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Reader reaction: CRUSADE - "The War Zone" [series premiere] ((please read intro before posting))
SPOILER ALERT !!
Glen here...
Crusade is now upon us. 'Tis a big night to many, a bittersweet night to most.
I encourage every person reading these words to WATCH THE SHOW. Do not turn away
from it simply because I ran a HREF="http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=3693">less-than-favorable review a
few weeks back. Do not turn away from it simply because it might not capture your imagination the
way Babylon 5 (its predecessor) did. Do not turn away from it simply because of the
negative press or controversy the show has generated.
Watch the show.
Watch all of its episodes.
Think about them.
Then decide their quality for yourself. I can not say these sentiments strongly enough.
I am guessing some of you will be disappointed in Crusade. Some of you will hold onto
your love for the Babylonian universe, and be unable to acknowledge the series' potential
shortcomings no matter what. Some of you will just be happy to have 13 episodes of
Crusade instead of none at all. Some of you will profess that even mediocre Straczynski is
better than most other "good" programming. The range of emotions surrounding the show will be
multitudinous, passionate, and fascinating.
Crusade Talkbacks
Because Crusade's circumstance is unusual in the history of both television and Coaxial
(I've never covered a series which was effectively canceled before it hit the airwaves), I will be
opening "reader reaction" for each episode of the series during the duration of its initial 13 episode
run. This means every Wednesday evening for the next 13 weeks...should you so choose...you can
come to Coaxial to discuss that evening's Crusade episode.
REMEMBER - LET'S RESPECT EACH OTHER'S OPINIONS !!!
As uncomfortable as it may be, people may not always agree with what we have to say
about Babylon 5 and Crusade. Disagree with someone all you want in these
forthcoming Talkbacks, but if you start name calling, threatening, demeaning, or otherwise
running-down someone simply because they do not say what you wish they'd say (which has
been happening to a lot of people voicing dissenting opinions abut this show lately), you will be
summarily banned and deleted from these Talkbacks. CIVIL DISCOURSE ONLY - and I will be
watching!
Saving Crusade
In the near future, you may also find yourself asking "How do I send letters to someone about
saving this show!?!?!?!
You can find out more information about sending "Save Crusade" letters by HREF="http://www.astro.umd.edu/~fleming">CLICKING HERE, or by HREF="http://homes.acmecity.com/babylon5/lurker/2/crusade.htm">CLICKING HERE to
access the primary SAVE CRUSADE web sites.
In closing...
One question which seems to be coming up over and over again: since the recent downer HREF="http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=3693">reviews: does Coaxial still
care about Babylon 5 and Crusade?
Very much so.
I intend to continue reporting on the situation as much as possible, and
very much hope the madness we now face comes to some happier end than obilvion.
This doesn't mean I'm going to change my opinion...or be dishonest about my feelings re: a
show...simply to save said show from extinction. I wouldn't do that for any show. But I do
hope (and intend) to continue covering the franchise (sorry, JMS - don't know what else to call it
here) as long as its around to cover.
That being said: have fun, enjoy the show, and pray for better Babylonian Days.
Now go watch the thing, and scroll down to tell us what you think...
Glen
If you send a message to the above address & bounces back to you, HREF="mailto:glenoliver@hotmail.com">send mail to a back-up address!
Or call:
(512) 347-1992
Mail can be sent to:
Glen Oliver
P.O. BOX 160812
Austin, TX 78716-0812
USA
P.O. BOX 160812
Austin, TX 78716-0812
USA
Austin, TX 78716-0812
USA
USA
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The first 13 Babylon 5s were on the whole pretty godawful, but that series went on to greatness in Season Two and Season Three, and to a lesser extent in Season Four. (Let's not get into Season Five...) Since JMS has already made B5, I would definitly expect that these first 13 Crusades will be better than the first 13 B5s, but not by much. JMS isn't exactly a perfect writer, it seems like he didn't know what the hell he was doing at first, and this is an all new series so again he doesn't know what he is doing. so if "Warzone" beats "The Gathering", I will be happy. If "The Long Road" beats "Infection", I will be happy. Don't put the show up on a pedestal like everybody did with the Star Wars Trilogy and Classic Trek. Treat it like a show, dammit!
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Until Sighns and Portents, there was not a single Great episode, and until Chrysalis there was not another. Atleast half of year 2 was weak as well. There were some fantastic episodes in year 2 such as The comming of shadows, and The Long Twilight struggle. But many of those episodes were weak too. Many people say that the first four seasons of B5 were great and the last one suckedbut i could hardly disagree more. Year 5 was much better than year 1 and atleast as good as year 2. The fall of Centuri Prime arc was Fantastic as was the last episode.
I really wish JMS was able to finish his crusade arc. If we were to judge the original B5 on just the first 13 episodes, we would remeber it as a poor Deep Space 9 wannabe. -
An important thing to note about War Zone, the new first Crusade ep, is that it was written at the behest of TNT, and it was written the way TNT wanted it: Action, battles, etc.
I think the 8th episode, "Racing the Night" is perhaps more in line with what JMS has in mind for Crusade: Action yes, but also interesting character moments, strong plots, and dramatic twists and questions. Mysterious questions. So, I don't know how War Zone is, I've not seen it. But, I can say Racing the Night is quite good.
But, my favorite ep so far is episode 3, The Well of Forever. There's an ep about ideas, and emotions. So watch for ep 3, on June 23.
Cord Hawk -
OK, We're only 10 minutes in, but...the music STINKS.
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I'm watching the premiere show of Crusade and what the fuck is this?! No closed captioning!!! I'm pissed off! Why TNT is not captioning the show?!
Despite its fantastic computer animations, the show is quite lame (the use of 20th century footages for events taking place in 23rd century? C'mon!). Once the 13th episode is done on TNT, I hope JMS and crew would re-do the entire 13 episodes only on the Sci-Fi Channel next year! If George Lucas could re-do the original SW trilogy, so can JMS.
And for God's sake, show some deaf fans some freaking respect by captioning the show! Damn TNT to hell. -
Captain Mike Brady??? Shitty 20th Century stock footage for 23rd cetury riots? I actually liked Daniel Day Kim as the dour 2nd in command, but Capn' Mike just tries too hard. His and Tim Thomerson's little pissing match about crew selection was just painful to watch. And the Drakh -- nice dimestore masks. Also love the cheezy battle montage (its getting old, JMS). No wonder JMS seemed almost relieved when he walked away from this dog. Woof! Thank god TNT put it out of its misery.
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Have to say I liked what I saw in Crusade tonight but my only real gripe is that the episode felt rushed and the battle scene sound effects should have been there instead of music. But I like how the show looks, alot nicer and I still think it stays away from what I hate about Star Trek. Hopefully with more episodes, the show will pick up speed. Hopefully this show will get another chance. I have yet to see a show start out its first season kicking ass and Crusade doesnt have the luxury of many episodes or another season. Fate Manages.
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First thing that pissed the crap out of me -- NO CAPTIONS !!!! what the hell! Anyway Crusade is not B5. It looks promising. Definitely has the morality deep thinking aspect still embedded in it. Good Choice. Characters impressed me, everyone except the guy on Mars who was the guy from Dollman and Trancers. Chen is getting better with the music, but not by much. I dislike the fighting sequences and the music there, same as Call to Arms. And the Drahk looks corny sometimes, but the commander is the normal manacing type we are used to. All in all it wasn't bad. Needs some improvement but then again B5 stunk too for the first couple of seasons. "Infection" ring a bell? Anyway I look forward to the next episode and say F^CK TNT!!!!!!
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I know now why JMS originally wanted to start "Crusade" off in mid-mission. The simple fact is that these "coming together" stories -- like "War Zone" -- always follow the same pattern. And in an hour-long episode, there isn't enough time to experiment given all the "musts" coming-together stories entail. Damn TNT for its insistence on "War Zone" as the first episode. So, what we get for "Crusade" is a lackluster premier that is not helped by Evan Chen's often atonal score (at least it's better than the one for "A Call to Arms") and special effects that simply aren't up to the standard B5 set. (Although the new jump-gate effect is nice.) Oh, and one last thing: has Tim Tommerson ever been more wooden?
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I watched and liked what I saw. I was a little dissappointed by the "costuming??" of the Drakh but overall, for a first episode it wasn't too bad. It would be nice if it were possible for the series to really develop. I think it has a lot of potential.
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I was worried about Crusade after the poor reviews, but I am glad they were wrong! That was a great beginning! I only have two complaints--1) I wish it would have been a two hour premiere! The hour went by so fast, it left me wanting more! 2) The music. I am partial to techno music, but the soundtrack is just lame. I hope it improves. I can't wait to see the next 12 episodes, and I hope TNT reconsiders its position.
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Good things: Story not bad, Gary Cole very good, Tim Thomerson (for kitsch value), Galen, Eilerson, space fx/// Not so good things: Terrestrial fx (if this is the best cgi can do, then give me matte paintings any time), music (i'll give it a chance -- it least it doesn't completely telegraph what emotion is trying to be evoked from you -- but it still is a bit strange), the complete absence of references to anything in Call to Arms (for example, why wouldn't Sheridan have already vouched for Dureena, especially since Excalibur is an Interstellar Alliance and not Earth Alliance ship -- you don't need Boxleitner for a recommendation, just a mention)/// All in all, a mixed bag, but as was already noted, so was B5 in the beginning, especially "The Gathering". Oh well, I'm off to write my "please don't cancel" letter to TNT, and my "please pick this up" letter to SciFi Channel and the WB. Cheerio, mates.
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I just keep telling myself that it was only the first episode, it can get better... It may not have the chance to get better with only 13 episodes, but I keep telling myself it *could*.
The music wasn't as annoying as in "A Call to Arms", but I still won't be buying any "Crusade" soundtracks. ( I have B5 ones...)
The Drakh looked like they were wearing halloween masks. The "New Crew" wandering around a dark ship with Galen zapping they guys in halloween masks as they sneak up behind.... I just wasn't very intrested. *sigh*
It can get better, it can get better......
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Well I have to say that this EP wasn't as doomsday horiable like the reviews says. They actually had action in the first ep unlike most series which is a bunch of talk for the first 45 minutes. My friend who could never get into B5 said he liked it and he's a type that doesn't get into sci-fi much. The intro's music was pretty bad I don't think I would be buying the soundtrack anytime soon. But it did keep me more intrested for a new series than midnight on the firing line did. But who cares about whats anyone's opions are we have little say over what gets on TV anyway.
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Oh yeah I also wanted to say that in some parts it sounds like the music just consists of someone banging pots and pans.
I think thats all. -
I enjoyed it much more than the pilot of any other sci-fi series I've ever seen, and I got to whoop a few times during it. Good characterisation of all the main actors - I didn't feel like any of them were weakly developed except for the doctor perhaps. I don't want to harp on Chens music but I did feel the show needed a stronger theme. However the "Who are you etc." theme is still streets away of any crap Star Trek themes around these days. Some of the special FX weren't so cool but some of them were. I will freely admit the drahk looked kinda Naff but hey - at least they weren't 'humans-with-funny-noses'!!! Compared to B5 ... well thats unfair at the moment. I'll reserve judgement. Suffice it to say that the actors are trying their best and some of them are performing pretty well.
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I disliked the Starblazers rippoff concept from the getgo (great concept, but plagerized), and assumed the worst when I read the negative review on this site a couple weeks back... but after seeing it I thought it rocked. Crusade is exciting to watch and bustling with potential. Yes, there were some cheezy effects and costumes (I suppose they were running out of money or time during the production) but I thought this first ep was pretty decent overall and I found myself wanting to watch much more of this show when those final credits rolled.
Heres to Crusade. The best sci-fi show since B5.
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I agree that many if not most TV series aren't as good as they're gonna be right out of the gate (Homicide comes to mind, but I can think of few others). But how long a grace period should a show be given? An entire season? Maybe -- Babylon 5 and Star Trek: TNG both markedly improved in their second seasons -- and clearly steps were deliberately taken to improve things. But just because a show starts out mediocre, doesn't mean it'll get good later on. The trouble with the TNT/Crusade deal is that they didn't give audiences a chance to accept or reject Crusade, which is what boggles my mind. But watching War Zone, like most of B5 Season 5, makes me wonder if JMS isn't burned out -- I remember more than once he wrote about how exhausted B5 left him, how he'd never take on a project as big as it again -- and while I was eager to hear about Crusade, I couldn't help but wonder if JMS was really up for it, given what he'd said. What I liked most about War Zone is the use of the "questions," especially the "Who Do You Serve? And who do you trust?" which I suspect lays the groundwork for the arc he had in mind. They remind me a little of B5's second and third season, when Sheridan was gathering the "conspiracy of light" against the Shadows & Earth's government. And Gideon's relationship with Galen -- that Galen "found him in space" -- has me suspicious; it reminds me of the Sinclair/Minbari connection. Perhaps Gideon is himself a technomage, or they've done something to him he doesn't know anything about. I thought the lack of reference to Sheridan, who had just been in command of the Excalibur a matter of days ago, was quite glaring. Lastly, kudos to Glen for his review of the Crusade episodes -- one of the most balanced things I've seen in AICN.
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Remember, every beginning sci fi series has a so-so beginning. It needs time to mature [which TNT didn't feel like giving this series]. I certainly hope that the SCI FI CHANNEL does pick this series up because I for one would love to see where this story is going, especially past its first years worth of stories. Let's keep our fingers crossed people. It DOES have potential [Unlike a certain Voyager sereis who has been given several years to prove itself and has failed to do so.
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All and all I liked "War Zone." The characters look like they have a lot of possibility to be interesting. I like how Gideon is a little less of a straight arrow than Sinclair and Sheridan were. The show has premise.
There were a couple of downsides, though. Where'd the Drakh masks come from, the dime store? And I'm not in love with Chen's style. Although the visual parts of the opening were nice, the music itself was the weakest out of all of the B5 related openings.
Well, I'm looking foward to next week. -
Am I the only one to notice that all the Crusade promos refer to this crew as a group of Rangers. Not a single Mention of the Anla'Shok here, as they all seemed to fall under earth juristiction. As for the music, I find Nintendo music more moving, they should rehire Christopher Franke. As for the show itself, I find it somewhat depressing in its atmosphere, low lighting, bleak drab sets, even more depressing than Narn or Mars. I also agree on the cheezy looking Drakh, but perhaps they were a purely warrior sect of the Drakh similar to the warrior caste of the Minbari, except the Minbari warriors look more threatening than the rest of the group. BTW I love the lead Drakh look, kinda looks like the Jem Hadar from DS9. Damn TNT for beign such jerks about it, they say that it needs more violence and sleazy innuendos to make it "quality TV", just like "professional" wrestling right? Hope the series gets better. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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One of JMS' consistent faults on B5 (and one which seemed to actually get *worse*) was dialogue. Nearly everyone in "War Zone" seemed to be using the same Garibaldiesque style of speaking, and it was damn annoying. Other minuses -- the CGI are really hard to watch, the fight sequence was *horrible*, and David Allen Brooks is distressingly wooden as Max Eilerson. (Why not try *two* inflections instead of one, David?)
But the pluses generally outweighed them. I found Evan Chen's music for this episode a great improvement over his "Call to Arms" work, with some potent glimmers of real emotion in the (excellent) opening credit sequence. And I was pleasantly surprised by how much I liked Marjean Holden and Gary Cole, both of whom have real potential. The production values are clearly very high, so everything looks nifty. Bottom line: I think we'll see peaks and valleys in these episodes, ultimately averaging out a little lower than B5 in quality, but still well worth watching. -
Ok, I'll admit it: when Gideon first appeared, all I saw was Sheriff Buck (that's "Buck"...with a "B"). And this captain certainly has some of Buck's qualities.
