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Vorenus & Pullo Live On?? Bruno Heller Wants To Mount ROME: THE MOTION PICTURE For The Big Screen!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
I am – Hercules!!
“Rome” mastermind Bruno Heller (currently masterminding the freshman CBS smash “The Mentalist”) says Lucius Vorenus survived the final season of HBO's “Rome,” and that Heller is in talks to bring Vorenus and his pal Titus Pullo to the big screen.
But now that Caesar, Antony and Cleopatra are all rotting away in Hell, with what would the movie deal? Heller might offer a clue in this excerpt from an interview with James Hibberd of the Hollywood Reporter:
"I discovered halfway through writing the second season the show was going to end," Heller said. "The second was going to end with death of Brutus. Third and fourth season would be set in Egypt. Fifth was going to be the rise of the messiah in Palestine. But because we got the heads-up that the second season would be it, I telescoped the third and fourth season into the second one, which accounts for the blazing speed we go through history near the end. There's certainly more than enough history to go around."
Will we soon see Pullo palling around with Pontius Pilate, Simon Zealotes and Judas Iscariot at the local multi?
Find all of Hibberd’s story on the matter here.
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Dec 01, 2008 12:18:56 AM CST
So will the movie be in Aramaic? It worked for Gibson.
by madfreethinker
Can't believe I finally got a "first" posting finally after years of never commenting.
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wow, interesting, Rome is brillent curious to see what he could do with a feature
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It ended way too early, apparently because it was so expensive to produce. I'd definitely like to see a full length movie with Pullo and Vorenus.
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I Loved Rome! And I was expecting the series to head in this direction. Pullo whips Jesus. Bank on it.
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Now you HBO fucks...give us the conclusion to Deadwood!
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Titus Pullo is the man.
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Well said... I second your HBO demand.
BTW: Isn't Vorenus as dead as dead can be? I thought the series was pretty clear about that?! I'll have to take another look. -
Cleopatra, with whose death the minseries ends, died in 30 BC. Jesus' ministry and crucifixion occurred around 30 AD. So if our heroes were in their 30s (at least) at the end of the miniseries, they'd have to be in their 90s if they went with a Jesus-centric sequel. Admittedly, _Rome_ sometimes played fast and loose with chronology, but this would be pushing it a bit far even for them.
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Don't equate history, AS IN FACT, with Religous mambo jumbo. Fuck that agendaistic shit.
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Besides, after Titus Pullo turned out to be the assassin of Cicero it's hard to see him as a hero ever again. You wouldn't make a miniseries starring James Earl Ray in further quirky adventures.
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He was a pussy! :P
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Oh god let it be called The 13th Legion
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was one of the most important thinkers in history, and especially influential in developing the theories of civil liberty and natural rights. Most of the ideas on which this country was founded can be traced back to Cicero's influence. No Cicero = no Declaration of Independence = we would still be happy serfs under the King of England. Hence my disgruntlement at making Cicero's assassin a hero.
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Rome had two of the greatest seasons in the history of TV. I'm all for another road trip with those two wacky Infantymen, Pullo and Vorenus.
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"The Messiah" is a fact of history. Not necessarily Jesus, but the historical context of everyone believing a messiah was coming and the implications it had on Rome. Then the movement regarding Jesus emerged, and it was highly troubling for the goverment, and, after Jesus was killed, the aftermath of his movement was a danger to the empire and thus Rome had to deal with it. This is all historical fact, and the way that the Romans dealt with it all is fascinating (and also, potentially, a bit troubling to most Christians who have no idea where the organized religion part of their beliefs originated). This is a significant part of the history of Rome.
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Love the show, but not totally sold on bringing Jesus into the plotline. However, based on how good ROME was, I have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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I don't want to get my hopes up. HBO seems to be a little fucked in the head when it comes to wrapping up there series. I Mean Deadwood got no proper ending neither did Carnivale. They said they would make movie length episodes to tie up all the loose ends but neither of them got one. Preacher got canned before even going into production. So to think that they would make a feature film out of Rome seems very slim. But then again let's hope i am wrong and we all get to see Vorenus and Pullo killing of a bunch of christians (Maybe J.C himself...) in a Rome movie...
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and make the movie 6 hours long
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Jesus, beaten and bloodied, looks up slowly to see a final attacker stepping from the shadows. It is the formidable TITUS PULLO, pulling a tight black T-shirt with the white PUNISHER logo down over his armored tunic. He lifts his shotgun and pumps the shells into the chamber, taking aim.
