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TARZAN review
Hey folks... Harry here, and ya know... I had to restart
this review after I saw THE IRON GIANT because, it
suddenly became a case of night and day. Where
because of one film’s beauty of story, it made the
luster of another become tainted.
TARZAN is a good film. But while watching THE
IRON GIANT I began seeing flaws in TARZAN that
I hadn’t seen or noticed before. The first of these
problems is with the technological leaps that Disney
is making in background animation and how it further
isolates the foreground character animation from
being part of the same picture.
DEEP CANVAS -- Tarzan has a revolutionary
beautiful background thingee that allows the artists to
better manipulate and add dimensions to the
background. It’s a bit like an ultimate field of
thought on the ol Multi-plane camera... but this time
you can zoom in and around... but it doesn’t look all
computery. It looks gorgeous on screen, and upon
first viewing your jaw will hang open and you’ll be
quite impressed...
However, the more I thought about it, I realized
something. DEEP CANVAS is nothing more than a
bit of slight of hand. It’s a distraction, and it does not
make you feel as though the characters exist in this
universe. They feel... apart from the backgrounds. I
believe Disney notices this too, because in every
billboard and all the promotional art, you see textures
and a roundness to Tarzan that completely makes him
a part of his universe. But in the film, this extra layer
of effects animation is not employed.
Go back and take a look at the work Disney did in
FANTASIA, when Mickey was battling the brooms
and the elements and lightning flashed, you saw it
wrap round Mickey as though he were a dimensional
being. This is an expensive process, but as a result...
it completes the illusion. Slight of hand is an
important filmic technique, but only if what you are
doing in the other hand is invisible and not hot pink,
which then calls more attention than the other trick.
I think one of the reasons that THE SIMPSONS work
so well is that their universe is so consistent. You
never don’t believe in The Simpson’s universe. It’s
just evident that that is the way their world is.
Had the foreground characters of Tarzan had the
richness and roundness of color and texture that the
backgrounds had... My god that would have been
something. Moving paintings... It’s coming, someone
is going to do it first, who will it be?
Next, I had a problem with characters created to
strictly pander to certain age groups. For me, I think
Tarzan would have been possibly the greatest
animated film that Disney could create... Had Glen
Keane been in charge all the way. If every character
had been as perfectly animated as his Tarzan... my my
my my my... this could have been a true monument.
I’m not saying to Disney, show Tarzan strangling
African Natives and slitting their throats... blood
gushing out of the emerald leaves above as the
natives squeal in horror and run. Though quite often
that is the feeling of the original novels. I
understand... You want to make a family film. Good,
very good. You almost did it perfect, and ya know...
this movie is going to be a rousing success
monetarily, but you know. I think they sold the
characters short. By throwing in Tantor the pink
elephant, and Terk the goofy ape friend and Jane’s
bumbling father... well you diffuse the story. Sure
there is a momentary outburst of giggles, which is
cheaply unearned.
It’s like in a horror film when suddenly a friendly
non-threatening person puts a hand on the shoulder of
a main character and the soundtrack raises to forte
fortissimo. That is a cheap scare.
However, the scene up in the tree where Tarzan is
figuring out that Jane is... like him. The giggles that
form there, the nervous laughs... That is genius. A
wonderfully perfect scene. A scene of genuine smart
writing. Wonderfully animated and verbalized.
In a lot of ways, it seems you were remaking the old
Johnny Weismuller TARZANs or at least adapting
from that source material... Which in making a family
Tarzan film, you could not choose a better adaptation
model.
But you know what, watch how they treated Cheetah
the chimpanzee. Cheetah is mischievous, and does
get into trouble... BUT at the same time Cheetah
cares for Tarzan... He’ll throw himself down in front
of a charging rhino to distract the rhino long enough
so that Tarzan could get away. And Cheetah would
pay for that loyalty and would get rundown by the
speeding Rhino. And there would be a tenderness,
and an honest feeling of sorrow... and of course
Cheetah would survive. But the point is, the
character served the story more than in the capacity
for annoyance.
Jane’s father isn’t a bumbling idiot, and there is no
reason to portray him in that manner. Why don’t you
treat the parent as a real human being. As a scientist
or explorer that is perhaps too buried in his work to
notice his daughter is all grown up. That she’s crying
for attention, and finds it in a loin cloth. He should
be genuinely fascinated by Tarzan. He should want
to bring Tarzan out to the civilized world because it
would make his career. He should never condone
Jane to live in the jungle with Tarzan, instead Jane
should make that decision on her own accord,
choosing the love of Tarzan over everything safe in
her world.
That would solidify that bond completely.
Tantor? Well, I would have Clayton wound Tantor
so he would follow him to the elephant graveyard...
The monetary difference between capturing and
killing gorillas... vs the monetary worth of ivory is
staggering. Clayton is one of the weakest villains in
Disney history in that... his whole ‘scheme’ feels
tacked on and plainly obvious. He’s not particularly
threatening. Often times in the Tarzan series of films,
the bad guy’s own scheme sinks him. One does not
trifle with nature, of which Tarzan is the human
embodiment of.
Clayton spends more time shooting blindly and acting
like a parody of Gaston than as a Victorian age villain
who thrilled in the act of killing. While Jane and
Papa were teaching Tarzan the ways of civilization...
perhaps we could have seen Clayton out hunting...
killing animals, bagging a few of Tarzan’s friends.
Then at the end... Tarzan would realize that he had
turned his back on his loved ones, cost the lives of
many of his friends... and turn into the king of the
jungle that he is destined to be.
And what he does to Clayton should be brutal, not an
accident.
But then... perhaps that’s not the movie Disney set out
to make. Actually it isn’t. And hopefully at some
future date someone somewhere will make a real
TARZAN film that fully realizes the character’s
potential. Perhaps someone will use Neal Adams’
look at the character and go from there.
Disney’s TARZAN is a fun escapist film. There are
moments of profound beauty, but at the end of it all...
Like HUNCHBACK and HERCULES... it doesn’t
fully take advantage of the great material that was
handed to Disney. Though even at this stage... and
for what it is... It is, in my opinion, the best of the
Disney modern animated films (aka from THE
LITTLE MERMAID on....)
Tarzan steps in the right direction, but it still carries
alot of the baggage of the formula Disney has been
milking for the last decade.
Enjoy the film, but be ready for the real deal with
THE IRON GIANT. It is truly magical and earns it’s
tears with fully realized characters and storytelling.
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I don't get Tarzan in the first place. . .little more a cartoon version. What did the original movies offer? Acting? Action? Important Issues? No, no, no. . .it offered wrastling with Alligators. I'm not sure if I could count the number of times that damn ape man wrestled with an alligator or snake or some other "mean" reptile. Fuck him, he doesn't belong in the jungle, and neither does that damn woman or midget boy. I wish The Predator showed up and cut 'em all in half.
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I've found that Disney has become so frightened of losing whatever that element is that kept people flocking back to see Aladdin and The Lion King over and over that they've become that gambler everyone's seen that gets so superstitious after winning big one night that he shows up at the tables every night for two weeks afterward wearing the same clothes and standing in the same spot. After a while, everyone begins to notice the stench. They'll keep dragging out familiar stories with arbitrarily mutated characters and a wacky sidekick voiced by whatever stand-up they can find until someone breaks the mold again, but that won't happen (unless it's The Iron Giant that does so, and I haven't read any info on that yet because of the bits of good buzz I've heard on it) anytime soon.
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Um, since when did Tarzan act like a fucking inline skater? What the hell is that? It looks like some snowboarder on a plane trip crashed in the jungle, and decided to act like a damn monkey. This is almost annoying, what they did to this classic novel. Scratch that, this *IS* annoying. It looks like some sick fucked up view of gen-xers that Disney has. The CGI backgrounds look pretty cool, but that's about it. I'll wait for this thing to come out on video^H^H^H^Hcable.
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...Disney just sells merchandise...and use movies to advertise them...
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Perhaps to salute the greatness of Iron Giant, MGM should release another great cartoon (my favorite of all time), Secret of NIMH. This film, too, has wit and intelligence and hardly has a single annoying song.
I just hope Iron Giant won't fall in the fate that Pleasantville did. I mean, god, Pleasantville is such a classic and a beautifully directed one. It didn't reach much of an audience at all nor did it get all of the expected oscar nominations. -
Animation is better than this. It holds the promise of something better--something I'm hoping "Iron Giant" possesses. It holds that elusive quality the films like "Toy Story"posess--the quality of childlike timelessness. A point of view from that of not just the media child, but that of the well seasoned observer--a story that is set in the past, but has something relevant to say to current audiences (especially those jaded fans of animation!). I'm sure "Tarzan" is a fine film (I mean, one of the 2 directors made "A Goofy Movie," one of the animated features that has some of the BEST "moments" of any animated features of the last 10 years--don't believe me? take a chance...)--but imagine all the battles lost!!!! I'm first in line to see "Tarzan," but I'm DYING to see "Iron Giant." Here's hoping "Ray Gunn" is next.
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That's funny because everything you're saying about the pandering is what a lot of people (including me) think about Jar-Jar Binks in Ep. 1 and why we find him so annoying. Couldn't have said it better meeself.
About the backgrounds: you're right. They're becoming so beautiful they actually distract from what's happening onscreen. But it does make it worth our while to see the movies on the big screen instead of on video.
And before I go may I add: I spit on your grave, DIVX.
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Harry- I completely agree with your comments about the disparity of style between the characters & the backgrounds. One is flat, a graphic style, the other a gorgeous painterly feel. They jarr againsed each other. The new deep canvas tecnique serves to highlight the problem, but I've always been disturbed by it from way back. I know a background painter at Disney who worked on Tarzan & he says that the ultimate plan is to do the characters using a deep canvas type of tecnique, but apparently Disney are cutting back on budgets so it's probably gonna be a while before they explore the possibilities fully. I can see another studio beating them to it. Who will be the first to produce an animated painting?
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Be a little objective! (is this the right word??) Why didn'y you put on line Tarzan's review two days before?? It shows a lot how the Iron Giant made you change your decision about this film! I remember 6 months ago when you were talking about Tarzan like one of the best classics of all time! And now that you saw Iron Giant, you compare it with Tarzan! The two movies won't be at the same time in the theater, i just want the review of Tarzan, not the one of Tarzan vs Iron Giant! And for the Deep Canvas, i agree the first time it is surprising, because you never saw a thing like this, but with time, i watched already 15 minutes of the movie on video, and i think the characters are well into the movie. I didn't find the backgrounds intrusive at all. It is just gorgeous, that's it! From your review, we think: it gonna suck, and that is what all the people before me wrote in this Talk Back. but remember Harry, when some time ago, you were saying that you loved sooooooooooo much about the movie, that the story was soooooooooo strong, that we were going to be gaga over that movie. Did you see it again recently? I just hope that with time you forgot a little about it, because from this review and the firsts you made, it is like they changed it completely.
Tarzan rules because it is FUN!! -
Come on, I hope Disney isn't paying you that much. You're too obvious, bro. You have to come up with a name like MovieDude or JarJArBinksDieDieDie.
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Disney Feature Animation will be plagued with this kind of unmet potential until its current management is replaced. Don't lose hope, folks, nothing in Hollywood lasts forever, and these bozos won't have control much longer. The company stock has suffered badly in the past year, and that will be their undoing. These guys saved a medium and should be forever remembered for that, but they got old and lazy and way too wrapped up in themselves. They should be put out to pasture on Broadway where they can graze and frolic away their golden years. It's a terrible shame to see such obviously talented artists having to work for such prols.
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I just don't get it. If I wanted Tarzan I'd rent Hudson/Geffen/Robert Towne's "Greystoke," and that has Glenn Close's voice, too!
I just can't believe David Fincher's "FIGHT CLUB" has been pushed back. What are they afraid of? I've waited too damn long. I have a boner for this movie with a capital O! Screw a Fall release, I'm gonna start hunting for a bootleg workprint NOW!!! -
Why all the hoopla about Tarzan and Iron Giant (yeah i'll see em'), but like nothing on this animated masterpeice?? Guys this movie made more money in Japan than Titanic.. its huge.. Harry, wheres the coverage???
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Tal - you got that right! Everybody's worked up that american animation is finally getting better...and WHY? What might make people think that animation can be better then Disney and "the King and I"? Hmmmm....Me thinks its anime. Where is the coverage on what *should* be a big deal - a movie we *already* know is a classic? I want Harry to finally watch some Miyazaki (and some Anno, while he's at it). Oh, btw, MH got beat out by Titanic (one giant step backward for mankind). Mayby if Harry gets the job in Chi-town Ebert will sit him down and make him marathon all of Studio Ghibli's stuff...mmmm, Studio Ghibli.....
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I'm probably going to get hammered for this, but I love Pokemon. The stories are fantastic, and it just shows that anime has the upper hand on cartoons produced here in the states. Is there anything in this world cuter than Pikachu? Not since Gizmo.
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I assure you i'm not paid by Disney. But i just want to make you notice that critics (not animation fans that you pretend to be) love this movie! Just go to http://www.rotten-tomatoes.com/tarzan.asp there is a dozen of very positive reviews. And you know why? Because they didn't see the Iron Giant. For them, tarzan is great and will be for most of us who will see it before IG. Don't be already dissapointed just because Harry changed his mind about it. (well, not changed, but reconsidered it). Just see it on a big screen, in its entirety, in a full-packed theater. You can bet you will love this one. And remember: Disney movies are not just for animation fans, but for all the people in the world. If they like them, don't think Disney will change because of your complaints. I say and assume it that i love animation but animation is giving life to some drawings and the possibility of seeing things you couldn't in real life. All the Disney universe is fantasy and it doesn't have to be serious, without songs, etc...i tell you, guys: i laughed in mulan.
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1) Phantom Menace was good, dang it. 2) Secret Of NIMH was GREAT and a true milestone for animation willing to break with the standard musical tradition. 3) Fight Club was pushed back because Fox smells Oscar on it... I don't agree. I think it looks annoying and will be another nail in Brad Pitt's fifteen minute coffin. 4) Saw the preview of Iron Giant last night (before Austin Powers 2, a real disappointment) and IG's preview could have been better. It could have involved me more than it did.I think that this, Warner Bros. marketing campaign overall, will serve to hurt a movie that, despite my opinion of the trailer, could be the last truly great animated film this century. 5)The preview of The Astronaut's Wife pretty much told the entire story, didn't it? And, on top of that, it looks bleedin' laughable.
Th- Th- Th- That's all folks! -
Hope its better than Phantom Boredom. Gee, its Disney, wonder if they will have a bunch of swell uplifting songs to offset all the monkey violence?
Gather up the kids soccer moms! -
Walt Disney makes a quality family product. Period. You can feel safe to take your kids and know that the film isn't going to be a shoddy production. Safe. Reliable. Predictable. Yes, you know exactly what to expect from frame one to the last of the end credits--no matter what story has been choosen in order to forward the Disney formula. The ONLY difference is the style of animation applied to the formula, and some look better than others. "Pocahontas" had a rough, almost rushed look, closer in style to some of their films from the 70s, while "Beauty and the Beast" and "The Lion King" had more of a smooth, lush texture. Still, every film from "The Little Mermaid" to the present has basically the exact same plot structure, musical variety and characters. The strange thing to me is the nature of the stories they sometimes choose to wedge into the formula. It's true that many of the old Brothers Grim style fairy tales used as a basis for many of their older films had, perhaps, sicker and more twisted origins, but they still seemed to be more innocent at the core. But the choice of stories like "The Hunchback of Notre Dame," "Pocahantas" and to some degree "Hercules" required such a great degree of story and character changes to fit the "formula" that the result is the equivalent of trying to fit a square peg into a circle. The complete birth and nature of Hercules had to be altered to fit the family formula, the entire climax and meaning behind the Hunchback's tale had to be changed, and pretty much everything about Pocahantas had to go. So why even choose these stories if they have to be irrevocably altered in order to fit a formula? Does Tarzan really need a comic relief, dancing, singing Ape sidekick just because the formula demands it? As a result, all of these stories tend to blend into one indistinguishable whole devoid of the wonderful original nature of each classic tale. Before you go and judge me as a Disney hater, let me say that I am not. I like these films quite a bit. There's a comfortable feeling I get from revistiting this formula over and over, not unlike seeing each new James Bond film or watching sequels to a favorite genre film, like Star Wars or Alien. I'm looking forward to Tarzan, but I don't expect it to break any new ground. At this point, I would hope that none of you do either. Let's hear some feedback on this.