I liked this first episode. There were some technical issues (bad dubbing job with one of the extras early in the ep.). I liked the CGI. I thought did an admirable job with virtual sets in most cases.
As for Evan Chen, well, I didn't like his music in "A Call to Arms", but I have to say he's much improved since then. His timing seems to be better, and his score seems to have the right tone for the scenes this time. I think he'll do well.
I think it's a good start. I'm supporting this show, because I think it has potential (I ordered my free Vanilla Boost drink already :)
The episode is not without its little quirks, but I think it's a solid start. The characters are interesting and have a lot of potential. Good first ep.
Sam -
Well, I thought it wasn't bad. I thought it was a bit rushed, and there was too much crew setup (wish JMS had gotten his way on that one). Didn't think the FX were that terrible, and I don't really see the Drakh as looking that much cheesier than they did on B5. I do think they should have shown those things were helmets though. Also - the opening theme music sucked. I couldn't even here a tune per say in there. I definitely won't be humming that - I don't think I could if I wanted too. I think that ruins the lead-in personally. The best thing about B5 lead-ins was always the music AND the images. I think if the show is given time it could be good. I like Gary Cole and his 2nd - already know I think Dureena and Galen are pretty good from Call to Arms. One last thing (I'm rambling) - was it me or was the editing totally off? When Eilerson reacts to the food processor joke it was like 2 seconds too late...
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I agree, those masks most of the drakh were wearing looked like pieces of dimestore crap, but it was so much worse when they tried to do them in CG. God, that was afwul watching those fake figures shooting at the shuttle, then getting blown up later. I mean, couldn't they have gotten actors to play in those parts? The masks were still better than the crappy fx generated drakh, and thats still pretty shitty.
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I loved this ep, and hope it bodes well for future eps. I liked all of the characterizations, although Marjean Holden needs to work on being more forceful in her action or she's gonna get shoved back with such powerhouses as Galen, Dureena, and Eilerson. Dr. Chambers wasn't that bad with her PPG though 8) My only major complaint was the music interlude over the battle. I would have rather heard Gideon say 'Fire' than see him mouth it. Minor complaint: wtf was the opening theme? I kept expecting a swell in the music that never came. They might as well have cut out the music, although it wasn't as bad as in ACTA. Max Eilerson looks to be a very interesting character.
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I disliked the Starblazers rippoff concept from the getgo (great concept, but plagerized), and assumed the worst when I read the negative review on this site a couple weeks back... but after seeing it I thought it rocked. Crusade is exciting to watch and bustling with potential. Yes, there were some cheezy effects and costumes (I suppose they were running out of money or time during the production) but I thought this first ep was pretty decent overall and I found myself wanting to watch much more of this show when those final credits rolled.
Heres to Crusade. The best sci-fi show since B5.
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While I admit this episode was just okay, and had some poor production, the series has some promise of being great. First, the problems:
The music was awful, but I complained about this on the B5 usenets back when A Call To Arms Premiered back in January. Evan Chen scoring lacks emotion and depth.
The Drakh looked too fake. Its to bad they don't have the budget to add the phasing effect seen in the first B5 episode that introduced the Drakh.
Some special effects look as great as some in that major motion picture being shown in theaters today, but then some effects looked too fake just like some in that major motion picture being shown in theaters today.
I think JMS revealed too much. He let loose the theme questions (Who do you trust?) in the very first episode unlike B5 where the viewer didn't find out about the theme of the series until the middle of the arc. Also, the Drakh should not have been exposed so much either. We didn't find out details of the Shadows until the middle.
The good parts:
All the characters seem likeable, and Gary Cole acts like a CAPTAIN unlike another popular sci-fi series. I thought all the actors did a good job.
Some of the effects are top-notch.
The premise of the show can lead to interesting stories.
Borromline: This episode seems forced. Of course TNT were the ones who pushed this show on JMS and Babylonian productions. I think they tried to do their best, but I think they were not prepared to pull this off the way they wanted. Again, if the creators had their way, this episode would have never seen the light. -
I like the music - edgy, sharper.
that hour went FAST! I agree that
the Dureena entrance didn't make
sense. But I'd watch it again,
and again and again. I might
be dating myself, but take a look
at the first few eps of M*A*S*H and look how it turned out.
Gideon reminds me of Sinclair.
He needs(ed) to be a little less
stiff. It's still better than
a lot of crap out there WWF,
a lot of the sitcoms. But let's
face it, no one wants to be
challenged and made to think nowadays. At least one question has been answered, we know who TNT serves. -
Well, I liked it. I really liked it!
I was all prepared for the inevitable disappointment, after all CRUSADE does have IMPOSSIBLY big shoes to fill. (Not to mention that barring some kind of miracle, we only get 12 more episodes...) But I liked it a lot more than I thought I would.
Lot's of stuff in no particular order:
- Too early to say too much about the characters, but I still like both Dureena & Galen. In fact, I liked Galen even more in this episode than in the B5 "A Call To Arms" movie. I felt for Sarah Chambers (the doctor) right away. I really liked the scene where she recorded the message for her sister. In "A Call To Arms" John said that some people would be affected by the plague before others, so I can't help but worry for her sister & baby niece. Captain Gideon seems interesting, there is an undercurrent of anger, fear, or perhaps distrust with him, we'll see. Max (the pain in the ass) was interesting, I wonder what will motivate him, my guess is that he goes along hoping to make money through discoveries he may encounter. So what will his first loyalty be to, the Excalibur or himself? Mathison (the first officer) didn't do much for me, but maybe he'll grow on me. Sure am looking forward to seeing Lochley, she WAS on the credits after all...
- We know Mathison is a telepath. They spoke about "hostilities" and "new rules for telepaths" so I think we can safely assume the telepath war happened & that at least some teeps are still around on Earth and that they are still bound by rules. Did you catch the "Psi" symbol on Mathison's sleeve? So at least in the military, we know telepaths are still "marked." And we know that there are those in the government that still distrust them. So, did Lyta get her homeworld? Do telepaths still have to register? Can they CHOOSE whether or not to stay on Earth? What about those that don't want to follow the rules? Are they "rogues?" What happened when Bester, Michael & Lyta all came face to face again?
- JMS says that one theme of CRUSADE is "Who Do You Serve and Who Do You Trust?" (We sure heard THAT a few times in this episode, huh?) Interesting questions, particularly when the Drakh asked, if Earth is destroyed by the plague, does that alter the answers? How much do your circumstances have to change before your beliefs and priorities change as well? Interesting stuff that...
-John -
Gee, they were some pretty crappy Gem-Ha-Dar on tonight's episode. They were missing the tubes of sucking white liquid. I thought the actors did a very good job, the sets looked nice and most of the CGI was pretty good. They still can make a transport or Mars scene that doesn't look like a cartoon. The music still stunk. It sounds like kids banging on tin cans and garbage cans.
Even with the negatives, it was pretty darn good.
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I must say, that "battle" sequence was the toughest thing I've had to sit through since I first saw Jim Carrey talking out of his ass. The music was horrible! I don't want to get all artsy-fartsy on you, but it lacked ANY emotional content. Wrong music for the wrong images. Still, I'll give it a chance.
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I read some of the introuduction and I do understand what you are saying Glen. To you people that posted already I couldn't read all what you posted about it.
Okay, I just got off TNT message board and posted a reveiw of what I though it if. It took me a good 45 minutes to do so. Because I have to do alot of thinking. About it.
Now on to the review.
The people expect for the doctor were good. The plot seem almost seem almost typical. A crash ship of the emeny, our people try to get, the emeny comes to take it also, and at the end a fight for the ship that leads to people diying. This plot has been used and used over and over again. Come on JMS you have show us that you can do better.
No not all of the first 13 eps of Babylon suck. In there were on fo my fatioves eps. Parliment of Dreams. You can't have a good epsoines if you don't know alot about the people. Did you notice that all of the good Babylon 5's were after we knew what the people were like.
The effects were not good but were not bad. I didn't like the returning of the old jump gate effect. I mean Call to Arms rose the bar for that effect. I didn't understand why did JMS show stock fotage from the 20 centuray. I though that Babylon 5 was better than that. That is something that I would expect from Red Dwarf, becauset that show is Bristish and they don't have the money to our shows have. American shows can aired non-stock fotage with shots of people with CGI shots.
One thing that I did like, was the return of the Lower Caste Drack with hand held weapons. Here a set of the lines that the Drack Captain said: "When your world is gone, who will you be? Who will you serve?" Great lines and perfromed and make you think.
What about the main theme? Ouch that was weak at best. I was expecting more music that was alittle better than that. The battle schemes I thought were okay, but they reminder me of the 10 minutes schemes that we saw in Call to Arms. I would of like a better edit one, when see the fighters in ship to ship fighting. That to me was stapple in Babylon 5 battles. Here is a question? How can *one* ship take on two cruisers with fighters that can number in about 3 dozen surrive and take them all out? That is not possibale and isn't realist. I think that some of it was falling down on the details that Babylon 5 was famous for.
I don't care if there are only 13 of them, I am still a Babylon 5 fan and will reminded faithfull to the show. Because like Andersion in Call to Arms, I had a change to be an oringal fan of the show and I didn't. Now I have a second change to do that, I won't miss it.
-Minarvia -
I was upset with a number of things about Crusade
1. The Music: I am one of the few who liked the Music in A Call To ARMs, but Chen couldn't get those emotional juices flowing with the techno. We do need that Franke guy to comeback. He new how to make the music bring out the emotion and intensity of a character or situation. The intro music sucked! It didn't convey any sense of urgency for our Crusaders!
2. No Continuity: The last I heard Sheridan was in charge of Excaliber, He should have been the one assigning Gideon to the ship, not some no name Mars politician. Sheridan could have conveyed urgency as well as dealt with his uncomfortable feelings about telepaths, especially with his past dealings with Bester. How is it that Dureena, one of the Heros in A Call to Arms has to fight to get on the ship? That made know sense whatsoever. The Crusade premiere acted as if Dureena and Galen had no previous involment with Earth and its situation.
3. Special Effects: What happened to the Babylon 5 special effects that set it apart from other Sci-Fi shows? They looked horrible. Especially the battle sequences. I also would prefer to hear the sound of battle with music in the background, rather than hear just music and watch the characters lips move. What were these guys thinking!
All in all, I have patience and I am sure Crusade will improve, but thats not the type of episode that will attract millions of people. Remember! The goal is to get people to watch so Crusade can continue! I will be interested in the nielsons when they come out! -
Personally, yes..the first episode of Crusade was not the greatest, but when compared to the first eps of other prominent shows, it rocked! Remember Encounter at Farpoint(Yes, I will compare to ST:TNG)? Or worse, the DS9 first ep? They both really kinda sucked, yet the shows went on to become great hits. I KNOW Crusade can do it! And contrary to the recent review,I think Giddeon did a really cool job. Also, at first I thought the first officer guy looked to much like the lame Harry Kim on voyager (I like voyager in that it got me turned off of ST and found B5!!), but I think he's gonna turn out really cool. I hope they can work a good personality in like they did with Ivanova. Well, thats my say...I really hope the Sci-Fi channel or FX can pick up the pieces next season...please!!!
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Well I just got done watching "Crusade" and
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I just saw War Zone and thought it was a fine start to a promising, but likely, short lived series. It seems a few people are overly critical of Crusade. Reading previous post I see that rather than trying to enjoy Crusade, the show is placed under a microscope and examined. The music, the acting, the credits, the costumes, the choice of actors, editing, cgi, sets and every other aspect of the show has been dissected. Did anyone actually try to just sit back and enjoy Crusade? Most TV series today take a season to find their identity. B5, Star Trek NG and others series had weak, at best, first seasons. I have seen 2 other episodes at a convention and enjoyed them both. Again, I didn't try to analyze every little detail. I hope Crusade gets a chance to live beyond the 13 episodes so that it may grow, as B5 did, into something greater.
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I surprised that in these talk backs, no one is mentioning the dialogue of Captain Gideon when he is being ordered around by his higherups in the chain of command....like when he started going off on how he was in charge, how "I'm gonna run this ship without anybody looking over my head" I thought this was JMS himself speaking, referring to his battles with TNT and other dunces who don't know what good science fiction is. Sure, you can pick apart the music and the CGI and try to win a No-Prize, but why all the nitpicking? Bottom line is that the storytelling and character development is there. Gideon doesn't take any guff and acts like a captain should. But you can tell that there is hidden angst within him that he is always dealing with. Plus he's got this mysterious bond with Galen, which should prove to be interesting in the future. I'm looking forward to this!!
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I hate to say it but it looks like jms just pulled a highlander 2. I think I could have taken the
overacting, weak plot, and general mess of a script ... but
the music was just a bit too much
even for this die-hard B5 fan. If it doesn't get any better, 13 episodes will be more than enough.
Am I the only one who thinks the technomages are a bad idea? The best thing about b5 is that the physics are right, we don't need magic.
Anyone up for taking John Williams hostage?
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I see many complaints about the costuming of the "soldier-Drakh" in "War Zone", but you could just as well be *applauding* the show for displaying such a fine level of *consistency*. Continuity is a quality that fans have often demanded, and rarely gotten, from science fiction media makers; JMS has repeatedly distinguished himself in that regard, as he does again here. This particular species of Drakh was seen once before, in the 4th season B5 episode "Lines of Communication." The only difference was that then, the FX folks tried to fancy it up by adding a "phase" effect, but the result was less than successful, and Joe said he was disappointed with it, so they understandably dropped it. So, okay, these "soldier-Drakh" apparently don't have mouths. Perhaps that's because they are drones and don't NEED to speak, and are fed by some other more-efficient means. Who knows?
Anyway, I have to thank AICN again for performing a most valuable service. This is now the second time that I've seen something after reading negative reviews of it here, and enjoyed it, probably more than I would have otherwise, thanks to my lowered expectations. As with Phantom Menace, I was pleasantly surprised by "War Zone". I found Gary Cole as the captain very refreshing -- frankly, I was getting sick of Boxleitner's Sherridan. His second also was much stronger than I expected, and with an intriguing backstory.
Evan Chen's music was my biggest complaint about A Call To Arms -- NOT because I disliked the music itself, but because it seemed ill-fitted to the subject matter. However, it is starting to grow on me. It is matching up better to the pacing of the show, which, by the way, is quite good, definitely better than most of B5 year 5. Except for the mute battle montage sequence -- I think we've had enough of those. :-)
I liked the effects -- they seemed subtly improved, just enough to make the show feel new and fresh. And I have no problem with the use of actual news footage... it's a lot more dramatic than anything they'd be able to fake up without a mammoth budget.
Bottom line, I enjoyed it and look forward to more. I would advise others to do as I do, and not have huge expectations of this thing. Expect no more than a reasonably entertaining and intelligent TV show, and that's probably what you'll get. But it's just a suggestion. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. -
I just watched my tape of "War Zone." Not bad. Drags a little bit, but the end with Gideon meeting Galen saved it. Looks like it has potential... if it survives. My wife and I were discussing "Crusade" this evening, and she said she wasn't sure if she wanted to watch it. She'd gotten pretty heavily invested in "B5" -- in the show, the characters, etc. When it ended, there was a definite sense of closure (regardless of how many loose ends JMS left us with)... despite the fact that this takes place in the "B5 Universe" -- this isn't B5. Frankly, I don't want it to be, either. I liked "War Zone" okay... I'm hesitant to say that I expected more, because frankly, we're lucky we even get to see it. I can't see myself getting attached to this like I did with B5 -- so my expectations are not that high. As such, I doubt I'll be terribly disappointed with it if it does indeed such. Let's hope it pleasantly surprises us. And so it begins... (I almost wished Galen hadn't said that... but it was appropriate.)
