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Do Not Misunderstimate Josh Brolin!

Beaks here... Thanks to Access Hollywood, here's your first substantial look at Josh Brolin capturing the folksy bluster of #43 in Oliver Stone's W.:


That boy has come a long way since THRASHIN'. Midway through this footage, you'll notice Elizabeth Banks using a video of a State of the Union address to, presumably, capture the physicality of Laura Bush. While it's definitely necessary to have that point of reference when you're recreating widely televised events, I hope there's more to these performances than simple mimicry. The real-life Bush is self-parodying enough; I'd like to see Stone dig deeper into the man's bitter petulance. If he settles for a glorified SNL sketch, W. will be out of theaters before the election. Right now, W. is scheduled for a limited release on October 17th (also known as "the day before Beaks turns thirty-five").

Readers Talkback
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  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:03 p.m. CST

    Beaks

    by CarmillaVonDoom

    Last week you mentioned viewing a candidate for worst movie of the year, but you said you were waiting to give us the story. Did you ever follow that up???? Gotta know.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:03 p.m. CST

    First

    by playahatersball

    don't underestimate my firstness

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:03 p.m. CST

    Damnit, I suck

    by playahatersball

    see above

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:04 p.m. CST

    Bush

    by MrDuke118

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:04 p.m. CST

    Oct 17

    by Jason B. Swaim

    is the day matalo turns 35. matalo rules Beaks

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:04 p.m. CST

    Carmilla

    by mefrog

    It was Sisterhood 2, he wrote his scathing review already. I hope this footage isn't leaked, sicne I'm at work and can't watch it. The one shot of Brolin at his desk in the trailer actually did look a bit like Bush, so I'm curious.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:06 p.m. CST

    what is the point of this movie?

    by Jack D. Ripper

    Bush supporters will loathe it and MAYBE his detractors will like it, but who cares about him anymore? His story--asshole unrepentantly ruins world--is pretty dull, actually, and McCain is the one we need to worry about now since he wants to take the reins. Oliver Stone sucks; JFK is the only good movie he made, practically on accident.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:07 p.m. CST

    How Dare You One-Dollar-Bob Me On Turning Thirty-Five, matalo!

    by mrbeaks

    And CarmillaVonDoom, the candidate for worst movie of '08 was THE SISTERHOOD OF THE TRAVELING PANTS 2. Posted the review early last week.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Crowe as Hicks!!

    by Fixthe Fernback

    Sorry to hijack the talkback but anyone else heard about Russell Crowe portraying Bill Hicks!!!1?? <P> Fingers crossed this aint just tabloid bull...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:11 p.m. CST

    Elizabeth Banks...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...call me.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:12 p.m. CST

    COMEDY HIT OF THE YEAR!

    by LaserPants

    I can't wait for what will undoubtedly be a totally hilariously awful trainwreck of Showgirls level proportions. But, of course, as said before, the true comedy, the true entertainment, will come from the psychopathic screaming head neocon punditrocracy who will no doubt guarentee this film makes huge bank on opening week with their equally hilarious self-righteous sputtering impotent rage as their movement continues to implode. Can't WAIT!!! Hahahahaha!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:14 p.m. CST

    Beaks Rebuttal

    by Jason B. Swaim

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niwtLPIWyXY OR http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itgtIAaX2mk&feature=related

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:15 p.m. CST

    I guess they have to shoot this green screen

    by ELGordo

    Since they would most likely be shot on sight at the real White House.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:16 p.m. CST

    too late MNG...

    by just pillow talk

    She's coming over to Pillow's place.<p>It's like that.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:16 p.m. CST

    Russell Crowe as Bill Hicks?!

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Very interesting. I have to say though that he is too old, too big, and too Australian. That being said, Hicks would probably love it.<P>Crowe's first screen-test must be a convincing telling of the "Your Children Aren't Special / Ye Ol' Gray Gym Sock" routine...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:17 p.m. CST

    JPT!

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Howdy! Hey, did you see that Jeff Albertson got canned?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:18 p.m. CST

    no, I did not!

    by just pillow talk

    Happy happy joy joy!!!!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Bad President

    by NiceGuyEddie19

    Starring Harvey Keitel. That would be good.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:19 p.m. CST

    JPT - check it...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    http://tinyurl.com/6dcrcw

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:20 p.m. CST

    Oct. 7

    by ciroslive

    ciroslive turns 28. A life not misunderestimated, just wasted...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:21 p.m. CST

    KILL ALL REPUBLICANS!!!

    by HoboCode

    Can we argue now?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:21 p.m. CST

    President Nero Oedipus Rex Caligula: The Movie

    by LaserPants

    Thats the subliminal title. Also: WORST PRESIDENT EVER.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:23 p.m. CST

    Oh Stone!

    by Saltoner

    I like Oliver Stone and Josh Brolin, but at this point the movie seems already out dated. With the election mere weeks away, Moore's Fahrenheit 911 and the countless, amazing PBS shows about the debacle that is George W., a documentary style is far more engaging and more entertaining than a movie about the man.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:24 p.m. CST

    HoboCode

    by Tacoloft

    If all republicans are lawyers then I guess it's ok.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:26 p.m. CST

    You Can't Kill Republicans

    by LaserPants

    Like vampires, they are already dead. Instead, we have to exorcise their demons and send back to the hell they spawned from. <br><br>Btw, isn't it weird how Jesus' worldview is actually much more in line with your average liberal progressive than your average right wing neocon? Ironic! SO if there is an actual Jesus, guess who's goin in the fire! Yup! Thats right neocon fundies, YOU. Hahahahaha!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:26 p.m. CST

    The real trailer

    by Doc_Hudson

    looks better.....hopefully this speech and others are just talking points...and this movie isn't 3 hours because of them.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:27 p.m. CST

    I love it...

    by just pillow talk

    Too bad that pompous asshole will probably be back, but I really like how the comic guys handled him. Kudos to them. And to bug for banning him. Muchas gracias for the link MNG.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:30 p.m. CST

    LaserPants

    by HoboCode

    But as a nonbeliever you'll be right htere with them. Doh! See ya there, playa!

  • This foregone conclusion that a Dem will be sitting in the White House, may be premature.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:32 p.m. CST

    Attn: ccchhhrrriiisssm, kevinwillis, other assorted douchebags.

    by HoboCode

    Fuck off.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:32 p.m. CST

    HEY NODE

    by Xiphos_2

    I just became a Repubublican five minutes ago. Care to try?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:33 p.m. CST

    skimn

    by just pillow talk

    The only forgone conclusion is that we all lose no matter which buffoon wins.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:34 p.m. CST

    Can we get back to talking about

    by ArcadianDS

    movies that more than 200 people plan to see?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:35 p.m. CST

    Xiphos.

    by HoboCode

    What happened in the last 5 minutes? Karzai become a Democrat?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:36 p.m. CST

    If Bush (w/his Harvard MBA w/honors) is dumb...

    by ccchhhrrriiisssm

    ...then Oliver Stone is immensibly dumber! Of course, liberals can't understand such gross ignorance! They think that if they repeat it often enough...then some people are stupid enough to believe it. <p>Just look at BringingSexyBack! He even believes his own lies! lol </p>

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:38 p.m. CST

    Yawn......

    by CrazyGnome

    This movie is the equivalent of a 5 year old crying. Life isn't fair....., stop bitching and let's move this country forward. I am ready to follow Obama, I don't want to waste time looking back. This movie won't do well because it is a hate movie. Republicans are not the problem, Capitalism is. I am no commie, but unless some political party has a solution for greed, then how are things supposed to get better.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:39 p.m. CST

    I LIKE THIS BEAKS GUY

    by BringingSexyBack

    He's a keeper. <p> And I don't read comics (anymore) but I just might so I can follow what appears to be some fun talkbacks over there in comicbook land. Who the hell gets banned talking about comics? Cripes!!!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:39 p.m. CST

    JPT

    by skimn

    Nicely said sir.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:39 p.m. CST

    Awwww, HoboCode...

    by ccchhhrrriiisssm

    ...are you afraid that someone might invade your own hyper-liberal fairy tale of a bubble? <p>Thank God that McCain is now LEADING the dick named Obama in one poll by 5 pts!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:41 p.m. CST

    SHUT UP CHRISSM

    by BringingSexyBack

    Don't change the subject, that being your lie and deception about being black. You're a disgrace to white people. If I could ban you from the white race, I would. <p> As it is, you're facing imminent banning from the talkbacks for your despicable charade. <p> Own up, and do it soon.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:41 p.m. CST

    Bush's MBA...

    by BackRiverCatfish

    ...really helped him run three businesses into the ground along with the US economy. I love how consevatives trash Ivy League schools except when it suits there idiotic arguments.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:42 p.m. CST

    George Bush is evil!

    by The Biomind

    And he has a small dick! Also it's long proven that he is not the son, but the clone of the former president bush! Now, it all makes sense!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:44 p.m. CST

    there = their

    by BackRiverCatfish

    and McCain is no upgrade from W.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:44 p.m. CST

    The problem with America Ferrera and Ugly Betty is...

    by iamnicksaicnsn

    that she's actually ugly. In all the other iterations (at least the one they showed on Univision) the woman who plays Ugly Betty is actually really really hot underneath all the bad-hair-dos and glasses and braces. America is just a fat ugly latin cow.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:45 p.m. CST

    MBA

    by HoboCode

    Sheeeeeeeeeeeeeet. Clay Davis probably had an MBA too. Pretty much anybody can get one provided their Daddy's richh enough and they lack scruples. And was thta before or after his barely C average at Yale and his desertion from the ANG?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:46 p.m. CST

    WWIII coming soon...

    by BackRiverCatfish

    ...thanks to President McInsane.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:47 p.m. CST

    Cringeworthy

    by F-1000

    The short trailer for this movie looked great, but Brolin giving that speech looks like one of those overwrought, caricature (bad) impressions of Bush right before the comic shouts: LIVE FROM NEW YORK, IT'S SATURDAY NIGHT!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:47 p.m. CST

    McCain is leading becasue...

    by HoboCode

    there hasn't been a debate yet. The moment McCain's PTSD, senility, and inability to stand for more than 30 minutes are exposed on national television watch how well he does in the polls.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:48 p.m. CST

    One problem: Josh Brolin actually looks sort of...

    by FlickaPoo

    ...manly and tough...so the cowboy swagger seems sort of convincing. When the "real" W. struts around with his hands out like a gunfighter and talks all tough he just sounds like a ridiculous douche...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:49 p.m. CST

    FlickaPoo

    by HoboCode

    lol.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:50 p.m. CST

    I still want an Oliver Stone Clinton movie

    by Samuel Fulmer

    Talk about dramatic potential! Kathy Griffen for Paula Jones.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:50 p.m. CST

    McCain actually isn't crazy, just stupid...

    by BackRiverCatfish

    ...he graduated 394 out of 399 at Annapolis.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:51 p.m. CST

    "Stone is immensibly dumber"

    by BringingSexyBack

    That's what we call a Chrissmism, folks.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:51 p.m. CST

    Does McCain wear Boxers or Briefs?

    by Samuel Fulmer

    Depends.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:52 p.m. CST

    Obama went to Harvard Chhrrriiisssmm

    by BackRiverCatfish

    he must be smart.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:52 p.m. CST

    "BUT FROM MY POINT OF VIEW THE DEMOCRATS ARE EVIL!"

    by BringingSexyBack

    That's what some of you sound like.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:54 p.m. CST

    I want to see Oliver Stone's "McCain"

    by fastcars

    Be thrilled by John McCain's torture scenes! Be dazzled as John McCain leaves his wife for a beer heiress after she gets maimed in a car accident! Be inspired by John McCain's presidential run in 2000? Be shocked and horrified by who John McCain becomes in order to become the nominee in 2008! And laugh youself silly as John McCain calls his *new* wife a trollopy cunt! Andy Rooney IS...McCain.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:54 p.m. CST

    say whaaaa?

    by Bouncy X

    i probably just missed something in the other comments but, america ferrera is ugly but the woman who plays ugly betty is hot under all the makeup? ummm, they're the same person.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:57 p.m. CST

    I HOPE MCCAIN PICKS LIEBERMAN OR RIDGE FOR VEEP

    by BringingSexyBack

    They're both very well suited for the nomination.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 2:58 p.m. CST

    Bob Dole vs. Jimmy Carter

    by Samuel Fulmer

    Isn't that really who these two guys running most resemble. The only difference is that both Dole and Carter were a lot more qualified. Not saying Dole would've been a good president, and we all know the mess that was Carter's presidency, but McCain the "war hero" and Obama the "savior" have very similar quailities to those two. Neither one is a particularly strong candidate.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3 p.m. CST

    I've never seen anyone schill as much as Lieberman.

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Watching him gee-golly-gosh all over McCain is embarrassing.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:02 p.m. CST

    LIEBERMAN HAS BEEN SUPPORTIVE OF THE IRAQ INVASION

    by BringingSexyBack

    from the start. And creating the Department of Homeland Security was his idea. He'd make a fine VP candidate for the Republican Party.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:03 p.m. CST

    WHAT HAPPENED TO CHRISSM?

    by BringingSexyBack

    He just ... disappeared.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:03 p.m. CST

    Hobocode

    by Jared

    McCain handed Obama his ass at the Saddleback forum this past wkd...so much so that various bloviating moonbat libs on HuffingtonPost and Daily Kos have resorted to accusing of McCain of cheating. McCain will do just fine in the debates.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:03 p.m. CST

    Hobocode

    by Jared

    McCain handed Obama his ass at the Saddleback forum this past wkd...so much so that various bloviating moonbat libs on HuffingtonPost and Daily Kos have resorted to accusing of McCain of cheating. McCain will do just fine in the debates.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:03 p.m. CST

    Both guys are beholden to the same corporate

    by Samuel Fulmer

    interests. Read the new Rolling Stone will Downey on the cover. There's an article by Matt Taibi that makes it clear exactly who McCain and Obama really care about.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:04 p.m. CST

    I fucking hate Lieberman...

    by HoboCode

    or Loserman as the Republicans called him before they liked him. Hated him even more after Recount. Fucking cocksucker.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:04 p.m. CST

    Conservatives always disappear when their argument gets destroie

    by BackRiverCatfish

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:05 p.m. CST

    I've said it all along Obama needs Hillary Clinton!

    by ganymede3010

    That's the only way for Obama to circumvent the low road campaign John McCain is running. He needs someone who's spineless, ruthless, who'll say or do anything to ascertain victory. And that person is Hillary Rodham Clinton. Biden is to old, Bayh is to boring, and Tim Kaine is to new. Now McCain is 5 points ahead, Barak needs to swallow his pride, hold his nose, and pull the trigger on naming Clinton his VP.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:05 p.m. CST

    Lieberman/Senator Palpatine

    by Samuel Fulmer

    They look like the same guy! Ol' Joe might shoot force bolts at you if you make him mad.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:05 p.m. CST

    I like McCain...I think he should run to be my Grandpa...

    by FlickaPoo

    ...seriously...he'd be running unopposed. As of last fall I'm fresh out of grandparents, and I think he'd make a fine replacement.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:06 p.m. CST

    Well, Ashok0...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...everybody knows that the Republican Party keeps taking advantage of middle-America while watching the country's economy and global standing crash and burn.<P>I'm not sure why your party is more important than your country for folks like you and ccchhhrrriiisssm.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:07 p.m. CST

    Tenenbaum

    by HoboCode

    Please. You mean the religous forum sponsored my a mega-church charlatan? Shocking that Obama didn't do well there.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:07 p.m. CST

    Oh, and because of McCain's heroic service...

    by FlickaPoo

    ...to his country we should all pitch in and buy him lap-dances for life. He's that cool. Just keep him away from the Oval Office please...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:07 p.m. CST

    TENENBAUM - I DISAGREE ON THE SADDLEBACK ASSESSMENT

    by BringingSexyBack

    Rick Warren and several esteemed members of his church said that McCain was too obviously pandering and they didn't trust that he actually believe in the things he said. <p> Whereas with Obama, they felt that he was being sincere, and in the face of tough questions, his religious conviction and devotion to common causes (such as helping the poor and unfortunate) was undeniable. <p>

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:07 p.m. CST

    George W. Bush's Gift To The World:

    by TroutMaskReplicant

    The need for American involvement in the region between Israel and India to ensure its continued stability. Oh look, Pakistan's dictator has been deposed.

  • So what exactly is John McCain going to do for our country besides drill for oil offshore? What's his plan for improving infrastructure, schools, jobs, home sales, etc.? Or is he just going to listen to ABBA's "Dancing Queen" all day in between rants of telling dumbass spiteful Clintonites they can't have abortions even if they were raped, victims of incest, or are in danger from the pregnancy?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:09 p.m. CST

    Obama should get credit for going into the lions den...

    by BackRiverCatfish

    McCain had home field advantage.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:10 p.m. CST

    Funny watching this site

    by JackRabbitSlim

    criticize others for failings in grammar. I'm just saying.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:12 p.m. CST

    Nixon - Hopkins, Bush - Brolin. Tough gig.

    by G100

    After rewatching Nixon it becomes pretty clear that Brolin will have to pull all the stops out if Stone has him carrying as much weight as Hopkins did in Nixon.<p> <p>Like Nixon I'm betting some of the ancillary characters may turn in some truly great performances but Brolin has to BE Bush not some superficial SNL sketch.<p> <p>Hopkins did an incredible job with Nixon considering he really doesn't look too Nixonesque when all is said and done.<p> <p>I also hope Stone doesn't fracture the timeline quite as much in this as he did in Nixon. Though since the timeline doesn't go back as far as Nixon does there will be less somewhat distracting b&W cuts in this for a start.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:13 p.m. CST

    I don't think that getting shot down over Vietnam...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...and getting tortured for the next few years is reason enough to make John McCain the next President. If anything, it makes him look like he lacks serious judgment when dodging bullets and avoiding capture = two things I hold in very high esteem for the office of the US Presidency.<P>What? Did I say something wrong?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:14 p.m. CST

    GAIUS ARE YOU STILL CAMPAIGNING FOR MOD?

    by BringingSexyBack

    I cast my vote in your direction, good sir.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:16 p.m. CST

    Who do you want to lead the country?

    by HoboCode

    When asked at what point a person is a person...<p> McCain: "At the moment of conception." <p> Overly simplistic. Pandering. Overtly rigid.<p> Obama: "Whether you are looking at it from a theological or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity is above my pay grade." <p> Thoughtful. Humble. Intelligent.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:16 p.m. CST

    The Obama Celebrity Arugement is funny

    by Samuel Fulmer

    coming from the Republican attack machine considering Ronald Reagan and Ahnold. I guess they forgot about those two.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:17 p.m. CST

    McCain will be our next president.

    by uberman

    Demos are trying to hard to appeal to the middle and republicans. Obama is reversing himself all over the place in order to appease the right. Same mistake Gore and Kerry did. The right plays HARDBALL. Character assasination works-just look at the latest polls. They are going to continue to pain Obama as a 'stranger', a potentially dangerous outsider with (wink wink) ties to MUSLIMS!!!! If Obama is even to have a chance, he needs to stick to his guns and savage every attack on him, expose the right and make a mockery of his critics. And he really is gonna need Hillary, cause you don't take a knife into a gun fight.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:19 p.m. CST

    Funny how Paris and Britney...

    by HoboCode

    have disappeared from the celebrity ads all of a sudden. Think somebody got a call from the Hiltonites?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:20 p.m. CST

    Hillary.

    by HoboCode

    Damn you guys almost have me convinced.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:20 p.m. CST

    FLUFF PIECE

    by MelvintheMopBoy

    Back to you, Mary.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:21 p.m. CST

    MCCAIN WAS EPISCOPALIAN ... UNTIL HE DECIDED TO RUN FOR PREZ

    by BringingSexyBack

    Upon Karl Rove's advice, he "became" a Baptist. This sham, this ruse ... this flip-flopping on faith ... did not escape Rick Warren's notice, and it was not appreciated. <p> Pretending to be something he's not ... reminds me of a certain someone named Chrissm.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:21 p.m. CST

    BSB - I'm still campaigning, indeed!

