Cool News
Whedon: Original DOLLHOUSE Pilot Will Not See Air!! Plus BUFFY/GALACTICA Writer Jane Espenson Has Joined The Show!!
I am – Hercules!!
What we heard earlier about Joss Whedon’s original “Dollhouse” pilot airing as the series’ second episode?
Never mind.
Apparently Fox is not going to air that original pilot at all. Whedon himself explains in a post on his worship-site, Whedonesque.com:
The original pilot was in fact thrown out. Again, at my behest. Once it became clear what paradigm the Network was shooting for, it just didn't fit at all, even after I'd reshot more than half of it (see above re: despair).
A bit further down the post, there’s this:
I will be crying on the shoulder of Jane Espenson come Monday, so congratudolences are in order. Excited for the Jane Flava.
Me also. “Galactica” vet Espenson was my favorite “Buffy” writer not named Joss.
Espenson tells AICN via email that her contract with NBC Universal expired in May, and she has joined Fox's "Dollhouse" as consulting producer, effective tomorrow.
Espenson is just the latest "Angel" writer to join "Dollhouse," following Tim Minear, Steven S. DeKnight, Sarah Fain and Liz Craft.
I was here going to link to Whedon’s entire Whedonesque post, but Whedonesque seems to be momentarily broken, so here’s the whole thing, which you can read without clicking anything:
What happened when the lights went out.
Sadly, this is not a naughty post. It's just Joss nattering on again.
I thought it was time to check in with you once again, gentle viewers. Or readers. Or pictures-looker-ats (that might be viewers). Also listeners, sniffers, haberdashers, Olympic hopefuls, the elderly, the youngerdly, and the mighty state of Oregon (go Oregon-based sports franchise!) Welcome all. Welcome... to me.
What's me up to? I'm glad me asked. Me've (I'm not doing that any more) been working on a little show called Dollhouse. Yes, perhaps you've read about how it's blazing an untrammeled path to surefire success, with nary a hitch or a hiccup, just pure blazing blazery, comet-like and meteoresque. What's that, you say? You've read other things? Dark, Yog-Sothothy rumors about shutdowns and delays? Poppycock! They’re true. But I never pass up a chance to say "poppycock". ("Balderdash" is so '07. Let it go.) I know there's been a lot of concern, various fabulous hues of panic alert readiness. So here's the skinny. Some of the names have been changed.
The show was ruined by Flim Flinear. Okay, that's another lie, and you're probably close to giving up on this blog, so here we go. Yes, we've had to make adjustments. Yes, it's been hard and I've been depressing to be around for awhile. Basically, the Network and I had different ideas about what the tone of the show would be. They bought something somewhat different than what I was selling them, which is not that uncommon in this business. Their desires were not surprising: up the stakes, make the episodes more stand-alone, stop talking about relationships and cut to the chase. Oh, and add a chase. That you can cut to. Nothing I hadn't heard before on my other shows (apparently my learning curve has no bendy part) but frustrating as hell given our circumstances - a pilot shot, scripts written, everybody marching together/gainfully employed... and then a shutdown. Glad I was for the breathing room, but it's hardly auspicious. So back into the writer cave I went, wondering why I put up with this when I can make literally dozens of dollars making internet movies. Why I do put up with this is divided into three parts.
One: They're not wrong. Oh, we don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but wanting the first episodes to be exciting and accessible is not exactly Satanic. Being Satan is, but that's in their free time and hey, there's no judging in the Dollhouse. This kind of back and forth has happened on every show I've done, so if you liked those, chances are that was a part of why. And the need to focus on the essentials of what makes this universe tick - and which wire to cut to make it stop - really does bring up our game. So we as a staff have gone from blinking like unhoused moles to delving in with the same relish we had when we started. The show is really coming together now, in a way that I believe excites us and satisfies the Network. Of course, I have no idea if anybody else will like it, but I have the same faith in the staff, the crew and the remarkable cast that I always did. More, in fact. And what's more crucial:
Two: Nothing essential has changed about the universe. The ideas and relationships that intrigued me from the start are all there (though some have shifted, more on that), and the progression of the first thirteen eps has me massively excited. The episode we're shooting now I wrote as fast as anything I have before, not because I had to (although, funny side-note: I had to) but because I couldn't stop the words from coming. Because I can feel the show talking to me; delighting, scaring and occasionally even offending me. It's alive. Alive! Which is a far cry from how I felt a month ago. It's been hilarious trying to keep up with what's in, what's out, who's met whom and when - we've shot all of the first seven episodes out of airing order - but it's come together in a pretty thrilling way. My huge gratitude to our cast for their precision and patience. Which also includes...
Three: Eliza. Watching her on the monitors at two o'clock this morning I was reminded forcibly how much I wished I were in bed – but also how strong, radiant and unmistakable her presence is. She's someone who could coast on talent and never ever does. I love to watch her work. In fact, I think I got myself into this mess for that very reason, and though I have this fall occasionally sworn never to eat lunch with an actor I like again, I’m pretty pleased and crazy proud.
So here's me, slogging away on a show like days of old and not hating life. Again, you guys will be the judge, jury and execu... lawyer, but we do have something to show you. Something, I'm chuffed to say, still pretty damn strange.
As for what's been changed, well, some things I obviously can't tell you. Some I can, for the record: The original pilot was in fact thrown out. Again, at my behest. Once it became clear what paradigm the Network was shooting for, it just didn't fit at all, even after I'd reshot more than half of it (see above re: despair). To get a sense of how completely turned around I was during this process, you should know there was a scene with Eliza and the astonishing Ashley Johnson that I wrote and shot completely differently three different times, with different characters in different places (actually I wrote it closer to eight times), and none of it will ever see air. Which is as it should be (though I'm determined to get Ms. Johnson back in the future). The scene just didn't belong anymore. Similarly, the character of November has fallen out of the mix, because the show simply moves too fast now for me to do what I wanted with her. Season three, anyone...? Happily, Miracle Laurie is still with us in a new role, playing against (and pining for) Tahmoh's character, Paul Ballard. Their chemistry is deeply nifty. The only other major cast shift is that the Dollhouse head of security, Laurence Dominic (played by Reed Diamond), who was written just for the now-defunct first ep, has stuck like fly-paper, and Reed is very much in the family for the present. (Most of my problems seem to involve my actors making themselves indispensable. This is the good problem kind.)
Apart from that, it's all hush-hush: some things I'd intended to hold back are laid out much sooner, and some are rolling out more slowly. We're still heading toward Tim's intense two-part mind-blower - right before a thirteenth ep that may actually just be insane.
And finally, young Steve DeKnight, after writing and shooting an ep so cool it helped not only define the show but save its ass, is ending his consulting duties, the f#%&er. I will be crying on the shoulder of Jane Espenson come Monday, so congratudolences are in order. Excited for the Jane Flava.
And there you have it. I'll be writing more bulletins about "Cabin" and a certain DVD in the very near future, but I wanted to get you all some actual information for a change. I can count on you guys not to tell anyone, right? What's a blog?