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I look back on these comments and I see far to many people making excuses for the mediocrity of this episode.
I see people blaming TNT. Saying all sci-fi series start slow.
Excuses, excuses.
When last I looked, JMS was supposed to be an experienced writer who can do anything...he wrote a damn book on scriptwriting to tell people how to do it.
Regardless of what he was told to do, he should have been able to produce a "knock-your-socks-off" premiere episode.
He didn't. Most of the flaws I saw in this episode were in the writing. We can harp on the alien makeup and the CGI and other stuff. But, it was the writing that fell short in my book.
A person of JMS's experience should be able to do better. Particularly when so much is on the line. -
Who would have thought I would like a guy working for IPX?
He is devious, manipulative, brilliant, and self-serving. He is not Wesley Crusher/Scotty/Chief O'Brian. He makes mistakes, like the food processor.
Some of these characters come across like real people.
I care about them already. Isn't thats what its about?
(Yeah and really cool FX) -
I honestly am happy to see this show. I sat back and tried to enjoy it, but there really were parts when I could *not* enjoy it. An above writer was right in saying JMS should have knocked our socks off. This reminds me vaguely of "Phoenix Rising," when, for several days after finishing watching it, I fought the urge to go to my computer, rewrite the ending sequence with Byron's death, and email it to JMS.
Maybe TNT put Crusade on before A Call to Arms because they knew there was a lack of continuity. A Call to Arms ended with Excalibur at B5, and Dureena meeting Galen in the (empty) docking area. If we had just seen the end of the movie, everyone would have caught that snafu.
I like the new commentary, but I think it *is* too obvious. I would prefer it if my intelligence were slightly higher rated by JMS and TNT (is this like Lee Harvey Oswald and John Wilkes Booth, three names/letter each?). It would be like starting off Season one of B5 with big words saying, "Learn who you are. Know what you want. Keep in mind that no one is exactly what he appears. And remember, faith manages."
By the way, "And so it begins" has been said by at least two other characters (Delenn and Kosh); it is frustrating when a writer gives one voice to many many different characters.
Chen's music . . . agh. No. Too much has already been said. But look back to season 1 Babylon5, and listen to how dull it could be (to a jazzy beat, with Zima in the background: "Set me free . . . Let me be . . ." Sci fi dance music. Egh.). Up until And a Sky Full of Stars, I don't remember liking it much.
It is not fair to give Crusade the benefit of the doubt. JMS and Babylonian have experience doing Sci-fi, experience doing smart sci-fi, experience doing smart sci-fi on TNT, and experience doing smart sci-fi on TNT that moves you and pleases you. They don't deserve a second chance. They get 13 episodes to prove themselves. No more. Compared to other sci-fi TV, it's sub par. (Other sci-fi TV right now is just Voyager.) I honestly don't think I would watch this show aside from loyalty to its predecessor.
And to end, there had better not be a hole in Gideon's mind. Kinda like, "Hey, look Gene Rodenberry, we've got plots we used in the old show that would work just the same in the new show." No robots, no wesleys, and no cute little kids. -
I'm gonna write this before I read the other posts. I taped the show, just watched it. I want to thank Glen for his reviews, because they certainly lowered my expectations. Maybe that was for the best. When I watched Crusade tonight it did two things: It made me very happy. I loved the B5 elements (ISN, background sounds). There was a comfort Zone for B5 fans (though some mention of Sheridan's involvement in Call to Arms would have been welcome...). That's the first thing. The second was a sense that, man, this is what the Trek universe could do, if they had a clue...I love Trek, I loved Insurrection, but DS9 always dissappointed, even the Series Finale...Crusade felt like Trek should be, could be if brighter minds prevailed. The authenticity of the dialogue, a JMS hallmark, even transcended the wooden-ness of some cast members. This is truly so much better than 99% of what's on television...my only complaint: less montage fighting. I want to hear lasers firing, even though it's scientifically "wrong". I don't want to see characters mouthing the word "fire", I want to hear that, too. But I was very much pleased, Maybe I'm brainwashed into the JMS can do no wrong camp, but I was ready for a letdown after Glen's reviews, and I was pleasantly surprised.
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I agree with you that too much has been made of the fake-y Drakh, the CGI, and so on, and that more people need to comment on the actual writing...however, I disagree with you about the writing itself. B5's fifth season had some serious problems with character motivation and contrived plot development...which I, for the life of me, didn't see here. Maybe JMS is painting himself into a corner, but from where I sit the floor isn't half covered...there's plenty of room to maneuver here. Frankly I thought the plot held together pretty well, despite being burdened with lots of catch-up exposition (like the part where Gideon told Galen, of all people, what Technomages are).
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It was a pretty good start episode. AGAIN I Totally agree with everyone... Even Chen must go! His " music ", more like a performance of STOMP was totally annoying. While most music on most shows and movies add to the show... Chen's music is a distraction. It takes away from the show. It is weird and it puts you into a funky state. REHIRE Franke. His music added to atmosphere and the quality of a show.
FX : Actually I liked it. Yes it looked a little cheesy at times but I liked looking at the Drakh infantry firing at the shuttle or the Thunderbolt Star Furies straffing the Drakh soldiers.
Actors / Performance: I liked them too. Come on people, it's TNT tv , it's a sci-fi show. It's not the Academy awards.
Overall this would be a great addition to sci-fi tv. TNT give it a chance. Fire Chen, get a great opening theme instead of that techno-trash / trash can lid opening, and it could work.
Brian... about to send his letter to TNT and Sci-Fi channel. -
J. Michael Straczynski did put a *few* subtle things in. The lines early on about "This is a very political situation" reflect nicely what JMS must have been going through with TNT's head-in-assiness. Folks, he's doing the best he's doing, with TNT giving him a hard time. Faith manages.
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Like all sane people, I prefer Franke. 'Nuff said about that...BUT...I do recall *plenty* of episodes where something totally incidental to the story would be happening ("The dust dealer's headed for Brown 12!") and Franke would break out the full symphonic treatment, BOOM-BA-BA, BOOM-BA-BA, giving a totally inappropriate amount of weight to a minor incident. Or when Starfuries would be flying around, not doing anything in particular, and he'd whip out the B5 theme in a minor key like the non-action was supposed to carry some kind of gravitas. (Especially noticeable in "Signs and Portents".) Chen is exactly the opposite...he undercooks everything, giving potentially devastating scenes the impact of a featherfall. I'm left wishing that the two of them could combine efforts and cancel out each other's excesses...
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After woorying myself to death wether this show would suck or not, I must say I came away liking it. But it certainly had major problems. The biggest one IMO is the "must-have-contrived-character-introduction" feel of this episode, but I don't really blame TNT for that. It's just always difficult to get a decent 1 hour intro episode when all the characters have to be brought together AND have time for a plot. This episode was rushed to production as an afterthought, and one can certainly see that. --- But Once the first introduction" half of the episode was over, I really like the rest. All the major characters seem great, good acting overall by the majors. (We didnt see much of the doctor, but she seemed okay to me) --- Many complain about Max, but so far he is my favorite character, I dig his attitude. ;) --- The Music was an improvement from "A Call to Arms", but Evan Chen needs to score dramatic battles better. One the other hand, I REALLY like the Crusade theme, it growns on me every time I watch it. There is even a trace of a melody there! :) Hopefully the music will improve. --- Otherwise, Crusade definatly looks more expensive and better than B5 when it comes to sets (always B5's achilles heel), and the effects look great (although uneven). The new uniforms look good too, and I dig the new security force gear, very "Starship troopers"-like, which is good. --- So in conclusion, many rough spots, most due to the introductory nature of this episode, but overall I thought it was good. Crusade has potential, and deserves to survive. --- BTW, the Excalibur rocks! :)
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...you'll know that this show has a few hot and cold opinions, but the majority of them are lukewarm. My .02:
* Cole and Kim were good in the initial outing. It takes a certain grit to make it as a captain in the EA Forces, and that came across well.
* Chen's music? Totally indifferent. Didn't grab me, but didn't put me off, either.
* The CG Drakh looked bad, and the upclose views of the Drakh footsoldiers didn't do much to make things better.
All in all, I've seen worse sci-fi pilots ... I'm just wishing that enough Nielsen families tuned in to give JMS the chance he needs to get the REAL story arc in gear. Faith endures. -
good...no complains. Minor points...1)music is growing on me. 2) acting looked as if it were given out with no emotions other than that of what the script called for...wooden, you can almost feel them reading their dialog. 3)special effects, looked like Babylon 5, better than STAR TREK.4)characters, Gideon ROCKS, everyone else was *ok*....quit knocking the music...ok. mck out
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Ok so the first episode was ok,but that doesn't mean it won't go downhill from there.I liked Gary Cole and the technomage guy and the scene where they blast a gang of Drahks off a cliff but it got a little surreal towards the end with the silent space battle and the ground team capturing the leader. I mustv'e blinked because it made no sense to me. oh yeah, the Drahk soldiers were wearing helmets those weren't threir faces.
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Jun 10, 1999 2:38:53 AM CDT
Crusade good....fuck TNT!!! I know, not a very eloquent title...
by ahriman
I just watched Crusade three hours ago. I must say that I have positive aspirations for this series still. "War Zone" acted the way it was supposed to, as an introduction and pace setter. Evan Chen's music is grating, but I agree, not as grating as "A Call to Arms." Gideon is just a bad-ass, Dureena is a bad-ass, Galen is a bad-ass, Trace is a bad-ass. Fucking everyone is a bad-ass! (Well, with the exception of Eilerson.) Good to see that JMS still possesses a knack for creating Garibadli-esque, G'kar-like, and Lorien-esque characters. Galen is my favorite by far. He has a presence which just commands a shifty smile from the geek-side of my subconcious. Drakh skull masks blew donkey-shit, but the lead Drahk's make-up still maintained the tradition complex look I enjoyed. I don't care what anyone says, the special effects were still up-to-par in my book. Compare it to second season B5 if you can without laughing. Y'know, this is the THIRD time where I've uttered the words "Fuck the critics." I said it after seeing Phantom Menace, and even with the finale of Deep Space Nine. I'm saying it now, and for the LAST time....FUCK THE CRITICS! This show carries on the mantle in the best of ways.
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Why is everyone so down on Chen's score? I heard it, and while at times it *is* too understated (sutch as the opening), it never struck me as horrible or dull. In fact I downright liked a lot of it, and fully intend to get the soundtrack if it's released. It's not like anything I've heard before, and that alone deserves some merrit. Give it a chance people, it doesnt ruin Crusades, it gives it depth. Wouldnt it seem redundant\plaguaristic of Franke did the music again? Dont get me wrong, I loved Franke's B5 scores, but that was for B5. This is for Crusade. Chen's score works, in my humble opinion. And what do I think of Crusade? Shakey at times, not perfect. But any of you ever seen The Gathering (B5's pilot)? 'Nuff said. Crusade is good. :)
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Once again, Straczynski proves that he can deliver an intelligent and entertaining science fiction show that doesn't denigrate the viwer. Crusade is the simply the best sf show on television, today.
Crusade evokes otherworldliness--the wonders of an imaginary universe caressing the the imagination like a nebula. At the same time it presents very human needs, values of a philosophy questioning what it means to be human. "Where are you going?" and "Who do you serve" touches upon our deepest mythologies, resonating with a historical depth found in the ancient Greek tragedies, as well as in the works of Dante, Milton, and Shakespeare, to name a few.
Crusade needs to continue, because television needs these fundamental questions of mythology presented as Literature.
Kurt Lancaster, PhD -
Evan Chen happens to be an excellent composer. He helps the set the tone and style of Crusade. His music moved me as deeply as the best of Christopher Franke. If we had received Franke's composition or some John Williams, James Horner, or even a Star Trek type style of music, this show would not work at the same level. It simply would not be Crusade without Chen. You get rid of Chen and you will remove Crusade's aural soul. Keep up the good work Chen! Straczynski, Copeland, Netter, and the rest--Congratulations on a job well done. May you get your remaining 4.5 years!
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I think the escuse for the poor virtual sets is that they did just what they had to do to finish up the 13 episodes. The drak firing on and blowing that shuttle up from the ground was a really, really poor cgi scene. They knew it was a lost cause and did not have their hearts in to the work. It's a real shame since I think the cast did an excellent job. JMS's writting was much better than season 5 of B5. His decision to fire Chris and go with Chen still jams me up. TNT probably heard Chen's "music" (I use that term loosely) and decided to replace the show with wrassling.
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We're off to outer space, we're leaving mother earth.....to save the human race.......
The previous comment about Crusade being a Starblazers rip off was on pretty much on target. Even the Excalibur's main weapon reminded me of the Argo (or Yamato for the purists) wave motion gun. That said, I think the show has potential to grow into it's own if given the chance beyond the initial 13. Although based on the preview for the second episode I'm not so sure.
If they want to do Starblazers, do it dammit. With all the CGI technology it could easily be carried out. And PLEASE!!! Stick to the original story. If they make the Yamato into the Arizona I will refuse to watch......sorry going off on a tangent there. -
I thought that the episode was good. It's a shame that they went cheap on the effects and alien costumes. The story was strong for a first episode. At points, Chen's music was still off, but I thought that the closing scenes were scored quite well.
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I would much rather have seen the series presented as JMS intended, with "Racing the Night" as ep. 1. But even a tacked-on ep like this was very expansive, much more so than your typical B5 episode. Many different worlds, many things I never saw before, interesting images that seemed almost mystical. In a sense, it evokes Lucas's comments about Star Wars special effects--there are no more constraints. Anything a writer can imagine can make it up onto the screen. Well, Lucas gave us Jar-Jar and JMS gave us Crusade. And if some of the effects are lame, well...give me a lame underground city any day over a photorealistic Jar-Jar. If we have to endure some unconvincing CGI, then so be it--let's call it "style" and move on. I for one am looking forward to the rest of this "limited series."
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Personally, I did find this episode to be kinda weak. It was a basic everyone meeting everyone with a simple conflict thrown in (the crashed ship) to give it a plot. The effects were at times pretty bad compared to B5's standard (i.e. badly superimposed stock explosion footage, mediocre compositing with the virtual sets). However, it really dripped with potential for what this series could become. My gripes about it seemed to be just localized to this episode only and not the series as a whole. I find the exploration of the galaxy for a cure arc to be interesting, but I'm sure if JMS can continue beyond the 13 it will grow into something far more grand and bigger than we imagined. After all, Babylon 5 was supposed to be about some neutral space station for diplomats - and look what we got!!!!
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Yes, Crusade may have its faults. But it is still heads above whatever else is being broadcast. It isn't Babylon 5, nor is it meant to be. Just set int he same literary universe.
Let JMS get this into full swing. If things go well (i.e. ratings) then someone will pick up the rest of the episodes. Think of all the press JMS and Babylonian Productions is getting for this SNAFU by TNT. More mainstream viewers might be tuning in to check it out. And even if the first episodes are a cut below some of B5's finest, it is still better than anything they're already watching!
By the way, I thoroughly enjoyed the episode. And Evan Chen's score does seem to fit; it was just different from what we were used to (especially his first effort in A Call To Arms).
