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DOLLHOUSE Mastermind Whedon: Fox Now Has ‘Different Expectation’ For Numbers In Network's Friday Death Slot!!
I am – Hercules!!
Scifiwire.com has an interview with Joss Whedon that offers some encouragement for fans disheartened by Fox’s consigning the writer-director’s new sci-fi series “Dollhouse” to the network’s Friday Night Death Slot -- the same Friday Night Death Slot in which Whedon’s last Fox series, “Firefly,” met a speedy demise:
Q. How do you feel about the timeslot?
Whedon: You know, I feel fine about it. I know that it has a bad reputation. But so do the executives who built the sort of Terminator/Dollhouse entity, and they've been very up-front about a different expectation about audience numbers and slow growth. I think that they get—in a way that they really didn't back in the days of Firefly—that genre is ... something where a small group embraces it, and then it bleeds out.
“Dollhouse’s” Friday-night lead in will be the low-rated sci-fi hour “Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles,” which stars “Firefly” alumna Summer Glau.
While a newer, hungrier Fox Network successfully launched “The X-Files” on Friday nights in 1993, more than a dozen short-lived "Fox Friday" sci-fi shows were subseqently cancelled in short order. Among the Friday Death Slot departed:
The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. (1993)
MANTIS (1994)
Strange Luck (1995)
VR.5 (1995)
Sliders (1996)
Millennium (1996)
The Visitor (1997)
Harsh Realm (1999)
Freakylinks (2000)
Dark Angel (2000)
The Lone Gunmen (2001)
John Doe (2003)
Firefly (2003)
Whedon’s scifiwire interview also reveals, among many other things, that the 10th episode of “Dollhouse” is shooting now, and that the season’s final three episodes – which will be shot simultaneously – will be written by ace Mutant Enemy vets Jane Espenson (“Buffy The Vampire Slayer,” “Battlestar Galactica”), Tim Minear (“Angel,” “Wonderfalls”) and Whedon himself.
Read all of scifiwire’s interview with Whedon here.
“Dollhouse” premieres Feb. 13.
"I love love love DR. HORRIBLE’S SING-ALONG BLOG as much or more than just about anything I’ve seen this year." -- Harry Knowles
Season Eight: Volume Four!!
Whedon: You know, I feel fine about it. I know that it has a bad reputation. But so do the executives who built the sort of Terminator/Dollhouse entity, and they've been very up-front about a different expectation about audience numbers and slow growth. I think that they get—in a way that they really didn't back in the days of Firefly—that genre is ... something where a small group embraces it, and then it bleeds out.
"I love love love DR. HORRIBLE’S SING-ALONG BLOG as much or more than just about anything I’ve seen this year." -- Harry Knowles
Season Eight: Volume Four!!
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MY WORK HERE AT AICN IS COMPLETE AT LAST
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ELECTRIC JONES LIVESSSSSSS
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People always seem to crap on it because it has low ratings - as if that has to do with quality.
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Maybe this won't get the "Drive" treatment after all.
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SLIDERS premiered back in 1995, and was cancelled for the last time by FOX in 1997, before getting picked up by Sci-Fi.
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I agree. This show is getting better and better.
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It's already completed more episodes. On the subject of Drive, they should have let them complete the number of episodes they needed to finish the first race so they could at least have a limited series with an ending.
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and then on scifi for another two, so I'm not sure if that one really counts as a victim of the "Death Slot".
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Screw Fox
Screw Whedon on Fox
I wasn't interested int he premise of DollHouse originally. I am REALLYT not interested after the screwing Fox gave to FireFly.
Whedon shouldn't bother to work with those people ... OR ... he should take their money, do a half-assed job, and just wait for this to be shitcanned in 3 weeks.
Just use this to pay the bills while you secretly work on something that has real potential. -
Nothing. So why is it on AICN, the new home of round the clock Rourke coverage? This just in: Mickey Rourke took a shit. More news in a few hours...
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Has got to be 5 series long to be successful and with 20+ episodes per series. Maybe some concepts are better as a single series. Or that there could be fewer episodes. Anyway.
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Fuck you, Father Time. (Oh and thanks for reminding me about Strange Luck and MANTIS)
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She seems like if I spent a little time around her, I wouldn't be thinking about anything but how incredibly sensual she is, with all the touching and giggling she does. Then, I think after about 20 minutes or so of that, it'd start to get a little uncomfortable. I'd be all like, Lisa... do people call you that? Okay, Eliza... whatever... look, I like you, but could you just... you know... turn in down just tad? She wouldn't, and in fact would probably be a little tee'd off at the suggestion, and go start groping all over someone else. I'd be more relieved than hurt, I think.
So, how 'bout that UT Fiesta Bowl win, huh?! -
Yep.
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Jan 08, 2009 2:01:52 AM CST
DAMN! Fox's Should JUST schedule all the fri shit they canceled
by brians life
Seriously.
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Am I going to have to kick George Michael's ass to get him to do the movie?
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I swear that Whedon quote is almost verbatim whayt the folks behind the live action Tick show said when Fox put it on against Survivor. "Oh, they know the ratings will be lower, they're happy to let it start slow and build and... what? We're cancelled. Oh." Truth be told I don't think Whedon truly believes what he's saying. But you gotta pimp and be a cheerleader for your show as much as you can. Hoping for the best but expecting the worst.
And, by the way, the Friday night death slot predates Fox. Growing up in the 80s any time a network moved a show I liked to Friday, I knew it was over. -
A lot of those shows were very decent, it was a shame to see them cut out. But a lot of the viewership is probably doing something on a Friday night at 8pm, so...what can you really expect?
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Jan 08, 2009 2:26:04 AM CST
I Can't Wait To See It. I'm Whedon's Biggest Fan And Critic!!!
by media messiah
I think he may have turned things around, maybe, in respect to Dollhouse? He has some very good, if not briilliant ideas, and I think this show would have been better served on Showtime or some other unrated premium cable channel. Joss wanted to get dark with this series but, I know that Rupert Murdoch and family have issues with certain themes...including sexual ones, and that may have undermined Whedon's ultimate vision--plus the folks on cable, don't care about ratings very much, compared to broadcast TV.As for Joss claiming that he did not know that Fox wanted a fast paced action series...he's not being candid? Certainly, Fox wanted a straight forward action series, but one with Whedon's touch for snappy dialogue and out of left-field sucker punch plot twists in terms of story arcs...and he, Whedon, had a big chance to give them what they wanted, but instead, he went rogue on them...and got in trouble, just like with Firefly??? He failed to learn his lesson...and that is: "Sometimes you must lure in the big wigs by giving them what they want up front, and then go rogue later, when they aren't looking, or after you have won their full confidence." Joss forgot about that, I guess thinking he had a pass this time, and that wasn't the case--his fault for being too cryptic with the way he has stylized the show, and, he went easy on Eliza who was dating Seth McFarlane, Fox' new 100 million dollar boy. I think Joss didn't want to piss anybody off, and let Eliza show up to the set without investing too much in her acting. She seemed lazy in the pilot, and unsure of herself from the clips that I have seen?As you may know, I pointed out the problems inherent in Dollhouse from day one, earning me prompt insults from the Legions Of Yes Men and The Stepford Wives at Whedonesque.com, and even some guy, a moderator at the site, calling himself Dr. Horrible, cyber stalking me several times-- but it appears some Fox execs were reading what I said and agreed. You can't even explain the show's concept to people in a sentence or two...no, it would take you several paragraphs, and you still might confuse the persons you are talking to, namely the media and the public? I now believe that Whedon fixed some of these problems, based upon his interviews, but man could this show have been so much better understood, if Whedon got rid of the: "They turn into 5 year old personalities between missions stuff."??? Like, who can relate to that, as an adult??? Between missions, Echo should have been a fully functional college girl with a life typical of any average college girl...and a family--but, unknown to her, she is a programmed agent being directed by a secret agency. Getting her memory back, she begins to secretly investigate the agency that employs her, while pretending to still be unaware of what is happening to her--this, in order to find out just what their true intentions are. Now that would have been easy to explain to the audience...and potentially, a great series, instead, Joss got a bit too labrynthine here...and it may cost him, big time.
