Sept. 5, 2008, 10:04 a.m. CST
Looked like a good deal from the pics on the GW site, nice to know that it's actually as cool as it sounds. It'll be fun to put these new snap togethers next to my old 2nd edition Marine/Ork figs just to see how far GW's come as a company.
Sept. 5, 2008, 10:05 a.m. CST
Sept. 5, 2008, 10:17 a.m. CST
As much as I am fast to throw around my haterade around here, its only fair to note when things are done well. Two for two today, sir<p> As for tabletop miniatures, I've played over 50 different systems from pre-historic man vs beasts to Vietnam squad level insurgency, and a litany of other settings. My favorite is the squad level simplicities of games like Necromunda and Mordheim (both summarily abandoned by Games Workshop). The few tabletop minature games I have HATED all have one aspect in common: hexmaps.<p> minature games with hexmaps are lazily designed and hastily constructed. It smacks of "we spent all our R&D money on miniatures, so rush out a no-brainwork-required hexmap system and make it quick!" Hexmaps are for Avalon Hill cardboard chit games like Panzer Leader and Gunslinger. They are the adolescent game design, having grown up from the infancy of Candyland and Monopoly squaremaps. A mature fully grown game system that attempts to recreate conflict and battle uses measured distances. It allows the game surface itself to become part of the three dimensional game experience. I had looked forward to this game for a very long time, but upon learning it was a Milton Bradley styled 'map with spaces' game, I walked away disinterested. As one brilliant essayist might have put it, "..with the dead eyes of a bored hooker."<p> Much like the highly touted but ultimately lifeless Axis & Allies Miniatures (who took hexmapping to an alltime low by offering folded paper maps that played like you just pulled the game out of a box of Rice Crispies), this game will NOT appeal to the true minatures gamer for this reason alone. They'll stick with WH 40k because hexmaps are lazy and cheap. In the late 1970s and early 1980's they were innovative. By today's standards, they're the slate and chalk to our scientific calculators. They're rudimentary, pedestrian, and in an oddly appropriate vernacular, "played out".<p> A long time ago, I remember some other company had come out with a squad level game to directly compete with Necromunda. A true 40k with 12 figures. For the life of me I cannot remember its name, but I always enjoyed that system.
Sept. 5, 2008, 10:28 a.m. CST
As a RPGer, and only an in-passing minis guy, I don't get it... What makes hexes bad? Do really-real wargamers use tape measures only?
Sept. 5, 2008, 10:29 a.m. CST
At risk of coming off as elitist, the answer is yes.
Sept. 5, 2008, 10:42 a.m. CST
It's like I started reading a complicated geek joke.
Sept. 5, 2008, 10:59 a.m. CST
I'm going to go to GW Wood Green tomorrow to buy mine, they're giving away loads of free stuff.
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:01 a.m. CST
uhm - you're a 30-something work-dodging troll on Aint-it-Cool-News Dot Com.<p> How do YOU get laid?
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:02 a.m. CST
Bottle of lube, internet porn, and a shot of novicane for my right hand when my left gets tired.
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:05 a.m. CST
I'm assuming because it's more "off the rails" and allows better use of modeling terrain, yes? Just wanted some clarifying in case it was a some squares vs. hexes sorta thing. My D&D group used to be big into terrain and we've gone to battlemats and dry-erase for ease of use. Makes me very sad.
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:21 a.m. CST
Hey Arcadian! You might be interested to know that there's a rumor circulating around ( perhaps Mass knows something about it ) that when Fantasy Flight Games took over the license of the Dark Heresy RPG and the Talisman board game from GW, that they might have in fact got the license to bring out a new version of Necromunda, Mordhiem and some of the other second line games. Just a rumor, but it would be great if it was true. Also, if you've never tried it see if you can't find a copy of Gangs of Mega City One, the Judge Dredd miniatures game by Mongoose. It's essentially Necromunda with Judge Dredd instead of Adeptus Arbites. Good times!
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:25 a.m. CST
For me it depends on the game. Battletech and most of the old FASA properties work best with hexes in my opinion just because you have to do some pretty crazy adjustments to play on terrain. Why they couldn't have just kept 1 hex = 1 inch is beyond me. Car Wars is one of the games that plays a thousand times better off hexes. 'course, it allows you, a grown man, an excuse to mount GI Joe guns onto Matchbox cars. Which is a blast.