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Tightman said..."And even if the first episodes are a cut below some of B5's finest, it is still better than anything they're already watching!"
Where do these statements come from? I don't know what you are watching, but the stuff I am watching is light years better than what was seen on Crusade.
HBO, for instance, is re-running "The Sopranos" at 9PM on Wednesdays. There is an excellent series--great scripts, dialogue, acting, characters, and intelligence.
Watching that and then watching Crusade is a poor juxtaposition. I found myself instantly having to lower my standards.
So, what do you think the rest of us are watching? Baywatch? -
When I think about it, Crusade didn't really have a 'pilot' like 'The Gathering'. A Call To Arms was a B5 movie despite the obvious lead in for Crusade and doesn't really count. I guess I groaned a bit when I read AICN's reviews about the eps, but I liked what I saw last night and can see the glimmer of what could've been had the show not been cancelled. Gideon is a refreshing change and what commander/captain hasn't been the most popular choice for the job? Would've liked to have seen more of Galen. Overall, the Mrs. and I both enjoyed it. I see real potential here.
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To me, it seemed to back up the half-heartedness I feared would leak thru to the small screen. Don't get me wrong, I really *WANT* to see the full arc here. I don't like the changes that have been made in the fx. The new laser blasts absolutely suck, imho. It looks like something you'd find in a low-budget scifi movie. Other than that, and the characters actually speaking things that I think should be left for us to figure out is just a minor annoyance. I do like the show. It has a lotta potential. I hope it has the chance to live up to some of what it could be. I have faith (still). Never b4 had anything grabbed me like B5, and I 'm thinking nothing will again. Crusade doesn't live up to its predecessor, but it could in the weeks to come. The space shots are EXCELLENT as always. I like the change in music. It needs a new intro, cuz the one they have is almost too cheesy. uhmm... I have to run, or i'd pick it apart. I like the cast/crew. Galen is sure to be a fave. I think i'm gunna like th'teep and his commander. Druenna(sp?)rox, of course. Noble, for a thief.
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is the fact that TNT used the 'bumpers' from Joe Bob Briggs' Monstervision (aka cheesey Z-grade movies) throughout the entire thing. What a slap in the face! I guess that shows us how little TNT cares about a show that could've been a contender.
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That's about the best I can say about it. There was not a whole lot that reached out and grabbed me, say, the way that The Gathering (or even Midnight on the Firing Line) did. Sorry - I _liked_ some of those first 13 B5 episodes. There was enough here to introduce stuff, and get me to come back.
As with DS9, I found the civilians more compelling than the military types. Galen was interesting, as predicted, although his role in this episode as "Shoot 'em in the rear because we forgot to watch our backs" Guy struck me as an easy trap for them to fall in to. And so the Technomages use technology to simulate magic in the form of...a dry ice machine?!? Ooh, sign me up - I've got the qualifications already!
Dureena was as interesting as in Call to Arms, and Eilerson actually came across as a kinda appealing character, despite
the advance reviews here and elsewhere. Sort of the civilian/everyman type of guy for the show.
Gideon so far is kinda the tough-guy no-holds-barred captain, which pretty every show has. You'll never see a show revolving around a gentler kinder commander (except maybe Jeffrey Sinclair, and look what happened to him). Geez, why do higher-ups look so surprised when they get a maverick main-character captain: it seems like all such captains in SF TV are like this. Some promise of depth from Gideon there, but this struck me as more Cole's portrayal than the writing to date. Again, we'll see.
Dr. Chambers was pretty much a non-entity - I kinda thought of her more as a military than a civilian type. In typical short-hand writing style, she's
immediately swept in to the Inner Circle for no particular reason just so that we know she will be a main credits-type of character. No real reason is given for Gideon to latch on to her except that she's late (not a good sign) and has an attitude.
Matheson showed the most promise so far, although the telepath angle was really downplayed. "Show not tell" still holds true for TV, and while a scene where
he actually used his telepathy would have been too much, one gets the impression from various rumors floating around about how the Telepath War panned out that stricter guidelines were applied so norms felt more comfortable. Shouldn't the initial scene have featured some suspicion/distrust by the mutineering crewmen? (And one has to wonder about Gideon's captaining skills, if a mutiny even got this far. This may have been the result of the obligatory TNT "fight in the first five mintues" rumored policy, though. It was not only pointless, but made Gideon look like a poor commander.)
And as much as I like Tim Thomerson, he really shouldn't have been trusted with the huge amounts of exposition and screen-time here. Not to mention his constant rolling-over to the typical main-character Captain "My Way or the Highway."
As for the plot itself, so-so. It establishes the basic setting, and gives us the requisite (TNT-demanded?) shoot-'em up. Hopefully they'll get out of the
rut of wandering around rocky wind-swept planets like Ceti IV and whatever next week's planet is. Geez, they could have been having a shootout on Mars rather
than Ceti IV, the planets looked that similar. Somebody above commented on the "wider scope," but it all just looked like a CGI version of Planet Hell to me. The Excalibur suffers from Star Trek's "Only ship in the quadrant" syndrome, but at least there's an (unstated) reason for it.
I'm certainly in for the whole ride. However, I certainly hope it picks up some from what we saw here. -
Actually I thought the first season of B5 was just as described in the opening credits.
*A dangerous edgey place where you vould get your head handed to you at the drop of a hat.* (severe paraphrasing, obviously)
Warzone came off that way for me also.
Hopefully the edginess will remain in Crusade. It makes for better drama than the smoother productions of the last two seasons of B5. IMHO
Cheers
Bill -
I do not feel it is fair to "justify" the series based on one episode, particularly an episode TNT demanded. This is not JMS at his best because this is NOT the way he wanted to start the show. He knew that episodes that have to concentrate on introducing characters seldom are over-powering. So, that said, I will wait for more episodes before I make an opinion about the series. But, my first impressions were that the cast, overall, was pretty strong. I really liked Daniel Dae Kim and Peter Woodward. I disliked Janet Greek's direction and (whoever) made the choice of the highlighting the music over the battle. I felt removed from the battle the entire time and could not follow it. Terrible choice. I will give the music some time, but, I felt it lacked emotion.
Because TNT cheaply produces the episodes, and actually, gives JMS less money than when B5 was syndicated, I did not expect much in the way of FX, and, I prefer story over FX. Again, I will watch more epsisodes before I comment on the overall story. BUT, having Galen say "And so it begins" definitley had a "been there, done that" sort of feel, and hence, was inappropriate. On the other hand, the best scene in the story was between Galen and Gideon (no FX needed,btw).
Lastly, isn't is possible (and knowing the way JMS writes, likely as well) that Who do you serve, Who do you Trust also apply to the Drahk and that the answser there may not be as simple as it sounds? That is the biggest disappointment from TNT, unless a miracle happens, we will not find out. JMS does ask those questions of all his characters (good and bad), and I was curious as to what he had in store with the Drakh (again, FX be damned). -
JMS writes: "Just for the record: I think the first one -- the only one written directly at TNT's behest -- is probably the weakest one, certainly the one I find least interesting. It's lumbered with buckets of exposition, explaining things that don't need explaining, too many fights, too many explosions, too much swaggering around, all stuff the net wanted."
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We've got another month or so before Crusade reaches the UK, so I logged on expecting to read some god awful reviews and what do I find??!! Most postings saying that Crusade is top notch stuff!! There are more positive postings here for Crusade than The Phantom Menace and the DS9 finale!!! I have always felt that Crusade will have something to offer, and since The War Zone was a hastily written and produced episode, imagine how good Crusade will be when it's on target!!
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(Oops. Forgot a subject first time 'round.) I refuse to make apologies for Crusade. Yes, TNT's been interfering. No, this isn't the episode JMS wanted to start off with. Yes, I loved Babylon 5 and would desparately love for this show to cheat death. However, when it's all said and done, all I have to judge it by is the final product. Fortunately, the final product is not awful. Unfortunately, it's also not brilliant. Starting off...the music. I loved Christopher Franke's scores for Babylon 5...they were, to me, the best thing about a very good TV series. And I'm trying not to hate Evan Chen's music for not being Christopher Franke's music. And this episode's music was, indeed, substantially better than that of 'A Call To Arms'. I could see this style growing on me, but it's going to take a while...and I think a different style (Franke or otherwise) would serve the series better, at present. The title sequence was unimpressive, but not horrible (with the exception of the last few seconds...the 'Who do you serve and who do you trust?' question just before JMS's credit gets displayed...such self-indulgence is somewhere between blisteringly annoying and downright offensive.) The episode, as a whole, was not great, but not bad, and I think the series has definite promise...or rather that it would have promise if it hadn't been doomed (barring a miracle) from the outset. I would class the general level of the acting as a shade above that which we typically saw on Babylon 5, especially toward the beginning. (Let's be honest...while B5 had its brilliant actors, it also had its barely-competent actors, and more of them.) The effects weren't too bad (though the space-battle was awful...not so much CGI problems as 'choreography' problems. This was probably the single worst space battle scene I've seen this side of MST3K.) Ah well...overall, the episode had its problems, but those seemed to be mostly technical. I wouldn't class the episode overall as 'bad'...it was, at least (and sadly, at most) an enjoyable hour of TV. And that's rare enough, these days.
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Does anyone else remember when B5 did really great battle scenes? The Shadow attacks in the 2nd and 3rd season, not to mention the scene from "Severed Dreams," were really interesting, dramatic fights. I think one of the important things that those fights had, which all of the later B5 stuff (season 5, the movies, "War Zone") lacks is some actual dialogue. You know, not much, just something to give us a sense of what is actually going on in, rather than just showing some pretty pictures. Anyway, I liked the characters, particularly Matheson and Gideon, and I think the show could go into some interesting directions. The music, though, was truly god-awful.
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I'm mixed up- can anyone help?
According to an episode listing that I saw, the episodes are being run in the following order of production numbers, starting with "War Zone" (108):
108, 107, 106, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 103, 102, 101, 104, 105
Three Questions: (1) Is this the correct order of the STORY? Or are the episodes mixed up?
(2) I heard something about uniform/set changes. Were these changes made in the middle of the story? (i.e. do the first 3 or so episodes have 1 set/uniforms, then the next 4 or so eps have a new set/uniform, and then the final eps go back to the 1st set/uniforms?)
(3) Do the stories contained in the unfilmed episodes all take place AFTER the 13 episodes we'll see? Or do some of them take place in the middle and some after?
Note, I am not asking about the order in which the episodes were filmed (I presume that's what those numbers are? Production numbers?) I'm asking about the order in which the story unfolds.
(This presumes that JMS has told a continuing story here and that the order of the episodes isn't arbitrary, is that correct?)
Thanks for any help on this matter.. -
You know that the score in Call to Arms was gross, but in War Zone, I kinda liked it. jms said that he wanted Crusade to have more of an edge than B5 and by enlarge, I think he succeeded. Gideon is a fairly dark fellow and Matheson does a fairly good job as his XO. As a Navy veteran, I can tell you that the best portrayal of a CO I've seen is Scott Glen in The Hunt for Red October, and Cole does a good job of portraying the same type of man in a similar situation.
The battle at the end was a bit too subdued, and while the score didn't help, jms has done these 'battle montages' before, and generally, I hate them.
oh well.
Toodles.
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Jun 10, 1999 9:19:09 AM CDT
Despite it's name, Crusade isn't meant to be an epic, is it? Ra
by drath
Okay, it looks cheaper than I expected it to. I didn't mind the Drakh helmets, though. When I hear "cheap armored soldiers," I can imagine the worst crap in Dune. But the Drakh? I thought they looked kind of cool. I helped that the played Mortal Kombat before Crusade to decrease our expectations. But even then, those battle scenes were like something out of Saturn 3! If this was JMS's way to prevent TNT from insisting on more battles, then he's cutt his nose off despite his face. The battles were unengaging, fake, and a waste of time and money. I've seen Deep Space Nine do a better job, and that's not good for JMS's record. I actually preferred the CGI cartoon look to this "newer" junk. At least it used to look pretty(even if space doesn't have all those multi-colored clouds everywhere you look). Sad to say this was far from a good openning episode. It felt like it was thrown together--which I guess it was at that. The guy playing the senator sounded like he was badly reciting a paragraphs as he spoke! I've seen better acting on Voyager! And while I can tolerate that wierd music during the episode, the Opening credits SUCKED. The stamped letters, the clips, THE ELEVATOR MUSIC! Dangit, how is that supposed to be good? It's annoying! No way will people accustomed to the epic tunes of B5 be satisfied by this! Well, not most of us anyway. I guess the message is: Despite it's title, Crusade is no epic. Its just a little anthology series like Star Trek, with a mildly diverting mission to inspire inner contemplation. It's not the same agressive story telling like B5 was. I think I'll be agreeing with Glen on a lot of what he said. This is interesting, but it doesn't have the draw of Babylon 5's beginnings, and what little draw it has of its own is just not developed yet--and not likely to be developed in only 13 episodes. So TNT must give it more time to find its way and build its audience. I'll tune and watch(note, I'm a white male in the 18-24 age group, if that pleases the TNT demographic morons any). I'll be watching, hell I need something to fill my tapes other than Farscape.
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I saw nothing in the first Crusade episode to -convince- me it will be great, and nothing to -convince- me that it will suck. If you liked B5, you probably should give it a few episodes to see what it's like. All I would like to really say that I personally have no problem with the music. It's different than anything from any other show, yes. I think that's great in and of itself. My only other thought is a complaint I have of a lot of Sci-Fi shows of this type. Why is it that everyone who lives in the future seems to be American? It bugs me that 80% of everyone has a name like Max or Steve or Julie or Kathy. Just a pet peeve I thought I'd share.
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Did I see the same show as most out there? I thought "War Zone" was dull, tedious, poorly written, poorly scored and poorly directed. I kept waiting for SOMETHING to happen and it did not. I can't blame TNT for this fiasco since the majority of the problems lay in the plot(written by JMS), the dialogue (written by JMS) the editing decisions (partially helmed by JMS, control freak that he is) and the scoring (not written by JMS).
I was amazed at just how bad the acting could be at times. I think Gary Cole is amazingly charismatic in other works and yet here he was as dull as dishwater. The exchanges between him and Tim Thomerson (who can be really good when he wants to be) were excruciatingly painful. So was Eilerson's second in command -- I didn't catch his name.
I must be the only person here who didn't care for Dureena in "A Call to Arms" and her waste of space continued. I don't blame the actress -- just the character conception. She's obviously JMS' homage to Blake 7 (Vila anyone?). Why the HELL is there a Thieves Guild in the 24th Century? As far as I can see, she is a typical D&D Character -- Thief Girl, Level 10 with +6 Cleavage power.
The dialogue was mostly recycled B5 stuff, something JMS started to do in the 5th season. A couple of people caught the "And So It Begins..." bit, but no one else has mentioned the "Expect me when you see me" line from Galen, also used by G'kar and at least one other character. Feh.
I don't mind the lack of continuity between this and "A Call to Arms" -- things change and I'm not that much of a nitpicker. As long as the changes MADE sense. That whole scene with Dureena being dragged out was just ridiculous.
The CGI sucked. The Drahk firing from the ground looked like a cheap-ass arcade video game shot. So did most of the backgrounds.
Then there were the cheesy cardboard sets. Keep in mind this is AFTER TNT poured money into the series -- I can't wait to see what the earlier episodes look like.
