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Will Lucas DeShia INDY 5?? Or At Least Go Shia Lite??
Merrick here...
Shortly before the release of INDIANA JONES AND THE KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL, George Lucas discussed the possibility that Shia LeBeouf's Mutt Williams character would become the lead character in INDY 5, with Harrison Ford's 'Indy' taking an involved back seat.
in this dynamic, Ford would become more like the Sean Connery character in LAST CRUSADE, chasing lead Shia around on adventures.
Some felt that Lucas 'must' be joking with his comments, although we've had multiple confirmations on the matter from spies, etc. - which means the notion was being discussed before Lucas' comments were ever made public (article HERE).
Not surprisingly, this notion was wasn't well received throughout the fan base, and Mutt himself was poorly regarded by many viewers. Annnnndddd...now comes word that Lucas may be reconsidering making making Shia the lead in INDY 5.
“Indiana Jones is Indiana Jones. Harrison Ford IS Indiana Jones,” Lucas said, dismissively adding about a character he helped create that, “If it was Mutt Williams it would be ‘Mutt Williams and the Search for Elvis’ or something.”
..says Lucas in THIS INTERVIEW over at MTV. In the piece, Lucas also says he's working to find something for Indy & Co. to pursue in a fifth installment.
Lucas isn't clear about to what extent Shia would appear in the theoretical fifth film (or if he'll be disappeared like Short Round), and doesn't discuss factors leading to the apparent resizing of LeBeouf's role.
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Same with Shia.
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I wonder if that had an effect on Lucus or if this is simply a creative decision.
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I'm feeling ill.....
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He was no Jar Jar Binks, that's for sure. I don't think I'd be interested in a whole movie about him, though.
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But did he say it was going to be Indy 5? Maybe they would make Mutt 1 or something instead, and inculde Harrison in that.
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he doesnt deny wanting to continue the franchise with mutt, he's just saying it would indeed be his own movie and not be called indiana jones. of course that was pretty much a given. course i'm one of those "idiots" who enjoyed the last movie so whats it matter what i think. :P
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That was really funny! And apparently it was done by like a 10 year old. Good work, kid!
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So I hope he is still in Part 5 but just if he has equal scenes with Indiana Jone
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Damn You Michael Bay
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As a life-long Star Wars/Indiana Jones fanboy--I even have Star Wars tattoos--just let it go. Write a novel or something.
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But Harrison Ford playing off Shia?? To quote Shia, "No no no no no no NO NO NO."
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next gen Indiana Jones videogame, and let the series rest in peace....PLEASE?
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The script was not. But he should totally be kept to that sidekick role.
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actually I would rather watch a documentary about lucas' stool.
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He was a bit of a bad influence on old HarryF on set so will NOT be coming back.
Old news is Old -
last year by Shia, Harrison mentioned that we'd be seeing a whole lot more of "The Beef" in the future. If that was code for Indiana Jones spin-offs, I hope his earring was pinching him too tightly.
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The prob with the film wasn't Shia. It was that the baddies weren't bad enough; there were a bit too many talky scenes (the whole magnetic skull thing got a bit complicated); and the tone got a bit too light towards the end. Still, it was a damn enjoyable film. Indiana Jones one week, Batman the next? It's like 1989 all over again!!
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Another sad tale of young talent gone wrong...
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Or perhaps they can look for Spielberg and Lucas' Souls...as they seem to have misplaced them.
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To be honest, I don't think he's been bad in anything. He is usually the bright spot in the movies.
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I thought 4 was OK. Clearly the weakest film of the franchise, but if you're simply asking if I thought it was good or bad, I'd say it falls more on the side of good.
I don't think they could get away with a fifth film though. -
He had to know that his character was lame... but would you have passed up the opportunity star in an Indiana Jones movie? Fuck no. I think Lucas should leave the storytelling to Spielberg and stick to making sure that he has eveything he needs to make a good movie. Although I think they should've left well enough alone, the can of worms is open and they owe the fans a proper Indy movie. Keep Shia's character waaaay in the background, or just write him out altogether.
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I know you all like to say that Spielberg would have made a masterpiece, but that Lucas fucked it up. NOT SO. Take a look at their 2005 films. Both, in different ways, addressed the climate of fear in the world today. REVENGE OF THE SITH said, very plainly, that despotic leaders use fear - even creating a war - to increase their power and make their electorate malleable. It also said that fear can lead and individual to do evil things. The film goes from action high-jinks to a sombre, even tragic tone. WAR OF THE WORLD, however, has no such reflective quality about it. It simply capitalizes on contemporary fears of terrorist attacks to make an audience scared. If anything, it feeds our fear, rather than asking us to question it. A brilliantly made film, yes. But essentially a bad film.
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meh!
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What is it with these family reunions in Indy films? Let's hope he doesn't bump into his long-lost brother next. Anyway, getting Indy and Marion hitched at the end is a step in the right direction. Now all we need is to get Lawrence Kasdan back into the equation and then we're set.
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Let's get a screenwriter who understands the characters and doesn't write scenes in which snakes are used as ropes.
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go into space in the next one, since it is the 60s, and should go on the moon.
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Don't blame the monkey scene on him if you don't like it. Call me crazy but the guy has chops. I'd love to see a Mutt Williams movie... just don't call Indiana Jones.
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must. drink. more. coffee.
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The script could've been much better without the character. Their first meeting and the motorbike chase were cool, but as soon as their dynamic grows when searching the skull it became apparent it wasn't working THAT well. And the vines scene was truly mindnumblingly bad.
Besides, Lucas' arrogance about his creative dynamic with Spielberg (http://tinyurl.com/5l2kqx) makes me dread a fifth installment. I'd love to have another flick, but only if Spielberg can have it his way. No more unnecessary CGI, no more awkward team up, no more useless secondary characters. And no more goofy prairie dogs. -
Aug 06, 2008 9:13:28 AM CDT
Lose the shitty comic relief moments + get a real script
by darth voodoo
And give Indiana Jones the hard hitting back to the basics script he deserves.
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KOTCS's script sucked. I've seen better fan made scripts.
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Umm, George, hey is that a mirror? He was fine but however the script SUCKED, direction sucked, story in general sucked, cgi/fx sucked, action HUH! Honest to god with this much sucking I would have thought I just watched a porn flick, but unfortunately no happy ending! I’m tired of Lucas he really has no clue how clueless he has become.
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Autobots, roll out!
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I think your analogy of Sith and WOTW is correct but wrong sided. Lucas took the more complex themes and made a clunky film, Spielberg took the more simplistic themes and made (as you admitted) a brilliantly made film, plot points aside.
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I hate to say it, but I'm starting to wonder if Spielberg has lost his touch for directing action films. He still makes great films, but they are not in the sci-fi genre. Ever since JP2 Spielberg has been mediocre at best. He is a still great craftsman and that can hide a lot, but he isn't doing truly great work in this genre anymore.
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But Lucas is far worse as he actually thinks he is creating something important...whilst Spielberg knows he is just pumping out Shit for the Base of society.
Sith was so poorly scripted, and acted, I fail to see how you found any weight in that silly CGI wankfest. Whatever "Message" Lucas tried to convey was obviously beyond his skill and lost in a sea simplistic one liners that sound as if lifted from a Saturday morning cartoon. Looking back I see that Sith was silly, trite, and the only thing "tragic" about it was the fact that after the first two SW Shitfest prequels...we were gullible enough to give Lucas one last chance. -
Amazingly enough, he was fine in Transformers and he was fine in this.
The main problem with KOTCS is that Indy doesn't save the day. The villians get what they want, and we watch CGI as opposed to getting any resolution of story.
Even worse, KOTCS steals the end shot for Total Recall. Alien technology activates, shoots out water, dissapears, and the heroes escape to stand on a ledge and look where the alien technology used to be.
Seriously, watch both again. They flat-out stole the ending from Total Recall. -
It seems that if we follow the quality level and Spielberg's own comments 1, 3 and then 5 will be better than 2, 4, and someday 6, so stop at 5.
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. . . fly his motorcycle to foreign lands without actually using it, I'm so THERE!!!
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Instead of others like John Hurt and Karen Allen prancing around, gurning, phoning it in. Ford and Shia did really well IMO, the movie should have featured them together more without getting bogged down with too many characters.
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War of the Worlds was designed as a thrill ride, nothing more. If you want to compare story depth between Lucas and Spielberg, check out Munich, which also came out that same year.
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this might have something to do with Shia's rather infantile offscreen behaviour? One report said that his hand was crushed in this latest car crash and that he may never completely recover.
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"I fix motorcycles and look for SKOALS"
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The character brought nothing to the table. His talents were to crash a motorcycle, lose at fencing, and comb his hair. That's just not going to compete with a fist-fighting, whip-swinging, tomb-raiding, Nazi-fighting archeologist.
I wasn't hostile towards the idea of a spinoff son character, but Lucas gave us the blandest would-be action hero in recent memory. No way could he or should he carry a film. And I think it's too late to ret-con tome utility into him. Too bad. -
I still contend the jet pack and car assembly chase in Minority Report is brilliantly staged, with a realistic combination of effects and stuntwork. And the mall escape scene with the precog is staged and edited perfectly.