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    MNG for MOD:<P>"He'll make winners of us all!"<P>I'm Mr. Nice Gaius and I approve this message.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:22 p.m. CST

    McCain in the prison camp

    by Samuel Fulmer

    You ever think he switched teams, you know, had a Barney Frank moment?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:24 p.m. CST

    Bill Pullman for president

    by Samuel Fulmer

    "Today we celebrate our independance day!"

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:24 p.m. CST

    Sort of sad really...I loved McCain way back in...

    by FlickaPoo

    ...2000 when he ran for the first time against W. Have always liked all of his Daily Show appearances too......now he just seems determined to spend all his time sucking right wing dick...I thought he would be cooler than that.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:25 p.m. CST

    ...maybe I don't want him as my Grandpa after all.

    by FlickaPoo

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:26 p.m. CST

    SEND ME BACK TO HELL! I DARE YE!

    by PirateEmery

    In the meantime, I'm going to sire me some more vampire conservatives.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:26 p.m. CST

    I THOUGHT "POOTY-POOT" PUTIN WAS BUSH'S FRIEND

    by BringingSexyBack

    Why all of a sudden are we on the brink of a new Cold War? Insane. Lucifer truly is ruling this world.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:27 p.m. CST

    The McCain of 2000 is the McCain of 2008

    by Samuel Fulmer

    He's just not hiding the pandering anymore. Conservative Maverick is the ultimate oxymoron. Kind of like being a Liberal Traditionalist.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:27 p.m. CST

    Do we really need to relive the last eight years...

    by The Eskimo

    ...I feel bad enough that I'm partly responsible for this.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:29 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by PirateEmery

    Obama was a Muslim before his wife told him to convert to Christianity so that he could run for office.<p> I didn't want to bring it up, because it's more of this "secret Muslim" bullshit, but I felt it necessary to show Obama's side of this "converting to a certain religion based on politics."

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:29 p.m. CST

    THE SISTERHOOD OF THE TRAVELING PANTIES

    by Orionsangels

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:30 p.m. CST

    Why we're on the brink of WWII: Two Words

    by Samuel Fulmer

    Preemptive Strike. Once we started doing it, the dominos began to tumble. Russia didn't stand up to us when we attacked their buddy Iraq, now they expect us to do the same with them attacking Georgia.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:30 p.m. CST

    PIRATEEMERY - I HADN'T HEARD THAT

    by BringingSexyBack

    Can you send me a link to where you read this? I can do the same for you.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:31 p.m. CST

    Hillary has to slap down the bitter holdouts at Conv.

    by G100

    When she delivers her speech at the Convention Hillary can't equivocate in the slightest.<p> <p>There is stil a rump of very bitter Hillary support that could hand McCain a largew chunk of voters if they continue to try and refight the primaries.<p> <p>Hillary's speech will be almost as important as Obama's and might overshadow the new VEEPS too.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:32 p.m. CST

    MND FOR MOD

    by BringingSexyBack

    "Do not fuck with me." <p> Paid for by Friends of MNG.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:33 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by PirateEmery

    Sure, I'm looking for where I heard that. Be back in a sec.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:35 p.m. CST

    PirateEmery

    by HoboCode

    You fucking lying cunt. There is ZERO truth to that statement you dumb redneck fuck.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:35 p.m. CST

    What is MOD?

    by HoboCode

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:37 p.m. CST

    There ya go...

    by PirateEmery

    http://tinyurl.com/6xm7xt<p> Suck on that HoboCode. Suck it long... and suck it hard.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:37 p.m. CST

    "at what point a person is a person..."

    by skimn

    For both parties..<p>When they start paying taxes..<p>Don't forget to tip your waitstaff..

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:38 p.m. CST

    Everything is true...Oz is over the rainbow...

    by Darth Macchio

    ...and you...you're meat for the beast.<p>But...I've killed people!<p>Hahahhah....who told you that?<p>Why?<P>Because he LIED asshole!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:38 p.m. CST

    GIVE ME THE WHOLE URL, PLEASE

    by BringingSexyBack

    Not that I don't trust your tinyurl ...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:38 p.m. CST

    Missle Defense Shield in Poland

    by Samuel Fulmer

    I wonder which of Bush's buddies is getting rich off of that one? I guess they think it's a good idea to bring back the cold war for the good of military contractors everywhere.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:39 p.m. CST

    MOD IS MODERATOR

    by BringingSexyBack

    As in civilian talkback patrol with ban privs.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:39 p.m. CST

    And may I say...

    by PirateEmery

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with any religion. It's the cover up that I'm not too keen on.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:41 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by PirateEmery

    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60559<p> But it would have been fun to do a rick roll...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:41 p.m. CST

    re:"Who do you want to lead the country?"

    by IAmJack'sUserID

    When asked at what point a person is a person...<p></p> McCain: "At the moment of conception." <p></p> "Overly simplistic. Pandering. Overtly rigid."<p></p> You mean taking a stance on his beliefs? Man, what is he thinking? <p></p> <p></p> Obama: "Whether you are looking at it from a theological or a scientific perspective, answering that question with specificity is above my pay grade." <p></p> Thoughtful. Humble. Intelligent.<p></p> You mean pandering by not taking a side thus avoiding offending someone?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:43 p.m. CST

    So...who's Luc and who's Charlie Brown?

    by Darth Macchio

    Which one of you is the dupe going for the kick and which one of you is the fucking asswipe pulling the ball away yet again? Is Lucy the winner when she fools the moron Charlie Brown for the ten millionth time? Or is Charlie Brown the winner for trying no matter the fact that he knows she's going to pull the ball way?<p>Outside of your comfort zone...does anybody even give a shit?<p>These political TB's can be fun like watching a multi-car pile up accident can be fun but I've never once seen anybody go, "Ok, you're right and I'm wrong. I stand corrected."<p>Evidence doesn't matter. Not even court testimony matters to you guys. There is no truth. Truth us dead.<p>You guys are just piling the dirt on the casket at this point, no?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Granted...

    by PirateEmery

    That forum was not exactly Obama's venue: it was an auditorium full of bible-thumpers. So, you really can't blame him for trying to avoid the question.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:46 p.m. CST

    Darth Macchio

    by PirateEmery

    Actually, you're wrong. Check back in one of the previous political TB's this week and I remember admitting to Samsquanch that he was right and I was wrong.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Also...

    by PirateEmery

    I've been doing a little background check on my "source." It seems to be a conservative news website. Keep that in mind.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:47 p.m. CST

    AHH ... THE WORLD NET DAILY

    by BringingSexyBack

    The cyber-bird cage liner. Nice. <p> Here're my links: <p> http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070917/mccain-i-m-baptist-not-episcopalian.htm <p> http://www.suntimes.com/news/elections/560477,CST-NWS-mccain17.article

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Ahh...well then, Pirate...

    by Darth Macchio

    I stand corrected. Correction appreciated!<p>

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:48 p.m. CST

    "Why we're on the brink of WWII: Two Words"

    by SpyGuy

    Pearl Harbor?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:48 p.m. CST

    PirateEmery...ELEMENTARY SCHOOL??!!!!...

    by FlickaPoo

    ...are you fucking kidding? I grew up overseas too...I went to public school, which in that particular country was Catholic. We had to say a Hail Mary before class and walked to the church down the road on certain holidays...a priest even came in on Saturday mornings to teach theology stuff. That doesn't make me Catholic though, it just means that that's the school my parents sent me to...if I had my way I would have been home watching all the naked girls on suntan lotion ads that used to run on TV in that wonderful land. You my friend are either confused of a moron. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and call you "confused".

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:51 p.m. CST

    PirateEmery = What's wrogn with America.

    by HoboCode

    What a pitiful ignorant fuck you are. This article, from a conservative TABLOID no less, never even mentions Michelle Obama, and only insinuates Obama went to mosque as a child anyway. Pathetic dude. Really pathetic.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:51 p.m. CST

    I meant to say World War Z

    by Samuel Fulmer

    I mean World War III. As Belushi said, "Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, Hell No!"

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:55 p.m. CST

    Brolin's voice...

    by Titus05

    damn Josh Brolin nailed the voice of Bush...sounds too good...almost like they dubbed the real GWB's voice in there...still not gonna watch the movie but had to give props to the voice!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:57 p.m. CST

    Saving us from space aliens...

    by Darth Macchio

    I don't know about you but I look to one person and one person only to save us from space aliens.<p><p><p>Gary Busey.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 3:58 p.m. CST

    Suck on that PirateEmery.

    by HoboCode

    Suck it long... and suck it hard.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4 p.m. CST

    You know what's funny?

    by Darth Macchio

    I think that movie Megaforce is actually based on the life of President Skippy Maroon. Or is it Rip Torn? He'll flip ya. Flip ya for real.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:02 p.m. CST

    Node you're a fucking coward

    by Xiphos_2

    I switched my registration to Republican so you would come and try to kill me or are you being a pussy? You wrote it here's your chance.<p> Here I'll help you gain some back bone. Marxist-Leninist theory is for cunt rags that are facist. Stalin was a mass murdering scum bag. There I just wiped my ass on your two favorite things in the world.<p>Now did I get your half incher up? Come and try and kill me you fucking loud mouth cocksucker. Oh wait I forgot you're hiding on a message board. Sure as shit stinks you don't say jack to anybody in real life.<p>Let's see if you have the sack to call me all the names you've been to afraid to call me you fucking pussy. Here's your chance, I'm going to bed say whatever you want coward.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:02 p.m. CST

    aha thanks for the quick reply

    by CarmillaVonDoom

    And thanks for classing up the joint lately. ☺

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:05 p.m. CST

    Xiphos, WTF?

    by HoboCode

    Having a bad day? Probably since our president has you in a shithole right now. I thought we were cool? I was just kidding about the kill all republicans shit. Damn. Take a pill.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:06 p.m. CST

    PirateEmery

    by bluetunehead

    Really? You're referencing where he went to school as a kid as proof that he converted to Christianity for political reasons? Come on. Do you still see the world the way you did when you were 8? Show me something that says he wasn't Christian until a few years ago. THEN I'll pay attention. Leave the kids stuff out of this.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:06 p.m. CST

    Darth Macchio - regarding Gary Busey...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Here is some classic Busey wisdom:<P>"You know what FEAR stands for? It stands for False Evidence Appearing Real. It's the darkroom where the Devil develops his negatives."<P>Priceless.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:14 p.m. CST

    MNG that settles it

    by Bloo

    I'm voting for Gary Busey for President<P>can you imagine the tounge lashing he would give Putin

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:14 p.m. CST

    I just don't see...

    by SunTzu77

    ...this film doing anything special.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:22 p.m. CST

    Bloo

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I have a feeling that Gary Busey may be the only man that could scare the living daylights out of Putin.<P>He's quite intimidating with that crazy hair, those chompers, and his ruthlessly gregarious philosophical musings.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:23 p.m. CST

    Further Wisdom From Gary Busey...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    "You know what the Bible is? Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth!"<P>He could even carry the Evangelical vote!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:33 p.m. CST

    ive said it before and ill say it again

    by chipps

    one of the goonies is in the white house!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:35 p.m. CST

    Calling Barack a secret Muslim is like...

    by SirLoin

    Calling the pope a secret Nazi because he was enrolled in Hitler Youth (compulsory for all German kids during the war). When you're a kid you do what adults tell you.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:44 p.m. CST

    McCain sticks his dick into Obama-rama-ding-dongs ass...

    by Banzai Rootskibango

    ...and spews McCain Juice all over his butt once he's finished. Just saw it on the news...by about 5 to 7 points. Does it matter in the long run from here till November? Only time will tell.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 4:57 p.m. CST

    George W is a Goonie

    by Grammaton Cleric Binks

    Well, I think we already knew that.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 5:21 p.m. CST

    Gary Busey can speak Braile...

    by Darth Macchio

    Gary Busey can slam a revolving door.<p><p><p>Gary told me once, while drinking a large frosty glass of milk, "Darth, do you know what Milk is?"<p>I responded, "No."<p>Gary then said, "Milk is Morons In Love with Kentucky."<p>I, with a puzzled look, responded, "But Gary, milk is spelled m-i-l-k, Milk. There's no 'w' in the word at all."<p>And you know what he said then? This was one of the weirdest moments of my life, I swear. He looked at the ground and then at the sky for a few moments before turning to me. He raised his hand towards me but did not point at me with his fingers. The gesture wasn't threatening; merely the Busey method of capturing complete attention. He said, simply, "What in the god damn hell does double-u have to do with it?"<p>I elected to remain quiet, figuring the question was rhetorical anyway.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 5:25 p.m. CST

    not bush

    by chipps

    brolin

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 5:29 p.m. CST

    he looks more like Billy Bob Thornton than he does Bush

    by Magic Rat

    or he looks like Billy Bob Thornton playing Bush, one or the other.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 5:32 p.m. CST

    "The Day Before Beaks Turns Thirty-Five"

    by TheNorthlander

    Somewhere in Hollywood, Roland Emerich and Dean Devlin just went "Damn! That's a great title."

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 5:34 p.m. CST

    political debates at AICN

    by zacdilone

    akin to running Crysis on a 386.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 5:36 p.m. CST

    Holy shit he sounds exactly like GWB

    by Jopapa

    And Oliver Stone is still an unintelligent douchebag making another unintelligent douchebag look like an unintelligent douchebag to other unintelligent douchebags.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 5:38 p.m. CST

    Hey!, the BustedTees girl ads are on the....

    by FlickaPoo

    Drudge Report site......(speaking of politics...)

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 5:58 p.m. CST

    Debating Republicans Vs. Democrats...

    by WhinyNegativeBitch

    ...Is like debating anal rape and sodomy. There is no fucking difference. You are just a fucking pond of tax money to them. Plus its not like your votes count for shit anyway. Back to the issue at hand...Good impersonation of the voice pattern, but Brolin looks too much like a man, not enough like a decrepid old tittering fool. By the way, for the Stone haters, he sure may have made some incredibly bland movies in the last ten years, but from the mid 80's to the mid 90's he was on a hot streak few U.S. directors have ever matched. And he's always capable of turning in a..."professional"...watchable film. Even if its boring as hell, like Alexander or the plane crashy squashed firemen flick.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 6 p.m. CST

    I don't get it; who is the intended audience for this movie?

    by Orbots Commander

    Right off the bat, we know Bush fans won't go see it, and from the postings on this forum, Bush haters don't care for this movie either. So again, who is Stone targeting with this movie? Or is just one huge masturbatory excercise for him? Honestly, the guy hasn't made a good movie since JFK, from way back in the early 1990's. Jeez, I had just graduated from high school then; time flies.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 6:01 p.m. CST

    It's the Mission Accomplished speech!

    by Anakin Whoopass

    The green screen will be replaced with the deck of the aircraft carrier. Also note the presidential lectern should be blue but is black probably for the same reason Artoo Detoo's blue panels were black when they shot Luke's X-wing cockpit scenes. I didn't watch the whole video but it would make sense to shoot footage for any outdoor Bush speeches at the same time since the green screen setup would be the same.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 6:05 p.m. CST

    I have always had this vision of what the Streisand house is lik

    by Cotton McKnight

    I always imagine there being a big cage for James and Josh. And whenever Barbra wishes for one or the other to do a project, she lets them out. Usually for something political.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 6:07 p.m. CST

    Orbots Commander

    by Cotton McKnight

    It's for no one- it's a vanity project. It's made for Oliver Stone, James/Josh/Barbra Streisand and all of her friends. No more, no less. I doubt that anyone beyond the studio even cares about what kind of money it makes. They just want people to see it. Stone would release it for free if he could.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 6:19 p.m. CST

    Don't be part of a political party

    by Orionsangels

    Don't be a biased scumbag! down with parties! down with hannity! down with moore!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 6:26 p.m. CST

    Little help...

    by codymr

    Didn't Brolin's dad play Pres Reaga at some point?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 6:29 p.m. CST

    This is going to be the GREATEST FILM EVER!!

    by SkidMarkedUndies

    Josh Brolin IS GEORGE W. BUSH! He hit it PERFECTLY. Wow. I can't wait!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 7:07 p.m. CST

    Brolin Memory

    by spartacus728

    Goonies never say die.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 7:10 p.m. CST

    "Movie TBs are NOT the forum to discuss religion."

    by Prossor

    correction, political movie TBs may have discussions of religion, amongst other things, namely TALKING ABOUT WHATEVER THE FUCK COMES TO MIND. squirrel. paper. tits. pencil. onion.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 7:13 p.m. CST

    I'll admit....

    by SunTzu77

    mccain's ad is clever <p> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSpcxkKlEFA

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 7:20 p.m. CST

    I think Obama's gonna lose...

    by blackmantis

    That's my intuition right now. He's playing right into the old Republican playbook, painting your opponent as a wishy-washy, elitist liberal and your candidate as the strong, decisive warrior. Obama's answers at saddleback made me want to throw something at the TV. The abortion issue is, "above my pay grade." I can't think of a worse possible answer to that question if I tried.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 7:26 p.m. CST

    mantis I agree...

    by SunTzu77

    I'm not really for either one of the candidates...but I did watch the saddleback interviews... and mccain's answers seemed deep...his greatest failure being his first marriage, etc...while obama..just gave some bland youthful indescretion(s) spill.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 7:37 p.m. CST