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I don't know why you people keep complaining about Tarzan for! The Phantom Menace really didn't interest me that much. I feel asleep in the movie because it was so crappy! I was awakened by people cheering. Of course there has been a lot of hype about some crappy movie that people get off work, spend weeks at a time in Los Angles waiting for tickets to a movie that all it wants to do is make money. Of course MAYBE SW1 is better than TARZAN but how do WE know this? Yet, the master of the force is going head to head with the master of animation...DISNEY!! Yet there maybe 2000 damn special effects in SW1 but there could be something in TARZAN that's not in SW1. First of all, TARZAN could be nominated for the Phil Collins song, "You'll Be In My Heart" what song will SW1 be nominated for? Absolutly jack shit!!!! Tarzan could be nominated for best comedy or musical score but SW1 can't be nominated because they're using the same damn music that they used in all the others. SW could've been nominated when it opened. But they made three other movies since then with the same music!! So, in other words we can't really judge which movie will be the best this summer. It's a buggy bug world out there and some movie could get HURT!! You guys have a nice summer. Let's ride!
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wow...my first post
anyways,
I personaly hated Akira..it made no sense, the dubbing was god awful, and the animation didn't catch me, and i'm a HUGE anime fan. Now...look at Annos work, like Neon Genisis Evangelion, Brilliant, yet werid, unless you know alot about Kabalism and some other stuff. I mean, it's far from an excuse to have big robots blowing up cities, there's alot of psyco-drama in it that can drive a person nuts with trying to figure it out. Mononoke is another great example. i personaly don't like Miyazaki's work, but MH just blew me away. I had never seen anything like it, save the plot is kinda overused, but in its execution it was origonal.
I'm not saying that all anime is way out there on the edge, there are lots of formulaic anime, but at least there are some that push the boarders out periodicly. -
You compare films to other films. Can nobody just watch a movie and just simply enjoy it without picking on every single thing in the film?
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My two-year-old boy and 8-year-old both attended the same preview showing that you did, Harry (my wife recognized you and yer dad from the city-wide days) - and they were both bored silly.
They also both watch the original Johnny Wiesmueller episode (with the fully nekkid Jane swimming scene) over and over. It's really pitiful when the cartoon version holds the interest of a 2 year old less than the live one.
The reason is very simple - there is a fundamental difference between making a film for the whole family (as with the original Tarzan, the old-school Disney animations, the Simpsons...) and making one "aimed at kids". The ones designed for kids appeal to no one except frightened parents (though they are interesting in that they expose the contempt and prejudices by the designers for their target audience).
Related subject - what passes for Disney soundtracks today. My god, what could be more damaging to the minds and personalities of my kids? Actually, they haven't been harmed yet, 'cause my two year still knows enough to bop around the room to the Jungle Book lp, yet exhibits no detectable reaction at all to the Pocahontas 'music'...
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Um, Tarzan better than Star Wars? For one, SW1 didn't revert to stupid panzy songwriters (like Phil Collins) for the soundtrack. No, SW1 contracted the master composer, John Williams to do the music. Having a singing soundtrack in the movie will date it. People in the 2000's will watch it and say, eww--listen to that gimpy 90's music. Yet, they'll watch Star Wars and say, cool operatics in the background. Star Wars will stomp Tarzan and his lousy loincloth into the ground!
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Ok I've been quietly lurking for a couple of months now but that whole Anime comment by grunter must be addressed. First off, anime has as many genre as live action so classifing the entire art form as crap based on a small part of it is bad form. Yea the whole giant robot thing in the 80's did get a little tiresome but try looking at the anime in this decade. There are very few Giant Robot type of anime and alot of the ones in the 90's poke fun at the previous ones, take a look at Martian Succesor Nadesico.. it has a pretty realistic giant robots, at least they don't usually exceed
physical laws ;) Plus all the other anime out there that doesn't have flashy crap is a lot better than most american tv.. Take a look at Vision of Escaflowne (medieval giant magic powered robots ;), Fushigi Yuugi (good old fantasy romance), Rurouni Kenshin (whoohoo a good action anime), Marmalade Boy (Romantic comedy).. and the list goes on and on.. don't let some bad experiences with crappy anime turn you away from it.. And why does Akira always get brought up (ugh).. this is not the way to introduce people to anime... although I know there was a story in there somewhere beneath all the flashy crap, damned if I know where it was.. -
Tarzan is a movie. OK, now onto anime.
Akira keeps getting brought up because it was the first anime movie which opened the world to this Neo-Tokyo atmosphere with psycho-enhanced creatures. The animation was rather top-notch around its release time as well, and I personally loved it. That's why it keeps getting mentioned, but now I'm sick of hearing about it. My favorite anime movie to date is still Ninja Scroll, despite its use of gratuitous sex. I personally don't care too much for that aspect of anime, but for some god awful reason, I absolutely love the blood and violence. It's action, man. That's what I go for, and Ninja Scroll has some of the coolest villains ever to grace the anime scene. Long live anime! Oh, and I heard the sequel sucked big time, I have yet to see it. -
Jun 17, 1999 2:45:15 PM CDT
Learn about _Akira_ before shooting you mouth off, asshole.
by phr33k0ut
Eudaemon: Good man. You know something before you talk about it. Grunter: After reading some of your posts, it's come to my, and everyone elses, attention, that you are the biggest god damn moron to ever exist. You have no idea what you are talking about. "Anime sucks"? Maybe because you don't understand the fucking story unless it's so god damn obvious it is literally explained to you in one 5 word sentence, hence your fucking choice of favorites _South_Park_. Talk about shitty. This show has the lamest fucking plots in history, but they're simple enough to explain in a single sentence, so you understand it. I suggest you go back and watch _Akira_ with someone who can explain it to you using small words, perhpas a fucking 8 year old. Maybe then you'll appreciate storytelling, and finally know why so many of us are bitching about the lack of plot in modern movies. Akira had more story than all the fucking films you'll see in your lifetime. If a movie is thought provoking, then in your opinion, it sucks. Why? Because you can't fucking uderstand it. Well, I guess a lot of movies will suck in your opinion. Watch _Akira_, and fucking pay attention to the story, and what people are god damn saying, you fucking retard. You might learn a thing or two, and be able to properly say "random movie title> has no plot". Finally, if you thought Evangellion was weird, then go back and watch it again. This time, fucking pay attention!
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Without commenting on the movie itself, rewriting classic stories is not as shameful as some of you purists have decreed. Lest we forget, some of Shakespeare's finest moments were his own treatments of classic stories.
Whether Disney adapts the story well, is what is at issue here, not the revisionism itself. -
This is mainly to Phr33kOut (hope I got the name right ;) I need to restate my opinion of Akira.. It may have sounded as if I did not like it but I really do. Akira was the first "real" anime I saw (I say "real" because I had only seen dubbed stuff like Robotech and Tranzor Z, you know the type of stuff I mean) I loved it. The animation was incredible and wow they were actually speaking Japanese.. how cool ;) So I saw it over and over and I couldn't belive this type of stuff existed, I was in heaven. Then I saw Vampire Princess Miyu. Wow, now that is anime. And since then it has escalated. I guess I've seen Akira too many times (much like My Heart Goes On.. I actually liked it the first 9 billions time I heard it on the radio) and the newer stuff is just so much better ..wait till Blood comes out ;) I guess I just feel the same way about Akira now as I do about My Heart Goes On , one too many times. And it really isn't something that new anime fans should see first, It has that same quality that Wind Named Amniesia had.. everythings not all wrapped up nice and neat in little boxes. I've learned to love that about anime, its rarely the straight road thats the most interesting..
Well thats just my opinion, I could be wrong (yea i ripped it off Denis Miller but it just sums things up so well)
ja ne... -
Disney, for one great thing about it, always make great animation movies and that before "The Little Mermaid" and "The Lion King". The slew of Disney animation films since '89 has been nothing but pandering tools to market merchandised items and stuff for kids to boost extra profits for Disney stalled by lack of attendance and revenue based on people going to Disneyworlds (in Fla. and Calif.) in the late 80s and early 90s before resurging attendance and revenues by mid-90s. These movies were the culprit of helping Disney boost attendance and revenues for their theme parks and bring on MORE theme parks for the future. Soon in ten years, the world would be Disney-ized. Disney is more of a giant corporation than an animation studio house it started out in the beginning. Old Uncle Walt would shudder at the thought of making Disney the world-wide corporation house of all life. It's these corporate suits that made Disney a corporate reality for the last 40 years. Corporate and marketing suits only care about their rising and adding more profits for their salaries, which would serve their own selfish needs and pretend to carry the torch of Disney all this for the sake of entertaining kids.
If I run an animation studio house and if all of my characters are as popular and loveable as Mickey Mouse, I will never give any corporate suit a reason to dream about turning my animation studio house into a giant corporation like Disney. I just hope Hayao Mizakaki would tear up and shut down Studio Ghibili before corporate suits of Japan would be thinking of turning it into another Disney. Tarzan is just another example of Disney wanting to expanding attendance and revenues, as well as adding a new theme or two for their theme parks. I would prefers another animation studio house to do an animated version of Tarzan BASED on Edgar Rice Burrough's Tarzan novels (STICK WITH IT for God's sake!!!!). Just like Harry emphasized it. I just pray that Disney's FANTASIA 2000 would remain TRUE to its original precedessor and not another fucking pandering tool.
Rob (whew!) -
Disney has not changed all that much since ol' uncle Walt first scraped together the resources to finish Steamboat Willy. He was out to make a buck then, feed his family, ayadayadayada, and he also wanted to produce animated films. He and his studio came to be a household name that entertained the whole family with classics like Snow White and Cinderella. He also opened Disneyland and sold his product to ABC so he could pay for it. There have been rough spots and there have been gilded ages. Disney was a man, like any man, like Eisner for example. Eisner made the company viable again. And now the're doing what Want and his employees always were, and they're selling it. Last time I checked, this was a capitalistic society. Last time I checked, this was okay. The new "evil, heartless, greedy" Disney produces incredibly expensive series of images that entertain. And they pay for these animated ventures with plush toys and theme park cross promotion. It's not unlike Walt himself, it's not cheap, it's the economically viable way to get fantastic animation on the big screen.
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Harry, take another look at Burrough's "Tarzan of the Apes". Say whatever you want about the Disney movie, but they actually TONED DOWN how goofy Jane's father is. In the book, he's FAR more comic and bumbling.
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Sorry, couldn't resist...Anyway, what's the big deal about 'Tarzan' being aimed at kids? Why is this such a shock? Some of the most successful films of all time have been aimed at kids (or kids at heart). Hollywood has known this for quite some time, you know...
On the subject of animation, more specifically 'anime' (is it called that now because 'Japanimation' isn't PC?), I'm surprised more than one person actually dissed the ultimate geekboy movie, 'Akira.' I've seen this movie, and maybe its hype proceeded it, but I was a little underwhelmed by it all. Maybe if I had watched it with a 'fucking 8 year old' as Phr33out so eloquently put it, maybe I would have gotten more out of it. It wasn't boring, I'll give you that, it held my interest, it looked good, and it was suitably outrageous in parts, but I really would like someone to explain the ending to me. Paging all 8-year olds...
BTW, Phr330ut, you should consider getting in the warez business. You've got the name for it... :) -
I haven't seen either Tarzan or The Iron Giant. I've seen Citizen Kane abuncha times and never has it affected the way I've viewed other movies. I've never thought less of Red River or Casablanca just because Citizen Kane affected me in a way that those films might not have. Movies shouldn't affect the way you see other movies, they should affect the way you see the world around you.
Deep Canvas is another technique
just like a crane shot or panning, when's the last time you've criticized one of these? Next time just try WATCHING the movie in front of you, it's fun as hell that way! -
While I essentially agree with Harry's review, I seem to have enjoyed "Tarzan" more than he did.
For one thing, it's the first time I've been able to enjoy Phil Collins' music for more than a few minutes at a time.
For another, I really liked the character animation on Rosie O'Donnell and Minnie Driver, both of whom did fine work, voice-wise.
What Harry says about the conflict between character and backgroud animation conflicting is true, and somewhat distracting -- but ain't that deep canvas something! -
I have to admit, the "Deep Canvas" problem as you call it, is one of my major pet peeves in feature animation. I mean, I could understand it back in the old days (remember on Scooby-Doo how you *knew* which basket the monster was going to pop out of because the cel's color scheme was waaay off the background's?), but now? There's a lot of room for improvement. As far as the anime goes, I too don't like to see it ripped by anybody who hasn't seen a significant portion of it in its original form. If "Iron Giant" is indeed better than "Mononoke Hime," then I'll be surprised, and I don't even think MH is Miyazaki's best film (try Nausicaa, Totoro, or Laputa). If you think all anime is either Akira (which I disliked) or some Voltron/Gundam clone, then you need to look a little deeper or you'll be depriving yourself of some great entertainment. Oh, and if you're in Japan, remember, the best movie of the year, "Shoujo Kakumei Utena Adolescence Mokushiroku (Revolutionary Girl Utena Adolescence Apocalypse)" opens on August 14, double-billed with "Cyber Team Akihabara 2011." To Eudaemon: The new film version of "Vision of Escaflowne" was announced for release next spring, in case you didn't know.
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...they make big expensive pilots for their dtv sequels and Tv series!
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It wasn't a rip at you, but to Grunter. The part mentioning you was praise for having seen _Akira_ and understood it enough to like it. My friends hate that film, but when I ask "why?" they never have a convincing argument. Always "It was boring. I couldn't follow it." It's my experience that those who don't understand something tend to hate it. As in Grunter.
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Hey, friends. My insight into Japanese animation comes from my very limited knowledge of their art and theater. I
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An animaed painting may not have been dnoe, but an animated watercolor opens in Japan on July 17. Studio Ghibli is doing Tonari no Yamada-kun, using digital paint to make the entire thing look like it was done in watercolor without the annoying flickering and such that you usually get. And the CGI.. oh god, it's gorgeous. i mean it. That logo, with those soft pastel clouds pulling away, in perfectly colored and tracked waterclor... Wow. Half f the trailer got up on the web a bit ago, but I don't know what's happened to it.
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For the love of all that is good- enjoy movies! I like to hear early reviews, their opinions, and what makes the movies tick for them. More often then not, there are a few worrying points foe every movie. More often than not, a greater deal is made of theses flaws than should be.
Animation is my favorite medium, so let IG, Mononoke Hime, and Toy Story 2 roll. But enjoy the stuff, stop blasting every bad detail out of proportion. Sure Rosie Ape and the pink elephant were annoying, but not nearly as bad as I thought. Which is good. Phil Collins is old, balding and provided the mandatory Disney songs. But if there's got to be a song in a cartoon, this way is much better than breaking into a chorus line. It's a step in the right direction.