Faithfully, -joss.
“Dollhouse” hits the Fox network early next year.
Two DVDs For $10 Sale!! 
Three-For-Two Blu-Ray Sale!!
Sadly, this is not a naughty post. It's just Joss nattering on again.
I thought it was time to check in with you once again, gentle viewers. Or readers. Or pictures-looker-ats (that might be viewers). Also listeners, sniffers, haberdashers, Olympic hopefuls, the elderly, the youngerdly, and the mighty state of Oregon (go Oregon-based sports franchise!) Welcome all. Welcome... to me.
What's me up to? I'm glad me asked. Me've (I'm not doing that any more) been working on a little show called Dollhouse. Yes, perhaps you've read about how it's blazing an untrammeled path to surefire success, with nary a hitch or a hiccup, just pure blazing blazery, comet-like and meteoresque. What's that, you say? You've read other things? Dark, Yog-Sothothy rumors about shutdowns and delays? Poppycock! They’re true. But I never pass up a chance to say "poppycock". ("Balderdash" is so '07. Let it go.) I know there's been a lot of concern, various fabulous hues of panic alert readiness. So here's the skinny. Some of the names have been changed.
The show was ruined by Flim Flinear. Okay, that's another lie, and you're probably close to giving up on this blog, so here we go. Yes, we've had to make adjustments. Yes, it's been hard and I've been depressing to be around for awhile. Basically, the Network and I had different ideas about what the tone of the show would be. They bought something somewhat different than what I was selling them, which is not that uncommon in this business. Their desires were not surprising: up the stakes, make the episodes more stand-alone, stop talking about relationships and cut to the chase. Oh, and add a chase. That you can cut to. Nothing I hadn't heard before on my other shows (apparently my learning curve has no bendy part) but frustrating as hell given our circumstances - a pilot shot, scripts written, everybody marching together/gainfully employed... and then a shutdown. Glad I was for the breathing room, but it's hardly auspicious. So back into the writer cave I went, wondering why I put up with this when I can make literally dozens of dollars making internet movies. Why I do put up with this is divided into three parts.
One: They're not wrong. Oh, we don't see eye-to-eye on everything, but wanting the first episodes to be exciting and accessible is not exactly Satanic. Being Satan is, but that's in their free time and hey, there's no judging in the Dollhouse. This kind of back and forth has happened on every show I've done, so if you liked those, chances are that was a part of why. And the need to focus on the essentials of what makes this universe tick - and which wire to cut to make it stop - really does bring up our game. So we as a staff have gone from blinking like unhoused moles to delving in with the same relish we had when we started. The show is really coming together now, in a way that I believe excites us and satisfies the Network. Of course, I have no idea if anybody else will like it, but I have the same faith in the staff, the crew and the remarkable cast that I always did. More, in fact. And what's more crucial:
Two: Nothing essential has changed about the universe. The ideas and relationships that intrigued me from the start are all there (though some have shifted, more on that), and the progression of the first thirteen eps has me massively excited. The episode we're shooting now I wrote as fast as anything I have before, not because I had to (although, funny side-note: I had to) but because I couldn't stop the words from coming. Because I can feel the show talking to me; delighting, scaring and occasionally even offending me. It's alive. Alive! Which is a far cry from how I felt a month ago. It's been hilarious trying to keep up with what's in, what's out, who's met whom and when - we've shot all of the first seven episodes out of airing order - but it's come together in a pretty thrilling way. My huge gratitude to our cast for their precision and patience. Which also includes...
Three: Eliza. Watching her on the monitors at two o'clock this morning I was reminded forcibly how much I wished I were in bed – but also how strong, radiant and unmistakable her presence is. She's someone who could coast on talent and never ever does. I love to watch her work. In fact, I think I got myself into this mess for that very reason, and though I have this fall occasionally sworn never to eat lunch with an actor I like again, I’m pretty pleased and crazy proud.
So here's me, slogging away on a show like days of old and not hating life. Again, you guys will be the judge, jury and execu... lawyer, but we do have something to show you. Something, I'm chuffed to say, still pretty damn strange.
As for what's been changed, well, some things I obviously can't tell you. Some I can, for the record: The original pilot was in fact thrown out. Again, at my behest. Once it became clear what paradigm the Network was shooting for, it just didn't fit at all, even after I'd reshot more than half of it (see above re: despair). To get a sense of how completely turned around I was during this process, you should know there was a scene with Eliza and the astonishing Ashley Johnson that I wrote and shot completely differently three different times, with different characters in different places (actually I wrote it closer to eight times), and none of it will ever see air. Which is as it should be (though I'm determined to get Ms. Johnson back in the future). The scene just didn't belong anymore. Similarly, the character of November has fallen out of the mix, because the show simply moves too fast now for me to do what I wanted with her. Season three, anyone...? Happily, Miracle Laurie is still with us in a new role, playing against (and pining for) Tahmoh's character, Paul Ballard. Their chemistry is deeply nifty. The only other major cast shift is that the Dollhouse head of security, Laurence Dominic (played by Reed Diamond), who was written just for the now-defunct first ep, has stuck like fly-paper, and Reed is very much in the family for the present. (Most of my problems seem to involve my actors making themselves indispensable. This is the good problem kind.)
Apart from that, it's all hush-hush: some things I'd intended to hold back are laid out much sooner, and some are rolling out more slowly. We're still heading toward Tim's intense two-part mind-blower - right before a thirteenth ep that may actually just be insane.
And finally, young Steve DeKnight, after writing and shooting an ep so cool it helped not only define the show but save its ass, is ending his consulting duties, the f#%&er. I will be crying on the shoulder of Jane Espenson come Monday, so congratudolences are in order. Excited for the Jane Flava.
And there you have it. I'll be writing more bulletins about "Cabin" and a certain DVD in the very near future, but I wanted to get you all some actual information for a change. I can count on you guys not to tell anyone, right? What's a blog?
Faithfully, -joss.
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Just like when Serenity went off the rails, this is Joss doing brave face. Dollhouse is doomed. Whenever Joss steps out to make these "don't worry" speeches, it's time to worry.
Love the man's work, but he must have blown up a mirror factory. -
I just have that sinking feeling I'll be wrapped in another show where it gets cancelled right when things get compelling. I'm getting tired of shows I like that end up with loose ends. It's like Carnivale all ove again.
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It's a shame the network is digging it's nasty fingers in so deeply, but as long as the core of Joss' vision remains, the show should still be tons-o-fun. Here's hoping...
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...by episode six. Write this down.
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if the "paradigm the Network was shooting for" does match the show's creator's, that would be like having a show about spaceships and taking it into a network that wants a show about trains. I wonder what would happen to that show? (oh wait)
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...particularly the pilot. And they foisted a Friday night time slot on Firefly--wrong slot for the target audience.If Joss is to be blamed for anything, here, it is for giving Fox another chance to Frak with his work again.