    On a different note...

    by SunTzu77

    Talk about censorship... <p> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jewel_of_Medina

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 7:39 p.m. CST

    yeah the retards are in control

    by Rupee88

    reelecting George W four years ago and now they are going to put McCain in there to fuck them and all of us some more....very sad but a good reminder that avg IQ is 100.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 7:47 p.m. CST

    We need the Slack Jawed

    by Phategod2

    Without them where would NASCAR, Walmart, and Micheal Bay be.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 8:03 p.m. CST

    Elizabeth Banks...

    by ebonic_plague

    ...is way too hot to play the Stepford First Lady. Also, on a related note, go fuck yourself, chhhhrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiissssssssssmmmmmmmm.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 8:12 p.m. CST

    Pirate Emery-

    by Lobanhaki

    <br>Too bad Obama met his wife AFTER joining his church. Oh, and his father was an atheist.</br> <br>Oh, and whoever's citing that poll, there are others with Obama two or three points ahead.</br> <br>But to be honest with you all, even those positive polls don't mean shit. Obama has the lead in enough states to win by electoral votes.</br> <br>WhinyNegativeBitch-</br> <br>Eight years ago, a bunch of people thought there was no difference between Gore and Bush, Republicans and Democrats. Bush and the GOP took great pains over the better part of this decade to prove them wrong.</br> <br>My question to you is whether you've learned your lesson yet. Do you need another?</br>

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 8:28 p.m. CST

    jfk

    by chipps

    why do people continue to bang on about that clap trap. I LOVE platoon and both born on the 4th of july and wallstreet are good movies but jfk is just nonsense. So almost all of his major points have been discredited - especially the 'magic bullet theory' The back seat of the car was higher than the front seat, accounting for most of the in flight movement of the round , besides which, no it is not at all unusual for rounds to ricochet around. To me the most compelling thing is speed at which he fired the shots was unusually fast, but magic bullet is nonsense. the movie was clap trap.<p>the 'above my paygrade' answer was silly as well, lets face it, he wants to be president, he highest of pay grades.<p> also: http://tinyurl.com/5gubz6<p> obama's brother lives in a shanty town on a dollar a month. weird.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 9:09 p.m. CST

    Everything Oliver Stone does is shit.

    by Veraxus

    And I'm sure this will be no different.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 9:13 p.m. CST

    God

    by Phategod2

    People crack me up when it comes to religion in politics and such. I'll take a smart athiest over a dumb Christian any day. And I'm Agnostic.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 9:32 p.m. CST

    Ashok0 you asshat

    by BackRiverCatfish

    First off, JFK is good but not his best, Platoon, Born on the Fourth of July and Wall Street are better. Secondly, no one should take Bob Barr seriously after he ate Borat's wifes tit cheese.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 9:35 p.m. CST

    Queefer Bukkake

    by Phategod2

    When It comes to Christianity I have never agreed with anyone more.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 9:38 p.m. CST

    Other good Stone movies...

    by BackRiverCatfish

    ...but not better than JFK: Talk Radio, Salvador, Nixon, World Trade Center. Any Given Sunday was entertaining if mediocer.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 9:42 p.m. CST

    Try this!

    by redshirt

    Next time you are in an interview and you are asked a difficult question, answer "That is above my pay grade" Or for you younger readers, say that in class next time you are called on. I am curious to know what the result is... Barack was supposedly a law teacher. Would he have accepted that answer from one of his students? Plus he is pro infanticide, don't forget!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 9:45 p.m. CST

    infantcide ?

    by Phategod2

    Wow that has got to be the dumbest shit i've read in years.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:02 p.m. CST

    redshirt

    by SirLoin

    He said SPECIFICALLY in that fucking joke of an interview that he is against late term abortions - that's before the child is even born, you fuckwat. And God forbid he gives a nuanced, thoughtful answer to an issue that is anything but black and white. And what about all you Republicans that masturbate or use contraception? Isn't all that wasted sperm the potential for another human life? How would all you male neo-cons feel if the right to release your cum out of wedlock was revoked due to the "sanctity of life?"

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:03 p.m. CST

    supports infanticide. check.

    by samsquanch

    sooo... you're an idiot.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:04 p.m. CST

    PAY GRADE

    by BringingSexyBack

    It was the perfect answer to an impossibly subjective question. For McCain the panderer, it was a no-brainer. Conception. <p> For someone serious about leading a nation, the answer is to allude to the ongoing debate amongst both sides. <p> I'm sorry so many people were baffled by Obama, but after 8 years of Bush worship it's not like you've ever had to contend with an answer that challenged your thinking skills.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:05 p.m. CST

    yes phategod2

    by redshirt

    Infanticide, how else would you describe Obamas opposition to the born alive infant protection act? He was the only democrat who voted against it in the Illinois senate. He had no problem with leaving delivered babies to die by denying them health care. He tried to lie his way out of it and failed. His aides admitted as much. How else would you define that?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:07 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by redshirt

    Obama has an answer to the question, he just didn't want to say it. He took a cowards way out.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:10 p.m. CST

    well, I know why I won't be voting democrat this november

    by samsquanch

    THEIR CANDIDATE FUCKING EATS BABIES, THAT'S WHY. What a dick!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:11 p.m. CST

    I,for one, am proudly against the practice of baby eating.

    by samsquanch

    put that in your pipe and smoke it, liberals!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:14 p.m. CST

    REDSHIRT

    by BringingSexyBack

    I'm sure that's the way you saw it, but I simply disagree. Again, as SirLoin pointed out, his was a more detailed answer than the "pay grade" quote would have people believe. <p> Abortion's not a black and white issue, even among many Conservatives.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:16 p.m. CST

    I don't like abortion

    by samsquanch

    But I don't like the state telling women what they can do with their bodies more. So what does that make me?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:19 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by redshirt

    So why is McCain mocked for his answer? Many believe conception is when life begins, and not just on theological grounds. Abortion might be difficult, but knowing when life begins isn't. I'm an athiest, and I believe it begins at conception.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:19 p.m. CST

    ALTHOUGH I UNDERSTAND ABORTION TO BE AN ISSUE

    by BringingSexyBack

    near and dear to many Americans, my opinion is that it will continue to be exploited as a wedge issue. In the vast landscape of issues challenging the nation, this is right at the bottom of the list.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:20 p.m. CST

    hey redshirt

    by samsquanch

    how do you feel about capital punishment?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:22 p.m. CST

    Holy crap, samsquanch

    by redshirt

    I actually agree. I think abortion is wrong, but I don't see in the constitution where the state has the right to reach inside someones body. The law can't prevent you from harming yourself, be it drugs, booze, or abortion. Body sovereignty.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:25 p.m. CST

    Capital punishment

    by redshirt

    I'm all for it. Make it fast. Cut the endless appeals. Some acts are so horrific you give up your right to life by committing them.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:26 p.m. CST

    by huggerorange

    I cant stand W. and that video is making me not want to see the film..its giving off a bush-praising vibe. I thought there would be a miniscule chance i could go this movie if they approched it from a certain perspective..like the one that tells the truth and says bush is a war hungry fucking idiot...but,I guess we dont really need a movie to tell us that, since we're all living it right now.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:27 p.m. CST

    samsquanch-honest

    by j2talk

    I for one, don't believe in abortion, but I don't think that I should be able to tell anyone what they can or cannot do,it should remain a private, personal decision.If more politician stated there views like this instead of simply pro choice or pro life, they'd get more respect...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:28 p.m. CST

    it figures.

    by samsquanch

    So, you don't believe the state should have the right to tell women whether they can have an abortion or not, but when it comes to ENDING SOMEONES LIFE you think the state is the appropriate agency for making that decision. <p> Abortions bad, death penalty good? State sponsored murder is better than aborting an unborn fetus? Is it because babies are cuter? What?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:29 p.m. CST

    j2talk- well said.

    by samsquanch

    kudos.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:29 p.m. CST

    This Movie will be A Satire

    by HermesTrismestigus

    Honestly I'm not surprised, the movie seems like a lifetime flick. What would be all out ballsy is a pro Bush sympathetic film. The only bizarre thing I always see is that Bush is consistently called dumb, retarded, etc., so how is it possible that he's beat his enlightened hyper intelligent foes over and over on pretty much everything. Oh yes the voters are dumb, or the enlightened hyper intelligent folks went Full Retard when they should have pulled back.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:33 p.m. CST

    REDSHIRT

    by BringingSexyBack

    I appreciate your belief. My problem (not necessarily with you) is the attempt to simplify Obama's position by reducing his argument to the "pay grade" quote. That's such a disservice to the issue. <p> Look back at his long answer. He has a solution - one that would benefit BOTH sides. <p> To do what is necessary to reduce abortions. To recognize the problem of unwanted pregnancies and address it through education and available contraception. To make adoption a desirable alternative to abortion. See? A comprehensive solution to a complex issue that doesn't alienate either side (at least too much). <p>

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:36 p.m. CST

    Dude Redshirt, as a Christian you HAVE to be pro life and anti d

    by SirLoin

    Wasn't there a commandment saying "Thou shalt not kill?" In the Catholic church we are against the death penalty, you must be part of one of those self-righteous Protestant fundamentalist sects that would rather condemn than help. And PS - I fully understand that some people believe that life begins at conception, as I've struggled with the issue myself, but also I realize that not everyone has the privilege of being brought up rich, white, and ignorant. Religious conservatives (I have the distinct hardship of being a religious liberal), are so focused on just having the baby be born, but don't give two diddly-fucks what happens afterward. Mama's a crack addict? So what, you're born, count your days until you're institutionalized or a welfare drain. Raped? Molested by your dad? So what, have your baby born out of shame and violence. Tell the kid the stork brought him home. Privileged white girl got drunk and didn't use a condom? Fuck you, you stupid girl, but I still don't have the right to tell you what grows in your own body. Sorry, I get carried away.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:37 p.m. CST

    Samsquanch

    by redshirt

    Well, so much for meeting of the minds. Do the words innocent or guilty mean anything to you? You are an idiot, I said I DO NOT think the state has the right to regulate abortion. The state DOES have the right to punish people for their actions. Also, the death penalty isn't "good", however it is necessary, just as you would put down a vicious dog, so must some "people" be put down. How can you seriously equate killing an unborn baby with executing a vicious killer?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:37 p.m. CST

    redshirt ur an asshole

    by JaredParker3

    redshirt i think u need to go smoke some grass and loosen up maybe itll take that stick out of ur ass

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:40 p.m. CST

    the thing about believing in capital punishment...

    by samsquanch

    once you get over the editorial scare stories about the killer pedophiles and remorseless murderers,you have to acknowledge that the state is fallible, and that innocent people are put to death all the time. Unless you honestly believe that the justice system never makes mistakes, its unconscionable to support capital punishment. this is a simple argument, but a very powerful one. And for those of you that believe that the deterrent power of CP justifies a bit of innocent death, imagine it's you in the fucking electric chair, or your wife, or your kid brother, or your best friend. Not quite so easy to be flippant, is it?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:42 p.m. CST

    BringingSexyBack

    by SirLoin

    Exactly. If we finally address the classicism and the inherent economic racism that goes on in this country, and provide the underprivileged with education, healthcare, and affordable contraceptives, then we might see a real dip in abortions. But most fundamentalists would rather sit in their ivory towers and say "Close your legs," without the slightest knowledge of the cultural mores and standards and inherent misogyny that goes on in a lot of minority cultures.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:42 p.m. CST

    WHOEVER'S SCORING THIS VOLLEYBALL GAME

    by BringingSexyBack

    must be drunk.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:44 p.m. CST

    SirLoin

    by chipps

    there are 1.1 billion catholics. that represents a lot of different views on the meaning of the bible and hence there are many orders. I have no firm view on the death penalty (although i lean away from it). Catholics certainly can rationalize killing though, one author who does is Augustine.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:44 p.m. CST

    KERRI WALSH HAS A SERIOUS WEDGIE

    by BringingSexyBack

    Nice!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:45 p.m. CST

    Redshirt

    by SirLoin

    Because you're a Christian, and you don't believe in murder. Murder sanctioned by a judge and jury is still murder. And you are playing God if you deem someone worthy of death. "Do not judge, lest ye be judged." This is the thing that kills me about you guys, it's a fundamental paradox that you just accept.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:48 p.m. CST

    i really don't see cp as being a real deterent

    by chipps

    think about murder for example. there is cold blooded and hot blooded murder. cold blooded murder is planned and one expects to get away with it. hot blooded murder occurs in a frenzy without thought to the consequences. cp does not seem as if it would deter these things to me. plus, dna testing is showing large numbers of wrongful convictions.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:48 p.m. CST

    Chipps

    by SirLoin

    At least in my upbringing (twelve years of catholic school - how did I get so liberal) the teachings of the old testament were kind of portrayed as a means to control a more primitive culture, and that once Jesus came he kind of washed the old Testament away in terms of the whole "eye for an eye" maxim. Sorry people for getting so religious, I don't intend to start this way.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:48 p.m. CST

    sirloin

    by redshirt

    You are an ignorant fucktard who doesn't read. If you had bothered to read my comment to BSB a few lines up you would have clearly have seen that i am an athiest. That said, I have heard many religious lectures that argue the correct translation of the commandment is "Thou shall not commit murder". There is a difference. If we were not allowed to kill, self defense would be illegal, as would fielding a defensive army in the face of invasion. Accidental homicide would also be a deadly sin. These are not the case. I have kids, and I saw their ultrasounds after a few weeks of gestation, there is a little heart beating in there. It is alive, even though it is entirely dependent on the mother to survive. If a female friend of yours suffered a miscarriage and was crying, would you ask her why she was upset over the loss of a few cells? No, she lost a baby. The issue of what happens with a child after it is borne is an entirely different subject. I have a hard time accepting the argument that most in poverty would have preferred never being born. Well, I might believe it in your case...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:49 p.m. CST

    SirLoin

    by chipps

    certainly do not jugde, but by the same token, society has the right to create rules for self protection

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:50 p.m. CST

    SIR LOIN, QUEEFER

    by BringingSexyBack

    Absolutely. You know, the Left just doesn't do attack points as well as the Right (although Obama's campaign is about to launch an offensive against McCain - some of the ads will hit him hard, quid pro quo). And it's fun sometimes to just really go at it because your opponent's position is immovable anyway. <p> But sometimes it makes sense to point out the truth, and in the case of Obama's answers - which do not pander and show respect for all Americans - it's worth reiterating them.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:51 p.m. CST

    SirLoin

    by chipps

    it is true that the catholics say 'do not kill' while most of the others say 'do not murder' still, there exists concepts such as 'just war' ect

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:51 p.m. CST

    red, I read your post, and I understood it.

    by samsquanch

    there were two paragraphs in my response. read it again, and you'll see it actually does make sense.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:52 p.m. CST

    Samsquanch and Sirloin hit the nail on the head

    by Phategod2

    Now I'm going to go celebrate My Conception-Day.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:52 p.m. CST

    KERRI WALSH HAS NO LIPS AND NO BREASTS

    by BringingSexyBack

    but she's oddly captivating.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:52 p.m. CST

    capital punishment-DNA testing

    by j2talk

    SHOULD solve the issue with innocent people being put to death - no DNA confirmation of quilt- not eligible for death penalty, only life in prison without parole...If capital punishment was performed regularly,speedily it would not be "cruel or unusual" punishment, it would also be a deterrent, currently people know that even if caught and convicted, they odds of actually facing the ultimate punishment is remote,Well, except in Texas...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:53 p.m. CST

    Funny

    by redshirt

    That a guy who names himself "queefer Bukkake" thinks I am stupid. Dude OK you tell me, when does life begin?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:54 p.m. CST

    besides, I also said I didn't like abortion

    by samsquanch

    but I do believe there is something about consciousness that imbues an entity with 'personhood'. fetuses are human, and alive, but they aren't people, in the strict definition of the term. This isn't a tacit approval of abortion, I still believe it's a nasty business, and people who use it as a form of birth control should be fixed, but it is complex. Just jawin' here.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:57 p.m. CST

    Redshirt

    by SirLoin

    If I missed the atheist part, I apologize.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:59 p.m. CST

    chipps

    by Stevie Grant

    If you had ever actually read Augustine of Hippo's writings, you wouldn't consider him as being "Catholic" in any sense for the past thousand years or so... Hell, you might as well as called Origin's works, "Catholic"

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:59 p.m. CST

    Sam

    by redshirt

    OK lets be clear. I am against abortion, but I would never take action to prevent other than try to talk someone out of it. That said, if your baby is born grows up and kills someone I love, I would have no problem throwing the switch. Innocence versus guilt. There are many capital cases that are 100 percent certain that the accused is guilty. Why oppose those?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 10:59 p.m. CST

    And Redshirt

    by SirLoin

    I believe it begins at conception. But I also believe it's more complicated than that.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11 p.m. CST

    sirloin

    by redshirt

    apology accepted. I'm sorry I called you a fucktard as well.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11 p.m. CST

    redshirt

    by chipps

    i agree with you there. see in my view, the law is very clear on the issue of responsibility. it is my responsibility to not do dangerous things that MAY kill someone. It is not good enough to say it PROB won't or it might not. People are happy with the idea that if you drive drunk and kill someone, while an accident, while unluky and something that may not have occured, the responicility is on me to behave in a way free from these risks. you may have a theory as to when life starts, but until you can PROVE when it starts you have a responsibility to behave in a way that does not jeopardise it. People have no problem with this concept outside of the womb.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:02 p.m. CST

    plenty of catholics in the army

    by chipps

    and the pope does not condemn them

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:03 p.m. CST

    and sirloin

    by redshirt

    I'm glad we agree when life begins, and I agree that what comes next is complicated. My big problem is people who act like an unborn baby is mere tissue. That tears at my heart.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:03 p.m. CST

    and chipps

    by SirLoin

    That's why I go with conception. Just because anything else seems arbitrary. After conception you are just arguing over cell-counts. But I still stand pro-choice.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:07 p.m. CST

    because the %100 tag is more than a little misleading.

    by samsquanch

    You can't have it both ways. You can't support capital punishment for one case, but think it's wrong for a case that later is proven to have been faulty, and sent an innocent person to their death. Law simply doesn't work that way. You write a law, and support it, vote for representatives that promote it, for the good times and the bad. If you support capital punishment, you support the state killing innocent people, possibly even someone you know. Maybe you. You seek ways to rationalize this, but ultimately, you support the state killing innocent people. If you don't support capital punishment, you grit your teeth and clench your fists when a clearly guilty piece of shit gets life in prison rather than an early death, but you take comfort in the knowledge that you are part of a community, a society, and a nation that would rather see killers incarcerated rather than murdered, just to appease some primitive revenge instinct. <p> It's a big old complicated world, redshirt. you can't have it your way all the time. sometimes you have to take one for the team.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:07 p.m. CST

    chipps

    by redshirt

    I'm gonna reverse that back at ya. Unless you can prove that life doesn't begin at conception, you have to err on the side of believing it is. If you saw someone lying beside the road, wouldn't you assume he was alive first? Or would you just walk up and kick him? Always assume life first.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:11 p.m. CST

    redshirt

    by chipps

    that was my point. I agree

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:11 p.m. CST

    REDSHIRT

    by BringingSexyBack

    That was a stunning statement you just made. Respect. <p> If you know anything about Obama, you'd know he feels the same way - genuinely. The issue strikes his community deeply. You know the guts it takes for Obama to very publicly tell the black community that they have problems that they themselves need to address, much to the chagrin of Jesse Jackson? But Obama is like that - he'd rather risk his reputation than pander - even to the black community. <p> So when he says abortion is something he opposes, he's not just paying lip service. He's offering a comprehensive solution that, potentially, could render the whole issue moot. And wouldn't that make both sides happy.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:13 p.m. CST

    Samsquanch

    by redshirt

    OK that is an interesting question. Which is better for society, that an innocent man be executed, or that a serial killer be let back on the street. Justice isn't perfect you are right, and quite often the guilty are found not guilty ( OJ anyone?). I'm not so sure that life in solitary max is much better than death for an innocent man to suffer.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:13 p.m. CST

    DUDES! POWER WALKING RACE ON CNBC

    by BringingSexyBack

    LOLLLOL!!!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:14 p.m. CST

    what is 'life'

    by samsquanch

    is it a soul? an aura? Is it consciousness? What is consciousness? Is it the sum of our experiences? What is experience? Is there such thing as an essence of life? Is there such thing as a soul? <p> Easy to get hippy trippy dippy real fast with this topic. Pick your definition according to your beliefs and fucking stick with it. redshirt, I find it strange that as an atheist you seem so sure that there is such thing as a'soul'. I've made my opinion clear on this topic.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:16 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by redshirt

    Explain to me why Obama opposed the born alive infant protection act, even though the language in it specifically stated it would not impinge on abortion rights. Explain to me why he was the only one who opposed it and everyone else was wrong.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:18 p.m. CST

    REDSHIRT

    by BringingSexyBack

    I'm not familiar with that Act, but you sparked some curiosity - I'll definitely look into it. But I'm sorry, I'm practically rolling on the floor watching the power walkers right now ...

