Cool News
Showrunner Kring: No More References To HEROES’ Caitlin!! UPDATED: Kring Apologizes For Calling Fans Dipshits!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
UPDATED: Time Magazine's James Poniewozik offered on Thursday a pointed rebuttle to Tim Kring's recent assertion that DVRs somehow make it harder to watch serialized shows, and that people who watch "Heroes" live on NBC are "saps" and "dipshits."
Now comes word that Kring has apologized for maligning a mammoth segment of his show's audience. (Though he still doesn't explain how he came to the conclusion that serialized dramas don't work as well when people watch them on DVRs -- when the experience of many suggest the opposite is true.)
His apology:
I need to strongly apologize for the slightly mangled quote of mine that is making it’s way around the internet. It was made while trying to explain the rise in DVR and online audience for the show. I was making the point that these platforms now offer a superior way to watch the show (without commercials, with extra content, commentary, at the audience’s convenience, etc.) And went on to say how it’s getting to the point where “watching the show on the air is relegated to the poor saps and dip****s who can’t figure out how to program their DVR’s”. (Or something close to that) It was a boneheaded attempt at being “cute” and making a point. Instead, it turned out to be just plain insulting and stupid. I know now how it sounded, but I truly never meant to suggest anything negative about our audience. No one cares more about the fans than we do at Heroes, and no one appreciates them more than me. We are grateful for whatever way people are finding our show. Now more than ever.
I want to take this opportunity to say that I’m very sorry for this careless, lame remark. The best way to make it up to you is to live up to my promise that the upcoming episodes of the show are fantastic. I think you’ll agree we’re really on a roll and we couldn’t be more excited about the last four episodes of “Villains” and the upcoming volume, “Fugitives”, which we feel will be a huge hit with the audience.
Thank you for hearing me out.
Humbly
Tim Kring
ORIGINAL POST:
I am – Hercules!!
It sounds like “Heroes” creator Tim Kring may have joined the millions of fans who have grown bored with his series. He told last weekend’s audience at the 2008 Screenwriting Expo:
"I was primarily fascinated by the origin story. Once the original story is over, and the character has no more questions about what's happening or existential drama, then the questions become just about plot, and then it becomes harder for me personally to connect to."
Don’t expect Peter to ever again reference his season-two love interest, whom the super-compassionate male nurse abandoned to a nightmarish alternate future. From IGN.com’s report on the presentation:
When the fan asked if Peter would ever acknowledge Caitlin or express any grief over what seems to be her dire fate, Kring replied, "No, we passed it. We leapfrogged it." He added that when the idea of returning to Caitlin was brought up, they asked, "Really? Are we going to risk that? We have enough stuff to [deal with]."
And though Kring employs time travel constantly in the series, he advises others to avoid it:
"It's a minefield that will make your mind explode. It will just drive you crazy. That's been something we've tried to use with a certain amount of rules - Not being able to change the future unless you go back. That device has been one of those that's just been so complicated for us."
You can read all of IGN’s story on Kring’s answers here.
Tonight’s episode stars Seth Green as a comic book nerd:
After reuniting Sylar (Zachary Quinto) and Elle (guest star Kristen Bell), Arthur (guest star Robert Forster) orders them to find Claire (Hayden Panettiere) and bring her to him. Matt (Greg Grunberg), Hiro (Masi Oka) and Ando (James Kyson Lee) team up together and follow Daphne (guest star Brea Grant) to her hometown of Lawrence, Kansas to discover what she’s been hiding. Meanwhile, Nathan and Peter Petrelli (Adrian Pasdar and Milo Ventimiglia) travel together to Haiti in search of the only man that can stop their father from destroying the world, the Haitian (Jimmy Jean-Louis). Jack Coleman and Ali Larter also star. Robert Forster also guest stars.
9 p.m. Monday. NBC.
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I want to take this opportunity to say that I’m very sorry for this careless, lame remark. The best way to make it up to you is to live up to my promise that the upcoming episodes of the show are fantastic. I think you’ll agree we’re really on a roll and we couldn’t be more excited about the last four episodes of “Villains” and the upcoming volume, “Fugitives”, which we feel will be a huge hit with the audience.
Thank you for hearing me out.
Humbly
Tim Kring
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I'm one of the fans sticking with the show, and is quite excited for tomorrows episode. that being said, kring needs to quit jumping on the bandwagon in hating Heroes. not putting faith in his own show doesn't make for a very optimisic audience.
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No - I can't believe it. People still get excited about this!
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Nov 24, 2008 2:57:41 AM CST
They should be able to tie up some loose ends, I'd think...
by sickpuppy
I still like the show, but hate to invest my time in it, since it seems to be a pain in the ass for Mr. Kring. Writings on the wall.
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I liked the first season, but when characters that should be dead were coming back, it started to get boring - time travel can explain everything, very lame.
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Bugger!
Can't see there being a fourth season of this then. -
What's up with that? After the end of the prior two seasons/volumes, he publicly admitted that things sucked. And now here he is doing it again. He's like the abusive boyfriend who admits that the relationship is no good for his girlfriend, says he'll change, and then winds up beating her again. NBC, fire this guy.
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If he'd ever actually read or watched much sci-fi or comic book material he would have known that from the start. If you're going to use it, use it sparingly (but build some good reason for that into the story, rather than just making your characters dumb or reluctant) and work it out carefully in advance, or else it makes for a horrible mess.
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Nov 24, 2008 3:05:02 AM CST
There have always been easy fixes for the time travel...
by prof. pop-cult
...Along with Sylar and Peter getting too many powers. But Kring and his writers simply aren't imaginative enough (or maybe they don't care) to think them up. For example: Make it so the more Hiro uses his power, the weaker and more unreliable it becomes. And/or develop a timecop hero character from the future who is sent back in time to either take away Hiro's (and Peter's, if he still has it) time traveling, or, failing to accomplish this, assassinating them. But those are just two examples. There are many, many creative ways to limit their powers. But the people in charge are just too damn creatively inept to figure things out. The show has become a Mexican soap opera except the characters have super powers.
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You can't just use time travel as a deus-ex machina plot device, the way Kring does. THAT'S why it's a fucking minefield. He's an idiot who doesn't the genre he's writing.
Time travel has got to have consistant rules, and you have to work your stuff out in advance.
They really need to dump Kring and get someone in who knows the genre, and knows how to "connect to plot". Have you ever heard such a lame fucking excuse by the way? Would ANY other genre show get away with saying something like that?
I can write the coolest opening to a CSI story, but when it comes to using actual science to figure out how it was done, and catch the killer, man, I just can't connect to the plot.
Fuck you Kring, you hack. -
That's just my prediction. It will disappoint, like the last two volumes did -- it'll be a huge flame-out. But the plot will quickly move on to the "Fugitives" volume (which we can already predict will be a rip-off of The Fugitive series and movie). I bet there's a scene where Parkman pleads to the fugitive hunter: "But I'm innocent!" Hunter Guy: "Doesn't matter to me." (Or, some other variant of the line from The Fugitive movie.)
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just like reboot. things to remember.
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Leave Heroes NOW!
It need to be remaked, not rebooted. -
Lost handles time (not necessarily travel) brilliantly. Never too explicit about it or bombastic with it. It drops enough subtle hints for the audience to figure out how their universe works.
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Poor girl. But, one could argue that since the future with the virus was averted then so was her fate there; in other words, she may be stuck in the future, still, but at least not under such crappy circumstances...
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Kring needs to work out his problems not by talking to the press, but by making a better show. If he doesn't feel he can do that, then he should step aside. And Peter's whole Irish Adventure was stupid to begin with. I can't imagine why anyone would want to see a reminder of that.
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I was just going to say the same thing. All they need to do is slip in a few lines from Peter to explain her fate. They could even go as far as saying that as she was trapped in a future that no longer exists, Peter can't actually get to it to save her, or he doesn't even know if she still exists, perhaps she was destroyed with that timeline. Lazy, lazy writing.
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I'd think the kids are potentially super-powered, right? Or did they get thrown into an alternate distopian future, too? Maybe they share a home with Parkman's wife and kid, now that he's trying to date teenagers. Next thing you know, Parkman will convince himself that Molly Walker was his soul mate all along. They should take all the discarded/ disappeared characters and have them all living in Granny Uhura's house in Lousiana. Except Granny played it smart and actually made them train to use their powers all X-Men style. Next thing you know they defeat all the villains easily in about five minutes. Then they send all the current main characters to a distopian discarded timeline. Serves 'em right. If Kring couldn't connect with the characters after the origins were wrapped up, he should have walked away and left it to people who know what they're doing.
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dissing his own show so badly? i really dont know where to start...it is apparent that even if kring doesnt want off the show (it looks like he does though) he should be replaced...they did have a handle on the issues of time travel, with the episode, "string theory" and then they tossed that fucker out of the window in season 2...but now is not the time to nitpick everything...nbc has a choice to make...allow kring to continue and kill the show at the end of this season...or pull a hail mary...do a total revamp and hope you can bring back the casual fan...it worked for lost...it didnt for jericho...it might for heroes
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Bring forth FULLER! MAY HE RIGHT THIS SHIP, THAT MISERABLE FUCK HAS NO IDEA WHAT DO WITH AT ALL!
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Nov 24, 2008 4:04:03 AM CST
Kring finds serialization "a very flawed way of telling stories
by rinse
Huh? Seems just the opposite! With DVRs and the Internet, most people can easily keep up with a serialized show -- assuming that show is good enough that people want to keep up with it, of course.
Plenty of serialized shows have worked and are working right now, Kring. Lame excuse. -
"...a very flawed way of telling stories on network television right now" I'm off to bed.
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Nathan's powers are synthetic, remember? they injected him because he had the potential to manifest later with ease because of his lineage, but he wasn't born with potential for powers like Peter.also, why is the Googlemaps kid the only one who manifested so early? everyone else was in their 20's, yeah?flaws and all, I love this show. as long as they don't move so slowly that they get cancelled before they put all the pieces together, I'll be happy. hey, at least it's still better than Lost.
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Micah manifested early too. So did Linderman and The Haitian.
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A few days behind, sir. This was posted last week. Course, you need a reason to put up a Heroes TB now don't you. (rolls eyes.)
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Lost has never tried to bring back the casual fan. How can they, when the show improved in late S3/S4 it was already too late for a casual viewer to get back into it because it made little sense even to hardcore fans.
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Your create two clear groups, the heroes, and the villains. Next you set them in their own bases of operations, ala the X-Mansion from the X-Men...and Magneto's HQ. Lastly, you make the show in a stand alone villain of the week episode formate, with a overall wraparound bookend plot that somehow creates a simple but ongoing continuity between the individual episodes featuring a season ending "Big Bad". It is that simple!!!Sadly, Kring is not listening to such advice as mine, and thus, the show has become too self important and overly involved, to the point where it is largely scattershot and unintelligible.
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and Kring knows it full well he just can't do anything about it so instead spends his days taking pot shots at fans/viewers anything and anyone else but himself. The dipshit should have been given his marching orders mid season 2 when it truly started to go bad but no somehow he got himself out of that mess with the promise of improving....well the silly sap has'nt So what are NBC waiting for give Fuller the reigns
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You create two clear groups, the heroes...and the villains. Next you set them in their own bases of operations, ala the X-Mansion from the X-Men...and Magneto's HQ. Lastly, you turn the show into a stand alone "villain of the week" episode formate, with a overall wraparound bookend plot that somehow creates a simple but ongoing continuity between the individual episodes, featuring a season ending "Big Bad". It is that simple!!!
Sadly, Kring is not listening to such advice as mine, and thus, the show has become too self important and overly involved, to the point where it is largely scattershot and unintelligible. -
Hey fella actually that..THAT ^ above what you wrote is EXACTLY what this show should have been like....its called Heroes FFS so give us some Villians to go with it and touch upon conspiracy stuff whilst drawing out a big bad for the end of each season...FFS how hard can that actually be to do. One final thing they need to stop paying whoever it is they are paying to do the FX shots as they are getting ripped of blind...outsource it to India or some shit but when you see the same white lightning effect in almost every episode it gets a little boring. Give Sylar his balls back and have him raise an army or Villians the dude from jackie Brown is doing nothing for me.