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Can't help but notice a definite sci-fi theme running through all those Death Slot Friday shows... Are Fox assuming there's a certain kind of person who's sitting at home on Friday nights...?
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... a Disney classic?
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It was a blockbuster!!!
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Fucking twit. At this point, when Fox inevitably assrapes Whedon, he'll fucking deserve it. Battered-wife syndrome indeed.
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should do swell there.
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Sliders started with Nazis and ended with Nazis
Therefore Dollhouse should start with Nazis and should get at least 2+ seasons
I think this says something about Fox -
and in the bottom 10 in the ratings, until FOX gave it a post Super Bowl slot, then moved it to Sundays where it went into the top 10.
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Also, the concept of the show is easy to describe in a couple of sentences. Hell, the article that's linked does it in one.
Not that I'm arguing for the show's viability... I'm just amused that you think the concept can't be easily summarized in your rather lengthy, rambly post. ;)
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Go back and watch how well they did season one and then tell me season two was great.
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And Fox was a very different network when it was on the air. From what I've heard of the premise and the cast, I'll be surprised if Dollhouse lasts more than six episodes.
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Jan 08, 2009 4:11:25 AM CST
Sliders, Millennium & Dark Angel were each on for 2+ years
by margot_tenenbaum
and the X-Files never really recovered, quality-wise, from being moved from Friday to Sunday during its fourth season. If your show is good, it will survive the so-called death slot. I mean... FreakyLinks? VR5? Come on.
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this show is gonna be DOA. Too many things have already gone wrong. What actually airs will of course be hailed as brilliant by the most vocal of Whedonites, and then lamented 'til the end of eternity.
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...having Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles as a lead in is promising. As its been stellar this season, and with better production excecution than some of its bigger bugeted Hollywood films. All I can hope is that 1.) DVR and Tivo customers count in the ratings. How do they know wheather I'm watching it live? 2.) Terminator watchers follow its move and continue to watch for Dollhouse or 3.) Tell people going out that night to turn their cable boxes to fox for the evening and hope that gives it enough numbers.
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If you think it is so easy to fully describe the show, Dollhouse, in a professional manner, please, give us two sentences, if you can???
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Word - people forget that Buffy and Angel didn't really start clicking till S2. Before that, they were good but standard fare... it was with S2 that they came into their own. Firefly clicked from the get go and got screwed.
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I don't think Herc has ever mentioned him before...
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The death slot can go all the way back to 1968-69 when STAR TREK's third season was consigned their by NBC with the express intent of killing the show off.
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His dealings with Fox are like he's in a bad relationship. No matter how badly they treat his shows he finds excuses for their behaviour and says "I'm fine about it". Fox are showing it on Fridays because they have low expectations ratings-wise. That should tell you all you need to know about how much faith they have in Dollhouse. Also, I'm not sure if any show which had two full seasons or more should be on the death list (unless it was moved to Fridays in order to kill it off).
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Well Sliders isnt really part of that "curse" since its been on numerous nights over its 4/5yrs on the air. sure it ended its run on fridays but by that point the show was already dying. As for the 5 series comment someone said. Its not that they feel they HAVE to do it, its because once a show hits 100 episodes it can go into syndication which means more money for the studio/production company. And most shows hit 100 in the 5th season. Of course i have noticed these last few years that shows that are barely into a 3rd season already start airing in syndication, so maybe rules changed.
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Does anyone actually still watch a programme when it is scheduled anymore anyway? Unless it is live sport or news then there is nothing I watch at the scheduled time!
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sriously fox, you could get everyone back, and its clear theres a big fan base...why not bring it back...and its sci fi, you could bring back a clone of wash or work something out to include alan tudyck into the series again
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may be rabid and enthusiastic, but it's not large enough to justify bringing the show back.
Face it. Serenity only did 25 million USD domestic. I'm sure many of those were multiple viewers from the rabid but small, fan base. -
I mean, who stays in and watches Friday shows? Fucking fuck Fox... Terminator and Dollhouse have so much potential and they pull this shit... Fox is fucking up on all fronts: see Watchmen.
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Angel and Buffy were on start up networks at the time they were introduced, and there were no other real options for those start up nets. Having American Idol, The Simpsons, The Family Guy, the NFL and Baseball, has made Fox fat with profits, so they are less forgiving when it comes to the ratings, they want up front hits, immediately, and if they don't get them, they will simply cancel a show--and with someone like Whedon, if they don't get it, they will use his name to get fans to buy the eventual Dollhouse DVD set...and the show's production will justify itself, even in cancellation, as Fox will make their money back and go into profit, thanks to the DVD.The problem with Whedon is that he has become very cryptic of late with the concepts of his shows, Firefly and Dollhouse...my examples, although the concepts of Buffy and Angel were easily understood, and he has never been good at coming up with titles for his shows. Joss' highly cryptic concepts in terms of hiding story arcs, i.e., with Firefly and now Dollhouse, can leave most audiences puzzled, audiences whom Whedon seems to tell: "Trust me, come along for the ride...and I'll deliver a good twist in the end". The problem with Firefly, as was the initial problem with his new series, is we had to wait until Serenity to find out what the big twist was...and just how big it was, and we still don't know anything about Book, a character who they shouldn't have killed off in the movie? He is the one character they should have kept alive and revealed that he is an Operative Commander who faced down Mal and Zoe at the Battle of Serenity and wiped out most of the Brown Coats. It is Book who should have shown up to confront Mal in the last scene, not Ejoifer (The Operative). Mal should have said to Book, if I see you again, I'll kill you, and Book should have smiled and uttered the lines that were given to the Operative. Book then walking off, should have been immediately followed by the Operative, someone, whom he personally trained. Now, as I have said before, in another post, Serenity...yet another bad Whedon title BTW, should have been the pilot script used to set up the show Firefly...unfortunately, Joss didn't conceive things that way...and so, the show didn't have much weight in either of its two pilots, as we didn't have a foe to hate or love, or a reason why we should care...we just knew that Mal and Zoe were on the losing side of a war, and now they are rogues running contaband and acting as mercenaries because they dig freedom to just be as they want to be. Well, all I am sayng is...most audiences are impatient, and when you are on a main network, you had better deliver your best, in terms of easily explaining and overselling your concept, up-front, and fast...because this is now a web surfing and channel surfing society, and people have many distractions--if you don't get most people right away with your concept, you are done. Dollhouse is has a bad title, just like Serenity and Firefly. And, although, in terms of Dollhouse, its a nice name for the secret facility inside of the show, it however, means nothing to audiences. Fox or Whedon should have named the series something similar to the title of the comic book, Beautiful Killer...as a name like that, instantly tells you what you can expect from the concept. Serenity, Firefly, and Angel, really tell you nothing to inform you about those series and what they are about...and although Buffy did inform you, most thought the title spoke to the quality of the show, failing to understand that the title was/is...meant to be sarcastic, and speaks to the subversive/satirical nature of the show.All I'm saying to Whedon is, in terms of series and movie titles, and story and concept introductions, stop going for the under-sell just because its cool, and start going for the hard-sell, as...most of the time, it works, and produces big success!!! Save the cool parts for your big sidewinding plot twists and your famous sucker punch dialogue.