PULLO: Who's your messiah now, friend?
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I mean, I really hate Andrew Lloyd Weber. Seriously.
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AVE VORENUS!
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Those kind of comments show a mind a mile wide and an inch deep. Seriously those kind of comments put you in the same school of demagogues as Pat Robertson
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Rome was the best thing HBO's done. This must happen!
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Now THIS is a movie a could be excited about! HBO really screwed the pooch by canceling ROME. It was arguably their best series... particularly the first season.
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They don't inted to screen it anywhere, right? Thought so...
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Dec 01, 2008 3:24:14 AM CST
Just bought my dad season 1 and 2 for his B-day
by dracula_wants_the_amulet
I think the show was brillant, honestly. Very hard to watch though. The disfunction and that way these people revenged on one another was to much for me to watch. My dad still thinks a season 3 is coming. He will love this news.
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YES!
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Rome is one of my favourite TV Shows. Was such a shame it got scrapped.
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Blah Blah-Loved Rome, etc...
what I liked most was the military take on the whole thing.
Titus was a massive, effective infantryman-a go to do it all guy.
But Vorenus-beyond being smart and smaller-you could just tell-he was freaking nuts when push comes to shove.
Pullo watched him get nuts in combat-you could tell Pullo Had PTSD just from watching him wig out in combat.
Gahh- Good show!!!
-MLB
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There aren't any firm dates when it comes to Jesus. There's a gap of about 60 years before anyone wrote anything about him. Nobody knows when he was actually alive -- 30 AD for his death is really just a guess, it could have been 30 years earlier than that. So I wouldn't have a big problem with them moving Christ around to fit their timeline. What I did have a problem with was how they compressed one timeline but not another. You have Pipsqueak Octavian one minute and commanding armies the next -- the guy rose to power extremely fast but meanwhile Vorenus's kids haven't aged a single day! The Vorenus timeline never meshed with the rest of the story and hence made no sense. Anyway, my favorite part of I, Claudius was Caligula hearing of a prophecy of a messiah to arise in Judea and assuming it referred to him. I would have loved to see Rome's take on the batshit Roman emperors. Problem with that is Augustus lasted so long. I always figured that was why they ended the series. They'd have to fast forward through 40 boring years of peace to get to something interesting.
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They shouldn't have canceled this show.
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We've had countless films relating to Jesus and the religion he founded. Don't we know that story already? I want this movie to be about ROME. There are plenty of interesting things going on during the reign of Augustus that don't relate to the outer province of Judea. We only elevate its importance in hindsight because the Western world was eventually dominated by Christianity. But at this point in Roman history, it's a blip on the radar at the most. Rome doesn't even embrace Christianity for 300 years. Do something different!
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Hey, two guys were in the middle of every important event in Caesarian Rome! What are the ODDS?
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...but I'd settle for a movie. The season finale for season one was one of the best hours of TV I've seen
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but i'll take whatever bones they throw. HBO had the greatest line up in tv history of the wire, deadwood and rome. They'll probably have to go with the Jesus theme in order to attract a wider audience for the box office. It's probably the selling point to the studios to get the movie made.
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I doubt it, given the evidence we have for people who had worked with Jesus and the dates they were active in Rome. But even if he had been up to 30 years earlier -- okay, that puts our heroes in their 60s or 70s. Still doesn't work.
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It's a bit of a mess. One gospel said Jesus would have to be born before 4 BC, when Herod was still alive. Another says he was born during the census, but that didn't happen until 6 AD. Another says he was about thirty when Tiberius had been emperor for 14 years. That works out to 30 AD, and that's where we get the calendar from. There are so many legendary features to the story, that it's tough to pin down. The fact that established historical figures like Pilate play a role in the story doesn't mean all that much, considering there's nothing stopping people from putting real historical figures into legendary accounts. In the same way, real-guy Prince John is a character in the Robin Hood stories, and Robin is clearly legendary. Pinning down the historical Jesus is like trying to nail jelly to a wall.
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I adored Rome and would welcome more... but would prefer another series than a one off movie in honesty. Especially as, no matter what they say, one of the main protagonists is now definitely dead.