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I'm not entirely sold on the premise, but Whedon has built up enough cred to earn some leeway for a while.
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i heard it was apparently all lame and Willow-less.
that said, stuff like 'the Network and I had different ideas about what the tone of the show would be'
is hardly the kind of talk that would make you do the happy-dance. I mean, i like Fringe and Terminator but i strongly doubt that its the genuises (genii?) at Fox who are responsible for making me like them. i get that it's no longer the same people who shitcanned Firefly but you really have to wonder why Whedon doesn't deal with folk that get his stuff: hell Universal gave him a movie, wouldn't they finance his next series?
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That dude in the suit is totally staring at that chick's rack. I know, because I was, too.
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if the show gets cancelled. I'm gonna watch it, I love Whedon's stuff, but if it gets cancelled and he starts bitching about FOX again, I'm gonna track him down and fucking slap him in the face.
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and keep the shit. Sort of. Not really. But Wonderfalls is one of the biggest tragedies ever.
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I mean because he decided to do another show for fox, not because fox didn't actually screw him over in the past or anything.
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Fox and their cancelling of great shows in the past makes me almost not want to check Dollhouse out and just wait until there is a full season order. Of course, i WILL check it out though. I've been a bit bored by Fringe, so lets hope this new Fox show is better.
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I like Whedon's work a lot but reading that blog post made me want to gouge out my eyes and then hunt him down and break every one of this fingers then scream, "STOP WRITING LIKE A DOUCHE!!!" I'm all for stylized dialogue in TV shows (if it fits the show) but reading it in a blog from a literate adult is like paper-cuts on my eyeballs.
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I'm so glad you said it and not me. I love, love, LOVE Whedon's work... but for fuck's sake, don't make me read like I watch. I couldn't put my finger on what it was... but yeah, stop writing like a douche.
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But Fox would have only greenlit a series after they'd read a full script (or, more usually, after the pilot had been made). So why do they commission a series based on something they don't like? I was interested in Dollhouse when I heard that the original pilot was melancholy and philosophical. If it's going to be more action-orientated, then we've already seen it in Alias and Buffy. No bad thing, maybe, but I was looking forward to something genuinely thought-provoking. This chopping and changing does not make me hopeful.
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so does joss...jk
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I ran into anger at another board where I questioned the logic behind the whole 'let's ditch a lot of what you've done, and start again' approach. Personally, I'm not watching this until I'm convinced it has staying power. It hurts too much to watch something I think'll fail, especially if the central idea is batshit insane.
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I'd guess they thought they were buying an Alias-type show where every week Eliza's character is programmed to break into somewhere top secret using newly programmed skillz and beating up guards. Whereas it seems Joss was aiming more for Eliza to be programmed to be some sort of escort each week...
So I'd expect more gunplay in the "new" Dollhouse and less escort serivce (an escort service without the handjobs...)
It will be interesting to see if the original pilot ends up on DVD so we can see what he was originally aiming for. -
YES. Whedon's jaunty forays into the English language are pretentious and--at a certain point--completely unreadable... Douchery to be sure. Fuck, now he's infecting me with his writerly douchery... Ugh.
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but starbuck doesnt do it for me. plus her boobs look fake or engineered...OH OMG shes a Cylon!!! oh wait i forgot i dont give a crap. The ad looks perverted though.
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I don't view this as bad news, nor did I feel Joss was trying to pump a show he wasn't genuinely excited about. Fox seems a little more patient these days, so I'm expecting at least a season out of it. He's three for three, so I doubt I'll be disappointed with it. And no, he should do movies. He sucks at movies. TV is where he's strongest.
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Yeah, I'd rank Serenity alongside his best... okay, maybe not his best TV stuff, but that was a damn good writing/directing cinematic debut.
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I thought I was just in a bad mood. It's one thing to hear that stuff from young actors, but when it's a dude approaching middle age, it feels a little creepy.
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Stop working for FOX. Thay screw everything, from movies to TV Series.
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I mean, would we know that thenetwork Ickes the show apart and it's nit quite Joss's actual vision, the delays, changes, etc, would we know any of this were it not for these updates? Most of us would just settle in on the shows premier date, happy to give the geeky fun premise a chance. Now we'll be watching constantly wondering, what if...
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I think Whedon has every right to be pissed at Fox. I was very lucky to have caught onto Firefly after it was yanked, so I actually watched it in the order it was intended... the order on the DVDs.
After I finished watching it, I tried re-watching it some months later in the way Fox released them on air, just out of curiousity. Despite the fact that I'd already seen the show, it made no sense whatsoever. You ended up with character introductions AFTER the character has already been on the show! Whoever decided to do that was a complete idiot, so, yeah, I think Whedon had a right to be a little miffed, not to mention everyone else who liked the show and had to watch it get canned or who followed up with it on DVD only to end up to the inevitable "THAT'S the end?!?!" :) -
This coming from the network whose top two series', 24 and Prison Break, are completely continuous?? It really sucks, because those are the types of shows I like, ones that tell ONE story throughout all their episodes, not ones where the episodes are designed to stand by themselves.
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I 100% agree with you. I'd prefer if the series were more like 24 and Lost in style rather than cookie-cutter enemy-of-the-week episodes. Granted, Doohouse's premise DOES suit itself to that type of show, but I'd like to expect more from it than that. I guess we'll see.
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*Dollhouse's
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AICN can make or break things. In this case, it has burned the DOLLHOUSE. This show is as good as axed. We all just have to accept it and move on.
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Writing like a douche = Oh shit, Fox fucked me again! *cries*
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don't start the 'save the show' campaigns yet. This seems like typical growing pains of any interesting genre show. The difference is that we have an inside scoop because Joss has a fanbase he likes to inform about stuff. I'm not worried. Joss wouldn't do something if it was totally dumbed down, so if he's happy AND the studio's happy, where's the downside? I'm curious why November was written out, but I'm also geeked that Reed Diamond is on the show - classic Homicide actor, also great in Journeyman. Can't wait for January - new Lost, BSG, 24, Dollhouse.
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Every time Joss rolls out with the "don't worry" speech, everything rides right to shit. We got one for Serenity, it was dumped in Sept. and bombed. we got one for Wonder Woman, and it died, and now Dollhouse. He's three for three all right. I like his stuff but I'm not going to bother until season 2 is announced. I don't want to get interested in a show that's destined to fail even before it aire. And based on history, and Joss' reactions to said history, it's cooked.
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While it wasn't bad, there were a few things I didn't like about it. Killing off Wash and Book for one. Especially Book who had at least as interesting a back story going on as River. The second thing that irked me about the movie is the way Jane was turned into some sort of good Samaritan. He would have never gone into Reaver territory like that (maybe if great riches were involved). In fact, they seemed to soften the whole "thieve" angle for the movie. And although River was eventually going to become the Buffy that she was in the movie, I liked her more as the quirky Fred type who would occasionally wow and perplex us. I dunno, I guess I just don't like movies as much as TV because there's no subtlety to be had in a two-hour story.
