, but...um..."
The Tenth Doctor: "What? You mean like this? Allon-sy!" * Reaches out and gives donkey wheel a big push backwards *
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Whose to say the dead bodies won't just continue to skip along in time with the other unstuck survivors? We know inanimate objects can make the trip (the losties keep their clothes for instance) so as long as Neil's body has soaked up the same amount of temporal radiation as everyone else, it will go along for the ride.
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Torture, dangerous spinal surgery, an army of mercenary commandos--nothing can kill Ben except Hot Pockets. It's his Kryptonite. If only the survivors had used Hot Pockets in the first place, they wouldn't be in this situation.
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There were so many good one liners. I think Richard and Ana L's were particularity funny. (Not to snub Hurley and Ben)
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i've always seen the flashbacks/flashforwards as true jumps in time, just like desmond was experiencing. only he was 'special' and could realize it and make mental note of it to change things a bit. question is, how did he become 'special'. by birth or by science?
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THAT is very well written Tennant! Why WOULDN'T the Island be a place that attracted the TARDIS? He's been pulled to more ridiculous parts of the universe.
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After the Swan station imploded. That experience and what was told during "Flashes Before Your Eyes" is part of it. If the flashbacks/forwards aren't just the writer's way of telling the story and we are truly experiencing the losties or anyother person dealing with time-shifting then I think they would have died already from the same symptoms Desmond and Johnny 5 suffered (and now Charlotte) from in The Constant.
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now that Ben isn't around to control it? Maybe it has an agenda of its own. Maybe it even hops around in time. One of the wierdest scenes in the pilot ep of 1st season was when Jack and Kate run into the smoke monster. Kate runs in terror and hides in some trees, freaking out. Later Jack calmly strolls up and says he escaped it. I always though there was more to that scene. Like he had a run in, like Juliet, Eko and Locke.
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Some of you have mentioned it... but yeah, it's weird. If the Losties are affected and not the Others for some reason, what about Juliet she's an other.... she shouldn't be skipping right? What about Colleen (the stewardess) and the kids that were taken by the others? Why aren't they skipping (or are they)?
Here's a weird theory... all of the non-survivors of the 815 plane crash... the ones that were dead in their seats inside the plane. How did they die? I wonder if it was from not-having-a-constant sickness. But then... how did the survivors live? That's still a mystery that I hope is resolved at the end of the show. -
the implosion of desmond's hatch was the catalyst it which point he gained access to all points or tangents of the time-line. and it was only in one of them in the past when meeting Faraday (who- didn't he look older and more crazy in the past? if i recall?)-where he grasped what was going on and could retain enough memory from each jump to manipulate things. only by this reasoning, he should be, and always have been, all-knowing of events as they relate to him, and not have ever been a naive guy trapped in a bunker because someone told him to.
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Most people aren't going to remember the face of someone they saw for only a minute or two, so that explains that.
As for the bodies of those dead people, it doesn't matter so much what happened to them. The act of them being shot at is itself an effect on the time line. The rule must be more about affecting destiny, like not being able to save Charlie. But then, I don't see how destiny factors into a physicists' equations.
While I'm sure it won't happen, I wouldn't mind them bouncing far enough back in time to see the entire four toed statue. -
This is true, which is why his weapon of choice is the extendable baton. It makes swatting incoming hotpockets out of the air much easier than shooting them.
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Charlotte was born there, yet she did not disappear when the island moved. People like Juliet were brought there, Coleen, the Losties. Is it possible they have not run into their other sleves on the island at that particular point in time? Or here's probably the most obvious reason: Only the original inhabitants are the ones to move with the island
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It just seems unnecessary that they would choose Ethan for the scene, as Thunderbolt Ross said, knowing that it might create inconsistencies. I don't buy that Ethan wouldn't recognize him. He just shot some guy who moments later knew stuff about him and then vanished into thin air. That would leave an impression. I like the idea of Richard explaining things to Ethan more, but that's just me.
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During the pilot, there was no constant rule. So I'm betting they died in the crash. In the flashbacks in the cabin before the plane separates, you didn't see ANYONE with a nosebleed or related symptoms.
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Coleen was Pickett's wife tha twas killed by Sun on Des' boat.
And by the way, I have no fuckign clue what is happening with this show anymore. This time travel stuff makes no sense to me. It's cool to see but I'm struggling with makign sense of it all. -
I think it would be cool to see the other POV. Like, to show how Ethan reacts after Locke vanishes. What he tells Ben or Richard. It's possible he does and Richard brings him up to speed.
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Der....So, in reality, if she was hanging in that group Locke met up with after leaving the Orchid, then she woulda been left alone with Locke right? WTF Damon & Cuse?
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Danielle nor Alex suffered from the sickness that her crew experienced...time skip sickness ala Minkowski (also Desmond and Charolette) or the "cabin fever" that Zoe Bell experienced that cuased her to jump offthe knife--Richard seemed genuianly disturbed when John chose the knife as something that "was already his" does the knife signify who actually controls the island? D&C in one of the commentaries or specials or something compared Alpert to Cheny (i.e the real power), someone above mentioned the war between Abaddon and Widemore vs Jacob & Richard. Ben was a figurehead, not really the power, Locke though, Locke is different, the knife was already John's. John needs to continue to relay on his knife. That was the point of S2, John gave up the knife in favor of the "compass" (the hatch) and it led to his downfall and loss of legs, when he went back to the knife is when he came back.you guys are getting fate and the future mixed up, the future can be changed, but fate cannot. Charlie was destined to die, he and Desmond just controlled the circumstances. When Charlie made contact with Penny and warned Des, he changed the circumstances...he manipulated the future, charlie still died, but the future had been altered
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Noob question yeah, but I've been on here for years and I still don't know how to do it. Help a mofo brutha!
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how pissed would we all be if they pulled a 'Dark Tower' and the final scene is Jack's eye opening ala the Pilot?actually that ight be kinda cool way to end THIS season, then all of Season 6 is trying to fix all the shit they did wrong, bringing back Shannon Boone, Arzt, Charlie...etc, Jack leading them to the Others
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less then sign ()
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How did he change circumstances when your saying Charlie's death was fate?
I don't get it. Given the ending of season 2, Penny already knew where the Island was and was heading there.
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I think this actually exceeded my expectations. It occurs to me that this what Heroes should have been by now....compelling and mindblowing. I felt like I had watched a movie last night, not 2 hours of network TV. I disagree with Herc about the 2nd hour...I loved every minute. Sayid - I want to drink a beer with this dude. The scene with Hurley and Ben...outstanding. I can't remember a single thing I didn't love last night. If they can keep this level or even close for the final episodes, this show will have a large footnote in television history. Happy happy, joy joy!
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Hot stewardess and the kids who were kidnapped from the Taillies side. Where they be? I haven't watched last year's finales yet but I can't remember if all the Others were with Locke. Were they?
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fucking dinosaur site with no edit button :/
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This has been established on several occasions.
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if faraday is right, that there is only one timeline. in one timeline, they are not "affecting" the past, they "are" the past. there would not be some original timeline where flaming arrows were not shot at the beach, or where those two men don't die at locke's hands.yes, this can be kind of hard to understand because it is a predestination paradox and a causality loop. i invite you to read a few wikipedia articles:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predestination_paradoxes_in_fictionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_loopeveryone should watch last years "timecrimes", it is like the ultimate movie about this.
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Yeah man, I posted that earlier in the talk, but THE minute they vanished, I was like ok, seems original others are gone.....Immediately thought of Cindy and anyone else who was nabbed in the 1st coupla eps.
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I remember it being speculated on that Cindy was in on it all along, but then again, who knew that 815 was going to crash on the island? (<)
Or are you saying Cindy was successfully converted to the Others, cause regardless she crashed with the Losties who are skiping thru time while everyone else shifts. -
The idea that "sure, you can travel through time - but it's impossible to change anything because that's not the way things happened." In other words - the course of histories events, time travellers included, is already written in stone. Farraday didn't change anything - it just happens that what he did already happened, even if we didn't see it before... and even if Desmond didn't remember right away.
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I am not mastering this line break shit.
I followed with: Are you saying that Cindy was successfully converted after being captured? Cause yeah, we have been knowing that. I'm saying if that's the case you're saying, then she crashed like everyone else who is remaining in place while the island shifts/skips in time. -
the line break is (br), but replace the parentheses with greater and less than symbols.
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he says that time is a straight line and can't be changed because he doesn't want anyone attempt anything major and fuck up the one thing HE is trying to change. everyone else just needs to hide or stay out of the way. it seems obvious that his goal is to aid charlotte, keep her alive, reveal her constant...something....
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Can someone answer me this? Why was Desmond in the hatch? I haven't gone back and watched the show, but I counted three time displacements. The initial one back to when Ethan shot Locke, the second one when they went forward and the hatch was already destroyed, and the third one when they go back to Dharma time. It's after the third one, though, that they knock on the door, right? So why is Desmond in the hatch? He had only been there a few years and didn't arrive until after Ben exterminated Dharma. Or am I missing a time-jump? Thanks!
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fro mthe affects of the timeshifts. that's why Ben had them go there, seeign as it's "just for them" and is a "safe place."
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you can also usegreater thanthen P less than.
the P marking a paragraph break -
Who's to say they went back to Dharma time when they shifted to the point when Des was in the hatch? There is no evidence of that.
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Was there something more to Juliett's outcasting ceremony...
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Ok, thanks for clearing that up. There are still other Others in the Temple. I couldnt' remember if they had left it or not.
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but that doesn't explain why richard wasn't displaced with locke standing right next to him. i always thought richard was not quite human or something.
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Yeah, I was also thinking the same cause Des was only in there 3 years. But that coulda been anytime and Farady just got lucky. I was actually expecting Kelvin to roll out of there. Regarding Desmond getting to the hatch, he crashed on the island in Whidmore's race around the world and Kelvin (the hatche's original inhabitant recovered him and took him there, setting him up to be his relief. If the others KNEW about old Dharma people in the hatch, why did they give him a pass during the purge? Pressing the button is one reason, but what was going to happen is Kelvin died and Des had never crashed there?
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Yes, the temple would be a good idea for protection, but they weren't anywhere near it when Locke showed up. So, it couldn't have been that important.
Especially if Richard wasn't there. -
I speculated earlier that it probably just the original inhabitants of the island are the ones who shift. The people who aren't moving all crashed or were brought to the island.
That's why I was questioning Cindy. -
Darlton says the island AND the people are moving. They also recognize that some people are not moving like Ethan, and that certain groups are moving together but wouldn't expand further.
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i was just about to say that...who at some point in the history of the island, or dharma, were exiled, rebelled or escaped from the island. possibly the act wiped their memory or they did it on purpose... because as we see, there was more than just coincedence- there was almost a conspiracy to get them all on the plane in the first place. so either they were being brought back against their will, or were being retrieved after sentances served off the island, or because without the originals, all is not right on the island.as for no one telling them all this, well, they have to rediscover it for themselves...though all of the others pretty much act very knowingly around themwithout ever going into much detail. to explain to someone who has been wiped and sent through time exactly what is going on would be like waking a sleepwalker or a diver getting the bends.perhaps too, they chose their names and characteristics of their off-island lives based of of some of the very books in the book club or literature?
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What I'm asking is this: we only saw them shift time three times, correct? If that's the case and there was not an offscreen time-shift, Desmond should not have been in the hatch at that point. Or am I forgetting one? And, yeah, during that scene I was half-expecting Clancy Brown to pop out, until I realized Faraday needed his Constant.
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Naaaaaaaaahhhh. Nope. Nope. Never.
Ok, we've flashed back in the first 4 seasons to points in time where we saw Jack, Locke, Kate, Sawyer, Hurley and maybe some I missed to points where they are CHILDREN!
So you are saying that they were on the island as kids, grew up and all left at certain points in time and then all got on 815 at the same time? Really? I mean, I like speculation, but that shit's a longshot man. -
Ben's people had surveillance cameras in Desmonds hatch so they would have known if Desmond and Kelvin had died and they needed to send replacements to that hatch to press the button. I guess they didn't kill Kelvin during the purge (Desmond wasn't there during purge) because they'd rather keep him in there pressing the button than sentence any of their people to that mindless task.