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Munich had its moments, but it was a very flawed movie. With that, The Terminal, WOTW and now Crystal Skull, I'm starting to think that Spielberg is going through another tailspin like he did immediately prior to Jurassic Park. (Last Crusade was so-so, followed by Always and Hook, two of his least memorable movies). I hope the Lincoln movie gets him on track again.
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In fact he was quite good in it.
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now THAT's funny. =)
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I don't really mind Sharia LeBeef Wellington. IMHO what made Indy 4 painful was Karen Allen's god-awful line delivery and the fact that they didn't shoot anything on location. All of that, of course, points directly at Spielberg. Steve, buddy, return to your epic scope roots, my friend.
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Aug 06, 2008 9:29:05 AM CDT
"we'd be seeing a whole lot more of "The Beef" in the future"
by wookie1972
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Aug 06, 2008 9:29:16 AM CDT
"we'd be seeing a whole lot more of "The Beef" in the future"
by wookie1972
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Shia really wasn't too bad, its just unfortunate that "Shia Lite" come dangerously close to describing the mess that IV gave us.
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the worst thing about Crystal Skull is that you can't take it away; it exists and will forever exist as the fourth Indiana Jones
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Aug 06, 2008 9:29:58 AM CDT
"we'd be seeing a whole lot more of "The Beef" in the future"
by wookie1972
That was Harrison referring to his new career in adult entertainment. BTW, sorry about the triple post.
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and "shia lite" sounds like shite...
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because it was a change, fans feared it.
H O W E V E R...
I dont think he's ready to take over as soon as Indy 5. How about Indy 6 or 7, instead. Harrison Ford still has some movies left in this character, and if we de-retardify it - honestly, Indy 4 had a bit of a Highlander II aftertaste, on that we can agree? - if it gets back to the basics. Like oh I dont know, whatever became of the True Cross? or those Dead Sea Scrolls are rather mysterious. Hitler actively searched for The Spear of Destiny. There still remains a host of Judaic relics that are perfect McGuffins for an Indy movie. Just please dont send Indy on a space shuttle to mars to check out its giant 'face rock' or something equally absurd.
Shia was awesome in this movie. The problem is that so many of you hopped on board the 'lets wisecrack about Shia' bandwagon, that you're afraid you'll look like massive asshats if you climb back down. luls at all of you. -
I rather liked Munich. I thought The Terminal was adequate, but I really liked Catch Me If You Can. Minority Report was great if you chop off the ending. War of the Worlds was great if you chop off the ending. KOTCS was good fun if you chop off the ending.
He needs to stop trying to force the happy ending, but I think he is still a solid director. -
"Let it go." Were it announced, I'd be all for Indy 5 just to see what would happen, but it's really not necessary. Lucas & Speilberg can co-produce and let another writer-director team take a shot. How about locking Frank Darabont and Brad Bird in a room with a baseball bat, and whomever walks out on two legs gets to direct, and the other guy has to write the script. Fair enough?
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Why is evryone whinning about this movie? I enjoyed myself a lot. Sure parts of it were completly absurd but so what? You're willing to buy that Indy found the holy grail, and the lost arc but not that he survived a nuclear bomb? i mean come on people it was just a fun movie.
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And I'm probably the only person who thinks that AI was 1)underrated and 2) not "ruined" by Spielberg but was not as good as it could be simply because Spielberg's style clashed with Kubrick's. And Catch Me If You Can was a great movie, period.
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Seriously, does his mom post on here under different names or something?
"Whee! Look at me! I'm a greaser swinging in the jungle! Yipee!" -
was another clash of styles. Spielberg just didn't seem to have his heart in it.
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is because he was a wayward unfocused school dropout that was doing nothing and going nowhere. He had AMBITIONS to work on motorcycles, but you get the feeling that even that wasn't something he'd ever stick with. He had no skills because he was wandering through life and not really set on any particular goal. Y'know - like a real teenager. By the next movie, I fully expect to see him enrolled in a very busy curriculum under his father's watchful eye on campus. He will still be in that 'short round' capacity, but he'll be able to bring more to the adventure because he'll be a student of archeology (and maybe spelling). It will set the stage for Indy 6 by concluding with his graduation and/or entry in to a doctorate program. At which point, the next movie (indy 6) will open with him in a teaching role, having virtually taken over where his father left off.
and I think it would be just fine. I feel bad for people who hated this movie before it came out, and now are not able to back down from the tall towers they built for themselves. -
I think you're confusing "Shia Love" with the ability that the rest of us have to realize that it wasn't his script that called for his character to swing from vines. Your issue is with the writer/director.
Do you blame Harrison Ford for Greedo shooting first? -
The quote doesn't back up the headline. He just says that a movie about Mutt Williams would be titled Mutt Williams, not Indiana Jones. So it would be Mutt 1, not Indy 5, but I'm sure you would all still find ways to be offended by it and cry for the next 25 years about what it did to your memories of Mutt Williams.
I mean that respectfully though, we are all friends and colleagues here. -
alright, i didnt mind him in Constantine, I,Robot or Transformers, but for some reason in indy 5, he annoyed the hell out of me. he got the bulk of the action and made indy look like a pointless old fart. it didnt need a young kid in it, that was the whole point of everyone wanting a new indy film... we wanted indy!
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In absence of Harrison Ford, I would not have minded seeing Shia take over. But if Ford is up for a fifth movie, then hell yes, I would love another Indy movie over a Mutt Williams one.
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Minority Report was a good movie, but its flaws were in the ending and its star. The ending was too neat-tidy-sappy. It didn't have to necessarily end with Cruise in cryoprison, but the tacked on "Pre-Cogs in a Cabin" bit was lame and there could have been some ambivalence. And if you're going to cut the balls off the movie with that ending, at least give it some back by leaving the "Murders increased by 800% the following year" postscript that was supposed to be in there. Also...this was right around the time the world was starting to get seriously sick of Tom Cruise. The subsequent years have only made it worse as unforgiving opinionated geeks won't budge on calling most Cruise big ol' pieces of shit, justified or not.
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It is called Raiders of the Lost Arc. The secret to enjoying Indiana Jones is to stop watching Indiana Jones movies after its credits roll. Instead, just watch it again. I know some people have been known to say nice things about an apparent third movie but to me that was just a boring hollywood cash grab sequel made long after its relevant due date. Totally forgettable apparently since other than Indiana Jones arguing with Sean Connery on a zeppelin, I can't remember a damn thing about it. Not a problem I have with Raiders.
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Is that the Russians weren't that interested in them, and Spielberg has said he doesn't want to do comically inept Nazis anymore.
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Is that the Russians weren't that interested in them, and Spielberg has said he doesn't want to do comically inept Nazis anymore.
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I'm one who just went to KOTCS looking for another Indy movie, nothing more. I got it. It was at least as good as Last Crusade, IMHO (My least fav of the series) and maybe a tad better. Shia was fine, and if they spon out a "Mutt Williams" series, I'd be down. (Don't call it "Indiana Jones") I enjoyed the chemistry between Shia and Harrison a lot in KOTCS. However, it would need a whole new tone...50's B-movie stuff. Mutt vs. the Blob or stuff like that. He doesn't need the damn hat...he's got his hair.
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I understand people who said the script was not a 20 years worth. (sorry if my english is bad), And Lucas saying that Spielberg is more open now to do a 5th could be translate by "Spielberg is more open to do a 5th now...because the 4th don't let a very good taste in his mouth.
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...dropped Marion from the 2nd movie for Shortround and Kate Capshaw. Not that Temple Of Doom would have been any better...but he could have established some continuity. I didn't care one bit for those characters. Did Karen Allen not want to return I wonder?
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I have never seen Shia in any film before Indy 4, but I thought that his character Mutt was actually pretty damn good. Mutt and Indy had a great competitive relationship and it worked because Indy kept on getting the upper hand. I felt the first half of Indy 4 was superb but it definitely wavered during the second half. Although, I still maintain that the good outweighed the bad. In other words, it's pretty much on par with Indy 2 and 3. As much as I loved ToD and LC, when I rewatched them before seeing KotCS, I noticed a lot of problems with those films that wasn't present when I was younger. Fortunately, in all three cases I still believe there's a lot more good stuff than bad stuff.
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"Woluds" are hard to come by
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"Indiana Jones vs. The Blob?" Okay, see, I'm there for that one. "Indiana Jones and MANT!" Hell yeah. "Indiana Jones and Plan 9 From Outer Space?" Save me a spot in front of the Arclight.
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...as grist for more misplaced internet nerd rage. The reflexive hate for anything that Lucas says at this point makes an actual quote meaningless. He could say he's going grocery shopping and people would want him flayed alive for it. None of this has any basis in fact and is just more speculation based on riffs introduced in the latest movie (who in their right mind would assume Shia is going to be Indiana Jones in another movie?). As for LeBouf, the hate for him would be exponentially smaller if he had a more pedestrian name. He's a decent actor but everyone piles on him like 12 year old school girls over his name. AICN needs to clean up its act as it regards Lucas. At this point it has been reduced to calculated yet unaware self parody whenever he's mentioned on this site.
