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HEROES Gives Writers Jeph Loeb And Jesse Alexander The Boot!!
I am – Hercules!!
Jeph Loeb and Jesse Alexander, who (were one to judge from the season-two "Heroes" DVD set) appeared to be Tim Kring's chief lieutenants in the "Heroes" writer's room, have left the show.
From Variety:
Both scribe-producers had been with the show since its first season and were known to have led the day-to-day production operation under the direction of creator/exec producer Tim Kring.
Loeb has known Kring since the pair worked together on the screenplay for 1987's "Teen Wolf Too." A comic book writer ("Hulk: Grey," "Spider-Man: Blue," "Daredevil: Yellow") since 1991, Loeb wrote his first teleplay for "Smallville" in 2002 and spent half a season at "Lost" before Kring brought him aboard "Heroes."
Loeb scripted the "Heroes" second-season finale, "Powerless."
Alexander wrote on all five seasons of "Alias" and worked as executive consultant and co-executive producer on the first season of "Lost" before joining "Heroes."
Alexander scripted last week's episode, "Eris Quod Sum."
Read all of Variety’s story on the matter here.
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Nov 02, 2008 7:16:21 PM CST
NICE!! Get rid of your two "best" writers! THIS SHOW BLOWS!
by fuckmichaelbay
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That's hardcore.
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I actually don't think the show is bad, but I can see how it's maybe too confusing for the average Joe The Plumber Six-Pack.
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At least Jeph Loeb can still mooch off of Lisa Loeb.
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Bout time their asses got fired. Money for nothing.
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The show has big problems but that's a way to likely make them worse. Once I start watching a show I usually try and stick with it to the end but this sounds like a good reason to be to get out now. Nice work NBC!
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How quaint.
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Considering I never watch that over-hyped show, maybe Jeph will start getting his comic books out on time again and keep his "day job."
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This show desperately needs fresh blood on both sides of the camera...
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That is all.
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If Loeb is one of the best writers then Heroes is in worse shape than I could have ever imagined.Here's hoping that Heroes starts to be good now that Loeb is history...
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Maybe he could go save Smallville. I hope to see him go back to writing comics at DC. I thought his Superman/Batman series, "Public Enemies" was really good. I've stopped watching Heroes.
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Hes a great writer but a piss-poor storyteller. Hes written some great dialogue through the years but not ONE of his stories has ever had a beginning,middle,and an end(that made sense). The last issue of HUSH couldnt have punched me in the balls any harder if Batman had broken the fourth wall and told me to drink Ovaltine!
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don't care ... I'm not sure they can do anything to pull this series out. They've so screwed the pooch with logic and continuity, it's almost beyond salvation. The time travel, the "uber heroes", the fact the main 'hero' (Peter) is a fucking feckless fey retard ... not sure how to pull this plane out of the tail spin.
It's truly amazing - I never imagine anyone could ruin a super hero themed show, but these turds did it. -
never heard of it.
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This is good news for everyone that wants this show to be good.
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"The show is also said to have been grappling with hefty budget overruns this season, that are going well beyond its already sizable $4 million per-seg pricetag."
BSG has a pricetag of less than half of that per episode. Four million per?? And for VFX like that? Damn. -
Now we got a 50/50 shot at getting some good writers.
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...Loeb's "Ultimates 3", him leaving "Heroes" isn't necessarily a bad thing.
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Looking at the crap he vomits up in "Superman/Batman," "the Ultimates," and "Hush," just to name three examples I can pretty much guarantee that all the crap in Seasons 2 and 3 of "Heroes" that people hate, the hackneyed junk, was his.
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wrote last week's Eris Quod Sum, which was an epi that I enjoyed a lot.
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Nov 02, 2008 8:27:33 PM CST
Could Some There Be Crazy Enough To Hire Me, Please???!!!
by media messiah
Heroes needs to be altered to a format that includes stand alone episodes with a villain our villains of the week, and a bookend story arc...season for season ala Buffy, which reveals a greater over all story as the season progresses--but each episode should be able to stand as a separate entity for viewers. This will help to get rid of all of the convoluted B, C, D, E, F, G arcs. All we need is A thru C story arcs with a emphasis on the A arc...each episode!!!If you guys are looking for a writer/muse to help revamp the show, hire me, I'm more than available and have a ton of good ideas.
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...and that was very lazy, lame, uninspired writing.
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Well, to be fair, BSG saves a lot of money by being all-Vancouver, all-the-time. But still, you're right, there's scarcely a single episode of BSG that isn't 10 times more visually impressive than Heroes.
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but while other Coaxial entries are usually about this weeks episode, for Heroes it's instead about their woes. You gotta laugh.
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Three episodes this season. That was it for me. Heroes blows. The first season was interesting, until the Watchmen rip-off. They don't need writers, they are just copying popular comic books. Why pay writers when you can just steal shit?
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Delete this from your tivo rotation and pick up fringe. Good schtuff.
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Two fewer crappy writers isn't going to miraculously turn this show into something worth watching again but at least they're acknowledging they need to try something different/bring in some fresh hacks.
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but ANY changes in the writing could hardly hurt matters....Unless these the only two trying to right the ship, that is. But since they were around for S2, hard to give em the benefit of the doubt. Whoever thought up the Runnin Siblins and Claire using her power to get on a cheerleading squad in S2--BOOT those MUTHAS for sure.
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But Kring's got to go too. They also need to take particular care on who they hire to replace them. They need people who understand the Super Hero myth (not just the run of the mill "hero" myth as super heroes are a specific category...) and the cream of the crop, top tier writers that can realize the vision. Filling each episode with 20 characters and budget sucking sfx and stunts is not the aim here. Neither is finding people who would just transfer comics to the screen... Writing for comics is a different skill set then writing for TV... Finding people who understand character and relationships as they pertain to the Super Hero Myth in a mature, intelligent manner and who have the experience writing good dialog and action is key. This won't be easy. The folks responsible for Avatar: The Last Airbender have done a remarkable job. I'd start there and see where tha goes.
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Heroes, run by Bryan Singer, written by Bryan Fuller, music by Brian Eno, starring Bryan Brown.