Tarzan is a good animated movie. Dare compare it to other Disney "classics"? Sure. I like about 3 of'em. Now 4. I hope Tarzan does well.
But, I hope IG, Toy Story 2 and especially Princess Mononoke do better. Then, (hopefully) Disney will do the right thing and keep the good of their animation (nifty Tarzan animation, the memorable character designs of the Beast, Genie, and some others) and ditch the crap (need I say... sidekicks... baaad songs...). Then replace that gaping hole o' crap with the good of the forementioned good cartoons.
That said, yay, I'm gonna see Tarzan agian.
Last thought- did anyone notice Disney edited a wee bit of violence out? Remember the first trailer? (downloadable if ya don't.) Tarzan had three cuts on his pec (or "man-boob" as Conan would say) from Ziborga. But in the movie, they ain't here but a second. Check the scene where Tarzan looks up right after that fight. Disappering act there.... -
First of all, saying anime sucks is like saying movies suck in general. Obviously there is a reason anime is around and why it is getting praised so much. America is finally taking its head out of its a** and waking up to anime. About damn time. Akira is NOT a good start for someone just getting into anime, I don't know why some think it is. It is a very DEEP and long movie and requires several viewings to catch most of it. The reason it got noticed so well, as many have mentioned, is mostly just how damn good it looks. Even compared to today's newer anime, Akira looks very good. Since then I've enjoyed other movies better. Personally my favorite anime to date is Macross Plus and I've also enjoyed Record of Lodoss War, The Slayers series, El Hazard I and II, Tenchi Muyo, and numerous others. The fact is anime does a splendid job of dealing with emotion. Just play Final Fantasy VII and Luanr, then compare the CGI cutscenes to the anime cutscenes and you'll see what I mean. In FF7, the scenes may look nice, but lack emotion. The scenes in Lunar though are bright and full of emotion. And if you don't like anime, you're going to have to get used to it sooner or later because its coming and I'll tell you why : 1) Pokemon : I think is one of the big reasons. It is HUGE over here in the States and the upcoming movie is destined to bring in big bucks and an even bigger awareness of Mr. Pikachu. 2) Disney is falling apart. Other studios are seeing this and trying to capitilize on it. While some are producing things like Anastatia, others will undoubtedly bring in some anime like Paramount is doing and it will catch on sooner or later. 3) Critics like Roger Ebert are throwing their support behind the anime movement and Ebert and, god bless his soul, Gene Siskel, have in the past helped out movies and no doubt more will watch anime because of his recomendations. 4) Disney already is adopting anime anime techniques and that trend will probably follow. 5) Video store rentals for anime are growing at a great rate. Entire sections at video stores are now devoted to anime. 6) A lot of video games are
utilizing anime. Shogo, Lunar, and the upcoming Oni are a few that should be mentioned. This will help to make gaming audiences aware of anime. Finally, we're seeing a few uses of anime here already such as in Spawn on HBO and with the great one McFarlane supporting anime, that will probably help get other animators convinced that there is some validity behind the movement. I will personally rejoice like no other when anime is finally accepted here in the States and we have "The Anime Channel" or something simlar available with all those glorious movies and series we've been missing out on. -
This is probably gonna be long so bear with me. One. Grunter? Thats a good name for a cro-magnon non-human being like yourself.. Apparently you are not able to do more than grunt. As many have said before and I say again, Saying all anime sucks just because you didn't understand Akira and/or have only seen the retardedly large amount of BAD imported anime is like saying you dont like food because you dont like brussel sprouts... dude don't make that kind of horrendous amalgamation. Two. Nausicca In The Valley of the Winds is like one of the best movies ever made.. I can't wait to see Princess Mononoke.. I really hope they dont screw up the voice acting, they do have good talent for it but they're need to make it fit the mouths and such.. I hear the Neil Gaiman is writing the translation.. Hooray! Gaiman is one of the greatest living story-tellers, if anybody can get to the core of Princess Mononoke its him. Props (like that incredibly inane use of slang? I thought you did :-) to whomever mentioned Ninja Scroll too. That movie rocks (yeah its does tend toward too much sex, but damn that sword fight in the trees with the blind guy rivals that of Star Wars Ep. 1... don't beleive me? watch it). Three. Someone else mentioned the "anime style" earlier in this talkback. For an incredible wealth of info on that subject (including an in depth comparison of american style of animation and Japanese style animation) take a look at Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" perhaps one of the most eye opening books I've ever read about perception since "The Doors of Perception."
As for Disney and Tarzan (the actual topic of this talk back) I just saw Tarzan.. I loved it! the only thing that prevents this movie from being my new favorite is Rosie O'Donell, not since Fran Drescher have I heard such an annoying harpy of a woman.. damn i hate that wench.. The fight scenes and Deep Canvas Effect make up for that erroneous error on Disney's part. Also the morals are almost on the right track, finally. After a string of unbelievably ( i know I'm going to catch hell for this but here goes) Marxist moral-wise movies, Disney finally comes out with a movie that has at least a smidgen of better morals. Tarzan's chick acts selfishly in the end.. hooray! Harry? I totally disagree with your thoughts on Deep Canvas. It doesn't detract from the immersion at all. (At least it didn't to me, though i do have a serious grounding in CGI, so maybe i'm of a different ilk?) -
Im seeing Tarzan tommorrow and have nothing to say about it, but after reading some of the posts, I have to agree with Gumbo, this debate-if there ever was a serious one-between Western and Eastern animation techinique and storytelling is stupid. It's a culture thing. Both should be viewed independently but rightfully respected. I would like to see a mesh between the two in a movie, and it looks like were coming to that age. Jesus, I make it sound like this is important. It is to us. They rest of the world falls for and is entertained by animation but they don't have the love So stop this bullshit about why I hate Disney. Guess what? They're still making movies even after 60 years. Their "style" will change, but not their heart (Bird). What happens when there's no more animation? No one cares. So I'm happy to see animation is alive and growing. Even though I don't like South Park, one good thing I can say about it, is that it gets people to sit down and watch a cartoon.
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After going to see Tarzan tonight, and taking a good half hour to come off the overall rush that it provided, but Phantom Menace utterly failed to, I have to say I'm a little suprised by the negative backlash against the movie. The film had a lot of subtle touches that past Disney movies, and a lot of other films, didn't have. It flowed, unlike a lot of the crap that Hollywood is throwing at us-Phantom Menace and it's painfully seperated "episodes" being a prime example. I came out of Tarzan impressed, unlike Episode One, when I came out noticing numerous flaws in the writing, effects, acting, etc. It wasn't revolutionary, but it was still a very enjoyable film. I don't like that Harry is comparing it to a movie that most of us normal-types won't see until August. I'm really excited about Iron Giant... it looks like a really fun movie. A definate retro kind of cool, and it might change the way people view animated films. No musical numbers? No goofy sidekicks? It couldn't hurt! As far as anime goes, I think a lot of the bad opinion some people hold is due to one simple fact. By and large, the anime that sells is hentai(porn) in nature. That's an unfortunately large portion of what appears in stores. As a result, truely good stuff gets ignored. To those who think it's all "big eyes and giant robots", take a look at, say, Record of Lodoss War sometime. It's probably the best fantasy saga seen on the screen, big or small, in some time. I would encourage anyone who thinks all anime is bad to check out a few titles, and then come to that assessment. It's not all Akira, you know(a movie I really don't care for, to be honest). My only real gripe is we haven't seen a true Rockman(Mega Man) anime yet. Maybe I'm biased as a lifelong fanboy, but I think a well done MM anime would put a whole lot of butts in seats. (=
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...don't carry it around in your pocket. If you know it's a Disney movie, don't pay to see it and then complain about the tired old formula.
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To truly enjoy anime, may I suggest getting the sub-titled release. I can already hear the bitching about "I have to read, though....". Too bad. They were made in JAPANESE, not english. In order to be fully appreciated you shouldn't subject yourself to the strains of gaijin trying to read the usually awful translation.
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I saw Tarzan last night and it was great. Sure if you wanted to you could nit pick the shit out of it. You could go into the theater wanting desperately to hate the movie because it was a Disney movie, and not surprisingly you'll leave the theater hating the movie and then come on here and bitch and moan. Do you all realize how predicatable all of you are? I could have told you exactly what you were going to write months ago: "Why do all of their movies have to have songs? Why do they have to have stupid side kicks? Why are Disney such sell outs?....blah, blah, etc. etc. etc.
I've been following these talk backs for the last few weeks now and I've notice that whatever Harry says you all follow him like a pack of fuckin sheep. Some of you aren't even willing to see the movie because of what Harry said here. Why don't you people think for yourselves? Tarzan was an incredible movie. The songs worked beautifully. The deep canvas technology blended nicely with the characters in the foreground. The animation was remarkable, not just of Tarzan but of all the characters. Tarzan exhibited probably the widest range of emotions that I've seen shown in an animated character. Everything felt very genuine.
Besides if you are going to follow someone why the hell are you choosing Harry, a person that liked Jar jar binks and liked Armageddon. If you are going to just blindly follow someone, why don't you follow someone that knows a decent movie when it's out there?
If anyone else had made Tarzan besides Disney you all would have loved it. Everyone loves to hate Disney. If Disney had made The Iron Giant I'm sure you all would tear that apart as well. In fact if Harry hates the Iron Giant - which isn't likely since it's not a Disney film - you will all probably hate it too.
Go see the movie and enjoy it. It's a great movie. -
Harry, how could you say "Jane's father is not a bumbling idiot." he is a bumbling idiot. In this movie, he was a bumbling idiot. If he was a cross dressing orangutan, that's what he would be. You can't say, he is not a cross dressing orangutan. However they make him, is how he is. And if you were referring to the book, he is much more of an idiot there, and he had a little sidkick who was the same way.
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sketchy...you saw Tarzan,,you liked it.(obviously).,.,well great!!im glad that you liked it!!but when you attack people by making comments like:"i coulda told you what you were gonna write months ago..." or:"why do they have to have songs and sidekicks!?"etc etc...well....of course you could've predicted what people were gonna say months ago---you probably coulda predicted it years ago!!chances are they've beensaying that same critisism for some time--why??well because they've been watching the same disney movie for about ten years(which has just been a take off of the same formula for 60 years)---therfor its totaly a valid and true critisism.
i've seen it(saw it a month ago..)and yes i like it...disney does what they do--and they do it very well...but it reminds me of a paper doll tht you xerox--then color it a different way and maybe put on a different jacket --its nice and all--and its got a different look...but theres just that sence of familiarity about it...thats what'cha got with disney features...your gonna dig it..theanimation is top notch the colors are very pretty and all...but...its just the same old type of thing...pochahantes with muscles and a different loincloth..instead of a raccoon hey its an ape!!..like i said ...i like t but its not an "incredible movie"as you said...its just another well crafted xerox.
---------------smg
ps:im not a "disney basher"..i love disney..all of us in this industry grew up on disney...but as i've said before..i love animation more--and ya gotta love it enough to be honest about it. -
What is it with all of you people and your absolute hatred of Disney?
Yes, The Walt Disney Company are a business who are successful. Yes, they make a tonne of money from these films and associated merchandise. I don't see, however, how this make them all that is evil in this world.
Firstly, Walt was no different and ran his company with an eye to wringing out as much profit as possible from each venture. In fact, he helped pioneer the whole merchandising culture.
Disney today make films aimed primarily at a set audience. Maybe you are not in that audience. Get on with your lives and stop complaining that Disney isn't making the films you want to see. Judging by the early numbers from Tarzan it seems millions do enjoy the Disney 'formula' so maybe there is something to the way they do things that just doesn't appeal to you.
I have to agree with Sketcher's comments regarding the fact that if Tarzan had of come from another studio such as Dreamworks, Harry and you all would have been drooling all over it. I'm sorry, but Prince of Egypt was not a masterpiece...it was ok, but not up to the Disney standard (I can picture you all reeling in shock as I type). Even Antz which was better than POE just didn't appeal in the same way A Bug's Life or Toy Story did (and to those who say Disney's best films are from Pixar I would like to point you all to a quote from John Lasseter that Pixar's ultimate aim for the future was to be "as good as Disney").
Now Harry says that Iron Giant is pure genious and you're all champing at the bit to see it despite having seen at most small snippits of it. Come on, Disney still produces quality animation despite the fact they are a massive company. Just because something is not Disney doesn't make it better. Trust me, Dreamworks and Warner set up animation departments to make profits and aren't any 'purer' that Disney.
I'm sorry, but when Harry claims Tarzan is his favourite of the new breed of Disney animated features and gives it such a mixed review, he loses credibility by disregarding classics such as Beauty & The Beast and Aladdin. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's noticed that every post relating to ANY animated Dreamworks project from Harry will always be positive. Same goes for IG. I also know I'm not the only person who found both Antz and POE disappointing.
Disney have produced entertainment which has taken millions, including myself, to amazing new places and tugged at our heartstrings. To dismiss their product whenever an 'independant' conglomerate such as Dreamworks or Warner Bros. comes along is completely one sided and thus not credible. I haven't seen Iron Giant so I can't comment. Most of you haven't seen Tarzan so you can't really comment.
Give Disney a chance or leave them alone. Also, Harry is not God. Start thinking for yourselves and stop letting this man influence your every thought on the world of cinema. -
Funmazer here! Weekly Sunday rant! I saw Tarzan yesterday, and I must say I rather enjoyed it! I will concur with the person above - it kicked POE's butt! I think it's silly to say the characters don't 'match' with the Deep Canvas backgrounds. In EVERY animated film, the backgrounds are very detailed, with tons of shading and what not, and the characters are just animated. Well, aren't they? So, it seems just because the camera can pan around now, that makes it different... Hm, no one said that about Beauty & the Beast during the ballroom scene. Probably because that was before the whole anti-Disney thing, which, along with the anti-Titanic thing, I'm getting sick of. Anyway. I do agree with Harry about a few things with this movie. The periscope trunk coulda have gone. It served no purpose, except to 'throw' the setting of the picture. The Rosie O' Donnel character really isn't as bad as we've all heard, she's not in it that much. The 'STOMP' musical number seems a little forced, but still kinda catchy. But, how on EARTH did Tonto climb aboard the ship? That was a strecth, I thought. Also, the villian was vastly underdeveloped. Disney has yet to top Gaston as far as modern animated villians go. Gaston worked so well because he didn't START as some mega-evil guy, he BECAME one because of jealousy and lust! More realistic, I think. Also, I do agree with Harry that Tarzan didn't have soul. As good as it was, it seemed a little 'empty'. I must say I did enjoy A Bug's Life more. That movie was just so THERE. I haven't seen ANTZ. Anyway, Tarzan is still worth seeing, better than Mummy Star Wars or Austin 2, but still no Matrix! And Beauty & the Beast still stands as the best modern animated film. Hands down. The script alone stills blows all this new stuff away. "Belle, it's about time you got your head out of those books and into more important things... [beat] ...Like me." Maybe that's why they stuck Mrs. Potts and Chip into Tarzan... But Tarzan's still good!!!
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First off, to Sir Cliff....
Thank you, thank you for the most intelligent talkback in ages. This anti-Disney movement has gotten way out of hand.
Tarzan's a great movie. I've already seen it twice and I will be back at least once more. The second time, I noticed some hidden jokes in the film that might interest you guys.
-The most obvious is Mrs. Potts and Chip from Beauty & the Beast in the human camp. Pretty easy to spot.
