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Entertainment Weekly Suggests Five Ways To Fix NBC's HEROES!!
I am – Hercules!!
Entertaiment Weekly’s Oct. 31 cover story discusses how to fix NBC's “Heroes,” which has plummeted from 16 million viewers less than two years ago to 8.2 million viewers for its Oct. 6 episode.
The five suggestions offered by the magazine’s Jeff Jensen:
1) Retire some capes.
2) Make the heroes smarter.
3) Get back to the heroes’ roots.
4) Get a new bag of tricks.
5) Find a big vision – and set an end date.
A sidebar on other troubled shows indicates that “Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles,” which just received a full second-season order from Fox, has itself fallen 40.7% from last season.
Find EW’s suggestions here.
9 p.m. Monday. NBC.
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That'd fix it.
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but you'd need smart writers in order to do that. Or at least writers who know what 'smart' is anyway. Any writing staff that doesn't know how to utilize Kristen Bell clearly doesn't qualify. Also, make them heroic. That would be great.
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The trailer for Push and let him steal those ideas. That is how Heroes should have been done.
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Well, I think that a) the show changed a lot of structures (forcefully) on the first 2 hours b) some characters were dumbed down c) some characters were brought back just to be killed without any "good reason"
Still, this season proved to be more entertaining than season 2. IT has dumb things, but it is getting entertaining. Im having fun again with Heroes. -
It's harder to write & execute them well. I have doubts the current show-makers have it in them. Does Jeff Jensen?
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Hiro was dumbed down. In the first season he was naive, second season he was matured. But, they wanted to create the Naruto effect on Hiro... being naive, and a bit stupid, but at the end to grow serious, succesfull, just to fall again into being an idiot... lol... but Heroes writers failed to do that...they just made everything about Hiro... dumb
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...Heroes really needs its focus back.
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At least that show has a style and sticks to it.
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In an article titled "'Heroes' Creator Apologizes to Fans", this is what he told EW after the Season 2 disaster: ''The message is that we've heard the complaints — and we're doing something about it.''
Whatever, TK: your show is an even bigger mess than it was in season 2. You're a one hit, one season wonder. -
He did do something about it. Whether it's a thing of good or evil, that's for history (or atleast wikipedia) to decide.
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Who am I? I'm an avid LOST fan who just recently started watching HEROES. Through the good graces of Apple TV, Netflix and Hulu I've progressed from season one ep 1 to the most recent episode in about 3 weeks. As a result of my LOST fandom I've been aware of the gripes about the season one climax, the seasons two dissatisfaction and am now just starting to read about reaction to season 3. (I had avoided all of it so as to not spoil myself). As such, I must say that I a bit baffled by all the compalining that I'm seeing. I started out likeing the writing and hating the direction on the show. I became intrigued enough early in season one to get hooked. I found the conclusion to season one satisfying. I didn't really like the set up in season two, that drunk jerk from Japan was annoying, but after a few episodes, I found myself once again hooked in. I though season two was great, aside from being too short. Obviously the writers strike messed wiht the producers' plans for that. Season three has been fairly great in my opinion. So far my biggest complaint is the ridiculous setup for Hiro and Ando's adventure (boredom), but other than that, I'm loving it. Does it have problems? Sure. Is it fun and intriguing? Hell yes. I really can;t wait to see where this goes. The show is going along way to distract me from LOST withdrawal. I'm jsut sorry that I now have to join the ranks of those who have to wait a week between episodes. I wonder if that has somehting to do with people's enjoyment of the show. I noticed that when I made the transition to weekly viewer on LOST (after catching up on DVD), my enjoyment of the show went down a bit. There is something about the broadcast viewing experience that makes these shows inherently less enjoyable. I found that I started enjoying LOST a lot more after I started paying to watch them commercial free on Apple TV. I hope Heroes keeps going, because I'm, eating it up. I don't really disagree with much of what was written in the EW piece here, but I just hope the producers don't second guess their visions because of all this sort of advice.
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It's too late now but there should have been penalties for them using their powers (like on Sanctuary where teleportation kills brain cells). Also the idea that any one of them can "collect all the powers" set them up for failure from the start because it's fairly stupid when Peter keeps forgetting all he can do (like be invisible to hide).
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There are just too many characters on the show to follow...too many heroes, to many villains, too many side characters and guest shots especially!!! This is what I would do to fix the show, if I was on the payroll as a writer...and if I cared. I'd make two clear sides, the good guys, and the bad guys...and have them square off, and no new added cast members, no more memory loss, or changes of powers for the characters...just clear and straight story telling!!! Stop with the twists and the byzantine story arcs for once, enough already!!! If you go to the bathroom during a commercial and miss a minute or two of the show you can be instantly lost in terms of who is doing what on the show and what side they are on??? They need to just hold a status quo, so you know who's, who...and why, for once.The show needs to give us linear story telling much like the X-Men movies, and or, Buffy. Playing with the story telling formats of Lost and the New Battlestar Galactica has been the thrust of the show, but it does not work for Heroes in terms of presenting twist after twist, and all the non linear story telling, rather it is now getting overly, and unnecessarily complicated, and confusing for its own good. Enough of the puzzles and Chinese Box mysteries already!!! I'll give you the first season, which was a rip off of The Watchmen, and such a bysantine labyrinthine format is fine for a one time story arc, and as a series set-up, but not, season after season of the same thing, non stop???!!! Now, it is just getting annoying!!!Just give me the analogy of the X-Men squaring off with the Magneto and the evil mutants in a set cast...period, and have the heroes and villains, and their various relationships largely, and tightly, play out amongst each other, absent those side characters that populate the Heroes universe and seem to add nothing to the proceedings other than to get in the way and slow the progress of the story and take up extra screen time!!!Lastly, the show needs to re-format itself to feature stand alone episodes, with book end story arcs that serve to give each season a theme, ala Chuck, as opposed to the overly thick sequential chapter by chapter format that Heroes is now following!!!
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that it never was good in the first place. The reason I started watching was because I saw promise. Granted it might as well been lifting ideas from Marvel Comics, I still thought it could end up being something good. By the end of Season 1, I was pretty much done with the show. By Season 2 it was obvious that the writers and creators had no idea what to do with the show. If anything, it should be used to teach how not write a television show. In the end they got caught up in the hype themselves and never looked back. The first season wasn't any different than 2 or 3. They just had the shiny new car smell that hid the load of shit under the hood.
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They should have set the rules early. Followed them to a T and allowed real human drama to stem from their powers not just manufactured intrigue like the show does now..
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...instead of constantly shooting yourselves in the feet!!! You'll remember, I pointed this out, my observations above, about all the series flaws and how to remedy them, during season two...and yet, all you did is continue to traffic jam the show with too many characters as if your eyes are blind, and ears deaf???!!!
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Kinda works in all the comic book movies. They can make it dark. They could add big name actors. They could add hot fresh unknown actors. They could give them leather uniforms. It would be totally sweet. Oh yeah, how about just hire new writers? I really loved Suresh being surprised by ice girl an episode after she showed her power works by touch ("HEY! Don't freeze my expensive equipment blonde bitch!"). Or Peter.. having met shapeshifters and ready for a felt... didn't bother to read "dead" dad's thoughts before hugging him. I've never felt confused by "who is that?" with the characters. Come on, it's comic superheros. There's what, A BILLION of them and little kids can follow those.
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The end.
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I like complicated stories. I like lots of characters. I like non-linear storytelling. I like twists and turns, I like long story arcs that slowly develop a mythos. I like time travel stories. I like the fact that there are similar structures to the seasons. It's as if destiny keeps self correcting the Heroes universe for this big calamity, jsut reshuffling the deck each time the Heroes thwart it, It makes me wonder about what the bigger story is about. I don't think you could tell that sort fo bigger-story if you just get self-contained episodes.
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...Like Goldblum's The Fly and X-Men's "Days of Future Past." >:(Everytime I see an episode, it's like I'm seeing a repeat of something done far better decades ago.This show is THATCLOSE to being as ramshackle as Smallville became by its 4th season. Quit making things up as you go along, have a DEFINITE plan of where you want this show to go and how it will end... and DO IT.Not that they'd actually think about doing this, though...
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2 tips to win a soccer game: 1. Get ball into the net 2. Don't let the other team get the ball into your net. I just told you how to fix your game, go fuck up Manchaster United.
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just looks terrible. Almost as bad as THE INCREDIBLE HULK, IRON MAN, FANTASTIC FOUR and the other super hero movies.
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This is the Heroes Hate site. I don't think Herc ever liked the show, so he has a vendetta against it. I personally love the show.
But to answer the Nay-Sayers...
1) Retire a few capes.Several heroes have already retired or die...like Niki, D.L., Issac, Michah, Myas brother, eden, nuclear boy and countless of other one shot and minor characters. (Bob, Linderman, Simone,)
2) Make the Heroes smarter: Some of the Heroes have improved. (Matt) Others got overconfident.(Hiro). And Peter always acts out of emotion-so he doesn't think. It's not pretty or logical, but it human. Although some could stand to be a bit more logical.
3)Go back to the shows roots: That was second season, and you guys hated it. They had the slow start-the discovery of powers, the plot to save the world. And yet every fan boy cried "foul"
This season we are seeing the gathering of villains and heroes to start a gang war. They aren't wasting their time doing origin stories. And you are still not happy.
4) Get a new bag of tricks.- Okay, what the hell does that even mean? You want to go back but you want a new bag of tricks? They are introducing a whole bunch of cool badguys and potential gang warfare and you are looking for new tricks? Egads!
5) Find a big vision – and set an end date Oh, just like Lost...just like Battlestar Galactica? Deep Space 9? Babylon 5? You want an ending story? You want an epic? What if they want to just go on as long as they can? Does every single one of these needs an ending gambit? Christ almighty!
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from deleting it from the DVR and jumping on the fringe bandwagon.
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And we all know THAT'S not gonna happen.
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Oct 27, 2008 2:49:32 AM CDT
HEROES: What's right, what's wrong & why i keep watching
by iammrmonkey!
*The following contains spoilers if you haven't seen up to last Monday's episode.*What Right:(1) Last season I was screaming at my television screen for a good villain. They set up Linderman as this big bad guy, hired Malcolm McDowell and then killed him off. Adam was pretty useless too.This season, they have introduced two pretty excellent villains. Firstly, the guy who can control what people do is AWESOME. I loved the russian roulette sequence! Secondly, Peter's dad is looking suitably badass! This i like.(2) Peter was far too overpowered. At least Sylar had to work for his powers; Peter only had to be in the same room as them and consequently went from a nurse to a God in one season.I thought the ending of the most recent episode was excellent. "You don't have your powers anymore Peter..... because I have them now."(3) The plots of the first two seasons were far too obvious. The first season was a little better as you weren't too sure where the explosion originated from until you met the exploding man and, even then, there was also the possibility that it was actually either Sylar or Peter who caused the catastrophe. In the second season, it became obvious very quickly that Adam was going to be the bad guy.This season is far better because, although we know the disaster is going to be everyone getting super-powers, it's not yet obvious how everything else falls into place. Does Mr P deliberately release the company's formula or does Doh-hinder perfect his own formula? There seems to be a little more going on this time around.What's Wrong:(1) There's still too much over-emphasis on see the future - prevent the future. This was fine as a one-off in the first season but to use it in every season afterwards too?(2) Too many characters aren't really required. Do we really need Freeze Girl? No, she's just as boring as her sister. Do we need Claire? She was fine in the first season where she had a point ("Save The Cheerleader...Save The World!") but now it seems they're just dragging her story out for the sake of it (plus: her life giving blood transfusions are a really big elephant in the room). What about Nathan? Again, he had a reason to exist in the first season but they've either got to kill him off now or radically rethink his character. Pairing him with boring Freeze Woman makes my eyelids heavy.(3) Peter is dumb. Everyone knows it and everyone is saying it. Whilst I still enjoy watching him fuck things up on a weekly basis, i wish he'd start thinking instead of acting. Geez, you have the ability to read people's minds - maybe you should have used that a few times do you think?(4) Enough with the multiple twists EVERY episode! "Sylar's my brother?" "Dad's alive!" etc etc.Why I Keep Watching:I still find this show incredibly enjoyable despite all of its flaws. I almost didn't come back for this season but it seems they're addressing a lot of problems which fans previously brought up. I'm hoping the longer run this season will benefit the show and hopefully they'll finally give us some answers which are worth something - especially that frickin' symbol that's being showing up for the last three years. And what's up with the eclipse? It's in the logo for your show and so I'd like an explanation for that too. Out of everything on television at the moment, I'll keep tuning into Heroes simply because it continues to entertain me. Forty-five minutes shoots by with Heroes whereas Fringe kinda drags (in fact, I've already dropped Fringe from tv radar). Roll on Heroes tonight! I look forward to seeing what Pete's badass pop does next!
