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AICN COMICS REVIEWS BATMAN R.I.P.! HULK! GANTZ MANGA! NORTHLANDERS! + MUCH MORE!
| #29 | 11/26/08 | #7 |
(Click title to go directly to the review)
An @$$Hole 2 in 1 Review of BATMAN #681
HULK #8
NORTHLANDERS #12
CROGAN’S VENGEANCE HC OGN
SUPERMAN #682
SHAKARA: THE AVENGER TPB
Big Eyes For the Cape Guy presents GANTZ VOL 2
CHEAP SHOTS!
An @$$Hole 2 in 1 Review
BATMAN #681
Writer: Grant Morrison
Art: Tony Daniel (pencils), Sandu Florea (inks)
Publisher: DC Comics
Reviewers In Plural: Stones Throw & Ambush Bug
STONES THROW (STONE): It’s over! And a helicopter exploding with Batman on it is the big conclusion?
AMBUSH BUG (BUG): Yeah, we waited all this time for this?!? I've been trying to keep mum about this book and do what a lot of people suggest and wait till the end to judge, because Morrison is a writer whose work is best read as a whole. Well, I read the whole thing and I have to say that I'm disappointed.
STONE: I think DC has to bear some of the blame for trying to turn the story into some kind of reprisal of the DEATH OF SUPERMAN, which it patently wasn’t. It’s not even clear if Batman is dead by the end. I can only imagine what the poor schmuck who read one of the mainstream media articles about the storyline and decided to take a look thought.
BUG: But there were a lot of things to like about this book, especially this issue in particular, that were enjoyable to read despite the shitty "death scene". Every scene with the Joker in this one was pretty damn perfect. I loved the way Morrison reversed the role of the Joker and almost made him an ally in this one. OK, maybe ally is too strong a word. The Joker was more like a cheerleader, rooting for Batman in order to make the Black Glove crazy and scared.
STONE: There were parts I enjoyed throughout. The KILL BILL VOL 2-style poisoned chai scene in this issue, for example. I find that the more I read outside of the books themselves (like this cool web page about the stories that inspired Morrison), the more I’m intrigued by his ideas. But, honestly, the comics themselves did not read well.
BUG: The thing that bothers me is that the Batman Family just accepts this fate. They've seen a million villains seemingly perish in the same way. Why would they immediately assume he's dead this time? Does Morrison really think that they (and us as the audience) are so stupid?
STONE: Yeah, that shot of Nightwing holding the cape and cowl made me laugh because it seemed like it belonged in a different comic altogether. Not exactly a noble reaction to seeing your adoptive father and mentor figure get blown up. It seems like Morrison had his story, which got hijacked by DC simply by way of its title. Now we’re getting a Judd Winick-written “Battle for the Cowl” coming up and who knows if Morrison will return.I think the other element in this is the art. I look at what Morrison’s doing on ALL STAR SUPERMAN and FINAL CRISIS, which whatever you think of it at least has a fairly strong and simple through line of a story, and then the last few months of BATMAN, which have often been a struggle to comprehend. Tony Daniel hasn’t helped this book. Take Morrison writing in such an eccentric style and add that sketchy, early Image style of drawing and it’s kind of like trying to translate the Dead Sea Scrolls when the guy who wrote them in the first place had poor handwriting.
BUG: Tony Daniel isn't awful. He is just ill-fitting to this story. And you're right, in the hands of an artist that is able to handle the subtle yet often obtuse writing style of Morrison, this would be a far superior read. I mean, this is supposed to be a pretty important story. What was DC thinking assigning Daniel's early BRIGADE style art to this book? When you think of big Batman stories, there have always been very talented artists accompanying them. Brian Bolland, Tim Sale, Jim Lee, Frank Miller, David Mazzucchelli, even Norm Breyfogle, Neal Adams, Jim Aparo...all of these guys have contributed to huge Batman stories--stories that wouldn't be the same without their stellar pencils. Daniel is just out of his league here. I'm sure the guy has a big future in comics, but when there are multiple instances where I feel as if a panel (if not a whole page) got lost on the way to the printer, there's a problem.
STONE: I’d have liked to see what Andy Kubert or JH Williams III would have made of it. Tony Daniel isn’t terrible, but with one of those guys the art would have had its own appeal, whereas I don’t think Daniel helped the book too much. But for all RIP was sold as an “important” story, in the end it turned out to be a fairly routine Batman tale. A sinister group tries to destroy Bruce and find out he’s really pretty tough. The one thing Morrison added is working in the 1950s and ’60s continuity. And a lot of annoying dialogue where it seems like every other line had to spell out what’s going on because nothing else did a good enough job. Maybe with the DARK KNIGHT being about the biggest thing until MAMMA MIA! some more “traditional” Joker or Two-Face stories would have been better.BUG: Morrison is always experimenting with new ways to convey a story. Some are decent. Some, not so much. I can admire the guy for bringing back kooky concepts like the Rainbow Batman personality and things like that, but once again I think Morrison is guilty of having a ton of ideas and not much of a care for how to put those ideas together to make an interesting story. It's like he went down a checklist of stuff he'd like to see without really giving much thought as to how to make it work. Man-Bat ninjas? Check. Rainbow Batman? Check. Hunchback? Check. Black Glove? Check. Joker rambling discourse? Check. Oh yeah, I forgot, I promised some kind of death scene. Let me toss something in there. How about a 'splosion? The fanboys love those.
STONE: OK, count me as a Man-Bat ninja fan. That issue where they attacked the pop art gallery shows what an artist like Kubert brought to the title. The Zur-En-Arrh reveal I felt didn’t work since it was Morrison who reintroduced the phrase in the first place. So that last scene where he reveals the hidden meaning fell flat because he could have fit a meaning to any nonsense phrase with the same impact. Same kind of thing with Jezebel Jet, who was a very flat character from the beginning. Morrison having Bruce address that problem by saying he knew she was a villain all along doesn’t really solve it because he expected us readers to sit through the mystery.
BUG: The issue skids to a halt numerous times for Morrison to explain stuff he's been doing for the last five or so issues. We get a Zur-En-Arrh explanation, an unneeded explanation of how Batman gets out of a coffin, then the worst of the worst of clichés when the Black Glove tries to earn geek cred by proving he's a big fan of EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. If a page of exposition is necessary for the reader to understand what's going on, then the comic book writer is not doing his job.STONE: You know one thing that might have made the series a fuller read? A collection of “The Stories Behind R.I.P.”. Or at least some old-school caption boxes referencing the issues where Morrison got stuff like the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh and the three replacement Batmen from. The way the story was written really took it for granted that the readers would have the same reference points as Morrison, but when few people are familiar with those old stories it’s not surprising so many were baffled.
BUG: For someone who is known as one of modern comics’ greats, there is an awful lot of amateur obviousness going on in Morrison's writing. It seems as if every writer today is tying to create a writing style that is as unique as the colorful characters they are writing. Like I said earlier, Morrison's strength and weakness is his obtuse writing style. It was obvious that Jezebel was going to be the bad guy. Making the Black Glove Bruce's father is about as hacky as you can get. Having a death scene that was so uninspired and clichéd...I was waiting for Morrison to wow me with these old comic book stand-bys, and instead he wrote straight from an Amateur Comics 101 textbook. Compared to past works, Grant was slumming it here. It’s like a modern magician doing a rabbit out of the hat trick. You’re expecting some new twist on a tired old illusion, then the magician just pulls the rabbit out of the hat and you’re like “uhm…yay?”
STONE: Anyway, who do you want to see take over as Batman?
BUG:I know the obvious choice is Dick Grayson. Hell, it practically says it in that pin-up shot you mentioned earlier, but I think I would be more interested if Jason Todd became Batman. Batman's always had issues. Dick has always been pretty steady and level headed. I think that's why he and his comic are so boring. An even-keel Batman is pretty bland. I like the idea of Tim Drake becoming Nightwing. And Jason and Damien would be a pretty interesting mix for Batman and Robin. I guess that leaves Dick to either be Red Robin or the group's gay butler. Which ain't gonna happen. Dick deserves it, but that story's already been told and makes all of those stories distinguishing Dick as his own man pretty futile.You?
STONE: I’m looking forward to Neil Gaiman’s two issues coming up, but I’m not sure how well anything is going to follow, seeing as how it seems most DC writers don’t have much of a clue what Morrison was getting at (including Dan DiDio, who kept saying “RIP could stand for a lot of things” in his promotion). I guess a more street-based, dirty-fighting Batman would be an interesting take if Jason Todd is the way they’re going to go. But this comic didn’t really leave me feeling it was time to move on from Bruce Wayne. A helicopter explosion and a “six months later” bit doesn’t really cut it as a conclusion, and it’s looking pretty shaky if Morrison will ever wrap up what he wanted to do. The one thing I think may be “Resting In Peace” for a while is the ultimate hard@$$ take on Batman that Morrison helped popularise in JLA, since he takes it to such a ridiculous extreme here. Constructing a backup personality isn’t something you can top easily.
BUG: Yeah, resting the DCU on Morrison's unstable shoulders was a huge blunder on DC's part. You don't let a wildcard like the Joker run the Secret Society of Super-Villains. You let him do what he does best and leave the leadership to the methodical thinking of Lex Luthor (AKA Geoff Johns). To hear that now, after sitting through R.I.P., we are being asked to wait and see the REAL final fate of Batman in an upcoming issue of FINAL CRISIS is enough to make me give up caring for good and cements it that Morrison really doesn't have a plan here as the apologetic fans would like to think. R.I.P. wasn't really a story at all, just a mystery grab bag of cool and stale ideas. Didio even toyed with the title, saying that it may not even mean Rest In Peace. So what the hell did it mean anyway?STONE: Umm…Re-reading Is Prerequisite?
Best I got.
BUG: So before we go, we haven't mentioned the Darth Vader thing. What do you think of the big reveal that Thomas Wayne is the big bad?
STONE: I’m not sure if it’s that simple. Apparently this all links in with Morrison’s earlier GOTHIC miniseries and that could actually be the Devil there (on a break from ruining Spider-Man’s marriage) trying to break Batman. Either way, I can’t see any changes to Thomas Wayne sticking. Stuff’s been done with the Waynes before but the purity of Batman’s origin always wins out. I have to say, it barely even struck me as a big reveal. I did recognize the bat-mask and suit as Thomas Wayne’s from a classic story I have seen but I think that’s more symptomatic of Morrison’s “throwing-shit-at-the-wall” approach on this book. I read that he changes his writing style depending on what he’s writing, and so BATMAN is written quickly and on the spur of the moment, while ALL STAR SUPERMAN is more measured, and I think it shows. Despite some cool ideas, this was pretty all over the place, and I guess I’m feeling pretty apathetic as to where it goes from here.
BUG: I agree. As much as Stan Lee tried to make stories that mattered with Spidey all those years ago, these days, there are so many writers trying to make their definitive, status quo shaking stamp on an icon that nothing sticks. Which kind of sucks. I wish writers would go back to writing strong stories instead of trying to make THE END ALL BE ALL BATMAN STORY THAT ROCKS YOUR SOCKS OFF AND PUT THEM BACK ON JUST TO ROCK THEM OFF AGAIN…FOR THE FINAL TIME, THIS TIME, I PROMISE. Take the Man-Bats vs Batman in the museum story, probably one of Morrison's strongest Batman single issue stories to date. It was just a fun story. And it will be remembered as one of the coolest ones. Morrison didn't have to revamp Martha Wayne as a chain smoking transvestite monkey-rapist or turn Alfred into a Swahili speaking octopus to make a good story. He just went with a single idea and wrote an exciting story around it. I wish more comics were like that one.
If the Black Glove is Thomas Wayne (and Morrison left it ambiguous as hell), then it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I mean, sure it opens up story potential, but if it's stories written by Bruce Jones or Judd Winick, I think the guy was better left dead. Morrison doesn't seem to have the attention span to stick through with one story. All he does is toss some imaginative balls in the air and leave them for lesser writers to juggle.Final thoughts on this book?
STONE: Final thoughts? Well, as much as Morrison had his usual imaginative balls (heh heh), I guess I have to ask myself the same question I did after finishing each installment. Ultimately, I don’t think it was a successful Batman story, and I don’t think it’s one I’d read again. I mean, I’m already struggling to think of a memorable cliff-hanger from any of the issues. It was just kind of a morass of scratchy art and non sequitur dialogue. It’s almost like it was a different writer from ALL STAR SUPES or FINAL CRISIS. Maybe Morrison had to have someplace to indulge his most madcap excesses.
BUG: Like any writer, Morrison is bound to pass some winners and some stinkers. Although I think it was admirable to homage some of the kookier stories of Batman past, I think if you’re going to do that, you have to ground it in some kind of reality. Under a better artist, during a time when there wasn’t so much instability in the DCU editorially, and if Morrison had kept a better schedule, this may have been an interesting experiment. But since we’re getting a healthy portion of the Grant who forgets how to end a story with the oft delayed FINAL CRISIS, 3D SUPERMAN (remember that?), and this story, I need a break from Morrison. He’s a bold idea man who needs someone to reel him in. This story is evidence of that. Although the final issue of RIP had moments of cool and fun, Morrison’s ideas crushed the feeble story structure he built around it.
STONE: Well, I guess that about wraps it up. But do we need a cool conclusion?
BUG: Why give this review a cool conclusion? The book didn't have one!
ZING!
Aaaaand we're done here.
HULK #8
Writer: Jeph Loeb
Artists: Arthur Adams, Frank Cho
Inkers: Walden Wong, Frank Cho
Publisher: Marvel Comics
Reviewer: Rock-Me Amodeo
The thing that occurred to me while reading this is: if I really wanted to buy a comic with great art and crappy writing, I would go collect all the back issues of ASBAR that I previously avoided. As it is, I’m stuck with two parts of two stories whose total value is much less than the sum of its parts.
The first story gives us a little bit of the Hulk, and adds a few heroes into the mix. Moon Knight and Sentry are there, and neither one seems crazy, which I actually appreciate. Joe Fixit is there…and then, inexplicably, he’s not. Why is that? Does it matter? I wish it did. And Ms. Marvel is there, too, which is always nice, but all these folks feel like the way Frank Tieri writes sometimes, like in GOTHAM UNDERGROUND: just a bunch of characters that the writer wants to play with, for no real reason other than the writer wants to play with them. I could be wrong, but they seem completely arbitrary.