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excellent point about leading with your biggest guns. A good example is LOST, which even though it has gotten much more convoluted and divergent from its pre-supposed "plane crash survivors on an island" opening premise, initially delivered such an emphatically powerful pilot episode that millions are still watching four years later, even as they whine about the episodes each week on this site. I defy anyone to watch the first 15 minutes of that pilot and not be hooked.
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it's like listening to one of those domestic violence victims, "he promised he won't do it again, it's not his fault, he just gets angry! it my fault, I should have listened! I'll do better this time!". Of course they can let terminator start slow, it's fucking terminator, they have a 200 millon dollar movie coming, they can write off the show as a 40 minute commercial (with 20 minutes of paid ads to offset its cost). Whedon and Espenson should just stick to youtube videos, that's what they're good at (Faces of the Enemy was kinda crap, but Dr. Horrible was good. I guess that's he's the boss).
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Jan 08, 2009 7:42:34 AM CST
I appreciate that Whedon wants to downplay expectations...
by mockingbird girl
... but the crappy scene they released last month already accomplished that quite nicely. I'm always willing to give Joss a chance, but my God, does this look awful.
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i don't know if it's a curse, i mean, let's look at the list again....The Adventures of Brisco County Jr. (1993)
MANTIS (1994)
Strange Luck (1995)
VR.5 (1995)
Sliders (1996)
Millennium (1996)
The Visitor (1997)
Harsh Realm (1999)
Freakylinks (2000)
Dark Angel (2000)
The Lone Gunmen (2001)
John Doe (2003)
Firefly (2003)
i mean, with the exception of brisco county jr (ahead of it's time), Millenium (which pretty much GAVE itself a cancellation date once nothing happened in 2000), and firefly which was again, ahead of it's time, THE REST SUCKED. well, sliders ended up with a nice run on sci-fi, so that survived...but the rest sucked. freakylinks? did anyone expect anything named freakylinks to survive? MANTIS? Vr.5? the Visitor? never even heard of them.i think the problem lies not in friday night being a death slot...it's obviously fox's main 'sci-fi' slot...and from there it's just a matter of what kind of sci-fi the public is into at the moment. -
i think dollhouse isn't a very fresh premise...and what we know it to be now (a one girl show, ala dark angel) is already a little different than what whedon promised early on (a team of chicks). not to mention, the lead girl is pure CW/FOX cancellation fodder. she's been in how many failed shows now? whedon needs to get over his darked haired, mysterious tough girl fetish as well as the 'cool undersell' becasue both are wearing thin. everything doesn't have to be a mystery-
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Jan 08, 2009 8:01:07 AM CST
Time Shifting your TV viewing via DVR counts... To an extent.
by mr. profit
Live plus same day counts. So if you DVR something at 8 and watch at 10, if counts. But execs and advertisers don't care for shows that are watched days later. For starters, viewers fast forward through commercials. Advertisers are less likely to want to spend 4 million on a season deal to air on a low rated/ high DVR'd show where the audience is more likely to ignore their product. I see it happen all the time. Buyers are real picky about where their commercials air and on what shows. That's why the dreck on CBS has less problems in a scatter market because their shows have high ratings shares of live viewers. This show is doomed (as is Terminator). Dushku is no Gellar. And it's funny when the Whedonites try to retcon the shows heyday and say how Gellar wasn't the reason they watched, and how Dushku was better. All because Gellar left the show after working nonstop for 7 seasons. It's funny. But Gellar was the reason many watched. And if this show featured her instead, it would have went differently. Dushku just doesn't have what it takes to anchor a show solo. She is just a good sidekick.
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no one
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...and fast forward through the commercials, that the products are worked into the shows. this really started with FRIENDS ever so long ago and has gotten worse every year, especially with FOX and CBS's ratings giants. thanks god at least LOST only has dharma products, and you will never see anyone drink a coke....although they have crammed cell phones down our throats at every turn.
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look at her track record. maybe it's not her fault but now she carries the smell with her. when a show brings her in, it's on it's way out. when she has her own show, it's cancelled. she should just cut her losses and become a VIVID girl.
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no matter how rabid the fan base, once T4:SALVATION comes out, don't expect the show to last much longer. the movie will become canon again, and the show will have to adjust, or people will want to see more endoskeletons, etc- which the show does not have the budget to provide.
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I'm resigned to it happening, but even so I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts.
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lasted for years in a Friday timeslot. In the 90s, Fox wasn't much more popular than The CW is now at least in relative terms (Fox didn't have to compete with hundreds of original series on basic cable). They wouldn't give up on shows like they do now. X-Files may not have made a full season if a new series today rather than the mid-90s.
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Brisco County ran a full season. Strange Luck ran 17 episodes. Much as I liked best shows, we're not talking a Tick, Wonderfalls, or even Firefly-like "Hey, presto, they're here and gone." They got put on, Fox gave them a decent run, they didn't make it.
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Episodes 4-13 on DVD. Eventually.
The worst part of working television might be having to say nice things about the people who are screwing you. -
Episodes 4-13 on DVD. Eventually.
The worst part of working television might be having to say nice things about the people who are screwing you. -
than any other night? Reminds me of that Dilbert joke where the boss thinks the employees are pulling a fast-one when he hears 40% of sick days are taken on either Mondays or Fridays.
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Everything is publicity department crap.
As for Eliza, twenty minutes with her would be just enough for me to do what is necessary.
Come to me, Eliza. Come. -
John in therapy: Borrrrrrrrrring!
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show for fox and the show got greenlighted and went in to production. Would fox have the temerity to cancel it. Knowing how Bad tempered Cameron can be. Fox has been the home of Cameron since he started making films. he hasnt done much tv work any work since dark angel or titantic. except that documentary about the bones of jesus christ. so called bones of christ. are maybe they werent. Cameron Shut the fuck pretty quick after that.
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Jackasses
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It would do so much better than the Sarah Connor Chronicles.
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Can't believe that Brian Austin Green is the reason I actually like a show as much as I do. Guy is really playing it like its his last hope in life which I really respect. Plus chick from RaZor is turbo hot and can play mean bitch really well. The girl that looks like Claire from Lost kinda confuses me but overall, great show, although Sarah herself needs to grow some frakin balls.
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The stars have moved on, and have no interest in going back to it.
Plus, rabid fan base aside, there's not much of an audience for them.
Hell, Stargate ran for 10 seasons, and they can't even get their full cast back for a movie. -
I just saw all the episodes again on Hulu.com
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why'd they have to kill HIM? i thought maybe they killed him off because he was going on to bigger things but he hasn't so far. he brings something to everything he is in. he made 28 days watchable, and what was the movie where he was in 'pirate' mode the whole time?with his wild hair and sense of humor i always thought he'd make a good animated-series-style live action Joker....before nolan went and reinvented the joker that is.
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Like geeks and kids aren;t gonna munch down frosted flakes watching kick ass scifi. Wasn't MST3K on sat mornings on Scifi?
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Watch it again. It was better acted and had a deeper plot than your memory gives it.
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Whedon has already left "Dollhouse" and been replaced by Marti Noxon. All episodes will have serious lesbian undertones, with lesbian musicians making appearances at the local bar that the cast hangs out at. Also, every male character has become a complete douchebag who frequently cheats on his women and sometimes even attempts to rape his girlfriend out of the blue for no reason other than, apparently, that's just what guys do. Also, the main character will use the word "Violated" at least six times per episode. And Eliza Dushku has been replaced by an annoying character named "Kennedy" that no one likes yet will get constant screen time. And the show's name will no longer be "Dollhouse" but, instead, "Noxon's College Years". And the theme will now be that beign a girl is, you know, hard and stuff. ENJOY!
