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Bryan Fuller Tells EW
What’s Doing With HEROES!!

I am – Hercules!!
Superscribe Bryan Fuller is back at “Heroes,” lashing together 3.19 as I type this. Entertainment Weekly’s Michael Ausiello has a first-rate interview with Fuller, asking him first where he thinks the show went wrong:
BRYAN FULLER: It became too dense and fell into certain sci-fi trappings. For instance, in the “Villains” arc, when you talk about formulas and catalysts, it takes the face off the drama. And I think the goal for everybody is to put a face back on the drama. You have to save something with a face; otherwise you don’t understand what you’re caring about. I thought the "Villains" arc started out very interestingly, and then became sort of muddy and dense and I couldn't get my hooks into the characters to understand their motivations. I also started to feel confused about what people's abilities were. One of the great things about the first season is that the metaphor for their abilities was very clear. Those metaphors seem to have gotten complicated in the past two seasons. I share that concern with everybody on the writing staff. It's not like I'm coming in and saying, "This is what you need to do to fix it!" Everybody knows what needs to be fixed and everybody is sort of rowing in that direction.
Fuller also says he intends to hang around for season four. Next Monday’s episode is 3.13 and concludes the show’s appallingly lunkheaded “Villians” arc. How lunkheaded? Noah, who’s been corralling superhumans for a couple decades or so, slashes Sylar’s throat and wanders off, never suspecting for a second that Sylar might be able to heal such a deep, deep incision. Even though his daughter has been doing that trick every day for the last year or so. No need to fully decapitate Sylar, or take Sylar’s head with him, or stick Sylar’s brain in a meat grinder or dump Sylar’s whole body in vat of hydrochloric acid. No. He cut Sylar’s throat pretty deep; no way Sylar’s going to heal up once that eclipse goes away. Fuller, who wrote the first season’s best episodes before he went away to create "Pushing Daisies" for ABC, calls 3.14, 3.15 and 3.16 (the first three episodes of the “Fugitives” arc launching first thing next year) “amazing,” which some readers may take to mean that 3.17 and 3.18 are not. “[I]t gets a little dense in the middle in terms of the mythology,” notes Fuller. Find all of Ausiello’s interview with Fuller here.

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Readers Talkback
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  • Dec. 11, 2008, 3:58 p.m. CST

    First, Come up with a Hero...

    by Bumpasses Dawg

    That can bring people back from the dead for one minute

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Bryan Fuller tells EW...

    by Inglorious Bastard

    what was on everyone elses mind. He is a very talented writer but is that enough to save Heroes from its run of stupidity?

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Whatever

    by HorrorFan81

    HEROES sucks. The only thing that can cure it is to be Cancelled.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4 p.m. CST

    I don't think Noah was in on the whole eclipse

    by gotilk

    thing. BUT, in retrospect, it would be funny if at some point he expressed his regret for not having put his noggin in a wood chipper. That and the fact that Noah has softened in a very unrealistic way. Does he even know who he works for anymore? There's no visible structure to "the company". <br> <br> I did like how the guy from the 4400 didn't learn his lesson the first time and went ahead and took promycin again though. Nice touch. <br> <br> I criticize the hell out of this show, but I have felt it's been more entertaining for a couple of weeks. I'm pulling for it. But they need to leave Sylar in a "gray" area. No more of this back and forth crap. I think he's more interesting if you don't know what he'll do next, but his recent "shifts" have felt like an argument between writers more than anything.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:04 p.m. CST

    Fuller. Don't.

    by billypilgrimisunstuck

    Breathe new life into Daisies. Hope dammit! HOPE!

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:12 p.m. CST

    billypilgrimisunstuck

    by gotilk

    So true. I want Heroes to not suck, but I want Daisies back more. And there's a chance that if this ship takes him down with it, maybe it makes the odds for a Daisies return even worse.<br> <br> So sad.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:14 p.m. CST

    lex luthor's dad is coming on board too

    by bacci40

    as sylars pop...even though we thought he was dead...this show is good at bringing back dead daddies...fuller sees the issues...can he fix them? only time will tell...and i have a feeling that kring will be ousted as show runner at season's end should the show get renewed

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:16 p.m. CST

    Herc has been way too hard on this season.

    by Burgundy82

    It's been a huge improvement. I'm not saying we should all turn off our brains (I fucking hate that phrase) and overlook obvious plotholes, I'm just saying the ones I've noticed this season haven't spoiled my enjoyment of the show. My assessment of Villains: The opening eps had some great, great moments, the eclipse episodes dragged ass, and as of this week, it's picking way up again. Uneven? Definitely. As bad as it's been made out to be in these (increasingly rare) Talkbacks? Not even close.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:17 p.m. CST

    bacci40

    by gotilk

    John Glover?? Seriously? Nice.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:17 p.m. CST

    Fonzie is prepping for the big jump

    by ls420

    lets hope he can save things, i hate to see it completely jump the shark

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:20 p.m. CST

    The following has been quoted for truth:

    by DisneyFanatic

    "I thought the "Villains" arc started out very interestingly, and then became sort of muddy and dense and I couldn't get my hooks into the characters to understand their motivations. I also started to feel confused about what people's abilities were."

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:21 p.m. CST

    gotilk...yup

    by bacci40

    hopefully they will give him more to do than forester had...now that was truly a waste of a good actor...i still think the show has possibilities...and i think that if anyone can fix the show, its fuller

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:24 p.m. CST

    daisies...victim of the writer's strike

    by bacci40

    i think sag needs to think twice before authorizing another strike...this aint 1988...people will not return to tv and they will do without paying 13 bux to go to the movies...not saying the producers are right in this matter, but they may have the upper hand when you look at the economy and the overall state of the entertainment industry

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:28 p.m. CST

    Isn't that the truth.

    by gotilk

    Forrester seemed to be half asleep the whole time, too. And not in a good way like Robert Mitchum. More like in a coma. It was great to see him, but then he just stood there and looked like a guy with power. I have faith in the show, too. Or I should say hope. I have hopes. I hope Fuller can bring in Ben Edlund from time to time.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:40 p.m. CST

    The best thing they can do...

    by epitone

    ...is to stop. All. The. God. Damned. Pretend. DEATHS.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:40 p.m. CST

    Season 4?

    by Melvin_Pelvis

    that's a bit optimistic ain't it?<p> The show is and has been donkey turds for awhile now.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:42 p.m. CST

    I thought last week's ep

    by Bloo

    sucked ass<P>it started off pretty good, but at the end, Hiro acted like a lunkhead and Claire (or rather the writers) nullifed what made Company Man such a great episode, for the first time Bennet was standing up against the company, by not answering that phone call, it took that away

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:52 p.m. CST

    "Appallingly lunkheaded".

    by Pennsy

    Accurate, and the ratings bear Herc out.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 4:59 p.m. CST

    I would follow Bryan Fuller to the ends of the Earth

    by NoodlesHahn

    (As long as it's on television and I don't have to actually go anywhere.)<p>I stuck with the show until the end of Elle's arc but now I'm excited about Fuller putting his fingerprints on the show again.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:06 p.m. CST

    Re: Season 4?

    by jbs0209

    What the Hell else does NBC have?<p> Yet one more hour of Leno?<p> NBC is doing so poorly they need to cling to even the losers.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:07 p.m. CST

    Fuller's Interview Concerns Me....

    by IAmMrMonkey!

    I've absolutely loved this show over the last twelve episodes. It may be bat shit crazy but it's been crazy enough to entertain me and wonder "What the fuck is going to happen next?" Time travelling uncles? Aliens? Robots emerging from the centre of the Earth? Pretty much ANYTHING could have happened this season.<p>In his interview, Fuller talks about how they're going to dial things back. Peter will return to being a paramedic, Claire will be looking at colleges.... yawn. This worries me because I don't want to spend an episode with Claire looking at colleges with her dad or watching Peter rushing someone to the hospital. I want comic book action! Bat shit crazy wins over hum drum 'real life moments' in my eyes. I guess I'll probably be proved wrong when Fuller's reign begins but, up until that point, I remain slightly nervous.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:09 p.m. CST

    Daisies Fans: Explain something to me...

    by Raymar

    How come when Chuck was revived, she wasn't filled with embalming fluid and stuff and was normal but her dad is a zombie? Do you come back as the undead or restored to normal?