I mean, if the end of this storyline requires a solution where we need a crescent shaped piece of metal, Ms. Marvel’s energy absorption powers, a dash of Sentry-vision (or whatever unique value Sentry brings to the table, I have yet to see any…ever…) and a situation where Hulk must allow Fixit to resurface…well, then, I’ll sit down to a bucket of crow. Because a solution like that actually requires these specific characters, and I’ll buy that. But if Loeb thinks he can make this a Marvel Powers Ratatouille (you know, a dash of this that and the other somehow magically comes together instead of tasting like a bunch of random crap), then I’m here to say, the main course better be worth the appetizers.
As far as the Rulk feature goes, it’s more of Frank Cho drawing bosomy, muscular women. Oh, and Rulk beats them all up. That about summarizes it, I think. Why are they fighting? Does it matter? I wish it did.
And earnestly, I ALMOST get to a part in each story where I would like to see what happens next…but then it’s over. These short snippets of story would be great if this book were, say, a weekly like TRINITY (because we can clearly see how well the concept works there, nyuck, nyuck) but it’s not even that good.
Please, Mr. Loeb, two Hulks is fine with me. But can we have ONE story…one that seems to be planned out? Actually, I’m pretty sure that both of these stories will end up in the same place as they conclude (and that would be cool and clever.) But in the meantime, the journey must be as satisfying as the payoff.
NORTHLANDERS #12
Writer: Brian Wood
Artist: Ryan Kelly
Publisher: DC Vertigo
Guest @$$Hole Reviewer: steverodgers
NORTHLANDERS #12 continues Brian Wood’s mud-level historical tour of all things Vikings. I read the first trade (only 10 bucks!), but decided to forgo the series; Vikings aren’t my thing. However, with this new arc, he has reunited with Ryan Kelly (his artist on LOCAL) so I had to give it another shot, if only to see how Kelly could go from drawing a sweet, 12-issue emo-tour of modern America to pillaging blood-thirsty Vikings running amok in 1000 A.D Ireland.
As much as I like the art and the story of NORTHLANDERS, I have to admit I was on Wikipedia for a good ½ hour like a college student just so I could figure out who the principals were, and I was still confused. The Viking conquest, and eventual assimilation into Irish culture, never came up in any of my history classes. That said, although I am missing the larger historical context of the book, I am happy to see Ryan Kelly’s depiction of Vikings getting punched, ran through with arrows, and sliced through the mouth with swords – it’s a lovingly illustrated bloodbath. In LOCAL, Kelly showed a capacity to depict some gore and creepiness, but in NORTHLANDERS he is really able to let fly and each violent encounter has an up-close, visceral punch.
Kelly’s characters all have a lived-in, un-showered ugly look to them, like the lumpy folks you might see drinking a 72-ounce coke at Six-Flags. I also can’t tell if it’s by design or if the colorist just thought the Irish and the Vikings must have looked like resplendent honkies back in those days, but everyone is colored white like resume paper and it sometimes makes it seem like you are reading a story about zombies, or maybe a community of albino Vikings.
Each arc of NORTHLANDERS centers on different characters and portions of Viking history. NORTHLANDERS #12 is essentially a Viking police procedural set in the days leading up to the Battle of Clontarf, on Good Friday in Ireland. We follow a Viking Detective Goren-type named Ragnar, who has been sent to track down an Irish insurgent, Magnus, and his daughter who are carrying out lethal attacks on the occupying forces all over the province. He is being considered a serial killer by the authorities, but we get to know him as a loving father who is fighting for his freedom. I’m assuming that we are rooting for Magnus and his daughter to escape capture, but it’s hard not to like the brutal and efficient Ragnar as he puzzles out crime scenes and pursues Magnus throughout the countryside.
Wood has ratcheted up the tension by the end of this issue. Mercenary Vikings are storming the beaches, armies are marching toward Clontarf and Magnus and his daughter are only a few steps ahead of Ragnar and his men. Although I am ignorant of much of the history, I am hooked all the same. If you like Vikings or detective stories, or just well-drawn scenes of blood and mayhem, you really can’t go wrong with NORTHLANDERS.
CROGAN’S VENGEANCE HC OGN
Chris Schweizer: Creator
Oni Press: Publisher
Vroom Socko:Old Sea Dog
If there’s been a better recent concept for a comic book series than this one, I haven’t seen it. Just looking inside the front cover put a smile on my face, and as I moved on to the actual story, that smile just kept getting wider and wider. What’s the wild, wondrous concept? It’s simply a father telling his young son about his family history. That history is laid out in the broadest of strokes on the aforementioned inside front cover with a family tree. That tree lists gunfighters, World War I pilots, brothers on opposite sides of the Revolutionary War, a private eye, an illusionist, a goddamn NINJA… Throw in a hardcover book design that evokes nothing less than the original Hardy Boys books and you have the recipe for one hell of a “Boys Own” adventure series.
As for the adventure to be had in this introductory volume, when in doubt, go with pirates.
The branch of the family tree examined here is “Catfoot” Crogan, an honest seaman who has a natural aptitude for a sailor’s life as well as a keen mind for strategy. When the ship he’s serving aboard is taken by pirates, he is absorbed into their crew and quickly earns the ire of First Mate D’or. Naturally, the two come to blows, with ever escalating stakes.
If all there was to this book was a rousing story, it’d be worth a read. What makes it a great read is creator Chris Schweizer’s fun as anything artwork. His cartoonish style has a great narrative flow, and his action is both clear and detailed. More than one page, hell, more than one panel had me drawn into the story better than most entire issues from other recent stories. There’s a panel of the ubiquitous stairway duel that was one of the best images I’ve seen in an age. It’s like reading Craig Thompson by way of Hergé.
What really impresses me, however, is the ambition inherent in the genealogy angle to this series. The promise of at least another dozen plus tales of the Crogan family is incredibly ambitious, and I hope like mad that this book sells enough for us to be able to see that ambition translated into reality, if only because I want to see Schweizer’s take on the Rough Riders. Should that not come to pass, at least we still have one hell of a great pirate story on our hands.
Click here to read a free sample at Onipress.com
Aaron “Vroom Socko” Button is alleged to be the descendant of pirates, but with his twisted family tree he can’t say for sure. He does have a fondness for Barbancourt rum, but then who wouldn’t?
SUPERMAN #682
Writer: James Robinson
Artist: Renato Guedes
Publisher: DC Comics
Reviewer: Optimous Douche
I know the term “zombie” is generally attributed to the blind followers of all things Marvel, but I’m of the mindset that DC fans can be counted amongst the slack-jawed fandom undead. Why? Because I am one, and this latest New Krypton crossover that is bleeding across all things Superman is proof of my DC logo shaped lobotomy scar (the old star one, not the DC/Nike swoosh).
I immediately dropped Superman proper after the first issue of Robinson’s “Atlas” run vowing not to return until a new writer took the helm. While I liked some of the concepts, like Superman playing fetch in space with Krypto, the characterization simply felt wrong (I never want to think of Superman with a boner). Even if I could get past my predispositions on the proper voice for the Big Blue Boy Scout, the endless panels with the “science cops” put the final nail in the coffin. Not only is the name void of any imagination, I read Superman to see Superman. If I wanted to watch a bunch of cops tricked out in high-tech gadgetry I would rent “Robocop”.
But as I said earlier, I’m a zombie. When the New Krypton story started with the delectable numbered shields on each cover, accompanied by my single favorite artist Alex Ross, I could not abate my insatiable hunger to follow each chapter. Yes, I traversed Supergirl for the first time and plunked down my shillings for the one-shot. It felt like the early 90s all over again, where as a hapless teenager I relied on those shield numbers to waft away the short term memory loss from my endless bong cloud and keep my proverbial continuity shit straight. This is the first time in a long while where there has not been a slew of disconnects or needless filling in a crossover. I’ve enjoyed every damn minute of Kandor’s giant size resurrection and their encroaching quest to take over our world. That is until this issue.
It’s not that this issue was bad, but like the last installment, the best word I can use to describe Robinson’s approach is sterile. Where Johns will bring rich characterization while moving the story forward, Robinson seems to simply transcribe events. Last issue we saw the resurrection of Doomsday, but not once did I yelp “holy shit, its Doomsday,” because I think I was simply numb by the time he arrived. Not disgusted, but numb.
This was a big issue, or should have been. For the first time the citizens of Kandor decide to bring Kryptonian justice to earth by locking away some of Superman’s lead foils in the Phantom Zone. Sadly, the abductions are hastily shoved into one page each. Prankster, Parasite and the rest barely get air time (Parasite simply stays locked in a box, never once oozing some of his sarcastic wit). Instead we are treated to several pages of The Guardian being turned down for a job, more time with my most hated law enforcement officials the science cops (seriously, please give them a new name like Beakers with Badges, Mr. Wizard’s Top Bitches, I’ll take anything at this point) and a lesson on morality when Kandor’s finest cream a few cops of science during the abductions. I’m not so staunch that I will say every minute of a Superman book must contain Superman for me to care, but the way this title was delivered I just didn’t have the face time or the desire to care about anyone. The only moment that felt truly real was when Superman confronts his Aunt and Uncle about the abductions and Aunt El ends up becoming a Nazi justice bitch on wheels. She was the only character that I felt transcended simply being a plot device to get us to the next chapter.
The rest of my disdain stems from Guedes’ art. Again, not bad, but it just leaves me cold and totally void of any feeling. Plus, I have one fanboy continuity nit. When the denizens of Kandor bust into Arkham there is a scene with Nightwing and Robin lying on the ground unconscious. I understand that their mortal abilities transcend the norm, but come on. There was nothing to stop Kandor’s forces from snapping the Bat Boys’ spindly little necks with one shot of super breath. This is a scene that just should not have been drawn.
When New Krypton is finally packaged in TPB format, these issues will simply serve as a brief respite between all the great storytelling goodness happening in the other titles. However, as I wait each week for new chapters to unfold, I don’t want a respite, I want to feeeellllll (and I’m not emo so I can’t cut myself)!
When Optimous Douche isn’t reading comics and misspelling the names of 80’s icons, he “transforms” into a corporate communications guru. Optimous is looking for artistry help, critical feedback and a little industry insight to get his original book AVERAGE JOE up, up and on the shelves. What if the entire world had super powers? Find out in the blog section of Optimous’ MySpace page to see some preview pages and leave comments.
SHAKARA: THE AVENGER TPB
Writer: Robbie Morrison
Art: Henry Flint
Publisher: 2000AD
Reviewer whose hips don’t lie: Ambush Bug
No, it’s not the story of the saucy Hispanic singer who shakes her ass like a Home Depot paint mixer. But I challenge anyone who reads this book not to walk around screaming SHAKARA to anyone who crosses your path. There’s something therapeutic saying that word in the face of opposition. Try it. You’ll see how fun it is. Next time your boss yells at you for spending too much time on that moobie site run by the fat guy, just shout SHAKARA in his face. It may not be a good career move, but I guarantee it’ll feel really good.
Although SHAKARA is at its core a revenge flick in comic book form, writer Robbie Morrison (co-creator of another 2000AD fave NIKOLAI DANTE and writer of many a JUDGE DREDD story) and artist Henry Flint do a fine job of setting up interesting and original fodder for Shakara to slice through. Somewhat formulaic, though interesting enough to sustain my interest from cover to cover, the trade paperback compiles three SHAKARA stories originally printed in 2000AD Magazine.
A huge part of what makes SHAKARA so great is Henry Flint’s electric artwork that never shies on fine details or vivid angles. Flint’s creature design is equally jaw-droppingly good as he makes sure to draw every alien unique, distinct, and anatomically functional.
The story focuses on the sole survivor of a race of formidable fighting machines who were so good at dealing death that they prevented chaos and terror from spreading through the galaxy. The Shakara were an honorable and moralistic race of few words and formidable action, so of course the race made some enemies. Story one sticks pretty close to revenge flick form, as the sole surviving Shakara makes mincemeat of bounty hunters, mad scientists, and evil telepaths. In story two, the baddies get smart and hire the deadliest assassin in the galaxy to take the mechanical menace out. But it’s the third story in this trade that really shines story-wise, as Morrison goes into the history of Shakara race and the motivations of the sole survivor. Morrison plays with the reader’s sense of right and wrong by making the Shakara ambiguous. Did they deserve to be wiped out? Did the cadre of bad guys do the galaxy a favor by taking out such a bloodthirsty and dangerous race? Is Shakara just as evil as the monsters he’s tracking down? There are no easy answers, just a bad ass robot-looking murder machine that says the word “Shakara” a lot. And that’s cool enough for me.
SHAKARA!
Ambush Bug is Mark L. Miller, reviewer and co-editor of AICN Comics for over seven years. Check out a five page preview of his short story published in MUSCLES & FIGHTS 3 (AVAILABLE NOW at Muscles & Fights.com.) on his ComicSpace page. There you can also see a five page preview of his short story in MUSCLES & FRIGHTS! Bug was recently interviewed here and here at Cream City Comics.
GANTZ Vol. 2
By Hiroya Oku
Released by Dark Horse Manga
Reviewer: Scott Green
While the character of the field qualifies this statement to some degree, I still feel comfortable saying that GANTZ is the nastiest manga in the North American market. (Yeah, I know how it compares to something like Shintaro Kago's work, but it's not like we're seeing much of that). Even if we did get more seinen manga, classic GO NAGAI works and so on; even if older males were still the prime audience for manga in North America, I still think GANTZ's pools of blood and bodies, cracked jaws, and severed limbs would stand out.
With frequent ventures into the alluring, seen in GANTZ's pin-up, fashion shot chapter-title card illustrations, his body of work and his SOUL CALIBUR IV design, no one is going to mistake Hiroya Oku for a manga Michael Haneke, but at the same time, he has a way of making GANTZ's world of defying death and hanging with busty girls fascinatingly unpleasant. In volume two of this cool, sexy wish fulfillment gone hideously ugly, the manga isn't driven by a concern as to whether the characters will live or die. Instead, it is intriguing to watch a manga get straight to the action, turn violent and do so without any accompanying sense of vindication. The spectacle of seeing extraordinarily bad things happen to unpleasant or mundanely bad people feeds into the uneasiness, piling up a morally and viscerally terrifying manga.
In Volume One, disaffected teen Kei Kurono ran into long separated childhood friend Kato just long enough for Kurono's noble minded peer to guilt him into leaping onto a subway track to help save a fallen homeless man. The good deed did not go unpunished, with a bit of body shattering rekishi - death by being run over, courtesy of an oncoming express. The pair was revived in an apartment that was barren except for a black sphere and populated by a pair of yakuza toughs, an unimpressive looking elementary school teacher, a dog, an old politician, a young male actor/model/whatever, an evil looking junior high aged kid and a naked young woman.