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"given the evidence we have for people who had worked with Jesus and the dates they were active in Rome"
What evidence would that be, exactly? -
Whining from the atheists aside (c'mon guys, there's historical context for Jesus, and it is unlikely Pullo or Vorenius would meet him, just hear about his impact. I doubt the show would delve into whether he was devine or not), I do think putting Jesus-related events would strain the credulity of the show, as it would make both of these guys very, very old. The show has dealt with King Harrod, so maybe they could touch on the Jesus birth story (slaughter of the innocents, etc), but it seems out of place. But I trust the creative team and actors, so if they think they can pull it off, I'm inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.
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Dec 01, 2008 10:16:19 AM CST
The chronology is all out of whack and please no Messiah nonsens
by tombseye
Rather than a retread of the birth of monotheism (indeed we've seen this story way too many times), how about some actual Roman history? The Roman-Parthian (Persian Empire) wars for example, which was barely touched upon? Specifically their fight over the Caucasus and Armenia could be interesting if you have some interesting supporting characters. Rome and Parthia were ostensibly the superpowers of their day (well excluding distant China which is often ignored in history) so this could prove interesting. Also, the Battle of Teautoburg Forest involving the Germanic tribes. IF we're doing real continuity and you want to move forward in time why not Pullo's son (Caesarion) having a more prominent role as a grown-up? Just no more monotheistic religion stuff as we've been there and seen that. Since the series often veered from history, I'm okay with temporal alterations, BUT moving forward in time while Pullo and Vorenus don't age is a pretty silly idea (if that's even being conceived here) regardless of how little people know Roman history.
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I would love for this to happen (even if it won't). Although I don't think that snippet from Heller really tells us anything about the direction it'll take, if Vorenus and Pullo are in it. Either way, I'm in.
The fifth season sounded a bit dumb though. No offense to Christians, but yours is a faith not supported by historical fact. Events were fairly well documented back then, and there was no "historical" mention of Jesus until about 100 years after his death. Same goes for those who think Jewish slaves built the pyramids. Only in your silly magic books, with no facts to support it. I'd rather Heller not superimpose his faith onto history. It was interesting enough, all on its own. -
There's "historical context" for a lot of legendary figures. And the supposed "impact" of Jesus didn't happen until decades later when his followers became numerous enough to be noticed By the Romans. You're talking about a local rabble rouser who had 12 permanent followers and at the time of his execution was considered a threat by the local Jewish authorities, not the Romans. Assuming you're taking the accounts at face value, which I don't. To the Romans, those guys were a dime a dozen. In 30 AD, this guy - at best - would have been a completely anonymous person to any Roman who mattered. The Christian influence on Rome happened much later, not at the time Jesus was supposedly preaching (and irritating theological authorities) in Judea.
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Dec 01, 2008 10:34:22 AM CST
"Fifth was going to be the rise of the messiah in Palestine."
by leafar the lost
I am only interested in the rise of the Messiah in America. Yes, he is the One that we have been waiting for. He will lead us when the World ends on December 21, 2012...
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"c'mon guys, there's historical context for Jesus, and it is unlikely Pullo or Vorenius would meet him, just hear about his impact. I doubt the show would delve into whether he was devine or not..." What on Earth does "historical context" mean here? There's "historical context" for the character of General Maximus from the movie Gladiator. Does that mean Maximus really existed? And how would men like Pullo and Vorenus have ever heard of him? His preaching, if it occurred at all, probably occurred ~40 years after Augustus was crowned emperor, and even assuming Pullo or Vorenus would have lived that long there's no reason to think that Jesus would have been a well-known personage in the empire until at least a century after his supposed death.
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And he looks like Jeffrey Hunter.
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However, I'd be surprised if this actually got made. Fan that I am, I just don't see there being enough interest to justify it unless it was a film that worked outside of the context of the show. If the film were true to the show, I can only see it working on HBO; not the big screen. Otherwise, it will just be another Roman epic that just happens to star our beloved members of the 13th.Also, I found the first season of ROME to be one of the best things HBO ever put on the air. However, the second season did suffer a bit from the compressed storyline and timeframe. That being said, it was still better than most broadcast/cable TV.
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show after show... especially when they start getting REALLY good... Carnivale & Deadwood being the prime examples.... they better keep True Blood ... fucking suit idiots.
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First of all, the are a lot of conflicting reports about the so-called "Messiah" but that aside...
