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Holy Cow! Is Oliver Stone Back In Fighting Shape? The W Teaser Trailer Leaked...
Hey, everyone. ”Moriarty” here.
... and it looks great!
I love Oliver Stone when he’s working at peak form, but bad oliver Stone is almost too painful to contemplate. I had no idea what to expect from W., and until this teaser trailer, I wasn’t excited.
I am now. Can’t wait to see more. Watch this one quick because it might be gone soon. In the meantime, though, thanks to whoever leaked it... my interest just spiked on this one:
It's not officially suppose to premiere until Monday night on Access Hollywood, but someone has already leaked it to Youtube.
Click Here!
View it why you still can. Turned out pretty good.
---Saddam's Ghost
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but I think we are all sick of watching Bush
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I hated Stone's Nixon.
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fuck!
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could be interesting, i do belive G.W was evil so he prolly touched W. all the time and thats how w. came so fucked up...
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...Josh Brolin is too good looking to be Bush. Hopefully his acting can make us forget this fact, but I didn't feel like that was George W.
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as long as Stone doesn't step all over himself, the movie might actually be good. Although, is it wrong that I get FNL flashbacks from the teaser?
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the first couple'a pages i read of the script for this was god-awful. parts of the trailer look decent, parts look terrible. barbara bush looks like she belongs in a made for tv movie. probably see it anyway but stone's been way off the mark lately, so not expecting much.
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I'm more looking forward to the social reaction on the internets, tv boxes, and blogosphere than the actual movie itself which will no doubt be another hamfisted, unintentionally hilarious turd from the stoney Stonester. And even funnier, even more fucking hilarious, is going to be the reaction from the neocon punditocracy. They are going to be apoplectic with sputtering rage. I can't wait! I mean, I think the movie is going to be terrible, but on such a grand and hilarious scale that it could very well be the best comedy of the year, unintentional or not, it doesn't matter. I can't wait till it hits. I can't wait for the talkbacks, and the Fox "news" anchors calling for blood. Can. Not. WAIT! What a great way to round out the year; an even better way to round out the WORST Presidential administration in this country's history.
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We don't know the enormity of the disaster of the Bush presidency yet.
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I usually have no time for Stone but this might just kick some butt.
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i had to
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Why don't the Republicans just throw W under the bus? He has destroyed their party for the foreseeable future and, like you said, they continue to defend him. I agree with you, the reaction to this will be worth the price of admission and probably be much better than the film.
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or abroad, who can't predict verbatim the "dialogue" between left and right that will clog news channels like an obstructed colon when this movie comes out? I would almost believe Fox News funded this movie, just to boost their viewership as conservatives rally against this flick. To me, it's about as exciting as watching someone give a piece of candy to one toddler just to make the other toddler jealous and angry. You know what's going to come of it, and so what? Pointless and corny, except to the Bush-haters and the Bush-lovers who will get juiced up over this. Both of these groups, by the way, bore the shit out of me. It's over. Let go. Shame that Stone couldn't have been working on something fresh and original.
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Who do you think you are? A Kennedy? You're a Bush! Act like one! Gotta love Rollo Tomassi.
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Looking forward to this one. Hope it's a recovery from World Trade Center, which looked and felt like a TV movie.
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So, what's the plan, then? You'll have this movie and Jeremiah Wright's book to come out just in time to remind the general voting public that they really don't like liberals very much and screw up the election for Barack? Brilliant!
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The movie is about what the trailer says, how did Bush go from frat-boy failure to 43rd president. It's all personality, and if it's on-target it's relevant no matter what further crimes are uncovered. Like other Stone biopics it'll probably take one aspect of the man and run way too far with it, but even if the movie misses by a mile it'll make people think about the real Bush's story.
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This movie is set to premiere 10/29 according to IMDB. The election is NOVEMBER 4TH!
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It's too soon to make sense of the post-9/11 Bush administration, and movies that have dealt with any aspect of the war(s) have bombed. W. will be about everything before that.
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Because this Talkback is gonna 'splode!
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I have a feeling it's going to flop. It's a pass for me as well.
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And, unfortunately, I'll have to settle for it, as his psychotic regime will never be brought to justice.
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What's with Bush snr's accent? Cromwell's just talking in his normal voice but Bush snr has a really distinctive accent.
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That applesauce video is hilarious. He's just not trying anymore, is he? Next week he'll be pumping gas at Amoco in his overalls to talk about rising gas prices.
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Honestly, it's for the best that Cromwell not try a Bush imitation. For good or ill, it would just be compared to Dana Carvey, and I don't think that's what Stone was going for here.
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Hahhahahaha.
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So I can create "W. - The drinking game." Every time he fucks something up, take a drink.
Shit did I say fifth, it's gonna need to be a couple of handles and paramedics will need to be standing by. -
It's just a silly mock-u-pic--as if Bush couldn't get any sillier. How do you satirize something that's already a walking farce?
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I think Bush is a total idiot, and I am not a fan.
That said...who wants to spend 2 hours of their life watching a movie about some person you couldn't care less about?
The right will hate this movie and will take every chance they can to attack this movie like it's about their own family.
The left and most independents will not want to waste their time.
Only the far left fringe (i.e. people who love Lil' Bush) will pay to see this in the theater. -
this actually looks good... def will look at opening day...
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It looks very interesting, but I like history to be a little more detached from the present ... it feels too soon for this kind of biography.
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It seems like Stone is being "fair" in that the sense that he's not just mercilessly spoofing Bush; instead he's playing up the tragic nature of being 'the emperor with no clothes.' Looks like his take on Bush is just a dumb, simple kid who got thrown the mantle of the most powerful man in the world on his shoulders, and he managed to run with it for 8 years despite having no real talent or leadership skills - just a mountain of "aw, shucks" good 'ol boy charisma.
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Wait and see. It's coming out at the end of the year, election time no less, for obvious reasons. And it will be a trip to watch no doubt!
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The general public, through apathy, stupidity, and lack of accountability let this man become elected in the first place. I couldn't even COUNT how many of my co-workers DIDN'T VOTE in the 2000 election. (I voted, BTW)
The public let him get away with the election scandal in Florida, RE-ELECTED the son of a bitch, and have stood by hoping the economy holds up while this asshole puts us right in the toilet. Why should he care? He'll be OK at the end of it all.
As an American, I think we've lived in excess far too long. We've bought too much, charged too much, consumed too much, and let other people do too much thinking for us.
We deserve anything that happens to us at this point. -
good...bring on the fuckin wingnuts...im in a fighting mood
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There's always George Lucas.
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People like YOU that "couldn't care less" are the fucking problem.
Get a pair and start doing something about it. Your attitude sickens me. -
YOU SHOULD CHECK OUT THE POSTER COMIC CON RELEASED FOR FRIDAY THE 13TH ITS PRETTY GREAT. AND THE TRAILER WAS WICKED!
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I am being cereal. Name one thing Bush has done right. JUST ONE!
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The private bush is no idiot. Is a lot more clever than public dumb ass bush we see.
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from the trailer? it was two small excepts from scenes and a buch of quick jumpshots. Dramas are always the toughest films to predict from the trailers to begin with anyway, but this one barely registered to me.
I am not a Bush fan and I know Stone will set out to skewer Bush in this movie no matter how many times he says he won't be partisan, but I have no desire to see this movie. I think it will be a hack job when everything is said and done.
One positive, since Stone is rushing to get it to the theaters in record pacing time, he won't be able to over edit it which has been a huge flaw of many of his recent movies. -
Hey American dudes, here's your chance to elect a president who isn't a total fuckwit. Third time lucky at the polls please? You owe the world for 8 years of Bush.
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But the movie is about George W. Bush, not Jimmy Carter.
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These quick-made biopics belong in the same bargain bin as the Amy Fischer and Tony Harding tv movies.
Why should we believe this will be any better than his Nixon or anything else he's made in tha last ten years? Sure, Bush is a fucking disgrace and a goofball, but Stone is ripe for this same style of heckling satire. I think part of the reason Stone was drawn to this story is because it's not so very different from his own biography of a narcissistic Baby Boomer's rise to power and the decadent excesses and failures that followed. -
This movie is going to be hilarious. But seriously mugley Conde Rice could only dream to look like Thandie Newton. I with what other posters, said the reaction alone will be better than the movie itself. I can't wait.
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noone in the rest of the world can understand why America re-elected this man. and now he gets his own movie. can't fuckin believe it...
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Jul 27, 2008 5:47:06 PM CDT
They needed to fit Thandie Newton with those Condi snaggleteeth
by fiester
But then everyone in this flick is more attractive than the person they are portraying.
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im so with you on the nightmare on elm street info. i hate that its being remade. hate it. ...there has not been one good platinum dunes remake. .. .......love seeing our future expresident do a beer bong in the trailer though.
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It really does look like a rush job...I get the reason why they have to get it done quick...it's stupid...it has the same goal as "Fahrenheit 9/11" did...it will probably be equally as effective (read: not at all). That's not in defense of Pres. Bush...these things seems to hurt the cause more than anything...what the fuck do I know...as long as it's entertaining I guess.
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Spock travels back in time to save W from an attempt at his life by Al Gore.
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...why the fuck would I want to voluntarily sit through two hours more of that fuck than I have to?
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He's one of the greats. Wall Street, Talk Radio, Platoon, Salvador, JFK, Natural Born Killers, and Nixon are all arguably great for different and unique reasons. I'm willing to give anything he is behind the benefit of the doubt that it will be a good film, regardless of the politics.
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The last half of the trailer, where it shows the cast, looks like Dick fucking Tracy.
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whatever your thoughts on the conspiracy, the movie is better than say platoon.
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And I think Oliver Stone is pretty awful a lot of the time. As long as it focuses on his "early years" I think there's enough time passed for decent perspective. We'll see how they handle it I guess.
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I'd like to see Stone, Coppola, and Lucas get together and do the shittiest film ever made.
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Recently. the govt of ireland are all barristers and they cant run the country without making a haims of it. Dublin airports radar system broke and it took them three days to get it back to full capacity. The govt knew about all this and did nothing. In 2008 that is not good enough.
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I agree... Let's take a look at the breakdown of people seeing this.
The People that saw Dark Knight:
100%
Of that 100%, who would want to see "W"?
50%: Republicans who are outraged and wouldn't see it.
25%: Democrats who really don't give a damn since Dubya is only going to be in office for another couple months, thus don't want to dish out the money to see this.
25%: Far Left that take great joy in laughing at an easy to laugh at President.
So, only 25% (being generous here) of the folks that flocked to see Dark Knight would even entertain the idea of watching W.
Also, I really don't see why Republicans would get so uptight about this. Bush has already shown that he has the balls necessary to stomach all of this shit that has been thrown at him throughout the past eight years. Republicans can take a "joke."
Let's see a cartoon or a movie lampooning Obama. Five bucks says that Liberals would be foaming at the mouth and that the Lampooner would be called a racist.
Obama isn't even president yet and he plays the victim any time something comes out making fun of him. Hussein, The Ears, the "Uhs", his followers that believe he is the Messiah, his "anti-American" wife, his "anti-Troops" mentality. Anytime a joke was made, he acted horribly. Contrast that with Bush... -
like him or not (and I hate him) - the man left a HUGE imprint on this nation and on the world, much moreso than any president before him since FDR.
I'm very curious (to put it mildly) to see what his post-presidency is like. It's one thing to be a failed president, like Nixon, but have redeeming qualities like intelligence and political acumen. It's another thing to be a failed president, have no intelligence and nobody wants to be associated with you because you corrupted the brand of your party and got the world to hate your country.
He better find a nice rock and hide under it for a few decades. -
he should reteam with Brolin to make a Bush vs. Escobar movie, sort of like Moss and Chigurh are reborn Highlander-style to fight on as other personas.
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I think people of all ideologies will see this if it looks good. If it looks like crap, nobody is going to waste their money on it.
I will say this, the trailer has me interested. -
he was a paranoid, but he did end the vietnam war, made detent with the soviet union, was the first prez to visit china, saved israel from total destruction and did alot of very liberal things with domestic policy and the economy...it was his paranoia and his belief in the imperial presidence that brought him down...bush is a puppet on a string
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.....and I still can't believe he was elected.
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the name. seriously.... people feal what they dont understand.
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That's assuming that 100% of the people that would watch "W" saw "The Dark Knight". Sorry, they did not. I even have friends and family that didn't like the first one and won't see it. Really. I have since shunned them. I know a LOT of people that would go see this before a Batman movie, no matter how good they are told DK is.
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and is generally regarded as a bad president, or at least someone most Americans wouldn't vote for again.
That's a failure in my book, even if he did some good things. It's pretty hard to be a president for close to eight years and not do SOME good things.
Well, maybe Bush, but that's only because I can't think of a single good thing he's done. I'm sure there is one though, at least one. -
hahahahahahahahahahahaha...
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was a great movie.
I'm just saying
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on how many shows Sean Hannity and Billo the clown will be able to squeeze out of this movie? I'll check it out sooner or later, but I don't need a movie to tell me what a terrible president this man has been.
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I always feel things I don't understand.
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"the man left a HUGE imprint on this nation and on the world, much moreso than any president before him since FDR"
Kind of like how when someone takes a REALLY stinky shit in the bathroom at work, the smell seems to linger for hours. Kind of like that?
The worst part is that the America you've know since the 1980's is done. We will see the recession hit near-depression levels. People owe too much and cannot pay. There are tent cities emerging in nearly every major city in America. Banks are collapsing. There will be no "New Deal". Sit back and watch the corporations tumble, because there will be no one that can buy their shit anymore. -
I mean, is this film trying be an actual serious biography with some possible humor or whatever or just a straight up parody? If it's teh former and this is a serious look at the man it just doesn't make sense at this time... you'll have to wait years until the dust of 9/11 and the Iraq war clears before you're actually able to investigate anything properly... and if this film ends before 9/11 happens that that's like shoinw up at a birthday party and everyone eats some snacks but goes home before any acual lunch is served and not even getting to the freaking cake...
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compared to Rancid Ronnie and Dummy Dubya.
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Thandie is way too hot to be Condie, though. They should've cast Whoopi Goldberg.
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As TDK is beating all the BO Records, I just used it as an example of one of the recent movies that A LOT of people went to see.
And the person that would rather see W over TDK would probably fall into that "25% Far Left" category. Just a guess. -
See, now, I would watch a whole movie about Cheney as played by Dreyfuss. Maybe he ought to spin it out into a one-man show.
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This is a cartoon, in the worst sense. Making a movie about someone he hates, of course.
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every one of the 4 girls from Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. Yes, even Ugly Betty.
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If you could make a movie about anyone you hated, what movie would you make?!
I'd make a Jason Statham movie! -
How about how he more than tripled US aid to Africa? Sounds like a pretty decent thing to have done.
Here's a Washington Post article all about it: http://tinyurl.com/3yp4fw -
...but saying that 25% of the people who saw DK would see "W" doesn't include the millions of people that would not go see "Dark Knight". There are a lot. I'd say about 75% of the people I work with haven't even SEEN DK yet.
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They don't look at all like the people they play (except maybe for Thandie Newton), but overall it's a decent teaser. Hopefully this film will be a big improvement over Alexander and that shitty football movie I can't even remember the name of. Oh, and fuck Bush btw.
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doesn't look terrible
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It's going to be pretty funny, 10-20 years from now, when the people who found it sooo easy to jump on the Bush bashing band wagon are back peddling like crazy when faced with the true legacy of the Bush years. The man stood up to the enemies of Western Civilization while the very people he was trying to protect snickered and jeered at him from behind his coat-tails. He knew it was politically risky, but he also knew it had to be done, either now or later at a much higher cost. Most of the rest of the world are either dithering do-nothings like the Europeans or those whose ambitions run contrary to the Americans. Who gives a rats-ass what they think? Some people sneer at the term “cowboy”, but being a cowboy is what made America great - down home common sense and the independent nature to take the bull by the horns. Bush hatred is just another manifestation of the pussification of the West and the pussies don’t like it when someone stands up and makes the hard decisions.
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But how accurate is this really going to be. Remember JFK?
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I gotsta lovin dem bushes, mmmm mmmm yesiree! Anyway is this film pro bush or not? Is it a halfway house?
Can anybody tell me? I have no idea. -
...the system is broken. I'm on the registry and I get calls all the time. They have legal exceptions that companies exploit.
Oh, and there are jerk like me that enjoy getting the calls. I see how long I can waste their time before they hang up. The best is, "Hold on a sec while I turn down the TV". Then I just leave the phone until they hang up. One poor soul lasted five minutes while I looked at porn on the internet. He hung up after I started playing clips and holding the receiver to the computer speaker. -
http://www.traileraddict.com/trailer/w/teaser-trailer
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He did triple the aid... but still is pushing abstinence in Aids/HIV programs in Africa... a joke.
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I loved Platoon, loved Wall Street, loved Born on the 4th of July, and thought the Doors was very good, but once he started with the conspiracy theory movies like JFK, where most of his facts are.....not true, I gave up on his movies. Stone is talented as hell, as can craft an engaging movie on any subject, but the man has lost credibility cause he just puts in his supposed 'bio' movies anything he wants, and younger fans who may have not experienced that part of history think this shit is true. Oh yeah, Lee Harvey acted alone, I hate to break it to everyone but he did.
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I am a pro-torture strict constructionist/libertarian so most of the big government initiatives Bush has undertaken irritate me. Having disclosed my bias, I just don't see how anyone would want to put on a tin foil hat and watch an Oliver Stone film about any historical figure, given his track record for straying far from fact.
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when are you enlisting, again?
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Or the president it's about
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Sheesh, I mean, the worst president in modern memory, perhaps ever, and a movie about him, I mean, that's just not marketable. Who would want to watch this? Oh, yeah, the 49% who voted for him, twice! Those people are just marginal now, but they really ought to be held as accountable as this monster himself.
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I call bullshit. Bush didn't say "I am going to transform the Middle East". He said he was going to remove a threat and eliminate WMDs. He expounded and magnified intelligence that was just plain wrong. He diverted resources from capturing Osama and stablizing Afghanistan, which could have been a beacon of democracy. He sent in a smaller force to Iraq expecting to be there for a month with little to know forethought to reconstruction. 4,000 Americans dead. Hundereds of thousands of Iraqis dead. What will probably come to trillions of dollars in costs. If he's a cowboy, he walked into a saloon alone, shot at a bunch of people, then let them shoot at each other, then shrugged his shoulder and gave his sheriff badge off to some other guy, and walked back to his ranch. If it just so happens that it doesn't all turn to shit, that doesn't mean Bush was some grand visionary genius. The Iraq war was unprovoked and unjustified.
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...in the ass.
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The Washington Post also had an article about how that aid is becoming more militarized. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123000941.html
Some related points, the dictator in Guinea has been called the most brutal in Africa, and yet the US gives him financial support (because of the huge oil reserves in Guinea). Bush has made it so that many reproductive clinics in Africa are now denied funding, not good for a continent dealing with aids and poverty. -
It's an official release from the studios. Firstshowing.net had it in full HD yesterday. On more reason AICN is becoming irrelevant and incompetent.
And yeah, just for the record, who cares about this movie anyways? -
More liberal garbage. There will be thousands of facts as Stone sees them in this thing and only two will probably have any real truth connected with them.
Another Hollywood halfwit hatchet job on a republican. You would think the Hollywood money people would have stopped bankrolling such tripe as the horrific receipts for all the anti-war movies emptied their fortunes.
No thanks to any political movie with the following liberal morons involved. Tim Robbins, Susan Sarandon, George Clooney, Rob Reiner, Oliver Stone, John Cusack, Bryan Depalma, Barbara Streisand (her moron husband and son), Sean Penn, Danny Glover, Ben Affleck, Matt Damon (stick to Bourne), Michael Moore, Al Gore, Alec Baldwin, Martin Sheen and more.
Hey Hollywood, anyone working on a screenplay for a John Edwards movie?
You know, the one where he's out banging a woman in charge of producing his political commercials, he impregnates her all while his wife is undergoing cancer treatments.
Oliver Stone, are you interested in that one?
Of course not, we can't even get the mainstream media to report on this developing story.
Oh yeah, that's right, Edwards is a democrat. -
this actually looks kinda good. What would be really good is a straight down the line bio pick that dosen't smear or deify him, but with stone that seems unlikly. plus remember the argument with tom cruise and his german accent. good acting should over ride bunged on accents and casting to make the person look exactly like the dude. Should they have got that guy who does the bush impersonations? no.
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Really? The keg stand? The observable soundstage above the pool table? Is this not just as over the top as everything Stone's done to ruin his reputation? What about this looks even remotely redemptive?
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Possible...
depends on it's budget.
Few things to consider: Bush's approval rating is at an all time low, meaning there are more people against him than for him. Those people will likely see the movie.
Big stars are cast in the roles.
Oliver Stone is always enjoyably controversial.
I am sure there's more, but depending on it budget, which is likely in the low millions, the movie should make it back in its opening weekend. Then there's dvd sales and rentals.
Plus the movie is intriguing... -
It was only a glimpse, but damn that is some great casting. Second best was that Capote guy (Infamous, not the other one) as Rove.
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Q. What’s the difference between tampons and cowboy hats?
A. Cowboy hats are for ass holes.
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When FOX & Friends start going apeshit it's going to be the veractity of discussions between Dubya and other characters that's going to be the main bludgeon.
Stone isn't stupid enough to make shit up so some of the more embarrassing but well documented things Bush has done will be ignored by the Loyal Bushies in favour of challenging the veracity of every utterance that can't be backed up with a transcript.
Those interested in the Moive are beginning to see what it will "feel" like and a Travelogue of Dubya from youth to War seems to be the name of the game.
None of the actors look terrible. There is a rematkable story to be told. And it doesn't look like thre was any skimping on the period and set detail.
It looks promising. But to say more than that at this stage would be unwarranted. -
I keep material that i get from cristian missionaries and when i get a call i try to convert them. 'can i ask you a question' 'yes' 'have you found jesus..'
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I don't care who you are, the fact that this comes out soon close to the election is pretty shameless. When art serves no other purpose than to plug your political views, I think it's time your artist card gets revoked.
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WTF!? You been in a coma the last 8 years or something? Unplug yourself from the machine, doofus, and wake up.Blow jobs and fucking campaign workers don't get people killed. There's no parallel. Make fun of Haircut Edwards all you want, but the only people you can hold accountable for the shithole that we're all in now is the Bushies.
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So why would I want to watch him in a movie where I know he won't get kicked in the balls? I'll see it just to support it I guess because I'm confused how there are Americans who still like him or anything he's done. If you're one of those people please kill yourself and do us all a really big favor.
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It's just like, what's the point? Morbid curiosity in watching good actors take on the roles of our country's most incompetent leaders? Pass. And I dread, dread, dread the retarded conversations between wingnuts this movie will inspire.
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This looks fucking fantastic. Stone is the man.
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Stone trying to re-launch his career with another bash America film, not surprised.
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Should be Bush and Laura talking happily when a White House assistant rushes into the room and says "Something's happened at the World Trade Centers!" Cut to black screen with white titles "BUSH" and roll credits. 5 years later give us "W2".
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suddenly his eyes changed in Bush's eyes. I hope he gets the voice right. I too love Stone when he's on fire. It'll get my $12... if the reviewers I trust like it that is. Otherwise it'll get my rental.
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The amount of "stupid" represented here is amazing in its scope, but I shouldn't be surprised considering most of you get your best reading done while sitting on the can perusing comic books. GWB did more to save this country than that sad sack cigar fondling rapist idiot ever did. Clinton left a dumpster of CRAP on the White House doorstep, lit it on fire, rang the bell and ran away. When W opened the door and tried to stomp out the fire, the media with help from morons like you sat there, took pictures and blamed him for the mess. Your lack of a grasp of history and the facts is very telling as to where your brains are...up your asses. I see a lot of E-courage here but I don't see any of you stepping up to make a change, just a bunch of hot air bags spewing crap out of their mouthes.
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that trailer just doesn't look like a good movie at all
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you mean to tell me you don't know where Bush was when the WTC 9/11 business went down? really?
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like the warning the Bin Laden was determined to strike in the U.S. - and then Bush went on vacation 6 months into his presidency when the only issue he was worried about at the time was stem cell research and how to stop it.
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I'll remember that one. Another stragey I use is to repeat every question they ask then "think about it" a really long time:
"Sir, have you thought about a low-interest credit card from Chase Manhattan Bank?"
"Have I thought about a low-interest credit card from Chase Manhattan Bank? Ummmm, wellll, sort of... uhhh. Hmmm. Wellll, I guess....uhhhh... kind of- well, a little maybe, I mean, uhhhhh......if you mean uhhhhh..." (etc, etc.) -
Are you typing your message from Iraq, yo? If not, STFU. "I see a lot of E-courage here but I don't see any of you stepping up to make a change, just a bunch of hot air bags spewing crap out of their mouthes." Pot, kettle, black, doofus. Now go feed Lord Rush some more of his happy pills or shove something up King O'Reilly's arse. I hear he likes that sort of thing. They have him on tape saying so.
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And dancing with a woman? On a bar? No president wold ever have such scandalous behavior in their past! Can we have a movie showing us what ever president for the past fifty years has done in college, please?I guess I just don't see the point of this movie. If you don't like Bush, you have all ready heard all of these facts and/or rumors. If you like him, you'll think it's at 50% fictional. What is the point, Ollie?And Stone seems to have included an extra added bonus of being able to say, "GHW Bush was evil, too." But really folks, if there was an election between Daddy Bush and Lil' Bush, I'd still take Daddy in a minute.
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Jul 27, 2008 8:24:05 PM CDT
Its Not Bashing America, Its Bashing Bush (aka Worst President E
by laserpants
Its the Bushies and the Neocons who hate America, who want to turn it into a theocratic fascist dictatorship. FINALLY the vast majority of Americans realize this and will be voting for their next President -- Barrack Obama -- in November.
So, to you Oceanlizard, and to all Neocon fucktards still left (I think there are like, what, 10 of you still left down South?) I ask the question -- why do you hate America? -
Dial your paranoia down a notch, junior.
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Bush didn't just drink in college. He drank and did drugs well into his 40s. In fact, he didn't "change his ways" until right before his failed run for congress.
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Love some of the comments so far. I knew AICNers would provide plenty of lulz with this. I honestly don't know who this movie is being made for. Most people realize how fucked up this country has been under that douchebag and why someone would pay money to see it on screen I'll never know.
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this trailer portrays it in the bedroom..either way - he's a drunk goon.
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As in "filmmakers trying to create buzz by pretending the trailer gets leaked." Stone's a has-been.