The surface of the sphere displayed a mug shot of an "onion alien" with the message "will all of you please go and finish off this guy," before opening up to offer racks of labeled suitcases and an arsenal of sci-fi guns. The confused crowd had a few minutes to gear up with weapons and black skintight outfits (in most cases, the latter option is forgone), before they were transported into a regular looking neighborhood.
After finding the childlike "onion alien," things took a turn for the gruesome. Most of the group seemed to think they stumbled into a well staged prank TV show, while Kato wept at his inability to stop the wrongs going on in front of him and the teacher openly questioned whether the group was being subjected to some sort of Eichmann Test.
As Volume Two opens, the blow back from the impromptu humanoid bug hunt has begun. A group of people who, for one reason or another, should have been dead were given video game weapons and put into a situation with a rightfully livid ogre. Objectively, it probably should not be surprising to find that the results encompass plenty of sundering, reaming and concaving, or that, as they say, the rain falls on the just and unjust alike.
As a fan of seeing what a clever manga creator with an eye towards grisly spectacle can do with the medium, I'm admittedly predisposed to liking GANTZ. I'm not necessarily an enthusiast of the live action gore flicks, but there's something about the twin challenges of conveying something convincing in an abstract form and contending with the possibility of the empty page that excites me about the artistry of violent manga.
GANTZ is serialized in prominent seinen anthology WEEKLY YOUNG JUMP, which is the new home to ROZEN MAIDEN (allegedly Prime Minister Taro Aso's favorite manga), and Takehiko Inoue's wheel chair basketball manga REAL. And it works from the foundations of what a seinen title needs to do to grab the attention of an audience that is comparable to the demographics of Spike TV.
Seinen series like GANTZ and BLADE OF THE IMMORTAL, as well as particularly violent, younger audience shonen (FIST OF THE NORTH STAR) have an interesting place in the North American manga scene. Many of the forerunners in the commercially released manga field came from these genres (in other words, the releases that hoped to attract buyers rather than introduce audiences to something significant, like the translations of BAREFOOT GEN or PHOENIX). However, the manga boom crowded these series into a niche. In summer 2008's top manga sales estimates, I'd only put 24 BERSERK and 50 GANTZ in this category.
As a manga that will startle any reader to attention, I can see why Entertainment Weekly gave GANTZ a positive nod. It's splattery teensploitation that holds up when compared to like in any medium. By the same token, I can see why GANTZ has not been a critical darling among manga commentators, as it's been slapped with some notable mild to negative marks.
On one hand, I have no hard evidence for the assertion that I'm about to make. On the other, given what's popular in other media (see the success of a SAW movie or a game like DEAD SPACE), there has to be a reason why seinen trails the manga charts. It's as if there's a separation between the interest and the product. Manga enthusiasts largely aren't seinen fans and the equivalent of seinen fans largely aren't manga buyers.
Here's what the manga fans who don't care for seinen and the seinen fans who don't buy manga are missing out on.
In setting an unimpressive selection of humanity loose with ray guns, then observing the pendulum swing of brutality, as the goons hurt others and in turn are themselves hurt, the manga starts looking like a metastasized case teenage angst and urges.
Oku knows that he's writing for an audience who is interested in seeing naked flesh and shattered bodies. Volume 2, doesn't have anything like volume one's "Naked Suicide Girl," in which a young woman is plucked from a bathtub wrist cutting, cleaned up, and laid out in her fleshy, naked state for 20-something pages. It does however take long looks at channels of digitally inked blood running over 3D models and it frequently tracks back to the scene of the crime for another look at the piled carnage. One of the inherit strengths of manga is its ability to close in on one image and allow the viewer to stare at this instant without derailing the moving narrative. GANTZ's large panels suggest rapid reading, but then it takes unflinching gapes at snap-sudden grievous consequences.
This crystallized view of what's happening, cemented by mundane backgrounds and attention to realism in the rendering of people and places, is at odds with the subjective experience. The characters can't mentally reconcile how much trouble they're in. They keep drifting into the notion that they're part of a TV show, or they're screaming in frustration, trying to coax a gentler resolution to their predicament. The manga works to suggest a video game metaphor for what's going on, and consequently, applying a harmless framework for a severe conflict becomes easy. Meanwhile, we see characters graphically die in unenviable, non-heroic fashion. They might not have been the world's most noble people, but seeing it happen provokes some of the same feelings of frustration and rage that they express.
Personally, I loathe a story that both criticizes and indulges in excess. It would be one thing if GANTZ tut-tut-ed the attitudes to which it appeals. Similarly, I'm inclined to think that GANTZ would not work as a straight satire. What it does do, which I'm a fan of, is allow itself to get wound up and self-aggravated. Near the end of Volume Two, the black sphere sizes up the recent combatants with the kind of juvenile note book scrawl that a middle schooler would dedicate to a disliked classmate. This ability of the manga to jeer at itself might be the right attitude for a story that both plays to and rolls its eyes at prurient interests.
The first pages of the manga features Kurono standing on a subway platform, thumbing through the bikini photos in a Jump magazine (the one that prints GANTZ) while glancing from the mag to critically size up the people around him. "I may look stupid...but to tell the truth, I know I'm better than everyone else in the world." This sullen, egotistical teen contrasts the Kurono that Kato remembers from their childhood, who was brave, clever and noble, capable of thwarting bullies and scraping through unthinkable stunts. Given a super suit, and the instincts to be the only one in the group to put the thing on in the apartment staging area, Kurono is given a unique opportunity to impress the girl and demonstrate that he actually is better than ugly, unthinking world around him.
Assessing GANTZ via the criteria that Kurono sets for himself in that opening monolog can be provocative. He isn't exactly proven wrong. After a fashion, he does look brighter than the masses. Beyond that, his wishes are fulfilled. Then again, so much ends in disaster or near disaster, and so much is agony that the character has tears streaming down his face, and the vicarious reaction is teeth gritting frustration or a pained grimace.
There's a discussion among commentators as to whether watching horror is an act of sadism or masochism. The pleasure of GANTZ would suggest the latter. It's a compelling manga driven by its horrific violence, but it's working towards more than just something to gape at. Despite the fact that it's offering the spectacle of not-so-good people taking their lumps, it's more queasiness inducing than exhilarating.
By no means is GANTZ an entirely airtight, cerebral work. These first two volumes make up an introductory phase of the manga. As such, I can't really say if they're developing a well considered statement or laying out disconnected, but provocative ideas. I can say that I'm not wow'ed by how it’s establishing its plot mysteries. A particularly irksome bit is dropped in at the end of the volume to explain some of the core sci-fi conceits. An admitted liar gives the survivors of the "Onion Alien" a few answers to their questions, mostly in the form of theories. Other than the "I'm an alien" outright BS, the manga hasn't really offered enough evidence to filter the information from the misinformation. Beyond that, if the "theory" is in fact a theory, having a character intuit vital information seems like a cheat.
I don't want to oversell GANTZ, but its first two volumes do showcase the kind of incendiary, violent material that makes seinen an exciting segment of manga. Between this, BLADE OF THE IMMORTAL, MPD PSYCHO, KUROSAGI CORPSE DELIVERY SERVICE and so on, Dark Horse is putting out a number of releases that should keenly interest Ain't It Cool News Readers.
Scott Green has been writing for AICN ANIME for close to seven years. If you like what you see here and love anime & manga, be sure to check out his latest AICN ANIME column here.
WELCOME TO HOXFORD #4
IDW Publishing
Ben Templesmith's werewolf prison tale comes to an end with this issue. The story turned out to a very gory and brutal one. There aren't too many GOOD werewolf books out there, so it's nice that this book even exists. This is the "all hell breaks loose" issue and it certainly does in spades. One minor complaint is that because of Templesmith's loose style, it's difficult to distinguish one character from the next in this issue. That may be because of all of the fur and body parts flying around, but there were a few panels where I wasn't sure who I was seeing. Then again, Templesmith's style gives off a welcome creepy feeling while reading it and the unidentifiable panels only adds to the chill-factor. WELCOME TO HOXFORD has a much heavier tone than Templesmith's WORMWOOD: GEMTLEMAN CORPSE and shows that the artist/writer has got some range. I'm looking forward to reading more of Templesmith's tales of terror to see what else he's got in his artist's bag of ghoulish fun. - Bug 
X-FORCE #9
Marvel Comics
I hadn’t picked this book up in a few months, because the last time I did, it kinda sucked. Maybe it was some of the over-stylized art. Maybe it was the horribly shopworn themes of religious zealots and “satanspawn-blabity-blah-blah.” But this issue…geez, when did X-FORCE stop sucking? Because this issue was excellent and interesting. Maybe it was the introduction of Domino as the newbie POV (point-of-view) character (since she’s normally a world-weary person, the counterpoint here was VERY well-played.) Or maybe it was the always dependable Mike Choi on pencils. Maybe the storyline was just better overall. Lotta maybes. All I can tell you for certain is that the potential I saw in the first issue lineup seems to be much more solidly realized here. Given the high talent of the writers, I’m happy to see the book rising to their level, and I hope it stays here. - Rock-Me
WONDER WOMAN #26
DC Comics
I'm trying really, really hard to like Gail Simone's WONDER WOMAN series. So far, she's thrown everything but the kitchen sink at Diana and my interest has yet to be piqued. A trip to Hollywood to a Wonder Woman movie set. A team-up with the Slayer and Beowulf. And in this issue, Wonder Woman faces an unstoppable force with god-like powers named Genocide. Maybe it's because Genocide looks a lot like Doomsday. Or maybe it's because she acts a lot like Doomsday. Or maybe I'm just distracted by the spikes that block the new character's eyes, which explains why Genocide doesn’t see how much like Doomsday she really is. Or maybe because this new villain beat the snot out of Wondy, just like Doomsday did to Superman. For years, writers have tried to make Wonder Woman interesting. I've read tons upon tons of WONDER WOMAN comics. I WANT to like reading a WONDER WOMAN comic, but for the life of me, no matter what new slant a writer has for the character or new challenge one cooks up for her to face, I can't muster up more than a meh. This issue is more of the same; mainly because this "scary" new villain is just Doomsday with boobs. Boobsday? Hmmm… - Bug 
BUFFY SEASON EIGHT #19
Dark Horse Comics
So ends an arc that was greatly anticipated by many fans. I wasn’t one of them, oddly. I didn’t pick up Fray until it had been collected, and thus, I missed out on the many months of slavering for a final issue that seemed destined never to appear. The fact that Buffy Summers and Melaka Fray teamed up was, to me, just another Buffy story. All that said, I thought it was top notch, and didn’t realize how much I liked the Fray character until now. I also didn’t realize I’ve missed Karl Moline’s pencils, which was the main reason I picked up the LONERS series many months ago (well, that and seeing a grown up Julie Power.) Bottom line on this: if you like Buffy, you would have loved this arc and at least liked this issue. If you’re a fan of good stories and good storytelling, then you would probably like this arc and this series. And if you hate Whedon, then this issue won’t change your mind, because dude, it’s classic Whedon, however that strikes you. - Rock-Me
Remember, if you have a comic book you’d like one of the @$$holes to take a look at, click on your favorite reviewer’s link and drop us an email.
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That way he can be as daft and nonsensical as he wants to be and nobody can complain because daft nonsense is the entire point.
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Where are the DVD picks for 1st week of December?? I love reading your comments.
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I was interested by this comment in the review: "It’s almost like it was a different writer from ALL STAR SUPES or FINAL CRISIS". That's intentional, I think. Morrison has talked about the subjects of his series colouring the way he approaches the writing of them: so, whereas Superman is the classic Apollonian superhero (and his series is written in a suitably tight and straightforward manner), Batman necessitates a very different approach. There's more on this at this CBR interview: http://tinyurl.com/3k57uv
By the way, I love the @$$holes logo this week! Great stuff.
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Conjure up a "death" to get attention and maybe some non regular comic readers, if they do pick up your book they get a stupid story about Bruce's father coming back as a villain? Most casual readers will throw it out and not pick up another comic for 5 years. Didn't they do something similar with Jason Todd a few years back? Stupid.
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Typical Whedon. Yea. Better.
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...I'm not sure that Ambush Bug really understood it. Bruce doesn't die. Thomas Wayne isn't really the Black Glove. The issue makes this pretty clear.
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...Judd Winick isn't writing "Battle For the Cowl" - penciller Tony Daniel is, apparently.
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And in fact talked about it in the review, here:"I read that Morrison changes his writing style depending on what he’s writing, and so BATMAN is written quickly and on the spur of the moment, while ALL STAR SUPERMAN is more measured, and I think it shows. Despite some cool ideas, this was pretty all over the place."I mean, I'm all for something that *reads* fast or violent, but when it's as slapdash as RIP turned out to be, I think the more considered approach pays off. Morrison needs to remember that his writings aren't just performance art, but some people would like to read and make sense of them too. And Rev's right, crazy-mode Morrison's a lot easier to tolerate on something like THE INVISIBLES than BATMAN monthly.
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Dec 03, 2008 8:26:16 AM CST
I AM one of the poor shmucks who read the mainstream articles...
by the nihilist
...and decided to pick up Batman #681. And I gotta say, it left me with a big pile of "meh" and reminded me of why I don't normally read Batman and why I think Emperor Grant Morrison is actually wearing no clothes. I don't think I've ever read a single panel from the man without saying "WTF did I just read?" EXPLAIN YOURSELF, MAN! DROP THE "I'M TOO COOL TO BE COHERENT" ATTITUDE AND TELL US WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON!! As for the Wonder Woman story, I DO read that book regularly and I have to ask--was Genocide a female character? Swear to God, I honestly couldn't tell.
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MAn, my pull list gets shorter and shorter every month. She Hulk continues its slow death march (and is getting cancelled, right?). X Factor continues to be a pale shadow of the coolness it once was (regardless of what last week's positive review said). Ex Machina continues its glacially slow-paced movement towards.....something....maybe a cover that DOESNT look exactly the same as every other Ex Machina cover? The Twelve continues to put out issues about once every 6 months, joining the New Universal "Oh yeah, I remember that book, thats still around?" club. One character is carrying the load right now for Marvel, and that character is.....Thor. If you arent reading pretty much anything Thor, your missing out, because they are absolutely killing it right now. Secret Invasion mini, with one of the baddest-ass comclusions I've sen in years? Check. Regular series, with JMS doing inspired work? Check. One shots, showing Conan-style Thor from back in the day? Check. Old Man Logan, with Thor standing off screen, all alone against the hordes, killing like 500 villians before finally going down? Check.