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:26 a.m. CST
Certainly, hexes are superior to squares for obvious reasons - which is why for a _tabletop_ wargame, a hex map is the best design that you can use. But a _miniatures_ wargame isn't a tabletop wargame. They're entirely different corners of the wargaming marketplace. Avalon Hill's use of hexmaps was a solid approach to design because their games involved hundreds of cardboard chits with numbers and letters printed on them. Their products were abstracts by their very nature - so an abstract playing surface blended well with that system. but a minautures wargame is a game that doesn't just appeal to Risk fans who seek out the thrill of winning a board game. Minature wargames appeal to people who want to recreate something - to experience a game. Winning is secondary to the experience. In some cases, it is uhm..'thirdiary' to the creation of one's units and the actual battlefield itself. Hexes for minatures just feels to many minature wargamers, like someone built a cardboard Avalon Hill style game, and decided they could make a lot of money if they wanted people to buy minatures for it to replace the cardboard chits. Days of Wonder is FAMOUS for this approach. They have built several Avalon Hill style cardboard games, and then have thrown out the chits and added a stack of blue and orange plastic soldiers - and found that they can dramatically increase the price of the product by giving it an improved 'eyeball appeal' As popular as Memoir '44 is, and its fantasy-based clone - they are not minatures games. They're Avalon Hill cardboard abstracts with an improved marketing and revenue plan.
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:28 a.m. CST
Fantasy Flight bought the rights to every Games Workshop boardgame that does NOT INVOLVE ANY MINATURES. This means they cannot create Gothic, Man 'O War, Necromunda, or Mordheim. It would be nice if it were true, but Games Workshop continues to hold complete ownership of any and all games involving minatures.<p> They may find themselves forced to revisit that if they dont figure out a way to stop leaking money like a wounded Galleon - but for now, thats where we stand.
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:34 a.m. CST
Every boardgame that doesn't involve miniatures? Essentially anything that's not a miniatures wargame, then, as it seems that they can include miniatures judging by their version Talisman. That still leaves alot of potentially fertile ground to cover as there's a ton of fun old GW games out there. Judging by that, it also sounds like there might be an off chance of getting a revamp of Warhammer Quest, which considering how awesome FFG's Descent is could only be fantastic.
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:45 a.m. CST
Thanks for the overview. I appreciate it.
Sept. 5, 2008, 11:48 a.m. CST
by Urge to Kill
I'll never forget the epic read that was the 48 page rule book to Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition.
Sept. 5, 2008, 12:31 p.m. CST
by Darth Macchio
First: Massa...you should pop up a geocities (gasp! maybe something less sucky) page, post pics here, or something so we can check out your armies! I've been a GW gamer off and on for years but I still enjoy painting and there's no question, even the older, less detailed, 40k figs are the most fun and challenging to paint. You sound like one of those gamers with a fully painted force...I'd love to see them!<p>Second: Have any of you guys been reading the Black Library Horus Heresy series? If not, you must and right away. Already on the 8th book by all the GW writer usuals (including Abnett, my favorite!) but it is, finally, the telling of the most profound story coming out of the GW universe and it's totally kick ass! I highly recommend picking them up...even the weaker books are great but the good ones are just excellent! Abnett is the master!!!
Sept. 5, 2008, 12:53 p.m. CST
its a game that has minatures available, but its not in the same class as man 'o war, mordheim, and other actual miniatures games.
Sept. 5, 2008, 1 p.m. CST
One risks unfounded elitism to claim that miniature gaming must be free form vs chits being on Hexes. At the end of the day, functionally, miniatures are nothing more than very pretty chit markers. That is the crux of the issue. Though there are merits in the definitive nature of hexes over the vagaries of measuring, a miniature wargamer uses miniatures because they want the diorama. They want the visuals. Part of the visuals is the ability to see distances in scale terms. If a game wants to sell itself on its miniatures and its visual coolness then surely, it is self defeating if it plays on cardboard hex maps. To be fair, the miniatures for many such games really are suitable and fittingly wretched so it is all fair.
Sept. 5, 2008, 1:41 p.m. CST
The Horus Heresy series has been awesome. It's got a few books that were weaker than others, but altogether it's been a solid series. The Warhammer Legends series they've got going on looks to be just as promising, especially as the next book in that series will see Nagash returning to Warhammer lore. Very cool. And while Abnett's Heresy novels are freakin' awesome, I still wish he'd go back to Eisenhorn soon.
Sept. 5, 2008, 2:55 p.m. CST
Sept. 5, 2008, 2:57 p.m. CST
... on superhero news? Of course, all of the SPIDER-MAN movies did suck. Nevermind.
Sept. 5, 2008, 3:48 p.m. CST
I could do without Kristen Dunst, though, they should have killed Mary Jane off in the last one, and switced over to Bryce Dallas Howard.
Sept. 5, 2008, 4:52 p.m. CST
That last movie was so bad I wouldn've prefered they killed of Dancing Peter Parker.