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in six weeks, if not sooner.
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Firefly and brisco county jr. The latter was actually not that great but bruce plus some zany western fun made it worthwile. Hell even bruce said it was just for the money but later on he saw how much people liked the show. He watched it and realized he shoudl have put more into the show because it was indeed pretty darn good at times.
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"Dollhouse" has been dropped by Fox. The first season finale will find Dushku's character killed off. She will then be resurrected for the second season on The CW, where the character will somehow become a single mom to her little sister, while being constantly miserable and endlessly bitching about how life sucks and "Something BAD is coming". It will then take 20 episodes to get to that "BAD" thing, which will turn out to be not much different than the random villain of the week, except that main characters will be randomly killed off arbitrarily. Along the way, she will learn that men are typically liars, the death of a lover can be easily overcome by replacing her with a completely different one of the same sex, and that being a girl is, you know, hard and stuff. ENJOY!
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zom-bot, Millennium didn't make it to the year 2000, unless you count the crappy X-Files tie-in episode, which had little to do with the Millennium's plot and more to do with Mulder and Scully locking lips. Oh, and VR.5 was fun. Hated the cliffhanger ending though.
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With Erkel and Step by Step? We gotta bring shows like that back.
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An FBI agent tries to crack a mysterious and well-funded organization that takes attractive young men and women, wipes their brains, and reprograms them to fulfill a variety of a specific functions.
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Jan 08, 2009 1:18:54 PM CST
If Friday Night is a Dead Zone, Does Joss have Verizon?
by frakthetoasters
Let's hope he does. Fox should not be dismissing Whedon's work, should not be sending talentless suits to offer opinions and notes on what he is doing, changing anything! Let Joss be Joss!
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Like in I robot, only wash shaped, eh can then return, reaching I know, though sometimes I wonder if Mal is meant to be a Cyborg given the beatings he takes.
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I'm just paranoid of falling in love with this project and then having to give it up like happened with Firefly.
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great eyes she had.
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Jan 08, 2009 1:32:21 PM CST
THIS JUST IN!! "DOLLHOUSE" TO BE CONTINUED IN COMIC BOOK SERIES
by therevenge
The CW has cancelled "Dollhouse", and will not run past it's second season, which will have an abiguous ending, leaving questions as to who lives and who dies. Whedon has stated that a comic book series will follow, which fans will pretentiously dub "Season Three". The comic book series is expected to get incredible buzz, followed by a story that most fans will find "okie doke" after the initial excitement has worn off. Whedon said he will also be working on the long-talked-about "Wonder Woman" project that no one has ever given a shit about and yet keeps talking about anyway. Sixteen different Hollywood actresses are already being photoshopped somewhere and rumored to be attached to star.
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Also, MillenniuM shoulda gotten that fourth and final season. I refuse to believe Peter Watts offed himself. Bullshit.
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...really glad Whedon is a fan of it.
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I found myself so incredibly bored with the new season. It's as if the showrunners forgot that it's pretty much the only action show in town. I need more Terminators smashing shit. Call me simple. But I need breaks from the meticulously plotted shows I watch like Lost and Damages. Last season the show was good, then became pretty good, then by the end of the season it was total Must See TV. This season was just OK. With great shit thrown into it on occassion like Cameron's origin episode. Also I never ever watched a full episode of Firefly, but I do love Summer Glau. Too bad she couldn't be in the new film. Bottom Line, Terminator needs a "Phase Two" like episode that shakes the shit up when it returns soon or else it's toast.
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http://tinyurl.com/7yrvjb
follow the above link to see pics of Eliza topless in her almost direct to DVD movie "The Alphabet Killer" -
There are probably 100 times the amount of fans now then there were when that movie came out. Last year the movie went into the black. The damn thing is on its 3rd or 4th different release already. There are a shitton of firefly fans. But I don't think the show needs to come back to tv , it still wouldn't be a huge ratings hit. It would be nice to get a miniseries now and again though on Sci Fi...im sure it would do well.
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The season series dvd's have been in the amazon top 10 list on and off for a long long time..there are a lots of fans now , way more then when that movie was released.
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Anyone else picturing Joss Whedon sitting in an emergency room with a black eye and a cast on one arm, crying "But Fox loves me!!!"?
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I thought writers are supposed to progress from their last creations, not Sorta-Buffy 2.0.
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Just to jumpstart their movie franchise.
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I am giving it seven at most
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It's in some new movie called "The Alphabet" or something like that. I found pictures on "Upcoming Nude Scenes." Type that into google and it's the first link. Yep. That's right. That's the kind of service I provide. That's the REAL cool news here.
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Fox has an awful track record for not allowing new shows to find an audience. If they would have been more patience with Firefly and let it find an audience, it would have been a successful sci-fi show. Anyway, how can we expect decent programming that pushes the limit when "Are You Smarter than a 5th Grader" is regular on the list of top 20 network shows? I'm American and I have to really wonder if most of America *is* smarter than a 5th grader.
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and PLENTY of chances to win a bigger audience. Dark Angel and Sliders actually got worse and lost me as a viewer. Didn't care about Millenium, I wasn't on the X-Files wagon train and it just looked like more of that. Some of the other shows you mention though did indeed die too quickly. I'll hope for a miracle. I like Terminator now, so this could be a great night of TV for me.
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...and you, a professional writer, know it. But hey, I can't do any better because the show's concept has been made overly complicated by Whedon...a guy I love, but...even the execs at Fox in the marketing department, are having serious problems trying to describe the show according to reports...and the same is true of Joss and Eliza; have you seen them in interviews...there is always a pregnant pause, before rather lengthy explanations that still leave you puzzled???
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Excuse me for a moment.
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And you are right, they put some serious money and memorable visuals into the Lost pilot, to the point that you were almost compelled to watch the opening episode...and the initial 6 weeks, as well as the entire first season. It was audacious, and informed you immediately that, "Hey, these people are Lost." You knew what the concept was instantly...no confusion. They knew what the sudience was that they were looking for, that of Survivor and even Tom Hank's film on a similar subject, and they got that audience. Joss doesn't seem to know what audience it is that he is aiming for, and if you are unsure, or hell, even if you do know your demo, you should always go for the hard-sell and see where the chips fall. In the end, you will probably be better off than you would be, otherwise.
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Sideboob moment of the week!
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If it's any good at all I bet it will survive for a couple of seasons. Joss ought to go do something on a pay channel or for a netlet if this blows up on him.
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that go together nicely.
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A lot of the shows on that list were purchased on the supposition that the X-FILES audience would show up for them, and it's not Fox' fault that they didn't.
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all this bullshit about 'overly complicated' is getting tiresome. Seems pretty straightforward to me. Maybe overly complicated for those with the attention span of a five year old. You sound like a freakin' ad executive who wishes he was a tv writer, MediaMessiah. Leave the writing to the professionals. and to zombot, when did Whedon ever 'promise' anything about a 'team of chicks'? I don't ever recall reading anything about that, and besides, he already did that in season 7 of Buffy. Can't wait for this show. I wish we'd stop hearing about and bitching about it and just see it.
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than most (and can't say any/all) of the X-Files. Fox, in its usual asshole brain-dead decision-making, decided only one of the two, BOTH low-rated shows would get a shot to survive and went with X-Files, killing Brisco, the best, the first sci-fi-tinged western since the Wild Wild West and the most watchable one since WWW, too. Good luck to Joss, hope the show takes off.
