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Does THE CLONE WARS suck as bad as the Prequels? Massawyrm says 'ROGER, ROGER!' Now extended with added snark!

Hola all. Massawyrm here. When I originally sat down to write this piece, I thought about adding in a rebuttal to one of the longest running arguments for Post-trilogy criticism there is. I mean I knew it was going to rear its ugly head. These guys are programmed - positively hard wired with the shit. And there’s nothing they hate more than a perceived slight to the piece of art that makes everything in their dreary little lives make sense. Hell, just a few weeks ago I was discussing on a podcast about how this was the best cinematic summer since ’82, and then we talked about other great summers. I mentioned ’99. Matrix, Iron Giant, Blair Witch, Sixth Sense, Spy Who Shagged Me. I got a lot of e-mail about 1982 and people’s other favorite years. But mixed in with all the great movie talk was this one sorry, sad, pathetic e-mail that read: “Fuck you. Phantom Menace came out in ’99 and it was only the highest grossing movie of the year asshole.” We hadn’t even mentioned Phantom Menace. And in not mentioning it, I got beaned in the head by a lonely troll swinging his lightsaber around in defense of something not even under attack. So of course you can imagine the response I got when, you know, I actually had something negative to say about a Star Wars property (for a few hours.) And then the argument showed up. Again. And again. And again. And it boils my blood. So for those folks (and those who have to suffer listening to or reading those folks) I offer the Ridley Scott style four-hour cut of my original review. Complete with an extended ending, CG Harry and No Ewok celebration song. A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away…life was good and a movie named Star Wars rocked our god damned faces off. But those days are gone, in their place an endless stream of merchandising not meant for the average consumer, but the hyper specialized fan who still to this day must own everything and anything properly branded with the Star Wars logo. The inmates run the asylum now as Lucas long ago stopped listening to his soul as an artist - his heart as a storyteller – and has since begun listening to the slavering fanboys who cry themselves to sleep at night with their Darth Vader backpacks clutched close to their chests lest they separate it from their beating hearts. He’s long since stopped working with the geniuses of old, replacing them with young, idealistic artists who revere him as some sort of living Man-God and long to carry on his legacy rather than forging their own. He’s forgotten that the most important duty you have to your fanbase is not to give them what they want – but instead to give them what they REALLY want. Do the fanboys REALLY want a bunch of scenes of characters whose destinies we already know fly through a series of dogfights so their pretty ships can go PEWPEWPEW against lifeless moronic droids so incompetent you question the tenacity of anyone that would put them into service let alone fight a war with an army of them? Do the fanboys REALLY want to spend the next 20 years of their lives arguing that the movies they love don’t, in fact, suck the hair off of a nutless monkey? Do the fanboys REALLY want an animated television series not written for 30-year-old men, but easily amused 8 year olds on Saturday morning between bites of soggy Corn Puffs? Because that’s what they’re fucking getting with The Clone Wars. This. Is. Shit-ty. Everything that was wrong with the prequels is wrong again here. There’s not much reason to dredge out all those complaints again. The Prequels aren’t actually Star Wars movies. They’re Fanfic. Bad fanfic that tries to include every element you love about Star Wars without actually using those elements the way they were intended. And while some might argue that it can’t be fanfic if the original creator is involved, I would counter that the creator in question died a long time ago. In a galaxy far, far away. As an artist Lucas is entirely bankrupt, no longer able to conjure a single, tangible, original idea. And unlike other artists in his situation, he isn’t able to properly recycle the ones he had to begin with either. No, Star Wars is an ailing, dying beached whale of a property, too large to ignore but left too long in the sun to save. And the stench is unimaginable. So leave it to television writers to sit down and come up with a classic solution to lagging ratings. Their genius booster shot in the arm of suckdom? A plucky tween girl sidekick who keeps getting herself into trouble while being delightfully precocious and calling Anakin…Darth fucking Vader himself…Skyguy. Again. And again. And again. Every time this 14-year-old little monster opens her mouth to say something “witty” my jaw went slack and my eyes rolled into the back of my skull. She’s unbearable, absolutely excruciating to watch, and yet she finds herself in almost every scene of the film. She’s around so much I half expected her to pop up in scenes with the emperor or the Hutts, just stumbling into frame while saying something “cute” like “Oops, wrong door,” or “This isn’t the shuttle bay.” Seriously, the only way she could be any more annoying is if she added the word MEESA to the beginning of every sentence and BOMBAD to the end of it. You beginning to feel me? I get that they might be working towards a Luke Skywalker type transformation, but that doesn’t replace the fact that A) her very presence makes me want to punch the person nearest me in the face repeatedly and B) she will not, ever, play a part in the mythology of the original films…or the fanfic prequel films…at all, unless Lucas goes back in to tinker with them AGAIN. So odds are she will meet a bitter untimely end sometime later in the series, like randomly slamming into an asteroid like the Han Solo clone from Shadows of the Empire. If and when that happens, I MIGHT tune in. If I don’t just youtube the scene. Again. And again. And again. Then there’s the unending problem of putting characters in peril that we already know the fates of. Look, George. Having Anakin and Count Dooku have a dual ISN’T EXCITING. We already know what happens to Dooku. He died on screen YEARS AGO. We know he doesn’t die at the hands of Skywalker. Nor does Skywalker get so much as a scratch from him. We know this already. So why devote so much time to it, unless you’re completely out of ide… Oh. The party’s over guys. The only one’s left here are the folks who haven’t realized it yet. I’m sure the Star wars fan forums are going to be aflutter with the revelations that Dooku once fought Anakin or that Anakin actually once went back to Tatooine, or that Jabba has an Uncle that - unlike other Hutt’s - sounds like a bad New Orleans piano player. But for the rest of us? This is just another episode in a long line of attempts to charge you for something you loved as a kid. I mean honestly, how much shit would we be giving Coppola if he had greenlit The Further Adventures of the Corleone’s? Because that’s what this is. Will I be watching the series? After an hour and a half of being bored to tears? Not on your life. That path leads only to fear and anger, and we all know that once you start down that path, there is no turning back. If you WANT this to be good rather than KNOWING it will be good, odds are you’re gonna be in the same boat as myself. This is no better than the Prequels. Scrub that hope out of your heart now.


Okay, now there’s something I’ve been wanting to address for quite some time now. THE ARGUMENT. I don’t even need to tell you what it is. You’ve all heard it. It is ridiculous, wrong and makes the little vein in my forehead throb every time I hear a pinched nasally voice begin to belt it out. “Now, what you don’t understand is…’ No, no, no. Let me stop you there, skippy. I do understand. At least, I understand what you’ve been Jedi mind fucked to believe. What YOU don’t understand is this: there are two types of movies meant for kids. Children’s Films and Kids Movies. Kids Movies are films that are meant ENTIRELY for children. That is they either do not take the entertainment of adults into account or completely fail to entertain them when they try. You can spot these a mile away. They contain goofy characters falling down, making biological/caka/doodoo/peepee/fart jokes, are accentuated with tons of sound effects up to and including slide whistles, and are a veritable rainbow of colors and shapes. Their very intent is to grab a hold of the miniscule attention spans of young children and keep them focused on the screen for 90 minutes straight. They are cheap, easy to make and entirely disposable. A Children’s Film on the other hand strives to entertain not just those same children, but their families that accompanied them as well. They are elegantly told stories that hit all the same kinds of notes that the story of a Kids Movie would, but often have deeper meanings that mean something completely different to adults. They are films that grow up with you and that you can carry to adulthood and love just the same, if not more, than you did when you were a child. Films like The Iron Giant, The Dark Crystal, The Harry Potter films, virtually everything by Pixar and of course my favorite movie this year (not the best, but the one I’ve watched the most and will no doubt continue to watch again and again) Kung Fu Panda. Riddle me this, Padewan. How is it that I can love a film like Kung Fu Panda, spend all summer preaching to, begging and prodding my friends to go out and see it, trying desperately to convince them that it is a CHILDREN’S FILM and not a KID’S MOVIE, but all of a sudden I lose the ability to know what is intended for kids and what isn’t? Oh that’s right. Because this is a movie in which a 14 year old girl goes on an adventure with a whiny pain in the ass to rescue a baby Hutt that vomits, burps and makes boomboom while we are assaulted by pretty colors and slide whistles. Okay, maybe not slide whistles. But you get the point. This is a KID’S MOVIE. Not a children’s film. But lets step back for a moment. Tell me something. In what universe do you live that the charred, smoldering remains of a character’s aunt and uncle constitute the makings of a kids movie? Since when does dismemberment, villains getting cut in half or even decapitations fit into what we find permissible in children’s fare? What makes more sense, that George Lucas SET OUT to make kids films from the beginning, and only learned more with time to soften them up and add shit like Ewoks and baby Hutts? Or that he made a science fiction franchise that was wildly popular with kids and when faced with criticism he simply argued that it was for kids to begin with and that the adults just didn’t get it? Then he waved his hand, muttering the phrase “You just don’t understand, these were always meant for kids,” and the fevered jedi zombie throng all chanted slowly in unison “You just don’t understand…these were always meant for kids…” Horseshit. You can try to RetCon history all you want, but the movies are there. They stand testament. And the new films are nothing like the old. But let’s face it, my review was never intended for the Star Wars fanbase. It’s why I came out swinging at the prequels like I did. To chase them off and let them call me a moron before seeking out a positive review that talks about the genius of George and makes them feel a giddy and squishy about a film they’ve already convinced themselves they will love. Regardless of quality. This review is written by a guy who wants nothing more than for Star Wars to rock again when it clearly doesn’t. And it’s not because I’ve grown up – I think I’ve proved that time and time again. It’s that Lucas either isn’t the man he was 30 years ago, or like we keep hearing time and time again, long ago bought into the hype of the hyper-extreme fanboys and stopped listening to the other artists who balanced him out. The teams that made magic happen. I want another Star Wars movie, animated or otherwise, that makes me feel the way I do when I watch Harry Potter or The Iron Giant or Kung Fu Panda or Wall-E. But I haven’t seen a new one of those in 25 years. And the kicker is, I’m not alone. Somebody call me when Lucas figures out how to make one of THOSE again. Until next time friends, smoke ‘em if ya got ‘em. Massawyrm
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Readers Talkback
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  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:16 a.m. CST

    Lucas was done creatively after Raiders (1981)

    by Dick Bahls

    I wish everyone who's still complaining about Lucas would wake up and realize he hasn't done anything that was really good since Raiders. Right after that his wife cheated on him & left him for some other dude. That may have had a great impact on him, as from that point on he was only interested in developing the technology side of films, and it shows. Clone Wars should not be seen by anyone over the age of 12, unless you're bringing your kid. Get lives, and stop complaing about the obvious. You all should have jumped down Lucas' goitered neck back in '83 when he almost practically ruined Jedi. Next time you assholes are at a convention, if you want to do something about all this, and you see that little troll Lucas sends around to push his toys, Steven Sanshit, heckle him while he's talking about taking your money for this overpriced replica crap, and tell him to go fuck himself.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:17 a.m. CST