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Um, they have. Did you see the end of 309? You have Pinehearst (Arthur, Tracy, Knox, Flint, Sylar and Elle) vs. Primatech (Angela, Peter, Daphne, Nathan, Claire, Matt). Now granted they've got the saving the world thing going on, but clearly they're finally starting opposite units.
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The effect of Sylar getting lightning-fucked in the Teaser was boring. Really? That was insane.
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Yes it was boring, how many times do we need to see that same power over and over again as for the now 2 groups emerging it what should have been done mid season 2, instead we had Hiro in Japan..how wacky. The show is painful to make and watch so why bother with it, I await the episode Ando is revealed to be the lovechild of Mrs Petrelli and Nikki (whatever her name is now) a child of Mr Petrelli's and don't even shake your head it's exactly how bad the level of writing has got.
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Except you wanted it to happen in the future, and it has happened. Probably should have earlier, but it seems odd that you didn't initially pick up on it... as for Ando, I think they lost their chance for him to be Tracy's kid when Ando beat off to Niki back in S1 via the Internet.
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Seems as though Kring is preparing the ground to getting himself out of the door? Maybe sees the upcoming strike as an excuse to get away and go back to non-genre work? Don't think the show has jumped the shark yet, and I am sticking with it. But is sat on the bike revving the engine.
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Unless another showrunner comes in who can rip apart the whole Heroes universe, kill off practically everybody and take us back to just a few core characters who we can actually give a shit about...and can also create some *real* conflict and emotion, something that feels authentic...then I say knock this show on the head, because it's just become incomprehesible and embarassing.
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Well gee Mr. Kring Babylon 5, The Sopranos, The Wire, and The Shield found a way to make serialized storytelling work could it be because there creators we're talented indivuals who care about their work? -
where is copycat? We left her in the company of gangsters who were going to kill her. Where is she?!
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Even moreso that what he posted, which was damning enough; "The engine that drove [serialized TV] was you had to be in front of the TV [when it aired]. Now you can watch it when you want, where you want, how you want to watch it, and almost all of those ways are superior to watching it on air. So [watching it] on air is related to the saps and the dipshits who can't figure out how to watch it in a superior way."
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Copycat is dead. Along with Niki. And Caitlin. Or, they accidentally exposed her to a programme about time travel so she transported herself to some other time and has now forgotten how to get back. Well, I think we will have to make up our own story as there is little to no chance of them explaining any of it. I don't think they know how.
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any skilled writer can make time travel a WONDERFUL ploy, not a nuisance. fuck kring
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They're already filming episode 17, I believe. But Kring's become the Andy Reid of TV showrunners, and that's saying something.
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..you would think he could steal a fix to his mess. sadly, the show worked better when it was ripping off major comic book events.
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Nov 24, 2008 6:35:55 AM CST
HTF does eclipse take away Nathan and Nikki new names powers?
by evilwizardglick
We know they were created via injection.
Does Dark Mohinder lose his? -
That would be cool.
Does Dark Mohinder spit alien slime on his victims or is it exuded from another orifice? -
Where is Dark Mohinders slime orifice and why doesn't Spiderman have one?
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If Arthurs original power was to "push" ideas into your head, how the fuck did he wind up absorbing them?
I don't understand that at all and it has not been explained.
If they are using a family trait shared by Sylar and Peter shouldn't Nathan have that ability as well, even though he was created? -
It's eminently possible that Arthur DIDN'T absorb powers... he just convinced Peter to surrender them.
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This is why sequels so often fail. It takes a lot of work to learn how to tell great post-origin stories.If Mr. Kring realized he was only interested in origins...despite the fact that no TV show, to my knowledge, was ever comprised of five seasons of origin stories...he should have done Heroes as a miniseries or gotten out of the show before Season 2.That said, I'm still enjoying Season 3.
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How fucking full of itself that was? 2 hours of self-congratulatory "Aren't we the greatest?" love festing?
Makes them all look like fucknuts now, doesn't it? -
On their part. Why not just have a BSG-esque "The Story So Far"? I mean, they were away for 9 months. It was an hour, actually, but it felt like 2. I didn't even watch that.
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His original power isn't to push ideas into your head. That's a power he stole from someone else. And Nathan generated a random ability because he possessed the appropriate genes to be tested on, but didn't generate a natural ability.
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Whoa. :)
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first, it assumes that everyone has access to highspeed internet and/or a dvr system...they dont...second, it assumes that people change their habits quickly...they dont...yes, 5-10 years from now, streaming media will be the primary way people watch "tv", but alot of that will depend on upgrades of technology...finally, the idea that people are gravitating to streaming media, dvrs and dvds and that is killing serialized tv is absurd...it enhances serialized tv, as people will wait to watch shows back to back, so as to be able to follow the story better...this is a similar reason why many prefer buying a graphic novel rather than buying a monthly comic....kring is an idiot
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Arthur stole Kensei/Adam Munroe's healing power before Peter found him. I think it more likely that the power absorbing/empathising/stealing abilities are a family trait which is why Sylar and Peter have them in common. Arthur's mind altering power must be one he absorbed and Nathan is just a genetic throwback which is why he didn't naturally get powers in the first place.
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I didn't watch it either. Recap shows have bugged me ever since that first Lost one they did with Brian Cox where the narration had NOTHING to do with what was happening... and actually died out about half an hour into it.
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Is a writer. Writers can't express themselves well in public. They're either flippant, self-deprecitating or just spout gibberish. His comments were dumb, but even my favourite TV writer (Whedon) has been talking absolute twaddle recently.
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Sort of (key phrase there) agrees with Kring: "There are a host of factors behind the ratings declines that have afflicted many serialized dramas: shifting viewing patterns, the rise of DVRs, an oversaturated market. But don't rule out the most obvious cause: Most of the shows simply aren't telling their stories well enough to keep an audience interested."
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I say we abolish recap shows, altogether. Most shows spend the first half of their season premier filling us in on who people are and what they've done.
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I'm digging S3, but Kring and co HAVE TO go back to telling character stories. S2 was too character driven, S3 too plot-driven. Let's get a balance going where the characters drive the plot, rather than deus-ex-machina time-travel. Then maybe we can have Hiro actually serve a point.
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fuck that noise...i am not a fucking tweener who needs every episode to end with some fucking emo rock song that plays as clark has defeated the freak of the week...season 1 got away from that formula, and it worked
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It doesn't have to be exactly like Smallville. But following a Buffy template wouldn't hurt. Both Doyle and Canfield's 'villain of the week' episodes were extremely well-done, and they could intersect that with a vague overarching narrative.
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http://www.the-owi.com/WELCOME.html
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For as long as it's gonna last, that is. I think we are in the final furlong or two of Kristen Bell's time on the show. She's been the straw that stirs the drink the past 2 weeks. And her work ethic never wavered. In fact, she really stepped it up. Heroes is SO FURTHER UP SHIT'S CREEK when they lose her.
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Kring is great at apologizing and mea culpas: but if you want to work in Hollywood and get an audience to return, you have to learn to fix your mistakes before you make them, not by eager to apologize for them afterward. That owi site above notes "Once again Tim is a class act and always owns up to his responsibility." No, he apologizes for failing to live up to it. His responsibility is providing entertaining and well-written dramatic TV: not apologizing when he doesn't. As for "serialized drama" being "an absolute bear to do," suck it up. Is there any drama on TV right now that isn't a serialized drama? This ain't Kring's "Misfits of Science" day. You've got story and character arcs and continuing development on every drama now made (and most comedies as well).
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I'm not. Everything Kring has said shows that he has no conception of arcs, character development, foresight of repurcussions of character development, developing a season structure and direction etc...you know, the kind of things tv writers and showrunners are meant to do.
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It's like saying puppy dog, kitty cat or black Wesley Snipes.
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Or else 24 is gonna have it for dinner, because a lot of folks are going to tune in to see if it's come back from the nadir of season 6. A further issue; Heroes won't come back from its winter hiatus until February 2nd, which means 24 will have a 3-week jump on them.
It would have been nice if NBC had enough faith in the show to put it after the Super Bowl, but that's already gone to The Office.
*sigh* -
Nov 24, 2008 8:07:06 AM CST
And yet this still gets viewers? LOST viewers minus their brains
by jam banjo
LOST and BSG are fucking amazing, yet still people watch this instead because LOST got too 'complicated' and BSG is too political!
Yeah, God forbid you have to actually think about a show whilst watching. Fucking hell, worrying times if people would still rather watch a completely inept show (now admitted by its creator!) like Heroes with its stupid-o-meter dialled up to eleven each week. I used to like it, but since (and including) the season one finale, it’s been utter shit.
Jesus, to have the nerve and the audacity to come out and say shit like this (time travel complicated? No! Surely Not!), knowing people will still watch, Kring really does know his audience...
"Come On Ike, Hit me again!!!" -
Correction: repercussions.
They did standalone to Alias and it killed it.
I guess with Heroes standalone will be ok though, because you can't kill what's already dead. -
uh...whedon knows how to do both serialized and self contained stories, and do them well...i know whedon, kring aint no whedon...the problem with this show is not that kring and company cant do serialized stories...they dont understand the genre, and kring has no respect for it, or the fans...
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This guys is really good at throwing himself and his staff on the sword but how many times can you do that before people really lose interest. Didn't we hear this kind of stuff from him at the end of season 2 as well? Acknowledging that something is crappy is not the same as making it good.
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Sorry to bring up an old wound but take a look at how Journeyman handled time travel. In its first (and only) season, it quickly established the rules of travelling through time and never got into the mess which Heroes has.This is because Journeyman had some intelligent writers working on it whereas Heroes seems to have a group of monkeys jumping up and down on keyboards.Still, I keep watching Heroes and I don't know why. I DON'T KNOW WHY!
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I hate to throw cold water on any pretensions we have here, but it's really not that hard to "understand" the comic book genre. (Which makes Kring's apparently failures all the more puzzling.) Lots of author have nailed it over the years - Rami got it, Shylahan got it, the people who wrote the Mystery Men movie got it in spades.
In all honesty, all it takes is the realization that it's never about the powers. It's about the heroes. You don't need capes, you don't need super-whatever. You need a main character with a lot of heart. A story about Peter Parker the beat cop, Clark Kent the fireman, or Bruce Wayne the CSI would all be very recognizable to people familiar with the characters as Superman/Batman/Spider Man stories. The powers are gravy - tasty, appealing, beautiful gravy, more often than not, but gravy. The core of the story is the hero, not the power, just like the core of a a good crime story is the mystery, not the car chase.
And maybe that's the real problem with Heroes. Who are the heroes? Hiro has been on a hero's journey at times, but he's flailing. Peter has never had a coherent character arc. Who is the hero in Heroes? -
Whedon worked out how you do this stuff. You do twenty or so standalone episodes which tie into a larger storyline. Casual viewers can tune in and see the good guys facing some new menace whilst devoted fans can appreciate the sequences which hint towards what is to come.Ah, but Kring probably never watched Buffy just like he never read any comics despite being the showrunner for a tv series inspired by comics.
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When 24 returns, this sure as hell won't be appointment television for me anymore. I want to see how this whole Villains story line plays out, but if 24 comes back and is as good as it was in its first 3-4 seasons (I realize season 4 was where it started to dip in quality, but it's the season that hooked me and made me go back and watch the original trilogy) this show will be relegated to make-up status. Meaning I'll probably torrent every episode at my convenience.With 24, Lost, BSG(?), Nip/Tuck(lol), and Supernatural to watch, I definitely won't be starving for my smart serialized drama fix. Hell, Lost itself will satisfy that habit.
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...and again, at it's heart it's not *about* angels and demons. It's about two brothers who love each other. Everything else is gravy, and a chance to heighten the stakes and throw that relationship into greater contrast and relief.
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IAmMrMonkey, what you speak of is done every week on Supernatural as well. New menaces faced while the current main threat is referenced almost every episode, and we learn a little more about what's going on with the main arc of the season.
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I don't think this show has been good since about 3/4 through the first season. The finale of season 1 was horrid and season 2 was absolutely unwatchable.
I watched the first couple of episodes in season 3 and was intrigued to see stuff actually happening again. Unfortunately, the quality of writing has plummeted so much that I find it painful to sit there and watch.
I doubt I'll go back to it at this point. And Kring's comments go to show just how much of a hack he is. Shitting on your own show, yeah, I really want to watch now. -
Is a terrible idea. Perhaps, it'll get more viewers but I'd be even less interested to watch than I already am.