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I don't consider myself to be of either party, but I really don't think it's true most people are all ready voting for Obama and there are no Republicans left. I suppose you may be using "neocon" to mean the ultra-right wing Republicans. But even so, McCain is seen by many as a closer to moderate Republican. There's a bigger fight coming in this election than you think. I feel like a lot is going to depend on how the debates end up going. I'm not quite sure on either of them. I've yet to decide.
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it's not a movie about the last 8 years, it's a movie about the guy who has been in charge in the last 8 years, but everything that happened in his life prior to the last 8 years.
at least, that's how I understand it. -
I know Bush had drug problems, etc, as well. I'm just going by the trailer, though. Like we should be shocked seeing a beer bong. And seeing Bush have these issues would not really be a revelation. Which again, is why I wonder what the point of this movie is. Exploring GWB's life isn't a terrible idea for a film. I just don't think this particular film will be the way to do it.In fact, I have the feeling you could make an interesting movie about ANY president. Any man's rise to the office of the presidency has to be somewhat interesting. I wanna see: "An Oliver Stone Film... POLK"
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none of us are solving the world's problems in this talkback. If you really want to make a change, quit pointing the finger. Remember, when you point the finger, there are three pointing back at yourself. Former Flyers coach, Fred Shero said it best, "Success is not the result of spontaneous combustion. You must set yourself on fire." Who's got a match? Or are you too busy sitting in a dark room, angrily typing insults to your fellow man to care? Life is short. Make a difference. None of us are doing it in this talkback. Believe me.
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No kidding. Happened a month before the 2000 election. He also had armed goons escort me and another reporter off the premises of a Republican rally ('cuz we weren't with bigtime corporate media, just small-town newspapers). Since then being called an "asshole" by this man has become a badge of honor for me. Anyway, trailer looks good.
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The story of James A. Garfield
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The story of William Howard Taft
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that Obama has a complete lock on the presidency just isn't paying attention. McCain has the respect of a lot of people and many people are uncertain about Obama. And vice versa. McCain is not Bush and a lot of people who hate Bush would still be willing to vote for McCain. Personally, I wish two other guys got the nominations. But this is definitely not a cut and dried election.
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Didn't that happen at some other point, where he called a reporter an asshole to Cheney as they stood on stage, and the mic picked it up? Something like that.
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Playkins
So "getting a pair" and "doing something about it" means shelling out money to see a film about a prez with a few months left in office? LOL. Doing something about it means voting...not watching movies.
You're getting played, son. -
If you were that "asshole" Bush referred to, I think that actually is cool. To have someone that important know me and have such an intense opinion... cool. As far as I know, no president has ever noticed me. But, the real question is, ARE you an asshole? :) But don't take that badly. Some of my best friends are assholes. Relatives, too. There's a pretty good chance I am, too.
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This is getting more amusing by the second.
DAMN YOU CLINTON !!!! You got us into this mess!!!!
LOL indeed! -
he said so himself. Boy is always talkin down to black people.
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I don't know if you meant me, but I point out again that Bush is NOT running. And voting for McCain does not necessarily make you a Bush supporter. Granted, yes, most Bush supporters would likely vote for McCain, but some Bush haters could, too. Bush supporters can't "fail" in 2008, cuz Bush isn't running. If the Democrats want to win, I advise them to realize that, and they'll have a better chance. Just assuming that people will vote for Dems to get rid of Bush is dangerous. That's not the way to win. Many were shocked that Kerry didn't win.
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take over this talkback. oh and born on the forth of July was one of the best films ever, cruise should have got the academy award.
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His problem is he doesn't seem presidential at all. He's a little spazzy dude who was cool as the crazy(ish) renegade Republican, but as a standard-bearer is lacking quite a bit. He's old and even worse, he's old-ooking. He looks like Bilbo Baggins after he gave up the ring.
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Blocked now
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It wasn't long before it got out that they were doing it to other reporters. But those were with "big" press. The other guy and I were just with small-time outfits, weekly newspapers. Bush REALLY doesn't like for there to be reporters around him, who are anyone but people he can control/know what to expect what kind of questions from (i.e. softball ones). The thing is, I didn't go to the rally to press him on anything particularly hard anyway. I just happened to get invited to come by a Republican official, and then when I got there and they found out I was with a small newspaper, one of the Bush thugs tore my invite in pieces, threatened me with physical harm and then had us escorted out at gunpoint to a "protest zone". We might have been some of the first to see what a "free speech zone" in Bushspeak looks like.I decided then that this was not a man who was worth trusting a country like America to.And I don't have a dog in this year's election, either, in case anyone's wondering.
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George H. W. Bush... Can't remember his name, James something? Good actor, but he doesn't act like or even resemble H. W.
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Whoops.
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Is it wrong to not want McCain or Obama? Is it wrong to feel that either way our country is getting away from us - no matter which party wins?
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But you're engaging in a little wishful thinking there, based on your disbelief that anyone could vote Republican after GWB. They can, and they have, and they will. I'm not thrilled with McCain, either though. I don't like that he may be changing some of his views just to please the more conservative folks. But I just have to take a closer look at Obama cuz I'm afraid he could just be an empty suit saying things people like to hear. But then again, maybe not. My final decision is still forthcoming.
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It seems that, as of right now anyway, America AGAIN can not decide either. 47% to 44% - Obama.
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Looks shit. Horrible, disgusting, shitty biopic shit. Thandie Newton as Condi? YEAH! I've never wanted to jump Condi's bones until now.Still up on YouTube. I guess they'll take any promotion they can get.
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ROCK ME SEXY CHAVEZ!!!
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I'll admit I'm leaning to your way of thinking...
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Nice screen name.
I'm actually disappointed in my view, also, but I can't help it. I don't really care for what's going on right now...and I'm not in line with McCain, but Obama does not inspire me like he seems to inspire so many others.
I try and try to really get into the issues and I'm not satisfied with what anyone is saying. Anything that sounds positive from either one of them is quickly debunked by someone else or feels like it's nothing but smoke blowing up our asses.
I guess I'll wait for the debates...that's all I can do... -
He deserves his rootin tootin drunken shootin cameo.
Actually Cromwell would have made a passable Whittington lookswise. -
Looks amazingly hilarious! Even if they did have to have title cards id'ing the characters (Scott Glenn looks a little hip or something for Rumsfeld, but I can totally see him pulling it off in the performance), it only adds to the warped fever dream of a sitcom/Animal House/West Wing/Dallas kind of vibe. Could be gold.
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Jul 27, 2008 9:53:16 PM CDT
LOOKS CAMPY!! oh and aint it cool news is the fox news of movie
by sleeptones
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I dunno man. Sure the race is far from over, but even at this stage it looks like its Obama's to lose. But, yeah, I see what you mean. I think the debates are going to seal the deal. Thing is that Obama is a great orator, and McCain has zero charisma. Plus, McCain is seen by most people as a guy who, although more moderate than Bush, is still basically chanting the Bush party line. PLUS, he's given to fits of rage. So, if you have calm, cool headed, young, popular rockstar Obama up against angry, hot-headed, (very) old, not very popular McCain? This contest is already over. People are CRAZY excited about Obama. His nomination is historical, he's charismatic, he represents a symbol of the US changing course and mending the horrifying damage that the Bush Administration has done both at home and abroad over the past 8 years. He's got the juice, he's got people in the US and around the world jumping up and down with excitement, and McCain's got... what, exactly? Not much. All he's got is the "he's not the other guy" appeal which doesn't win elections (for evidence of this see the 2004 elections). Shit, McCain even started coping the "hope and change" message Obama keeps rolling with! I dunno, when you have to start coping the other guy's message? Especially when the "hope and change" you offer is more of the same? You lost.I think the thing that most people aren't ready to deal with is the fact that Obama is going to have a MOUNTAIN of shit to deal with when he gets into office, the shitstorm of Bush's multitude of epic failures, and he simply isn't going to be able to fix it all. Then the screaming head neocon punditocracy will start blaming Obama for everything Bush did, just like they STILL blame Clinton for everything Bush did. Still I have hope. Its one of the few things I do have hope for. A change, getting back on track, overcoming the past 8 years and becoming the beacon of hope our country used to be and will be again.
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No one will see this outside of NYC, California, and College Campuses.
I can't believe there are people on here who are already convinced that Obama is going to be POTUS. No chance hippy dreamers.
Here's Obama in his own words, and why he won't make it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=dl32Y7wDVDs&feature=related
Wanting to pull out of Iraq is one thing (stupid as it may be). Wanting to work toward disarming America and turning it into Canada or some other pussy nation isn't gonna stand.
And here's a link that shows the similarities between the plot of Dark Knight and W:
http://online.wsj.com/article/ SB121694247343482821.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries
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At least.
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Dude, I was like 9 when it happened and Canadian haha. You can undertsand the lack of knowledge, yes?
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Jul 27, 2008 10:13:12 PM CDT
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, ju
by laserpants
"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator." - George Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 19, 2000
It's not paranoia on my part. I suppose you could argue for hyperbole, maybe, but when the guy has this as his modus operandi, and spends the majority of the past 8 years gutting civil rights and giving himself near imperial authority by using legalese like "War On Terror" to justify arrests and imprisonment without trial, warrantless wire tapping, and an unjustifiable endless war, all in "God's" name, with "God's" guidance? Yeah, I think a healthy amount of fear, or at the very least, skepticism and readiness, is called for... -
Has been like that since Hilary dropped out. And what happened to all of the promises from people who said they were going to Canada 4 years ago? How about some follow through?
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this is a country that elected Bush into office twice. How is McCain supposedly not being any different than Bush a knock against getting elected? What makes you think Bush couldn't get elected a third time? Everyone was convinced there was no way Bush was getting re-elected, and look how that turned out.
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I liked the trailer. This movie's gonna be hilarious.
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Damn! That won't work Batman is extremely popular. Clearly not Bush territory.
Oh well, so much for that theory.
Maybe next time Dubya could aspire to be a Sesame Street character... Cookie Monster say... well, again, that might be too popular.
There must be a hugely unpopular character from somewhere he can pretend to be ? Some kind of Duck even ??? Anything... -
That is all.
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.... when Bush got re-elected. Just the hippies and wacky other countries.
Only the coasts were convinced he wouldn't. -
B. Hussein Obama is like an even more phony, even more clueless George W. Bush, except that he's half black so he can race bash you if you criticize him now. The only reason you still have your head and your country still has the internet is because of George W Bush and the mighty US of A. Your Welcome, Bitch.
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And if memory serves, he only won by a very slim majority. I think it was like 2.8% of the vote? He barely scraped in, and that was running against a weak candidate. Obama, on the other hand, is a supernova, he's a friggin' rockstar. Couple that with the deepening recession, skyrocketing inflation, ludicrous oil prices, and a neverending unjustifiable war that is costing us billions daily? Things are A LOT worse now than 4 years ago and people are fed up. Its Obama's race to lose. Especially when McCain's rhetoric (when he isn't parroting Bush's) amounts to telling people to "stop whining" about losing their jobs and that the only way to effect "change" is to stay the same, learn nothing, and slowly collapse into ruin and despair.
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Please. Gallup has Obama at a +9.0, Reuters at +7.0. Hell, even Fox "News" has him at a +1.0.
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Sounds like a pretty nasty experience. On the other hand at least we're not a "pussy nation", right rabbittrick?
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are the only two people on the planet who enjoyed the hell out of Alexander. Great performances, beautiful photography, greusome battles, and a rousing score.
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I'm going into the Medical Field...how is Universal Healthcare (which I'm not sure can be achieved, but just for the sake of argument) going to affect my job?
I'm being completely open-minded and I want BOTH sides of the story. I am not criticizing either view. I want to know, but guess what? Real, true info on that is hard to find when most people would rather talk about how "boring" McCain is or whether Obama is "black enough." All I hear about Universal Healthcare is that it will be grossly inefficient and detrimental OR that it's something we need, because everyone deserves it. I want to know the actual EFFECT it is going to have on us!
I just want answers to the issues that affect us. Where are they?!?! No one seems to want to answer these. I can't get them, whether I'm watching Fox, MSNBC, CNN, or listening to NPR. -
Sounds awesome! Are the chicks hot there? If so, I am SO there for some Pussy Nation Pussy!!!
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Who has been arrested and imprisoned?
Are they wire tapping anyone's phone that you know?
That's fucking terrifying! -
And thanks for the link to the video, but he didn't say he wanted to disarm America. he's talking about the military-industrial complex, and wasting money on bullshit weapons development just to line the pockets of defense contractors. That's why he said there would be an oversight committee to make sure future developments were on the up-and-up and not abuses of the system. Beyond that he advocated a world without nuclear weapons. Yes, a world without nuclear weapons would have to include the US, because as much as some would like it not to be the case, the US is part of the world. Bear in mind I gleaned all this from that same 52 second video. I don't even know why I'm responding to someone who talks about "pussy nations" but whatever.
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Jul 27, 2008 11:03:48 PM CDT
Well, Japan And Germany Have The Best Medical Systems In The Wor
by laserpants
And have Universal Healthcare. The anti-universal healthcare thing can be traced directly back to the hyper-wealthy %1 who can't bear to part with one red cent to help the people upon whose backs they built their fortune. Hey, how about this, overclass? How about we just roll up on you mansions and fucking TAKE your wealth? How about that? Wouldn't be the first time its happened in human history now would it? Lot more of us than there are of you. Something to think about. Maybe.
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And Oliver Stone is a stupid motherfucker.
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You know the ones that still haven't been put on trial? Who knows if they'll ever get one. Guilty until proven innocent! Besides, they're skin is brown so they must be evildoers. Hey, wasn't that your sister who was in that picture? The one with the dog biting the guys face and/or the pile of naked brown people? Boy, remember when we used to be a democracy? That was SO gay! As far as the wire-tapping is concerned, I guess I should just shut up. The only way to ensure freedom is to eliminate it, of course, how silly of me. War is Peace! Surveillance is Privacy! Pain is Joy! Sieg Heil! Praise Jesus! Kill Kill Kill! Amen.
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Jul 27, 2008 11:09:31 PM CDT
Japan & Germany Have The Best Medical Systems In The World
by laserpants
I'll come if we ever get an edit function.
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Just being a Devil's advocate here:
What about higher taxes?...what about those that refuse to practice healthier lives?...what about declining quality of service?...and if we increase regulations on personal health like the Japanese, isn't this against the free ideals of the same people proposing Universal Healthcare? -
So, you're a reactionary bigot given to fits of ludicrous hyperbole? I guess you're referring to the Islamic radicals living it up in beautiful Guantanamo Bay Cuba? Hey, ask Nic Berg what a fair trial feels like. Dude, you know people are always thinking that my sister looks just like your mom but prettier and with bigger tits. Seriously though, do you hear clicking on your phone line or what?
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1) HIgher taxes for services that are useful, that are helpful, that ensure happy healthy lives, rather than say, a neverending war based on false pretenses, I, personally could accept. 2) As far as those who refuse to practice healthier lives (whatever that means), they would have to demonstrate progress in order to receive services. Not hard to do. Again, look at, well, look at pretty every other developed first world nation on the planet who manages to have excellent, cutting edge universal health care like Japan, Germany, et al.
3) See thats the thing, there IS NO demonstrated decline in quality of service; thats a misnomer, a falsehood. Again, the quality of care in German, Japan, and others are actually BETTER than the quality of care in the US. If anything, the free-market hell system we have is causing the system to decline. The proof is in the pudding.
4) There are increased regulations on personal health in Japan? Since when? I lived there for several years, got free healthcare, and was never told what I could and/or couldn't do. Where did you even get that information from? Are you just making stuff up? -
Why would I make stuff up - I'm trying to find the answer here. Please, I'm on a rational quest here - if I am misinformed about something, please just tell me so.
For #4, I was speaking about the waist size regulations that have been implemented in Japan.
Thank you for your answers, though - I got more from ONE post here, then I have from the cursory discussions (if you even call them that) in the media or public. Listening to them, they give no actual reasons WHY our health care is declining and those on the other side never mention that health care is actually GOOD in these other countries. -
Are you actually suggesting that we become more like Japan and Germany? Did they just not teach world history pre-1950 where you grew up?
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Let me tell you how "Higher Taxes" work.
Increasing taxes for the "rich" only affects the middle and lower classes. Increased taxes only inconvenience business owners, so they are forced to cutback in order to keep everything in the green. What does that mean? Increasing the prices of service and laying off employees. But, we will have plenty of government services to help those newly unemployed, eh?
So, yeah, higher taxes just increases the power of the government over our everyday lives. You think that's acceptable? -
Oh I get it, because Nic Berg got killed by terrorists, we should be just like them? Uh, so, where is our moral high ground then? Uh, yeah, under your pro-fascist ideology, it doesn't exist. Darn that Constitution, right Jed? With all its democratizationing of the whole ding dang thang! In terms of the warrantless wiretapping, I don't know if my phone is being tapped. How could I? And how does the fact that I don't know supposed to make me feel better about civil rights being eroded? Man, you would have LOVED the fall of the Weimer Republic. Also, do you hear a click anymore? Isn't that old school? Much easier to trespass on private conversations now, though, what with cell phone technology being so freaking easy to crack. And since The Administarion (God bless its Holy Mission) is so cavalier what with the dismissal of that legal bullshit (you know, what was that piece of brown paper called? Oh yeah! The Constitution!), I don't know if I'm on the list. But, you know, I do have foreign friends with *gasp* dark skin, some who are even from countries identified as being a part of the... wait for it... THE AXIS OF EVIL!!! Oooooh! Isn't that were Cobra Commander and Skeletor are from?! So I very well may be on the list. Hey, Jed, maybe yours is too! But I dunno if they're worried about inbred cretins too much, though. But you never know... maybe you're not patriotic enough? Have you ever thought of that... Jed? PRAISE JEEBUS!!!
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everyone needs to watch AMERICA FROM FREEDOM TO FASCISM, by AAROON RUSSO. its a big ol' dose of the RED PILL. want to know who really runs the world? this will wake you up to the tyranny that surrounds us all. -----http://tinyurl.com/69z3rb
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Sorry to burst your happy little Good Guys and Bad Guys balloon Jed but many of em were sold to American Forces by the very same Warlords who sell the Opium & commit atrocities.
So how likely is it that when they, as well as some Pakistan operatives, were getting $5,000-$25,000 per prisoner some of these guys were used to get cash ?
That your idea of "intelligence" Jed ?
Or did you think all the "bad guys" in Gitmo were picked up twiddling evil moustaches and chanting death to America in booming scary voices ? -
Um, both Japan and Germany learned from their mistakes and crimes. Now they're two of the most progressive countries on Earth. Isn't that neat how nations can learn from their mistakes and their crimes? Not so much the US, though (hint: Vietnam), we haven't quiiiite figured that out yet. Aaaand PWNED.
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I read "tyranny" as "tranny" and I was actually more afraid before I realized what the real word was! ;)
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Like it's really swaying anyone who was on the fence. I guarantee if his full name was Barack Iheartjesus Obama the same people who cart out the Hussein bit in their chain emails would still not be voting for him.
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When did dropping water on someone's head become the equivalent of chopping it off?
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Yeah, that is really dumb. It's such a superficial and transparent attack on a guy for no reason. The problem is that it is also subversive and DOES work on some dumb people. Again, I haven't decided what's best yet, but I'm sure as hell not going to be swayed by "McCain is boring and old" and "Obama is black and has Hussein in his name"
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All anyone needs to see to know that McCain is fucked is his ad attacking Obama for "spending time at the gym" instead of visiting wounded troops in Germany. When the ad shows "Obama at the gym", it's actually footage of Obama in Kuwait, surrounded BY TROOPS, getting ready to shoot a nothing but net three pointer. Simply put, McCain is running the worst, most pathetic campaign in the history of American politics. He's making Walter Mondale look as inspiring as Kennedy '68. He went negative first, he politicized wounded troops (when he gave a speech on the Senate floor a few months ago saying that troops should never be drug into a political battle), and the voters will see that he's running a much more retarded version of Bush's 2004 re-election race, focusing on anything but the issues. They're tired of the argument being turned away from the issues. Not only that, but we're starting to see an Obama bounce in the polls following the overseas trip, where an American politician was actually EMBRACED and CHEERED by foreigners (including 200,000 in Berlin). Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it desirable to be respected by our allies again? And for anyone who feels Obama might just be a bunch of empty words, read this article "How Obama Became Acting President" http://tinyurl.com/ObamaActingPres
It shows you that his words are creating action -- and he isn't even president yet. -
perhaps this movie will end with 9/11. It shows him dreaming of a chance to be a hero and a crusader and destroy evil doers while watching Masters of the Universe or something. Cut to him on 9/11 reading a book to those school kids. He hear news of New York, utters a brief prayer of thanks, and goes back to reading the book. Cue credits.
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Also the credits roll over "what a wonderful world" or the GI Joe theme from the 80's
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oh well, little too late
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I agree with you bro lets stay in iraq forever fuck all the liberal pussies, lets get ourselves a couple of bruskies, some freedom fries and hate on everyone who is different and doesn't jerk off thinking about the amrican flag and pam andersons boobs at least twice a day. FUCK YEAH.
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Fuck Clinton! and FUCK TERMINATOR BEING A FATHER FIGURE, REPUBLICANS FUCK YEAH
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...but here's another link.
http://tinyurl.com/5dpffyIn case of spaces, delete 'em.For the record, I think this thing will flop. Not because it will be bad (who knows), but who honestly wants to end up spending $20 to see a movie about G.W. when he's still in office? -
Are you serious?
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Here.
http://tinyurl.com/5txxcs
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Jul 28, 2008 12:16:07 AM CDT
has that idiot liberal wanker err warrior posted yet?
by cotton mcknight
just checking.
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Give me a break. TheJazzTerminator's post (and others like it) just reeks of desperation. It's kind of funny almost. I'm not defending Clinton but it's the lamest argument of all in defense of GWB's administration. Without going into detail, I think if you're trying to get GWB out of the cellar as far as the presidents' depth chart, that's fine but it is reallllly transparent when you start pointing at Clinton saying "It was HIM! HE did it!" hahaha. Anyway time will tell I guess but right now most people who study presidencies give Clinton's administration in the B-C range. Wait, don't tell me: They're all liberal pussies.
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I like Oliver Stone movies better when he is on acid while he is filming them. Lets hope this film has Condi in the desert with a Native dude and a snake. that would be trippy
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I love the idea that the Iraq invasion happened because Bush was simply following orders from former President Clinton. Either you're going to have to give Clinton credit or give Bush a demerit SOMEWHERE in there. Something's gotta give! And it's gonna hurt either way ...
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Watching ads for your movie on Youtube is a violation of copyright? ... That kind of logic only leads to poor ticket sales IMHO
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President Clinton did go after bin Laden. And when he did, there were at least a couple Republicans who weren't too thrilled about it.
[Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) stressed the importance of a strong U.S. role in foreign affairs, and criticized the administration for ignoring problems other than bin Laden.
"This administration for the last seven months has neglected compelling national security threats besides this," said McCain, a member of the Armed Services Committee.]
Here's the full Washington Post article: http://tinyurl.com/3yzu4w
So it seems McCain didn't like that President Clinton was spending so much energy on going after bin Laden. So why should I believe he'll be any different than President Bush, who once said of bin Laden, "Well, as I say, we haven't heard much from him. And I wouldn't necessarily say he's at the center of any command structure. And, again, I don't know where he is. I -- I'll repeat what I said. I truly am not that concerned about him."
Just face it, the American people won't be fooled this year by Republicans who claim to be the best suited to handle national security. They've seen the truth. Now they're more worried about the economy than fear-mongering. And as for the economy, guess who said this when asked if the economy is better off now than it was 8 years ago? "I think you could argue that Americans overall are better off - because we have had a pretty good prosperous time…"
If you guessed McCain give yourself a gold star. -
Look at a majority of Stone's films: Wallstreet, evil corporate America; Platoon, evil American war mongers; Nixon, evil American president; JFK, evil Americans killing their president; Natural Born Killers, evil Americans creating more evil Americans.
Come on it's a running Stone theme, it's tired and old, and just as bad as Hollywood's current remake machine because they don't like taking chances on original ideas.
So shit for brains Laserpants: why do still not know the difference between love and hate, conservative and liberal? -
Where exactly did I say that you should see "W" to stick it to the man?
You said you didn't want to see a movie about someone you couldn't care less about.
How could you not give a shit about a President whose administration and policies ruined this country? You should be INFURIATED by this man. But, you "couldn't care less".
So, who's go the blinders on? -
You people are dead wrong on that. I lived in Britain for 6 years, and I kid you not...if I still lived there I would probably be dead today. Their "better" system missed some crucial results from my blood work and proclaimed me fit as a fiddle. Only after I transferred back to the states did I discover they were dead (no pun intended) wrong. Better system my ass.
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It's the night of September 11th, 2001. Bush is sitting alone in the Oval Office. Twelve hours earlier he was reading My Pet Goat to the kids in Florida. In the past hour since being told that Bin Laden is the most likely suspect, he's been assaulted by memories of his wasted life, how he's messed up everything else and how if it weren't for Daddy being there to always bail him out he would be nowhere. Now suddenly, he's in a position where no one can help him at all... and he doesn't have the strength or wisdom to proceed, because he's RUN AWAY from the opportunity to gain that throughout his life.And now he's going to do the only thing he knows to do: he's going to run away again.Bush's hand reaches for an unopened bottle of Jack Daniels. We see the whiskey being poured.Cut to black card, "Directed by Oliver Stone".
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Fuckin A, Bubba. I lived in Canada for a while and government health care SUCKS!!! Most Doctors won't even SEE patients anymore that DON'T pay cash. It is so hard for them to get money that it isn't even worth it. I had to pay cash to get a broken wrist fixed because I would have had to wait a WEEK to get treatment. And god help you if you want a second opinion.
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I dig Platoon, JFK, Natural Born Killers, and Nixon. Everything else by Stone, I pretty much hate. But this should be interesting to watch even if it's bad. Dreyfuss will fuckin' own as Cheney. The best casting in the film in my opinion.
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Then what the hell was "Mission Accomplished" in '03?
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Is a great movie. Just saying.
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Jul 28, 2008 1:36:24 AM CDT
everybody hates Bush but he got over 50% of the vote last time
by rupee88
don't forget that the majority of your neighbors are ultimately responsible for the last four years.
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YouTube already pulled it, but it's still up at TrailerAddict.com.
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When did questioning your countires ethics and political views, so that way we can eleminate flaws and make our country even better than it is...a bad thing?