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The stuff in the preface of the novelization of Star Wars was mostly speculation on the part of Alan Dean Foster (Lucas' ghostwriter). The only part that is really canon is the fact that the Emperor is named Palpatine. I firmly believe that Lucas never had the movies as planned out as he now claims. (For one thing, he now says it was always supposed to be 6 movies, not 9, which is total bull).
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I'd see that. *shrugs*
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...is it just "the cool" thing to do around here? there are FAR more annoying actors out there. in fact, i am going to go ahead and say that i rather like the kid.
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What about the other so so performances int he film? What about the idiotic script? What about the suprisingly badly handled action scenes like the car chase? What about the terrible script and even worse ending? I guess none of those things matter.
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Aug 06, 2008 9:51:25 AM CDT
i believe that the only thing that would make everyone happy...
by wookie1972
Is for George and Steven to bring back Larry Kasdan. He hasn't written a script he hasn't directed since The Bodyguard (and that was an older script, originally meant for Steve McQueen), but they should promise a truckload of money plus producer's credit, anything to get him back.
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Indy should of had a daughter. It would of gave the film the intensity it needed.
Daughters in the eyes of fathers are more fragile and the urge to protect them is strong. The audience would care more about a young girl in harms way, than a guy in his early 20s.
Also, the film should of just started with Indy already married to Marion and having a family. After all, it's been almost 20 years since Last Crusade. Stuff happens, we don't need to see it from the beginning.
The film needed to be more EPIC IN SCOPE. More LOCATION SHOOTING. There were too many SETS (This isn't freaking Star Trek). This was suppose to be a movie...not a T.V. show. Dah, even the Young Indy series was more epic than this.
Too much CGI!! The originals didn't have cgi, neither should new ones.
The fridge scene was o.k. It fit right in with the raft falling out of the airplane scene in TEMPLE OF DOOM.
Actually, I don't consider KINGDOM OF THE CRYSTAL SKULL a sequel to RAIDERS. I Consider it a sequel to TEMPLE OF DOOM and LAST CRUSADE. Both of those films had completly different tones and felt different from RAIDERS. RAIDERS had a more realistic approach to it, with a touch a the fantastic thrown in(but shot in a realistic way), while the other three just seemed fake. The world they inhabitied felt fake.
Get Lawarance Kasdan back to script. -
Seriously, I was hankering for a big box of "C-3POs" cereal, so I went to the market and...what the fuck? Come to find out they haven't made "C3POs" since 1985! Damn you Lucas! You changed an essential part of my childhood! You raped my grocery list! Now I cannot function! Nipples on Jar Jar! Aggggggggh!!! Rawr!!!
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What really dawned on me after watching it was that Lucas stalled and bitched and moaned for almost 20 years that the crystal skull plotline was the ONLY one he would consider, while Spielberg and Ford held back, waiting for a better idea. I think the crystal skull plotline was fine, BUT, if Lucas hadn't been so damn stubborn, they could have made a different Indy 4 movie ten or fifteen years ago and STILL just done the crystal skull plotline for Indy 5. Really, would that have been so bad? :)
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That Shia wasn't really the problem. Of course, anyone could see that. It's just a bad idea to have movie spinoffs from a character as bad as Mutt. He works ok as a B-teamer, but not in the lead. Let Indy 5 be what people actually want to see.
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I don't give a flying fart whether or not Shia is in it - I will never again knowingly give any money to George Lucas. The fat bastard has been creatively bankrupt for 2 decades and worse than that, he has gone out of his way to bugger up the very things he actually got right in the first place, e.g continually fucking around with the original SW trilogy. 'Crystal Skull' was the final nail in his groaning coffin. George, please - have the sense to know when you're completely fucked, and stop.
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It's not arrogance, that's his friend he's talking about. He's just saying once upon a time, he could ride herd cause it was his baby, but that's not the case anymore. Big deal; it's true.
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So of course Lucas would diminish his role in Indy 5.
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That also would have tied in with the old Indy from the TV show who had a daughter. Ah well.
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Lucas seems to suggest that he's realised there's no love for a mutt spin off. That's all. He's not saying that Mutt was the reason people weren't crazy about indy 5.
i agree, bring back Kasdan, and let spielberg direct it the way he wants to. -
But, he acts the same in every film he's in. Wonder what his hot "Even Stevens" sister is doing now?
Btw...Indy 4 was enjoyable! Nothing special though. The music sucked. John Williams hasn't done a good memorable score since Jurassic Park.
Btw...did I mention that the "Evens Stevens" girl was freaking hot! -
I didn't hate the guy per se, but I recall a couple years ago where he was all on this, "yeah, I don't drink, that's how the rest of these cats get in trouble" thing, and it was basically lip service to an extent. Whether he caused the accident or not, dude was still under the influence, which don't exactly hold up in court. I'm sure the two beards already scolded him accordingly.
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In fact, the whole fucking cast was fine and they were playing good characters. It was Spielburg who phoned it in with lacklustre stunts, no tension, and not enough humour.
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Indy 4 was about 20 years too late, is Indy 5 even on the table? If so, WHY?
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I'd like to interpret the film that way too, but between MR and A.I., I find it difficult to make the stretch without assuming I'm taking the story where Spielberg didn't intend it to. Sure, David eternally staring at the blue fairy and Tom Cruise dreaming in cryosleep would be thought-provoking, 70's-ish endings. I just don't think Spielberg's that guy anymore. Come to think of it, he never was. The Shark blew up, the Ark only killed the bad guys, ET went home, and half the people who died in the Jurassic Park novel lived through the movie.
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I'd like to see them together again. I like how Harrison took THE HAT away from him. He's not ready to hand it over....and Mutt isn't ready. I always thought that the name Mutt was nick name. He must have another name.
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shia wasnt bad though. too bad the movie he was in sucked balls.
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Aug 06, 2008 10:18:48 AM CDT
he's working to find something for Indy & Co. to pursue in a fif
by rameses
Shows just how half-arsed these films have become.Lucas hasn't got a wealth of great stories he's waiting to tell.It's like a chore to him , trying to find something for the character to actually do!What's the point.He may as well give up now.
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just wondering
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Firstly, read the book. It was a lot better. Secondly, the ending of the movie completely missed the whole point the main theme of the book was trying to make. Thirdly, as other posters have said, the film would have been better if the ending was chopped off. Or at least a whole new ending had been written.
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It's been awhile since I read it, but I did reread the novelization post-ROTS, and the prologue is slightly different. I've read all the annotated sripts, the making of book, and most everything I could get my hands on, and I'm convinced that the Trade Federation stuff wasn't developed until the prequels were actually written.
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I don't think I'll ever line up for anything Star Wars related ever again.
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The sister on Even Stevens went on to be the voice of Kim Possible.
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Interesting.... but wrong from a timing perspective. Make the first 'Mutt Williams'-centric adventure in ~10 years times and have him running around the swingin' 60s, then another one a few years later in the 70s, then a few years after THAT have a 40-something Mutt off looking for the King in the 80s (maybe he finds Bruce Campbell hanging out in Texas somewhere along the way...).
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You really thing Steven frigging Spielberg wasn't "allowed" by Lucas to do it how he wanted? He's the most powerful director of our time, and he's getting pushed around by his pal Lucas? I don' think so. If you love Spielberg and you hate KOTCS, then you have some reconciling to do.
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I actually can't remember for certain but I seem to vaguely remember Temple of Doom was set before Raiders. If so, wouldn't that mean Karen Allen couldn't have been in the film as she met Indy for the first time in Raiders?
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THANKS for the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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indie movie that showed his range and depth as a quality script writer and director? I'm glad he decided to follow that impulse, rather than just continue to coast on retreads of past glory. I mean, to be fair to the guy, he could just be shoveling out something like an animated Star Wars movie or an ill-conceived Indiana Jones sequel. Good thing he's . . . oh, what?
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I suppose if there is a time and place to be either then it's here and now. You're right that the opening date in Temple of Doom puts it before Raiders. However, in Raiders it's revealed that Indy first hooked up with Marianne back at Chicago University. It caused a falling out with his professor because Marianne was the professor's daughter and because it's suggested that she was underage. So she could have been in Temple of Doom but it would have undercut the poignancy of their meeting in Raiders since in that film they haven't seen each other in a decade or so.
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My screenplay for the 5th Indiana Jones "The Mummified Penis (played by Ben Affleck as himself) of Doom" will literally blow you away. Not to give away too much re: the plot details, but in my film the goverment enlists the help of Dr. Jones to stop another national disaster, the making of the film "Pearl Harbor 2". The climax of the film would have the audience jumping out of there seats with applause as Short Round stabs Affleck in the toupee with the voodoo knife from "The Temple of Doom".
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This is the guy who killed off Darth Maul and stuck us with Count Dooku...the most unremarkable villain. Ever.
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but I should have loved it. The problem with a lot of movies these days is there seems to be a "close ennough for government work" half-assed attitude. There's also way too many filmmakers who were once considered "visionaries" that are surrounded by Yes-Men willing to tell anybody that their shit don't stink. Lucas is the Perfect example of that. I feel like the studios should hire more "No-Men" in Hollywood. Every director should have a guy hired by the studio who will look at a retarded script and say "That's pretty fucking stupid, dude. It doesn't make any sense. Are you sure you want to do that?" Maybe we'd get better movies that way. As if the studios give a shit whether we have better movies or not.