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If so, then that's what Heroes should be doing! I've heard good things about Supernatural but because I didn't watch it in the beginning (believing it to be another Smallville which is too tweeny for me) I've not bothered catching up. Nevertheless, one day I'll get all the previous seasons of it as I hear nothing but praise on these talkbacks for it.
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Most definitely check it out. But please do it from the beginning... I probably don't have to tell you, but just like any good serialized show it's best to watch from the beginning. I've not been disappointed by it yet, ever since I downloaded and watched the first season over a summer a few years ago, I've been hooked! And apparently, the creators had a plan for it to be a 5 season show, so there's no major plotlines that go absolutely nowhere! Even the writer's strike was barely felt at all.
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really, isn't this like the 3rd "we're going to fix things" statement from this guy? i'm still watching and somewhat enjoying because i've turned down the expectations and realized that these people just aren't competent enough to get back to season 1's greatness. still, i think heroes has gotten better in season 3, but we need a lot more HRG ASAP.
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Nov 24, 2008 8:51:12 AM CST
Dark Mohinder more Millennium "DARK" Jose Chung's Doomsday Defen
by evilwizardglick
Jose Chung's Doomsday Defense
Smooth: Well, my god doesn't wink.
Jose: Don't I know it. I once knew your god. He worshipped me: he thought I
was a literary genius. And I was then. Then he asked me what I thought of his writing and I told him: "Goopta, you stink." Because he did! I never saw a grown man cry so hard, for so long. I put my arm around him, I said, "It doesn't matter that I don't like your work! What matters is that you enjoy doing it, you must do what makes you happy." But what I didn't know was that what made him happy was to be a deity! So you are here to kill me because I once told God to not be dark. Isn't that funny? So feel free to use your Onan-o-Graph and your therapies, if that's what it takes to make you happy. And I truly mean that; good luck to you, buddy. But please allow me to wallow in my own misery in peace. And if I should look up from my "downbeat abyss" and find you a fool, that's no right of you to commit upon me a foolish act. -
on thinking 24 will go the same way of every other show that took a powder because of the strike. It could surprise us all.
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All television benefits from the addition of aliens and androids.
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Seriously, what an asshat. How the hell can you expect people who have been on board since day one of this show to stick it out when you have lost interest yourself? I wish I would have stuck with initial reaction when I watched the online pilot - 4400 ripoff. Oh but sadly the show that had a big picture vision and continuity was cancelled, by NBC nonetheless, and this shit is still on. Fuck it, I'm out.
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mark my words
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I would show all those loser back in S1 who said that Heroes is better than Lost because it explains stuff and wraps up storylines etc. S2 and S3 and watch them die inside!
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The show's sense of self-importance and overly serious tone make it fun to watch while drinking and looking for a laugh. Prison Break at least knows it's supposed to be goofy.
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Or did you mean she was Adam's granddaughter (Claire's mother's father)?
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in possibly the worst final episode of a series ever. It was clear there and then that Kring and co had no idea what to do with the show. The axe can't be too far away.
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I guess that's what you can expect from someone that jumps on the bandwagon for serialized and/or superhero themed material. He wanted to do origins every year and just discard the previous characters! Who wants to watch the first half of a superhero movie over and over again? I guess, like most other people, I only really liked the first season up until the lackluster finale. Using DVR and streaming as an excuse for bad ratings? What B.S.! Kring calling people who actually watch his show on-air "saps and dipshits"? Nice.
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Because Whedon sucks ass. Buffy was a pile of tween shit. Firefly was a big bag of borrowed crap. Whedon's best work was Alien 3 and the original Buffy movie, and those were only because he had decent actors and directors to make up for his weak writing.
All you Whedonites can just fuck right off.
No, HEROES isn't the best on TV. It's a superhero soap opera! But it's at least fun without being a self-referential, quirky piece of crap like Buffy. If I ever see the gang on HEROES standing around bantering like the annoying characters on Buffy, I'll turn it off and never look back.
HEROES is filler, but it's entertaining filler. That's all I expect of it, and it delivers.
Personally, I can't wait until BSG, LOST, DOCTOR WHO, and TORCHWOOD start up again. If a Whedon project never rears its ugly head on television again, I'll be completely happy.
Honestly, I think Whedon's probably halfway OK when he doesn't have a bunch of creepy fans bolstering his already-too-inflated ego. It's the Whedonites that make his work intolerable. He writes for them, and they suck it up like pigs slurping slop, and then they run around SQUEAL-SQUEAL-SQUEALING to everyone how their choice of show/writer/producer is TEH BEST EVAR.
Fuck you, Whedonites. You make the Internet less pleasant. I'd almost rather deal with furries than the Whedon cult. As least you can see fursuiters coming before they attempt to yiff you. -
So, he creates a show, has one very good season, knows he has little to do with the actual quality of those early shows, has no idea what goes into a great superhero story and now pretty much admits this while the show is still on the air? Fuck heroes. I'm done. If they don't care, I don't either. I stuck with the show through the awful second season and have watched every episode so far, but that ends today. Way to ruin what could have been a fun series. I hope Marvel Studios looks into doing some non-animated tv stuff some day. I want a good hero show god damn it.
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of continuing to watch this show if they're going to constantly forget characters and never resolve their own story lines? This punches Judy Winslow holes all in it. No wonder the serialized thing isn't working for them. I was sticking around because I still like a few of these characters but now it seems just a big waste of time. Nothing will ever come of it as long as the show's own creator hates the show. They could fix everything with a simple "we time traveled too much, screwed up everything and now we have to fix it" story but that would be too complicated I guess. How did Kring make it in showbiz with that apologetic, defeatist attitude about everything?
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...that every second installment of a comic book movie series has topped the first film. Spider-man 2, X-Men 2, The Dark Knight, etc, etc. Proof that the most interesting material is NOT the origin stories. How hard is it for Kring (a writer who, by his own admission, has trouble wrapping his brain around basic plot structure) to pull this off? Maybe it's because he's just a network TV hack who tried to cash in on a genre he never understood to begin with.
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You've been holding that rant inside for the last couple of Whedon related talkbacks, haven't you? I hope you feel better now; wouldn't want to see you standing outside Whedon's house with a bunch of homemade flyers or anything.
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That pretty much sums up why the show sucks. He has no idea how to create a compelling story, and cannot figure out how to incorporate time-travel.
Easiest fix for them if they're too dumb to figure out how to use time-travel would be to simply kill off Hiro. He's the most annoying character anyway and it would actually be pretty shocking. -
Kring just pulled a Wachowski. First season was great. The rest... meh.
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If Fuller and Pushing Daises were coincidentally coaxed from continuing on ABC so he could work on this schlock, then Kring needs to be shot. I dropped this show halfway through Season 2 and have never looked back. Absolute crap. And yet quality shows like Arrested Development, Firefly, and now Pushing Daisies can't stay on the air.
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See, Kring is a little slow. Of course time travel's a minefield. That's why most people realize beforehand that it's probably not a good idea to have several major characters capable of traveling through time ALL THE TIME! And does he not get that just quickly resolving the Caitlin storyline with class is infinitely better than just pretending it never happened at all? How can we be emotionally invested in any characters if we know at any time the writers may just abandon them. We're not just talking about 2nd-stringers here either. They forgot all about Micah's boring (yet with a cool original power) cousin too. Then they anticlimactically kill characters stupidly or kill them off screen: DL, Niki, etc. Ugh! If you're going to kill a main character, don't have them go out like some punk.
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I just know that somewhere amongst all the hate is a little voice declaring his love for a certain blonde minx. And I find that comforting.turketron - Don't worry I'll start at the beginning. I don't have a lot of time for it at the moment but I expect somewhere after New Year I'll become a Supernaturalist (?) too.
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Hells bells, you've already put time travellers into the mix. Why not have an event where Caitlin (who is now badass somehow) rips through from an alternate universe to seek revenge on Peter for leaving her behind?Yeah, it may sound sucky but, hey, at least I'm trying here instead of putting my fingers in my ears and pretending it never happened.
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...after that pathetic SEASON 1 finale. Can't the writers view something as impacting as LOST and create a similar depth within HEROES? IMO, HEROES is a lot of wasted potential. SEASON 1 seemed to be building to something great...and then -- WHAM -- we are hit with a silly ending that didn't reflect what it was being built into. I'm hoping that it can turn into something great...but I am beginning to lose hope.
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... the fact that this show has turned into a fucking mess.
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"How can we be emotionally invested in any characters if we know at any time the writers may just abandon them. "
Well, happens also in comics... so... (yeah, but I know, it sucks) -
lightning rod for all Heroes' woes. I didn't think this would have that much legs a season and a half later.
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Nov 24, 2008 11:45:01 AM CST
I agree with most here: apologizing for a shit season...
by iamjack'suserid
...doesn't make that season magically better. You would think he would get tired of apologizing and actually strive to make a good show. Oh well, not my concern anymore. This show and Terminator are now off my lineup.
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The main problem with the show is not just lazy writing and no vision of where this show is going, it's that they NEVER deliver on the action. Even if it was poorly written, this show would be much more watchable if it occaisionally featured a real throwdown now and then. If a show like buffy can do it, then a show with this budget can deliver actual coreographed fights. Would you read a superhero comic that had no battles? Just endless build up with no payoff.
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You know? Get it? Cuz Bell's power... is... electri... forget it.
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Sylar tonight. Memo to self; put lightning rod on Christmas list. ;)
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If you happen to know any catgirls looking for a Whedon fan, lemme know. mrrowrr. Shit, I'm sorry, am I being too creepy and banter-y for you?
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should be the rarest of abilities
It should be a so gawdaful, fucking hard to do rare event, that an entire season or series is the biuld up to the jump.
Otherwise it becomes the catch all reset button it's been in Star Trek, or the fucking mess it's become in Heroes. -
Creating characters is more interesting than continuing their stories? Yeah, great writer's work ethic you got there. Go write a movie or a novel if you don't want serialized TV. No kidding a continuing plotline is hard! That's why everyone doesn't write television series.By the way, thinking that most people watch stuff via DVR or the internet just has to be wrong. Many people continue to watch shows as they air and can't afford or don't pay for the extra DVR options on TV. It's a ubergeeky and/or elitist kind of attitude assuming everyone does this.
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The ending wasnt that full of plot holes, peter was out of control, the explosive ability was litterally consuming him, he could do nothing about it so needed help to escape. Other than that it was disappointing, no punchup, no payoff, but it was just a taster for the shit that was yet to come.
Peter and Hiro have always been potentially great chars, future hiro was awesome, but we're in season 3 now and hiro is now more of a pathetic wimp and completely inept at using his abilities while peter has no powers anymore.
Im pretty much coming to the same conclusion as with smallville, horrible writers aiming shows at the wrong audience.
The writers for heroes just dont seem to care, they think things will be fixed by throwing in more shitty characters and proceeding to kill them off after boring everyone to death with them, breaking existing characters, killing off potentially good characters, randomizing powers and/or the ability/willingness of the character to use them, ignoring everything that has happened in the past and leaving everyone guessing where the hell they are going with the story.
I so want to see them right this ship, but if the staff is unwilling and unable they should just pull the plug now rather than let it parallel smallville any further. -
I feel bad for anyone attached to this dud. So much potential wasted. And it wasn't because of post-origin story blues, it was the entire abandonment of the characters being in the real world. That the creator of the show isn't even interested doesn't bode well for another season.
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Who gave this idiot a show. And the constant airing of his own dirty laundry publicly. How dumb is this guy. If Darlton made comments like these I would shit myself and burn the Lost DVD sets.
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How come shows like ER have been serialized soap opera type stories and have been popular for years. HBO brought us even more of that, and networks started trying to follow along, while at the same time giving us standalone CSIs and Law & Orders to rerun constantly. Then 24 and Lost showed up, and everyone had to try it. But for some reason, NBC in particular seems to have no confidence in the format. So much of Heroes is taken up by a recap of, like, everything that's happened so far. Chuck is doing something similar, too. They just think we're too damn stupid to follow it.People point to the Sopranos, but that wasn't really serialized like people imply. I would say the height of the serialized television form recently (at least with my viewing) is The Wire. No season ever had a standalone episode, and it cannot be appreciated without watching an entire season. I don't think that show could really ever be copied for network TV.