I mean after all, if the founding fathers were "patriots" like how you used it and never questioned our colonies with "anti-colony libral crap", we would not have an America would we? -
Wow, it took you a long time to google Nic Berg huh? So in what way is being alive in Guantanamo worse than being Nic Berg or Danny Pearl or any of the others? How many people are being prosecuted with evidence gathered in wire tapping? Pwned? You really just typed Pwned? You, Sir, are priceless! Oh and Yatsu, what is so offensive about the name Hussein to you? If B. Hussein Obama gets elected we'll all be calling him H. or Hussein or Hussy if George W. Bush is any indicator. I think Hussein is a beautiful name BTW. Thunderbolt: Fuck Yes I'm serious, the keyword is "living". Those guys are living it up with their heads firmly attached to their necks. They might not have AC but what's a little heat to them?
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Who are your friends from abroad? What are their names? Maybe I know some of them too? Leftist paranoia is also pretty old school so I just thought... oh and you sure seem to know a lot about my family, are you tapping my phone?
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http://tinyurl.com/5enbot another one goes down the shithole
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I never said they were all bad. The point that you missed is that they are still alive, the good ones, the bad ones, the creepy little douche-bag traitor American ones. Hey, since you seem to know which is which why don't you give the base commander a call?
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In the earlier talkbacks I said that this movie seemed pointless, but I have seen the light. I will she that shit opening weekend.
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And I'll go see it.. Tony Blair looks especially hilarious here, WTF??!!
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paranoid -> batshit insane -> oliver stone. platoon was alright, though.
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Seriously, who the fuck cares about this thing? Stone is a hack director who has been producing a long line of true cinematic crap for years and years now, so on a pure film level I have zero interest in this. And I love people defending Stone that even cite the ALEXANDER fiasco, which became an even more laughable affair on DVD. Hey, guys, it's the theatrical cut! No wait, it's the Director's cut so you can see it just the way Oliver wanted! No, wait, scratch that -- it's the Director's Cut Revisited because he changed his mind again! Seriously, how the fuck can you have a Director's Cut AND a Director's Cut: Revisited? That ego-stroking and creatively bankrupt bullshit relative to pumping up home video sales -- to pimp and then RE-pimp failed movies -- has to stop and I do mean NOW.Plus, I agree with others here that IF you're going to try and approach the Bush presidency from any REASONABLE intellectual standpoint than not enough time has passed for history to judge how his 8 years will be truly looked at. I mean for fuck's sake, as an example, I love listening to Liberals rave on about how glorious Jimmy Carter was as a President (compared to Bush) when I'm old enough to actually remember trying to economically survive the piss poor economy of his presidency, not to mention having to sit in long gas lines or having my brain burst over the political and military incompetence of things like the Iranian hostage crisis (followed by the botched rescue mission that left egg on America's face even more). I mean the man was -- and continues to be to this day -- an utter fucking feeble retard, not to mention you had the antics of his beer swilling idiot brother as icing on the cake.And yet Liberals will tell you that you're "missing the point" on Carter and how swell a President he was -- after all he goes out now and builds homes for the poor and... Zzzzzzzzz (snoring). Yet in the very same breath they'll tell you what an utter rat cocksocking bastard Ronald Reagan was, how truly evil he was...how he caused the fall of America or how he is responsible for AIDS and every other evil in the world they can possibly think of -- and yet a national poll from just last year showed that Carter is STILL actually thought of as being WORSE than Bush, and meanwhile Reagan is now ranked by the American public as the nation's THIRD BEST President of all time (after Lincoln and FDR).So the whole issue of "judging" Presidents to me is a crock. It becomes too partisan over too much minutia, and too much bullshit gets tossed around. Let time tell and let's go from there. In the end, the Left will love this movie only to reinforce their hate for Bush and the Right -- and meanwhile the Right will hate this movie because it will reinforce everything they hate about the Left just as much, not to mention it also helps to reinforce their belief about Liberals controlling the media and that they're always willing to hit below the belt with things like this or NIXON. And oh gee! What a shock! Both came from the same shit for brains hack director. So in the end we ALL lose because REAL intellectual discourse is gone because once again talk shows and radio or magazines or whatever will try to ram this thing down our throats as some kind of media event -- and meanwhile here's my guess: THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WON'T CARE. THEY WON'T GIVE A FUCK AND THIS WILL DIE AT THE BOX OFFICE. They'll say "Why the hell are you making a movie about Bush? Who the fuck thinks I want to pay 10 dollars to see a movie ABOUT Bush? The man's leaving office. Fine, maybe he was (or wasn't) such a great as President. But do you REALLY think THIS is my idea of a movie that I want to PAY to see to get out of the house? At the cost of seeing a movie these days?!?"At which point this thing will BOMB LIKE CRAZY at the box office -- and I'll laugh my ass off at the first Liberal here who posts in a talkback: "What the hell is wrong with you people? What is wrong with America? Why aren't you all going to see this insightful examination of the administration? Why won't you all wake up!?" At which point the obvious answer will be: Earth to morons! It's because moviegoers would rather see something starring Angelina Jolie with her breasts hanging out or an animated CGI animal making jokes. Which will bring us right back to the truly honest Hollywood question: who the fuck was stupid enough to ever greenlight and fund this thing? Because I can pretty much bet you now that person is gonna be out of a job by Christmas.Seriously, the one person who had it right in this talkback was someone way back at the beginning who noted why the fuck doesn't Stone simply make a good ORIGINAL movie? Oh, that's right -- IT'S BECAUSE HE'S TOO SHITTY A DIRECTOR TO KNOW HOW.
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The first guy who has a chance to post writes something fuckin stupid like first. Your a fag Laser Pants....Just like George Bush
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People who are so brain-dead that they can be herded like cattle to the slaughter with the right propaganda. Today we call them "red staters".
Economy in shambles while the rich get more tax cuts, unending war, Americans being spied on by their own government without judicial oversight, state run concentration camps in Guantanamo... what's the response of the Fox News sheep?
Stay the course! Right over the cliff! -
I guess I will download this but won't have the stomach to watch the whole thing
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Yes the sheep in the blue states jusr suckle on the teet of msnbc .. it's all the same bullshit on both sides , each have their news and each have their shephards . That's why so many regular people hate liberals . It's the self righteous attitude
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You could make stickers with "approved by Loyal Bushies" for all the secret police jailers to wear from Azerbaijan to China to Zimbabwe.
But why stop at locking people away for years without trial even though you concede some may be innocent ?
Sure, some of them have recieved torture used in the Spanish Inquisition (Waterboarding) and the World Authority on Torture (Amnesty International) informs us that Hundreds languish in cruel, inhuman and degrading conditions, including detainees who have been cleared for release. But at least they don't publicly behead people because THAT is the ultimate act of Barbarity that can never be condoned under any circumstances... unless Dubya is trying to get to second base with their King that is.
Sadly, Saudi Arabia beheads people in public regularly and Dubya doesn't seem to mind so much when they do it does he ?
Ahhh.... double standards.. smell that hypocrisy. -
Stone has made some cracking films and some awful ones as well, but this one looks quite promising. Let's hope its good cause he's long over due
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How come you guys voted him back in after Iraq?
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Wow, you like to assume stuff huh? So, what are you saying that it is worse to be held alive, chilling on a tropical island listening to Metallica and Manowar all day than to be decapitated by hand with a dull knife? Like I said before just tell us which ones are innocent so we can let them go. Stop holding out on me damnit! Also, could you at least try to be coherent or just let the grown ups talk? Oh sorry, is English your second language? I didn't mean to be rude; if you have questions about how to say something, just ask.
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Should read: G100, you try so hard it makes ME happy! Heh heh, stupid.
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Let me get this straight: somehow Bush is "bad" for approving the tactics used at Gitmo, and now you want to add to that by laughably stating (and I quote): "But at least they don't publicly behead people because THAT is the ultimate act of Barbarity that can never be condoned under any circumstances...unless Dubya is trying to get to second base with their King that is. Sadly, Saudi Arabia beheads people in public regularly and Dubya doesn't seem to mind so much when they do it does he? Ahhh...double standards. Smell that hypocrisy.Hypocrisy? Double standards? Gee, I'm sorry -- where EXACTLY are those who lean to the Left or those with Socialist leanings on this one? I'm sorry, I guess I missed all that public global outrage or I somehow slept through all those mammoth protest marches down the streets of major cities for more human rights in Saudia Arabia, where people got up and protested against internal Saudi policy or beheadings. And along those similar lines, where EXACTLY are those impassioned speeches at the UN by other world leaders -- who again lean Left or Socialist -- where they are calling for sanctions against Saudia Arabia all in the grand name of humanity? To decry such "barbarity" as you put it? Gee, I guess I missed the part where all the Left leaning or Socialist countries stood up and publicly declared: "If you do any more beheadings, then we won't do business with you at all! We won't buy your oil ever again!"For crying out loud, GROW UP, G100. If you're going to be such a clueless tool and try to smack the label of "hypocrite" on Bush for looking the other way regarding Saudi policies and beheadings, then at least be HONEST about it and line up all the OTHER world leaders who look the other way as well. Because I can assure you that line will be long and deep since it will be composed of pretty much EVERY OTHER FUCKING NATION IN THE WORLD and THEIR leaders too who want their oil to keep THEIR economies afloat. So think twice next time before you're so willing to label Bush as the hypocrite here...as if he's the ONLY world leader looking the other way...all because you feel a need to jerk off again to your politics. If that's the case and you need to get off THAT bad, go look at some online porn and just be done with it already.
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Bush says he has kept us safe, but 9/11 happened under his watch. Then Bush says that if we elect a Democrat, another terrorist attack will happen. If being attacked by terrorists means "keeping us safe," does that mean we SHOULD vote for a Democrat? Our of the four remaining pro-Bush people, please explain this to me. Without going into diatribes against (insert Democrat) and (insert Democrat)). Thanks.
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Jul 28, 2008 5:10:05 AM CDT
You're trying to denegrate MY use of English Jed ? ME happy too!
by g100
People make typos all the time so it's usually no big thing. However since you hilariously accuse me of having a tenous grasp of language and coherance, with nothing to back up your strange judgement, perhaps you should have checked yourself first.
"If you have questions about how to say something just ask."
You try so hard it make ME happy!
Excellent! And don't worry you have indeed made a few people very happy with that one.
I know it's a bit cruel to laugh but the way you blundered into that was classic NeoCon diversion tactics falling flat and failing miserably.
Your sad little attempt to deflect the main points raised by hurling childish abuse backfired spectacularly but at least to great comic effect.
To answer your Question.(there was one buried in amongst the irrelevant, backfiring, trolling abuse and fantasy drivel)
We find out who are innocent and who are guilty by having something called a TRIAL.
You may have heard of them.
They commonly feature a Judge, a Jury a Defendant and Lawyers.
You could always look it up if you don't believe me. -
read some books - please.
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Who cares what McCain says, JazzTerminator? Did you really just say that? You sound like a true McCain supporter to me then. Good luck with that. As for how this movie should end. If it covers the 8 year span of Bush in office, which I think it should, and if it is released after January 2009, it should end with file footage of Obama's inauguration speech.
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It's a good thing the Loyal Bushies don't try and justify any of their actions on the grounds of human rights abuses by others then isn't it ?
I'm curious, just because you haven't noticed condemnation and
Saudi is an Oil producer does that mean anytyhing goes ?
Would publicly beheading children be fine by you if you didn't see a demonstration or the Oil kept flowing ?
And no Bush isn't the only one to bend over for the Saudis but either point me to where I said he was or take the hysteria down a notch.
Besides the film and thread is about W.
And just because others ignore something reprehensible it doesn't magically absolve Bush for doind the same thing.
It's also a question of degree and few can have failed to notice Bushes "love affair" with King Abdullah.
It also wasn't me who brought up the barbarity of public beheadings via Nicholas Berg.
So try reading the posts next time and you could avoid exploding in amusingly ineffectual rage. -
Difference is I wasn't accusing others of having a poor grasp of English YOU were.
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I don't care for Oliver Stone, but this looks hilarious...
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Olly seemed to do his best work with Richardson (Whatever happened to Robert's plans to film James Ellroy's "White Jazz" btw?) and while I'm a Stone apologist, even I'll admit he hasn't made a truly great film since Nixon, 13 years ago.
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But if you want to try and divert the discussion into trivialities and abuse again, please prove your evasiveness by doing so.
I've already answered the only meaningful question you posed.
Whereas you have conspicuously failed to answer or address any of my points or anyone elses for that matter. -
We just need to wait a few more years.....
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I read somewhere he was actually in favour of bombing Iran too. Since we now know that bombing Middle East countries is all about oil and fuck-all to do with preventing terrorism (how many terrorist casualties on American soil have there been since 9/11? And I don't buy "it's the increased security that prevents it etc etc" because if NORAD can miss two diverted jets for 45 minutes without getting any planes in the air because their radar is pointing the wrong way, I don't buy that NORAD, the FBI etc have suddenly got smart) we can therefore assume that Obama is also in support of global geopolitics involving heavy weaponry in order to take the oil, rather than concentrating on developing hydrogen for fuel, or desalination plants supplying water that can be used for water-powered cars (yep they exist), if Obama gets in you can be pretty sure that the US government will keep up the "fuck everyone else" attitude they've always had in regard to oil, only with a more persuasive and verbose man up front. Plus, he's black ,hence allowing the Government to play the politically correct race card* - Look! We've grown up! Here's a non-Caucasian President!. That's how it looks for me over here in the UK anyway, and I think you might be fucked from all directions because the alternatives are little Bush himself McCain, all-my-opponents-go-suspiciously-missing sneaky Hilary Clinton, or the meet-the-new-boss-same-as-the-old-boss favourite Obama himself.
All I'm saying, put simply, is this: when Obama gets in, it won't be a New Age of world peace. Like Clinton before him, he'll just be better at hiding the shit he does to fuck the world over by simply being a nice guy for the media. The Government will just carry on fucking things up. Meet the new Prez, same as the old Prez - just much more friendly and accessible.
*And before anyone accuses me of racism, I'm saying that the fact Obama will be the first black president will be picked up on, held up and used mercilessly by his own PR team to tell the world that America is so forward thinking after all this "Yee-Haw" Bush business that they can elect a minority President. Who'd a thunk? And then he'll carry on the hegemony while hiding behind a robe of righteousness.
You could say I'm cynical about American politics. But then I'm British/English, so I don't have a fucking leg to stand on when you look at MY Government, fucking shambles that it is :D -
What did I tell ya?
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Those record breaking disapproval ratings haven't scared them all away yet.
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When NBA players are leaving to play in Europe because they can make more money there. Good NBA players, too.
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or a Spitting Image puppet because No Human could possibly act as lobotomised as the real shuffling Buffoon!Or just get THE actual tool himself to star.
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They don't even PRETEND to like the country they rule over! Which is why there has been less than £230 spent over five years by the Government to support St George's day - the national day of England's saint. We actually spend more money on promoting St Patrick's Day, Eid Mubarak, Diwali, Christmas etc than we do on our national day. How fucking patriotic. Our leaders HATE this country, and don't even pretend otherwise.
Sickening. Pigs' snouts in the trough, the fucking lot of 'em. -
For you, personally. I live in a place where Bush, the war and his policies barely touch me. I want to know if all of you Bush haters and lovers can comment on the state of you lives. As far as I can see, the market is cold, the Euro is up. Terror fear is the same, even after so many real hard working soldiers have been fighting against it. Even the hippy's theory that we were securing oil with war seems to be off, look at the gas prices. So I ask all of the posters on this TB, ARE YOU BETTER OFF THAN YOU WERE PRE-BUSH???? I am, but that's because i'm proactive about my life. My country seems more desperate than ever for a leader who makes life better in a more distinct fashion for average hard working Americans. He didn't do it, so OLVER STONE IS CASHING IN ON BUSH'S MISTAKES.
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Didn't you here, he wants to send troops to Afghanistan and Palestine.
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However, everything Oliver Stone has ever done has been a pile of shit, so I won't get my hopes up.
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Oh, I don't know, having a life outside of pwning you on the internet? Let's see, I checked the time, looks like it was 10 minutes? Yeah, I suppose you could look something up on google that quickly. Not that I had to, seeing as how I've had the terrifying Nic Berg video on my hard-drive for several years. And even if I didn't, how does that make my point less valid? Seriously, if YOU want to live in a theocratic fascist dictatorship, why don't you move to one. Odds are they were proxies set up by the US government anyway. Gotta love those proxy dictators! Seems like they're always doing stuff we don't like! I wonder why we keep creating them? Hmm. But let's keep going with this time thing, because I think its funny. If time is a factor for you, how come you didn't respond, lamely, for several HOURS? Yes, thats right, HOURS. And what the fuck are you still doing on here at 2:30 in the fucking morning?! Ahahahaha! Oh man, you must be really, REALLY lonely. Let me guess, you're a morbidly obese middle aged virgin neoconservative christian? No WONDER you're angry! I would be too if I were that pathetic. And no wonder you hate America! You're so unhappy, you want everybody else to be as miserable as you. You would have made a GREAT Brownshirt. Oh, btw, on the topic of war and blind unquestioning allegiance to a corrupt authority, you know there's an endless unjustifiable war going on, don't you? The one waged on false pretenses that is costing us upwards of $10 Billion dollars a month? Thats tax money! YOUR tax dollars! You may as well show your support. Seriously, why don't you be a man, put your jackboot where your mouth is and enlist? Or are you too busy sucking Cheney's cock to do that? Too much of a coward chicken hawk hypocrite, perhaps? I thought so. Why do you hate America, Jed?So, now its your turn. Please do respond, lamely, with flaccid anger, sometime within the next several hours so I can ignore you. Have a nice day!
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I don't think I've ever seen a movie with that many executive producers. Did Stone raise the money for this flick by getting loans from all his drinking buddies in exchange for E.P. credits? How very Ed Wood of him...
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its a serious question. supposed mccain has a heart attack or something and keels over in oct. would the elections be put on hold? or would the republicans have to put up another candidate and let the elections proceed as normal? im just curious is all what would happen
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First, Spud. Uh, Obama doesn't want to attack Iran. He simply isn't taking military options off the table. No president or presidential candidate should ever take military options off the table. He has said that he will do everything in his power to keep them from obtaining nuclear weapons, including TALKING to them. In fact, it was his stance of meeting with hostile leaders without preconditions that caused Hillary and the Republicans to play pile-on with him during the primaries, calling him inexperienced and naive. I worked for the Obama campaign at a University here in Alaska, which has a lot of conservatives, and had to field criticisms daily about his willingness to talk to our enemies before deploying the hometown brigade as a first resort.
And Obama has been one of the leading proponents of alternative energy in America, echoing calls for what you spoke of, E85, hydro-electric, wind energy, etc. He's also come out swinging against McCain's proposal for offshore drilling, which upwards of 60 percent of Americans support but that won't begin to yield results for seven years. So he's not just telling the American people what they want to hear like McCain, he's telling them what they need to hear. In other words, and as exemplified by his opposition to Hillary and McCain's idea during the primaries to temporarily suspend the gas tax (which in the long run would have saved Americans a half tank of gas, a.k.a., a cheap political stunt), his campaign isn't run by poll numbers like McCain's. Obama sticks to his guns for the most part.
Now G-ride 9000, I've heard nothing of Barack wanting to send troops to Palestine. I'm assuming you meant Pakistan. And to clear things up, he wants to send troops, and wants to reiterate Afghanistan's right to send troops, into the mountainous border regions of Pakistan where the Taliban mainly strike from and hide, and where Osama bin Laden is suspected of being to this day. That's why he's not very popular in the Pakistan government.
In other words, Obama isn't a granola cruncher with a daisy tucked behind his ear like most conservative blowhards would have you believe. We have to send more troops to Afghanistan, where the 9-11 attacks were masterminded. Detouring into Iraq has cost us invaluable ground in Afghanistan, and we stand on the cusp of losing complete control there unless we send in more troops like Obama has been advocating for a year and half. And it is a call that John McCain is JUST NOW mimicing. -
By Oct. McCain would have become the official Nominee of the Republican party - currently both he and Obama are presumptive nominees until the conventions declare them. That means he also would have chosen a running mate, who would become the official VP nominee. In the event of McCain dying, the VP nominee of the party would be the natural choice to assume the Presidential nominee spot on the ticket. But, the party could decide to choose someone else. If they believed a stronger candidate existed.
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The election would proceed. The Republicans would have to prop up another candidate. And McCain's health is a legitimate concern, mentally and physically. Just recently, he actually said that Iraq borders Pakistan. He also confused the role of the Troop Surge in the Anbar Awakening, funny considering he's running his whole campaign based on the surge yet doesn't know a thing about it. The supposedly "liberal" media never seems to call him out on these senior moments either, not on the big three nightly news broadcasts anyway. Hell, Katie Couric and CBS even edited McCain's senior moment out of his response when he confused the role of the Troop Surge in the Anbar Awakening.
And, this past February 2007, while he was campaiging for his party's nomination, he failed to disclose to the press or his voters that he had cancerous skin cells removed. Had he done so, his fitness may have been called into question and he might not even be the Republican nominee.
I know you asked a simple question, I guess I'm a jabberjaw. -
The party's would hold a caucus to decide who the new nominee would be. The VP nominee would be the natural choice, but it is not slam dunk.
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not sure if this was mentioned but did you or anyone else read the Huffington Post article theorizing that the Republicans ARE goign to choose another candidate at their convention even if McCain is healthy? You know, because he's tanking so badly in every aspet of his campaign.
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toadkillerdog I missed the Oct part of Mr. X's question. Yes, McCain's VP pick could assume the nomination, but party infighting would make it possible to choose another candidate. Just like if something happened to Obama and his VP pick might be the natural successor, and if his VP wasn't Clinton but instead a little known individual, I'm sure the Democratic leadership would encourage that person to step aside for Clinton, who received the 2nd most votes in the Primary.
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I live in DC and the supposedly "liberal" Washington Post was just called out on the fact that 99% of the time whenever the paper refers to McCain they refer to him as "Senator John McCain" but when referring to Obama they never include his Senatorial title? What up with that WP???
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I love how all of you film-school fags are whining like the Brittany kid over Bush! Also how many of you hold up Obama as some sort of messiah! /snicker! Bush was/is a tool, but not for the reasons you idiots are spewing! Why don't you little boys quit masturbating over CNN and think. The reason we elected Bush in BOTH cases was because the Dem nominee was so fucking reprehensible that he was the better choice! And the media has never forgiven us. They've been telling you all how bad Bush is for 8 years, and too many of you are buying it. Look at Bill Clay. Economy in shambles? Shit, everyone I know is making more money than they ever have, including me. G100 is quick to talk about Bush's poll points, but does he mention that the Democratic-led Congress's approval is about 1/2 of Bush's? Hells no!
Face it, you little bedwetters. Bush sucks, Clinton sucked before him, Daddy Bush sucked, and the list goes on. It won't matter who you elect. We're equally screwed. McCain is a liberal pansy in Republican's clothing and Obama makes Hillary look like a Red-State dream. Think of that. Hillary looks conservative next to the messiah you asshats are drooling over. No matter what we do, we're in for at least 4 years of increasing government so that you film-school droputs can suck on the teat and make MY taxes go up. Thanks! -
Was a good movie. I'm just saying.
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I did not read the Huffington post, but my guess is that it is based on some republican's whingeing over McCain's organization - or lack therof, and lackluster campaign. But I seriously doubt that the leadership would ever make such a change. It would undermine the entire primary process. It would lead to a media feast day about backroom deals and cigar filled brokering etc. etc. It would be a bigger nightmare than if they just lost the election. Remember, Bob Dole was in the same position in terms of lackluster campaign, and organization. And though Dole had more respect throughout the party than does Mccain, I still doubt that party leadership would remove anyone from the top of the ticket unless a health emergency forced it. McCain is healthy. For how long, is anyone's guess. I dismiss so called senior moments because during long campaigns, mistakes happen. Look at Hillary's infamous gaffes.
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Party rules allow for the removal of a nominee. A caucus would be held to determine the new nominee. If Clinton was not the VP nominee, then it is almost inconceivable that she would not get the Presidential nod in the event of tragedy concerning Obama.
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...on AICN was fucking amazingly hilarious. The rather sad-clownish effect was a little too much to bear. Kind of like Robert DeNiro's face in the Cape Fear remake where they give him the "full cavity search". Unintentionally hilarious.
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just got a DUI!!! Bwa-HA HA HA HA
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X-Men Origins: Cheney!
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I'll wait for another trailer. That does not make me interested at all. I'm sure there are much more interesting stories Stone could be making.
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Considering how bad Jimmy Carter sucked, that's saying something. George W. Bush is a buffoon who filled the ranks of goverment with a bunch of inept loyalists, added 2 trillion to the debt and steered Medicare even more quickly toward backruptcy than it was already headed and killed 4,000 Americans and untold numbers of Iraqis and he took the entire Republican party down with him ... I guess he's not all bad.
If there is a hell, Geroge W. Bush will be burning there. The truth hurts, especially when told to all of the closeted homosexuals and undersexed housewives that make up the majority of the Republican party. -
as the old man.
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I was talking about the prescription drug benefit ... but feel free to continue defending the worst president in the last 100 years.
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This was tried 4 years ago. I believe the movie was called Farenheit 911. The election that followed turned out pretty well! Seriously, President Bush towers over most of his critics in ways they don't understand.
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He's got a 20% approval rating and that is laughably bad. Hell, 20% of Americans can't name the current vice president, so that tells you how freaking stupid 20% of the country is. If you support George W. Bush and think he's doing a good job after all that he's done, you're a fucking idiot. Do us all a favor and get snipped because the last thing you should do is reproduce. The an inspiration for birth control and the reason abortion should and will remain free legal and easy.
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to a major Hollywood director?Nevermind. I'm sorry fellas, but that trailer looked like something you'd see on U.S.A. network. Cheap and cheesy. Regardless of the subject matter, it looks like crap. Oliver Stone is light years away from his "Born on the Fourth of July" prime. Sad.
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Is a good movie. I'm just saying.
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What is it with the endless excuses ? Grow a pair and accept responsibility for once.
Clinton would have wiped the floor with Bush if he could have run again instead of Gore in 2000. He left office with 68% approval ratings. So the revisionism isn't any more convincing than "it isn't Bush's fault he's only the President."
Who has done the most to tarnish Clintons reputation after office ? That would be CLINTON. With his less than stylish electioneering for Hillary.
But if the Loyal Bushies (the term was made famous at the Justice Department grueman) keep trying to shift the blame to Clinton for every single disaster of the past 8 years then Bill is gonna get REAL popular again in a hurry. People just love the Loyal Bushies and their excuses these days. Haven't you heard ?
Even McCain doesn't want the cameras around when he meets with Bush. And the GOPs entire election strategy in November can be summed up in four words. Pretend Bush doesn't exist.
Of course, as this talkback shows, that will prove impossible as FOX and Friends will ensure the News will be all Bush all the time in November as they work themselves into apoplexy and hysteria over this Movie.
