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Was It Earth?? Was Baltar Right?? And Why Her??Mo Ryan Talks To Ron Moore About Friday’s GALACTICA!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
Like many a great episode of a great series, “Sometimes A Great Notion” (named, it turns out, for one of my favorite novels) answers big questions and poses big new questions.
Many spoilers ahead if you haven’t seen Friday’s episode.
At the end of “Battlestar Galactica’s” third season a newly resurrected Starbuck told Apollo she found Earth. Then we zoomed way out to the edge of the galaxy and then back in on Earth. We could make out its familiar continents.
On the radioactive “Earth” the fleet just discovered we never see those continents beneath the cloud cover. Plus it was apparently populated exclusively by dirty Cylons. Plus Roslin was still alive when they found it. So are we still supposed to believe this is really Earth?
There’s a prequel series coming to SciFi called “Caprica,” which supposedly tells the tale of how Eric Stoltz “invented” the Cylons just 50 years before the holocaust depicted in the 2003 miniseries. So – excluding the possibility of time travel, doesn’t news of a 2,000-year-old Cylon Holocaust diminish somewhat Stoltz’ role in Cylon Genesis?
And what exactly went on between the two Cylon wars? The Stoltz-forged centurions only made seven models? Did the centurions tell the seven models about the final five? Who told the centurions?
Why is there no model seven?
If Kara Thrace isn’t a Cylon, what is she precisely? (Note that, before the cancellation of "Galactica 1980," plans were afoot to resurrect the Dirk Benedict Starbuck as a kind of celestrial superbeing.)
How is it the 13th tribe was comprised of a bunch of robots?
Why wasn’t a race capable of interstellar travel more careful about writing all this down somewhere? (With all due respect, the prophecies of Pithia sound like they were written by a rum-swilling hybrid.)
Chicago Tribune TV columnist Maureen Ryan has a terrific interview with “Galactica” mastermind Ronald D. Moore focusing on last night’s installment. He doesn’t answer the questions I pose above, but he does have answers. Of particular interest:
* On Tigh and Baltar’s theory that Cylons comprised the 13th tribe? “I think you can read that as fact,” Moore tells Ryan.
* When Ryan asks if this is the only Earth we’ll see, Moore doesn’t answer “yes” or “no.”
* He discloses when it was decided that Ellen Tigh would be revealed to be a Cylon. (Remember how everybody thought she was a Cylon when she was miraculously discovered among the fleet? It turns out even the writers didn’t know the real truth at the time.)
* Moore explains the concept of the “final five” emerged out of the decision to have Baltar living among the Cylons for a long stretch of episodes. (Remember that scene on New Caprica with the seven known models voting on how to deal with their captive humans? Weren’t we all wondering why the other five Cylon models weren’t getting a say? In fact, aren’t we still wondering?)
* Moore also confirms that the disappointing condition in which Earth is found precipitates Dualla’s suicide.
Find all of Ryan’s interview with Moore, plus illuminating essays on the episode by its writers, here.
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That was a good interview. All the right questions are being asked. I can't figure out the timeline.
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I love it!
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I just hope he can at least do it in an entertaining way for the next 9 episodes.
It's funny how all the women snapped in this ep. Well, besides Starbuck, who is holding it together nicely, considering she's been dealt the worst mindfrak by far, comparatively. I think RDM is like the Anti-Whedon when it comes to female empowerment.
On a side note: to the folks who are raving about Mary's performance last night... the heck are you smoking? Acting like a constipated stick isn't hard, and she went right to that closed off emotionally frozen place most Acting I students go when doing a dramatic monologue. Paul Hogan, on the other hand, hit it right out of the park. -
strange that a super advanced civilization didn't have orbital platforms/outposts!
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This season is going to be a treat. If this is what you get, I think writers should strike more often! (But to keep the machine going, directors should rehearse and improv episodes with their actors, a la Mike Leigh)
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I think this is one of the only examples of Tv (other than The Wire) where i completely trust the writers of the show. i know whatever they have in store for us for the next 9 eps is going to be superb
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It does.
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The show is very weak on scifi. I keep saying it. The drama is excellent and the last episode was possibly the best yet. Olmos was allowed to cut loose. BUT the writers do NOT grasp science fiction!
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Who the fuck seriously says shit like this? "I think this is one of the only examples of Tv (other than The Wire) where i completely trust the writers of the show." Please say you are drunk while posting to explain that away.
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So just because these women who have been notoriously strong since the conception of this show have collapsed under this enormous failure of a mission makes RDM an anti-female empowerment creator? Think about the characters for crying out loud...how would the woman who made it her mission to lead and get the people to "earth" react when confronted with the reality of the situation. Did you not notice Adama losing his mind? How about Leoban abandoning Kara when things got to serious for him after his stalkerish pursuit after all these years? Male crew losing it and fighting in the hallways of Galactica? Surely only the women lost it right? Except there's Athena (and Helo)....who despite the setback don't crawl into a hole but do right by there kid. There was plenty of fall out and not only women. I'm not trying to get into a thing here but it's kind of an asinine statement.
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and suddenly, so much freshness... I was affraid the series would just waste a bit each week 'till the end, and the fourth season would be just a prolonged ending; but suddenly an episode like this reinvigorates the character so much, even pushing them over the edge... Leoben without that sureness, Roslin completely hopeless, Baltar focused, Adama sucidal. Missed number six though.
And now, just 9 episodes. Hope they keep the level, and end it perfectly. -
She lives in a world where Cylons reappear looking exactly the same. She finds out people very close to her, going way back to Boomer, are Cylons. Yet she starts screeching "what am I?". One would fucking assume you were a Cylon, and at that time (and timeline wise probably not for a while) is the final Cylon revealed. Clearly Cylons can't recognize the final five. But at no point did she ever ask if she was A Cylon. That would have been my first thought upon seeing my dead body with a frequently dead cylon at my side.
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From the very beginning she has made the absolute worst possible decisions. I thought she was the final Cylon with all those idiot moves. Or maybe she was a metaphor for Bush. But definitely was never competent.
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Where was Fat Gay Chiefs kid? Fuck there are only two human/cylon hybrids, shouldn't they be playing together?
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But she knows shes not. They tested her repeatedly when she got back enough to assume they know and shes knows she has nothing in relation to a Cylon.
Shes something else, she just doesnt know what it is yet. My guess, she is a Count Iblis type, not exactly THE devil, but not thinking in the best interests of the human race subconsciously. -
No Mars colony, no moon colony. Yet you can get an Avacado.