I was rightfully jumping to a conclusion. A conclusion, that since the writers chose to even concentrate on that aspect of histroy they will not concentrate on Jesus, (or, in a more unlikely case, any other such person) as just a person. That does not Epic TV make. And they won't treat them as a person for another reason too (too avoid controversy). So, my request is, keep it as close to fact as possible. -
...so putting him into a show which purports to hue somewhat closely to historical fact would be like dropping Superman into a Vietnam movie.Inevitable religious arguements aside, "Rome" had a massive "so what" air about it. What was the point of it all? I'd take almost any old-school gladiator movie ahead of it as they seem somehow more relevant and rich in a subtext Rome just didn't have....and if they are going to make a movie, please build sets that don't seem like everything was shot in alleys and back rooms. See "Fall Of The Roman Empire" for ideas (like "Gladiator" did).
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I Claudius was better than Rome in my eyes, for all the scheming and John Hurt's brilliant performance as Caligula. Shame about the sets, but hey....it was the 1970's BBC!
And Berserkrl, you need a history lesson, The Brit's haven't been ruled by a King for at least 250 years. -
... so they want to take advantage of that tax-burden, that the Italians are giving it to the first bidder, or tear it down. ROME got first dibs, so they're trying to justify the successful DVD sales to (a) continue the story, or (b) re-imagine the previous story or (c) have an excuse to do yet another movie with cliche cgi battle scenes.
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I was wondering why they were giving that dude so much storytime.
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I mean, this sounds suspiciously like the "Buffy and Serenity II movies" which never materialized, but OMG, if Heller were able to do it I would so be there. And they can bring back Luscious, er, Lucius - he'd have to hide from Augustus's wrath, etc. and go far away - maybe to Palestine! Ooh - and I always wanted to see Tiberius and Claudius - surely they'd be part of the story as well? ACK - don't tempt me with these pipe dreams, Heller! It's cruel.
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is in my all-time top 3 favorite scenes in any TV show ever. I just remember sitting on my couch thinking "Pullo cant die, Vorenus will jump in.....any minute now....wow this is getting serious....holy shit, Pullo's gonna die!!" LOL and my wife, miss chick flick herself, literally yelling at the screen "GET IN THERE, VORENUS!!" and both of us literally jumping off the couch when Vorenus finally, FINALLY, made his move. The more I think about it, the more I think that might actually my favorite scene of all time.
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A movie sounds nice but man I hope they revive the series. Its wishful thinking I know, but damn it's the best show hbo has had.
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I agree with Kingasaurus: the impact that Jesus made on the larger world in his own time was totally minimal. It just seems amplified to us because one of the only things from that period that many people today are familiar with is the Jesus story from the new Testament. But in Roman sources there is really never much mention of Jesus himself; it's the movement of Christianity that gets the Romans' attention--a movement which, even if you follow the Christian version of events, has much more to do with Paul than with Jesus himself. Apparently the Christians were blamed for the famous fire that burned Rome under Nero in 64 (?) AD, but our earliest mention of this fact (as I recall) is from the Roman historian Tacitus, who writes in the second century, more than a century after Jesus would have lived. From this point on, there are plenty of mentions of Christians; the growth of the Christian religion is a historical fact. But the evidence about Jesus himself comes entirely from the gospels, which were obviously written by people who had a very specific (and religious) view of what Jesus meant, and who were probably not eyewitnesses themselves. Even Paul claims not to have known Jesus in life. So the amount that we can know about the actual life and activity of the real Jesus is minimal; all we can know for sure is that he didn't make much of a splash in the 'pagan' world until long after he died.
As for the show "Rome", obviously the time difference between the period of Seasons 1-2 and Jesus makes that seem a strange direction for the series to go. Plenty of interesting stuff happens with Augustus and his family, much of which is referenced in the beginning of 'I Claudius' (and the beginning of Tacitus's history). Augustus only ever has a daughter, Julia; he wants one of his natural offspring to be his successor, but his wife Livia (not the mother of Julia) wants one of her children from a previous marriage to be the successor. Plenty of deaths, accusations of poisoning, and backroom dealings ensue. Lots of material for a good third season/movie. -
I would rather see it stay as a TV show! Another season of Rome would be more popular than the previous two now momentum has built up through DVD and word of mouth, just look at it's IMDB rating...HBO were insane to cancel it, I never understood why they did this. Give me 12 new episodes that last for 12 hours rather than one 2.5 hour movie! And Gooseud is right the THIRTEEN scene is quite possibly the greatest scene ever filmed for TV! The suspense, the sheer brutality, the incredible relief when Vorenus jumps in...Best TV show ever made!