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Verheiden was one of the writers of Battlestar and he has joined Heroes as "Writer/Consulting Producer" of Heroes starting with the second story arc of this season so hopefully he can help the show
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one worked on Alias and they both worked on Lost. and last week's ep of Heroes wasn't the worst either.
Kring, otoh, doesn't sound like he knows what the frak he's doing. -
And the news keeps getting a little bit better.
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As the late-great John Houseman would say:"EARN IT!"
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Yes, one of the best animated shows to come out of the US, ever. Heroes doesn't have half the charm Avatar has. If Shyamalan is still serious about doing it, he has some big shoes to fill.
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but nothing for "life on mars" since the pilot? what gives?
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There is a difference between a hand-out and a job. There is a report out about some guy working as a janitor or something, just two weeks ago, and now he's in the NFL. So things like this, although, rare, do happen. A similar thing happened to the Rams old quarterback, so Dude, stop trying to rain on somebody else's parade!!! Trust me, if they did email me, and I'm not fit to write for them, they won't hire me n that case, but if someone over there thinks outside the box and gives me a try, and I do get hired, be happy for me, I'd do the same for you, that is, be happy for you!!!
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Well, maybe Hulk and Ultimate issues will come out on time.
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I've not been very impressed this season, though Robert Forster and Kristen Bell are doing wonders with what they've been given.
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Tim Kring I'd start paking your office up Bubba.After two years of joking about the TPTB reading the TB and not meaning it, I guess they really do read AICN TB.This show is WAY to far gone to save. I like looking at the train wreck aspect of Heroes now. I hope they go batshit insane with it in a last ditch effort at survival. It won't work but it might be interesting. Time to roll out Lesbo scenes. The Ice Princess, Cheerleader, Cheerleaders ReCockulously hot white trash biological mom, Veronica Mars. Anyone double Xers can get it on, I don't care who. Oh and kill off Peter and Sylar etc.
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I was part of the Two Million Fan March Friday - AKA the Phillies' victory parade, to take this offtopic a bit. Biggest victory parade crowd for any team in U.S. history outside of NYC. Unreal, batshit insanity all its own.
So if Kring goes, who's the showrunner, then? Who would you and anyone else offer as nominees? -
It was under his leadership that this became a rudderless, convoluted, moronic mess.
But he won't do that
And he probably can't be easily fired -
he can let someone else run Pushing Daisies!
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...PD is not doing well.
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Nov 02, 2008 9:48:36 PM CST
Fuller may be available, if PD doesn't get out of its ratings ru
by pennsy
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this show can't be saved, so go for every fanfic excess you can get away with
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I'd pay whatever Jeph Loeb is asking for and have him come back to Smallville. He wrote some great, fan favorite episodes of both Smallville and Heroes. NBC must be on crack to allow this to happen.
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Kring already went down the fanfic path.
Peter and Sylar being brothers a prime example. -
Her third, fourth and fifth this year, and she's supposedly only signed up for 5. Which means her farewell from the show COULD be the Monday before Thanksgiving. ON TV w/o Pity, there's a TV Guide interview with Kring floating around that suggests she'll be in *every remaining episode of the Villains arc*. Mucho encouraging, or he's gotten so much positive pushback from Bell fans that he's willing to shoot around her movie schedule.
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SPOILERS FOR ULTIMATES 3: The butler did it. The robot butler. Who happens to be Ultron, given sentience by a single touch from the Scarlet Witch. Ultron, who also happens to inexplicably be Yellowjacket. END SPOILERS. Loeb blows.
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That guy's awesome. Maybe this show will be good now for the first time since its inception.
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something had to be done.Whether this saves or sinks the show remains to be seen.Time will tell.Pennsy congrats to your Phillies.
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I was going to ask you if you went to too the Phillies parade but you beat me to it hoss! Congrats by the way.Have you seen that youtube video of the guy on a light pole during the parade who got nailed right in the melon by a Vodka bottle? Funny Stuff.
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I don't want to see fanFic on Heroes, there's too much already. I want the writers to go nuclear with the insanity, but make it fresh nuttiness. Super power Lesbo! Maybe a cross over with Knight Rider. Have pyro mom light that chunk of wood on fire that's the lead and have computer kid scramble Kitts CPU. Show over.Or maybe a crossover with LipStick Jungle. I'd like to Brooke Shields and the cheervarine get to "know" each other, if you get what I mean. I mean have sex, just in case you didn't understand.
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OK, someone said BSG saves money by being Toronto all the time. Well, I doubt that Heroes leaves SoCal or wherever that shit is shot. When they were at the bank in "Poughkeepsie, NY" I'm pretty sure that was not Poughkeepsie, NY. I live there. Does not look like that.
Now...wasn't Firefly one million per ep? Everyone thought that was extravagant at the time. Turns out that it was a great value! -
they shot themselves in the foot by making the 'save the world' story arc happen in the first season. had they been intelligent, they would have stretched it out over 3 or more seasons, and had in depth character and min-crisis arcs throughout.
now that they have already saved the world in one season, each time they have to 'save the world', we roll our eyes because we think "oh jesus, not again..."
what crisis is bigger than 'save the world'? NONE. they really should've seen this coming, i don't know what the fuck they were thinking. i blame whoever was involved in making that story arc solved in 1 season.
LOST is on the same island for 6 seasons, yet it is still gripping and compelling because the major arc wasn't solved in the first season. -
I got the gist of it
Like Peter gets the ability to change gender and gets another dose of writer induced amnesia, Sylar seduces herm, and they go on a super powered Bonnie and Clyde crime and sex spree -
No kidding. Why would anyone go to Poughkeepsie if they didn't have to? :-P
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You know, I was sincerely hoping that the guy who could produce voids was going to be carried on a time trip by Hiro to go fix the timeline...
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for the last two seasons i had said loudly in these talkbacks that the show has two main problems. 1- they didnt understand their audience... that to make their audience happy they should start making the heroes embrace their powers instead of having them all feel like they were a burden. Thats why hiro was such a popular character, because hes the only one that did.ANDdo something with ali larter's character. she should have already had geek cred, but they made her character only likable to other 'single mom serial killer'-types, so the fans started turning on her. well, both of those issues have been fixed in this season, so even if there are a few imperfections and a few leaps of logic, they won me over.