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...pretty much the point that was established, in the other BSG TB.
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They frequently mention there is no test for Cylons. In her reality there are only humans and Cylons, now two hybrid kids. She has only two choices. With the facts in evidence she should have been prancing around tearfully exclaiming she is a "different" Cylon model.
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I've been reading Scalzi's Old Man's War and he mentions that their skip drives drop them into alternate universes. Here we have people who can create FTL but NEVER conceive of an Alternate universe. Even Stargate dropped into a couple over the decades.
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I thought it was beautiful and had a lot of resonance for Tigh's character. For me, I had never bought the fact that Tigh was a Cylon and it continually rankled me. Now that I saw the final Cylon reveal it really made me feel the pathos of the struggle. I mean how heartbreaking is it that Tigh lost Ellen and then lost her again? That was very powerful to me and it's really made me reinvest in Tigh being a Cylon.
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they should all cut open their hands, jam a UBS wire into their palm and see if they interact with a computer. The Eights do it all the time.
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Very good stuff! I hope they keep it up throughout the next 9 episodes.
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In the other BSG thread, MurderMostFowl pointed out how this series uses a lot of touchstones, from the original series.
In that series the Glactica found a planet called Terra (Latin for Earth, as we all know) which they thought was Earth. It obviously turned out that it wasn't.
The fact that Ron Moore played around that question makes me think this won't be the actual, final Earth they've been seeking. I have no specific theory how they'll do it; but I think this Earth they are on now is not the final destination of the show.
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Sure, this is probably just one of those coincidences, but I wish it was intentionally important, just because Dee has always been one of my favorites and and I don't want her to go!
http://tinyurl.com/7973fv -
paul hogan is crocodile dundee.
michael hogan is colonel saul mother frakkin' tigh.
and yes, he did. -
Maybe the humans don't have a test for 'Cylonocity' but the Cylons do, they referred to it in this episode when they were identifying the skeletons.
Also RDM says in the interview linked above that this is Earth, not some other planet.
He didn't play around the question, he stated ategorically that it was Earth.
Anyway I just watched it and I have to say, one of the best yet. Despite the fact that this show constantly springs surprises on me, I was genuinely knocked for six when Dee killed herself. I was literally just saying "Ah they've shown her looking at pictures of her family, you're going to find out this is a lie and she's the final model.." when BAM!
And fuck me, Ellen Tigh is the final model???
Goddamn, I tell you what, I don't care if you like or hate sci-fi, you have to give this show credit for the constant flow of ingenuity and invention -
sorry to bring this up, but check the archives folks... I gave Ellen to you 8 months ago.
"final tigh-lon
by altoandando Apr 13th, 2008
06:44:52 PM
witheringly good episode.
folks, the last cylon is ellen. look at how tigh is looking at her, and lee's body language as well.
the emperious cylon queen is Ellen Tigh folks. mark my words."
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Is what I meant to say
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The interviewer asked if essentially this was the one and only Earth. He said this was the Earth the 13th tribe set up, this was the Earth they were looking for. What he didn't say was if this was the one and only Earth, if this was OUR Earth. He slyly left open the possibility that a new planet could be discovered and become a new Earth.
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It's obvious that something will happen which will make her believe again. The people were meant to follow her, NOT Starbuck (although only Starbuck and Leoben know about the 'harbinger of death' prophecy). Who knows what the hell RDM and the others have left up their sleeve. But it better be actual PLOT and not 8 episodes of filler with a crazy finale.
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Christ, did I say Paul Hogan? Thanks for correcting me, as I was apparently drunk or watching Crocodile Dundee when I made that post.
I love how Tigh gets stronger as everyone around him goes all to pieces. Just awesome watching him step up to the plate while everyone else goes all emo. His discovery at the end also gives another angle to his moment with Hoshi from the webisodes, when Hoshi was asking for a raptor to go looking for Gaeta, and one or the other said something about "haven't we lost enough already?"
Just awesome. -
For this line alone Edward James Olmos is God.
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...is that the planet they eventually find and settle on they will name "Earth" in honor of the planet they were looking for and found. And it will be OUR Earth.Moore has already stated that the found planet is Earth, but this could be a loophole out of that...it was, but it wasn't OUR earth...yet.
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and they will get there and find evidence that the people living there are the decendants of the people from Terra and they ended up doing what the Galactica is doing right now..going to the nearest habitable planet and colonizing it. Down the road there will be issues and the planet will be blown up again forcing them all to leave and seperate and start the cycle over.
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are Cylons, or descendants of. That's my theory. No one knows it yet.
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All series, it's been about the humans creating the cylons, and the cylons evolve... well, on Earth, it was the cylons who created the humans who founded the Colonies. Been a theory since season two. And someone give altoandando a medal, for being the zillionth person to guess Ellen Tigh. ;-)
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I got that old Rod Serling feeling when the 13th Tribe turned out to be ALL CYLONS... if it's us, that's so cornball yet perfect. We're all frakkin' Cylons...
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caused the explosion that killed the inhabitants of this "earth". She's the harbinger of death in their mythology...
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... doubtful. After 2000 years the remnants of Starbuck's ship would've disintegrated, nor would the beacon have lasted that long. Of course I speak with absolute authority on this... the writers will do whatever the frak they want. Oh, and is anybody else offended by KFC's promo 'Frak Pack?'
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What I want to know is what kind of crazy magic rubber they created that would let that little rubber ball (next to the jacks) survive a nuke and 2000 years exposed to the elements.
On a similar note, I can't help but remember the fact that (at least as of a couple of seasons ago) a good chunk of the cylon army was busy "de-nuking" Caprica and presumably the other colonies. I seem to remember them planting trees, installing CFL's, etc. Makes me wonder if they might A) turn Earth into a giant Cylon superfund site or B) are planning a giant surprise party for everyone back on Caprica.
And what about Kobal? That seemed like the most livable planet they found, landmines not withstanding. -
We are total assholes. We nuked Earth because the cylons colonized it. 2000 years later the cylons nuke us back.
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Is D a cylon? She found jacks from when she was a kid, and a locket of her parents? Or what was the deal. I don't understand. I thought she was a Cylon and that's why she killed herself.. Meaning there were actually a Final 6, maybe even more.