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:20 p.m. CST

    just to keep this going

    by samsquanch

    Sometimes guilty people are let back on the street, but this happens just as much in states with CP as the ones without. My point is, killers being freed is a flaw in the justice system. Whether Cp is present in that state's particular system is incidental. <p> I also believe that it sucks when killers are released, such as in the case against OJ. However, this is a non-sequitr as per our conversation. <p> And, again, it's not for us to determine the suffering quotient. It is only up to us to decide whether or not we condone the state murdering innocents.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:22 p.m. CST

    McCain is being pushed HARD on an anti-abortion VEEP

    by G100

    Seems like Lieberman and Ridge just won't wash for right wing Republicans as they feel McCain is too "suspect" on social issues as it is.<p> <p>Giulliani has backed up McCain and stated that if the VEEP was pro-choice then so be it.<p> <p>Has to be said though McCain is still sticking to the say nothing and nothing has been decided line and keeping his cards as close to his chest as possible.<p> <p>Of course this may just all be to sweeten the deal for Romney or Pawlenty by goading the right with two pro-choicers. It's a complicated business choosing a VEEP.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:23 p.m. CST

    HUMAN PENGUINS

    by BringingSexyBack

    Jesus this is the silliest thing I've ever seen!!!!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:23 p.m. CST

    Samsquanch

    by redshirt

    When the hell did I ever use the term soul? I said that when I saw the ultrasound of my kids at just a few weeks I saw a beating heart. How the hell can anyone argue that I wasn't looking at a living being? My best friends wife miscarried several years back at almost two months, we cried for the loss of their baby. Don't give me that rhetorical bullshit about "what is life". Do you have kids? Did you marvel at their development? or were you just mildly interested in the cellular activity going on in your womans womb?

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:26 p.m. CST

    I HOPE IT'S LIEBERMAN

    by BringingSexyBack

    Then it's Game Set Match Obama the very next minute.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:26 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by redshirt

    OK I really appreciate your honesty about the born alive act. Please do look into it. I don't know why it hasn't gotten into the MSM yet. I just can't understand how he did what he did.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:29 p.m. CST

    woah, go easy

    by samsquanch

    Sorry about the soul bit, I guess I misunderstood you. However, stating certainly that 'life begins at conception' can be interpreted that way, I don't think I made such a blunder. <p> I think we basically agree on this topic, except for the conception bit. I already stated that I believe consciousness to be the deal-maker or the deal-breaker. <p> Let me ask you- why would being interested in the 'cellular activity' be mutually exclusive with actually having feelings about it? I don't know about you, but I'm a complex enough person to be able to do both.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:30 p.m. CST

    ANYBODY HERE BELIEVE IN REINCARNATION?

    by BringingSexyBack

    Man would that add a whole new dimension to the debate.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:35 p.m. CST

    Samsquanch

    by redshirt

    I meant is it merely cellular activity, like a petrie dish, or it amazing to witness life growing before your very eyes. The whole start of this discussion was obamas answer as to when life begins. He didn't answer,McCain did,I agree with McCains answer, which seems to really piss some people off. and BSB I really hope it isn't Liebs! If it is, our only hope is that Obama chooses Kerry, then the match is a draw again!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:35 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by redshirt

    Only in Carousel

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:41 p.m. CST

    LIEBERMAN HAS THE STRONGEST CHANCE

    by BringingSexyBack

    Rove is determined to stack the NeoCon deck in a McCain admin, and having Lieberman in the VP position is the same as Cheney. Limbaugh may be raising hell, but he'll fall in line in due course. The electorate, however, will not. There lies the rub.

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:42 p.m. CST

    GOOD NIGHT ALL

    by BringingSexyBack

    It was pleasantly civil!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:43 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by redshirt

    Well, as wrong as you are, I would still drink a beer with you. Goodnight!

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:44 p.m. CST

    i gotta go too

    by samsquanch

    cheers boys

  • Aug. 20, 2008, 11:47 p.m. CST

    lol

    by macheesmo3

    The fact that some of you seem to think the President ( whomever it is whever it is in history ) has any significant impact on the economy are flat out fooling yourselves. The economy is a chaotic system with a relative average to inflation ( like the weather ) it bobs and weaves , rises and falls at the whim of so completely a complex chain of events that no economist can predict accurately in the long term . Which is why economists were called " Witchdoctors" by many of the big Barons of the lat 19th and early 20th century. Even with our massive computing capability we still cannot predict the markets long term . You wanna blame somebody , blame the middle class for overspending on luxury items and buying too much house and car for their budgets. ( oh and massive credit spending too ) I don't think that any of these things are caused by the Prez . ( Just as it wasn't Jimmy Carters fault the economy went kaput then either ) this is not a partisan post .

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 12:31 a.m. CST

    Actually, Obama Is Still Ahead By At Least 5 Points

    by LaserPants

    The race is far from over, but it really looks like Obama is gonna take it for the win. The debates are gonna seal it. Obama's cool charisma and masterful oratory versus borderline psychotic PTSD rageaholic with barely coherent rhetoric? Yeah, its already over.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 12:40 a.m. CST

    What does the sanctity of life have to do with paygrade?

    by AntoniusBloc

    The answer defies common sense in the same way the philosophy that underlies Communism defies common sense. Obama's answer is very telling, it reflects his materialistic philosophy. One doesn't have to be a high paid expert to know in their heart and soul when life begins, which has become more and more obvious with what technology reveals about the development of the fetus. But life is not just determined by the physical, unless you subsribe to the philosophy that Communism is based on: materialism. An individual is not an economic unit to be disposed of because someone has determined they're going to end up in poverty anyway, or cause some mythical overpopulation that will ruin the liberal view of a global utopia. Abortion as we know it today, and pushed by Planned Parenthood, has its roots in Nazi eugenics. It is an arrogant view that somehow we have a right to decide who comes into the world, and a right to manipulate and control the make up of the population. Its roots are essentially racist, as the founder of planned parenthood, Margaret Sanger, clearly was. Obama's answer is disturbing considering his support not just for abortion in the past, but killing children already born, accidently, as a result of a botched abortion. If you are familiar with the history of human existence, and the destruction of past major civilizations considered to be 'advanced' for their time, infancticide was a major characteristic not long before its complete demise. To deny the sanctity of life is to undercut the foundation of anything else one would assert as being morally right. But where is morality in the philosophy of materialsm, of which Communism is a good example? People are nothing more than objects based on the premise that the universe is only material, and that all value is defined materially. Look what remnants of that philosophy are doing to the people of Georgia. Look at the history of where the Olympics are now being staged. They kill their own people without hesitation. We cannot allow Obama to lead this country further in the direction of such a dangerous philosophy. The sanctity of life must be protected, otherwise everything else we value falls apart.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 12:45 a.m. CST

    Economy tanks on your watch you get the blame

    by G100

    Doesn't matter if you quote Adam Smith or draw pretty graphs or claim the President is suddenly bereft of all Fiscal Powers and Spending choices.<p> <p>"It's the Economy stupid" and "Are you better off now than four years ago ?" will always be used by Republicanss or Democrats against the incumbent when people hit hard times.<p> <p>Fair's got nothing to do with it. It's called Politics and both sides have done it.<p> <p>Of course this presupposes that everyone believes The President doesn't choose Tax rates, steer the legislative framework which regulates Wall Street, or control spending in regards to the deficit.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 12:52 a.m. CST

    it is clear that the leader of a country has

    by chipps

    at least some control over that countries economy. It is also true that the economy is complex and the leadership does not control all aspects of it. that said, the credit crunch has come due largly to the crowding out effect. The government, which is vast, in the us has borrowed money on an unprecedented level. Thinking about supply and demand, is it any wonder that we are running out of people with money to lend?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 12:54 a.m. CST

    Would that paygrade be more or less than 5 Million ?

    by G100

    Because as we all know the non-materialistic McCain said he thought that figure was rich. Shit if you're on 2 or 3 Million a year you MUST be on foodstamps. Right ?<p> <p>As for when life begins it seems futile to argue with anyone batshit crazy enough to think planned parenthood are comparable to Nazi Eugenics.<p> <p>No doubt they also see no contradiction between the sanctity of life and shooting Doctors dead, bombing clinics or executing people.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:02 a.m. CST

    Sanctity Of Life?

    by LaserPants

    It always cracks me the fuck up how right wing conservative christian types always bring up this rights of the unborn bullshit, BUT COULDN'T GIVE A FLYING FUCK about the rights of ACTUAL LIVING PEOPLE. They're against ANY kind of assistance for the poor, but have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER blowing them the fuck up for oil profits. FUCK YOUR ANTI-CHOICE BULLSHIT. A blob of goo in your crotch is NOT A CHILD. A child is a child. Maybe you should spend more time worrying about the children that have actually been born than the hypothetical ones that may or may not be the return of your illusory space god. I mean, please. Nobody takes your bullshit seriously anymore. Especially not after the last 8 years.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:02 a.m. CST

    G100 learn your history

    by AntoniusBloc

    Planned Parenthood's is Margaret Sanger who was heavily influenced by Nazi Eugenics, so historical fact is hardly 'batshit crazy'. You're last statement, although not very clear, seems to be the old moral equivalence of a war time situation with a systematic taking of innocent life to manipulate the population in the name of some right of 'privacy' that denies all rights to the innocent life being slaughtered.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:06 a.m. CST

    Margaret Sanger IS NOT A Nazi, The Pope, However, IS

    by LaserPants

    Look it up. Pope Ratzinger -- proud nazi and anti-choice pedophile. Go. Fucking. Figure.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:06 a.m. CST

    Argument based on a false assumption, laserpants

    by AntoniusBloc

    And fortunately the polls show hopefully the American people to be more logical than you. As I pointed out, technology is more and more confirming what common sense already told us, that a fetus is more tha 'blob of gloo'. Yes, a child is a child, no matter its location. You can't ASSUME it is not a child just because it is inside the womb, and not outside the womb. You're view is oversimplistic, illogical, and defies common sense.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:12 a.m. CST

    Oh Really, Antonius? What About The Rights Of The BORN?

    by LaserPants

    Riddle me this, why is it that you radical right wing nutjobs have NO PROBLEM AT ALL killing ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS, children, but get your panties all up in a bunch about the flushing away of goo that IS NOT A CHILD.<br><Br> Also, feel free to address the fact that your Pope is an actual nazi and pedophile.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:12 a.m. CST

    Facts mean nothing to you, do they

    by AntoniusBloc

    Do they Laserbrain? Sanger was heavily influenced and involved with the Nazi eugenic program. Pope Benedict XVI was never a 'proud' Nazi, and his actions show it, being anti-eugenics, or anti-abortion. It is the so-called Pro-choice movement that is anti-choice, giving the innocent child in the womb no choice whatsoever.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:12 a.m. CST

    Free health care and education for children under 18

    by Dapper Swindler

    ...not free health care for adults over age 18. <p> Problem solved.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:15 a.m. CST

    Repeating lies is not an argument

    by AntoniusBloc

    where did I advocate killing anyone? and again, the location of a life does not determine whether it is life, or 'goo', simple logic really. But elitist liberals like yourself are always common-sense challenged, although you have a larger problem: recognizing facts.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:15 a.m. CST

    not only he he pedophile and nazi

    by chipps

    but he also killed bambi. and hid my socks. just look at him with his beady little eyes.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:15 a.m. CST

    Gay marriage

    by Dapper Swindler

    Marriage defined as a union between man and woman under god and separate from the state. Civil union defined as union of people of same or different sex recognized by the state.<p> Problem solved.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:18 a.m. CST

    Nope, Sorry, The Pope Is A Nazi Pedophile

    by LaserPants

    Its the truth. Its not some propaganda your local christian witchdoctor made up about Sanger, its ON RECORD as truth. Your POpe is a nazi pedophile. Period. Not only was Ratzo a proud nazi soldier who gleefully shot down allied planes as he guarded a concentration camp, he also is a pedophile who actively covers the sex crimes of his deviant child-rape death cult known as the Catholic Church. Look it up. Its all on record. Have fun with it! <br><br> Btw, you never answered my question about the rights of the born, you know, ACTUAL HUMAN BEINGS? Go ahead, thrill us with your religious fanaticism.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:20 a.m. CST

    don't forget chipps

    by AntoniusBloc

    the Pope also actually seemed to genuinely like President Bush...they like to front, but liberals are full of hate

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:23 a.m. CST

    Eugenics was also about sterilising & killing the disabled

    by G100

    Bush executed the disabled when he was Governor. And that wasn't back in 1916 that was when he was busy frying record numbers of Prisoners in Texas.<p> <p>You can certainly say Sanger was influenced by Eugenics just as I can say Prescott Bush was the financial partner to a man who funded the Nazi Party but it's not relevant to 2008 save for Batshit crazy hysterical partisan pointscoring.<p> <p>My last statement is as clear as the Catholic Church. They do not condone the taking of life or contraception. Thou shalt not kill seems to mean something to them whether you agree with it or not. No waffling and no scrabbling for irrelevant hypotheticals or "moral equivelancies".

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:23 a.m. CST

    a nazi LESBIAN pedophile

    by chipps

    who puts the toilet paper on toilet roll holder the wrong way

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:26 a.m. CST

    Why should I answer the question of an idiot?

    by AntoniusBloc

    You're simply lying and that just further supports my argument. I'm sure Ratzinger's 'glee' is on record. But you continue to support racist population control through infanticide and pretend your some touchy feely liberal who loves everyone. That's always the cover of an elitist who could care less for the sanctity and value of life of those 'lesser' beings who will bring down his vision of a global utopia that recycles. Give me a break. And if the Pope is a pedophile for a cover up, so is the major media for covering up the fact that the rate of child sexual abuse was much higher in the secular society than it was in the Church. By your logic, Oprah is a pedophile and so is the head of the department of education.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:27 a.m. CST

    This is...

    by Harold-Sherbort

    ..going to be one of the very few movies I take LSD before I watch.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:27 a.m. CST

    The Real Problem 4 U Is That REALITY HAS A LIBERAL BIAS

    by LaserPants

    And thats the thing that drives you right wing theocratic nut jobs so crazy. You know, deep in your black hearts, that we're right. You know the idea of a space god is completely insane. You know that life begins when the child is born and NOT before. BUT, you want to believe what your witchdoctors and cult leaders say SO BADLY, that you'll bend over backwards; making up all kinds of completely bizarre assumptions that aren't rooted in science, but primitive mysticism and ghost stories to scare frightened children into compliance with whatever the creepy old man in the funny hat wants to do to them.<br><br> Oh and speaking of that, the Catholic Church's child-rape program? That doesn't seem to bother you too much for some reason? So abortion is bad, but rape and murder of ACTUAL CHILDREN is okay? Really? Is it any wonder that people think you guys are fucking insane, are leaving the church in droves, and voting for more liberal progressive candidates? Is it any wonder? Not really.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:30 a.m. CST

    Actually, In Your Cult, Abortion Is The Greatest Gift Of All!

    by LaserPants

    Every aborted fetus becomes an angel and flies into the sky to frolic and play at Jesus feat in his castle in the clouds! So, in away, by your religion, abortion SHOULD BE a sacrament! Its an instantaneous trip to heaven! Hear that, Jeebus freaks? HE WANTS YOU TO ABORT YOUR CHILDREN SO HE CAN HAVE NEW PLAYMATES IN HIS MAGICAL CLOUD CASTLE! YAY!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:33 a.m. CST

    woa

    by chipps

    life starts at birth? so why is it that if i punch a pregnant women in the belly and the baby dies, i go down for manslaughter. do you think i should get assault only or also manslaughter?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:40 a.m. CST

    ok guy

    by chipps

    i have my knickers in a not, but no you, no way. I'm even an american and i am a member of my countries left wing party. Why are people not allowed to be nuanced. why can i not believe in free hospitals and school and mostly funded higher education (which we have here) and yet at the same time question the logic that a child is only human after birth. does that mean a doctor, by inducing birth or doing a c section is the controller of when life starts? peace out dude.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:43 a.m. CST

    Lay off of Jeebus Laserpants !

    by G100

    Jeebus is the blessed miracle and spirit that emanates from the God of the transubstantiated Waffle stuck to the the ceiling.<p> <p>Thy sacraliciousness shall yet smite thee down for thy lack of faith in Jeebus!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:46 a.m. CST

    by chipps

    ^not american

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:48 a.m. CST

    SirLoin

    by SunTzu77

    Catholics are not obliged to be against Capital Punishment. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, "Assuming that the guilty party's identity and responsibility have been fully determined, the traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude recourse to the death penalty, if this is the only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor." Abortion, on the other hand -- the Catechism states, "Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of *every* procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law." There is a big difference. Many of the Doctors of the Catholic Church supported the death penalty. St. Augustine (Doctor Gratiae) stated, "The same divine authority that forbids the killing of a human being establishes certain exceptions, as when God authorizes killing by a general law or when He gives an explicit commission to an individual for a limited time. The agent who executes the killing does not commit homicide; he is an instrument as is the sword with which he cuts. Therefore, it is in no way contrary to the commandment, 'Thou shalt not kill' to wage war at God's bidding, or for the representatives of public authority to put criminals to death, according to the law, that is, the will of the most just reason" (The City of God, Book 1, chapter 21). St. Thomas Aquinas (Doctor Angelicus, Doctor Communis) stated, "Every part is directed to the whole, as imperfect to perfect, wherefore every part exists naturally for the sake of the whole. For this reason we see that if the health of the whole human body demands the excision of a member, because it became putrid or infectious to the other members, it would be both praiseworthy and healthful to have it cut away. Now every individual person is related to the entire society as a part to the whole. Therefore if a man be dangerous and infectious to the community, on account of some sin, it is praiseworthy and healthful that he be killed in order to safeguard the common good, since "a little leaven corrupteth the whole lump” (1 Cor. 5:6). (Summa Theologiae, II, II, q. 64, art. 2)."