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The writing sucks sure, but let's face it - it's never going to be Lost or BSG. they'd do a lot more for the show by increasing the effects budget rather than dumping the writers.
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trying to please the audience. Make some sort of art-house superhero show. It'd get shit ratings, but might at least be interesting. Did Alan Moore think "what would the audience want" before writing Watchmen? Then again Alan Moore is creative, while the people behind Heroes don't seem to be.
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...with someone who claimed Heroes would always be awesome back when Lost had a bit of a rocky third season.
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They're probably not sorry to be gone.
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One of the things I love about LOST is each season has had one major theme. When you see a rerun, as long as you know which season you're in, you have a good idea of where everything is in the story (i.e. "Oh, this is the one where we find out how Hurley won the lottery," or "Oh yeah... this is where we see how Locke ended up in the wheelchair.")Sure, LOST has a pretty complex overall story... but, each episode generally focuses on a couple characters, making pretty much everybody important to the story (and thus, the audience).Every time I watch HEROES, I just want to skip the scenes with my least favorite characters -- namely SchmoHinder, Ali Larter -- because I just don't give a damn about them.I've pretty much stopped watching HEROES, but I'd be willing to give it a shot again if they step away from the convoluted mess they've made of a storyline.
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Sometimes Buffy was about saving a friend from the enemy, or saving a friend from their own hand, and in that saving everyone else. It was about saving a Sister, or sacrificing one's self for the greater good...and there was a moral, a theme, beyond just a plot twist for plot twist sake. Often times the plots were thinly veiled or openly played narratives on sexual awakening, date rape, domestic abuse, drug abuse, homosexuality, sexual experimentation, sexual politics, hypocrisy, social mores, star-crossed love, faith, and just the hard realities of becoming an adult.Joss and Marti were often writing about themselves or their loved ones, and in Joss' case, a lost loved one, and several found loved ones, like his Mom, his wife, Sarah Michelle Gellar, and Marti Nixon..the show runner.The fact that they made the series personal, gave it resonance...and life therein. The problem with Heroes is that they are now too focused on cliches and overly bysantine plot lines...often, with too many characters to go around, and this only works to confuse the audience and slows the plots from progressing and evolving. We have only loosely been allowed to see the characters explore love relationships, or friendships, as they are only really surface relationships designed to solely service the plot for a brief time...then those relationships are abandoned, save for one example on the series. Therefore, we never get to really know the characters on a deeper level or those whom they love? What's worse, with all the various plot twists, the characters are all scatter shot, thus we never get a chance to really say, this is Clare's true personality, or Sylar's true personality, or Peter's true persona. No, all the characters are written like schizophrenics. Thus the need to pair down the characters, and make amalgams of them. Reveal that Peter is not Clare's uncle, and have them fall in love. That gives you a chance to explore them both in a tighter fashion. Have Nicki hook up with Sylar as a villainous and hs lover, etc. We need set relationships, and set friends, lovers, and enemies!!!Look at Buffy for instance!!! Save for the rarest occasion, you always knew who Buffy was, or Willow, Xander, Giles, Buffy's Mom, her Sister, Tara, Angel, Spike, etc., and you didn't have to guess epsode to episode, and when there was a change, it was promptly explained and dealt with, no "Lost" like Chinese Box plots carried on a half a season beyond their shelf life!!!
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Any one else notice that Heroes went down hill after Bryan Fuller left the show to go and do Pushing Daisies?
Now that it looks like Pushing Daisies is coming to an end, will Bryan Fuller come to the rescue?
Probably not. -
He's an asshole in person and a shitty writer. I hope he's off to write for Hannah Montana.
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But her contract expired with Universal. Now she's back with her old Mutant Enemy Crew at Fox. Not only could she have infused Heroes with a little much needed humor, but could've taught Kring and those amateurs a thing or two regarding story structure and dialog. Oh well....
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Ditch Jeph Loeb. He's just awful. Everything he touches turns to shit - just look at Hulk and the Ultimates. Ultimatum looks like it's going to be a rip-off of ten-year old Authority stories.
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Did all the persistent calls for their heads here lead to the dismissals? Perhaps, perhaps not. Will this help the show? Perhaps, perhaps not. But at least it's an effort to shake things up.Here's another suggestion to cut the cost of the episodes -- stop adding to the cast, and fire the ones with the lame stories! That means you, JessNikkiBarbWhatever, Parkman, Mohinder and Maya! Maybe ImPeter, too.
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I've quit watching NBC, except for football.
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I'm not yet ready to say goodbye; I just hope in the end there is a payoff where I can go back to seasons one and two and say; "ok... I get it, there was a plan all along..."
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You can still save your cinematic career by ditching Kurtzman and Orci.
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Some of the stuff he's done has been great, but most of it's been garbage (oh, and he fucking ruined the "Ultimates" as well). Sadly, I don't think this show is going to last. They dropped the ball, but the first season is still great (and actually has a complete arc!). Bring on a show actually based on a comic (like "Runaways" or "Hellblazer")
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and made each season about a completely different bunch of Heroes and villains with a new story arc. The fact that these guys got popular from season one and they decided to continue their stories into a contrived Season two, only makes for an even more contrived and pointless Season three. The show puts too much on spectacle rather than characterization, it concentrates too much on plot twists instead of plot development. Once you write a story than relies too heavily on time travel, everything becomes an endless myriad of possibilities that usually always leaves the viewr thinking "what if?", "why didn't?" or simply "What?". Jeph Loeb has ruined The Ultimates comic line for Marvel with that hack Joe Maduiera, he ruined a great ongoing Batman plot by derailing it and introducing HUSH to utterly no avail. Now he's made so much damage to a series that had so much potential that it's impossible to save it from the fleeing viewers. Just end this show quickly and move on while you still can afford the spectacle!