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It was a lush green planet reasonably close to the Colonies. They could settle there and ferry any shit they need from their old home. Why has Kobol been forgotten? o_O
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She found the jacks period. They weren't hers. They were just there. What made you think they were hers? Also, the locket she had already.
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We knew enough about Dualla that she was a strong, empowered woman who may have lost out in love with Apollo but in comparison to someone like Gaeta I always got a sense that she was the strong positive one and that he was a weak and doubting one. I just get the feeling that if you were going to bump anyone off for not being able to take it anymore it would have been hopalong Gaeta rather than Dee... a shame, seemed somewhat hurried and needless...
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I just CAN'T STAND Kara Thrace. So much time wasted on her weirdness. High maintenance masquerading as "deep" or "conflicted." I cheered when she bit it and I have now had to suffer with her return. That just makes her a repeat offender. UGH.
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Maybe,there is a time warp and the time warp works like this: Maybe they are not the future looking at the past. Maybe they are the past looking at the future. Then I can retain some hope that at some point. Kara Thrace will die and stay dead, and her corpse is evidence of this. I feel so much better now. I HATE that character.
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We voted it on it. You suck. The end.
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This is the same guy who removed Katee Sackhoff's name from BSG's credits after Starbuck died, and he told interviewers that she was gone from the show. Then, when Starbuck later returned, Moore just shrugged and laughed. He's happy to mislead the media in order to spring surprises on the viewers.
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No right minded executive producer is going to give away his story before it's aired - regardless of how pointed and direct the interviewer's questions are.
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Nice catch. It does seem out of character for her. There is a well known expression that says "Suicide is a PERMANENT solution to a TEMPORARY problem." (Suicide is really no solution at all, but I'm sure you get the point.)If any Galactica character understood that expression, you think it would be Dualla. Clearly, she was always among those in the BSG fleet with the "Never give up" mentality.
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"this has all happened before"
We are all cylons. Get it? Humans make machines. Machines kill humans. Machines take human form. Make mistake (again). Lather, rinse, repeat. At one point, machine return to Earth, fuck it up (again?). Cyclic nature of history and all that. -
Let's remember that not only has she lost her entire family, she lost Billy, her husband loves a woman who is the illustration next to the definition of "high maintenance" in the urban dictionary, and just learned that the one thing tat essentially kept her going - the idea of a new home in Earth is a radioactive wasteland. I think every person in this world has a breaking point. You can only push someone so far before they reach it. you may not agree, but Dee wanted one last happy moment because she felt there couldn't be anything else to look forward to. She wanted to take control of how the rest of her life would be and that included having her last moment be that of joy.
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The scriptures tell them every visit to Kobol they have to pay in bloodshed- someone dies every time they land. Also, they believe death on kobol is permanent- your soul dies as well there. Now, going to New Caprica on the other hand...
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I love the fact that the final Cylon is an aging nymphomaniac, but maybe she's just a Caprica Six that grew old. They seem to share a few character traits. Adama may have hinted towards this in his suicide attempt scene with Tigh when he said that Tigh had aged and lost his hair. I think that Ellen is a red herring.
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yup, it all depends on how you see suicide. This wasn't a situation of giving into depression. This was someone deciding to take control - to have a happy moment and then ending it before anything bad happens. She says it herself. She wants to stay in that moment forever. It is an act of will, not weakness. I'm not saying this is how suicide is in every situation, but it is in this one. And wow, what an amazing scene. Amazing. Just frakin' amazing.
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I'd say, anti-anti-Whedon, in that he took away from us a character that we cared about, right after she gets a happy moment. This was Whedon's MO, especially with Tara. There's a reason why Joss loves BSG.
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From experience, people like Dee are the ones who commit it. Watch the episode again, you'll see what influenced Dee to commit suicide in all of her scenes. totally believable, and a frakking incredible episode of television. It deserves Golden Globes, but alas everyone jumped ship and didn't stay with the journey -- we're getting our rewards now.
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knew the fifth had to be a girl and sure Ellen works as well as any other - count me among those that called her back when she mysteriously appeared out of nowhere - and among those that have called practically every other character at one point or another too, for that matter...
Something was bugging me the whole rest of the ep, after they revealed the entire planet - er, tribe - to be Cylons. Were there more than 12 models?
We all know about lack of diversity and how deadly it can be to a species (remember that crazy virus that only the Starchild could cure?) and besides.. they evolved, right?
So... did Five Cylons resurrect their asses on some crazy Galactica style Arc in search of Kobol when shit started going nuclear - is that what they're trying to sell me? Or was it 12? How does any of that fit into the whole "boxing" mythology the other 7 have been peddling?
Going back to the Ellen thing - how many blonde women did the Cylons decide they NEED anyway? No wonder they friggin blew themselves up! -
Much like with "Lost", I almost gave up on this series at one point when I felt it was treading water. Also like "Lost", a friend of mine instructed me to go back, watch all of the episodes I'd missed using the power of internet downloading and then witness some spectacular television.Both of these shows have rewarded my investment.Which is the better show? I truly don't know. All I know is that these two shows have demonstrated that we're still capable of making classic, gripping television in 2009.
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(1) Ellen is NOT the last unknown Cylon model we will see. Ellen is a 7 - the one "skinjob" purposely boxed during the show's entire run. Why has Ellen been boxed - save for one instance - all this time ? Maybe only the TRUE "5th special Cylon" knows for sure .. and we STILL do not know who the "5th" really is.We have not yet been to the "real Earth". No idea how Kara's corpse and her Viper got to the planet they found, but the real Earth has yet to be visited by Colonial humanity.THAT IS ALL.
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The thing is there's two types of depression as far as I'm concerned. There is the quick immediate kind. You get just all worked up and upset over something immediate. And if it's bad enough maybe you lose your sense of reason and kill yourself. But then there is also the longer term depression. The kind where it might or might not be caused by something real or logical. Maybe it's intense or maybe its low key. But it just... hangs around. And if you have that, you just have to learn to deal with it. What else you gonna do? I agree with what others have said. Dualla had plenty of trauma to cause some long term, low key depression. And through all the crap the one thing she had to combat it was Earth and how it represented getting some happiness back. Then, boom, the dream of Earth turns to crap. First, that would be enough to cause immediate depression in anyone. For Dualla though it was just her one good thing being ruined and... I can totally see her planning a final happy night so that she could go out on a happy instead of, as she must have felt, continuing to slog on into a likely doomed future where she'd might die a much worse death.