As for the actual Movie, going by the trailer it's the family based "coming of age" many expected but the overall tone still isn't that clear. -
duhhhhhhh
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Come now anchorite don't be shy. You were only just telling people how you thought Bush is actually Batman and you agreed with every word of the lunatic from the Wall Street Journal.
The Batsignal ! it looks like... it looks like.... a W.!!! That explains everything! EVERYTHING!!! -
Actually, all polls show that the VAST majority of Americans hate Bush. So that means you red state sheep are no longer the "regular people". You're now officially the minority.
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You can see the paralells between Batman's vigilantism and Bush's foreign policy but Batman a.) didn't blow up the wrong country, and b.) took responsibility for his actions by actually taking the blame.
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Someday he'll have a wax figure in Madam Tussauds, next to Adolph Hitler. And the current Bushies will be lying to their grandchildren, "Oh no, I never voted for him! We all knew he was bad! Somebody else voted for him, not me!"
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Give us more of your sidesplitting black stereotypes about Obama anchorite.
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Jul 28, 2008 12:58:37 PM CDT
reading is ELITIST anchorite. Hasn't the GOP told you that yet ?
by g100
I'm guessing your constant sad little posturing where you attempt (but fail) to talk down to anyone disagreeing with you stems from a raging insecurity complex.
But who can say ? That would be like hypothesizing over why so many of Dubyas supporters have melted away over the years to be replaced by the droves of...
"I always hated Bush but McCain seems fine." (the same as Bush) -
They will move heaven and earth to drop the bar on Foreign candidates. Thus clearing the way for arnie to get his presidential shot. and it all makes sense. Arnie is a moderate. He is not bush. He will be very easy script for. Obaaaaaaaama willll be turhminated. And if arnie loses he can always say hell be bach. To qoute Homer J simpson said we salute you now dont come back.
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Commmander Cuckoo Bananas.
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I think that people who still defend Bush and his policies are a lot like the people who still claim that the Phantom Menace was any good. Either you're lying with your defending, or you're completely bugfuck insane and you have no footing in reality whatsoever.
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He's still out there you know. waiting... always waiting...
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Jul 28, 2008 1:14:43 PM CDT
JizzSperminator should really do the world a favor
by hawaiian organ donor
And stab himself repeatedly in the neck with a rusty chainsaw while standing waist deep in shark infested water.
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Congress has a lower rating than Bush because they have done nothing to stop him since the Democrats got in power in 2006, and people are really pissed off about that. It's not because they're Democrats, it's because they're balless, spineless Democrats. Although some would say that there isn't a difference. I would never defend someone like Nancy "impeachment is off the table" Pelosi. She's a bum who oughta be kicked out and replaced with Cindy Sheehan this November. Although it'll never happen. As long as Pelosi pretends to be a true progressive for the next few months, she'll fool enough of the voters to keep screwing them for the next few years.
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Really looking forward to Stone's take on Douchebag, I mean that jackass that way too many people voted for last election.
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So, what? I thought you were supposed to be telling me who your foreign friends are; what are their names? Where do they live? LaserPants, LaserPants, LaserPants... You are my new favorite toy.
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Not a partisan point because both parties seem strangely reticent on the subject these days.
What's happened to make the Vice Presidency and bottom of the ticket barely worth a mention in the Campaigns ?
Perhaps it's just all being saved for the Conventions. -
I don't know if you caught this but there was a typo in the subject line of my last response. I thought it was pretty funny so I corrected myself in the next post, did you notice? Hey, you added paragraph breaks! Now your incoherent babbling is easier to read, good for you! Dude, the best thing about people like you is how easy it is to get under your skin, I ask a few simple questions and you totally lose it. I hope you're always on the internet, you make it fun.
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Face the facts. For good or ill, GWB will be remembered as the first man who truly stood up and fought the enemies of Western Civilization. If the outcome goes well, he’ll be hailed as one of our hero Presidents and the savior of the West. All other foibles and mis-steps will be forgotten. You know this is true. Think about it, the man who the limp-wristed Left H-A-T-E-S, a H-E-R-O to your children. I think there are some liberals who already realize this possibility, so they are making a concerted effort to preemptively frame the story and paint him as “The worst President in history”. This, of course, will backfire. Once the GWB Presidency has receded into history, this premature, malicious and infantile mischaracterization will open the door to a slew of scholarly historical writings that will attempt to correct the record and establish his proper place in history. Academics just love that sort of thing. Think about all the legendary names in American history and how they are portrayed today. Few people know about the foibles, and mis-steps of the great American Presidents, but if you do a little research, they all had them. George W. Bush will be no different. Sure, GWB is not perfect, far from it, but that will make him all the more endearing to future generations. There is no better story than the flawed champion. A late bloomer, inarticulate, not entirely bright, but with a singular vision that no one else could see, fighting an enemy, alone, with no one at his back except for those with a dagger in their hand and malice in their heart. It will be a great story and the Left will be the villains.
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oliver stone doesn't even have to make an effort here - bush's life is the funniest 'rags to riches' story ever conceived. you couldn't make it up.
now, you yanks - especially the republican inbred ones who base their whole morality around superstitious claptrap - better not let the world down come election time. vote Obama and save us all a further 4 years of misery. we're counting on you! -
You've tried the same "I really like it when you post because I find it funny" HOW many times now ?
It's not working Jeb. Try finding a different shtick.
DAMN! I just made another typo Dude! Oh well I'm glad I didn't predict you would return to such irrelevancies or you might jump all over that.
Thus proving... what exactly ? Typos make Bush a great President ? Yes, that makes perfect sense Dude.There were always paragraph breaks in my posts. Dude, you should totally try them.
Sorry, you don't seem to be having much luck do you ?
Another irrelevance, another failure. -
That way the Congress will finally have the power to do the things that the American people want, like banning all domestic oil exploration, opening our borders to any and all immigration, cracking down on freedom of speech with the Fairness Doctrine and giving us a genuine Soviet-style healthcare system that will make the DMV look like Starbucks on a Wednesday afternoon. Can't you just smell the HOPE?
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And completely lack the compassion of NIXON. I think it will portray him as a conflicted, frustrated, infantile man who could never quite make his dad happy, that being the driving force behind all his ambition. When he becomes president, he'll be portrayed as stepping into the ultimate nightmare scenario and being totally incapable of handling it. However, there is one irrefutable fact... 9-11 did not repeat itself. However shitty a president he is, no matter how misguided many of his policies are, it's still a "just dumb enough to work" scenario. We haven't been attacked.
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Is a good movie, i'm just saying.
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Fred think that not an accurate way of describing Presidency as success or not - that we not get attacked since 9/11. It sets the bar too low. Fred agrees that taking war to terrorists in afghanistan hurt their ability to hurt us, but that what any President would have done. Going into Iraq on the other hand...
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Schoolkids everywhere sing hosannas in praise of Nixon and his endearing traits.
There are statues in Capital Cities around the World showing Nixons proud yet crazy countenance turned upward... his claw like hand reaching... reaching for those stars!
Or does he just seem like a loveable Rogue in comparison to the Bush Administration ? -
Yup, that's right, our children will look back on Bush as a hero, a saviour to Western Civilization. When they are stuck with the check for history's most expensive meal (18% gratuity to be added on) and the middle class can no longer retire because they wiped out their 401K's through hardship loans and Social Security pays them barely enough to pay the rent, they will indeed look back on the presidency of George W Bush and say "Thank you for bringing Democracy at the end of a gun to the Middle East at the mere expense of our own infrastructure and the pursuit of happiness. Bang up job, Mr. Bush, we owe you one."
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I agree that Iraq is a monumental fiasco, but really, how low is the bar when you're just trying to avoid being attacked BUT your enemy doesn't play by the rules and numbers in the hundreds of thousands?
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Fred think it pretty remarkable that prior to the first bombing at World Trade center back in 1990's that there had not been any domestic terror. At least not from foreigners. Fred give credit where due. But Fred also think terrorists make long term plans. It make more sense to attack when country is in transition or when we let guard down.
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that was funny.
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Yeah, I get the Bush hate, but give me a fucking break. Footage portraying W. as a whacked out, drunken fiend is hardly accurate. He's a questionable PRESIDENT, not the idiotic incarnation of Satan himself. Get a grip.
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Keep that in mind, and keep it civil.
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You broke my rule of not going on a predictable Clinton rant to defend Bush, but that's okay. I have new questions: 1) If 9/11 is the fault of the president before Bush (Clinton), does that mean if we elect Obama, and get attacked, it will be the fault of the President before Obama (Bush)? 2. Does the blame for bad things go to all Democrats, or just all Democrats? 3. That Dizzy Old Guy With The Stepford Wife is a completely different person than he was in 2001. How do we know he won't transform again, if he's elected? Much thanks.
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Holy. Shit. Are you serious? Like ninjas and zombies and shit? what a guy!
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Is the Dark Knight. This is how we treat our heroes in reality.
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Because they already agree with everything. It's sickening to see propaganda being used for cheap laughs. Propaganda used to have such a feared purpose in our world, now it's tarted up in clown make-up and paraded around for all the plebes in the cheap seats.
Conservatives will hate this movie, even if they themselves hate Bush (as I do) because deep down, they'll know that this movie isn't about making fun of Bush, not really, anyway, it's really about making fun of anyone who's called themselves a conservative in the last 8 years. It's finger-pointing, it's schoolyard mockery. It's exactly the same kind of shit that Liberals hate when it's done to them.
All I seem to find these days in political discussions is hypocrisy, one side criticizing the other for petty crimes perpetrated by everyone.
We should all fucking grow up, this movie is for the stupid among us. -
It’s kinda funny how America managed to survive WWII, with its massive cost in lives, resources and equipment, yet the Left want us to think we’re all doomed because of a few years of driving humvees around the desert. Not.
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This should end Stone's career if it's not already over, looks like crap, especially in light of the success in Iraq
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Are you off your meds again? Batman isn't real. Bush might be in fine shape for a president, but he's old as dirt, Batman runs around on rooftops and swings from grappling hooks and stuff. and, he ISN'T REAL.
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Did we win the war? ALRIGHT! It's over! It's over! yaaay!
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Are you Samsquanch? Did you read the article in the Wall Street Journal. Are you saying stories, even comic book stories, which is modern day myth , have no truth to communicate? Batman's not real? That's a brilliant observation on your part. Get a life.
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I think you're a fucking moron.
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YOu just hate being wrong, don't you , lol
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Jul 28, 2008 2:36:22 PM CDT
White House predicted a record deficit of $490 billion for 2009
by freds_balls_in_a_mason_jar
President Bush inherited a budget surplus of $128 billion when he took office in 2001 but has since posted a budget deficit every year.
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At least he doesn't resort to bashing Bill Clinton in some poor excuse for a defense of GWB. A straight up defense, however myopic it may be, is actually a relief after JazzMaster's bizarre Clinton obsession.
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No, it's not over. We must maintain a presence, but there is undeniable success. Read this AP article:http://tinyurl.com/6n8lgw
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I posted it as you were posting yours. didn't intend for it to be read that way. I just think you're a moron, whatever your response happens to be.
As for being wrong, wrong about what? That Batman isn't real? Wow. That would be the dumbest debate ever, wouldn't it? I just think you don't like being called stupid. Good luck. -
Why don't you make fun of Obama's name some more, genius?
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Jul 28, 2008 2:49:08 PM CDT
cantankerous, you're not really that clueless, are you?
by hawaiian organ donor
A few years of driving Humvees in the desert? OK, you officially have no credibility so STFU and leave this TB. Better yet, go choke on a bag of neocon cocks.We're not just driving humvees but building the largest bases ever constructed on foreign soil. 100,000+ troops need food, water, shelter and other basic services every minute of every hour. And in order to keep Iraq in check, we'll need every single one of those troops on the ground. That's an indefinite expense. A billion dollars a week for years and years to come. At some point that line of credit will run out. A few humvees in the desert. Seriously, what an insult to the troops we have over there.And if you weren't such a piece of ignorant, illiterate filth, you would know that in WW2, the country came together to fight the war. Corporations switched production lines from making consumer goods and made almost nothing but equipment and vehicles for the war effort. Pride was put ahead of profit, something Haliburton and Blackwater know nothing about.And if you would take just a minute of your time and stop giving fellatio to barnyard animals and look at the current state of our retirement funds, you would see how a frightening amount of Americans are taking money out of their 401K. That's pre-tax money they will have to pay back WITH tax in an unreasonable time frame that will end up costing them enormously due to penalties. Also, the majority (something like 60%) of young people entering the work force today will have nothing put away for retirement.I beg you, if you live near traffic, please go play in it. The world will be a better place with you as a speed bump.
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You are a scary person.
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Great. Another Boomer with nothing new to say. Just paste the Nixon template on the next guy. I am waiting for the Hippy/Disco/Yuppy generation to retire to assisted living and finally get out of the way.
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Who would take great personal offense at that post of yours. They're dead, however, so we'll have to argue for them.
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Oliver Stone's the rare filmmaker with something to say.
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Elect Barack H. Obama.
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Blah, blah, blah. A few really big military bases and cheese burgers for 100,000 troops are going to bankrupt America? Give me a break. Where are the columns of tanks being destroyed in combat? The skies black with American bombers, shot down by the hundreds per mission. Thousands of American troops killed in every major engagement with the enemy. Massive battles at sea, the ocean floor littered with American ships? You think that American industry build tanks and ships and aircraft out of the goodness of their hearts with no consideration to profit during WWII? LOL. Throw your scary big numbers at someone who doesn’t know any better. I’ve seen it all before. This economic “crisis” will pass like all the others and you’ll quietly slink away until the next “crisis” under a Republican President. Then the sky will be falling again. Give it a rest.
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Obama's a turkey, McCain's a turkey, every single politician beholden to corporate interets is a turkey. From time to time a guy like Chuck Hagel will come along and impress the hell out of us, but eventually they turn into a McCain or Obama who do and say anything to get elected.Pelosi, Bush, Reid, Cheney, they all suck. Not a shred of integrity among any of them.Besides, quit wasting your breath. Come November, this country will do the same thing it's always done. Put a rich white old man in the White House. Just like Haagen Daaz after a breakup, it's comfort food, even though we know it's bad for us.
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As Colbert put it in his metaphor, you are the backwash of our nation. Go away.
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"Come November, this country will do the same thing it's always done. Put a rich white old man in the White House. Just like Haagen Daaz after a breakup, it's comfort food, even though we know it's bad for us."
Damn that depressed me. Despite it being hilarious, it's pretty much true.
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You know we live in a different world, now, right? That the American economy is a different animal than it was in the 40's, correct?
And what makes you think America isn't already bankrupt? From someone who 'knows better', you don't seem to know much. Who owns America's debt? Oh, that's right, Saudi Arabia and China. They're our friends! -
Don't count on it.
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Wow. Progressive.
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I'm done with your worthless arse. Pick up a history book. And no, "Curious George Leans About Reaganomics" doesn't count.Those military bases and cheeseburgers (you are such a simpleton) are costing us $12B a month. That money is all borrowed. So we have to pay back the interest too (which will probably top $1T if we're there another 10 years). Those are some mighty expensive cheeseburgers, jerkoff.You think in a-hole terms, dude. Someone who thinks that wreckage and explosions are the only mark of cost in a war isn't fit to lift up a toilet seat for fear of falling in a drowning.On second thought, why don't you go take a bathroom break.
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He is the epitome of the political lightweight, riding a wave of feel-good popularity. His cult of personality will soon pass as the election draws near and people start to look at him through a pragmatic eye. His crash to earth, and the subsequent mental breakdowns among his supporters, will be epic. You thought Bush Derangement Syndrome was a hoot? You’ve seen nothing yet.
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There's a nice looking hole in the ground over here. looks about big enough to stick your head in it.
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I'll still vote for Obama, cuz anybody's better than McSame, but Obama was easily my fourth choice, so I'm not exactly fainting in heat for the guy.
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I have to ask ...which organ have you donated? The one in your skull?
“Humvees” and “cheeseburgers” are shorthand for equipment and supplies. Anyone who thinks that the “war” in Iraq is even remotely comparable to the economic, resource and human costs of our previous major wars is just not thinking clearly. It's not even close. We survived those, we'll survive this one. And the world will be a better place because of it. .... Hey, if you hurry, maybe you can get that organ back. You kinda need it.
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Ha, ha ha. I am still chuckling over the GWB being a hero President and Savior of the West line from your post. Well, first, that is nothing but a neocon wet dream. If Iraq does indeed stabilize - after we have withdrawn, it will be a very good thing - for the Iraqis. But in the grand scheme of things, it will not really amount too much. I understand the Neocon argument it goes something like this: If we stabilize Iraq, remove the dictator, plant the seeds of democracy, show the rest of the middle east that there is another way- the American way, and of course pave the way for American interests, the world will love us. Umm, nope. You see, even if Iraq stabilizes after we have gone - and there is no doubt it will take some fighting before that happens, what you will get is a stable Iraq surrounded by The Saudi Arabian monarchy. They aint going anwhere. A tiny Kuwait. An ultra religious Iran. A still hostile Syria. A bunch of smaller countries that already like us such as Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan etc. and what? Pakistan and Afghanistan. Well, we are fighting in Afghanstan now. And Pakistan is inching ever closer to harsher and harsher rule - moving away from American interests as Musharaff loses power. Yes, I am leaving out Egypt and all of the western middle east countries. But for now, lets concentrate on the bigs. The hope is that a stable democratic Iraq makes people in other middle eastern countries rebel and embrace demcocracy. The big targets being Syria and Iran -with Pakistan thrown in the mix now. That aint gonna happen. The last time the people of Iran rose up, it was to dethrone the Shah - the American backed Shah. They chose Khomeini. Some - quite a few probably, regret it, but that was their choice. The only way we can overthrow the current regime - is to start another war. That aint happening. We are stretched too thin, and Bush is on the way out. Same goes with Syria. Make that 'left turn' into Syria and fight another war, because there os no hope of destabilizing that country. Pakistan is making deals with Al Qaida on it's borders. Afghanistan is getting harder and harder to control. We can not go to war with every country we disagree with in the middle east. You are right about the cost of the war not being a severe crisis. We can absorb it. For now. But if we are embroiled in another war, for another seven years and this time against a country that can mount a credible defense - oh we would still crush them, but it would not a simple matter. And once again, we would be dealing with guerrila acttivity and terrorists. And that would just be Iran. What would we do about Pakistan? No, Bush will not be hailed as the next Ronald Reagan. He might not even make it out of Jimmy Carter country.
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The organ I donated to science was my appendix, which like you, is completely and utterly useless.Like someone said above, you are a jerkoff because you are not thinking in modern terms. Our economic situation is not the same as it was in the 40s. The world is a different place.
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Hey long time no see, sunshine!
So tell me, what do you think of the current economic climate? Still think there's "not much recessing" going on? And did you enjoy Zohan? Did he fulfill all your fantasies as you envisioned them?
Side note: We are now witness to the results of Rupert Murdoch buying the Wall Street Journal: comparisons of Bush to Batman, and endless quoting from assorted wingnuts like Antonius. Money well spent, Murdoch! -
Jul 28, 2008 4:11:58 PM CDT
Cant, it's all so clear now. by 'survive', you literally mean
by samsquanch
survive.
That's what happened here. The entire economy, every single industry switched gears, did a 180 and became one gigantic war machine. The entire country altered itself to one sole purpose for existing, to produce war materiel. Much of what changed stayed altered. Every single citizen was asked to participate, and pay, through war bonds, for the effort. There was also conscription, don't forget. One more thing too, that war was a noble effort, with a real enemy, and a righteous purpose.
So, if you want to compare the two, you might want to give the topic a moment's thought. Not that you make a habit of that. It seems like you're too busy apologizing for one of the most significant wrong turns this country has ever taken. -
Cue Jeffersons theme, because Obama is coming to the White House!!!
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I don't get the excitement over it. Watchmen trailer, OTH, rocks.
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And sitting back waiting for the carnage! Fred all a tingle!
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Bringingsexyback no like what he find. Shame on Fred.
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UNABATED!
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hehe.
hiya BSB. -
Please do not blab that around the internet Mr. BringingSexyBack. Fred not want it known that Fred likes melted gummi bears on Fred's popcorn. Fred knows that is freaky, but Fred can't help it.
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Sipping soda and munching on gummi flavored buttered popcorn.
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There's plenty of source material to draw on for a rise to power story. He could even end up making W. a sympathetic character. The book, "Bush's Brain" alone would be enough for an HBO movie-of-the week. But if he tries to rehash 2000 to 2008, it'll fail.
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without being disagreeable. some of you dudes have blown your kuffel valves.
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I know it's fun to watch the NeoCons and Loyal Bushies dig themselves ever deeper, however the thread IS about the Movie.
It's going to have to be a Movie of two halves pre and post 2000. And though there may be political obsessives who know every detail of Bush's earlier life including his Texas Governorship it hasn't been presented chronologically with the "highlights" in a narrative.
I actually doubt Stone will be as obsessed post 2000 as everyone thinks he will because it's common knowledge. Sure he'll cover the obvious bits but He's more likely to cast the events in relation to the less know Bush years tying in Bush senior to it all.
Whether it will make a good Movie is still anyones guess but the early years are going to be new to many people so it'll be interesting for that alone. -
How can this movie not be funny? Stone doesn't even have to invent dialog, actually he shouldn't, because nobody is smart enough to invent the Bushisms he's spouted out over the last decade.
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heh.
Pleeeeeease let Romney reappear. This Campaign sorely needs his magic underpants. -
“…that is nothing but a neocon wet dream.” ........But at least it is a dream, something to aspire toward. For too long the Middle East has been in totalitarian limbo. Ol’ Georgie-boy decided to shake things up a bit. If it works out, he will go down in history as a legendary American hero. If it does not, he won’t. It’s as simple as that. I see a light at the end of the tunnel, I support the people who work toward that light, and I am hopeful. I wonder if folks like yourself, Hawaiian Organ Donor and others are so consumed by partisanism, bitterness and vitriol that you hope for the worse. I think that many Liberals do hope for the worse and they must be denied.
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at the beginning of ww1 britain was undeniably the worlds number one superpower. at this time america had more land, resources and people and consequently more potential but britain had had the top spot for some time and had a lot of 'stored' money and power. America did not enter the war until 1917. it started in 1914 and ended in 1918. during the interim it was selling munitions, mostly to britain and france. This was being funded by loans. when the war ended it largely called these loans in (while germany just basically went bankrupt and paid no one anything). The consequence was that by sitting out the war and building up its industry it became the worlds super power. America has largly funded the war in iraq through loan from china. I think they are holding something in the order of one trillion us dollars in reserves. They have sat this one out and built up their industry while the us has gone further into debt. there is a long way to go before they can overtake the us, but recent events have helped them.
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Sorry to tell you guys - I know Obama looks like the safest bet, certainly compared to Hilary "I KEEEEL YOU!" Clinton and John "little Bush" McCain, but Obama really is coasting on being Democrat, being charming, not being a Republican or a Clinton, and being black. Don't rule these out - they're all powerful weapons to play in a political battle such as this - but we had this in the UK when Tony Blair came into power in 1997. Everything had gone to the dogs, the country was up to its neck in shit, and a young, charismatic guy came in and said all the right things to make us forget - and he smiled a lot. The fact he was one of the youngest PM candidates in years may have helped. Nevertheless, he got in, and only now, 11 years later, is the real truth beginning to sink in: Tony Blair and New Labour = old Tory. Labour were now for the rich, not the poor, as the Tories before them.
You wanna know what's really scary? The Lib Dems are getting a foothold, but not enough for a serious attempt at the Premiership. This leaves Gordon "Boring Bastard" Brown, or David "Young, smug, grins a lot" Cameron. And the country is actually buying Cameron's bullshit, EXACTLY like they did with Blair, because he's (a) not Brown, (b) not Labour and (c) see (a) and (b) again. And when he gets in - and he WILL - it will be EXACTLY what happened with Blair all over again.
This is why I see Obama getting in, and then being completely fucking ineffectual: because Western politics are all about grabbing what you can before you leave office, not giving a fuck about the office you hold. Blair basically ran for PM so he could command payments worth 5 years of the PM role for one after-dinner speech. Yep: 5 years salary as PM = one payment for an after-dinner speech in certain situations. No wonder politics is so fucking corrupt in the West.
Sorry folks: Obama is the best of a bad bunch - but still bad. He won't be as bad as Bush - but do you REALLY think he can sort out the mess the Bushes will leave?
Time will tell... -
I have no doubt whatsoever that there will be a small faction of die-hards that will see Bush in this way, and gradually alter their memories and history to suit the image.
Luckily, these are the same people that choose to live in underground bunkers and have very little to do with the outside world, waiting as they are for Elvis to return with his Alien Overlords to wipe out all the Jews and re-instate Jesus as King of America (which will be the new name for planet Earth). Say hello to the family for us. -
We tried that once before, in 1953 with Operation Ajax in Iran. We did a little regime change and installed a government more friendly to us, sound familiar?
The same right-wing cheerleaders were crowing back then too about how safer the world was. Until the Iranian people rose up 25 years later and kicked us, becoming our sworn enemies and starting on the path to nuclear proliferation.
And make no mistake, we haven't won anything in Iraq. The surge can't last forever unless we want to bankrupt our economy for good. As soon as there is no longer a US tank sitting on every corner keeping the peace, the Iraqi people will rise up and overthrow the puppet government we've installed.
Saddam Hussein was allowed to stay in power after Gulf War I because he filled a vacuum that we will never be able to. Bush Sr. understood that, Bush Jr. didn't. -
to the point.
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What on earth are you blathering about? The bottom line is that America spent far more in blood and resources during WWII than we have on Iraq, and we came out of that conflict smelling like roses, economically speaking. To think that a few years of screwing around in the desert, without a single major enemy engagement, is going to bankrupt us, well, it’s just laughable beyond words. Hell, our casualties and equipment losses have barley been above the accident rate and normal wear and tear during peace time, fer crying out loud. Sell your falling sky on another street corner, brother. I ain't buying.
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This movie is going to be about as popular as the current Democrat-controlled Congress.
For those keeping track, that’s:1.) The worst approval rating in history for a sitting Congress2.) Even worse than Bush’s approval rating
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Jul 28, 2008 5:50:00 PM CDT
Hope ! If only there was a Presedential Candidate who embodied t
by g100
Sorry you can't have it both ways. You dismiss Obama for hollow Hope rhetoric about how things could be so much better then immediately follow that with a naive feelgood Rainbow portrayal of How Bush will be seen in the future (presumably when the damn dirty apes have taken over) using exact same terms.
For the record I don't buy all the Hope Hype for Obama. He's a classy Orator but also a blank slate for those who want change to project whatever they want to see onto him.