    Not first

    by Denty420

    and won't be going to see this.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:19 a.m. CST

    cant wait for the super special directors cut

    by palewook

    of this shit. <p> ok, i'm lying.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:22 a.m. CST

    Sorry - forgot to say first.....

    by Dick Bahls I can fit in with the rest of you fanboy turds.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:22 a.m. CST

    Your "post script"

    by Thrillho77

    is brilliant. Well done.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:22 a.m. CST

    Nice argument, Massawyrm

    by TheBigDogg

    I completely agree. One thing I mentioned in your last talkbalk, before the embargo crap hit you was that one of the original taglines for the first Star Wars movie was - "It'll make you feel like a kid again". Now, if your target audience comprises of five-year olds, how would that tagline make any sense? It only seems to make sense if, shock, you might be looking to draw in the adults. The original films were great for kids but they were clearly not made just for them. And, had they been, I don't think that would be an excuse for them being shit either. Shit is shit, whether made for kids or adults.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:23 a.m. CST

    good stuff

    by Fat and Curious

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:24 a.m. CST

    Ironically, in Swedish the word "BOMBAD" is slang for

    by TheNorthlander

    "Really stupid".<br> No really, it's true. It also predates the prequels.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:24 a.m. CST

    Idea for George

    by MrMonkey

    George Lucus should make a movie about why he can't make good movies anymore. He can be the Larry David of the film world!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:24 a.m. CST

    Absolutley 100% correct there. If only they'd listen..

    by LockesLOSTkidney

    ..but they won't. <b> The whole Star Wars saga has been ruined by the money men. <b> The irony is, if Lucas went back and made another movie with the same ethos as the original trilogy, it's be cheaper to make, look more believable onscreen, AND make much, much more box office as a wider audience would repeatedly return to watch it again and again. But I have absolutely no faith in Lucas any more. He ruined Star Wars and he ruined Indy.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:26 a.m. CST

    Lucas should have never sold Pixar

    by Corterville

    There is a lot he could have learned from WALL-E. A children's movie does not have to be dumbed down to satisfy.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:26 a.m. CST

    Just seen it

    by kimbern

    Very, very dull for the same reasons as the cartoon. How many times can you watch a trooper shooting a static droid without it become boring? Or a jedi swatting away a laser blast with his lightsaber while doing a twirl. Or jumping while swatting laser blasts, while doing a twirl. And those droids are no longer funny. If I hear one more say 'Roger Roger' I swear I'll scream. And swear.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:35 a.m. CST


    By far the greatest, grandest and most tragic irony of STAR WARS is that George Lucas honestly believes that HE was Luke Skywalker. In his mind he challenged the money men of his day and won. If you re-read the ghostwritten novel of STAR WARS that came out in 1976 you'll see he conceived the Empire as being run by committee with the Emperor as a figurehead). The prologue even says that after Emperor Palpatine rose to power, he was "controlled" by the "boot-lickers he had appointed to high office." In fact, it's clear to all that porky Georgy has become Palpatine and his Empire crushes all dissent with a Death Star of lawyers. Give me JMS, Chris Carter or Ronald D Moore anyday. I'm not saying that creators should kowtow to fans - far from it - but neither should they s**t on them from a great height for the sake of an easy $$$.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:36 a.m. CST

    Massawyrm, Damn You...

    by daroru

    ... You are absolutely gol-darned RIGHT.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:42 a.m. CST

    The irony of the argument

    by afraidoffans

    I like the suggestion if you like Episode I, II and/or III the only logical explanation is you’ve somehow been brainwashed worse than a Baghdad bomber and have somehow convinced yourself they are good. It’s logical, it makes sense and it explains why the movies have made so much money. Likewise the way people who claim to hate anything made after the holy OT still watch whatever Lucas makes over and over again. ! It’s logical, it makes sense and it explains why the movies have made so much money! With people being so obviously easily manipulated and others who show their disdain by continuing to watch what they despise it’s a surprise any movie makes a loss!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:43 a.m. CST


    by alansmitheepodcast

    I was taking this review seriously until the Harry Potter comments. Now it just seems absurd.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:48 a.m. CST

    Massawyrm, you forgot...

    by 11ZOMBIES character getting impaled and another being chopped in half in TPM. Maybe you also forgot three on screen killings of Tuskens or one character being beheaded- the shadow of the head flying through the air clearly on display in the frame- and an arm being chopped off in AOTC. It also seems as if you also forgot the beheading near the beginning of ROTS- where you can see the head rolling across the floor. Or Obi-Wan dismembering Anakin. Your assertion that the imagery isn't as graphic in the prequels is flat out wrong. It is so "Lowest Common Denominator" these days to beat up Star Wars, I mean who cares? We got what we did out of the films back in the day,and to act like the new films are tonally different from the old is nostalgia-wallowing of the highest order.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:49 a.m. CST

    Kung Fu Panda is the best film this year

    by semisaj

    It is better than TDK and slightly better than Wall-E. Massawyrm do you have an opinion on the whole embargo saga?

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:52 a.m. CST

    Re: afraidoffans

    by daroru

    You know, I went and saw each and every prequel, was excited to see each and every one, and left the movie theatre knowing what I had just seen sucked... but still got excited and went back to the next one. I'm one of the people that contributed to that massive box office for those films. But I know they suck. But I loved Star Wars as a kid. And will never watch them again (maybe if they happen to be on TV). And will never buy the DVDs. And will not pay to see this new cartoon. I suspect that lots of the prequel box office was, sadly, down to people like me.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:52 a.m. CST

    The real magic for Lucas

    by Bentley_Bear

    ...has been Gary Kurtz, Philip Kaufman and Lawrence Kasdan. That's lighting in a bottle.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:56 a.m. CST

    Show me how

    by FSJGuy

    the originals were any better than the prequels story wise...please, i'll wait, look at them from your eyes now, not when you were 10 f-ing years old...Ewoks? please...worst acting ever in a movie was Mark Hammil, makes Hayden Christensen look like Ben Kingsley...I love the originals and like the prequels, difference is i saw the originals as a kid, and the prequels as an adult, same as everyone here.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:58 a.m. CST

    Spot on review

    by Bot-Bot

    All one needs to do is watch episode 4, then immediately watch this Clone Wars crapfest to see how far gone the series is. One was a real movie, with wit, compelling characters and a decent story, and by the way, had some cool spaceships. The other is a cheap saturday-morning cartoon in the worst possible sense, slapped together by committee, all bent out of shape to try to please Star Wars fans but forgetting what gave Star Wars a heart in the first place. Pixar's motto has always been "Story is King." The Star Wars motto seems to be "What would be cool here?"

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:59 a.m. CST


    by afraidoffans

    Episode I - Worldwide gross: $924,288,29, Episode II - Worldwide gross: $656,695,615, Episode III - Worldwide gross: $848,470,577 - Somehow I doubt the majority of the box office was down to people going in the hopes the next one would be good. It seems the theory of brainwashing yourselves and hating it to the point of multipl viewing is the only logical explanation!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:59 a.m. CST

    Mark Hamill's acting in 'Jedi'

    by kwisatzhaderach

    is absolutely shocking...but not as bad as Harrison Ford's. Jedi is Ford's worst ever screen performance.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10 a.m. CST


    by Hooded Justice

    AT LAST someone on this site has called the Star Wars prequels for what they are; utter garbage. They are bad fanfiction. Thank you, Massawyrm, thank you, sir.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:02 a.m. CST

    George Lucas to Gendy Tartovsky: Up Yours!

    by biggles2_22

    How dare you make an animated series that makes my live-CG-action flicks look like shit! How dare you make the fangeeks yearn for something that reminded them of the promise of Empire Strikes Back (my LEAST favorite film of the series!). I'll show you! I'll make an animated series that completely ignores the kick-assery that you put on the Cartoon Network only this time, it's gonna have the George Lucas feel on it, bitch! Snappy dialogue, tight story, and a real fucking precocious kid and I'll sell a shitload of toys while I'm doing it. I'll teach you Gendy Tartovsky! While I'm at it...Fuck You Irvin Kershner!---Actual Quotes From George Lucas

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:04 a.m. CST


    by MediaNerd

    I always preferred the term 'Family Film' over Children to differentiate better between Children and Kid films, but well said anyways Massa. <br><br> There is no reason a well made film can not be enjoyed by all ages.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:05 a.m. CST

    The prequels

    by kwisatzhaderach

    needed better writing and editing. Star Wars is brilliantly edited, and the dialogue was punched up by Huyck and Katz. Nobody punched up the dialogue on TPM and it shows. Having said that i'd rather watch the prequels than 90% of the summer schlock we get served up. There is still the odd flash of filmmaking inspiration. The last half hour of Clones is pretty amazing.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Since when are HP movies any good?

    by playahatersball

    I don't doubt that Clone Wars sucks, but c'mon Massa, the Harry Potter movies are spastic, emotionaly detached cliffs-notes versions of the books. I thought they sucked before I read the books, now that I have read them, their shallow adaptatation is just dissapointing. Also Spy who shagged me was NOT FUNNY.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:14 a.m. CST

    Re: FSJGuy

    by daroru

    I know exactly what you mean... but... When I've re-watched the originals, I can recognize the cheesy parts, yet as films they just WORK... even as a kid I knew there was something I didn't like about ROTJ (I clearly remember seeing it the first time and being unhappy with ewoks, but EMBARRASED by the Tarzan scene and cute little ewok death scene...). I also remember thinking the first 15/20 mins of TPM were very cool and then thinking... "oh...". I think being a kid plays a part in your excitement in seeing something but doesn't stop you from being able to discern shite from good, unless, as Massarwyrm talks about, you're at the level of talking about kids movies or children's films. Actually, I honestly don't know this, can anyone with kids of relevant age tell us how kids respond to the Star Wars films, new and old? Do kids still play with Star Wars toys or they all for 30something collectors?

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:14 a.m. CST


    by kwisatzhaderach

    yup, the Harry Potter movies are pretty bad, especially 1 and 2.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:14 a.m. CST

    Mass- Fucking-Wyrm! Nicely done sir!

    by irrelevntelefant

    right there with you. When my son is old enough, we will watch Star Wars, Empire and Jedi <P> No prequels, no clone wars, just the original trilogy.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:15 a.m. CST

    Lucas is a liar...

    by Frankenbastard

    I’ve said it since Jedi, Lucas loves rewriting his own history. Seems like there’s a theme going on huh?