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:12 p.m. CST

    problems

    by wixmmm

    my favorite characters were hiro and peter. What i liked so much about hero was that in episodes of season one we saw a) who hiro was and b) what he would one day become. Now here we are, in season 3, and hiro has become an IDIOT. Having him unlock that safe right off the bat was an unforgivable mistake made by the writers. Hiro was perfectly content with risking the future of the world just so he could go on another adventure??? and then he refuses to go 5 minutes back in time and stop him from doing that...because he now is morally opposed to going back in time, even after seeing the world break down in the future? what could hiro possibly do by going back FIVE MINUTES in time, aside from, gee, i don't know...SAVING THE WORLD. Flash foward to where we are now--oh, a comic book says go back in time, so hiro says ok i'll do that and save the world even though i vowed not to ever again. The crazy part is that by going back SIXTEEN YEARS, one mistake could change the world in a HUGE way. So, he decides it is ok to go back in time SIXTEEN YEARS in an attempt to save the world, when he should really go back to that office and not open the damn safe...

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:16 p.m. CST

    Reboot!

    by Aquatarkusman

    Disparaging the reboot is a rebootable offense!

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:17 p.m. CST

    TIME TRAVEL: The power that must GO

    by Drath

    Although I don't know how you'd get Hiro back after stranding him like a dummy. This seasons sucks almost as much as last season did. They need to figure out how to make people like Hiro and Peter competent without incapacitating them or taking away their powers. Also, Elle dying as another notching in Sylar's belt--and Sylar btw going back to a sick killing were both horrible choices. Elle dying seemed like a mercy killing, but they managed to make her death offensive and followed it up with yet another misogynistic murder. I don't watch this show to get a weekly helping of "brutal murders of women." Let the sickos who get off on this Seven shit go rent Fincher rip offs. ************************************************** Kind of funny seeing that 4400 kid turn up on this show. Funnier still that he again gets powers by a formula. I kind of like the idea of a current war vet getting powers on this show, so I wonder how they will fuck it up. Fuller will probably reveal that he is gay...which honestly would be more plausible than Zach, who clearly had a boner for Claire no matter what the writing intended.******************************************* Here's hoping that they stop killing people on this show in general. It's a wasteful and sloppy way to have characters leave. All it does is make me hate it.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:20 p.m. CST

    They'd be better off...

    by jgsugden

    Cancelling this show and trying again. Get a Straczynski, Whedon, or someone else that has written good comics and good TV. Do it right from the get-go. A lot of the problems in Heroes are problems that DC and Marvel faced 25 years ago - How do you threaten an invincible hero? What prevents a time traveler from just doing things over and over and over until they like the outcome? If they don't want to cancel it, just have Hiro go back in time, change something and DIE in the past. That will allow them to reboot without calling it a reboot.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:23 p.m. CST

    Pennsy

    by Burgundy82

    In all fairness, you seemed to be pretty onboard with S3 until they offed KB (which I agree was a dumb fucking move).

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:35 p.m. CST

    and the safe / and peter

    by wixmmm

    if the writers were smart, and were going to involve the safe idea, they would have dangled that plot point for at least three episodes so it would create a mystery element and there would be a certain amount of suspense added to that. they seem to be so intent on writing plot twists every 5 minutes of an episode that they have completely neglected to build even a small degree of suspense in the story. You build up a plot point with mystery and suspense so you can have a big reveal of a plot twist that would serve as the big payoff to the fans who would have been kept guessing for a certain amount of time. i mean some of this stuff is writing 101 ........................ the other favorite character i had was peter. out of all the characters, he's the one i wanted to see evolve as the real standout hero that the rest of the characters can rely on when it comes to saving their lives, fighting a villian, and saving the world. The most disappointing thing to me about season 2 was how he had his powers stripped from him. and then i have to see that done again in season 3...maybe i'm an idiot for reading the heroes comics (actually i stopped midway through because they sucked so much) but in those comics they have a shot of peter as a real superhero, costume and all. Yes, they made him all powerful, some say too powerful--but that's a copout. talented writers know how to take an all powerful character and find ways to threaten that character, just look at superman, he's practically a god yet the writers find ways to challenge him. The best comparison is Doc Manhatten, basically a god, but they made that character real, and they knew how to write a character who is a god but knew how to use him, develop him and show his emotion. If the character has depth, no matter what amount of abilities he has, that character serves a purpose. I got into this show thinking i'd get to see peter just go all out with his powers in a climax, stretch himself so thin he can barely hold it together, and cap it off by either a) him being changed fundamentally by the stand or b) go out in a blaze of glory and die. I have always been most interested in peter. yet, i would totally accept them killing off my favorite character if they made the last 10 minutes of his life count, like doomsday/superman (i know, that plot sucked, but the foundation for what i'm talking about is there.) What i did like most about season two was that they found a way to really take the character from being an emotional nurse who always was overshadowed by his big brother and turn him into a more cynical, jaded and tougher person than he was when we met him. It seemed like they were prepping him for greatness, but then he blindy follows monroe, knowing that people have warned him that monroe was dangerous. Ok, he trusts monroe...they talked alot in their cells, monroe saved his brother, but if all these people are warning him, its ok for him to not believe them, but what was NOT OK was that he didn't find it necessary to at least look over adam's shoulder when he allows him to get access to the plague. Now here we are in season three, and i don't know what to think about the character now...mainly because its gotten confusing trying to figure his character out...like, why take sylar's power when his is easier and less dangerous.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:36 p.m. CST

    Raymar

    by optimus122

    Her father has been in the ground for years while she was only in a morgue/funeral palor shortly after her death.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:38 p.m. CST

    wixmmm

    by Doggus47

    I agree with you on the safe thing. But Hiro was 11 years old, in his brain (lord knows why), when he decided to go back 16 years. I think that is a reasonable explanation, albeit not great.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:40 p.m. CST

    wixmmm (RE: Problems)

    by IAmMrMonkey!

    You have to remember that Hiro had lost his memory and, at that particular point, wouldn't have remembered his vows not to time travel. Everything else you said in that post is, sadly, quite true.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:40 p.m. CST

    final note

    by wixmmm

    making fun of hiro for liking comic books in the s how is an insult to many of the fans who no doubt read comics and watch the show because it is allegedly a superhero show. that little plot point had to come from kring, who i believe hates comic books and comic book fans and probably is more embarrassed to know that he is behind a superhero show than he is embarrassed by how flawed his show has become... and after all that ranting--i still have hope for the show. (i've been reading these talkbacks all season but lost my aicn password until i recently found it, so all this stuff has been building up forever and i kinda had to let it all out.)

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:41 p.m. CST

    Doggus47

    by IAmMrMonkey!