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Its funny you mention that cause with Des being in the hatch, who's to say Jack and the O6 won't pop up?
Desmond left the island with the O6 and HE'S the ONLY one who can re-appear in the time shifts? What about the rest of them? Charlie? Boone? Eko?
I think it would be interesting to see if it is due to Desmond's specialness, and not a writer flaw. -
but heh, maybe they are implanted or born off the island on purpose, though their genetic stock originated on the island. Locke's mom getting knocked up seemed pretty intentional.
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But regardless, they were gonna have to send someone down there anyway. Or hell, they coulda took shifts. Plus, find it funny that Kelvin could go thru the jungle in bright ass yellow and not be discovered by the Others repairing the boat.
Or even running into the smoke monster to! -
The question is: is the Black Rock missing its wheel? Because ancient four-toed beings wouldn't have carved that wheel. It looks 17th or 18th century.If we concede that they had a "Mayan" like society, they probably had the magical knowledge to tap into the properties of the island but they probably did not move it because they hadn't hooked up the wheel to it.
Therefore Jacob/Abaddon/Alpert/Widmore were the ones who started all the time travelling and wars. It would be even cooler if two of them like Jacob and Alpert predated the Black Rock and were fighting to this day to restore it to the original "Mayan" owners. All four of the individuals left the island at will and are immortal, possibly because they travelled in time to the future and comitted suicide. That's what Ben has done and now Locke has to do it. If I go to the year 3000 and kill myself, I can't die until then. Desmond is the unique case of someone who turned the failsafe key and will be given the power to see everything in real time. He and Faraday have to put the universe right by killing the 6 immortals.
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Yeah, but they really didn't get to the island 1st. They just time shifted there before the real 1st inhabitants got there. It's an anomaly.
I get what you mean, but if I time traveled to the US before Columbus discovered it, it don't really make me the original inhabitant.
I just uniquely traveled in time. I didn't do it through a natural course of history or fate.
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Yeah, when Juliet and Sawyer first saw the legs of that Dharma guy creeping around, I thought it might be the "original" Locke (based on the fact that they had established they were in a time when Desmond was on the island)! This show is a mess of paradoxes now. It's best just not to think about it.And for those talking about Desmond *OR* Kelvin being there prior at the time of the purge, neither one really makes sense, given that Kelvin was in the Gulf War with Sayid.
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That's a good point actually. I wonder if it is really the helm from the Black Rock. And if so, when was it put there.
Candle and the miners showed a scan of it existing before Dharma ever did anything with that station. -
they shifted back to a time after the hatch was imploded, then the yshifted back to before it was imploded but after Dharma. that's when Faraday found Desmond. Afterthat they shifted again t owhatever time includes these soldiers.
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Yeah, there are some good time travel questions (not as bad as Hereos) but I'll just go with the flow and bank on Desmond being special is allowing him to be seen or appear on the island when it shifts thru time.
I guess the losties could always get back before no one got there and start from scratch. Somehow living with the others, war settled, no problems, etc. -
He's orchestrating everyone getting back to the island, but is he actually going with the O6? I know he said he could not go back, but if the O6 can go, I wonder why not him?
Just sayin' cause why wouldnt he be able to tag along in whatever method of transportation they are planning to take back and just ride in with them?
I know he said he can't cause he moved the island, but well......fuck. -
Six immortals, six sacred numbers? Perhaps this was their code name or rank or even their midichlorian count to use a ridiculous metaphor...
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wow it all went super scifi batshit insanity, love it
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He may have said whoever moves the island can never get back simply because he knew they were transported off the island and that it couldn't be found. It doesn't have to be taken literally that he can't go back becasue he moved it.
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Yeah, I'm wondering the same thing. Also, if Sayid is done with Ben and only does the opposite of what he says, what was he doing at Hurley's mental hospital still killing people? Is Sayid killing people with his own agenda now?
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Yeah, I just didn't know if it were an island property repelling him. I mean, You could always have a great scene where when the O6 are about to get to the island, Charles Whidmore is waiting.
Ben, travelling with the O6, leaps to battle on some Whidmore co landing station and does battle to let the O6 get back.
I'm envisioning the Cyclops in Krull sacrificing himself at the Beasts moving fortress...
But then what would be up with Ben in season 6? Flashin fool? -
Yeah, I guess they have a falling out somewhere. Sayid ain't no fool, so I'm sure he picks up on something Ben is being shady on.
Yeah, so why would Sayid come to Hurley now after he stopped working with Ben. It's probably something that Locke says to him later on in the season. -
the original inhabitants, or even people who accidentally came or discovered/chose to live there (like the black rock crew)...can live forever but cannot reproduce. a gift and a curse. eventual in-fighting or insanity or struggle will ensue on an island of bored immortals. but if they leave the island, they will die as normal humans do. at some point perhaps some choose to leave the island and live normal lives, others hop back and forth, like roger- but that is tricky. it's obvious there was some effort or program to reproduce off the island. ben, jack, claire, locke are all proof of this.....then they are brought back..the children of the island returning or being called home.. some unknowingly. the originals have all the time and means to orchestrate this and have been doing so for a long time. whether this is just so the originals who chose to stay can simply enjoy having children, or if this is some effort to bridge the gap between the immortal originals and normal humans so that mankind can benefit from the island's properties or be demi-gods (ala this centuries old eugenics experiment)is the question.
there are holes in this theory i can't figure out though: hurley and his parents being one big one. -
If Farraday hadn't said anything about the rules...or rather if the writer's hadn't introduced that. Ms. Hawking's explanation about course correction is much easier to understand and also easier to get around in terms of continuity. Her explanation of the guy in the red shoes dying is perfect...and the same thing goes with Charlie and Desmond trying to save him. Why they chose to have Farraday say that Sawyer wouldn't even be able to meet Desmond is beyond me because it a.) limits them if they're going to actually follow the rules or b.) makes them seem like liars every time they break them.
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...Ben is just a liar. He might have been feeling petty and wanted to lay one final guilt trip on Locke.
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I wonder if we'll ever get a flashback ep....ah shit wait nope! I was hoping for centric eps featuring Richard, Danielle and Whidmore and maybe Abba-lam-a-ding-dong. (otis!)
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cause I wanna know where that boat was going, how the flip did it end up there and what happened when it did. I'd love to see Ben or the Losties get ahold of that diary too.
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seeing as how it's so far from the shore, i think it was just sailing along when "PLARP!" the island appeared basically under it.
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jack is his own dad and claire is actually his daughter and sister at the same time. wrap your minds around that.
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*Imagines BSG special effects of Island appearing under the Black Rock* BLOOP! "OH SHI---"
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Was the same one that Richard Alpert showed to Locke when he was 10 years old. Did anyone catch that?
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Actually, yes. A FTL jump would probably made for a better effect than "BLOOP!"
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Great lines too. "It point's north" and "What goes around comes around."
I saw the premier last night in Manhattan with a meet-up.com group and the lines got a huge pop. Not bigger than Hurley throwing the hot pocket tho -
The numbers have already been explained. But not on the show. It happened during the internet game "The Lost Experience".
http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Valenzetti_Equation
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Forgot the GLASSES!
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Loved your Doctor Who thing. Thanks for the smile!
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But since we (currently) have no evidence of off-island physical time travel, then the whole "rotation of the Earth thing" is explained away by the time travellers being bound within the sphere of influence of the island (explain THAT however you like... energy field's maybe).
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It's when Faraday is trying to tell Desmond his name, and Desmond wakes up from the dream.
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someone said that the island- or anyone- traveling through time and space may find themselves floating out in space because of the rotation of the earth, as well as the earth around the sun and even our galaxy m oving through the universe.....but that is not thinking relatively. the bending or manipulation of time and space are relative to not only the thing involved, but the nearest gravity or pull. that goes for black holes or planetoids. surely that process WOULD be bound to the nearest source of gravity - the center of the earth in this case. so while you may not end up drifting out in space, you may find your island in the middle of a city along the same path of rotation as your original location. but you can also say the island probably does have it's own mysterious center of gravity, and therefore is in it's own sphere that is not bound by the larger universal paths and law.
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Same flash was shown twice, i think. two different perspectives.
ALSO, time did not change with those soldiers being killed... They always died at Locke's hands. The same way that sometime in the past, Richard and locke will meet for the first time... Richard remember this because it already happened in the time line. -
yes, it shouldn't happen unless the island can teleport to different oceanic locations programmed into it. otherwise, the island should still be visible, but anyone approaching it is just brought into another time -or better yet, another place. deflected randomly by the island's sphere of protection/space-time bubble
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and then locke went back and changed it. The flow of time always had those soldiers dying at the hands of a man from the jungle...
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Had to work, missed this, decided to try to download it, then my internet went out and now I'm on some public shit internet. MY LOST PREMIERE HAS BEEN RUINED BY REAL LIFE!!!
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Not because of some mystical force protecting it, but because the past already has the actions of the time traveler's accounted for. It is more accurate to say "You won't change the past, only contribute to it" (Desmond, of course, is our exception). When all is said and done we should (hopefully) be able to stand back and look at all and see how it fits together.
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Farraday doesn't mean that you're not allowed to do something like that, just that it won't happen even if you try. Something will stop you - because they are operating in the past, and from an objective perspective, they've already appeared in the past. It's kind of like this Hulk story I once read. Bruce Banner saw an ancient cave painting that featured a figure that looked suspiciously like the Hulk. Next thing you know, he's been transported in time and the story unfolds that led to that cave painting.
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I don't think the island existed in space-time the way a normal island does (there is evidence enough of that from last season). In order to "experience" the island one needs to "synch up" with it. Previously, that had been easy (by comparison, anyhow) in that one could sail to it or crash on it. Now, however, the island is skipping like a record and hopping over moments in it's previous physical existance. Essentially, the island is "out of phase". My guess is either it has no physical existance until it synchs back up sufficently OR it's trying out new physical locations until it synchs up OR Ben has 70 hours (or whatever) before the island is completely out of phase and the island is lost forever.
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What I don't understand is why Farraday thought he could talk to Desmond, or depending on how you look at it, why Desmond didn't already remember the conversation. He wakes up in the middle of the night and has a new memory? That's what it sounded like. If that's the case, I'm not sure how it fits into the phenomena of the island skipping around in time and/or Desmond's own ... condition.
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On the flipside, we're about 100 plus episodes into the series so we should know these people inside and out by this point. It just seems to lose something intangible without the "Fwwoooosshhhh - somebody's storyline" to give each episode a center. you can kind of argue that episode 1 was about Daniel and episode 2 was about Hurley, but it's a bit hard to say so. I don't think it's really a huge plus like Herc seems to think.
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Has become a unique temporal being and Faraday knew or suspected it or whatever. Essentially, in regards to Desmond, "new" events in the timeline can occur... or at least be manipulated. Basically, the past is all accounted for, except were Desmond takes a hand in it.
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so, in the sense that traveling into the past is limited to observation, because everything has already been situated to deflect you from changing things or encountering yourself. not thoughtfully or purposefully, but just as it is.
then what does travelling into the future do? the future of point B that you reach is one that has been affected specifically from your absence since leaving point A. aka, a world in which you disappeared back then. the idea of killing yourself in the future- or just dying by accident for that matter so that you will be immortal up until that point...isn't possible. if you are dead there is no you to travel back and exist until that future point happens..it's just the equivilent of driving into a wall at full speed. you can haowever visit forward and go back with knowledge. knowledge you can probably profit from, and have that be 'the way it was always supposed to be' but this will only ever be accomplished by the first person to visit the future and return, and then no more. -
he just wanted to get Sawyer away from the hatch so he didn't scare Desmond into such a state, that he was unwilling to listen.
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If he LEFT the Island? Why arent we seeing (or will see) any of the O6?
Why does that apply to him? Is it the writers bailing out Farrady? -
I recognised it. It's the rantings of a looney man that is sampled several times on 'Robbin the Hood'
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Well said, that's how I understand it. You can go to the past and mess around there but it won't affect the timeline (except in Desmond's case because he's special). Also the present is not relative, it is a fixed point (2004). So when Faraday talked to Desmond in the past, Desmond remembered this in the present (2004). Am I close?