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:15 a.m. CST

    Well fucking done.

    by lookleft

    I tolerate 20% of the prequels, but Massawyrm has elegantly summed up everything that is wrong and needs to change with this franchise.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:16 a.m. CST

    Star wars bashing

    by Pigdog

    I loved the original trilogy almost as much as I am reading the slating Clone wars it getting right now.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:16 a.m. CST

    Children's films and Kids movies

    by Ortheas

    Thank you for defining those, something I have been trying to do for years. If anyone needs more examples, see animated Pre-Pocahantas Disney vs. Post-pocahantas Disney. The didn't make another animated children's film till Meet the Jeffersons.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:18 a.m. CST

    Dave Filoni

    by pendy16

    Watch any interview with Dave Filoni, the director of this mess, and it's pretty easy to see why this happened. The guy is clueless, and I have no doubt he's just a "yes man" for Lucas. I watched the 4-minute preview online and it was painful to sit through... Lucas needs to reach out to FILMAKERS to make films, not random cartoon directors. Awful.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:19 a.m. CST

    Re: irrelevntelefant

    by 11ZOMBIES

    What if your son liked the prequel stuff? Would you deny him because of your own prejudice? Just curious...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:19 a.m. CST

    And how do the Fanboys forget the big "Fuck You" Lucas

    by irrelevntelefant

    pulled when he "re-released" the original trilogy- where Han shoots first and no digital Jabba- completely bare bones and with shitty sound just because Lucas is a big fucking crybaby.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:20 a.m. CST


    by Bot-Bot

    I saw Star Wars in 1977. I was 19 years old. It was a huge surprise to see a pulp serial-type film raised to the level of an entertaining feature film. I don't think you realize how different it was from everything released during that time. It was also the first film I'd seen a film that followed Joseph Campbell's Hero's Journey paradigm so blatantly, something I had just studied in college. Though the acting wasn't terrific, Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher gave spark to their characters, and there was a lightness and joy to the whole proceeding, even during the battle sequences. The Empire Strikes Back surprised the hell out of everyone with the way it took the subject more seriously, but it was Return of the Jedi where the cracks started to show. Cool speeder bike sequences couldn't quite make up for the fact that there were cute teddy bears running around. It felt like now was a good time to retire the series while there was a bit of dignity left. Creating prequels of any story to explain the origins - especially when the hero story already had a beginning, middle and end - is just plain misguided. Luke Skywalker's story was simple direct and linear. I actually cared about what happened to him. I did not feel a smidgen of sympathy for the young Darth Vader, except when he was the old Darth Vader, conflicted behind the mask at the return of his son. I was never a huge Star Wars fan, but it inspired me as a young man to make a career in the movie business and for that I'm grateful. I'm old enough to look back on it and see the whole saga as it runs out of energy and ideas. It's an altogether familiar scenario in Hollywood when too many people just don't know when to stop at the right time.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:21 a.m. CST

    Massa, you might find FAMILY MOVIE easier

    by Lemming

    as a term rather than 'Children's movie.' It was after all, coined along time ago so you don't have to make up your own terms ;)

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:21 a.m. CST

    Lucas raped the Nuked Fridge

    by irrelevntelefant

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:24 a.m. CST

    An answer for 11zombies

    by Pigdog

    I liked Krull when i was a kid but watched it agian as an adult and realised it was crap. This wasnt the case with Starwars. I think kids will grow up and realise they loved a modern day Krull.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:26 a.m. CST

    Yes yes yes :

    by Willips Brighton

    "...bought into the hype of the hyper-extreme fanboys and stopped listening to the other artists who balanced him out." Exactly. Like many artists who had a flash of genius, they spend forever trying to replicate it without understanding exactly WHY it was great to begin with.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:27 a.m. CST

    Let's face it...

    by Denty420

    ... As many people have said on these TB's, Lucas is done creatively. Like many of the staff at AICN I saw Star Wars at the cinema in '77 and to an 8 year old kid, it was manna from heaven. Empire is not only my best SW film, it's in my top 10 of all time. Jedi sucked for one reason - Ewoks. Like y'all I waited in line in '99 for TPM and was disappointed - I remember rolling my eyes to the heavens when Jar Jar made his entrance (in fact any time he was on screen), however I did like AOTC very much. My problem with ROTS is that the whole Anakin turning to the dark side thing was too rushed and implausible.<br> Now we have this apparent steaming turd obviously produced by Lucas to rake in even more cash. The only monkey that Lucas is feeding is his own wallet and he's proved that he'll do it at the expense of all the people who put him where he is in the first place - the cinema-going public who dig deep down and pay their hard earned cash to see his movies and buy his merchandise. Lucas has also become very arrogant of late, treating Spielberg like a bitch even though Spielberg creatively could run rings around Lucas. Lucas should retire, count his money and stop putting forward these lame-ass ideas to make himself more and more money. <br> I agree with JIMBOCOP - if this were the SW universe, Lucas would definitely be Emperor Palpatine.<br> By the way Massa, excellent review - as always!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:27 a.m. CST

    Revenge of the Sith holds up pretty well

    by Dingleberry Jones

    Of course, it does come with the infamous George Lucas patented dialogue. But that's the case with ALL 6 of the films. I can't defend the other 2, but ROTS was a damn fine Star Wars movie. Too bad this turd is being fed to us. Looking forward to downloading it next week, as I'm not throwing money at it and rewarding mediocrity.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:27 a.m. CST

    I think if the Episode IV was released now

    by afraidoffans

    For the first time ever I think most of you would pretty much hate it. We've grown up, our expectations are higher and the average internet fan loves ripping anything creative apart.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:28 a.m. CST

    As George Lucas said a minute ago...

    by kbass

    40 billion, 936 million, 345 thousand, 141 dollars...40 billion, 936 million, 345 thousand, 142 dollars...40 billion, 936 million, 345 thousand, 143 dollars.... And that's probably how much he cares about what we think.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:28 a.m. CST

    Re: Utamoh

    by daroru

    That's pretty much it... And clearly no-one expected at the time just HOW MUCH kids would be into it... hence what happened mid-80s onward... as one of those kids, I understand - it just meant so much to me and my generation...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:30 a.m. CST

    Another answer for 11ZOMBIES

    by WillowFan2001

    I didn't realize it was prejudicial to hate shit. I can tell you this much: If my child ever got into bad movies in a big way, I would prefer he get into the "good" bad movies. I would buy any kid of mine a video library full of stuff like THE GIANT CLAW and ROBOT MONSTER before I bought even one Star Wars prequel. Hearing my kid quote Dudley Manlove's "stupid minds" line all day long, as annoying as that is, would be infinitely preferable to hearing him quote George Lucas's stupid mind.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:30 a.m. CST

    Oh, and one more addendum:

    by WillowFan2001

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:30 a.m. CST

    Re: Pigdog

    by 11ZOMBIES

    That's an interesting comparison, but you I didn't watch Krull in the intervening years, and in doing so as older people we realized that it wasn't great. I can't speak for you, but I used to watch the original trilogy multiple times per year throughout most of my life. The new Star Wars films can't be a modern day Krull, because the new films will be watched throughout the new generation's lives, causing the same feeling of nostalgia. "Speed Racer" is a modern day Krull.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:30 a.m. CST

    Re: Revenge of the Sith holds up pretty well

    by daroru

    No, no; I'm afraid it doesn't...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:32 a.m. CST

    Oh, and one more addendum (that I didn't put in previously):

    by WillowFan2001

    KRULL > (The Phantom Menace + Attack of the Clones + Revenge of the Sith). It may be incredibly stupid fantasy, but it does have the advantage of not being the ruination of one of the single greatest film franchises of all time.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:35 a.m. CST


    by WillowFan2001

    I went to sleepaway camp with a girl named Angela. :::snicker:::

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:36 a.m. CST

    This just in.....

    by Pigdog

    Lucus buys rights to film new Krull trilogy, prequel trilogy and various spin offs and toys. We can only wish.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:36 a.m. CST

    Agreeing with Dick Bahls

    by papawapa

    I honestly can't stand anything Lucas has touched since Raiders. I enjoyed American Graffiti, Star Wars, Empire and Raiders and gladly revisit these films. I had trouble sitting through any of the Indy sequels even once and didn't bother with the latest. I'm ashamed I even bothered to waste my money to see the Star Wars prequels. I have mixed feelings on Jedi. As a child I found the space battle amazing to watch on screen, but as an adult it doesn't stand up as well especially with my "Yub Nub" ewok celebration replaced with Mannequin 2.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:37 a.m. CST

    Lucas is like Van Zandt in Jay and Silent Bob

    by irrelevntelefant

    just counting the money and ignoring the quality.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:37 a.m. CST


    by WillowFan2001

    How dare you wish that George Lucas RUIN Krull, too?

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:40 a.m. CST

    Sith holds up pretty well....

    by irrelevntelefant

    compared with Extra Absorbent Pampers

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:40 a.m. CST

    Re: WillowFan2001

    by 11ZOMBIES

    It is prejudicial to hate a work because of your own notions of how it should be taken, completely ignoring that another individual may have a completely different interpretation. To a young mind Star Wars- or Harry Potter- or Pokemon- are all great stimulus for the imagination. That young person will see things in these stories(even those much maligned Star Wars prequels) that will push them to find their own voices, learn the sources of all of these stories, and create new ones of their own.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Lucas' films like Benjamin Buttons

    by Bot-Bot

    His most mature film was his first - THX1138, and they just got younger and younger from then on.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:45 a.m. CST

    ....the way they were intended.....

    by redhankyspanky

    "without actually using those elements the way they were intended." <P> man, thats just fucking pathetic. Abosolutely balls out, the most pathetic statement Ive ever read here, not counting retards in talkbacks. <p> "How they were intended" or "how I wanted them to be used" there a difference to you? <p> Dude, how fucking old are you? DO you really want to go to your grave a bitter fanboy, clutching YOUR Vader backpack tightly? Writing for AICN has really gone to your head if you think anybody should make a movie to suit your personal tastes.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:46 a.m. CST

    Kung Fu Panda?

    by r3vc0

    Seriously? It was f-ing horrible!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:47 a.m. CST

    Nice one, Masssawyrm.

    by Irina Spanko

    Spot-on observations.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:48 a.m. CST

    The younglings...

    by daroru

    I really want to know from parents etc. who have kids of an appropriate age... do kids today like Star Wars? Do they get into it? Buy the toys? Or is it all "Dad's thing"? I don't know as I don't have kids, or friends with kids who are more than babies.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:52 a.m. CST