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Should have had more faith in Journeyman last season, it was developing into a really great show and needed to be on schedule before Heroes, not after. I really miss Moon Bloodgood on my screens.
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and Heroes continual decline
It'll probably be years, if ever that a network will be take a rish on a Super Powered characters show. -
1. Never ever let anyone in the cast ever talk about being mom's favorite again. Cheese, aged and smelly.
2. What everyone else says about logic, unless you have a clear plan for working it out later that does not involve anyone waking from a dream, finding out it was all an alternate reality or anything even remotely similar to those things.
3. Get this guy on as a consultant and sometimes writer, if he's willing (Ben Edlund)
http://tinyurl.com/5dwqc5
He seems to have saved a show I never liked before and made me and others want to watch it when we said to ourselves "never". (Supernatural)
4. Convince Tim that just because he created the thing does not mean he knows what's best for it from that point forward. Thank you for creating something we could all geek out over at first, but take a cue from George Lucas. Remember, it's "his baby" and he'll do what he wants to it , even if it means it all goes down in flaming digital banthas. Remember than when you're looking at advice from others about YOUR show.
5. Sit all the "star" actors down and explain to them that the show that launched their careers is going down in flames. Something has to give, if it's a temporary pay cut agreed upon contractually or a writing out of the show.
6. We all want cool effects, but honestly spend the money for great writing instead. Worry about the coolness of how it'll look later. Include the budget restraints in the show's bible. Interesting, logical stories and characters will go much further than a halfway(and I'm being so nice by saying halfway) decent shot of Peter flying or a nuke destroying Rancho Cucam.. I mean feudal Japa... I mean Costa Verde or whatever it was.
7. Never, ever do a pre-show premiere special thing again. It felt like a boast. No matter how proud you are about the new season, don't ever do that again.
8. Don't always listen to what we say, but if you listen to anyone, listen to the geeks. A lot of average viewers don't even know what they want until they get it and hate it anyway. Seriously. For instance, the fans might say something like "More Sylar" and you give it to them and take all the mystery and danger of the character away, making them sick of him. Sometimes what makes a character special is when you don't see him or her every week or you don't spill his whole back-story.
9. Don't necessarily listen to the people who say "stop introducing new characters". Just don't feel like you're obligated to bring them back all the time or follow them every week.
10. That guy that did "Company Man", yeah.. do you best to keep him on. Oh, what? He's already on another show? Ooh, bummer. Yeah, get him back, too. If you can. If not, try to replace him with writers you have to give sizeable checks to in order to get them to write for TV. Kill off a major character to pay for it if you have to. It'll be worth it. A good or great writer can transform a crappy show into something not to be missed. I've never missed an episode of Heroes, but I have to say these days it sits on the DVR longer than it did at the beginning of the season. So your die hards are starting to lose interest. That's scary.
Lastly, to those that want to budget cut this baby into looking like the last season of the 4400? Just commit or kill it. Don't do that. (even though I have the say that show improved the more it was threatened) -
That was a good one. The Dark Knight stole a lot from that comic book. Jeph Loeb wrote it.
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Because this season has been a lot better than series 2. But I have to agree with a lot of the opinions of the fans. The show is going downhill fast in a mangled mess of confusing storylines and useless characters. I hate to be a backseat critic but I too have some opinions on what would help bring this show back to life. Firstly, scrap the idea of a long term plan. I love Lost, but one of the problems it's having is losing sight of the smaller picture for conspiracies and mysteries. Take each show back to basics. Each episode should be a story with a beginning, middle and end. I'm not saying to destroy continuing plotlines, but not so much that it overtakes the point of actually entertaining audience. Secondly, pick a small number of characters that are required and are effective in telling that story. I know actors contracts may make this difficult, but making each character appear in an episode just to earn their pay makes for cluttered and confusing storylines.
Re-examine the characters. Look deeper and see what conflicts and themes could be explored. And don't be afraid to explore outside the main 'plan'. For a simple idea, take Parkman. What if with his powers he accidentally gleans a thought from a crowd that they have a bomb and are going to detonate it. He becomes obsessed with finding this person and starts hunting after everyone who was in the crowd to find the person, invading all the other people's thoughts. Other characters become concerned that he is going to far. Hiro sensing that as well, goes to the future, and finds that no bomb has gone off and tell Parkman that nothing happens. Parkman becomes convinced that it is because he stops him, and so the conflict goes until the resolution. Sorry went a bit fan-fictiony there but there is so much potential with these characters that it's hard to understand why the writers are having these problems keeping the show above water. -
So, you no longer gonna post a proper Heroes talkback, but you've ben posting such *news* every week just in time for new Heroes episode just to get Heroes fanboy talkbackers?
Why? don't give shit about caring for talkbackers or the show. It's all about traffic and moolah. -
I remember a while back that a Talkbacker came up with the idea that Kring should hire Ellis as a writer/consultant.
I think he'd be just as much of an upgrade as Brian K. Vaughn was to Lost when he was picked up to write some episodes last year. -
So yay for Heroes? I guess it's harder to keep a job when you can't hide behind the sales your A-List artists generate (I'm alluding to his comics work, here).
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Please stop with the Ben Edlund jibber jabber. He needs to stay with Supernatural. Nothing and nobody should mess with Supernatural. This season has been kicking ten different kinds of ass.
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Or did they simply move on to greener pastures (another project, either a pilot for a series or a movie deal)? They were the best writers on the show -- and, well, frankly, that's not saying much.Another Talkbacker above said that Micah's cousin and her power were pretty cool, and I agree. But the writers totally wasted the potential with her character. I wouldn't have minded seeing her return. Or Micah. Imagine a storyline that focuses on Micah, Molly, Monica and Claire teamed up (with Claire leading this group). It could be an homage to Marvel Comics' Runaways or NYX. This is another example of wasted potential with this show.
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Then we can get see Peter Petrelli using his powers to sodomize his brother in a comedic manner, while a grotesquely obese, decrepit, and possibly racist Jesus Christ watches on, masturbating with the decapitated head of the Japanese guy who loves superhero comics so much.
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Why waste time on this failing show, why can't there be a talkback for Burn Notice?? this show needs more attention.