    Damn you! *Shakes fist*

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:43 p.m. CST

    all powerful peter

    by wixmmm

    i forgot the most important part--if peter's got unlimited abilities and that fact has become a problem for the writers, to fix it you attack him emotionally, which would be his weakness greatest weakness, and is the reason superheroes wear costumes--to protect those closest to them...that is always the threat to very powerful characters.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:45 p.m. CST

    Yes, Burgundy82, guilty as charged. :)

    by Pennsy

    There was no complaint from me, understand, about Kristen leaving. That was a given. It was the *way* she was written out that galled me to no end. There was no chance of a return. And Monday's episode drew 275,000 fewer viewers than the 12/1 episode. That's horrible for a show trying to build momentum toward a midseason finale that is more and more like TNT's NBA playoffs catchphrase-Win Or Go Home. They need a knockout finale, and I think they've got as much chance of that as De La Hoya had against the Filipino.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:46 p.m. CST

    I've got the answer! The writers can't do it!

    by :-o

    Look. Enough is enough. Krig and company can't do it. Its not the end of the world. Their concept was a 1st act. Thats it. Nothing to cry about. It was a nice 3 months. But unlike Lost the thread just didn't deliver. Anything. What. So. Ever. I mean not a single compelling WTF plot point or addictive character in the entire 2 years.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:52 p.m. CST

    To be fair, the Heroes

    by Pennsy

    This was from Greg Beeman's blog (he's one of the zillion exec producers on Heroes): "Sadly – as of this episode Kristen Bell departs the show – we loved having her here. She is a pro and an all-around good egg. The scene where Sylar burns her body was her last scene in the series - but I actually directed her on her last day of shooting. This was the scene at the rental car dealership from episode 10. When we wrapped that scene the Assistant Director announced that Kristen was finished in the series. There was a huge round of applause and weepy eyes all around. Tim Kring and Kristen had explored keeping her around longer – and I know Kristen wanted to come back. There were potential storylines about pregnancies and babies…. But the truth is she has a very busy career with a lot of feature films, pilots and much else in the works. We had no official contract with her – and she couldn’t commit to exactly when she could return. And so it was decided that this would be the most exciting way to end her character. She will be missed." <p> It was the first item of his "Beeming Beeman" blog, so the fan outrage obviously was heard near the top of the showrunner food chain. I didn't know she didn't have a contract with them; whatever they paid her, it wasn't enough. <p> But now that she's gone, I pitch an open question to the floor; give me one reason to hope for the best, since Fuller isn't on board until 3.19, to watch next week's finale. I haven't seen any previews of it, but then again, maybe I haven't gone outta my way to see them. They've f'd up Sylar, Hiro, even HRG. The dead weight's still there (Daphne, Knox, Flint, Meredith, Maya, Ali Larter Inc.). I want to believe the show can be good again.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:53 p.m. CST

    To be fair, the Heroes BTS folks were sad to see her go.

    by Pennsy

    That's what it should have said.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:55 p.m. CST

    HAH! Elle's ALIVE, DAMMIT!

    by Pennsy

    And doing a crossword puzzle. I :p at Sylar! http://tinyurl.com/6p99dh <p> ;)

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 5:58 p.m. CST

    wixmmm....there was a worse thing

    by bacci40

    it was ok for hiro's dad to be down on him for reading comics...it was a slap in the face of all comics collectors when kring put the line in about the comic shoppe guys never growing up because they read comics and ate junk food...and way to waste 2 more good talents, who should become the lone gunmen of the show...kring doesnt get that it was the buzz from the geeks that got the show off on such a great run...

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:13 p.m. CST

    bacci

    by wixmmm

    your completely correct. kring thinks its ok to rip off the fly because it's such a 'great idea' ...maybe he's diluted enough to think its a 'homage' to a movie/director he actually respects. yet he won't acknowledge that there are sooooooo many comic books that are in existence that would help out the show tremendously, but he won't, because he doesn't have respect for comics. put him in a classroom with a bunch of creative writing students and have geoff johns come in to speak--kring would be like the kid in the back of the class who has no respect for the qualified teacher whom he could learn so much from, so he falls asleep even though he's paying 15 grand a semester to go to a school where he could learn from the best. he hates comics, hates people who reads and more than anything hates himself by being a part of the genre he so loathes.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:22 p.m. CST

    oh yeah--i iowe a big thank you

    by wixmmm

    i owe a HUGE THANK YOU to those of you who have posted in the heroes blogs and have compared it to supernatural. actually, you absolutely cannot compare the two--supernatural is a show that is done right...oh so many levels. I kept reading posts where people praise it, and they are correct. i'm absolutely loving it. i never gave it a chance because a) its on the CW and b) the two straight outta abrecrombie and fitch looking actors. not only can they act, but they play so well off of each other. They are one of the best, if not the best, examples of an unbelievably strong big brother/little brother relationship on television. Great, great show...its filled the void that heroes left within me... and then some

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:23 p.m. CST

    Can someone please explain...

    by quadrupletree

    This weeks episode to me? How the fuck did Arthur Petrelli end up back in time with Hiro and Claire?? One minute he's in the present and then we see him in the past? Did he have Hiro's power from way back in the episode where he took his memories? If so they didn't explain that very well. Like he was able to take his powers but not TAKE his powers like he usually does. This weeks episode totally left me sitting there going what the FUCK?? And I completely agree, Time travel has got to go as an ability. It completely fucks everything up, it's a lazy writing tool, and the show has become formulaic now. Every season now, first they go to the future and see something bad will happen, then they have to stop it from happening, then they travel through time to stop it from happening. It's a dead horse now. I don't know if anyone can save this show anymore.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:26 p.m. CST

    Season 4? Good luck!

    by V'Shael

    Even if you get a Season 4, like Enterprise, the show is toast. <p> Manny Coto actually did wonderful work on Enterprise. But the show had already been fucked up the ass by the previous 3 years of idiocy.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:33 p.m. CST

    sorry, things just keep coming to me

    by wixmmm

    the two brothers, if they wanted, could get girls to fall all over them, yet the love interests are very few and very far in between. that's a big reason i respect the show, it plays to the strengths of the actors, characters, and plots. the showrunners know that to get the demographic they are aiming for they don't need to have these pointless love interest subplots. it took smallville FOREVER to realize that the lana/clark soap opera was bringing the show down...and since lana left the show has become better than ever. although, now the lois love interest is starting to show, but its lois and clark, for gods sake. i am interested to see it start to form, because we know that its the lois and clark relationship that actually has a future...we all knew lana wasn't the love of his life, yet they continued to go on and on with it.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:35 p.m. CST

    i have an interesting story

    by bacci40

    one of my clients is a writer...just got a gig writing a kids superhero script...prob is, its based on a more adult book...she had to change the main character's powers to fit in with a kid's storyline...took her three months so as not to mess up continuity and close a bunch of plot holes...i asked her why she didnt call me...she smacks herself on the head...so next week we are "doing lunch", to go over some other issues she is having....i knew that my 40 years of reading and collecting comics would come to fruition...but check it out...she spent 3 months making sure that a specific power would work correctly...this is something that the heroes writers seem to miss...oh, and she was sent season 1 of heroes to used as research...im bringing her rising stars and wildcards...told her to go out and buy season 1 of 4400...as an aside, the hero's power was pretty good and very unique...the ability to talk to tatoos...for some reason, that is too risque for a kids movie

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:42 p.m. CST

    My question

    by cooper2000

    Have most of these people on the writing staff for Heroes written for TV before. They dont seem to know what interests people or how to create a character archs or non cliches? Weren't the receiving advice from Krige, the show runner? It seems like Fuller is providing them with guidance and thats exactly what the show needs.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:42 p.m. CST

    quadrupletree

    by bacci40

    arthur got the power from peter...how he deduced that they would go to that exact place and time is a kinda plot hole...but there is something about that roof...to me the issue is how they keep effing around with how powers work...one week (and in the comic) the haitians powers work inately...he doesnt have to focus on a specific person...he just dampens the powers of everyone around him...next week, he must focus...the writers and many fans try to excuse this by saying that many comics end up with plotholes...but not issue to issue, or even in the same issue...maybe years apart, when a series gets a new writer and editor...unless you are talking late 90s xmen...which was just a giant mess...and i still wish fuller would talk kring into hiring ellis....let him write the first arc of season 4....everyone fooking dies...it would be brilliant

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:49 p.m. CST

    NOT too dense and sci-fi

    by jccalhoun

    It wasn't that Heroes became "too dense and fell into certain sci-fi trappings." It was that it became too soap opera and fell into sci-fi cliches that were old when the Twilight Zone was new. <br><Br>THe show does twist after twist and yet still loves the status quo. It will do everything to twist thing and change characters and then do everything it can to undo it all and wrap it up in lame cliffhangers that can be seen a mile away.<br><br>This week when they were testing the soldier I asked myself, "Why are these people doing this?" and I couldn't answer it. Why is Peter involved? He doesn't know why he was seeing Linderman. Has he forgotten all about religion? Why is Tracy Strauss helping? Didn't she originally want to get rid of her powers? Are we going to find out why they were given powers? Why is Mohinder so eager to help? Why was he cocooning people? What happened to the people he cocooned? <br><br>And then there are all the minor characters. Why was the African guy needed? Why was Claire's mom? Why is Claire in this at all? For that matter what does Matt have to do with any of this?