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That final shot of Titus walking the market with his son saying "About your father" was a note perfect ending. But I always believed, VERONUS LIVES! So happy for a movie as they kicked so much ass in the show. Perfect 2 seasons of anything ever produced.
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Just like Yosarian but better!
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Go Go HBO!
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Fuck yeah!!! Pullo whipping Jebus? I'm there.
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One of the best shows on TV! Bring it back y'all!!!!!!!!!
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i believe Josephus mentioned Jesus in his account of the Jewish revolt against Rome. That would have been within a generation of the Crucifixion.
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i agree it would be absurd to insert Jesus into the story. Besides, Obama is awfully busy right now. (wink)
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needs to be doing. Awesomeness.
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I reckon the series was axed because it was TOO good! If it had carried on all other episodic television would have had to have been shut down as Rome broke, beat and scarred them all, showing them up for the shit they were. Rome was AMAZING, particularly season 2, even if it was cut short and frantically put together due to it being cancelled mid-production. It definitely deserved 5 seasons. They say production costs was the reason for it being canned but I would also bet that some stuck-up cunt at HBO just wanted rid of it due to how graphic it was. The sex scene with Octavian and his wife is one of the coolest little scenes I've ever seen in a TV show. You know, the one where he's thrusting pretty aggresively and his face is completely cold, an excellently bold character moment. Vorenus and Pullo ALWAYS deserved to return. I don't think I've ever rooted for two characters as much on any other show. It was really painful to watch when Vorenus totally lost it in season 2 and their friendship broke apart, then, as someone posted above, the great moment where he finally steps in and helps him...such excellent television.
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Have you heard the good news? Jesus died...wait that's not good...oh yeah, he rose again and will come again to judge the living and the dead so if you've been a bad boy you're pretty screwed. :P
Ok I'm a Catholic so I shouldn't be making jokes and saying what I'm about to say.
Was there a guy called Jesus who preached in Galilee and Judea? Yes...probably. There is evidence to suggest that he existed...was he the living Son of God who could walk on water, heal the sick and bring people back to life? Well that's much harder to answer...we simply don't know.
From a logical point of view, it's impossible and at best Jesus must have been a conjurer or something...but faith isn't logical. Something happened after his death...something that affected his followers so profoundly that they were compelled to spread his teachings, even willing to die for their beliefs...did Jesus come back to life? Who knows. But something definitely happened in the period following his death.
Ultimately we won't find out until we die...if there is a God then we will find out what is the right faith and whether Jesus was divine. If there is no God it won't matter because we simply won't exist after we die. Happy times. -
I met a surgeon who was convinced a patient had an out of body experience and he believes consciousness exists after death, but he was also an atheist and thought of all this in terms of natural experiences. Before anybody wonders, my own position is "I don't know."
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the best scene in TV history. If you havent watched the series, you probably shouldnt spoil it, as they spent 10 episodes leading to this moment and it is 10 times better if you see what leads up to it. For fellow Rome fans who HAVE seen it, enjoy!
http://tinyurl.com/6lql8l
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Oh wow, ROME, the HBO show that actually ended with something approaching closure (hello, Titus is dead!) is getting a movie, but the far more "up in the air when they cancelled it" Carnivale isn't even mentioned? Fuck!
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Do this with Deadwood!
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So, the good fuckin' people of Deadwood are just supposed to sit and watch while those Roman hoopleheads get another go?Well, in this I will fuckin' confide. Every fuckin' day that goes by without a fuckin' resolution to the fine upstanding HBO series Deadwood...means another day that David Milch and his network cocksuckers remain unsafe from the whiles of Al Swearengen.
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Vorenus is ordered to crucify Christ but then takes possession of his robe which begins to haunt his conscience?
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Dec 02, 2008 3:03:34 AM CST
plenty of Roman history left - incl. the MOST interesting Ceasar
by maniaq
yeah sure Julius - and you Brutus - and Antony and Cleopatra all made for a wonderful bit of drama but Vorenus and Pullo were most interesting in their interactions with Octavian (who we all knew would become Augustus) and especially with the way S2 ended, there is PLENTY that can be done with this story - for purposes of a feature film that is!
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Purefoy was outstanding in that role, as cool as Pullo and Octavian and Vorenus and as clever and compelling as Brutus and his mother were, Mark Anthony became the true heart of the show. His reaaction to hearing of Cleopatra's death was some of the best acting on HBO ever.