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This talkback as far, far less angry outbursts than I'd expected. Strange.
Personally... I'm just done. I just want Indy to end. Period. No spin-offs, no nothing. I enjoyed Indy 4, actually liked it better than Temple of Doom (yeah, I said it) but I'm exhausted. Just let this series go. -
Like anyone cares, Lucas!!! BWAAHHAHHAAHHAHHAAAAHHAA!!
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Lucas is going to the grocery store? How dare he! It's the last thing he needs to do. And he'll probably restock the shelves with computer-generated product
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You are right - Munich was good. And the guy who said the dialogue in Return of the Sith was terrible - you are right too. But, for all its flaws, I LIKED the way Lucas tried to engage with serious issues. Just as, for all its flaws, I like the way The Dark Knight tries to engage with serious issues. (And that's why I also like movies such as Conan The Barbarian, Starship Troopers, Robocop, Beowulf, Crouching Tiger, Heat etc etc - all blockbuster experiences, but with thought behind them.) I don't believe that a blockbuster need necessarily be dumb. If you don't have think about what you are doing, you are essentially supporting the status quo. The ultimate example of this, I think, is Top Gun - a terrifying pro-milirary propaganda film, the kind of thing Starship Troopers was trying to satirize. I believe Tom Cruise has been making amends ever since - witness his greasy turn in Lions for Lambs.
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Aug 06, 2008 10:36:28 AM CDT
MUTT was not the problem...bad script and direction was!
by fleshmachine
spielberg worst. really...worse than JP2 and 1941.
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Aug 06, 2008 10:36:44 AM CDT
MUTT was not the problem...bad script and direction was!
by fleshmachine
so weak.
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Definitely not the worst part about Crystal Skull, not by a long shot. Poor writing, and other characters (and actors like Ray Winstone, John Hurt, and Jim Broadbent were totally wasted, and they hurt to watch. I'd rather see them not return, instead of keeping Shia out. I think the big question is, if they do another one, what will they do with Karen Allen?
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Aug 06, 2008 10:37:31 AM CDT
MUTT was not the problem...bad script and direction was!
by fleshmachine
spielberg worst. really...worse than JP2 and 1941.
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And let someone who can really write turn in a good script, call Darabont up and apologise, and give it all over to Speilberg. And don't rip off the Mummy films. The Mummy films! For shame!
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Lucas pretty much admitted that Speilberg wanted to go back to a more Raiders style of film making and focus on Indiana. Lucas wanted cgi, mutt, aliens, monkeys - things that basically compromised the quality of the fourth film. It's Lucas's character and I would say he would have had final say. I'm definitely in the "blame Lucas camp" - that's not to say all of Spielebrg's films are brilliant, but if you're gonna compare Lucas with Spielberg, then Spielberg, as a film maker, wipes Lucas' ass ten times out ten
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...or somethin like that
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"...is that the Russians weren't interested in them."
Very true - however, the Nazis were, and it was the Russians who sacked Berlin. The movies can easily pursue the same religious artifacts under the premise that along with their advanced technologies, the Soviets also looted Germany of its mysterious collection of relics. -
Sick sick sick of Lucasfilm products.
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But - when films REALLY suck, as in Matrix: Reloaded - guess what happens? Audiences actually DON'T give the filmmakers their money again. People say that these sequels are a license to print money. Not so - you really can fuck them up. Look at Prince Caspian. Audiences might give the filmmakers one free pass (Spider-Man 3, anyone?) but after that even the very best brands can hit trouble. Lucas got a free pass with Episode 1 - a fascinating but genuinely bad movie. But Episode 2, for all its creaky acting, actually had an engaging story and a number of exciting action scenes. Which is why people went back for Episode 3.
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the reason Karen allen wasn't in any of the Indy sequels is apparently that Spielberg and her had non-stop rows during the making of Raiders..and he didn't want her back.
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Karen Allen did not meet Indy in Raiders. They had an established history before he walked into her saloon. rewatch it.
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I see your point. There should be more thought put into action films. They can and should make you think. But if somebody tries to tackle a serious issue with ham-fisted dialoge and wooden acting, which is what happened in ROTS, then it takes away from the overall message, don't you think?
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Indy doesn't do much in Raiders either. In the end, he's just strapped to a pole and God does all the work. When Indy confronts Belloq and the room fills with guns and all of a sudden Sallah's 50 kids come to save the day. The market fight-chase is full of silly moments excluding the famous bullet in swordsman. Also, Doom is a prequel to Raiders. All the Indy films are ment to be slightly silly, stop taking them so seriously. The biggest problem with KOTCS was the use of too much CGI.
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...was a conscious attempt to get away from the first movie. For one thing, it was written by Gloria Katz and Willard Huyck, the auteurs (ahem) behind Radioland Murders and Howard the Duck. Secondly, Lucas wanted Indy to be a James Bond type with a different girl in each movie. I'm guessing that the reason they made it a prequel is because it was obvious from Kasdan's script that Indy settled down with Marion.
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Saving Private Ryan features brilliant action sequences. So what? So does Commando. As a grown-up war film, SPR is seriously lacking in thought. Absolutely not the classic it seemed to be at the time. You want your ass kicked by a war film? Watch Cross of Iron again.
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Exactly. Temple Of Doom was mostly made up of set pieces that didn't make it into Raiders. Lucas and Spielberg more or less admitted that they make it up as they go along.
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ouch
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You're right, you're right. The dialogue, all the non-action writing in fact, the acting... they're just weird in those films, aren't they? A few people get away with it (Iain McDiarmid?) but McGregor and others just seem helpless. But I still enjoyed it (on the big screen it LOOKED amazing, the images were so powerful) and I think I'd prefer an honourable failure like that over a scarily efficient yet 'wrong' film like, say, Black Hawk Down. And at least it didn't get preachy.
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...and not to the nostalgia. Let Harrison Ford act like Harrison Ford. This last film seemed just a little "forced" for the most part. Let him get involved in a journey that he can believe in. Knowing Spielberg and Lucas, however, I fear that they might want to produce a film in which they make the American government out to be the "bad" guys.
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thanks for the links. I've read the bouzerau annotations before, and like I said I did reread the novelizations a couple years ago. But the hardcover version of the Making Of book has some of Lucas' notes about possible sequels, and it's clear that the "six-movie cycle" was not nearly as planned out as Lucas claims. For one thing, it's not even clear that Anakin was Darth Vader until Empire was in the screenplay stage.
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thanks for the links. I've read the bouzerau annotations before, and like I said I did reread the novelizations a couple years ago. But the hardcover version of the Making Of book has some of Lucas' notes about possible sequels, and it's clear that the "six-movie cycle" was not nearly as planned out as Lucas claims. For one thing, it's not even clear that Anakin was Darth Vader until Empire was in the screenplay stage.
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Shia was great in Indy 4, but I think they've already told the character's story. Much like Short Round or Henry Sr., he doesn't really need to return. They should just say he decided to return to school- especially now that he no longer seems to have a chip on his shoulder. I think people overreacted to Lucas' earlier comments. Both he and Spielberg have always said, "Harrison Ford IS Indiana Jones."
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Aug 06, 2008 10:53:35 AM CDT
First we need an awesome Darabont script to screw up...
by yotzvonfrelnik
I'm sorry, I've held the flame for Lucas all this time, even through the recent Star Wars films, but he doesn't seem to know when to lay off and let things be as cool as they already are. I think I'm about done believing the way I used to. If the next movie kicks ass, then I'll feel better.
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I'm not sure this is what you're saying, but the main problem with the prequels is that they lack the pacing of the originals. In the OT, things happened so fast that there was never time to stop and consider how silly everything was. In the prequels (especially AOTC) there were times where the plot slowed down enough for people to consider that this was less profound than they thought. All of them needed the Flash Gordon pacing.
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That theme was made a year earlier with another iconic action figure..Live Free Or Die Hard.
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I'm not sure this is what you're saying, but the main problem with the prequels is that they lack the pacing of the originals. In the OT, things happened so fast that there was never time to stop and consider how silly everything was. In the prequels (especially AOTC) there were times where the plot slowed down enough for people to consider that this was less profound than they thought. All of them needed the Flash Gordon pacing.
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"Mutt Williams and the Search for Elvis"
C'mon guys you gotta give him some credit for having a sense of humor about all the speculation. That's the problem with all of the talkbacker haters--you take everything so damn seriously. -
1) Make Indy more of a human being and less of a super-hero. He's old. He can't crash on his back on the hood of a speeding truck without killing himself. Don't try to ignore the fact he's old, use it as a plot device. 2) No Shia. Mutt William = Jar Jar Binks. 3) Less CGI. 4) Make it religious, not extra-terrestrial. 5) Make Indy an unethical asswipe, like he really was in the first two films. As it's already been said, God saved the day in Raiders, not Indy. That's what made the climax so darned INTERESTING, and it would really be a nice change-of-pace for a mainstream 21st century action movie to point out that the "hero" is actually pretty insignificant, God actually exists, and it's only thanks to God's divine intervention that the hero's stil alive. Whether you believe in that sorta thing or not, it make's Indy a more interesting character, and is just as believable a plot device as "Crystal Skulls" are .