I also don't buy the sunny, everything will turn out lovely, assesment of Iraq and not just because the same people who talked about flowers in the streets and being greeted as liberators & "Mission Accomplished" are the same ones feeding the Media that line.
Iraq is now a target for 3 countries. Saudi Arabia, Iran and Turkey.
All of them are fighting or preparing to fight in wars & proxy wars involving the Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds.
It's common knowledge that the whip hand is held by the shiites in the Government and they are being supported through the Militias and death squads by Iran.
The Sunnis equally are getting support from Saudi Arabia but not quite on the same scale as Iran though they have threatened to flood the Sunni enclaves with Arms and fighters whenever the U.S. leaves.
The Kurds meanwhile are trying to lay claim to the Northern Oil Fields and break away, into semi then full autonomy as quickly as they can, hoping the rest of Iraq won't notice. While Turkey and the PKK are constantly skirmishing over territory and independence.
Does that sound like a recipe for Democracy taking hold in the Middle east any decade soon ?
And lets also remember that on the ground in Iraq it is the Militias and Death squads of all the factions calling the shots and enforcing brutal Fundamentalist Sharia Law.
The Governing Authority in the Green Zone is sadly still little more than window dressing and a sideshow until security is re-established with a functioning Police and Army that ALL sides trust. -
'screwing around in the desert', huh? Why don't you talk to someone who's been there. There are a few people on these boards who are or were in the service, I'd love to listen to what they would have to say to you. You're contemptible.
If you still can't wrap your head around the fact that WW2 happened over 60 years ago, and that in that intervening lifetime some of the rules have changed, you're not a very bright person, and not worthy of debate. Better, smarter posters than I have tried to teach you something, but you remain dull and dense.
What constitutes 'a few years'? 10? 50? 100? I wonder. Your sense of national pride and patriotism have mutated into some kind of fanciful sense of entitlement, you honestly believe that America is #1, in every way, and always will be, no matter what? You're in for a shock, little boy.
As for what you 'buy' check out some news source other than FOX, and if you can stand to listen to someone who doesn't hold the exact same mannerisms, accent, values, and appearance as you, you might actually learn something. You're the perfect example of the willfully ignorant- the stupid American. The sad thing is that you're as proud of your own stupidity as you are of the flag. You make the rest of us look bad.
Shut your mouth for 5 minutes and listen to someone else talk, you just might learn something, if you're still able. -
The Congress is unpopular because they've been ineffectual in dealing with Bush.
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I know very well what 1979 was like, I was already in the work force paying my taxes. And poor Jimmy Carter had to deal with the ugly aftermath of Operation Ajax's illegal regime change, he wasn't responsible for it.
When will the War Hawks finally realize that that when you go around the world screwing over other countries' sovereignty you will plant the seeds of hatred that will haunt us for generations? 9/11 was one bad seed that came back to haunt us, thanks to former CIA employee Osama bin Laden. -
How is Bill a defeatist? Is it less 'defeatist' to choose a different, more self-congratulatory way of remembering history? If you don't like what you hear, do you stick your fingers in your ears and holler?
There's a recipe for success. -
I mean, we had loud-mouthed Socialist filmmakers like Michael Moore releasing stuff during the last election and Bush won AGAIN - by a larger margin than he beat Al Gore IF he beat Al Gore (a lot of people still don't think he really did). This will probably help the Republicans - impotent Democrats bitch and moan about everything and the most they can do to change anything is... make a movie? Huh? No wonder congress has been so ineffective combatting Bush's policies - besides the fact that their majority is too small and they can't afford to be nearly as liberal behind closed doors as they can during election times. Seriously, I'm no longer any fan of Bush, Jr. - the Iraq war HAS taken big tolls on the U.S. and only worsened the terrorism situation - but anyone who thinks either a Democrat OR a Republican president is going to solve this thing in even a remotely smooth or "peaceful" manner just because he's not "Dubya" is just as delusional as anyone that thinks Bush is still a good president. I've got my own reasons for not liking Bush, one of which being that Republicans are supposed to limit government power and intervention, but Bush has only expanded it to fulfill his own whims. He's NOT what a Republican or any American conservative ought to be, and if he were any kind of Reagan Conservative he wouldn't have gone to full-blown war and, if he did, he certainly would have done so with a much better plan for success. But the left, in its desperation, has become so extreme and idealistic that 1.) If elected, its representatives in government will invariably disappoint, and 2.) It's got people like Obama spouting idiotic statements like the one a while back to the extent that he'd withdraw troops from Iraq, but then put them back if Al Quaeda moved in. Well, guess what? Al Quaeda's been there FOR YEARS and is just now moving to Afghanistan which, I doubt by coincidence, is where Obama now plans to move troops from Iraq if he wins the Presidency (as opposed to pulling them all out, which is what you liberals probably thought he'd do - idiots). Anyhow, Stone can do whatever he wants and if he or any of you think that his one movie is going to affect the deep-pocketed Republican party (which has consistently taken the "working class middle-America" states whose best interests the Democrats claim to represent) one iota then, pardon the pun, but you're perpetually stoned out of your mind.
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Back up on YouTube...
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can't people just argue a fucking point without delving into vitriol? both sides. fuck.
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...don't have to worry about repeating it, they can pretend it never happened!
Hey, 9/11 occurred out of thin air! Those evil doers hate us for no reason! We never did anything illegal to make them A-rabs mad at us! -
Jul 28, 2008 6:27:11 PM CDT
So Morbid, our strategy should be to out-spend the terrorists?
by samsquanch
The Soviet Union fell not because Reagan had super powers, but because they couldn't afford to keep up with the arms race. There are about a thousand other reasons, but that's as close as it gets if you want to give Reagan any credit.
And just for your own edification, everyone thought the Soviet Union was here to stay. The reason we spent so much on armament was because we thought we were locked in a dead-heat competition for our survival. No one saw it coming, or if they did, they knew more than Reagan or his administration did.
Again, fellas, if you're going to compare what's happening now with some example from history, as a desperate ploy to hide the flaws of the present in the blinding sheen of past glory, know a little something about what you're talking about. At least make it not quite so transparently pathetic. -
Sam, I am one of those vets from Desert Storm. Marines - retired. I think you know that already, but cantankerous did not. It disgusts me to no end that people like him can have such a cavalier attitude towards the American servicemen and women who died or suffered life altering wounds by the tens of thousands. It disgusts me that he belives that GWB's 'strategy' which means war, which means lives lost, which means American lives lost, which is just some geopolitical game dreamed up by neocons who never fought a war gerater than spitball in their entire lives, is somehow justified, because of the almost infinitessimal possibility of success. Because it will cretae a legacy for GWB, and oh, if does not work, so what? Just thousands of American dead, tens of thousands of American wounded, a hundred thousand Iraqi dead. I fought and served proudly. And would drag my older ass out there again if needed. But I am older now, and I hope somewhat wiser, and I realize that fighting a pointless war, for a goal that can not be accomplished by force alone - you can't make people choose your way of life under a gun, is a monumental waste of American lives and treasure. And BTW cantankerous, I am not a liberal. I am not even a democrat - I am an independant. And i am full of hope that wiser heads will prevail. Military action must always be an option of polotical strategy, I understabd that. But it must never be entered into on the basis of a geopolitical theory.
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YOu do think there was no case to the effect of 9/11? Are you the LAST PERSON IN AMERICA who still believes that we were attacked because "They hate our freedom"?
Shit, dude, even Rush Limbaugh doesn't use that line any more. -
It seems the kids today are more bloodthirsty than ever.
I just wish there was one thing they could figure out- that war is the FAILURE of government, not the point of it. -
america need not have done the wrong thing in order to have done something to provoke 9/11. US troops died in wwii, but no one would argue that the US did the wrong thing in fighting the germans. there dose however remain a distinct cause and effect between declaring war and losing troops, regardless of motive. It is crazy to thing that the arabs just hated america for no reason, because you are free or whatever. you did plenty to provoke them. that does not necessarily mean the things you did to provoke them were wrong. People who think it was out of the blue were uninformed.
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Hey pal. I was just leaving work before. What's going on, other than a valiant attempt at a sensical exchange with Morbid? Good luck with that ...
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...but when you fuck with people, they _will_ fuck back with you. And when they're a tiny group against a giant military, they will use every dirty trick they can think of to hurt you. And remind you not to fuck with them anymore.
Do you really need me to give you an education on some of the root causes of 9/11? Osama himself said in his first statement after the WTC attacks that his motivation was the humiliation of the Muslim world and the negative effects of US policies in the
Mid East. His personal axe to grind was the thousands of US troops sitting in Saudi Arabia propping up a government that he considered illegitimate. Now, we might justify our interventions in other countries affairs as justified, but in many of their eyes we are committing crimes against them. And they can afford to sit back for years and plot their revenge.
It's not quite as simple as saying, "They hate freedom", but it's much more truthful. -
My pleasure. But it does distress me that some folks never learn from history's mistakes. cantankerous, I want to say, that although I find your words to be disagreeable in the extreme, you have not descended into pointless name calling that goes on around here sometimes, and for that I thank you. Although I must admit, that it does liven up the TB's! LibWar you know I do not mean you, because you are a funny dude when you decide to bring the heat. You crack me the hell up! Keep on, keep strong.
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with his teeth. That's who you're arguing with, FYI ...
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you probably put it better than me. that is what i was getting at. The terrorists, who killed civilians were dead wrong. but it wasn't random. in their eyes there were reasons, however misguided.
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Jul 28, 2008 6:48:21 PM CDT
MORBID ALSO THOUGHT ZOHAN HAS "LOTS OF SEX WITH HOT BABES"
by bringingsexyback
but might have been jarred by the realization that said hot babes were geriatric. Or maybe he got turned on by it. What say you, Morbid?
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and thinks America is just a bunch of whiners. Maybe he's Phil Gramm. Or maybe he's just stupid?
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I have been practicing ever since ace ventura
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As Bill Clay has said, there is no justfying a cowardly attack. I understand why they chose to do so, but I will never grant them a just cause to do it. That being said, the motivations were born out of multiple perceived - real and otherwise, trangressions. Bin laden was trained along with the Mooj - mujahedin, in the soviet era. He was our animal. The remanant of that policy are felt today throughout afghanistan and in terror cells worldwide. We can not act as if our actions around the world do not have consequences. It may take time, but those consequences will be felt - and always it is the innocent who suffer. Bin Laden and his ilk are terrorists, inhumane and cowardly. But they are in part- not entirely, but in part a result of consequences we set in motion.
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please read these guys' posts with an open mind, and not with your right-wing bias. America can't afford to harbor morons like you much longer.
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wtf? honestly, fuck
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I have never called for anyone to be banned. Not even BraneRobot. What you have posted, may be the truth gleaned from a wiki article. But putting a header of 'funny' on it. Is beyond the pale. You are a disgusing individual. And I do not care how young or old you are. You are the type that will always be a true asshole.
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Sam it's hilarious because they do hate us for our freedom. Every day they see the products of our freedom invading their culture and they see it tempting their children. Fuck yea it's hard to keep the kids squatting on mats and wearing tablecloths in the age of Paris Hilton.
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He's either a 12 year old or some hack who worked on a shit Movie that Harry laughed at.
He'll be gone soon enough. -
Watching King Corn doc right now and I am deeply perturbed! Deeply!
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He'll stop once the novelty wears off. Typical newbie.
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Not sure if you all caught this in the Dark Knight. I am not one who goes to see a movie for deep meanings or metaphors. But TDK was dripping with this, the Batman-Bush ending, both hated by most, but also accepting of it for the Good of Gotham-USA. The Patriot ACT-Phoneline Tampering compared to Batman and the Cell phone monitoring to catch the Joker. The whole movie was dripping with this kind of thing.
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Jul 28, 2008 7:42:08 PM CDT
DID YOU GUYS WATCH THE CNN SPECIALS "BLACK IN AMERICA"
by bringingsexyback
Very enlightening. The Black community has some deep-rooted and problematic issues to wrestle with. Many can only be solved by self-realization and determination to improve one's lot despite unfair obstacles and challenges. All the more reason to vote for Obama. Not only has he rose to high ranks because of his shining personality and arresting intelligence, but did so over many obstacles in his life. Unlike Bush who was hand-picked for President and guided to the throne by Karl Rove. Eight years in the Oval Office and the guy remains the dumbest motherfucker this side of MorbidObesity.
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As an ex-marine I suspect you don’t want any coddling or superficial posturing from someone whose views differs from yours. So I’ll offer none. Nor do I suspect that you’re the sort to start hyperventilating like samsquanch because of some perceived slight.
As an ex-marine I also suspect that you’d be the first to acknowledge that military service as a grunt offers little additional insight into the big geopolitical picture, and it does not behoove the Corps to use it fallaciously as an appeal to authority.
The military is a tool and at some level you have to consider its use dispassionately, otherwise it would never be used. Surely you recognize that. Military use is pretty much always a gamble and the invasion of Iraq was no different. You disagree with the civilian authority that sent our forces into harms way. That is your right. I think it was a reasonable gamble and the proper course of action at the time, which is my right.
I could give a rats ass about GWBs legacy except for the fact that it is indelibly linked to Americas success…. Though I do get a kick watching the Liberals squirm at the idea that Georgie-boy may emerge from this situation in a positive light.
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I almost can't watch documentaries anymore. That was the last one I watched and it left a terrible taste in my mouth. I don't want the American farmer to go under but this subsidies thing has got to change.Eggsalad, you're a piece of shit. Why don't you go and toss your cellmate's salad and then hang yourself with a bed sheet.
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Because it's not his life on the line. I'd like to "dispassionately" use his life as a "tool" - to lubricate a wood chipper.
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I like you. Platonically. We seem to be on the same page on a lot of stuff and some of the attempts to come back at your arguments are frankly embarrassing.
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you can't enter a war without objective, pregnant thought. The leader must on the one hand be aware of the toll it will take on families and yet still be strong enough to bear that burden. that is leadership. Democracies require soldiers who fight for their country rather than one or another political party. at the end of the day soldiers expect their leaders to fuck them, but are proud to do a job that society values and requires. The individual solider is better than the leader who uses him as 'a weapons platform'.
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"resigned from office in utter disgrace and is generally regarded as a bad president, or at least someone most Americans wouldn't vote for again." If FDR had been caught stealing millions in federal funds in 1944, he would presumably have resigned in disgrace, but would that have made him a bad president, whether or not he was remembered as one?
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How did the USA elect the mental equivalent of a 14-year-old boy into office twice, once against a man who would go on to win a Nobel Prize, and once against a thoughtful war hero? I mean, the first time could be forgiven as Gore won the popular vote and should have won Florida, but how do you explain 2004? Democracy sure sucks when more than half the electorate are apparently brainless fuckwits.
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Yes, there are terrorists who desipse our freedoms. No doubt about that. Just as there were communists who despised the American way of life, there are terrorists who despise us and western culture and freedoms. But it aint all of them and probably not even most. You see, that is the danger on both sides, that we see them as American/western freedom hating religious zealots. And they see us as warmongering, empire building, destroyers of their culture. Neither is correct and both are. The answer, as with most things is complex and lies in the middle. We by our policies, created the environments in which extremist points of view could be turned against us. Note: Those extremists would have existed whether or not the U.S. existed or not. But because of some of our policies, we helped point them in our direction. Ignoring that any people who feel oppressed, who feel that their culture and way of life are threatened, will take action, and blaming that solely on their 'hating our freedosm' is short sighted, dangerous, and just plain stupid. Facing what the reality is: That some will hate us no matter what, but that others may be changed in time, is the only way to stem the tide of rising terror. It is good to know that we are united in our dislike of eggsalad. That is a disgusting individual.
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Nice "try to cover a few things" but the only point you've managed to drive home is your propensity to ask baseless rhetorical questions and demonstrate your perpetual, well, pointlessness.
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Maybe you can point Cantankerous in the direction of a military recruiter? I'm sure his brave, emotionally detached political stances will translate well on the real battlefield. Or not, but there's only one way to find out.
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That's like saying the success of cleaning the shit off my shoe. You still wish to hell you'd never stepped in it, it's unpleasant trying to clean it, and the fact is, there's still shit there.
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on two occasions he got drunk and ordered a nuclear strike on the ussr, just out of hatred. kissenger had the order ignored (even thought this was illegal) and both times when nixon woke up no more was said about it. either he was too drunk to remember or too embarrassed to bring it up
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The only faggot around here is you. Because your opinion is straight up gay.
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That JazzTerminator must be kidding
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Rush says "elitist", and they all say "elitist". I don't find Obama elitist at all. Then again, I don't have an inferiority complex either. Maybe that explains it.
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that Jazzterminator would be delighted to fellate the current President.
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I agree - this subsidies program has farmers planting the wrong crops. I think poor nutrition has created a dumb society, as evidenced by the likes of Morbid here. Have you checked your DNA recently for traces of corn?
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My standards are extremely low. The fact you think they're high, well, see above post re: inferiority complex.
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Don't take it as criticism. Maybe a fewer Super Big Gulps and a little more juice would go a long way to curing your malady.
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You are right, I do prefer a straight answer. No coddling or fancy language. But that does not mean I am uneducated. I took full advantage of the G.I. bill. Marines and soldiers may not have any special insight into geopolitcal posturing, but we do know when we are wasted. I have been out of the military for close to fifteen years now. Time has passed, but some things never change. I think I have a very good grasp on why we went to war. And if I can see that it was a flawed strategy - a gamble as you say (and that term really disgusts me when you are dealing with lives), when I can see it is wrong, I wonder just how can people with supposedly more knowledge not see the same thing? The answer is: Some do. But they were not in power. Chipps, you present a slightly romanticized view of the serviceman. Let me be blunt. Most people who join, do not expect to go to war, nor even want to. We are just people, just like you. Our jobs descriptions are just a little different. Yes, there are folks who join to fight. Some join because of patriotism, some join because it is a job. Some join because it is a way to get money for college. I joined for all of the above and because my whole family had always been military. No one wants to be used. No one wants to think what they are doing is just because some jackass politician has a pet theory to advance, or a dumbass politically motivated flag officer sees a career advancement in bending over. We fight, yes. We have discipline, yes. We take orders even when it leads to our deaths, yes. But believe this if you never believe another thing: When the live rounds are flying past yor face, when you see dead and wounded friends on the ground. You are not fighting for your country. You are fighting for the man standing beside, just as he is fighting for you. because at the end of the day, the people around you, not some nebulous idea, is what is going to get you home safely.
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You don't have to explain shit to Cantankerous. On the other hand, he has a whole lot of explaining to do, to assert that the troops have no right to speak their minds when it's their lives on the line. Fuck that bitch.
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I'm in my own country's military and that is my attitude. I haven't deployed though. plus i agree with much of what you said above, except here we can get higher education without joining the army.
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You're mistaking yourself as my target audience. Not to mention my posts are not meant to appeal to anyone who finds You Don't Mess With The Zohan a hilarious funfest.
But at least that last post didn't contain any pointless rhetorical questions. Are you trying to impress me now? -
People like Cant, will always exist. Armchair warriors and faux leaders who think it is tough to send men into battle, and who 'accept' the conseqeunces - without ever leaving their comfy chairs. True military leaders, never want to fight, but are always prepared to do so, and prepared to win.
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20% grease
20% corn syrup
20% MSG
20% McNuggets
20% artificial butter flavoring -
And that's why, above all, the comparison of Bush to Batman is the most inane thing. Bush is devoid of an ounce of heroism, and whereas Batman would risk life and limb for a random stranger, Bush could not conceive of a charitable thought in that faulty brain of his. Batman? What depths of desperation will the right-wing sink to? We shall see in the next 8 years of the Obama Administration.
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I'm no fan of John Kerry's but that turned out to be a bunch of nonsense. There's reason why "swiftboating" has entered the lexicon as a pejorative.
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From my previous post: "You disagree with the civilian authority that sent our forces into harms way. That is your right." ......If you're going to attack something I said, make sure I said it.
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Do you ever, really share any insight? Post any views that are not just negative rehash of ultra conservative viewpoints? Provide any real evidence backed arguments to bolster your positions? Do anything but just act as a naysayer? I am serious. i would like to know.
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McCain : I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crewmates have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam.
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Not a woman's right to choose. Just abortions. Let me guess, FATFUCK. You subscrine to the ShitforBranes theory that more abortions means less liberals.
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Come on, we have gone toe-to-toe on several occasions, and although I recognize and appreciate that you are being very civil now, there have been occasions when you 'teamed up 'with BraneRobot for some truly obnoxious observations and views that where clearly ultra conservative.
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Was Dwight D. Eisenhower an armchair warrior and faux leader? He never saw combat and he "gambled" with the lives of thousands of soldiers during the invasion of Normandy. In many respects, it was actually kinda a cluster-f*ck. Just the sort of thing that many Liberals would use to call for the head of their political opponent if it happened today. Did Eisenhower never want to fight? Your characterization of a "true" military leader is flawed.
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Jul 28, 2008 9:55:53 PM CDT
IS CANTANKEROUS COMPARING HIMSELF TO GENERAL EISENHOWER?
by bringingsexyback
He fancies himself in the same category, does he? Color me ... bewildered.
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No. I have more hair.
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Cute. Trying to come out of your shell?
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When you start applying inappropriate analogies such as a militarily sound invasion, that launched the allies counter-attack, and signaled the beginning of the end of WWII. Which if I might digress for one moment, would not have been possible without the supreme sacrifice of the Russians on the Eastern front where more people fought and died than in ALL theatres of combat in WWII combined - oh yeah, I'm a military buff too. When you try and draw that analogy to the invasion of a country for a nebulous geopolitical theory, then i know you have reached the end of any meaningful dialogue and are just grasping at straws. But, just to satisfy your curiousity, no there is no comparison. And i stand by 100% what I said about true military leaders. Good leaders of men who inspire, never want to fight. Only fools or psychopaths want to fight and possibly be killed. But always be prepared to fight, and when you do, fight to win.
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Yes, you and Brane did the one-two buckle my show dance a few times. You reinforced his views and vice versa. I suggest you go back and re-read some of those old political TB's. Perhaps you have forgotten.
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Can't say I blame you. I wouldn't own up to that either.
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Jul 28, 2008 10:07:05 PM CDT
FOR A WHILE THERE I THOUGHT MORBID WAS BRANE'S GIMP
by bringingsexyback
That's how close they were.
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i went to the bea thinking i was going to see figures showing the us is in recession but it is currently ticking away at about 1% grow for the first quarter of 08 and as such does not qualify. keep in mind these figures often have a six month lag. remember the clinton election? the economy was not declared to be in recession until after it no longer was. as for the swift boat thing, it is pretty well established that a lot of it was bullshit. which exact facts do you support. for example when Hibbard (one of the main swift boaters) tried explain why kerry did not qualify he described kerry in an action that would qualify. even if he wasn't hit badly and if it was friendly fire (which is disputed by other two guys in the boat) he would still qualify (though i agree that would cheapen the award). still, under that scenario he would still qualify.
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You're right about the lag. But that just adds a level of complexity in economic analysis that Morbid's ill-equipped to consider. Just a few days ago, foreclosure rates were found to have risen 120% (more than doubled) and that will have an impact on bank earnings in coming quarters. Not to mention that 2 more banks were closed over the weekend, 2 banks on a list of over 130 "troubled banks" on the Fed's list. Everyone but Morbid and Bush can see the writing on the wall, and the smart thing to do is admit the problem in order to fix it. It's a good thing Morbid's not President, but that still leaves Bush ...
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My post was about Eisenhower satisfying your definition of an "armchair" warrior and therefore not being a “true” military leader, by your own account. Clearly you were wrong. The invasion of Normandy was as “sound” a military plan as any plan is before first contact with the enemy. In Eisenhower’s own words, he was prepared to “accept the consequences”.
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it was a picture of a stick figure sitting at a computer desk, furiously typing. in the background it said wife: come to bed honey figure: i can't wife: why not?figure: because someone on the internet is WRONG!!!!
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Ah, there is the old morbid. Accusing me of being a leftist, even after i have said time and again, I am a moderate. Funny, but that is the exact same thing - accusing me of being a leftist- that Brane said. I am sure it is just a coincidence. And if you think I have nothing better to do than dive through your old TB's looking for proof of you cozying up with Brane from time to time, and please skip the phony 'if I'm thinking of the right talkbacker' you know damn well who he is/was. If you think I am going back through that stuff to find 'proof' - when I and everyone else who has debated you on those old TB's are well aware of your views, then you are quite loopy!
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Well, Brane did profess to deliberate man-sniffing. At least Morbid was smart enough to disavow that association. Just barely smart enough ...
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You are not really that dense are you? My exact quote was, "People like Cant, will always exist. Armchair warriors and faux leaders" That was directed at you. Non military. neocons lanning around a table with no military background. Eisenhower was military through and through. Under no circumstances did I ever infer, that he was not. Only you did. He waa a true general who inspired because he did not recklessly waste mens lives or try and enhance his own reputation on the backs of his men. Really, learn to read dude.
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I remember Morbid and Brane's team-up. Pretty embarassing period in the annals of political talkbackdom ...
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How old are you? Really, that type of 'dare' went out in grade school dude! I am quite confident that I remember you and Brane being buddy buddy one more than one occassion.
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I don't regard sniffing Mori in a sexual context. You are sole owner of that opinion, sorry to say.
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Jul 28, 2008 10:37:07 PM CDT
I REMEMBER THAT TIME BRANE WAS ON THE VERGE OF ANOTHER DAILY MEL
by bringingsexyback
and Morbid jumped in to his defense quite valiantly. Now that's what I call a real team-up. Do you miss that, Morbid?
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Unmarried, of course.
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I just remembered something. Branes posts were deleted when he was banned.
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Jul 28, 2008 10:42:53 PM CDT
TOADKILLER: OF COURSE MORBID CONSIDERS YOU A LEFTIST
by bringingsexyback
Like his teammate Branerobot, anyone who's not a genocidal war-monger is automatically a Leftist. But does Morbid also believe that the right to vote should be reserved for those who own property? I wonder: how deep were their ties?
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It matters not though, you me, Docp, MNG,LibWar, samsquanch, node, and I am sure others remember those wars and who was on which side
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It wouldn't surprise me if Brane deliberately antagonized Mori in order to get banned and have his talkback history wiped. Because at one point he was getting pretty damned flustered about his pro-genocide stance being challenged and even Morbid was unable to help his friend at that moment. It was then that Brane jumped into one of Mori's talkbacks and started wailing on him. I'm convinced his was a suicide by moderator.
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I underestimated you. You knew damn well who Brane was, and that his posts were deleted - so no smoking gun even if I had decided to take up your dare. Well played. But your true side is already re-emerging. The leftists taunts will soon give way to more supposed insults. The civility will fade away.