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As if reading minds, flying, walking through walls, and spontaneous time travel were plausable. BTW I think this season is alright (I like alt reality stuff) and people should chill at least until this plot with Robert Forrester plays out. As for the Terminator...there was no way the show was going to maintain the monster ratings it had during the writers strike. There was nothing else on to watch. The show is improving and it deserves a shot. I'd certainly take these two imperfect and convoluted (at least to casual viewers) shows, over that overhyped show Fringe. I gave up on that show after episode 3 because the formula remained the same. Some mysterious bio-terrorist thing happens, some boring FBI dialogue, the wacky doctor does some wacky experiment, Pacey bitches that it'll never work, the experiment works, the Fringe team saves the day, cue more boring FBI dialogue, and then some small cheap reveal that perhaps there are larger things at play but is never clearly explained, rinse, wash, repeat.
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Fire Kring, save the show. Or not it's probably to late anyways.
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I don't know if that's fair... it's not like EW just said "Don't suck." Some of EW's suggestions are pretty specific; there aren't really a whole lot of ways to interpret "get rid of some characters" and "set an end date." That said, I don't think "Heroes" has to have an end date. In fact I kind of like that quote of Kring's in the article about focusing on new core of characters each season. I don't really know if that would work either in terms of ratings, but I think it sounds like it could make for a cool premise if executed well. I mean not everything has to be a limited series. Or maybe things are different in this New Media world, I don't really know.
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its not heroes fault this time...
it seems like they've learned from their mistake, and this season has been stellar so far. the biggest problems are..
too many new fans dont get it.too many older fan arent watching anymore.i guess its their own fault, but i was the first and foremost person to bitch about this show and all the things they did wrong. while its still not perfect, it think its improved by leaps and bounds... So i say to the nerds out there, GIVE IT ANOTHER CHANCE! DOWNLOAD THE EPISODES YOU MISSED!that is all! I did my part. -
You get the feeling they are just making this shit up as they go along...
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That's why it sucks now. They lost one of the best writers in television.
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There's nowhere near enough humour in this show. Hiro might be in there for comic relief but the other characters need to lighten up and have a laugh/ crack a smile once in a while... like Peter Parker wise cracks or the banter between Ben and Johnny in FF.
Why not have a kid who's well into his comics and then discovers he has the same powers. Let him dress up like a 'superhero' and act like they would in the comics instead of being so downbeat and 'Unbreakable'. Surely there's people in the world that if they found out they could stick to wallsthey would go out and dress up like Spidey and have some FUN!!! -
Oct 27, 2008 3:31:45 AM CDT
Oh come on, over the last few weeks I read dozens of Blogs...
by derlanghaarige
...and websites with "x ways to fix Heroes", but when EW says it, it's suddenly news?
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Sometimes even I am amazed at the slack-jawed sheepishness that goes on here. Me too me too I hate it too. Get a fucking grip assholes. You wouldn't know a good show unless someone told you it was good, and you'd hate it as soon as someone said it was time to hate. Put an eggplant in your ass and go fuck yourselves. Done.
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The only thing Kring has ever done wrong is try and write S3 to appease people like you. You hated S2, so he gave you a revamped S3... and you hate that. Personally, I'm all for Kring writing the story he wants to tell and just ignoring everyone who jumps from 'it's too slow' in S2 to 'it's too fast' in S3.
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Nope - again, you guys hated Hiro's maturing in S2 to they paired him back with Ando. Every single thing in S2 was leading somewhere, but the adverse reactions led them to scrap most of it. Which sucks.
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and, by extension the heroes themselves. we don't need to go back to 'heroes' roots, though, i'm not even sure what those are.
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One of the writers has linked to the article online, so they know of it.
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...too many characters, the lack of focused linear stories, and the overly serialized nature of the show. Again, they need stand alone episodes that are less plot driven and more "the baddie of the week" style format with implications of story elements leading to a much bigger more epic story arc at the climax of each season.
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This season anyway.
The only one who can save heroes from certain doom is Kristen Bell. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Just kill of Claire and replace her by the muuuuuuuuuuuch more interesting Elle. -
For God sake, are you clueless? Kristen. Does. Not. Want. To. Be. A. Fucking. Regular.
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Damn, someone decided to play the role of keyboard commando this morning. Go easy on Volllllume 3. Just because we're not all weirdos who read writer's blogs (or wherever it is that you saw one of them "linked to it") doesn't mean we're clueless; in fact it might be worth listening to the opinions of people who DON'T make it their responsibility to know everything about the show, since, you know, that's what most of the audience is. But anyways...
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wish NBC luck saving heroes. the slide has been slow and deliberate over 2 seasons now.
will take longer than a week to fix it. -
I'm angry because I've posted that in every Heroes TB for months, and yet this guy (I presume) consistently demands more Bell. As if that can make the show magically better if it were possible.
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It's weird to actually read up on why things don't happen? Not really, considering we're on a site which deals with reading up on things happening that the mainstream doesn't know about. If you post here, I assume you'd know about this stuff.
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6) Don't let Jeph Loeb anywhere the fuck near your scripts.
7) If you're going to crib stories and plot from popular comics, at least have the balls to follow through with it all the way.
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Can someone explain the geek hatred for him? I'm not being sarcastic, I literally don't know why he's so loathed.
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uh, what? I have no idea what your response to my post was addressing.
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Ah, sorry. I used the wrong name to reply to. Sorry for confusing you.
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Has Peter forgotten about that poor Irish girl he left in the future in series two?
Got over that quick enough. -
That's a lingering plothole, just like Peter forgetting Simone existed completely.
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Not sure if it's in the online version but the magazine has a spoiler photo without warning or label. Yup, here it is online, page 6: http://xs432.xs.to/xs432/08441/spoil216.jpg Can you see who's half-dead in the far background? Print version is easy to tell.
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how you can even fuck up an idea like this. I mean, these writers really had to work at it ! Obviously, the keys to improving the series are (1) eliminate all time travel, (2) kill Peter - he's too stupid to live, and (3) have Kristen Bell meet Claire's birth mom and begin a prolonged, intense lesbian affair.
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Oct 27, 2008 7:03:50 AM CDT
Some hopefully constructive criticism from a Heroes fan...
by kevin holsinger
1. Make things permanent. Adam Monroe is put in a coffin at the end of Season 2. 4 episodes later he's out. 2 episodes later, he's dead. Parkman's father was made insane somewhere near the end of Season 2. Now he's back again, with no explanation of how that's possible. Add this to the deus ex machina of healing blood, Mrs. Bennet's vanishing brain damage, and things of that nature, and it shows an unwillingness on this show to make permanent decisions. Any day now, I'm expecting Isaac Mendez to show up alive.2. This might be corrected this season, but make sure Ali Larter's character actually has something to do with the main plot. Season 1, which I love, might as well have been called, "Heroes...and the Niki Sanders show", because her plot had next to nothing to do with the bomb or Sylar. Season 2, she had next to nothing to do with the plague. Hopefully, things will be better this season, but I fear the pattern may continue.3. Whenever you put Protagonist X in trouble, make sure you come up with the most intelligent response to that trouble. Mohinder shouldn't have touched Tracy Strauss' hand, and Peter shouldn't have hugged his father. I don't care if Protagonist X makes an intelligent decision, and STILL loses. But at least he tried to think.Those are my main gripes with what is otherwise a quite enjoyable season (in my opinion).
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Point #1 was my most important point, but there were two others.
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See, I don't get the Adam thing. His death is a sign of making things concrete - he's dead, and ain't coming back in the present.
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I guess I was just so pissed that they actually brought him back so soon, and for the purpose of having a quickie death, that I overlooked that.Point goes to you.
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Cheers. Maury wise, fuck knows. I can fan-wank that Arthur contacted him, but for Maury to have tricked Nathan he had to have been using Telepathy from his Level 5 Cell... which means he's out of the Matt induced coma... which means that Level 5 wasn't monitoring his ability. Fuck knows on that score.
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if they could just give me 5 reasons why I should give a fuck what EW has to say about anything. After reading the Trek piece, one thing they should do is keep Quinto's speaking to a minimum. What a jackass.
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Philadelphia's 25-year major championship drought, and Heroes' ratings slide. I'm counting the minutes to tonight's episode and for what's to come. Not next week, though, as Heroes will be pre-empted for an SNL pre-election special.
Bring tonight the frak on! -
SNL pre-empting Heroes? Urgh. I'm starting to hate that turgid as fuck glorified sketch show.
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I am enjoying it this season... sure, I wish they get rid of the end of the world shit... but it's not that bad at all compared to season 2... plus, season 1 was too over hyped anyway!
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Oct 27, 2008 7:49:14 AM CDT
The geek "hatred" for Jeph Loeb is that his stories rarely make
by spyguy
I loved BATMAN: THE LONG HALLOWEEN, BATMAN: DARK VICTORY, SUPERMAN FOR ALL SEASONS and DAREDEVIL: YELLOW (All with artist Tim Sale), but there are other things he's worked on, such as SUPERMAN/BATMAN, that have been completely disjointed messes. Loeb's nowhere near as bad of a writer as Judd Winick, but it's frustrating when he tanks a script because we know he's actually capable of greatness.
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Damn you, Subject Cutoff! DAMN YOU!!!
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Winnick is considered a bad writer? Really? I loved his Green Arrow stuff.
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Which will retreat to its usual numbers once the election is over. They just hit it lucky, especially with Tina Fey, who's my pick for Entertainment Weekly's Entertainer of the Year. She's earned it in spades, IMO.
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Oh, I get that it's a hot property. I'm just English and annoyed that a jingoistic show with a Political bias is pre-empting one of the cool parts about my Tuesday morning routine.
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Lets see no heroes talkback yet every Monday a heroes story MMMMM any I'm not a Heroes Hater I LOVE the SHOW and also LOVE Lost its a FUN SHOW.
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The reason we get a Heroes story instead of a Heroes ep review is because Herc has given up on the show, but this is a heavily traffiked talkback and he can try and shill some of his DVD links.
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Just fire his ass already and bring someone else. It has become common practice recently for the showrunners to be replaced, so it wouldn't be that unusual.
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This I don't get. All they can do is not use the shared blood, they can't get rid of the concept because it's ingrained in the material. But taking away Peter's abilities shows that they DO recognise that he was getting too powerful, so they are addressing complaints.