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joss obviously loves to read everything that joss posts.
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please don't speak or blog - i'm trying to enjoy your work, here, but every time i hear some of that "clever and funny" dialogue in one of your shows now, i'm reminded of a middle-aged douchebag writing this kind of shit on his fan site.
please stop. just make shows/movies. -
...but he wasn't completely unprincipled. The Alliance had murdered an entire colony, and that didn't set right with him. And the Alliance was going to come after them hard no matter what they did, so better to stick a thumb in their eye than lie back and wait for it.
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it took him two attempts to do something Fox asked and still he could'nt get it right, now he is relying on all the old show writers to come and bail his ass out. Crossing fingers for this to fail hard .....wonder where Media Messiah is at?
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And wow he was always a merciless, thieving bastard, he was starting to change a bit in the series. So it makes sense that he would change a bit for the movie. However you must keep in mind that he went into reaver territory because of what had happened...remember all of Mal's contacts were murdered...so even if Jayne revolted and got off the ship somewhere, he would have been tracked down and killed by the Alliance.
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suck it!
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But it looks like we will all be buying the 12 eps. DVD of this later next year after FOX fucking cancels this after half a year. Like they do everything else. I wish Joss would learn his lesson and not deal with FOX anymore because he keeps getting prison raped every time by them because they don't like shows with character development...
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I was repeatedly attacked on Whedoneque.com and web sites that they often link to for pointing out flaws in the advanced footage of the show that I saw...specifically a sequence where Elisa was not emoting probably opposite an actor from Galactica who was great. Instead of viewing my words as positive criticisms, I was ruthlessly and repeatedly attacked by Whedon's other fans, and then later harrassed by a Whedonesque contributor several times for no reason other than the fact that I said that Elisa could have done a better job and Joss seemed reluctant to really director her...and tell her to step up and deliver a better performance. I know Elisa can do that as she was great as Faith, in every performance...but when you are dating a guy who has just been paid 100 million dollars by Fox, well, that can make you lazy...and it seems to have had just that effect on her...and quite frankly, I think Joss Whedon even shied down in the face of her boyfriend for industry politics sake, and that is no good.Anyway, all my criticism appear to have been shared by the vast majority of Fox execs who have been in fighting over the series, a fact that has been admitted, due to the flaws in the show. I hope Joss has taken my advice and added clarty to the series and given Elisa's character, Echo...a permanent personality, that of a mature young woman, instead of the 5 year old personality she is said to have in between missions, I mean, how can 18 thru 25...and even 35, audiences, etc., relate to a 5 year old in a woman's body...episode after episode??? I don't find that to be a turn on, or interesting, who would or could, except 5 year olds???
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It's good!!!
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I fear it is going to suck harder than Paris Hilton on the best day of her life.
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I'm just getting over my girlfriend dumping me. It seems I was actually blessed by that as she never gave equal reciprocity in the relationship...and a woman can't respect a push over, and that was me, the push over.About Joss, I love this guy, he really has the potential to be another Spielberg in his brightest days, but Hollywood hasn't really opened the doors to him as a filmmaker in the way that they should, I don't know, maybe the guy is a jerk, but I haven't heard any negatives about him behind the scenes, still who knows??? As for the show, quite frankly, if Elisa wasn't dating that rich boyfriend of her's, Joss would have really put it to her, told her to get her act together and come to work well studied...but he hasn't, and I think that is the show's biggest problem.
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and I for one have never forgiven them for cancelling Odyssey 5.
Cunts. -
Joss Whedon had a great fall
All of Fox's horses
And all of Fox's men
Couldn't put Dollhouse together again -
I think he 'sold his soul' to them to get Buffy made the way he wanted it made. And now for eternity he has to hand over all his TV shows to them; just to watch them shred them to pieces. I'd quit. I'd write comic books. Novels about Dollhouses and Buffy in the midst of a life-or-death struggle! Course there's the money thing... unlike most showbiz illusions, I doubt he is wealthy enough to just sit back and enjoy himself doing what he wants and so... off to hell forever and ever!! Buffy was great, but really... worth it?? I don't think so.
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You managed to find your way to this Whedon t/b not noticed you about in a while. Sucks about the whole Gf thing she sounded like.... well your typical woman you well rid of her, try to think once you make it big it'll be all coke and whores FTW. As for Dollhouse I think everything was pretty well summed up in the last t/b Herc posted about how all is still good and there be nothing to worry about when clearly things are falling apart fast. I wonder who he will blame this time?
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The preview of the pilot looked awful. Cheesy and cheap. And since Angel and Buffy are my two favorite shows evert, I was a little sad about that.
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Is equating yourself with Fox executives really what you want to do?
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A network not being happy with a pilot and wanting it reworked is one thing, but to keep taking bites at the apple to the degree that it throws off the production schedule for the actual series?
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My ex-girlfriend, wow...she could be a really nice girl seemingly, and has great potential in life to do many great things through her educational and charitable works, I mean a real life hero...but she has issues related to an illness and I think I can't save her along either one of those lines. People can sometimes become fatalistic hedonists, or they can become saints when dealing with serious illness, and in this case, she has become something of both, and it is sad to see...but if I can't save her, I guess this break-up of ours, is God's way of saving me from drowning with her??? Still, I would have held on in order to give her emotional support, but this was her choice, and it is really no good for me to be with someone who willfully does not have my best interests in mind, illness or not.About Whedon, I don't know about him anymore??? I mean, I am a fan, and I study his works as a writer with great interest and respect. I even feel that he is a very special director, but how he keeps getting himself into these messes, I will never know, and now it is hard to even feel sorry for him or fight for him...as I use to, at this point??? I mean, he is a millionaire, why should I care, especially when I am struggling and don't have a dollar or a penny in the bank of my own???
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Fool me once Fox, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me a dozen times and you get your fuckin' network boycotted. I love Joss' work, but I'm sorry to say that I'll be waiting until the entire thing is done before I watch it. Nose? Spite? Face? Maybe. But I stand by these sage words (uttered after the half-witted cancellations of Futurama, Millennium, Firefly, Angel and Wonderfalls) : fuck you, Fox.
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There are two groups, one...the top VIPs who support Whedon based on name value only, and marketing teams on the other side, who feel that the show is too much of an enigma, story wise. I just find it interesting that the latter group of Fox execs, agree with me, as if they read my posts, having pointed out similar problems I have ID'd in terms of the plot, point by point??? This initially started with one exec who was named as having problems with the execution of the series, and then, several months later, whole groups of others were indentified in the marketing department at Fox. Again, only the top VIPs back the show, according to media reports and only due to Whedon's rep. Now, who are the bad, or good execs here, well, Joss seems to even admit that there is a major problem with the series, so it doesn't appear like the old regime has anything to do with it, and Joss claims that those people are all gone from Fox...and were gone, long before he returned, thus it appears that this one is solely on Joss' shoulders this time around???
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Jesus, having a conversation with this guy really must be like talking with a hyper teenage girl...