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:53 p.m. CST

    Sylar

    by cooper2000

    He has become a characture. They should have ended his arc a year ago.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:54 p.m. CST

    cooper2000...yes

    by bacci40

    prob is...most of the writers on the show, owe their careers to kring...he also grabbed a couple from the comix industry (other than loeb) but he got guys who do for hire work...im not saying that it is ez to work on superman...but there is a diff between writing within a universe that is already created, and creating one of your own...i pointed this out before, but heroes doesnt seem to have a show bible...and that was the first thing that kring, loeb and whoever else shoulda come up with...they alluded to having one, as kring said he had a five year plan...but it is readily apparent to most that he and others were making it up as they went along...but the biggest problem with the show, is kring's need to have it be more than it is...it is fluff...there is nothing wrong with that...people need to escape from their lives for a few hours per week...but kring didnt want to put out fluff...he wanted the show to be like star trek...commenting on issues of the day...but kring has no clue how to do that within the context of a superhero storyline...fuller didnt make the same mistake with daisies (didnt save the show, but that wasnt his fault)...if kring respected the medium, he woulda called up neil adams and denny o'neil...whose green arrow/green lantern showed how you intersperse real life issues into a superhero comic...speedy on drugs remains one of the best arcs ever created for mainstream comics

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:54 p.m. CST

    Wait a minute

    by Wolverine's Dad

    If Claire and Syler came back to life after dying without powers, shouldn't Arthur Petrelli and Peter from the future have came back to life once they were out of range of the Haitain?

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 6:57 p.m. CST

    jccalhoun...the african guy was needed

    by bacci40

    cuz tim sale needed the gig...dont diss on the african dude...i want sale to make as much money as he can off this shit...i love that guy

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 7:32 p.m. CST

    Lunkhead

    by NudeandAroused

    I guess I am a lunkhead. I've enjoyed the season thus far.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 7:42 p.m. CST

    I've been pretty patient with this show...

    by ArtisticGrief

    I was forgiving of the second season. I think it had some good elements. I thought Villains started out good. But maybe it's a sign of how convoluted the show has become or perhaps it's because I'm re-watching Season 1 for the first time since it aired and remembering how great it was (probably it's both), but I've been hit with the reminder of how far this show has fallen. It's like watching a Season 5 episode of The Simpsons and then watching a Season 15 episode. All the familiar characters are there, but nothing quite connects like it once did. And Sylar is starting to feel like a caricature of himself. That said, news of Fuller's return has been a great breath of fresh air, and hearing his thoughts on the show have me very excited for Fugitives whereas I really couldn't care less about what happens next week in the Villains finale. I love that we'll start seeing people back in their jobs, like Peter the nurse. I hope Ali Larter is one of the ones to be killed off. I like her a lot, but I thought the whole "twin" sister angle was a cheap way to have your cake and eat it too by killing off a major character and then keeping the same actress.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 7:51 p.m. CST

    bacci

    by wixmmm

    you said: 'if kring respected the medium, he woulda called up neil adams and denny o'neil...whose green arrow/green lantern showed how you intersperse real life issues into a superhero comic' if you're going to talk at all about learning from green lantern, you absolutely need to credit geoff johns, who i referenced in a previous rant/post. I'm starting to wonder if Geoff Johns is human. His name is on EVERYTHING worth reading--the new green lantern (which he has done 2 out of 3 story arcs for lantern so far...Sinestro Corps war was incredible) He had a run on Action Comics that was fantastic. He somehow made a booster gold monthly comic that is great, he did Infinite Crisis, and now Final Crisis (which i am accumulating and waiting till its over to start, so i say anything about that) I mean the body of work he is doing is at such high quality. I probably wish i had his job (and life, too, more the matter) more than any person on the planet. Although, CC Sabathia comes in at a very close second (i live in wisconsin, and am a huge brewers fan) The guy deserves every penny of the 161 million the yankees are giving him. Now lets get him to finance a Geoff Johns written superhero trilogy. I can dare to dream.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:03 p.m. CST

    take that bullet out of Arthur's head...

    by thecomedian

    And he should be good to go. Please don't let this arc end with Peter Vs. Nathan. Nathan is such a tool and if Arthur was this bad assed uber-powerful empath more powerful than Peter and Sylar than it's really shithouse writing for them to kill him off in such a lame way.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:07 p.m. CST

    apalling season with regards to stupidity

    by Lane_myers111

    apalling season with regards to stupidity of characters actions and convoluted stories. You could take pretty much every episode and come up with several massively obvious mistakes made by the characters just so the story can move forward in a certain way. Take last week when they all realised that Claire contained the catalyst and it was absolutely vital that she remain hidden and safe from arthur petrelli. First Noah takes her to that blackhole guys house where he nows sylars been before.(there we get that uncomfortably bad scene where hes training her with that bit of broken wood)Sylar and elle find her there but luckily for him have no powers. He barely gets her away after she is shot. Where does he take her then. To his own house where sylar had previously been and cut the top of her head off and stolen her power.He leaves her with his powerless wife,bullet hole in her arm and dying, not knowing at all if her abilities are going to return. His justification is "oh what if shes at the hospital and her powers come back"..uh she'd be alive..what if she dies at the house and her powers dont come back hmmm should have thought of that.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:10 p.m. CST

    So Lex Luthor is Sylar's Dad?

    by Bob Cryptonight

    John Glover? Could work...

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:12 p.m. CST

    Or was he Luthor's Dad?

    by Bob Cryptonight

    I don't watch SMALLVILLE.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:15 p.m. CST

    Hiros abilities

    by Lane_myers111

    I really think that along the lines of The law laid down in the film Jumper Hiro should have to know the place is jumping too before he goes there. I mean what is it in his ability that guides him to the right place and time. When they needed to find Daphne and all they knew was she lived in a house by a corn field in and they had a black and white pencil drawing. He closes his eyes and it takes him to the exact place without knowing. Something guides him even when he has no knowledge of where to go. They absolutely have to ditch all notion of premonition. It takes all the joy out of a story when you have any idea about exactly how its gonna play out. As much as i love the work of the actor whose played him,They need to ditch Ando. Hiro needs to become closer to the future version of himself and the comedy stuff between them is now becoming excruciating. The whole comic book store scenes were unbelievably bad.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:23 p.m. CST

    The rest of the world needs to know

    by Lane_myers111

    they should get the powers out in the open and deal with the prejudice issues that would ensue. One of the things i liked about last weeks episode was Nathans speech to Peter about how a world of special abilities could be a great idea. It made complete sense that if you had well intentioned people with special powers they could go to places like Darfur,Afghanistan or Iraq and help massive world wide problems. He was speaking intelligently and sensibly unlike when at the beginning of the season they had him ranting on about being sent from god.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:25 p.m. CST

    One power = One person

    by Lane_myers111

    probably makes more sense there way because genetically more than one person would get the same power but call me old fashioned it has to be one power one person.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:28 p.m. CST

    i will honestly shoot someone

    by wixmmm

    i will honestly shoot someone if i have to hear ANYBODY call daphne "nemesis" one more time. i cringed the first bunch of times, then as they kept with it i begun to feel like i might have to puke. God as my witness, one more time, and i will shit myself......to prove a point. Ok, maybe that logic is flawed, but its no more flawed than the logic one finds in this show week in, week out. And after all i've said (which is alot) i actually still have hope for the show...but each week i die a little inside.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:29 p.m. CST

    Claires blood

    by Lane_myers111

    Now that hiro has chaged history so that Claire wasnt given the catalyst,make the effect of that to be that her blood no longer heals. You cant have everyone wandering evrytime a character has been killed wether or not there gonna come back

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:34 p.m. CST

    The Company

    by Lane_myers111

    Not sure about this but i think they should possibly ditch the idea of the Company. Is it me or does the company just seem small fry to me. there prison fucking terrible and ridiculously easy to get in and out off. and they only seem to own one really shoddy looking building.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:35 p.m. CST

    These people are hilariously incompetent

    by reflecto

    "Starting four episodes before the end, it's gonna be great! The usual season is not even half over and now we want to talk to you about our exciting plans for September 2009!" GIVE IT UP!