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:54 a.m. CST

    SunTzu you missed a few bits out, accidently of course

    by G100

    As stated in John Paul II's encyclical Evangelium Vitae, the Roman Catholic Church holds that capital punishment should be avoided unless it is the only way to defend society from the offender in question, and that with today's penal system such a situation requiring an execution is either rare or non-existent.<p> <p>the unjust aggressor. (AND IT CONTINUES) If, however, nonlethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person. Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity are very rare, if not practically nonexistent

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:58 a.m. CST

    Jeebus isn't American ?

    by G100

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2 a.m. CST

    me

    by chipps

    i'm not

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:05 a.m. CST

    G100

    by SunTzu77

    The Catholic Church does not forbid Capital Punishment... it does forbid abortion. Capital punishment has never been forbidden by any Pope via ex cathedra. Abortion has been forbidden via ex cathedra. <p> http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_040302.asp <p>

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:08 a.m. CST

    G100 cont'd

    by SunTzu77

    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0503fea2.asp <p> Cardinal Ratzinger aka Pope Benedict XVI <p> ""Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia. For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion. While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment. There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.""

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:08 a.m. CST

    The point is, G100

    by AntoniusBloc

    It's not the same thing, and it's not a simple moral equivalence. Obviously, Justice is involved with Capital punishment, and it deals with criminals. It is not a simple difference, but a logical one. Sun Tzu quotes from the catechism, the traditional view of the Church. The taking of an innocent life is and should be an obvious moral wrong, especially on the level abortion has reached in our society. Simple minds like laserpants can't see the complexity and distinguish the moral differences essentially because their philosophy has no objective morality. How can it if can advocate the taking of innocent life when not certain when life begins?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:19 a.m. CST

    How do you know its 'goo' Laserpants?

    by AntoniusBloc

    Take a common sense lesson from Chipps, first of all, and realize that defining life does not depend whether you are inside or outside the womb. You can't seriously believe that and call others simple minded. In your arrogance, you don't even realize that science does not support your view, space gods aside. Even before Roe v. Wade science taught life began at conception because as in all mammals, that's when the genetic code is complete. But here's the major point: Obama's paygrade answer essentially says, 'i don't know'; in his mind, theologically or scientifically it cannot be determined...so the question is, if you don't know or are unsure if the fetus in the womb is a life, then isnt it still morally wrong to destroy it? On a stormy day driving and see an object in the road shaped like body, but could be just an old overcoat, do you run it over? Dick Cheney jokes aside, if you're a hunter and see the brush moving, not sure if a deer or fellow hunter, do you shoot? Based on the premise 'I don't know', based on the premise 'it's above my paygrade' the moral thing to do is NOT to shoot. Obama's answer , therefore, represents a philosophy that is dangerous for this country.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:41 a.m. CST

    I never said Forbid I said Condone

    by G100

    The Catechism is fairly clear that it doesn't approve of Capital punshment as a social tool of the state with the words "if not practically non-existant" and Ratzingers stance on contraception is rigid but not rigidly enforced with differing stances being adopted between for example the massive south American and African congregations and the more Western countries.<p> <p>My point would be there are lines and not black and white absolutes but if you hold life as something to be protected when it is at such an early, ill defined and speculative stage, then when it is clear walking, talking, thinking, with no if's or buts then how much easier should it be to protect it then ?<p> <p>I don't go for the birth as a defining moment any more than I believe the Eggs Acrosome reaction is a clearly defined moment where a definable human life is definitely in play.<p> <p>To be frank if you think the egg and the sperm combined are clear examples of potential life then since every sperm and egg has that potential it's not hard to step back even firther and claim them as inviable and "sacred".<p> <p>I believe Mony Python wrote a little ditty about that one.<p> <p>There's a good reason pregnancy lasts as long as it does and while Technology saving children can only be a good thing the side effect is that the line quickly becomes blurred between viable and non-viable.<p> <p>Since the whole question of what is or is not a human "life" is just a touch complicated there may be a reason that Doctors and not Priests or Politicians are usually entrusted with such decisions that pertain to life it's viability and the enabling, ending or prolonging of it. Day in. Day out.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:44 a.m. CST

    To the "jesus was a lib

    by Darth_Inedible

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3 a.m. CST

    The life argument ..

    by macheesmo3

    doesn't matter to me . nor the morality argument of killing embryo's. To me the real argument is a civil liberty one and I don't like the govt being that deeply involved in peoples bidness. Let there be a stigma attached to abortion , fine by me . But making things like this ILLEGAL is wayyyyyyyyyyyy to Big Brother to make me comfortable . This kinda single issue politics only really comes up in election years anyway , and nobody is going to reverse Roe V Wade ( The Supreme Court doesn't want this coming anywhere near them ). It's just one of those oh so boring , hot button topics that seems to get everybody in a royal uproar . If some people spent the time they waste throwing fits and debating these topics into something productive we could probably solve most of the social problems that lead to these things .

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:17 a.m. CST

    B R A N D

    by TooWhippy

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:23 a.m. CST

    Alien Lesbot Helen Clark will win

    by Fineus Fog

    yaya for the New Zealand Prime Minister - she is HOT!!!!! www.primeminister.govt.nz

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 6:12 a.m. CST

    There is only...

    by SunTzu77

    one stance on contraception in regards to the Catholic Church. Any other church claiming to be Catholic and believing otherwise is in schism.<p> "2399 The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or **contraception**)." <p> "2370 Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, "every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" is intrinsically evil: <p> Thus the innate language that expresses the total reciprocal self-giving of husband and wife is overlaid, through contraception, by an objectively contradictory language, namely, that of not giving oneself totally to the other. This leads not only to a positive refusal to be open to life but also to a falsification of the inner truth of conjugal love, which is called upon to give itself in personal totality. . . . The difference, both anthropological and moral, between contraception and recourse to the rhythm of the cycle . . . involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality." <p> I'll leave the Catholic chat at that. If one wants to know what Catholics believe then consult the Catechism.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 6:23 a.m. CST

    AS THE EARLY SHIFT AGREED UPON LAST NIGHT

    by BringingSexyBack

    It's not about position or belief, it's about practical action. <p> Obama's proposed solution is to have national focus on preventing unwanted pregnancies and supporting adoption. The result would be to reduce abortions to the point where even the most stringent abortion opposers would not have any concerns, nor would pro-choicers. <p> But if people want to cynically continue using abortion as a wedge issue as a political tact, then by all means do so.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 6:32 a.m. CST

    YOU KNOW WHAT ELSE IS DANGEROUS FOR THIS COUNTRY?

    by BringingSexyBack

    To continue to allow the NeoCons, oil interests, military industrial complex and transglobal corporate lobbies to control our foreign policy. <P> McCain/Lieberman 08!!!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 6:48 a.m. CST

    A response to Antonius Bloc

    by alanmoore

    You asked where morality comes from in materialism. First of all, a clarifier; when it comes to that philosophy -- which is separate and not inherent in communism -- there is a subclassification, that being scientific materialism. That is, nothing exists beyond the material universe of protons, electrons, atoms, etc. And I, in addition to being an atheist, am a scientific materialist. And to answer your question of where morality comes from: It comes from civilizations, societies, communities, and most importantly, individuals all living and learning, and amassing cohesive secular philosophies. The other place it comes from is genetic: It has so far been well argued by several geneticists and evolutionary biologists that our morals are learned things from the past (learned the way I just spelled out), and carried over as genetic knowledge. People don't like these ideas because they're not "spiritual" and "touchy feely," but I say TOUGH SHIT ON A CRACKER. The universe runs on large clusters of chaotic, random events all shaped and molded by probabilistic selection. There is no "soul" swimming around within the viscera of your body, just electrical impulses inside your nerves. And when they're gone, so are you. Period. There is no afterlife, there is no "God" waiting to meet you. No, when the electrical sparks in your brain stop sparking . . . then that's it, THE END. Morality doesn't come from there being a life beyond this one, it comes from THIS life being ALL YOU GET, and recognizing the preciousness and sacredness of that.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 6:58 a.m. CST

    blah-blah-blah...

    by just pillow talk

    Vote for MNG for Mod. <p>"Banning shitheels today for a better tomorrow."<p>This message approved and paid for by the CoC.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:02 a.m. CST

    Bitter Petulance

    by kevinwillis.net

    "I'd like to see Stone dig deeper into the man's bitter petulance."<br><br> I'd like to see someone dig a little deeper into Mr. Beaks crack pipe, to see if they can find some of that green crack he's been smoking. That being said, Josh Brolin's mannerisms look a little forced in that clip, but his voice is dead on. He's really quite the mimic. I'm thinking this will actually be interesting enough to do better than Alexander, even if it doesn't make Bush into a cartoon caricature of pure drug-addled, coke-snorting, Snidely Whiplash style simian evil, like Mr. Beaks might prefer. <br><Br> I'm wondering if, preview aside, Stone is going to be relatively even-handed (left-of-center, sure, but distant from Micheal Moore territory) here. All the critics will be complaining that Stone didn't get to Bush's true "bitter petulance" or his true "inner-Nazi" or his true "simian-retard-devil-child-alcoholic" or whatever.<br><Br>Maybe he'll make everybody happy.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:05 a.m. CST

    Attention HoboCode

    by kevinwillis.net

    You're sweet to think of me. I'm glad I'm on your mind. I mean, really glad. I'm thinking of you, too. So, um. What are you wearing?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:11 a.m. CST

    Settling religion and politics...

    by WhinyNegativeBitch

    ...If you genuinely believe in god you are too stupid or delusional to be in a position of power. Simple.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:19 a.m. CST

    Obama Wasn't a Muslim in Any Real Sense

    by kevinwillis.net

    If he was, who gives a shit? You think anyone else in the Democratic party, outisde Joe Leiberman, is going to be any tougher on radical Islam than Barry will be? Are Obama and McCain whitewashing their backstories? Shocking! I am shocked, I tell you, shocked to find spin and revisionist histories here in a political campaign.<br><br> Sheesh. Arguing policy is one thing, arguing who switched what denomination when is just goofy.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:24 a.m. CST

    What's good enough

    by Abominable Snowcone

    for you is good enough for me, it's good enough--eeyah yah yah yah yah yah yah

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:45 a.m. CST

    I like the Matt Taibbi Line

    by mjgtexas

    "Sitting constipated in a pew, McCain has the look of a man who would rather go down on an alter boy than pass the plate. It's one of his greatest qualities."

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:48 a.m. CST

    Michael Bay?

    by The Ringwraith

    Is anyone else wondering if thats Michael Bay at -1:30? It sure as hell looks like him...

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:02 a.m. CST

    WhinyNegativeBitch

    by superfatty

    If you truly believe that, I feel sorry for you. The US has had its faults since the beginning, but yet we have had great leaders in all parties that believe in a higher power. As for the movie... snorefest. Most political movies stink for they show one side of the story, and stretch the truth.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:03 a.m. CST

    I Like Bush, and W. Looks Miles Away From . . .

    by kevinwillis.net

    "The Assassination of George W. Bush". That was more like the videos made by the Columbine kids or something . . . fantasizing about killing people you don't like is just disturbed. Dubya looks like a left-of-center, quasi-parody of Bush and his life . . . lots of interesting characters, etc. I can see why Stone wanted to make this movie, and I bet the biggest problem for Stone (and perhaps benefit) is that the right is going to think he went too far, and the left is going to think he didn't go far enough.<br><br>But it's a far cry from making a movie that says the president is an idiot or evil to a detailed depicted fantasy of his murder. Like the difference between putting a dog in a funny sweater, or dismembering it alive with a machete. I'm not a big Stone fan, but I wouldn't put him in the same camp as those creeps, or the guy who wrote the book fantasizing about all the ways Bush could be murdered. And I think there was a 2004 off-broadway play about how to assassinate Bush . . . freedom of speech, and all that, yes, but there's a worlds worth of difference between Stone's negative/irreverent portrayal of Bush and that kind of "and we could kill him with a chainsaw" murder-fantasy kind of crap.<br><br>This doesn't look that bad. My only hope is the right-wing punditocracy doesn't over-react. I'd prefer to leaving the screaming lunacy to the left. Alas, this sort of movie seems destined to press the buttons of the Sean Hannity's of the world.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:12 a.m. CST

    SoylentMean . . .

    by kevinwillis.net

    "But, damn, supposedly the Denver police have built a huge holding cell for all the arrests they feel are imminent."<Br><br>Aint no supposedly to it. They've said they did it, and there have been plenty of pictures and video of the prison warehouse they got set up.<Br><BR> I hope nothing happens and the Denver police look like idiots. I think the Recreate 68 types are a minority, and there's just not that much division on the Democrat/Liberal side to garner much more than token protests. They'll be folks there because they know they'll probably be interviewed and get camera time, but I'm betting the Denver police will look like paranoid idiots for setting that thing up.<br><br>Maybe it will break out into riots, with Hillary and Obama supporters clashing in the streets . . . but I just don't see it. And, frankly, the protesters make a mess of things in Denver, nobody is going to be sympathetic with them . . . especially not in the media. And it would only make it less likely that they get what they want. Nah, I just don't believe anything is going to happen. <br><br> Yet the city of Denver has prepped their warehouse gulag (complete with razor wire) and has been busy passing laws against carrying around excrement in bags and so on . . . I'm betting that's going to be seen, in retrospect, as a big, stupid waste of time. And the taxpayers of Denver's money hard at work for "the people". Meh.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:18 a.m. CST

    SunTzu77 . . .

    by kevinwillis.net

    "Periodic continence, that is, the methods of birth regulation based on self-observation and the use of infertile periods, is in conformity with the objective criteria of morality. These methods respect the bodies of the spouses, encourage tenderness between them, and favor the education of an authentic freedom. In contrast, 'every action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible' is intrinsically evil:"<br><Br> Frankly, this still feels a little ambiguous to me. Are blowjobs and sodomy (between a loving, married adult male/female couple) still okay?<br><Br>In any case, I'm fortunately not Catholic. Yay for the Presbyterians!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:21 a.m. CST

    Phategod2 . . .

    by kevinwillis.net

    I'll take a smart Christian over a dumb atheist any day.<br><br>So there.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:37 a.m. CST

    What happens after they are born

    by SKULL1138

    The Church may say that contraception is a bad thing, but surekly that is only because they view sex as dirty, or wrong, when in fact its the nmost natural thing in the wrold, i.e. almost every other living thing on this planet procreates. <P> I am not one who approves of abortion, but would like to see them put soem more effort in to encourage and help young mothers deal with the baby once its born. <P> Its all dont kill little babies one minute, then they are born and its look after your own kid sister, thats what welafres for, and what kind of life do some of these children have to suffer if they are born into a mother who cannot look after them and does not want them i.e. a crack whore. <P> So yeah I dont like the idea of abortion, but I also dont like how people against it simply say dont do it, but fail to try and provide solutions to the problems in society which caused this in the first place i.e. sex education at an earlier age and also free contraception for everyone. <P> What I dont like, is that Church types are too quick to believe all that they are told my other their parents or by the church. <P> If you are going to be religious, fair enough, if you are an adult and can make that decision for yourself, but Kids have no choice and are already brain washed by the time they reach adulthood, so that they cannot be tolerent of those with different beliefs, thats the problem with all religion...most of thej are not tolerant of any other beliefs, if they were the World would be a nicer place, everyone thinks they are always right and others are wrong. <P> Peace

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:38 a.m. CST

    I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts

    by Joker Gordon Levitt

    there they are standing in a row.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:41 a.m. CST

    Nietzche

    by Joker Gordon Levitt

    Is man one of God's blunders? Or is God one of man's blunders?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:51 a.m. CST

    Nice job fucking up the headline.

    by johnnykool

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:06 a.m. CST

    When does life begin for a talkbacker?

    by anged02

    ...after you move out of your parents' basement or when you see a vagina for the first time?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:29 a.m. CST

    President Brolin

    by ChezKing

    Regardless, of whether or not it is a glorified SNL sketch, I still could use a two hour laugh at Bush. It looks like Brolin got him down real good. I look forward to seeing this...