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If you invite a storyteller into your house
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Sing for your supper, dude.
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we're not juggeling vampires here
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get the feeling that this show might just be ..... ok at first. and then if it gets to stay around, and the network chills out, then maybe it will grow into something awesome (kinda like buffy) i can't help but think joss is putting just a little more positive spin on this thing than he really feels
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Not much room for one more.
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Seriously. How many times until we all learn our lesson? The leadership there just ain't interested in scifi. Period end.
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Gotta love it when the show runner is doing damage control even before a single episode airs.
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Why does everyone pick on Fox? They liked the numbers that FRINGE pulled in and went right to ordering a full season. If DOLLHOUSE debuts as well and shows some legs, I'm sure they'll keep it going. They're not looking to lose money, they want to make some coin. And for all the fan boy bitching, the truth is FIREFLY wasn't pulling in the ratings and shows like DRIVE were true disasters. So you got to cut them some slack.As for DOLLHOUSE I agree with TallBoy. It just seems from all the early press that its already a mess behind the scenes. I'll give it a try, but I'm betting it's already a clusterfuck and odds are its dead by week 3.
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The reason us fanboys pick on Fox is because they don't stand by their own product. They ask us, the viewers, to make an investment in a series, and then pull it from the airwaves without any respect for that. Which other industry would get away with pulling that kind of shit? Sorry guys, the numbers have just come in, and, gee, it looks like there ain't enough people watchin'. We ain't playin' the rest of this game. Hit the showers.
I appreciate that TV series are expensive to make and that not all of them pan out, but Fox seem particularly guilty of pre-empting shows for football, moving them around the schedules so no-one knows when they're showing, playing them out of sequence, and taking long unexpected breaks between episodes. I wish nothing but the best for Dollhouse. Joss Whedon deserves to catch a break after the shabby treatment Firefly received, but like I said, I won't be watching because I don't feel like being kicked in the nuts again by Fox. -
I think that we should start a petition to save the tv show Angel.......wait a minute!
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Is Whedon gay? If so, he should get together with Russell T Davis (didn't The Doctor appear in one of Whedon's recent Buffy comics?) and write a tv show together.
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I really think that Eliza has a big league performance hiding in her
And Josh might be the guy to provoke it out of her -
how Fox can continually abuse Whedon...I mean they must have learned by now that the guy has a fanbase that will stick by him and have patience to see a show develop (I mean I hated Firefly when I first started watching but by the end of the second ep I was glad I made the investment in it)...but they continually screw the guy over. He's like a TV version of Terry Gillima only with less impressive visuals amd more writing flare. Plus I cant get how Fox got rid of Arrested Development AND Wonderfalls...I mean two the best tv shows in the past ten years (and in the case of AD, one of the best shows EVER) and this company fucks around and drops them. I mean...I just don't get it. Every American show I get hooked on either comes from Fox or HBO, but from the get go I know which one will have more longevity...sigh. In England I complain that Peep Show only gets 6 episodes a series despite the obvious fan base for it, but at least that gets a yearly commission-going to Fox seems a guaranteed death march for quality shows. Can't Whedon go to HBO and just start Firefly series 2? I know, I know....
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Oct 28, 2008 8:47:40 AM CDT
Hearing Whedon Dialogue is Like Jamming Pencils in My Ears
by aquatarkusman
It's like Sorkin for the Food Court. And, as Mr. Monkey points out, we probably have him to blame for the rise of Diablo.
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I say we start an online petition right now and just build massive amounts of signatures before the show even starts. This way, by the time the show starts and we all get hooked, and around the same time the idiots at FOX are like, "We've got 'em! Now fuck 'em!" we can slap them with the petition. Writing campaigns have saved some shows before, or at least got one more season or a movie out of them. Since the odds are in favor of another great show getting scrapped and more frustration on our part, I think this is a good idea. Thoughts.
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Looks like Pushing Daisies is going down the drain...let's face it, network TV can't support anything remotely smart. Look at how dumbed down Heroes is and even it can't keep a decent audience.
http://www.myspace.com/tkurata -
First off, you give FOX too much credit. While I like FRINGE a lot and hope it succeeds, because of Abrams' pull they ordered a full 22-ep season before production started. There have been rumors that they actually want better ratings on that show than they're getting. Second, you just made the point many people are making. You said DOLLHOUSE might not make it past 3 eps. 3 eps is not enought time to give a show to develop a fan base. This day and age a lot of fans do not discover shows until mid-season because there are so many shows on TV. I know they want ratings and ad money right away, but they would do better in the long run if they allow a show to develop. A lot of time the downfall of a show comes from network interference. Whether you liked ALIAS or not, fans of the show agree that the first few seasons were much better than the last few. That is because ABC forced ABRAMS to get away from longer story arcs and do more standalone eps. Sound familiar. Oh yeah, FOX just told WHEDON the same damn thing. When will these morons at the networks learn?
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I have no problem with Fox canceling shows that aren't delivering, but the problem is that they never give a show time to deliver anymore. Some of the most beloved shows ever had very slow starts ratings wise (Seinfeld, The X-Files...). Given time to grow, those series ended up being huge successes. Fox pulls a show after 3 or 4 episodes if it doesn't bring in huge numbers. I'm going to remain hopeful about Dollhouse. Denial? Perhaps, but I am in need of good TV, so come on Whedon! Such high hopes for Fringe were completely dashed. I keep watching in hopes it'll get better (see above argument), but man that is one dull show with leaden actors delivering mediocre dialog. What happened Abrams?
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When it was Fox who said, "dude, come make a show on OUR network," you should have run screaming frmo the room. After the 'Firefly' debacle, how could you trust them again? Ughhh. You foolish, foolish, brilliant, dashing and yet foolish man. Why aren't you working on a new season of 'Firefly' for the SciFi Channel? (Firefly for SciFi? Intersting catchphrase, must remember to write that down.) Dammit, go with what works, and put it on NBC. Because, you know, 'Heroes' is tanking, and we could all use a little science fiction with our Tuesday nights. Except for 'Knight Rider,' which blows chunks. I thank you.
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Do you work at Fox or something? What evidence do you have that the Fox execs are 'on your side'? Obviously nothing denigrating has been said about Eliza (not Elisa) and her performance - in fact, the opposite has been said. How are you able to judge this show from one outtake from one scene? It hasn't even aired yet! All these people with their 'clusterfuck' doomsaying are really annoying. Again, many shows go through this kind of tweaking. It's not a quick and easy concept like, say, Knight Rider. And they're trying to make it work. As far as I'm concerned, his 3 network shows have been 3 for 3 in excellence, and any problems the shows had were very obviously the networks' fault (the WB/UPN wrangling, and Fox's mishandling of Firefly). So I have Faith (pardon the pun).
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he's going to abuse us with words
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WTF they were doing.