Heroes is seriously pissing me off - how many times has Sylar and Peter lost their powers now or been put into a coma? taking them away almost every episode is lazy writing, oh look Peters lost his powers again, no he has got them back only to lose them again gee fucking whizz -
Hey, is Ron Moore looking for a job right now?
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Woo-dee-fuckin-doo.
Ultimates 4, YAY!! -
Motherfucker can't write a decent story to save his life. All he does is set up a "mystery" for which he has no real or satisfying resolution, then use that mystery to instigate a bunch of disconnected scenes that add up to jack+shit. LOEB SUCKS AND SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ALLOWED TO WRITE COMICS, GODDAMNIT!
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Warren Ellis would do things to Heroes that would be both glorious and frightening. The suits wouldn't know how to handle it.
Burn Notice isn't on at the moment, is it? If it is, there should be a talkback. If there isn't, there should be a talkback.
Oh, Kath & Kim just got a full season order. NBC has now officially lost whatever remaining cred they had. Like I said, you gotta laugh. -
It's so artfully crafted by Loeb that there are mysteries within the actual mystery. For example (SPOILERS):
1. How did a frail waif of a lady like Glida Dent manage to single handily murder several of Gotham's finest thugs and mobsters with a pistol?
2. When she was hospitalized, how did Gilda manage to unhook herself from that life support machine night after night, sneak out of the hospital unseen past her sleeping husband and hospital staff, murder said mobsters, then return unnoticed?
3. Why the hell was the water red when Alberto faked his own death, considering that there was absolutely nobody on the ship in proximity to watch him, and that at night it would have been impossible to see anything in the water anyways. Unless... Alberto knew that the reader was watching him! Oh that diabolical genius.
5. How could Batman "The World's Greatest Detective" manage to be outwitted by a deluded housewife and an twenty something over the course of an entire year? -
How the hell did an insane, but otherwise unimpressive housewife and twenty something mobster wanna be manage to elude the "World's Greatest Detective" for over a year?
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Just thought i'd start off with that seen as i was watching my name is earl.
So heroes lost two writers, maybe they should get jobs filling in the parts of lana and lex in smallville as they have quit the show it seams. Not 100% sure but i thought it was the last season and they just left a massive plot hole of where the fuck is lex. These people in my opinion have been taking the piss for a very long.
At least the team on heroes has the talent and a shit script, smallville is lacking the talent and still has a shit script lol.
Is it wrong that i am watching the gilmore girls and liking it? -
Or scrap it and bring back fucking Journeyman.
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I didn't realize you were a Phillies fan. Damn you.And this is too little, too late.
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of "Presumed Innocent" and "The Godfather". That's called hack writing.
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It's not the answer for everything.
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Was written by a Bryan Fuller (according IMDB) and only did 2 episodes all in the first season. I think everyone agrees that episode was an absolute stand-out.
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So he is always on the team but as co producer.
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... and no mention of their invaluable work on the multiple Oscar-winning "Teen Wolf Too" (not the number, the word meaning 'also')? Jason Bateman's finest hour and a half? Francis from Pee-Wee's Big Adventure? JOHN FUCKING ASTIN?!?
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I enjoyed a number of his works - Batman - The Long Halloween and Dark Victory, Superman - For All Seasons was great, Batman/Superman - Public Enemies was entertaining.... but have you seen how he's ruined Mark Millar's The Ultimates and his silly Red Hulk storyline in the Hulk? I don't know how much he's to blame for Heroes but he hasn't written anything good for a while...
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Last week was a really good episode of Supernatural... especially when the man who started Hamsterdam on The Wire showed up as a badass! That show keeps getting better and better each season...
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Maybe now it can get better.
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should have read closer. Apologies. Good on.
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I really couldn't understand why no heads were rolling. This was once an uber-hit for NBC, who knows how much money the current producers cost the network. Yes, the new guys might be worse, but given how far the show has plummeted, I would guess that anyone else can do a better job. I'm glad to hear that NBC recognized the core of the problem, instead of merely trying to tweak the storyline. This is the best Hollywood news I've heard in a year.
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we need guys that have more imagination
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Heroes is in deep shit because they had a great idea but killed it in one season thinking they would have other great ones. Wrong.
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I recall Kring saying very very early on, that the plan for the show was that some heroes would come and go and that the cast would constantly revolve. I think the problem with some of the characters is that they were never designed to stay resident. They were designed to be one season toss offs that, for whatever reason, wound up being brought back for seasons 2 and 3.
I think the show needs to ditch Peter and the cheerleader, and should give Hiro a season hiatus.
Thinking about it more, I suppose the reason for this is that all, and I do mean all, of the new heroes we found early in season 2 were bad - really bad. So instead of them migrating into the spotlight, they were quickly buried alive in the sand. -
Jeph, you haven't written a damn thing I've liked since DAREDEVIL: YELLOW and Stan Lee originally wrote the bulk of it. Please start writing for TWO AND A HALF MEN so we can finally bury that show instead.
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Supernatural convert right here. Hated the first few eps of season 1 then caught some of season 3 a while back and loved it After that I bought the season 2 and 3 dvd's. The whole going to hell arc was fantastic even if it was butchered due to the writer's strike. It has really fun schlocky writing that can also do pathos and sometimes be genuinely scary, Jensen Ackles seems to be hugely underrated by everyone but fangirls who think he's hot - he does some brilliantly layered acting he reminds me a little of Alexis Denisof in the last 2 Angel seasons. And yeh Bunny fucking Colvin showed up last week as an Angel wanting to rain sulphur on a small town, pretty fucken cool.
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i know many on this site hate loeb, but when a team is failing, you look to the coach first...kring shouldve been removed as show runner
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It took skill to royally screw this up so bad. This season's opening was like an English 102 exercize done badly. We don't have any ideas, so let's totally insult our audience by making all the characters direct opposites to what we wrote before. Yeah, THAT's the ticket. They bring back the tough chick, slightly pyscho Elle (Kristen Bell), only to make her a powerless wimpering girrl. I don't see everything, but two shows that are soooo much better than this are Terminator, the series and CHUCK. The later already had heart and now that Terminator stopped treating its human heroes as cyborgs, it has presented some of the best stuff going on TV the last 3 episodes.... PS: Does everything have to be on Monday night?