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and, quite literally, NO questions were answered. Obviously Batman's still alive, because he lived to write that entry into the black notebook, and his 'final fate' doesn't occur till Final Crisis #6-- perhaps that's when we'll find out what Hurt meant when he said the next time Bruce put on the cowl would be his last, and that he'd come to hate the cowl. I dunno... I just don't know. Between this and the new G'n'R album, I am one letdown motherfucker.Does it strike anyone else as pathetic, the way CBR keeps insisting that Hurt was the devil and that they predicted it all along?
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with the conversation with a character I wont divulge (and the last one you would expect), perfectly handled, and honestly kinda touching (and thats rare to say that and really mean it in a comic).
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It doesn't make it clear that Hurt isn't Thomas Wayne. It doesn't make that clear at all. Bruce says he's Mangrove Pierce, and Hurt says he killed Mangrove Pierce, and keeps claiming to be Thomas Wayne right up till the end. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't... but the point is that a reader really has no fucking idea who Dr. Hurt is.
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The thing about genius is the fine line between it and insanity. When Morrison is on track it's genius, when he's not it's incoherent insanity. I say form your own opinions about RIP, whatever they may be. (Personally I found it to have quite clearly stepped over the line into the not so good kind of insanity).
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...has blue eyes and blue jeans. As revealed by Terri Gibbs back in the 80's.No one-hit-wonder fans out there?
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Dec 03, 2008 8:53:40 AM CST
Holy Crap I'm getting confused with this Black Glove shit!!
by righteousbrother
I thought the Black Glove, was the name of the team of villains - you know five members, like five fingers?(alright well four fingers and a thumb)
Aren't we supposed to be trying to guess the true identity of Dr Hurt? If not, then who the hell is this Black Glove chap? (for my money Dr Hurt is the devil - or something to do with Darkseid)
Aside from that, pretty much agreed with your review. And not that anyone's asking but, my favorite Morrisson issue was #666 -
I don't think I'm mature enough to read a comic book with a character named Mangrove. Manhedge maybe, or Manlawn... but Mangrove - can't do it.
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Does he do man-pruning?Maybe man-scaping? I swear, you kids and your body issues...though if his name were reversed, I think "Pierce Mangrove" would be a great name for a male porn star. Like "Buck Naked."
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You would think someone at DC would have been like, "Mangrove... wait.. hehehe - call Grant, we can't have a guy named Mangrove running around, this is a Batman comic not Cherry Poptart." - but sadly no - they just green lighted it, and now it's all Mangrove all the time back in Gotham.
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The Detective Comics #846-850 Hush part of the story is the most entertaining part of RIP.
RIP as a whole story is iffy at best. -
If this ties into Final Crisis, why not have Thomas Wayne? Jason Todds back right? And the Joker alluded to HIS death when explaining the red and black thing.
Remember a few things:
Didio said that Bruce wasn't going to "die"
This is an on-going story regardless of who's writing it, so no, it's not the "final" issue.
And, I think that that helicopter scene is a big fuck you to Didio from Morrison. It's no secret that they were having probs about this run. So Morrison came up with a very cliche'd ending. Warner suits came down on Didio when he announced RIP over the summer. He said in a Newsarama interview that "a few things were changed" I bet there was a different ending that Morrison came up with (at least the "death scene" not necessarily the dialog)and he was told to change it. Make it more ambiguous
Working in the journo/writing field, eds (like Didio) end up having the final say and are most of time wrong. This may not be all on Morrison's shoulders. -
Cherry Poptart= ;)
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I'll say it again: bring on Dan Slott's Batman.
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There have been rumours that Didio made Grant Morrison rewrite the endings for both RIP and FC.
These haven't been confirmed as true but neither DC or Morrison have debunked them either.
Didio, in a recent interview on the DC boards, has also been rather vague about whether Morrison will be returning to Batman or not after Battle For The Cowl.
There's definitely some behind-the-scenes fighting going on in my opinion... -
Batman seems pretty convinced that Hurt isn't his father, and I think he'd know. Also, Hurt *does* acknowledge the fact that he's not Thomas Wayne, when he asks Bruce to consider the only possible alternative...
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Yes, you're right: the Black Glove is the organisation, Dr. Hurt is the man. They've been treated as interchangeable labels at times, but I think that this issue makes it clear that the Black Glove isn't a single individual, but a group comprised of five different people.
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Thanks for clearing it up.
You @ssholes, need to sort it out.
So, anyone thing it IS the devil? -
He hasn't seen his father in 30 years. He wouldn't know if the guy had plastic surgery or anything else. If his dad is still alive, Batman obviously DOESN'T know him at all. Hurt does NOT acknowledge the fact that he's not Thomas Wayne; he says, And if I'm not dad, have you considered the other alternative? This is NOT an admission, but further fucking with both Bruce and the reader. WHAT other alternatives is he referring to? Alternatives like the fact that he could be ANYBODY? Hurt never says he's anybody but Thomas Wayne. Period. And we have no idea if that's right or not.
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And for what it's worth guys, that was the best and most measured review of R.I.P. that I've seen anywhere. That's why I don't mind the week-after reviews, and why I keep coming back here.
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Or anything to do with Darkseid?
Oh, and whilst we're talking about it, what exactly was the big reveal? Supposedly the most important change in Batman's 70 year history? Which, when you think about all the characters and things that have been introduced, not to mention Year One or The Dark Knight Returns - is a pretty stupid claim to make. -
It's called "The Butler Did It", and it looks like it doesn't make any goddamn sense either.
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The 'big reveal' was that Dr. Hurt might or might not be Thomas Wayne. He could also be Mangrove Pierce, Joe Chill, some nameless douche, or, according to some people, the Devil. Which is to say, there's no big reveal: at all.
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Not the original though, the clone. REgardless of the story's quality, I thought RIP was actually rather coherent.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZycGIo9apI
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First off, the guy would be about 75. Second, after he says, "consider the alternative," he talks about heing the "peice that dosen't fit," "there since the begining." Throughout all of Morrison's run, if read together, there are references to "dark master" and the Devil and the great evil. Unfortunately, I believe we are meant to believe Doctor Hurt is the Devil himself, hell bent on the corruption of virtue. Thomas Wayne is a red herring. Go back and read all the Morrison issues. It is spelled out pretty well. The only problem is, it still makes little sense. The Devil would really be yelling, "you moron" at the helicopter pilot and be worried about blowing up in the crash? And why would the Devil even be in a Batman story? It isn't like this is Spider-Man.
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That was good stuff. Weren't they making a TV show out of it? What happened with that?So... is R.I.P worth the trade purchase or, as non regular reader of Batman, should I not really even bother?
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Maybe he's just A devil and not THE Devil?
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Seriously.Yo Laserhead, sadly Didio keeps making money for DC so it'll be a while. DC/Warner's tends to hold onto their EIC's unless the entire line is failing and though he's a douchey prick, the sales hits (Like Sinestro Corps War and the upcoming Blackest Night) do keep happening under his watch.
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Dec 03, 2008 11:11:25 AM CST
they alluded that Dr Hurt could be Thomas Wayne....
by righteousbrother
in a much earlier issue than 681.
I liked the idea that Bruce was 'The Black Glove' but that was debunked a few issues earlier. I think there's something about the Devil in Gothic which Morrison wrote waaay back. I've enjoyed Morrisons run on Batman, I know Gaiman is doing a couple of issues, does anyone know if GM's coming back? Laserhead?
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…or something to that effect. After all, Jacques Derrida is one of the most revered/despised of modern philosophers, as Morrison is to the world of comics. Much of his work has been criticised for being obtuse, incoherent and even gibberish. As has Morrison's.Many claim to 'get' Derrida and turn their noses up at those that label him a 'phoney'. Those that debunk Derrida are met with the accusation that they don't understand him.All you have to do is like Morrison and you can claim you get him, if you don't like him it's because you don't get Him. But then one claims he's crap and no amount of evidence can persuade your opponent to the contrary because Morrison, like Derrida, and like God, cannot be questioned.The world of Grant Morrison is self-sustaining and critic-proof. He is the ultimate postmodern comic book writer, just as Derrida was to modern philosophy. And like Derrida, it's not the words – it's the performance and that's the secret to both getting and not getting.
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Robinson doesn't get Supes, while Morrison doesn't quite get Batman (though he seemed to in JLA, go figure). Robinson gets Batman, though and Morrison gets Superman. Look at their work past on those respective characters.
The Thomas Wayne thing is such crapola, there's no way it can be "true." It would be as bad as JJ Abrams wretched ideas for Superman (and he seems to understand Trek's core more - we'll see). -
I think you guys went a little overboard on Daniel's art. Hurt is not Thomas Wayne. I think Batman being the world's greatest detective would have figured that one out a while ago. I mean come on people!!
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Dec 03, 2008 11:32:33 AM CST
J.J. Binks 4 Prez in 2008 - could you restate that...
by rock-me amodeo
...with smaller words? I couldn't understand what you were saying, and then I forgot what I was doing.
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With regard to Stan Lee in the '60s through early 70s. Spider-Man, FF, Thor, Cap, etc. Sure Kirby brought a ton to the party besides art on FF, Thor, Cap. Morrison has proven to be a great writer on certain titles and his original concepts as well. But it's working with the core material, not changing back-stories, facts, etc. to the extreme, that can make it great. For Batman, look at O'Neil, Wein, Englehart, Loeb, (some)Miller and Dini, to name the ones who got it right.
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"What is your name?""My name is James Tiberius Kirk!"Like all across the country, geeks are going: "James Tiberius Kirk? Gasp! Why thats Captain Kirk's name! Oh my God, that small child is no other than a young trouble making Kirk! SQUEEEEE!"Why not a series of mug shots or something instead? "My name is James Tiberius Kirk!" The rest of the trailer looked good though.
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THAT was an incredibly astute observation. Kudos.
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Much cooler when Bruce Wayne as Batman took on Darkside in the Supergirl storyline of Superman-Batman book. But to make him one of the new New Gods, as it's been suggested? The Batman-on-Film guy Jett is really going to hate that one.
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The one about Bats and Supes and Morrison and Robinson, I mean.
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Since Mangrove cannot be the Black Glove I think the only alternative that Hurt was referring to is obviously.... Mike Hunt..
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Unlike some, I don't out and out hate the work of Robinson (though met him a few years back and found him a pompous ass at the time) or Morrison (who's kind of a nutjob in his own way as is). If you're willing to put yourself in a kid's view as a I do with my little boy, try those Batman, Superma, JL/JLU digest collections of the comics based on the various animated series; the stories are often great and may make you feel 6-10 years old again.
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but then I realized how many moments in Long Halloween he stole from other places.Then I read his other works and... pppppbbbbhhhttttt.
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elsewhere, but it still works for me. Plus, wanna know how much Bob Kane used to swipe from other sources for Batman art?
And after a comics hiatus for a few years, it was Hush that brought me back. Of course Jim Lee illustrating the most f-able Catwoman, Ivy and Lois ever didn't hurt, heh-heh...dirtyoldmancrankyoldguy. I like a lot of Loeb's work, too. Though I think its Johns who understands the superhero ideal best when it comes to DC characters overall. -
between borrowing from, being inspired by, and stealing and their are scenes in Long Halloween that are practically transcribed word for word and that sours the book for me.
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damn lack of edit feature
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You would be into 80s one-hit wonders. :)
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There's Velveeta in my veins, I confess.
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Saying 'the piece that doesn't fit', 'there from the beginning' could certainly apply to THOMAS WAYNE. And why would he have to be 75? Is Batman 55?!?! ALLUDING to someone being the devil, as a possibility, is not the same thing as revealing them to be the devil. If he's the motherfucking devil, why does he give a shit that the helicopter explodes? Why does he walk around looking like Thomas Wayne? Why does he seem to perish a mortal end? FUCK THAT BULLSHIT THEORY. THE POINT IS THAT IN NO WAY IS IT MADE CLEAR WHO DR. HURT IS.
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read the review again. He understood it just fine. Morrison doesn't seem to understand the story he's telling, however. I'm as big a Grant Morrison fan as there is, but this habit among his zombies of telling everybody they're idiots if they don't understand his work is bullshit. New Morrison often writes illegibly now-- his "new writing style" tends to leave out things like reader orientation, logic, transitions, suspense, tension, etc.
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I haven’t actually read all of Batman RIP, just scanned through them in the store and read about them here and on other sites. But Waving Flags in Space has compared Grant Morrison to Jacque Derrida, and if that is an accurate description then I can see where the series went wrong.
Batman shouldn’t be about deconstructionism (and I am still trying to figure out how the fuck Derrida defined it), he isn’t about the abstract, about making things obscure and ambiguous and indecipherable, he is about the opposite of all that. Batman is about explaining the mysterious, about making sense out of that which seemed incomprehensible, and about bringing order to the world. Nietzsche once said, “Poets muddy their waters to make to make them looks deep.” Well, Batman is the opposite of a poet, he’s a detective, and he would figure a way to strain that mud out so you could see how shallow that puddle is.
If you are going to do a story as this, you better make sure that in the end everything is explained in a satisfactory manner: that all the loose ends are figured out, and that everyone knows what happened. Not just Batman, but the audience as well. In the world of Batman, everything can be explained and he does his hardest to provide those explanations for us, his readers. So at the end of RIP, there should be no doubt by anyone whether or not Dr. Hurt, Thomas Wayne, Joe Chill, or Pierce Mangrove, adult star of the, “Mighty Joe Hung.” But the answer should make sense and be grounded in some sort of reality, and bring harmony to Batman and his world. Not disharmony and confusion.
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If you're calling Hulk 'good comics' you must be missing any kind of critical faculty whatsoever. Do you just label anyone with taste and values a "hater"?
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Just saying.
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You have to understand someone might have a different opinion. Everyone looks at art differently. Rock-Me (one more time) Amodeo was just expressing his opinion, which I think he is contractually obligated to do so with AICN. And unless you can explain why you disagree with his assessment and offer a thoughtful counter argument, I don't think calling someone a hater is going to win many people over to your viewpoint.
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Anyone using the nick "JJ Binks" in any capacity isn't showing a measurable quanta of cultural quality and likely has no concept of one.And please change the 'hater' record, it's as tired as your nick and the entire property that spawned it."superhero comics for children" Really?? Jesus Christ on a stick, you ARE a clueless douchestain now aren't you?
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1. Dr. Hurt is really the long gone Thomas WayneorJJ Binks is actually the long gone (and perennial codpiece extraordinaire) Jeff Albertson!One thing is for sure: having an opinion different from yours doesn't make me a hater, and you having an opinion different from mine doesn't make you a douche. The way you express it, however, does.
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But I will say that in his review he expresses that he saw a number of characters (Moon Knight, Sentry & Ms. Marvel) in the story for no real purpose that he could tell; that the Grey Hulk persona also shows up for no discernable reason, and that the Rulk goes around beating people up and fighting, but for once again no purpose. He seems to be saying he finds the Hulk comic currently pointless, rudderless and lacking any sort of story to invest in. That sounds like a review to me.