    Harry Potter

    by I am_NOTREAL

    Really is kid's stuff. At least as much as Star Wars. I read the first Potter book years after the hoopla and laughed at all the adults saying "adults can enjoy it too!" Don't give me this stuff about Voldemort and Harry's parents dying and say it proves HP is for adults and then turn around and ignore the same dark elements in SW and try to use the defense that "it's really for kids." I believe it REALLY IS FOR KIDS. PRIMARILY. The extent to which I'm still a SW fan is largely because at its best it evokes the same feelings that I had as a 6-year-old watching it unfold in the theater for the first time. I can live with them being kid's films or children's films or whatever kind of definition you want to slap on them. That doesn't excuse the dramatic inertia and the emphasis on effects over story that almost completely washed the irrepressible spirit of the originals out of the prequels. And The Clone Wars is clearly empty-calorie product that's designed only to move merchandise, not to tell a story. It's gotta tell a compelling story to be worthwhile. The original movies did. The prequels sputtered and stuttered and tripped on their own dick and finally got there, but only because the ending was already filled in. Ah, whatever. I got what I wanted from SW and I'm not alone in concluding it's time to move on. I can revisit the good stuff when I want to and still recall that first viewing at 6 and ignore the rest, like Clone Wars.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:56 a.m. CST


    by Merriman Lyon

    Finally some one at AICN had the balls to come out and pronounce the Star Wars franchise DEAD. It's been dead for twenty-five years but Lucas has made its rotting carcass dance on strings to fool us into thinking it's still alive. And amazingly some peoplle are taken in by it.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:56 a.m. CST


    by I am_NOTREAL

    My friend's 2-year old loves 'em.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:57 a.m. CST

    11ZOMBIES, one does not interpret shit...

    by WillowFan2001

    ...One flushes it. I would rather any kids of mine "found their voice" by reading really great books and watching really great movies. And no, I'm not talking about the MST3K fare I mentioned earlier. I mean musicals like Singing' in the Rain and Top Hat and The Sound of Music, comedies like It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World and Father of the Bride (either version), dramas like Casablanca and To Sir With Love and Rudy. The reason kids are so hyped on total worthless shit like Pokemon and the prequels is because that stuff is sold to them. They don't know how to tell "good cool" from "bad cool" yet, so they just grab at whatever comes along looking cool. And most parents just let the kid choose the entertainment, which means they "find their voices" by default. That won't happen to my kid. I want him/her to develop a GOOD voice. I will buy every single Harry Potter book for the little tyke. I'll drop a bundle on Lord of the Rings, and I'll read him/her The Hobbit and Watership Down, like my dad did for me. Star Trek, sure. Star Wars, fine...but ONLY THE FIRST THREE. My kid can come to the other ones once he or she is old enough to recognize them for what they are -- great steaming piles of Bantha poodoo. I'll leave the "find your own voice" crap to the people who infest the modern American schools, and feed my kid some cinematic and literary red meat, instead of letting him/her thrive on the junk food of the universe.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:58 a.m. CST

    A children's movie vs. A movie safe for children................

    by crackerfarmboy

    That's the line that Lucas seems to have blurred beginning in 1999, or heck perhaps even 1983.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:59 a.m. CST

    Merriman Lyon, thank you...

    by WillowFan2001

    Not for anything you said ('cause I didn't read your post), but for your name. Another thing I would FAR rather give my children than the shitty prequels: a box set of The Dark is Rising series. And, of course, the Chronicles of Narnia.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:04 a.m. CST

    The Droids and Ewoks cartoons were poetry in motion, then?

    by Squashua

    Come on.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:06 a.m. CST

    I agree 100% Star Wars is NOT a kids movie

    by smackfu

    or even a children's film for that matter. It's a science fiction film. People lined up to see it as a *science fiction film* and simply brought their kids because kids usually dig science fiction films. The only thing that separates Star Wars from every other made for adults sci-fi movie of it's era, is that it was REALLY FUCKING GOOD. The initial hype that exploded when Star Wars premiered, was ADULTS saying to other ADULTS 'holy fucking shit that was the most awesome movie I've ever seen'. I was about 5-6 when Star Wars premiered, and I didn't drag my parents to see it, they drug me to see it. I had no idea what it was beyond the poster looking kind of cool. As a child I didn't even realize Empire came to theatres, I saw it for the first time on video. People who weren't there at the time assume that the movie industry was the same back then as it is now, but it wasn't. This whole culture where kids always know what movies are playing and beg their parents to go see them and big movie events are crafted specifically for that audience wasn't really around in the late 70's. There was no internet, there were WAY fewer shows for kids on tv so we weren't really an advertising target yet. Basically, whenever my parents decided I to take me to a movie, was when I went to a movie. <br><br> So it's an ERROR on your part if you think, or think you recall, that back in 1977 kids were a cinema target audience. Because they weren't. The concept of the 'big summer movie' didn't even exist then, it was Star Wars that started that. <br><br> I'll give you this though, RotJ WAS Lucas's first 'kids movie'. It was the first one made that was conscious of merchandising and how much more money could be gained by targeting it at children and giving them a bigger variety of action figures to buy. The first one that considered what kids would think is cool rather than what adults would. Which is probably why the first 3rd of it is saturated with more aliens than the first 2 films combined, why Luke fights a dinosaur and why the final 3rd is saturated with teddy bears. Or maybe that's just my imagination...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:09 a.m. CST

    Re: WillowFan2001

    by 11ZOMBIES

    Wow. Thanks for the clarification. Do you ever eat at McDonald's? Burger King? Wendy's? Or is it fine food or nothing else for you all the time? There is nothing wrong with a little proverbial cheese along with your proverbial red meat to stimulate exploration of the entire culinary universe. You know, proverbially.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:09 a.m. CST

    Actually, smackfu...

    by WillowFan2001

    The first really BIG summer blockbuster was Jaws. Other than that, though, you're 100% right.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:11 a.m. CST

    11ZOMBIES, you have got to be kidding me

    by WillowFan2001

    Do I have to go back and mention the good bad movie list again?

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:14 a.m. CST

    Re: smackfu

    by daroru

    I second that. Thank you!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:15 a.m. CST

    born in 1983 a.d. saw starwars when I was about 8

    by ironic_name

    its fine for children. <P> killing optimus? wept.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:16 a.m. CST

    starwars ended in the 1980s

    by ironic_name

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:16 a.m. CST

    Re: WillowFan2001

    by 11ZOMBIES

    You did mention the list, my point is that there are many shades in between the "good" and the "bad", and to ultimately be "good" one must be exposed to and conscious of it all- regardless of the general consensus. An understanding of many things illuminates them all.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:18 a.m. CST

    the new sidekick sounds like Kate Capshaw from "Temple"

    by Circean6

    and boy did I hate "Temple of Doom" for that... Say Wyrmie, what was your take on Tartakovsky's Clone Wars?

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:23 a.m. CST


    by WillowFan2001

    I'm glad you will NEVER raise my kid.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:25 a.m. CST


    by Ko-Dan_Mothership

    You framed it perfectly Massawyrm, and now I finally have the words to explain that nagging feeling I've had since '99. I can also feel even MORE justified shakig my head at these ridiculous apologetic fanboys who continue to crawl out of the woodwork.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:26 a.m. CST

    Extended Ending...

    by goodguy


  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:28 a.m. CST

    Re: WillowFan2001

    by 11ZOMBIES

    The feeling is mutual. Truly an amazing conversation, thanks a lot!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:28 a.m. CST

    Star Wars reboot

    by Jay Retread

    Do it. Someone.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Better than Temple of DOOM

    by whooooooop

    A New Hope is MORE OR LESS a kids movie.. and it spoke to us...but still I wouldn't put it on the same level as Ratatouille or Pixar...those are "childrens" films and yes have a lot more to say....i LOVED the CLONE was better than the Temple of Doom...cmon guys the reason the origianl OT rocked everyones faces off had nothing to do quality film making...Tartakovsky's Clone Wars are VERY flawed as a lot of way...the music is MIDI gargbage...but i LOVED all of it...STAR WARS has NEVER been OSCAR QUALITY stuff..but man is it AWESOME...and horrible but AWESOME..and better than most Summer Blockbuster Crap....

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:31 a.m. CST


    by I am_NOTREAL

    There have been dark themes in children's lit forever. Uh, Brothers Fucking Grimm, anyone? Let's talk about children lost in forests and witches shoved into overs. Just another reason why the whole for kids or not for kids talk doesn't wash. Doesn't matter if they're kids' films that adults can enjoy or adult films that can work for kids, what matters is the storytelling, and the storytelling in the prequels is clumsy hackwork by a guy who cares more about making it look pretty. What he got right in the prequels (and there is stuff that he got right) is only because of the strength of the material. What he got wrong is because of his own storytelling ineptitude and no checks and balances on his ego.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:33 a.m. CST

    Extended Ending

    by dukrous

    My father saw Star Wars when he was 26 and he thought it kicked ass. Star Wars was a great movie,'s family entertainment, crossing all age boundaries. These are retard kid movies. I've checked out years ago, but then again I always preferred Trek's humanism to Wars's storytelling.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Haven't seen it. Might see it.

    by GalacticWar

    I still like Star Wars a great deal, although I am a modern Star Wars fan who never saw the original's in their first run (i wasn't even born). I have never totally "hated" anything about the Star Wars at all. Sure there are parts that aren't great, nothing is perfect after all, even in the original, but I reserve my hate for things that actually mean something other than movies. I get excited about movies and am occassionally disappointed, but its always best not to go in with high expectations, then you'll enjoy it more. Fanboys really ought to take a step back and seriously consider what the hell they are really angry about. It's just a movie franchise after all.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:40 a.m. CST

    Re: I am_NOTREAL

    by daroru

    Oh yes... Exactly!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:47 a.m. CST

    How did the Jedi actually get the reputation

    by Snookeroo

    of being bad-asses, anyways? All they ever do is lie, get their ass kicked, die, or run away.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:48 a.m. CST

    Massawyrm, well said.

    by samsquanch

    In '99 my friend's kid was 8 years old. We had indoctrinated him early with the OT, so he was excited to see TPM. Remember how fucking great that trailer was? We watched that thing online a hundred times. My buddy and I were as excited as the 8 year old. <p> Then, we went to see it. Midnight showing. Kid got to stay up late. The feeling of disappointment 2 hours later was... heartbreaking. He loved Obi Wan, he loved Darth Maul, he loved the space battles and R2 and the Pod Race, but he absolutely hated Jar Jar. To him, Jar Jar was 'Stupid", with a capital 'S'. He didn't care for any of the 'trade dispute' crap. he wondered aloud why the droids had screws for eyes, and why they would need to vocally communicate with eachother, and, worst of all, the trade federation aliens were and still are referred to in my friend's house as the 'Chinese aliens.' <p> So, my question to George Lucas is- if these movies are for kids, what age group are you thinking? 2-5? Because if at 8 years old we're too old for your films, your demographic is pretty fucking limited.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:50 a.m. CST

    its semantics i realize but i still disagree.

    by FleshMachine

    dark crystal and iron giant are not "childrens movies". one is a cartoon adventure story the other a fantasy. neither were directed specifically at children. while i understand what you are saying i dont think its a very good thesis. i would say its more accurate to say there are "movies"..and then there are "kids movies". imo.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:51 a.m. CST


    by whooooooop

    Ha Exactly! it wasn't perfect...but i Saw it last night, it was a Blast...Totally worth seeing... just dont go in expecting a life changing experiece...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:52 a.m. CST