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What's the big surprise? No way was Heroes going to keep the 16 million viewers. Good sci-fi shows never have those ratings. Star Trek in it's prime didn't - why would we expect Heroes?? Keep on rocking Heroes - swwwwweeeet show!!
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If we've established that there are Prec-Cogs and Time Travellers... then don't use those abilities... surely that will be used as a criticism by someone else?
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Pretty much. Same with Lost, which has consistently lost viewers every season. Neither of them is a mainstream show, they're cult shows that lucked out with initial booms and have fallen ever since.
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Oct 27, 2008 8:32:19 AM CDT
They give those reasons in a USAToday-style pie chart!
by jackrabbitslim
Have no opinion on the content - don't watch Lost - but EW really is a shitty mag. EW is to the trade mags as USA Today is to LA Times - for dum peepul.
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heh. I read the article and rolled my eyes. They have some good points, but a lot of it is a fine example of why certain people shouldn't write for TV.
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Oct 27, 2008 8:35:39 AM CDT
More proof Kristen Bell TV time will be at a further premium..
by pennsy
She's going to do a movie called Couples' Retreat - http://tinyurl.com/5heb8m. She'll co-star with Jason Bateman, Vince Vaughn, Jon Favreau (who will write the screenplay), Kristin Davis, and Malin Akerman (Silk Spectre II from Watchmen).
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Characters can and should be able to change who they are. It's what makes them interesting. But it is one thing to change a charater over time through trials that test his limits look at Sawyer or Charlie on Lost for excellent examples of that. It's a completely different thing to change your character the way Heroes does it, completely willy-nilly without any through put in as to WHY these characters are changing.
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Mate, chances are they'll write her off at the end of 3x13 and she'll reappear at a later point. Stop stressing over this.
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I'm with you on Sawyer, but Charlie? How did veering from a likeable and sarcastic rogue to an unlikeable piece of shit in S2 show a logical character path? Charlie's actions in 2x13 make no sense under any context, and it's only in S3 that they go back to what made the character work... essentially ignoring S2 to do so.
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'It's going to be an absolute blast,'' he told EW. ''There's nothing in it that resembles anything from 'Villains.' It's brand-new storytelling, and there's a wide-open road in front of us.''
That's basically what he said about volume 3, when season 2 proved to be a failure. The guy's a hack. -
Um, no. He said Volume III was going back to what Volume I was. And it has. At no point did he say it was going to be a brand new experience.
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Just check out his current run on TITANS if you need proof. Or his run on OUTSIDERS, where every character (even Katana) had the exact same personality and dialogue traits.
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All the problems with the show (including the ones EW mentions) point back to the incompetence of Kring and the writing staff. Applying all the 'tips' won't change the fact that it's awful writing and that Kring doesn't know how to handle the material.
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If you really want change. Don't watch; don't discuss; don't read; don't comment. Do nothing. Wait for it to explode. And if it doesn't, who cares... you're not watching it anyway.
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Oct 27, 2008 9:03:45 AM CDT
Sounds like a real comic book
by guy who got a headache and accidentally
Never watched this show but hearing how it can't stick with any decisions it makes permanently sounds like a comic book. Because comic book readers are gigantic pussies who can't handle their favorite characters and only friends ever changing.
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Kirsten Bell naked. And Hayden. And Ali Larter. And that Maya chick. Actually, all of the female cast. Apart from Mrs Petrelli.
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Oct 27, 2008 9:10:17 AM CDT
Guy Who Got A Headache And Accidentally Saves The World
by mr. zeddemore
Yeah, that's what Quesada thinks. But some of us actually like adult Peter Parker, and didn't want him to revert back to his old persona.
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Think of it this way; I've made peace with it. If the Heroes ratings keep cratering like Chuck and SCC, then it will look like she's getting off a sinking ship just in the nick of time. If the ratings rebound, then she hopefully will be given credit as one of the reasons for the resurgence.
Her ultimate destination is movies. She proved that with her performance in Forgetting Sarah Marshall. She says herself that she's riding "a wave in my career that I'm not sure I'll ever get again". Either way, Kristen comes out smelling like the rose that she is. I'm at the 'acceptance' stage of things. And it couldn't happen to a nicer, classier act, the success that is going to follow. ;) -
Smarter writers writing smarter characters is the only hope for this show. But NBC will cancel it before changing up the writing staff. The should have gotten new non-union writers during the strike and fired the rest. I still can't help but think the weakness is all due to Bryan Fuller leaving. I recently rewatched S1 and I still loved it (not great TV, but certainly fun).
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Sorry. :(
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Don't apologise for calling me a Doc, I'm always ranked below those cracker Ghostbusters. It's like I'm not even there half the time... I don't think Bell's gonna bring back the audience, at all. What I do think is that her future lies beyond Heroes, but that she'll stop off every now and then for a few episodes. Like I said, they could've killed her off in 3x02 and didn't... so I don't think she's going to die at all.
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Chances are he'll back soon enough. Which is hilarious - all you chaps digging on him sure as shit aren't watching Pushing Daisies.
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If you've read his comics you will know that Jeph Loeb has a unique talent for creating crap that doesn't hold up to the slightest pressure of logic and doesn't know the meaning of consistent characterization.I didn't start watching Heroes until I picked up the season 1 dvds at Goodwill of all places. Watching it I thought it was ok but hated Sylar and Peter. So I finish it and rent the season 2 dvds and who is the star of that? Peter. Then I get caught up and season 3 starts and who is the star of it? Peter! It isn't even the character so much as the actor and his weird jaw and underbite.The number one problem is time travel. With characters who can travel through time they have to make silly reasons why the characters don't just travel back in time and prevent all this from happening. Get rid of time travel and half my complaints disappear.
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With Peter, the problem is if he has no powers, he's useless on the show. So he'll probably get them back. Daddy P probably just drained off Peter's current "collection," but Peter's core power remains. As far as a new bag of tricks, problem is they blew through all the main ones in S1 and maybe S2: time travel/alternate futures, the related seeing the future (you don't have to foreshadow future developments any more: you just have someone tell you what's going to happen = lazy writing), power duplication, and healing/regeneration. They could have spaced that over four seasons, but we basically got it all crammed into one.
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Actually, he's better without powers. The thing with Peter is that he cares about people, but the abilities corrupt that. What we'll probably see is Peter being more heroic without them (he could die at anu time, so he's risking his life on the line), and actually going back to the sweet and caring guy in S1 who ran off to save Claire knowing he was going to die.
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Easy solution to that. Have Hiro as a teleporter only. He meets Papa Petrelli, and is about to get power whacked when suddenly Papa P is interupted halfway through. Hiro is barely conscious, but manages to teleport away - turns out that's all he was left with.
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Because while it's a prime example of Loeb's craptacular writing style, it somehow made its way into the list of 'difinitive' or 'iconic' Batman stories since its release. And ever since then, it's given him carte blanche to write for every major industry series and characters which he then butchers with his horrid writing.
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first off; loved season one, especially the ending, then i found myself increasingly dissatisfied with season two, it just seemed like they didnt have the balls to go through with what they'd already set up at the end of one. With the season two finale i felt like they'd gone a long way to getting some kudos back, so it was with nervous anticipation that i awaited season three. And you know what?
LOVES IT
i abso-frakkin-lutely love it. Well done Kring, good job, keep up the good work. I'll be tuning in avidly every week -
with a list of very similar complaints. #1 of mine is stop stealing shit from other people 4400, The Fly, Buffy. They are already trying to turn Sylar into Spike.
The fact is, it took 3 season for Spike to become the anti-hero, Sylar is suddenly...in 2 episodes..becoming a good guy??
Wahuh?
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I am watching Pushing Daisies. I look forward to it more than any other show this season. And I'd rather it continue than have Fuller back on Heroes. I loved S1 Heroes, but Pushing Daisies is unique and that's more important to me.
Besides they don't really need him to make the show better. I think a bunch of random writers could do better than the current crop. The problem is that NBC is working with the lowest of the low in the writing department. They're obviously friends or relatives of somebody high up and the execs get paid no matter what, so why would they care? I suspect the networking and the nepotism in Hollywood is the reason that most of their stuff sucks and seems to get exponentially worse. Why else would these people be employed? -
I'd guess because they are the same people who wrote the core of the S1 eps?
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Fuller would be wasted on Heroes, which is ultimately Kring's baby. I'd rather have a unique, well-done show like Daisies and a mediocre superhero show rather than just a mediocre superhero show with occasional flashes of goodness. EW may be a rag, but it still makes evident what many feel about the show.
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Well, there is the NBC way and the Ron Moore way. The NBC way would be to show more skin, more violence, less talking, get at least one more season, and then begin selling this shit for syndication. The Ron Moore way, the guy in charge of the best show on TV "Battlestar Galactica", would be to write kick ass stories that give you lots of W.T.F. moments. If you are a great story teller, then you can make fewer episodes, because the viewers know that the shows are going to be great and worth watching over and over. This Kring guy is not a great writer. He is just Okay, and sometimes his shows really suck. You have a great concept, some good moments, but overall it sucks. The last BSG show I saw made me scream at the TV yelling, WTF, over and over, but it was a good thing. I don't want my "art" spoon feed to me. I don't want to know what is going to happen next. I don't want a Hollywood Happy Ending. Give Heroes one more season, then cancel it.
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so we can watch fringe and stargate...oh wait.
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"TOO MANY CHARACTERS" thats why he left X-men fuck that too many character man whats the point.
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so Heroes, whatever its creative failings, or falling ratings, isn't going anywhere. This is the network that just picked up Knight Rider for the full season, for goodness' sake.
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He's got "Data" syndrome. ie. Data from Star Trek : TNG. Hiro's story is about maturing and becoming a Hiro, however, everyone loves him being a nerd and funny, so the writers are keeping him there. Just as Data's quest was to become more human and he never was allowed to get there as the fans hated it when he got emotion chips etc.
The writers need to have some balls and make Hiro more towards the future-hiro from S1. He can still be funny, in a peter parker kind of way, but can swordfight and kick-ass. Especially with his time-travel you can have him disappear and then just turn up trained/serious... which is what the Japan story from S2 should have done to him. Hardened him... -
Parkman is an enjoyable character but is peripheral to the stories. And when you have to turn a character "evil", it's time to let him go. Then you would be left with Nathan/Peter/Sylar, Claire/HRG, Hiro/Ando as the main groups of characters... Far more manageable...
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I love the show ( don't care what rest ya say) but i wish they did get rid of the time jumping it gettin old
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...this show needs more squid.
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..."Heroes sucks now" crap last year?
I'm glad I've never bothered to watch this show; even it's fans can't seem to stand it. -
is a sense of mortal danger. Maybe someone has said this already. But, they need to find a way to get rid of Claire's blood being a cure-all. I don't wanna see this turn into X-Files. I don't know how. I'm not paid to think. I'm paid to bitch and whine. I agree with Winston, though. This development with Peter could be great. Now that he's a civilian again, maybe we can see him do something heroic. I think the best way to bring mortal danger back, though, is to kill off someone big on the show, for good. (I know they kinda did this with Adam, but he wasn't that big a character. I mean first season main character big.) Just an idea. Oh, dammit, I'm thinking now. Thankfully, not that well. Better go.
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Best Idea ever. sustaining quality is never a sure thing. Tv should subscribe to the fat elvis theory, and avoid catastrophes like Heroes and the last episode of the sopranos.
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I don't mean to sound like a fanboy, but it's not broken. Heroes was always a comic book made into a tv show. It got big on its first season because people loved the "save the cheerleader" thing for some reason, and because it was a new thing. But as with any comic book, they're starting to pull shit from everywhere, they bring anyone back to life, everyone is related to everyone else, new powers, new alternative realitites, etc. That's all comic book stuff that "mainstream" people can't deal with because its too unconventional, and they want to go back to "the good guys vs. the bad guys and save the cheerleader". I'm not even a big comic book reader, but I appreciate the unconventional nature of it.