By the way, I am willing to admit I like John Byrne.
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you still haven't made any cogent points. You've only said that I haven't made any. Return when you have anything of substance to say.
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that you can't express yourself in an intelligible way. Niiiiiice.
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And you people still call Morrison a "genius"? I read Batman and Son and had no idea what the hell was going on. And now Dick Grayson is Batman? No. I'm sorry. Bruce Wayne is Batman, and always will be. And if he died, it certainly isn't in some helicopter crash. I won't read R.I.P. because none of it will matter in a year, when Bruce Wayne is back as Batman.
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Why do Marvel and DC continue to hire this guy for mainstream comics? He is first ond formost the greatest villian the X-Men ever faced and it looks like the same will stand true for Batman. On his own books he can be as out there as he wants. DC and Marvel need to come up with better things than rewriting characters and history. Even hintinh the Thomas Wayne may still be alive and a villian on top of it is almost as stupid as Gwen Stacey sleeping with Norman Osborn.
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Personally, I think he is winning.
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Dec 03, 2008 1:22:55 PM CST
Seem's like there's several folks here who don't "understand" yo
by rock-me amodeo
But I think that will make more sense if you substitute the word "understand" for "agree with."It's so hard being so much smarter than everyone else, isn't it? Shhh....it's okay. Let it out, son. Let it out.
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Hey, now that they rebooted Spider-Man, did that even happen? Oh god, please say no.
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I don't normally have trouble following complicated comic books, if that's what you're getting at. I just have trouble with Morrison's style. There's something very frenetic and confusing about his style, to me. It's not good storytelling, in my opinion.
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Dec 03, 2008 1:27:01 PM CST
Wait... is this guy defending Hulk and condemning Ultimates?
by rev_skarekroe
Isn't Jeph Loeb the "mastermind" behind both of these increasingly foolish books right now?
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Of course, a delusional mind like yours would likely think so. Try getting out of your mom's basement once a decade or so,
son. -
I notice that "the artist formerly known as Jeff Alberston" has reverted to type: just calling everyone stupid, and taking quotes from them, posting those quotes as subject lines, and calling more names.If the game being played here was "review and discuss some comic books" then I think we all win.But I admit, I was playing a different game for the last several comments. It's called "Poke the Troll" and frankly, it's impossible to lose, because it's so darn fun. Your opinion, my opinion...its a forum, you know? And really, your opinion is just as valid as mine. But, I respectfully add, not more so.I'm going to stop poking you now, JJ, partially because I don't want to take over the talkback, and partially because I don't want to be responsible for your head exploding like an extra from the set of "Scanners." But if you absolutely have no self-control, feel free to point a few more nasty diatribes my way. Its all in good clean fun.
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not the Ultimates comic.Grant Morrison keeps getting hired because he is good, hands down. He's good. Don't believe me? Go back to All Star Superman. The man is better than good, he's great.
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Woot!
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Isn't he heading up the big Ultimatum crossover project that's going on right now?
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Oh, make no mistake. He is indeed Jeff Albertson. And in a not-so-ironic twist, Jeff Albertson used to be (simply) Jar Jar 4 Prez. I'm sure there are several of you who remember him well.QUESTIONS FOR ALL YOU COMICS GUYS:Has J.J. Binks (aka Jeff Albertson, Tegujai Batir, Vog From Dimension X, OscarWilde4Prez, Jar Jar 4 Prez, etc.) ever done anything in these Talkbacks besides take shots at the editors and reviewers?Has he ever done anything but slam the Talkbackers by claiming how little they know about comics et al?Has he ever done anything but claim to "pwn" you?Does anyone know if he has ever submitted a review of his own?Surely someone as self-assured as that asshole would be capable of writing a review that blows the minds of all AICN Comics regulars, right?
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So you think you're literate because you read a Morrison comic? I guess I get no points for reading and understanding the Iliad. Don't bring literacy into a conversation about comic books.
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to the Ultimate kingdom yet. By all accounts, Ultimates failed so badly they begged Millar back and Ultimatum has the distinct feeling of a non-event at this point. Its going on right now, you realize.
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Man, I have to say I am a little surprised by your attitude. I haven't insulted you, called you a childish name, or questioned your morality or intelligence. I merely offered a different opinion from yours, and stated I thought Amodeo was winning in your debate.
By the way, have you ever read Dale Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People"? -
of course,he is a "load" though.
You know two things that are awesome? BND and Mark Millar. -
JJ's simply an asshole. He insists he's so much more intelligent than the rest of us, but there's nothing smart about being an asshole.
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Dec 03, 2008 1:44:58 PM CST
I wish Marvel had realized how wrong Loeb was for the Ultimate U
by rev_skarekroe
...back when he wrote those issues of Ultimate Power. I used to really like those books...
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Man you love BND and Mark Millar!
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I have, however, read and understood (at least upon rereading) everything he has written, including RIP. And I do not understand people who find him incomprehensible.
However, I have to admit that RIP was ultimately dull and anticlimactic and I am disappointed. -
"I'm smart, you're not nyhah nyah nyah!" Wow, and you call US sad.....
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Cont - I just like to bring it up. It adds to the chaos. Rev - I don't understand how they thought Loeb fit the Marvel universe, let lone the Ultimate imprint. That guy is a total Winnick.
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I sincerely hope none of us are so naïve as to confuse understanding with basic reading comprehension.
By the basic fact we are all contributing to this board I think literacy can be assumed.
Perhaps we are quite simply arguing semantics at this point and “understand” is simply a poor word choice.
I can “understand” every bubble of dialogue bubble in a Morrison book, but very often the cohesiveness of his stories are bound worse than the Gimp in Pulp Fiction.
The man is brilliant, no doubt, as exhibited by his work on Superman and The Invisibles. It’s when he tackles on-going monthlies that the wheels fall off.
Again, understanding is different than following the thread of the story. I bailed on RIP after the first two issues. Mind fuck Batman is just not my cup of tea. However I can speak to his lack of cohesiveness in FINAL CRISIS. And I can surmise it pretty succinctly.
Too many threads. One minute we are with Darkseid, the next with Libra, One second we are at the beginning of time and next in the future. Hey do you like that Japanese super team, don’t get too attached they are now completely gone from the picture. And where the hell did all of the mini-monitors disappear to? They were pretty damn prominent in the first issue and now they are completely gone.
The threads in and of themselves are A-OK, but it’s presented in such an ADD style you just don’t see the big picture. If you are a novelist fine, tease away, because all will be revealed at the end of your one purchase. When I’m buying monthlies though and four months go by without any sort of resolution of any kind, then is the time to get pissed. There's a difference between suspense and a cock tease. -
That was monthly and a complete blast.
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Agreed. I shouldn't be so broad based.
Perhaps it is Quitely that helps ground him in reality. -
Maybe Quietly "gets" what Morrison sees a little more easily and can translate it into the panels in a way that allows easier reader access.
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Quitely reads the script and says, "Pip pip good chap, what the fuck does that mean?????" or "OK time to wrap this burrito up."
Yes, I believe all Brits say pip pip before every sentence.
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I think Dick Grayson would be a fun Batman for a while with Damien as Robin and Tim the new Nightwing. Nightwing was a great book early on when he was in Bludville and he bangs lots of chicks which is always fun.
Batman has been dark for a while, give Dick the keys to the Batmobile for a while and when Bruce returns there will be that much more contrast to his character. The ruthless Batman has already been done with Azrael. Time for something new. -
His Invisibles run was my favorite.
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Was that suggesting that Dr Hurt's conditioning has been going on since, or before, Bruce's parents were killed? The boy Bruce seemed to mishear "Zorro in Arkham" as Zur En Arrh. Or could it be that Hurt choose that phrase as it was one of the last things Bruce heard he's father say? hmmm
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...right after Bruce got his back broken. For some reason he couldn't handle it and Azrael took over. Or something like that. It's been awhile since I read the story.
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I read the first trade and thought it was OK. From the talk here I may be missing out. Need x-Mas ideas for the friends por moi.
The Thor cameo was very well done, it's my favorite Marvel character. strangely touching , I agree. -
The cameo, that is. I do likes my Thor as well. JMS needs to have him smash some skulls (not skrulls) soon. Getting a little airy for me.
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He was Batman for a very short time and they had him push too hard and then quit to make way for Azrael. Nightwing has matured as a character (Titans/Outsiders etc.). I'd love to see a freewheeling happy batman for a while with a darker Robin partner. Not forever, just until they bring Bruce back (which they will).
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admittedly its not everyone's cup of tea. Its definately conspiracy theory, fringe world, mysticism crazy. If you're not into the idea of a transexual hereditory shaman or a boy from East London destined to be the next Buddha (amongst others, including an obvious Morrison Mary Jane) fighting against (or for) the forces of control and normalcy, then pass it by.
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The concept that our entire reality is a siege engine and that evolved souls like a Buddha or Christ (as Jack Frost was) are the ultimate bullet for supercontextual conflicts. Oh and sorry Joenathan but Ragged Robin was NOT an 'obvious Morrison Mary Jane'. Robin's look was based solely on Jill Thompson of Scary Godmother fame. That's straight from Grant in interviews on the book.
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is Dick Grayson. Anyone else will be a fucking joke.
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A "mary Jane" is a literary term that describes a character that is very obviously a representation of the author, usually an idealized version, and as such, I was obviously then referring to King Mob.
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I have to admit, it makes the most sense and would be the logical conclusion. The reason Batman recruited Robin in the first place was he saw someone like himself, a boy who witnessed his parents murdered and desired justice. He then trained him in all of the skills he knows, everything you need to be a Batman, not only so he would act as his partner but also to act as his replacement in case of emergency or in case something happens to Bruce. I am sure that DC will want to to throw a curve ball and surprise everyone with someone else as Batman because Dick would be too obvious, but sometimes what is obvious and predictable IS the best solution.
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He's also not smart enough or driven enough to want the job. He'd take it because he'd feel like he *had* to, but he wouldn't like it, and he wouldn't stick with it.
Tim Drake, on the other hand, is both A.) Bestest Robin Evar and B.)best man for the job. -
Maybe it's a lack of communication, but some people appear to be stating they find his narratives confusing. I honestly don't know why. So he has a lot of disparate elements, he usually ties them together in a satisfying why, whether in monthly or short form. I take them at their word, because I actually talked to some people who found Pulp Fiction confusing when they first saw it. I am amazed at the number of people who require spoon-fed linear narratives.
And I am NOT saying people who do not like Morrison are obtuse. I can totally understand not liking him, I cannot understand finding his stories confusing once they are completed. -
but maybe thats because of my hatred of bald men who insist on wearing toupees.
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If you read my post, you know I made the same points you did about it being ridiculous if it was the devil (including the helicopter crash), but Hurt is not fucking Thomas Wayne. First off, it would destroy the character of Batman down to the very core. The entire motivation for Batman would be erased. No way is DC signing off on that bullshit. Second, I many have exaggerated the age, but if Bruce is 35 or so, and Thomas Wayne was an accomplished doctor when Bruce was 8 years old, he is mid-60's at the youngest. The Hurt character looked no older than 45. I agree, the ending is very vague and no one knows who the hell Hurt actually is, but judging by Morrison's interviews, the books leading up to the issue 681, and his Gothic work, all signs are pointing to Morrison using the devil. Even Bruce is talking about releasing an ultimate evil by delving too deep into his consciousness. Why the hell would Thomas Wayne, super-philantrophist, who has been shown time and again as Gotham's savior and all around best guy ever, including just recently in Batman/Superman #50, be the source of ultimate evil? It actually makes LESS fucking sense than using Satan. And I wholeheartedly agree, it seems pretty retarded. But if Hurt is the anti-Christ, maybe he bleeds just as Jesus supposedly did. Who the hell knows what Morrison is thinking, but he sure had a lot of mystical mumbo jumbo in his Batman and 52 issues. I agree with you, no one knows what the fuck just went down, and if Morrison doesn't come back, no one will. Let's hope all is revealed in the final two Morrison issues.
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So whats up with this new trend of explosion endings in Batman. I read Detective Comics and at the end of Heart of Hush it ends with a boring explosion in which *gasp* no body is found! Just another dumb we can't actually kill any characters so let's just have an explosion so we can show a reveal in a later comic that the character quickly pulled out a blow up doll version of himself and put it in the helicopter moments before exploding! Seriously though that Hush explosion was disappointing and now I read that Batman R.I.P. ends the same way only with Batman in the explosion this time? Is Final Crisis going to end with the DC Universe exploding just as everyone is about to jump into a portal out of the place? Oh no! Who made it out? Who are the oceanic 6? Find out next time in Final Crisis Part 2: We can't have a new crisis because we said we wouldn't but technically this is still the same crisis so its ok.
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RIP was a POS. So obvious he's not dead, such a lame "death", Bruce Wayne will be back within 6 months at most. Bet on it.
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is painfully on target IMO. The 2 story idea is fine in itself and I can see how you could do something really cool by telling a story from 2 totally different POVs over a series of issues but - WTF is going on atm? Seemingly 2 out of the blue scraps told in tiny fragments. There isn't any story at all and after the epic romp of Planet Hulk/WW:Hulk it just feels incredibly stupid. Speaking of stupid, someone needs to make their mind up once and for fucking all as to the hulks intelligence level and be done with it. Irksome and boring.
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All-Star Superman isn't what I was talking about, I'm talking about mainstream continuity. In something like the All-Star line or and Elseworlds if Morrison wants to make Jimmy Olsen Doomsday, have Superman be dieing from the get go or any of the other reconed continuity that's fine. When it comes to rewriting history with the building blocks of a character or inventing brand new traits for characters like secondary mutations that have wide effects on a comic universe at large that will later have to be cleaned up in some major way is what I'm talking about. Morrison works best when working in his own universe where he pull whatever kind of screwball crap he wants but when it comes to mainstream he is the kind of writer who wants to put his own stink on things. I'm not debating on his worth or skill as a writer I'm saying why do they allow him to screw with things that will only become a mojor problem later.
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As if he was erased from our past as if he never was, but their is still awkward reminders of him once existing.
This is the BDN of the talkback board. Which of you guys made a deal with a/the devil? -
Because of this, I am beginning to completely reevaluate my opinion on BND.
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Desperate situations call for desperate measures.