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You can't explain this show in two sentences...no one can. I am not against Joss, I am his biggest fan, and I think ultimately, my criticisms have helped the show...because if the pilot had remained as it was originally described, Whedon would have gotten great ratings for one episode, then...a steep ratings drop. Why??? Because most audiences are not smart and will give up fast if they don't understand a concept at first viewing. Whedon's audience is a smart audience, about the smartest I have ever seen, but to survive, and get that big mega hit that Whedon wants, and needs, he must think of how to lure the mainstream audience to his series--and he can have both. Lure them to a fast paced and sexy action show, and hit them with smart dialogue and smart plots while they are there. Not a bait and switch, but a bait and deliver something extra.So you promised junk food, well, make sure the incredients are organic and full of vitamins, what the people don't know, won't hurt them. If they think the show is junk food, and bad for them, and that is what they want, let them think that. It's like reverse psychology, you don't tell little kids that you have given them something that is sugar free and is good for them...no, if they think they are indulging in the big no, no...the kids want it more. If you tell them, wait, this is good for you and its sugar free, then suddenly, they don't want it. Don't believe me, try it yourself? Back to mainstream audiences. They, the idiots, will come for the junk food, not knowing they are being fed 5 star gourmet fine dinning, and your will stand to win acolades from the smart thinkers, and those, the mainstream audience, just tuning in for explosions, car chases, sex, and gunfire.To attract the large audiences, you have to communicate with them via a shorthand. Let them know what your show or movie is, in a title, like Star Wars, Star Trek, The Godfather, The Fast & The Furious, Superman...you know what you are getting, just make sure that the concept is easily explained...and you will have your best chance at winning that big success that you are looking for.Look, there is no way that JJ Abrams is as talented as Joss Whedon...but the difference is that Abrams always went for the hard-sell and won big time, with 3 series and now films, where Whedon went for the soft-sell and was burned more times than I can count. I am just trying to suggest how he can avoid being burned again...and us loyal Whedon fans, being burned with him.
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Jan 09, 2009 1:47:27 AM CST
Amended: Okay, Oisin5199...Explain The Show In 2 Sentences
by media messiah
You can't explain this show in two sentences...no one can. I am not against Joss, I am his biggest fan, and I think ultimately, my criticisms have helped the show...because if the pilot had remained as it was originally described, Whedon would have gotten great ratings for one episode, then...a steep ratings drop. Why??? Because most audiences are not smart and will give up fast if they don't understand a concept at first viewing. Whedon's audience is a smart audience, about the smartest I have ever seen, but to survive, and get that big mega hit that Whedon wants, and needs, he must think of how to lure the mainstream audience to his series--and he can have both. Lure them to a fast paced and sexy action show, and hit them with smart dialogue and smart plots while they are there. Not a bait and switch, but a bait and deliver something extra.
So you promised junk food, well, make sure the incredients are organic and full of vitamins, what the people don't know, won't hurt them. If they think the show is junk food, and bad for them, and that is what they want, let them think that. It's like reverse psychology, you don't tell little kids that you have given them something that is sugar free and is good for them...no, if they think they are indulging in the big no, no...the kids want it more. If you tell them, wait, this is good for you and its sugar free, then suddenly, they don't want it. Don't believe me, try it yourself? Back to mainstream audiences. They, the idiots, will come for the junk food, not knowing they are being fed 5 star gourmet fine dinning, and you will stand to win accolades from the smart thinkers, and those, the mainstream audience, just tuning in for explosions, car chases, sex, and gunfire.
To attract the large audiences, you have to communicate with them via a shorthand. Let them know what your show or movie is, in a title, like Star Wars, Star Trek, The Godfather, The Fast & The Furious, Superman...you know what you are getting, just make sure that the concept is easily explained...and you will have your best chance at winning that big success that you are looking for.
Look, there is no way that JJ Abrams is as talented as Joss Whedon...but the difference is that Abrams always went for the hard-sell and won big time, with 3 series and now films, where Whedon went for the soft-sell and was burned more times than I can count. I am just trying to suggest how he can avoid being burned again...and us loyal Whedon fans, being burned with him. -
I believe Fox will fuck this one too.
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REALLY think there's any chance in hell this will get to season two? And why would Whedon go back to a network that has already screwed him over so royally once? Watch The Wire, dude -- you can't change institutions from within.
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XFiles hit the big time in its second season. It didn't move to Sunday until the fourth season, and by then, the first movie was already being planned. As for this, I'll pass. I like a lot of Whedon's stuff, but he's almost as impressed with himself as M Night, and like M Night, it shows in the work.
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NOT canceled in short order. In the interest of accuracy.
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i actually read it here, in the teaser talkback when there where just whispers about the show. i can't give you a date or anything, but i don't read up on this stuff many other places. it's how it was described. dushku was going to be the focus, but that there where going to be other girls, like 'one of each type' (race,etc) that were used for these missions. there was no mention of 'guy dolls'.
maybe the show still sticks vaguely to that initial statement, but it seems to be more dushku-centric than originally mentioned. -
- someone corrected me and they were right. i knew they had a speacial or x-files cross over then though and i guess that's what threw me. now i do remember that i was pissed it didn't make it to 2000, but if it had, it would have basically had to end around then. i'd watch lance henriksen in a fucking nickelodeon series if he was in one.oh and how odd is it that Lone Gunmen's PILOT episode involved remotely crashing a plane into the twin towers years before it (may) have happened. and now you can't find that episode anywhere.
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I think we can say without undue fear of equivocation that the event in question is not actually in question.
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Why isn't Brimstone (1998) on the list? But as "bad" as Fox is, though, you have to keep in mind that if it wasn't for them, most of the shows on the dead zone list above would never have existed. Say what you will about Fox, but at least they gave those shows a chance. It's not like networks were lining up to air Brisco County or Strange Luck or Brimstone. Fox took one risk by just airing the shows in the first place during a pre-X-Files period when the genre was faltering on TV. Taking another risk by keeping the shows on when the numbers didn't justify it would be asking too much. I'd rather have 17 episodes of Strange Luck or 13 of Brimstone, then 0 episodes because it was left up to the other networks.
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That has not aired yet. Thanks for the laugh!!
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the plot wasn't just about crashing a plane into one of the WTC towers, but about a Gov't conspiracy to crash an airplane into one of the WTC towers in order to start a war. Is that episode not on the DVD set? Isn't calling it "The Complete Series" then a bit misleading?
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What sort of paranoid trash are you trying to suggest?
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I loved that show. I wish the dvd wasn't cut and edited with new music.
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I figured if one were looking for it, the best, and first, place to look would be on the show's DVD set. I thought that if it wasn't on there, calling the DVD "The Complete Series" was inaccurate. But it is, so all is moot.
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Specifically, zom-bot said, "oh and how odd is it that Lone Gunmen's PILOT episode involved remotely crashing a plane into the twin towers years before it (may) have happened. and now you can't find that episode anywhere." Yes, the first episode of Lone Gunmen is on the Complete DVD set.
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Or even remembers it? DB Sweeney i think. As I recall, right before it got the axe, they were setting it up for a crossover with the X-Files. He dropped Mulder's name to someone in one of the last episodes...
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Fastlane started life on Wednesday nights. It may have died on Fridays but it was a Wednesday show at first. PS I love Knight Rider... and Wonderfalls
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okay, media (false) messiah, either you come clean and tell us that you're some producer or something or shut the fuck up, because you sound like a completely self-absorbed ego-maniac who somehow thinks that fan letters to a studio mean something other than spam. I mean really, your posts are freakin' hilarious. I'm sure Joss should be thanking you. I don't need to describe a show in two sentences. I don't care. I'm not an ad executive. I know the basic premise, I know and like the lead (and some of the other actors), I know the creator, I know the writers. I'm sold. That's it. Here's a challenge for you. Write a post in 2 sentences or less. Or one that actually has some substance, instead of your self-important dribblings.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Thanks, media. I love to laugh out loud.