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Nothing we know about Hurley would EVER compel him to glare at Sayid and say "dude someday you're gonna need me help, and I aint gonna help you *MEAN GLARE*"
totally NOT Hurley. -
Charlie was supposed to drown, then get electricuted - neither of those deaths would have resulted in contact with Penny and an early warning that people on the freighter are not to be trusted. But he did change it such that while Charlie had to die, his death served a purpose, and that purpose certainly would have changed the future if he hadn't died in the Looking Glass station.
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ToughGuyRizzo asks "Why is Desmond in the Hatch?" Answer: Because they went back in time to a point when Desmond was still in the hatch.
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Desmond is special because he is both in the past on the Island and in the future with the Oceanic 6. By Faraday speaking with him in the past it created a memory in which Future Desmond would have. That is why he is special. Its like communicating to the future.
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I'm not gonna worry over that too much in context of LOST. However, in a general sense, we are always travelling into the future, aren't we? Skipping over bits and chunks of it is just an extra fancy way of doing it.
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That AND I think his incident when the hatch blew also means he is more free to mess with time's constraints.
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I think Desmond can recieve information from the past which will change "present" actions but the "rule" is wise as we don't get a complete clusterfuck of labirynthine timeline changes rewriting history and rendering actions moot with a big fat reset button. (I'm looking at YOU Heroes, actually I'm not. I gave up on that crud LONG ago)
Just wasn't keen on Sun as "avenging angel" didn't suit her character to me and I find her "blame" game pretty fucking arbitrary at best. Still she MIGHT just be reeling in Widmore to REALLY hurt him I suppose. She still has to go back to the Island and I suspect her motivations will change particularly if Jin interacts with her "somehow". -
So I'm sayin' will the Losties who stayed run into their other selves? What about the O6? Will they show back up? Odd.
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Everything was so fucking great with the exception of that fat annoying a-hole and Sun (the Sun as Sympathy for Lady Vengeance seems kind of corney) Please Please less Hurley, don't turn Sun into Lady Vengeance. Everything else was great.
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I guess I am not clear as to what you are actually wondering about. Sorry.
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Try as he might,Michael could not kill himself because,according to Mr Friendly,the Island wasnt through with him.Locke comes back to the US and dies.Wouldnt that mean the Island had no more use for him?Why would Ben drag his stiffening corpse back to the Island?Of course,if Locke is still alive and he and Ben are pulling a fast one on the Oceanic6,i reckon it doesnt matter.nevermind...........
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Even though Desmond is special, how can he be off the island and then on it during time shifts?
This would mean that if the island time shifted to a week after 815 crashed, Sawyer, Jules, Farrady, etc could run into Jack, Kate, Walt Michael the Losties crew right? Just as the island shifted to a time where it was Desmond pushing the button and Farraday took advantage ot if. -
I was wondering about that too. Perhaps the losties will run into their former selves. Or... we know that Desmond was affected by the hatch. He is the only one (xcept Faraday) who has time traveled before and the only one who has his constant. Perhaps this is the reason why he can be in both places?
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I really hope that they will wrap up all loose ends and not just pull a Heroes and hope that we are all ignorant.
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writing down everything people say here so they can use it..because yes they are probably making it up as they go along based on points people bring up online...;)
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I think I get what you mean. Go with me here. Let's take Fraday's rule about changing the past at face value for this discussion. When Sawyer from season 5 (let's call him SawyerS5) timeskips to season 1, there are two Sawyers on the island at that time. Now (and remember, we are accepting the no changes rule as fact), we know from watching season 1 that the Sawyer from that season (let's call him SawyerS1) never saw himself, thus we know SawyerS5 will not interact with SawyerS1. He may see him at a distance, perhaps, but nothing more.
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Now, if back in the first season SawyerS1 had a vision of himself passing on information or leading him somewhere, we as the audiance would have chalked it up to Smokey or other island oddness. This would open up the possibility of SawyerS5 interacting with SawyerS1.
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....to say that you can't interact with yourself because it already would have happened -and it didn't, so there. it's not that they didn't use that encounter in the first season(s) because it was never going to happen in their big plan, it just means they hadn't thought of using it back then, and now are covering their continuity-asses by saying 'if you didn't see it, it didn't happen. the time string is a pretty solid cover for their linear 'build it as we go' approach.
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Quite true... I'm not gonna worry over the "whys" of it all. At the end of the day all whys become "they wrote it thus". Just trying to sort out the "whats".
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If the "can't change the past" rule proves to be false, then all bets are off.
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okay. theoretically let's say that sawyer B from the future IS seen and talks to sawyer A in the past, and it actually WAS in season one or something. Future sawyer B is already from a definite future where he met himself in the past. therefore he is not surprised by his encounter with sawyer A, although A is surprised by B. what does sawyer B say or pass onto A? information he thinks will solidify or aid to create the future he is from? why? it has happened where he is from, there is no need to, especially if he remembers meeting himself in the past.only if someone has fucked with the past would someone need to go back and try to steer themselves to create the future they came from. for the most part, writers have relied on the 'they can't see themselves or time space will explode' crutch because they never bothered to try to think of the implications. it does hurt your mind.at least whith the changable past, you can have tangents or parallel worlds that spring from every action. however, that would mean that there are infinite ones and we exist in all of them all the time based on every second that each of us could have done something slightly differently. the 'straight, unchangeable line', while a good writing device to cover your tracks, almost makes time travel not only pointless, but possibly impossible.realistically, the creation and initial use- forward or backward- of a time machine, would cause the timeline as we know it to no longer exist, and the new starting point of all time itself would be the initial use of the machine. the user would then experience every trip into the former past or future, as stops along his own future. does that make sense?
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In context of LOST (based on whopping two episodes) I think loops won't be an issue because they are experiencing multiple time skips. Stuck? Skip! Not any more. Proceed with the drama.
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The power of McWeeny compels you! The power of McWeeny compels you! The power of McWeeny compels you! The power of McWeeny compels you!
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Thanks for the BttF quote! :D
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once a time machine is created and used for the first time, then there is no longer such thing as linear time, but radial time, all spoking out from the time the machine is used. the thing is, if a scientist built a time machine tomorrow, and was crazy enough to go back and manipulate time, how would we know that it was manipulated? only he would. we would live in a world where everything is as it ever was or happened from our point of view. now imagine if everyone had their own time machine and used it as they wanted. one guy wants to go back in time and ask the girl out he never did...and does. that girl now wants to go back in time and move somewhere else before creepy guy hits on her, and does. one guy wants to go back and kill hitler...and does. another wants to go back and help hitler win, and does. and it happens every day but unless we do it, we never know our world has changed.
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Fortunately, LOST has no such worries and can be as linear or non-linear as their storytelling desires to be. :)
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firstly, DAMN Juliet has some nice cans - been a while...
Daniel and Charlotte - I got the funniest feeling like maybe they're related? I mean, maybe not necessarily brother and sister - maybe something even stranger, like mother/son - or even father/daughter??? Could be completely wrong - it's just a... hunch...
So in those periods when the group which includes Juliet were on the island before and after the hatch was blown up, were there TWO JULIETS on that island??
The people that tried to cut off her hand - they were Dharma, right?
What the hell kinda freaky game is sun playing? If those weren't her lawyers they were The Wid's - yes I originally thought they were Ben's but it doesn't make sense for him to make her run like that - he'd be better off making sure she stays put so he knows how to get his hands on her...
Maybe the Frozen Donkey Wheel really IS the steering wheel from the Black Rock?
Oh yeah - great little exchange between Locke and Batmanuel - not so much the lines as the delivery!
L: What's is this?
R: It's a compass
L: what does it do?
R: It.. point's north, John... -
Jan 22, 2009 5:46:35 PM CST
Love how the group of survivors always magicaly grows during act
by evil hobbit
Love how the group of survivors always magicaly grows during action scenes, and then magicaly reduces back to the core characters once they caught some bullets, or in this case, flaming arrows.
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actually THIS is what was making my brain hurt - so we all saw THE ISLAND move, yet this episode seems to suggest the island didn't budge but in fact the PEOPLE moved - through time!
So which is it - or is it both?
Did the island move or not - and if so, did it move through space, time, or both?
Abot the Earth moving on without you and all that (something I brought up a coupl'a seasons ago when the idea of time travel was first floated) I think it's important that you are CONNECTED to the Earth when you shift.
So, for example, just like the clothes you are wearing, tho not really PART of you, move through time with you because you are physically touching them, I think it is also important that because you are connected to the Earth (you have your feet on the ground) when you shift, you remain connected the Earth...
Which again brings me back to the island moving - say it DID move through time - but CONTINENTAL DRIFT accounts for the moving through space part? Is that even close to resembling feasible?
Anyway, my mind is going - I can feel it... -
... not to cop-out on your question, but it may be a little bit of both. Remember Faraday's example of it being like a record that's skipping? The "move" through time is probably not akin to a lateral shift, as common sense might imply. Since Faraday has also implied that time has a way of self-organizing events in a manner that ensures there is order, that provides a "cheat" which allows the time-shifted characters to not be shifted with one arm stuck in a tree that didn't exist 20 years back, hovering 15 or more feet off of the ground (which would occur, considering the variance of the Earth's orbit), automatically experiencing extreme neurological trauma, etc. You bring up good questions, though. The writers may look to explain more, though I doubt it. With so much story to develop--- and viewer hatred for excessive exposition, Faraday's explanation will likely need to be sufficient.
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...just before Locke steps out of the jungle. Maybe they were Danielle Rousseau's team? They had accents and didn't seem like Dharma peeps.
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...time travel/time shift device? Why was it buried under the area being excavated? Is Richard part of that race?
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So, some questions:
1. So, would the whispers heard since season 1 be the Losties shifting through time and that is basically the voices of themselves?
2. The army guys were the ones that dropped the knife Ana Lucia found?
3. When Richard was in the 50s and John picked the knife which pissed Richard of he was really supposed to pick the compass. Richard was waiting for that.
4. Danielle's group got the "sickness" which was actually them arriving on the island at the wrong coordinates which resulted in them getting the "time shifting disease" that killed Fisher Stevens? Danielle did not get sick and therefore must have had a constant (her daughter?)
5. Jumping. Juliette jumped because she is not originally from the island. Same as Miles, Farrady and Charlotte (contrary to what she thinks). Cindy and the kids not jumping is interesting. Remember "The List"? Maybe all the people on the list are somehow original inhabitants. The list has still not been explained. Hopefully this is not getting into reincarnation.
6. I'm liking the talk about the original flashbacks yet there was no bright light and the wheel had not been turned so its most likely not the case. However, I do think that time may have been manipulated to form all those coincidences that brought all these people together on that plane.
(BTW, the wheel being the Black Rock wheel is an awesome observation). -
You and I (and a few others) are on the same wavelength in regards to the time travel, except I'm still not sure about Desmond. When Farraday talks to him, I don't see why that would be anything but a normal memory, just as if Sawyer had talked to Sawyer ... something that Sawyer would remember, as you've noted. So why is it that Desmond didn't already remember Farraday talking to him? Are we to assume he just forgot somehow then suddenly remembered? It ends up seeming like his specialness is that he is just incredibly forgetful.
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... by a reasonable person's standard, yes. However, the writers have already established that Desmond's consciousness has the unique ability to shift through time. Building off of what we learned in "The Constant," this season's premiere showed that while Desmond's moving consciousness cannot grant him the power to change the past, it can *definitely* allow him to affect the future. Walt, in a similar fashion, seems to be able to shift through space, and Hurley can do something along the lines of "seeing dead people"... though the unique gifts of most other 815 passengers have not yet seemed as clear. Of course, were you to ask any questions regarding "how" Des and the others gained these abilities, you'd be asking most of us to go someplace the writers likely won't. :-)
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... the wheel coming from the Black Rock; yes, great observation. This also calls to question Jacob's cabin (which has been jumping for quite some time, now). I previously thought that the shabby cabin was built from the remains of the Black Rock (some time after flight 815 came to the island), but that might be too much of a stretch. Still; it *would* support the notion that Jacob is Locke's dad... still chained-up similar to the way that Sawyer left him.
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he isn't bound by the same rules. He can get messages, they can interact with him and change his past, but you cannot change the past of the world at large... or something.