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Brian Fuller in. Kring out.
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The man's an idiot.
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.... forgetting about Caitlin is the thing I am most thankful for. That whole storyline was an insult to my people. They should have used Kerry Condon. No man would leave her behind.... NUM NUM NUM NUM !!!!!!!!
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You honestly think Heroes is better thsn Buffy? That's like thinking Episode 1 is better than Empire. Buffy does not insult your intelligence at least, unlike Heroes.
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He obviously doesn't know what to do with the show anymore. He should let somebody else take a shot at it.
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I can't believe so many people watch it. It's just the hype and teenage girls in love with Peter Petrelli. Hayden looks like a boy. The only good thing is getting to look at Ali Larter, and there's no way I'm gonna actually sit down and watch the show any more for that reason alone. FuckGETit, Kring, it's over.
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Just like last year, because there's gonna be a 6-week hiatus until the next volume. Six more weeks of a mediocre to pissy end to the Villains arc is the last thing Heroes needs.
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you can think off. Bill and Ted proved that and they are stupid.
No more Ali Larter! I'd do her but she is currently ketchup on apple pie.
Think of something new Kring you hack! I thought this season was supposed to be about villains! The Empire Strikes Back!
Overhaul is needed get rid of 80% of the cast! -
I'd clean house; Daphne, Mrs. HRG, D!ohinder, Flint, Knox, Tracy. Have them stay dead, too. HRG hasn't had much to do this season; if Sylar or Elle killed his wife to get to Claire, that would be one hell of a short-term, as in an episode or 2 story.
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They've really sliced and diced his character to the point where if you showed a tape of Five Years Gone and tell a casual fan the 10-year-old mind he's got now will evolve into the kickass samurai of that episode, you'd be laughed out of the room.
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Nov 24, 2008 12:55:19 PM CST
Jesus Christ, Peter just left the chick there, never to return?
by tallboy66
What the fuck, that's pretty bullshit considering how his motivation for Season 2 at the end was to get the chick back. That's just bad storytelling.
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the laser guided amnesia they've given him that resets him back to a squealing school girl over his powers is a lame attempt to cash in on the characters initial likable-ness, is worn out and busted.
Lame that they're trying to cash in on nostalgia on a 2 season old show.
It was cute in the begining but it's painfull to watch now. -
Nov 24, 2008 1:09:29 PM CST
Let's just all go watch 'True Blood' and 'Terminator' instead an
by lordofdarkness
Heroes is gone. I'm sorry, but we have to face it. Some already suspected this at the ComicCon, when they treated their own fans like the f**** garbage-guy. Fact is, there's nothing salvagable any more, once a series still screws up the writing like this in it's third season. Think of shows like Buffy, Angel, Babylon 5 or even Star Trek TNG. They had already built relationsships between their main characters and stories mostly revolved around them - and not around technicalities like time-travel paradoxes. Look at what they did to Sylar and Elle: 'I may have eaten your dad's brain, but now i've developed EMPATHY and can feel your pain' ???
Maybe Elle should have given those writers some electro shocks to jump-start their creativity! -
You say, "And then we come to Hiro, the ONLY character on the show I enjoy watching. And the reason I'll watch Season 2 right now off my 360. But they better impress me, I cant believe the buzz this show got after a horrendous ending to season 1."
Oh shit... I fear for your xbox. I wish you had burned the episodes from season 2 to a cheap DVD-R instead of having them on your hard drive. It's much easier and cost effective to angrily snap one of those in half than it is to throw your entire 360 at the wall. -
a symptom of no vision, no sense of logic, poor planning, a complete lack of understanding of science, science fiction and super heroes as well as horrible writing. And time travel is just one of many things that are wrong with the show. The ratings free fall and fan hate is hardly just because of time travel issues. Heroes is a very, very poorly run show. There's hope though. The show isn't beyond repair... But Kring has to be canned and replaced with someone who knows what he's doing.
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My roomate, who doesn't read anything on the internet about it, be it articles or talkbacks/forums makes a remark that I have to agree with. THE WRITERS JUST DON'T CARE WHAT THE FUCK THEY DO ANYMORE. I have to agree with him. I watch the show, it entertains me. But dammit do I constantly have to turn my brain off.
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Took this crap off my DVR two weeks ago. No one dies, no dramatic tension, all the stories are stolen from comic books and not even attributed or thanked, and the show runner is a moron.
Thanks but I will be skipping the rest of this crap. Oh, and anyone else notice the JOURNEYMAN wife on Knight Rider? That just pissed me of so back I am boycotting NBC. I am done until something interesting is on that network. -
so I'm getting a kick out of these responses.
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I hope you don't DVR it...
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I just wanted to piss someone off by saying that.
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Nov 24, 2008 1:38:03 PM CST
maybe they can leapfrog to the point this shit is CANCELLED
by slappy jones
its embarrassing now. the show died with the season 1 finale which was one of the worst season finales ever filmed.
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This material from Kring just utterly proves that he doesn't understand the genre, doesn't care about his characters, and doesn't care about his audience. This show is an utter mess and a terrible example of a genre show. Whereas Buffy and Firefly are the top of the form, and it's not just "Whedonites" who say that, but the major critics and people in the business. You may not have liked the Whedon style, but you can never say that he didn't understand the genres he was working with, or that he didn't care about his characters or didn't care about his audience. For the most part, the seven seasons of Buffy and the five of Angel were tight and always aware of how they referenced past events, and integrated them into current storylines. Everything was there for a purpose and everything had resonance. I mean the idea that a character's story is "boring" after their origin is done is just such a ridiculous statement, and the hallmark of the ultimately lazy writing. Of course it's all about plot when you have paper thin characters and cliche themes. There's more integrity, depth and complexity in one episode of a Whedon show than all 3 seasons of Heroes. The only genre shows since Buffy and Angel with that level of complexity and integrity have been Battlestar Galactica and Lost (to a degree). So, um, suck it. Heroes already beat you to it.
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I've suggested some shows to you in the past and I don't think I've done you wrong, so with that in mind, go and download episode one season one Of Supernatural. Run don't walk to the computer and get on board with the best show on TV. If anything, Supernatural has gotten better as it goes on. That's something most TV shows can't claim to do. This season is fantastic. The first two seson really set up what's happening now.
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I feel the need to tell people that enjoy things that I don't to "fuck off" as well. Then I showed the court therapist on the doll where the man touched me. It'll be ok.
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I plan to catch up when I'm in my hometown and internetless this holiday weekend. Past 2 years I've done that with entire seasons of the show! This year I couldn't wait to start it...
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I mean, entire *half* seasons of the show. And jeez ZeroCorpse... your Whedon hate is strong. I take it you didn't like Angel either huh. It was *cough* superior to Buffy *cough*...
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I'd say that Whedon's Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog was a more nuanced, well-written and entertaining take on superheroes and villains than anything Heroes has ever done. Not to mention Whedon's excellent Astonishing X-Men run and Runaways run. Fact: Whedon gets superheroes. Kring does not. Simple as that.
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Ok, I'll admit that Supernatural has grown on me. I was all for the setup and the X-Files/Miracles pedigree, but the first season or so was pretty weak in terms of their plots. But, as others have stated, the show is all about the brother's relationship, and as that has remained the backbone for the show throughout, the writing and execution of the surrounding stories has gotten better and better, and I'm really liking this season. Just to echo everyone else here, it's the characters, stupid! If you don't have consistent character arcs and you don't make us care about the main characters, then the show will not work. The single best episode of Heroes was "Company Man" because they actually took the time to develop one small group of characters and made them matter to the plot. Almost every critic has singled that episode out as the best written and best executed and that the show needs more episodes like that. Apparently, Kring just chose to ignore all that good advice. Dumbass.
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After FOX kills "Dollhouse", fire this stupid fuck and hire Joss Whedon. The guy understands how do an action series, he's a great writer and his run on "Astonishing X-Men" proves he understands this kind of shit quite well. Something drastic needs to happen with this show, because right now, it's one of the worst pieces of shit on TV.
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We'll get a funny musical episode and who doesn't love those?
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blaming serialized drama for his own shortcomings as a writer is lame, also what's his deal attacking lost every chance he gets...Oh that's easy they get off the island and it ends, guess what, they got off the fucking island two seasons before it ends, so go fuck yourself and your lame amnesia stories...
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i am not a fan of buffy, basically because i wasnt a fan of the movie...but there is no question that whedon is a singular talent who understands the genre and respects the fans...which is why buffy had such a large demographic...its easy to put down fans of something like twilight, which is shit all the way around...it is not easy to put down fans of buffy or all things whedon...heroes is only enjoyable if you were a fan of the late 90s mess that was the comic book industry...where both marvel and dc frequently tossed logic and continuity out of the window to satisfy the lust of the fan boy...heroes is the spidey clone saga in spades
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We did a a piss poor job writing that story yet so we're going to pretend it never happened. I have an idea, pretend season two was just a dream and Peter wakes with Patrick Duffy in the shower and dreamed he was a complete frickin' moron for two years.
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or is Heroes starting to suck? I watched the first couple episodes this season but I still have the last 2 on my DVR and I can't bring myself to watch them. The whold Peter and Nathan's dad thing is dumb. Linderman being back as "the evil subconsious" is dumb. The fact that most of them don't use their powers is kind of stupid. Take Parkman for instance, he should know exactly what everyone is doing because he can simply read their minds. Peter should never get his ass beat because he can do what ever the hell he wants. Anyway, I hope it gets better, I used to really liek this show.
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the BSG 4.5 preview during SciFi's Bond marathon, because Canada's Space Channel already has it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhjILFm6N4s -
catch up, then come back and bitch
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Nov 24, 2008 2:38:40 PM CST
Of course time travel is difficult...*COUGH* DOCTOR WHO *COUGH
by spyguy
I mean, the original series of DOCTOR WHO only lasted for 26 seasons and the current series is on four and counting, while the latest season finale, "Journey's End," was the number one show in the UK for the week.
Oh, and Steven Moffat won three fucking Hugo Awards in a row for his work on DOCTOR WHO, Tim. How many have you won?
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So you get people emotionally invested in a character, put her in a dire situation, then decide to never acknowledge it because you've got too much other stuff to deal with? So basically you're telling us not to get emotionally involved with any of your characters because at any moment you could do something horrible to them and then forget all about them because you've painted yourself into a narrative corner? Jesus, what a hack.
And does he seriously think that his sudden realization that time travel stories are tricky is some kind of insight? Yeah, I guess they are kind of tricky if you have no plan and no idea what you're doing.
I forced myself to stop watching about a month ago because I sensed nothing but bad things to come. I've never been more happy that I stopped watching than I am right now and will be even happier to miss it in the future. -
Stupid stupid man! I love Heroes but his comments really dismay me - someone who has stuck with the series. I enjoyed the last season but the current one is starting to annoy me. It seems desperate to please - too desperate - when it should be sticking to good stories and having invested time introducing a character, at least acknowledge what has happened to them, even if we never see them again. Bring back Caitlin!
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Do not do a "George Lucas".
Whatever you write now after Heroes S1 it will never top it. You have reached your limit get some help from Grant Morrison or something! -
You're totally right - Heroes is totally late 90s fanboy spooge. It's really too bad that this show has completely made it impossible to do a real superhero show, since it became such a 'phenomenon' - hell, 4400 actually did it better. Maybe that gay superhero show on Showtime won't suck. btw, the Buffy movie was a whole different animal and the fact that Whedon's original script was raped was one of his main motivations for doing the show.
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..is to work from the end to the beginning. This ensures that paradoxes and all of the other common issues involved with time travel use in the story are avoided. Mirroring the time-travel aspect, the actions that the character(s) will be doing have already happened. The problem is, they didn't know where Heroes was going. So each significant time travel plot has to be made retroactively insignificant to fit whatever the current storyline is. That's how we end up with Hiro traveling back to set up Adam to be The Villain, after the bait-and-switch of HRG/Sylar/Nuke Man. But then they shift gears and suddenly Papa Patrelli is The Villain, rendering a once major time travel storyline pretty pointless. To further retrocon it, when Hiro and Adam are face to face this season, gone is any semblance of the tension that existed between the two. Instead He(i)ro vs Villain with backstory, it is adversarial friendship between side characters. Plot line negated. Same thing with Peter's missing-in-time girlfriend; they thought it was going to be important but it turned not to be, so everyone involved (especially the viewers) wasted their time.