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:39 p.m. CST

    Bring back certain characters and powers

    by Lane_myers111

    If your gonna have more than one ability then bring back..an invisible character (would love eccleston back),persuasion character like eden,a phasing character like dl hawkins (shouldnt have got rid of any of those charaacters),bring in a morphing character like mystique,basically rip off a load of great x men powers you havent used yet and try and come up with some sweet new ones.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:41 p.m. CST

    wixmmm...i respect johns

    by bacci40

    and if fuller is put in charge of hiring writers, i would have no prob if he called on johns...i was just pointing out a team that was capable of taking a mainstream superhero team and placing them within the real world

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:42 p.m. CST

    Oh and fuck John Glover

    by reflecto

    He is just the latest in a long line of disposable ubervillains the show forgets about after ten seconds. None of them mean anything or have a point. "OMFG YOU GUYS...WE GOT MALCOLM MOTHERFUCKIN MCDOWELL AS LINDERMANohwaithe'sdead....BUT WAIT...the REAL BAD GUY IS FUCKIN' DAVID ANDERS FROM ALIASnowaithe'sgone...but OH SNAP it's actually ROBERT MOTHAFUCKIN FORSTER FROM JACKIE BROWN LIKE OMFG!!!waitwekilledhim...but look...did any of you ever watch SMALLVILLE...?"

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:48 p.m. CST

    i have never seen 1 second of pushing daisies

    by Timahh

    but i think that may be one of the best first posts i've ever seen. well done sir, whose name i wont mention because i dont feel like scrolling up.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:50 p.m. CST

    and i dont think s3 has been too bad

    by Timahh

    last year was sucha god awful trainwreck. but i think this season with a few exceptions(i really dont care about plot holes, especially in a show about people with superpowers) has been pretty good. If they kill off some characters(chief among them ALI LARTER) and they don't allow them to come back somehow, i'm in for the next volume.

  • I guess that solves the problem of him being too dumb to use them right--but what a fucking shit thing to do. We NEVER got to see him use them right! We'll never see the mega fight with him and Sylar we should have seen in the finale of season 1. That's the only good reason to bother making him evil again, so he and Peter can have the fight to end all fights. Is it really too fucking hard to give us a Dark City/Matrix: Revolutions show down between these two? They should cancel this shit now if they can't. The action on this show is godawful, and I'm annoyed they still have absolutely no clue about audience gratification. Sucks also that all those powers he got from characters now dead aren't coming back. I liked that he could fly and do the force thing at least. Shitty writers, stupid showrunner...

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:50 p.m. CST

    RICK ASTLEY FOR UK XMAS #1

    by elbowburger

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  • Dec. 11, 2008, 8:51 p.m. CST

    More stupidity

    by Lane_myers111

    How stupid was it that just to create a bit of tension all of a sudden the Haitian has limits to how much power he can stop?.. if Arthur Petrelli knew that the catalyst was inside Hiros mum why not travel back and get it off her. If he didnt know then how did he know the exact time and place to travel too to steal it off hiro on that roof. I suppose he could have painted it in a premonition but they didnt show it. With all the powers he had and how important it was that he get it why was he sending that fear powered muppet and the bald flame boy to get it.all they needed was a cell phone "Boys if you see her give me a buzz and ill be there in 1 second with my god like abilities to finish the job"

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 9:12 p.m. CST

    Bring back black hole guy

    by MurderMostFowl

    I have said it before, but it's worth repeating. That character had potential and you threw him away in 1 ( and a half I guess ) episodes??? WTF!? A hero griefstricken with killing someone with his lack of control of his powers, with the potential ability to control elements of space-time in a novel way. No... no room for a good story there. Just a stupid excuse to shoot a "tornado" scene. <BR> On the off chance that a Heros writer is reading this talkback ( chortle ) you've got a freebie here... make his black holes actually be dimensional portals. In fact if you make it out to be portals like the video game "Portal" ( and all of the cleverness therein ) you'll have a very unique ability that you only *might* get sued for :) but will look really cool on TV

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 9:29 p.m. CST

    killing off characters

    by wixmmm

    i agree that characters need to be killed and stop being brought back...however, with intelligent writing killing and bringing back wouldn't be such a problem. Case in point: Supernatural. I'm almost through season 3 and there have been a handful of times dean or sam or their dad has been killed, but brought back. Did i ever expect dean or sam to die and not come back? of course not. But the acting and writing makes it work...even when you know a character isn't really dead, the way the one left standing reacts to a death works. it works because they do it under the right circumstances, the characters have memorable ways of responding to the death, and the writers never seem to go the obvious route...i'd be ok with another handful of deaths that don't stay dead, the way they do it. so glad i got into this show--its so unpredictable and never falls into the many traps heroes does. and black hole guy was a cool character and original ability.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 10:05 p.m. CST

    oh and the eclipse...

    by jccalhoun

    wtf was the point of that?<br><br>although I'm guessing that it gave Peter his powers back for some reason.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 10:12 p.m. CST

    gotta disagree with the 'let sylar die' guys

    by freydis

    he's the only thing that keeps me coming back. which, I can see how that's limiting for the character-- to a much smaller extent, kind of a spike syndrome-- but when he comes into a scene the scene suddenly seems relevant. if batman has taught us anything, it is that a multinational conspiracy of people making sweeping social judgments is scary, but one guy that you don't understand is way scarier.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 10:22 p.m. CST

    I may get reamed for this but...

    by thecomedian

    If they're gonna keep Ali Larter and her sweet ass on the show they really NEED TO BRING BACK NIKKI/JESSICA. I know everyone hated her but she had some cool moments in Season 1 and she's a hell of a lot more interesting than ice whore. Have her comeback and fight ice whore. That's good TV. Of course their probably just going to introduce the 3rd sister but I think it's pretty stupid to have these three clones walking around and never see them actually meet or fight. Actually it was idiot plotting to begin with since they established in Season 1 that there was a real Jessica who died and/or was raped and killed by Nikki's dad when they were 12 or something. They either totally retconned that out for this stupid triplets plot or they simply forgot because these idiots can't be bothered to study their own continuity. And while I'm on an Ali Larter rant, what's with the stupid NBC promos showing her levitating and that's not even one of her powers. If the third sister isn't a flying then Kring truly is a moron.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 10:34 p.m. CST

    Neither Ali Larter or Sylar have any purpose

    by reflecto

    Sylar should have died in Season 1 as planned. Everything with him (and her) since has been sad and pathetic. In fact the whole show is pathetic, generally, and has been since Day 1.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 10:35 p.m. CST

    Are you aware you are talking about a dead show walking?

    by :-o

    I do not want to hear anyone complain how this show was yanked too suddenly or too poorly in early 09. Not one person. In two years you will remember yourselves talking about the lame, unfinished show we won't even remember what as called. Really. How many posts above are dedicated to explaining or complaining about storylines that meant nothing. Its beneath us to even complain about this farcical show.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 11:05 p.m. CST

    Herc...THANK YOU

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    All I said after he slit the throat was..."FINISH THAT MOTHERFUCKER STUPID!!!" And of course, he played like an unintelligent super-secret company mane that cannot finish like Peter North does.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 11:07 p.m. CST

    End the suffering

    by White Goodman

    Just kill this show already. End it for the love of God.

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 11:08 p.m. CST

    MurderMostFowl

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    I said the same shit. I was like portals, if he could control it, ppl could wind up on other sides of the earth. maybe he didnt kill his family. BTW, I could not finish that fucking game. got to the long elevated platform stage and got my eyeballs fucked. (not by avatar or leno tho) yet....