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I apologize then. Didn't know you were kidding.
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i'm just asking which claims of the swift boaters you support. The easiest to support claim is that he didn't deserve the first purple heart . The main supporters of this theory say that: he and the two other people in his boat came under fire from the shore. In the course of this he sustained an extremely minor shrapnel wound from his own grenade launcher. This description, given by those who say he dosn't deserve it, fits the requirement for a purple heart. further, while there is basically no dispute that the wound was minor (but did require medical attention) the other two people in the boat with him say it was not friendly fire and that the grenade launcher wasn't even used.
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but that happens quite frequently. With Morbid, expect nothing, and you won't be disappointed.
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Let's team up again soon!
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Well, regardless, Morbid must be who he is. He has not changed. The same issues that brought him into alignment with Brane, will re-emerge
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Don't dream of Morbid!
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it is pretty well established that **some** soldiers committed atrocities in vietnam, eg my lai.
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This is what I love about this site. There is nothing funnier than the hypocritical left-wing nut calling a right-wing nut a nut. I love how the ultra liberal majority here accuse the conservative minority of being racist while being racist themselves. Samsquanch, you are my favorite so far. The stuff you spouted about how the rules have changed since WWII is some truly illuminating stuff. Let me clue you in a bit. They only thing that has changed since WWII is people’s attitudes – and I do not say that as a good thing. WWII would never happen today because people like you would rather sit back with “peace at all costs” attitudes and let Hitler do and kill whatever and whoever he wanted. Let me also give you another history lesson. We tried to stay out of WWII too because it didn’t involve us. We needed to get bombed to hell at Pearl Harbor before we would get involved. If Pearl Harbor had happened with the country thinking like you ultra liberals we’d have done one of two things: went to war with Japan and left Hitler alone. Or we would have figured Pearl Harbor was our fault for subverting Japan and forcing them to attack us. Either attitude is B.S. Another thing that offended me was your arrogant attitude about people who actually believe in their country (America in this case). You may hate America with all of your left-wing nut friends, but there are some of us who are proud of our country despite its mistakes. That doesn’t make us people who feel entitled. That makes us normal. I would say to any citizen of any country that honestly doesn’t believe that their country is “#1”, as you put it, doesn’t belong there. You can disagree with American policy, but to actively suggest that people who are still proud of it are suffering from a “fanciful sense of entitlement” is liberal arrogance to the nth degree. Also, don’t you think it is slightly hypocritical to insult Fox news when MSNBC does the exact same thing? Both have biases, but I guess MSNBC is okay because their particular bias agrees with your views. That’s hypocritical and there is no way to argue that it is not. In your admirable haste to let us all know how enlightened you are because you are anti white American (or is it just anti-American?) that you let us all see your own biases and prejudices.
Bill Clay, you are another one whose posts I despised. To suggest that the citizens who died in 9/11 deserved to die because we messed with other country’s sovereignty is a traitorous insult. You and Samsquanch disturb me and I usually can take a lot before I get truly offended. Who gives a shit about why Bin Laden attacked us? He attacked and killed people who had nothing to do with American policy. No matter what line he feeds you about political motives, in the end he killed a lot of people who probably did not even know who he was let alone have anything to do with policy-making. He killed them because they were American and he made no distinctions between policy-makers and innocent citizens. There is no justification for that. No matter what you two think, this government is allowed to have Middle East policies. In case you hadn’t noticed, the countries of the Middle East have been warring for hundreds of years…before there was an America. Our policies were put in place to try and stop that. You want to call that interfering? Fine, but you are the ones who over simplify matters. We intervened to try and make peace, for whatever reasons, and Bin Laden and others over there do not want it. They’ll be happy to go back to just killing each other after we are gone. In the mean time they’ll try and kill us instead because that is what they do. You two can’t have it both ways. Either they are right or we are. Keep in mind you can’t make the world a better place when there are people who cannot be reasoned with who don’t want it better. What are you prepared to do to make the world better? My guess is sit back and bitch anonymously on a movie website and take no action.
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Toadkiller, I wanted to point out that I disagree with what you said but I respect it. As a Marine you probably have more reason than most to post about the successes and failures of the Iraq war. Like I said, though, I disagree. You align yourself with that attitude that we deserved to be attacked on 9/11 because of thing we had done in the past. I don’t see that as valid justification for not bringing force to bear not only on Bin Laden, but those who align themselves with him. We know that Saddam at least sympathized with Bin Laden even if he didn’t outwardly help him. The question is, what would Saddam have done if given free reign? I know that our reasons for going into Iraq were murky. I am not one who is jumping on the Scott McClelland bandwagon and assuming that the WMD reason was a lie. I know a lot of people here believe that because of who they are, but I don’t. I am not saying it is impossible, but right now I do not believe it. I have always said that if Saddam didn’t have the WMDs then why did he jerk around the weapons inspectors? By the terms of the first Gulf War treaty he was obligated to let in weapons inspectors and failure to do so would have been justification enough for going in there. Let’s put aside all of the conspiracy-theories for a moment and ask yourself if how you would have interpreted Saddam’s decision to jerk around the weapons inspectors. Do not look back on it after all these years, look on it as if you were there at the time.
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Good point. I think it is important to note that Bin Laden makes no distinctions between liberals and conservatives. He'll be just as happy to kill one as the other.
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Rand92, if that was the conclusion you reached...well, your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. Understanding the reasons why 9/11 happened doesn't mean that the act is being justified. If you don't understand why something has happened then you'll never be able to prevent it from happening again.
Plain and simple, the WTC attacks were orchestrated by Saudi Arabians involved in the power struggle to control SA. Al-Qaeda considers the current rulers of Saudi Arabia to be illegitimate, and sees American military bases on their soil as collaborators with the current regime in oppressing the Saudi civilian population. Now read the following carefully... that doesn't mean I agree with their response to our perceived trespass. It only means that I understand their motivation. Eating up Bush's propaganda that we were attacked by "freedom haters" ignores the root cause of the tragedy. -
I love posting crap on these boards.
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"Who gives a shit about why Bin Laden attacked us?"
That would be all of the above and any agency who wanted & still wants to find, capture and punish Bin-Laden.
If you're somehow having trouble understanding this then let me make it even simpler for you.
When the Police investigate a Murder the victims families and the Media don't start screaming hysterically about the Police and Detectives sympathising with the killer or accuse the Police of thinking the Killer was justified. They know the Police immediately investigate any motive past or present that will help catch the killer and prevent him from killing again.
There has been constant (if not entirely succesful) liason between Saudi Arabia and the investigating agencies since 9/11. And it's not because the agencies sympathise with Bin-Laden or think he was justified. It's because they know all about Bin-Ladens politics & reasoning, that have been touched on here involving Saudi Arabia, and know that his own twisted manifesto and the connections that spring from that are the best way of tracking him down along with those in Al-Qaeda most closely associated with him.
Lets also be in no doubt that anyone simple minded enough to think Saddam was Hitler hasn't a clue about either.
Being an asshole brutal murdering Dictator in the middle east doesn't make you Hitler. In fact it doesn't even make you the exception. Being a human rights abusing thug in that part of the world, as well as sadly far too many other parts, makes you yet another in a long, LONG list of scumbag Dictator assholes. Point me to where Saddam was planning to invade Poland and plunge Europe into a catastrophic World War involving tens of Millions or get a grip of yourself.
We know that Saddam at least sympathized with Bin Laden even if he didn’t outwardly help him."
Here we go again. NO he DIDN'T. Sadam was a secular Dictator who ruled through his secret Police not the edict of the Mullahs and religious authorities. Bin-Laden is a religious Zealot who uses religion to fan the flames of his every warped edict and action. They both despised each other as they both were under the delusion that only they were the the the true voice of the Arab street. This stuff isn't secret. It's been widely known for years.
"assuming that the WMD reason was a lie. I know a lot of people here believe that because of who they are, but I don’t."
The vast amount of people think WMD was a Lie because there aren't any WMD. Simple. Got it ?"Saddam didn’t have the WMDs then why did he jerk around the weapons inspectors?"
Because he was a LIAR. BEcause he wanted to appear Strong when he was Weak. It's called Propaganda.
Remember the recent pictures appeared of the "extra" missiles Iran photshopped into a propaganda picture ? It's the same reason. Remember when the Soviets inflated the number of their ICBMS and other weaponry ? Same reason. -
Unfortunately for you I have absolutely no interest in your "views".
Not simply because you don't actually have any. (Piss poor ad-hominem attacks don't count I'm afraid) But because you seem utterly incapable of separating fact from "complaints".
And I certainly don't care if you like my posts or not as I'm not posting for the benefit of childish namecallers.
I have no idea what your own strange politics could possibly be since all you have done is attempted (and failed) to label posters without any meaningfull reasoning to back up your "judgments of Solomon."
But anyone who whines and cries about the Loyal Bushies terminology they themselves used and coined (it's a fact, try again) doesn't sound like a Liberal to me.
And Please dont worry about education. As any Loyal Bushie would tell you, "Rarely is the question asked, is our childen learning ?" That's the important thing, not any typos. -
"We fight, yes. We have discipline, yes. We take orders even when it leads to our deaths, yes. But believe this if you never believe another thing: When the live rounds are flying past your face, when you see dead and wounded friends on the ground. You are not fighting for your country. You are fighting for the man standing beside, just as he is fighting for you. because at the end of the day, the people around you, not some nebulous idea, are what are going to get you home safely."
This is exactly what a lot of these discussions never seem to distinguish between: the whole morass of bullshit going on at the higher levels of government, eg sending people to war under the pretence that it is about eliminating a threat to your way of life, when in reality it's about fighting for oil and to keep control of the land the oil is on; and the soldier's eye view, which is just to get in and out with your ass in one piece and relying on yourself and your fellow soldiers to help you achieve that goal.
We can debate all day what happened at 9/11 and why, and why we're at war in Iraq, but it's important to clarify that what most of us (I think) are arguing about are the motives of the politicians who start and propagate these wars, NOT the soldiers. No-one would argue that troops should just be used as pawns and are expendable - apart from the most douchebag of douchebags on here (and there are a few). But all you armchair strategists out there (and I include myself in there): read toadkiller's post again at the top of mine. No matter why he and the other soldiers went out there, once there, they are doing what they do to get out of there alive. I'm amazed at the amount of people who think we ARE justified at being out there - it seems blindingly obvious to me that the American government knew all about what was going on just before 9/11, and had ample opportunity to do A LOT more investigating but didn't. No-one thought that terrorists flying planes into a building could happen? The writer of the pilot episode of THE LONE GUNMEN sure did, as did several novelists before 2001. NORAD facing the wrong way? Fighters not scrambled, even though the jets were deviated for 45 minutes from their course? Come ON! To those of you who don't think a government would sell out its innocent civilians for war racketeering profits - man, are YOU guys dumb. Google OPERATION NORTHWOODS and school yourselves. Look into whether we REALLY knew that Pearl Harbour was going to happen before it did. And for those offended by the accusation that the Government let 9/11 happen to justify a war they planned for years before, allowing 3000+ innocents to die for their twisted agenda - I'm as fucking offended as you are that a Government could do that. But believing that they would never do that - we should all be a lot smarter than that.
These terrorists are doing what they do because the West HAS oppressed them, it HAS kept them living in a semi-primitive state (probably because if they ever got technologically organised, the first place they'd go after militarily is the West) and it HAS ruthlessly stripmined their land for everything we need to maintain the way we live. The problem is not only the fact that they are now starting to fight back - something we were able to keep a lid on until the last ten years or so - but also that we are on the edge of a financial catastrophe which could well bring all this Western aggression in the Middle East to a sudden halt, just as the terrorists are gaining ground.
I'm not suggesting we apologise, grovel and hope they forgive us. I'm not even suggesting we get the hell out and leave the Middle East to its own devices - far from it. But we need to change the way we do business out there in the future, and we HAVE to stop believing the bullshit the Government is shovelling down our throats. The 9/11 hijackers were mostly Saudis. WHY isn't the US going after SA? I think we all know the answer to that one, and it's undoubtedly fiscal in origin.
And if these terrorists are so great at what they do - if 9/11 was pulled off by a bunch of poorly organised lunatic with box-cutters and indestructible passports found amid the utter chaos of 9/11, then how come they haven't managed to pull it off again? In the UK, where I live, the IRA didn't just pull off one huge bombing and leave it at that - they went on and on. The entire conflict was ended with TALKS. Sometimes that works - other times it doesn't. But I don't buy that the US suddenly got so secure that no-one could ever pull off a huge attack ever again - not with that open border policy there seems to be near Mexico. 9/11 could have been stopped, and wasn't. THAT'S what we should be getting pissed about - so why aren't we?
toadkiller - Well put earlier. -
Have you watched Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement? Check it out. A vote for McCain and the Republican Party will bring the North American Union ever closer to reality.
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And how ironic was that misspelling of "education"?
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That's good for him. Obviously he's never suffered through watching a Bush press conference.
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You're saying the American people rate Congress lower because they are ineffectual in dealing with someone they rate higher?What kind of backwards logic is that?Since I'm talking, I'll blather on... I am amazed that so many aspects of American policy get attributed to any President. As if he could snap his fingers and lower oil prices or reduce the deficit. If anything, the President represents the least powerful branch of the government. But since the Executive branch is consolidated into one person, he (or she) gets the credit/blame for everything that happens in this country.Congress passes law. The President has veto power, nothing more. Yet anything right or wrong with the US gets attributed to the President because he is one person.
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That's right I've seen them and analyzed them myself. Because I have both the time and inclination for such things. The Swiftboaters hadn't seen them either, so how were there discrepancies? Oh that's right, there weren't - it was just one group's word against another. Course it's just hearsay, but it's easy to be disruptive when money is being floated by rich, conservative oilmen to denegrate the record of someone you served in combat with. None of the "allegations" were proven, they were specious and unprovable by design, and they were vociferously denied by others. It was a political smear and (almost, apparently) everyone knows it now.
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Toadkillerdog never said he was aligned with anyone who 'justifies' the attack on us. As a matter of fact, no one one did. People explained motivations for why the atatck occurred, but no one said it was justified, least of all Toadkillerdog. This is what he said" ...there is no justfying a cowardly attack. I understand why they chose to do so, but I will never grant them a just cause to do it. That being said, the motivations were born out of multiple perceived - real and otherwise, trangressions. Bin laden was trained along with the Mooj - mujahedin, in the soviet era. He was our animal". Fred think you need to sharpen your reading comprehension skills.
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Of those who served in Kerry's boat crew, only Stephen Gardner joined SBVT.He was not present on any of the occasions when Kerry won his medals, including his Purple Hearts. Gardner appeared in two of the group's television advertisements.
All other living members of Kerry's crew supported his presidential bid, and some frequently campaigned with him as his self-described 'band of brothers'. Kerry crewmembers have disputed some of SBVT's various allegations: "totally false" (Drew Whitlow), "garbage" (Gene Thorson), and "a pack of lies" (Del Sandusky).
No members of SBVT were aboard Kerry's boat during any of the incidents for which he was decorated. The only member of SBVT who was present at the Silver Star incident, Rood's crewmember Larry Clayton Lee, praised Kerry's tactics and stated that he earned his Silver Star; he stated that based on discussions with other SBVT members, he came to question whether Kerry deserved other medals for incidents at which he was not present. -
I will repeat to you what I said to cantankerous - 'you are not really that dense are you?' I never, ever, ever aligned myself with anyone who 'justified' the attack on us. And to the best of my knowledge, no one on this board did. I have not read all the posts, so I can not say for a 100% certainty, but neither Bill Clay nor samsquanch ever said it was justified. Understanding motives and motivation, and not burying your head up the ass of the nearest xenophobe, is the only way to defeat the enemy. Talk to me again after you have grown up.
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You're a fool. And a dangerous fool at that. Let's break down all your nonsense.Why did Saddam jerk the weapons inspectors around? Could it be that he was trying to have it both ways? Appear to have weapons without actually having weapons? The same way you and Jazz claim to have a brain and penis when both are doubtful.And let's apply that logic to the same administration that invaded his country. If Bush and Rove and the administration have nothing to hide, why is the White House issuing executive orders excluding Rove and Myers from having to testify after being subpeonaed? Why were thousands of e-mails deleted from the planning period? Why was Libby pardoned so quickly? This is an administration that knows only lies, lies and more lies and they have the balls to point the finger at others they deem dishonest. And yet you and 27% of the country still cut Bush and Company plenty of slack.And whoever said that MSNBC is no different than Fox News is an idiot. Fox News routinely has it's hosts "misspeak" by referring to Obama as Osama, or using his full name or wishing him to be assassinated. And there's only one host on cable news who yells at his guests to shut up and threatens them with physical violence. No, Fox News is alone in the way they mishandle and spin the news.Any citizens who don't think their country is #1 should leave? Wow, talk about lunkheaded jingoistic nonsense. You should leave with that kind of empty headed thinking. People who feel passionately enough about their country even if they think it's lost it's way and want to stay to fight the good fight and wrestle control of it away from the corrupt and insane are the real patriots.And with regards to bring democracy to the Middle East, is anyone really stupid enough to think that by liberating Iraq we're going start a trend? As long as we keep our mouths shut about Saudi Arabia and ignore the fact that they're the ones who really hate us, democracy will be unattainable. The guys who flew the planes in our buildings were Saudis and King Abdul is more than happy to take our money and laugh at Bush crawling to him on all fours while his people flock to the tutelage of guys like Bin Laden. Saudi Arabia will produce terrorists indefinately, as will Africa and Asia who will not be swayed by what happens in Iraq so long as the Western world continues to treat third world nations as their personal toilet.I remember reading a story back in 2004 about a wedding in Iraq that we bombed accidentally. Killed everyone. Bride, groom, both families, guests. A few lucky folks survived. So tell me, you think we made a friend or enemy there? Imagine how angry we were over 9/11. We created a private 9/11 for those survivors. And we've done that countless times for decades. Would you have forgiven Bin Laden if in 1992 he provided aid to victims of Hurricane Andrew but still carried out the attacks on 9/11? Does his good deed give him a free pass from his evil one?And let's get to the attacks themselves. Brainless fools who say the attacks were nothing more than a way of killing Americans are dolts. If all Bin Laden and al Qaeda wanted to do was kill Americans, don't you think that some of their cell members who are surely in the U.S. would have driven a truck full of fertilizer (a la McVeigh) up to a building and detonated it? Killing Americans was a bonus to Bin Laden. His goal was to disrupt our lives and bring our economy crashing down. And guess what? Mission Accomplished. We're inconvenienced when we travel now, we have the government shoving bogus colored alerts down our throats, we're paranoid, we're mired in two wars that will drain our resources for years to come and low income and middle class Americans are struggling to make ends meet. And Bin Laden accomplished all of that with four box cutters and a group of brainwashed Saudis.As to why Bin Laden doesn't send suicide bombers into Starbucks in Times Square? I think it's safe to say that al Qaeda is able to kill Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan without having to go to the effort of planning and carrying out an attack on our soil.Some idiot way up above mentioned that he and his friends are making more money now than they were 8 years ago. Good for you, you're NOT the norm. Another idiot said all the numbers show we're not in a recession. If it acts like a recession, if it feels like a recession, then to the American who's giving their kids soda instead of milk because it costs half as much, to them, it's a recession. I work in human resources and the majority of our employees aren't earning enough to make ends meet. They are taking out hardship loans on their 401Ks in order to pay next month's rent. These workers represent the majority of Americans. They are hurting, they are desperate and their situation deteriorates every day. And they are the backbone of America. These are the people whose backs us white collar workers make our inflated paychecks off of and yet when they complain neocons label them as whiners.And I don't blame Bush for 9/11. A memo that warns of an attack using our own aircraft is cryptic at best. There would have had to have been a buttload of "connecting the dots" to prevent those 19 men from boarding those four planes that fateful morning.And I'm not a fan of Clinton as I think he's a scumbag, but those jackals that blame him from dropping the ball need to look at the big picture. Bush had Bin Laden cornered as well and let him go. We've heard stories that under Clinton a sniper had Bin Laden's melon in his crosshairs. He was allowed to escape both times. So maybe larger forces are at work. Bin Laden might be the red headed stepchild of the Saudi royal family but he's still family. And if we're seeking their permission before we can put a slug in his bread basket and they aren't giving it........well, you figure it out. And anyone who says Bush doesn't need anyone's permission and he stands his ground no matter what is a dolt. Bush won't answer to his own people but he sure answers to the almighty dollar. To refer to Iran and North Korea as part of the Axis of Evil but leave Saudi Arabi out of the mix goes to show that Bush is a disingenuous scumbag. The House of Saud does human rights abuses and suppressing democracy better than anyone yet Bush does his little sword dance, hand holding, crawling like a dog to the King. Even good old Stands With a Fist has a moral pricetag and he dares not bite the hand that feeds him.Lastly, neocon jerkwads who go on about "liberals would have stayed out of WW2" need to shut up. Conservatives have a really good track record of stopping human rights abuses? Ummmm, no. Neither side does. Both the left and right have done a bang up job of ignoring genocides, and worse, installing their fair share of puppet dictators who engaged in genocides.Opening your eyes doesn't require putting on a tinfoil hat, but only getting your information from Fox and Friends keeps you fat and ignorant.
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You could not even see and accept a compliment when given. Pathetic.
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He attacked the World Trade Center. you know the center of the U.S.'s gloabal financial and corporate might? Jizzsperminator would liek us to think Bin Lade nwa attacking upper eastsiders and greenich village gays but nothing could be further from the truth. Rest assured that the majority of the peopel i nthat buildign were probably conservative ultra-capitalists, with the possible exception of any innocent police or firefighters that happened to be left-leaning (50% maybe). They blew up a bank.
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Let me add a thing or two. 1)about WWII - since Rand92 is a dolt, America was an isolationist country then. We did not want to be involved with any wars, on any sides. And that was a bipartisan feeling. It took a great President, and an awful act (Pearl harbor) to bring us into the conflict. And no, I do not think it was orchestrated, or ignored. Neither was 9/11. Both were the fault of bad communication and ignored intelligence reports. 2) As for addam being sympathetic to Bin Laden, so what? Hussein was a control freak. he never, ver allowed terrorists to have a signifiant presence on Iraqi soil. He was paranoid on any attempt to overthrow him, and ruthlessly crushed all dissent. Do you really think he would allow a religious terrorist or his organization to prosper? Hell no. Would he root for the terrorist to attack mutaul enemy? Hell yes. Like I said before Rand92, talk to me when you grow up.
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You make me laugh! You really do!
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The suspected politics of the people in those buildings means nothing. They were innocent civillians. They were mothers and fathers, sons and daughters. Not every liberal is a saint, and not every conservative is the devil. Please remember that.
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By the way, I'm sending out stuff to CoC members. Contact me in the zone and I'll enlighten you about it.
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What I quoted was about who served when and with whom. Those are apolital, referenced facts. Are you disputing those facts? If not then the wiki was more than adequate.I'm not going to spend my day doing research and cutting and pasting shit from here there and everywhere, and even going to the one-stop shopping of Wikipedia again and again is tiresome. Suffice to say, Kerry did release his records and the bottom line about the Swiftboaters has already been said a million times: It was a smear. What they "got" Kerry to do isn't the point anyway, you initially brought them up as just a bunch of guys who raised some legitimate questions which is far from the truth, which is they were organized by conservative string-pullers, and what they claimed re: Kerry's war record was spurious and without merit. Unless you mean their assertion that his anti-war stance was a betrayal of the military and made him unfit to be commander-in-chief, which s another matter altogether.I'l reiterate that I'm not lover of John Kerry, but to give credence to one of the more yellow-bellied political maneuvers in recent years is ridiculous.
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The centers of the U.S.'s financial and military power. Yes, these are very much reasonable targets, not shopping malls or public transport. Justified? I'll let you guys think that one over yourselves.
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Simply read the posts from last night.
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Point taken TKD, but that doesn't necessarily make them innocent. By that rationale any genocidal maniac is innocent. The police and firefighters? They were innocent. Support staff? Innocent. Like we do with the countries we bomb when innocent civilians are killed, Bin Laden would call this collateral damage.
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The majority were "conservative ultra-capitalists"? Uhhhh, no.
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He's mullato.
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was because of the strategically placed demolition charges put in place by Marvin Bush's security company.
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The surrounding buildings were long evacuated by the time they fell, fuckface. And yes, the plane occupants were most definitely innocent and there deaths were not justified. Just saying the WTC and Pentagon are reasonable targets for an enemy of the U.S. an no I'm not trying to make the terrorists out to be noble asshole.
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He's too insecure and uptight to know what to do with one. Chalk it up to his affectionless upbringing.
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But that sure wasn't the case when he was quoting it for his own purposes.
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You still haven't told us why you are such a "big fan" of abortion?
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not their actions.
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I'll go with WIkipedia on this one. Because there are references there. And I looked at them. And there wYou can look too. ere the military records. Anyway again - the point about his military records is beside the point except to show that the fashionable wikipedia-bashing has its limits. The reason I even responded has already been repeated multiple times: MorbidObesity giving credence to a group that is severely lacking in that department with pretty much everyone else.
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nor did he deny having parents who regreted having him. How sad.
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Jul 29, 2008 10:33:17 AM CDT
THUNDEBOLT IS RIGHT - WIKI IS RELIABLE WHERE SOLID REFS ARE CITE
by bringingsexyback
and Morbid simply hates being exposed for being wrong.
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Sorry if this has already been covered, but are you really morbidly obese?
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and see what a happy, loving, normal childhood looks like.
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My editing on the second-to-last post was no bueno. I'm multi-tasking to the nth degree here, if that's an acceptable excuse.
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I knew it couldn't have to do with any kind of respect for women or their reproductive freedom. Nope. Just your conservative ideology.
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Morbid once confessed to his eating disorder. Some compulsive behavior linked to his feelings of inadequacy and insecurity.
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Remember that time your Rascal broke down and you had to walk 5 feet to see Sex and the City? I told you then that the shrill wheezing in the theater probably didn't bother anyone.
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At least SATC fits right along with his age group.
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Hmm?
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Bush and the NeoCons are all sociopathic and psychopathic. Well said.
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Jul 29, 2008 10:58:38 AM CDT
THIS COMING FROM THE GUY WHO MOCKS OBAMA'S BLACKNESS?!?!!?
by bringingsexyback
Are you making a funny?!
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If we're not being 100% literal, it's kind of true.
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Well we were intiating sanctions and embargoes on Japan to deter their imperial ambitions in the far east, including oil which they were vitally dependent on. Not to mention building up our militray presence for months leading up to the attack. That's not exactly "nothing" but yes they attacked first.
As for economic targets. Innocent is a relative term I guess. Civilian status doesn't necessarily make one innocent of a crime. -
Do tell
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I can't argue with that double standard. Really.