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That would have actually been cool. I thought the only reason they didn't was because of budget constraints. (I take it you read the Making Of book; Ron Cobb is the unsung hero of both Indy and the original Star Wars).
BTW sorry about the multiple posts. -
Just fucking weird!!! He does however still have much bigger muscles than Shia
Can Ridley Scott direct the next Indy???? Please????? -
. . . some really off-the-way country, like Norway! Yeah! Like, a power struggle in Norway's secretive aristocracy for ancient artifacts originally forged by Odin himself! The "good guys" want the power to protect the west from the Soviets. The "bad guys" want the power to join with, and maybe even subvert, the Soviets! Little do they know that they are being subtely infuenced by Loki!!! Man, I should move to Hollywood and make a forture coming up with stupid ideas like this one...
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It ends in the 1970s after Indy has found some artifact or something and is enjoying retirement with Marion in Hawaii. They come across two bearded guys building a sandcastle talking about making a movie. Indy comes up to them and says "have I got a story for you..."
Yeah, it's corny. So what. -
I don't get why people think he was widely disliked. Shia is a great actor and he played it very cool. I guess people just gotta hate everything these days.
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...where Indiana Jones uncovers the secrets of lost continent of Atlantis...the cause of the Bermuda Triangle effect...while also finding some Nazi soldiers hiding in Argentina. Think that this would be a worthwhile adventure?
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the 0.2% guy above? he's a dumbass.
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spurned by indy, he kills mutt - indy then travels to china and does some potc shit.
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That might not be a bad thing in this day and age *ZING*
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...(and anyone else who may have mentioned it) I never payed enough attention to realize that "Doom" took place before "Raiders"; I'm guessing that the population at large has no idea either.
On the Shia topic, I had no prob with Mutt as a whole. But basing a feature around him? Hmmmm... Also, did it disappoint anyone else off that his damn switchblade skills were so highlighted, and then he never used 'em for anything cool? Man, I feel like I got told some long-ass joke and never got to hear a punchline... -
I'd rather watch a Mutt Williams and the Search for Elvis than another Indiana Jones film, I though Harrison was the weak link in this one for me. OR George why don't you make something NEW since you bitch endlessly about Star Wars & Indy Jones and don't really give a crap about it anymore anyway, let's see these small films you've talked about in the past, give us something new, come on dude, stop beating a dead horse!
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Should have been a wookie or some shit...
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It was a commercial/PSA for deforestation. Ford has always been big on environmental causes.
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He really is a rebel without a cause. Deny it.
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DOOM has no need of this "Mutt." Lucas, you are commanded to create the film, "Latveria Jones and the Search for the Power Cosmic!"
So decrees DOOM! -
Although "Mutt Jones And The..........." as a title sounds lame.
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Because the fan backlash against the film couldn't possibly be your fault...
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i think yer points were pretty f-ing accurate. making Indy the 'unethical' guy he was in the beginning is an excellent idea. in those films he's more of an anti-hero, and it's perfect. so my only question is: how the hell do we get lucas off these projects? the guy is literally out of control.
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but "about" deforestation.
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Instead of a beach in Hawaii, Indy is giving his "Last Lecture" at an unnamed university in Southern Caifornia in the late 1960s. There are two bearded film students in the front row, and their eyes light up as he tells the tale...
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A Joker without a cause.
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Steven Spielberg is not called a hack for producing a terrible movie when he has all the power to do anything he wanted to do...
him and lucas have no excuses. the film should have been a beautiful feast for the eyes and soul. they lied and said it was a film for the fans of the indy series. if that was true. it would have been nuanced and hit every note.
i don't get it...
budget is not issue and creative control is no issue with the beards yet they have produced that trash.
i find it ironic that the more freedom directors get. the worse films they produce.
so much for "vison". everyone needs a system of checks and balances. even spielberg.
spielberg gets all the credit in the world for great films, but people give him a pass on crapfests like crystal skull and war of the worlds. they want to put "skull" sucking all on lucas.
the beards been brilliant and insanely creative film makers before, but in my eyes they can be just as hacky as the rat, bay and that arrogant idiot mcG.
all of those guys everyone calls hacks now...had a vision and creativity when they had less control.
there is no way on earth mummy 3 should have been better than an indy film...NONE!!! but it was...and that is pathetic. -
Interestingly, there were several books published in the 19th century that linked "Atlantis" with the idea of a "superior Aryan race." This would be a great link between the remnants of the Nazis, the Soviets and the quest for Atlantis! Of course, the US would gather ol' Indiana Jones to find out just where the Soviets (and, to their surprise) the Nazi's, are headed. What a surprise to find that they are searching for a lost continent that holds immeasurable power...that could be used to dominate the world.The Soviets would want the power and to find a glorious socialist kingdom. The Nazi remnants want to uncover the true "Aryan" superculture (which could merely be Native Americans -- like Mayans -- who paint themselves white). And the United States will be alarmed because of the Soviet efforts in the Western Hemisphere (such as Cuba and Mexico). It all lines up with a few elements from known history...along with some mythical elements too. This could make a great topic for an Indy movie!
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The two bearded film students aren't attending the lecture - they're the audio-visual nerds running the slideshow!!! They could swipe a few of the slides "for later use"!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Ok, I'm done now...
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is he was one of the only good things about Indy 4. I'm not a fan of how Shia has been handling his personal life (that car accident and his drinking is immature to the max) but he's a decent actor. Not someone worthy of ridicule on a talent level.
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90's & 00's Lucas made those movies worse and created terrible sequels. For me, there were 3 1/2 Star Wars movies (Sith was mostly awesome) and 3 Indy movies. The rest is some kind of idiotic fan-fiction CGI induced bullshit.
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Give the Thrawn Trilogy the Clone Wars treatment! Bring the original actors back to do the voice work! Imagine the money to be made from the hordes who crave Ford, Hammil and Fisher to reprise their roles!!! Just don't do all that Dark Horse "cloned Emperor" shite. That was just silly.
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You KNOW you'd pay extra to see Harrison Ford and Bruce Campbell in the same movie. ADMIT IT!!!
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I think that an interesting way to explain it would be that NEITHER the Soviets nor the Nazis knew that the other party was involved -or- that the Nazis were infinitely more evil than the Soviets...and were simply using them as a front to obtain the power and "superior race" elements of the lost continent. Interestingly, Spielberg could tie this film with CLOSE ENCOUNTERS in the sense that he could talk about the loss of Flight 19 (et al) over the Bermuda Triangle.
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So far, every indication is that Lucas is a egomaniac who wants total creative control and for everyone to just go along with all his ideas, but Spielberg and Ford are not buying it. In fact, from the item posted a couple weeks ago, Lucas was openly whining that he could not have thingshis way.
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I say Shitey should be thrown in jail for drink driving, even if the accident wasn't his fault.
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Indy IV was fun in parts. It certainly wasn't any worse than Journey to the Center of the Earth or Mummy 3.
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At least the fridge can act.
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The Crystal Skull was a major disappointment. I WILL NOT go see the next one. I'm officially done with George Lucas.
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Did you see Wanted?
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Indiana Jones V: The Reckoning
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I got the making of books from the library.
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Because it humanized the murder squad.
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In the Indy Journals it looks like Short Round became a treasure hunter in his own right. Maybe he has become brainwashed by the Red Chinese and crosses paths with Indy and Mutt?
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You might be right about Lucas nixing the robotic arm. The making of book doesn't make it clear. But the main idea Lucas had was that the movie style should reflect the era in which it takes place, hence the B-movie style.
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He just drove through crowded marketplaces without any regard for the lives he endangered. But I still love that kid.
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The reason I had it in Hawaii in the late 70s is that according to the official mythology Lucas and Spielberg developed Indy while vacationing in Hawaii immediately after the release of Star Wars and prior to the release of Close Encounters.
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Is Wanted any good?
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but innane and just plain fucking stupid is not. And there is more that is Stupid in Indy 4 than there is "Fun and Goofy". Monkey Armies? "Uh oh" prairie dogs? Joyless, flat, boring villains? And a script not worthy of a Hanna Barberra cartoon much less 20yrs of development by men who once were Gods in Hollywood.
Hell I wish it WERE FUN AND GOOFY..then I wouldn't feel so cheated. -
I pay to see Ford play Indy not anyone else. They should drop Shia & Allen. There's no need for them anymore. Maybe cameo's at best. I would rather Connery come back from the dead.
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as comparisons of quality is a pretty weak argument.
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1)has read the Indy novels that were written to bridge the gaps between Young Indy and the movies? i read one (Philosopher's Stone) that was good, another (White Witch) not so much.
2) thought the Zahn novels were overrated tripe? -
Indy 4 not any worse than Mummy 3...you are correct. But it wasn't any better either. And that sir just doesn't cut it when you consider the people involved.