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But has been bitten by one of those spiders that got Nikki and Paulo. He would look dead but could later be woken up. Ben has lied before so maybe it was just a trick to try and draw some of the O6 out of hiding.
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First what I can't explain: I can't explain why only the castaways and freighter people move in time. As specified by Daniel, the island does NOT move in time itself. It probably moved geographically.
What I can explain: By moving geographically it is off the rails of time. But only the castaways and freither people move in time. They can't move at a time where they're on the island so I suspect that Faraday goes to see Hume (Desmond) before the oceanic crash but after (of course) Desmond's arrival on the island. So let's say 2 years earlier. Desmond is special, just like Mrs Hawkins, he can change the course of the past which as warned by Mrs Hawkins may have catastrophic consequences. But other peopke can't change things.
What they do, they're time travelling is part of their original course.. they were suppose to time travel. So what they do in the past has already happened that way. The past is their future. The only one that can do something about it is Desmond.. but at what cost? -
Or at least, he didn't violate it. Not changing the past means you can't prevent a known event or cause an event that is known not to happen. There was never reason to believe that Desmond and Daniel didn't speak outside the Hatch at that time.
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The more I realize I'm totally confused. I hope the writers know what's going on because I don't
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Ok. So if the past is the past is the past, then why does Locke not remember meeting Alpert or getting shot by Tom Cruise's brother?
Forgive me if I am way off - this requires me using a part of my brain that's a bit stale. -
That is all.
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I love that bizzare combination of retro technology, heiroglyphics, math equations. Reminds me of the wheel, Ben's secret room, four-toed statue, and when you don't push the button in 108 minues. Seriously chilling
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I understand the basic idea of Desmond's unstuck consciousness - I think. On the other hand, the idea of "changing the future" is a bit muddy, since the future hasn't happened. All we know is Desmond is changing things as he sees they are going to be ... If they were things as they ACTUALLY were, then - well, they'd be in the past. It's less that he has the ability to change the future than that he can see a potential future and try and affect it. Bu as we saw with Charlie, even those efforts are eventually undermined by the universe course-correcting after his interference.That all being said, I'm still unclear as to the nature of Desmond's condition as it applies to Farraday somehow taking advantage of it in this episode. Was that moment a change, or did it already happen, but was not shown? And if it's the latter why did Desmond forget.?
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I think I have somewhat of a firm understanding of it, so here goes. The show subscribes to space/time theories that have constantly been either alluded or even used as namesakes (i.e. Minkowski's spacetime, Hendrik Casimir [Casimir effect], Michael Faraday [Dan's namesake], and Stephen Hawking [Mac from It's Always Sunny reading this in episode 6 season 3]). All these people, more or less, agree to the specificities of how time/space work and relate to each other, albeit with some differences of thought. Essentially, Lost takes the idea that the future can never be changed and eveyrthing that HAS or WILL EVER happen in our world has already been done. Now while this may sound like a determinism argument, that's why the creators named Desmond after David Hume, a Scottish philosopher who, among many of his thoughts, is famous for compatibalism, which is the idea that FREE WILL and DETERMINISM may coexist, or moreover, they may be intermingling with each other and cannot exist without the other. Desmond, in sci-fi terms, is the one unique person outside of this deterministic string, which makes perfect sense for him to carry the namesake of a person who believed that the two things arent mutually exclusive. So it's either that Desmond is THE ONLY ONE who can change the future, or, if we stay with strict Faraday calculation, he was already pre-destined to be the savior, and eveyrthing that will happen has already happened; despite the fact that as we watch this linear narrative unfold, certain decisions are causal to future events (when they're really not)
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Jan 22, 2009 9:36:27 PM CST
You may be onto something Re: Free will vs determinism
by dapper swindler
Free will vs fate is supposedly the theme of the show, and we've seen a lot of this. It was once said that the Dharma Initiative's purpose was to change the numbers (4 8 15 16 23 42) which somehow determine when the world will end. It's been said that the Initiative failed and we are "still within the tyranny of the numbers" or something. The Dharma Initiative failed to save the world just like Desmond failed to save Charlie, you can't change fate.
Or can you? I think that is what everyone on the island was trying to do. They weren't just trying to figure out time travel. Time travel is apparently simple, but it only limits you to observation and you don't have the ability to change anything. The experiments on the island were designed to change fate itself, so that the world could be saved from its fate.
I predict the show will end with the cast somehow saving the world from its fate, freeing it from its determined destruction. And Desmond is somehow an integral part of it. -
While it's true that it's absurd to say time isn't "chronological" (since by definition it deals with time), time is indeed another spatial dimension - it's just one that we perceive very differently because we're "trapped" in it. It does indeed act just like another kind of direction, though, at least as far as modern physics (the Hawking/Greene kind, at least) goes. Just like the other directions all exist at once, the passage of "time" is also something of an illusion - all of existence exists at the same time, we just observe it in a perceived order, kind of like how all of the pages of a novel and the letters on the pages all exist at once, but we read them in order so perceive some as occuring before others (or, to be even more analagous to the show, like the grooves in a record all exist, but when we listen to music we move a point across them to perceive the signals encoded in them in a certain order).
"Dimensions" are all spatial in nature - it's part of the defintion of "dimension." We just seperate the "first three" from the fourth because of the nature of our experiences. -
Kudos.
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The island itself exist in a different space/time, that's why it can't be seen to the outside world. Remember to get to the island you have to travel a certain bering. The island didn't move, just the bering on how to get there changed. So therefore it stayed in the same spot, just the path to it changed.If you remember in the episode "The Constant" Faraday warned you must stay inside the bering or else, when Desmond was on his way to the freighter he moved outside the bering and became unstuck in time. If turning the wheel moved the bering, then all the people left behind moved outside that bering as well, causing them all to become unstuck in time and needing a constant like Desmond. The constants being The Oceanic Six, or they will all die, and perhaps that connection from this world to to island could dissapear or worse space and time could become unraveled and destroyed itself!
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...or maybe Rose & Bernard.
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This is different than when Desmond was jumping time in The Constant. Locke and the rest are *physically* moving through time. Locke doesn't remember because while they happened in the Past (that is, the past of the island), it happened later in Locke's life. However, Alpert and Ethan *could* remember meeting Locke at those times. Locke said enough to Ethan that this could be the whole reason Locke is so revered by the Others. Ethan goes back and tells the Others about a man named John Locke who said he was coming to replace Ben and then disappeared.
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"But Sawyer," Juliet said, "don't you need a shirt?"
Sawyer turned around, his weird-shaped, not-that-muscular-for-a-heartthrob-actually body glistened in the glow of the Orchid's emergency lights.
"Shirts? Where I'm going I won't need shirts."
hilarious. Read more...http://tinyurl.com/d9jxfx
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I gave it some serious thought after I watched Ben kick ass with it.
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The difference is that Desmond's consciousness moved back in time and not his physical being. Maybe the writers see those things existing seperately and that it's possible one could move through time without the other or in an extreme case both could move simultaneously. It would certainly explain why all these dead people resurface everywhere, their bodies vanish, and we hear "voices".
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Thanks for putting it so clearly ... Though on the other hand, I more or less understood it as you describe it. More than that, I instinctively agree with that view of time, the kind of Tralfamadorian view, if you will. What I DON'T get is the functionality aspect of the interaction between Farraday and Desmond. Was it an anomaly, and if so what exactly happened? And as I said before, if it's an anomaly (ie Desmond's specialness comes into play) why is that necessary when you could tell anyone in the past something and if it's real important they'll remember it. Now that I think of it, I don't remember what Farraday said exactly.
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I actually just received a piece written by a physics professor at my old university, and it basically pins down the time travel theories that Lost is using. (here's the link if you want to read it:www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4266329.html?series=6). Ultimately, what he's saying is that there are two popular time travel theories, both involving a river as an analogy. The one that Lost is using is where a river is flowing and a whirlpool (or maybe a Maelstrom) can form and a person floating in a river can go back to a previous point, but can't change what has already happened. Another popular theory has to do with parallel dimensins, or rivers in this case. Where one river can branch off of another, and the person at this bypass can change either of the paths, depends on whcih path that person chooses to tread on. So if Lost uses the former as the blueprint for time travel, and Desmond has broken out of that construct, maybe he has the ability to foresee and change parallel universes (such as the example in the latter). Maybe that's what they mean by him being unique and special. In the pure sci-fi narrative of Desmond's unique position of being unstuck, Desmond was closest to the electromagnentic blast of the hatch, thus making him detached from space and time. HOWEVER (and there's always an however), I can also just as strongly argue that Desmond is not special, and everything that he is doing has been determined already. After all, why did Desmond only get selected glimpses into Charlie's fate? It was the deterministic will of the island to lead Charlie make contact with Penny, subsequently leading Penny to ultimately find Desmond.
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As in, it didn't move in a geographical or physical sense. What the O6 saw was a surge of energy, that flash that surrounded the island. By the time the energy surge was over, time had elapsed for the O6 to the point where they were farther along in their flight FROM the island. Maybe they (The O 6) have such a connection TO the island, that, although THEY aren't jumping around in time, their witnessing of the surge allowed them to see the time shift from the outside. What they witnessed was a lapse in time equivalent to the time it would take them (and the helicopter) to fly far enough from where it physically was...it was like a fast forward. It's the reverse of what Sawyer and them are experiencing. To Sawyer and everyone with him, the island stays in place. To anyone outside of the island that is IN motion (As in, on a chopper LEAVING the island) time is all screwed up thus perception of how far or close the island is changes. It would be like riding in the back of the bus and looking at your house get smaller and smaller then all of a sudden it's like watching a film that skips--all of a sudden you've jumped three blocks ahead and of course your house is no longer within sight.
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Why didn't Desmond recognize Faraday when they met back in season 4?
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beardos? weekend at sayid's ? ...and found? don't let sun go down on me?
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i better get some sort of shout out in the liner notes, because i already copyrighted the phrase.
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The cabin was built before the crash of Flight 815 by Horace, a member of the Dharma Initiative. And the idea of Jacob being Locke's dad makes my brain vomit.
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First up, the fact that the earth would move and you'd likely end up in space, etc. There could be a workaround to this. Where one is in space is completely relative. Sure you could use the center of the big bang as your bearing, but it doesn't have to be. From your own perspective, you are still and everything moves around you. This could be said of the island moving through time, but grounded in space. Especially since it's what's emitting the negative matter.
The big problem I have with physical time travel is when they keep their clothes and what they're carrying, which is what made the internal time travel so unique. I mean, where's the limit on what you're carrying, or wearing? Couldn't you just say "I'm wearing this entire island as a fashion statement." and move the whole place? -
..and the others arent. Something that the producers said, how everyone on the island who stayed made a conscious choice that they will be staying on the island for a longer period of time. Like sawyer jumping of the helicopter and Juliet letting other people go on the zodiac before her. Richard and the others have fully emraced the island, cindy and the children, therefore they are presently just "jumping" with the island as it jumps through space. So sawyer and gang are instead "jumping" through time, as the island moves in space. because they are truly not one with the island, if you will.
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In last weeks rerun we saw Sun tell her father she blames two people for Jin's death, and he's one of them.And we heard Jack start to say "Sun blames me..." but trail off before completing the sentence.This week she tels Kate "I don't blame you" and unless she's being very cunning, she doesn't seem to blame Widmore. But she wants Ben Linus dead.It makes sense that killing Kearny caused the freighter to explode, so Linus indirectly caused Jin's death. But how would Sun know that? Did she have an off-island meeting with Jeremy Bentham?
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that Sawyer stepped on and got stuck in his toe?
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The first episode showed us that the Faraday Memory was retrieved in the form of a "dream". That is why Desmond wasn't able to recognise Daniel in Season IV. Besides, Desmond wasn't good at recognizing ppl in the first place! :P "Are you him!?"
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Saw it again last night and have a few thoughts.
The men at Kate's door that I originally thought were hired by Ben were instead hired by Sun. Yes, Sun. Too coincidental she called Kate when she did...Kate being on the run and not knowing where to turn and all.
Jack is conning Ben. I know I've said that before, but I'm almost certain of it. The drugs and boozing were real, but he did it too convince Ben of him being that messed up. He's doing this to get back to the island because he realized as soon as (if not before) Penny's boat was seen that Locke was right when he said he'd been lying to himself.