Just that a hell of a lot of Americans and Iraqis are now dead because of "perceptions", "ostensible" actions and "posturing". Bush and the NeoCons are certifiable psychopaths. -
First, Node. You undermine your arguments by adopting the same hateful rhetoric as your opponents. The inference that the innocent civillians in the WTC should be targeted because of what you suspect to be their ultra conservative politics, was a low point for you Node. You are stereotyping people you have never met. Basically condemning them based on their politics (or what you suspect are their politics). Which in reality you have no clue about. Have you ever met a liberal you did not like? How about that dmohrUSC chap? So, the odds are pretty good that you would encounter a conservative that you did like. Someone who has a basic goodness about them, with an ideology that you disagree with. There are many, many such folks. Many were in that building I would guess. But even if they were all ultra conservatives, even if you could not stand them, that is no excsue for them to lose their lives to a terrorist bombing. Do you understand that Node? I mean really? We can disagree with peoples politics without dehumanizing them. They were sons and daughters and mothers and fathers. They did not desreve to be killed. anchorite. To understand why targets are being chosen for an attack, is not being a psychopath or sociopath. It is being a pragmatist. A realist. Attacking military installations, while it has been done in the past, does not engender the 'terror' that terrorists want to generate. Innocent civillian targets do. Add to that, financial targets that could disrupt our economy, and you have a created a target that serves multiple purposes. The people guarding our country need to be able to think outside of the box. Need to be able to think about targets that will hurt us. I truly hope they do not think like you, and have learned from 9/11. Learned that it will not be a military target attacked. I hope they do not think it psychopathic to plan and prepare for attacks on soft targets - or we will be in for even greater devastation in the future.
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You want to know what else is a weapon of mass destruction? A machette, AK-47 and famine. Pol Pot, Pinochet, Baby Doc, Amin, Suharto, Milosevic, al-Bashir, Haile and Tito were all guilty of mass murder or genocide and yet the majority of the world sat around and did nothing.And to quote you, "When it's convenient for the terrorists, America is A-OKAY, but as soon as we piss them off, oh well.... we're 'OPPRESSING THEM."Ummmmm, you do know about Noriega and Saddam right? When it's convenient for American interests, dictators are A-OKAY, but as soon as they piss us off, oh well.... they're murderous dictators. It's OK when they butcher their own people by the boatload, but when they take out Americans, they've crossed the line? Wow, what a messed up line.Your thinking is repulsive.
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Saying "my babies' daddy" is not saying "my BabyDaddy" as much as you want it to be.
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"Bush was exactly the type of president we needed for the past eight years". Wow, I would hate to think how things would have turned out without him, then...
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Wow, HOD. I am a dangerous fool? Every point you made was made with hindsight thinking. Instead of judging the WMD argument with a point of view of when it was made, you decide to judge the decision based on what we know now with no consideration for any of the facts at the time. 1. Saddam said he had WMDs and he refused to allow inspectors to examine the plants. How would you – I am sorry, how would a person with no political axe to grind interpret that? Most normal people, including most of the ultra liberal politicians believed he had them. 2. We were in a hyper state of paranoia thanks to 9/11. 3. We had every right under the treaty to remove him from power if he balked on weapons inspections. Whether he did or did not have WMDs is irrelevant. To use the same logic that you and some other here have, he got what was coming to him by lying.
You, sir, are more dangerous that I will ever be since you seem dangerously close to believing in conspiracy theories. The White House is preventing staff from testifying because that staff cannot be doing their jobs if they are constantly being called to hearing after hearing on political witch hunts. This new Congress has done next to nothing except try and indict every member of the Bush administration from W on down. We’ve got two battle grounds, a lending and mortgage industry that is corrupt and destroying our economy and greedy oil companies thrown in and yet they act on nothing (neither party) except to try and indict one more Bush staffer. It is a colossal waste of time.
I am truly sorry that you cannot see how Fox News and MSNBC are simply two sides of the same coin. You are truly close-minded; someone who seems to think that anyone who thinks like they do can never be biased or strong-armed. How many times has Chris Matthews stacked his guest panel? How many times has he talked over and chastised guests who do not believe as he does? He is the same as Bill O’Reilly just with a different political agenda. How many times has David Gregory angrily fought with the White House Press Secretary when he was assigned to the press corps? Was it for getting at the truth? I am sure in his mind it was, but in reality he was arguing a political view, something that he was not paid to do. By the way, name one person who speaks on Fox who said they wanted Obama assassinated. Name one person other than Ann Coulter who uses Obama’s middle name on purpose (She’s just a guest not an employee). On the flip side you have Olbermann on MSNBC who resorts to childish journalism and calls Bush names who devotes every episode of his show to attacking Bush. Dan Rather sacrificed journalistic integrity on CBS to try and destroy Bush. Every news channel on TV is biased one way or the other. Every one, not just the ones who disagree with you. I watch three news channels to try and get every side of a story so I can make up my own mind. You seem to be a sheep who believes anything you want to hear without asking any questions. You are the dangerous one.
The only thing I will marginally agree with you on is that people who do feel passionately about their country, even if they disagree with policies, should stay and fight for their beliefs. My main point in that argument is with people who see no good at all in their country, who hate it, who want to see it completely changed. I say this because if you hate it, and you want it completely changed, then you are not passionate about it and should leave. It may be hard for someone so filled with hate to understand, but you can both feel that your country is #1 and still disagree with its policies. On the whole, America is a great place, full of great people and founded out great ideas. The problems are from politicians on both sides and with people like you who will never see the value in compromise, who will hate an idea on principle because the other side thought of it, and people who think that their way is the only way with no wiggle room. It will be the left and right-wing nuts who destroy us, not any terrorist.
Your argument about the 2004 Iraq wedding makes no sense to me. Are you really comparing an accidental bombing to a deliberately planned attack? If you are then you are horrifically misguided. If you are holding out for a war where only the soldiers and bad people get killed then you’ll be waiting a long time. And no, I would not forgive Bin Laden. His was a consciously chosen act, not a random accident. I cannot believe that someone who thinks he is intelligent doesn’t get the difference.
Finally, I said that people today would have never allow us into WWII, not all liberals wouldn’t do it, but the growing number of ultra left-wingers would brainwash a shocking number of American people too apathetic to think for themselves into thinking that we deserved to get bombed at Pearl Harbor.
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The Pentagon is unquestionably a legitimate military target, anchorite, but if civilians were in it at the time they are not necessarily legitimate targets. I'm not saying the civilians in the Pentagon and WTC (not the airline passengers, support staff, police, ff's) are legitimate because they may have once committed a crime. I'm saying that civilians within those establishments responsible for supporting crimes against humanity or economic coercion (both of which we have committed in the Middle East for decades) may be.
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Toadkillerdog, I take back my comments about respecting your opinion because of your military record. I don’t agree with you so you call me a dolt and say that I need to grow up. That’s real mature and I am glad that most military people I know are more respectful than you are. Your last post to me made no sense. I never said you were aligning yourself with anything. What I said was that you were in danger of it. You obviously have your reasons for being against the war in Iraq and I will not pretend to understand what those reasons are. We got attacked. There was a dictator in the Middle East who shared terrorist sympathies about attacking us. He lied about WMDs and got attacked back. As a military man can you please explain to dumb old, immature me how you are supposed to win any war not just a war on terror, but any war at all when you will only attack after your enemy has attacked you. It cannot be done. We took preemptive action and I am solidly behind it. I am tired of worrying about when the next terror attack will be or who will be behind it.
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"that launched the allies counter-attack, and signaled the beginning of the end of WWII."
Whilst I agree with much of what you've written here, TKD, I don't really think that D-Day was the beginning of the end. I mean, the Wehrmacht were fucked long before then. After Kursk in mid-1943 they had no realistic chance of winning. D-Day was all about hastening an inevitable demise, and in retrospect its most important long-term consequence was not the defeat of Germany (that was already certain) but the securing of western Europe's freedom from communism. And most westerners are ignorant of the fact that while the US/UK/Canadian forces were pressing inland from Normandy, a much larger series of battles was taking place on the eastern front (the USSR's Operation Bagration) which resulted in the virtual obliteration of the German Army Group Centre. (Not that I think you don't know all this stuff, as your refreshing nod to the Soviets indicated.) -
I wasn't implying that civillians in the WTC should be targeted because of their ultra conservative politics, I'm saying that those civilians within those buildings responsible for abetting crimes against humanity and economic destruction could be seen as legitimate targets.
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Heath Ledger VP...
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I do not take back a thing. You are a dolt. First your own words. From your last post to me: "I never said you were aligning yourself with anything. What I said was that you were in danger of it." Now, what you really said to me last night. "Like I said, though, I disagree. You align yourself with that attitude that we deserved to be attacked on 9/11 because of thing we had done in the past.". You are an idiot. Your own words show your contradiction and lying. As for WMD's. North Korea had them. North Korea was ACTIVELY exporting nuclear technology to the midle east - Syria ring a bell? Iraq did not. Iraq was shown time and time again not to have WMD's. Iraq was not invaded because of WMD's though. The war planning against Iraq took place long before 9/11. Former Bush admin cabinet members have written about it. The former Treasury Sec'y wrote about it. No, not some conspiracy, Iraq was targeted by the neocons as part of a strategy to change the political landscape of the middle east. 9/11 was camped on to to provide cover. If we had really wanted to attack a country that was dangerous to our interests, North Korea would have been it. But we talked to them. Diplomacy worked. Like I said, you are a lying idiot whose own words contradict what you have to say.
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Your first, long response to Rand was a great piece of writing. You rock.
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You obviously have your reasons for being against the war in Iraq and I will not pretend to understand what those reasons are.
Because he wants to remain willfully ignorant.
We got attacked. There was a dictator in the Middle East who shared terrorist sympathies about attacking us.
And that justifies an illegal invasion and occupation?
He lied about WMDs and got attacked back.
How exactly did he lie about WMDs. We never found any if I recall.
As a military man can you please explain to dumb old, immature me how you are supposed to win any war not just a war on terror, but any war at all when you will only attack after your enemy has attacked you. It cannot be done.
Fighting a war on terror is not the same as fighting a war on a country. For one thing it's impossible to beat something as broad-based as terrorism.
We took preemptive action and I am solidly behind it.
What if I told you I'm going to shoot you now because you might someday try to kill me after I provoked you into doing so?
I am tired of worrying about when the next terror attack will be or who will be behind it.
Don't. That's what the Republicans want you to keep fearing so you'll keep voting for them. You have a better chance of getting struck by lightning. -
It was, kinda...inasmuch as it was invaded because it DIDN'T have them. If it had had nuclear weapons, there's no way the coalition forces would have gone in. Iraq 2003 sent a clear message to other nations: develop nuclear weapons or you will be vulnerable to invasion.
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That is the danger - in retrospect, that is. Yes, in retrospect it falls into place. But at the time, it was not so certain. Germany was still strong. And there was still a fear that some super weapon would be deployed. The atomic bomb had not been dropped on Japan as of yet, and german scientists were frantically trying to create one of their own. That being said, Germany was going to fall. Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin were already carving up eastern Europe. But Germany was still a power to be reckoned with. As I pointed out, and you noted, it was the Eastern Front that had more casualties than all theatres combined. It was the Russians who bore the heaviest brunt of the cost in lives lost. No doubt had the Allies not counter-attacked through Normandy, the Russians would have pressed unchecked into Berlin. That was part of the counter-attack strategy. There was no certainty. Drawing off part of the German army helped the eastern front. It hastened the end of the war. It also served as a deterrent to greater Russian control.
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Everything you said is discredited when you claim that people who are trying to do their job should be exempt from hearings. That's not an excuse. If someone breaks the law, they break the law. And I doubt very much you saying the same thing during the Clinton witch hunts.I'm not saying that MSNBC is good journalism. It's not. But stacking a deck on a panel and insulting the president every night is different than slipping in "misspeak" after "misspeak" until your viewership believes it. An incredible amount of Americans actually think Obama's a Muslim and it's not the left or MSNBC who put that idea in their heads. The mainstream media is garbage and I have no use for CNN or MSNBC, but Fox News is the lowest of the low.And if you weren't such a closed minded idiot, you would see the bigger picture of my wedding reference. The wedding is indicative of the tens of thousands of Iraqis that have been killed and the millions who became refugees. Even though the bulk of those casualties have been at the hands of warring factions and not American soldiers, the end result is the same: the victims families and refugees will look at who was ultimately responsible. That's the sort of thing that breeds terrorists.And you really are a rhetoric machine. "We took preemptive action and I am solidly behind it. I am tired of worrying about when the next terror attack will be or who will be behind it."Jesus Christ, you're a bumper sticker. There was "A" dictator in the Middle East? There's more than one. And around the world, there's plenty. And Saddam wasn't even the worst.Anyway, I'm out of this TB and I'm not coming back. There's too many frightening wankers in this country who have a twisted B.S. sense of patriotism and a skewed world outlook.YOU pose a bigger threat to me than a terrorist with that "we're the only ones that matter" thinking.
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Your words: "Jizzsperminator would liek us to think Bin Lade nwa attacking upper eastsiders and greenich village gays but nothing could be further from the truth. Rest assured that the majority of the peopel i nthat buildign were probably conservative ultra-capitalists, with the possible exception of any innocent police or firefighters that happened to be left-leaning (50% maybe)." I like you Node - for the most oart. But even giving you the benefit of the doubt, a pretty dispassionate reading of what you posted would clearly indicate that you think only the police - and only 50% of them - the left leaning ones, are innocent.
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You have posted the stupidiest thing ever on any AICN thread: "Bush has decisively defeated them on that score. Only very recently has the economy faltered in any way, thanks primarily to the Dems' idiotic ban on oil drilling (had we drilled in ANWR when Bush wanted us too we wouldn't be paying 4 bucks a gallon for gas right now)." You are such a misguided idiot it's laughable. Pick up a few books and read from time to time instead of parroting Faux News talking points. Jerkoff.
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"People who feel passionately enough about their country even if they think it's lost its way and want to stay to fight the good fight and wrestle control of it away from the corrupt and insane are the real patriots."
Never a truer word spoken. -
HoboCode, it makes perfect sense you support this war on Iraq, after all you are the same douche bag apologist for Stalin's genocide and the Holocaust, all good bed fellows in my opinion. You are sick and delusional, and a dangerous individual. Please cut off your own tongue.
Rand-- Fuck you for taking HOD away from the TB that matters!! FUCK YOU! -
This is how you make a paragraph:
p
>
All on the same line.
That should help the rest of us read your laser-sharp liberal-killing posts. Wow. You really area force to be reckoned with.
By the way, as I seem to have to keep repeating to self-proclaimed conservatives, I'm a fucking conservative. Or at least I used to be, I guess I'm more of a moderate now. Your attack on me was somewhat baffling and nonsensical, since you obviously didn't understand that what you read was a response to someone else. I'm not really sure why you took such personal offense at what I wrote, since it was a conversation you weren't even a part of.
Honestly, this is interesting to me. When I write my posts, they make sense to me. My intention, usually, if it's a post like the one you read, is to criticize an attitude that I consider wrong-headed, especially if that attitude is considered to be a conservative one. Why? Because that's my team. I let the liberals figure out their stuff on their own, clean their own house. When someone like Cantankerous shows up and starts spewing half-baked hateful bullshit around in the name of conservatism, I give him a slap. That's the responsibility of the elder. Kids these days, man. Kids these days.
Conservatism is supposed to be about conserving something, an idea of America that is equal parts idealistic and responsible, not this isolationist, xenophobic, paranoid, genocidal sociopathy I see in kids like Cantankerous, Morbid, you and others. And don't even get me started on the idea of patriotism. You crazy kids couldn't define patriotism if Thomas Jefferson himself pulled you out of your seat by your ear. You're a bunch of thugs who've grown up believing that Might IS right, and anyone who disagrees is a pussy. Well, from me, and the rest of the legitimate, thinking conservatives hanging around these boards, I proudly deliver a resounding fuck you.
Stick to what you know, re-writing history, parroting the party-line, clearing a path for your lords and masters with sticks and stones, silencing dissent, and picking on the weak. Your mothers should be so proud.
Just a quick question before I go- If you think I'm the kind of American that should 'leave', because I'm not exactly like you, maybe you should leave too. Don't just go anywhere, though. Why not sign up for a free trip over to the middle east? I hear they're just desperate for young men over there. You'd be serving your country, and maybe you'd have your eyes opened, for once. -
"Only very recently has the economy faltered in any way"
Yeah, similarly, five years ago I borrowed a million bucks from the bank with no intention of paying it back. For four and a half years my personal finances were in great shape, and I enjoyed fast cars, great hotels and first rate meals in restaurants. It's only very recently that my finances have faltered, but aside from the bit where the bailiffs took everything away and I was declared bankrupt with my wages set to be garnished for the rest of my life, my plan was excellent and had led to unquestionable prosperity. -
"We took preemptive action and I am solidly behind it. I am tired of worrying about when the next terror attack will be or who will be behind it."If you're so tired of worrying, then go over there and fight, you chickenhawk douche. You whitebread pansies are a disease.
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It took me two hours to write that response. I'm glad to know there are guys like in this country. Gives me hope.
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One thing that interests me is people cna get so blinkered in their partisan support of a president when they wouldn't do it in any other walks of life. For example, let's say you support the Atlanta Falcons, and they hire a head coach who appears to make idiotic decisions that lead to ruinous results on the field for two seasons. How do you regard this guy? He's one of yours, a Falcon, one of your tribe, so you always defend him against all criticism, right? Err, no, you're embarrassed that he's leading your tribe to disaster, criticize him openly in front of friends, and long for his ouster. So why does Bush get treated differently? Is it because people who voted for him can't cope with the cognitive dissonance when trying to square their one-time enthusiastic support and exercise of political will (voting) with the clear reality that their chosen candidate is, in fact, an utter clown? And furthermore that nobody would blame a Falcons fan for the incompetence of their head coach whereas people will blame Bush voters for the incompetence of Bush?
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...I woke up this morning and my dog was attached to the ceiling. "Attached" maybe isn't the best word as he wasn't clawed or glued onto the ceiling but more just sitting there looking down(up) at me. Obviously unprepared for such a sight, I nearly dropped my vegemite tonic and almost slapped the shrunken head totem hanging from my wine rack! When I asked my usually Earth bound friend what the situation was, he just smiled and said, "Your world is at an end."Needless to say, I've locked up the remotes and have implied serious punitive measures for watching cable when we're not home. All I need is my dog to want to join the IRA or something. Or start talking about whether or not Shane is dead. Although he did shit all over my neighbors straw, handmade flip-flops. Bought him his own bag of gourmet coffee beans for that charming delight. He promised to get it on film next time. I told him to get the neighbor's reaction on film...not him shitting on the sandals.
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Seriously, some killer posts there gentlemen.
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I saw one which had John McCain winning all 50 states.
Maybe that tells us something about the voting habits of the people who use the site - but one thing we can say about the election with certainty is that there is no way the Republicans are winning all 50 states. -
Just thought I'd mention that as no-one seems to have earlier. GW Bush had majorities in both houses for the first 6 years of his presidency and as for blaming congress now for things - well you'd also have to blame the Repulicans for bad things resulting from their much longer period of control too, wouldn't you?
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Good carnage!
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Jul 29, 2008 1:51:14 PM CDT
Good Job Toadkillerdog and Hawaiian Organ Donor
by freds_balls_in_a_mason_jar
You too samsqaunch - Fred could not fit your name on subject though. Fred learned things here.
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I stopped 2 hours ago. Get a hold of yourself, loon.
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I DON'T support the war in Iraq, numbnuts. Maybe you should brush up on your reading skills.
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Dude. You know I like you but I have to say this and I hope you take it to heart.
The people who died on 9/11, whether they were in Washington, NYC or Pennsylvania, were all innocent people. They were all simply going to work, to earn their pay, or on a flight going somewhere, anywhere. Not one person was a legitimate nor reasonable target, just like the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis or Afghanis are not.
Sorry, but I don't want to think like a terrorist or some global hegemonic NeoCon in thinking any person is a reasonable target other than actual perpetrators themselves.
The people responsible for killing all those thousands of people, be they the hijackers or those who helped plan and facilitate the attacks, are all criminals. Same goes for the NeoCon cabal who instigated this hideous mess in Iraq. I don't know how someone can plot the deaths of innocent people, "reasonable targets" or otherwise, as easily as Lex Luthor but there you go. We got some fucked up people in this fucked up world. -
But I also see the Pentagon as "perpetrators" of mass death in countless regions around the world, so it would be hypocritical of me to say that it is not a semi-legitimate or reasonable target for someone wishing to get the U.S. military out of their country.
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Maybe you should call yourself BringingReasonBack.Very well said, good sir.
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HOD, I say good riddance to you. Again, it takes a lot to piss me off and you succeeded. I asked you to name one other person on Fox who uses Obama’s middle name. You chose to insult me rather than answer. I said I watch all of the news and I have never heard anything at Fox except them trying to say that Obama is not Muslin. That goes for O’Reilly, Hannity and the others. It is Coulter that is the problem. Also there is no way that MSNBC is any better. Matthews spent nearly a week propping up MCClellands’s book that was filled with unsubstantiated conspiracy nonsense. Matthews treated it as if it were inarguable fact. The two networks are the same. You don’t see that because you are partisan, or at least appear to be.
You chose a horrible reference with the wedding argument and then accuse me of being close-minded. Jesus, step up to the plate and defend your comments. It doesn’t matter if it was a wedding or what. There is no comparison between any accidental killing and a deliberate one.
Yes, there is more than one dictator in the Middle East. You want us to go after every one at once? Sooner or later the people over there are going to have to deal with their own dictators and I think that was the point of Iraq. We had a reason to go in there and were hoping that the people would rise up. They didn’t and that’s that.
BTW, thanks for the F U comment. It does my heart good to see that kind of intelligent repose to a serious critique.
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I made a serious miscalculation with you three. I assumed we could have a serious debate and I should have known better. You are, all three, adamantly convinced that you three alone are right and anyone who disagrees is not only wring, but delusional, war-mongering and xenophobic. Oh yeah and because I chose to think differently I am worse than a terrorist. I got it loud and clear.
How do you like the new html coding Samsquanch? Does it make my argument more valid now that I have paragraph breaks? I have to say I thought that was a very juvenile response to someone who disagrees.
Our views on what conservatism is and what patriotism should be are too different. I am not going to waste anymore time on it with you. Do think though that you won. I simply realize that arguing my argument here is like fighting a fight where the odds are 20-1. If you could have remained civil, I would have enjoyed it even if we had disagreed. You couldn't though and so I will not waste anymore time on you.
I will go back to reading the news here and ignoring the talkbacks. It is, after all, the only sensible thing to do. It is just too frightening in here. -
Hawaiian: Thanks. I'm sure Morbid will agree with that ...
Node: Thanks for listening with an open mind, but I just want to add that the institution of the Pentagon does not equate to the persons working therein. There are lots of good people at the Pentagon, lots of people on the inside who have spoken out against this Administration in the last 8 years (which says a lot about how drastic things must be for them to be so vocal about their opinions). -
Try this on for size. You accused me of aligning with those who say we 'deserved' 9/11. When, I never said any such thing. And in fact my posts say the exact opposite. But then you compounded it, by saying that you never accused me of saying I was aligning with . So, I posted both of your statements, the one in which you lied, and the one in which you accuse me of aligning. I noticed you are not addressing those statements of yours at all while you pick your ball up and go home. So, yes. You are an idiot. I stand by that 100%.
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Very well said BSB. Let me add for Node's benefit, there are thousands of civillian contractors who work in the Pentagon. Simply people who have a job at the Pentagon, but in no way are a part of the military planning. They are completely innocent. But an airplane rammed into the building does not discriminate. Just think Node, before you spout off.
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Your gentlemanly sensibilities were offended, were they? A thousand apologies, good sir. I must have been provoked by the other guy who told me to leave the country because he didn't like me. wah.
So, when did you invite "serious debate" then? Was it when you accused me of being an ultra-liberal nutcase who hates America? Or maybe it was when you accused me of being "anti-white" (!?)...
Riiight. You shouldn't get down here in the muck with me. It's beneath someone who exhibits such caliber of character.
as for the paragraph breaks favor: You're welcome. -
You interjected yourself into the debate - and in a non-civil manner; at least towards me, from your very first post. Do not try and re-write history - which is written up above, or act like the injured party who only wanted a serious debate. A serious debate does not start off with A) completely miscontrueing and or misunderstanding what someone has posted. And B) Leading off with your first post with an insult. So, maybe you had better stay away from these boards until you learn how to read and write.
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Rand92 is a total idiot. His posts are there plain as day, insulting you and me, and doing so in his very first postings, and yet he thinks he can play the injured party card? Hilarious.
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Because you think in obsolutes and you're someone who wants other people to do their dirty work for them.If you believe in this war, if fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them over here is a mantra you are in 100% agreement over, then go join the reserves. If you're physically capable then you should be in Iraq upholding your beliefs. As you know, our military is stretched thin. The call has gone out. They need all the help they can get. It seems to me a real honest to Jebus patriot that supports Bush and this war is obligated to serve so that they can make this country safer.The way you leave the heavy lifting to other people is reprehensible. That's why I insult you. Because you insult every man and woman who wears a uniform.We don't have to go after every dictator, but go after public enemy number one first. Going after Saddam first is like an emergency room admitting the guy with the broken leg before the guy with the gaping head wound.
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"his tax cuts rescued us, for god's sake, according to many economists"
Which ones? The same ones who said the housing market was in great shape in 2006? Give me some names here...
The US economy is drunk on debt, because nobody had the balls to bite the fiscal bullet and accept a period of having to work hard rather than whooping it up and treating the expanding credit bubble as a never-ending source of free money. (Nasdaq = free money! Oops, oh dear, but hang on...housing market = free money! Oops, oh dear, but hang on...) Greenspan has to take a major chunk of the flak for that as well. Bernanke...well, it's hard to tell. He thinks that opening the M3 spigots and turning the country into an economically socialist state (hey, let's just redistribute money from savers and workers to idiots and speculators, and from future generations to the current bunch of feckless goofs) is the way to go, but I guess he can't be blamed for the situation he inherited. -
I am glad I could make you all feel better. I especially liked the absolutes remark. I also liked the fact the you consider strong disagreements as insults. If you felt insulted that I called your thinking nut-ball,ultra liberal then you may have a slight beef there. However I didn't call you an idiot. I didn't tell you to fuck off. I certainly didn't call you stupid. To me there is a difference. Notice I didn't get offended at being called right-wing or whatever. I only objected to name-calling and juvenile insults to what I thought was an argument as well thoughtout as yours. I disageed with you though and we both responded to that disagreement in different ways.