-Next, when Clayton's men are taking over the ship, one is holding on to Jane and she kicks him (I think). Well, if you look at him, he is the spitting image of Glen Keane, the supervising animator for Tarzan.
-Third, the trunk periscope part. The image of Clayton's boat entering the jungle is an homage to the Jungle Cruise ride at Disneyland and Walt Disney World. It's a perfect representation.
Just some little fun touches that add to the movie.
Last, I think that Glen Keane/Tony Goldwyn should be nominated for Best Actor at the oscars next year. Their combined efforts created the most amazing animated character in history. Not only was he physically impressive, but he had humor, intelligence, emotion, and soul. Traits that every human performance this year has lacked. I know the nomination would never happen but it is certainly deserved.
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Come on Harry! You thought Tarzan was the greatest thing since sliced bread and now this. I saw it yesterday and I thought it was amazing.Not only were the backgrounds stunning, the characters were beautifully animated. You spent all that time whining about Terk and Tantor when they weren't that bad. Everyone needs to get off of this Disney hating kick. These movies are for FUN, not deep critic evaluation. That alone takes the spark out of the film. I also saw the trailor for IG and not only did it not interest me, it told the entire story.I don't even need to see the movie because I've already seen the entire thing through the trailor. I can't help but wonder if your IG rivew will change with the release of another movie.
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i have 2 sy, reading the last few talkbacks, i was damn surprised.... i always thought i was the only 1 who visited this site that didnt hate disney...
now, i admit in hindsight a lot of the movies in hindsight were similar BUT watchin them, disney always manages 2 suck me in2 the story... watching anastasia & quest for camelot i found myself noticing exactly how it was a complete rip-off of the disney formula... with nothin new... with every disney movie, the story & animation manage 2 let me, @ least 4get about every other disney movie & judge it on its own merits... i loved tarzan & pretty much all the disney movies this decade...
its also unfair 2 call disney evil & greedy b/c they're a company... thats what every company does... deal with it...
ok, i'm done & i'm real glad i'm not the only 1 who loves isney...
& what's coming out next year? kingdom of the son, atlantis, or treasure planet? i thought it was kingdom, but that had 2 restart develoment last year.... so are we without disney next year?
ok.... peAce -
...unlike most of the earlier posters above. I generally love Disney animated films, but Tarzan has the same flaws that have burdened the late-90's pictures: dopey sidekicks engaging in wacky antics which either bring the show to a halt or at least leave you horrifiedly asking "Why?!" These are in fact not "characters", but marketing considerations, and it's just too too obvious! The gargoyles in HOND were the worst, but I wasn't crazy about Tarzan's elephant and ape friends either. They (as portrayed)just didn't fit. (And I like Rosie!--- just not in Tarzan.) The elephant-climbs-onto-ship and periscope stuff were also too ridiculous for this movie. However, the 40% or so of the film focusing on only Tarzan and/or Jane were outstanding. So here's my message to the Disney people: your films will be just as successful if you tell the stories without the "marketing considerations". Please, at least try. Then you might really have a *family film* instead of a kiddie flick, and be that much more successful because of it.
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I have to agree with Chyllin....I've never seen such support for Disney on this site, I also thought I was the only one. I saw the film twice this weekend and can't come up with the right superlatives for it...it's just sooooooo cooooollll. Can't wait to see what the Disney animators treat us with next.
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the key sentence from harry's review was "maybe thats not the movie they set out to make"...EXCATLY... so to criticize by either comparing it to another film or by to another style of animation disney DOESNT EVEN USE is completely irrelevant... and this gem on the backgrounds, "once i thought about it later it wasnt so cool" (with liberties)-- jesus christ people, the whole point is to impress you in the goddamn theater, not have it hold up to the demands of a discussion group who think more about film in one hour at the donut shop than most people will in their whole lives... and thats my final point--- i took my 5 year lod daughter to see tarzan this weekend, she laughed and was entertained, and yes, i enjoyed it too--- thats the audience for this film, not a group of pseudo-intellectual elitists who debate over anime vs. "corporate" vs. purity... this forum was and should be about those who love film, and yes, debate its merits-- but its now degenerated into a secondary group of elitists without portfolio that merely rehash arguements we can find at any seminar hosted by beret wearing college graduate assistants... sad
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I have to admit I like Disney animation. I have never understood all the critism those films get. This is not high art, this is not a movie for "geeks" , this is not a "film" at all. It's a cartoon for kids that their parents will enjoy also. I can't believe Harry with his ranblings about the true nature of Tarzan and the Burrough's books. It's a CARTOON! Disney had a warthog for a lion's best friend, for Pete's sake. What did you expect, Tarzan to gut that hunter and eat his liver? Atleast they explored the savagery of Tarzan in the battle with the leopord.
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Nope, this movie is not for all you geeks, that's what anime and star wars is for. This is a family movie. It's fun, escapist entertainment, pure and simple. If you like Disney, you'll love this film. If you don't like Disney, you'll probably hate it. Yes, it's formulaic and cheesy at times, but it has heart, something that Phantom Menace lacked.
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don't you dare say anything constructive about this movie. Don't voice your opinion, this movie's not for you. Eat and accept whatever crap is thrown your way, and if my kids get a giggle out of it, live with it, it 's a KIDS film. If you want darkness, or reality or a really gripping story, go read a book, oh you mean like Tarzan (the novel) which was a KIDS book and had action, murder, savagery etc...? Kids CAN deal with these things. I read Jules Vern and Jack London and Tarzan and Robert E. Howard as a kid. These all have action and sexuality etc.. and the "darkness" or whatever did NOT turn me into a mass murderer. Those stories thrilled me and gripped my young mind, triggering my imagination and leaving an indelible impression. Telling a cheesy, rehashed, second rate story and wrapping it up in the KIDS label is inexcusable. Don't sell kids short and don't you DARE criticize anyone for voicing their opinion just because they're "geeks" or because they didn't enjoy the film as much as you did.
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OK...I don't claim to be in the same league as some of you. From what I've seen of animee, it's interesting but not what I'd want to see every day. However, I do agree that Disney animation has gone downhill fast in the last few years. I didn't even like "Lion King" all that much, and felt like "Hercules" was scraping the bottom of the barrel.
Maybe the (somewhat) negative publicity prior to release tempered my expectations of Tarzan.
I have to tell you, I was very impressed. Like a few others here have mentioned, I felt the music really fit the film...Phil Collins did a great job, IMO, far better then ol' Elton. The powerful song with vocals at the very beginning, pausing in the midst of the action, and then starting again, somewhat of a departure of technique for Disney.
There was a lushness to the animation that's been missing for a few years...perhaps because of stylistic desicions for Mulan and Hercules. Most of the time, I felt the computer generated stuff fit fairly well with the cell stuff. There were a few scenes where the difference really stuck out. But not many.
The characters. Well, Tarz and Jane were just delightful. A great example of how well-crafted animation can transcend the limitations of live film, but somehow these characters had life. Jane's Dad...sigh, just what is needed in family films, another clueless father. Oh well, maybe I shouldn't go there. The villian, Clayton, reminded me too much of the villian in Pocahantas. And yes, this is the year of the dumb-and-totally-unnecessary-movie-sidekick, isn't it?
Well, the four of us in my family, DH, myself, two girls ages 10 and 6 absolutely loved it. We all agreed it was more enjoyable than SW-TFM. -
I had to read Tarzan a long time ago, for a college class. Now, I admitt, that with my foggy brain and recent versions of both "The Jungle Book" and "George of the Jungle" that I might be confusing my jungle-men.
But somehow, I hope Disney can get past the politcally-correct stuff SOMETIME. Like turning Tarzan into a story about how we should all (apes and men) just get along together in a nice jungle utopia? Whatever happened to Tarz discovering his human identity and the ongoing conflict that creates within him?
If they had had any guts, they would have advanced the early part of the story without dialogue. Having Tarz switch between verbal language in English for communicating with the gorillas, then verbal language in English to communicate with people...well, makes it easier for kids, but it's a cop-out. -
I just read on the Entertainment Weekly website that in the opening of the film, we see the leopard stalk and attack Tarzan's parents. However, when I saw it (twice), it was merely implied with blood-stained pawprints and a trashed treehouse. Was this scene edited at the last minute for being too intense for younger viewers? Any info from anyone would be greatly appreciated.
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Tarzan is the best animated film to date both animation and storywise. The camera movements are no less than perfection(no film in memory has lived up that standard). Disney sure is back on grip to secure its reign.
-Walter- -
I'm back. Just wanted to throw this in the mix... A while ago, someone reviewer said they didn't like how Jane's father decided to stay in Africa. Well, I totally agree! See, when Jane stays, there's a motivation for it. However, what is the motivation for her father to stay? Ok, he loves his daughter, but, still, letting her stay is akin to 'giving her away' for marriage. So, what was the point of him staying? It seemed kinda tacked-on. At no point in this movie did you see the father revile in his 'love' of Africa. Whereas Jane, obviously, ate it up the whole time! Also, at several points in the movie, it is implied/suggested that Jane should stay. Never her father. Oh, well. It was still really good. OK DISNEY HATERS! This movie not only had Tarzan pressing into Jane's breasts, BUT, at the end, they are LIVING IN SIN! How can you not like that? What about when he takes off her glove? That's a metaphor, OBVIOUSLY! Ok, I'm done.
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this is in reply to "SIR CLIFF"
although thy're are many doofus's
on this post page--i'll reply to you later--first to sir cliff.,.,you said that 'walt wa no different--he helped pioneer the merchandising culture"..again lat me just say(agian)that i have nothing against merchandising..what i do have a problem is when the merchandising comes before the fact of making a GREAT movie..you gotta have a raccoon,or a fish or a talking dog,or a monkey or a gaggle of talkin monkeys(all with new and improved braidable hair!!weeeee!!)..why??because of sheer and blatant cashflow from the kiddies.now you may have no problem with that,me?when it brings the entire story to a screeching halt...and you have to sit through the forced garbage thats passed off as "comic relief"--for me--i have a problem with that..going back to walt--when walt came out with steamboat willie---theater owners wanted "more mice"---he wanted to move on.,.,push forward...that attitude led to the more advanced(in acting) silly symphonies like the three little pigs..,ten they wanted "more pigs"
walt still wanted to advance forward---which in turn led o "snow shite"--your right,walt was a pioneer---not just in merchandise--but first and formost--VISION...ARTISTIC VISION.
he improved--and tried NEW things --not justthe same old thing--time after time after time!!
You also said that millions love it.......it just doesnt appeal to you..." yes millions love it...their CONDITIONED to..if it has the "disney"logo on it they automatically think its great--i mean really...they by their own advertising say its a "classic" i mean people are gonna see the name value and think "oh lets go"--after all they (disney )have a rep..and audiences know exactly what it is they are getting --LITTERALLY----ITS A "safe" bet
and thats not a good thing,and thats why none of the newer era of films will come close to what they did in the past(at least not while they are rehashing the same formula-instead of creating and stomping out new ground for themselves)
you said "POE was not a masterpiece"...no,,POE was not a masterpiece--maybe if they woulda called it a self proclaimed "classic"you woulda felt differently about it as you seem to when disney does it--
the thing with POE is that love it or hate it.,.,its almost irrelevant.WHY?well because while you can love it or hate it--either way you HAVE to admit at least they had the BALLS to do a totally different type of subject matter---with all kinds of risks to it!!and you know what??whether YOU (or any of these other lemmings)decide that you hate it.,.,it SUCCEEDED!!over a hundred million if im not mistaken.
WITHOUT the benefit of a marketing blitz!WITHOUT the stupid cheap blatantly merchandisable talking monkeys, fish,crabs,raccons,etcetc AND ETC!!so they're must've been SOME PEOPLE THAT LIKED IT,RIGHT??
you said that "just because its not disney doesnt make it better"...true..and just because it IS disney doesnt make it "an incredible movie"(ie:hunchback,hercules,pochasquante,etc etc)--a"classic"my eye!!
then you said"disney creates entertainment that takes millions to amazing new places and tugs at heartstrings".....look...disney does what disney does..as i said ,you know exactly what your gonna get when you go to a disney feature..almost to the point where youknow when the songs are gonna come up...people know its a safe bet,and they're comfortable with that..that doesnt make it a great movie!it makes it a "safe" movie..the audience is just getting the "three little pigs"over and over and over again..or the steamboat willie over and over and over again..perhaps you like seeing the same movie over and over again..and for you thats fine..your conditioned and your comfortable with that.fine.
i for one am NOT a "disney basher"
im merely being honest..i love disney which is why it pains me to see such talent doing the same thing over and over and over agian...i am with the others who get really excited about the possiblity of another studio doing something that might be just the teensiest bit different!why/because it is different..and not the same old song and dance..im hungry for another perspective of how it "could"be not "how its been"
you like the "safe bet" of your comfort zone--I want a DIFFERENT VISION......so...who is it again that needs to "think for ones self?"
--------------with all due respect(but just barely)--"spooks" -
Well Spooks, firstly I have to say that I was happy to see someone from 'the other side' taking the time to type out their opinions in a rational manner - not that it means that I agree with them! Your comments about Walt Disney are all valid, particularly in reference to the earlier animated features. However, his films were made over long periods of time with differing public tastes and economic realities. The modern Disney films we are talking about have all taken place in the space of ten relatively stable years which is a factor which must be taken into account. I must admit, though, that after typing my last message I sat down and watched Pinocchio and the shear level of artistry in that film (and many of Walt's other features) is something I have yet to see rivaled (even in Walt's later films, lets not forget 'The Sword In The Stone'). However, I also came to the realization that if Pinocchio was made today only a fraction of the kids who saw Tarzan. It was made in a different time for a different audience.