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 11:10 p.m. CST

    Sylars hair

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    I told 3 chicks that I am going to do my style like Sylar. And They said hot. I've already banged all 3. but hey guys. Fuck it. Sylars hair fucks eyeballs. (and vaginas)

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 11:13 p.m. CST

    wixmmm= LINE BREAKS

    by ToughGuyRizzo

    DICK. Nobodys gonna read that shit. nvsb and a & or something

  • Dec. 11, 2008, 11:43 p.m. CST

    Sylvar elevator scene

    by fzammetti

    That scene last week with Sylar in the elevator... that pretty much saved this season for me. It really made it worth watching all this time. Sylar is, without a doubt in my mind, the best thing about this show, so all the people saying let him die, no f'ing way. The big payoff I can't wait to see is the all-out battle between Sylar and Peter that's GOT to happen at some point.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 1:17 a.m. CST

    I feel so free

    by G8kpr

    After Sylar Killed Elle, I was done with this show. I proclaimed it to everyone, I deleted it off my DVR, and you know what. I feel free, relaxed <p> A co-worker told me a bit about the latest episode, and i said FUCK, I'm so glad I'm not watching this shit anymore. For anyone who is sittng on the fence, like I was for the past 5 episodes. I suggest you bail, just leave the show. I hope this show gets cancelled, because it's just so f'ed up, it's not even funny. <p> Those that love the show.. well, whatever, someone out there still watches According to Jim too. So whatever..

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 1:23 a.m. CST

    How come nobody's bitching about...

    by cohjam

    ...how Sylar, right after his latest switch back to power hungry murderer and saying that he wouldn't hurt Peter because he "doesn't have anything [he] wants", WALKED AWAY from Old Man Patrelli AND the Haitian without taking their powers? He'd be ridiculously powerful if he took either, but both were RIGHT THERE for the taking! And why did he look at Elle's brain? He already got her power and private lessons from her on how to use it... Elevator was pretty sweet though.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 1:40 a.m. CST

    When this first started....

    by gotilk

    .. the sense I got from the pilot was that we were going to get a show that was like a TV series version of Unbreakable. How a real superhero-type could emerge, in the real world. I think in some way why it failed is the same reason why so many shows frustrate us, but in reverse. A lot of shows drive us nuts when the story unfolds too slowly, but we still watch because the story and the characters are compelling. <br> <br> Do any of you remember Kring making comments about how Lost never answered any questions? (or something to that effect?) Well, not his show. They tried to answer everything far too quickly and in a sense I think they "blew their load", while Lost was more like a careful, observant, giving lover. They listened to their audience, while it seems Heroes' producer listened more to Lost's audience. In a sense. We may know what we want RIGHT now, but we may not always know what we want in the long run. And that's what TV shows (and in the end, WE) want.<br> <br> We've also heard stories about how the show was originally planned to move on from the characters we grew to love. Well, I get the sense that Kring had no idea that he had a hit on his hands and that the show would be so loved by so many in that fanboy way only we can. And I think he probably sensed the audience would feel betrayed if they moved on. Any time the endgame is "saving the world", you really are working up to a finale that is going to be bigger and better in the audience's imagination than anything a show can deliver. It may be that he was right in the first place. Sure, we would have missed Hiro. We would have missed Sylar, Mohinder (maybe not now) and everyone else. But maybe, just maybe they would have created new characters that would have been even more interesting. Look at Claude, the invisible man(Eccleston)... every time he showed up the show felt better than it had been before. Yet POOF.. he's gone. Sometimes it's better to trust your own instincts than to try to meet an audience's expectations. But not if it means you cannot recognize when people are not being honest with you. Audiences sometimes think they know what they want... answers NOW... resolution NOW... but if they really got them, there would be nothing left to bring them back. <br> <br> Lost seems to just balance on that high wire, always giving us just enough to keep us watching but never too much. Never all that we want. It's almost like a game of seduction, or the secret formula that keeps long marriages together. Perhaps that's where they should look for inspiration. How do you keep a love affair or a marriage working? Well, if you want it with with passion, you have to be sure that there's always something more to know about you. Always something you have not quite finished yet. It's the only way to keep things interesting. Lost has killed of characters that the audience DID like. We didn't like it always, but we moved on and most of us still loved the show. It's another balancing act of sorts to have the perfect mix of familiarity, comfort, newness and mystery. If this all sounds like a formula, well.. it IS a formula. To survive, a show must win in the ratings game. If you make a movie that a LOT of people love, the movie is still there. It fails or it succeeds, but it's there. It's done. With a show, it must be so difficult to maintain a sense of creating art when your main objective is winning a popularity contest. In any case, hats off to any show that tries. Most do not. We've been extremely lucky to have so many that have attempted to achieve something other than just ratings in the last few years. I certainly do not have the answers, but a lot of us seem to think we do. And a lot of ideas I've read here and in other talkbacks have been really good. But maybe some of you are right. Maybe it can't be saved. Another complete overhaul and reboot would seem desperate unless it blew our minds. Pretty much any major changes will feel like that if they are not gradual. I think Fuller may actually be on the right track. Less a reboot and more like having the characters almost do what the show itself needs to do. Stop, develop ITSELF and then come back to us, it's lovers... interesting and mysterious. Fresh but familiar. And if he's really sharp, maybe call Whedon and ask which beloved character he should kill off in the next few episodes to motivate and change the other characters so that the next time they do something surprising, we might have some tiny clue as to why.<br> <br> I've rambled enough for one night.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 2:08 a.m. CST

    I heavily doubt it'll get renewed for 4

    by critch

    Ratings are sinking like a stone. It's the most expensive show they have. And it's critically panned. If they're saving money by putting Leno on, there's no way they're going to spend 4mil an episode for a loser.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 3:09 a.m. CST

    critch

    by BadMrWonka

    it'll get renewed. it still sells DVD's like crazy, and the ratings are still all over the map because of how many people TIVO or DVR it. it'll pick up a little in the last couple weeks, and definitely get renewed for a 4th season.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 4:37 a.m. CST

    This show's writing is even worse than Smallville

    by Yeti

    When it comes to charecters doing/saying things that make no sense based on their past behavior etc. Oh well.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 4:56 a.m. CST

    ALSO: NOT CANCELED ENOUGH.

    by alice 13

    dont tell the audience whats wrong with your own fuckin show. its not my fault i dont watch it.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 6:14 a.m. CST

    RICK ASTLEY FOR UK XMAS #1

    by elbowburger

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  • Dec. 12, 2008, 6:14 a.m. CST

    Matt's whiny, no good cheating wife is coming back?

    by The McPoyle Clan

    That means Parkman is still around, and that's not a promising sign. And to try to answer Raymar's question -- Chuck was revived before she was even buried, so she's still fresh and minty. Charles Charles had been rotting in the ground for <years><days><minutes> before he was revived. Liked the shout out they gave to Olive's pillows this week.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 7:27 a.m. CST

    Peter's Powers...

    by Judge Briggs

    So gay they keep taking them away... he's the one hero on the show with lots of power and yet always loses the power... it's getting old ppl.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 8:23 a.m. CST

    Arthur Petrelli...

    by turketron

    What in the FUCK was his true motivation? HOW did he know to go to that exact moment and location in time to get the catalyst from Hiro? WHY hasn't he been using time travel ever since he got the power from Peter? WHY do Pinehearst and The Company seemingly have ZERO security? Seems like anyone can just waltz in and out of those places. They should have taken security lessons from Wolfram and Hart. WHY did the whole "butterfly effect" get conveniently forgotten about? Woohaaa, lets have Hiro and Claire go 16 years into the past and interact with their past selves!!! Hiro should have been MIND-FUCKED when he was there with his past self. This is GAY.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 8:47 a.m. CST

    I think last episode was strong.

    by MrFloppy

    But the damage is already done. Heroes needs a remake from season 1 ending.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 8:53 a.m. CST

    Waste of talent.

    by HoboCode

    Get out Fuller.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 8:55 a.m. CST

    As a notorious Heroes "hater"...

    by HoboCode

    I have to admit the last episdoe was probably the best episdoe of the entire series to date. I actually got misty-eyed when Hiro's mom died. That's the human face Fulelr is talking about and what definitely can make the show better. But I'm still just watching until something better in the timeslot comes along.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 9:50 a.m. CST

    Heroes needs time travel to fix the show!

    by Ninja Nerd

    I think I was done with Heroes when the battle at Kirby Plaza turned out to be basically nothing. Fuller needs to go back in time to the writer's table BEFORE the end of Season 1 and come up with something EPIC we'd still be talking about, not the weak-ass thing it actually is. Everything since has been stupidly bad. Kring is a flaming idiot...and his little dog, too!