Ben has 70 hours because Ms Hawkins has pinpointed when the island will appear in their time. So I guess that means the island is moving too.
Time - in some research I did in the off-season, I found aboriginal folklore. I did this because Hurley told Sawyer that Australia was the key when Sawyer decided to take Siberia in the game of Risk and because of something on the Ajira Airways site that said something about ancient Australia.
I tell you this because in aboriginal folklore a place is sacred as it holds all time - past, present and future. All memories of that time are there always.
Faraday unlocked a memory in Desmond by beating on the hatch. The memory did not change the past, present or future. Faraday also said the island was unlocked in time, so what the folks on the island are seeing is the memory of everything that ever happened or will happen there.
Darlton figured out a way to tell us the backstories of the mysteries by showing the history of the island as it shifts in time with our LOST friends. They satisfied the sci-fi geeks and mystery geeks and who knows who else. These folks are brilliant and they are making TV history...and we are along for the ride.
Please buckle up and keep your hands and heads inside the craft at all times.
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.... -
I'd like to hear more about this idea of unlocking a memory ... What did Desmond's special status have to do with this? That's what I don't get. Not to mention why would you forget something as bizarre as that, especially if you've been isolated for a long time. You'd probably remember this weird dude showing up then disappearing in front of your eyes.
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Due to the time skips (and who knows what other unique properties of the island), the next 70 hours from the Season 5 present are very significant in regards to making contact with the island. Now, the reason Desmond doesn’t remember meeting Faraday in the normal way is because that encounter is outside normal time and is thus not a normal memory. Let’s call it a “time edit”. So we have this “time edit” out there trying to work itself into the timeline. For whatever reason (actually, for dramatic purposes), the “time edit” can’t catch up to Desmond until that 70 hour window of importance, during which it hits him and integrates into his brain. OK, so why didn’t the “time edit” catch up to Desmond at an earlier point while he was on the island? My guess is that since there is only one timeline, the “time edit” took the path of least resistance and entered the normal timeline in “the present” when the future is still uncertain.
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My guess is that since there is only one timeline, AND IT TOOK PLACE DURING A TIME SKIP (WHEN TIME WAS BEING SHUFFLED ANYHOW) the “time edit” took the path of least resistance and entered the normal timeline in “the present” when the future is still uncertain.
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or whoever they were...I guess it doesn't make sense to me. People are saying that those soldiers always died at Locke's hands...but how? Unless I'm just not thinking outside the box...my thinking is that what we are seeing now is the first time that Locke has ever traveled in time...let's say those soldiers come from 1960...so 1960 has already occurred and those soldiers never died at Locke's hands. But now we're seeing Locke and the castaways travel back in time for the first time...so how is it that Locke was able to kill them? We're not talking about separate timelines in Lost's version of time travel...it's a stream with one path and you can go forward and backward. Am I making any sense to anyone?
I realize that Farraday's "rule" is probably a lie...someone somewhere pointed out that it would be much easier for Farraday to approach Desmond alone that it would for a whole group of people. Maybe those soldiers were always meant to die, like the man with the red shoes. Instead of say being killed by hostiles though, they were killed by Locke. -
The normal timeline includes the moment when Locke went back in time and killed the soldiers. Think of “Terminator” where Kyle Reese going back in time to father John Connor was not a change, but part of how things were supposed to happen.
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About Half the redshirts got blown up jumpiong off the frieghter and the rest got flamed. Besides the regulars (and Bernard and Rose) are there any redshirts left> Otherwise they are going to have to startr killing off regulars
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About Half the redshirts got blown up jumpiong off the frieghter and the rest got flamed. Besides the regulars (and Bernard and Rose) are there any redshirts left> Otherwise they are going to have to startr killing off regulars
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Don’t think of the normal timeline as existing without time-travel and then time travel came along and messed with it (like “Back to the Future”). Time travel was ALWAYS part of the time line. Locke popped back and killed those guys in the proper flow of things. That’s the real basis of the “can’t change the past rule”, if there is only one timeline any thing you do only contributes to the past. The only (currently known) exception is Desmond. He’s a temporal “wild card”.
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being part of the 'normal' timeline, but citing The Terminator as an example is something else, as Kyle fathering John is paradoxical - and as such couldn't be part of one normal all encompassing version of history.
Salvation seems to be hinting that because of the time travel of the previous movies, the machines have learnt things and the 'future war' will play out very differently ala Star Treks new movie approach. I'm interested in this take on things, but only as everyone as said, writers don't use time travel to excuse shoddy writing (which 90% of all shows seem to do) -
I am not talking about ANYTHING else in the "Terminator" franchise other than that little tid-bit.
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Anything your future self does in the past has already happened for your present self.
Think of it like in Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure when a future version of themselves appears before the present version of themselves talking to George Carlin.
Time cannot be changed. Everything that has happened, is happening and will happen are chiseled in stone, not written in the sand.
Anything your future self does in the past has already happened for your present self. -
But Terminator should be excluded from any and all discussions about time travel in popular fiction...they're fun movies and all but there are so many things wrong with the time travel in those movies...like GLARING PLOT HOLES that when removed would leave you with no story whatsoever.
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If you accept time travel as a fact (and on LOST it is obviously a fact) then the normal (if abbreviated) timeline looks like this: Point A = Soldiers on the island, Point B = Sawyer, Juliet, etc time skip back and encounter the soldiers, Point C = Locke rescues them, killing the Soldiers, Point D = They Losties time skip again. Weird, yes, unless you accept time travel as part of reality.
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I'm not going to be able to put up with 30 more LOST talkbacks that have people saying shit like "Why didn't Desmond recognize Faraday when they met back in season 4?"
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THE DEAD SOLDIERS
They had an accent, and they wore jumpsuits that resembled the one by that one-eyed Russian dude who seemed to be able to rise up from the dead at will. The listening post was probably a Soviet installation at some point, with intentions of keying in on South Korean communications.
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DESMOND DOESNT RECOGNIZE FARADAY
Desmond doesn't recall that memory until it comes to him in a dream. Seems like it was a 'repressed memory' that while at the time we saw him meet Faraday, remained supressed..THE LAWYERS
once again we learn how little TV writers know about the legal system. Lawyers can't draw blood for a paternity test, and then expect the results of that test to have ANY validity. If lawyers came to your door and said, "Im not at liberty to reveal my client" you say "let me read that paper" and right there at the top left of the cover page, it would tell you exactly who they represent. And yes - they work for Widmore, but were sent by Sun..
LOCKE FROM THE FUTURE HAS ALREADY MET THE LOSTIES
When lock threw a knife at Janet Jackson to prevent her from signaling her ship, it looked odd - Locke was behaving strange. When Jack asked him why he had continued to foil every attempt to get off the island, what did he say? He said something like "This isn't supposed to happen." At that moment, Locke already knew what was supposed to happen - how? why? I suspect that we were seeing a 'time jumping' Locke and the actual "Locke of that moment in time" was still at the cabin talking to a rocking chair with no clue what was going on. -
They were in the Indian Ocean to start, somewhere just southwest of Indonesia. Then we saw the Hawking chic pinpoint the new location of the island in the Pacific, somewhere around the Marshall Islands. It may or may not be moving in time too, given Faraday's comment that it could be the losties moving OR the island, it's all relative.
As for changes to history being part of the normal timeline, if those changes to history were always meant to happen, then anything could be changed if it were "meant" to happen. From our perspective and the perspective of the characters, it would be like there's no rule at all, just divine providence. From the standpoint of physics, of course they can change the past if they're in it. But obviously the island has an influence on people's destinies, or it wouldn't have been able to keep Michael from killing himself. So Faraday, couldn't have come to a mathematical conclusion that it was impossible. If there is a restriction on changing the past too much, it's because the island is preventing it, not because of some rule woven into the fabric of the universe. -
See my earlier post "Desmond and new memories" for my theory on that.
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Some interesting points...you're right about the lawyers however I don't think this is a case of TV writers not knowing about the legal system. I think it's more the fact that they're probably not even lawyers and it's all part of the plot. Just a couple of official looking dudes sent to try to scare Kate.
I'm wondering if that British soldier is Charlotte's father, since there's some speculation that she was born on the island or lived there for a while or something. He did die though so maybe not -
That future Locke theory just blew my mind.
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I have to wonder if all that talk in previous seasons about making lists and determining “good or bad” people on the part of the Others is connected to the time skipping Losties.
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It's so hard to explain, i'm going to try an example that may or may not make sense...
Imagine time as a car moving away from an origin point. As it moves forward (always forward, never right or left, never reversing or changing course) it passes landmarks. Say the car passes a sign, then a mile down the road we find out that the sign was actually from the future and had been sent back. Now the car ALWAYS saw the sign, even though the sign had been a transplant front the future. The car didn't pass blank road and then the scene was replayed and the car encountered the sign later, the car ALWAYS ENCOUNTERED THE SIGN because there is no such thing as an alternate timeline.
If someone goes back in time, they will already have been encountered in the past up to this point. Hence richard saying to Locke, we're going to meet again. Richard remembers the meeting because it happened in his past, Locke doesn't because it happens in his FUTURE (while traveling in the past). I know, it's confusing, but just realize that if someone travels in the past in the lost-verse, those events they take part in while in the past have already transpired... Nothing new is being created, nothing is being changed.
So, the soldiers who are killed by locke were ALWAYS killed by locke. There is no alternate timeline where they lived long, fulfilling lives... They were always killed by Locke in the jungle while holding Juliet and Sawyer hostage. You cannot change the future, so all of this has happened already.
Also, i think it's interesting that we see Daniel so close to the energy well in the 1st episode teaser... He seems intent on getting through... What if he is the cause of the famous "Incident" we've heard so much about...? Maybe he needs to release the energy to stop everyone from moving in time... It's obviously putting charlotte in danger.
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Maybe I'm the only one but I felt that the second hour was better arranged as a single storyline. It had a contained theme that bookended the episode and was emotionally satisfying as a discreet story as well as a part of a larger whole.
All in all it looks like this episode is already going to outshine the fourth season. I'm looking forward to what they are going to do with the time travel elements. -
I think a few people are making a bigger deal of the “can’t change the past rule” that it is. It’s not a rule to be obeyed or a cosmic force protecting the time stream… It’s just that fact that once something is done, it’s done. It’s happened and out there and you can’t take it back. Time travel is accounted for in that, so when time travelers attempt to change the past they end up just being a part of the temporal tapestry.
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If you say that they were always killed by Locke then you're saying that every single moment in time exists all at once, which is to then say there is no timeline...there has to be a first time around right? There has to be a first time when everything happened, when there was no future right? The first time through Locke never came back to kill those soldiers because there was no Locke yet. Or am I completely missing something?
You can say that the soldiers were always killed, no matter what and that their means of death only changes because Locke time travels. I think that's how you have to view it...it's how Ms. Hawking put it and I think it's the "rule" that Daniel talks about. He just says it differently so that Sawyer et al...will leave. -
Is a great one...very mindblowing. I also think based on the fact that we see Daniel in the Orchid cave that it's a pretty sound theory.
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It avoids making things too complicated with alternate time lines and prevents the writers from cheap attempts of emotional manipulation like bringing characters back from the dead. You can account for time paradox with the use of multiple time lines, but it doesn't usually make good storytelling.
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In a sense, yes. In LOST, at least, there is predestination. The past occurs and already factors in the future. There appears to be (at least) two exceptions. 1.) Desmond who’s own past can be changed, which can create odd little paradoxes like (memories that show up years after the time they record), and 2.) there also seems to be a point in time that is a set present. This point is always moving forward (even if various individuals move around it). This is the point in time in which Desmond’s “new memory” suddenly caught up with him. Anything before that point is set in stone and much after this point is, as well (Charlie’s death, for example). It remains to be seen if, from the vantage point of the present, if anyone can postpone (or out right change) destiny or just Desmond (as he did with Charlie’s death). It may be revealed that in the present anyone with the right information can edit the future as Desmond does. Or not.
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There does not have to be a "first time through". In the first time through, a man appears from the future and kills some people. That's how it goes. He is able to appear in the "first time through" because he has travels to the past... to the point where these events were happening for the first (and only) time.