    No way the movie could be more boring than this review

    by Defiant

    I can't stand reviews that are 75% ranting about BS and 25% review of the actual film.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:58 a.m. CST


    by FleshMachine

    i for one will absolutely prevent my kid from seeing the prequels...they like eating toothpaste too..should i let them? job #4ish of parent is to protect them from shitty music and shitty films.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, noon CST

    Well said...

    by Padawanmage

    I think when Jar-Jar came on screen in TPM did I realize the trilogy was going downhill from there. If anything, the closest thing to a good SW anything was the game 'Knights of the Old Republic' and that was because it was written by Bioware and not Lucasarts.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, noon CST


    by whooooooop

    yeah i do have to agree about most of what you said about star wars 77....the reason it got so big was becasue it was REALLY GOOD...And all of marketing and the world has changed so much since then....but its hard to know i made adults feel like kids to both WAS and WASN"T a kids brought back the sense of wonder...i mean in SOME way i feel like POLTERGEIST is a kids movie..although it wasn't like a kids movie..but That what we were all LOVING and freaked out over as kids...Same way with RAIDERS. You could be right about SW partly being about selling toys..But i still love it...i think thats pretty awsome...i had such FUN time last night... KUNG FU PANDA was a better movie..with way more of a point to make..better acting and writing..but i loved this just as much... And yeah some of the animation looked stiff...but MAN it made me have that Star Wars feeling..not the Prequil Feeling the OT i haven't had for years...and i'm not sure why...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:07 p.m. CST


    by whooooooop

    I think you got it...the OT had so many of those old corny moments too...we have just seen them all so many times..and since we were kids...that we can't even see them for what they are anymore...the OT just gets a freecard..because we all loved it so much at the time...and these children today will be giving a freecard to the CLONE WARS with all its faults..i mean MY GOD...the kids were SCREAMING last night...and tons of...WHOOOAAASS...i mean it was such a blast to hear how much fun the kids were could tell it really was something pretty cool for them....

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:14 p.m. CST

    I liked ROTS...

    by Banzai Rootskibango

    ...But I didnt like this attempt to have Anakin turn to the dark side and yet, still try to keep the audience sypmathetic towards him. He's going to be the bad guy. MAKE HIM THE BAD GUY! Don't make him some "accidentally killed my wife wimp."

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:16 p.m. CST

    Lucas "Dutch Oven'd" my childhood

    by irrelevntelefant

    too many CW TB's to post in, dammit!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:18 p.m. CST

    It seems crazy to me

    by I_am_not_Henry_Silva

    The prequels stank but that cartoon show was more fun than the three of them together. Making a feature version of THAT might seem like a good idea but to change creative personnel and go to cruddy computer animation instead seems like madness. It would have been a better idea to just screen that cartoon show on the big screen all in a row. Because that big piledriver ship was sweet. And that hammerhead sonic scream thing was awesome.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:22 p.m. CST

    DAMMIT! The Clone Wars shorts were sooo good!

    by SlickyVonBoner

    Why, did you have to fuck with that, Lucas? Why couldn't you just do more of the same? Get your head out of your ass!!! Thanks, wyrm. I will NOT pay money to see this in the theater... if I do happen to catch it on whatever channel its playing on, then so be it.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:26 p.m. CST

    Best Thing I've EVER Read On This Site

    by Brody77

    Seriously. Well done mate.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:28 p.m. CST

    Halle-frikkin'-lujah! 100% right, Massawyrm!

    by Wldmk

    Just got home dead tired, so any lengthy reply will have to wait 'till I get some sleep after ~40 hours, but all in all, couldn't agree more with your article in general & the attitude towards the SW franchise's condition and difference between kid movies vs. children films in particular. Well written and a spot-on excellent job, sir, and kudos for not letting up to the rabid fanboys.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:32 p.m. CST

    I just have no interest in this

    by skydemon

    SW has been dead a long long time in my opinion.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:39 p.m. CST

    I hope Lucas gets ass raped by a smurf on viagra.

    by wowsucks

    Space balls, now thats a movie! And for the subject not a clue but Fuck Lucas anyways.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:53 p.m. CST

    THANKS !!!!

    by gufte82

    Massawyrm...I couldn't have said it any better !!!!!! But I have to add that you made one crucial mistake : You kinda hoped for a good Star Wars film before you went to see "Clone Wars". After the prequels and Indy 4 you really should have known better. :) No way I give my money to Lucas in cinemas....

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:55 p.m. CST

    Why all the Return of the Jedi hate?

    by OBSD

    I never understood that. Okay, the Ewoks might be a little too cutesy now (although I thought they were great in 1983, when I was 11) but you're willing to flush the whole movie down for a few Ewoks? Really? What about the rescue of Han Solo? "Then my father truly is dead"? The reveal that Lando was a gaurd in disguise the whole time and you didn't see it? The Rancor scene? "How we doin?" "Same as always." "That bad, huh?" None of that means anyrthing? Nothing? Is it just "JEDI SUCK! EWOKS! Arrrrgh!" And their face turns red and steam comes out of their ears? Really? I just don't get it.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 12:56 p.m. CST

    The Jabba scene in Star Wars is proof that Lucas

    by jim

    isn't that strong a filmmaker. He says he always wanted to include it but was unhappy that he couldn't portray Jabba the way he imagined him because the limited technology of the day. <p>How can anyone watch that scene and think it shouldn't have been cut? It slows the pace of the movie and has, at times, word for word, the same dialogue as the scene between Han & Greedo just moments before. The scene offers nothing new. IT IS A REDUNDANT SCENE! Any decent filmmaker should be able to see that and make the decision, for the betterment of the picture, to cut it. Yet Lucas, once technology allowed his vision of Jabba to be realized, puts this scene back into the movie. I love seeing unused footage but that's what "Deleted Scenes" on the dvd is for.<p>I shudder to think of the day when Spielberg catches the Lucas Fever and decides to "fix" the problem he had on Jaws. With today's technology he can put the shark back in to all those scenes in the first half of the film that he originally had intended it to be in.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:06 p.m. CST

    Big Jim, Spielberg already has Lucas-Fever

    by Merriman Lyon

    He went and 'fixed' ET by replacing guns with walkie-talkies and adding in a poor-quality CGI extra-terrestrial. Because the movie we LOVED and made us cry as kids NEEDED to be fixed.<p>Oh and he also directed a little number called Indiana Jones and the somethingsomething Crystal Skull. He's fallen hook, line and sinker to the disease.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:12 p.m. CST


    by BeerEngineer

    You put into words everything I've been bottling up since Episode I came out. Thank you.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:14 p.m. CST

    ROTS wasn't aimed at kids, so there goes your bullshit argument

    by darthflagg

    It was the most adult episode of the series next to Empire. And for those of you who complain about there not being enough motivation for Anakin to turn to the dark side, I have two words for you. Two Face. Nuff said. Now can we get Massawyrm to stop writing about Star Wars ever again too, please?

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:16 p.m. CST

    nice review Massa

    by quadrupletree

    Although I thought your rebuttal at the end was going to be for the argument "it made the most money... blah blah" I've never been hit with the "it's meant for kids" argument, but your response is right on. I really wish they would make a star wars movie like the ones I remember from my childhood. That's probably never going to happen though.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:18 p.m. CST

    CGI Jabba, Greedo shooting first...

    by Merriman Lyon

    Big Jim, you're dead on about that Jabba scene. It just repeats dialogue that's already been spoken and isn't even needed in the first place. And to make matters worse, the CGI Jabba just doesn't work. Even after they've gone back and tried to fix it AGAIN. It looks out of place and completely phony. Not to mention the "Poochy returned to his home planet" style technique they used to lift Harrison Ford over Jabba's tail....a complete waste of time.<p>It's as if Lucas is hell-bent on not only flushing his franchise down the toilet in his prequels - but also wants to go back and deface the stuff that he got right in the first place: like create a terrific scene that shows that Han Solo has got what it takes to survive in a dog-eat-dog universe.....and then undermine Han's character by making Greedo shoot first. So now Han waits, like a bumbling idiot, to find out if Freedo will blast his head off or miss - and THEN react to the threat..........???????<p>Not to mention, that Lucas accomplishes this insane revision with a South Park-style cut-and-paste animation technique to make Han dodge the shot.....?????? The man has clearly gone mad.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:22 p.m. CST

    "Kid's" vs. "Family"

    by Teddy Artery

    That would have been a more accurate description of the difference between brain-dead ADD audience fare and something that appeals to kids and parents... Now, this little gem, "Seriously, the only way she could be any more annoying is if she added the word MEESA to the beginning of every sentence and BOMBAD to the end of it.".... hit it right out of the ballpark. Jeez, George. When in the hell are you ever gonna give it all up for your life of experimental filmmaking? I would personally support that.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:24 p.m. CST

    Defending Mark Hamill's acting

    by Frietag

    I couldn't disagree more with all the shots at Mark Hamill's performance as Luke Skywalker. Clearly he was perfectly cast; the impact on audiences (quite apart from the gross) of STAR WARS is all the proof you need, because he was the main character of one of the most influential movies in history. The actor playing the protagonist does matter; I do not think STAR WARS would have had the same impact if the character had been ruined by a terrible performance. Hamill happened to have the right voice for the character; IMO it was the key to his performance. For whatever reason, Hamill has the ability to act "whiny" without making audiences hate him. This is an unusual ability; most directors seem to take it for granted, but it's actually very rare, even among otherwise excellent actors. Like Hayden Christensen, for instance. (As support for my claim that Hamill had a great voice: isn't it it interesting that he eventually gave up acting per se and excelled in voice work? He did an awesome job as the Joker in BATMAN: TAS.) (Funny how important voices are. Christopher Nolan said in an interview that Heath Ledger worked for weeks with two voice coaches to make sure he got the Joker's voice right in DARK KNIGHT. And he obviously nailed it; it was a great performance, but it was anchored by an absolutely terrific vocal. And Ledger wasn't even available to rerecord any of the dialogue, so it's lucky that Nolan came up doing low-budget films so he places great importance on getting the dialogue recorded on set. I mean, imagine if they'd had to re-dub all of Ledger's dialogue -- that would've sucked.)