That's showbiz. -
I agree that "Fringe" is "one dull show with leaden actors delivering mediocre dialog," password.swordfish. Man, I was so hopeful for it and now I'm not. I watched the first two episodes -- the second one out of admiring respect for JJ -- but was brutally disappointed. I'm stunned by how bad it's turned out to be, in all honesty. Cringeworthy dialogue, one-note characters, laughably stupid science lacking any basis in the real world, and an utter lack of drive or creativity on all levels are just a few of my complaints. I don't know if the studio is interfering, but someone new needs to take over this show. Like, yesterday. First order of business: kill off the main blonde agent and replace her with a better actress and a more interesting character. Second order of business: kill off the father and son "geniuses" and replace them with more interesting non-geniuses. Or else pull a more enigmatic character who might or might not be a genius onto the show. Because, man, I can't gag down even five minutes of the story now.
So, of course, I'm fired up for "Dollhouse." I'm hoping Joss delivers a story with a pulse and good characters we can actually care about and root for. I'll definitely make popcorn and check out the first episode. Can't wait. -
and this our problem how?
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Did you to be skywalker_family aka gotham_knight?
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nope
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and
this
is unforgivable -
...battered wife syndrome. He keeps going back.
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Oct 28, 2008 6:36:27 PM CDT
Canceled Mid-Season, Creates Cult Following, Film Released, FOX
by laserpants
Search your crushed feelings, you know it to be true.
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I really hate that the headlines are so short now.
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I thought my girlfriend had come back to me, but she is gone for good, so forgive me for not really being into this right now. Hence the reason my normal cheerleading for Joss is more like an F**k you!!! Maybe I'm pissed that he didn't offer me a job or something that I could have used to save my relationship??? Forgive me if that is the mental pathology of it. Life sucks!!!As far as what I know about Dollhouse, the info was in a New York newspaper, I saw a link online a little over a month ago...I think it may have been the New York Times, but honestly I am not sure, but high ranking Fox execs were named, and at least one quoted in the article. The VIPs, indicated that they back Joss 100 and 10% but the reporter kept quoting inside information about the marketing department execs who weren't liking what they were seeing, charging that the show was too bysantne with no clear concept for them to sell to the public. Anyway, a top Fox exec, I believe a female, kept saying that these debates always happen with every series and that it is not a bad sign, just the average course of doing business, and thus standard operating proceedure to have open debates among their execs, at least for their ears only.And no, I am not a Fox exec, but I wish I was, it would give me some needed distraction over losing the love of my life!!! How could someone just walk away that easily without a second thought about how it might affect the person left in the ashes of their choice??? She's a good girl, most of the time, but women can be as cold as steel sometimes, and I can't understand it??? I mean, what if she is wrong, how do you repair that when you have fallen out of contact and many years have passed??? It is a bit like being trapped in a prison, somewhere in the Twilght Zone, when you think about the irony of it all??? You can be as innocent as they come, but you know, there is no hope, and you are never going to get out.
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ehh
we have the same barber maybe> -
I am a dyslexic, and I always debate as to which way to spell her name. I could have easily checked, but my problems with my girl, my ex who I will never see or hear from again, have taken over my mind. I am only here to try to focus myself on something else, but it isn't working very well. About that scene in Dollhouse. It was just terrible. The Galactica guy, who I am not a fan of BTW, stole the scene with little effort, but Eliza just didn't show-up to the act, and I am a big fan of her's, so I would rather kiss her ass...than insult her, but what I have said is true!!! It really felt like I was watching a seasoned stage actor, the Galactica guy, who was being asked to deliver a scene with a Jr. Highschool level actress...and one that is not very good...or even practiced: it was like a cold script reading for Eliza??? The scene was about 3 and a half minutes long...and I was just shocked. As well, something was off about the directing of the scene, I don't recall why, other than Joss not forcing Eliza to emote better, but there was something else about the staging of the scene that was off, like who did what, and when??? Aw, someone startled them, the two characters, it was a person, and he, ran away. The Galactica guy pulled a gun and turned to look gun aimed and ready to fire. Eliza should have been startled as she did not know either person, instead...her hand gestures and over all acting demeanor suggested otherwise...as if this was something to be casual about??? I have been on sets all of my life, on...and off, so I know how things should play. It is like hearing a musician hit a bad note, or notes--every musician in the room is going to know it when they hear it..and in that scene, bad notes were all over the place, and obviously they were not deliberately placed, something you can also tell.
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I am a dyslexic, and I always debate as to which way to spell her name. I could have easily checked, but my problems with my girl, my ex...who I will never see or hear from again, have taken over my mind. I am only here to try to focus myself on something else, but it isn't working very well.
About that scene in Dollhouse. It was just terrible. The Galactica guy, who I am not a fan of, BTW, stole the scene with little effort, but Eliza just didn't show-up to act, and I am a big fan of her's--thusly, I would rather kiss her ass...than insult her, but what I have said is true!!! It really felt like I was watching a seasoned stage actor, the Galactica guy, who was being asked to deliver a scene with a Jr. Highschool level actress...and one that is not very good...or even practiced: it was like a cold script reading for Eliza???The scene was about 3 and a half minutes long...and I was just shocked. As well, something was off about the directing of the scene, I don't recall why, other than Joss not forcing Eliza to emote better, but there was something else about the staging of the scene that was off, like who did what, and when??? Aw, someone startled them, the two characters, it was a person, and he, ran away. The Galactica guy pulled a gun and turned to look, gun aimed and ready to fire. Eliza should have been startled as she did not know either person, instead...her hand gestures and overall acting demeanor suggested otherwise...as if this was something to be casual about??? I have been on sets all of my life, on...and off, so I know how things should play. It is like hearing a musician hit a bad note, or notes--every musician in the room is going to know it when they hear it..and in that scene, bad notes were all over the place, and obviously they were not deliberately placed, something you can also tell. -
I think it was supposed to be revealed that Echo was programmed as a detached sociopath, so that could explain the lack of emoting.
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I'm not left handed
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Will cause cancer in both males, and that other species
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there ain't no story thats gone so wrong that a screamin butt load of ninjas can't fix
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That was just a bad scene, bad acting and bad direction. That Galactica guy was the only one who showed-up to earn his paycheck.Now to sociopaths. The thing about sociopaths is that they can cast themselves as being empathic toward others, as you would expect anyone normal to act, but they really do their best to appear to be the nicest persons in the crowd and overly friendly. The reason??? The sociopath is a predator, as such, they like to manipulate people...and will play friends, family members, lovers, and others against each other, while pretending to be the victim. They can seem overly needy, kind, weak, generous, supportive, and loving...but they have no feeling for others, it is just a mask. However, when they don't feel that they have to uphold the act anymore, the beast comes out in them and they erupt upon their victim, or victims.Typically, most people will get a glimpse of whom they really are, the sociopath, on a one on one basis, as the sociopath is careful to hide their cruel and or amoral side. Most sociopaths can live with a person in close quarters for up to 2 and a half years and appear perfectly normal, but at the appex of that duration, their true character will come out and expose itself, this according to medical experts in a recent report released within the last several years.What is scary about sociopaths is it appears that there are a lot more of these people wandering around in our society than you might assume, and more than the experts are willing to inform the public about. The really scary part is that they don't believe that it is wrong to murder, rape, steal, lie, betray, torture, abuse, etc., except when it comes to someone hurting them, or taking away from them. One more thing, a sociopath is often mentored by a psychopath, and lays back in the relationship...however, after a time, the sociopath will actually take over from the psychopath and become a greater threat, not only to the victim or victims...they may target as a duo, but also to the psychopath that mentored them!!!