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:36 a.m. CST

    WOW THATS GOOD..HOPE THE MOVIE IS.

    by FleshMachine

    CAPS..sorry

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:57 a.m. CST

    Doesn't matter who wins in November.

    by mrfan

    We are fucked.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Abortion? There is no answer.

    by Darth Macchio

    Why? Simple. All this talk about when life begins is moot to the overall point. Read about cellular biology and the human reproductive process. After the sperm hits the egg, you've got what is known as a zygote (pre-embryo). That zygote is living tissue, not a glob of goo. It isn't a child, nor a person but it is unquestionably alive. If allowed to progress, it will grow into an embryo and eventually a fetus and then an unborn child and finally, a baby. This is not something to argue opinions over, it is biological fact. At the end of the day, your interpretation of this and your opinion on it is irrelevant to the facts.<p>That said, not allowing a woman to determine her own biological fate and the fate of her unborn child is simply dehumanizing her into a walking incubator and forcing her reproductive choices to meet your moral philosophy. How is that not overt control of another human being? It isn't saving a hostage from it's murderous captors. It is simply not allowing woman to control their own health and biological destiny. But, by allowing a woman to determine her own biological fate, you are giving her permission to end the life of a, for lack of better words or an 'agreeable' definition, a pre-human.<p>So what, then, is the answer? There is none with our current social conventions of morality. If we abandoned that "convention of morality" then perhaps aborting a fetus would mean as little as dictating the biological choices of a woman, who like anyone else, including the unborn, deserves a chance to make their own fate.<p>There is no answer to this issue. It is a morally ambiguous absolute and a debate that transcends 'right' or 'wrong'. One solution is right for half and wrong for the other half, the opposite solution has the exact opposite results, wrong for one and right for the other. Thus, no solution.<p>I think that is the truth most people overlook.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:04 a.m. CST

    Oliver Stone

    by TOTAL_FUCKING_DESTRUCTION

    and a roomful of high prices Hawaiian whores-- <p> TOTAL FUCKING DESTRUCTION

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:23 a.m. CST

    Laserpants, enough with the pope nazi stuff

    by SirLoin

    He grew up in Nazi germany, he was enrolled in Hitler youth, as was every child growing up during that time. Pedophile? Bullshit, cite your sources.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:34 a.m. CST

    EGG SALAD FOR PRESIDENT

    by BringingSexyBack

    Can you imagine that?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:42 a.m. CST

    And capital punishment? I've a better solution...

    by Darth Macchio

    But first, guilt must be absolute. I think this is feasible with out current understanding of DNA identification though I do not know for sure. If we cannot be absolute on someone's guilt then we cannot use my solution. Guilt is essential. Establishing unequivocal guilt is paramount to this process. We must not be "convinced" someone is guilty, we must be "scientifically absolute with zero ambiguity" that someone is guilty. Once there is no question of guilt then we move on to the punitive stages.<p>Capital punishment is stupid and here's why:<p>If a criminal is 'sentenced to death' then why waste a perfectly good human specimen for some quick and vengeful sense of 'justice'? By denying the condemned their lives, you deny them of their humanity. I think denial of humanity is a far worse punishment than death but how is that a deterrent if you death is quick? I think I have the best solution though one in which many would not agree.<p>The 'condemned' should be used for scientific experimentation.<p>Using animals is a horrible thing but there's no question that probably 80% of the cures and medical knowledge we've discovered are based on animal experimentation. Animals are not a commodity and as co-inhabitants on this planet, we do not have the right to decide who is more important and who isn't. But with my solution, there is no more issue and why? Well if we used humans to experiment on, we'd have a much higher accuracy context and actual REAL data on human subjects and thus be far more likely to end diseases such as cancer within our lifetimes.<p>The entire process of sentencing a person to death, the appeals, etc, the costs to taxpayers are in the millions of dollars for a single condemned prisoner. It would cost far less to sustain this condemned individual for experimentation purposes.<p>But wait, you say. These 'condemned' are likely far from healthy human specimens! Well, cold turkey them on whatever their bullshit health issues are; force them into exercise programs, proper diets, etc. We've condemned these people to the grave and thus their bodies are no longer their own domain; arguing against cruelty for someone you're going to kill is, at least, little bit hypocritical, no? And even if they needed some degree of medical rehabilitation before the experimentation began, I'd argue it would still be far less expensive than simple executing someone. I've read it costs over a million dollars just for the execution itself! And then something like $80,000 per year and up to maintain a single condemned prisoner on death row. More than most people will make in their lifetimes for someone condemned to death?<p>And if you think simply being killed is a deterrent, imagine what a deterrent a lifetime of scientific experimentation would be?<p>Use your imagination and forgo your human condition for a moment and think about it...once guilt is absolute, then to simply exterminate someone is wasteful when so much is needed on so many levels for medical research. No more injecting chimps with cancer and then working a cure on them. Inject cancer into a child-murderer and then you'd have real results from your experiments. There'd be no middle, human testing phase necessary and what's the worst that could happen? Death? Sure, at the end of the day, my argument is without morality or conscience, but I think it is undeniably more beneficial to humanity as a whole than to some sense of vengeance or justice. I do not argue that these condemned should be allowed to "suffer in agony" per se, I propose this solution not so much as a punishment as a way to take one person's crimes against humanity and, instead, use their bodies to benefit humanity. Precautions could be put in place to make sure there is no undue suffering and numerous controls would have to be in place but, on a theoretical level, I think this is a far more cost-effective and wider benefit to humanity at large.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:49 a.m. CST

    I THINK CHINA HARVESTS ORGANS FROM PRISONERS

    by BringingSexyBack

    Although in their case I don't trust their judgment on absolute guilt. I just don't see the U.S. as - yet - being able to entertain the idea. Give us another generation raised on GTA, though, and I'm sure the society will be more open to the idea. <p> Egg Salad 08!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 12:46 p.m. CST

    Darth Macchio

    by Abominable Snowcone

    At risk of having my comment reveal where I stand on the issue, I will say that I agree with most of your post about the "non-solution." You rightly recongnize that the "zygote" is living, and that this is uncontested fact. I think what most of the feminazi "It's our bodies" people fail to overlook is that this "zygote" is not merely an organic anomaly, akin to a cyst or a tumor. It is, as you point out, a human being in the making. And at one point or another, it's a human being they (usually)chose freely, either with intent or by failure to act (birth control), to have implanted in them. Which is why I always kind of frowned on women who resorted to abortion as a matter of convenience, of ridding themselves of something they didn't want but didn't take educated, responsible steps to prevent when they should have. In other words, a way to blow of the fact that they acted irresponsibly. If feminazis want to maintain complete control over their own bodies, they should keep in mind that one's responsibility (ie physical autonomy) doesn't start at the clinic, but in the bedroom. The "choice" should be made ahead of time. Everyone can argue the morality of this until the stars fall from the sky, because there probably are no "right" answers, but given the biological fact that the zygote is living, there's no way of arguing around the resulting fact that abortion is the destruction of said living tissue, which means, deductively, that it is the destruction of a life, separate from that of host mother.<p> So I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm just chiming in with my .02<p> As for prisoners, yes--pour that test shampoo in their eyes

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:23 p.m. CST

    Abortion. There is an answer.

    by kilik777

    Dont do it. Its simple black and white issue. God told Job he knew him in his mother's womb. Case closed. http://tinyurl.com/pv8do

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:52 p.m. CST

    kilik777

    by Damage_Inc

    Is there a specific article on that web page about that? If so could you narrow it down a bit?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:54 p.m. CST

    No, abortion is not answered by religion...

    by Darth Macchio

    ...because religion is subjective. One person's religion is another person's holocaust. One person's God is another person's superstition. The joy you feel in your religion may be the same as the joy the man who studies the stars and planets feels with no belief in any god whatsoever. I respect your views and would not enforce mine upon you. Are you so quick to enforce yours upon me? Isn't it possible to be completely secular and still against abortion? The absence of religion does not leave a moral vacuum. There is no universal agreed upon objectivity, in the theocratic sense, to justify making religious laws or rules for everyone, everywhere to live by, so you cannot use it to justify abortion pro or con and still consider it a "valid" argument in my opinion. What if my God doesn't even know who Job is or was? What if I don't believe as you do? Tough for me? I still have to live by your rules as given by something I might consider to be fantasy? Does only the Christian God have something to say about this topic?<p>The irony is you don't need religion to prove abortion "wrong" in the sense of it being "wrong" to stop the life process of a living thing, you just need scientific fact (that must make the non-secular quite agitated I would think, science coming to the rescue of their argument). What do you use to prove the pro-choice argument? Free will and individual liberty. Which, to me, is worth more than simply being alive.<p>My twosense...

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 1:58 p.m. CST

    Not a political debate? You must be new...

    by Darth Macchio

    ...no disrespect mind you but anytime anything remotely close to something good or bad about Bush, etc, Obama, McCain, or Michael Moore, Limbaugh, etc...ALWAYS turns into a political debate. ALWAYS! I'm the jackass usually calling for a full on no hold barred BATTLE ROYALE!!! Straight up Escape From NY style yo! Since people rarely change their views I usually say we determine the victor by violence...the way we used to do things instead of all this bickering! As my good friend Conan once said, "ENOUGH TALK!!!".

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:08 p.m. CST

    Laserpants

    by Damage_Inc

    Do you have any links about what you were talking about with the pope thing?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:10 p.m. CST

    I SUPPORT DARTH MACCHIO

    by BringingSexyBack

    On his views, and on his battle cry. Where is CHRISSM?!?!!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:14 p.m. CST

    DAMAGE_INC

    by BringingSexyBack

    I'm not speaking for Laserpants. But you might want to check out Jesus-is-saviour.com Good site.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:16 p.m. CST

    ONCE WAS A ZYGOTE

    by BringingSexyBack

    That'll be the title of my upcoming autobiography. Thank you, Macchio.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:17 p.m. CST

    AT WHAT POINT DOES LIFE BEGIN?

    by BringingSexyBack

    The moment she touches your cock. At the point you're a foregone conclusion.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:24 p.m. CST

    Coughlins Laws

    by Damage_Inc

    I hear you. I can't imagine anyone wanting to watch this movie after 8 years of this bullshit. I hope it bombs too.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:25 p.m. CST

    I'M LIBERAL AND REALLY NOT LOOKING FORWARD TO IT EITHER

    by BringingSexyBack

    There's a lot of Bush's past that ought to be magnified for the greater public's knowledge, but I agree the timing is awkward. We got real issues to deal with in this Presidential race. We should settle it first, then enjoy the movie.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:33 p.m. CST

    BringingSexyBack

    by Damage_Inc

    What's that? That is just one of those scam search sites.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 2:57 p.m. CST

    I'll see this.

    by Rando Calrisian

    Right after I crawl across broken glass on my knees while a midget (sorry... dwarf) rides me wearing a cowboy hat and spurs singing the Kazakhstan national anthem. <br> <br> Yawn...this is... just another remake.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:14 p.m. CST

    I'm A Conservative, As Well

    by kevinwillis.net

    And this doesn't look bad. But it also looks like one of those things I'll keep meaning to see, and never actually see until I run across it on cable one day.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:23 p.m. CST

    What the hell is going on here?

    by Half-Baked-Goggle-Box-Do-Gooder

    People screeching about Oliver Stone's best movies, and NOT ONE PERSON has mentioned "Natural Born Killers". That settles it. I'm not taking any political advice from ANY of you!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:24 p.m. CST

    ..............

    by Half-Baked-Goggle-Box-Do-Gooder

    So THERE!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:29 p.m. CST

    I'm neither a conservative nor a liberal and...

    by Darth Macchio

    ...I'm only interested in this as a curiosity; meaning I won't ever see it unless it comes on HBO or something along those lines. I agree that it is far too soon, not because history will likely change their views on the current administration (unless the view gets worse or something) but because it's too soon. Garbage to the opposition, preaching to the choir to the home team. Stone does good work occasionally and then he does heavy-handed stuff. I prefer the more neutral stuff politically speaking except for maybe JFK.<p>One thing that is quite funny and I'm sure the bulk of you won't agree with me...Bush and this current administration aren't really conservatives nor are they really republicans. Think RINO or maybe CINO and isn't the term 'neo-conservative' kind of a rhetorical oxy-moron? This is not your father's rebublican party fellas. Not even close.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Damage_Inc

    by kilik777

    no article there on that subject, I was just pimping my site. Im sorry its not Job but Jeremiah. Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:48 p.m. CST

    the only person who decides when an abortion can take place

    by slappy jones

    is the woman who is deciding whether to get one. end of story.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:48 p.m. CST

    Hey, who said "Life Begins At Conciousness" earlier?

    by Half-Baked-Goggle-Box-Do-Gooder

    Samsquanch? Was that you? <p>Sorry, dude, but I see people driving around EVERY DAY that still don't meet that definition.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:55 p.m. CST

    to me

    by chipps

    the thing that i have a problem with in catholic doctrine (and i am one) is their stance on contraception. If you are going to be against abortion (which I am) you should be in favor of contraception. Plus it would solve many of the problems in the third world. sorry bsb but the Malthusian trap is a real thing and a major source of their woes. The more one accrues human capital, the more one can earn and thus save, thus the capital labour ratio goes up, then wage goes up again. This gets fucked over if an increase wage creates a larger increase in fertility, in which case capital labour ratio goes down again. this is the case in much of the third world. anyway, abortion bad, contraception good.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 3:58 p.m. CST

    I enjoyed Nixon this looks remarkably similar

    by G100

    Brolin is clearly trying for more than an "impression" as did Hopkins. Nixon was an interesting if hardly perfect film. This is looking much the same.<p> <p>And Darth Machio I'm 100% sure your view of Bush not being a Republican is shared by McCains Political handlers. Though how McCain will square that with his appearing with Bush at the Convention, backing him to the hilt on the Economy and Iraq and whether the public will buy it come November are somewhat less clear.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Macchio- totally.

    by samsquanch

    not my father's republican party, that's for damn sure.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 4:51 p.m. CST

    Darth Macchio dont we run the risk of creating a

    by Phategod2

    Real life Bane, or V or some half cocked super soldier.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 4:52 p.m. CST

    Darth & Abom. Abortion and faith

    by toadkillerdog

    It IS a faith issue. For those of strong faith abortion is a very cut and dried issue. Life not only begins at conception, but the Soul -the God given blessing of life, is present as well.<p> For those of strong morality who do not possess faith, but rely on scientific proof, the slope becomes slippery. People without faith, can just as or possess greater morality than those with. They can decide that life begins at conception without believing in God. But, those without faith would likely be more prone to believing that although living, a zygote is not a human being, and thus they can rationalize an abortion.<p> Certainly, people of faith have made that exact same rationalization. I am also certain that regardless if they had faith or not, it was agonizing to most. The key difference though, is if people of the same morality - whether they had faith or not, came to the same decision to have an abortion, how many times would the person of faith believing they were killing a living soul, how many times would they change their minds and have the child, as opposed to the person of non-faith?<p> I certainly do not have an answer. <p> The only present way it can be solvable is if the inhabitants of a country were entirely religious (against abortion), or entirely secular (pro-choice). Even then it would still come down to majority rule. Since those types of countries are exceedingly rare, my guess is that it will take the advent of technology (Ironic) - in the form of artificial wombs, before this issue becomes less divisive. But even that will not solve the problem, and will undoubtedly cause even more arguments over 'man playing God'. <p> Abom, while I agree that the choice is made before conception - in most circumstances, there are always exceptions. Such as: Incest, rape, or the certain death of the Mother if she gives birth. To the most militant anti-abortion supporters, no exceptions are to be made because any crack will allow a flood.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 4:54 p.m. CST

    half baked

    by samsquanch

    i hear you. This calls into debate the definition of 'consciousness' itself, right? Can you be considered conscious if you are driving, talking on your cell, and checking facebook on your laptop in the passenger seat? debate.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 4:57 p.m. CST

    This looks terrible.

    by RetroActive

    Terrible!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 5:07 p.m. CST

    This is an issue just now because of McCains poss. VEEP

    by G100

    AS the Religious right are pressing him hard for a strong anti-abortion candidate.<p> <p>It has to be said it also has some bearing on the Democratic campaign as some of the disgruntled Hillary fanatics would have far less qualms about switching to McCain if he had a pro-choice VEEP.<p> <p>Also potential isn't a human life it's the potential for one.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 5:32 p.m. CST

    Fuck Dubbya

    by The7Returns

    If the Repubs win this time, it's time for civil war, PERIOD. Let the fucking blood flow here, and see how many of these NeoCon fucks are 'good' with endless war.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 5:35 p.m. CST

    Stone doesn't have the balls anyway..this will prob suck.

    by The7Returns

    Instead of investigating all the evidence that 9/11 was an inside job, he chose to make a movie about 'rah rah America!!'. Where the FUCK did the director who gave us so many anti-establishment films disappear to?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 5:41 p.m. CST

    More to the topic tho..yeah Brolin is doing fine.

    by The7Returns

    I still think No Country sucked and was way overated tho.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 5:55 p.m. CST

    Christian Iconography

    by Half-Baked-Goggle-Box-Do-Gooder

    I always had a problem with the traditional image of Jeebus as the Shepherd of the Flock..........Yeah, sure, he protected us from the Big Bad Wolf, but once we're all corraled back at the chopping block.....You don't see a lot of sheep dying of Old Age, if you know what I mean. Sorry, but it Jus' Don't Add Up.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 6:36 p.m. CST

    DAMAGE_INC

    by BringingSexyBack

    Sorry I misspelled the URL. It's http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/ (take out the spaces).