JMS can say after the fact that this was the "worst" episode -- considering he's had close to 10 years of experience doing this, the fault does lie with him and his staff and NOT with TNT. The writing was just abyssmal. The acting for the most part was lousy. The directing was horrible (and I'm very disappointed as Janet Greek was my fave B5 director!). This also was not the first episode written or shot but around the 6th or 7th. Therefore there is no excuse that "this is the first time we did this" or "the first time people worked together". It was just poorly done.
I'm still going to give the series a try, albeit a half hearted one. Perhaps it will improve. However,unlike B5 (which despite all the protests here had some damn fine episodes in the first 13 -- "Midnite on the Firing Line" drew me in right away, if only because of Londo and G'kar), it's off to a very poor start. -
Here's a quote from him:
"Just for the record: I think the first one -- the only one written directly at TNT's behest -- is probably the weakest one, certainly the one I find least
interesting. It's lumbered with buckets of exposition, explaining things that don't need explaining, too many fights, too many explosions, too much swaggering around, all stuff the net wanted.
Then we go back to the show we wanted to make...Path of Sorrows is terrific, Well of Forever is a solid character story, The Long Road is just pure fun (that's pretty much reverse broadcast order, btw)...there's one or two in the bunch that are a bit slower than I'd like, but those are the exception rather than the rule.
Just to get my own feelings on this out there.
jms
As for my thoughts on War Zone, it was good. It's only a 1st episode, and thye usually suck anyways. Let's wait for Racing the Night, the original 1st episode. -
CRUSADE's beginning, while flawed, was still great, especially for a first episode. I think the thing I like most about it is that it's purposely different than BABYLON 5. It's a different show, and that is a good thing. I love (and I really cannot make this clear enough, LOVE!) BABYLON 5, and so I'm glad to see it continue. But I'm also glad it's not the same thing. It is growing, or at least showing the potential to do so. I even like the music--very Phillip Glass meets Brian Eno meets Aphex Twin. The first ep. was a great establishment ep. It allows us to meet the characters, and get introduced to the show. I'm looking forward to what's coming. Gideon is my favorite so far, while Galen, whom I thought would be my favorite, is my least. I liked the character in ACtA, but now he seems sort of like a Jedi if Jedis sucked (which they don't). Technomages are one of the coolest ideas SF has ever, ever come up with, and I was glad Stracynski used them in his work. I hope Galen doesn't suck for the rest of the run. All in all, I'm thinking it'll be good, though it would be infinately better if a certain Ranger who died during season four of B5 could be defrosted and join the Excaliber's crew. Oh well. Maybe one day.
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While I didn't really like "War Zone" I think the series could
really be good, some things would
have to change.
The AICN review is pretty much dead-on accurate. Let me add
one thing that I didn't like:
Both ACTA and WarZone had a battle
sequence with no audio, just the
lame Chen "music." This is REALLY
ineffective. This "trick" has been done many times by B5 and
other shows, and it can work. However, you need the right kind
of music, AND you can't do it all
of the time. We have yet to see
a real "Crusade" battle complete
with visual and audio effects.
--p -
Although admittedly JMS does say this episode isn't all that great, I have a lot of problems with it which are NOT episode related.
First of all, the music is sub-par. Although I'm all for using different musical styles, this score is dull, flat and rambling. It has no coherence whatsoever. Secondly, as JMS writes more and more his ability to create believable dialogue disappears. He can't write exposition well at all and a lot of the dialogue is simply poor. It didn't used to be this bad, or perhaps I'm misremembering through rose-colored glasses. I would have to agree that the "action" parts are also poor - slow, dull and uninteresting. The emotional range of the actors leaves much to be desired, and the weird mysticism that JMS infused into the latter seasons of B5 have returned at an even worse pitch from the start. Mysticism is great, if you can do it right. JMS can't. I think I'm going to tragically dislike Crusade, even though I was a big fan of B5 for the first 3.5 years (after which it went downhill like squirrels taped to a watermelon). -
Ok, I am a big Star Trek fan and I have never really gotten into Babylon 5. Now, with that being said, this show was not very good at all. I mean the acting was piss poor and those special effects are, well, PISS POOR. They did run some Babylon 5 movie after this show (Call to Arms, I think) and that wasn't too bad...at least those people can act. You know its funny, I have read hear and there that Babylon 5 is sooooooo much better than Trek. Now that I have had a look into that universe YOU PEOPLE MUST BE CRAZY. But what the hell, it's Sci-Fi and Voyager is running re-runs, so I'll watch it.
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I was very disapointed in Crusade. Bad SFX, bad scripting and mediocre acting.
Gary Cole is a good actor but his performance as Capt. Gideon was hamperd by cliched dialog and characterization. THe actor playing Lt Matheson was also limited by a poorly writen character. Hes an ex Psi-Corps member and the " best first Officer" in the fleet. Yet nothing he does or say backs up this claim. Hes given the usual Sulu/Uhura "yes sir warp one" type dialoge. Dr Chambers fairs even worse. The dialog is bad, the characterization is zero and the actress seem stiff and unconvincing. Then we have two charactesr that seem to have been rolled up at an all night D&D marathon. A wiley theif and a wizard. It seems to me thatin the premier episode of a series we should get to know the characters a little better. In Crusade all we got were cliches and cyphers.
The make and SXF were subpar as well. Did anyone else think they were watching an Episode of" Mighty Morphing Power Rangers" when the aliens showed up on Ceti 4? And what happened to the SFX? I felt like I was playing a third rate video game not watching a TV show.
What was with that silent battlescene/montage? That was horrible. Was the dialog so bad they had cut it out?
Sure the first season of B5 was pretty weak. But after five years of B5 you'd think the lessons learned would be applied to Crusade.
Mike
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This has mostly been said, but, here is my take
Overall B
Story: A
I bought the story line, although the idea of Sheridan just bumping the whole project over to an earth crew with little or no briefing seems a little thin.
Music: D
Although Evan Chen was improved from the earlier TV movie, it lacks true dramatic passion.
Special effects : C+
The new cutting edge stuff is tempered by "unfinished" CG shots. New Drak coustumes are quite weak
Captain: B+
Good drive is tempered by an affront to B5's human coming of age story In "In the Beginning" Earth sends a captain with an almost identicle "Bust some heads" additude out on a exploration and it causes the Earth-Mimbari War! I guess humans never learn? To quote Army of Darness, "Are all men from the future load mouthed braggerts?"
Galen: A+
Techno mages. . .hmm, very cool.
Dureena A-
Doctor (M Holden?) D+
This holdover from thirdspace has a very artificial feel to her acting
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People in the future are all American for the same reason that people in the present and the past are. Except the bad ones of course. And the ones played by Christopher Lambert, who don't seem to be from anywhere. Well, nowhere on any map I've seen.
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Well, After seeing this episode I just thought of a couple things. I could do better with a couple Camcorders and my computer. I mean come on people the graphics were piss poor, the actors were wooden no emotion, and the script was god awful. It seemed like it was written over 2 or 3 hour time period. The good thing is it can only get better well maybe anyways.
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You know... I just rewatched it, and liked it a lot more than the first time. Sure, the bad lines and Drakh masks (Shudder) still irritated me, but I liked it a lot more. And the wierd thing is... I like the music. The first time I watched it, I kept expecting a Christopher Franke melody to pop out of nowhere. But after watching the opening sequence a few times, not to mention tapping my fingeralong with the tune... I like it.
Can't wait to see episodes 2-13... or perhaps 2-110? -
Okay, this is the way I see it. Just from looking at the LOOOONG list of people that have posted at this talkback, I'd say there is interest in CRUSADE. I think people will be watching it, myself included. That much is certain. Was it a good first episode in black and white/yes and no? Yes. It was, dictionary definition, "good." The sets were no more or less impressive than your usual B5 episode, and the effects were no better or worse either. Yes, I felt that is was slighly trite how, on the first day, Gideon meets all of these colorful characters and he proclaims "SIGN EM UP" when he first meets them. I did think the Draak looked a little silly. I do think Mr Chen does need to be a little more thematic in his work. (I do love his "style," for it is very unique, but he does need more "substance" to drive it.) One can make excuses left and right for all of this..I do it too, but what it boils down to is " What did I get from this 1 hour show. Can it stand on it's own as one hour of entertainment?" I'd say yes. No, it is not the strongest first episode, but what I always feel is the most important factor in filmed entertainment is THE CHARACTERS. we do not have any more than ONE EPISODE behind us on how we judge these characters, and for the amount of time that JMS was given, I feel the groundwork is there. I want to see more of these people, and I want to see the actors expand into their parts. These are some good actors!!! Is there room for improvement? Sure, of course there is. Nothing on TV can ever be perfect, it's just the medium. Knowing what the parameters and limitations are means you can survive on the air and I feel, usually, JMS knows. I will watch. I will enjoy.
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I thought the episode of crusade I saw last night was a really good start, it was interesting and it could really go somewhere. I wasn't impressed with the music though. The time I thought it really detracted was during the battle scene towards the end, where there were really cool graphics but somebody didn't put sound effects to the guns and rocket engines! Perhaps this was artistic license but IMHO its a bit early for that, I could go for a little more crowd pleasing. Anyhoo, the music just couldn't carry the scene, it was WAAAAAAY too uninteresting. Pity.
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I found the show to be highly entertaining. I am enamored as to if this series will survive and if it will continue to get better each episode. I highly respect JMS and hope to see this show become as great as B5? I must say the character of Galen really stands out. I was highly impressed with the actor's (Woodward) portrayal of this technomage, a very strong presence.
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OK, I've not seen B5 so I can't really compare the 2 series.
But on its own, Crudsade seemed very amateurish.
The script appeared thrown together (we haven't got an archeologist in place yet...oh wait, let's run into one by happenstance and force him to join our merry crew).
Those enemy Drakh were just plain goofy-looking. Were did they rent those costumes from...Big, dumb, skull-heads "R" us?
The acting was horrible. Cole just tried to look introspective but came off like he had no idea what was going on.
Thomerson seemed to have trouble delivering lines.
That Archeological pilot was smarmy.
The archeologist was too happy-go-lucky. Yep, we're gonna die...just my luck! He didn't look like he cared at all.
The Techo-mage?? And that scene at the end with the smoke?? Ohhhh, it seemed so fake.
All of it seemed fake. They were selling but I wasn't buying.
I do like SciFi and generally watch what I can. I will not defend a show just because it happens to be SciFi, however.
Demand better of the genre! -
First off, just for the record, I am a huge DS9 fan. That said, I thought 'War Zone' needed to be a lot better. Here's why: JMS has already showed us that it can work if you introduce the main charectors over 4 or 5 episodes. He did this in the first 'really crappy' B5 episodes that (for the most part) I didn't mind. So we didn't need the first 1/2 hour "Here are the Charectors" section. My opinion of the music and FX was that thet were weak, we've ranted on that enough. THe DRakh costums we've seen before, I don't know what the problem there is, and that first one we saw ever in B5 said that they were an 'emissary' of the Drakh, not a Drakh himself. There was no point in the huge space battle, wasted time that could be used for the charectors, and the battle was anti-climactic. I hated Galen. In my opinion he was a Kosh wanna-be. We did not need him here. The theif (her name escapes me right now) is anouther that could be left for episode 2. These two charectors could have been left with whatever intro they already had. I just hope the series picks-up. Enough ranting for me, maybe I'll post later.
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Is it me or has anyone else ever notice that size matters when it comes to JMS. First we have this 5 mile long space station, now we have this 1 mile long space ship. Everything must be big? Is it a case of penis envy or something else? Just a thought. Well at least the series isn't going to be the Best Little whore house this side of the galaxy. And War Zone was OK, not bad but for an average viewer it doesn't eager to see next weeks episode but I'd watch it if it'd happen to be on. And get rid of that noise, the music sounds like breaking plates and slamming garbage cans.
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First of all I liked this episode. Yes it has it's problems, but as an episode never ment to be written,I think it was good. I liked Gideon, i am sick of pretty boy white guys in science fiction like Kirk, Sheriden, Mulder, and the new Earth Final Conflict guy.
I had some problems with the episode, most of the charecters meeting seemed well thought out, but the whole incedent with the Drach seemed like an afterthought, which it was. Music was better than in ACTA but the main theme was weak and there should be sound FX and dialouge in the battle scenes, not just music.
What many of you don't realize is that the team has less than a million dollars to make an episode. The voyager pilot cost over 20 million. Deep space 9 has 2 million an episode and it's anticipated finale had less new space battle footage than War Zone. One episode of ER has over 12 Million. So for those of you compaining about FX, and sets, they simply don't have much money. Many of you argue that B5 had better FX but I certainly did not notice any drop in quality. If there was, it was minimal. Mars dome looked better than it did in year 4 of b5. That landscape looked like a N64 video game. This episode also had alot more CGI than a typical B5.
I believe I will enjoy what's left of the series, though like B5, the story arc was not supposed to start till mid year 1, so we will never see where this was going unless it is saved. Finally too many of you are judging too soon. After reading all these talkbacks, it seems like many of you wanted to hate this show and had your mind made up. As I said before, if you were to judge B5 from it's beginning, you would remeber B5 ass a poor Deep Space 9 ripoff. It is easy to like those episodes now when you already like these charecters, but when i started watching them, I thought i was a much worse start than this is. -
My take on #1 is that this is the weakest of the bunch, because this is the only one written at the behest of TNT; it's exposition heavy, too much swaggering macho stuff, no real depth, just stuff blowing up. The ones that follow are much better
All that exposition is what TNT wanted...and one of the reasons was that they weren't going to rerun ACtA before it...then they were, which made it all unnecessary...then they ran ACtA AFTER the ep...which makes NO kind of sense.
TNT note: we need to SEE Earth in turmoil, if we just hear about it nobody's going to get it. They had us insert that.
Yep. That's one of the mandates they put on the first ep...they wanted to start with a fist-fight.
jms -
While I can understand people's reservations about the quality of different aspects of this initial show, I would like you to consider how disconcerting it must have been for the cast to have begun filming a series and portraying their respective characters only to be told, "Hold on, wait a minute...do over!" What kind of nonsense is that to have to put up with!?! I happen to think Evan Chen's music is a welcome change from the standard brass laden triumphal marches that pass for themes on most sci-fi offerings. It's quirky and unique. I'd love to hear how his sound develops over time. Personally I'm going to give the show all thirteen episodes before I pass judgement.
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I must say I'm at a total loss to explain the hatred of Chen's scoring. Maybe I could be a bit biased because of my surround sound setup and how Chen's bass sounds coming out of a big M&K sub, but I really believe that people are just too afraid to give something new a chance. If nothing else, you have to admit that there is a genuine 'alien' sound to Chen's music. I think it really sets a great MOOD for Crusade, a show where the characters are presumably going to be getting their hands into all kinds of alien cultures. The sound should be a bit bizarre. Kudos to JMS for not sticking with the obvious choice. Also, I thought the captain and 1st office avoided sci-fi stereotypes left and right. TNT can be blamed for asking for this awkward set-up episode, but hell, that's the most minor of their many offenses.