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:30 p.m. CST


    by OBSD

    If you've never heard the "It's for kids", I envy you. I never heard that argument either until Lucas used it to defend the Prequels. The next time I was on a AICN talkback that had to do with Star Wars, it spread like the plague. It's a stupid argument when you realize that grown adults were going to see New Hope 7,8,9, or even 10 times or more in the theaters. It's a bullshit argument that doesn't hold water if you were actually alive and remember what the worldwide reaction was like during the original trilogy.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:30 p.m. CST

    Is it bad to say I kinda enjoyed it?

    by MrBlonde92

    Don't get me wrong,I LOVE the original trilogy,and I did like the prequels,but this is a kid's film,and I though it was harmless.MInd you,I did HATE that teen sidekick and Jabba's GAY_ASS Uncle!!!!!!!!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:32 p.m. CST


    by MrBlonde92

    Blue Harvest and Robot Chicken were a lot better than this film!!!!!!!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:33 p.m. CST


    by kwisatzhaderach

    Too bad Nolan didn't get Bale to work with a voice coach.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:35 p.m. CST

    "Family" vs "Children"

    by Massawyrm 1

    I considered using this long ago when I first made the argument and again when I sat down to finally put it into print. Unfortunately, as perfectly as the word describes what it is, it evokes in most minds the meaning "Family friendly." A "Family Film" is something you get from hallmark or a remake of an enduring classic. But the intent of these films is initially children, so I felt the term apt. Use whichever word you feel appropriate when discussing it with others.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:40 p.m. CST

    Meanwhile, in an alternate universe...

    by L.H.Puttgrass <p> Kinda freaky...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:42 p.m. CST

    Lucas locked my childhood in a hot car

    by irrelevntelefant

    after farting in it...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:49 p.m. CST

    Great Write Up , Massa

    by LaserPants

    And the sad thing is it could have been good. I mean those Genndy Tartatovsky cartoons were fuckin' great! Why didn't they just re-hire him? <br><br>I have this weird theory that Lucas didn't want Tartatovsky to make a whole new show because Lucas knows that Tartatovsky is more talented then he is, MUCH more talented. Lucas was threatened by Tartatovsky's genius and therefore cast him out and hired some yes-men hacks to make some more frosted colored sugar bombs for the chilluns. Great. Good work Lucas you jackass.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 1:57 p.m. CST

    Move on...

    by batfunk

    Star Wars I-VI are all mediocre bantha fodder, so just get over it. Stop whining about a bunch of films that condemned us to more mediocrity in the film industry than we could ever imagine. George was never a visionary film maker in the first place and only a fool would go looking for adult themes in one of these films. When I come to think of it, none of the SW films have ever made me feel any serious emotions – the only sign of a great film in my opinion.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 2:01 p.m. CST

    SW: Live Action Series

    by Mutley26

    Will Need: Pathos, nuance, wry wit, depth, darkness and charm. Anything less & the unfortunate truth is G.L will have ultimately failed in telling his story. The live action show will be his last chance saloon, and coming so soon after the release of Star Trek XI, for the first time his franchise stands to be compared both directly and unfavourably.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 2:01 p.m. CST

    You're not a real SW fan unless...

    by Mr. Monkey hated every single SW after A New Hope and you even hate the fact that they call it "A New Hope" but still you have the toys, T shirts, movies and comics.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 2:02 p.m. CST


    by Dr. Spaceman

    I saw an interview where he said having kids (even adopted ones) changed his life, and he got all worried about "protecting" them. That's why Greedo shot first, and why laser blasts striking imperials on the Death Star were edited.<p> <p> I think Star Wars and Empire were real movies, Return + the Special Editions was the beginning of the end.<p> <p> I can get away with a musical number like the cantina scene, but the Special Edition musical stuff was garbage.<p> <p> In making the kids films, Mr. Lucas & co. drained the dignity that existed in the first few films. Not to mention the drama, pacing, acting, lighting, and special effects. CGI has become a crutch.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 2:12 p.m. CST

    Dr. Spaceman

    by Mutley26

    Agreed. Lucas needs young, non-child-possessing hot-head writers/producers to bring the grit back.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 2:12 p.m. CST

    You are right, Merriman Lyon.

    by jim

    Let me rephrase that: "I shudder to think of the day when Spielberg's Lucas Fever so utterly consumes him to the degree he decides to "fix" the problem he had on Jaws."<p>The Greedo scene and Jabba scene were both exposition to let us know something about who Han Solo is. Trouble is the Jabba scene just repeats what we have just learned. We do see Boba Fett at the end of the scene but to me that's stupid too as he has nothing to do with the rest of the movie. It's not forshadowing if there's no payoff.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Big Jim

    by Brody77

    If he ever fucks with Jaws I'll personally hunt him down and...umm - ok, I doubt I'd get past security, so I'd prob just rant & rave here! Point is, he fucking better not mess with my film

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 2:39 p.m. CST

    Vitriol like this should've been present back in '97

    by The Decider

    when the original trilogy came out and had been fucked up by that retarded ape-chicken.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 3:06 p.m. CST

    i just dont get the hate....

    by GavinVanDraven

    i am 32 years old. i watched star wars for the first time when i was 5 (it was on HBO), then i went to see Jedi in the theater with my parents the week it opened. i first saw Empire on laser disc at my uncles house, sometime after that. since that time, i have watched each of these movies over 50 times and i now watch them at least once a year, with the prequels. i do not see why you people think that the OT is so much better than the PT. i happen to like them all. they all have their negative points, with the exception of Empire (which is as close to perfect as can be) and they all have their good points. the fact is, the Prequels make the Originals BETTER. the paralleling story arcs are my favorite aspect of the PT. you see just how close Luke comes to becoming like his father (and yes, all because of a vision/dream. "i have to help them, i cant let go of my friends/wife", this is central to both character's downfalls) those who feel Vader's turn was rushed forget that Luke nearly turned for the same reasons. the grand scheme of the PT puts palpatine's line "everything that has transpired has done so by my design." more into perspective. he controls every side of the war, all with the intent of becoming emperor, and also to thin out the ranks of the jedi. truly he is revealed as the most manipulative character in movie history....

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 3:06 p.m. CST

    "retarded ape-chicken"

    by L.H.Puttgrass

    Why is that sooo funny! <p> I don't know why, but I can't stop smilin'. <p> Jar Jar Binks = retarded ape-chicken. <p> ape-chicken. Funny.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 3:10 p.m. CST

    The alternate TB

    by L.H.Puttgrass <p> It's bending the space-time continuum.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 3:16 p.m. CST

    something for you conspiracy theorists...

    by GavinVanDraven

    i wouldnt be suprised if Bush uses palpatine's tactics to declair himself king of America... 911 was equivelent of the "attack" on Naboo (some silly people say we attacked ourselves... just to have a reason to fight a war) the war in Iraq is a distraction thats moving the troops out of position here to fight a phantom enemy over there, and we cant win because there is no enemy. (how can you stop terrorist? you cant, because you're in Iraq dumbass, they didnt attack us!) if someone takes out Obama and McCain before the election and George grants himself "emergency powers".... awww fuck. i am totally talking out of my ass here.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 4:06 p.m. CST

    FANFIC! It finally makes sense, thank you!

    by kirttrik

    I can now fully understand the miserablality of the prequels, it's because they are fanfics. And I now can also be completely justified in only watching the fan edits of these films, because they ARE fan films. This article is the most beneficial review I've read on this site. Thank you Massawyrm. This is obviously a nuke the fidge/jumping the shark/Young Indiana Jones except ten X's worse fuckfest.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 4:14 p.m. CST

    There's a problem here

    by Chumkid

    and it lies within the viewer. What I'm seeing is a bunch of adults complaining about a movie franchise that is and always has been for children. "Do the fanboys REALLY want an animated television series not written for 30-year-old men, but easily amused 8 year olds on Saturday morning between bites of soggy Corn Puffs?" The fact of the matter is, this has ALWAYS been the case. You've all just been blinded my nostalgia up until this point.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 4:28 p.m. CST

    well said

    by jason baum

    the burning of luke's aunt/uncle is the perfect example to bring up. lucas is a prick, and i hope there is a mutiny at lucasfilm very soon.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 4:42 p.m. CST

    I'll tell you what:

    by Sith Witch

    I had a blast watching it. Pity so many didn't get to experience the sheer joy I did.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 4:49 p.m. CST


    by Merriman Lyon

    I think Massawyrm - like many before him, like many after him and like many on this TB are doing now - has answered your objection, has anihilated it and has dumped it in a shallow grave. The fact that you trot out your sad, long-discredited prequel apology shows that you haven't bothered to read Massawyrm's post before commenting on it. Or else you have decided to deliberately misunderstand him for the sake of a little trolling. Either way, you are irrelevant, will be ignored -and your breed are fast dying out.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 5:11 p.m. CST

    If you don't like "Sith" then you don't like "Star Wars"

    by TallBoy66

    It's a Star Wars movie, through and through. Top to bottom. The screaming "no" is a part of every damn star wars movie, same with all the diaologue. and if you say you don't like Sith, by bitching about a single line, then you never did and never do like Star Wars and you're a poseur if you think that Sith isn't a Star Wars movie. Way to be a part of the mindless PT bashing crowd. Now be a good droning cow and say "Mooo".

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 5:21 p.m. CST

    DarthFlagg, so your point is

    by samsquanch

    that since there's another movie out there that also portrays a good-guy transforming into a bad-guy, and that in that film the transformation is a little lean on the believability side, that...what, this cancels out the fact that Anakin's transformation into a bad guy was badly rendered? I don't follow. <p> You're pointing to two different movies that have a similar plot point, but that's where the similarities end. How does your logic work? Can't more than one movie portray a plot point like this badly? Is there some kind of badly-played-plot-point quantum singularity in the universe? Is this a unifying physical principle to the cosmos? Your post made absolutely no sense. You don't win an argument by pointing out that your opponent has been wrong about something completely unrelated in the past, that's just silly. <p> Anakin's transformation was badly done. It made no sense, was acted badly, was rammed through almost as an afterthought, and had no pathos, no meaning. It was superimposed on an already flimsy story, made all the more incomprehensible by this crap plot point. <p> You can't deny this with some bizarre non-sequitur. just accept it.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 5:47 p.m. CST


    by spud mcspud

    Oh, so I'm not a TRUE Star Wars fan because when I saw SITH and had to endure Hayden turning the badass villain that cracks a guy's windpipe with his fucking mind in the first moments of the original STAR WARS into a whinging bitch with a fucking girl's voice, contractually obliging James Earl Jones into making the first words of the new Vader into an emo shriek that had NO PATHOS WHATSOEVER in it - that because when I saw that last half-hour of SITH I saw it for what it is - UNFORGIVABLE SHIT OF HIGHEST FUCKING ORDER - I must not be a "True" fan.<P> So, as a true fan, you must think it's fine for the PT to have none of the charm, inventiveness, creativity, craft, acting ability, genuine care and attention or general greatness of the OT IN ANY FUCKING WAY.<P> Fine. You're a true fan and I'm not. I'm just a real movie fan and you're a mindless fucking moron. There it is.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 5:52 p.m. CST

    Sith Witch

    by spud mcspud

    I would probably experience real joy, were it not for the fact that I know what will happen to every important character in the movie, and donn't give a flying fuck about any of the badly written, badly motivated, pointlessly included new characters like fucking Rotta the Huttlet (who could only be saved in you got Johnny Vegas to voice him).<P> What's the point? Do you really think this is the way to go for a franchise? This is the same stupid Lucas-logic that had Mac betray Indy in the first ten minutes of INDY IV, then genuinely expected us all to be flabbergasted when Mac does the same thing again later on in the movie - when in actual fact, those of us with brains were just looking at the screen thinking, "I can't believe Indy is so fucking dumb he'd believe that double crossing bastard twice."<P> Then I thought how much fun it'd be to bring in Sir Ben Kingsley as Don from SEXY BEAST into the climax of INDY IV - give Ray Winstone something to REALLY worry about...