You stated that the merchandising now comes before the plot of Disney's new animated features and I have to say that I personally think that this is a myth. The most obvious example to me where merchandising opportunities were limited is Hunchback where the closest thing to 'cuddly' characters were gargoyles who were frankly quite ugly and intended to aleviate tense moments within the film for the younger viewers (no, I don't think they worked well...) Hercules had nothing other that action figures of Herc and I'm pretty sure he was not included in the movie simply to sell merchandise and in Mulan dolls of the title character were once again the only real surefire merchandise and they even convinced Mattel to tone down her, ahhh, physique so she would be less Barbie and more the character in the movie. In Tarzan there are animals and shock horror they are going to make toys of them. Do you suggest if they had made the movie without animals or with completely silent and emmotionless ones it would have worked better and enthralled audiences as much? Even in Pocahontas I felt Meeko worked well and was a logical sidekick for Pocahontas to have. I also don't really have a problem with Disney sticking comic characters in to lift the tone of the movies as they are pitched at kids who generally love these characters. As for Walt expanding the medium of animation, well I think Disney's made some impressive strides in recent times too. While people write it off as being 'historically inaccurate' and somewhat bland, I personally felt that Pocahontas was one of the most beautifully treated stories Disney has ever attempted. The animation was breathtaking and the whole mode of the film was unusually subdued for Disney (which is what many complained about). With Hunchback Disney attempted to make a difficult piece of literature accessable to mainstream audiences while keeping the main themes in tact. While I think they failed to succeed in many areas on this one, I felt that the film's dealings with religion and sexuality (two things Walt said Disney wouldn't tackle) were surprisingly complex and their pointing out of the hypocracy often present in organised religion (although they unfortunately changed Frollo from a clergyman to judge) was spot on. Hercules was not a great film, IMHO, but I think the animation stretched Disney in a new artistic direction which was anything but 'safe' and Mulan was also a more subdued take on deeper issues such as honor and responsibility. While they haven't lept head-first in a completely new artistic direction, I feel that in recent years they have sufficiently expanded their artistic repertoire even if the results were sometimes mixed (which comes with experimentation). I won't deny that Disney likes to include set elements in each film such as comic relief and showtunes, but this is what people (including myself) want from an animated feature. For example, Saving Private Ryan was a brilliant live-action film, but as an animated film in would have fallen flat as people don't want to be confronted by reality in an artform based on fantasy. I like escaping into a work of talking critters and I love songs like 'Be Our Guest' and 'Colours of The Wind'; they are part of what give animation a defined place in the world of movies. And I'm sorry, but if Disney wasn't producing animated films which were appealing to large audiences the Disney logo would have lost its credibility sometime during the past ten years. They have a good reputation because they are good. You say that people only like Disney films because they are conditioned to, but what about the period of Disney animation from 68-86 after Disney produced up until then their most successful animated feature even, The Jungle Book? You also say audiences know exactly what they're going to get from a Disney film which I think is closer to the mark in that people know they will get an unoffensive 'safe' and *entertaining* night out for the family (must everything be pitched exclusively at adults?). They are different films with certain similar characteristics. I don't agree they are all the one film over again; actually make an effort to sit down and watch POCA, HOND, HERC, MULAN and TARZAN over a short period of time and I'm sure you'll notice (if you are at all objective) that while they have similar threads (as Disney did even when Walt was around) they are different thematically and in tone, etc.. BTW, I don't think every Disney film is a masterpiece; personally I thought Hercules was extraordinarily weak. However, on the whole they produce a higher standard of animation that any other studio who's work I've seen and thus I prefer their work. I'm sorry, but the idea that liking Disney is not thinking for onesself is ridiculous. Trust me, the dominant discourse of this group (and site as a whole) is very much that Disney are inferior and EVERYONE here makes the exact same comments and start salivating about films they haven't seen any scenes from simply because Harry goes mad over them. To say you enjoy Disney on here involves a lot more thinking than the parroting of Harry's thoughts which seem very much in vogue on these boards. Oh, and trust me, they could have stuck 'classic' on POE and it still wouldn't have been any better and if Dreamworks ever gets a good rep in animation I'm sure they will use it. I also felt that, while it didn't have much merchandise, POE was marketed pretty agressively to the point where the previews were pretty much a given at any movie I saw throughout most of '98. And, yes, I conceed that they chose source material that was daring, but I thought the result was less that spectacular. I think Disney also attempted a little gothic novel called 'The Hunchback of Notre Dame' a while back...
Anyway, I'm sorry for ranting for so long, but I look forward to the next round! -
ok... i'm sick of people tellin me (or other people) that theres no possible way i coulld like a disney movie... i must be conditioned 2 like it... i like them... 4 real... it isnt impossible... tarzan was great ... but i willl admit that i wouldve love tarzan if there was no story or anything just swinging & shit... cuz the animation was fantastic... but disney makes good movies, although i'm not gonna debate that formula is getting a lil old... i do see that... but they continue 2 make good movies with that formula even if there isnt any innovation story-wise, they still make good movies with that formula... & its not like we've lost all hope 4 those of u who cant stand the formula... atlantis, treasure planet, lielo & stitch, fantasia 2000, & maybe kingdom of the sun all look like consious decisions from disney 2 try 2 break the formula... but remember there will probably always be comic relief... its been that way, even since walt was in charge... if it wasnt 4 the gargoyles in hunchback that wouldve been 2 dark 4 a lot of kids & THATS who disneys making these movies 4... the fact that older people enjoy them is an added bonus... now... a few years a go when there were no other studios making good animated movies, u wouldve had a reason 2 complain about disney... they are the only animation studio out there... but now: if u dont like them, theres plenty of other animated studios out there... go watch prince of egypt (which i liked) or iron giant (which i wanna see)... disney animation will always be here... & whether u wanna believe me or not, i genuinely like them...
--peAce-- -
Is there something wrong with being a geek?
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that was a wonderful, moderate and reasonable response to a tired, elitist rant from spooks... really, even in his reply to you he couldnt let go of the CONDITIONED line...he reminds me of a tired old marxist repeating the old mantras in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary--if only we all had "open" minds like spooks we could see THE TRUTH... its so much tired bullshit-- "stop them before they see disney again, stop you fools!"... it makes me laugh, and only confirms (in my "conditioned" mind)the truth of my earler post on this subject...anyway, bravo again mr. cliffs
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hi brian,let me first say thanks for your reply--and i mean that with all sincerity.now about your post:
you said that i "couldnt let go of the 'conditioned line'"why ?because its the truth--its sad i know,and actually quite embarassing to admit it for alot of people---.
then you go on to-- rather than have a "intellectual'' conversation about film and debate its merits"(as you said in your earlier post)instead you chose to attempt to insult me,by laughably comparing me to a tired old marxist --blah blah blah..
i did get a giggle out of that though...not so much for being called a marxist for having an opinion on animated features,and stating that opinion with very valid points--but mainly just because you have SOME sort knowledge of marxism--that was a hoot!!
there really isnt much in your posts(either one)to really bother having a REAL conversation about..but i will say this..
ELITE:"the choice of best of anything considered collectively."
to call me or anyone else who longs for somthing just a bit different in animation,is rather silly.i assure you we are in the minority---but the facts are the facts.if your happy with what they give you--the same old same old..then chances are that thats how you like your life as well..the same old same old,,try a little change once in a while,,then after a while you might demand a little more,instead of getting the same...you'll get "BETTER"---
--------ps:next time let your five year old write the post--she might add a bit more of an intellectual slant to the conversation.now i have to go and post a reply to sir cliff--being that he at least thinks out his responses--take care....
-------------no offence(but i sure hope some was taken)-----spooks -
GOTTA GET UP EARLY TOMMOROW SIR CLIFF--I'LL WRITE MY REPLY TO YOUR LATEST POST ON WEDNESDAY---ITS GONNA BE A LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG ONE --
SO BRING A LUNCH!:)
-----------------SPOOKS -
spooks, thanks for the note... a couple points, as suggested by my five year old... first, its obvious that you possess intelligence and passion (though to my mind misguided) so i'm sure you realized in reading my post that the marxism reference was an ANALOGY (i'd provide a webster's definition as you did, but that might look a bit snotty), used to convey the point that in the face of overwhelming evidence, you persist in putting down what has undeniable (though uneven) quality in the name of a desire for something "better"... there is a real difference between longing for perfection (or the closest possible facsimile)while expressing that desire vigorously, and doing what your first posts did and put down people who enjoy disney films and find a modicum of artistic merit in them... your posts did the latter, without paying respect to the former (or did you mean something else when you refer to "conditioned" "sheep", etc?)... i'd be glad to argue the point of what constitutes great animation, but i'd like to do that without sliming the millions of people who enjoy disney as brainwashed fools who if they only "knew better", would run from that crap in droves... while your throwing out definitions, consider both of the possible approaches i suggest, and then consult webster's for the definition of MATURITY...
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Frankly, I don't care if anyone thinks Disney's the cat's ass or not: IMHO they put out trite, sappy, formulaic films which may be visually impressive, but overall have little depth.
Is this a sin? Of course not, but as Spooks stated, what's wrong with longing for something more? Something that doesn't hit you over the head with it's "for kids"-ishness. Space Jam sucked for the same reason.
I think much of Rodzilla's earlier post was very on-the-mark. I'm tired of the formula, and I'm tired of Disney being treated like geniuses. They have no real competition, so they can put out whatever half-assed retread they want, and it'll make zillions.
Don't get me wrong - I like some of their stuff (a lot), but I think their quality-to-release ratio is very low.
I'm not some arthouse movie geek, in fact I'm a casual film fan, but there are so many "standard issue" elements in their animated cash-cows that make my skin crawl that I find it diffucult to get past them. Each release has a feeling of sameness from the time I see the first commercial to the first McDonald's promotional item I'm offered.
To each his own, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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great.... u have an opinion.... u told us all... you're entitled... i don't have a problem wit that... in fact, i'm glad some1 expressed their opinion without bein an asshole... i have no problem with people not liking disney... i gotta problem wit people sayin that i've been conditioned 2 like it... i've seen the competition... i like disney... that's all this "sheep" has 2 say... well there may be more... who knows
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hi "sir cliff"...let me first say
that i've enjoyed our past post's,
and like you i dont agree with you a bit!but i DO respect your inellegence and thoughtfullness in your posts--you seem like someone i'd havefun arguing with over a pot(or two)of coffee...
now!,,,,onto my reply..you mentioned that the early disney films "were made over a long period of time with differing public tastes and economical realities"..
what follows are release dates for the "big five";;;;;
SNOW SHITE:december--1937
PINOCCHIO:february---1940
FANTASIA:november----1940
DUMBO:october--------1941
BAMBI:august---------1942
looking at the release dates for these (INCREDIBLE)films they seems to say to me that they were NOT made over "long periods of time"..and judging their artistic measures(story and art) by this makes them even MORE astounding!!THIS was true experimentation!!and stand out as some of most brilliant stuff on screen(not just for "cartoons"--and not just MY opinion)
as for your point on "differing public taste's and economic realities"..well,im afraid youlost me on that..im not quite sure i understand what your point is exactly--but I WILL say that not all of these were box office hits on initial release--after snow white's success,pinocchio bombed,
PINOCHIO BOMBED!!one of the most experimental films in subject matter(the darkness of it is incredible!!)and..it bombed
now after that-- walt couldve went back to making the type of film that made snow white such a hit..he chose instead to make---FANTASIA.(hello ?expermentaion?beauler?)
which also didnt to to well on initial release.
and as far as those "economical times" that you spoke of...all these films of such vast experimentaion while WORLD WAR TWO was breaking out!!which wiped out 45%of the disney market(europe)
--as war went on he continued to make bold steps,,continued to take chances--through "economic (hard) realities",through war,through "differing public tastes"--if anything,this underlines MY point.
you then go on to say that "the modern films of late have all been made in the past ten years--stable
years."(which doesnt add to your argument one bit)..i might also say that in those ten years they've done it with probably four times the crew and about 99.200.000$ more than what they had for the budget on DUMBO--(thats ninety nine MILLION TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND-not including the cost of advertising)..and we get NO originality,NO daring experimentaion,NO breaking at all with the good ole formula..and apparently not even a DESIRE to--therefore .. nothing that comes close to touching any of the
classic films...films that have actually earned that right to be called in the truest form--a "classic"----and youd think with the budgets that we have today and our throngs of people/crew and our much vaunted technology would be able to come up with a different way of telling a story--wouldnt ya think??hmm well..just goes to show that with so much at your disposle, can cause many to just plain get lazy in their thinking,,and therfore fall back on the "tried and true"..
much more to come sir cliff --i gotta go kiss the wife--more in about an hour or so---i'll answer no other posts till i get done replying to yours----{{dingding!!!}}
-------spooks -
hello...in continuing my reply..
you then stated that "if PINOCHIO were made today--only a fraction of the kids who saw tarzanwould see it--different time,different audience"...to that,let me point out that PINOCHIO,,a movie made almost over 60 YEARS AGO..has been re-released and re-released AND RE-RELEASED-OVER AND OVER ANDD OVER AGAIN!throughout generations(hear me now..i said GENERATIONS)--and when it was released on video(finally!)it **broke records**.and.. that, if im not mistaken was only a few years ago
this movie has stood the time,because it WAS the original---not the well polished imitation.--care to re-evaluate your statement?
You then state that you think that "..merchandise before plot is myth..and cite the hunchback as an example--that the cutest thing for a toy was the ugly gargoyals."
...hmmmmmso...i guess all the esmerelda and her fiesty goat dolls and shirts and thebeachtowels,backpacks,lunchboxes,underwear,pajamas,shoes,stuffed animals,phoebus shield and sword(with action sounds!!)hunchback coloring books,sound books and sound toys,esmerelda jewelry,hair scarves--(etc etc etc)guess those dont count,huh?,.,.,JEESH!!even howard stern (which i never listen to!)said that he cant keep up with all the hunchback crap that his daughter wants!but okay..obviously i cant sway you with the facts--and again--i dont have anything against merchandising--only where you get the feel that the character in the movie is there ONLY to sell a toy.and not advancing te story or plot(new!!! in stores different colored monkeys with braidable stink hair!!and dont miss our pink elephant toy--hes nutty!!--oh no no!!my mistake!!he DID advance the story didnt he??i mean he had to climb on board the ship and rescue tarzan--tarzan,who wrassled his head of the tribe gorilla father and held him for a ten count!!not to mention killed the legendary big cat that nearly killed that same gorilla father and terrorized
the jungle for years!(think they'll have a stuffed animal of him?hmmm)but YET, couldnt beat some fat pirate guy...
but again i cant sway you with the facts...
you then say "if it were made without the animals,would it have been a better movieand enthralled audiences as much?"
let me say this---YES!the parts of tarzan that i loved was the part with him and jane..the part where he is learning from jane---and IN those parts were wonderful(if brief for fear of some stupid loud mouthed obnoxoius ape bounding in).its the "relationship"between tarzan and the jane character that touches and enthralls--expound even MORE on that relationship,and the relationship between his jungle family--cut out the nonsence of monkeys and elephants(at least the LARGNESS of their role!!)and have more time for the heart of the movie rather than have it in quick flashes--just to get through it quickly so you can have time to sell some toys.
you tell me---wasnt the relationship with tarzan and jane what you really wanted to see expounded on?what you REALLY LOVED!!if not then we truley do want different things from a movie--by your own admission--you want the talking monkeys--thats where you saw the "comic relief"
..i saw it(the comic relief) in the learning sequence..i saw it in the curious sequece where he's finding out that there are things that look like him...i want "smart comic relief",and more of it!you..and not meant as a slight towards you--only using your own words..you want the "talkin animals"....okaaaaay...
wife needs to use the phone--part three comin atcha in a few!!!
----------------------spooks
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the merchandising--mega mechandising--of hunchback, i am not doubting... but i think what sir cliff meant was the characters weren't put in the story just 4 merchandising... surely u dont believe esmerelda was just stuck in hunchback 2 sell toys... THAT was the myth, he speaks of (i'm assuming)... the myth that disney just sticks characters in a movie 2 sell toys...
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i didnt finish reading your post... u did realize that... k... sorry... but the esmerelda thing kinda had no point if u understood that... k... ignore my post people
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Anime is "static" because waaaay back when it was getting started, there wasn't a whole lot of money available for each episode; and it was a lot easier (and therefore cheaper) to draw characters standing around while their lips flapped than to draw people waving their arms around in the air and shaking their heads back and forth. The extra money went to the eye-candy action sequences, while the character interaction and exposition (which didn't generally require a whole lot of movement anyway) got the short end of the stick.
That said, I have to say that the plot of 'Akira' isn't really all that much more complicated than the plot to 'The Matrix' (which, I note, everyone complained about too...)
Finally, the reason anime is seen as "only for geeks" is that for a long time only geeks have had the kind of connections you needed to _get_ anime. These days, you can find it in any Suncoast (or the equivalent.) And moreover, people don't say that the translated Japanese stuff shown on TV was originally anime (i.e. Robotech, Voltron, Pokemon.)
Oh, and 'anime' isn't a "PC" term, it's the actual Japanese word for 'animated movie or televion show'; "Simpsons" is called 'anime' in Japan. Though, to be true, calling anime 'Japanimation' is kind of like calling jazz 'Nigger Music'...
ObAnimePlugs: "Outlaw Star", from Animevillage.com; "Bubblegum Crisis 2040", from ADVision. -
If you read the book you'll find this film is pretty accurate with its characterisation.