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i don't know what kind of budget those guys had to work with but it was apparent after few minutes that this is not going to be another B5. the music suck, the oppening suck (who are you ?...)the actors looked happy that they got the gig but unsure of who they are and what do they want(hmmm, maybe that is what all those opening questions ment ?)i think that season five of B5 was weak, as well as, all those two hours movies (all except the first one "in the beginning")however this Crusade is beggining to smell bad. someone was complaining about the absence of CC, i have to agree. with CC i could read it without listening to that awful sound. i will watch it out of loyalty to B5 but i'm not optimistic
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Alright, the show was all exposition. But what was the deal with showing "A Call to Arms" after the episode?!?!?! Why didn't they show it before the premiere to help the less informed. Jeez!!!! I guess the execs over at TNT can't get enough of Mortal Kombat. You gotta show it at least 20 times a week, or you might forget what it's about. About the episode, even B5 wasn't pretty when it started. You gotta give the show some time to warm up. JMS says the premiere was written to please TNT execs. And I can believe it. Too bad the time to warm up is pretty slim. Hell, my friend yelled at me for getting him interested in a show that probably won't last that long. He liked the show, and wished it wasn't going to end so soon. Though, we totally agreed on one thing....Galen is going to be the most interesting character of the show.
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Good: Gary Cole! I had never seen him in anything before and thought he was miles above any previous B5 or Trek captain in their opening episodes. The music. I really liked it, as I did in ACTA. It seemed more polished (and probably more Frankeish) in this episode. Peter Woodward, of course. Pacing was very good for the most part as well, better than most B5 eps. Bad: Dialogue, dialogue, dialogue! Especially in the "your mission, should you choose to accept it" scenes. I'm sure jms knows his limitations and wasn't keen on writing that part, but it was exacerbated by: Casting of the bit parts. Ewwwwww. Ugly: Some rank special effects. Drakh that looked an awful lot like Jem'Hadar. That silent battle scene - a noble experiment which utterly failed. And way too much exposition for my tastes - the fault of the network. And last but not least, TNT's "revenge editing" (no closed caption, rude cuts to commercials) and "revenge scheduling" (ACTA *after* the episode which follows it chronologically?!)
I will be taping all the episodes in SP. Based on the pilot alone, this show deserves to live (or if it doesn't, no Trek series ever did, nor did B5.)
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Well, I would just like to say that everyone writting to Sci-Fi Channel asking them to pick up this pile of Shit (Crusade) should change the hedding to save Space Above & Beyond. That series started of great no slow starts there and got cancelled because of infighting. It was well written and had a lot of action seens. I would rather watch reruns of SAB than watch new episodes of Crusade. Those are my thoughts and i'm sure there are others out there that will agree with me.
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Quit picking it apart! This is
the first chapter of an adventure.
The first (few) chapters are to set up the action. Has anyone read The Stand? I skipped over a lot of the Captain Tripps explanations. It didn't really grab me until everyone started their journey to Mother Abigail's.
You can say the same with The Phantom Menace. That is CHAPTER 1. We saw the best part of SW 20+ years ago. The first trilogy will be great, but not the same because Lucas is setting up the story in the first 3. He had the same problems as JMS. The journey is the story and it has barely begun. Unfortunately, odds are our journey will be ending too soon, so enjoy and raise a glass to what might have been. I do think, however, I know how to save Crusade. Since Ted likes to appear in his movies, make him the Vice President Earth, have something happen to the President and he'll become President of Earth. He'll get those cameos he likes to do. Let's face it, there's not much left for billionaires to do. If JMS is reading any of this, I really enjoyed it and Evan Chen's music. AND, there are too many armchair quarterbacks above me. JMS could do better, but with what he had to work with and under, it was good.
It would have made sense to start at midpoint, but not for new fans, only for us diehards. -
By and large, I'd have to say I enjoyed it. There were a number of moments that made me feel all warm and fuzzy ("And so it begins", "Who do you serve and who do you trust").
That's not to say there weren't problems - some of the acting was a little wooden, the episode seemed a little rushed and disjointed, and I'd agree that it didn't work well as an introduction.
However, I enjoyed the performances of the Captain, First Officer, and the Technomage. The new jumpgate effect was cool.
So, after seeing it, I think I will write TNT and Sci-Fi. I think the series is worth saving, and will improve with time. -
Good Stuff! JMS has again created a group of fully realized characters in a single episode!
(with the possible exception of the Doctor. Marjean was striking in ACTA, but didn't really seem to come out in this one.)
And I LIKE THE MUSIC!!
Other than the Drakh underlings' costumes (I never liked them in B5 either) my only problem was the episode itself. Continuity problems abound having this episode follow *immediately* after ACTA.
I am particularly struct by the feel of the action sequences first done on ACTA. The silent, breaking between slo-mo and real-time action, with just the music in the background is *really cool*. I noticed it somewhat in ACTA, but it really becomes noticeable here.
I particularly liked the Drakh captain's challenge to Gideon - 'When your world is gone... who will you be.' This is exactly the situation of the Drakh, having Z'Ha'Dum snatched out from under them.
Can't wait for next week.
P.S. B5 season 1 had some of the best (and obviously some of the worst) episodes - Midnight on the Firing Line, Parliament of Dreams, Deathwalker - even *before* Signs and Portents (which was more notable for being the first 'arc' show than as a stand-alone episode itself). -
Saying that Warzone makes Babylon5 look bad is like saying that Star Trek 5 (or 7, or 9) means that all Trek is bad...
-
One more try....According to an episode listing that I saw, the episodes are being run in the following order of production numbers, starting with "War Zone" (108) and ending with "Each Night I Dream of Home" (105): 108, 107, 106, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 103, 102, 101, 104, 105. Three Questions: (1) Is this the correct order of the STORY? Or are the episodes mixed up? (2) I heard something about uniform/set changes. Were these changes made in the middle of the story? (i.e. do the first 3 or so episodes have 1 set/uniforms, then the next 4 or so eps have a new set/uniform, and then the final eps go back to the 1st set/uniforms?) (3) Do the stories contained in the unfilmed episodes all take place AFTER the 13 episodes we'll see? Or do some of them take place in the middle and some after? Note, I am not asking about the order in which the episodes were filmed (I presume that's what those numbers are? Production numbers?) I'm asking about the order in which the story unfolds. (This presumes that JMS has told a continuing story here and that the order of the episodes isn't arbitrary, is that correct?) Thanks for any help on this matter..
-
If Paramount had canceled ST:TNG after 13 episodes, we would never have heard about the Borg, never seen "Yesterday's Enterprise", a bunch of other great episodes, or "All Good Things" where the painfully bad plot line from "Encounter at Farpoint" was finished with interesting and compelling drama (and cool f/x).
P had good reason to kill it. I don't know how it did in the ratings, but the dialog was terrible. The story was going around in circles (they used the transporter to resolve many of the plot lines), and Captain Picard was portrayed as happy and giddy. Thank goodness that Wesley was there to ask stupid questions so everything could be explained to us:(
Yes the script for War Zone could have been better, but it was pretty clear that much of it was there to introduce new viewers to the show. Gideon's line "You're a technomage.--People who use technology to perform feats of magic." Well, duh. We all know that. My guess is the TNT execs in Atlanta didn't.
I liked the story. I liked Dureena and Galen especially. Having already appeared as these characters before, the actors were comfortable delivering their lines. Most of the other actors seemed less comfortable. They just need more practice.
I am looking forward to the remaining shows. I got this quote from the Lurker's Guide page: (http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/501.html)
"Just for the record: I think the first one -- the only one written directly at TNT's behest -- is probably the weakest one, certainly the one I find least interesting. It's lumbered with buckets of exposition, explaining things that don't need explaining, too many fights, too many explosions, too much swaggering around, all stuff the net wanted." - JMS
Anyway, it just needs time. Hopefully it can get some more next year with Sci-Fi.
-
Jun 11, 1999 9:07:28 AM CDT
ups, I ment: The question is: did many people watch CRUSADE, wer
by skript
-
I personally thought the first episode was crap, but I won't assume the entire future of it will be crap because I do remember the first season of B5--the Horror , the Horror. THe show has potential, but that wasn't apparent in the premiere, as was the case with Midnight on the firing line. The opening credits was not forceful enough, just like the Sinclair monologue. I kind of understand what chen was trying to do, giving the credits an exotic/romantic feel to them, but I could barely hear any music. THe other problem was they kept on asking too many question in the first hour, "what, who, when, where". It got boring after awhile. THe episode seemed forced, it would have been better if it started six months into the show. I do not want to see an action sequence like that again, I found it interesting in Call to Arms, but you can't repeatedly fight with no words and only music. I was watching the excalibur battle sequence for 5 miinutes and expected them to say something. Having Sheridan introduce the captain to his new ship would of helped the show alot, intead of the weak acting on the part of the Mars congressman. The plot was not like a usual JMS plot, it seemed too convenient--the linguist being available on the planet the drahk ship falls, the Excalibur being the closest ship to the planet. Seeing the Drahk take down the ship with their hand weapons was cool, but they got too much air time--its better to keep the villains mysterious. But if the show is renewed, I will expect a lot more from it.
-
So, it wasn't the greatest. It was still much better than the majority of what TNT puts on. I enjoyed it enough to hope it keeps showing (somewhere), so that it has a chance to grow like B5 did.
-
- The scene where footage of Earth is shown out of control: strikes; cults; was horrible.
- There were telephone polls?
- In 270 years, there are still telephone polls?
- That footage seem like it was taken off the news and edited into -
Not quite sure WHY so many of the posts seem obliged to compare this first episode to (a) the Star Trek series in general; (b) Voyager; (c) B5; (d) the 1st 13 eps of B5; (e) the last season of B5; (f) the 1st 13 eps of STNG; (g) the TNT lineup (?!); (h) SWE1, 4-6; (h) upcoming Crusade eps (even JMS did this!); or (j) How about some thought on the episode itself? (of course, I'll be sure to make some comparisons to several of the above as I go along too ;^)
I thought "War Zone" was NOT a terrible beginning. Sure it had some faults, but to the extent that it set up the main players, I thought we walked away with some substantive pointers as to who they are and where this series may take us with them. As I see it, we got: (1) your tough guy, "I'll do it my no-nonsense-way," loyal to the "regular guy" good guys, tenacious, thinking man's Captain Gideon - (sort of reminds me of another JMS captain to whom ALL of those attributes apply, ouch, a comparison); (2) your straight-laced, perfectionist, highly competent 1st officer with the interesting twist of his being a telepath shortly after a war between humanity and telepaths (what ARE those "new" restrictions??); (3) your free-spirited, scantily clad sexy woman who is Highly intelligent and straight-thinking (appearances to the contrary notwithstanding) who will be routinely underestimated by most people (except for that loyal thinking man's captain, of course)- she sort of reminds me of a smarter Leela (of Dr. Who fame, oops, another comparison! :^); (4) an enigmatic technomage- who, despite looking interesting, may quickly become a boor if he continues to speak to his comrades-in-arms in puzzles (sort of reminds me of Millennium's Emma telling the enigmatic Frank Black: "What the HELL are you talking about??!!- I'd like to see Gideon say something similar to Galen if he persists with that pseudo-mystic blah bla)(after all, just because your science is so advanced that it LOOKS like magic, doesn't mean you're obligated to talk like a magician, right??); (5) The Archeologist - a pragmatic, non-jokester, intelligent, level headed guy- who, to me, looks like he might have the most promise. His character, while seeming deceptively bland and straightforward)looks pretty different from your basic adventure/scifi genre TV regular character- he's NOT a hero type, but not a "coward who complains about danger for laughs" type character either (see: that thiefy guy on Blakes 7, I forget his name, or Dr. Zachary Smith for the essence of that type). Potential here (just a guess here: I'm thinking that JMS sees this guy as closest to being his surrogate on the show); and (6) a sensitive Dr. who didn't get many lines so I'll reserve judgment. (Did I forget anyone? If so, then insert "unmemorable" into their description). All in all, I'm curious to see where it goes (I know, it goes to ep 13 and dies! :^(. -
The first episode was very weak. And most of the fault was in the writing. Sure, the bad effects and strange editing choices matter, but there was no interesting story. Just some stuff happens. The dialog was terrible and if I hear any more recycled dialog ("high IQ boys" again!) I will break the damn TV!
And for those who keep saying "its just the start:" that is not true. Unless all of B5 production personnel were let go it shouldn't be this bad. I offer the first episode of DS9 (Emissary) as a comparison. IMHO it still is one of the best written 2 hours in television and it was the first episode. And like Crusade it was by a group of people who were already "in the groove." Sad to say it, but TNT may have been right to can this show... -
I just saw Crusade and I like it. Yes the show starts off pretty slow. Character develop is lacking. But all in all it was enjoyable. And if you remember B5 was also like that. I actually missed most of the first season becuase it was slow and confusing. I did not care for the show. The following year was compelling enough to bring me back to it. Give Straczynski some time to flesh it out. Just like a good book, the beggening of it may be slow but by the end it leaves you wanting more.
"Wildferret" -
Jun 11, 1999 7:51:43 PM CDT
CRUSADE CHAT YESTERDAY, ONLY 10-15 PEOPLE WERE ONLINE
by shewhomustbeobey
Just visited thestation.com
cultural center. they had the
first chat last night, only
10-15 people showed(I'm guilty
too!) LETS SHOW SOME SUPPORT!!
Next chat next Thursday!!!!
-
OK...here's my two Centuari Dukets worth...
OVERALL: I liked it
SFX: Awesome...I thought it was somewhat of an improvement on B5
MUSIC: Hey, Chen ain't Franke, but was Franke Stuart Copeland? Give the guy a chance. I think I'm one of the few people out there who would have loved to see Copeland score B5. Yeah, I was disappointed when Franke started...and I'm a *long* time Tangerine Dream fan...just take a look at what happened from "Midnight On The Firing Line" to "Sleeping In Light". SIL was increadibly beautiful stuff...and imho, Franke's best work on B5. Point here is Franke's scores got better as time went on...give Chen a chance! Chen's music is different, and like an earlier post suggested, very much like a Forbidden Planet-type soundtrack. I think it fits this show...it's different...and *very* dark.
CHARACTERS:
-Gideon rocked! The mystery of Sinclair (and yeah...there's *definately* more there)paired with the cast-iron set of nuts of Sheridan. I think this guy's gonna be interesting! In short, "le main de fer sur le gant velour". (Pardon my French)(TRANSLATION: The iron hand in the velvet glove)
-Galen: Love the character, love the acting. To allude to an earlier post (Kosh "wannabe")...he has always been here. Kosh wannabe, or Kosh? (Mull *that* one over)
-Dureena: Liked her in ACTA, like her now. More to follow, I'm sure
-Chambers: Bleah!
-Eilerson: I guess, like Giseon said, he's *our* pain in the butt. I think his character will be interesting.
Matheson: No one here is *exactly* who they appear to be. 'Nuff said.
The Drakh: Great villains, bad execution. Not evil enough in this ep, I thought. Standard bad-guy material here...now, if they could all be like Wayne Alexander's sinister portrait (as in "Fall Of Centuari Prime"), now *then* we have ourselves a menace!
SHIP: Cool! Someone get the rights to do a model ASAP! Excaliber is *awesome*!
Look...it's only the first ep. Yeah, it's what TNT wanted...but if you look at it as the start of something instead of The Second Coming of B5...it plays much better.
Remember, DS9 and Voyager were certainly *not* ST:NG. Crusade is *not* B5.
Put things in perspective; then, if you decide that the series is subpar, *then* pan it.
Give it a chance.
Who knows...you may even like it.