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 5:58 p.m. CST

    Genndy is head of the animation division of

    by Dingbatty

    The Orphanage, a rival company to ILM (made up of former ILM and Lucasfilm Ltd employees), hence the lack of his involvement. Lucas was dumb not to pony up the cash to keep Genndy & his talented cohorts.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 6:10 p.m. CST

    You know what REALLY pisses me off about the prequels and this C

    by Royston Lodge

    The fact that EVERY animated and/or live action Star Wars property made by third-parties up until the prequels, regardless of how cheaply they were made, are superior to what Lucas himself threw together. Yes, I would much rather watch The Great Ewok Adventure than The Phantom Menace. I own the old Droids and Ewoks cartoons on both VHS AND DVD, and I watch the Droids one fairly regularly. Even the Star Wars Holiday Special is superior because at least it offers goofy camp value and that cool animated short featuring the first appearance of Boba Fett! Just stop to contemplate how wrong that is - George Lucas went and put on the big screen FOUR Star Wars movies that are WORSE than the fucking Star Wars Holiday Special!!!! HOW WRONG IS THAT?!?!?!?!

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 6:15 p.m. CST

    Right on Massawyrm!

    by JAGUART

    Thank for the heads up on Kung Fu Panda. Per your suggestion I am going to check it out.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 6:16 p.m. CST

    Studio Ghibli and Pixar...


    If you want to do a "Children's film" right... these are your guides. Now, I read ALIEN by Alan Dean Foster when I was 7 years old, because I wasnt allowed to see the film... so my idea of what a "childrens film" is a bit skewed.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 6:25 p.m. CST

    Am the only one...

    by Magma Suit

    who liked Anakin better in this than in II-III?

  • 1) Filmed "theading the Needle" Scene between Star Wars and Empire (wishing it was filmed) 2)Added all excised scenes that were in the novelization and comic adaption 3) Jabba scene should have had dialouge dubbed as the radio show was... minimal CGI effects to animate mouths. 4) Film was cleaned up and all special effect scenes cleaned up or CGI animation for any special effect scenes where the actors did not appear. would have been the perfect Special Edition version.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 8:15 p.m. CST


    by jackalcack

    You're talking UTTER SHIT mate. Awesome piece Massawyrm, an absolutely brutal and deserved attack on the complete embarrassment that is Star Wars and George Lucas. I'd just like to echo what some peeps have said already, the truest and best thing I've ever read on this site.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 8:58 p.m. CST

    Mass...Haven't seen it yet, but I like what you're saying

    by Alice Cooper Stalker

    How could Lucas get six films so right...Ep 4-6 and Indy 1-3...and then get these prequels and Indy IV so wrong? I guess with Howard The Duck under his belt we all knew he had it in him. My 3 yearold is a huge fan. We will be in the theater at a matinee tomorrow. Let me apologize in advance to the people in the rows around me. I have vivid memories of seeing Emprie Strikes Back in the theater for the first time. My grandfather, who has since passed, took me to the theater for one of the greatest cinematic experience of my life. I was hoping for the same kind of long lasting orgasmic cinematic experience to be etched in my kid's brain since he's gaga for Star Wars right now. Guess its not gonna happen tomorrow. Damn!

  • That one that didn't have the 'New Hope' attached to it, and the one that had all the Biggs scenes in the beginning. I know, it was clunky and badly edited (rushed by Lucas) but it was also a deeper story. Ah well.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:28 p.m. CST

    I'm feeling you Massawyrm, but...

    by mrdinky

    On what fucking bizzaro world, damn dirty apes, planet was HARRY POTTER a great - or anything about barely passable - movie? there's been exactly one decent HP movie. It was the third. The first two were complete rubbish. The last one was more "mature" than the others, but it wasn't nearly on the level of the third. And yo, the third was NOT CITIZEN fuckin' KANE. <p> aight. sorry about that. I am a sw fanboy, but I'm not daft. it's a guilty pleasure over the past 2 decades. but you can't be bashing obvious kiddy shite and then sing the praises of a one-dimensional, young adult fiction flick. you might as well be singing the praises of HANANAH MON-HILLARY PIKACHU. ;-)

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:33 p.m. CST

    Hold it. You liked Blair Witch..!?

    by Aeghast

    I'm not THAT alone, after all

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 9:47 p.m. CST

    Another killer review

    by Aeghast

    Nice read.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:08 p.m. CST

    my favorite "hater" line...

    by Bouncy X

    and "hater" does belong in quotation marks because its as stupid a term as "apologist" but gotta make sure the kiddies understand. but the line is if you enjoy the prequels, you have no taste or are stupid or dont know what a movie is or whatever other insult you can think of. they remind me of christians where they cant even fathom the concept that someone might not share their opinion of something. and there has to be a problem with them, it cant just be a difference of opinion, no...they're just wrong. of course this goes beyond star wars and applies to just about every "geek" movie,show,comic or whatnot. i'll never understand why they feel the need to be "right" so badly. there's many movies and shows i like that others think suck, it doesnt mean their idiots with no taste, it means they have a different opinion.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:11 p.m. CST

    oh...i should say something on topic though

    by Bouncy X

    the whole "for kids" argument sorta applies in this case since its a cartoon that was made for kids. even though the storyline's part of the movie universe, its not the live action movies so its no surprise its filled with kiddie crap.

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 10:45 p.m. CST


    by pauduro

    but eather way im going to see it a FANBOY freand is going to pay (thankfolie) and im going to have to stay with my coments of the movie cos he get angrie and thing every starwars THING its a master pice

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:02 p.m. CST

    Well at least Lucas got something right...

    by ptooey

    "Anger leads to hate... Hate, to suffering..."

  • Aug. 15, 2008, 11:32 p.m. CST

    When you were 5 to 10 years old would you have liked this?

    by GornPirate

    I am from the first generation of star wars fans. I was 5 years old when Star Wars, no A New Hope stuff, was released in 1977. I grew up with it and loved it. I had all of the toys. I grew up also watching cartoons like Star Blazers, G-Force, Transfromers,GI Joe etc...... I loved that stuff then. I took my 5 year old daughter to see the Clone wars today and she loved it. Now I admit it that this was no master piece but ulitmately this is nothing more than the first few episodes of a new cartoon series. I know I would have loved a cartoon like this when I was a kid and I think most of the folks of that first generation would have too when they were between 5 and 10 years old. It's easy to pick this stuff apart as adults and think that the material is the problem. These films are geared towards kids. Yes nothing since ESB has captured the magic of the first two and had the ability to appeal to the kid in all of us. But these films were always geared towards kids and I think in the end it's not the material that has grown so bad as it that most of us are in our 30's now and just can't accept this story for it what it is any more. We want it to have grown with us and it has not and it's never going to. Either accept that, enjoy it with your kids, or move along finding something that appeals to your more adult/mature sensibiities. With all of it's flaws I know I would have loved this as a kid.

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 12:32 a.m. CST

    Xlnt review

    by quantize

    all needs to be said..I was 10yrs old and thrilled out my mind when i first saw SW in '77 with my Dad..Empire was equally exciting, as was Return, despite those fucking ewoks...But now, the editing in the prequels is diabolical, the dialog and acting, humorless and stiff..that 'realistic' dirty future we loved on Tatooine is dead, replaced by a heartless and disinterested technical obsession with art direction and CGI. Only a true Star Wars fan calls it the way Massawyrm has..Harry still clings to retarded hopes..hopes that would be better invested in new and original sci-fi and fantasy films..time to leave Lucas stew in his billions and focus on people who passionately WANT to make effective movies in this genre - for kids and adults alike!.

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 12:33 a.m. CST

    PS...even my 10 yr old nephew prefers the trilogy

    by quantize

    ..which is even more damning really.

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 12:55 a.m. CST

    samsquanch, that wasn't my point at all

    by darthflagg

    My point was that ROTS presented many reasons for Anakin to turn to the dark side (the loss of his mother, fear of losing his wife and child, lust for power, need for order, etc. etc.), while TDK (which I loved for the most part) presented barely any reasons for Harvey to turn bad. Yet the latter still got hailed as a flawless masterpiece by many. Just asking that both films be judged by the same criteria. As for TCW, it was mediocre. It's the kind of film the prequels weren't - juvenile and plotless.

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 1:08 a.m. CST

    Lucas raped Massa's mama

    by jules windex

    Mass demeans anyone who---oh my god, NO!--liked the prequels, as being mindless zombies who worship at GL's feet. Nice chickenshit way to make your arguments, bub. Well in that case anyone who hated the PT decided to hate them before ever seeing them. After all, PT haters trot out all the same talking points as the Lucas cult do to defend the films.

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 4:52 a.m. CST

    LOTR:FOTR first OT feeling since the OT.

    by krylite

    was when Gandalf leaves Frodo with the envelope and we see Barad-dur being rebuilt with gollum screaming. I was thinking and feeling; I hadn't been this pumped on sci-fi/fantasy films since EMPIRE. Willow, dark crystal, labyrinth, bill and ted, they all SUCKED or at not in the same league. ROTS brought a little back, but face it; it was the only the STORY, those last few pages to be turned, those scenes where Anakin betrays Mace, then got his legs cut off and the mask put on, the story that brought the OT feeling back if for a few minutes like a numbshot. 4 yrs old: SW; I thought Chewie was too furry. 7 yrs old: Empire, blown away. had no idea the seeming clown Yoda could be a jedi master until he literally dropped his act. Then was blown away again. the sense of wonder, in those dagobah training scenes. 12 yrs old, Jedi: let down of the stupid eyeball at jaba's door, the gross snootles and that nasty bad pre-jar jar crumb puppet. WORST PART: When Leia starts feeding that stupid fat teddy bear. I was thinking at the time, can't we just MOVE ON , but no, all the horror, we have to see the teddy bear village and their worshipping of Threepio while they kneel showing off their pajama padded furry butts! Even at 8 years old, myself and most kids my age would think the ewoks were Stupid with a capital S just like samsquanch said. kids were far less brainwashed with cute crap 30 years ago. You had cartoons like star blazers, and battle of the planets and bullwinkle kids who like sci-fi would rather watch than the post-Barney crap you see now. You even had that Star Blazer lady's bra busting out in a gravity/vacuum scene or whatever. Maybe Lucas was going for 2-3.9 year olds after Jedi.