BTW, Toad, can you please enlighten me to the proper etiquette when entering a debate? See I don't spend all my time here so I sometimes miss the start of these things. So, just let me know how to properly get involved. I am allowed to I would assume, or is this kind of a private conversation on a public board? BTW, I wasn't uncivil to you either. Actually with you, I started out much more kindly than I did to Samsquanch because I thought you might be better at debating the points. You educated me on that though and I fully admit to being wrong on that point.
If being passionate about my beliefs is somehow insulting to you two because they differ from what is usually said around here then I can do nothing but humbly beg your pardon. I have never understood why some people take passionate disagreements as personal insults. -
We probably don't agree on everything, but something that we obviously do agree on is that there seems to be an overwhelming trend these days that deserves to be challenged- the trend of the mouthy pre-packaged soundbite armchair right-winger. To point out every time they expose their own hypocrisy would be an exhausting exercise, like the non-sequitur deflecting point-
eg: "You say Bush is a scumbag, well Clinton was a scumbag too!
-or-
"You say Fox is bad, well, what about MSNBC??"
As if we even brought up Clinton or MSNBC in the first place, and they aren't words being placed in our mouths. Even if we do bring those examples up, the idea that one cancels out the other is ludicrous.
I grew up in an Irish Catholic home, deeply conservative, community minded, pretty poor, and pretty racist/homophobic/misogynist, but over the course of my lifetime I've seen my family and my community transform, from being a backwards, isolated, fearful group to becoming pretty cosmopolitan, worldly, and educated. I wasn't the first person to start challenging some of the rote beliefs and behaviors of my clan, but I was instrumental, if I do say so myself. My family has always been politically aware, but it wasn't until the early 90's that things really started shifting around. My family and my neighborhood still consider themselves to be pretty hardcore conservative, but we can openly discuss Obama's merits and flaws without even bringing up his race, we can discuss issues like gay marriage, abortion, and the war in Iraq with as much fairness and insight as any ivory tower Liberal. This is huge, and I'm very proud of my people.
It's distressing, and frustrating, to see a counter-trend happening elsewhere in the country. It seems like at the same time my community was becoming more open-minded, more realistic, and more practical about what it means to be American, the rest of the country was retreating, withering its scope of understanding, drawing the blinds and becoming willfully ignorant, fearful, and isolated. I have to admit, it's been quite a disappointment, to come out from the rock we'd been hiding under, ready to join the world, and discover the world had found its own rock to crawl under.
That's why I get frustrated with people who call themselves conservative, but what they really are is something else. These people aren't trying to 'conserve' liberty, freedom, the American way, or anything that makes this country great, and gives us all a reason to be proud. No, they're trying to Preserve some older, primitive 'us vs them' mentality, some version of America that has nothing to do with the founding principles, but has everything to do with power and might for its own sake. Bush and his administration represent the pinnacle of that attitude, an oligarchy of political opportunists who couldn't give two shits about the flag, except of course for when its convenient to wrap themselves in it. My family has always voted Republican. We are Republicans, and proud of it. What I see occupying the White House, changing laws, waging wars, spending our wealth, carrying out hideous policies in our name, are aliens. They are fucking alien to me. This is not my Party. These are not Republicans.
This new crop of so-called "conservatives", these idiot kids who think they're patriotic when they tell someone to leave their own country, these followers, these conformists, these weak-minded sheep who think that patriotism means being proud of being the biggest, toughest, most brutal bully on the block, these are the people who are the inheritors and benificiaries of the Bush Republicans. They aren't taught to think, they aren't taught to question, they aren't expected to do anything but toe the party line, keep their mouths shut, an obey. Does that sound American to you?
The really sad thing is, that my poor, uneducated, fearful community of a generation ago was actually more progressive than the young people who have every advantage of wealth, privilege and technology today.
I fear for the future. -
I don't think I'm "spouting off." Just thinking out loud I guess. I'm wondering (philosophically I suppose) whether anyone can be innocent who supports an illegal war machine in any way? I wonder whether any of us is innocent in a democracy. Afterall, we elected some of the key planners and abetters of the Iraq War. Does that mean we deserve what's coming to us? Aren't we responsible for the atrocities our elected government? I wonder.
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"the rest of the country was retreating, withering its scope of understanding, drawing the blinds and becoming willfully ignorant, fearful, and isolated."
In my experience the strongest psychological factors that push people away from considering the merits of position X and keeps them firmly within the bounds of position Y are:
1. X, if true, makes me feel slightly bad about myself, or my country, or my party. I don't like that feeling, so I'll prefer position Y, which makes me feel good about myself.
2. Evaluating position X, its consequences and its suggested actions, involves more mental work than does position Y. It's more nuanced and complicated, there are more factors to consider, and I may have to do some non-trivial reading/research to assess it properly. I really can't be bothered with all that complexity and hard work, so it's Y for me all the way.
And of course there's also
3. I'm in tribe A. Position X is held mainly by people in tribe B, and tribe A people don't like tribe B people. Therefore I wouldn't dream of holding position X. Y is the position of my tribe. (This is really a subvariant of reason 1, as my self-identification with tribe A inclines me to always cheer for tribe A positions and boo tribe B positions, to feel good about myself.) -
In my experience the strongest psychological factors that push people away from considering the merits of position X and keeps them firmly within the bounds of position Y are:
1. X, if true, makes me feel slightly bad about myself, or my country, or my party. I don't like that feeling, so I'll prefer position Y, which makes me feel good about myself.
2. Evaluating position X, its consequences and its suggested actions, involves more mental work than does position Y. It's more nuanced and complicated, there are more factors to consider, and I may have to do some non-trivial reading/research to assess it properly. I really can't be bothered with all that complexity and hard work, so it's Y for me all the way.
And of course there's also
3. I'm in tribe A. Position X is held mainly by people in tribe B, and tribe A people don't like tribe B people. Therefore I wouldn't dream of holding position X. Y is the position of my tribe. (This is really a subvariant of reason 1, as my self-identification with tribe A inclines me to always cheer for tribe A positions and boo tribe B positions, to feel good about myself.) -
And it provides a bit on insight into how those in power are able to manipulate position Y for their own benefit. In fact, position Y is literally constructed as a facsimile to X by those in power, in order to more easily control the people who are susceptible to such mental shenanigans. Y resembles X just enough so that those who've been prodded and influenced away from what they think is their position, namely X, that supporting Y doesn't require too much intellectual gymnastics to explain to themselves why they've betrayed their core beliefs. Neato.
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I know I said I was through, Samsquanch, but I read one of your last posts and just had to go back and check something. About your remark that "the mouthy pre-packaged soundbite armchair right-winger" just has to rbing up how biased MSNBC is when people diss Fox News. I nptoced how you said that you never brought up MSNBC in the first place. True, but what you did do, and I went back and looked to make sure, is brought up how biased you think Fox is. Can you blame those people then for bring up MSNBC? I know I did, but it was not to defend Fox, it was to indict the news in general.
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By that stage there was really not much of a chance that they could develop an atomic bomb. In fact nill. Years earlier they stood not just a good chance but were the front runners. The allies had destroyed their supply of heavy water and they couldn’t get any more quickly (the allies knew this). The atomic program was just a runt. They had diverted their efforts to the v2s. There best scientist were working on the Manhattan project. They were pushing shit up hill, and Hitler really had no interest in the atomic programme (at this point). And yes, already at this stage they were looking to after the war and preventing the soviets from taking western Europe. This was also a motive for market garden which came not much later.
And hod. I’m not an idiot and do not make fun of anyone in my posts. I do in fact have a degree in economics and while I do not agree with morbid and I do agree that the US is in recession-like conditions when I went to the bea to get the facts (hoping to say he was wrong) they did not bear out that he was wrong and I was not going to say that they did just because it was convenient. The US may be in recession (there is a lag period) but as there was positive gdp growth in the first quarter of this year the default position would be that it is near but not in one.
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still i mostly agree with the rest of what you said
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there was a coca-cola meeting on the 80th floor and a pop-rocks meeting on the 79th floor. both with tons of free samples... believe it.
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That was in interesting philosophical question you brought up. First (and I know this is debatable) I do not believe this was an illegal war. I wont go into why as I have already done that. Second, where in society do you draw the line? If we are responsible for the actions of our elected officials and thus deserve a fate like 9/11 does that responsibility extend down to our children who cannot vote? Does it extend to people who voted for a candidate who turned out to be nothing like he presented himself in an election? Where does it end? It is an interesting question, but I do not believe the citizens are responsible since they really have no authority over what a candidate does once he or she is elected.
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should have no problem with america signing the hague conventions
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I wanted to ignore your last post to me, but couldn't since you accused me of something I do not think I did (I am not debating the war with you anymore though since I don't think it will be civil). Yes, I accused you of aligning yourself to people who think we deserve 9/11. I will give you the chance to prove I missunderstood you since I do not, despite the claims, deal in absolutes. I feel strongly, yes, but I can admit when I am wrong.
I went back to the original post that I read that made me want to respond to you. You said this, "We by our policies, created the environments in which extremist points of view could be turned against us. Note: Those extremists would have existed whether or not the U.S. existed or not. But because of some of our policies, we helped point them in our direction." Now tell me why I am wrong for taking that statement as indictating that we are responsible for 9/11 and thus, tho some extent, deserve what we got. I am willing to hear you out if you can refrain from insulting me. -
I have no problem with the Hague Conventions.
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and dose not accept its jurisdiction over its citizens
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Well, maybe America should have signed. I don't see why it should be an issue.
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my bad, i meant the icc at the hague.
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Damn! There goes one of the few photo opportunities McCain had with someone in the Republican Party who actually looks older than him.
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If you want to enter a discussion, which on these boards you are most welcome to do, and if you want to have a serious discussion, regardless of which side of the issue you fall on, never open your very first statement with an insult. And especially one based on very faulty logic or misundertsanding of someones position. What I wrote regarding so called justifcation was "...there is no justfying a cowardly attack. I understand why they chose to do so, but I will never grant them a just cause to do it. That being said, the motivations were born out of multiple perceived - real and otherwise, trangressions. Bin laden was trained along with the Mooj - mujahedin, in the soviet era. He was our animal". The snippet that you posted -I stand by 100%. But I will post the entire quote for greater perspective and context. "You see, that is the danger on both sides, that we see them as American/western freedom hating religious zealots. And they see us as warmongering, empire building, destroyers of their culture. Neither is correct and both are. The answer, as with most things is complex and lies in the middle. We by our policies, created the environments in which extremist points of view could be turned against us. Note: Those extremists would have existed whether or not the U.S. existed or not. But because of some of our policies, we helped point them in our direction. " Do you really think actions have no consequence? That actions and reactions spring from a vacuum of thought? Acknowledging that actions have a starting point - or at least an origin, does not justify the consequence. But it does better enable us to understand them and possibly prevent them from occuring again. Too often people refuse to accept that every action has a consequence. Some people are so jingoistic and narrow minded that they can not see that we live in a vast interlocking world where not everyone agrees with one another, and that sometimes we may actually be in the wrong about things. None of my words, those you picked and those you chose to ignore in any way justified or aligned myself with those who justify the attacks. But if we do not learn from the attacks, we are vulnerable to more. I wrote in depth about this in an earlier post to anchorite. Just scroll up and read it . And yes, read first and comprehend, before you launch yourself into a discussion.
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I FUCKIN' LOVE AICN!!!That's 4 glasses of wine and two beers talking. But how I do love the discussions on this site.
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you're a strange kid. but i like you
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Kirk Douglas and the heroes of Telemark, did indeed destroy the heavy water supply of the NAZIS. The Atom bobm was not the primary motivator though of the allied invasion - nor did I say it was. You and Kaitain make some good points though. Germany was wounded - mortally, but the very fact that she could still fight a war on two fronts, proved just how dangerous she still was. D-day gets too much credit for ending the war, but it deserves the credit for signalling the beginning of the end. Once the Allies were in full concert. Germany's days were numbered. No doubt that greater considerations to Russian influence also spurred the allies on. But both goals were necessary.
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i pretty much agree. I just love the fact that most of the main dudes who built the bomb for the us were german jews, and that when the us started the germans were leagues ahead. Had he not been so evil, he would have been more likely to succeed. not to mention that many jews fought in the first world war for germany so he would have had more troops. considering how touch and go stalingrad was even small things could make the difference. I have to say it is refreshing to come across an american, one who has been in the military no less who a)isn't largly ignornat of the events of wwii and therefore b)dosen't just totally say 'we did everything while you other guys sat on your hands'. obviously america was the number one combatant on the allied side (when you include asia) but it is demeaning to those of us who lost many to constantly hear that we did nothing.
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don young put into a transportation bill funding for a)a 200mil bridge which is amoung the tallest in the us, almost as tall as the golden gate bridge to conect the town of Ketchikan (pop 7845) with an island that has 50 residents and the area's airport, previously serviced by a ferry that that takes five minutes and is 'pretty darn reliable'. Also, 2billion for a bridge that is 2 miles long and connects anchorage with to a port with one resident and almost no homes or business. but at least they didn't spend the money on health care.
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Okay, I am going to concede your point on the 9/11 attacks. You were making a point about cause and effect without jusitfying the attacks and I read more into it than you intended. In my own defense similar statements are used by people who do feel we deserved to get attacked. Also, there are many situations in which we feel we are very clear in our statements when in fact maybe we're not. That goes for everyone, me included. I do not, however, feel that this is justification for insulting someone. In this case, the mistake was mine and I am owning up to it. I do not however, feel like I am dumb because I misinterpreted your statements. I understand more than most. Believe it or not, I make my living in the English language and it is a legitimate interpretation in literature to read meaning into a passage that the author did not intend. I personally do not subscribe to that, but it is a valid form of interpretation and I do not appreciate being talked down to for not immediately getting your point. Fine, with that said, you have my apology for the misinterpretation.
I'd also like to know what I said in my very first post that you found insulting. I thought it was very civil considering that I was voicing a disagreement. -
... after I said Kerry's records were available online, and that anyone can go look at the goddamn things, this guy is still saying they weren't released!
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I honestly can't see how the following:"We by our policies, created the environments in which extremist points of view could be turned against us. Note: Those extremists would have existed whether or not the U.S. existed or not. But because of some of our policies, we helped point them in our direction."can be taken to mean the US is "responsible for 9/11" and beyond that "we to some extent, deserve what we got"? That was one of the more level-headed, qualified statements I've read on here all day!
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It is all a matter of perspective Ross. Some people use similar lines of reasoning to justify the attacks. Go back and reread some of the other posts to see what I mean. When you feel, as I do, that the U.S government's Middle East policy is not flawed from a idealistic standpoint, and cannot see why terrorists object to it, then it is not that hard to read that post that Toadkiller made and read into it what I did. If you feel as Toadkiller seems to than it is easier to interpret for what it is. I made a mistake by looking it from my own point of view instead of his.
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I know, I ask that in every one of these talkbacks, but in fairness, restating the same point over and over seems to be the thing to do in regards to politics on AICN. Occasionally there's an entertaining talkbacker meltdown or banning, but otherwise, what's the appeal in crafting thoughtful, nuanced counter arguments to the brain dead talking point neanderthalism that drags itself out of its la-z-boy long enough to mock the very concept of enlightened debate in response to the latest inflammatory biopic trailer?
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Put me down in the talkback camp that thinks it should be legal to hunt people like Cantankerous for sport.
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you want to get the public (particularly younger people) to start giving a damn about how their country is run. Bring back the draft.
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Liberal filmmakers would do better in content and boxoffice if they would come up with a film on disgraced Bill Clinton and or the currently disgraced John Edwards rather than choosing boring subject matter like conservative historical figures ie: Nixon, Bush etc.
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I have to admit there might be a reasonable argument to be made. I'm against conscription, but I can definitely hold some ideas in my mind that would seem pretty good, the way things are going.
If you're joking, not funny, because what you said is too true. -
Apology accepted. I do not mind discussing differing viewpoints with anyone, as long as we remain civil. Where you went wrong with me from the first was by saying that I aligned myself with the justifiers. That was the insult, especially considering my posts said the exact opposite. You compounded it by then denying you said i was aligning myself, but was only in danger of aligning myself. However, I do appreciate your apology, and I hope we can move on to substantive discussions. The first being, why do you feel that the U.S. policy in the middle east has been fair? Are you familiar with our history in the region, and I mean for the past fifty years? Take Israel out of the equation - although most Muslims will not. I am a staunch supporter of Israel. But there are other policies that have little to do with Israel. For example, we propped up both Saddam in Iraq - when it suited our purpose, and the Shah in Iran. We dumped them when they no longer were necessary, but the damage had been done. U.S. geopolitical interest - which at the time meant countering Soviet influence, made for very strange bedfellows. But it was the people in the country's that suffered the most. Generations of disaffected young men grew up hating the U.S. because our policies supported oppressive regimes. The Saudi's oil money, and repressive regime, came from American development of the oil fields. Egypt, which has been dominated by a U.S supported dictator - and lets face it anyone in power for over 25 years is a dictator, has cracked down brutally on dissent. Pakistan, which was all but ignored until we needed them for the war in Afghanistan, realizes that U.S. support is a double edged sword, and many are balking at the terms. These are very real, and ceratinly no where near all of the reasons that we are not beloved in that region.
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I do see some point in it, however. I'm always hoping to see that glimmer of dawning realization in the eye of one of these knuckleheads. I don't think they're all bad, I'm sure some are just young and misguided. I don't think a lot of them have ever really heard thoughtful, nuanced counter-arguments to what's been drilled into their heads their whole lives. Maybe just hearing a solid argument once will be enough to get the ball rolling.
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I do see some point in it, however. I'm always hoping to see that glimmer of dawning realization in the eye of one of these knuckleheads. I don't think they're all bad, I'm sure some are just young and misguided. I don't think a lot of them have ever really heard thoughtful, nuanced counter-arguments to what's been drilled into their heads their whole lives. Maybe just hearing a solid argument once will be enough to get the ball rolling.
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I hate that
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I going to bed, but before I do, I just wanted to say, that was an amazing post you wrote about your family and neighborhood. Great writing.
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There's no Law against Republicans trying to make a Movie so instead of all the whining why don't they get off their ass and make a few. If they are so certain about what makes a good or bad Movie then they should put their money where their mouth is for a change.
And since when was Edwards "disgraced" ? Or are you telling us that The National Enquirer is where you get your authorative Political Stories ? They have all denied it and there is absolutely no evidence so Gossip from the Enquirer is just that. Gossip. Unless of course the child in question was the BATBABY! or a Chupacabra!!!
Was Edwards indicted for Lying and accepting bribes or "incentives" or whatever they were supposed to be of up to $250,000 fromn Big Oil companies lately ?
Nope.
That would be Ted Stevens, king of Pork and nearly as friendly to the Oil Giants as McCain.
(because they really ARE down on their luck lately. What with having to hire extra staff to count the mind-boggling profits they are gouging from the people at the pump with their the incredible Gas prices. The very least the Republicans can do for Exxon and their pals at a time like this is bend over. Granting the Oil Gaints their eery whim, like drilling wherever they want to save themselve a few Million Dollars instead of driling all the fields they already have permission for is mere courtesy and can have nothing at all to do with all those Lobbyist pals of McCains) -
The draft has its faults, however when it's your butt on the line and not some strangers it could give a person pause to think.
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I remember seeing that poll right before the Iraq Invasion and hanging my head in despair. After a year of listening to Bush repeat his nightly mantra, "9/11, al-Qaeda, Iraq, Sadaam, Osama!", the majority of our country had been brainwashed into believing a lie. What hope did we have of stopping that mad hysterical rush to unnecessary war?
I imagine the citizens of WWII Germany felt a similar helplessness while watching their country being taken over by war mongers. In similar fashion, anyone questioning the Nazi's rush to war was smeared as being unpatriotic and sympathetic to the enemy. The Nazi's even used the terms "liberal" and "left-wing" as insults to intimidate citizens critical of their war policies! Imagine how far they may have gone if they had Fox News back then? -
Because although the American Intelligence agencies made public that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003 and that the program remains on hold, somehow the Media is still pushing the nonsense that they have a bomb or are just about to get one.
The more you hear that lie on the main News channels (like Saddam being responsible for 9/11 & Iraq having WMD) the more likely it is that Cheney has ignored the Military and decided to go for a hail mary last gasp attack hoping that the carnage unleashed will somehow benefit him and his GOP buddies.
Even if Iran actually had a fully operational Nuclear Weapon programme (which the Security Services say they don't) 5 years is the very soonest that could be turned into any kind of viable device. And several more years to make it small enough to be deliverable.
The North Korean approach worked. Which is why there are American Diplomats talking to Iran BUT with a weak Bush Cheney might make an end run around those who are trying to manage two wars and force the issue over the precipice. -
i am actually quite full. but i commend this chat for being mostly 'fuck you' free. it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable. democracy requires internal struggle but an acknowledgment that we share more than our differences. I have been attacked for being british by delpa25 (i am australian) docpazzu (or whatever) has been very offensive to me. I am at the point where i don't want to contribute to this MOVIE website because of the vitriol. Here i have **mostly** seen disagreement without really bad offence. keep it up and i'll stay. I know you don't care if i stay or not, but i would like too. i would like to respect those i disagree with. democracy requires it.
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repok2 or whatever has hasselled me. i have never been rude. if you want a smack i swear to god i will tell you how to find me. i really respect those here who get angry (and lets face it, this is a topic we feel deeply about) but are not rude. fair discourse helps us all
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when i think about it, docpazzu was hasslling me for arguing with you Spazatronic 2000. you had certain economic positions i disagreed with and he hasselled me for it. you i don't have a problem with cause you seem civil
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Nuff said.
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how universal heathcare will effect there jobs (income); I just got my hospital bill for a blood test - 735 dollars. they even itemized the fuckin bandaid for 16.25. 16.25 how the fuck did they come up with that number, where i live that is 3 hours of minimum wage. Speakng of minimum wage, what the fuck happend to the increase we all heard about, people i work with are still getting 5.50 an hour. So how will universal heath care effect your salary, im thinking someone is gonna get paid less. Hospitals are a fuckin joke here, if you can turn a box of 100 bandaids into 1,625 dollars then something is very wrong.
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because there are a shit load of churches that take their followers to vote each election and their priest tells them that (and im serious about this) if they vote for a candidate who is pro abortion (democrat) they will go to hell. The first time i heard that i said bullshit. But once i confirmed it by asking local church goers i was stunned. I wonder what percentage of the electoral college votes are influenced by that factor.
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Every democracy gets exactly the kind of government it deserves. The US deserves Bush and pretending he just somehow happened to be in power like a natural disaster is just a coward's way of avoiding the sad fact that almost half the country voted this guy in ... twice!
So don't bitch but educate yourselves (even though of course it's all way too late).
While historians call the 20th century the American century, it will also be known as the empire that started to believe its own propaganda and thus had a rude awakening. -
The "somehow" you speak of regarding misinformation about Iran's nuclear capabilities is the Israel lobby in effect.
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Jul 30, 2008 10:09:44 AM CDT
MORBID IS INCENSED BY JOHN KERRY'S SUPPOSED REFUSAL
by bringingsexyback
to release his military records but has no problem with the secrecy with which Bush has conducted the war and surveillance on the American people. Morbid has a warped sense of priority.
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which means we shouldn't put much stock in anything he says. But that was kind of obvious anyway ...
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Would have been more accurate, and it might have saved us from the actual "Disaster Movie" that's coming later this summer.
Shit. -
Jul 30, 2008 10:22:43 AM CDT
BUSH YESTERDAY BLAMED THE RECORD DEFICIT ON STIMULUS PACKAGE
by bringingsexyback
but not on the $10 Billion/month war. Bush not only hates black people, it looks like he hates white people too.
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"One of those was so embarrassed by this obvious favoritism that it reported how G.W. Bush had gotten better grades than Kerry in college."It's amazing what slipping a few Franklins to a college prof will get you, eh?Why the continued bashing of Kerry? He was a turkey. With the face of a horse. Zero charisma. Just like all those other wankers the Democrats have paraded out over the years. Mondale and Dukakis? Really?All Kerry will be remembered for is his inability to defeat the world's first talking chimp. If there's anything beneath a footnote, Kerry will be it.
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Kerry may have been a joke, but Teresa Heinz=Kerry - damn! That is one seriously smokin woman. Rich, beautiful, smart. Doesn't take any shit. Damn, I wanted four years of her telling the press to go hump themselves and Kerry's people trying to muzzle her!
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... and stubborn, apparently. His records were released on the internet, on his website. They are still archived, and you can still look at them. I just looked at them yesterday. You might wonder why I don't just post the link. I guess I'm just being stubborn too. However if you can bring yourself to navigate to the Wiki on the subject, the link is there, among others to contemporary news articles on the subject.Funny how this discussion went from the central issue of how credible the SBVFT were - an issue Morbid brought up - to this. Funnier still that the SBVFT question is at least SOMEWHAT open to interpretation, while the military record one is so cut and dry.
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She had spunk and that would've been great to watch. Especially since what we have now is a librarian who only parrots talking points.You know who's the most smokin' of all though? Kucinich's wife. Good gawd that red hair.
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How in heavens name did Kucinich pull that? I mean, land a goshen! She aint smokin, she is torrid!
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Jul 30, 2008 11:56:04 AM CDT
HOD - we could turn this TB into hottest political wives
by toadkillerdog
But it might be a short list. Then again Jerri Ryan was married to some freaky dude in Illinois
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Will take some research, TKD. Sarkozy ain't doing too bad either.
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And his actress wife
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Barbara Bush, of course.
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Thanks for the information about John Kerry's military records. Interesting read. Only the truly ignorant (like Morbid) would continue to be voluntarily deluded by SBVFT's propaganda.
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I did not mean in my post to seem like I approve of how policy has been implemented in the Middle East. I just believe in the overall idea of what we want to achieve there. It is a very violent and unstable region for any number of reasons and sometimes the extremists take their fight to other countries. I believe that makes the region a danger to everyone. That is why I support the idea of trying to intervene there and bringing some kind of stability. Have we been successful? Not by a longshot, but I support the ideals that have led us to try and intervene. I don't like how we've gone about it. We always back the wrong guy it seems.
I also think those past mistakes are coming back to bite us now and now we have to take more drastic measures if we are going to stay the course and try to make that region safe and tolerant. I know a lot of people want us to just get out of a place where we are not wanted and I flirted with the idea as well. However, I think we may have got ourselves into a situation that we won't be able to just walk away from. That's why I support our Middle East ideas and why I, to some extent, I support the Iraq War. -
Have you seen a documentary called "Endgame: Blueprint for Global Enslavement"? Check it out, you'd find it very interesting.
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