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Well, first off, his name sells. Secondly, anything he "screws" with can be "fixed". Thirdly, when hes on, he strikes gold. Finally, it seems like the titles he gets drawn to, in the main stream world, are usually at that point in their run where they're getting a bit saggy, where they're feeling a bit stodgy and slow and worn out and Morrison, at the very least, is garaunteed to give the book the kick in the ass jumpstart it needs.Like him or not, Morrison ALWAYS leaves a mark on his books. Sometimes "fixing" the problems he leaves behind can lead to some really cool moments.
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I would like to say that I'm glad someone else enjoyed X-Force as much as I did.... I never would have thought that it would be my fav of the week.... At least, on any week that I received more than one comic in the mail. I think they shot themselves in the foot by bringing back 32 different X-men villains in the first issue, but the last couple have been great....
I'm glad I didn't stick with Hulk past the first issue.... I'm not a Loeb fan, and am glad I didn't waste the money..... I gave Ultimatum a chance, and won't bother going back to that for seconds either. What were they think? Although I had some problems with WW Hulk, they could have gone in a lot of directions.... Instead they chose to absolutely kill the momentum by going with Rulk.... Not that I have an issue with two Hulks, I just have an issue with the suckage that is Loeb's storytelling.....
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no edit feature? Why?
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Not one bit of why this story fails is because of the artist. What Morrison did for 6 issues is suggest a thousand different possibilities and delivered nothing game changing, unless you actually believe that really was Thomas Wayne. Tony Daniel is just about the only thing to endorse about this dud.
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I tend not to read the biggies (Superman, Hulk, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man)........because all change is illusory. Nothing will ever change with them and nothing is ever at stake. There will be a million fake deaths/earth shattering events, but the status quo will always return due to commerce concerns (and not the demands of the story). Its why I tend to gravitate to stories that dont carry the weight of 50 years of history (Walking Dead, Ex Machina, Preacher back in the day) or little corners of the universe that editorial doesnt really notice (Nova or anything Annihilation). Or occasionally a "biggie" if someone with real talent is coming on, but they are on a short leash (Cap and Thor)
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Very simple. Man sucks, makes sucky story. The end.
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in a futile attempt to give Morrison another chance. I've had that graphic novel lying around for months, and every time I try to read it, I become insanely bored. Well I forced myself through it. You guys are right... Morrison is not a confusing writer, he's just a poor writer with too many plotlines and no focus. I also don't care for his dialogue, such as this gem from Talia to Batman:
"Rhas al Ghul is INEVITABLE. You... you are INDESCRIBABLE."
Oh well... I'm heading back to Gotham Central. THAT'S well written.
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Dick Grayson as the new Bat versus Richard 'Bucky' Barnes as the new Cap. Dick hands the supposedly tough-as-nails, KGB-trained former Winter Soldier his sorry ass. Bruce actually smiles from the shadows..."that's my boy." Meanwhile, Steve Rogers returns from the dead because he made a deal with Memphisto - it worked for Peter, so...
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Would looke something like the swordfight from Raiders when Indy pulls the gun on the arabian swordsman, fight over.
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With Kingdom Come becoming part of regular continuity, that other Elseworld or alternate realities might bleed in.
Picture RIP being the 5 year predecessor to synching Bats up with The Dark Knight Returns... -
Because I am a pretentious art snob, I didn't actually find the story that confusing. Tony Daniel is usually a good artists, but there were a few moments here and there where I didn't know what was going on. Joker torturing that Gargoyle guy? I thought it was a different person entirely. I was never too concerned with Hurt's real identity. I think I just assumed that it really was Hurt. Obviously, Batman wasn't going to die. It's one thing to kill off Captain America, but Batman has multiple comics he needs to appear in, let's be serious. I just cruised through the story on autopilot, enjoying the cool moments and sharp, obtuse dialogue. (Grant Morrison can leave out mores words than a Wes ANderson character.) The story had it's moments, which is all it turned out to be in the end, a lot of good moments, but not necessarily cohesing to form a good story.
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I stopped collecting comics about 6 years ago. Nightwing was one of my favs. And I will agree with all of you above who say that Bruce will definitely be back. Six months tops. But I disagree with SleazyG. Dick is too SMART to take on the mantle of the Bat. In the Bane stories, Bruce gave it to Azrael first because he felt Dick had become his own man and wouldn't WANT to fill the shoes of his mentor. Dick only took up the cape and cowl after Az fucked up the job royally.
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Have you read his Doom Patrol or Invisibles??
I totally agree that when he sucks, he can deflate the biggest dick; but when he is on, it's brilliant.
He breathed life back into Xmen (while at the same time suffering from a few serious misfires) when all of the xtitles sucked ass.
I think the guy just needs to back away from the mind-altering substances. Look at Invisibles. Books 1 and 2 were incredible; but book 3 became a messy stream of consciousness that I can't even bother to re-read.
All I'm saying is that the man if far from a hack. -
Have you checked out Locke and Key? I just got the hardback collecting the first story arc and when I finished it, I turned back to the first page and re-read it. I would say that it and Umbrella Factory are bright stars in a sea of mediocre mainstream comics.
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"Why do you thnk Batman would know? - He hasn't seen his father in 30 years. He wouldn't know if the guy had plastic surgery or anything else. If his dad is still alive, Batman obviously DOESN'T know him at all." - - - - - - - - As Doctor Manhattan said earlier, from the way that Tony Daniel has drawn him, it seems pretty obvious that Hurt is far too young to be Thomas Wayne. Batman would know this. Alfred has already stated outright that it isn't Thomas Wayne in an earlier issue. Hurt acknowledges that the documents that Gordon was reading earlier in the story (which revealed that Thomas Wayne was alive) were faked. I don't think that there's really any likelihood that Hurt is Thomas Wayne.
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Yes, I'd recommend the TPB of "Batman R.I.P.". But I'd definitely start from the beginning of Morrison's run (with the "Batman and Son" TPB, then the "Black Glove" TPB) as everything in "R.I.P." builds off those earlier stories. Oh, and the phrase that describes an obvious avatar of the author or a favourite character isn't "Mary Jane" - it's "Mary Sue".
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"Hey, now that they rebooted Spider-Man, did that even happen? Oh god, please say no." - - - - - - - - Well, Norman alluded to it in a recent issue of Warren Ellis' "Thunderbolts" - so I'd say yes. Unfortunately.
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"Don't bring literacy into a conversation about comic books. " - - - - - - - - I think that that statement does the medium a disservice. Yes, many (most) comics are hardly high art, and don't require a particularly high standard of literacy. But some of them achieve more than that, and stand as worthy literature. Oh, and regarding "The Resurrection of Ra's Al Ghul", I agree, it was a very poor story. But, to be honest, I don't think that you can lay all of its problems at Morrison's feet. Here's my review: http://tinyurl.com/6ze872
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"Was that suggesting that Dr Hurt's conditioning has been going on since, or before, Bruce's parents were killed? The boy Bruce seemed to mishear "Zorro in Arkham" as Zur En Arrh. Or could it be that Hurt choose that phrase as it was one of the last things Bruce heard he's father say? hmmm" - - - - - - - - I don't think that it necessarily suggests that Hurt has been conditioning Bruce since before his parents were murdered. I agree with your second statement: that Hurt chose that phrase because it had special meaning for Bruce as the last thing he heard Thomas Wayne say. Also, the final panel reversal of "Zur En Arrh" suggests a reversal of "Zorro in Arkham": Arkham in Zorro. Could this be an allusion to the madness in Batman?
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...........
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Bury that one. If I like it and you don't, I'm gonna figure that you understood it but it didn't please your sensibilities in some way. Buzz Maverik's Fan Improvement Rule # 86: The other guy isn't stupid for disagreeing with you.
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I like your idea of Zur En Arrh being some weird psychic echo of "Zorro in Arkahm." I kinda took the epilogue as a HUGE hint that, as we all know, Bruce Wayne isn't dead, just in some kind of fugue dreamstate awaiting rebirth in t-minus 6 months tops...Still, as interesting as some moments of RIP were, it was mostly stupid and pointless. The Detective Comics story was much more fun to read and ultimately more satisfying.
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You're stupid and you don't get it.
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Hurt NEVER said the documents were faked. NEVER. Alfred and Bruce both said 'You're not Thomas Wayne' and both times Hurt insisted he was. Nobody has 'refuted' that he's Thomas Wayne-- they've denied it, but he went down still claiming to be Thomas Wayne. My argument here is that you guys can't say AT ALL whether or not Hurt was Thomas Wayne, BECAUSE NOBODY FUCKING KNOWS.
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When I was a senior in high school, we used to use this booklet called "Word Power" for vocabulary tests. On each page were several words, their definitions and examples: words at freshman level, words at sophomore, etc, including a word that was considered college level. Each week, we had a test, worth 25 points, one for each word we were tested on.About a month before the end of the school year, the teacher said that if we could bring in an example of any word at senior or college level, she would give one extra point on any vocab test we had taken, up to a maximum of 100 percent on any test. I asked my teacher if comic books counted, and she laughed out loud, and said that IF (if!) I could find one, she would count it. So I went through my comic-books and began noting pages that had relevant words. (Though I was loath to do it, I found my treasured copies of the Avengers Kree-Skrull War particularly helpful, and brought them out of bags just for the occasion.) Not only did I easily find enough words to bring by vocab scores up to 100 percent for the entire year, but I was able to, uhn, "rent" my comics to other seniors so that they could use the comics that I didn't need. Blew my teacher's mind, and she wasn't laughing anymore,, though she was initially stunned. She was convinced I was just using the same comics over and over, so she had me bring them back in so she could record the title and issue number. And of course, I never needed to try and scam her on THAT point. With a stack of about 30 comics, I was able to locate about 80 words. That's not even counting the words that were freshman, sophomore or junior.I can't judge if comics today are written at that level, like they were in 1982 and before, but that's one small example of the amazing, incredible, uncanny and spectacular literacy of comics.
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It feels as though you won't accept that Hurt isn't Thomas Wayne without the character himself stating "I am not Thomas Wayne!". A vast majority of the clues in the story point to the fact that he *isn't* Thomas Wayne - so I'm pretty sure that he isn't, and that he's just messing with Batman. Having said that, Morrison's stories generally (and "R.I.P." in particular) tend to lend themselves to more than one interpretation. You're entitled to your view that Hurt may be Thomas Wayne; personally, I don't see it that way, because most of Morrison's hints have pointed to a different conclusion. Indeed, even if Hurt stated outright that he wasn't Thomas Wayne, a creatively-minded reader could probably find an argument to say that he was lying, and that he secretly *was* Thomas Wayne. Morrison isn't writing comics that spell things out explicitly: his current work for DC has purposely avoided the kind of clunky exposition (whether through dialogue or captions) that readers often rely on for information. There are certain disadvantages to this approach: some readers may misinterpret elements of his stories because they aren't spelled out clearly, and his stories may not hang together as well as he thinks they do. The advantages, however, are a greater sense of verisimilitude, and an openness to interpretation that allows his stories to retain a certain amount of ambiguity. So, you're right - you COULD interpret the story as being the story of Thomas Wayne trying to break his son. However, I think that there are other explanations that fit the story far better, and personally, I've rejected the Thomas Wayne theory completely.
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Status post purge, this has been a great talkback. When there are ad hominem attacks I almost give up, then we have a cool gem like this and I start posting more.
RE:Tim Drake, he is a great character and would be a great Batman. If you follow Teen Titans, he is Batman in the future, and a bit of a dick-head. That MIGHT push Tim away from assuming hte mantle. Pushing him towards that role is the loss of his Dad. What's going on with Spoiler by the way? alive or dead. I'm not a main title Batman guy, but I nibble at the fringe with Nightwing and Robin up until a year or so ago, so I'm looking forward to "Battle for the Cowl." -
Anyone else reading this? I love the reveal at the end of the last issue. "Monopoly" meets "Secret Six." As a big fan of Suicide Squad I'm enjoying SS. Deadshot makes a great foil and the Catman/Deadshot interaction is a throwback to Flagg/Deadshot. I'm into redemption stories, what can I say. Any thoughts on Thunderbolts? I missed out on Ellis and I've been waiting for trades. I read the title until about when Hawkeye joined and jumped ship.
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Word is born.
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I just read the first Ellis Thunderbolts trade yesterday. As much as I can't stand my man Speedball all done up in his torture suit, I really enjoyed the comic. It's wicked brutal but it gives some c-list heroes a chance to shine.
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Stan Lee loved using those ten cent words.
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I agree, I think Drake would be excellent, and I don't think Nightwing has the temperament or desire to be Batman. But as recently as this last issue of Blue Beetle, Drake states that he's not even old enough to vote. Now, I know, depending on who's drawing him, he stands shorter than Wolverine or almost as tall as Nightwing, but I don't think anyone in Gotham is going to be sold on a seventeen year old assuming the mantle of The Batman.
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In college, I told my roomate to read "The Dark Knight Returns" and "Watchmen." I told him that if Monet and Shakespear worked together everyone would read it. It's just a different medium. It can be deep and meanful and it can be low and petty, just like any other artistic medium. This idea that a medium has an intrinsic intellectual/cultural value is BS. The value of any media can only be subjective. Use of a medium can be more or less technically difficult to achieve a particular representation of an artistic idea (i.e. sculpting in stone might, I stress MIGHT be more difficult than drawing in crayon) but once again that is entirely subjective.
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I read T-bolts on your recommendation. Between that and Nextwave, your batting 1000 on the Warren Ellis comic book recommendations.
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Is that out in trade yet? What is the premise? I looked a bit at it, and i've always enjoyed Machine Man.
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But I'm not sure why Jeff Albertson (Jar Jar) keeps annoying the hell out of you guys. I applaud you boys in continuing as if he didn't even exist.Now excuse me while I let you guys continue your discussion. Peace comic lovers.
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Did anyone else go into their LCS yesterday and stand there looking at the stacks for a minute and then go, “I thought all these comics came out last week…” then look up and see a sign that says, ”due to holiday new comics will be shelved on Thursday.” Then just walk around for a minute blankly in stunned silence while the counter guy monitors your reaction to make sure you don’t break anything? And then finally walk out into the sun, covering your eyes, and feeling mildly empty inside? That happened to me. I hope that never happens again
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From Wikipedia: Nextwave consistently features extreme violence and comedy, and simultaneously satirizes and celebrates Marvel's superhero comics. The series frequently uses flashback scenes in which existing Marvel characters such as Captain America, Ulysses Bloodstone and the Celestials act grossly out of character for comedic purposes. In an interview, Ellis said, "I took The Authority and I stripped out all the plots, logic, character and sanity."[6] "It’s an absolute distillation of the superhero genre. No plot lines, characters, emotions, nothing whatsoever. It’s people posing in the street for no good reason. It is people getting kicked, and then exploding. It is a pure comic book, and I will fight anyone who says otherwise. And afterwards, they will explode." So essentially the premise is "awesome." There are two trades out.