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Notes... Kill off many of the characters, and get back to character studies. Emphasize a character's conflict with...anything/anyone a week,
with minor overlaps in story, make Claire go work in the DoubleMeat Palace,or whatever...progressing to a season finale where all the pieces fit together,and the characters unite to resolve whatever. Stop time-travelling. Get rid of Jessica Walters. Kill Claires mom. Drop the "family" crap, this aint "Dallas" or "Dynasty" Hiro loses his time-stopping power and becomes a modern samurai, or something. Kill off Ando.... -
This talkback is *killing* me!!
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Nov 24, 2008 4:00:03 PM CST
Everyone at next year's SDCC needs to wear "Remember Caitlin" sh
by spyguy
"Remember Caitlin" should be the rallying cry for all criticism lobbed against Tim Kring. So say we all?
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Damn you, Cutoff!
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This guy sounds like he has no clue how to tell a story. I read better ideas in any given Talkback than I see in his show. Maybe he has some kind of great business or technical skills that I don't know about, but in terms of building and guiding a storyline, the guy comes off as an idiot who is asleep at the wheel.
Kring alone is not to blame for this. Any exec who sat down with him in the first place and then greenlit him along with his show is accountable. The guy cannot justify his own storylines and constantly admits that he's always making big mistakes with his show. I have to wonder how his pitch meetings went. The guy is constantly on the defensive and disavowing decisions he made not months beforehand. And he runs the show? Dumb.
HEROES could and should be a good show. The premise is excellent. The execution is ham-fisted. It makes me sad. -
Nov 24, 2008 4:04:35 PM CST
Tim Kring could have continued origins in the second season!!!!
by nopix
He could have introduced new characters to start. But most importantly.....there was still plenty for our HEROES to learn by season 2!!!!! SO MUCH MORE MYTHOLOGY COULD HAVE BEEN CREATED AND IMPLEMENTED IN SEASON 2!!! The characters still had PLENTY TO FIGURE OUT!!!!
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it's the X-Men
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The premise is not the X-men. The premise is similar, but the X-men did not invent mutants or evolutionary attributes in either speculation or fiction.
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Kring, you're fired!
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"Dark Mohinder" isn't an oxymoron. An oxymoron is a self-contradictory statement, like "Military Intelligence." The word you're looking for is "Tautology."
"White Mohinder" would be an oxymoron. -
You didn't know what to do with these character after their origins? Do you not know how to tell a story? They don't end at the beginning! Even a five year old knows that!
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if you're a showrunner, you really need to have a series bible already written out or at least sketched out before you shoot a frame of film or hire one actor or BTS'er.
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prior to xmen comics the only pulp/comic that had humans born with extraordinary abilities was doc savage...everything else was as a cause of the individual being alien, using pills, magic, etc...it was the dawn of the atomic age, and they were the first supes that developed as a result of genetic mutations
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He would have ended with Batman Begins.
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doesnt the showrunner along with the staff create full biographical sketches of the main characters and basically sketch out an entire arc? isnt this a basic that one is taught in creative writing 101? could kring really have gotten this far in the biz without knowing this...or did he think that unlike his other shows, with this one, he could just wing it? lets take a look at elle for example...during the entirety of season 2, she was painted as a social retard, who was rarely allowed to leave the company's compound as a result of her inability to really control the use of her powers...yet, in the flashback show, she is shown as being capable of showing compassion and smarts in dealiing with sylar...they have also screwed up the arc's of sylar, hrg, mohinder...and fuck it, the entire world....
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In the promos they are acting like the eclipse was this big deal. When was there an eclipse besides in the logo? Or is this going to be one of those retroactive things?
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Two birds approach there. :)
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Kring's put his foot in his mouth a couple of times in the past few weeks, but I see nothing especially heinous about this statement. He's not saying that's the ONLY aspect of the superhero archetype that's interesting or that characters can't develop beyond that (depending on the character and the situation), just that origins are the part of the story he's interested in telling. And that doesn't mean he doesn't care about "character" or "plot," since an origin story can involve both. People are just interested in placing characters in certain situations, that's how storytelling works. I like Whedon, but if you want to use him as an example, how about the fact that couples are repeatedly torn asunder by death? It's not because that's what's "right" for the characters in each and every situation, but a lot of the stories he tells seem to be oriented in that direction because he finds something about it compelling.
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In exactly the way you set it up. As for Elle, I can deal with that retcon due to what HRG told her in Cautionary Tales, which heavily suggested mindwiping was on the menu whenever Elle was being tested.
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im so fucking confused
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Can we start getting 'Chuck' talkbacks? Cause 'Chuck' has met or exceeded expectations this season.
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they also had the eclipse during the whole hiro goes back to ancient japan...but they have confused how people got their powers so much that the eclipse started to feel like just a red herring plot device...now they bring it back...yet, it appears that at least claire had her powers long before the eclipse...the show is a convoluted mess
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Man, BSG is so fucking great.
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When Chuck is soooooo much better. Despite slapping the reset button in the season premiere, this show has rebuilt it's self stronger. So I guess it was worth it.
Maybe our boy Kring could learn from this. It's only ok to tear shit down as long as you have a plan to build it back up better. -
He said he's not primarily interested in doing more than an origin story and that he's no longer connected to the story. And the sad part is he never did. Creatively he's bankrupt. If he can't figure out a way to develop and grow these characters anymore than their beginnings he should not be the one running the show.
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I thought it got canceled with My Own Worst Enemy and Lipstick Jungle!
Boring, nothing to see here move along, move along! -
So, are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me? Because I don't get how your response contradicts what I said.
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I felt like it had degenerated my brain and if it weren't for the babes I wouldn't even have finished an episode. Am I missing something here?
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Aint gonna happen, but I'll just keep saying it cos I feel like it. Superior writing, perfect pacing, well balanced drama/humour and sci fi. Time travelling was ver disciplined. Superior fucking show to the fuckfest Heroes. But I still watch Heroes because of badass Noah and the sake of not giving up on something I liked at the beginning with a faint hope of things getting better. But after what Kring has now said, I have a feeling that this series will be cancelled otherwise why the fuck did Kring talk that way?
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do time travel!
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For phuk's sake, they already had The 9th Doctor AND The Master as members of the supporting cast of this show. But seriously, this show isn't as good as Supernatural and that show has probably 1/4th the budget. And as for slamming Whedon - who is not a favorite of mine - at least he's not a poseur like Russell T Davies is. Talk about a ham-fisted pseudo scifi writer. He's tied with L Ron for being a hack and a totally overrated one at that.
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turn to your fans for help - plain and simple...
this has worked well for other shows and it also buys you a lot of goodwill - cheap...
you set the universe up well enough - not perfectly, but good enough for the mass audience you have hooked - so ASK THEM what they want to see and cherry pick the best ideas...
I'm sure there's people just here on this site that have some GREAT ideas for you - and then there's a whole mainstream out there, who may not necessarily come to your blog or whatever you set up, but ideas are like viruses and a good enough idea will find its way to you - if you let it...
if you WANT to save this show (cuz it sounds like you're over it, like the rest of us) then this is your BEST shot... -
The title of the midseason finale, episode 13 to air December 15 was 'War' but has been switched to 'Duality'. The former title suggested an all-out throwdown between Pinehearst and Primatech. Now, who knows? Maybe it's like Freud - a cigar is just a cigar.
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Whedon re: how about the fact that couples are repeatedly torn asunder by death? It's not because that's what's "right" for the characters .....
I present to the the following quote -
Xander (to Buffy) : You ever think maybe the reason you haven't found a great relationship on the Hellmouth is because it's a Hellmouth?
This was from S5 and I think it is a very to the point example of why characters do not get to be happily ever after in the Buffyverse that sticks with the mythology of the show and is true to the characters.
Hey, Heroes is starting....
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And here we go...
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Perhaps he's revising his misunderstanding of Star Trek IV.
Anyway, what are we meant to take-away from Kring saying he can't connect with Heroes? It's his show, his work, and he's having writer's block? Strike's over dude, get back to work or move on and let someone else take over who can do the show justice.
In other news, yes Chuck is cool & has gotten better over time. The show found its voice, and is currently running with the ball that Heroes dropped.
Doctor Who is great when RTD isn't trying to do everything at once. Got to give him props for getting the show back on air (similar to props given to Rick Berman) but that's where the props end (again, like Rick Berman).
Supernatural rocks and I'll miss True Blood (thankfully coming back), Pushing Daisies (hope it gets its movie) and Dirty Sexy Money (was fun while it lasted). -
So the jury's out on whether this is going to rock.
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This is a show that will continue to drive its plot into a sloppy mess. The only way to get it on track is to set one or two more seasons and work toward a final ending. With a firm direction there is hope, with no end it sight it is forced to flounder forever and constantly give and take away powers to waste time.
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And SHUT THE FRAK UP, DAPHNE!
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Elle the snarkmeister.
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hates Heroes
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I sense a not-so-tight allegiance to Arthur as much as to herself and Sylar. Or am I wrong?
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it's still under the cool news tab - just got bumped off the left column.
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I was saying to myself that he is just playing along with Arthur because he has something up his sleeve and he is really planning on saving Claire. And that would make perfect sense. However, I have told myself this about 100 times for different characters and I now realize the problem is that no one thinks beyond the actions that they are performing at that exact moment. No one remembers the past and no one takes the future into account. There are NEVER any clever hidden agendas! Sylar has no wiser plans because HE'S A FREAKING IDIOT LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARACTER ON THE SHOW. This is a complete idiot plot and no one does anything that makes sense. This is frustrating beyond belief and the reason why viewers are dropping like crazy.
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She clearly has no reason to trust Arthur. It doesn't make sense. EVERYONE IS AN IDIOT!
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How did Mohinder get positioned on the wall like that?? Haahaa
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Remember the dream she had in the second episode of this season?
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still kicks more ass than anyone else.
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Elle was gonna kill HRG. KInda blows a hole, for now, in the 'naming Sylar's kid Noah' deal. She's got feelings, full-blown for Sylar.
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Take a look at season 2 and most of 3. Dip-diddly-damn-shit.
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that phrase has become as tired as first, jump the shark, pwned, etc.
Heroes sucks bad enough that it deserves better effort at trashing it -
The new catch phrase to replace the old "save the cheerleader" line.
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That's cool or whatever, but I was also referring to Angel, Firefly and Dr. Horrible. There might be logical in-universe explanations for all of those as well, but again, it's a recurring point of interest. And that's fine, I didn't mean to make this a thing against Whedon since I like all his stuff, I'm just saying a writer being particularly interested in a certain part of a story is natural.
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I've decided that either the staff of Heroes think they are brilliant or they think that their viewers are dumb. They keep doing these lame "twists" and act as if they are really big deals rather than stupid cliches that anyone could see coming from a mile away. Like Matt using the same trick his dad did to fool someone into seeing what they wanted, or knocking someone out a window before a commercial break as if we expect that character to die.
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Nov 24, 2008 8:51:10 PM CST
and they think we don't remember people from the future or the p
by jccalhoun
If someone from the future has his powers then we know that the powers come back because nothing that meddling time travelers can do will stop an eclipse from happening. The same thing goes for people who have lived for hundreds of years and lived through tons of eclipses...
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That's what happens when you have too large a cast. And they better not bring freakin' Maya back into the picture.
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and that Daphne's last name should be Locke because *surprise* I'm guessing she had leg troubles before she got her powers...
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when facing thugs in a foreign country: "I'm Canadian."
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Sure, that's cool. I just read your post and that line popped into my head is all.
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mustached or man daphne, but a crip!?
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He didn't know shit about superheroes to begin with, or how to tell a single solid storyline. He hired big comic book people and counted on name value, the geek fandom machine, viral marketing, and Internet hype to propel his production. He didn't bother to write anything half-decent. The show was shit after a couple episodes in Season 1. And he wants to blame geeks, the people he whored his show out to sans plot and with shameless pandering, instead of just DOING THE WORK TO MAKE A GOOD SHOW.
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Why does Whedon have to get brought up in any TV related talkback? Whedon's style seem to simply try to be clever and witty rather than natural and compelling.