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I guess they don't watch the show. Not one episode. Say it isn't so. alas
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The distinction between what is Cylon and what is Human has been getting blurred further and further throughout the series. Removing the resurrection hub has made the rebel cylons effectively mortal .. the reverse seems to have happened to Starbuck. I think its just possible that being cylon or being human comes down to a matter of choice, of taking the road to immortality or staying mortal. I think the end of the series will come down to every single human and cylon making this choice for themselves, and forming two new colonies. Whether the cycle will be broken, who knows? I think an open-ended conclusion would fit perfectly ... and I think Kara and Lee will end up on different sides.
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The distinction between what is Cylon and what is Human has been getting blurred further and further throughout the series. Removing the resurrection hub has made the rebel cylons effectively mortal .. the reverse seems to have happened to Starbuck. I think its just possible that being cylon or being human comes down to a matter of choice, of taking the road to immortality or staying mortal. I think the end of the series will come down to every single human and cylon making this choice for themselves, and forming two new colonies. Whether the cycle will be broken, who knows? I think an open-ended conclusion would fit perfectly ... and I think Kara and Lee will end up on different sides.
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Jan 18, 2009 8:16:45 AM CST
"Okay Timmy, do you want a 2 piece or a 3 piece dinner?"
by l.h.puttgrass
"Mamma, I wanna Frak Pack!!" :-)
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They're all space Mormons. Look for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young to show up in the finale. Also Cottle is God.
And now a quick primer on There, They're and Their.
There is a place i.e. "We are going over there." / "There is a book on the table."
Their is something that belongs to a person of group of people. ie. "That is their book." / "Those are their cars."
They're is a conjunction of They Are. i.e. "They're the students." / "They're going swimming."
Thank you Schoolhouse Rock -
I keep hearing people talk about a boxed 7th cylon. Including Ellen, I count 12. Someone said they thought Ellen might be the 7th. Someone pleas explain to a dummy I like me.
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The constellations are Earth's... that seems to indicate it's the "real Earth" pretty much no matter what, since we saw our own night sky in the temple of blahbittyblah and Gaeta said they were the same... (though stars move over time and the patterns wouldn't stay recognizable forever... hrmmm) - It gets more and "Moore" complicated as we go.
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Great episode! So many fitting interpretations of past events, expanding the story in a very meaningful way.
Plus, it's clear that real science fiction writers are at the show's helm. No clunkiness to be found, and the scenes with Starbuck, Dualla, Tigh, and the Adamas challenged my brain. I'm really wondering how the big ending is going to unfold. -
Yeah, it was about taking control over her end... a stoic, existential kind of act. But man, I wasn't expecting that. I jumped when the shot went off. Gaeta saying "it's OK, get a Medic" with his knees covered in her expanding brains was so pathetic it hurt. I can totally buy that she did it, but it also feels like the writers are just working through a list of mindfrak plot twists they brainstormed when drunk. "And then we'll have (hic) Duwwwaawaa off hershefff... (hic)... That'll frak widdem... (hic)"
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if we weren't to begin with, we sure the frak are now. Take a pile of questions of personal identity that make your mind hurt, and toss them into an infinite hall of mirrors, and then let an angry bull run through the hall of mirrors while you're on acid. Heck, with the immortality themes and the ranting hybrids, BSG is getting dangerously close to "Zardoz" weird. I like it though. Star Trek would never take chances like this.
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and the numbers are 1 (Cavill), 2 (Leoben), 3 (Deanna), 4 (Simon), 5 (Doral), 6 (Six), and 8 (Sharon). So the 7 being skipped among the "known" cylons is a little odd. But that still makes a total of 12 models. The final five are 7, 9, 10, 11, 12 (but names and numbers have not yet been associated)
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Ah... so good to know that Moore had absolutely no plan until the third season... when the quality of the show went down, I might add. Honestly, I was really hoping he would come out and say that he thought this all out from the beginning and that Ellen was the final Cylon from the days of the pilot mini-series. Instead, he basically admits there was no plan, and the brainless mind enema we ended up with is explained with "we didn't know either". That much, Mr. Moore, is quite clear.
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This is not in exact order
1: Cavel
2: Leoben
3: Diana
4: Black Dude
5: Small white reporter dude
6: 6
7: Sharon
I have heard a few people say the same thing about the 7th and people are not doing thier math! -
even the cylons refer to Sharons model as 8's
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you don't like the answers despite them being SPOONFED TO US while watching the show, doesn't mean it's not true. But by all means, keep sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "LA LA LA LA!"
THAT is all. :) -
Yes, "And they have a plan." When it becomes clear that the team in charge did not.The new rub. I love this show. Still do. But the interview with Moore, Weddle, Thompson et al just reinforces why Ellen is a weak choice. They did all the poison-pouring, scheming, double crossing and wife killing WITHOUT knowing that she was the final Cylon. Probably without even really knowing that Tigh was. It also means that the Tigh/Ellen story turns out to have been pivotal to the entire series? Yeah, don't buy it. It's not even that my theory of Gaeta was wrong, it's that they took the cheap way out by choosing someone who was dead and who doesn't really affect the story. Admittedly it's the least cheap dead person (Cally? Please.), but still, cheap.
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So you are mad at Moore for not having a plan even though, according to you, the quality of the show went down right when he got a plan? Exactly what answer would have pleased you? Except for a very few exceptions, its unrealistic to expect shows to have everything planned out beforehand. Storylines grow and evolve, and that is a good thing.
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As pointed out the known skin job models were 1-6 and 8. Ellen is a 7. Peculiar. Were the '8' models supposed to be part of the 13th tribe, but missed out for some reason? Maybe why the 8s have been even more conflicted over the series..
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But, the flaws of the series were on display here. The suicide made little sense. And I'm not talking about in the "wow, I never saw that coming!" way. It's just yet another example of the cart driving the horse with BSG. She has a great night and by all indications she's going to get back together with Lee and she blows her brains out? Dollars to doughnuts that they offed Dualla in order to clear the way for the Starbuck / Apollo romance they know all the BSG "shippers" want. Again, it smacks of events being manipulated to service the plot rather than vice versa. But, just think about the exaggerated and overwrought response within the fleet to the bad news about "Earth." The disciplined, though stressed, crew of the Galactica comes apart at the seams and discipline goes completely out the window with crewmen completely ignoring protocol all the way up to the Admiral who stalks the corridors with a drawn sidearm. Then there's the president who goes from considering the people in the fleet to be her flock to looking at all those expectant faces and not even being able to muster a word for them. I dunno. Maybe the complexity of these characters just eludes me and I'm a dunce. But, nobody on this show ever seems to operate like a typical human being in my experience.