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 10:15 a.m. CST

    cohjam... Sylar and the Hatian

    by MurderMostFowl

    It's wishfull thinking, but I always assumed that if Sylar were to absorb Tha Hatian's powers it would nullify his other powers. <BR> I can't believe that Sylar didn't take Arthur's powers. That was lame. The writers should have had some other reason why Sylar couldn't take the powers ( I don't mean a techincal reason, but a situational one ) <BR>

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 10:19 a.m. CST

    Lack of Fear

    by MurderMostFowl

    I realized that part of the show that doesn't work anymore is that there is no more "fear" of anyone. In the first season we genuinely fear Sylar, and characters like the hatian. Now the Hatian is a tool only ( I mean an actual tool... he's paraded around to "use" ) and Sylar is... well... random.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 10:47 a.m. CST

    This is why the show can't be saved

    by ArcadianDS

    The first season was all about mystery - we weren't even sure what these powers were, who had them, why they had them. Peter was jumping off buildings because he was sure his brother could fly - and sure enough he survived, but did we just see someone fly, or not? Was it his brother - can PETER fly? - it was all so different and strange. We were discovering things right there along with the heroes themselves. The Japanese kid sees himself in a comic. WAT?! How can that be? Dang, show's over - have to wait till next week!<p> By the end of the 1st season, we knew pretty much everything. The ending was bittersweet and if the show ended right there, it would have been a great great made-for-tv mini-series movie event. But they had nowhere left to go. The original white paper called for a revolving door of heroes. They introduced new ones, but failed to revolve out old ones. By the time they realized the old ones sucked, they were cornered - they had to reverse course and send the new ones back and then script silly upon silly upon silly explanations for why all these seemingly dead and/or 'moved on' heroes were now back.<p> The 'hook' of the show was Sylar - for a while, we thought it was Claire's dad. Was he helping her? Was he watching her? Was he going to eat his own daughter's brain? The transformation from good guy to bad guy seemingly within every single scene was simply riveting. Then Ando from the future - holy cow was he cool or what? He was awesome. Save the cheerleader. Fantastic, but save her from who? Her DAD? Some mysterious villian who eats brains (we assume. We didn't KNOW what he was doing. People were dead, and their skull cavities were hollowed out. WTH!?)<p> about halfway into the 3rd episode of season two, we figure out that Ando's ancient patriarch is actually the mega-villain killing the League of Super Parents At Law, one by one. Once we blew that one wide open, they scrambled for a new 'hook' - and instead they used white-out on portions of Season 1 and rewrote it for season two - Save the Irish Lass, save the future, amirite?<p> only we didn't save her - we just sort of whisked her off to...well, nobody really cares. Officially, she's not being revisited. That's the producer's way of saying, "we fired that guy and have not a god damned clue what he was trying to do there. Moving on."<p> The only way to save the show is to shut it down after season 3, and then next season you do a 24 - you make it 3 years later, and but for one or two people, you completely re-write and re-cast the entire series.<p> The nawlins kids had potential. She was a hero, but was flawed. She made mistakes and people got hurt - that's what this show needs - it needs that guy from Unbreakable who doesn't quite understand, and is actually a little afraid of his powers. Who realizes that despite his powers, he's not God, and he cannot save everyone. He's forced to choose between who is saved and who is not saved, and then lives with the ghosts of those choices.<p> The show is crammed full of invincible titans from Mount Olympus, and suffers from the same failure that made me turn my back on hero comic books in the first place: its boring when every edition shows a bare knuckle brawl between super dude and arch enemy dude that ends with both of them black-eyed, cheek-scratched, arms dragging in exhaustion like a gorilla in yet another stalemate of cosmic proportions. *fake applause* yeah thats some gripping edge-of-your-seat action right there, ain't it?<p> Keep Sylar. Keep Ando. Keep Daddy. Keep Claire. Bring back super-samauri (he's alive in Ando's father's crypt, amirite?) and make him go through the same 'good or bad?' that Daddy McHornrims went through in season 1. Recast everything else. Show fixed.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 10:55 a.m. CST

    Arcadian

    by DisneyFanatic

    A. It's Hiro, not Ando.<p> B. They brought back Adam only to kill him an episode later.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 11:47 a.m. CST

    I liked this weeks episode... until...

    by The_joker

    Arthur Petrelli showed up in the past. What the hell?! Did he really need to wait until Hiro got the catalyst to show up and take his powers? Oh wait, Hiro was just about to become something more than a bumbling idiot and we wouldn't want that.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 11:55 a.m. CST

    Lol yeah... "super samurai"

    by turketron

    Dead and gone like he looked into the Ark of the Covenant or drank from the wrong Holy Grail. what is happ....ening to me ah ah ah...<p><p>

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 12:04 p.m. CST

    A guy

    by NudeandAroused

    Ok, a guy, I swear it isn't me, at my work wanted me to ask me this question. Because of her healing powers, does that mean Claire will always be a virgin?

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 12:19 p.m. CST

    NudeandAroused

    by DisneyFanatic

    What a very fitting subject from that username...<p> The answer is yes: Claire will always be a virgin.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 12:34 p.m. CST

    What a fucking hilarious bunch of writers

    by theycallmemrglass

    But I have to say, Bryan Fuller seems to get it. He's pretty much hit the nail with whats wrong with Heroes and what it lacks. Thing is, those problems are fucking deep cut leaving permanent fucking scars. Good luck t Fuller though, I hope he and the team can pull off a miracle. My fingers are crossed because depsite all feelings, I want to like Heroes again as much as I did in the first season.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Where. Is. Copycat?!

    by wowsah156

    What happened to Copycat? Is she still cooped up with those gangbangers who were going to kill her?

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 12:47 p.m. CST

    Sylar worked fantastically

    by smackfu

    as 'good guy' Sylar. Because it was painfully obvious that his 'goodness' was entirely driven by his ego. For once it actually added complexity and interest to his character, but these schizophrenic ADD writers had to reverse him back to a 1-dimensional bad guy again. Reform Sylar for good, for once he was actually a sincerely interesting character when he was trying to play the role of a good guy.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 1:04 p.m. CST

    Yeah, I'd rather Monica and Micah than Ali Larter

    by _Maltheus_

    <p>They need to kill off the boring characters (ex, Larter, Mohinder, virus chick, etc) but instead they've been killing off the interesting ones like Elle and Adam (although, considering his blood is able to heal others, I was fine with it). Parkman is salvageable if they go back to drifting him down the dark side. His power is inherently evil and he should be struggling with it at all times.</p> <p>The heroes also need to start proactively planning their lives, rather than simply reacting to events, wishing they were normal. I think Fuller is great, but (assuming he gets his powers back) Peter going back to being a paramedic is retarded. No real person would do that and no viewer wants to watch that. Sure, bring back the human element, but leave us with the wonder and vicarious living.</p>

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 1:07 p.m. CST

    wowsah156

    by BadMrWonka

    Sylar killed Copycat. after she helped him recuperate. remember, she made him think he was on some beautiful island, but really it was a smelly shack, he realized after he killed her and it reverted back. and she was fat. remember?