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hey sir cliff--just wanted to say--that i'll write my final part to my response to your post later(gotta git to work)-=-sorry about it being so long,but you did cover alot of ground!!and i think your comments deserve a good response--i dont know if many people outside of you will bother to read my responses to you--because they ARE so long and would require some reading (and thinking by them)all with out the aid of pretty pictures or a 3-d background to WOW 'EM!!----
so--last part comin atcha tonight.
like how i feel about the movie you claim to be the most "beautifully treated stories ever attempted"........ugh
-------------------spooks -
i know i'm not really part of this conversation but i love disney 7 havent surpressd my opinions thus far & figured, why stop now? pinocchio was started over b/c the story got too dark... so walt added jiminy cricket... hunchback was pretty damn dark... so tehy added the gargoyles (and in the book, quasimodo spoke with the gargoyles... they just went an extra step & let them talk back)... & of course u can predict when songs are coming... thats when the background music wells up... & u're right... pinocchio failed, but disney is a corporation... they dont want to make movies that fail... i mean like it or not, pocahontas was a huge departure from the formula... & how are the pro-disney people sheep by expressing their opinion on this site? we're the minority here... ok i'm done 4 now... glad 2 see there's some peopl on these talk backs who can argue with valid points... good job 2 both of u (though i agree with sir cliff)...
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spooks, you fail to convince me and i doubt you convince anyone reading this board including grandmaster cliff of your views on disney, tarzan, and animation. you say disney is still rolling with a 60 year old formula. well, that's a pretty broad formula, you seem to think the films ranging from song of the south to mulan are all pretty much the same. i don't know if you know how to be objective or if the concept of being so even interests you. you first tore up disney and weakly put a disclaimer at the end refuting the whole entry. cliff came in and called you a disney hater, perhaps too quickly. you don't hate disney, you hate something larger, perhaps you hate what disney has done to the animation industry and that they continue to dominate it. you crave something amazingly fresh and new and disney has not delivered to you. cliff finally got back to you careful to intro his talkback with some agreement. he came to disney's defense. he rationally weighed disney's pro's and con's explaining away so easily, meeko and his forest friends, he gave a well rounded argument supporting disney's claims on the medium. he had in fact explained his views so well to you that you struggled over a series of talkbacks to get him to see your view. yet i believe your perspective is unclear even to yourself. it's easy to find similarities and differences in things. it depends on how important those things are between disney's films that decide whether it's worth it to watch more than a few. for many of us, the differences are great enough. but you see them as the same product with a different name, slightly different style and not much else. how do you justify your comments with such blatant theming differences between hercules and tarzan, films released 2 years apart. how do you justify your comments when the stories of aladdin and pocahontas differ so widely. yes there are wisecracking sidekicks, yes there are songs, yes it has been designed to appeal to all ages, all people. i can understand your grouping mermaid, beast, and aladdin as a trio. they are the same. but outside of that, motives of main characters, story structures, lessons children and watchful listening adults can take from these films run a colorful spectrum. if anyone is out to lunch when comparing disney films to one another, it's you. you think of disney lovers as mindless twits. and some of them are, the ones buying their kids esmeralda sneakers, they are. but some of us realize what disney is trying to do despite their commercial obligations. they are in a fight against themselves, the end product is a compromise, and lately (tarzan) the kind of compromise that yields truly astounding result. your original statement was clear, but your defense is muttled, forced, and as i said earlier unconvincing. to cliff, you have not responded to spooks but i look forward to it. chyllin, your responses, while they have not caught the eye of spooks, have been completely refreshing for me. tarzan, it's honest. it's fantastic.
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If Tarzan were real, I'd be out with the him and the gorillas right now. He looks SEXY, in my opinion. I should tell my boyfriend to go live in africa with the apes for a while and see if he comes back looking like that.mmm......
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back again---part three
sir cliff--you then state thatthe current group have made strides as well"and that in your opinion"pochahantes was the most beautifully treated stories ever attempted..and "the animation was breathtaking"...well that truley did stagger me--i think pochahantes was quite posibly the worst pile that disney has put out.,.the story was AWFUL!!and yes
bland,uninteresting,downright boring in many spots--the villian was a throwaway(again boring,bland and uninteresting)..in this terrible excuse for a "classic"the best things about it WERE the "merchandise characters"!!...
as far as the animation..well,,,i remember leaving the theater extremelly depressed...thinking to myself:"oh man!!they've gone back to the rotoscope days!!!!"
the animation for the whole movie was sooooooooooooooooo ultra realistic that if it wasnt rotoscoped--well it sure felt like it was AND looked like it was--
which went back to the questions you have to ask yourslf when starting out in an animated feature...."why are we doing this?...is this something that could just be done in live action?
and probably done better?"
pochahantes was awful,theres no other way to define it...unless you were to use the words i used earlier..."bland,boring,and just plain....UNINTERSTING(not to mention--ROTO-SCOPED)
but!!you thought it was "breathtaking"--that being the case,let me suggest another film that you should find breathtaking.,.,"LORD OF THE RINGS"..in "pochahantes"they do roto almost as well as in "RINGS"
you state that "in recent years they havent exactly lept head first in new artistic directions..but they have expanded their artistic repartoi--and that comes with experimentation"
well im glad i can at least get that concession from you...as far as "expanding their artistic repartoi.."...look,ive never really had a problem with the way their film "look"(with exception to 'pochahantes'),their "look"is always BEAUTIFULL!!incredible animation!incedible background paintings!!wonderful cleanup!and fabulous art-direction!!my problems for the most part stem from the same formulaic way to tell a story that they've been doing since forever!!but aparently,the eyecandy is enough to satisfy many here..and if thats what they want well...okay...its a rather lazy way to think(or worse--NOT to!!"ooooo look at the pretty back grounds...oooooooo!look at the tarzan swing tru da viiiiiines...)
but again..if that whats wanted by those people then so be it!!they'll be more then satisfied!!why?because they're not demanding of more..and sure not demanding of better--
you said that "thats what people want in features...showtunes and comic relief"...well i hope that they would want a little bit more CLEVER type of comic relief,but then again probably not--requires to much thinkin'...as far as the showtunes---look,thats another thing i dont have anything against--i love the musicals--let me re-phrase that..i love musicals when they're done RIGHT..and in my opinion disney stopped making them right circa "ALADDIN".Everything after that has just been a song thrown in here,a song thrown in there!none of which forwards the story..none of which advances the characters or helps develope them in a clever and interesting way..they are just thrown in there
because they feel"well we've GOT to have a song here right?"YUCk!!"
if you cant make them right---dont make them at all..certainly not because you feel you HAVE TO!!
as far as your comment about
"private ryan" being animated...oh man!!when did i say that i EVER wanted to see that??NOOOOOOO!!thats not what i want!not at all!!if disney ever tried to do a picture like that--so live action oriented,MEANT for live action--youd end up with the most inane,gross,pile of garbage...well,actually youd end up with pochahantes.some things you just gotta leave alone.im glad disney appeals to large audiences,,i dont want animation to be sooo adult oriented--i just want it to be smart,clever,and creative in its storytelling.i dont think thats asking to much..and THAT to me is: "what gives animation a place in the world of cinema"..but people who like just pretty pictures,and songs FOR SONGS SAKE, will probably disagree.
As far as their "good rep,because their good"...well,they ARE good.
they tell a "good" story...no denying that!!the problem is:they've been telling that "good story" for a verrrrrrrrrrryyyyy looong tiiiiiime!!same formula,over and over and over agian.
you ask..."people are conditioned?what about from 68'-86?"...what about it?aside from walt dying in 1966(and the studio floundering).. audiences were sidetracked by teeny weeny itsy bitsy movies as:
"2001","STAR WARS","JAWS""CLOSE ENCOUNTERS"and yes,"INDIANA JONES"
many of these movies (STAR WARS)were breakthrough techological wonders that stunned audiences with their special effects,and wow'ed them with their
developed and interesting characters,that you rooted for!(INDIANA JONES)..story telling that was fresh and wonderful,,while disney had in turn,became a parody of themselves..
when i say that theyve become the "safe bet"---and that audiences know what they're getting"--i dont mean that in a good way--yes they know that they're getting an unoffensive nite out...great!!thats good---whats not good is that theyve seen the movie already---they know the story by heart-- EXACTLY--almost to the point of where the songs are gonna be.its like eating the same hamburger every day--only switching the mustard to the bottom of the bun..again..have we learned to tell a story only one way??sheeesh!
you" dont agree that its the same story" --will be in my very last part to you sir cliff--gotta send this before computor locks up..------------spooks
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hey sir cliff--my very last post in response to yours will be tommorrow--and i'll make it brief---to the rest of you--i know that mr sir cliff and i probably took this to the realm of insanity,and i thank you for your indulgence--he had an inteligent post loaded with good stuff and i felt it warranted a good response.
------------spooks -
ok... here i am again... disney is kinda my thing, i've always wanted 2 be a disney animator... i'm only 15 so i got a while but i kinda feel obligated 2 defend it anyway... thinking about the disney formula... if u think about it... almost every movie ever made follows the same formula if u wanna get down 2 it... protagonist faces conflict... there's your formula tried & true... why cant hollywood make something different? no i realize that u arent totally off in that disney utilizes songs & sidekicks... but thinking about it... that hardly makes up a formula... & no1 complained about it when talking about walt's movies... & a lot of the characters weren't just tacked on 2 disney movies but were actual characters from the original stories that disney added comedy to or were somehow implied by the story & disney just took it further (notice, i in no way claim this about all of them)... but even if u can't stand the sidekicks, i think it's unfair 2 say they're just there 2 sell toys... they're there 2 keep the little kids happy... & most of the kids genuinly love these characters... the plot is 4 us... thats why it's a family movie... if the sidekicks bug us, we shrug it off & acknowledge that its a family movie & take it 4 what it is... just like a lot of little boys wont give 2 fucks whether tarzan goes back with jane... i didnt when i was little... i didnt care about jasmine... so the sidekicks have a purpose... 2 entertain little kids... & i never read the book but from what i've heard there was no cheetah in the book, instead there was a monkey named terkoz (terk any1?)... she did serve a purpose... she was a character in the story... & =i know every hated side kick in every disney movie would've been overlooked if it was from dreamworks... o & in prince of egypt (which harry was gushing about how it was such a departure from disney)... does any1 remember 2 characters that seemed a little comic relief-ish... steve martin & martin short? (i think...)... i'm done 4 now... tarzan's great... do NOT take harry's word 4 it... see it or don't see it but do NOT avoid it b/c of harry's misguided review... ok, now i'm really done
--peAce -
spooks, your arguements and reasoning are so well thought out that your STILL replying to ONE brilliant post from sir cliffs...3,4..."oh and one more thing"... i'm sure you'd characterize my last response to you as not worth responding to, which is why i havent heard back in your numerous replies since then...if you can reply to nothing else, please tell us why you persist in denigrating disney and those who might defend them, rather than simply accepting that there's a valid place for that form, which is legitimate in its own right, while arguing for for something better from someone else? surely there are other companies out there?
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Well, I didn't see The Iron Giant, but I still couldn't help noticing two things about Tarzan.
1.) While the background animation was intricate and eye-pleasing, it was in such a different style than the foreground characters that one of them needed to be changed.
2.) I liked most of the characters, but the ones that were formula (the elephant, the Rosie O'Donnell gorilla, and Jane's Dad) cheapened the story a bit. I wish Disney would put just a tiny bit more faith in its movies and not go there. Yes, I know, Hunchback sort of tried to break from the norm and they got bitten in the ass for it, but it still remains a good movie. And I suppose it's human nature to take two steps back when you get hurt, but the is the company that supposedly revolutionized animated films by taking big chances with films like Fantasia. Eventually you'll get it right,guys. Just know that (oh, no- I smell a cliche coming on...) you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. -
cliff, your silence intrigues me. how your entry way up there in this scroll has had spooks explaining himself for so long is equally facinating.
spooks, he must have really struck a chord with you because cliff's argument is not inflamatory, i don't know why you have obsessed over it. he stated mere facts, facts which you can not accept. i don't know if you bother to read this, since it is cliff and cliff alone with whom you speak. but i will convey to whoever might be reading that i agree wholeheartedly with cliff on the pocahontas front. it was daring to take on that story, it played beautifully and the characters were as real as any live action film would make them. it was an adultish, quiet for the most part, delicate film. pocahontas herself was breathtaking both in personality and visual interest. john smith was realized with extreme care and made relevant to today's audience. radcliffe, well, he's one of my all time faviorite villains, so desperate, so pathetic, such a blutsering fool with power. david ogden stiers has yet to outdo himself and that voiceover. making the natives just as quick to judge portrayed what the whole film helps us understand: the human spirit. spooks, i begin to doubt your motives and doubt myself for responding to your notes as i reread them. you seem confused to me, and the argument has amounted to nothing more than a good vs. evil disney squabble. only cliff hasn't taken part in the squabbling. i regret that you continue to waste your $ on disney flicks when you know they present a product you don't enjoy. upon viewing tarzan for the 3rd time last nite, i realized with almost certainty, that it is the best that disney or anyone has ever done with animation. it challenges fantasia on the front of artistic inspration and draws virtues from every aspect of its production. the fact that you respond to no one else including myself is an insult to this board and why i think it was established. you are obsessed, and while you may enjoy it, realize that it is not an open discussion, it is an obsession. are you relevant? -
yup!!thats right--last part to my reply for "sir cliff"--i can hear all the HORRAYS!! out there...(ha!)
you mentioned that you "dont think that all of the disney films are the same,only similar threads"....i dont think that they're EXACTLY the same..of course not---only the formula is the same--they just nip it here and nip it there--change the character designs and put some snappy animation into it..those "similar threads" are WAY too similar..and the people over there at disney are far to talented to not see that...i think that the safest bet in disney animation(as far as job security) is to be a story guy--you just have to figure out ways to recycle instead of create or invent..bottom line to this part is --if you dont see the FORMULA for what it is...then you must not mind it that much and as long as the visuals are neat then SOLD!!to that i just say ----enjoy.
you said that "putting a "classic" title on POE wouldnt have helped it".....well,,fact is it obviously didnt NEED any cheap sell like that...they had enough guts and confidence in thier creative team.and well--the film made over a 100 MILLION bucks.,.,all with out singin monkeys,gargoyles,fish,frogs,or bears OR a formula in story telling....go figure huh?..
(besides.,.,i dont know if you can get any more " classic" than the Bible!....lol)
you said "POE was marketed agressively--although true no merchandising..previews for POE were a given at any movie you saw thru 98'"---well nothing wrong with that!!i dont mind agressive advertising----what else do you expect them to do?
you "thought that while daring it was less than spectacular.."