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Maybe I am an idiot or psychotic. I believe that this season has been much better than the last.
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You might want to take a gander up there in the middle of the TalkBack; you might be surprised to see that one of your anti-"Whedonite" brethren brought the dude up in the first place. As for me, I brought him up in an attempt to defend the show you're ostensibly here to talk about, which even a casual glance at any of my posts should have helped you figure out.
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But this time, even she was done in by the meh-ness of the episode. What would be good? If at the precise moment the eclipse is over, Noah is about to shoot them, and both get their powers back an instant before.
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Where's the SCC talkback? That show continues to get better each week.
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Sarcasm? Cause that sounds exactly like something Kring would do.
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He didn't like Elle calling him a girl. :)
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mediocre episode
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Its sad that Prison Break is a better show at this point. Why does the media care and giv so much love to Heroes still? I mean all we ever hear is how bad it is and how fucking stupid Kring is but nothing changes and people still nut over it. Its not LOST by any means. Bring back Adam Monroe at least if your going to have such plotholes!!
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God it sucks.
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not the same as hiring "big comic book people"...he hired sale too, but sale never did script work, despite being the only comic book guy on staff who really ever created anything original with "billy 99"...loeb has worked on other's creations...as did everyone else from the comics world that were put on staff...im sorry, but handing script work over to guys that worked on supes and other company stuff does not for creativity make...ya, loeb has some very creative shit on his resume, but recently, his work has been anything less than stellar...kring then tosses loeb and one of his best writer, alexander, under the bus...and what is he left with? a bunch of kids who either owe their entire career to him, or are happy not having to go back to face the grind of for hire work in the comix biz...this does not make for creativity...it makes for guys trying to make sure they keep kring happy so they dont lose their jobs...and as we have all pointed out, kring has absolutely no clue as to where to take this series...i still recall kring talking about script ideas that he had during the first year, where his staff had to tell him that they had already been done in comics...the dude didint even bother to do any research at all...this is lazy...bring back fuller...get him to hire ellis...and make this show the craziest thing ever seen on network tv
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It had maybe three truly good episodes. People were so jazzed about a real live show about superheroes, golly gosh gee that they blinded themselves to the fact that the show was pablum. I WILL WAIT FOR YOU ALL TO ADMIT IT. I WILL WAIT THROUGH ETERNITY.
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You can give it to Warren Ellis, but given the amount of sheer gutting this show needs in terms of cast and story to really WORK, it would be easier for Ellis to just set up his OWN superhero show on ABC.
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To the press, the fans, everyone. They touted Loeb and Sale as their vanguard of authenticity. In reality, Loeb was crap and so was Kring. This show has been a cynical marketing calculation since Day 1.
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And mithrandir16, that's exactly what I'm hoping for next week. I want Elle to go out of this show on her shield, or at least transported by Stephen Canfield, VortexGuy, to a safe place just in case they want her back down the road.
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and do it in spectacular fashion...just as he did in stormwatch...then he would create a series that would blow everyone's socks off...it wouldnt be heroes...and it wouldnt last more than 2 weeks, as most stuff that he would write wouldnt get past the censors...but it would be brilliant...and i agree that loeb was a marketing tool...sale not as much (except to us geeks)...gotta tell you, the reason i keep rooting for the show is the fact that sale keeps getting steady work...he really is one of the nicer guys in the biz
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talkbacks - this one & the Firefly one - where "witty" has become a bad thing.
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for the next arc. That counts for something, at least. He's a writer/consulting producer, so it's unclear how much of the latter he'll be able to exert, even if Kring is gone when the show resumes in February.
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The problem was Tim Kring had a great idea for a superhero origin story, but had no idea where to take the characters from there, so he took it in this uninspired downward spiral.
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Who needs DVR or live broadcast when we've got TORRENTS!
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Nov 24, 2008 10:11:28 PM CST
Ellis's Stormwatch and Authority were anything but brilliant
by jmyoung666
or terribly original. He's just a less talented Grant Morrison.
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is to live up to my promise that the upcoming episodes of the show are fantastic."
Kring promised this? I know entertainment is totally subjective, but c'monnnnnnnnnn!
As for "I think you’ll agree we’re really on a roll" - who's agreeing with this? -
he wrote one of the few comic series praised by moore...the american...
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Next Wave and Doktor Sleepless are really cool.
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With the Daphne reveal that she's a cripple (shades of Locke). That I didn't see coming. I thought that because of her super-speed, that once that was gone, her aging process would kick-start and we'd see her as really old.
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There was one time I vented like I never did before. But in light of the show's breathtaking fall, and K-Bell's own promising movie career, I've reached the acceptance (read: 5th) stage of my dealing with her limited time on the show. It's time for her to move on. If they kill Elle off, it will be one more mistake on top of a mountain of them that was made this year. But the train has left the station, I think; Heroes may be a dead show walking. What good would it be, then, of keeping Elle around if the show's really in the endgame of its time on the air.
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Glad to know I'm not the only one reading that. And Turketron, if you say "Watchmen are over" one more time, I'm going to find you and kick you.
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full rebellion over the possibility of Elle indeed biting it. Post after post of people saying they're done with the show if this is how Kristen is written out. Which is a testament to how much fucking ass she kicked on it, I'd like to believe.:)
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Plz. Thx.
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Well, tonight's episode was Blah!!!! Sylar's changed from the harbinger of death and the bane of all evil in season 1 to being even more calculated by killing Maya's brother in cold blood while pretending to be good in season 2 to becoming a patsy in season 3 that doesn't want to kill anymore... Then after taking Claire's powers and saying he could never kill her, he goes back to kidnap her for his new father. The Elle who shares a plane ride with Claire and seems to have a bond with her etc. joins Sylar to go after her.. His behavior changes are just stupid..
Then you have the Heroes writers stealing the cocoon sequence from "Species" where Mohinder falls out the cocoon naked after stealing form The Fly..Who knows where his character will go next..
Last but not least, if Peter had his powers taken away, why hasn't the eclipse given Peter back his powers at least temporarily while the eclipse was happening and the rest lost their powers. -
Even if Peter's powers did come back, I think only the empathy would. Since no one else at the moment has any powers for him to copy he's still basically useless int he power department.
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everyone else hide your eyes...in epi 12, hrg really does bite it..at the hands of claire...wonder when the sex tape of hayden and milo will surface
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I echo whomever stated their desire to go back in times and rub it in the faces of the people who said Heroes was as good as Lost.
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It all jus went str8 to hell in the Season 1 finale. I knew right from the beginning that it would be a horrible show afterwards b/c KRING wrote the Season 1 finale, and the guy is terrible at idea-to-screen translations. I dont think Heroes will make it past Season 3. And if they make it to season 4 its because Kring was dropped as show creator. He reportedly didnt even write the Series Bible until after the Writers Strike, which was after the horrible Season 2. We need a cool superhero serialized CABLE SHOW. Not Network show. Network shows are so limiting that its unfair to the story. We dont get to see what we want to see which is cussing, sex, more superpowers and good storylines. Im looking forward to TNTs new show Leverage. So someone please fix Heroes. Its a good concept with so much potential but fails to deliver.
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Not just through his shitty writing, but by his contempt for the people who got him where he is.
Can this man epic-fail at life anymore thoroughly? Or has he peaked in his fucked-uppedness?
Next week will surely tell all. -
Damn, i mean you are either Bell's agent, Bell herself or just a fan that really hopes that if you suck up long enough you will get a date with her. If the the latter, well WAKE UP: IT AIN'T HAPPENING!
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No, Bell isn't whatever saving grace has been left to Heroes. Promising movie career? Yeah right...
The "promising" remains to be seen...
But seriously, enough with the Bell promoting. WE GET IT ALREADY! Bell is your obsession... Now go out, and get a life! -
Elle has had that stick-face-whooping coming for a loong time...
HRG is da man! -
Bacci40, do you reckon she wore the cheerleader costume and called him Uncle Peter? Cause that's just nasty.
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...and their muddled, boring stories which we will repeat over and OVER. "Heroes" lost me after the first season, and now I'm glad I stopped watching. Kring is a moron who doesn't deserve the seasons he's been given. Yeah, they've canceled Pushing Daisies but this dreck is still on the air. Nothing makes sense anymore.
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Last night's episode was quite solid.
But please... Enough with Retard-Hiro.
Tha cute and nerdy style might work in Japan, but not elsewhere. Now give us Future-Hiro, and someone kill off the characters who are useless!!! (Yes, Elle.. that goes for you too!) -
I was unclear about their scene together. Was it a reveal that Tracy has in fact been working for Angela? And what's up with Elie turning bad again? As a fellow Talkbacker pointed out above, it's pointless and frustrating to assume that the characters have hidden agendas and secret plans -- it's hardly logical what the characters do, and the motivation for most of them is baffling.
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Parkman. The dude who plays him has actually been quite likable in other shows, but the Parkman character just cries out to be bitch-slapped every time he speaks.And let's get real. The 1st season wasn't "great" at all. I remember may a TBer here bemoaning the endless Dohinder narration on top of the glacial pace of character introduction. It wasn't until Company Man till things clicked, followed by Five Years Gone. Then we all got the massive letdown in the finale.As for Chuck, it works because it doesn't set the bar at a level it can't reach. You won't see any self-congratulatory BS like that Heroes thing. Hot chicks, geeky camaraderie, some humor, some action, and an underlying sweetness just make it a fun way to kill an hour.
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ZeroCorpse had it right. Wow, Firefly was such a good show that NO ONE watched it when it was on. It was such a good show that when they made a movie about it, NO ONE went and saw it. Oh, but wait, it was FOX's fault, right? Tell yourselves that when you jerk off to the the Buffy musical and think "The Body" was the best moment of television ever. No one ever calls Joss Whedon out for ripping off the many storylines from comics he did for his shitty shows.
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I lived there for 8 years and its a cool liberal hippie town surrounded by Kansas and not corn farms like Daphnes.. How lame, why use the most popular town in Kansas when your going to completely take all liberites of what its like. Fuck Kring!!! Kill the fucking show off.
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As someone else already pointed out, we know from the visits to the future and the past that these powers aren't permanently gone. Honestly I thought it was well established that people had powers before the last eclipse. Didn't Nathan fly out of his car before the eclipse in season 1? Why are we pretending this is significant now? The only thing that might change is new people with powers--as if we'd met everyone who had them before. I liked Daphne being crippled, that for a change was a nice twist even though it's kind of superficial unless the powers aren't coming back--which contradicts what we've seen already. I dislike how inconsistent Elle has been--though this bitchy shallow girl is who she was when we met her (hey, reverse development, gotta love that!). Sylar used to be dangerous even without his powers, I'm not sure why suddenly this season it's his powers that make him evil. Bad writing? No, surely not! Also, is it just me, or is Peter/Milo's dead lip thing getting worse? It's noticeable every time we see him now and I half expect him to drool as he talks. I don't remember him looking this much like Sylvester Stallone after he'd been punched even when he played Rocky Jr. Are they deliberately shooting him from an angle that emphasizes it or does the condition worsen? That's too bad if the latter.
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I can NOT stand that frikkin Asian chick with the Aussie accent! She the one from that BSG telemovie? Coz she sucked in THAT too - and her suckage makes me hate the characters she plays, who I might otherwise have given more of a chance...
But her aside, what a cool episode! Glad to see this show (finally!) coming into its own - it always showed it had the potential, but damn we had to get through a lot of "meh.." to get there! -
It's a good show. It has a nice slow-burn dramatic pace, and it's definitely not about all-out action (although there are episodes every so often with lots of action). Nice twist with Riley, John's girlfriend. I wonder what her and Jesse's plan for John is all about.As for Weaver, I now believe she's a good Terminator. Her mission is to help reform Skynet so it and the Terminators of the future can co-exist with humanity peacefully.
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Did I hear Nathan tell Peter that the first time he used his powers was during the eclipse? Because we saw him fly when that truck ran his car off the road, paralyzing his wife. What in the fuck...Also, I kept hoping Jack Bauer would show up and wreck shit during the scenes with The Hatian's brother. Funniest moment last night was when Sylar and Elle confronted HRG and found they didn't have any powers.