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Dec 02, 2008 9:05:56 AM CST
vadakinX: read "The Pagan Christ", it'll change your life...
by pdorwick
...Jesus probably - very, very probably - did not exist. The Jesus myth predates his supposed birth by 3000 years. Seriously, what you've been taught is wrong; read the book.
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There is so much left to tell about Augustus which include periodic Senate purges, fending off attacks from tribes that lived beyond the empire, additional territorial annexations (i.e. war in Spain, Arabia, the Ethiopian War), the punitive war against Nubia, his massive building projects, and of course, much family dynasty drama.We know he ruled for 41 years, but the how and why of it is much more intriguing.
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Remember, Christianity was promoted through the Roman Empire by Apostle Paul - a real historic figure - who was both a contemporary of Jesus and a major Hebrew scholar, trained by the best.Paul's belief in the historic Jesus as Christ was because of this: (1) He knew Jesus was a real person;(2) based on the apostle's knowledge of Hebrew scripture, Paul believed that Jesus fulfilled the particular predications made by the ancient Hebrew prophets (e.g. Isaiah, Micah) concerning the Messiah.
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...but wasn't the whole 'Messiah Uprising' during the reign of Claudius? some 60+ years after point in time the Rome TV series leaves off? How old are Titus and Lucius supposed to be here?
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Augustus died in AD 14. So he was there for the birth of Jesus, the excitement that led the to 3 Wise Men seeking the "King of the Jews" and so forth. This time period might be what Heller is refering to when he talks about the rise of Jesus.
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Dec 02, 2008 12:28:55 PM CST
Vorenus and Pullo are BACK...to beat the shit out of everybody
by spyguy
There has never been, and never will be, a more unstoppable force of death and carnage than Titus Pullo and Lucius Vorenus.
Dammit, I have to see this NOW.
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Paul himself claimed he never met Jesus except through a private religious experience. Jesus might have been based on a real person, but Paul can't really tell us that. In fact, Paul is painfully short on the specific details of the life of an historical Jesus. Most scholars insist Paul's letters were written before the Gospels were committed to paper.
".. based on the apostle's knowledge of Hebrew scripture, Paul believed that Jesus fulfilled the particular predications made by the ancient Hebrew prophets (e.g. Isaiah, Micah) concerning the Messiah."
There were plenty of Jews who knew Hebrew scripture as well or better than Paul, who insisted Jesus wasn't the Messiah because he didn't fit certain criteria of the messiah, including being a military leader. If it was plainly obvious that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecies, then there wouldn't be any Jews left in the world - they'd all be Christians. It's far from obvious that Paul's conclusions deserve more weight than the entire Jewish community at the time. -
I wasn't trying to say that it was plainly obvious to everybody. I was simply pointing out that Paul's belief in the historic Jesus was because Jesus lived in the same time period. Thus, Paul never questioned his existence.
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I'm an ancient history graduate student, and a good friend of mine is the professor of religious history at a Christian university. Even _HE_says that there is no real historical "proof" of Jesus's even EXISTING. It was a common name at the time, and there were HUNDREDS of people claiming to be "the messiah." Don't confuse _faith_ with "proof." I have faith in my Gods, and you can have faith in yours. But don't expect me for one second to acknowledge the "factual" nature of Jesus's existence. It's a bigoted and extremely rude position.
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Pick up a good history book. I'm sure it will do wonders for you. At least you'll learn that it is the bigots that do the name calling because it fills the gap in their lack of knowledge.BTW I guess Bruno Heller is a bigot too?
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so they better hurry up!
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The point is that "faith" is not "fact." You can have faith that Jesus existed. I'm not telling you that it's "fact" that he didn't, only that the historical record does not _prove_ that he did. The people on this TB saying that it's "fact" and that the record proves their faith-based position are erroneous. It's like me saying that because they recently found the possible location of the Lupercalia, that everyone should accept the "fact" that Romulus and Remus founded Rome after being suckled by wolves in that very cave...or that Schliemann's discovery of Troy means that everything in The Iliad is _factual_. It's preposterous.
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As a matter of fact, I intentionally avoided the faith/Christian dogma discussion. However, in terms of historic Jesus, there is much on the record that you are clearly unaware of.I suggest that you take time to research the many Jewish and Roman historians - such as Thallus and Tacticus - who have confirmed Jesus's place in history (and based on the rules of historical research, certainly remove Jesus from the Romulus and Remus mythical category).