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Oct 27, 2008 10:36:48 AM CDT
Kill Mohinder, limit time-travel and get rid of healing blood
by spyguy
If the only way to make Mohinder remotely interesting is to turn him into Monhinderfly, you know he's an unsalvageable character. Best to have him go totally batshit insane and kill him off. Quickly.
Time-travel should be limited to just one person, Hiro Nakamura. No Sylar, no Peter, just Hiro. Slap some kind of protection on Hiro that keeps Sylar and Peter from copying his abilities.
Lastly, make Claire's blood poisonous to anyone but Claire herself to get rid of the "anyone can be healed" problem. When you take away the easy cop-outs, your stories become much more interesting.
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Oct 27, 2008 10:47:44 AM CDT
I watched two episodes in first season - have not gone back
by toadkillerdog
I have no idea what the current problems are, but I suspect they are the same that irritated me in the first season: The show was written like a comic book from the early 1970's. The writers apparently have not picked up a comic book in a very long time, ans simply assume the very old and outdated cliches. Comic book readers and writers are far, far more sophisticated than the writers of this trash assume, and so is the general audience who may have never read a comic book. So it is zero surprise that when you create a series that relies on the oldest cliche of them all to explain away incongruities and poor writing by essentially saying: 'hey it's just a comic book' that your audience will bale.
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It IS restricted to one character now. Only Hiro can time-travel. And he's afraid of it, so he imposes sanctions. When he breaks the sanctions, either his heart breaks through a thwarted romance or he watches his Dad die or he gets hit with a fucking shovel.
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Pretty much. It's why X-Men didn't have Sentinels and FF II didn't have Galactus, because that's too out there for the mainstream. At least from a Studio perspective.
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Like THE MATRIX, which probably should have concluded with Neo's flight into the sky, HEROES should have ended with the characters coming together as a team, ready to fight evil. Let's face it: it's much more fun to watch characters *becoming* rather than being. That's why we all get a kick out of seeing Superman's and Batman's origins told told ad infinitum.
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I've been watching some of the new episodes on the BBC and my God, they are almost impossible to follow. Is it just me or is there no actual build up in this show ? Last night Peter went to see Sylar who was giving WAFFLES to his son, 2 minutes later some people burst in and Sylar's son is killed and Sylar goes nuts for about 10 seconds then it cuts to a nuclear explosion and a mushroom cloud over a town. What the hell is going on in ? This all happened in about 3-4 minutes. Good pacing is key, yes I agree. But isn't the death of a character's son and the resulting NUCLEAR EXPLOSION something that you would give more screen time to ? If you were to go to the toilet and come back again you would have missed everything completely. This show is like a hundred fireworks going off in your face at the same time, making so much noise and emitting so much light that you can't enjoy any of it.
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Oct 27, 2008 11:27:01 AM CDT
Mr. Sapno-Krei, I don't get a kick out of origin stories...
by leafar the lost
"That's why we all get a kick out of seeing Superman's and Batman's origins told told ad infinitum." Don't include me in that statement. I do not enjoy having origin stories told over and over, like Wolverine. Once every generation a hero should have their origin redone in order to fit in with the times. Otherwise, don't fuck with it.
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Okay, I believe it was the pilot, but Mama Petrelli had Sylar absorb that chick who can see object's past's abilities by touching them. Why then did they skip him touching something to show that Mama Petrelli was really his mother? It made that whole scene pointless really. And it was filmed according to people on the internet.. so why was it not shown?
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would you really prefer more Gossip Girl clones. Even with its flaws, Heroes is more watchable than 90 percent of what's on network TV right now. And most cable shows ain't that much better. I can think of maybe 8 shows tops, between network and cable, that I actually enjoy; the rest are diverting (like the CSI shows, Numbers, etc) but they don't bring out the buried fanboy at all.
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Oct 27, 2008 11:41:27 AM CDT
The only thing wrong with the show are the massive plot holes
by dapper swindler
Granted, they are unacceptable. But every problem I think stems from the plot holes. Characters acting like idiots, not using their powers intelligently. But the characters, actors, direction - I think all that is fine.
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I was a self-confirmed Heroes diaspora. That is until I sat down and watched all 6 eps of season 3. They are really good, and a huge improvement over season 2. Anyway, just thought I would say that before another good show goes down the tank, and you idiots start bitching about that. Jesus Christ.
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Oct 27, 2008 11:44:26 AM CDT
I don't think magical cure everyone blood is necessarilly bad
by jccalhoun
A good comic book would not write out magical curing blood but would use that as a storyline and raise questions such as who gets cured and who doesn't, what happens to the person who makes the blood, what happens if someone finds out about the blood, and other questions. A bad comic book would just use it once and forget about it until they wanted an easy way to bring a dead person back to life.
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... is that it's impossible to keep enough weed on hand to make watching it tolerable without risking trafficking and intent to distribute charges if a policeman happens to walk by my apartment while it's on.
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And the sad part is, I am NOT joking
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1.) Cancel the show.
2.) Get Bill Clinton on the show as a guy who affects pheremones.
3.) Perform a "House of M" type event and clean up your universe's mess. -
Heroes is damned if they use it, damned if they don't. Like with other things, Kring listened to people who hated it (despite it making a lot of sense on the show, and ending shock deaths) and thus is ignoring it.
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Naw, it's not worth it.
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The last 3 eps. of Connor have been outstanding. I can't even sit through a Heroes episode anymore.
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Oct 27, 2008 12:17:04 PM CDT
1)Lesbian orgies 2)with dilos 3)and eating box 4) sex 5)sexy sex
by tallboy66
There a way to get ratings to spike approximately 9 billion percent.
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Oct 27, 2008 12:19:37 PM CDT
I wouldn't call either of them GOOD; both are ENTERTAINING
by turketron
The way cameron pretzelized the other chick terminator was pretty cool last week. John Connor sometimes seems to have the same smarts as Peter Petrelli at times though... nah, what am I saying. No one's that dumb!
I hope Heroes keeps Arthur around for a while though, great villain. -
"I'm glad I've never bothered to watch this show; even it's fans can't seem to stand it."
LOL Funny 'cause it's true :) -
My God, how much TV do you watch that you need more than 8 great and a couple mediocre shows per week?
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I hope Arthur doesn't make it past 3x13, honestly.
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Oct 27, 2008 12:31:46 PM CDT
Chuck, Private Prac., Knight Rider, SCC should thank the WGA for
by pennsy
Because if they didn't, per the Hollywood Reporter, they may not have passed muster: http://tinyurl.com/6j8fl8.
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I can't stand the oh-so-hip trend of calling superheroes "capes". If you catch yourself using that phrase, just stop reading comics and watching superhero shows. Go drink a latte or something.
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And the economy for tanking, I might add...
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I thought he had great potential.... and still does. One thing that people assume is that his powers really are what people say they are. We know they're not actually black holes, because with an aperture that large, as soon as he opened one everyone and everything in the solar system would have disappeared.
So what if he actually opened up a dimensional portal or some other thing like that. a CLEVER writer could even give the character some amazing depth out of this becuase he could conceivably retrieve his neighbor from this dimension and redeem himself.
it seems very likely to me that the writers were trying every way they could to keep the "Tiger Beat" factor alive in this... all of the 2nd string stars have no different weight in these episodes... Suresh, though evil now, isn't *doing* anything new. Nicki/Whateverthehell is the same character too, and Peter is an idiot ,and Nathan is the most worthless of all.
I still keep watching, hoping for it to get better. It's had its moments... Hiro is much better this time around.
Having whats-his-face die, was awesome. That was a great moment, though ol' Dad is the epitomy of an 80's badguy IMHO ( and not in a good way )
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The only way to save Heroes is by creating a Crisis on Infinite Earths or House of M event. It gives Kring and his staff the opportunity to re-jigger the show. Eliminate deus ex machina devices, limit time travel and eliminate healing blood. Also, when characters use their powers it should cost them; the use of powers should take a physical or mental toll on the characters. Maybe when a character uses telepathy powers, it drives that character increasingly insane or they have an incapacitating seizure.
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I probably missed out on a few others :)
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as someone noted above, this might require smarter writersI suspect it is too late, though: once the idiocy and patterns of stupid behavior are established, it is hard to break free from them in a credible way. Stargate Atlantis suffered from this same affliction: nearly every episode's plot required the characters to act in a mind-bogglingly stooooopid way, and then become geniuses to resolve it.The Heroes writers are so invested in the plots and characters they have created, stupidity and all, that it is unlikely they are even ABLE to see past this and make the corrections, even if they were willing, even if the viewers would buy it.Perhaps a new hero with the power to raise the other heroes' IQ's by a LOT of points?
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onto the end of Season 1 boxset, then pretend that's all they ever made. Best way to fix Heroes.
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So Heroes would end with a suicidal Nathan, Peter losing his memory and stuffed into a crate, Niki and Micah mourning the loss of her husband and his Father, and Maya/Alejandro deciding to go find Doctor Suresh? Bit of a cliffhanger, ey?
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No magic blood, no more "not actually dead, not permanently dead" BS. Heroes are NOT Heroes if they are not actually risking something: Someone with superpowers that makes him/her utterly indestructible is not taking any risk, therefore no bravery (or storytelling tension). The characters need to die and stay dead, be injured and forced to recover in a non-instant way. Use of one power diminishes the others, or diminishes the individual.Joss Whedon said in a radio interview years back after he had killed off a main character very unexpectedly in Buffy that if, when he did such a thing, there was not shock and outrage among the viewers, then he had not done his job as a writer to make them care about the character. And making any character, ANY character, a viable target for sudden death, puts real tension in the story--when we know they won't kill off a character, or that even if they do it probably is going to be a temporary thing, we just don't care. RDM took this a step further, and even had his cast believing Starbuck was gone--with great effect.
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Jason Aaron, Brian K. Vaughn, Bob Gale, Geoff Johns, Ed Brubaker, Garth Ennis, Warren Ellis, and Grant Morrison all run circles around Jeph Loeb without breaking a sweat. Imagine if they did a season of "Heroes" like "52" with the same caliber of talent? Oh and if you try to argue, "Comic book writers don't know film," go fuck yourself because both are visual mediums that use pictures to tell a story.
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News to me - seems like everytime he gets in a fight he gets his ass HANDED to him, despite being able to stop time, move at super speed, punch through concrete, turn invisible, etc.... -_-;; and so now, his DAD is way super overpowered. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but this must be the end of the show. NO ONE should be able to compete with this guy. Yet how much you want to bet within 4 episodes, he'll be dead and there will be a new immortal brain stealing time controlling mind manipulating supervillian who will also be promptly defeated through sheer dumb luck, probably by Hiro when he slips on a banana peel and throws his sword thru the guys head. Yes, I'm still bitching. Last weeks episode was a fair improvement, nice to see Hiro use his BRAIN for the first time all season. But killing off Adam? Why introduce him in the first place? I know S2 had a different course set out, but you couldn't think of ANYTHING interesting to do with a 400 year old sarcastic as hell alcoholic immortal with ambiguous morals? THAT'S the character you get rid of? Yet you keep scientist-turned-retarded-fly-man and his newly boobed up girlfriend? AND PLEASE, let the third Ali Larter be a deaf-mute in a coma. Please. Please. Please. And obviously my hopes and dreams of Peter actually becoming the end-all villian (which is about the only cool thing they could do with his character) have been laid to waste, since now he's not only a moron, but he's a powerless moron. Great.