Lost's view of time travel is that the past cannot be changed because that would change the future and cause a paradox... If those men hadn't been killed already (during the first run through), the ripples in the timeline that would have created may have changed the future completely and the entire lost universe as we know it would be different. That's a very messy situation, narratively speaking, and its' one of the main reasons Heroes collapsed on itself. Lost is establishing its rules and sticking to them (save for desmond, which is confusing).
There are no multiple run throughs... There is only ONE run through...
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Desmonds past can be slightly changed because he's unstuck in time, but I don't think he has any control over the big things. He's basically able to be used as a conduit between the past and future... sending messages from the past TO the future... perhaps vice versa as well.
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I get what you're saying...I just don't understand how on "the first time through" there can be a man from the future. On the first time through, there is no future so there is no man from the future. Unless of course you're viewing time as occurring all at once...like in Slaughterhouse Five.
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Jan 23, 2009 12:21:10 PM CST
Another thing I just thought of, re: Farraday in The Orchid
by jor-el23
If Daniel knows the rules, that you can't change things, what is he doing there?
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That the best analogy for time travel on LOST is LOST itself. :)
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that you can't change things, what is he doing there?" He is doing what he is meant to do. ;)
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You're misunderstanding things.
"The first time through Locke never came back to kill those soldiers because there was no Locke yet."
Yes he did. there is no "first time through" or "second time through" there is just the "only time through".
Think of the time line like this: (A) The soldiers appear on the island for whatever they're doing. (B) Soldiers find Sawyer and Juliet and attack them. (C) Locke comes and kills the soldiers. (D) Locke, Sawyer and Juliet all jump to a different time period in island flash. (E) Fast forward X years. (F) 815 crashes. (G) Events of Season 1-4 transpire. (H) Locke, Saywer, Juliet and the rest are thrown back in time to the period where the soldiers were.
That is how the events happened. They happened as ABCDEFGH. Locke killed those soldiers before he ever crashed on the island because his FUTURE SELF did that in far past before his PAST SELF crashed on the island.
Ya dig?
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I guess that's just where I'm lost when it comes to time travel...maybe I should just shut up and enjoy it. Thinking about all of this certainly isn't ruining my enjoyment of the first two hours of this season.
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I'm fine with the idea that a "time edit" - as you put it - occurred, and I can swallow whatever reason for Desmond remembering it when he did. I don't really care too much about that ... However if the past can't be changed - why can Farraday change the past? If this edit idea is what's up, then Farraday has somehow broken the rule that you can't change the past.
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Maybe he wants to observe something, maybe he is attempting to get back to his present in a way that won't mess with the past, or maybe he thinks his contact with Desmond opens up his options.
It doesn't matter, however, because if he believes that the past cannot be changed (as a fact as opposed to a law one choses to obey), then whatever he does was supposed to happen, anyway. -
You're right, it's just like in Slaughterhouse Five. THe only difference I'd say is I wouldn't put it as "all time occurs at once", cause technically that's obviously not true. But the spirit of it is.
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why can Farraday change the past?" Because Desmond can alter things (somewhat, at least) and Daniel is doing it through Desmond.
Or do you mean why does he chose to in the first place? -
I agree that we will HAVE to see past versions of not only the Others, but of the Losties too.
Only problem with Locke acting funny is that if it's supposed to be a future "better/all-knowing Locke" He needs to change clothes with whatever current Locke the Losties have been seeing him wear in that current season.
Example: A friend of mine was convinced Ben went to see Ms. Hawkings in Oxford, but I said, um, that chick is in LA. Ben went from LA to England and didnt change clothes or anything with the little time he does have to get the O6 back? Anh...
Not buying the future versions of other losties jumping into past scenes when we were thinking they were PRESENT Losties. Not future Locke from the time shifting Island
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Is it one fuckin R or two? Anyway. I still don't hear a good explanation as to why Faraday thinks he can change the past while simultaneously believing you cannot change the past (I'll take him at his word - and the writers' - there). It makes no sense to me whatsoever. They are trying to paint it as something special to Desmond but really, all Faraday needs to do in that situation is talk to ANYONE. Anyone would remember that conversation. Okay fine, Desmond is available, so you talk to him. But the idea of it being an edit is nonsensical (I direct this at the writers, if it's so). It should be that he already remembered it, like any normal person. Really the easiest explanation is that it's not an edit, it did already happen and somehow Desmond forgot the encounter. Which is ludicrous, but maybe they'll show him bumping his head or something.
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He knows that no matter how hard he tries, he will fail to do so... Except with Desmond, who it outside that rule. Desmond CAN change things and if you know that (as Daniel does) you can change things if you make use of Desmond to do it.
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I would say that it is all the same timeline... All one stream... Like Daniel says, it's one river. If time happened once, and then you went back and changed it, that would mean there are at least 2 distinct rivers, the original, and the newly formed one.
If it's all one timeline, any changes to the past have to have occurred in the original timeline. It makes things neater... A good example of this (if i remember correctly) is Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. -
"all Faraday needs to do in that situation is talk to ANYONE. Anyone would remember that conversation."
Even if Faraday tried to talk to anyone else, he wouldn't be able to because if he had, it would have already happened. Lets say that the time traveling Losties get flashed to the time when the sky turned purple and flight 815 crashed. If Faraday went to try to talk to the people on the beach, he would never make it to them. Something would happen before he got there. Maybe he'd get found by an other that captures him. Maybe he trips over a log and dies. Either way, he would never make it to the beach to talk to the newly crashed Losties because when they crashed originally, he didn't come talk to them. -
This also explains why Richard has been watching locke his entire life. He met lock as an adult some decades earlier than locke was even born, and has been waiting for the moment when they would meet again and exchange the compass. He didn't have some mystical dream that locke was special... he had already met the man... he KNEW he was.
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Jan 23, 2009 12:49:05 PM CST
Thunderbolt- the universe has a way of "course correcting"
by novaman5000
Faraday can't do something that hasn't already happened... it wouldn't let him... except for desmond... He exists outside the universe's control ever since the failsafe explosion.
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Well summarized.
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. You are King.
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but I don't care ultimately because I love the show
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I hope I've demonstrated that I understand that you can't change the past, since that's the precise reason why this doesn't make sense to me. Because Faraday ... changed ... the past. WHY can he talk to DESMOND and no one else? Desmond is the special one, and his specialness has been demonstrated to be internal. IF Faraday talked to Desmond, then he must have ALWAYS talked to Desmond. How else can it be explained, unless Faraday can somehow break the rule he explained about 5 minutes earlier?
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I'm assuming that either (A) He had always talked to Desmond or (B) because of Desmond turning the key in the hatch and becoming "special", the entire time line of his life has been put in flux and can be messed with.
If it is B, then the main reason that Faraday told Sawyer about the rule was to get Sawyer and the crew away from there or else Sawyer would have really screwed things up and freaked out Desmond. -
Faraday changed Desmond's past, which is allowed, because it's Desmond. Should Desmond go around telling people, that is allowed too, because it's Desmond doing it. Could Sawyer have interacted with Desmond? Technially, yeah, however there are plenty of reasons why that would have been a bad idea, mostly in a "I don't have time to screw around when I talk to Desmond" sense.
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See, that's what I'm afraid of. If it's (B), that's pretty weak, because it's still Faraday doing it, not Desmond. Faraday decides to change something and somehow it works, even though Faraday is external to Desmond and preciously Desmond had only been able to travel internally and affect things himself.
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You're concerned about FARADAY! I gotcha, now. Sorry. I think it's valid, as from Fraday's point of existance it's his present. And he's not changing anything because it's Desmond, who is fair game. Also, Desmond can't even REMEMBER the changes until the present, anyhow. The past is intact.
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Faraday isn't changing the past, he's usung Desmond to contact the present FROM the past.
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She said that you can try, but that the universe would find a way to correct itself. It's obviously not that you can't do it, it's that it would be pointless in the long run. If you can travel to the past and you can interact with your surroundings, then you can definitely change things. Consider this, the mouse and the bunny experiments changed peoples' notions about time travel simply by proving it was possible, ergo the future was changed. People need to stop taking every line so literally.
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and reading into vague dialogue. I'd have to say that Faraday's rule was pretty much a frying pan to the face. There was no dancing around, no vagueness...it was one of the most expository things every said on Lost I'd say.
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That still doesn't explain why Desmond wouldn't remmeber Faraday when he arrives on the island but only in the future.
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***cut and pasted from above***
Due to the time skips (and who knows what other unique properties of the island), the next 70 hours from the Season 5 present are very significant in regards to making contact with the island. Now, the reason Desmond doesn’t remember meeting Faraday in the normal way is because that encounter is outside normal time and is thus not a normal memory. Let’s call it a “time edit”. So we have this “time edit” out there trying to work itself into the timeline. For whatever reason (actually, for dramatic purposes), the “time edit” can’t catch up to Desmond until that 70 hour window of importance, during which it hits him and integrates into his brain.
OK, so why didn’t the “time edit” catch up to Desmond at an earlier point while he was on the island? My guess is that since there is only one timeline, AND IT TOOK PLACE DURING A TIME SKIP (WHEN TIME WAS BEING SHUFFLED ANYHOW) the “time edit” took the path of least resistance and entered the normal timeline in “the present” when the future is still uncertain. -
Since there is only one timeline and there can only ever be one timeline (at least so we will assume, for now), changes made via Desmond don't create a divergent time line but rather exist "off to the side" for a bit before finding a point in time to integrate themselves back into the timeline where little or no damage will be done. In theory that would almost always be the "actual present".
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I think if you're talking about time edits then you're talking about everything happening at the same time. I don't know if I'm going to be able to explain this though because I have no knowledge of any of the scientific side of things. But if you think of everything happening at the same time then the reason Desmond didn't remember Faraday until that exact moment is because Faraday didn't come to the hatch and talk to Desmond until that exact moment, however many years ago that Desmond was in the hatch.
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Tel lthat to locke's compass or the bullet in his lef for that matter.
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When Desmond is on that boat with Penny when is that occurring? I can't remember if they say anything...is it shortly after getting off the island or is it 3 years in the present?
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Okay - and I did read it the first time - you're saying then that Faraday knew that because he was under SPECIAL circumstances (time skip) he could talk to a SPECIAL kinda guy (Desmond) and it would have a SPECIAL result? Well the question that raises is, why make Desmond's "specialness" include, essentially being very, very forgetful? Because if nothing in the past can be changed, then the effect of what Faraday did was to talk to the one man who wouldn't just remember the conversation, but would wake up years later and go "Oh shit!" I'm telling you, they are playing fast and loose with this.
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What you're saying makes sense, but in practice it still means changing something which allegedly can't be changed.
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Desmond's scenes on the boat take place shortly after the island has jumped in time...a little under 3 years before Jack and everyone else is trying to get back to the island. What if Desmond goes to find Faraday's mom and it is Ms. Hawking and what if that is why she is working in some church basement, 3 years in the future with a pendulum and a computer trying to find the island?
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Those items are part of the normal timeline and meant to be moving about in time. On LOST, time travel to the past does not equal changing the past, it just means being a part of it. Interacting with the past (passing the compass from Richard to Locke) and changing the past (Faraday talking to Desmond) are two distinct, albeit related, phenomena
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I guess the rules are tossed out because it's Desmond? Obviously the rules don't apply to him since he can see the future and seems to be able to travel through time to a certain degree on his own.
I guess then the real question is why is Desmond traveling through time? What's the point of it? What's the point of anyone (Ben/Dharma/Widmore) wanting to travel through time if you can't change anything? -
But it was passed off to Locke in a "time-edit" so shouldn't it not have really happened?
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“Well the question that raises is, why make Desmond's "specialness" include, essentially being very, very forgetful?” Kind of, yeah. I get that it really is just a writer convenience, I get that, but it’s not a bad one. The meeting between Faraday and Desmond at the Hatch is not part of the normal timeline. It is, essentially, an artificially created occurrence in time. Since it is artificial, it is not bound by the exact same laws as other occurrences in time or people’s memories of them.
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"But it was passed off to Locke in a "time-edit" so shouldn't it not have really happened?" No it wasn't. You are confusing "time skips" with "time edits". Locke is time skipping. The timeline is cool with him doing that and, in fact, dependant on it. The passing of the compass was supposed to happen. Faraday meeting Desmond at the hatch is a "time edit", a change to the timeline that was not supposed to happen, but did.