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Well, I liked it... and mentioned it above. Actually, it was Chance's brother Eric who dropped Mulder's name. Basically they redid a lot of it for John Doe a few years down the road.
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Isn't 'bleeds out' usually associated with death?? Pooir choice of words, Mr. Whedon!!
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happybunni: If my memory serves me right, I recall a certain essential cast member stating that they'd love to do them but that Fox wanted them all to work for next to nothing!! True? False? Who knows, but I lean towards the latter being the case.
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I was making fun of MM like last week...
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I made comments under another sign on name via other web sites which were linked to Whedonesque.com last summer about Dollhouse; within weeks, a Fox exec was quoted multiple times with opinions that strangely almost exactly matched my comments. Next; months later, the Fox marketing department was quoted as saying similar things while engaged in repeated battles with Fox' TV development division over Dollhouse. They had closed door battles about the show according to press reports...and Fox' top TV execs were shocked that the private debates, and infighting, leaked to the press.Again, all the issues centered around certain specific points I made in detail about problems with the show. So this was timely, and beyond coincidence, especially since I was roundly attacked by Whedonesque posters and a moderator, the latter of which, began cyber stalking me for weeks, for giving diverse opinions that didn't agree with the "Everything made by Joss Whedon is always great, and you can never question it--manifesto" forwarded by Whedonesque and its staffers.
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You're looney tunes. I mean it was one thing to try and sell a screenplay in talkback but this is just....
Do they have "coincidence" where you come from? Because I don't think you grasp what that word actually means... -
I think you made a mistake in your last post. You should edit it.
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Stop writing a novel on the talkback and go sue hiss ass....................or send someone to break his legs at the very least. That is some richard scary shit my friend.
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FOX = Lucy Van Pelt, holding a football
I hate that this is the first image that popped into my head. -
and now Joss is doing the same. And it's disappointing that he has to. The thing that frustrates me the most is that this wouldn't have happened if they had just left things alone. Start the show on Monday after 24. Let Joss have his mythology off from the start and let him do the show he pitched.
But no. Let's give him more notes on how the actors are dressed and how the veiwing audience needs more *BLAMMO* and less story because everyone knows that people turn into shows like Lost because everyone is so pretty and it has nothing to do with the actual story..*choking on my own rage at the stupidity*
The studio producers, in their utter disconnect from the demographic that they should be trying to go for, have brought this clusterfuck upon themselves. Blaming Whedon for this PR disaster is blaming the bus driver for the bridge being out. -
http://tinyurl.com/9ogevz
Really excellent read but I'm going to highlight a few points:
Joss went to work on Dollhouse, bringing Zack and Tancharoen along on staff. But returning to studio life was jolting. “I came back to Fox and all of a sudden got notes on everything. ‘Those are the socks you’re going to wear? Hmm, will teenage girls respond to those socks?’... I need to put out a drawing every week. That’s who I am. That doesn’t mean I don’t take enormous care with the work. It just means I’ve got to get it out there.”
“Dollhouse has had a troubled start, that’s not breaking news, and there was a time when I literally was like, I don’t think I can stomach this process anymore,” he admits. “That’s not a dig on Fox or the people here, because I’m dealing with a much better class of network people than I was. It really is just the process and all of the other stuff that keeps me from just making the show."
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After I made posts about Dollhouse, contrary to popular opinion on the site, the Whedonesque moderator, by the name of Dr. Horrible, would sign on and verbally attack me on other web sites that Whedonesque linked to. This happened several times, before it stopped. Just a lot of nasty comments aimed at me, for no reason other than the fact that I had a contrary opinion about a clip of the show. I reviewed that clip, and said that the actor from Galactica, a show that I have rarely seen, and I am not a big fan of, happened to make Eliza look like an amateur. Not his fault for upstaging her, she just didn't show up to emote. It appeared that she hadn't even studied the script and was acting after a cold reading? And BTW, I am not a fan of that Galactica actor, who is actually very good, but...I don't know, he just doesn't seem like star material, although you can tell he's a real pro? As for Eliza, her acting was terrible, and she didn't seem to fully grasp the role. I say this about her, and I am a fan of her's for her work on Buffy and Angel, where she seemed to be fully present and fully involved in the proceedings. I also stated my comments in an effort to improve the show, as I knew that they, Joss and crew, would be called on it, sooner or later...and I didn't want to see another Firefly fiasco, for other reasons, this time, issues over the inability to explain the concept of the show and Eliza's performance as well as a few problems I saw with the actual directing--Joss seemed to be afraid to direct Eliza and knock her for her bad acting, I suspect, it was because she is, or was, dating Seth McFarlene, Fox' newly crowned 100 million dollar man. At the time that I posted my original comments, no one at Whedonesque agreed with me, although two people hedged on my comments about Eliza, while most attacked me. I was in a vacuum, and the lone voice of criticism, at the time. Even when I was proven right, they were still mad...but that came several weeks later, after I commented, when reports that reshoots were scheduled to fix problems with the pilot. Subsequently, reports of the unnamed exec, who echoed my comments, popped-up online. Next, reports that the whole pilot was being retooled...and then a new pilot was scheduled, and would be shot. After that, the original pilot, the same one that I complained about, was completely scrapped and hidden??? Up until the time I first complained about the scene that I saw of the show, everything was all excellent press for the show. BTW, I don't want bad press for the program, I just saw problems for it, ahead of time, including issues with its premise, the latter of which, I posted on AICN.com and elsewhere. I voiced those problems so Whedon could fix the issues before they got out of hand.As for the moderator. It was just the attitude of "Hey, you should not be allowed to have an independent opinion, or thought, separate from ours, the hive mind."
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...will we finally get a Supernatural talkback?
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and I guess your name went to your head and now you have a persecution complex. My gods, I've never seen such a self-important jackass with delusions of grandeur on this site. I'm sure Fox scrapped the pilot because they read your completely informed opinion on some fan site. Pretty soon you're going to tell us that the commentary for Serenity was oddly reflecting your thoughts and Joss must have seen you post them somewhere. Go pick a flower, Narcissus. better yet, seek therapy. And didja ever think that you saw a clip completely out of context and that maybe you didn't have all the info about the scene, and have absolutely no basis for judgment of anyone's acting? And that maybe you should just shut up and wait for the damn show and stop deluding yourself that you have any power or influence in the world? Give it a rest. You expose your mental imbalance even more with every post.
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Call me all the names you want, but every one of my words have proven true when it comes to Dollhouse. I have been right on the money, and ahead of everyone else, on accurately critiquing the show...and Fox' marketing, and now their TV division, have moved in a timely fashion to address every one of those points, save for one, the series title. Coincidence??? Maybe, or maybe, Fox and Mutant Enemy have some thinking people who actually listen to smart suggestions every once and a while from outsiders who make sense? Don't be mad at me because you were obviously one of the hive mind "Don't worry be happy types" who are more than committed to seeing another Whedon show cancelled due to a martyr mentality...as you think it is cool and rather cute to feel like you are being persecuted by 'The Powers That Be' constantly. Without Whedon being made to suffer, you have no cause, hence you are perfectly willing to see him fry...and to let it happen, his metaphorical execution, over and over again...well, I am not...I like the guy too much for that. If allowed, he will be the next Spielberg, I am sure of it, but tht is not going to happen unless he gets a big break-out hit, and unless this show got a fix, it was headed for failure. Now, maybe, because of that fix, it has a better chance to be that success.You really don't want to see this show be a huge success, and neither do most of his fans, as that would make Whedon, theirs (the industry and the big media), and everybody else's (the fad driven public), not yours...this small niche group of fans who think Whedon is chic because he has broadened his base. You are perfectly content to make him the next Roger Corman, not the next Spielberg...and shame on you for that. You don't want to share him with the wider parts of the world, and that is selfish of you...all of you, to not want to see Joss Whedon grow and become the big industry mogul that he deserves to be.