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Yeah, the Ellis Thunderbolts run was great. I recommend picking up v.2 ("Caged Angels") for the second half of it. It just came out a few weeks ago.
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Yep, there are two trades of nextwave, comprising all 12 issues. It's difficult to sum up the premise, other than that it's a bizarro take on the Marvel Universe as seen through the lens of Warren Ellis at his funniest. I definitely recommend it. And if you like Machine Man, you get a lot of him here.
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Thunderbolts v. Suicide Squad for best villain team book of all time (Secret Six not in the equation yet IMHO. If you want to argue that then feel free).
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I think Morrison had originally written a much more definitive reveal for Hurt. I think that in lieu of The Dark Knight, much of Morrison's plan has been scrapped, and the ending to R.I.P. remained mostly the same as it ever was, only the villain is left ambiguous so that whatever writers pick up the book next can offer a solution that works for the character going forward. When asked recently if Morrison was still coming back to Batman after the Battle for the Cowl, he said, "Grant's got so many great Batman stories to tell, we're going to find a venue for them." Which sounds like Grant's plans for the continuity version might have been scrapped. I mean, R.I.P. was touted as the most mind-blowing change to the Batman mythos in 0 years. That definitely didn't happen.Another possibility is that Morrison wanted Hurt to remain some kind of identifiable evil, maybe to give him symbolic weight, but if that's the case it actually diffuses all sense of pay-off and significance to the story, for me.And, I don't know, maybe if right before he punched through the copter window, Bruce saw a goat's head with flaming eyes, or even the image of the fallen angel from 'Gothic', I'd be inclined to say, Yep. Hurt was the devil. But there's nothing to indicate Hurt isn't a normal man. Nothing. In that case, he could be anybody. I personally wouldn't have been upset if it was Thomas Wayne. I actually liked the idea, and it doesn't change Batman's essential mission: his mother and himself would still have been the victims of crime, and now instead of two parents to avenge, he has one.
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I don't find much of Morrison's super-hero work 'open to interpretation'. The ending of The Filth? The Invisibles? Sure. But going back as far as Animal Man, and up to All Star Superman, his super-hero work is very cohesive and not given to unnecessary ambiguity; I don't think this is a case where ambiguity adds verisimilitude either. At all. Ambiguity isn't necessarily a good thing, and in a story about a super-hero who dresses like a bat and creates a back-up personality for himself and speaks to a magic bat-costumed imp, I don't think verisimilitude, as it applies to an accurate representation of life as lived, is really what an author should be going for. I don't think shit is added to the story by being unclear about Hurt's identity, other than leaving it open for another writer to make use of before Morrison wrecks the Bat-verse totally. SO: with regard to the uses of ambiguity and verisimilitude, I'll just say that I don't think Morrison's "Doom Patrol" should be more coherent than Morrison's "Batman."
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Seriously, I am no fan of Jeph Loeb. His Heroes episodes were even worse than most of his comics. But having said that.... I friggin' love Rulk! It is one of my top ten reads, and I buy over 30 books a month. The other Hulk story is good for me, too. But I am not a regular Hulk fan. Yeah, it is all dumb and exaggerated, but I find it to be fun, fast-moving and highly entertaining. Incredible Hercules is still waaay better than Hulk ever was, including World War Hulk. That book is in my top 5.
I am also not a regular Batman reader, but got sucked in to RIP. Having read it, it was fine but certainly not moving or monumental. The guy at my LCS expalined the references to me and showed me the Rainbow Batman, but I just can't imagine many people could possible pick up on that without assistnace. Just like the reviewers said, it was a fun story but that's about it and certainly doesn't have any impact, much less the huge impact Bruce giving up the cowl should have. Still, I will pick it up to see who the new Batman is, and again I agree w/reviewers: Dick deserves it but Jason would be more interesting.
Wonder Woman, IMO, was really good when Rucka wrote her. But my all time favorite run involved Artemis, Diana not being WW for a while, I think Meissner-Loebs wrote it and it was drawn by the guy who used to draw Thunderbolts, he draws long-legged sexy women. Aargh! Why can't I think of his name. Somebody help me. -
A Doctor, a healer. A father who loved his son, his wife. This idea of him being evil - nonsense. Crappy nonsense. So the T. Wayne thing better be a ruse. If not, it's like Spider-Man's Uncle Ben having secretly been a pedophile or Ma Kent seducing a teen Pete Ross (ugh...there's a thought I don't want to have again).
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That was driving me crazy. Loved your review, BTW. Totally agree with it.
Now, Thomas Wayne as Dr. Hurt would be very lame and awful, but it would still be better than "the Devil" or "A Devil" or whatever. My issue with Morrison is his weak endings. This isn't the first time I've hung in there waiting for a conclusion that turned out to be unsatisfying. Maybe DiDio is partly to blame. Still, pretty weak ending. -
You are correct. It is Mary Sue, God damn that Mephisto (one of many devils) hes messing with my memory using magic, so therefore I did not notice the mistake. heh
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Ellis's Thunderbolts is phenomenal. Get them.
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Please tell me that you've read Planetary. Because if you haven't, you need to start. Planetary gets my vote for best superhero comic ever. Okay, maybe it doesn't beat Watchman and Dark Kight, maybe, but it sure as hell is right on their asses.
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Forgetting about a delayed comic book day is crushing. You just don't know what to do except look around blankly and then trudge away. Luckily, I remembered this week.
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He made Jack Flag (who used to have a rocket launching boom box) and American Eagle not only cool, but kick ass.Also, I would kill to see the Captain from Nextwave put into regular continuity.
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..In my opinion are Kirby & Lee's run on FF (#50-70), O'Neil & Adams run on Batman, and pretty much everything Stan Lee did on Spider-Man.
Sure Watchmen, Dark Knight & even Planetary are great, but they are post-modern deconstruction of the super-hero genre. You have to first construct something before you can deconstruct, and Kirby, Lee, Adams, Ditko and the rest did a great job of creating so many interesting and complex things for guys like Miller, Moore, Grant and Ellis to tear down. -
Okay, I thought this totally sucked, sucked sucked...then I picked up Batman 682, and I gotta say, this has just gone from one of the lamest Batman stories I've ever read to one of the coolest. Grant Morrison not only knows his Batman lore, but he's slingshot it forward into a 21st century and he's made 70 years of continuity make total sense. Somehow, ALL of Batman's history is now legitimate. All of it. The weird 50s era, the 60s camp–– all the way up to modern tense. Seriously, I can admit when I made a mistake. I'm going back and rereading Batman RIP immediately.
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Know I freaked out in the last post, but seriously, my mind is officially blown. Rarely will I say, "I'm surprised," but I am totally surprised, and it explains so much of the last 18 months of Batman books, which have been weird but strangely coherent--hats off to Didio, a man I've frequently disagreed with–– for giving Morrison the kind of patience to pull something like this off. I think this is one of the coolest twists I've ever read–– it's all been from his point of view, all of it...
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This is way better than infinite crisis or identity crisis. I wish they'd manage to release one of the main "Final Crisis" books once a month, instead of once every 17.5 weeks, but I am just totally on board with Final Crisis now, especially as it pertains to the Batman.
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http://tinyurl.com/6ohyng
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I did read Planetary, but I was borrowing them from the older creepy close/long talking lonely guy that lived across the hall from my girlfriends apartment at the time. We were taking care of his cats and he had like one million trade paperbacks, and I was trying to read them all before he came home so I didn’t have to return them in person. So I read Planetary on skim cycle, and I really liked it, but I don’t think I soaked it all in. I remember the issue that has the Batman being especially awesome. I should read them again though without the specter of wildly awkward social interaction hanging over my head.
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Were unbelievably cool in Thunderbolts. American Eagle could not have been more bad ass as he toyed with Bullseye. Ellis gets my vote as the guy that should be writing New Warriors. Imagine how dope Night Thrasher would be if Ellis was writing him.
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I take that into consideration and still laud Planetary for its genius. Besides, it could be argued that while one could not have existed without the other, that simple fact does not automatically make the latter of lesser quality.
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I agree, comics are always more enjoyable when read without some creepy old guy looming over your shoulder. The same could also be said of showering.Alright, you got me. I would line up for an Ellis penned Night Thrasher. Speaking of New Warriors, do you think Justice is sterile? I bet he is, because Firestar's powers are microwave based right? Well, rubbing your balls up against a microwave repeatedly can't be good for your sperm.Justice (first date): "Ow! My Sperm!" Justice (second date): Huh, it didn't hurt that time."
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Hmmm you have to think that Vance was making a pretty calculated decision when he climbed into bed with Firestar. Although he was potentially ending his chance of having children in the future he would be able to answer the question that Speedball was always asking, “do the curtains match the drapes?” Sorry that was a tiny bit Juvenile… but still , you know Speedball wanted to know. Also generally speaking there are very few situations that you want a creepy old guy watching over your shoulder - maybe only if you are training to be a martial arts master in Kun' Lun.
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Alan Moore, Warren Ellis, Grant Morrison, Frank Miller, etc, are the Beatles and The Rolling Stones.
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Garth Ennis is the Sex Pistols.
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Frank Miller is the Rolling Stones, Grant Morrison is the Velvet Underground, Will Eisner is the Beach Boys, Waren Ellis is David BOwie, Mark Millar is Black Flag, Brian Michael Bendis is REM, Marv Wolfman is The Who.
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All artists will be compared to rock and roll guitarists.
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Justice can't be blamed. After all, every red head in the Marvel Universe is a goddess given flesh, so... Actually, I don't think Justice and Firestar did it, so his balls are probably safe, I mean, except for his constant wearing of a spandex unitard, that is. Remember that "very special" episode of New Warriors where Vance obliterated every bone in his abusive dad's body and he got sentenced to time in The Vault (post Tony Armor War whipping the Gaurdsmen's asses, I believe) and the New Warriors busted him out, but he was such a hero he decided to serve his time and he and Firestar had one last quiet moment and they decided to wait and keep their first time special... proving once and for all, the New Warriors were huge fucking nerds.
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...someone like John Lydon. Once great, capable of innovation on stuff like SIN CITY or MARTHA WASHINGTON (i.e. Public Image Ltd.), but content to piss away the legacy for shock value and easy money.Alan Moore is already kind of a British Bob Dylan, although he does fit better as the Beatles. I guess that would make LOVE AND THEFT and MODERN TIMES the ABC stuff. Can't wait for Bob's BLACK DOSSIER...
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Jim Steranko is Jimi Hendrix. Neal Adams can be Eric Clapton.
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Rob Liefeld is Vanilla Ice.
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a big douchebag
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Joen that was the definitive post on the New Warriors. Hilarious.
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After Speedball and the others get their asses handed to them by retarded-ass Leifeld X-Force creation Gideon, who mimics powers:Gideon stands over a beaten Speedball, wearing nothing but a robe and carrying an unconcious Night Thrasher over his shoulder.Speedball: "Ah... Mr. Gideon, sir? ...How do you make your speedballs do that?"
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If you're talking punk, he's more like The Offspring: they seemed like they might be talented at first, but then he showed he was more interested in cheap laughs and recycled riffs, so you stopped caring about anything he did. And then every once in a while you see something on the shelves, and you're like "hey, they're still around?" and then you hear a new song that's not good, but it's better than a lot of their more recent stuff, so you almost cave and pick it up to give it a shot. Then you remember "Get A Job", and you say to yourself "fuck it...no way I'm gonna waste any more money on a Mark Millar book", but you know that given the chance you'd totally hang out and get shitfaced with the guys in the band, cuz I'm sure they're a lotta fun and I'd rather buy 'em all a pint and a shot than spend that money on "Old Man Wolvie".
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with years of delay between each new issue of Daredevil Target.
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Only stating my opinion. But I freely admit bias. I also prefer older films to modern ones, and think that older bands are better then modern bands (and don't even get me started on modern "Country" music).
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is the one I made to my brother after I bought issue #1:
"Why the F@%! did I buy this?!" -
Millar is Green Day. As in a lot of the aging scenesters may call foul, but god damn are they successful.
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Bias. I wasn't really looking for a blue ribbon winner, though. Country music? Gross.
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Is that the one where they fought Terrax?
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Sorry, but I may have grown up in a city but my bad and my summer job of bailing hay at a ranch taught me to appreciate real country music: Hank Williams, Marty Robins, Merl Haggard, Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Kris Kristofferson, Loretta Lynn, and, of course, "No Show" George Jones.
As my dad said about New Country, "If you haven't picked cotton, worked with horses or have a twang, don't pretend you do!" -
Yeah, that is the one. That really pissed me off.
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I never play games like this. This is why you shouldn't go 96 hours without sleep.
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Remember when Millar played Lucy's cousin from Bent Fork, Scotland and he stayed with Ricky and Lucy for a number of episodes. And remember when Lucy snuck into the Tropicana?
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I had this old issue of Spider-Man where he teamed up with The Punisher, Moon Knight, Deathlok and Night Thrasher and my little kiddie self said "why the fuck does he have a skateboard?" Probably a good reason to start swearing.
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what did everyone think?
In a non-spoiler way, I'll just say that personally, I was very disappointed at how the whole thing just fizzled out lamely at the end there. Very underwhelming after how strongly the series started. The set up it did for the upcoming Dark Reign is kind of interesting, but I'm not sure I'm gonna want to invest in it. -
Read Batman 682 and somehow Morrison's entire run on Batman And Final Crisis starts to make a little sense. Not alot, but a little
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Maybe you had to be a kid to enjoy the New Warriors. As much as I bag on them, and its an unending source for jokes, I fully admit I thought the New Warriors were pretty cool as a kid.
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Is the Final Crisis Rosetta Stone. Still, it shouldn't be necessary. Read my OPinions are like Assholes piece from a few weeks ago: http://www.aintitcool.com/node/39129
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Incredibly rushed. C'mon Marvel, we spent the bucks on all this and crossovers. I would have paid another buck to have it paced out instead of a montage. I did like the reveal at the end. Not so sure I like all of the Avengers line-ups either.