------well...over a 100.000.000 bucks worth of people disagree with you...and thats repeat buisness right there folks!!--like it or not...100% success!much to disneys chagrin.:(
---you lastly said "disney also attempted something gothic called --hunch back of notre dame"......when i learned that disney was gonna do hunchback...i was very excited..,.the content was so dark---i didnt think they would do the same old crap--well--i didnt think it was POSSIBLE TO actually .so i thought that they were moving away from the formula...i went in totaly looking forward to it..i was wrong!!!!they stuck right to that formula...in fact the thing that i came away with was that theyreally didnt know which way they wanted to go with it!!'should we dark and moody --gothic? or should we kiddie it up a bit?'...
the result was a wishy washy mish mash of the two---i couldnt believe that they were really attempting to APPEASE everyone with material that wasnt MEANT TO appease everyone!!--and what the hell was the hunchback doing playing cards (vegas like) in the gargoyles number??this is suppose to be middle ages times!!!(cal-gone take me awayyyyyyyy!!!!!!)
another problem that i had with hunchback--where i lost alot of respect for them---is that when this film had its edgy parts--they were edgy(the counslers number)--i thought it was very misleading that that film was sold as a "g" rated movie..i thought it dishonest,and a blatant attempt to
make sure you didnt lose your "kiddie cash"--very tacky and in extremelly bad taste
IRON GIANT is a being touted as a "PG" movie and its not as deserving of that rating as 'hunchy' was---but thats probably a testament to BRAD BIRD---not just a good filmaker---but an honest one with the public.
in closing--i want to say again that im not a " disney basher" --i love disney--i loved roger rabbit! i LOOOOOOOOOVED little mermaid--saw it over 30 times in the theater!!(no exageration!!)it still makes me misty at the end---i was so glad that disney animation was rejuvinated!!then beauty and the beast came out!!!i loooooooved it!!!!!and ALADDIN!!!!loooooved it!!..but it was at this point that i was saying"okay..well...lets start seeing some breaking away from the formula now...what followed was NOT A BREAK AWAY but an incestuous relationship with ones own history....i love disney and if my knowledge of them doesnt prove that then i dont know what would...i just want to see what this wonderful company with such a rich and wonderful history---the pioneers of this great art form...now with a whole new and INCREDIBLY talented young crew,i want to see them tell a different story..not just a VARIATION of the SAME STORY..i expect better..i demand better,and those who TRULEY LOVE animation should too.
"SIR CLIFF", i thank you for the dialogue,and i appreciate your input AND your perspective.take care and good luck in all that you do!
-------------------spooks -
Hi Spooks and everyone else whose become caught up in this debate. Firstly I'd like to thank everyone who's written in with similar views to myself; it is us, my friends, who are keeping this civilization afloat (barely...) ;o). Also, thanks Spooks for such a long, interesting and intelligent response, now on with the show!
I'll try not to dwell on this part of the argument too long as I think its relevance is somewhat tenuous, but, yes, Disney first and finest five films were made over a relatively short period of time. If we are looking at Walt Disney as an artist, though, I think judging him on his first five films alone ignores the vast majority of his work and how he did evolve the medium over a longer period of time through differing economic times. Yes, he continued to make bold steps after Snow White, continually pushing the medium further. You do have to realise, however, that he was defining the genre as he was going with the only precedent he had being his last film or two. Basically all of Walt's first five films were attempts to test the medium and refine it into the artform it is today. Yes, his early films have more artistic merit than most Disney animated films produced today, but you've got to see where Walt took the medium after initially testing the water. After WWII, Walt went about releasing a series of films which were basically anthologies of shorts (eg Ichabod & Mr Toad[off-topic, it's a tragedy Mr Toad's Wild Ride has gone from Walt Disney World, what were they thinking???], Fun & Fancy Free, Make Mine Music, etc) because the economic times demanded them (ie, these films were cheap). When he eventually got back to making full-length features he made Cinderella (classic fairytale poor girl becomes princess and is freed from life as slave a la Snow White), Peter Pan (boys adventure film similar to Pinocchio) and Sleeping Beauty (see Cinderella and take out the slave and add 'awoken from deathly sleep by kiss'). These were all great films (although I could live without Peter Pan...), but they for the most part adhered to what Walt found worked in the medium of animation. Basically, he knew animation was best suited to telling these kind of fantasies in a certain way so he put it to what he obviously felt was its best use (which perhaps explains why the Disney/Dali project never worked out). So, Walt the experimenter became Walt the master of animation in much the same way that Disney today continues to be the master of animation; they know what works best in animation and thus what people want and so they use it. In other words, they have come close to perfecting the medium. As for your comparisson of budgets, well, consider inflation for a minute! Sleeping Beauty (which always seemed to me to have a similar style of animation to Pocahontas), which cost $6million upon its release date in 1959, would still be one of the most expensive animated feature ever made with inflation.
I know these movies are still selling videos and movie tickets, but a large slice of that comes from their nostalgia appeal. If Pinocchio or Dumbo were being marketed today as new films virtually no children above the age of about 6 or 7 (who now sadly want action and explosions) would see them. It's also doubtfull whether adults would. People go because they're classics (there's that word again!), kids are already familiar with them before ever seeing them and their parents grew up with them. Walt himself demonstrated the needs to adapt for the times (which I ran through earlier) and Disney is simply continuing with this very wise and realistic legacy(It's kind of an animated 'real politik'!). As for your note about Esmeralda and Djali merchandise, once again they perhaps exploited the available resources, but they certainly didn't shove Esmeralda into the picture because she was marketable-she was there because she was instrumental to the plot. Once again, should they have left her out? I seriously think your problem IS with the merchandise and often not with the characters themselves. You seem in this case to have been put off by an extensive range of products based on a character necessary to the advancement of the movie rather than whether or not she needed to be there. As for Tarzan, once again, this film is aimed not only at older audience, but also at their children. While they could still tell the story of Tarzan without the pink elephant and Terk, they do serve a purpose in the movie and that purpose is to help make it accessable to the younger members of the audience. And they love them! Generally I could do without them (tho I loved Sebastian, Abu and Meeko), but I generally don't feel they lessen my enjoyment of the films to the extent that I would basically ask Disney to kick all of the children out of the cinema! They are doorways, in my view, through which the younger audience can enter often quite sophisticated and intimidating tales. Although you wouldn't say it about one of Uncle Walt's films, I'm sure if Pinocchio was released today you'd have exactly the same complaints about Figaro and Cleo! I get your point about the heart of the story sometimes getting lost in the mix, but I haven't found it too much of a problem (I think Pocahontas VERY effectively focussed on this, but I'll get to that later!) except maybe in Hercules which seemed to me to be drained of a heart. I think you're just focussing on what appeals to you the least and picking at it rather than appreciating the film in its entirety. As for smart comic relief, I get where you're coming from and I will concede that Disney's comic relief has deteriorated somewhat since Pocahontas (I'm sorry, but Meeko was great!), but it's still not at the level you're complaining about and it still appeals to those it's intended to. Kids have the humour of Terk and Tantor and adults have the 'smarter' humour from Jane IMHO. If you go back and look at a lot of Disney's earlier work, much of the humour is derived almost solely from physical sight gags. It's animation, you have to understand animation is an artform which has its groundings in appealing to a wide audience and much of your 'smart humour' would go straight over the heads of the kids and thus I think you get two distinctive brands of humour in most Disney films. Once again (and no offence intended) I think you want animated films made for YOU and not animated films made to their optimum standard. -
Hey again Spooks and everyone. Well, now you've done it! You don't dare denegrate Pocahontas around me and hope to get away with it! You stated earlier you wanted Tarzan to focus more on the heart of the story, the relationship between Tarzan and Jane. With Pocahontas you basically got a movie which focussed first and foremost on the relationship between the hero and heroine and also on human nature itself. The main reason most people don't like Pocahontas is because it is not the fact paced, comedy-packed, bright and cheery film they expect from Disney. In other words, the 'formula' you speak so much about was little evident throughout the whole production (so it's kinda interesting you think it's one of Disney's worst films ever). If you get a chance to look at the laser disc of Poca, they show comedic scenes which I actually think were hilarious that were cut out out of the film so as not to detract from the dramatic tone of certain moments. The amount of time spent by Poca and Smith just sitting and talking to each other was remarkably restrained and helped draw you (well at least me) into their world, into their relationship. The strength of character also displayed by Pocahontas I thought was stirring and the rather downbeat ending of this film is, IMHO, one of the most powerful moments in animation history. The rest of the characters basically represented two groups; the Indians and the settlers. If feel that the greatest thing about these two 'supporting characters' in the background was the fact that, rather than have PC Indians sitting back fishing then suddenly being set upon by the evil white men, Disney portrayed the Indians as being just as human as the settlers by having them also react almost soley based on the fear and ignorance of what is different (Southern Baptists take note!). They wanted to kill the settlers just as much as the settlers wanted to kill them and I applaud Disney for not just presenting the conflict as simply a black and white conflict between good and evil. You said Radcliffe was a weak villain and I would have to agree, but I don't feel he was the actual villain of the piece. The real villain, or enemy, was greed, ignorance and fear which was present in both sides. Sure Radcliffe personified these traits more than anyone, but HE wasn't the problem rather he had been overtaken by it. This message I felt was also a good one to be sending to audiences as it is true that all people have these traits buried within us which can come out if we're not careful which is why it is important to rationally explore the other side of every issue as John Smith did. How can you say the animation was 'so realistic'??? Pocahontas was the first time in decades that Disney animators actually used stylisation to give the film a look and feel all of its own. Look at the design of the characters and the backgrounds and *I'm sure* you'll noticed a very uniform style of animation hugely different from the animation found in all other Disney films and not "ultra-realistic". I heard they were inspired by the tall forests of Virginia reaching upward toward the sky and thus gave it all a very 'vertical', angular and line based design rather than the usual softer sphere-based animation Disney usually does. Even the waterfalls incorperated designs from Indian rug patterns! The artistry here was incredible; I though including the spirit of Pocahontas' mother in the wind and leaves 'guiding her on her path' was stunning and the Indian symbols incorperated in the wind when Poca and JS first hold hands is superb. I though this whole usage of the Indian spirituality, which was also the life-force of one of the main characters in the film (Grandmother Willow), represented one of the most effective uses of 'magic' in a Disney film ever. The songs were also great with Colors of The Wind being one of the greatest songs ever to come out of a movie in my opinion. I know it's greatly reminiscent of Chief Seattle's address to Congress, but that is one of the finest speeches ever written and the whole spirit of it really comes across in this song. I know a lot of people don't like it (including those wacky Southern Baptists who say it 'glorifies pagan earth-worship!'), but I think people really should give it a chance (I think it's kind of become a 'fashionable' movie to hate). As the USA Today said in its review, it's more likely to be a cult film than a massive crowd pleaser like The Lion King was. Eric H. your post was excellent and I'm glad to see someone out there shares my views on what I think is the most layered and complex and possibly greatest of the new-generation of Disney animated features. Also, it was a lot more daring a story to take on that POE and I could make the obvious counter attack that ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY MILLION bucks worth of people who disagree with you on this movie, but I wouldn't do that ;o)
Anyway, lookout for Episode Three coming soon! -
I read that Dreamworks is going to include a beanie baby camel with each copy of POE. Anyone else heard this?
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Hi again Spooks and all. Let me start with your interpretation of my words "expanding their artistic repartoi..". I'm not sure about this, but I think you've misunderstood me a little here. By 'artistic' I wasn't just refering to the way the films look, I was talking about their ability to make animated features (or to use the artform) as a whole having expanded. I'm sure few would argue that Disney films look nice but I don't think this is really what keeps audiences going back to Disney films (nor do I think people are conditioned to, but I'll leave that one alone for the moment!). If you don't have an engaging storyline people are not going to back the theatres for what is basically an art exhibition. Disney's skill is being able to weave strong storylines and memorable characters into a film which also looks superb giving it another layer of satisfaction for the audience. The first two are still the most important, tho, and, if they can't get them right, people won't plonk down their money to see it. Their theme parks also work in a similar way, but that's another discussion...I think it's a little one sided to think that people are going to Tarzan again and again simply because it's nice to look at and discount the massive amount of reviews it's got from movie reviewers who are not usually as suseptable to 'cheap thrills' as the general public can be. Hercules has great animation but the public didn't respond. Why? Because it had an uninteresting story and characters who ranged from uninteresting to just plain annoying. It still looked nice, though... As for the musical format, well, as I've said before, I like this aspect of animated films quite a lot. Animation is the last area of cinema where musicals are still credible and I think it would be a shame to start knocking the songs out especially when they help advance the story. I do feel, though, that they could cut down on them. In Mulan, for example, I thought 'Honour To Us All' could have been scrapped and 'Reflections' could have even been replaced with Mulan *silently* reflecting on her life, position, etc. I personally think this would have been much more powerful rather than spelling it out. However I thought I'll Make A Man Out Of You was a perfect way to show them going through training and A Girl Worth Fighting For was the kind of song troops may sing on the long marches and helped further familiarise the audience with Ping, etc. So, I think Disney should still produce musicals but not feel the urge to have a quota of songs in each production (see, I don't think EVERYTHING they do is perfect ;o). After saying that, I think every other animated feature since Mermaid has used songs appropriately and there probably aren't any songs from these films other than Mulan I'd snip out. I've heard Atlantis won't be a musical and I must say I'm already missing the songs! Once again, it's all part of the fantasy but it does have to work. I hate to up bring POE again, but there was a film were some songs should have been snipped. I liked the first one and When You Believe, but the rest were bland and detracted, in my opinion, from the film as a whole. That whole 'looking through heaven's eyes' thing was an attempt to do a kind of Hakuna Matata/I'll Make A Man Out Of You bridge song(with a different spirit, of course) but it didn't work at all IMHO. You stated you want "smart, clever, funny" stories from Disney (or animation in general I suppose) but once again I think you get this from Disney. I will point you to a quote from Time Magazine which stated that POE "lacked the storytelling ability that is such a part of Disney animation" (with liberties). Disney is excellent at telling stories and I think they are smart and clever and often funny (I point you back to the multilayered plots in Poca and HOND as well as some beautiful themes in Mulan) but I think you're letting the Mushus and Gargoyles distract you from the greater themes which are really designed for audiences such as yourself to appreciate. As for Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc distracting people from Disney after Walt's death until Mermaid came along; there is always room for more strong characters and good films and if Disney were producing a standard of animation which lived up to their rep then people would have gone and people back then would probably have said the same thing about Disney's audiences being 'conditioned'. Disney doesn't have a hold over the minds of the moviegoing public but a reputation and, trust me, if their films aren't of a higher standard than anyone expects from non-Disney studios they catch bad reviews and people will stop going (Hercules). Your response to my 'not the same movie' comment kind of side-stepped my discussion of the various differences between each film, but in my next post I will outline the general plots of each film for greater clarity on this point. I hope your fingers are getting plenty of rest spooks, cause I'm sure you'll have plenty to say to these FOUR loooooong posts! I look forward to it, I think we should get a kind of Siskel and Ebert sort of show going where we debate this kind of stuff...Anyway, On to Episode 4!