Tim Kring... you, sir, are an idiot. -
*avoids bacci40's "want a better spoiler?" post* ;)
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than NBC's. And more spoilerish, truthfully:http://tinyurl.com/5m63up
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Nov 25, 2008 8:22:29 AM CST
Tim Kring needs to know being "cute" does not pay his bills
by dallasgoodbar
Effective immediately I am boycotting "Heroes" since I am one of the dipshits he spoke about that bothered to watch the live airing because I cared enough to worry about their ratings. Well, that is over as of now! I encourage others to follow suit because it's clear Tim Kring won't get the message that what he said so flippantly will not be so easily forgotten. Rest assured: "HEROES" WILL BE CANCELLED BY THE END OF THIS SEASON.
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as long as you do it under a talkback handle.
Dipshits!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -
... is not the man for the job, but don't expect him to be fired soon. He is the CREATOR of Heroes, not just a writer!!!
The big problem is that while we whine in here (and let's face it, nobody at NBC gives a shit about a talkback), we should be writing letters to NBC with our complaints and ideas about the show!
And yes, the writing in Heroes needs (a lot of) new blood. -
DON'T expect from a superheroes-comicky show to make sense. At least not realistically. I mean do you pepole read lots of comicbooks that are realistic and their plot makes complete, logical sense?
Yeah, i thought so... -
Every week you come in here pissing and moaning about how shitty it is. So STOP WATCHING. It IS shit so let it fucking die.
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it doesn't matter if I stop watching the show or not. My choices are not reflected in the stats.
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Mediaweek says it's the fastest-declining series in prime time TV.
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Why do you ignore this show?
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Heroes is down almost 40% from season 2. And if Kring won't fall on his sword for this, then somebody from NBC should assist him with that proverbial sword.
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they are doomed
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halfway through the first season and dropped it. From waht I hear it just got worse from there.But if I were still watching it, this would be where I dropped it after the creator says even he is no longer interested and then insults fans. Remember when everyone thought this show was better than Lost? At least Lost never insulted fans or lost the interest of it's creators. That's because they were smart enough not to answer every question in the second season.
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If ever a show deserved one on this site it is that one. WTF?
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I still watch heroes and think it has actually gotten alot better from last season... recently anyway. Think Heroes biggest problem is that they gave us the cake at the beginning of the series. Syler and Peter are far too powerful and it is only their own sheer stupidity that has kept them from taking over the world with ease.
The writers knew this, and said "oh crap we have to do something about this", but rather than take the time to write a deep story arc for all the characters, they did some quick fixes and are haphazardly writing new material along the way... some works some doesn't. The inconsistency of it all is what is killing the series for me. And why on earth can't Hiro and Ando interract with the "main" team? Why does their story always have to be separate? Bert and Ernie didn't *always* stay separate from the rest of sesame street.
Claire is getting boring... we need to move away from her a bit. Old dad needs to finally choose a side... he didn't really choose.. his company just became irrelevant. His motivations feel contrived at this point. oh and can we please get creative with some of the powers? That black hole guy could have been genius stuff. We need more subtlty...Why can't Elle do simpler things like cause heart attacks or expand into electro magnetic stuff... after all if she can generate electricity, she can easily adatp that into magnetic fields either with tools or by biology... lots of room for a bigger story arc there. Take some time to explore stuff.
If this series ends with a giant squid, I'll be really disappointed ;)
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I'm calling it now. Not unlike Buffy in Season 3 (or was it 4), though to her credit she sorted herself out.
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More people are able to get into serialized TV because if you miss an episode, or haven't been watching from the beginning, you can catch up on the web. Also you don't have to be home to see it and can record it with your DVR. You could do the same with your VHS but tapes have very limited space and it was a real hassle if you had several weeks of shows to view. Finding the right episode on the right tape could be a bitch. With the DVR you can instantly see which is the first episode you need to watch and you can watch them all back to back with no need to fast forward through a pile of tapes for the next episode.On the other hand, I think what Kring was getting at is, before DVRs and the internet, the only way to watch serialized tv was sitting in front of the tube while it was airing. It was appointment TV. You had to make sure you were watching or you would miss it. Those that were into it, in order to keep up with the story, would have to make a point of watching the broadcast (complete with commercials). Or watch that VHS tape soon after it aired lest you or your roommate accidentally record over it.One way more people have access to each of the show's episodes, not just "this week's"; the other way more people are watching "live" and the ratings are higher.
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Where do his portals go to? The assumption was it would kill you. HRG assumed it would kill Sylar. Maybe, or maybe they just go to another place or dimension or time. Maybe the guy he killed isn't really dead but just stuck somewhere. It would have been great to see Sylar or Claire (or both) get sucked into the portal and have to find a way home.
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I read it as he was really taking a shot at those who only use the internet to watch tv. People who are "too cool" to watch a tv show the old-fashioned. (Sarcastically) "I guess we're all just a bunch of dumb dipshits because we're not hip to the new technology". Or maybe I just read too much into it.
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you talentless piece of crap
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He created something that was far beyond his capabilities to manage and now every move he makes only adds to his self destruction. Watching all this unfold is just so... sad. From his pre-season enthusiasm born out of complete ignorance of his limitations and failures to all the hordes of critical/angry commentary to the non dip sh_ts who have "given up" on the show and removed Heroes from their DVRs to that obnoxiously lame apology above.... it's all so pathetic and sad. It's tragic. I pity the man. The smart thing for him to do (the best thing, really) would be to leave the show and save himself from further pain.
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Anyone else rofl during Claire's "training" scene? What the fuck is going through a writers head when they say "ya know what, having Claire bash a 2x4 against a wall for an hour should take care of her character development"
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaha
i laughed so hard when i was watching that.
kring u r such a moron -
He says he's excited about "Fugitives" and it's going to better...that's what he said about "Villains"...which has been just as bad as "Generations".
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She went from being completely useless in a fight to being able to hit someone with a stick. Watch out villains or Claire will thump you.
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needs a witchblade style weapon that draws away her healing ability but makes her kick some ass..not necessarily something evil, but just enough that she has to think hard about hurting/killing someone for more power or making herself vulnerable.
and get rid of the lame stick in the head kills her shit. -
and I have no idea who these Kring and Whedon characters everyone talks about are. Is Kring the one with the fireballs? Is Whedon the Black Hole guy or the Geico apeman guy from season one? I'm joking.
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why is the black guy who cancels out other Heroes powers called the High Asian? He looks a lot less Asian than Tiger Woods. And what is he high on? Negater, please!
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SHREDDERRR, GET BEBOP AND ROCKSTEADY AND GO TO EAAARTTH. THOSE TURRTLES ARE BEEEING A NUUUUISANCE ROWRRR.
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I just arrived to this talkback and read or skimmed all the posts. Media Messy's idea of dividing the cast into a good team and a bad team and then doing self-contained episodes is interesting. But won't people complain that the idea is riped off from about 75% or all super-hero team comics ever?Also worth commenting upon if only to bitterly mock is anyone who comes here, reads, skims or skips over 50 to a hundred comments from people discussing the show and then asks "do people still watch this show?" Do posters realize how illiterate that question is? you just read/skimmed or skipped a hundred people with opinions about the show, obviously they watch the show.Because no one would come to a talkback and comment on a show they don't watch. That would be a level of stupid well beyond illiterate.
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...that freak out over every lapse in continuity, contradiction of past events, forgotten detail or dropped plot thread... you're So lucky you didn't grow up with the '60s Weisinger edited superman family of comics... or Claremont and Byrne's somewhat popular run on X-men in the '70s. Those early "New X-Men" issues had story lines and developments that I waited 50-100 issues to see resolved before I gave up and realized it was never going to happen.Not all superhero comics have tight continuity or logical story constructions. In fact the whole point of the Crisis On Infinite Earths was to discard "too much continuity" and let stand alone issues be fun again. Maybe Heroes is that kind of comic.
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Run overly bleached blond speedster girl, run!So The Haitians brother is Lucas Cage? one half of Powerman and Iron Fist? C'mon Kring have the balls to introduce a white martial artist as the haitian's brothers partner. If you do that i might have some respect for you.
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someone asked why don't people watch Lost of BSG instead?Well, uh, Lost doesn't return until January 21st and BSG is higher their cable on some systems, not included with basic cable. Heroes is on one of the big three free broadcast networks: you barely have to have a working Tv and a coathanger antenna to watch it.The people who think that everyone has SciFi Channel and BBC America to watch BSG and Dr. Who are just as snobbish and elitist as Kring supposedly is for thinking everyone has a DVR or high speed internets.
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...watch this show crash and burn on and off-screen. in an old rolling stone interview, just after season 1, kring mocked Lost and some of the directions it had taken. i am of the camp that feels Lost is one of the greatest shows that we've ever had, and even if it wasn't, he really had no right to say what he did.
well, it seems as though kring just can't shut the fuck up, and i for one hope he never does because its just too much fun watching this prick ruin an amazing show AND his career/fanbase all at once. it's just as sad/entertaining as hearing about the latest hollywood spoled girl going down in flames.
some guys just don't deserve all the wonderful luck and rewards they receive. -
In the early episodes from season one it was clearly shown that Hiro Nakamura had a job and worked for a paycheck. They were totally ripping off Marvel's Hiro For Hire!
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I think I saw the video that went with the announcement. During it, Tim Kring shuffles over the microphone in his diaper and bounces up and down shouting "Hewoes! Hewoes!". I was not surprised by this.
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I think her rear end is amazing. seems to me the show is having trouble keeping her looking young and innocent. Her scenes with her dad on this week's episode were pseudo-creepy. That was a typical sexual tension swapped for aggression scene ... the only thing missing was the making out part at the end. creeeeeeppy.
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Those things were resolved, mostly in the 90's, in spin-offs or annuals or one-shots, only to be retconned a year later by another writer in some other book no one was reading.
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And no I won't apologize...........leapfrogging plots to a characters story is a fancy way of saying he has run out of ideas.......lame.
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Run out of ideas then secluded retirement.
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I'm getting tired of it being the ONLY thing that tethers characters together on this show. We're supposed to meet u because it's in the comic book written by the guy who saw the future! I'm getting tired of it.
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Tethers CERTAIN characters together on this show.
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Heroes sucks BIG TIME!
I really liked the first episodes. This was in a time I thought they had a goal for the show. Right now I think this is a huge fake package. Now we all see why LOST is the better show (something the 'fans' argued about as Heroes started). I think Kring is a dipshit because he isn't able to give the people an intelligent show. Instead he is producing small parts of confusing stories and put them together to an episode. Sorry Mr. Kring... superpowers make no story. Even it is fun watching them in action I think the fans deserve some intelligent storytelling. That's why there are good comic writers and bad comic writers out there... and guess which group has the most members?
With this kind of Powers btw. the plot is more stupid each week because with powers like time travel and freezing time and stuff... everything is possible and why should anybody watch the show anymore when a powered guy can change every bad move happening in the story. Bad bad writing... dipshit.
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I just think she ought to be in better shape for a girl of her age. But then I feel the same way about Scarlett Johannsen, who is going to look simply sloppy in years to come. You watch. Each to their own, I guess.
The scenes with Noah were a bit creepy, but then technically he's not her father...
I was convinced that Noah would accidently drive a piece of wood through her chest, imagining her to invincible. Would have made it more emotive than what they went with. -
*insert beavis&butthead laughter*
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some basic facts...season 3 blew chunks...and much of the show from season 1-3, if you take away flash backs and forwards, is just of people walking around or calling for the idiot doctor...now lost did do some smart things...like cut down the number of episodes and hire legitimate talent from the comic book industry...the other stuff it did correctly was to borrow liberally from classics of the literary and comic book world (and acknowledge that fact) heroes problem is that it does the same, yet has a showrunner that denies it...heroes other problem is that, as pointed out by pennsy, the showrunner never wrote a show bible...so outside of the first season, there was absolutely no plan....big mistake, and they are paying for it right now....wanna save the show??? one word....LESBIANS....LOTS AND LOTS OF LIPSTICK LESBIANS
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Heroes is going in, but if I'm being honest, it's better than most of the shit that makes top rated television in the good ols US of A. Fair enough, here in blighty we only get what our limited budgets can afford, but given the ammount of cash thrown at TV over there, you'd think there'd be some better quality control. Heroes just needs a strong hand on the tiller to get her through the hard passage. Theres a lot still to love there.