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"nobody on this show ever seems to operate like a typical human being in my experience."I'd have to disagree with you there (particularly your statement that "the suicide made little sense" and comments on the "exaggerated and overwrought response within the fleet to the bad news about Earth").Consider the situation here. They've just discovered Earth and not only is it empty but it's a nuclear wasteland. All of their dreams and all of their hopes - gone. This isn't just one Battlestar - it's the only one left. Are you really surprised about the reaction which occured? Have you ever been in a situation of complete hopelessness? You just want to fold yourself into a little ball and do absolutely nothing.And the suicide made perfect sense. Dualla made her peace, had her perfect day, and then killed herself. Just because the writers didn't spell out her emotional state for the audience to see, doesn't mean it "made little sense".I think that one of the strongest things about BSG is that the character often do operate "like a typical human being". It's what elevates BSG above most other sci-fi shows.But that's just my opinion.
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I had a lot more to say but it seems to have disappeared. I can't be bothered to type it all again.Damn you AICN for eating three quarters of my post!
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Just re-purveying The Hybrid Theory.....
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could be the population of Earf
Sometime durring /after the Colonial / Cylon war, the colonial cylon toasters came across / found / discovered / met Earf Cylons. They either reversed engineered the Earf Cylons or there was some kind of information exchange.
Theres still some big behind the scenes Colonial Cylon mastermind I think.
I think the Earf Cylons got caught up in the colonial mess. Some may have colobrated with Colonial Cylons, some may not. -
chromedome good point
Hybrid could also mean a Colonial Cylon / Earf Cylon hybrid.
Doesn't have to mean human / cylon hybrid -
Traditionally, 6=the number of the devil, 7=the number of god. Hence, there is no model 7, and I also think that's why the model 6's have been so important to the series, and why in-head 6 always appears in red.
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ronald moore has publicly stated that the final 5 have no model numbers, because they are unique.
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Nice thinking, unfortunately the writers were shortsighted enough to let Grace Park choose her own number between 1 and 12 for her model before they knew they were going to do the whole Final Five thing, and she picked 8. So then they were screwed. The absence of model 7 will not be explained most likely, and if they could go back and replace every instance of someone saying "8" with "7," they'd do it.
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I've had that theory since like season 2. I hope the writers DO try to explain it somehow, they've gotten pretty good at making stuff up as they go along while also tying it pretty seamlessly into previous episodes (ellen as the fifth is a good example of this).
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that some people here are consumers and not producers. They're the ones crying about "they lied about having a plan!"
Newsflash. Sometimes when writing, you can have a plan and still have room for changes within that plan, the addition of new ideas over four years.
You can also throw so many single elements into the overall story that you wind up with puzzle pieces that click together on their own to give you something you never counted on.
Quit fucking whining about whether they had a plan or not. Enjoy it or don't. -
"Maybe the complexity of these characters just eludes me and I'm a dunce."Yes, it eludes you.Yes you're a dunce.
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remember when Tigh started having difficulty telling them apart?
means they don't necessarily go over their quota on dumb blonde models too...
so... those Final Five flashbacks seem to suggest there is a resurrection hub nearby that survived the holocaust - do you suppose anyone on Galactica bothered to have a look around the neighbourhood for "man-made" artifacts? Even if they didn't, seemed like the Cylons were pretty much on top of things, but I'm guessing nobody has looked for or indeed will find Jack or Shit... -
Sweet dee shot herself in the head? I think we all saw that coming. - what dennis would probably say
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I'd just like to clarify for those of us who are mentioning the idea of creators versus Cylon plans.Of course real-world considerations get in the way of doing everything letter-for-letter in an elaborate, large-scale, years long story. I think it would be silly for us to think that they've had any sort of years-long plan that dictates every move made by the show. On-screen chemistry happens, actors pan out or don't, storylines don't have the impact they initially thought. It's reality. And for any piece of art without that concreteness in every decision, like every TV show, it still stands head and shoulders above pretty much everything else.It just miffs me a little that they prefaced the first couple years of the show with the idea that the Cylons were working off a master plan with a definite endpoint. But we can see now, and hear in the writers' own words, that they may not have even known what that plan was. It's just a little disingenuous to have based their story on the conceit without knowing what the conceit was. It's not on the level of say a JJ Abrams and his "what's in the box isn't important, it's the tease before lifting the lid that's important" (referring to Alias primarily, and Cloverfield, not Lost), but still a bit hinky. It's still amazing storytelling, occasional (perceived by some, not absolute) misstep aside. And the fact that so much thought goes into everything from a character perspective in particular, is one of the most heartening things. I sure as hell couldn't have done better. We just could have gone without some of the Final Five-centric marketing if they weren't even initially, and still may not be, intended to be a be-all-end-all key to the storytelling. They try to say that they didn't want it to become the firestorm that it did, and in a big way we're all responsible for getting so caught up in what was never truly meant to be a central mystery, but they also let it get out of hand by feeding the beast. Yet another reason why we fans are often the worst thing to happen to the things we love.
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Way to go Cards!
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We've seen mysteries burn out of the creator's control before. Most notably Twin Peaks. Lynch NEVER wanted to reveal who killed Laura Palmer, but was forced to by the viewers.
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Your "taking control" comment is very insightful IMHO.Taking control WAS characteristic of Dualla (It can be said that she typically found a way to take control). She decided to move on from Billy. She let Apollo go when she saw it wasn't working out.IMHO it was more in keeping with the character to take control of her disappointment with Earth in a way other than suicide.In Season 2, Dee convinced Adama to reunite the fleet as a family and find it a home, which happened to be Earth. What's key is that if Dee had been HERSELF - rather than suicidal - in the midst of the crew falling apart, she would've gone to Adama one-on-one and convinced him to find a home for the fleet on another Earth type planet.Instead, Adama makes the decision because of Col. Tigh (great scene, though in what was an overall great episode).
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Very good post agree with all you say to also add the other consideration and one which both makers of the show and actors have stressed is that SciFi has never known how to sell the show, they honestly have had no clue what to really do with it. So when the fans picked up on certain things and ran with it that then became for a time the source of motivation behind all the marketing. The stand alone movie coming out later in the year will deal with the whole "Plan" aspect but honestly if it had'nt been added into the intro in the first place would we have even seen that...personally am all for getting as much BSG out of this current incarnation as possible so wont complaint too much.