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 10:14 a.m. CST

    I guess one TB is enough for this review.

    by L.H.Puttgrass

    Noone seems to need this one: <p> <p> I guess it'll just fade into the lost recesses of the internet. Gone 'til someone finds it again. Probably Orcus.

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 10:23 a.m. CST


    by alcester

    I didnt even like YODA, the writing was on the wall then. Lucas was going to keep this franchise on a pre-teen level. GREED WARS!

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 1:44 p.m. CST

    Meant for kids...

    by BarCrow

    Star Wars...meant for kids...I saw it when I was a child and still love..the I can't even recall any true kid's film I saw in my youth that endures as long as star wars. Because it was never strictly for children. Lucas has merely copped out...lost his edge...become an aged hack who is not content to settle for the billions he already has and leave well enough alone. (too late for that anyhow)..not happy to allow his initial legacy...sprung from either his carnal endeavors or the loins of his imagination...endure. Desire and greed has overcome the poor old sod and in the end..he has fucked more children of the seventies and eighties than even any Archbishop's wildest fantasies.

  • Aug. 16, 2008, 5:45 p.m. CST

    Rose tinted glasses

    by GalacticWar

    I think a lot of people have these and don't realise it. People ALWAYS prefer the films/music/TV of their youth. That's just the way it is. No sense in complaining about it.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 2 a.m. CST

    Lucas = selling out to himself

    by mintoncard

    It's no accident that Lucas has been making Star Wars "kid friendly" since Return of the Jedi. It's quite simple: Lucas is all out of creativity, yet he still wants money. He know that if he markets Star Wars to kids (movies, TV, toys etc), the money will flow. The reason he is such a megalomaniac about the property, is because he KNOWS it's now all kid-friendly and shallow. Therefore, if he didn't surround himself with "yes-men", every employee (including the janitor) at Lucasfilm would have him committed to an asylum for even SUGGESTING things like huttlets, Jar-Jar, Midichlorians, or adding a re-worked dance number at Jabba's palace. Special Editions?? That's like Orson Welles coming back from the dead and wanting to digitally put Agnes Moorehead dressed as a flapper into a background scene from Citizen Kane. It's just absurd. The original Star Wars was fine as it was. It was back in 1986, when the Star Wars figure line was reintroduced to the public, that the dollar-signs lit up the eyeballs of George Lucas like a winning slot machine. He realized that Star Wars was still a marketable brand. That was when he decided to do the "special editions". Honestly, I don't think George had ANY intention of ever doing the prequels. I think he just looked at the marketing revenue from the re-releases, and decided, "fuck it, I can bullshit my way through 3 new films for this kind of cash." And that was what he did. So, in the end, it is NOT about the story, or the characters, or a quality product, or any originality at all. It's quantity over quality. In my opinion, the last "good idea" Lucas had, was bangin' Linda Ronstadt back in 1984.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 2:38 a.m. CST

    I don't know...

    by codymr

    Can't say I'm a fan of the new SW films... they were OK (the narrative played out in a different way then what I expected, or wanted) but I can't say that the Potter films are any better. Neither franchise is as good as Lord of the Rings or the SW OT. Funny thing is, I have an old TIME magazine article that interviews Lucas just before the release of Jedi and he states that if he ever goes back to make I-III, they would be very different and have less action and be more political. Personally, I think that was the wrong way to go, but I have to give the dude credit for doing what he said he was planning to do. As for the merchandising... it's always been there. There was so much crap around in the early 80's it was overwhelming... and yes the crappy animation was around too - does anyone remember Droids or Ewoks? What about the Holiday Special or the Ewok MOWs? All of these spin offs (I guess people call it EU now) were weak. It's just as adults we are aware of the Lucasfilm marketing machine... as kids, we were not and lapped it up like my little cousin does with the prequel merchandise. It's all about one's perspective. I think most of us have outgrown Lucas' SW. It's a shame the franchise can't be updated like BSG was when they rebooted the that series for a post 9/11 world.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 4:15 a.m. CST

    One thing...

    by jsm1978

    I really wish people would stop using the argument "we already know how it's going to end". True, that might remove any feeling of peril, but that doesn't mean there aren't stories worth telling about these characters.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 4:18 a.m. CST

    Biggest problem right here...

    by jsm1978

    Going to quote you for a second Codymr <p> "the narrative played out in a different way then what I expected, or wanted"<p> Everyone had their own ideas about what the story should be, partly fueled by years of wondering, partly fueld be EU stuff, and when the trilogy didn't give them exactly what they had pictured in their head, they threw a hissy fit.<p> Are they exactly the same? No, they do lack a certain amount of charm (that was mostly brought about by Solo, a character type sorely lacking in these movies). Phantom Menace has actually grown on me, Clones feels like a boring video game (no one wants to just sit and watch people play games), but Sith is a good Star Wars movie, better than Jedi in my opinion.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 5:19 a.m. CST

    I feel sorry for you guys

    by Giant Ape Balls

    As part of your job you have to go and watch soulless bilge like this. It must be so annoying to have to watch someone fuck up something that was so good and then have the balls to tell you that you're wrong and you don't understand just how great it is.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 11:40 a.m. CST

    Why Can't George just be like I want him to be?

    by palpeedude

    Serious! I love the original Series. Why can't he just be the same person he was in 1977? Why can't he just stay the same so he can just keep making the same movie I loved so much? Why don't these movies I am seeing now make me feel the same way the original trilogy made me feel? Why can't his material grow along with ME? Why can't every movie he makes from now on make me feel the same way I did when I was 11? I am 33 now, so why can't they make me feel that way again? Why? Why? Why? You whiny babies. If you would just look at Clone Wars like you would any other movie, and not bring with you all the expectation of something it barely ha any ties to. You might actually think the movie was fun. IS that so bad? A fun and NOT SERIOUS take on Star Wars? I"m sorry, but the battle droid goofiness was actually pretty funny, once you just relax and go to the movies to simply enjoy yourself. Like you do with every other movie except Star Wars.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 1:45 p.m. CST


    by codymr

    I'd have to agree with you to a point. My personal view is that Sith and Jedi are very similar in some ways... some great stuff, but flawed films. But, as a kid I loved Jedi and I think that is because I had not developed the critical thinking skills that I had when I saw Sith a few years ago. As an example, I took my little cousin to see all 3 prequels and he thought Sith was the greatest film EVER. As for the years of expectations, you are right, it may have been impossible for the prequels to live up to peoples own imaginations. But, what I was trying to get at, but perhaps not as clearly as I could have, was that yes I did have an internal story of how I thought the Clone Wars era would be and I can't blame Lucas for not directing my own internal SW movie... But, there were some hints here and there that Kenobi talks about in terms of the recent history of the republic and Lucas decided to ignore or change that continuity. For example, Anakin was MUCH younger than originally intended, for that matter, so was Obi Wan. This changed the continuity of the earlier films. I think that is partly why Lucas removed Sebastian Shaw and added Hayden Christensen at the end of Jedi... Shaw's Akakin was so old it did not fit what had been established in the prequel films. That seems to be lazy story telling and that is one of many issues I had with the prequel trilogy.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 1:58 p.m. CST


    by codymr

    Do I hate the Prequels? No, not really (I think a lot of people get overly emotional about the whole debate). There have been plenty of "kid's" and "children's" films that are worse than the SW prequels. In fact the new SW films are probably closer to the higher end of scale than the lower when it comes to quality... the problem is that the field is MUCH more competitive: Potter, Lord of the Rings, The Matrix, Batman, PIXAR, etc etc etc... The genera is more crowded and consumers have more choice. Back in 77, about the only other studio making fantasy and films for children was Dinsey, and they were probably at their lowest ebb in terms of quality in the late seventies - The Mouse House's animation and live action divisions were in disarray. Since 99, some studios have been able to compete with Lucasfilm and beat them at their own game. TDK is a prime example.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 7:37 p.m. CST


    by jsm1978

    Wasn't trying to take shots at you or what you said, I just borrowed your phrase to make my point about the general reaction of people... particularly here.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 9:58 p.m. CST

    hear, hear

    by biginjapants

    Very well put, Wyrm. Too bad it has to be said.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 10:30 p.m. CST


    by codymr

    It's all cool. You quoting my post made me start to think more about the issue and that I was unclear about my point of view... just adding to what I had said earlier as your post got me thinking.

  • Aug. 17, 2008, 11:54 p.m. CST

    Massawyrm you twat

    by wonderllama

    Why can't you aintitcool reporters understand a very simple concept. When we Star Wars fans come out and say "this is meant for kids anyway" we aren't talking about the ENTIRE Star Wars franchise...we're talking about THIS ANIMATED SERIES. It isn't a hard concept to grasp. And you condescending article in which you attempt to 'educate' us as to what constitutes a children's or kid's movie is just moronic. Have you SEEN any other movie franchises? A kids version of the story is ALWAYS released either in comic form or in YOUNG READER form. The Star Wars Universe had an entire SERIES of books designed for young readers. They had EWOK Cartoons, they had DROIDS cartoons....BOTH aimed at kids. NOT adults KIDS. There were the two Ewok live action movies...designed for FAMILIES. No Massawyrm, you are the one not understanding are not understanding it AT ALL. You have fallen into the typical fanboy trap of not THINKING. You see Star Wars and you say "I..LOVE...STAR...WARS...THIS...IS...FOR...ME" Gimme a break! This series...the CLONE WARS aimed at KIDS. The toys released are aimed at kids, in fact Hasbro themselves admit that their products are aimed at CHILDREN. Now the older fanboys among us can collect what we like and there are even HIGHER END collectibles out there for us.... Would you go out and buy a Star Wars bib? How about a Star Wars shirt for a 2 year old? No? Why's that? Isn't Star Wars an ADULT franchise? NO IT ISN'T!!!!! It's aimed at ALL markets and THIS time it just happens to be aimed at the KIDS. Get the FUCK over yourself and wait for the live action show which IS going to be aimed at you. Of course, then we'll see hundreds of reviews in this place claiming that "Star Wars is back" or "This is more like it"...further proving you guys have NO IDEA what the hell you're talking about.

  • Aug. 18, 2008, 12:23 a.m. CST


    by codymr

    You make some great points. I don't have anything to add really, just a giving my props where props are due.

  • Aug. 18, 2008, 12:24 a.m. CST


    by codymr

    Lots of yelling around here all of the sudden.

  • Aug. 18, 2008, 12:52 a.m. CST


    by wonderllama

    Thanks man...I think I peed a bit typing that :)

  • April 19, 2010, 1:34 p.m. CST


    by orcus

    Orcus has found it. No worries