Regards. -
What's that I hear? It sounds like the usual static coming from a bunch of confused, bitter, and overobsessed Star Trek fans trying to nitpick what they'll never understand while desperately trying to hang on to a few grains of old glory at the same time. Well as others have been saying, I'm glad the critics hated The Phantom Mencae and I'm glad Glen and the Trekkies don't like Crusade because their displeasure left me pleasantly surprised at how fun Crusade's first episode Warzone was. We still seem to be getting posts from people who want instant gratification and use the old "jms has had plenty of time and experience, blah, blah, yakkity smakkity, ect. ect." excuse but forget that, as others have pointed out, Warzone was a TNT-tooled episode. And despite their interference, jms was still able to pull off a B+ outing for our new crew of explorers. And why all the complaining about the CGI and Drakh costumes? Most of the CGI was every bit as good as B5's and some were even better. I loved that shot where Eilerson sees the Drakh ship come crashing down in a trail of smoke. It looked pretty convincing. I also loved that scene where the Drakh troops were getting shot by Gideon's approaching air team. Very cool. I wished the battle scene montage hadn't been done in slo mo but I still liked it for the most part and it let us see the Excalibur in action while it carved up the Drakh fleet with its nifty weapons which was fun to watch too. None of that "shields are up 20%! Shields are down 40%!" back and forth crap.
I also loved it when Galen would use that great cloak and zap 'em method of backup when protecting the crew while in the Drakh ship. The sets were very nice and well detailed. The same people who complain about the Drakh "soldiers" fail to mention how great the Drakh leader looked. I'll admit the Drakh soldiers could've been a little better but they still looked cool. Like creepy, mean little bug eyed bad asses and they were still a heck of a lot more interesting to stare at than your usual pathetic, unimaginative Star Trek humans, er aliens with their pinched cheeks, noses, and eye brows. If you've every seen a photo of the Drakh costume from the B5 S4 ep "Lines of Communication," (I have) you'll notice that they seem to have done a variation on the original mouth design. It was hard to tell if they had a double layered mask or what. I liked Gideon. He has a lot of potential. He didn't remind me of Sheriff Buck or any others one bit. Gideon is interesting so far. He just sort of knocks down some dull beauracratic doors, grabs a wildly varied crew, and proceeds on his his ass kicking tour of space. Gideon to me, seems innovative, angry, alert, and strategic all at the same time. jms seems to have taken Sheridan's strategy and Sinclair's no nonsense ways and added them into a new character. I liked Dureena. Still as feisty and fun as ever. I can't wait to see her crawling through some angry old First One's former homeground stealing stuff and outsmarting ancient booby traps at the same time. Galen: fun, funny, interesting. He's sort of a Technomage rebel I guess. And what's with all the complaints about character development? It's just the first episode and we already get a nice back story involving Galen breaking the rules to rescue Gideon from a death in outer space. It'll be neat to see what really happened with that situation. The bottom line:not perfection but it was fun and very interesting. You can't expect a TV novel to pop and fizz in your face immediately. Well, I suppose if there was a Seven of Nine character or holodeck softball game against the crew and the Drakh (shudder) you could say it was popping and fizzing. But that would actually be blowing up in a viewer's face now wouldn't it? This show is gonna grow. -
For the record, I would like to state that I am not a "Trekkie" -- nor have I ever been. In fact, I hate the Star Trek franchise in everyway. I also am really disgusted by the Emperor's New Clothes attitude of many fans here. If ya liked the show, fine. But don't go making assumptions and accusations that those of us who *didn't* care for "War Zone" are cretins, idiots, or armchair intellectuals who "just don't get it". I didn't like "War Zone". Too bad. Maybe I'll like some of the later (earlier?) episodes more. I was a staunch B5 fan and supporter who got bored during the 5th season and loathed the TNT movies save "In the Beginning". I was hoping that Crusade would be good -- I was not "lying in wait to bash it". I'm very disappointed and a little saddened. But maybe it'll get better. Then again, maybe it won't. Y'know, just because JMS did some good work in the past does not mean everything he does in the future is going to be golden. No one is 100% perfect and personally, I think the man is suffering from burn out and has been for some time. He took on too much and maybe just *maybe* he lost his touch. Oh and I meant to say in my earlier post that I thought Glenn's review was very well written, very well thought out and also very brave. I wanna know what people really think -- not read a bunch of yes men crap.
-
Yeah, I'm really desperate to defend B5/Crusade, and jms. What I posted was my opinion as an individual. I wasn't calling everyone who disliked "Warzone" a Trekkie but then again, to address the other side, people in glass houses probably shouldn't throw stones.
--Y'know, just because JMS did some good work in the past does not mean everything he does in the future is going to be golden. No one is 100% perfect and personally, I think the man is suffering from burn out and has been for some time.
You'd probably be a wee bit burnt out yourself if you spent the good part of a year struggling to make a complicated TV show while trying to keep a bunch of suits from switching all the episodes around, upside down, and adding new costumes at the same time. Not to mention the really bad crap they wanted in the show also which we now know is true.
--He took on too much and maybe just *maybe* he lost his touch.--
I don't get all this complaining about jms. No, perfect he aint, but IMHO, he can still write a great story and I think that was reflected in "Warzone," especially since it was a TNT sanctioned episode. He was still able to work around TNT's meddling somehow. I agree with you that a lot of season 5 had me screaming for more story but once those final five golden episodes rolled around, it was well worth the wait =)
--Oh and I meant to say in my earlier post that I thought Glenn's review was very well written, very well thought out and also very brave. I wanna know what people really think -- not read a bunch of yes men crap.--
What Glen did was write his own thoughtful review that covered all the areas very well. But in the end, it's his review and his own personal opinion. Likewise, most of the people here who say they like Crusade so far are telling the truth. They really do like it. In the end, that's their own opinion too. They're deciding for themselves while THEY watch. Whether or not Glen writes a review saying that he is displeased with Crusade doesn't change the fact quite a few people like Crusade so far and have decided that for themselves. In my post, I mentioned that it ISN'T perfect yet, but it's sure fun so far. I'm looking forward to the rest of the episodes and "Racing the Night" so we can see how jms himself really wanted the show to start off and not TNT. This is a TV novel. It's not going to produce a myriad whammers right away BTW. It just needs time to age a bit like B5 did.
-
...I mean, man.. a character that went around having sex with everyone would have been better than what Crusade is so far!! I'm not going to judge the entire series just by the first episode, but so far.. I'm sorry, it really sucks, and is an insult to the Babylon 5 universe. As a huge huge huge B5 fan, I'm very dissapointed, and only hope that the upcoming episodes are far better. And while I thought Evan Chen did a fine job on Call to Arms, his music for the series seemed incredibly bland and just not good... *especially* for the introduction sequence. I will tune in Wednesday for a few weeks, however, but if things don't improve, I'm going to have a very hard time watching the series for the entire length of its short run. -Dan
-
I just read a few of the above messages saying that the first season of B5 sucked.. I disagree! I loved the first season, in fact, "And the sky full of stars" is still at the very top of my favorite episodes list. "The Gathering", despite the less-than-amazing acting, hooked me on Babylon 5 from the very start. Crusade.. well, did not. -Dan
-
Jun 12, 1999 2:07:19 PM CDT
another refernece to old B5 Eps but I do not think anybody reads
by skript
Remember the first B5 eps?
Everybody said:
"Oh yes its just another Space Show, its just another DS9"
And now we say this about crusade.
The drakh are like the raiders, the "ordinri villians".
But i think JMS just wants to shock us. He wants to make a big WHAM like CRYSALLIS or COMING OF SHADOWS or so...
this is why crusade must have another season -
I have had a vision. I see it so clearly now. My purpose is clear. I am like the arrow that springs from the bow. No hesitation.
I am going to kill Evan Chen. I am going to kill him. Anyone who wishes to help would be greatly appreciated.
When I saw the opening credits, I braced myself for horrid music. It was tolerable.
Then came the battle sequence. Arghhh! It was... like..... elevator music..... or something.
I don't care who you are, or where you come from. I don't care if you are Evan Chen's wife, or his mentor who taught him everything he knows:
The music sucked!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Other than that, Crusade rules. -
Hey YOU, yeah YOU the munchkin who said the last two seasons of B5 sucked. What were you - deaf and blind? Series 4 was probably the best series of them all (maybe Season 3 edges it here) and Season 5 has been much maligned. It features some classic episodes (the long night of londo mollari - the final 5 eps). Man, I've just watched B5 back to back with someone who has never seen it and I can tell you it is STILL the best sci-fi ever shown on US television. And I'd like to add that you can't ever compare JMS to any other US writer - he wrote almost every single episode of B5 - this is NOT standard practice in the US where episode in one season of a TV series can end up being written by over a dozen people!
YESH - and give Crusade a chance, I prefer to thing that "and so it begins" was a tip of the hat to B5 fans, not a rehash of used material. Shesh. -
I liked it, and I see potential. For pete sakes, it was the first ep, and it was a pressure job by TNT. I can care about these characters. I can connect with them and the story. Am I 100% connected now? Of course not, it's the first episode!!! With time and development though, I think Crusade could offer some us some good scifi. I'm willing to hang in there and see where it goes. And personally from what I've read in the JMS interviews, I'm not interested in it being turned into a whorehouse in space or Baywatch "wrestling" its way through space either. Heck, it's better now then most of the scifi on TV as far as I'm concerned. And for those of you who hated it, pray tell, what are you watching on TV now???
-
While crusade certainly isn't perfect, there isn't exactly much good sci fi out there right now. Farscape sorta sucks ass, and, um... thats sorta it for space based Sci-Fi. Or, at least, for new stuff. Crusade is better than that, so its fine with me. Hopefully, as time goes on, crusade will get better.
-
Okay, the first episode sucked. There was no drama to it. And the score was abominable!
SOmeone break Evan chan's fingers or at least his contract before he can do more damage!
The good news is there is potential in this series. I'd probably be harsher, but this is one of the TNT episodes, as opposed to one of the JMS episodes.
It's obvious now that TNT intends to scuttle Crusade. We can hope that Babylonian can either find a home on the Sci-Fi channel or go independent again and create a great show. -
ok, i'm goin nuts here. let's talk about evan chen: for god's sake, FIRE the man, joe. can you not see that he's standing in the way of people approving of this show? you've evidently gone out of your way to construct a story that looks, acts and feels not much like B5, something new with a different approach to the way action scenes and shot setups are handled, with characters that don't remind us of those that we knew, and of course this is making people mad. you've gone and changed things, something that no one was anticipating, and when you move fast and unexpectedly around humans (much like with snakes or wild elephants), they get scared and lunge, fangs (or tusks) bared. but you could have gotten away with it, i think. eventually folks would calm down and judge the show on it's own merits, not their expectations, like they did with B5 (it's called a "pattern." happens every time.). but you blew it. you did the same thing with the music that you did with show: gave us something new. you took a gamble with chris franke a long time ago, because he dared to mix in european sounds and sensibilities along with the standard space-opera symphonic soundtrack. people bitched but they got used to it, and started to appreciate it for the unique sound it leant to B5. but evan chen people will not get used to. face it, joe, you're trying to resurrect an already killed show in america, the land of the two-note money mudslide dance to fame, not europe or asia, the lands of community sponsored and government endorsed art. the sounds of evan chen and his scores, so far, are something totally alien to american television. sure, i love it, but what do i know? i'm just a professional musician who went to college to study this stuff out of a pure love of sound and rhythm, and no better suited to judge than anyone else. it doesn't matter that everyone i've shown A Call To Arms to who knew nothing of B5 thought it (the score) was interesting and enjoyable, nor that all the musicians i've played it for are blown away by it. so, please, for the sake of the show, go on record as saying that chen is fired, history, kaput, you've pulled a sinclar on him... and watch as people become so relieved that they storm the offices of the scifi channel by the thousands to demand that they pick up crusade because it deserves a second chance, and time for people to understand it, much like B5 did, or like van gogh did, or like copernicus did. or like evan chen does. but please don't give it to him.
-brandon smith -
oh yeah.... all sarcasm aside, i'm stunned by how many people are mistaking various middle-eastern rhythms for dance music, and eastern percussion for the clanging of pots and pans. that makes me sad in the same way that dealing with the guy in the electronics dept of walmart at two a.m. does.
-brandon smith -
I enjoyed it. Not the worst hour of television I've ever watched.
And by the way the music was great, it served to couter-pont a number of scenes. Just my two cents. -
Keeping in mind that TNT caused scenes to be re-written and re-shot and the whole series was shown out of order from what JMS intended, I can see why he would not like credit for what TNT messed up. Too bad it wasn't on a Sci-Fi friendly network instead of a "wrestling" one! Can't use that formula and expect it to work for this series!
-
look what he said about Crusade at
least 2 years ago,when nobody knew
anything about the show:"It'll probably start out looking fairly conventional, as did B5 our first year, just until the suits get comfortable and start ignoring us (they're all OVER you in your first year), and then, again as with B5, we'll start getting really subversive...ah loves being subversive....
And there'll be the folks who'll say, "Oh, it's just X," just like they did with B5 in the beginning, saying "Oh, it's just like DS9," which is *perfect* because it lets me sneak up behind them and just WHACK 'em upside the head when they're not looking, as with B5"
well,isn't it true?didn't he do exactly this thing with B5?
think about it before criticising... -
I shouldn't really comment because I only half-watched the opening ep of Crusade while reading a book (which isn't a good sign in itself... ) It just did not grab my attention. I don't buy all this "Oh, it's boring now but JMS has something reeeaaaally good in store for us." As my gran'pappy used to say: "That and quarter will buy you some good pussy." (Gran'pappy was pretty old... and horny). Anyone who knows anything about narrative knows you don't put your audience through a lot of boring setup, you start with the meat and explain as you go. To which you know-nothing fanboys will probably respond "But TNT made JMS write this one." Who cares? If he's the god-like writer you say he is, he should have been able to come up with something better. This was inexcusable backstory and filler. For five years I heard from JMS that "Oh, you think you know what's going on but the next episode is going to whack you upside the head with a stinky sock." Bullshit. To be honest, I never felt as emotionally invested in B5 as I did in some Other SF Series that shall remain nameless. And basically the whole ending to the B5 "saga" was a huge disappointment. (Season five was all but unwatchable save for the occasional glimpses of T.Scoggins in her frilly underthings...) "Empire building," my fucking ass. More like "I hit the climax of the story arc halfway through last season and now I have to conjure the belly-button lint gods for inspiration." Hell, if JMS has been honest and just said, "Sorry folks but I'm tapped for ideas," I would have more respect for him; or maybe, gasp, if he had let more people write scripts (such as Gaiman's not-bad effort) and breath a little fresh air into the "this is not a franchise" franchise? And before one of you brain-dead morons comes up with the intellectually stimulating argument of "Well, if you know so much about writing, why don't you write something better?", I can write better, I do write better, I will continue to write better.
-
First of all, let me say that I've been lurking here for a while and this is the first time I've felt the need to post.
I'm a long-time B5 fan and so I'm naturally interested in Crusade. FWIW, after seeing the first episode last night (on SPACE here in Canada) I like Crusade. But that's not what drives me to post. No, what drives me to post is this simple fact: As much as I liked B5 (for it's story and scope), it truly truly sucked eggs when it came to acting. Most of the actors on B5 couldn't act their way out of a parking ticket.
This Crusade cast however ... wow! Gary Cole is a *very* gifted actor IMNSHO. It is puzzling to me why he hasn't done more with his career. But Hollywood's loss is Crusade's gain. I am very happy to finally see a 'real' actor on a B5 project. Let's face it JMS's dialog is often stilted and even amateurish. There were many scenes in B5 where Boxleitner's relative inability to act only heightened this awkwardness. Somehow though, Cole manages through sheer talent to make JMS's lines more believable. That's the sign of a truly gifted actor: His presentation adds meaning to the lines he is given. And what's even more amazing is that his supporting cast also knows how to act.