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 1:12 p.m. CST

    "too dense" and "fell into scifi trappings" are...

    by chromedome

    ... euphemisms for Shitty Writing. He isn't saying The Writing SUCKED because he is going to be working with some of those same people.<p>What is really questionable in his quote, however, is when he says the other writers "already" know what is wrong.... Hard to believe that bit at all.<p>Hope he can make the needed fixes, but it is damaged, taking on water fast, and listing heavily to starboard.... It may just be too late, and the thing will go down by the stern.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 1:30 p.m. CST

    re: wowsah156

    by _Maltheus_

    Copycat was Micah's cousin Monica.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 1:30 p.m. CST

    I meant re: BadMrWonka not wowsah156

    by _Maltheus_

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 6:21 p.m. CST

    Smackfu

    by DisneyFanatic

    Brilliantly put. Gabriel was fun to watch, as it was easily apparent that this was a bad guy who has realized that he could be doing stuff to better the world. And I enjoyed the hell out of him reacting with his former enemies (Peter, Claire, Noah).

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 6:41 p.m. CST

    The Hot Fudge Sundae Of TV...

    by Colegegraduit

    Imagine if a kid’s sundae was almost completely melted. What do you do? Well, his mom might say, “Don’t worry dinner is in three hours,” or grandma might say, “What that boy needs is some nice broccoli.” All the kid ever wanted was a *sundae*. Is the solution so complicated? Go to the freezer and scoop up two fresh scoops of ice cream. Problem solved. My point is: this series doesn’t need to be rewritten to be some sort of café-philosophical, intellectual epic. No poetic irony; no Shakespearean scripts. Why did this “Villains” crap fail so horribly? Simple: the title of the series is H-E-R-O-E-S. Who gives two fat frog farts about the damned villains? It’s a series about heroes, watched by lovers of heroes. This was hardly rocket science. Sure, you need villainy for the heroes to defeat, though what schmuck thought these villains’ personal stories could keep a half-season afloat, all on their own? The only good part of this season was the (brief) moment Sylar considered being a hero. THAT should tell the writers something, about what the fans of this show want. It’s in the title: HEROES. Not “Dumb Lame Idiotic Villains That Would Only Scare The Three Stooges While Totally High After a Rancid Margarine Trip.” Mister Fear Guy is the lamest villain of all time. “My muscles get weally weally big when you’re afwaid,” my ass! Where’s Indiana Jones when you need him, to shoot one bullet in this guy’s head from a hundred yards away? Then there’s Blue Fire Hands guy, who is supposedly way more exciting than season one’s red-fire-hands guy. Yet the saddest villain was Arthur Patrelli; just like Sylar, only he steals powers by…HUGS! Freaking…HUGS!!! Sure, okay; the way he could’ve healed himself with Adam’s blood and instead decided to suck the life out from him…? That was pretty bad ass, though everything since has been incredibly boring. Everyone was waiting and waiting (and waiting and waiting and waiting) for the “big reveal” as to what Arthur Patrelli had planned. Apparently, his only plan was to market super power energy pills; you know, like the Underdog cartoons. Gee. Scary. Let me tell you; my 12 year old nephew actually searched Youtube for the word “boogers” one day, and the result was scarier than anything this “villains” story arc ever offered. So this villains story is ending in one episode? GREAT. Let’s hope the writer for the next story remembers what the title of the series is. As soon as they return to stories about heroes, everything is fine. I won’t hold my breath though.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 6:52 p.m. CST

    by wixmmm

    well put

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 10:45 p.m. CST

    A very important question

    by MangoKid

    Perhaps its been brought up before but I have yet to read the post. Why the hell did peter need to have Sylars ability? The whole point of him in the future was to get Sylars power of understanding. move foward 2 or 3 episodes later and oops no more powers Peter. As i've stated before, every week i wanna turn it off but every week i hope just a little more.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 10:51 p.m. CST

    MangoKid

    by DisneyFanatic

    That was one of the reasons why I came to the conclusion that these writers are just making it up as they go along.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 11:44 p.m. CST

    NudeandAroused.... and...

    by MurderMostFowl

    She can't pierce her ears.

  • Dec. 12, 2008, 11:56 p.m. CST

    the_joker.... maybe Hiro's mom is more powerful than we think

    by MurderMostFowl

    I'm guessing Arthur needed Hiro to get the Catalyst from his mom because she would never give it up voluntarily. We have a vague implication that she is not anything like anyone else.... perhaps she's an alien or some other naturally "super" being. Perhaps she would have been able to defeat Arthur and he tries the trickery route instead. <BR><BR> That seems to work nicely... sad part is that I made that up in 5 minutes and I guarantee the writers didn't spend that much time workout out that plot point.

  • Dec. 13, 2008, 10:34 a.m. CST

    cooper2000

    by weebay

    Man you are so right! I'm thinking about not watching the show anymore if Syler continues to be on it.

  • Dec. 13, 2008, 5:09 p.m. CST

    how lunkheaded?

    by ironic_name

    mohinder is cured then starts showing symptoms so he goes back and stands a foot away from a guy who could absorb his bug symptoms by touching his hand. meanwhile a guy who thinks he can't be hurt doesn't know hes vulnarable. tell him to prove himself by shooting himself in the head. two problems gone in minutes.

  • Dec. 13, 2008, 7:33 p.m. CST

    Arthur Can't be Dead

    by Oldnewbie

    Cause he absorbed Adam who couldn't die; so I assume unless they are going to ignore that bit of show lore... which wouldn't be out of character... he'll be soon getting up of the office floor.

  • Dec. 13, 2008, 7:34 p.m. CST

    This is what they've been doing on Heroes

    by AnnoyYou

    "I'm good, I'm evil, whoops - good again! I'm in the past, no - in the future, NO - in the past! I've lost my powers, now I've regained them - nope, lost 'em again!" And so on. They have also ripped off every genre/sci-fi trope/motif/plot point KNOWN TO MAN (or the X-Men). Now I expect Bryan Fuller will bring on Kristin Chenoweth, who, let's face it, fixes everything, what with the cuteness and the singing. Just song long as the only person he imports from Wonderfalls is Lee Pace, it's all good.

  • Dec. 13, 2008, 9:37 p.m. CST

    Colegegraduit

    by Sidepocket

    Villains are needed. This show would have not been that good in the fist place is Sylar and Ted were not pushing and foil the characters to show us why they are needed and special. One of the many problem with Villains is that the name was VILLAINS! So what they should have done is made people who were more powerful and worse off psychologically than Sylar. Like what HRG originally said: If let free they would cause untold destruction and engulf the earth into it's end times. We got none of that. Instead we got some overly-powerful megalomaniac father that was not needed and no motivation, most of the villains dead, and they were quite pathetic too. They get out and what do they do? Rob a bank. They were in like 3 episodes. WTF?

  • Er, don't "Heroes" do heroic things like saving the public's lives? Other than Claire running into that fire, Parkman as a cop and I suppose Copycat I can't remember anybody doing anything conventionally heroic other than being tangled up in convoluted plots to save the world? Fuller's right to pare everything back. Individual members of the public's lives who can die (and will REMAIN dead!) should be used as more of a plot device as leverage between "heroes" and "villains" a la Superman.

  • Dec. 14, 2008, 2 p.m. CST

    The invisible man

    by ThrowMeTheIdol

    Was my favorite character. When he disappeared so did a lot of my interest.

  • Dec. 14, 2008, 10:25 p.m. CST

    So, the Pie-Maker has a Power--can cross over from

    by chromedome

    PD to Heroes....<p>and, c'mon, who Doesn't like pie...?<p>And Anna Friel could come over, too, she fits the Alive-No, Dead--No, Wait, Alive Again mold that is the essence of Heroes.<p>Since we don't have anyone left to do the comic books, Emerson Cod could come over and due future-predicting pop-up books....<p>Fuller, I will email you my address for the royalty check!!

  • Dec. 15, 2008, 2:01 p.m. CST

    Elbowburger...

    by DuncanDisorderly

    Please stick your Rick Astley campaign up your arse! Now would you be so kind as to fuck off?