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Jan 10, 2009 2:14:30 AM CST
Amended: No, It's Not All About Me, But It Sure Is Timely
by media messiah
Call me all the names you want, but every one of my words have proven true when it comes to Dollhouse. I have been right on the money, and ahead of everyone else, on accurately critiquing the show...and Fox' marketing, and now their TV division, have moved in a timely fashion to address every one of those points, save for one, the series title. Coincidence??? Maybe, or maybe, Fox and Mutant Enemy have some thinking people who actually listen to smart suggestions every once and a while from outsiders who make sense? Don't be mad at me because you were obviously one of the hive mind "Don't worry be happy types" who are more than committed to seeing another Whedon show cancelled due to a martyr mentality...as you think it is cool and rather cute to feel like you are being persecuted by 'The Powers That Be' constantly. Without Whedon being made to suffer, you have no cause, hence you are perfectly willing to see him fry...and to let it happen, his metaphorical execution, over and over again...well, I am not...I like the guy too much for that. If allowed, he will be the next Spielberg, I am sure of it, but that is not going to happen unless he gets a big break-out hit, and unless this show got a fix, it was headed for failure. Now, maybe, because of that fix, it has a better chance to be that success.
You really don't want to see this show be a huge success, and neither do most of his fans, as that would make Whedon, theirs (the industry and the big media), and everybody else's (the fad driven public), not yours...this small niche group of fans who think Whedon is chic because he has not broadened his fan base. You are perfectly content to make him the next Roger Corman, not the next Spielberg...and shame on you for that. You don't want to share him with the wider parts of the world, and that is selfish of you...all of you, to not want to see Joss Whedon grow and become the big industry mogul that he deserves to be. -
You may think it's beyond co-incidence, but it isn't.
The odds against it were not THAT high, and there's plenty of people who post on line.
Honestly though, you sound like the sort of person who could come to believe that David Letterman was sending you personal messages in his TV broadcasts. -
But considering that the show was only getting great notice at the time that I piped in, and no one, not even the Whedon haters, were analyzing the problems that I saw with the show, I'd say it is a good guess that one of the execs was checking those web sites that I mentioned, as they do (regularly)...and if said exec felt I had some good points, it might have caused him/her pause to think. I mean, how do you think these web sites are getting these clips anyway...they don't get them out of the blue from the stork? The marketing departments, studio publicists, and various others make deals with web sites and give them clips and info, sometimes as trial balloons to see how the public will react in advance to projects or to simply to attract publicity. Execs also have immediate and extended family members, wives, husbands, children, lovers, friends, neighbors, peers, acquaintances...etc., who read the web...and so they know when their material is being sneaked or leaked to the press or to a web site, one way, or another, whether with authorization or illegally. And trust me, these clips were not pulled form those sites, so they had to have been officially offered by the studio or by Mutant Enemy Productions--which means you can bet that some exec(s) or other company employees were monitoring those web sites and had full knowledge and access to the comments that were made by fans, and mine stood out above the others, simply because I was the only one not praising the material that was being forwarded. As well, I was the one person who was being attacked by the other posters. Now, if you are a studio employee or an executive--those very attacks, would most certainly draw your attention if you are checking a site for fan reactions, now wouldn't it?
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But considering that the show was only getting great notice at the time that I piped in, and no one, not even the Whedon haters, were analyzing the problems that I saw with the show, I'd say it is a good guess that one of the execs was checking those web sites that I mentioned, as they do (regularly)...and if said exec felt I had some good points, it might have caused him/her pause to think. I mean, how do you think these web sites are getting these clips anyway...they don't get them out of the blue from the stork? The marketing departments, studio publicists, and various others make deals with web sites and give them clips and info, sometimes as trial balloons to see how the public will react in advance to projects or to simply attract publicity for a given series or movie.Execs also have immediate and extended family members, wives, husbands, children, lovers, friends, neighbors, peers, acquaintances...etc., who read the web...and so they know when their material is being sneaked or leaked to the press or to a web site, one way, or another, whether with authorization or illegally. And trust me, these clips were not pulled from those sites, so they had to have been officially offered by the studio or by Mutant Enemy Productions--which means you can bet that some exec(s) or other company employees were monitoring those web sites and had full knowledge and access to the comments that were made by fans, and mine stood out above the others, simply because I was the only one not praising the material that was being forwarded. As well, I was the one person who was being attacked by the other posters. Now, if you are a studio employee or an executive--those very attacks, would most certainly draw your attention if you are checking a site for fan reactions, now wouldn't it?
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I miss him. At least his futile rage had a direction.
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Have you seen any bit of the show other than the teasers tht were posted?
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that seeps and bleeds. Must tear at you; thinking you could do better.
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If I were a movie exec, looking at a website for opinions by the fans, I swear to Christ I wouldn't be swayed by a lone dissenting voice with a fetish for question marks.
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He'll be amending 'tll Judgement Day.
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...not until recently. I have seen a second clip now, within the last two weeks, I think on AICN.com (???)...and that was not very encouraging. Eliza didn't speak in the scene. We first saw two male actors talking about the Dollhouse program...and then they watch Echo (Eliza) walking around downstairs looking curious, but aloof. The clip was highly pedestrain. As for the original clip I saw, something was off on the direction? The Galactica Guy is talking to Eliza. Suddenly, he hears a noise behind them, and pulls his gun, and Eliza's reaction to this, wasn't believable. You'd have to see it to believe it, but she looked and acted like she wasn't very concerned as she held onto a purse or something. It was just very casual, where as the Galactica actor was full on, "This is a deadly and serious threat." It was like they were acting in two different rooms...reacting to two different things??? Her response was right for the noise, but should have climbed greatly when he, Galactica Guy, turned, pulled, aimed the gun, and readied to fire.You are talking like you work at Mutant Enemy or something? Cheer up, if the series is good or great, I'll back it. I hated Firefly initially, but stuck with it, and about 3 or 4 episodes in, I was saying to myself, its growing on me...and by the last episodes...I was in love with it. So calm down...and I am right though.I touched off this fire for the good of the show...and if it is a hit, well, Joss is one step closer to being the new Spielberg that he should be, if not, well, at least this new direction gave him a better shot at it, than it would have if the status quo remained the same. I bet Eliza is finally starting to really find her role and act much more sharply...as she is capable of doing.And yes...I am jealous of Joss. This is Whedon we are talking about, a truly great writer, and a great director. I just feel he was a bit reluctant to direct Eliza and really tell her off for delivering lazy acting for reasons related to who she was dating at the time.
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Or, if you felt all along, as an exec, that maybe something was not quite right with the show, you might just say to yourself, "Hey...somebody else made the same observation I did, so maybe I should react to this...and speak up, while I still can? And if I need to use this person's post to get the conversation started among the other execs, why not? Besides, it can be used as cover, should my own open critique not be invited...I can alway just say, I found it interesting what a fan pointed out on a web site or two-- "What do you guys and gals think in the boardroom, about this?"
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There is no "fire". You saw the clips eveyone else has seen and your judgement was "meh". So was everyone and including else.
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we can also blame Media Messiah. After all he is the true brains behind it. Glad to see that Joss won't be the only one blamed for the quality of this show.
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Stop ganging up on MM. From the start, it's been clear Joss only did this to take advantage of Eliza's deal. He didn't spend months prepping like he did on Firefly... or know what not to do in regards to Buffy after the film... or spend three years working on Angel BEFORE his series. Here, he thought up an idea to take advantage of an existing deal. And it's clear that the idea wasn't finished gestating when they started. Hence taking ages to figure out what the show is.