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Well, we don't know how well known it is that the past cannot be changed, or if those who have heard it believe it. For that matter we don't even know if it is true. Also, since we have at least one temporal special guy, who is to say that such an individual is totally unknown? Part of "the plan" could include becoming or controlling that special individual.
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New Jeff Jenson Recaps of Behind & Lie
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Is in LA! (or old -school Jericho)
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I love the begining of the episode fool. It didn't take long for me to figure out that it was Chang, but it was still cool. I didn't notice the first time that I watched it, but boiling the water to heat the bottle was a gaveaway to the time period. She probably won't figure into things, but I wonder if Mrs. Chang will play a role in anything other then Wife. Thats interesting that we finally find out what the purpose of the Tailie shack or the Aarow was for. That it was to develop defencive stratgies and gather intelligence on the Hostiles and that it was the 2nd station.
Its interesting that Bens says that Hurley would be the easyest to get when hes proving to be the toughest so far.
Im curious if Ben really doesn't know what happened when the island moved.
I found it odd that Rose would say that she was back at the church when Eko never finished it.
I have to say that I Like Charlotte & Miles a whole lot better this season.
It looks like Miles is taking the place of Charlie going around with his hood up. I loved it when Faraday starts his scientific babble and Sawyer slaps him. Then the record skipping tying it all back to the begining of the episode.
I love Hurleys comment to Sayid about comfort food and shooting people. -
I found this on Lostpedia
The two men who visit Kate represent the law firm "Agostini and Norton", which is an anagram for "attaining donor son".
The episode begins with a record skipping, which is later used as a metaphor for how the island is moving through time. (Foreshadowing)
Kate tells Aaron that the train in his cartoon won't go into a tunnel because he will never come out, foreshadowing their evacuation from their home moments later, and perhaps their return to the island. (Foreshadowing)
Faraday insists that they can't change the past or stop what's happening, and Sawyer asks him who can; Faraday doesn't respond. This foreshadows Faraday's statement that Desmond is special and the "rules" don't apply to him, implying that Desmond can, in fact, change things. (Foreshadowing)
When Locke is separated from The Others, he is left in the jungle with nothing but a knife and his wits; literally the situation he longed for in "Walkabout". (Irony)
Aaron is watching a cartoon with several vehicles rushing franticly, foreshadowing Kate's running away quickly after being pressed by the attorney Dan Norton. (Foreshadowing)
Sawyer calls for a "time out", and later Juliet says "it's been a long day". (Irony)
After running for a long time in her past, Kate will have to become a fugitive again in her future. (Irony)
Daniel is moved through time in the exact moment he was about to say the name of his mother, which Desmond shall meet at Oxford University. Being like that, the name is never revealed. (Cliffhanger) http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Because_You_Left -
... you got me laughing about that Locke's dad line, fellow poster! Of course, Jacob could be anybody, but that would be quite a little twist, considering the way the guy has treated Locke. Thanks for clarifying the matter with the cabin. What I'm now trying to figure out is why the cabin--- if not tied to the Black Rock--- seems to be time jumping. There has to be an explanation. With the cabin's "jumping" capabilities and its rather unique group of residents, I'm now a little concerned, though. With Jack going back to the island, I'm wondering if his goal is to somehow alter time to save *everybody*--- especially his father. Isn't that why he went to Australia, in the first place (in a manner of speaking)?
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Interesting thought by poster there: "It's still the sort of time travel that Des went through in the Constant... only this time it's the islands "mind" that is dislodged, leaving the inhabitants to deal with the consequences."
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So then you have to decide, who's closer to the truth, Faraday or Hawking? My money is on Hawking. Faraday has always been too rushed to fully explain things to anyone and he's still trying to figure things out himself. Faraday's line, taken literally, just doesn't make any sense. All the losties changed the past by depleting the others of some flaming arrows (or whomever's arrows those were). Not to mention that they're crushing vegetation underfoot by merely walking around. Faraday was no doubt referring to major course corrections, like Hawking explicitly mentioned.
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...developments in these new episodes put us really close to figuring it all out? Seems like this show's version of time travel could explain lots of things from the Numbers, the pre-crash connections between characters, the monster. We just need a few more pieces.
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Actually Darlton did say before the premiere in a Q & A that Mrs. Hawkings & Faraday ideas would be at odds this seasons and that there would be some sort of loophole that Faraday would be able to use.
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Everyone make sure to bookmark this Talkback because we plan on using this one until next weeks talkbalk appears each week and then when we get the finale talkback we will use that for the rest of the year.
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The idea is that those flaming arrows were already shot before - as in linear-wise - the island was moved. Their presence didn't cause something different to happen cause it already happened. Same with crushed vegetation, Locke and Ethan, the guys threatening to cut off Juliet's hand, etc. The only anomaly - if it is one - is Faraday talking to Desmond, and that happened in theory because Desmond is an anomaly himself.
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Maltheus... adding to what T-Ross wrote, the flaming arrows provide a good nod to classic role-playing games. If the accellerant burns out within a certain window of time, then the arrows can be retrieved, placed back in their quivers, and re-used. That actually works a little better than firearms (on a number of different levels). Still, your observation of the seemingly competing philosophies of Ms. Hawking and Dr. Faraday raises some good questions. Ravetin... yes. Of course, "closer" can be relative (especially to the most impatient among us).
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The obvious possible people behind it are Widmore or Ben. But I'm thinking its Jack. After all he could provide his own blood and prove he's related to the boy and she isn't. Or more likely he's just thinking this will push her to come back to the island. He's been saying she's the one that'll be hardest to get to return. If he's trusting and working with Ben then he must be messed in the head or Ben is rubbing off on him.
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Yes, the passage of time is an illusion - everything happens at once and we just experience it in a certain order, just like all of these words exist on this page but you read and experience them one at a time to make sense of them.
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then, wouldn't the island have shifted AWAY from the so-called source of energy that's under it? Or is that part of the island too? Dr Chang and Dharma selected that island because of its proximity (geographical reference) to a source of energy, that when harnessed, can manipulate time...right?
However, if the flash of light only signifies displacing the Losties through time, then why did the island have to move at all? Are there two phenomena going on here that the writers have to work with? That of the shifting island AND the shifting Losties through time?
Perhaps, the island was constantly changing location over time, perhaps gradually--which means their geographic location corresponds to different points in time. The way the earth changes location as it orbits around the sun, the days we experience (months, years) represent different locations..if we were to jump from tuesday to friday, the location of the earth in its orbit would jump too. That could be what the island is doing. It's always been moving...it's just that it is jumping through time just like the Losties are, so therefore its geographic location is jumping too (as opposed to a gradual movement). -
Why does interacting with the past change their present situation (Locke getting shot is in essence, his interacting with the past in a way that physically affects his present situation, or the flaming arrows killing some of the redshirts)? Perhaps Faraday is partially right, that they can't change the past--but it's not as simple as that. They can definitely interact with the past.It's possible too, that we can't figure this all out because our brains exist in the present time, and only if we were outside of time could we comprehend time travel and reconcile its seeming inconsistencies. When the brain goes through time travel, you get nosebleeds.
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I am only here now because I finally watched the opener, but I cannot believe people are talking about Season 2 as if it were the best season, when it was by far the weakest season of all. The third season was such an improvement over the second. Are the people saying otherwise fucking retarded?
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Just that it wasn't as horrible as some make it out to be. I enjoyed that season.
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Im curious what the page that Daniel turned to said right before he spoke with Hatch Desmond.
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charlotte is Ddesmond and Penny's daughter
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meant DESmond and Penny's daughter...consider:
in Charlotte's flashback, she slaps a wad of cash at the archaelogical dig manager, kind of stating that enough money will get you anything - which ties into Charles Widmore's ergo Penny's, wealth.
Charlotte states that she feels differently about leaving the island, since she was born there...
Her name is CHARlotte, a living tribute to CHARlie(?), who saved them all and allowed Desmond the opportunity to reunite with his love, Penny.... God , how does a show of this csliber get this big? -
I had to move everything away from the wall to make room for some repais, so I moved my 20 year old 25" RCA TV to within about five feet of my chair. Even though the picture is a little "sogt", it's a lot closer now. On Grey's Anatomy Katherine Heigl, who's fairly pretty, has this awful acne blemished skin which you can see even under the troweled on make-up.But on Lost - Jeebus! I get that on the island everyone is dirty, filthy, grimey, scruffy, unahaven, had greasy hair, etc. but even with the off-island characters, none of these people but Sun and maybe Kate seems to clean up very well. And with all the extreme close-ups of Hurley, Ben, Jack, etc... Is everyone on this show covered with warts, moles, blemished, acne scars, other scars, huge pores, zits, and so on? Yeah, we're all only human, sure, but I may have to go back to watching on the 13" Zenith in the corner. The closeups of these people are making me sick.
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Desmond didn't remember meeting Dan because it hadn't happened yet. The moment it happened "island timeline" Desmond remembered it "normal timeline". It was 3 years after he left the island, Penny confirmed that. I think the term "special" simply refers to the fact that Desmond was off the island when it broke from the normal timeline.
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Or when California fell into the ocean? Or when the meteor hit Australia?No you don't, because the time travelers from the future prevented them from ever happening. And they didn't change history, they just had the technology to prevent those things from happening and to pinpoint exactly when in time they were needed. So time travelers always came back to prevent those things from happening. Therefore, no change was needed.
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It seems obvious to me that only those on the island at the time it "moved" are phasing in and out of time. And apparently not all on the same schedule. Locke is present for the drug plane crash at the same time Sawyer, et al are standing at the hatch crater. The natives (Richard), seem to be immune to this.
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Kelvin was on the island for how long? We know he died less than 3 years before the crash of 815 and we know he trained Sayid how to torture. So when did he come to the island? Dharma was dead by the time he got there so who brought him there and under what auspices?
If Dharma was done after the purge who dropped the food, all Dharma food, that the Losties picked up? Anyone???? -
...could mean that Des & Pen are another option for being Adam & Eve (Kate/Jack, Rose/Bernard, Des & Pen?????)
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Time Travel - The last few comments reminds me of The first Back to the Future how Marty carried a photo of his siblings and they disappeared or reappeared from the photo according to how well he was doing with keeping things in line with the true timeline.
Kelvin - We know that Kelvin was in the 1st Gulf War which took place in the early 90's if I remember correctly, so he was probably in the Hatch mid 90's and Desmond got there around 2000? -
Kelvin joined the DHARMA Initiative sometime between 1991 and December of 1992. It is likely that he joined in 1991, since the Purge took place in 1992. It is unknown exactly how Kelvin came to the Island. He became the operator of the Swan research station with his partner, Radzinsky. According to Kelvin, Radzinsky committed suicide by putting a shotgun in his mouth and firing it, leaving a blood stain on the ceiling. Kelvin later buried him in between pushing the button. Kelvin and Radzinsky were the only known survivors of the Purge that hadn't defected.
In the March 20, 2007 Official Lost Podcast, Carlton Cuse confirmed that The Others had no knowledge of the Swan station; hence, Radzinsky, Kelvin Joe Inman, and/or Desmond were not killed during the Purge along with the rest of the DHARMA Initiative.
When Desmond's boat shipwrecked in 2001, Kelvin was on the beach and rescued him. He asked Desmond the snowman joke, and "Are you him?". When Kelvin realized that Desmond was not the man he expected, he showed him the station's orientation film, and enlisted him as his partner to push the button in the Swan.
Kelvin, writing notes on the blast door map.Kelvin continued working on the blast door map after Radzinsky died. This map was meant to plot the locations of the other DHARMA stations on the Island. Kelvin also told Desmond about the fail-safe key.
Kelvin planned to escape the Island by secretly repairing the sailboat Elizabeth, under the guise of investigating the Island. He always donned a HAZMAT suit when he left the hatch. On September 22, 2004, as Kelvin went to repair the boat, Desmond noticed the suit was damaged. He followed Kelvin and watched him take it off outside the hatch. Desmond continued following him until Kelvin confronted him at the cove. He asked Desmond to join him, but Desmond refused. He attacked Kelvin, and accidentally killed him by slamming his head against the rocks. He then left to go push the button, leaving Kelvin's body behind on the rocks.