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Nov 03, 2008 10:09:41 AM CST
Yes, use the "It was all a dream," angle to reboot...
by leafar the lost
...Heroes. I remember when "Dallas" used it to wipe out an entire season by saying that it was all a dream. Start next season by having the Cheerleader wake up and realize that season 3 was just a bad dream.
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Supernatural genuine gross out moment: The guy who was coughing up razorblades... disturbing as hell!!! And you gotta love the kid that got pulled into the crypt by the zombie last week, followed by the huge explosion of blood gushing from the hole in the wall. This show pulls hardly any punches, has great writing, an awesome cast, is able to blend standalone plots with an overarching storyline each year, and yet it's virtually ignored.
People really need to start watching this show...
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No need for "it was all a dream". Papa Petrelli is cool and all, but at this point he is basically a god with all the powers he should have. Does he even know about all the crap he absorbed from Peter? I don't see how anyone can take him down, aside from going back in time and cutting his head off, or having the Hatian come in and fuck him up.
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It was all a dream, Claire. You're still in mid-season 1 when the show was fun.
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This doesn't strike me as them getting the boot so much as rats sinking an abandoning ship.
Also, all those comics you mentiones are not Loeb's best. His cool stuff is way better represented by The Long Halloween and Hush. Not to be a comic book dick, but it's a bit of a mischaracterization of the guy to talk about his sentimental mediocre Marvel stuff rather than his actually groundbreaking and awesome Batman work. -
The less said the better...
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Give it a great big boot up the ass and send it flying. Shows like Heroes will damage TV for years if people don't show their disdain. We'll get even worse copycat shows, cheaper but with the same bullshit dialogue and just a reliance on the fact that some girls who watch are in love with Peter Petrelli.
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Another talkbacker memo I missed. So let me get this straight... Long Halloween, Dark Victory, and Hush sucked?
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Long Halloween and Hush were terrible. Long Halloween's ok, but unbelievably overrated.
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Dark Victory and Hush were terrible...Long Halloween is alright if you can ignore the fact that the plot makes no sense.
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What didn't make sense to you?
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Is make at least ONE character that I like to watch. Every single character is boring, stupid, and unlikeable to the point that I really don't care what happens, no matter how exciting the events may be. Even the characters I liked in the first season (Bennett, for example), I'm fucking sick of. The only character I like right now is Arthur Patrelli, and that's only because Robert Forster is cool in anything.
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Mostly because of all the talkbackers who were CONSTANTLY singing its praises.
I'm about up to 1x18 by now, and it's okay. It's not great or anything, but it's very watchable.
Neither as good as Heroes season 1 (in the early days) was, but definitely not crap. And by some accounts, it gets a lot better as the seasons go on, unlike Heroes and BSG which got shittier and shittier.
Off topic, but I saw a funny comment on slashdot earlier about BSG. "[i]ts like an old dying dog you have, and you just can't bear to put him down" -
Nov 03, 2008 11:58:22 AM CST
Maybe NBC could bring in a great TV writer like David Milch
by orbots commander
...to help save Heroes. The first few seasons of NYPD Blue (up until the end of Jimmy Smitt's run), where Miltch was on, were fantastic.
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I listed my gripes several posts up, but they mainly have to do with the fact that the ending, and in effect the entire story leading up to that point (since this is a mystery), revolves around us having to accept that the culprits behind the series of murders which drove the story were perpetrated by the story's 2 most improbable suspects. And when I say 'improbable' I don't mean in the traditional genre sense of "the author cleverly used red herrings and misdirection so that I couldn't see past the smoke and mirrors and arrive at the correct and logical conclusion", but improbable in that with the way the characters were written, and the story had played out before us, it is pretty much impossible that they could have done what they did, much less elude the combined efforts of the World's Greatest Detective, Gotham's finest Cop, and the city's most resourceful D.A. if not for the fact they all were eating a big box of stupid every morning that whole year.
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And free the airwaves for other programming.
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was mostly Loeb's idea considering some of his past comic book storylines. The "AU" ideas were one of the complaints that I had heard from various people as to why they had lost interest in the show.
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Seriously, of the 5 stories I let myself get suckered into buying and reading NOT ONE made me think anything other than "I want my money back".
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somehow long halloween sold well, despite the fact that it was poorly written and plotted...this despite being released long after the comic buying boom was over...why cant people just admit that loeb is a good writer who can be uneven at times? his stuff with sale is good to very good, and he is very loyal to his friends...the fact remains, sale needed a gig...loeb brought him into heroes and made him a household name...and im sorry, but to blame the downfall of heroes on loeb and alexander is totally misplaced...the problem with the series lies squarely on the back of tim kring
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This show has been OVERRATED from the get-go. People only followed this show, cause it gave them some kind of gravitas attitude and exclusivity. No one knows what's going on on that show including the NETWORK. GOOD RIDDANCE!
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I know, I'm surprised by this as well, but it has. Couldn't be because Kristin Kreuk is only in five episodes this season, could it?
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It's tomorrow. Obama is going to win. Where is the forum for us to say how much we hate Republicans?
Obama says there is one America...there will be once we get rid of the Elephant heads.
Don't disappoint, this forum has the best fellow anti-Republican posters. -
You're up to 1x18... you're in for a treat with the last couple of episodes as they deal directly with the show's mythology. The season 1 finale cliffhanger will definitely have you clamoring for the beginning of season 2!
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It's just a sloppily written but entertaining 'epic', with fantastic art, and some snappy dialogue/ character interactions. I just think it's status as one of the 'definitive' or classic Batman stories is grossly undeserved.
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http://tinyurl.com/5lhljg
Money quotes: "Someone had to take the fall." This is what a reliable inside source on Heroes tells me of the firings of Loeb and Alexander. "NBC is not happy with the current status of the show, and there had to be a visual and tangible change in the course of action."