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Aug 06, 2008 11:51:37 AM CDT
So, is INDY 5 one of those smaller "art films", George?
by mr. nice gaius
Seriously. What the hell are you doing to your career?
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The reason I brought up Wanted was because Anchorite called Indy IV the worst movie he's seen this summer. Wanted was... strange. From a lizard brain, purely sensation-based perspective, it was awesome, but from any rational measure it was ridiculous.
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If he does use Shia in the new movies WHat's he gonna call them?Coz Mutt Williams aint no substitute for Indiana Jones!?
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Even 9 years later, Lucas bashing never gets old.
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He was horrible and having Mutt killed off would set tings straight. Russians come threaten Jones to do something by kidnapping Mutt. Then they kill Mutt and Indy goes on a Soviet slaughter spree. That's what Indy 5 should be.
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When the oil runs out, the Amish will have the last laugh.
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That only shows how far the bar was lowered
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Detective John Book and amish widow consummate their love by churning Rachel's butter in a haystack
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Aug 06, 2008 12:08:15 PM CDT
Someone show Shia that dissapearing pencil trick
by annie the pod racer
And then the new trick.....
The Emergence of Short Round!!!! -
That was a sweet movie.
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I'm spittin coffee man!!!!
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and there was no shia...
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I'm still laughing, dude. And I keep hearing the sound of butter churning ...
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I mean at what point do you put these movie series to rest? It is nothing personal on George Lucas, but it comes a time when every TV Show or Movie Series just calls it quits, cause it really doesn't have anything original to say. Indy V, The Clone Wars, BORRRRINGGGG!
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It wasn't the style of filmmaking in so much as what the film was an homage to. Spielberg wanted to do more 30s serial-type material, Lucas wanted to bring the 50s sci-fi element. The difference of opinion had little or nothing to do with CGI, Mutt or monkeys.
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As long as they keep that going in the new one and greatly improve the script and story it should be a return to form for Spielberg & Co...
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then let it be REMO WILLIAMS: THE ADVENTURE CONTINUES. If Fred Ward donesn't want the gig, let Ray Stevenson take over.
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"Indy IV" made $300 million+ domestic and $450 million foreign. It'll be No. 2 for the year behind only the phenomenon that is "The Dark Knight." Any sane person would say: That's a lot of people who care!
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with Indy grabbing his hat off of Shia is that there won't be any Shia Jones movies.
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as of today, INDY 5 is the year's biggest grossing film worldwide by some margin (tho I accept that THE DARK KNIGHT will overtake it) -see here: http://www.boxofficeguru.com/ intl.htm - there's no way that there won't be another Indy movie.
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And I thought MY screenplay ideas were bad!
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Dammit
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and shit, hold Connery at gunpoint until he agrees to do it, put Indy IV out of continuity, and make a direct sequel to last Crusade. Indy and father going out to find the lost city of Atlantis or something. Hell, even throw in Marion but don't make her a tool this time.
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If you didnt like the monkey tarzan scene its cuz you have no knowledge of the cheezy 50s B movies that Speilberg was paying homage to. Keep Shia in the next movie but keep the part minimal
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Aug 06, 2008 12:34:42 PM CDT
ANCHORITE - I RECOMMEND EARTH BALANCE BUTTERY SPREAD
by bringingsexyback
It's high in Omega 3 oils and tastes just like butta.
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Seriously, that movie would have been much better without the ending from X-FILES: FIGHT THE FUTURE.
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I wish Lucas would just stop talking about a fifth one - and people would stop asking about it.
As I recall, Crystal Skull had "Indiana Jones" in the title. And yet about one hour into the movie, the role of the hero the series is named after merely became a shadow of its former self. That's when the script finally changed into a cheap Indy-copy lacking the thrills, the sense of adventure, the swashbuckling hero and the inspired settings that made the previous three films so outstanding.
Shia is a talented actor and his performance in Skull one of the best things in the movie. But the very inclusion of his character was one of the many things that doomed this project. They should just stop it. They had a great script and decided not to shoot it and go with a weaker version of Indy instead. Lucas may have been the decisive factor in that situation but both Spielberg and Ford went along.
I mean ...you'd think the person portraying Indy would have a thing or two to say about the lousy characterization/retirement of Indy in the last act... and those wooden lines of dialogue. They better never get around to doing a fifth one. And if they do they should start by inventing some thrilling set pieces that put Indy in danger and the audience on the edge of their seat instead of the goddamn "McGuffin" ... As I understand it that's how it all started: with the image of a man jumping from his horse to a truck, with visions of a rolling boulder and a spike chamber, a chase in a mine car and a flawed and humanized hero who got himself neck deep into trouble and by luck would find a bloodcurdling way out. (That's why I like the doomtown sequence and "you don't know him Boris" must be one of the best lines and moments of KOTCS.) -
Aug 06, 2008 12:39:39 PM CDT
How about Lucas stops fucking up his own franchises?????????????
by crackerfarmboy
Has he ever considered that little concept?
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Given the number of screens this thing opened on, and the NAMES associated with it it couldn't help but do 300M. The fact that it ONLY did 300M tells me everyone saw it ONCE..no repeat business. A film like Indy 4,with not only a built in audience but a film DESIGNED to appeal to the largest possible Demographic should have done better. I'd say that Indy 4 doing anything less than 500M Domestic, while not a flop, certainly had to be a mild disappointment to the studio. And I bet you Hasbro, or whomever had the Lic. agreement is already looking for a way out.
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You Klingon bastards, you killed my son.
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http://tinyurl.com/6hwypl
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Some people have a natural, positive vibe that just makes you feel at ease. You just feel good about them like an old warm blanket. People like Jimmy Stewart come to mind. Shia's sort of the opposite of that. He's a good actor who delivers a solid performance and he seems like a good/decent enough guy. But there's some sort of negative vibe that I get after I've seen him in a role. It's not a strong emotion like hate or anything immediately obvious. But there's something about him or his performance that just sort of leaves a negative impression. Like a mild, lingering irritation. I wish I knew what it was. It'd be nice if he could get rid of it. I think he deserves better. Having said that, he didn't ruin Indy 4. His character shouldn't have been in the film but his acting was fine. The story and screenplay were just a complete mess.
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that link was funny and oh so acurate. :P
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You'd think the stereotype of the angry nerd posting online was now well-known enough that people would try to avoid it. I sometimes think this site should be called Ain't_it_a_stunning_lack_of_self_awareness.com.
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Interesting you should say that. I didn't actually form the same thought, but I knew something was off, and I think you nailed it. I thought he was fine while I was watching the movie, but for whatever reason, it doesn't sit right in retrospect.
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Indy 4 was ruined by 3 scripts turned into one movie. Stupid CGI where it needn't have been, CRIMINALLY bad acting by Ray Winstone, Karen Allen and John Hurt. Shia had charisma, good chemistry with Harrison. If they do an Indy 5, just have a decent adventure and don't listen to Lucas.
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I agree with GL saying that it was too many egos fighting over the script. GL should just check his ego and come up with the idea and give it to a good screenwriter. Maybe bring back Kasdan? Not sure of his recent track record. Speilberg should have followed his instincts and gone more practical, less CGI and keep it more in tone with what came before. I had problems with Indy 4, but there were some nice moments there. And I thought Harrison Ford did a fine job. It was good to see him back. Even if he was a grumpy old man at times. But, like he said, none of us are getting younger.
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wins. That is all.
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UFO's and a 20-something year delay. That's all I've seen Lucas do with the Indy franchise as of late. Both bad decisions. Mr. Lucas, kindly restrict yourself to fucking the shit out of the corpse that is the Star Wars Saga. Leave Dr. Jones in the hands of a more capable filmmaker. (Yes, I'm a Spielberg apologist. At least he hasn't committed the cinematic genocide Lucas has.)
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and Lucas, and Speilberg. And Marion. Just keep Ford.
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nuked the fridge
He is this franchise Jar Jar Binks. -
But let's cast Ryan Gosling as the new adventurer, hire good writers, and get a new director. The franchise could take off I tell you!
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Go to Argentina and look for Hitler, find him and kill him. There you go George! Problem solved. Now get to work.
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No way!
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Aug 06, 2008 2:05:40 PM CDT
Chalk me up as another Boof isnt the problem
by judge dredds fresh undies
Lucas bashing may be a cliche now but thats because its fucking deserved. KOTCS is overflowing with Lucas's grubby paw prints. If Spielberg had been left to his own devices I still don't think it would have been a great film but it sure would have been better than what we ended up with. I did enjoy the film and that's because Lucas didn't have 100 percent control.
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Indy 4 = Prequels
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Sorry just wanted to make a Seinfeld reference. :p
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Since we already saw he could be a convincing James Dean, he could have easily been Mutt. Shia wasn't terrible, but every role he is a variation of his "Even Stevens" character. Also, Franco is due a crack at being a major franchise character/headliner. And he thankfully lacks the douchebag traits of his peers who get drunk and roll their cars over and injure themselves in the middle of filming a 2009 Summer tentpole. Talk about responsibility.
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... Are we so desperate?
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Shia was the least of my problems w/ Crystal Skull...I expected far worse. The real problem was the script, and the fact that Speilberg apparently modeled the cinematography on the Tom Raider Movies.