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but it has turned into a joke. Seriously, just put it (and us) out of our misery.
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The reason they got rid of Adam was to send a message that even the most invincible character on the show, someone who could survive most situations, was still in the end easy pickings for a sick son of a bitch like Arthur. It's actually putting the story ahead of appeasing the fanbase, which I commend it for.
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maybe he is the end-all villain after all: the Black Hole of Intellect
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Oct 27, 2008 1:16:48 PM CDT
Character Deaths: TBers call for death of annoying characters
by chromedome
...of which there are many!Interesting to note that there are, to my scan anyway, no posts* about "they better damn well not kill off _______, or I'm done" but lots of "Please Please Please Kill _________, or I'm done" sorta posts.If THAT is not an indictment of the writers, I don't know what is.*note: Pennsey's "they better not kill Kristen Bell's character" is, though unspoken, considered a given, and the exception that proves the rule :-)
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There. How's that?
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For me to think it's okay to leave the show retarted, for people like me who don't think it's THAT bad and still think it's good enough to kill an hour on?
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but i still betcha that your list of "please kill's" is longer...... Mine is.
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then maybe she'd think she's too famous to do the show anymore and request to be killed off. Thats another thing that would fix the show. Her little shennigans are just obnoxious..and the girls isn't a good enough actress to pull of this new "badass" arch
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seriously? you think they're gonna make the main chracter on the show(fuck ensemble, hes the main chracter) a regular guy? FOREBVER? 20 bucks says his dad gives him his powers back in the next week or two.
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(IN ORDER) Mohinder, Maya, Sandra Bennet, Lyle Bennet, Micah, Niki/Jessica/Tracy/Whomever, and West.
That's it, especially now that Adam's presumably dead. Everybody else lives until the overall story narrative dictates one of them should die in a meaningful way. Spend the next six months developing the rest and don't bring in any additional characters.
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The show jumped the shark when the Season 1 finale turned out to be such a dud. It was all downhill from there.
THE SOLUTION: The writers need to stop all of the current storylines and go back and revisit the season 1 ender.
Get Hiro to a place where he realizes that the current storyline end game is unavoidable and the only way to 'Save the world' is to let Peter go nuclear and destroy NYC way back when.
Hiro travels back in time and prevents Peter from being rescued by Nathan. Peter and Sylar finally have their big blowout fight. Peter ends up nuking everything in the process and kills off all of the characters we hate: Niki, Nathan and Parkman.
The next episode then begins the chapter 'fugitives' where people with special abilities are on the run from the government.
Sure it's a big reset button. But the show kinda needs it.
/Hey Tim, I'm available to write if you want -
And 2 animated movies coming out in 2010 (Hoodwinked 2: Hood vs. Evil, Alpha and Omega). Not exactly on par with her BFF's SIX movies in the next 2 years (When in Rome, Sheepish, Astro Boy - those two are voice work as well - Serious Moonlight and Couples' Retreat).
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No, they were just pointing out just how little direction this show actually has. If Hiro hadn't dug up Adam, Petrelli's entire plan would have been completely scrapped? He obviously 'took' Adam's immortality out of NEED, not out of evil. That doesn't make him a "sick son of a bitch" in my mind. He needed an immortal, and Adam just HAPPENED to pop up because of Hiro's idiocy. That makes him yet another character who succeeds entirely out of DUMB LUCK. A more interesting way to achieve the same goal? Hiro goes to find Adam, and the grave is ALREADY DUG. Cut to Adam being dragged in front of Petrelli, scared shitless, and we have NO idea why or whether Adam actually had the information Hiro needed. The fact that they explicitly said "Oh, well, he doesn't know ANYTHING about ANYTHING." completely removed any tension or drama from his sudden death. Who cares if he lives or dies? They 'killed him off' already last season. They weren't doing anything with his character. And this just adds to the lack of anything concrete in the show. The super-immortals they've been harping on about, Sylar's line about "I don't think you CAN die.", were proven pointless. Of course this will lead to a 'tense' confrontation between Claire and Arthur, except they'll never kill off the hot cheerleader, so who cares? Like, did you really think there was ANY chance she would get sucked into that wormhole? Or that either of her 'moms' would even get slightly injured?
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;) .
I think West, along with Monica simply left the show/didn't have their contracts renewed. Micah was on for just the one episode. Molly I can do without. My 'outta there' list pretty much reflects SpyGuy's. You really want to reset things; I think Claire has run her course. Kill her off. One of the main group needs to bite it. -
Oct 27, 2008 2:10:52 PM CDT
My guess is that the writers had no plan beyond one season
by toadkillerdog
They probably had an 'Oh shit, we got picked up for 3 more seasons?' moment.
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duh.
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That's a preemptiv if I get too carried away with going back and forth in-between Heroes and game 5. :)
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You start putting your vision to film. It doesn't have to be every little detail, but it won't hurt. Look at JMS with Babylon 5 (and I think RDM with BSG). Two of the best genre shows ever.
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...but if they do, the big take-away clue for them seems to be that the list of "please kill em off the show" characters is pretty damn long.They should go off and figure out exactly why that is, character by character.some of them might be fixable....
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...quite simply, DELIVER the Hiro you promised. Early in Season 1 we saw him arrive from the future and he was cool, ferocious, exact and lethal. Two seasons on, no sign of the transformation has occurred; we still have the bumbling schoolboy. Okay, so they changed the course of history, but would Hiro only ever stay a dweeby nerd like now? No way. Bring out the hair gel, bring out the goatee. Let's have the sophisticated, fearsome, all-powerful Hiro/hero we were promised way back then. Presently there's not one intelligent hero among the cast of this show, which sorta makes me wonder if any of them are actually heroes at all. Give us what you promised us. That's what we're all still waiting for.
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Well said! Season 1 showed us that Hiro would be transformed, but Peter had to follow the path Hiro described.Peter did, but we got nuttin.
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Oct 27, 2008 2:37:21 PM CDT
When you've got a TV rag like EW offering you suggestions...
by datoman413
man, that's no good. Frankly, as much as I like the series, sometimes it just lurching from surprise reveal to commercial to NEXT TIME ON HEROES.There's other problems. Suresh turning into Seth Brundle, the almost complete ignoring of the Latin Mistress of Death, the Dark Cheerleader bit, and on. I didn't completely hate the Sylar-as-brother line, but it's still really contrived. Almost as if they're saying HEY, since we didn't reveal X we can do X with X. It looks as if they're just pulling stuff out their asses at this point.
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But if you keep reading, EW actually suggests making Sylar the main character and main hero of the show. Whatever. I actually think the inability to get rid of Sylar once and for all is a weakness of this series, and his instant rehabilitation seems borderline tasteless (sure, kill as many people as you want, we'll set you free to make good.) Just not down with that.
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There are good points, I have to admit. The Dad Petrelli storyline made me smile just because they got rid of that prat Adam. The "Puppet Master" fat guy is a nice turn. And the future episode when Sylar nukes was pretty good. So while there are problems, I'm sticking around. (I do wish Hiro would teleport to wherever the writers have his balls now and get them back).
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Oct 27, 2008 2:49:33 PM CDT
Homer is correct: Sylar should have been the first one to Die
by chromedome
and to STAY DEAD.
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Watched it, loved it. An excellent Pilot.
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My thought process would be he did know something, but he was hardly going to rush to tell Hiro and Ando about it. Chances are he was the 'Light' that Kaito mentioned, specifically that his blood had some effect that could destroy the formula once and for all. Or some such - which gives Claire a tie into the central arc.
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Whuh? That's what they were doing in S2... only you all complained that Hiro was in Japan maturing as a human being. So Tim Kring assumed you wanted Hiro and Ando to team up again, hence their (sporadically funny) interplay. I want to see mature, bad-ass Hiro... but in future when they are setting that up, you have to stick with it and not complain that Hiro stopped being funny. He is better when he isn't comic-relief.
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Glad you checked it out Zeddemore. There's a lot of standalone episodes in season 1, but most of them are pretty cool. It gets really good when they deal with the main arc of course., and the season finale will kick you in the ass.
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Are you watching S3? They are introducing what Heroes can/can't do. It's just that we have to ignore parts of S1/S2 while they do so. The show bible essentially applies to 3x01 onwards, and as a result what happened does make sense... from 3x01 onward. It doesn't retroactively explain S1/S2 (save for Niki's storyline making sense, finally), but I do believe they know where they are going with the story. Hence Peter losing his abilities.
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I also think Peter will get his powers back either this or next episode. Either that, or his dad will pick and choose which powers he gives him back. Or maybe he will get some of the powers-giving-formula and get either his original power or some new one, or some variation of his old power (he totally needs a limit on how many powers he can have at once, how long he can keep the powers he absorbs, or how many times he can use an absorbed power). Either way, I'm interested in what they will do with Peter now, which I haven't been for a very long time.
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Basically, the box set was under £15. In fact, each seasons box set is under £15. So I'm taking advantage of how cheap they are. I wouldn't say it's better than Heroes, or compare them (I enjoyed the Supernatural Pilot more, but that's because the Heroes one - while damn good - didn't feel like a coherent whole), but on the merits I saw Supernatural is a damn good show. And the 'Jerk' 'Bitch' exchange is just great writing.
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Like I said, I think Peter needs time without powers. Then, when he gets his core ability back, he should evolve the ability so that he doesn't have to take in everything. Give him Electric Manipulation, Phasing and perhaps Flight. That's all he needs.
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I disagree about an end date, I think this show could go on for a long time, if one character leaves they can always add new heroes.
I suggest that each episode should mostly focus on one character at a time, it would allow them to dig deeper into each one individually. -
Well the theme of this volume is "Villains." So I can see Noah and Peter and Mohinder kind of becoming villains. Problem is we need a few more villainous types besides Sylar becoming heroes. Right now Angela is evil, and Arthur is evil (but a different kind of evil), and Knox is evil, and Flint is evil, and Maury/Linderman is evil. The problem isn't the villains: you've got a good selection with various motives, both continuing (Arthur) and one-shot (Doyle). Problem is that there's nobody arising to oppose them. Nathan is going with God, Tracy is whining, Parkman is looking for his future wife, Claire is on a revenge kick, Daphne is conflicted-evil person, Maya is (still) useless, Usutu is seeing the future and doing jack-all about it, the Haitian when he shows is up is mildly-evil guy. Only Hiro seems mildly proactive, but then his ineptitude set the whole end-of-the-world-formula thing off (and why didn't he just stop time last week and search around for Usutu?). Everyone this season is either evil-bad, or incompetent-bad. Sandra is the most heroic character this season, which is kind of depressing.
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Heroes is unbelievably irritating these days, it's still better than most things on TV. Almost all of the programmes I watch have been disappointing this season. Especially as the writers had a HUGE writers strike induced hiatus last season to get the story straight in their heads. Do you think they credit crunch is putting pressure on writers to work faster? Is it forcing companies to lay off their support staff, meaning writers are spending more time answering their phones and getting their own coffee when they should be writing? There has to be some reason most shows have seen a downturn in quality all at once.
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I don't want to see Peter become a heroic mortal. Peter isn't a competent heroic mortal. He's trained as a nurse, and he seems to rely on his powers as a crutch. You could do an arc where he learns to be a competent anti-special fighter... but wasn't that what Usutu was trying to teach Hiro last week for Hiro's story arc? Like Hiro's "Hide and then sneak up on him without my powers" scheme made any sense any way? And besides, didn't Hiro uses his brain rather than his power to outsmart Daphne and plant the tracker on her medal to find her? So what's up with that...?
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There's two major problems with Heroes.
1) Season 2 was a waste of time. It basically ended with how season 1 ended.