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 6:37 p.m. CST

    I AGREE WITH THE7RETURNS ON NO COUNTRY

    by BringingSexyBack

    Excuse me but ... how in the fuck did that win the Oscar over TWBB?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:19 p.m. CST

    McCain clueless about how many houses he owns

    by G100

    I know, some seniors occasionally forget where they put their keys. However forgetting how many houses you own in an interview ?<p> <p>Ouch!<p> <p>It's 7 BTW.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:23 p.m. CST

    Nazi Pedophile Pope: Links

    by LaserPants

    Resistance against the Nazi's was impossible? Really? Than what about all the people who actually resisted them?! Its a cop-out from an ultraconservative nazi pedophile. Here are just a few links, but there are literally hundreds on the Nazi thing:<br><br> http://tinyurl.com/48pe9g<br> http://tinyurl.com/6qsdol<br><br>On the pedophile thing, although its true there is no evidence that he ever diddled the kids himself, he sure as shit did his damnedest to cover up for his priests who did! The Catholic Church, then, is a child rape factory that actively condones the molestation of innocent children. Period. Again, there are literally hundreds of links, here are just a couple:<br><br> http://tinyurl.com/5bjfhj<br> http://tinyurl.com/4dfvje<br><br> Again just a couple here, but it is a matter of public record that Pope Ratzinger is a nazi pedophile, or at the very least, a nazi pedophile apologist. Of course, being "god's rottweiler," he doesn't feel it is necessary to take any blame for his and his cult's crimes and so he skates off scott free in his silly hat and robes which no doubt conceal freshly raped children and a dog-eared, heavily annotated copy of Mein Kampf.<br><br> Seems to me that anyone who actually listened to and followed the words of Christ rather than just chant the brand name over and over again, would condemn this motherfucker and his twisted cult of child-raping sociopaths. But, hey, clearly the Christians are the ones most farthest removed from the teachings of their god; they just don't understand it. Pity the poor fools. Perhaps someday the scales will fall from their eyes and they will see the truth and be redeemed.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:24 p.m. CST

    BSexyB

    by The7Returns

    Yeah....I agree. There There Will Be Blood deserved the nod more. The prob with No Country is it had some great moments, but fell FLAT on it's face in the third act.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:25 p.m. CST

    Nazi Pedophile Pope: Links (Edit)

    by LaserPants

    Resistance against the Nazi's was impossible? Really? Than what about all the people who actually resisted them?! Its a cop-out from an ultraconservative nazi pedophile. Here are just a few links, but there are literally hundreds on the Nazi thing:<br><br> http://tinyurl.com/48pe9g<br> http://tinyurl.com/6qsdol<br><br> On the pedophile thing, although its true there is no evidence that he ever diddled the kids himself, he sure as shit did his damnedest to cover up for his priests who did! The Catholic Church, then, is a child rape factory that actively condones the molestation of innocent children. Period. Again, there are literally hundreds of links, here are just a couple:<br><br> http://tinyurl.com/5bjfhj<br> http://tinyurl.com/4dfvje<br><br> Again just a couple here, but it is a matter of public record that Pope Ratzinger is a nazi pedophile, or at the very least, a nazi pedophile apologist. Of course, being "god's rottweiler," he doesn't feel it is necessary to take any blame for his and his cult's crimes and so he skates off scott free in his silly hat and robes which no doubt conceal freshly raped children and a dog-eared, heavily annotated copy of Mein Kampf.<br><br> Seems to me that anyone who actually listened to and followed the words of Christ rather than just chant the brand name over and over again, would condemn this motherfucker and his twisted cult of child-raping sociopaths. But, hey, clearly the Christians are the ones most farthest removed from the teachings of their god; they just don't understand it. Pity the poor fools. Perhaps someday the scales will fall from their eyes and they will see the truth and be redeemed.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:27 p.m. CST

    Nazi Pedophile Pope: Links (Edit AGAIN)

    by LaserPants

    Resistance against the Nazi's was impossible? Really? Than what about all the people who actually resisted them?! Its a cop-out from an ultraconservative nazi pedophile. Here are just a few links, but there are literally hundreds on the Nazi thing:<br><br> http://tinyurl.com/48pe9g<br> http://tinyurl.com/6qsdol<br><br> On the pedophile thing, although its true there is no evidence that he ever diddled the kids himself, he sure as shit did his damnedest to cover up for his priests who did! The Catholic Church, then, is a child rape factory that actively condones the molestation of innocent children. Period. Again, there are literally hundreds of links, here are just a couple:<br><br> http://tinyurl.com/5bjfhj<br> http://tinyurl.com/4dfvje<br><br> Again just a couple here, but it is a matter of public record that Pope Ratzinger is a nazi pedophile, or at the very least, a nazi pedophile apologist. Of course, being "god's rottweiler," he doesn't feel it is necessary to take any blame for his and his cult's crimes and so he skates off scott free in his silly hat and robes which no doubt conceal freshly raped children and a dog-eared, heavily annotated copy of Mein Kampf.<br><br> Seems to me that anyone who actually listened to and followed the words of Christ rather than just chant the brand name over and over again, would condemn this motherfucker and his twisted cult of child-raping sociopaths. But, hey, clearly the Christians are the ones most farthest removed from the teachings of their god; they just don't understand it. Pity the poor fools. Perhaps someday the scales will fall from their eyes and they will see the truth and be redeemed.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:29 p.m. CST

    LINKS AGAIN EDIT

    by LaserPants

    Jesus. Okay. Nazi stuff:<br><br> http://tinyurl.com/48pe9g<br> http://tinyurl.com/6qsdol<br><br> Pedophile stuff:<br><br> http://tinyurl.com/5bjfhj<br> http://tinyurl.com/4dfvje<br>

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:43 p.m. CST

    he also killed jr

    by chipps

    and gave ol yella rabies

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 7:47 p.m. CST

    actually, he only shot jr

    by chipps

    but he has stolen candy from a baby. a baby he RAPED.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 8:10 p.m. CST

    LOL Liberal Warrior...

    by The7Returns

    .....how typically 'Christian' of you...LOL. Guess that 'forgiveness' thing isn't clicking with ya then? LOL

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 8:11 p.m. CST

    LiberalWarrior..I DARE YOU

    by The7Returns

    ..to go into your church and call someone you don't like a "fukking dried piece of monkey shit". I DARE YOU!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 8:24 p.m. CST

    "feminazi "It's our bodies" people"

    by HoboCode

    You're a depicable human being, Snowcunt. Fucking asshole.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 8:29 p.m. CST

    Yeah say it in your cults church tough guy

    by The7Returns

    Do it.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 8:33 p.m. CST

    Why shoudln't he?

    by HoboCode

    Christianity preaches peace and lvoe they neighbor, right? LibWar shouldn't have any problems. If not for the fact that everyone in there is a hypocrtical ignorant fascist that is.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 8:38 p.m. CST

    i think

    by chipps

    that the number one criticisms of organized religion is that it can be used to preach intolerance. If people wanna belive in ufos or space gods or david copperfield, well, it's kooky, but unless it leads to intolerance it is stupid but benign. When an atheist responds rabidly toward it, they undercut the best part of their own argument.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 8:53 p.m. CST

    Yeah good luck with that asshole LOL

    by The7Returns

    Christians: Constantly proving they have absolutely no clue! IF there is a 'God' , you do realize he's laughing his ass off at you? Rhetorical...I don't expect a reasonable response from an idiot like you.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 8:55 p.m. CST

    And you just contradicted yourself moron Warrior

    by The7Returns

    You said you didn't profess to being better than anyone, then turned around and called us dickwipes. LOL...I guess if you're not 'better than' ,that makes you a dickwipe too! LMFAO!!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:01 p.m. CST

    Alanmoore, science cannot determine morality

    by AntoniusBloc

    <p>Because it is limited by the very premise you state: the philosophy of materialism. The scientific method of proof is based on a presupposition that only the material world exists. So science analyzes physical data, and determines physical facts. It doesn not determine what is morally right and wrong, and due to its materialistic limitation, does not and cannot determine if objective morality exists. So, for you to state it simply as fact begs the question. Based on your materialistic premise, morality is logically subjective. But you're materialistic premise cannot be proven, and our Constitution is not based on a materialistic premise, fortunately. </p> I think there is a stronger argument that our laws are based more on an assumption that objective morality exists, logically founded on the existence of God, as opposed to a universe that is purely material and all morality is subjective. So those of you claiming outrightly that morality is subjective, I challenge you to prove it without arguing in a circle. Read all of our founding documents, I doubt you could show that our laws are based on that materialistic assumption. So, Darth M, an answer can be determined, and science contributes to the answer that abortion should be illegal. Whether you call it a zygote, it IS life, and taking of a life is morally wrong and illegal, especially an innocent life. Chipps brought up the specific legal example of violently attacking a pregnant woman, and that under most legal systems, the criminal would be punished for harming or killing both the mother and the baby inside. So, I now move to the argument of common sense. Common sense is the most democratic argument one can make because the 'common' refers to Tradition, to what Chesterton called 'the democracy of the dead'. Common sense tells us that it is not a stretch for me to call the life inside the womb a 'baby'. So, does it matter if you kill the baby inside the womb or outside the womb? It is still killing. Location shouldn't matter. It is a baby, another life, another set of rights protected by our laws, not JUST the mother's rights. </p> And again, I point out the problem with Obama's answer of skepticism. Skepticism of whether or not the fetus, the zygote, or the baby inside the womb is a life does not justify killing it. You wouldn't run over a man shaped overcoat in the road if you weren't sure if it was just an overcoat or if there were actually a person inside. If you're a hunter in the woods and see movement in the bushes, and are unsure if it is a deer or a fellow hunter, the moral thing to do is to not shoot. <p/> Also, as we have learned with global warming, politics influences science, philosophies influence science, and can even distort facts. Before Roe v. Wade scientists agreed that life began at conception because that is when the genetic code was complete. Technology has further confirmed that it is life as mentioned above. Yet an intellectual like Obama has trouble with that simple fact. His elitism has interfered with his common sense. He denies both common sense and science. Science can confirm the fact that it is life. Common sense morality tells us we shouldn't take that life. That life, no matter its location, has rights.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:16 p.m. CST

    Hey Libby.

    by HoboCode

    I'm on your side, chief, in case you hadn't noticed.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:24 p.m. CST

    Abortion

    by HoboCode

    You guys are making this about science when it should be about civil rights. Whether life begins at conception shouldn't even be the issue. The issue is whether a woman should be forced against her will to bring a child to term, an utterly sickening thought that shouldn't even be up for debate. It's astonishing to me how little regard there is for a woman's basic right to decide what hsppens to her own body. Wake up!

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:26 p.m. CST

    LibWar

    by HoboCode

    Are you a Liberal wArrior or a Christian Warrior. Can't be both my friend. I wa smerely poiting out the hypocrisy of the majority of the so-called faithful.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:30 p.m. CST

    It is not an issue of faith....here's why...

    by Darth Macchio

    ...because all of you are wondering when life begins. When is the zygote a human being or a 'person', so forth and so on. This is ultimately semantics and unproductive to the real argument. It does not matter when the zygote is a person, abortion is the cessation of life what will eventually be a human being. Why does it matter when this ambiguously defined 'personhood' occurs as to whether or not science or religious faith must step in to reinforce or intercede?<p>And speaking of faith, which faith? Yours? A Jew's? Muslim? An Atheist's faith in science? A single person's faith in themselves to do the right thing? By who's faith shall we make our rules? By who's faith will we utilize to determine if the fetus is a living person? See where I'm going with this? With all due respect, you make the mistake that your faith is representative of all faiths. That you "know better" by virtue of your faith, which is by definition, a private thing, invariably subjective. Or that simply faith alone will always do the right thing when it comes to the domain of another person's body. Or more ominous, only religious faith will guide you to the right thing. I won't even go into the various histories of the oldest religions and their notions of faith and how it applies to people, especially women. But faith is how YOU come to terms with issue such as abortion. That faith is not backed up by anything other than your belief which makes it no less important. My faith comes from science which says that the moment that egg is fertilized, it is a developing human being. Call it a person if you want...it is not wrong to call a 'puppy' a 'dog' after all; but it does not matter to the science.<p>After the egg is fertilized, it is a living thing period. A developing human being. No arguments.<p>There is no scientific basis for calling it anything other than what it is, a developing person; terms like 'zygote' and 'embryo' demarcate phases in development more so than what the mass of living tissue is at any given time. Otherwise, why bother with different names? Sure, biologists will tell you there's more to it than that but at the end of the day: zygote, embryo, fetus, unborn child - they're all stages in the development of a human being; not absolute descriptions of what we are at any given time. No, determining when "personhood" occurs does not grant or remove the truth from what is occurring within a woman's womb.<p>This argument exists outside of the womb and this is one reason those of faith overlook the notion of controlling another person's body even if they do something that violates their every notion of decency.<p>Saving the developing human being from destruction. Death, if you prefer; is a matter of at what point does a woman's body no longer under her own jurisdiction and at what point does she get that liberty back? Why is it that for 9 months, her body is not her own if you are determined to save the developing human? I think there is no answer to this because to save the life of the developing human being, which is a noble thing, also violates the sanctity a living human being has with her own body, which is a vile thing. It puts the needs of one (developing human) over the needs of another (pregnant woman) but more importantly, the decision is made by an outside entity (those against abortion for everyone, not just themselves). No answer.<p> <p> <p>And from there, it is the realm of opinion. Which, like faith, is entirely subjective.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:30 p.m. CST

    HoboCode

    by chipps

    it is a good point, and yet we jail a women who takes drugs while pregnant, or breastfeeding. I in fact know a girl who was pretty much stoned 100% of her waking hours while pregnant, brought the baby to term and continues to smoke weed while breast feeding. Despite the know effects of this type of behavior, does she have the right to decide what happens to her body?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:36 p.m. CST

    Great post Darth.

    by HoboCode

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:37 p.m. CST

    ie

    by chipps

    the right to drink to pints of whiskey a day or whatever.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:45 p.m. CST

    chipps

    by HoboCode

    Yes. But she and her peers also have a responsibility to seek treatment for her. And they aren't going to get that by being thrown in jail.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:50 p.m. CST

    The7Returns...

    by Banzai Rootskibango

    ...civil war between conservatives and liberals? <P> Conservatives have all the guns. Libs are always trying to get them banned. <P> Civil War begins. <P> 28 Minutes later whatever Liberals are left are flying to France. <P> Next day, America nukes France. <P> Oliver Stone makes a shitty movie about it. <P> Three years later, someone makes a shitty remake of the original shitty movie.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:52 p.m. CST

    well she wasn't

    by chipps

    but that is child abuse. which is illegal. Our society has no problem saying that we have a responsibility to make sure our actions don't negatively effect other people. The reason that same logic is not applied in this case is that it does require telling people what to do, which in of itself is morally ambiguous.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 9:53 p.m. CST

    Banzai

    by HoboCode

    That was pretty funny dude.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:01 p.m. CST

    lol

    by chipps

    wouldn't oliver stone be in france?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:02 p.m. CST

    child abuse

    by HoboCode

    only if you consider it a child. I'm not taking a stance either way because I conside it moot. Regardless taking drugs is illegal itself so the most likely scenario is that is that if she has given birth the child would hopefully tbe taken away and put in social services until the woman either got out of jail or sought treatment. Or if it's an unborn child then there is a case that the woman is not mentally fit to make decisions regarding her pregnancy, which is an entirely different thing.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:03 p.m. CST

    fuckin' eh,

    by Stevie Grant

    abortion debates are pointless because one side believes it is a personal choice to be made by the lucky lady, cause it's her body... and the other side no longer believes it's just her body. People arguing the same point based off different assumptions just ain't going to see eye to eye. "."

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:03 p.m. CST

    btw

    by chipps

    when i read myself i thought 'didn't that already happen?' the conservatives tried to leave the union and the liberals wouldn't let them.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:20 p.m. CST

    I made no mistake Darth

    by toadkillerdog

    I said it is a matter of faith, and I stand by that. I made no mention of which religious faith I choose to follow - or not. And by the way the word faith extends beyond the simple religious definition. But I will stipulate for this discussion that I was using it to describe religious faith. In your zeal to discredit the influence of faith you overlooked what I wrote about those of non-faith. I said that people of non faith (religious) can have just as much or even greater morality than those who possess faith. Some one who does not have religious faith can firmly believe that life starts at conception. That is not in debate.<p> Now, as to why it is a matter of faith. Nearly 76% of Adults in the United States profess to be Christian. Let that number sink in. 76%. Multiple Polls have been conducted that consistently show that over 90% of Americans believe in God. Let that number sink in. <p> Faith. <p> Belief in God. Faith. <p> I said earlier that the key distinction between those of faith and non-faith who are agonizing over an abortion decision, may come down to whether or not you believe that a God given soul is present at the time of conception.<p> People of faith have had abortions. People of non-faith have refused to have an abortion. But when all is equal. When people of equal morality have to make the agonizing decsion to have an abortion or not, how many times will the person of faith, the person who believes that they would be killing a unique soul, rely on their faith to guide them into not having the abortion as opposed to those who do not have faith? <p> In a country that professes to be 76% Christian, faith matters. When it comes to making the most difficult decision that anyone will ever be confronted with, to the majority of this country - that professes to believe in God, faith matters.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:31 p.m. CST

    Chipps...

    by Banzai Rootskibango

    ...you got me, brother...you're totally right lol

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 10:35 p.m. CST

    Toad, I believe...

    by Darth Macchio

    ..we misunderstood each other. I did not mean to infer any zeal one way or the other..I was actually doing my best to be as objective as possible with the overall argument. This is ultimately, and obviously, impossible and I can site a few times specifically where my point stretched to subjectivity. But my overall point backs up your belief before faith, or God, or religion even comes into play. Whether I believe or you believe does not stop the scientific fact that abortion is killing a living developing human being.<p>As to faith, I do not at all mean to belittle yours, I hope that is not what you took from my point. Apologies, for my lack of clarity, if you did. My point was your faith in Christianity is merely one facet in the impossibly huge range of definitions of faith. That makes it no less important than any other. Be it yours, or mine. Whether 76% percent or 1%, all faith is valid. And no faith, mine or yours, should be removed from the discussion due to majority rule.<p>I also attempted to avoid giving my opinion on abortion. My objective goal was to stand outside of the human condition to first define the parameters of the argument. Silly or pretentious perhaps but important to ultimately realize that a solution to this argument ultimately denies the humanity of someone..a boy, a girl, a woman...denies them of their humanity. If the Universe is at all a just place, then that should be an offense to all living things.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:01 p.m. CST

    LiberalWarrior

    by chipps

    are you in favor of gun control? free public education? free hospitals?

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:03 p.m. CST

    So do we prosecute fertility Doctors for "murdering" eggs ?

    by G100

    Nope.<p> <p>And the fact of the matter is both the sperm and the egg are "alive" so where is the outrage for the monthly death toll of potential humans that are expelled in the natural course of a womans cycle or the untiold trillions of sperm that can equally be classified as potential humans ?<p> <p>Fact is, any Biologist will tell you that cells are the basic building blocks of life as well as being alive themselves and they now have the potential to BECOME a seperate human life using cloning. So do those who believe a fertilised egg is sacrosanct now extend that classification to any cell from which the process can occur not just stem cells but other cells that can yield the same results ?<p> <p>NO, it's not as childishly simple as some would like to think. A potential human life is not a human.<p> <p>Morphogenesis is an incredibly complex process that takes TIME. And from it the egg can eventually transform into a human child. But potential is not the same as actual.<p> <p>I suggest you look up Fetal Rights to se the unholy complicated mess that this issue brings up never mind the rights of a fertilised egg or a sperm.<p> <p>There is a body of scientific opinion that says if the developing child is viable outside the womb THEN it should be granted rights and protections available to other humans. Problem is that isn't a black and white line either as Technology keeps shifting it.<p> <p>My point is still that those at the sharp end of the medical procedures and technology must always be consulted (demonising them is frankly idiotic) with Politicians reflecting the social morays of the time with input from groups that no doubt include the scientific community and the large but by no means homogenous religious groups as well as the groups of women concerned about a return to back street abortions and womens rights.<p> <p>But if the process is short -cricuited with the Religious groups over-riding popular or scientific common sense then expect trouble.<p> <p>You also don't need to be religious to have faith and you don't need to have faith to be moral as far as I can see but that is, after all, just an opinion.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:24 p.m. CST

    Darth

    by toadkillerdog

    No misunderstanding. I knew what you were saying. I knew you were trying to present the non-believer, but still very moral viewpoint, that life begins at conception. You did a very good job of presenting your argument. But I laid out in my previous posts where faith is the major determinent for the majority of THIS country. 76% is no trivial number. 90% is even less so. Those numbers represent the adults who profess to be Christianity and believe in God, respectively. Any decision of the magnitude of abortion, will, be made with the faith of those making the decision - which in this country constitutes 76% Christian belief and 90% belief in God, weighing heavily. That is why it is a matter of faith. And that is where we differ. I say it is a matter of faith, you say it is not. The majority of this country believes in God, and the majority of those, are Christians. <p> Those who do not have faith, or who look down on those who do, can not know what it means to really believe. I am not talking about paying lip service, I mean real faith that you call upon when trying to make difficult decisions. <p>

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:37 p.m. CST

    G100

    by toadkillerdog

    If you believe that life begins at conception, that a God given soul is present from the moment of conception, then all else becomes moot. <p> Cloning will present other problems, but since it ultimately is a copy of an existing human (if only in body and not mind), I think the eventually most will come to believe that a unique soul is also present.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:40 p.m. CST

    toadkillerdog

    by chipps

    without going into the nature of the soul it is clear that identical twins are separate individuals. A clone is little more than an identical twin, born at a different time.