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Aug 06, 2008 2:19:18 PM CDT
So the closest Lucas can come to an orignal idea is a spinoff?
by drewlicious
That's about as frustrating as James Cameron taking a decade off...but at least his future projects are new.
As for Shia, he did fine despite being miscast. I don't know if I'd be too thrilled about this movie. -
Where did that come from? The most I've heard about him is that he gets caught doing what a lot of people his age do.
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Speaking otherwise will result in your apprehension by the Imperial Guard. And I think Lucas over anyone else has the power to do what he wants, when he wants. He was the backbone of this franchise and he IS the backbone of this franchise. It's just like being a musician... people always question entitlement. Is the musician entitled to 'cater to public desires' or to 'do what he wants'? In Hollywood it translates to 'do I want to make money' or 'do I risk a specific vision out of personal desires', respectively. Shia LeBeef? That sounds like a little of both worlds if you ask me... and anyways he's a promising 'stock' that has already proven dividends for the Lucas/Spielberg machine. Think like a producer and you'll see where these people are coming from... but I will wholeheartedly agree from a personal standpoint and as a fan - yay to Shia Lite and NAY TO SHIA HEAVY [aka helming an INDY 5].
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....but Mutt Williams wasn't the only problem with Indy 5...George Lucas was the real problem. If they just allowed the script written by Darabont (Spielberg said it was the best written since Raiders, Lucas said it was shit and wanted some goofy Mutt Williams garbage instead) it would have been much better.
To me there was only an Indy trilogy, nothing more. -
Looks like he's still feasting on the cash cow.
What happened to those little movies he promised he'd make after he got done with more raping of Star Wars.
Oh hang, on, I guess there's no money in those, plus no-one will see them.
Ok, so we get a half-assed new Clone Wars cartoon, that looks inferior to most computer games graphics and a 5th Indy where ol' fat neck need to think up something for Indy and co to chase ...please !!!
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Darabont's draft wasn't any better
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By the time this gets made the timeline should be about right.
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Indy 4 didn't make nearly as much money as any of the prequels so that'd be another of Lucas' small movies. Indy 5 will make less. See? He's making good on his word.
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Yippee! "Let's try swinging, that's a good trick!"
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Definitely not worthy of Indy 5. I'm not surprised Lucas thought of it though, he has lost his mind in the last 20+ years.
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It wasn't? Ah, well still they shouldn't have made an Indy IV. Why ruin a good thing???? To me Indiana Jones ended when he rided off into the sunset with Senior.
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I don't believe Spielberg to have as much cinematic blood on his hands as Lucas - he has at least made some good films in the last 15 - 20 years. But Spielberg has to shoulder at least a big a portion of the blame for Crystal Skull as Lucas. He agreed to do it, and it was the most half-arsed ineptly directed film of his career. Yes, if it came to a firing squad, Lucas gets the first and fatal bullet, but Spielberg at least deserves a flesh wound.
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Recast as the now older Short Round. Man that would be the most epic thing ever, I would automatically forgive Lucas (Nah just kidding, he's an asshole, never forgive him for ruining my childhood favorites). But still that would be sweet.
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Shia is Speilberg's binkie. Speilberg doesn't do a movie now unless Shia is attached. Now that Lucas is dissing Speilberg's little pet, Lucas is dead to him.
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...about up to the point where Indy and Mutt are captured upon leaving the burial chamber. But after that, well, when they release Indy's handcuffs and he straightaway busts Mac in the nose, that's virtually the last moment of old-school Indiana Jones coolness in the flick. Everything from Marion's introduction onward just felt awkward somehow. It didn't 'suck', it didn't make me wanna curse Lucas or Spielberg, but it did make me feel that it's time to move on. Funny thing is, Spielberg did make a great fourth Indiana Jones film, that contained all the excitement and adrenalin of the original movies - it's called Minority Report.
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spot on, the film fell apart the moment Karen Allen walked onscreen. The jungle busines didn't work at all. I kinda liked the ending (apart from the goofy alien sticking his face into the camera) but there's a good half hour of sub par action in the flick.
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A man instead of a boy. That guy who plays Sawyer on Lost would've kicked ass as Indy's son. There must be other who could've too. God knows Indy's old enough to have a man play his son!
Maybe they could still do that. The shock in the 5th one could be that in all those years of adventuring, Indy had fathered ANOTHER son. One with bays and a REAL swaggering attitude.
Outside of the quest the ending could have Indy saying to Mutt "Son, you have to be the man your grandfather was. Study. (Insert other son's decent name here), has to be the one to carry this.....(put's hat in the hands of other son)".
Let me know what you think????? -
Excuse my typo above I meant to say the new son would have "balls". Sorry.
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Seriously.It's like Shia got some of the geeky extras from his new movie and they're all sitting around posting on talkback trying to ressurect the "Mutt Williams" franchise.
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That said, it wasn't Shia's fault. If you can stand to rewatch it again (I don't), he actually brought more energy and acting ability than the "I just woke up ... who am I?" Harrison Ford, "I'm glad I'm in a movie again! How do you not overact?" Karen Allen, and "I'm going to make the best out of this crappy script/story ... I know Lucus sucks, but what happened to Spielberg?" Cate Blanchett. I'm not the biggest Shia fan either, but he's not a bad actor, nor is he annoying. With a much better story and script, plus a more inspired & demanding director, less CGI, and Lucus as idea guy and NOT story guy, Indy 4 could've been good. Spielberg obviously has talent but he didn't push his actors at all. Harrison DID NOT seem like Indy AT ALL. Very disappointed ... he was one of my fav actors of all time. I guess that is what happens when you don't act for a while. And is it me, or at no point did Indy look like he was in danger? Must've been the damn CGI. The ONLY scene that was good was the diner/motorcycle one near the beginning of the movie ... that was funny, cool, and felt like Indy.
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Aug 06, 2008 5:07:38 PM CDT
BATMAN BEGINS and TDK proved that you can undo a bad thing...
by sapno_krei
...and that is why I hold out hope that Lucas can pull it together and do right by the Indy franchise with a fifth movie (not that I hated Indy IV, btw). Come on, George. Get some of the Tom Stoppard, Larry Kasdan writing action back in the mix and make everybody happy.
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Harrison's acting was so stiff and unmotivated. Simply putting on the Indy garb is not enough. Connery's character (though old) was toe to toe with his son every step of the way in Crusade. Old Indy seemed so uncharismatic and tired ... that's why it seemed so odd when suddenly he would be swinging around on his whip. I know Harrison is older, but not once did I see that signature sly and clever smile that the young Indy had whenever he was in a scrap. Maybe Harrison is just too old to do these movies anymore. Oh well, I'll still treasure the original trilogy.
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makes me ache.
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The sooner GL passes on the better, then someone with talent can take over and helm the franchises he created and get them back on track.GL burned out years ago.
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He created some of the greatest movies of all time (Star Wars IV-VI, Indy trilogy), and founded his ILM company which revolutionized the industry. Lucus was a Movie God ... though A LOT of the movie success came from the directors/writers that he had, but forget them right??? Then he stopped making movies for a really really long time ... kinda like Cameron after Titanic. He lost his creative mojo, grew a huge ego, CGI effects and marketing toys became supreme, and made Jar Jar and the substandard SW 1-3. Now Lucus became a bad joke. Now he is seemingly blaming Spielberg for his latest debacle called Indy 4 in a recent article. The movie going audience owes a lot of thanks for this guy, but it's sad to see how far he has fallen.
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Bring back Shorty!
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You posh kids have way too much fancy brand new lego! You're the reason terrorists hate us!
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And hold onto your potatoes!
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Aug 06, 2008 6:16:55 PM CDT
Frank Darabont`s script was actually a lot worse if you read it
by sachman
Indy 4 was a mixed bag for myself, thou I feel you guys should stop bashing Shia, His character was ok it was the Aliens and CGI monkeys that was the bullshit. You guy quite whinning about how great the Frank Darabont just coz he does some good movies these days, the FACT is Frank Darabont`s script was called Indiana Jone and the saucers men from mars and it was about 80% of the same bull shit you saw in the film anyway minus Shia but with lots off Marrion and more ET phone home. I`d personally love for Lucas and the berg to give the fans a real present and do FATE OF ATLANTIS the Game/ Comic book that would be awsome as an Indy movie instalment. hence going back and having no Shia but hey who knows, personally I`d like Lucas to go make a new movie rather than rehashing out his glory days, but then we fans did want em Star Wars and we got em so quit bitching coz things could off been a lot worse
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... does not include Indy 2 or 3 nor ROTJ
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You're hungry with words, but you have to be hungrey for film to become the man you need to be. Don't forget you're on a movie set. Use that knowlage! None of that is real. But if you can make it real if you can spread Lucas' legs.
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Gloria Katz and Willard Hyuck! It can't be as bad as KOTCS.
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The only reason why Batman Begins and TDK (to a greater extent) worked was because Christopher Nolan is a great director AND he isn't Schumacher.
Unless somebody else makes a new Star Wars or Indy, well then its still going to be same old shit Lucas. Which is why you can't compare it to the Batman reboot. -
There's an idea for you, Lucas and it's based on a real story!