2) No one seems to die. Too many resurrections and too many people with god like powers.
How can any viewer have a sense that there is danger if everyone comes back to life? This reduces the potential thrill that we did at times experience in season 1 when we wondered who was next to die. -
The only problem is that Peter has veered away from who he should be. He's meant to connect to people, to be selfless, but he's not... and taking away his powers forces him to think about who he is and how he can help. He'll get his core power back, but having him as Superman just makes the show seem trivial.
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Back to root heroes' roots?!?!? What exactly does the shows roots entail? Have an incredible build up like they did in season one, only to fail miserably with a finale that was lazy, stiff, and poorly funded... The whole point of a build up is the explosion at the end... So what am I suggesting? Scratch Heroes and instead present The SANDMAN series by Neil Gaiman. It is everything that Heroes wishes it was.
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I mean seriously...this show started great. Season 2 wasn't too bad it just didn't get a chance to go where it was supposed to thanks to the strike. But I think every character has been dumbed down. And especially Peter. Like when he was in the future and decided to stay there and try to protect the future Sylar...why bother. When he goes back in time it's going to change the events anyway so that wouldn't happen. Why is he so stupid??
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Let the fans write the show....they can't do any worse than the creators.
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...there is no sense of place. Lost = The IslandBattlestar = the FleetSmallville = well, Smallville, to a certain extentThe thing that drives me crazy about Hero's is that it is contantly jumping around all over the place. Even though some of the story lines are cool, an the characters are creatively, there doesn't seem to be any common thread other than they all have powers. Even the whole agency/hospital/prison/whatever place is muddles.In conclusion, the problem is writers who don't know how to tell a compelling story.
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...DAMN!
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See, I like the worldwide feel that Heroes has. It does need more coherence, but I think that multi-location approach is actually a visual strongpoint.
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The problem is that's never been what Peter is. Originally his power was presented as something that he had to "connect" with the owner to mimic, agreed. But they lost that early on in the first season (if they ever really had it). His connecting with Future Sylar to gain his analytical ability was kind of a stab at that. But otherwise up until now he just absorbs... everything. If they put the restriction on the power that they originally said, that it was an empathic kind of mimicry, the character might have a chance. But after a little under two years of forgetting how they originally said his power works, that seems unlikely.
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Sorry. originally in "Distractions" they said that Peter had to remember how the person whose power he was mimicking made him feel. But if that was ever consistently the case, they tossed it out the window when he had amnesia and still could mimic powers. It was Kring who said, "Peter’s is based on his empathy and his ability to connect with people and when he’s around them." Guess he forgot: whoops. When's the last time you got the vaguest hint that Peter was, say, thinking of Hiro and Elle last week when he teleported into Pinehearst and created a lightning bolt?
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I agree, to an extent. They do need to reign that in really. Look, I love the show, but if Peter's going to absorb every fucking power it makes everyone else feel secondary to requirements. When he regains his ability, either Peter or someone else should make it loud and clear that he can only use certain abilities at certain times.
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See, I think it evolved so that particular feelings led to using his abilities. When he uses Telekinesis, he turns more vicious and uncaring; he phases out of corners when he's trapped; he teleported to New York when he wanted to know who he was and what the future held... but yeah, fuck that. I want the caring Peter back, because that was nothing like any other character. They need to start having characters be unique again - caring Peter, manipulative Nathan, honest Matt, convicted Hiro etc.
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"I AIN'T GOT TIME TO BLEED."
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How goes the happy hap? Nice to break this thread up with some inanity!
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Sylar was one of the main reasons S1 was so enjoyable, he was a crafty predator who always made a chump out of the more powerfull Peter, because he was smart about his powers. The show recognizes that Peter is an over-emotional dumb-ass, and that is his weakness. I'm enjoying S3, but they ruined Sylar. He went from being the great unknown, brain eating lunatic who had no greater aspirations than collecting powers, basically a super-powered Hannibal Lecter, and turned him into an addiction-recovering super powered Fred Rogers, who in fact doesn't eat brains, and finds the idea disgusting. In season 1 and 2 he was secondary to the main villain, but was somehow more menacing. Dexter has shown that modern Americans can get behind an anti-hero who happens to be a homocidal sociopath, they need to have him give up on changing his ways. Nikki was killed, Micah is pretty much history. Adam is dead, a villain has the power to take away powers and kill the immortal, so actual death has been restored. Hiro and Peter are starting to realize that messing with time travel is a bad idea. They should just keep riffing on the butterfly effect until Hiro and Peter stop time traveling because it only makes the situation worse. They are off to a good start this season: A dystopic future where powers are hunted like criminals got turned into the world being shattered because of Peter and Hiro's meddling. Peter saw future Peter screw things up and get killed. This season seems to be addressing many of the flaws you all keep bitching about. The main problem this show has is that Kring listens to the fan boys, and you can't make art with a buch of haters riding shotgun.
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Count me in as one who abandoned ship. I didn't really intend to, I just lost interest during the second season, and haven't really wanted to get started with it all this year. I like watching my History Channel "The Universe" DVD's better.
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Is actually not such a bad idea. Think Dexter in a world where super powers exist, and he gets powers more by killing other killers. I guess you'd have to change the name to "Anti-Heroes" though.
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Oct 27, 2008 7:27:56 PM CDT
SCCs ratings having fallen? Could it be the lack of HUGE T888 BA
by pixelsmack
YES.
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More huge battles, more T888s, more future war...find a budget.
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Oct 27, 2008 7:38:56 PM CDT
Pains me to say it, but I agree with the entire article...
by paul t. ryan
It's become like the later seasons of Buffy, where characters who should have been retired are hanging around for no good story reason, and the Big Threats don't seem especially big. And as interesting as it is to see a redeemed Sylar, he really should have been killed off at the end of season one.
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only to come back. Not counting Claire, why do they keep killing people and bringing them back. HRG, Nathan(twice), Peter, Nikki (now she has another name). I'm sure I'm forgetting some. If you kill someone, keep them dead, otherwise after awhile the viewers feel there is no real threat for the Heroes.
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Oct 27, 2008 7:59:54 PM CDT
Change we can believe in, and this episode will provide it, IMO.
by pennsy
So here we go.
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Knew he was gonna say it, but it was LMAO.
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It's about damn time the cavalry showed up around here, wouldn't you say?
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Lyle must die. :)
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just need a season limit. LOST, Prison Break, Heroes. It'd be nice, just once in awhile, to write a show that won't go beyond X number of seasons. You know, PB should have been 2. LOST, 4. Heroes, maybe 3... enough with the dragging it out until the ratings suck. The problem with TV series is most of them aren't written with a definite beginning, middle and end, like a novel or movie. If they were, you'd have a much better show rather than series that are dragged out, with "filler" episodes (EVERY show has 'em) etc.
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Maury!
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First time watching in 2 years, and could this show take itself any more seriously? The piano music, everyone beaking dead serious, everyone seems to be related. It's just joyless as of the first 20 minutes.
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just when things were getting interesting. He could have been useful as a hero.
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I know LOST is ending in 2 seasons but they really could have trimmed it down a bit.
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the end of season ONE. End it like Old Yeller. Shoot the show in the head and end it. It's in misery.
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So Sylar is *Arthur's* son?
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that was kinda hot. shockporn.
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that I didn't see coming.
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Word.
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So since Matt's dad made people see what they want to see you think that Matt learned that little trick too? (Or that Matt's dad is using it to make people think he's dead?)
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Heroes is back. The viewership most definitely is not, but the show is.
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jccalhoun, you're onto something. :)
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Aw hells yeah.
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It's a mess, a complete mess, they are just repeating the second season all over again, but even more convoluted, people are dying left and right but then not dying after all... how long will Parkman and Daphne stay dead do you think? There are still flashes of how good the show was in the first season but overall it's a train wreck. The article makes a lot of good points, there's no commitment from the writers, they kill off Niki only to bring out Tracey... For fucksake, Parkman and Daphne are already back. Get a spine Kring.
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Can't believe I just said that.
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Yeah, but did Sylar put a swerve on Arthur, I wonder?
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So they change Sylar from one of the greatest tv villains into a momma's boy then, in a few minutes, Papa Petrelli has him all turned around again. This isn't character development, it's just whimsy. Hmm, I wonder how long Peter will stay dead now?
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In Citizens Bank park in Philly, is the visiting teams bull pen upstairs and on an platform? It sure looks that way.
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a story is only as good as the villian, and they've neutered Sylar
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This shows like a shit snake sucking on its own tale. They are perpetually painting into corners(do some of these guys write for 24), time travelling, spinning their own wheels. They continually add new characters to compensate for developing existing characters. Last season was a boring joke and this season is a parody of all before.
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She's pretending that she's pretending to pretend to be a bad guy.So Hiro is going to be seeing his dad on his vision quest I'm guessing/hoping?
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That takes you back before they wer heroes lol , spinning wheels keep on spinning
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I mean this year is full of flaws and even I saw the first 2 episoed and was turned right off.I mean enough with all the new characters popping in.. The Mexican Bros and Sis was fine, but did it have to go so freaking long for them to get to Suresh (or however they spell it!). Come the hell on, every damn episode until she finally sees him she goes to black, her bro stops her, couple of people die, move on .. and again and again.. It's like the writers had absolutely nowhere to go with the character.. Then the whole Petrelli incidents. Can someone ask the writers to stop it with the multi-seasonal twists? They have so many of them that they become obsolete... You just sit there and go "Ah ok.. here's another one.." You're his mom, Dad's alive, Peter not Peter, Peter's in someone else, Nathan is dead, then isn't .. I mean please someone stop this nonsense.. I feel like the whole show was supposed to have only been for one single season, but it attracted so many that they said, ok .. well.. do another one.. and they did.. in 12.5 hours or thinking for the whole plot of the second season.And the fact that the speedster girl is just getting on my nerves with Ando and Hiro. fffffuuuuukkkkkkkkkkkkk... They should've stuck with three characters at most from the first season and moved on if they wanted to introduce more of them. Now the whole show looks like X-Men 3: the movie that should've never have been made.I also have to agree with someone who posted that they keep on stealing ideas from 10 different shows, comics, and movies.. Suresh and the whole Fly/Spider thing makes you think Jeff Goldbloom in The Fly; and so on..
If you where to use the Future Painter Power again.. Why not just have kept the original guy who at least had some issues and somewhat of a character dilema that had substance, thi snew guy running around Africa (which looks just like the California desert) painting shit on rocks is just a guy who in Africa that paints shit on rocks.... Oh yeah .. and he's got a walking stick... woohoo... The whole show has gone wrong. Nothing to keep you watching everyweek, heck I missed last week's episode, and missing this weeks also, because I got tired of the crap. Peter has more power than everyone, then he goes to the future, then comes back now he's two Peter, now there's one now he doesn't have powers.. man.. this is getting lame... Unless they actually get a writer who can deliver a storyline and a punch for the next season, this show will be cancelled without a doubt.
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I'm at least one ep behind. But about the BSG Season 4.1-4.10 DVD cover... Is it just me or is Apollo staring right at Starbuck's rack? Interesting choice of cover shots to be sure...
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Heroes' Lena Fucking Olin. :)
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for the love of god stop wasting our time with flashbacks and flashforwards. It is nice to see that there are working toward getting all the heros together in one place again.
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and does Daphne not realize Parkman can read her freaking mind?! I mean how long does she think she can keep this shit up? God Damn you Heroes.
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Have Kristen in the last scene of the teaser. Works every fucking time. WELL WORTH the month and a half-long wait.
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Maybe his abilties are such that he can shield Daphne from Matt's probing. Or Matt lets his guard down and trusts her.