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In fact, this is something my friend and I recently discussed at length. IIRC, Tacitus mentions a "Chrestus" who is causing disruption and doesn't really go into anything more. It proves nothing. Heck, there's barely any mention of Pontius Pilatus for that matter, other than something about him being governor of Judaea. The professor I mentioned...a devout Christian, I might add...eventually concluded that there is really only minor circumstantial evidence of there _possibly_ being some credence to Jesus's existence in the historical record. But to him, that didn't matter, because his _faith_ asserted that to him it was true.
Ancient Greece and Rome is my particular area of expertise, and I start my Ph.D. next year. The historical research you are discussing is completely circumstantial and hardly of any merit except for those _wanting_ historical corroboration of Jesus's existence. You have to make significant leaps of well...faith...to assume that say, Tacitus's "Chrestus" is the specific person you call Jesus. Yeshua was a very common name, and there were many Jews of that era that claimed to be the "Messiah" (Khristós). Assuming that any mention of any person fitting this description = Jesus is a tenuous argument at best, and betrays the bias of the author. -
I also suggest reading the ancient historian Josephus. He made TWO references to the historical Jesus. One is disputed by some (the questions began in the 17th century when everything was being questioned), while the other is not. Josephus also refers to John the Baptist.
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The 2 mentions of Jesus by Josephus are: the "Testimonium Flavianum," which has been accepted as a _forgery_ by just about all historians for over a hundred years, and the reference to _A_ person named Jesus, the "brother of James," only mentioned in passing. This passage has been translated many different ways, some of which seem to omit any mention of Jesus or the word "Christ," leading to more charges of possible forgery, and deliberate or inadvertent mistranslation. Therefore, no reputable historian would cite Josephus as "proof" of Jesus's existence.
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It is true that I didn't mention Josephus above in my summary of 'pagan' Roman mentions, because Josephus, being a Jew who defected to the Romans, is in sort of a different category. The passage from Josephus that so many people refer to as the earliest non-Christian evidence of Jesus's existence is, as BryonMorrigan says, highly dubious: he says something like "Jesus died and then came back to life three days later. He was the messiah." Most scholars now believe that this was either entirely made up, or heavily embellished, by the Christian copyists who produced our modern versions of Josephus (every copy of every ancient text we have is a copy of a copy of a copy dozens or hundreds of times over, and thus prone to error).
But even if Josephus did write that, he was born in 37 AD; Jesus would have died several years before his birth, so Josephus is not an eyewitness. Tacitus, Suetonius, and Pliny, the other early Roman mentioners of Christianity, lived a century later. All any of their testimony proves is that there was a religion called Christianity that believed they were following a leader who had died many decades before--and none of it gives us any level of detail whatsoever about what people were saying about Jesus, other than the disputed passage in Josephus. But none of it this is historical evidence about Jesus himself, just about his followers. There is absolutely zero historical evidence outside of the gospels which makes any claim to have been written by a contemporary of Jesus, or by anyone who claims to have known him personally. Most people also accept the Gospels to have been written after about 70 AD, which makes it fairly unlikely (although by no means impossible, especially for Mark) that they were written by people who were contemporaries of Jesus, or who knew him personally.
Given the fact that the earliest historical figure we know who says anything about Jesus is Paul, a man who flatly admitted to never having met Jesus except for in otherworldly spiritual communions with his ghost, we have to accept the possibility that much of what has been passed down about Jesus comes from Paul and his followers--in other words, most of it is made up by people who didn't know Jesus, but believed they had a personal relationship with his ghost.
I personally find it plausible (though by no means proved) that a Jew with a name that can be roughly transliterated as "Jesus" had was executed by Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius for causing discord during a passover ceremony in Judea. Any level of detail beyond that is, in my opinion, outside of the scope of serious historical inquiry. -
He was aware of Jesus the same way we are aware of many of the newsmakers we discuss on these boards - even though we may have never met them. In other words, historical Paul's acknowledgement Jesus as a contemporary is clear evidence of his existence based on the rules of historical research.Regarding Jospephus, as I mentioned, he makes two references to Jesus - one is disputed but still not proven to be incorrect. The dispute springs from the 17th century during the Renaissance when all things were challenged.His other reference (e.g. James the brother of Jesus) is not disputed and stands as part of the offical record of a respected ancient historian.
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