Also, the Entertainment Weekly cover story turned out to be basically ambush journalism that did not go over well at NBC AT ALL. And Loeb is one of the writers on 'War', the midseason finale, Kristin says. -
Like I did KNIGHT RIDER and SARA CONNER? I actually tried to watch 4 episodes of each of those, and lost consciousness. Season 2 of HEROES did little for me, and I have yet to watch any of the season 3 stuff, yet hear no end of the same yuckness. I have slews of things new to sample, like ELEVENTH HOUR, FRINGE, PUSHING DAISES and so on - and am fighting just dumping HEROES as a lost cause. hasnt been any good since just PRIOR to season 1 finale. (Seriously - 22 hours of build up for THAT?!)
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SUPERNATURAL may just be the single best network show on currently. SMALLVILLE has gotten a lot better, and thats coming from a standpoint of phoning it in with utter and total illogic for 2 entire seasons.
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If they took that pathetic piece of EW journalism to heart, then they are idiotic. That was a contradictory piece of nonsense purporting to be enlightening, another sign that the entertainment media follow trends rather than reporting on anything that actually has merit and logic behind it.
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Who they need to fire is Zucker and Immelt. Excluding their sports coverage, this network is a mess and they are main reason.
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Yeah, every time I check a talkback, I find out that some beloved property is actually a piece of shit, and I am stupid for liking it.
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If anyone needs to be thrown under the bus at NBC, it's him.
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Silverman is the real cancer here. The guy only got his job because he scoured the earth for other shows to bring to the US, which other than The Office have totally failed. Knight Rider full season?
Check out this amazing article on him from CNN:
http://tinyurl.com/5jmjyr -
...at all you brain dead nubes who used to come in here during season 1 of this crap to debate that it was better than Lost. Lost fans, like myself, would tell you repeatedly this series won't last and didn't have the story or characters to persevere and now in season 3 it's falling apart. Season 1 of Heroes was fun in a dumb pulpy way. Season 2 was abysmal. Season 3? I wouldn't know. I haven't watched 1 episode of it. I knew it had petered out. The only way they get me back is by giving me some full frontal Hayden nudity. Short of that, Heroes is dead in my world.
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There are so many unproduced, unsold scripts floating around that are long on cool ideas, plot, action sequences and so forth, but are short on strong dialogue and character development. The producers should buy those scripts and bring in the pros to polish.Consider DS9 and Star Trek: TNG. Those two shows likely lasted so long in their day because they bought pitches and stories from outside talent.
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I don't want to turn this into Lost vs. Heroes because the two shows are very different, but I remember it was such a stupid debate. Hell, I remember the "didn't like the episode" threads on some Lost forums, namely The Fuselage, where some posters would cry about how bad Lost season 3 had gotten and heralded Heroes as the second coming, and urged people who were dissatisfied with Lost "not giving answers" to tune into the superior Heroes, which actually seemed to be "going somewhere".
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From my POV, it IS better than Lost. Then again, if I want to experience a sprawling narrative that builds to an expert climax I go read Watchmen again.
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True. While I think Heroes is better (for me) than Lost, really... they have fuck all in comparison. You can debate quality, but Heroes is sectioned off into self-contained Volumes while Lost is one long-ass story that'll last over a hundred eps.
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Nov 03, 2008 3:24:04 PM CST
People blame Kring because he's the only name we see every ep
by burgerking
Kring is the only person who dares to plop his name at the beginning of every episode. So every time an episode sucks, who do people blame? The only guy they remember the name of, fuck that guy!
Really I think there are more people to blame than fucking Kring. Damnit people.
As for these writers, I don't know if it will help the series. Probably will though. -
smallville this week was actually pretty darned good. i actually mean season 1 good. well played, kal el.
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loeb didnt get into his current position cuz hes a hack...his stuff has been popular, and not cuz fan boys buy any pos that is on the stands...those days died out long ago...i agree that he has gotten a bit lazy recently, but that cannot be said of his earlier work with sale....long halloween was a well crafted tale...had the writing sucked so badly, it never wouldve made it through its run....i dont know what has happened on heroes...i dont get alexander being canned at all...he wrote the best epi this season...its the overall arc and tone of the show that blows, and that falls on the showrunner...it was kring who said that he listened to the fans and would change the show accordingly....well, if he was listening, he listened to the wrong people...what made season 1 good is that they worked hard making the characters 3 dimensional...that is totally gone from this season....we now have a cheap copy of xmen...which x movie was the best? x2...why? because we got to see below the powers on some characters...how a series can destroy their best characters is beyond me...hrg is now a shadow of his former self...sylar is a total joke...and they have turned hiro into an asian charicature...which is sad...hiro was the breakout character...
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ROTFLOL!!!! OMG! sorry,but i think i threw up after laughing so hard. seriously? Teen Wolf Too! wow,no wondwr Heroes sucks. RIP Heroes. A one season wonder.....
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He created the show, he's the show runner and if I'm not mistaken the head writer. Everything goes through him. He should be held responsible.Its no big surprise though, his history didn't bode well for success.
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Yeah I laughed at that too. Hell, whenever brought up among friends, the mere mention of the TITLE of that movie causes laughter. TEEN WOLF TOO lmfao. The cinematic masterpiece, of which no other movie has matched since!
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For all you that say Season 1 was good, I think you are sniffing glue. Good? Yeah, right up until the ripped dialog right out of The Watchmen. I can't believe Kring hasn't been sued...
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well, Heroes certainly can't get any worse, right?
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Loeb is a good start. Bring in WARREN FUCKING ELLIS for a total revamp. Carte blanche. Stop relying on Internet fandom to decide how to tell your story. "Oh, you like Sylar? OK HE WILL BE IN EVERY EPISODE AND NEVER DIE!"
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Maybe the producers saw that I just deleted Heroes from my DVR series list, after being a loyal viewer since ep 1. Finally realized the show was going nowhere, and going there in 5 minute increments at a time.
The writers just REFUSED to follow a storyline long enough to actually establish some drama and tension.
An interesting idea first season, ultimately unfulfilled.
I'll be surprised if it gets another season.