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All that twee language and coyness - Whedon hasn't lost his touch in "charming" his loyal followers. As for Dollhouse, it must be a real POS - he's really trying hard to sell this one, isn't he? It sounds like every other muddled genre show (Fringe, Heroes) out there now. Why does he even bother?
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Don't get me wrong, I loved Buffy, loved Angel even more and Firefly was a work of art. The problem is Joss then spends a few years writing God awful comics and then walks straight back into the shit pit with Fox. This has ensured we won't get another long running Whedon show, most probably ever. Thanks.
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Oct 29, 2008 8:18:45 AM CDT
O/T: Zach and Miri Looks About as Funny as Prostate Cancer
by aquatarkusman
Good thing I'm not seeing 1.2 million ads for it or anything.
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is going to be on Dollhouse, according to Joss.
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Just wanting to know where you got your information on sociopaths and psychopaths, cause they're actually the same thing. Sociopath is just a sociological term, while psychopath is a psychological/psychiatric term. Also, I'm getting my PhD in forensic psychology, and I've never heard any of the details you're spouting. 2 1/2 years? Do you really think people can be nailed down so easily? Some psychopaths are never overt enough to be detected (and their "loved" ones may not even be aware of the signs), while others are explicit from day one. Also, experts typically agree that there is more than one kind of psychopath and that universal emotional callousness is not found in every one. Others tend to be emotionally explosive, especially when it comes to anger. I'm not trying to be rude, but you really need to be more careful about what you spout off on, especially if you don't have a basis in the topic. It sounds like you learned all you know from serial killer movies. That kind of misinformation perpetuated doesn't help anything. Final note to Cobbio - thank god I'm not the only one! Let's keep our fingers crossed that Dollhouse comes through (I think it will).
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I heard an expert talk about sociopaths and psychopaths...and there is a difference between the two as I pointed out earlier. Now, about the psychopaths, I have never heard of them being able to go undetected, not that, that isn't true, I just learned something from you on that point, but I can tell you there was a major press report that went out a few years ago that specifically said that Sociopaths can go undetected and hide their true nature in close quarters for up to two and a half years before suddenly revealing who they really are. Another fact, a person under 8 hours of non-stop questioning by the authorities will have a psycological break and start telling the truth usually around the 8 hour point. I heard the FBI do interviews about this and thought it interesting but was unsure. Well, I was involved in a court case some years ago, and I got to see a deposition video. The suject was actively lying throughout the tape, but i noticed by the 8th hour or near that time, he began to confess all kinds of things, just like the FBI said one would act in such a climate.Now that info I gave about a psychopath giving orders to a sociopath and acting as the sociopath's mentor is what that expert talked about, I didn't say it, he did. It's been a few years since I heard the interview and I don't know his name...but I would assume that these personality types find each other in prisons, mental facilities, and drug treatment programs...and tend to be attracted to each other based upon personality alone. They possibly are also finding each other on dour web sites, like the two men who were plotting to kill blacks and Obama. It is very interesting that this came up, I used to go on the Nine Inch Nails official web site. They had a open chat room and there were some very strange personalities on that site, very violent and mean spirited...and seemingly mentally unhinged...and these individuals tended to seek each other out, and attack others on a regular basis. Threats, talk of killing, dead bodies, and stalking, were some of the fair that these people enjoyed speaking of, openly...in veiled and not so veiled manner. The point is, they found each other, and began to create clicks.I always gravitated to law enforcement fields and wanted to be an FBI agent, as well, I have been interested in Psych courses. Have I taken any, no??? But I have been around medical professionals and police officers all of my life, with several in the family or close friends, thus, I know where to look and who to ask what, on these issues. Again, if you look for the report I cited about sociopaths hiding "out in the open, for up to two and a half years in close quarters before their true persona is forced out", you can find it, just do a net search or ask some of your college professors...I'm sure one or more of them can tell you what I have said is 100 percent accurate.As far as horror films, I have only seen a handful, and most don't go into this territory of analyzing criminals in a smart fashion, if at all, and I don't like horror films, at least most of them, anyway as I believe that serve to inspire sick people. Yes, I have only seen a handful of those films, and have happly managed to avoid the rest, even tv shows like CSI!!!
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Not the information I wanted, but, it proves that I am right. This report I found through a 5 minute net search that you could have done, Mr. Psi Student, breaks down the difference between the sociopath and the psychopath. How is it that I know more about the field that you are studying than you do, somethng I knew about before bothering to look this up for you, BTW??? Nevertheless, several doctors are quoted in the report, see below, as saying that there is a difference between sociopaths and psychopaths although the terms are often made interchangable in the study of these minds, but it is misleading, as that is not true, they are not interchangable. It seems a psychopath is born, and a sociopath is born or influenced from their social environment, in other words, from psychological, physical and or sexual abuse, etc., and both types of these people seem to be everywhere, among us??? A scary thought!!! Anyway, here is the information. You can thank me when you graduate at the top of your class. Just tell everyone that a dylexic genius taught you this on the internet, not a schooled professor:
Profile of the Sociopath
This website summarizes some of the common features of descriptions of the behavior of sociopaths.
Glibness and Superficial Charm
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.
Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.
Incapacity for Love
Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.
Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.
Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.
Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.
Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.
Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity
Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.
Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.
Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.
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Other Related Qualities:
Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world
(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)
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NOTE: In the 1830's this disorder was called "moral insanity." By 1900 it was changed to "psychopathic personality." More recently it has been termed "antisocial personality disorder" in the DSM-III and DSM-IV. Some critics have complained that, in the attempt to rely only on 'objective' criteria, the DSM has broadened the concept to include too many individuals. The APD category includes people who commit illegal, immoral or self-serving acts for a variety of reasons and are not necessarily psychopaths.
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DSM-IV Definition
Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.
Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)
1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest.
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases.
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive.
D. Repeated assaults on others.
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety.
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations.
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.
2. At least eighteen years in age.
3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.
4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.
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Antisocial Personality Disorder Overview (Written by Derek Wood, RN, BSN, PhD Candidate)
Antisocial Personality Disorder results in what is commonly known as a Sociopath. The criteria for this disorder require an ongoing disregard for the rights of others, since the age of 15 years. Some examples of this disregard are reckless disregard for the safety of themselves or others, failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, deceitfulness such as repeated lying or deceit for personal profit or pleasure, and lack of remorse for actions that hurt other people in any way. Additionally, they must have evidenced a Conduct Disorder before the age of 15 years, and must be at least 18 years old to receive this diagnosis.