  • Aug. 21, 2008, 11:47 p.m. CST

    chipps

    by toadkillerdog

    I agree. But The legal/moral/ethical battles will be intense once an actual viable human clone can be produced. How do you classify it? Is it the child of the donor? A seoarate entity? Is it the child of the parents of the donor - even if they did not consent to have another child? is it their grandchild? What inheritance rights will it possess? The argument over its soul, will only be the beginning. And I think it may actually be the easiest.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 12:29 a.m. CST

    Banzai..you have me confused for a label.

    by The7Returns

    I don't do labels. I'm against this war, and most wars the good ol USA has fought (including the Civil War where the South got screwed out of their rights). But I'm not a pascifist, so I'd gladly stick a bullet or a knife in these right wing, nutcases of any type, if it might mean a future for the generations to come if we committed to a 2nd civil war. Prob more accurately wold be a Revolution tho. <p> As good ol TJ said " refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants" and all. Well...the tyrants now call themselves patriots, and it's time to change all that. If Obama can't be the start, it's time to seriously start considering it. BECAUSE as Adams said (I believe this was actually John Quincy tho):<p> "Well, posterity, you will never know what it cost us to preserve your freedom. I only hope that you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in heaven that I ever took half the pains to preserve it."<p> Well IF there is a heaven, he's done gone and rolled over more than you can count. <p> Oh , and I support the second amendment thanx. It was designed so that our leaders never should have more power than the puplic. So much for that.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 12:30 a.m. CST

    *public

    by The7Returns

    n/t

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 1:09 a.m. CST

    toadkillerdog that's one belief certainly

    by G100

    And if you believe that a soul develops from a nascent potentiality in parallel with the ongoing development of the body and mind of the egg/fetus ?<p> <p>Or if you believe that self-awareness/consiousness is the point at which the soul suddenly sparks into being ?<p> <p>Or if you believe that the DNA of the father and mother contained in the egg and sperm have proto-souls.<p>Or if you believe that souls are as varied and different in their exact origin point and maturation as people themsleves ?<p>Or if you believe in any one of the myriad interpretations and beliefs held by religions around the world about the soul it's origin and it's purpose ?<p> <p>I simply don't subscribe to the view that there is one simple default belief when we enter into the metaphysical realm of "souls".<p> <p>That fertilisation might mark a boolean off/on point is certainly one belief. But by no means is it the only one.<p> <p>And my point about cloning wasn't about soul-less clones it was about potentiality becoming more complex. It's the fact that cloning is not dependant on "normal" fertilisation as we used to understand it. Thereby changing the relationship and importance of the egg and sperm and making the simple cause and effect, that was until recently taken for granted, a good deal less simple.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 7:32 a.m. CST

    G100

    by toadkillerdog

    I was only presenting one side.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 9:30 a.m. CST

    LiberalChristianWarrior

    by HoboCode

    You're either a fucking idiot who can't read or just a walking contradiction. I thgink you might be the one who needs to look up the word liberal. Now tell me I'm twice fukked something or other.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 9:34 a.m. CST

    A woman and her body

    by rock-me Amodeo

    It's always amazing to me how many pro-choice arguments come down to this phrase. Just to play devils advocate, if a woman is having a boy, does she have a penis, or is it the zygote/fetus/embryo/baby/boy have a penis? I would maintain that the woman does not have a penis. So it's not HER body. I mean, really. She should have a say in what happens to HER body, sure. But the baby is not HER body. It's IN her body. That is big distinction.<br><br> and if that's the case, then does the baby/fetus/embryo/boy have any civil rights regarding HIS body? Hmmm...

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 10:28 a.m. CST

    rock-me Amodeo

    by HoboCode

    If men got preganant this wouldn't even be an issue and that's a fact. Sorry dude, but you're a sexist.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Wow, Brolin sure has the Bush-speak down pat!

    by morGoth

    Eh, I think I'll check this out just to see how well Brolin carries off the whole thing. I agree though...the timing on this stinks.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 11:49 a.m. CST

    Ah, the curious questions of life and death.

    by morGoth

    So, taking an absolutist stance that all life is sacred, at any stage, therefore makes abortion an act of murder…do I have that right? Well then, a person holding that belief is, by default, a pacifist, yes? I’m positive that in prosecuting a war, innocent life will be taken whether it’s in the womb or not. If you know about collateral damage (see: Oops! Didn’t mean for that 2,000 lb laser guided smart bomb to go stupid and take out the apartment block instead of the ZSU-23 anti-aircraft gun emplacement!) and the certainty that “innocent life” will assuredly be taken, is there such a thing as “just war?” Seems like a contradiction to me, at best, and appalling hypocrisy at worst. But then the church, like governments, will rationalize anything. Same with those who oppose abortion because they don’t want their precious tax dollars funding a Planned Parenthood clinic…stop paying taxes because some of your money goes to supporting the armed forces (see: collateral damage) also. If you’re going to claim the moral high ground, then stick to it and don’t stand for the taking of a human life, period. Otherwise, welcome to the real and very messy world of few absolutes and plenty of grey areas.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 11:55 a.m. CST

    morGoth

    by HoboCode

    Not to mention that many pro-life activists support capital punishment.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 11:59 a.m. CST

    Toad...

    by Darth Macchio

    We must agree to disagree my friend. Please try to understand that even if 6,999,999,999 people believed as you did, and 1 person did not, that you forcing that one person to your belief is still a microscopic version of religious tyranny. Morality should never be "enforced" (it is not a moral thing to enforce morality) but more to the point, it cannot be decided much less enforced through democracy; abortion is NOT a political issue.<p>If the majority was against your faith, would you remain silent as they dismissed you or your faith or committed acts utterly against your faith? Of course not! Do not ask those of different faith to shut up simply because they are in the minority. And also please know that I understand that your reluctance in accepting the faith of others in the abortion context is both intrinsic to your beliefs by dogma as well as tied to the notion of saving an unborn child.<p>I don't have any problem with your faith until you insist I believe the same way as you.<p>Well, an unborn child cannot fend for him or herself if the mother is to abort the fetus. So I'd be a hypocrite if I did not acknowledge that my belief is justified until it is enforced on another, including the unborn. There is no question that an unborn, developing human, qualifies as an "other" and, as such, must be afforded a claim in the debate. Since they cannot speak for themselves, someone must stand up and say that, like it or not, it is wrong to stop the life of any living thing, whether born or unborn. It is a noble thing to do this but it does not automatically make you right. It does not remove the fact that to accomplish your views, you must deny a woman the dignity of determining her own biological fate. And yes, horrible as it may be, that even means she has the right to terminate the pregnancy as she sees fit. I acknowledge that it is killing a developing human but until that human is outside of her body, you do not have the right to dismiss the woman anymore than anyone has the right to dismiss the unborn.<p>Now, in point of fact, I find aborting a child more wrong than forcing a woman to do what I believe. But I also cannot condone forcing a woman to live by my beliefs either, while you can. That is the difference between us. I hope you can respect that. I've done my best to respect your view but to continue to insist your faith is the only valid faith will only draw us, or others, unnecessarily into a pissing contest in which I will not participate. Not because you are right and I'm wrong, or even that I am right, but because it is a pointless fight without an answer.<p>I do not know the mind of God or even if there is a God or some singular divinity or 'supreme being' or even pretend to understand the mysteries of the Universe. You claim different, that is fine and I'll respect that. That difference doesn't make you right simply because you hold it...it just makes your opinion different than mine.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 12:10 p.m. CST

    The7Returns

    by HoboCode

    That quote is John Adams, not Quincy. The HBO miniseries ends with Paul Giamatti reciting it anyway.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 12:18 p.m. CST

    Darth, WTF?

    by toadkillerdog

    Are you just typing to try and make a point? Did you even read what I wrote? I am not pushing my faith or belief on anyone. I merely laid out why I believe that to the MAJORITY of this country who beleive in GOD - 90%(that includes all faiths BTW) and the 76% who profess to follow Christianity (which in a country of @330 million equates to 250 miilion people) by those numbers alone, the matter of abortion comes down to faith in an overwhelming majority of the cases. Here again is what I wrote " Any decision of the magnitude of abortion, will, be made with the faith of those making the decision - which in this country constitutes 76% Christian belief and 90% belief in God, weighing heavily. That is why it is a matter of faith. And that is where we differ. I say it is a matter of faith, you say it is not. The majority of this country believes in God, and the majority of those, are Christians. Those who do not have faith, or who look down on those who do, can not know what it means to really believe. I am not talking about paying lip service, I mean real faith that you call upon when trying to make difficult decisions. " <p> Now, to clarify. faith, is not exclsuive to Christianity. The belief in a soul is not exclusive to Christianity. The belief that Abortion is murder - is not exclusive to Christianity.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 12:44 p.m. CST

    Question...

    by morGoth

    ...how many of you remeber life in the womb? Do you have any memories of looking out the ol' belly-button window?<p>Right you are HoboCode...same as the concept of colatteral damage: If you know innocent lives will be taken (see: wrongly convicted, circumstantial evidence, etc.), how can you justify the death penalty? Aren't you then a murderer too?

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 12:50 p.m. CST

    Lol...of course I'm trying to make a point by typing...

    by Darth Macchio

    I read everything you wrote. I understood it as well. Perhaps you did not understand what I wrote? We agree abortion is ending the life of an unborn child (although I still think establishing 'personhood' is irrelevant...it IS ending the life of an unborn human. nuff said!). We disagree that it is ok to force a woman to your beliefs which are based on your faith. Neither of us are going to actually enforce our beliefs on one another I'm sure. I did not mean to imply otherwise. We disagree. How American is that? It is perfectly American and the very spirit of our democracy! Let's leave it at that. I'm tired of repeating myself and worry that anything I say will seem a slight towards you. In the spirit of honorable debate, that would not remotely be my intent. Keep the faith! Cheers to you!

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 12:50 p.m. CST

    morGoth

    by toadkillerdog

    Life aint easy dude. Compromises are made every day. Abortion is an issue that will never ever truly be resolved. It incites genuine passions pro and con. There is no doubt that some people tie themselves into hypocritical knots over this issue. But I think the rationalization goes something like this: Abortion is unacceptable because the unborn child is a complete innocent without protection of any sort. Yes, some of those very same people support capital punishment and wars. You will even find members of the clergy who oppose capital punishment and abortion, but support a 'just war' or the killing of someone in order to prevent to murder of another innocent - such as when the police must use deadly force to stop someone from killing another. Compromises and rationalizations are the ultimate proof that we are merely human, and are flawed. It does not mean that taking a stance against abortion, but supporting capital punishment, or vice versa in wrong. It means we have made moral judgements to the best of our abilities.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 12:56 p.m. CST

    One last bit....

    by Darth Macchio

    Full disclosure...my presumption and thus my take that those of faith are 'enforcing' their beliefs on others is the push to have Roe V Wade overturned. If you are against abortion but not looking to get Roe V Wade overturned, then I salute you sir on your beliefs and your tolerance to allow other to believe as they see fit. This is the usual goal of those against abortion. If it is not your goal, then I apologize for the presumption.<p>Now I will stop talking! (phew!)<p>Cheers!

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 1:04 p.m. CST

    Darth

    by toadkillerdog

    I never said a woman should be forced to my beliefs. I never even mentioned what my beliefs are. I never once stated my position on abortion. I never said anyone should be forced one way or another. I was merely presenting a Christian point of view towards abortion and the reliance on faith of those who believe. Stop trying to read your own views into my words. I am a believer in God. It appears that you are not. However, I have stated repeatedly that belief does not make me or anyone else a better person than a non-believer. I stated that faith may provide the believer, in times of stress or having to make a hard decison, with a greater ability to make a more morally informed and spiritual decision. In the specific case of abortion, when all else is equal, between a believer and a non-believer, if they both made the decision to have an abortion, it is more likely that the believer, at the last minute would choose not to have the abortion based upon their beleif that a soul - a God given soul, would be destroyed. <p> I never once said what I feel about abortion. I never once said I would ever impose my faith or belief on anyone. THAT is why I said - read what I wrote.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 1:33 p.m. CST

    SOLUTION FOR HARDENED CRIMINALS

    by BringingSexyBack

    Human batteries. Nuff said!

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 1:56 p.m. CST

    Congrats...u got the last word...

    by Darth Macchio

    ...as I'm sick of talking about this. I don't care what you think and I'm sure you don't care what I think.<p>Ask BSB, I never even intend to get into these types of debates as its the equivalent to banging your head against a wall. I prefer the fun and silly TB's as I don't think an online forum is the proper place for a debate of this nature.<p>You think I'm not reading what you said and I think your not reading what I said. The age old disagreement of 2 parties ensues due to lack of successful communication!<p>You also don't know if I believe in God or not but apparently inferred atheism from context; context I specifically said was an attempt to be as objective as 'humanly' possible and not related to my personal beliefs. You don't know my beliefs anymore than I know yours. Wonderful. Who cares! Let's leave it at that. Cheers!<p>I still think a movie about Bush is too soon!

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 2:15 p.m. CST

    IT'S TRUE - MACCHIO NEVER GETS INTO THESE THINGS

    by BringingSexyBack

    He keeps it light, but if you want my two cents (of course you do), I think your exchange was worthwhile. Even if you didn't see eye to eye, it was an intelligent conversation. Made respective parties think. That's always worthwhile. <p> Now here's my prediction for Obama's VP: Chuck Hagel. Mark my words. Take it to the bank. Et cetera!!!

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Oh I understand just fine toadkillerdog...

    by morGoth

    ...but locking up a convicted murderer for life (unless he escapes or kills another inmate) will also prevent that individual from killing more people. Unless one is (a) god, how can you know for a fact that someone, or a collective group of people, is going to kill others in the future? Sure, if a cop would've been eating his Chicken McNuggetts at a McDonalds across the street where the guy killed all those school children (really, an AK-47 doesn't care at what stage it's used to take a life) in Stockton, CA, he could have prevented further killing of innocents and nobody would've batted an eye or called HIM a murderer, yes? The problem is, how often does a real-life scenario like that play out? What I'm talking about is a concious effort to call pro-choice people murderers while at the same time supporting the concept of pre-emptive war, as one example. It just doesn't make sense and makes US citizens come off as their lives being somehow more valuable than Iraqui lives. That's simply an indefensible view point to my mind. Don't get me wrong, sometimes a nation does has no recourse to go to war especially if attacked...but don't use some religious excuse of preventing (hypothetically)further killing in your country to then go kill others (some, inarguably innocent). You can't cherry pick which people your god says it's OK to kill or not if you take the absolutist stance that ALL life is sacred even if it's a blob of cells that can't live on its own if the umbilical cord is severed.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 2:53 p.m. CST

    You see Darth, that is the problem

    by toadkillerdog

    You don't care what someone else thinks. You came in with an agenda, and a belief that all people of faith think a certain way. Even when I repeatedly emphasized that I never advocated imposing my or anyone else's belief on anyone, you still refused to accept that, and went off on your predetermined rant. You were bound and determined to make a point - regardless of my position. Then you say I do not understand you? I understand you perfectly. You are the one who refused to understand that I never once, not once advocated any imposition of my belief or anyones belief in the matter of abortion, or for that matter, even mentioned what my beliefs are.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 3 p.m. CST

    morGoth

    by toadkillerdog

    I will simply repeat what I wrote earlier: Compromises and rationalizations are the ultimate proof that we are merely human, and are flawed. It does not mean that taking a stance against abortion, but supporting capital punishment (or war), or vice versa is wrong. It means we have made moral judgements to the best of our abilities.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 3:45 p.m. CST

    Well...

    by morGoth

    ...it's certainly wrong, in my mind, to be that hypocritical especially when you are cognizant of the facts and act otherwise.<p>Sure, I completely recognize and agree with what you're saying but I must point out that seems to be a pretty "liberal" attitude and not one that the religious right-wing (particularly Bush supporters) in the US adheres to, yes? I still say it's cherry picking who "deserves" to get killed or not. I personally find that morally indefensible and it strikes me as the kind of logic one finds in a bag of pretzels.<p>Isn't it just another moral judgement to abort a fetus generated by the rape of a daughter by her father, for example? What you describe is a two-way street but the right in this country doesn't see it that way (see: hypocrisy...it's OK to kill them but not them).<p>Also, please note that I said "pre-emptive war" and not war in general.

  • Aug. 22, 2008, 4:04 p.m. CST

    Oh for pete's sake...

    by Darth Macchio

    STOP! Enough! I DID care what you thought in the spirit of honorable debate until you decided my beliefs and my faith without either asking or reading what I wrote. There's no agenda. You dismissed my faith as non-existent. Why? Are you looking for a fight? What agenda could I have possibly had? To demean those of faith? Please point out where I did so outside of my cheap comment about religious history?? (wrong debate for that, my apologies). I never once thought people of faith "think a certain way" I said all faith is valid, plain and simple. Yours, and mine. But you say I don't have any. You know this how? Inference? You say I don't believe in God. I said this when? Oh yeah, more inference right? Are you sure you're not seeking a fight? An antagonist? A bad guy to your good guy? This is pointless. We're both right and we're both wrong. Enough.

  • Aug. 23, 2008, 12:08 a.m. CST

    I'm gonna go see Obama tomorrow.......

    by Half-Baked-Goggle-Box-Do-Gooder

    ......and eat me some barbecue. Then I'm gonna go see Springsteen in St Louis. <p> Sounds like a pretty decent day to me.....

  • Aug. 23, 2008, 5:57 a.m. CST

    Russel Crowe To Play Bill Hicks?

    by pr1c3y

    Tell me that was a joke please. pretty please