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Remember Spielberg's old boy-toy? His name was Haley Joel-Osment, Spielberg liked him alot. A few years later he was caught for drunk driving......deja vu?
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I don't think I could take a film called MUTT WILLIAMS and the (Witty MacGuffin inserted here) seriously. It's a stupid name. I know it's a play on Indiana being named after the dog (mutt) and Williams is just as common as Jones, but thats exactly how it comes off. A poor mans attempt at ripping off something greater. By it's own creator. Sigh.
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I wonder if that will make for some continuity problems for Transformers 2?
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Lucas talked about how he wanted to move the franchise forward... and that Steven wanted to keep it where it is. sounds like Lucas is having second thoughts. he should just re consider making a fifth movie all together.
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Bay has already said that the accident will be incorporated into the "script."
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If we went back in the Delorean to 1996, how many of us here would still say Lucas is God? I mean before the Special Editions, the man could do no wrong, as many let it off the hook for the Ewoks. But now the man is like an athlete who hung on too long, it is tainting his career because when you think if his achievements like The Star Wars Trilogy, you can't help but think about Jar Jar and the Prequels. You think about Raiders, but you also think of Indy IV and how worthless that was. The man should have came back from hibernation in the 90's and just did something different and put Star Wars and Indy to rest. I think alot of people wouldn't really care if he was doing original stuff, and if it wasn't good, it wouldn't have tainted the groundbreaking stuff like Star Wars & Raiders.
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It's funny how riled up everyone got over a sarcastic remark he made.
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I was suprised that I liked him in the film and would be fine to see him and Dr. Jones run about and stumble upon action scenes again. But I don't know that I would ever want to pay to see a movie that starts with "Mutt Williams".
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Aug 06, 2008 9:30:41 PM CDT
Didn't Shia just crash a car with Lucas' daughter in it?
by themanwhojaped
Didn't Shia just crash a car with Lucas' daughter in it? Or he was dating her or something?
Surely that must be connected. Lucas doesn't want Shia boning his daughter, and endangering her life, thus he refuses to cast him in his movies. -
TDK could maybe beat it in a couple weeks, but it looks like Indy IV is the 2008 champ unless Bats scoops up another $150 million. Hey it actually did make more money than one of the prequels (AOTC), which I guess isnt saying much.
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George, for Petes sake man, let it go. Come up with a new story or something. Go with Mutt Williams, I dont care. Just let Indy RIP and never make another. Mutt Williams, by the way, is a dumb character and Shia is not exactly the most manly kid.
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1.the weird vine swinging, it was...
2. the skull opens all doors, and it takes them about 2/3 of the movie to realize its alien
3. when the benevelont aliens who taught the indians to farm ask the Russian for her wish, and she wishes to know everything, and they kill her for no reason. I still dont understand how she died. She didnt even "choose poorly" -
BRING ON A JAR JAR BINKS SOLO SPIN OFF SOLO MOVIE!!!
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and fuck poeticwarriorIV. What queef!PWNED!!
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I don't hate him like some of the people here, but I don't particularly like him, either.
I also read an interview with him where he confessed to crapping his pants until he was 12 years old (I'm not joking), and I just can't look at him without thinking "pantload" since then. -
Keep worshiping Lucas, now I know how he still manages to make so much money off of his shitty fucking stretched thin franchise.
Retards like you. Thanks for pointing out the origin of the "Mutt" name, I never thought I would be able to figure it out myself. Indy IV, wow! That was truly an intelligent film. -
and a hundred more fucking star wars spin offs, i couldnt give 2 fucks, i fucking love it, i fucking bathe in it, it's my life juice all you haters must love 2 hate god bless ya but who gives to fuck run these fuckers into the ground it dont matter anyways i love smelly cooch
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Drop it already, Lucass, you need to retire.
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In my opinion, the Indy movies have always been unrealistic and have been pushed for an "over the top" universe. Exactly what is wrong with this "monkey king scene", or this "nuke the fridge" scnene. When i first saw these things on screen, i it didn't really distract me from the films. I have always thought of the Indy franchices as being over the top, but still a fun franchise. And this "mutt character is simply the a creation that could only stem from lucas or spielberg. look at star wars, it has characters that were developed strictly for family entertainment!!! Jar Jar (whom i hate), even c3po, or r2d2, are charactgers srtictly for a broader audiance. ok i am gonna stop now. i am really drunk. Wait who am i trying to kid, i did not really like the new indy anyway. love the old ones though. uglgg
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i am gonna leave the forum now
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THE Dark KnighT Rules
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gets his shits and giggles by screwing with the heads of geeks like us.
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Damn... you are right! Excalibur would actually be a great McGuffin. Good call.
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Why the alien/dimensional being came alive at the end of IJ4? I left scratching my head over that when I left the theatre.
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Just a problem with the script, producing, and directing.
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was actually the third best. I just saw Temple of Doom again and, uh, well it was more than a little stupid and a bit insulting to Indian culture. There may have been flaws in the latest Indy but I liked the "idea" behind it and how it connected with Last Crusade.
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All answers to such questions are better left for discussion AFTER a few drinks. Then, they become a bit more plausible. Maybe it had to awake to give the reward for its stolen head? Maybe it was pissed and decided it couldn't trust humans anymore? The real question for me is, Why did it let a conquistador steal one of its heads in the first place?
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It could be a prequel to "Kingdumb of the Crystal Skullphuckers" because we know how great Lucas is at making prequels.
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Take Jar Jar out of Episode 1 and you still have much improved, but still quite shitty movie.
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is the new Indiana Jones. And if he doesn't want to be in a movie, go with Massachussetts Brown or South Dakota Johnson, Utah McGillicutty or Mississippi Green.
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California Smith and the Flaming Bird Turd
Idaho McIntyre and the Bureau of Motor Vehicles
Arkansas Rutkowski and the Harrowing Colonoscopy -
People in Indy 4. I know he was going for a whole "Wild One" vibe but that worked for Brando and even Lee Marvin. Shia is neither. He looked like one of Elton John's Boy Toys.
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and takes delight in destroying that which made him what he is, and the people who loved him.
It all stems from his divorce...Marica destroyed his world and left him utterly empty. Lucas blames this martial breakup on the movies, and the fame and wealth they brought. Over time his heart filled with a deep, dark malice towards these creations and also against the people who loved, and lifted them, above simple entertainment. He now views these films, and the fans, as the entire reason for his life, for all its wealth and endless opportunity, being essentially a lonely, isolated, and dark place. This is why the withdraw from Hollywood to Marin, the isolated nature of his studios and dealings, and his hermit like personality....more importantly it is why he now seeks alienate the fans, destroy their love, and by doing so hope to find rest for his now pitch black soul. -
like Jabba the Hutt or the God Emperor worm of Dune everyday. You figure with a billion dollars the guy could fix his neck...
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...but when he's dared to pass on the reigns to others (e.g. the original Clone Wars animated series), the results have been pretty darned good. Even ROTS had uncredited input from writer Tom Stoppard and ole Spielberg, and that movie turned out to be the best of the prequels.
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Maybe they could CGI Mutt Williams
into a giant walky-talky for Indy 4 when it comes out on DVD. -
You know, the best Star Wars movie in existance. It wasn't directed by him or written by him.
LOL no wonder it was so good.
George Lucas should just hand over the Star Wars series to somebody else more talented, and let them make ONE original movie out of it and call it quits. Something like KOTOR the movie. -
Shia is the flavor of the moment.
J. Gordon Levitt is a much better actor than Shia and you dont seem him getting all the acolades.
No more Indy please. -
Aug 07, 2008 3:25:29 PM CDT
GL, you need to accept your role as the Idea Man, and learn to b
by sapno_krei
It seems like you can't get over your shortcomings.
You're *not* a great director, George. But you are the visionary behind some of our most beloved movies, and it's about time you accepted that we appreciate that.
Now, just step away and let others make great things with the toys you've put out there for them. -
Yeah, I mentioned Excalibur in another talkback. Basically said that Indy 4 audiences wanted an Indiana Jones movie to end with
INDY BEHEADS HITLER WITH EXCALIBUR!
and not
AND THEN THE FLYING SAUCER BLASTED OF!! -
"...Why did it [the Alien] let a conquistador steal one of its heads in the first place?" LOL!
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set earlier in the years as they did with Temple. Just turn back the clock to the late forties. No Shia. No Marion. Bring back Saul.
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Shia wasn't the problem with the movie. The villains weren't hard enough, it was too "candified" for adult audiences (too kid friendly) with too many character driven plot moves that didn't make sense except to kids of course. The ending with its WOW factor helped a lot. However, Shia couldn't have turned it down even if it didn't get to display his earthy, vulnerable acting talents. Like it matters, though, he needs Spielberg's trust to continue working in the business that he's in and this latest flip over the 3 ton truck stunt hasn't helped him. It's claer he's been drinking since like the age of 6. He might salvage it a bit by going to rehab of some sort like a recovery program that emphasizes his Jewish spiritual growth/heritage at the Beit T'Shuvah www.beittshuvahla.org/index.html?cartUrl=0
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