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first of all, (and I've said this a million times) this is much ado about nothing. Every show goes through birthing pains. It's just that Joss is under way more scrutiny because of obsessive idiots like mediamessiah making his every move into something that must be commented on endlessly. Secondly, mediaantichrist loves to engage in classic forms of projection. I'm not the one with the persecution complex. He accuses me of wanting Joss to fail. Which is frankly ridiculous. What he calls a 'don't worry be happy' mentality is really me just saying 'wait and see' because we've seen 2 FUCKING CLIPS! There is no basis for judgment and even if there was , I don't have some narcissistically overblown sense of my own importance to think that any opinion I have on the matter, as completely ill-informed as it may be, based on TWO FUCKING CLIPS, makes ANY difference whatsover in how the show will be run. I am a fan. I just watch. See this is how it works. I can make my opinion known on sites like these, but I do not influence the show's production. My livelihood is not tied up in the show, so I will survive if the show is canceled. I would love to see another 7 year run from a Joss show, another icon created that resonates through pop culture. But whether the show succeeds or not has no bearing on my opinion. It's pathetic someone has to explain it to you. Christ, I'd almost rather deal with a Joss-hater like zerocorpse than you: crazy people that give Whedon fans a bad name. And one last thing, stop fucking posting twice!
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Firefly is by far Whedon's best show, and one of the best shows ever... because he started visualising it around the time of Buffy S3. So when it showed up, it was fully formed. When Fox demanded he do a new Pilot, Joss and Tim Mineaer managed to write it in a weekend because they GOT the characters. I don't want Dollhouse to fail, but come on. The thing has been plagued by bad press for months now. It's gone from Fox's darling to 'let's see if it can work on Fridays.' They're on multiple Pilots... Whedon has written multiple versions of the same scenes... the tone of the show has changed - while it might turn out okay, Whedon does not know what the show is.
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Do you really think you know what you're talking about? This is all hype. While all these little changes are going on, you really have no idea what's happening and what Whedon knows or doesn't know. You're just guessing. Every show has to find it's feet. Firefly may be an exception, but look how that turned out. This whole thing is exactly the kind of crap that Whedon complains about and mentions in this interview - in this current Internet impatient spoiler-happy culture, everybody has to know everything NOW. That people who have nothing to do with the process think they know what's going and make judgments based on speculation , rumors, commercials, and out-of-context clips. Wait. And. See. The. Fucking. Show.
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on the Dr. Horrible DVD.
11. HEART, BROKEN
Music and Lyrics by Joss Whedon
Performed by Joss Whedon
A CAVEMAN PAINTED ON A CAVE
IT WAS A BISON, WAS A FAVE
THE OTHER CAVE-PEOPLE WOULD RAVE –
THEY DIDN’T ASK “WHY?”
WHY PAINT A BISON IF IT’S DEAD
WHEN DID YOU CHOOSE THE COLOR RED
WHAT WAS THE PROCESS IN YOUR HEAD
HE TOLD THEIR STORY
WHAT CAME BEFORE HE DIDN’T SHOW
WE’RE NOT SUPPOSED TO
HOMER’S ODYSSEY WAS SWELL
A BUNCH OF GUYS THAT WENT THROUGH HELL
HE TOLD THE TALE BUT DIDN’T TELL
THE AUDIENCE WHY
HE DIDN’T SAY, HERE’S WHAT IT MEANS
AND HERE’S A FEW DELETED SCENES
CHARYBDIS TESTED WELL WITH TEENS
HE’S NOT THE STORY
HE’S JUST A DOOR WE OPEN IF
OUR LIVES NEED LIFTING
BUT NOW WE PICK PICK
PICK PICK PICK IT APART
OPEN IT UP TO FIND THE
TICK TICK TICK OF A HEART
A HEART, BROKEN
IT’S BROKEN BY THE ENDLESS LOADS
OF MAKING-OFS AND MOBISODES
THE TIE-INS, PREQUELS, GAMES AND CODES
THE AUDIENCE BUYS
THE NARRATIVE DIES
STRETCHED AND TORN
HEY, SPOILER WARNING:
WE’RE GONNA PICK PICK
PICK PICK PICK IT APART
OPEN IT UP TO FIND THE
TICK TICK TICK OF A HEART
A HEART, BROKEN
Jed:
JOSS, WHY DO YOU RAIL AGAINST THE BIZ
YOU KNOW THAT’S JUST THE WAY IT IS
YOU’RE MAKING EVERYBODY MIZ
Zack:
THESE OUT-OF-DATE PHILOSOPHIES
ARE FOR THE DINNER TABLE, PLEASE
WE HAVE TO SELL SOME DVD’S
Jed, Maurissa, Zack:
WITHOUT THESE THINGS YOU SPIT UPON
YOU’D FIND YOUR FAME AND FANBASE GONE
Maurissa:
YOU’D BE IGNORED AT COMIC-CON
Joss:
I SANG SOME THINGS I DIDN’T MEAN
OKAY, LET’S TALK ABOUT THIS SCENE
I THINK IT’S GREAT HOW RYAN GREEN -
OH THIS IS NO GOOD
I THOUGHT J-MO WOULD BACK MY PLAY
NOW ZACK AND THEY ALL SAY
WE’RE GONNA PICK PICK
PICK PICK PICK YOU APART
OPEN YOU UP AND STOP THE
TICK TICK TICK OF A HEART
A HEART…
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Sorry, don't buy that. We're smarter now than we were. Joss can't expect us to bow down at his feet and give him the benefit of the doubt when he's going through the exact same things that he went through on Firefly... a show with a stronger vision that never wavered once. And that was a show he really cared about. This? Isn't. It's something he did to take advantage of a deal Eliza had. That's not a debating point. It's something that, no question, hasn't worked the way he intended. He's on another Pilot, he's on multiple scenes and ditched characters, and he's saying nearly the same thing he said with Firefly. Then, the kicker, the timeslot he figured he would get isn't what he got. The show has been dumped on Friday. Now I thought Dr. Horrible was amazing. Brilliant. A sign that Joss was looking to tell stories his way. To symbolise a new start in the industry. But instead, he's working for Fox again and killing himself to get a show on the air that, once again, he came up with an idea to take advantage of a deal Eliza had. Can Joss surprise us? We all want him to. But naivity isn't going to help. Acting like everything is okay won't help. The show's had a bad start, pretending otherwise is putting your head in the sand and shrugging off some harsh realities. As for us being too harsh on speculation? It's a two-way street, if Joss wants to use the Internet to hype his shows he has to put up with the fact that people may not drink the kool-aid.
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Help what? How does what we do as viewers really affect anything? Better yet, what's the upshot of all this worry or speculation? How does it affect your viewing of the show and the final product? Whether you think you know what's going on or not (which you don't), does it really make a difference when you're watching the show? Unless it predisposes you to have low expectations, so you're pleasantly surprised, or on the other hand biases you against it. I'm just looking forward to seeing the show and seeing whether it works or not. I really don't care about anything else. The process will play out like it has to. Anything we say here's not going to matter to the outcome. I know this applies to every single talkback on this site, but maybe I've just gotten to the point where I'm sick of it all. Which is why I love that song from Commentary.
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People being skeptical of a show given evidence both old and new? Joss himself has said he struggled at first, it's hardly like we're quoting from sources that never existed. He's even said it took a while to find the show. Does it have a while on air to succeed? Terminator started high, then petered out. If this starts low, do you think they'll fight for it?
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that says it all. Sick of fanboy culture and the endless need to pick apart everything merely based on rumor and speculation, rather than discussing things of substance, based on critical thinking. That's what I'm sick of.
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