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Well here is the final part. Is it Episode four, five or three? Well, I made a mistake with the last post and I'm sorry :o(
Anyway, going back to the sameness of Disney's movies. Comparing plotlines will probably take too long, and I have addressed this in my pre-episode 1 post. I wasn't working under the asumption you thought they were exactly the same, so most of my points still stand. Yes, there are similar threads, but in every genre there are similar threads. I'd be grateful if you coul give me the similar threads you see so I can respond to each one individually. So far, apart from songs and comic relief, you haven't really specified what you think they are so it's difficult for me to say more than I already have. The reason POE didn't have a 'classic' tag on it is because Dreamworks have no precident for animation, not because they deemed it a 'cheap sell'. As I've said before, if they ever get the reputation for classics you can bet they'll stick the tag on there. Anyway, Disney doesn't exactly put 'Walt Disney's Classic Tarzan' on the movie poster, they put it on the videos by which time the film has usually risen or fallen according to its merits. The line of videos is called 'Walt Disney Classics'. May I also remind you that the majority of the team they have the "guts and confidence" in are from Disney anyway. Also, you go on about how Disney hasn't done a musical right since Aladdin and that they shouldn't have songs slotted in for the sake of having a song. Well what about POE? The songs in that film did not advance the storyline one bit or even really reveal anything about the characters. What made it worse was that they were all so dull and unintersting with only two songs holding any interest whatsoever. Should we overlook that, tho, seeing as they "had the balls" to try something "different"? The whole Steve Martin/Martin Short characters were a bit of a disasterous attempt at comic relief, too, with the song "Playing With The Big Boys Now" being just awful. You also picked me up on my comment that it was market aggresively replying that you had no problem with that but I think you're forgeting that I was replying to your comment that "it SUCCEEDED!!... WITHOUT the benefit of a marketing blitz!" So do you now admit there was a marketing blitz and thus its success is a bit less remarkable? You also keep quoting its box office figure (despite the fact that all of Disney's films since B&B bar Herc have beaten it) as a sign that $100million worth of people liked it. Well, you know, I payed to see it and I didn't like it as did many others. If you are using box office figures to determine a film's worth then I could quote all of Disney's box office figures for the past ten years or so, but why bother...And how do you justify that $100million is "repeat visit right there"? It is not so phenomenal a figure that it means people saw it multiple times. As for your Hunchback comments, I generally agree that they didn't know what sort of film they wanted to make. I've written a whole essay about this for school that I'll put online a little later which you may find interesting. They did take steps forward such as Clopin really being such a complex character, but on the whole the result was kinda schitzophrenic. I don't think 'the formula' is to blame either, I think adapting that text into a family film proved to difficult to pull of in an entirely convincing manner. I still did enjoy, tho, and millions did, but it was in no way Disney's greatest effort. In closing I would like to say that while at first I thought you were a typical 'Disney-basher' I've seen through your extensive knowledge of the company and thought-out responses that this is not the case. I have enjoyed this debate and am glad we didn't end up bitter enemies! Thanks for your kind wishes and, of course, I have nothing but the highest regards for your opinions and wish you all the best--adios, Sir_Cliff -
i enjoyed reading this talkback the last few days, though not really being a part of it, thanks to cliff, views similar to mine were expressed. as for you, spooks, i simply don't see where you're coming from most of the time. i wonder if you're truly going to be able to fend off cliff's talkbacks which have so effectively deflated nearly your entire argument.
poe was a waste of time for katzenberg, he and skg made a shoddy rip off of disney's films. pocahontas and the rest do have their weaknesses, but their fluid storytelling, captivating musical scores (and i'm not talking about those sometimes wretched songs), endearing characters, and brilliant penetrative animation more than justify disney's hold on the throne. disney does continue to innovate whether you can see it or not. and they stand still at the same time, i'm well aware of that. it's the cleverness and genius with which they combine the new and interesting with the familiar that distinguishes them.
i have been a poorly behaved spectator of a dispassionate debate. the subject has me intrigued and has done so for years. spooks, your move -
u guys just went through the history of disney from the creation of mickey mouse and 3 little pigs, WWII, post WWII, modern disney, indian culture,the battle of art or story, POE input into modern animation and where disney is heading in the future. i havent seen tarzan since i am not in america but have been following its development ever since disney were making it like a comedic spoof starring goofy as lord greystroke!! i also remember when we first got a look at tarzan and the absolute shock i got when he looked like some lanky druggie. i soon adapted to him but the talkback after that glimpse of him was incredible. then there was the deep canvas and the eccentric rosie kill-fest.
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so far i've agreed w/ sir cliff on everything, but i hafta say... i really liked hercules... not so much 4 the story but the chraracters i thought were great... meg was a great disney heroine..1 of the only 1s with a hidden agenda... i thought the muses brought something great 2 the story and james woods as hades was fantastic... not 2 mention the great color schemes & a blod animation style (yea... i know using the words bold animation style i sound exactly like a disney pr guy, but i liked it)... i liked it, but i am a minority... it was an out & out comedy for disney & i think it delivered... ok now that thats said & done... spooks... i respect u more then any other disney basher i've met (& i'm only using that term as a comparison)... u seem 2 be the only 1 with a well thought out opinion instead of most who just churn out DISNEY SUCKS over & over... course i still disagree with almost everything u said & i'd love 2 hear your response 2 sir cliffs recent posts (but lets try 2 keep it in 1 post please.... this 2 be continued shit gets a lil old).... ok people....
-peAce -
Nothing big. You're very articulate and your writing is entertaining...but you use "alot" a lot...isn't "a lot" the correct grammar?
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After your running down of Tarzan I was surprised to read your comment, Harry, that it is the best of the new-era Disneys. Mulan was magnificent! Hercules was hilarious!
Tarzan had several things that bothered me. Mostly, was the lack of suspense in the plot(eg. Mulan). I would have settled for romance (eg. The Little Mermaid). Without those, it at least could have been funny(eg. Hercules). I was there in a crowd of kids, and there were only two or three real outbursts of laughter. And Terk really was a little shit wasn't she? All that was left were the beautiful backgrounds and some nice songs.
The technique of having Phil sing all the songs just didn't work. It created too great of a separation of the musical interludes from the story. In the other Disney's, even when the songs are bad, they at least allow the characters to express themselves. -
Well now you know what I think. The script felt like it was thrown out in a couple of hour. It had that sort of "writes itself" feel to it. Maybe the kids should like this, but teens and above? In the words of the late Gene Siskel on Patch Adams, "I'd rather turn and cough than have to sit through this film again." Damn I miss him!
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i havent seen it or anything but the animation is very unimpressive and the story seems too similiar to ET to be original. i really do want this movie to be us inspiring and great as harry says but harry can get a bit extatic about certain movies in my opinion. i mean, i went into PoE with high expectations but came out with a mediocre feel for the movie. dont get me wrong, it was a good movie but didnt give me anything more special than the lowest expectations i have. good animation... blah blah blah... adaption of a brilliant story...yadda yadda yadda... and songs that just added padding if not made me cringe in hopelessness!!! it sounds like a disney movie and i bellieve that it wasnt a leap away from disney-like animation, it was exactly what i would expect if disney decided to tackle a bible story.
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I enjoyed Tarzan. I don't expect a whole from Disney. And in the 50 version of Tarzan brought to the screen, I've heard only one ever even tried to be faithful to the spirit of the book, that being, "Tarzan: Lord of Greystoke"...The disparity of style between the characters & the backgrounds has been a problem with all of Disney's film from "Beauty and the Beast" on and Tarzan makes a lit improvement in this area but it is still broke. And actually, I enjoy an occasionally Phil Collins tune but there was too many in this film...And I love the Jane characterization, inspite of the crazy Barbie doll figure...Mureen O'Sullivan was a Real Woman and no wasp-waisted waif!...but after this, I went Project Gutherburg and downloaded the novel, "Tarzan of the Apes". Put WordPad in full screen and hit pagedown a thousand times and immediately when I was done, I had to get "The Return of Tarzan"...Such a rich world with unexpected twist...Clayton and Tarzan are BROTHERS!...Yes, Prof. Porter was absent-minded but no dolt. And it has the racism. It had to - this a white man writing at a time when white men thought of blacks as inferior and Eric Rice Burrough's racism comes through the tale...still the tale is captivating. It ain't no children's tale, not with this brutalty and Edwardian age eroticism...Read the books.
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I agree with the previous post about Pocahontas being the film that went the farthest from the Disney formula - no talking animals, not a whole lot of action, slow-paced story telling, and for once, no happy ending. There were many things that I absolutely loved about Pocahontas, but there were things that I thought could've been a great deal better. I liked that Disney didn't automatically portray the settlers as greedy and evil and the Indians as peace-loving people. But there was still a great deal of PC-ness to the whole thing. And although I enjoyed some of the Pocahontas and John Smith's romance, a lot of it was a bit too sappy. I thought the best part of the movie was the direction and overall pace of the movie. Scenes came together very well - the beginning montage and transition to the title credits was excellent, as was the final march to battle at the end and Pocahontas' rescue of John Smith. I also enjoyed the very poignant yet uplifting ending. I really don't know why people hated this movie so much. Maybe it really is because it wasn't "Disney" enough for them.
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Other than the base premise of "boy and alien", IG is nothing like ET. I'm not a sophisticated judge of animation, but I really enjoyed it's style and overall feel. I also loved the fact that IG isn't presented as a pure kids movie - it isn't "dumbed down". It's a very satisfying and entertaining story that never becomes sappy or feels out of place (i.e. it takes place in 1957, and they didn't force in any pop-culture references ala Aladdin).
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I just took my little sister and brother to see it, and I thought it was great. Turk and Tantor were stupid, yeah, but the sibs loved them, so I guess Disney had the right idea...after all, it is a children's movie when you come down to it. Nice music. Nice animation, even if the cells didn't quite match with the backgrounds...but it was pretty damn close. Close enough to be enjoyable, anyway. And I liked Mulan, too, dammit! I'd just like to remind everyone that these are really children's movies, and be glad you can enjoy them at all, 'cause your kids/siblings COULD prefer Barney, and then where would you be?
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Well....after all the sturm and drang i've seen on reviewing Tarzan:
$100,000,000 in 2 weeks for a movie that depends heavily on kid price tickets and is in competition with several other successful summer movies.
Guess people seem to like it. -
Mostly, I won't deny that I would love to see a filmed version of the story where we actually see Tarzan teach *himself* how to read & write, instead of learning through mimicry. Even "Greystoke" dropped the ball on that one. It's in the books read 'em. Having said (or ranted) that, given the PC times we live in, the fact that this IS a Disney feature and that brings it's own baggage, this is as close as we're likely to get to the source material. After all, we can't reasonably expect a studio to make a movie just for the relatively few people in the audience who've read the books. It galls me as much as the next guy when *Hollywood* happens to a favorite book or character of mine, (case in point: all the Batman movies except for Warners animated features) but a story that David Morrell once told in Playboy(see, we DO read the articles!) really helps. while going over the film rights contract for "First Blood" with his lawyer, Mr. Morrell was surprisd at all the clauses concerning merchandising, sequels(esp. sequels as Rambo dies in the original novel), ect., etc. His lawyer then calmly explains to him," Dave, Dave, you don't understand, this is *Hollywood*, if this ever does get filmed, it'll be a wonder if it's not a musical comedy." That may not be verbatim, but it's pretty close, anyway I think the point is made.
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Hey guys! I am an animation student at CalArts and VERY excited to see IRON GIANT. I have a fan club that I started and would like to have members. I want to chat with other animation lovers so feel free to drop in! see ya there!
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/irongiant
thanks guys! -
C'mon you guys! Why do you keep complaining 'about what a great movie this could've been' or 'lousy music / stupid sidekick'.
For one thing the movie caters to the WHOLE FAMILY this means it has to ba acceptable for both 2- year olds, their big teenage cousins, their parents AND grandparents ---- sidekicks can be annoying if you expect a serious movie -- this is an animated film and not Schindler's List for heavens sake's!!! As for the music - it serves a purpose in the movie: narration, and yes I know Trashin'the camp serves apparently NO purpose. Apparently. You have to agree it is funny. And that's what the movie's about FUN. Now stop whining like babies, and go see the movie again with this in mind. I think you'll enjoy it quite a bit. -
boussidan: You're telling these guys to stop whining like babies and go see the movie again, but the problem is - most of these guys haven't even seen the friggin' movie ONCE and are still ragging on it! So I think you're just wasting your breath. But whatever you want to say about the Disney formula, it looks like it's working: Tarzan made $20 million at the box office this weekend in it's 3rd week and over $110 million total. Mulan, which was Disney's most lucrative film since Pocahontas, barely made that much money in it's entire run. I predict Tarzan will probably make over $200 million, especially with no other real "family" films out there for competition. Of course, I still can't figure out why their stock is still dropping ....
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Hey-
I just read your review of Tarzan and I agree with much of what you said with regards to the story and characters.
But, I don't agree with your view of the Deep Canvas process Disney has developed. The lush jungle was jaw dropping at first sight as it was the second time I saw it. I don't believe it was a distraction at all. As a matter of fact- I'd bet that the majority of the audience doesn't even comprehend what they're looking at (other than the fact that it looks cool) or the process involved. That's how good it is.
And, the look of animated characters on top of detailed backgrounds is something that has been going on for years. The goal of an animated cartoon is not to create moving paintings. Instead (like still cartoons), it's to make the characters stand out and let the audience focus on them- rather than the backgrounds (although we all like pretty paintings). That's part of what makes an animated cartoon a cartoon.
jt -
I must say all of the positive comments I have read on this sight concerning the Iron Giant have come as a surprise. All I can say is that Warner REALLY dropped the ball with their trailer. I have seen it five or six times, and without exception, I have found myself reading my popcorn box, it was so dull. If the movie turns out to be as good as predicted, I will bank on it being only a mild success due to this horrendous trailer.
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Seen it twice now. Both times my 2.5 yr old loved it, and kept glued to the screen the entire duration of the film. She's not done that with any other movie save those really bad kid shows that turn my stomach. But remarkably my stomach remained happily intact during the entire duration of the show. Sure there were a few smarmy Disney moments, but I thought the show was superb, the music is exciting and celebratory of life and family. There were some genuine moments of reflection and Tarzan, Jane and his mother, were by far the best characters developed by Disney animation I've seen in ages. The show moved so fast that I found myself completely engaged visually, and never bored. And I thought the violence was handled quite tastefully, while not diminishing the dramatic impact. The story wasn't about Clayton, and I wasn't disappointed that he remained a one dimensional stereotype. I thought the focus remained aptly upon the characters that mattered. Clayton was just a human equivalent to the Jaguar... and I thought that was fine. Anyhow, I enjoyed the show, and don't think it should be taboo to hate everything Disneyesque... (And I thought the Pirahnna part and the characterization of the elephants was quite fun, and not just a cheap gag.) Best regards, Raymond
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Wow... the amount of feedback is stunning. I didn't actually read it all, because I still have a life to live and I don't actually think anyone is going to get this far down, but here's my question: Why is everyone boasting the story in Tarzan? Maybe I'm missing something, but there really wasn't much of a story at all! It was all old stuff. Nothing much happened. The monkey was a friggin idiot, and anoying at that! Why no cheetah? I want cheetah! Not Rosie!
I liked Tarzan, and I agree that it would have been amazing if the first part of the movie would have been without dialogue. I didn't much care for Claiton or the father. Jane was okay...
I think that they were kinda trying to show off their new technology. A lot of shots didn't really make much sense to me, and seemed to only be thrown in to show you something cool. Frankly, I didn't like much of the 3d. The textures were beauiful, but I don't see why sooo much had to be 3d. I really didn't care for the smooth movements of the 3d, compared to the now not so smooth anymore movements of the 2d foreground. I hate to say it, but the same seems true for the Iron Giant preview. I know that Brad Bird tried to overcome that, by shooting the giant on 2's at times, but it just doesn't work for me... It doesn't look the same. But hey, maybe I'll be surprized when I see the movie. I hope so.
That's it... oh wait, one more thing: Pocahontas sucks! Worst attemt at a movie, besides Quest for camelot maybe! -
i'd suggest that too many of you lot ought to get out a bit more. Tarzan was a great film but it's a disney movie, they're not the type to invest heavily on an outside gamble for the sake of artistic integrity. So that on board how did the movie fare? Well i thought it was funny and moving, it was even frightening/ish at bits, the characters, other than obviously Tarzan and Jane, were not groundbreaking but they were there to support the main characters. The look of the whole film was amazing and the music(though i can't belive i say it myself) was great too because it fitted in and supported the plot and action. On the downside i found some of the characterisation a bit annoying but then i'm not in the age group that it's aimed at. All in all it was great and i'd recommend it to all.
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and all I can say is that it's remained more powerful for me than Iron Giant..
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Oct 01, 2002 4:57:13 PM CDT
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by ufatselloutbitch
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