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CBS just cancelled it. http://ausiellofiles.ew.com/2008/10/this-just-in-cb.html. As in the last 40 minutes-just.
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Lets see, first, he gets bored and lets the formula get stolen and doesn't go back in time to easily stop it from happening. Next, he tries to get the other half of formula, but causes that to get stolen and is captured by the Haitian. He then frees Adam and lets him escape. So he tricks Daphne to let him work for Pinehurst, and is sent on mission to capture African Issac, which he fails AGAIN. Now he seems to have abandoned that previous plan to go on a vision quest?
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mind you. :)
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before killing him. Why throw away a useful ability like that?
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I won't be able to watch the show until tomorrow my time. Do they explain how Papa P. was able to take Petey P. powers? Because to me it seems like that is a massive plot hole since Peter was in the room with daddy. Shouldn't he have Papas power? Or does daddy have a kill switch like the Haitian?
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I tried watching it during the first season and just didn't care about anybody. There was really no direction on what and when. 'Save the cheerleader save the world' was one of most anti-climatic lead ins EVER. That's when I knew they were just writing it as they go. It will stay on for another season, then end. because all the actors will want to go all 'ER' and try to pursue 'MOVIE CAREERS'. Good riddance!
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when I posted "Hey, Cheerleader."
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Arthur already has Maury's power. He absorbed Peter's empathy power absorb, so he could have gotten it that way. Plus Peter had Parkman's version of it, which means Arthur could have likewise obtained it that way. Either way, he has it.
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Oct 27, 2008 11:49:04 PM CDT
I guess Peter can get his scar now that his powers are gone.
by serious black
I admit I was getting tired of this show a few weeks back, but man what a difference the last couple episodes have made. I think Arthur could be a great new bad guy.
I agree with most here that the whole time travel thing needs to go or somehow be sharply curtailed. Healing blood is okay in principle, but again it's use should be limited. Limited use of healing blood is easy to justify as most people can only accept certain types of blood. Or perhaps there is a deadly reaction to Claire's blood after a second exposure. Something along those lines would let healing blood be used only in certain circumstances.
I assume Peter will get his powers back whenever his dad gets killed. I wonder if Adam will get resurrected then, too. -
Problem is, it's now two episodes and we don't know what the heck Art's got planned, or why. "Let's take the fight to the enemy" at about the 20 minute mark... and then nothing the rest of the episode. Why are bad guys like Knox and Flint working for him? Did he promise them Primatech? Good pay? Dental benefits? And the next ep flashback probably won't tell us anything. Also, wasn't Maury in Angela's earlier vision as part of the Arthur assault team? Guess that won't be happening now: whoops.
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1. CANCEL
2. IT(and)3. BRING
4. BACK
5. VERONICA MARSThen I can go back to watching a show that not only had Kristen Bell... but that I always enjoyed watching. HEROES is such a convoluted bore this season, I can barely make it past SchmoHinder's increasingly annoying narratives before I just change the channel. -
This is how the show has been from Season 1. The dialogue has always been horrid, the backstories lame. Remember the first season where they hid that DNA symbol/kensei symbol all over the place. A complete rip off of the numbers from LOST.
So anyways, they had a good idea, making a world where everyday people showcase powers. But they continually broke their own rules and logic. Season 2 got worse, and now Season 3 is just a mish mash of stuff. I think they figured more action and flash, and jumping between stories will hid the fact that as others have said, that they're pulling the stories out their ass.
I'm still watching it, but each week i wonder why? -
There is to much going on in the show. This is the major problem that i have with this show, now i am not stupid i can keep up with it thats hardly the problem. The problem is that there is so much jumping from sub plot to sub plot that i don't get time to get attached to any of the characters.
If they had the the show done with 2 characters per episode then say every 6th episode how they have it now it be worth more in character growth.
ps claire and ando are fucking getting on my tits ! -
I think that time travel should be used one final time after "Fugitives". Make a stand alone 2 hour event called "Retcon". Send Hiro and Ando back in time and eliminate both Peter Petrelli and Sylar's abilites. Maybe even eliminate Suresh as well. Then in an event that would eliminate time travel have Hiro sacrifice his abilities so no one can travel through time again. Hiro and Ando can then use his family fortune to create a true Batman and Robin with samurai swords relationship. Future Hiro from Season 1 was a force to be reckoned with. With all of his father's money Hiro should be able to spend his time turning himself into a fighter. If these people truly are Heroes then they would still be heroic without their abilities. We could then see Peter be "one of us" for Primatech and perhaps Sylar will still find himself completely obsessed with killing Heroes on his own. Perhaps due to learning of his true lineage. With no secrets to protect and nothing to gain but saving lives or taking them we get back to a truly archetypical story. I don't think that you can just give this show two 13 episode seasons with an overarching story and fix it. They have to sacrifice some crutches and rebuild from what made people care about this show, Season 1. Hopefully Bryan Fuller will be too busy making Pushing Daisies for many more years to come back... but if ABC were to cancel one of the best shows on television then maybe he could come up with something that'll work.
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No, it isn't explained in the episode, but they've explained it in the past. It's not just being in the same room as the other person, he has to be thinking like the other person as well to use their power. That's why he had to learn Sylar's power by fixing the watch.
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..oops, I forgot. "jumped the shark" has nuked the fridge. I just want them to nuke that show, then feed them to the sharks. I'm on the verge of giving up on Terminator:TSCC too. Just one more freakin' yawn and I'm outta there!
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He was the secret to why the first season was so entertaining. Now that he is doing the immmensely entertaining Pushing Daisies, he'll never be back.
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Oct 28, 2008 2:28:32 AM CDT
I'm looking forward to how Kring explains this season!
by bob cryptonight
With the show losing viewers AND getting very poor write ups from reviewers, I'm looking forward to Kring's next big interview to see who he blames. But, I doubt if the show will get canceled because NBC will still see it as a potential hit (and they need all the help they can get). I wonder if they can replace Kring? Does anyone know if NBC owns the show?
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ew is basically giving the same ideas it did last season...it doesnt matter...the problem is kring...the problem is not loeb, hes a paid hack, and only lends his name to the production...kring thinks he was being smart by hiring some people from the comix industry as writers...problem is, he hired guys who write for titles like supes...and while they may be good, it doesnt take much creativity to write for a title that has been around for 60 years...unless kring is removed as show runner, this show is not going anywhere...the only positive i see in it, is that tim sale gets a steady gig...
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yet somehow, tdk became the biggest grossing film of all time..and it was partially based on the long halloween...i liked long halloween, and i like much of what loeb has done...true, some of his stuff is absolute shite, but the stuff he has done with sale is pretty good...his hulk stuff on the other hand, i can basically do without
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Would you take movie advice from E's red carpet crew? Why would you listen these people on how to these people for anything production wise. Their most experienced writer is Stephen King. And he still has no idea how to make a movie or a mini series, much less a full fledged TV series. Look, the reason HEROES is on the decline was because of a poor second season. The third season so far is much, much better. Once people catch up with the DVD release for this season next year, the ratings will improve. Count on it.
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One of the major problems with the show is that there is way too much going on. Needs to cut back on some of the storylines. Cut some of the characters also. Get better writers. It just seems that there is no real direction for the show. Feels that they are making up along the way.
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Did I imagine reading that somewhere a few years ago?
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and the writers. "Peter/Hiro/Claire/etc are idiots", "There are too many characters", "The stories are recycled/ripped-off", "The dialog is horrible", "There are huge plot holes", "Why didn't X just do Y?", "Why do they keep reviving people?", "The back stories are lame", "The plots are contrived" etc, etc, etc. These are all very legitimate complaints and the reason why the ratings have dropped. But you can't "fix" any of these problems unless you first realize that they exist because of cheap, shoddy storytelling vision/direction and really bad writing.
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I met him once in a social setting and found him to be an utterly rude arsehole. I've heard he's a nice guy from a few people but I wasn't impressed! Also- first season- great- we were finding stuff out as they were. The we sadly ahd the season finale and the "everybody waits for the their turn" fight- rubbish! As was the 2nd season- boring and more boring and just not fun or interesting. The new season I watched a few time and Yes- it IS better. I thought a lot better but I still don't give a shit about it anymore and don't watch it cos I have more interesting things to do like clean the toilet.
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The decline, no matter how good last night's episode was, is probably irreversible. I foresee Heroes closing up shop after season 4.
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Thanks for your lifeforce-taking power, now get your ass on that plane back to Mexico.
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First of all, this post is NOT for all the "cool" people who proclaim "I never watched Heroes", "Sooperheroes iz stoopid", "EW is an evil piece of shit", and "I can count to 21 with my clothes off." Please, move on to the next post. Buh-bye.*** Are they gone? Good. Heroes was kinda like my college girlfriend: I didn't wanna like her, I knew she had issues, but I ended up becoming attached anyway, and later, when she fucked me over, I was a confused mess. Now, I haven't progressed to the point where I'm getting drunk, breaking windows, and crying, "Why, Heroes?! Why do you make me hurt myself?!?" But I am longing for better times, which is far too early in this relationship. Jeff Jensen makes some good points. Go easy on 'im, he's a fellow fanboy. "One of us! One of us!" :)Heroes came out the gate a live action comic book, something I thought would not work. It had an engrossing story with compelling characters- It took the element of the fantastic and somehow made it logical and relatable. That was its virtue. It saddens me when I think of how much potential this show has that it's not exploring. It gave us appealing personalities like Hiro, a neb who would be the most powerful Hero of all; Nathan, a politician with the generic wish-fulfillment power of flight (but since he's played by Adrian Pasdar, he's actually cool); and the adorable Clairbear, a high school girl with a healing factor. I was excited to see their stories gradually intertwine and speculated about ominous events looming on the horizon. We saw ourselves in these people. It posed the question What would you do in this situation?
Here it is a couple of years later, and I begin to ponder what happened to NBC's best show? The media has compared this show to a little sci-fi series called Star Trek. I'd rather ignore such comparisons personally. Trek didn't last very long.
This season has bombarded us with so many heavy concepts that it's hard to remember the wonder felt at the beginning, when we beheld normal chicks and dudes discovering that their lives were forever altered. -
I said it at the end of the first season when the show turned into CSI with the murder of the day being a major character murdered. The show went from a wondrous magical show into a jarring experience when without warning a Major character, a Favorite Character - would suddenly be killed for no good reason other than the 'shock' value. That black fellow who phases through walls died suddenly, for no good reason, an irrational bit of shock that just pissed me off. Then they killed George Takei for no good damn reason, that was it for me. Idiot fans at the time would say 'be loyal', 'you're not a real fan', 'stay with the show, it'll get better' - I say screw you guys, if a show or a movie is not fun, does not move me, excite me, intrigue me, interest me - then you know, the world is full of entertainments that does that. The Heroes people didn't catch the clue when their plans to kill HRG in the beginning of the show failed because 'PEOPLE LIKED THE CHARACTER!' - so they figured, no problem, our 'vision' of killing characters will go on - we'll just kill other characters. Well, guess what, you started killing main characters and people like me said no thanks, if I want to watch X-Files, CSI - whatnot I'll watch those shows. You've forever lost that half of your audience who don't appreciate seeing characters killed at your writing whim. You guys will never admit it but the early success of the show was a mistake that being able to 'implement your vision for the show' soon corrected. - Oh, and for you Kristen Bell lovers - the show was good before she was on there, and bad when she was on the show. And I agree with DevilsOwn analysis.
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I bailed after episode 1...it was good last year.