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just looks like Starbuck. An agent of the "Beings of Light" like Apollo was in the original Battlestar episode "Experiment in Terra".
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I'm sorry, but when it's been a year since the last new episode, I really have lost all interest in this series.
I didn't rewatch the last few episodes, and went into this one cold. My reaction was "Meh." BSG you have lost me. -
IMHO it is time for a Hybrid Theory Season 4.5 update - so please purvey!
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Where's the lost talk back! Love Bizzlestar but could use a little Lost to get excited yo!
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i was insanely in love with this show all the way until exodus ended and then i lost interest.....but I have caught up and its back on track!!
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I still believe that the One D'Anna Apologized To in the Temple/Opera House was The Hybrid.So it could be that she did not see the Five, per se, but rather the Four + Hybrid. This would be why she was so certain, in advance, that the Fifth was not in the fleet. Ellen is, apparently, indeed the Fifth, but the Orchestrator (remember in the Temple of Jupiter ep, they mentioned the Five serving the One multiple times) is, in my theory, the Hybrid.This Hybrid Theory Season 4.5 Update was brought to you by Chromedome, at the request of His Honor, the hubris-free NoHubris.
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I recall that Berman rejected scripts, because they contradicted Star Trek technology. In other words, Ron Moore doesn't give a fuck if BSG follows some idiot geek's idea of what "sci/fi" should be. He is trying to tell a kick ass story, and he doesn't care if it contradicts science! Maybe you should be watching reruns of Star Trek: Enterprise for some "acceptable" science/fiction.
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This episode really pushes me on something that's been bothering me for four seasons now. What ARE the skin jobs?? What are they made out of?? Cottle must've done autopsies, I'd like to see those. There are bones on earth that identified as Cylon from DNA, which suggests that the Skin Jobs are human in every other way. But they have super strength, can recieve messages and signals and be "switched on" and when the women "climax", they're spine glows.
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re-watching season 1. it is pretty aparent that ellen is a cylon. Everything she did before we found out she was the fifth was interesting but finding out she is a cylon just adds a whole new dimension to her actions. Especially when she didnt remember Zak dying and how she got onto the ising star.
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The only problem with that is, as Moore himself notes in the interview Herc linked to, the writers didn't firmly decide that Ellen was a Cylon until midway through the first half of this final season. There wasn't even an inkling of an official suggestion by the writers until AFTER she died. So none of the scheming and bitchiness and layers that we can see in hindsight were intentional. She was, at that time, just Tigh's crazy ex-wife. Which means that it's all just retcon, and while it's decent retcon (probably some of the neatest I've ever seen, taken overall), it still feels off. We can look for, and even claim to find, all the hidden meaning we want, but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't there on purpose, and the choice of Ellen was far more seat-of-the-pants than any of us fans clamoring for deeper meaning want to think. Again, I'll freely admit it's seat-of-the-pants thinking that WORKS, but only to a point. I still believe there would have been more satisfying choices.
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Just to clarify, I'm not bitching out of ordinary fan wank. I love stories in any form, and BSG has been one hell of a great story. I don't care how it's come together, and I don't think that "my choice is better so I'm gonna go make fan fiction about it". That is fan wank of the highest, most awful order. This is not MY story. This is RDM and Co.'s story. I just think that I personally am speaking from a place of looking at both the story that has emerged to this point, and the press that has been done/things that have been said about motivation BEHIND said story. Don't know why I felt the need to draw the distinction, I just didn't like how "I still believe there would have been more satisfying choices" rang out at the end of my last post. It smelled of fan wank, and (despite the fact that I'm posting on and have written regularly for Aint It Cool - thank you very much S60 and Daisies) I hate me some fan wank.
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You don't know how her Viper wound up blown to bits on the 13th Tribe's version of Earth, nor how she is still alive. Let's hope in the next 9 episodes there's a reasonable explanation and closure unlike Lost which creates more questions than answers.
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She was the Uhuru of Battlestar Galactica. But much sexier, with those green eyes and the lips.
Sigh..... -
I couldn't help but think of Luke Skywalker burning Annakin's body in his Darth suit when I saw Starbuck burning her double's corpse. Might Starbuck's character arc(s) have those Joseph Campbell "hero story arc" thingies conciously applied by the writers? (And wait... didn't we see her ship EXPLODE? How many times has she died and been reborn so far?)
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I can't believe how depressing this show is now. I really had high hopes after season 1, show jumped shark on new crapica.
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>>“Sometimes A Great Notion” (named, it turns out, for one of my favorite novels)<<
The song "Goodnight Irene" is one of your favorite novels? "Sometimes I live in the country / Sometimes I live in town / Sometimes I have a great notion / Jumpin' in into the river and drown" -
Boy, this board doesn't handle line breaks well, does it? What I was saying is... The song "Goodnight Irene" is one of your favorite novels? "Sometimes I live in the country / Sometimes I live in town / Sometimes I have a great notion / Jumpin' in into the river and drown."
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Okay, I'm an idiot I should have read the interviews first. The episode title came from the novel. Weddle doesn't seem to be aware that he's quoting from an old folk song, thinks it's a children's rhyme. Interesting. Anyway, I stand corrected.
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We are gonna see a flashback of when Duella is babysitting that filty cylon kid, and the kid uses mind control to make Dee her puppet! FFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
That would be one hell of a ridiculous swerve, wouldn't it? -
I've never been a fan of time travel as a plot device, but I have a sneaky feeling that may show up here somewhere. 2000 year old dead starbuck could be covered with a little time travel, and perhaps everyone travels back/forward in time and nukes the hell out of a cylon civilization? Payback is a bitch?
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This is the crappest aspect of the Cylon choices to me... that all the heads of the New Caprica resistence that were fighting for the filthy hu-mans against the Cylons are actually Cylons!
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Is what starbuck is. Simple as that. She died on Earth, like them, and was brought back, just like they were. She is not a cylon but they used the same tech to bring her back.
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Hey everyone, has anyone thought about this.....Everyone is a cylon. There are really no humans or cylons. Just a thought, didn't know if someone had said that before.