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I'd like to believe that man has more class and common-sense to be touching Heroes. If he was going to write for TV (and he doesn't need to because his other work is doing just fine for him) he should start his own thing, not continue on from someone else's shit.
That, and the studio execs would have no idea how to market or handle Ellis' style. Think we'll ever see Doktor Sleepless on the big or small screen? Not unless your average suit starts believing that there's even an audience out there for it. -
or even a series of Ghost In The Shell: Stand Alone Complex. Now _that_ would be a series worth watching.
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You find even more tricky ways to add a talkback each week. Bless you for doing so.
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I loathed his Superman/Batman. Not to mention his Challengers abortion.
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Yeah, I said it. Crossover mess.
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Well, I don't know about Loeb, but I thought Alexander was one of the strongest writers they had left. NBC, aim your sights a little higher. The problem has always be Kring himself.
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... is the best BATMAN story ever written.
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as in, i can actually watch it in the backround as i play warhammer online. i absolutely love smallville's lois lane, she's beautiful, and so much better than the actress who played lois in superman returns, kate bosworth. also, i think so far, that smallville has been nailing the relationship between lois and clark. kudos to them.
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just wanted that out there.
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This shows been incredibly disappointing since the 'epic fail' that was the Season 1 finale. Yr 2 was nearly unwatachable, while more 'interesting' this year, its full of holes. The last episode almost was the last straw...these characters are morons and EVERYTHING any character did was stupid the last ep. Its approaching smallvilles crappiest eps.nathan forgets he could fly after shuresh, claires repeatedly oblivious, elle runs gittily into building after they toss peter, daphne cant stop killing cause it 'just happened so fast', matt reads minds but cant see getting duped, peters powers of mimicky trumped by haitian and papa...wtf
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it's a fantastic show, been watching since season 2.
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Loeb and Alexander, per Kristin dos Santos of E!
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Nov 03, 2008 8:03:29 PM CST
Jeph Loeb and Warren Ellis are both terrible
by guy who got a headache and accidentally
The Long Halloween is terrible, Ellis just writes the same shit over and over. Transmetropolitan was about 70 some issues longer than it needed to be.
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Am I in some alternate dimension? What the fuck was that?? The stench on NBC's depseration is overpowering McCain's.
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http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/10/kath-kim.html
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Read Global Frequency or The Authority or his combat-magician Gravel stuff. Or NewUniversal. Or Ocean. Or Jack Cross. Or Red.
Warren Ellis could turn Noah Bennet into a sci-fi Jack Bauer.
Grant Morrison (All-Star Superman) and Mark Millar (The Ultimates) would be incredible choices to help out as well.
But really, I say fuck "Heroes." Wait till Bryan Fuller has a spare minute and hire him to start a new superhero series. Put Ellis, Millar and Morrison in his writer's room. That's your TV show. -
I also saw three episodes this season, and they blew it big time..I watched a couple of minutes out of the next couple of shows but never got back into the whole story line... It sucked big time.I mean when are we going to see something good like the first season where we got to learn about the characters?For me this season just went downhill... Firing people is never good, but for this show, it just can't get worse...
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Have you read Ellis' Next Wave? Not like his other stuff. Also Doktor Sleepless has some serious panache going on. Saying he writes the same shit over and over is like saying Debussy always sounds the same. Doesn't stop him from being brilliant.
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Damn, that's kind of fucked up, considering "Pushing Daisies" hasn't even been cancelled (although it sadly probably will be soon). How is Bryan Fuller supposed to take the news that NBC is hoping his baby gets the axe so they can absorb him back into the fold?
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we've all read X-men comics...come on now. Originality is whats called for...no more recycled Xmen plots. Do these guys justice.
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I would wager that Bryan Fuller is relieved that he has a paying gig waiting for him when Pushing Daisies gets canned.
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They were apparently beating 24 in the ratings or at least giving them a good run. NEVER underestimate the power of Jack Bauer, bitches. He just laid low until you guys imploded on your own. Look for him to put it out of its misery in January. And this time you will STAY dead!
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Fuller would probably be talented enough to get a "paycheck" regardless of what happens; I just meant the fact that NBC is openly broadcasting the fact that they hope his show is cancelled.
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You can argue writing of course, which is definitely mediocre at best. But I still say if they went overboard with the special fx, we'd all forget about the mediocre plotline.
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fx that is.
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watch his last con appearance...he seems more pissed off at american media than moore is...i dont think any of the authors you listed would want to work within the constraints of network tv...but its a nice fantasy
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your nick is bigger than your iq...i would love to see you in a battle of wits with ellis...he would rip your head off and shit in your dead skull
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from scfi wire:
"Kring has reportedly assured NBC and Universal Media Studios, which produces the series, that he intends to focus on simplifying what's been criticized, even by ardent fans, as an overly complex storytelling structure to get back to the show's comic-bookish good-vs.-evil themes and to emphasize character development more than plot twists."
Character development sounds good in theory, let's see if he pulls it off. Although I hope that simplify doesn't mean stupidfy. -
Nov 04, 2008 4:29:35 PM CST
Heroes to focus on character development and comic-book-ish-ness
by amy chasing
What could possibly go wrong?
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Nov 04, 2008 5:01:01 PM CST
Here's hoping Marvel follows Universal/NBC's example regarding L
by faelon
Yeah, The Long Halloween was a wonderfully crafted story, and he has had a few decent ones since. But everything he has touched in the past few years has turned to feces. And no it's not just fanboy bitching. Read Ultimates 3. It is awful on almost every level. It's like some weird deviant sexual fan fiction. One of the more telling examples of how bad his writing is is the just released Ultimate Captain America Annual. Some preview pages were released just showing the art, without any dialogue yet. They were fantastic, and were in and of themselves telling a great story silently. Then they added Loabs words, and they turned to garbage.
Once you read and see what he did to Ultimates with Ultimates 3, it is easy to recognize almost the exact same patern of character abuse going on in Heroes. He may have once been a decent writer. But apparently his muse died years ago. he probably strangled it in some weird incestuous psycho-robo-sexual fantasy play.
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