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The audience is not accepting of the shows spreading itself so thin. I can see why many impatient people's intrigue is waning. That aside i thing most of you are dumb for not seeing the well written aspects of the show. Hiro did not get dumb this season. His dad died, he saw his friend kill him and then the world ended. He needs to fucking grow up and his immaturity is shining through right now with all these intensely negative stresses in his life. This is also why Peter was being such a kook. Nathanial was being mind controlled, and Surresh has always been fucking retarded. Everyone else is the same jerkoff they always were. There is action in every episode now, the world's fate is always up for grabs, there's fucked up injuries and situations and the same heavy drama from the first season. Wheres the problem?
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It's finally be un-DVR'd. Too many characters and too little intelligence. Everyone acts stupid. Hiro is now completely retarded. Hardly a single character acts like a normal semi-intelligent person anymore. Peter "forgets" to mention that his dad not only took his powers away, HE HAS THEM ALL. Gee, might that be an important point seeing as you know Nathan wants to run off and meet his dad? That the guy is basically invincible now and extremely dangerous? The writing just has zero common-sense and it's a disgrace. They need at least one person, who may or may not be a writer, to just LOOK OVER what they write to make sure it MAKES SENSE, because right now it's just a joke.
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... from the guy who spearheaded Misfits of Science back in the 80s? They did a parallel-reality story/alternate timeline (sorta) in that too. And the characters acted like idiots. And there was a human scientist. And electrical and telekinesis powers played a big part (thankfully, nobody yet has shrinking on Heroes). And Kring jumped on every comic book stereotype bandwagon of the time. All MoS needed was a decent super-powered bad guy and it'd be identical. :)
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Christ, I hate saying this, but I dig where most of you are coming from. Is it too late to "fix" anything? Is this show circling the drain, as many predict? I'd like to not think so, as it was one of my favorites. But this season, even moreso than the last, I am becoming more acutely aware of the quality. This program is becoming what I feared it would be, what I call a Dorito show: a corny, cheesey guilty pleasure no self-respecting adult would admit to partaking of. A couple years ago, if someone who had never seen Heroes were to ask me for a high concept description of the series, I would've said "It's like X-Men meets Lost." Now, if someone were to ask me that I would say, "It's like X-Men meets Lost, only without the intelligent characters, believable settings, or logical plots." The show is simply not living up to its potential. With each bloodlessly acted scene, with each wince-inducing line of dialogue, with every random plot twist, I have to wonder if the creators really have a plan at all? Peter was supposed to be the Luke Skywalker POV character, so why is he not progressing? They devoted so much time to building up Nikki's character(btw, I thought it was cool that they made a woman the physically strongest AND most morally ambivalent) only to have her die in a fire?! And Sylar was a great villain; if they were going to bring him back, it should be as a villain. Yeah, life will go on without it, but it sure seems like they're cutting the ride short. What is the point of having all these appealing performers at your disposal if you give their characters all the common sense of a coked up lemming? It makes it hard for one to trust this Kring fella. He apologised for the second season, which to me, was quite damning. The real hardcore creators don't admit to mistakes, hell, sometimes they defend them! He keeps promising big things;)...I believe it's going to have to be FUCKING good changes. The writers need to look at the material they keep "borrowing" from and see that if they can't reinvent the wheel a la Frank Miller, they can at least make changes that are important and don't seem arbitrary, like Crisis on Infinite Earths, and believable characterization, as in the best X-Men adventures.
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Too many characters. Bench some of them.
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Those aren't suggestions. I've got equally useful suggestion: Come with a new, brilliant idea that will change the face of television forever, illustrated on a piece of paper with a giant question mark on it. Whether they kill people or not is irrelevant since we never really got attached to anyone. It's all in how you kill them. For instance, DL and Nikki 1 went out stupidly--total waste of character deaths. As was Adam's death last week. Couldn't they have had the father just kill some random superpowerful escapee? And clearly Peter doesn't care that his girlfriend is trapped in an alternate future forever. If you're going to kill characters, do it well. But yeah, the characters need to wise up.
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Damn! I heard or read about Kring creating MoS a while back, but forgot about it. The guy is plagiarizing his own work! I find that... disconcerting.*** Some people may find me foolish for taking this long to come around, but what can I say? I'm a closet optimist. I hope that somehow they will wake up and see a show can have an ensemble cast without being a sprawling mess. It needs to be more centralized, focus on fewer characters (i.e. HRG, Hiro, and Parkman),and have more memorable villains.
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"I wish I could quit you." "Then why don'tcha?!" "Maybe I'll just Tivo you and wait til later to watch you..."
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The older generation having powers castrated the younger generation and what was fun about the show. The series started out being about how a lot of young peoople were discovering they had new powers, there was mystery as well as a feeling of generational empowerment. By revealing the powers to have been around a long time they undercut the sense of newness and by giving powers to their parents it just spoiled everything.
Get back to it being about young people dealing with a new change and trying to figure things out themselves. -
I don't really believe the show is salvageable. It's just that's where I think they went wrong.
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On how to get this show back in shape, it could be a contest. But the concensus seems to be they need to: 1. Cut the dead wood. 2. Smarten up a bit. And 3. Get rid of meandering plots.
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Tim Kring is the problem. He's never once had an original, creative idea in the entire run of this show.
Bryan Fuller WAS the solution to the problem that made S1 watchable and entertaining. But he's gone. What heroes needs is a true creative force on this writing staff. Not just someone who can write a decent episode, but someone with an imagination and a vision for the big picture of the series. This would of course require them to replace Kring, but hey, he had his shot. Get someone like Fuller (not him, obviously, since he's busy) to be the SHOWRUNNER, not just some cog in the writing machine.
Sadly, while I believe Pushing Daisies is the infinitely superior show to Heroes, its ratings are doing just as, if not more, horribly. And it doesn't have the whole, "we used to be a phenomenon" argument on its side that Heroes does, so I fear its not long for this world. If it DOES end, maybe Fuller could return as a produer/writer on Heroes. At least until he dreams up his next original work of genius, that is. -
1)Kill Suresh 2) kill suresh 3) kill suresh 4) make Hiro less annoying
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a whole fucking lot politer than I woulda
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both have proven themselves in the fantasy/sci fi genre and have the experience within the comix world...they are both well respected and are more creative than guys half their age...im just not clear what is keeping the suits at nbc from making the move...any move....shoot, if heroes was an nfl team, kring wouldve been fired after the second week this season...shit, i would even take a chance and make beaman the showrunner...i read his blog weekly, and while he is great at hyping the show, im getting the vibe that even he aint buying into the direction the show is going in
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found him to be more than charming, and more than willing to shoot the shit...before loeb and sale really hit it big, they were at my local comic book store doing a signing (this was the first time i met them both) i had a full half hour with both of those guys, where we just talked shit about all the image dudes...it was great...last time i ran into loeb was 4 years ago at comic con...and he still remembered me, which was cool...and i really dont blame heroes on him....heroes is a paycheck, i dont think he is really vested in its success or failure
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Off the top of my head, I dont recall to many homages to Long Halloween other than the visuals of the flaming pile of money and the scene with Dent, Gordon, and Bats on the rooftop. Ironically, I do think that there was one major thing from TLH that would have benefited the film, which is Harvey Dent's arc and the friendship between the three men which, in TDK, could have been better developed.
You're right though that Loeb is at his best with Tim Sale, who manages to make mediocre scripts epic in scope with some really iconic artwork. I'll concede though that Dardevil Yellow was pretty good. -
Hmmmmmm.
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happy now? and blindambition238, nolan stated that he used aspects of long halloween while writing the script...the dent arc is basically right out of the pages of the book...so i just watched last nites epi...it was better than the first few episodes, mainly because of forester, but the overall plot remains confusing and convoluted...seems that kring and company are using pinehearst to pair down the amount of heroes in the show, which would be a good thing, if anyone could fill in the amazing plot holes...at least the writers are poking some fun at their own absurdities and plot twists...but damn...please kill mohinder
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I'm sure that Nolan read it, but I still don't think the finish product reflects too much of it plot-wise. Dent's arc especially...
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Explain this for me: why does Noah keep saying he's the only one who can stop the "villains" when all he ever brings to the battle is a stupid pistol that he aims at someone and they usually kick his ass? I mean, wtf!!!? Is there some explanation for this other than "it's a crappy show that has little basis in logic?" I'm curious, is all.
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Oct 28, 2008 10:43:16 PM CDT
bacci40 - way to aim high, but realistically speaking...
by flickchick85
Whedon's a little extra busy trying to get his own show off the ground right now, so let's just say he's out. I may be blanking on the obvious here, but who's JMS?
One suggestion that I made in another Heroes thread would be Whedon alum David Greewalt. I thought he made just as great a showrunner on Angel as Whedon did with Buffy, and he seemed to specialize in long character arcs that never lost sight of the big picture. Plus, he seems available right now according to IMDB at least, so he could be realistic option.
Another writer I'm keeping my eye on, albeit a less experienced one than Greenwalt, is Brian K. Vaughan. I'm not a comics reader (except for Buffy and Watchmen), but I know he's written some pretty popular stuff in that world, I LOVED his Faith arc in Buffy, and as far as I can tell, Lost seemed to get a whole lot better once he came on board. If they wanted to go with a comics guy, I think he'd be a great choice. Just get SOMEONE other than Kring already, Heroes! -
JMS is Joe Michael Straczynski, the creator of the greatest science fiction television show ever, Babylon 5. He has also written some pretty good comic books, and was partially responsible for the crap Spider-man arc "One More Day" (where Peter Parker makes a deal with the devil to save his dying 200 year old aunt).
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JMS also wrote the screenplay for the new Clint Eastwood directed movie "The Changeling" (starring Angelina Jolie), and is working on the screenplay adaptation of the great novel, "World War Z".
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I haven't gotten around to seeing Babylon 5 yet (I AM a BSG fan, though, so I'm not completely against "space shows" or anything), but I've heard its one of the best examples of long-term storytelling on TV.
I wasn't planning on seeing "The Changeling" b/c I hated the last few Eastwood films I saw, but I realize after "Crash" that the problem was really with Paul Haggis, so maybe I'll check this one out after all. -
which is a much better version of heroes, was ripped off by the makers of the 4400, and the project has been floating around hollywood for a good 10 years...yet kring says he never heard of it either...if you havent read rising stars...i suggest you do, just to see what jms couldve done with a similar series...im still pretty shocked that he never brought legal action against either usa or nbc...of course, that aint his style...as for babylon 5...it is the show that every showrunner should be forced to watch to get lessons in continuity, script writing and dialogue....my mom hates scifi, but she watched that show with my dad (an og geek...you guys would be amazed at his collection of pulps and scifi mags) religiously
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I still like Heroes, but I am quickly losing my patience with it.
The first season was phenomenal in large part because it slowly developed each character, and the overall plot. In seasons two and three, it seems as if they have accelerated the narrative, and thrown in so many curveballs it is almost impossible to keep up, and to keep your emotions in check. He's good, he's bad... I like him, I hate him... The company is evil, the company is good... the company is better than the NEW company... phew!
Heroes needs to get back to good storytelling... its not all about shock and awe at every turn. -
I don't know, I suspect he's a bit past his peak these days. And what made B5 great was the arc. This show doesn't need a big arc, it needs better day to day writing. But I guess it couldn't hurt at this point. S3 and S4 of B5 were some of the most amazing seasons in TV history of any show. If the show were more consistent, I'd say it was the best sci-fi show ever. But given the 5th and much of the 1st season's weakness, the best sci-fi show award would have to go to Farscape. Perhaps they could get O'Bannon on it. I wonder what he's doing these days?
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We were about to be preempted tonight, but looks like Pushing Daisies gets a pass: http://tinyurl.com/6dlqha .
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