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It seems like I remember reading something in an interview with the writers stating that the Final Five don't have model numbers like the other Cylons.My thought is on the missing model 7 is that it was either a model that was boxed permanently or the model had some sort of inherit flaw discovered in the design process or perhaps after the prototype was created. It seems to me that the models got progressively more human-like in their nature and behavior. I think its possible that the model created before the Sharon model may have been unstable for some reason and they abandoned that line and tried again, this time successfully creating the #8 model.
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after reading the latest batch of BSG interviews is that the writers DIDN'T have a plan, and kinda made things up as they went along....had they KNOWN from the beginning who would be cylons it might have bought more depth, now i get the feeling that part of what they have done is try to hard to fool the fans- kinda of a "lets see what they make of this!" or "they thought they figured it out, well lets try..." and that explains the unevenness of the series....I still love the show, but it is disappointment to hear that they Didnt have a plan....
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I know what you mean. I guess it shouldn't matter, and if the last episodes are absolutely awesome and everything ties up then it shouldn't matter how they got there but this nagging part of me kind of wishes Ron Moore had just kept that to himself.
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my gods, people! When has there EVER been a show in which every plot point was thought out and planned from the very beginning and stayed consistent throughout? Most of you don't seem to have any clue how serialized television writing actually works. In most cases, the writers have a beginning and an end, and what happens in the middle is a situation of 'making it up as you go along' because different writers come in with new ideas, actors contribute different things, budget, availability, schedule (esp. with a strike), compatibility, fan response - all these things are a part of the process. The writers figured out that Ellen was the final cylon 2 years ago! Isn't that enough pre-planning for you? Sheesh. I'm so sick of this stupid complaint. BSG is probably more well planned out than any other show on tv, with the possible exception of Lost.
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Babylon 5 I think was mostly planned out from the beginning, although I believe thats the exception to the rule.
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I MEAN CYLON!!!
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She almost looks like an anime character.
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i agree--i really with ron moore hadn't said that they were making it up as they went along...it would making going back and watching the earlier episodes more fun because there are connections and implications that could be made with what we know now...knowing they're making it up doesn't make me not like the show, but it really takes alot of the fun out of the replay value. it doesn't matter at all when watching new episodes for the first time, though...but i will be far less motivated to go back and watch the earlier episodes.
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GALACTICA 1980 is the nadir of all art, culture, and human conciousness.
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It should be called BROODINGSTAR GALACTICA. Also: how do they manufacture all of their stuff? Like, whiskey for instance. Is there a distillery on the ship? When you start to pick the show apart it becomes profoundly silly. I still like it, though.
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It's on the flight deck, as seen in series 2.
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Most characters on Battlestar Galactica should NOT be smiling, I think, based on the existential predicament they've run into. Earth was hope, Earth was salvation, and now there's nothing. Would you be smiling, Laserpants?
Also, it's been shown many times that characters are making whiskey, and it's also been shown how Galactica harvests planetary resources, so it's plausible they would've put more resources into making whiskey, right? Especially with the spiking demand for it? Makes sense to me.
I'm hoping everyone'll be drinking whiskey and smiling by the show's end, but now isn't the time for it. -
The regeneration thing was a human invention back in the day to ensure they survived cylon attacks etc, only they were resurrected into genetically engineered bodies which weren't exactly human - then the cylons got a hold of this and figured out how to download themselves into these bodies too... just thinkin aloud here coz its been ages since the last episode and I've forgotten nearly every detail of the story so far... all that religious mumbo jumbo turned me off big time, but this episode dragged me back in...
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Why does writer intent have to dictate your viewing experience? I think that if a show is rich enough (like BSG is), you can go back and read interesting things into scenes, even if the writers hadn't intended it. For instance, when we first met Ellen in season 1, InHead 6 says to Baltar "watch out for this one." At the time, it was meant to raise suspicion about her possible cylonity since she came out of nowhere, but was eventually dismissed. But now that line has a completely different resonance. I often go back and rewatch earlier episodes of a show equipped with later information that the writers didn't even have at the time it was originally aired (works for Buffy). In other words, I think there are many possibilities for viewing a show (or reading a book for that matter) that aren't limited to 'intent.'
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you're right, i take back most of what i said. i still wish he hadn't admitted it,though...but now that you've talked sense into me i remembered that i have gone back and watched every episode since midway through season 3 at least 3 times, 1st for myself 2nd for a group of friends in my frat house at usc i got into the show, and 3rd with my dad...when i was going back and watching all those episodes for the 3rd time i speculated with my friends and my dad about clues and hints in those episodes, even though i had known he was making it as he went... so i'm doing what so few people here do--changing my opinion because another poster made a better point than me... too many people on this site are too proud to ever think about changing their view because of a good counterpoint someone brings up... they'd rather fight and insult each other.
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ellen is 7
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if the writer is good and cares about his creation, he'll go back and make sure theres no plot holes which always take a little piece of the shows soul when rewatching it. "what couldve been"
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...That it's Ellen - hoped for a more integral character. Oh well, maybe it's not her after all!
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...consider whether the reveal that this character is a Cylon will create new dramatic tensions, or just replay old ones. If it just repeats played-out tensions then it shouldn't be that character. The betrayed loyalty of Adama has been played-out with Tigh, so making it anyone close to him is pointless, so it's not Roslin or Apollo. That leaves Adama himself and Baltar, Baltar wouldn't surprise any of the crew, so count him out, leaving us with Adama and he is the guy that got them this far. Starbuck's a wild card - she's had so many arcs that it this rule doesn't apply to her, but it would explain her reappearance in the Viper far too conveniently for writers of this caliber, so i'm guessing there's something else up their sleeves for her...
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yeah, it really had to be someone who's not part of the story now, but whose loss is still felt because we cared about them (sorry, Zak). The only other candidate would be Callie, and frankly, that character just wouldn't have the presence or the gravitas to be so deeply caught up in the plot. We may not have cared about Ellen at first, but we sure as heck did after New Caprica. Plus the fact that this adds further shades to Tigh, one of the most interesting characters on the show, and gives him something to fight for. I think Ellen is the perfect choice.
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I was out of town over the weekend and just saw Friday's ep. I only glanced through the talkbacks, so if this has been mentioned forgive me. If there are only 12 cylons, and the planet we saw was comprised solely of cylons, who were those people in Tyrol's flashback? There was at least one discernible face (a woman)that wasn't one of the twelve and the other people we saw at the market were definitely not of the twelve. So, what gives? As far as the suicide...I thought it was fitting. If you absolutely know a certain moment will be the best experience you're ever likely to have, I can see the logic in killing yourself. Throw in the fact that she knows any real relationship with Apollo, given their history and the imminent extinction of man, could never happen, and you have a pretty good argument for suicide. Always leave on a high note...