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And just a grade A asshole. A buddy of mine who works construction had to measure his office once, and when he spoke to Kring directly, Kring threw a hissy fit. Apparently, blue-collar folks are too far beneath the genius that is Tim Kring.
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For every 5 minutes of Heroes we see, there are 10 minutes worth of commercials. I DVR the show so I can fast forward through the commercials.
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just awful... someone kill them all now while the eclipse is happening. Kring lost his 'abilities' long ago.
I am enjoying T:TSSC tho. I think I'm developing some odd fascination with Shirley Manson.
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http://tinyurl.com/5es4ua
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..."Unbreakable: The Series" would have been so much better than "4400: With a Budget"
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How bout the heroes decide to fight crime? Do some actual hero work? How bout Hiro and Peter actually build towards becoming those future bad ass versions of themselves? How bout a competant villain who comes up with a scheme that really challenges the heroes? How bout the heroes do come out to the public?
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The show is actually more fun to write about when it blows, but last night was actually the first time in weeks that that was the case. Anyway, if you miss having a reliable place every week to vent/discuss, feel free to check it out: http://www.collegehumor.com/article:1765320
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No tired plot devices like future disasters that have to be prevented, no future paintings tell us what is going to happen. That should have stayed in Season 1.The Heroes get discovered and have to go on the run from the goverment who send a team to hunt them down. How does the public respond? How does Hiro and Ando, Peter and Nathan, HRG and Claire, and Sylar react to this? There's alot of potential there. It's not very hard to think about Tim Kring!
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you're absolutely right. I used to think this was going to evolve into a more traditional superhero yarn, and that thwarting the nuking of NYC would just be the impetus that brought them together. I guess time has proven me wrong, but nevertheless, they need to quit repeating themselves. No more viruses. No more future paintings of a cracked earth. Smaller stories, please. As for Kring, I always wanted to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, but these latest quotes are pretty damning. Guy is a douchebag. I really wish I never started liked this thing he created, but goddamnit, now I'm attached.
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Nov 25, 2008 8:27:42 PM CST
I agree Heroes is shit but it's better than a lot of shit on TV
by damien chowder
And on the subject of Elle! Get rid of her are you CRAZY Kring!?
Freaking make it the Elle & Sylar show and everyone else dies. -
cuz that is exactly what is going to be done...but big deal...now its totally like x-men
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If you use time travel as a crutch to get you out of the stooooooopid corners that you write yourself into, you might as well do the "it was all a dream" stuff, too, Dipshit.Watch Moffatt's episode of Dr. Who: "Blink" Masterful writing with Time Travel at it's core, told intelligently, self-consistently, not a mine-field in sight.But if you are a dipshit hack who calls your audience dipshits, and then thinks that (because you still believe they really are dipshits) that they will fall for your lame apology (as well as your lame stories), then you are a dipshit.And if you can take a show as great as Heroes was in Season 1, utterly destroy it in an abbreviated season 2, and then call your fans dipshits in the middle of low-rated season 3, then you are a dipshit.
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Sorry for the delay in response, it's that dastardly eleven hour time difference I'm working under.
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So while I agree with you that she should stay, it's not going to happen. Her final episode looks to be December 8th, not next week, as I feared. She's gonna be busy with promotion of that quintet of projects; Serious Moonlight (w/Meg Ryan and Tim Hutton), Fanboys - finally on 2/6, Astro Boy, Couples Retreat (w/Favreau and Vaughn), and her centerpiece movie next spring/summer, When in Rome. Plus she's probably gonna be filming a few more because folks know that KB is quality. She was only supposed to be on for 5 episodes, which turned into 8. I hope Elle doesn't get killed off, rather goes into hiding, somehow as the war between Pinehearst and Primatech begins. A photo that has been leaked out there doesn't suggest that she'll be vertical, though. The fanbase is already revved up, though and vowing to drop the show like a bad habit if Elle dies. Check out E's Watch With Kristin comments section for proof.
Really, next to Cristine Rose, nobody's brought their 'A' game this season on the show more than Bell. Coleman's been almost invisible until now, not Panettiere, not Pasdar, not Forster, not McDowell. If Elle is killed, then I'm done with the show myself. A last straw deal; if she survives, then I'll stick around until the end of the season. Kristen Bell's done her bit for king and country ($1 to Star Trek 6). She made me believe Sylar and Elle COULD be a couple. Something I never thought would be possible until last week. But she pulled it off. Syelle/Ellar, baybee! :) I am a hopeless KB homer; we all have our weaknesses. But she's been the reason I've hung in there for the second season in a row. Her ultimate future is movies, and let's just hope to heck she comes back to TV one day. At least there's still Gossip Girl. -
Almost forgot about that one. She even kicks ass in video gaming. :)
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Lena Heady just gets better and better in that role--damn.
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Never mind that '2' bullfrak, hope all's well with ya.
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Did you see the final numbers for last night's episode? Just 1.8/5 in the demo, and less than 4.6 million viewers. And it's going to Fridays month after next. Game, set, match.
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it is a quality show, fair shake for scifi on Fox is not worth betting on--but in this case it is a loss leader for the cinema feature, so may last a bit longer --I hope!
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http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2008/11/cbs-developing.html. CBS had every single one of its primetime shows in the top 50 weekly Nielsen ratings for the week ending Sunday. They had the good sense to bring their shows back after the strike, something none of the other 4 networks did. That's why there OWNING this season.
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But they need to keep the brand name out there as long as they can because of 'Salvation'. It's a no-brainer to just burn off the remaining episodes.
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And that's saying something most foul about how they've fucked Hiro's character the fuck up. :(
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That would make one hella t-shirt, actually.
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Sorry for Kring: Oh, hell, no.
And as for the "Heroes is better shit than any other shit..."
DAMN... remember two years ago, when the plots were blowing geeks minds... there has to be a reason that shit sucks now -
I'm well thank you. How are you?
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TSCC just amped up even more now that Riley was revealed to be working with the Aussie chick. FRINGE, meanwhile, had a guy killed by razor-sharp butterflies.
TERMINATOR: TSCC FTW.
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and learning girl. By the way, what ever happened to them? (honestly can't remember)How you enjoying Peter's Irish girlfriend?If you think it's dragging, imagine not watching them back-to-back but having to wait at least a week between episodes?
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What say you about her? :)
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like "rational talkback" or "military intelligence".
"Maya can act" is just a fucking falsehood. -
I'll tell you why I stopped watching HEROES. (BTW I use a DVR and know how to watch a show in order of airing). The first season was compelling stuff, but the finale was anticlimactic. The heroes never bonded together to fight off a villain. They just all ended up at the same spot at the same time. Ugh. Season Two was a meandering mess. There was no clear direction, and the characters weren't being used effectively. I stopped watching. I decided to give Season Three an opportunity to recapture me as a viewer, so I gave the premiere a chance ... but I only made it through the first hour. It seemed to drag on forever, it was meandering, and there was seemingly no point in sight. You see, Season One at least had a sense of impending doom, that these people were on the road to doing something great, and if they didn't come through, then it was all over. And yet in Season Three, one hour into it, there was still no sense of purpose! It was not compelling or engaging in the slightest. Characters were still underused. They were speaking not to propel the story forward, but simply to spout the writer's words. I could ascertain no direction or point to the whole thing, and so gave up. I will not watch Heroes again, I'm sorry. I have better things to do now, like eating cornflakes and watching the birds fly past my window. Thanks for Season One though, really. I liked it. It was like a good novel: I couldn't wait to turn the next page.
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My wife finished off her degree studies, and finally had time for TV: we watched Season 1 on DVD and she couldn't hardly stand to wait for the Season 2 DVDs. We started into those (I had already seen half of S2) and she got so bored by halfway thru that we just gave up. Watching Claire going from helping to save the world in S1 to using her powers to trick her way onto the cheer squad so she had a plausible lie for her father and could date that dweeb--we just looked at each other: "WTF?". It was pure torture for me to sit thru those S2 episodes again.Tim "Dipshit" Kring didn't incentivize me to give him another chance with his recent comments that clearly show his disdain for the viewers, and for his "victim" mentality: "time travel is a mine field". If it is too hard for you to do, get someone who can do it. Lot's of people have done time travel successfully.
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A while back didn't you meet Kristen Bell in real life and had your picture taken with her? You still have that online? I'd like to see what she looks like in normal circumstances. I only every see her on "Heroes"
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You know, I think they used that quote on the DVD cover.
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He oughtta tie up all those loose ends he's so afraid to touch. I'm insulted that he thinks we don't notice the huge holes left by characters that simply disappear. "Hi, I'm Peter, the super compassionate character, except for when I lose my girlfriend in a horrible alternate future concentration camp. Instead of trying to find her I just pretend she never existed." Yeah, that's consistent.
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....another reason to not like this shitty show. There are so many reasons. Shit writing, lame characters, terrible acting, Sylar, Sylar, Sylar, Petrelli, that cheerleader, the guy who plays Sylar etc.
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Just throwing the idea out there.
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...and I wish I could get that hour of my life back. That was the biggest bunch of bullshit calling itself a television show. And they have the nerve to cancel MY OWN WORST ENEMY and keep this show on? And CHUCK isn't perfect, but at least it's entertaining and going somewhere. Unlike HEROES.
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;) Because there was some concern lodged by us that it might not be once you saw that season 2 was the redefinition of a sophomore jinx.
From the preview I saw of S7, 24 has a Die Hard 4 vibe. But every show that took off because of the strike has suffered a no-fewer than 25% decline in its audience from the prior season. If what I'm hearing about next Monday's (or the 12/8 episode) of Heroes is true, then I will outdo Jim Carrey as The Grinch Who Got Christmas (or should that be Elle?) Stolen From Him. -
the reason why DVRs are bad for serialized shows is because he thinks fewer people watch the show live as a result, and because advertisers really only cares about the live ratings. Whether people watch it on DVR, online, or via interactive back tattoo is good to know, but not as lucrative. I hate Kring -- i think he's a bitter, mediocre writer (and an idiot for using "viewer" and "dipshit" in the same sentence no matter what), but it is true... a viewer offline doesn't count as much as a viewer watching it live, so that's why it DVRs could be viewed as hurting Heroes.
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Mr. Incredible, last Monday's episode summed up the whole season; the potential was there for fireworks, but it fell flatter than a Rachael Ray-cooked pancake,
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Sorry, but that isn't what Kring was saying. He was saying that people who have DVR's can't figure out how to watch the episodes in the correct order, and this screws up a show that relies on its serialized nature. He wasn't referring to ratings.
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Kring was talking about! Too stupid to even watch shwos in the right order.( hehehe I'm just kidding of course, Kring is an idiot )
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Hang on, who the hell is writing the comic !
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Not only for his remarks but also for his terrible handling of this show. This show had (notice that I use that word because there isn't no turning back) the potential to become a classic. So much to work with and the creator doesn't give a hoot on all levels. Too bad. No amount of apologizing will help it.
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Me too buddy.....me too....
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So I called Kring and he told me they were going to explain that in a previous episode but never got around to it and now have leapfrogged it and have no intention of going back to it because they have enough to deal with. Then he called me a sap and a dipshit and I am ruining serialized tv by paying attention to stuff that happens and remembering other stuff that happens. He said the only true way to watch TV is simply stare at the pretty people and moving colours and to not worry about things making sense.
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...and his stupid show.
No wait... I'm sorry. What I meant to say was, "Screw Kring and his stupid show."
This kind of crap makes me glad I never bothered to watch this P.O.S. -
You never watched it and yet you know it's a "P.O.S."? Wow. Have fun following the crowd.
Dipshit. -
Dec 01, 2008 12:39:22 PM CST
They guy who plays Arthur (Robert Forster) is awful as an actor
by indyjonez100
Just terrible, they couldn't get someone with a bigger name to come on here and play the villain. I think I may be done with Heroes.
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I believe your ire to the stupidity of Peter's actions is the "minefield" of time-travel Kring mentioned. Sure, Peter going back in time to the present to stop his brother "by any means necessary" is very dramatic until one takes a second to think that maybe, with such a unique and powerful tool, there might have been another option (like, perhaps, take Nathan to the future and show him the consequences of his actions).But then again, maybe that lack of logic runs in the family; going to extremes instead of just using your power to persuade someone. You'll see what I mean in the episode "Villains".
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