People with this disorder appear to be charming at times, and make relationships, but to them, these are relationships in name only. They are ended whenever necessary or when it suits them, and the relationships are without depth or meaning, including marriages. They seem to have an innate ability to find the weakness in people, and are ready to use these weaknesses to their own ends through deceit, manipulation, or intimidation, and gain pleasure from doing so.
They appear to be incapable of any true emotions, from love to shame to guilt. They are quick to anger, but just as quick to let it go, without holding grudges. No matter what emotion they state they have, it has no bearing on their future actions or attitudes.
They rarely are able to have jobs that last for any length of time, as they become easily bored, instead needing constant change. They live for the moment, forgetting the past, and not planning the future, not thinking ahead what consequences their actions will have. They want immediate rewards and gratification. There currently is no form of psychotherapy that works with those with antisocial personality disorder, as those with this disorder have no desire to change themselves, which is a prerequisite. No medication is available either. The only treatment is the prevention of the disorder in the early stages, when a child first begins to show the symptoms of conduct disorder.
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THE PSYCHOPATH NEXT DOOR (Source: http://chericola57.tripod.com/infinite.html)
Psychopath. We hear the word and images of Bernardo, Manson and Dahmer pop into our heads; no doubt Ted Bundy too. But they're the bottom of the barrel -- most of the two million psychopaths in North America aren't murderers. They're our friends, lovers and co-workers. They're outgoing and persuasive, dazzling you with charm and flattery. Often you aren't even aware they've taken you for a ride -- until it's too late.
Psychopaths exhibit a Jekyll and Hyde personality. "They play a part so they can get what they want," says Dr. Sheila Willson, a Toronto psychologist who has helped victims of psychopaths. The guy who showers a woman with excessive attention is much more capable of getting her to lend him money, and to put up with him when he strays. The new employee who gains her co-workers' trust has more access to their chequebooks. And so on. Psychopaths have no conscience and their only goal is self-gratification. Many of us have been their victims -- at work, through friendships or relationships -- and not one of us can say, "a psychopath could never fool me."
Think you can spot one? Think again. In general, psychopaths aren't the product of broken homes or the casualties of a materialistic society. Rather they come from all walks of life and there is little evidence that their upbringing affects them. Elements of a psychopath's personality first become evident at a very early age, due to biological or genetic factors. Explains Michael Seto, a psychologist at the Centre for Addiction and Mental health in Toronto, by the time that a person hits their late teens, the disorder is almost certainly permanent. Although many clinicians use the terms psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, writes psychopath expert Robert Hare on his book 'Without Conscience', a sociopath's criminal behavior is shaped by social forces and is the result of a dysfunctional environment.
Psychopaths have only a shallow range of emotions and lack guilt, says Hare. They often see themselves as victims, and lack remorse or the ability to empathize with others. "Psychopaths play on the fact that most of us are trusting and forgiving people," adds Seto. The warning signs are always there; it's just difficult to see them because once we trust someone, the friendship becomes a blinder.
Even lovers get taken for a ride by psychopaths. For a psychopath, a romantic relationship is just another opportunity to find a trusting partner who will buy into the lies. It's primarily why a psychopath rarely stays in a relationship for the long term, and often is involved with three or four partners at once, says Willson. To a psychopath, everything about a relationship is a game. Willson refers to the movie 'Sliding Doors' to illustrate her point. In the film, the main character comes home early after just having been fired from her job. Only moments ago, her boyfriend has let another woman out the front door. But in a matter of minutes he is the attentive and concerned boyfriend, taking her out to dinner and devoting the entire night to comforting her. All the while he's planning to leave the next day on a trip with the other woman.
The boyfriend displays typical psychopathic characteristics because he falsely displays deep emotion toward the relationship, says Willson. In reality, he's less concerned with his girlfriend's depression than with making sure she's clueless about the other woman's existence. In the romance department, psychopaths have an ability to gain your affection quickly, disarming you with words, intriguing you with grandiose plans. If they cheat you'll forgive them, and one day when they've gone too far, they'll leave you with a broken heart (and an empty wallet). By then they'll have a new player for their game.
The problem with their game is that we don't often play by their rules. Where we might occasionally tell a white lie, a psychopath's lying is compulsive. Most of us experience some degree of guilt about lying, preventing us from exhibiting such behavior on a regular basis. "Psychopaths don't discriminate who it is they lie to or cheat," says Seto. "There's no distinction between friend, family and sucker."
No one wants to be the sucker, so how do we prevent ourselves from becoming close friends or getting into a relationship with a psychopath? It's really almost impossible, say Seto and Willson. Unfortunately, laments Seto, one way is to become more suspicious and less trusting of others. Our tendency is to forgive when we catch a loved one in a lie. "Psychopaths play on this fact," he says. "However, I'm certainly not advocating a world where if someone lies once or twice, you never speak to them again." What you can do is look at how often someone lies and how they react when caught. Psychopaths will lie over and over again, and where other people would sincerely apologize, a psychopath may apologize but won't stop.
Psychopaths also tend to switch jobs as frequently as they switch partners, mainly because they don't have the qualities to maintain a job for the long haul. Their performance is generally erratic, with chronic absences, misuse of company resources and failed commitments. Often they aren't even qualified for the job and use fake credentials to get it. Seto talks of a patient who would get marketing jobs based on his image; he was a presentable and charming man who layered his conversations with educational and occupational references. But it became evident that the man hadn't a clue what he was talking about, and was unable to hold down a job.
How do you make sure you don't get fooled when you're hiring someone to baby-sit your child or for any other job? Hire based on reputation and not image, says Willson. Check references thoroughly. Psychopaths tend to give vague and inconsistent replies. Of course the best way to solve this problem would be to cure psychopaths of their 'illness.' But there's no recipe for treating them, say psychiatrists. Today's traditional methods of psychotherapy (psychoanalysis, group and one-on-one therapy) and drug treatments have failed. Therapy is more likely to work when an individual admits there's a problem and wants to change. The common problem with psychopaths, says Sets, "Is they don't see a problem with their behavior."
Psychopaths don't seek therapy willingly, says Seto. Rather, they're pushed into it by a desperate relative or by a court order. To a psychopath, a therapist is just one more person who must be conned, and the psychopath plays the part right until the therapist is convinced of his or her 'rehabilitation.'
Even though we can't treat psychopaths effectively with therapy, it doesn't mean we can't protect ourselves, writes Hare. Willson agrees, citing the most important factor in keeping psychopaths at bay is to know your vulnerabilities. We need to "realize our own potential and maximize our strengths" so that our insecurities don't overcome us. Because, she says, a psychopath is a chameleon who becomes "an image of what you haven't done for yourself." Over time, she says, "their appearance of perfection will begin to crack," but by that time you will have been emotionally and perhaps financially scathed. There comes a time when you realize there's no point in searching for answers; the only thing is to move on.
Taken in part from MW -- By Caroline Konrad -- September 1999 -
I even misspelled the word!!! Ha!!!
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