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Looks like the islands story might go a lot further then we thought.
http://lostroom23.blogspot.com/ -
Jan 24, 2009 11:36:43 AM CST
might go a lot further into the future then we thought
by 4we8have15to16go23back42
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It's not just his desire to "save the island" (or whatever), or even his need to ally himself with Jack, et al. It's as if his whole personality changed.
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and I REALLY don't know if it means anything. But did anyone catch the fact that "Marvin Candle" and the Pendulum Priestess had the exact same line?
"Then God help us all." -
Ben has always been power-hungry. He likes being leader. We still see that with his gathering of the Oceanic 6. He has some personal connection to the island that makes him very territorial of it. Even if he IS acting as a protector of the island, it isn't just because he's a selfless guy who cares about the island. The island serves a purpose for him. He still has his weird fixation on Juliet. He's still very likely going to try to kill Penny if he finds her. In fact, I find it telling that he's shifting some of his focus from getting the Oceanic 6 back to the island to getting himself back, as well. I think he's still an antagonistic force in many ways. But what I LOVE about the show and particularly about his character is that as much as he may be a megalomaniac and/or a sociopath, I feel incredibly sympathetic towards him. Most of the characters on the show have that dimension to them.
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Calm Down or you are going to the Psyche Ward . . .
Better late than never.
r.i.p. Brad -
during my second viewing, though!! :P It certainly has something to do with the knowledge these two ppl have about the significance of the island as far as the entire world is concerned.
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Gollum. The tortured, misunderstood pawn forever trying to assert control over his environment and those around him through deception and half-truths. My guess is that in his blind pursuit for revenge and re-establishing of himself in the island's good graces, he'll inadvertently destroy himself and save others (no pun intended) in doing so.
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you have to go into the 5th dimension and then step down into the fourth dimension, which is time.
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like the arrows firing...I guess I just don't understand how that isn't changing things. And I also don't really see how Ms. Hawking and Faraday's theories are different and are going to be at odds. They both basically said the same thing, that you can't change things. Ms. Hawking's explanation fit in much better with what was happening with Desmond and Charlie...that Desmond could keep saving Charlie's life but he was going to keep being put into peril, like the man in the red shoe.
Her theory though seems to be that eventually the man in the red shoes dies and eventually charlie dies. Had Charlie died saving Claire then no one would have been there to swim to the Looking Glass...but according to the course correction theory someone else would have, like Sayid or even Desmond. But then Desmond would have died and never been rescued by Penny, never been able to go to Oxford. Sayid could have died and never become Ben's assassin.
But the man with the red shoes. What if Ms. Hawking stopped him from being crushed and he was hit by a car. What if the person who hit him felt guilty about killing someone? What if they committed suicide from their guilt? Or what if their guilt caused them to become an abusive drunk who beat their kid? And what if their kid was abused and became a serial killer...I know that I'm just making a whole bunch of shit up but my point is that even in the "course correction" of the universe, other people are affected. -
His lines are always just delightful from a screenwriting POV. Has he ever actually down flat lied, except about his name in S02? Anyone remember? Sure, there are a lot of half truths and deliberately vague selective information, and maybe even some Kenobi-ish truths "from certain point of views", but it seems to me he's always able to talk himself out of what appears to be lies. Come to think of it, he reminds me of my ex girlfriend.
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more about finnuala flannaghans character. Very good opening. more linear. Stuff with hurleys family bogged it down though. I wonder is Fionnualas character mrs Charles Widmore. It takes two people to make a child. and up untill this the focus has been on Charles Widmore and his daughter Penny and her desire to find desmond. Just a wild guess. about who flanaghans character is. she is very mysterious. she hs popped up in the series now three times. once again lost has me coming back for more. thats great tv.
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I finally finished watching the first two hours of season 5 and I can happily say that I LOVED it. I knew this season would be a lot more sci-fi oriented - especially after the slightly underwhelming season 4 finale and the island just "plopping" away. But the show handles it really well - I love the "skipped beats" from day to night and absolutely loved the return of Ethan and even Ana Lucia. The writer's careful planning and foreshadowing has REALLY paid off because of the sci-fi and time travel elements they've already inserted - so now that they're going ALL OUT it feels like a completely natural direction to the show. How rare is it for a show's FIFTH season to be as fresh and surprising as the FIRST. Next wednesday can't come soon enough....
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on a creative high. the inclusion of one of the greatest irish actresses of her generation left me dazzled. Fionnaula Flanaghan's character is very important. we dont know how or why. The people behind lost, clearly arent stupid and that decision to end the show at the meeting was the best decision they have made. The editing for the previous for 4 years was to my mine some of the best editing in modern tv. people dislike the flash forwarding and flash backing. it does dilute the show in some ways. this is still the most gripping show on tv. I will never ever forget the moment when micheal emerson's ben linus first emerged. Emerson took the show to another level. after having his henry gale alibi beaten and shattered by sayid. he reveals how he caught jack and his gang before snapping back to prisoner mode with that devasting line "you guys got any milk." How emerson hasnt even picked up one emmy nomination for his outstanding performance remains a mystery.
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The lack of flash forwarding and flashbacking does take away something from the show. But it makes the show more linear and easier to follow.
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I'm sure most people know about this already but I just learned of it yesterday while reading Lostpedia it was suggested that Daniel Faraday's voice could be heard as the cameraman in this video:
http://tinyurl.com/cxfky8
Sounds a lot like him...I wish there was a version of just the Pierre Chang footage and not the fat geek with curly red hair being let in to see it. -
What the hell did Ben pull from vent in the hotel room and put in his bag?
Sun's reaction on hearing from Kate about the lawyers was one of interest if not surprise so I don't think she hired them. I think it was Ben.
Her question about Jack to Kate leads me to think she blames him for Jin's death but I also think this is most likely a red herring.
I don't think those dudes that showed up to Kate's were even lawyers. Wouldn't those douches be required to say who their client was?
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Actually Emeraldboy, Michael Emerson WAS nominated for an Emmy and John Locke (Terry O'Quinn) won the Emmy - the show has also won the Emmy for best drama.
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I dont follow the emmys. and since as a lost fan, I was incredulos that Matthew Fox should have got something for his bravura performance at the end of season three and the fuckers didnt even given some much as a nod. in fact they stopped nominating Lost around that time period. the makers deserve something for putting this show back on track. they really do. the rest of season three was exceptional. really great and that finale was knock out.
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I'll never understand the hate it gets.
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I think Season 2 gets the hate because they introduced all those tailies just to kill them all off. Not a huge amount of progress was made in the show and a lot of the flashbacks were pretty dry. The only good thing was the introduction of Ben and Desmond.
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I don't think that the producers introduced all of them just so they could kill them off...I think that it was a combination of the fans not liking them, the legal troubles some of them got into and the fact that some of the new actors didn't mix well with the established actors from season 1. without all of those extenuating circumstances I bet most of the tailies would still be on the show. Maybe Ana dies but I bet Libby doesn't, especially since she clearly has a lengthy backstory involving two of our main characters that was never touched on. Plus the Eko/John conflict could have been added to but the actors hated each other.
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that is news to me. I would have liked the writers to have elaborated a little more on libby. who she was, how she got to the island. How she ended in the up in the santa rosa facility with hurley and the writers reneged on that. Cartlon cuse and damon Lindeloff said that they were going to shed a little light on her. but they didnt for whatever reason. by all accounts Emilie de ravine was right royal pain in the ass. There was a scene in one season where she wears a hat. She kept taking it off. and there was a major blow up on set between her and the writers. they kept saying to her look its in the script and she said I am not wearing the hat. they reached a compromise where she only would wear the hat to keep the sun of her eyes. she wore the hat in couple of scenes and never wore it again. Its on the dvd commentary that story about emilie and her hat.
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to claire. but I suspect that she became a major pain in the ass and they wrote her out. Charlie's exit was a shock to dominic monaghan. but we all know that it was being built up through that season.
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For all the work you do on it, it's good to see Room 23 getting it's props.
http://tinyurl.com/d7gv6f
and scroll down to Lost.
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Actually it didn't have anything to do with legal issues or speeding/DUI's or personalities. Most of them were only contracted for a year. With Eko they had a lot more story for him, but he got island stir crazy and asked to leave the show.
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And all these ideas about the time-travel are giving me nose bleeds too.
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Or not, and that's why it is in danger? If it is indeed moving out of sinc with the losties, that is. Oh I don't know! And all these ideas about the time travel are giving me nose bleeds too.
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She wasn't written out because of her being a pain. The story necessitated it. She is on hold by the producers and is going to return in season 6.
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Jan 26, 2009 9:30:25 PM CST
Everyone bookmark this before it falls off the TV section
by 4we8have15to16go23back42
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I just loved the Ana Lucia ghost camio! I hope that we get a real Eko camio and Libby & Michael ones. Maybe even a Arnt camio. Her camio even fit well into the story.
I also love how they did a Nikki camio with Hurley's Dad watching Expose.
I love it how Cheech said that it was better when Hurley said that Sayid had been the one to kill 3 people.
I love how Rose puts Frogurt in his place.
I love how Frogurt gets cut off mid rant with a fire aarow to the chest. Another great Arnt moment. Im curious if the people shooting the aarows are the same as the military men or if its another group like the hostiles.
The more I watch these 2 episodes the more that I think that Sun was behind the two men who visited Kate for the blood sample.
Its interesting how Ben is able to deduce just from Jack telling him him that he had Sayid where Hurley was and why.
I actually really loved all of the Reyes stuff. Great stuff. The best part was Hurley telling his Mom the recap of the first four seasons and him believing him.
I love how Hurley throws the Hot Pocket at Ben. I also loved how Hurley told Ben that he was playing mind games on him. Hurleys smile is great like hes saying I got you Ben, little does he know.
It was awsome seeing the time travel lady again
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Im watching the commentary and Darlton just said that we should be asking ourseleves if Keemy blew up the frieghter on Widmores orders or if he had gone crazy and did it on his own.
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http://lostroom23.blogspot.com/
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Congrats
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Now that we're in time travel mode. Some of the stranger events from past seasons may get their explanations via the whole time space paradox.
1. The whispers? Will this be the explanation? Unseen voices from the past...or the future?
2. Drippy wet, backwards talkin Walt? Could he have been appearing to Shannon & Co from the future? Trying to warn his fellow Losties from some precognative vantage point?
3. The Hurley Bird? "Did that bird just say my name"? Hurley asked...Yes it did, Hugo...Cuz you told it to?
4. Literally, at any point...a scene from a past season could have been a 'future' Lostie acting in place of a 2004 version. When Locke says..."Your're not suppose to do this" to Jack at the end of Season 3...he says it with such certainty...ya wonder if it's because John's (Jeremy?) REALLY already got the prior knowledge.
5. "I lost Reyes tonight"...Ben tells Miss Hawking..."God help us all" she replies. Why THESE 6? Why can't they do it without Hurley? Do each of these 6 have an integral role in saving the island? Has it been preordained? That if Hugo is not manning position "B" on such and such a time...and fails to turn a switch at an exact point...the whole plan will collapse...causing a worldwide catastrophic event? It seems Ben is trying to get the 0-6 into the exact places they need to be in to save the island. How does he know what will happen? -
Room 23
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We will find out what happened to claire and how she died. there will be one more thing to solve. How christian shepard died in australia. and that will tie up the story of the shepard family. large part of that was already tied when jack discovered that claire was his half sister.
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I believe that if you had asked Desmond in Season 2 if he had ever had an encounter with a bearded dude outside the station, he would say, "yeah, come to think of it."
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Desmond was down in the hatch awhile. For all he knew he hallucinated the whole thing. It's believable that he would not remmeber Faraday considering his mental state....of who the fuck am I kidding? This whole thing is incomprehensible right now.
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Desmond was down in the hatch awhile. For all he knew he hallucinated the whole thing. It's believable that he would not remmeber Faraday considering his mental state....of who the fuck am I kidding? This whole thing is incomprehensible right now.
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Desmond was down in the hatch awhile. For all he knew he hallucinated the whole thing. It's believable that he would not remmeber Faraday considering his mental state....of who the fuck am I kidding? This whole thing is incomprehensible right now.
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