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After I read Batman 682, I thought that Morrison's run on Batman might, in fact, be one of the best runs on Batman ever. Think about what he did there. Just the technical achievement. The fact that DC let him get away with this for more than two years––Optimus, you say it shouldn't be needed, but here's a story that was CLEARLY mapped out from a very early date, and in much more detail and complexity than Secret Invasion. This sucker required patience, and I should know-–look, I was literally JUST about to give up on this title. I really hated it. I hated the characterization, I hated Jezebel Jet, I hated everything about the RIP storyline––I'm talking HATE–– but 682 is probably one of the most touching, incredible reveals I've ever read in comics. It was like magic. It made me feel like a kid at the flea market, browsing through silver age stacks of comics. It was that good. As good as "Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow?" Good. And It makes Batman such an ULTIMATE badass, if you think about it. I keep thinking about Morrison's run on JLA, specifically "Rock of Ages." I don't want to spoil anything, but I was so impressed with this title, with this single issue and retroactively with those that preceded it, more than I've been with any comic in a long, long time. The narrative style of Morrison's Batman all makes sense now, as does the bizarre tone of it, all the weird, obscure references...he basically took 70 years of continuity and made it all relevant. Abrafuckingcadabra. Hats off to DC on this one, and GO BATMAN!!!
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And Secret Invasion was totally rushed, and it was a mess. I liked that reveal, too––but come on, like World War Hulk, nothing was ever really at stake here. Bendis pulls another Deus Ex Machina on this one.
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As I recall, Lucy had a lot of 'splaining to do.
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I remember that issue. Didn't they fight the Wrecking Crew?
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I haven't read it yet, but I read some spoilers and I am very interested in where it goes from here. I like that the lack of attention to the Supervillian-verse of late is coming back to bite them in the ass.
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Yes, now I can make New Warrior jokes all day long, but as a younger reader, I did love them, as I obviously returned to them every month. I mean, yes, Night Thrasher's Vietnamese Nanny did try to destroy the world with her Nanny superpowers, but at the time, that was a pretty awesome run.
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Bendis said the next issue of Mighty deals with all the fallout of SI.
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After eight months of you all complaining that it was mostly taking place on the same day? W-T-fucking-F?
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then I agree.HE HAD ONE ARM!
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While I'm not gonna dismiss RIP as a shit story, the ending of THAT PARTICULAR ARC left something to be desired for not only those invested in the story since the beginning, but also the casual reader who jumped in to read of Bruce's demise and got....nothing. HOWEVER, what 682 and hopefully 683 and the rest of final crisis is doing is showing that morrison actually had a plan all along. He wanted to show not only how important Bruce/ Batman is to the DCU but how, even without the powers of Superman or Wonder Woman, he is the strongest of them all. To neutralize Batman, Darkseid, A FUCKING GOD, has been trying to break down his mental will. And to this point, he has failed.
In summary, dismiss the Acid Roller Coaster ideas that is Morrison's work and realize that when the dust settles, he may just have the best Batman saga since Miller. -
Well, that ended pretty much as expected, in an adequate but hardly impressive way, with one unexpected, but unnecessary and IMHO, not good surprise. The whole series has been ok, somewhat entertaining but over-hyped. My LCS said it was a "love it or hate it" conclusion, but I didn't love or hate it. It was a'ight.
On the other hand, the New/Mighty Avengers books have all been top notch throughout SI, and this week's New Avengers is no exception.
BTW, I read comments about the new Avengers line-ups. I have no idea what they are. Where is this info found? -
I'm glad somebody got a kick out of the story, but what exactly is the big reveal you keep talking about? Putting 70 years of stories back into continuity isn't really that big, considering that they already happened and will mostly be dismissed anyway from here on. If I'm not mistaken, didn't Crisis on Infinite Earth or Infinite Crisis already write those out of continuity? Everyone here must've read it by now, so commence with the spoilering.
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Uhn, I agree that the stories themselves have been top notch, but I would like to see some Avengers books that are consistantly about, I don't know...AVENGERS! Not a Hallmark Special about one or two Avengers, or some weird tale about a single Avenger, or a story about a bunch of people tangentially connected to people that know people who stood near people who saw the Avengers this one time...
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Random Interesting Poop.Because that's what this issue read like to me. I know, I know...I just don't get enough. Or something like that.
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last part of 682 shows bruce hooked to the machine he was hooked up to after granny goodness captured him in Final Crisis, FINALLY tying final crisis to something and showing Darkseid has been pulling the strings for a while in Morrison's batman run. for how long, WHO THE FUCK KNOWS. Im saying since the cave in 52, Morrison being a writer for 52 and all.
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It was Nova, not Dethlok.
http://spiderfan.org/comics/images/spiderman_amazing/355.jpg -
So are you saying that Dr. Hurt was an emissary of Darkseid?
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Newsarama has some spoilers in the solicitations article.
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You were referring to the issue I hadn't read yet as opposed to the one everyone else it talking about. Guess I should've checked the issue number first.
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New new Avengers. Even wackier than before. Is there anyone in the Marvel U who hasn't been an Avenger now? Seriously, I think it's only Daredevil, Punisher and The Runaways left. It's like Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
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Ruled. The Nicieza/Bagley run was on of the most enjoyable I've ever read.
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Dr. Hurt is either an agent of Darkseid, (DeSAAD) OR he is an agent of Bruce Wayne's subconscious, which he constructed to help him survive the torture he's undergoing at the hands of Darkseid's minions. Either way, it is an ingenious device, and loodabagel, what I find so incredible about the reveal is that ALL of what's been going on in Batman–– Damien, the league of Batman, the Black Hand––as well as ALL of the 70 years of continuity, including the wacky 50's and 60's, may be up for interpretation––is Bruce Wayne manufacturing entities such as "The Black Hand" to help him realize when he is being psychologically tortured? Is Zur-En-Ahh a "Backup Bruce" he made, is Jezebel Jet even real? Are the League of Batmen real? SPOILER ALERT 682 reveals that Alfred may have been, for decades, Darkseid's spy–-remember, prior to the 60s tv show, Alfred was a fat butler and he DIED, as 682 makes note of. I'm amazed at how much bat-lore is in here, including the "Robin Dies at Dawn" storyline, Batwoman, all of it––he's explained how it all can work together, because Batman has manufactured some of these memories to psychologically assist him in the event of the unthinkable. Morrison's run on JLA established Batman as sort of an Odysseus type character, a mortal who proves himself capable among gods. Batman was the ultimate tactician, which 682 alludes to, "I'm tired of clowns and puzzles...I was trained as a soldier..." It's so goddamned rich, it's insane. What I thought were vague and dreamy and disjointed stories all make sense in this context--Batman has been tortured, he is undergoing torture for the duration of Morrison's run, and, "The Black Casebook," all his unexplained cases, is some sort of clue he planted so he could solve the mystery of what's happening to him. At the same time, the league of Batmen, Jezebel Jet–– he's solving these mysteries with the aide of his "backup" personality––man it's just mindblowing. It's all taking place in his head, but for a purpose––it's not just, "It was all a dream," it's soooo much more complicated than that--- Batman is trying to explain to himself that Darkseid is torturing him--Simon Hurt is there to help Bruce Wayne peel away the possible suspects––he's not Wayne's father, he's not Mangrove, he's the devil––when you peel away all possibilities, then what's left? Darkseid. He's trying to solve the mystery AS he's being tortured by Gods. And when he figures it out, it might just lead back to the "Rock of Ages" Storyline, when Batman explained he'd been engaged in a "Battle of Wills" for DeSaad for 30-40 years, which he ultimately won. To me, this is one of THE most mind-blowing, incredibly layered comic book stories I've ever read. I was speechless when I read it. I had to go back and re-read Morrison's run, which I hadn't even put in boxes, because I thought it was so lousy–– but NOW it all is genius--go back and read it again!
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I think that is pretty much it. Remember when Busiak relaunched Avengers post-Heroes Reborn and had the try outs ad because Perez was drawing every hero that had ever been an Avenger showed up. I think Daredevil was the only one not there and the rest took the oppurtunity to make fun of his blindness. The Avengers are bastards, I'm glad they disassembled. The jerks...
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Interesting... maybe I will pick up the trades.
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Because that actually sounds like some interesting stuff. I'll have to check out this issue now. I figured it'd just be a boring origin retelling story. My vote has yet to be counted on this one, but that still looks like a better ending than "There is no DC universe, it was just an autistic kid looking at a snowglobe."
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And thus begins the reevaluation of R.I.P...
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When I first saw them, I thought it was going to be awesome. It was obviously a rip off of the Wolfman/Perez Teen Titans, and I was happy with them ripping off that concept. I always thought there was a place for team of young, novice heroes in Marvel without some sort of elder mentor figure (no Prof. X, Cable or Emma Frost), just them learning the ropes. Unfortunately, New Warriors just seemed so damn stupid and cheesy in the worst way. I mean, even before I read the comic I was hating the name, "The New Warriors? Who the f$%# are the Old Warriors then? They should be the New Champions or New Defenders or something!"
Plus I thought Night Thrasher on the cover was Rocket Racer with an awesome makeover. Instead it was another black guy who rides a skateboard - why are all the skateboard guys in Marvel black?
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I like to think they're missing a few. But that'd make for a great story. The Avengers could get infected by evil alien mold and start convincing everyone to join the Avengers and, oh wait. That's Marvel Zombies. Still, I think my version has way more potential.
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I think it has something to do with all the break-dancing DC guys being hispanic.
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...because it was making my head hurt. All the references to Odysseus and the meta-history as his subconscious and the fact that 30-40 years of his life have been him engaging a god in a metaphysical battle of wills.
I guess I just like simple things. Like a guy dressing up as a bat so he can fight crime. -
Depending on the book you're reading, you can have either have him grappling with Gods or beating the crap out of muggers. I think thats why, even when I was almost totally buying Marvel, I'd still check out Batman. I think he is the best Superhero creation. He is both incrediblly easy and incrediblly deep as a character and can fit into just about any kind of tale.
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I'm kind of looking forward to that.
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are kind of revealed in the FREE 'Special Edition Dark Reign' Marvel Previews that came out yesterday, didnt your comic shop give you one? It's just a solicitation book for all the 'classified' comics Marvel didnt want to mention until SI8 came out, but it gives a good idea of what direction all those books are going in. I almost enjoyed reading that more than SI8.
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#2 and #3 are out. It's pretty awesome and I never read the first two zombie series.
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Somebody at the LCS has a lot of 'splaining to do!
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It sounds like all you Silver Age babies are going to get a break from all that evil, depressing darkness. Slott is sounding like he's going to play around old school starting in Mighty #21. Some classic avengers are on the team and he's going to be using a lot of classic Avenger villians. Rejoice!
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Seriously, I was done with this title, and I was so disappointed with Morrison's run all the way up to 681, especially because he'd done such incredible work in the past, notably with his JLA Batman interp. I especially thought RIP was just another gimmicky death turd from DC, who, let's face it, as a company is not averse to gimmicky death turds. I was like, "What is this crap? None of it makes any sense. They're not even trying to make Damian like a real person. He's so poorly written. What are all these "bat ninjas?" And why are all these allusions just thrown in there? Just to show Morrison's smart ? Am I supposed to actually CARE about Jezebel Jet? I met her three issues ago and it was SOOOO telegraphed." But after 682, you realize that you NEVER WERE supposed to care about her, and all the allusions are there for SPECIFIC purposes, and the fate of Jezebel Jet was never really the issue–– AND the snowglobe thing is right on, because it's one thing if it's all just "And then I woke up, it was all a dream!" But it's not. What a spin on a cliche! I honestly thought it sucked. Now I think it's incredible. I can't say enough good things about it. Sorry for gushing, but I wanted to geek out last night, and I told my wife, and she was like, "That's nice, dear." I realized I had nobody around who would appreciate the incredible nerdgasm that is Batman 682 so much as the AICN talkbackers.
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Yeah, the ONLY thing I'd say about this story is, and this is NOT a slam on anyone, but I feel like one of the only reasons I think it's so brilliant is because I HAVE read that silver age stuff, and I've just recently read "Rock of Ages," again, and I'm a huge batman fan. I think maybe you gotta have all that past stuff "at the ready" for this one, which is why I'm so shocked that DC let him get away with this--for YEARS!! But it's almost like the Finnegans Wake of Batman stories. Everything means something else!
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Your getting me excited for RIP!
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Green Arrow and Atom... awesome...
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The other reason why it's cool, just like ContinentalOp pointed out, is b/c Batman's always been one of those characters who doesn't really belong with the rest of DC's stable. And it's obvious, even to those who love the character. I mean, how does Batman really make a difference in a world inhabited by people like Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern? They're GODS. But here Morrison has explained WHY Batman belongs--he's frickin' smarter than all of them, and sometimes, it's cool to see a writer demonstrate Batman's smarts in action, instead of his batarangs and ju-jitsu moves. He can't beat Darkseid up, that's ridiculous––but he could outwit him, as he does in Rock of Ages. "Look up! I'm taking it all!" AWESOME!! He thinks on a zero-sum scale––whatever he has to do to win––if he has to get tortured for 40 years, well, that's unfortunate, but hey, that's the cost of doin' business!
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I just read 682, and I hope the possibilities you discuss are like what eventually plays out, but I'm not convinced that's exactly what's going on. How much of Morrison's run actually took place? How long since Batman got taken prisoner in FC #2... I'll have to see the conclusion. But yeah, it's possible that Morrison could save the run yet. (I mean, his run had enough cool moments to make it somewhat good already...)
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killing Darkseid-- one of the all-time best super-hero scenes.
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"You guys wanna try draining the pool at the Hellfire Club again?""No! I still have a rash from that inhibitor collar they slapped on me.""I'd rather have a rash from the Black Queen.""You know, I hear Doom's putting in a pipeline in Lateveria." "I'd be up for that. Those Doombots are lousy shots anyway."
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...of my latest film I LOVE LUCY: THE MOTION PICTURE. We've reteamed Nicole kidman as Lucy and Hugh Jackman as Ricky (the only problem is that Hugh went Method with Wolverine and had the claws grafted to him which means that he slashes up that conga drum when he plays the Babaloo). We've got Jennifer Coolidge as Ethel Mertz and Michael Chicklis as Fred Mertz. I, of course, got a million bucks for mushing together all the "sneaking into the Tropicana" scripts and adding exterior shots, as well as my customary Purdy shotgun and H2 packed with Cuban cigars. Once again, my nephew Riff Maverik is doing the score, Sleazy G. is music supervisor, Ambush Bug is doing on set rewrites, my friend Eriglione's Mom is in charge of craft services because she makes the best canoli west of Chicago; I get cast approval and final cut, of course. Mostly, I'm in it for the free shotgun...
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Great posts. Nice to see someone getting so unashamedly enthusiastic about a storyline like this. I hope that your interpretation of #682 is accurate, and that Morrison's run will hang together a lot more cohesively as a result of this issue and #683.
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Well, I finally read it this weekend, and it was good, but I didn't fully get it. I only kind of understood it and don't quite get MattB's love. But I will wait to see the final conclusion, and it is a'ight in any case.
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