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As the title suggests, this may have already been posted, has anyone considered that humans are the 12th cylon model? one that was designed to mutate in a sense so each one would look different? I could be way off but I think it's an interesting possibility :D
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having had a day or two to process...
I think maybe their FIRST theory was right - the Cylons were the 13th Colony!
maybe the fact they only found Cylon bones is because those are basically artificial and better able to survive after 2000 years - but in fact Cylons AND humans were on Earth 2000 years ago!
remember the Centurian head they found was slightly different to the "colonial" Cylon (oldschool) heads? here's what I think they're getting at:
IT'S OUR EARTH! THIS ACTUAL VERY SAME EARTH!
WE invented Cylons in some point in OUR future, they EVOLVED, there was a WAR, followed by almost but not quite complete annihilation...
A ragtag fleet of arc-style ships get away and eventually form the 12 colonies - and there's also a 13th "tribe" of Cylons who are part of that exodus (the Final Five "fundamentally different" Cylons) who, over the course of 2000 years manage to completely integrate into colonial society to the point where they even forget who they are - maybe there's memory implants (Bladerunner style) at play, like with the original Boomer, who was convinced her whole bullshit life story was legit...
Point is, just because they didn't find HUMAN bones, doesn't mean there weren't any - those are HUMAN artefacts, Brooklyn bridge et al - that is OUR Earth!
WE created the ORIGINAL Cylons!
WE fled from Earth (leaving a Cylon-killing virus to ensure we're not followed) and WE created the 12 COLONIES - and it is OUR offspring who created their OWN Cylons (who still remember our old ways, like the One True God) and had their own Holocaust and fled all the way back to where they came from - Earth!
ALL THIS HAS HAPPENED BEFORE AND WILL HAPPEN AGAIN -
Adama is already looking for a new planet to colonise - what's the bet there will eventually be 12, maybe 13 planets get colonised in, say, the next 8, 9 episodes?
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I actually agree with you that I would like to see a few more "up" moments onthe show. I'm also dying for some actual space battles. Seems like we used to get alot more than we do now.
As for distilleries, remember that there are 50K people on these 200 some odd ships. It doesn't take high tech to create alcohol. Shoot they even have several ships that are party central if you recall.. there's a cruise ship for instance. I wish they had shown more of the infrastructure of the fleet, especially some of the larger ships that appear to have a city like structure. The whole series came to an abrupt shift when they landed on New caprica. They set up this whole new expanding universe and then abruptly let us know that it was going to be getting smaller. I LOVE the show and the stories have been awesome but I can't help but wish they had taken a longer path and squeezed out a couple more seasons. I think there are plenty of other stories that could have happened in that universe. oh well
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Its what LOST creators constantly deny. Its the BS Lucas fed us about the star wars trilogy. Nothing is planned that far in advance. Show me the human that can do this and that person is beyond genius. When you create something it writes itself. If you allow them to stories subconciously prepare the way for revelations such as Ellen as the 5th. Like when Tigh burns out Ellens picture with the cigar. The writers didn't intend for Ellen to be the fifth at that moment...but the story had known, it just wasn't telling the WRITERS just yet. Its the beauty of the process of writing a story or creating a film. Those little beautiful mistakes that aren't mistakes at all. Often when I'm stuck in my writing I look back at whats happened and the answers are hidden underneath it all. Any writer can attest to this.
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3000+ years ago the 12 tribes on Kobol created the Cylons. Those Cylons eventually turned on their masters. In the wake of this conflict the surviving 12 tribes and the Cylons (13th tribe) went their seperate ways and colonized the 12 colonies and Earth.
Around 2000 years ago the 12 colonies went and nuked Earth to wash their hands of what they had created.
Many centuries went by and much was forgotten or lost.
At some point in the last couple hundred years humans created Cylons (this has all happened before and it will happen again).
The only tricky part to explain is the final five being seperated. One theory could be that the original Cylon race consisted only of those 5 skinjob models, while the new Cylon race was the other 7 and by some psychic means (maybe a hybrid or some other foreshadowing) a mythology developed about the final/original 5. Another theory could be that there were many (maybe millions) of Cylon models in the original race but only these 5 survived.
The other problem is resurrection. Presumably these ancient resurrection chambers were on Earth. If so, how did these 5 Cylons live amongst the humans for those thousands of years if every time they died that respawned at Earth? Maybe this is the first and only iteration of those Cylons after the nuking of Earth? -
I mean, after they harvested all of that algae for their food supply. I kind of wondered if there was only way to prepare it and exactly how miserable their existence would be eating slime everyday. No wonder people killed themselves when they saw earth.
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Robbie (The Series Killer) Rist doesn't show up in the next few episodes as "Dr. Zee" to answer all your questions and tie everything up in a nice bow.
Actually, since the series is ending maybe having him show up would be a nice little nod to the original series. No. Just kidding. That would be fucking horrible. -
Robbie (The Series Killer) Rist doesn't show up in the next few episodes as "Dr. Zee" to answer all your questions and tie everything up in a nice bow.
Actually, since the series is ending maybe having him show up would be a nice little nod to the original series. No. Just kidding. That would be fucking horrible. -
And noticing the gap between Tigh and Lee, with a chalice on the table.
Guess that's the seat for Ellen, noted booze-hound. Now what's up with Tyrol's knife, D'anna's pointing, and Six staring off into space? -
If you went back to Caprica in 2000 years you would find a slightly irradiated planet with cylon bones all over it. This is because it was nuked, all the filthy hu-mans were removed and the only inhabitants left are Cylons. We see it at the begining of this cycle so there is still greenery and intack buildings there. This also probably needs to assume that the Cylon civil war has also reached back to the colonies too.
Flash forward to Earth now and we find exactly the same thing. A slightly irradiated planet with no humans and Cylon bones all over it.
The Earth they have found is what Caprica will become over time as an almost lifeless shell. Just as Caprica became what Earth is now.
Cycle? -
But I could have sworn when Starbuck came back they proved that she was human and not a cylon. Clearly she isn't the same Starbuck that exploded but she is definitely a physical human being. Now who or what she really is another issue entirely. I just hope they have some rational explanation cause that was trippy.
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