What a pleasant change! Too bad we're only gonna see this cast for 13 episodes. -
Two part post here. First part is my opinion of War Zone (short version: not bad, needed improvements). Second part is the sad story of JMS vs. TNT and What They Hath Wrought. --------- I just saw Crusade on SPACE in Canada. The opening was quieter, less orchestral than what I'm used to from B5, but it gives Crusade a distinctive atmosphere from the beginning. The writing was somewhat weak; it felt forced, which it was. Still, there was a plot, and I was engrossed enough to wonder what they would get out of the Drakh craft. Eilerson just screams "budding a-hole" - can't wait for him to get started:). SFX ranged from damn fine to iffy. The cave and high surface shots were weak, but the ground and space stuff was better. Sound should have been used in the space battles; it gave extra "power" to them. The Excalibur/Drakh fight felt thrown-in; a more extensive ground fight would have been more apropos. Chen's music was ok, even effective, until the last space battle. It was far too weak, a problem ACtA had. Overall, ok ep. I want to compare this to "Racing the Night" when that gets shown. The writing and plotting could have been stronger, and the sound work needs to be jacked up a notch. SFX were ok, and some of the surface stuff was effective. I'll watch the next three eps or so before deciding if it sucks, then I"ll watch Racing the Night to see the "original" version. --------- A poster has twice asked about the episode numbers and asked about the changes. Right now, the episode order is the "official" order, but 101 - 105 were the intended beginning of the series. "Racing the Night" (#103) was to be the opening, jumping into the story 5 months after ACtA. TNT wanted set and costume changes, more sex and violence, and a "new" opening where the characters come together. The sex and violence was supposedly dropped (although JMS claims the pressure was still there - see his War Zone comments, if you wish to believe them), but the set and costume changes took place. It's anyone's guess how many of the first seven episodes were supposed to take place "after" Racing the Night. A few people have said "No wonder TNT wanted changes". Ladies and gents, the sets and costumes aren't changed in WZ, but this and the next few eps are the *result* of TNT's changes. The opening ep probably felt forced, because it *was* forced. TNT wanted an intro episode; B5 got to introduce much of their main cast over several episodes, as one poster noted. War Zone and the next six episodes will be a result of TNT's meddling and JMS' bruised ego. The next five will be JMS "originals", done before the s*it hit the fan. I hope Joe overcame his pique for the next six, since they'll be counted along with the ones he wanted first in deciding on whether to extend the series. I'm holding my breath; B5 looked like "United Nations in space/DS9" at first, before the plot started to kick in, so I suspect Crusade will look like "StarBlazers/Wagon Train" before the arc kicks in (were it allowed to kick in). Want to know what I see coming? A larger Drakh/Earth war, seeing as the Drakh considered himself a "prisoner of war". A larger quest for Gideon; I think the cure will be found early, but something more important will come into the picture. Earth almost falling in on itself...again. And...where are the Rangers? Why do I suspect Gideon and crew may be joining the Anla'shok, for greater reasons than just "finding a cure"?
-
So its a StarBlazers rippoff? I never cared for StarBlazers, I thought it was a LOTR rippoff. I never card for LOTT, I thought is was a Jason & The Argonauts ripoff...
Anyways, I thought it was a decent start, and I can't wait for more. I noticed the upgunning of the Excalibur, and will probably get used to the music. -
First off I am a die hard B5 fanatic. I have been on other boards and have been reading what other posters have been saying. Everyone is all over the boards on this one. The main problem I have is a continuity problem with the set up. No mention of the Shadow war, no mention of Sheridan, no mention that Dureena worked with Sheridian in trying to save earth from the Drakh, no whitestar fleet although it was mentioned in ACtA that the IA and rhe whitestar fleet would be there to help in any way. The music is the least of the problems. Another poster on this board raised an important question that no one seemed to grasp is the order of the eps. I can't wait to see what will be said later on down the line.
But what really pissed me off was the poster that made the crude comment on Bruce Boxleitner's acting. Well let me tell you Bruce is the who who brought me to B5 and I stayed because of him. All through these boards people have been saying how S1 was terrible but S2 was better. That's when Bruce came on board. The scenes between Peter and Andreas were outstanding. Mira and Bill had some good scenes. Bruce and Claudia had great on screen chemistry. Bruce nd Mira were great. He had same heavy duty scenes with a wide range of emotion. I just taped In the Shadow of Zha'h'dum. Good stuff. I can't judge yet on the actors in Crusade until I have seem them in more eps. But to say the acting was bad in B5 you must be blind. It wouldn't have the following that is has and people won't watch like they did if the acting was bad. People aren't going to waste their time. Even S5 of which I'm not fond of had some every good eps
The best being the last five, the very long night of londo mollari and of couse sil. Many people on this board have made mention that the acting was wooden in Crusade. Like I said I'm not going to judge until I've seem more eps. But I'll call you on B5. Of couse some eps were crap but cast did the best that they could with the material and the fact the jms would NOT allow any changes in the dialogue. Bruce's performance in Sil absolutely put me away. Just remember people that there are real human beings attached to these characters. You can critique a show but you don't have to attack the actor. This is the only board that this seems to do this. -
Crusade's ratings are as follows
1st 15 minutes === 1.8
2nd 15 minutes === 1.8
3rd 15 minutes === 1.9
4th 15 minutes === 2.0
The show gained audience as the night wore on. So far so good.
If the show can hold an average share of 1.5 over the next few episodes that will match the best that Sci-Fi Channel has to offer. -
Westtim, where did you get those numbers? I was just wondering.. and do you know what Mortal Kombat got before Crusade? ANother general question is.. what is TNT's highest rated 1 hour or 30 min show excluding wrestling?
-
I don't care anymore what everyone says. TNT is not evil incarnate. It's just a (possibly misguided, not very good TV network) business. JMS is not the second coming either. The problem with the excuse-mongers is that they desparately want more B5 (hell, *I* want more B5... I miss my little space opera... the one that springs up and surprises you... I'll take the last half of SEASON FIVE over ANY season of whatever brand you're selling). But even the bad episodes of B5 cited here in the Talkback had their moments *and* their threads back to the core story... However, if you think I'm going to carve out time to watch a show "just in case" it improves... get real. I suffered for B5, Dr Who, Blakes7. I'm going to watch something entertaining that I ENJOY. I don't care what the ratings are. I'm going to watch Farscape instead. When JMS gets a grip on his fucking ego, then maybe he'll do something worthwhile again.
-
I think that Crusade was not bad. Remember, B5 did not take off until the second season when Sheridan arrived. At least in this show we get "Sheridan" in the very first episode with Gary Cole's very interesting captain. JMS should have the opportunity to let the show develop which wil not happen under TNT's current management.
-
Hi Berserker. Your posts are pretty much all the same whether they're here or on the TNT bulletin boards. You actually seem to defend TNT and do nothing but bash jms. In earlier months it wasn't very clear how far the blame in the Crusade game was to be spread, but now that jms has spoken out, it's clear that TNT's actions were very reprehensible and aren't really worth defending. You're just a sorry little sci fi nit picker trying to feel big by bashing jms, S5, and of all things, S4. And speaking of bashing season 4, well you must be smoking some pretty bad crack to come to that sad little conclusion. Why not just take a deep breath, keep repeating to yourself that "jms aint perfect but he isn't evil" and head back to the www.trekweb.com bulletin boards where you also frequently post. I'm sure there are incredible new discussions there about SO9, proper warp core ejection, the latest DS9 holo adventure, or Neelix's latest good will dinner.
-
It's not bad.Stronger than the
B5 first episodes.As for the FX,
well I think since this was a
last minute replacement,work on
the finished product was rushed.
And the writing?Once again,JMS had
to quickly write a new season
opener,and somehow make everyone
happy,which of sourse,no one is.I
for one found that dispite it's flaws,this opening episode was
solid and more importantly,it has
potential. -
The show rules. I want more. Fuck TNT.
-
Jun 14, 1999 7:56:56 PM CDT
RE:You still need to take a break and think for about a minute.
by flint2
--but overall it reeked, particularly the end of the Earth War, which had plot holes galore, but also the end of the Shadow War."
Sorry, but if you didn't like the concluding arcs for the Shadow/Vorlon or Earth Civil War than that's your problem. They're still jms' stories and ended with plenty of closure IMHO. I liked the end of the Shadow War. The best thing at the end of it was that the Vorlons and Shadows were as young to Lorien as the humans were to the Vorlons and Shadows. A very sweet and ironic way to end up viewing the two troublemakers. At least B5 knows how to manage its events competently unlike DS9, which was all over the map.
-It got a 1.9, half what The Gathering got."
If you did a little research you might find that a 1 or more rating is considered "good" on cable terms. It's obviously not ER money but a 1.9 enough to divert several million viewers away from the big three at a given time.
"He bashed the suits, the people funding his show."
This is where your mouth starts to wander and you start alienating people. OF COURSE he bashed the suits. He bashed them after they told him that it was their defective way or the highway. You either add a load of garbage and smut to the show or we yank it. jms rightly decided it was his way or the highway too and told them NO. You can beat around the bush about jms "whining/bashing TNT who fund the show" all you want, but in the end, he took a stand. An admirable stand against TNT's unreasonable demands. Something you conveniently fail to address each time you post. When jms took a stand, he was taking a stand for intelligent TV, something sorely lacking these days. Just because TNT funds the show, doesn't mean it's right for them to try and turn it into a trash fest in space. Well all of that sound reasoning is probably lost on your deaf ears. After all, they own the network and surely must know what's the best way to maintain a creative atmosphere, right?
"What JMS gave them was a murky mess that only people reading ihs Usenet posts could decipher. Of course TNT would be furious that JMS would be making an inaccessible show with their money. Try to see it from their perspective before accusing them of artistic murder."
Hail TNT's stupidity! Let the mouth wandering begin! BTW, artistic murder was what TNT wanted added into the show. Months ago, it wasn't too hard to imagine that the blame *could* possibly go in several directions if all the rumours then were mostly/all untrue. But like I said, now we know what TNT wanted and because of that, we know that the current TNT management has a collective IQ of about 25. Because only a bunch of people with the collective IQ of 25 would be dumb enough to try and strongarm a hardworking TV writer infamous for his intolerence of compromises on his own work from outside sources. If TNT didn't have a collective IQ of 25, they would have been smart, productive and just let jms do his job-working for THEM-like he did with S5 of Babylon 5 and all of the former seasons he competently rolled out for WB. As you can tell, most B5 fans (like me) are very entertained by jms and his decision to turn the tables on the moron moves of some typical, shortsighted, and idiotic executives who could care less about the viewing audience that wants good intelligent writing. Something Warzone already showed plenty of, as will "Racing the Night" which will probably have even more. -
I don't think it is realistic to expect something conceived as a 5 year quasi-arc to be up and running on its first ep. If one wants a roller-coaster ride or fast-food one goes to Six-Flags or to MacDonalds. TV Stories like these are just like reading a novel: it takes a while before it gets to the real meat of the tale...
Sure there were stuff there that were not very good, most specially the parts that reeked from TNT's influence. I am still uncomfortable with Chen's music, but I agree with those here that say it has improved (still I *miss* Franke). I wasn't that much bothered with the lower-echelon Drakh's masks as with their stupid black spandex aerobic outfits--I would have preferred something more organic-looking, a living, pulsing armor of some kind based on shadow-tech... The characters were not as God-awful as I had read critics say, and the FX wasn't that disastrous either. In spite of TNT's pedestrian influence, the show *has* potential. Non-sequitur: I was saddened when I heard that Harlan Ellison, without a doubt one of the best speculative fiction writers of our time, couldn't join the ride because of budget constraints.
Those of us who liked it should just sit back, relax, and experience the story as it unfolds, just like reading a book. I know I did that when I watched the Tom Baker _Dr. Who_ episodes so long ago. The FX were hideous, but the stories were so good you didn't care...as you experienced the tales even the FX began to look good in our mind's eye after a while :)...I don't expect JMS to write a Magnum Opus every week (it is not realistic) and, experienced as JMS is he is not flawless (he is good and I like his stories, but I have to admit there are others who are much better writers)...but I sincerely believe the cummulative effect will be good and, in the end, satisfying. -
How people throw around dispersions on other people's IQ's while actually believing they know what happened after hearing only one small part of the story. And a part of the story being told by someone with an agenda.
Is THAT smart?
What ever happened to "the truth is a three-edged sword?" -
Just saw the premier last night a second time by chance, flipping around and seeing it the Mortal Kombat was one I had already seen ( an enjoyably fun dumb show with lots of pretty ladies. Actually, it's pretty much what TNT wanted Crusade to be. Violence, sex, and even when there is neither violence or sex, lots of babes walking about in almos nothing.), and there, to my delight, is Crusade.
The show is good, and definately worth keeping alive. The music is cool, but uneven. I realize JMS didn't want to do the battle scene, but the way it was scored all but underscored that Gideon was all but assured a victory, stealing what could have been a nice dose of dramatic tension. And as previously mentioned, the fact that no one said anything about the ISA hurt a little.
Overall though, it kicked. I liked the characters, I like Gideon having to show some weakness to get Galen to come along, the way they are setting up that the struggle to solve the plague and deal with EA politics. It works better then most first episodes, and it makes me want to see more, and write to the powers that be to save the show.
So, flawed, yes. But worth watching and worth saving. -
How can someone say that the suits wanted the plot "exposition heavy", _and_ too much "stuff blowing up"?
Why is it okay for someone to say, "Ooh, Character X is great based on his first episode performance" but someone saying, "Ooh, Character X is lousy based on his first episode performance" is not?
To quote: "TNT note: we need to SEE Earth in turmoil, if we just hear about it nobody's going to get it." Maybe it's just me, but isn't that TV-dramatic presentation 101? As I noted earlier, is it more effective to _say_ Matheson is a telepath, or _show_ that he is a telepathic (if not by an overt display of his abilities, then by the crew reacting to his presence as a telepath?).
Note also that the above quote doesn't make much sense compared to claims that TNT wanted _more_ exposition. They want exposition, but don't want the audience to "just hear about" the riots on Earth. This makes sense...how??
As always, there are three sides to everything: the network's side, the writer's side, and the truth in-between. I've heard too many contradictions on both sides to assume either side is telling the complete truth. -
You know, I just have to say, Gary Cole deserves SOOOOOOO much better.
Oh, and in response to that person who asked why Gary Cole hasn't done more with his career - what makes you think he hasn't tried? Making a name for yourself is very, very hard. Many people who have talent never get anywhere, and many who have no talent have succeeded. It's not him. It's not his choices. It's what's available. -
Yes, we will agree that TNT has had its share of rather good TV movies, like The Day Lincoln Was Shot and that upcoming film on the CSS Hunley. The basis of its lineup, though, is wrestling and mindless action/adventure fare. Let's not kid ourselves on that score.
Kat Slokanar, the TNT/Babylonian liason, herself gave substance to the "rumors" that TNT wanted more violence and needless sexual content to "spice" up Crusade. For you to deny this in the face of what virtually was confirmation is ludicrous. Yet there you are, both here and at the TNT Crusade board, saying TNT was right to demand the changes it wanted.
For several posts now, you've been going on and on about how JMS is an egomaniac, a liar, a thief, and a poor writer for whatever reason you have to be carrying on a grudge against him. You've become somewhat infamous for your constant Babylon 5/JMS bashing. At every opportunity.
So, JMS should have just complied meekly with whatever the Suits at TNT wanted. Like the "creative" people on Deep Sleep Nine and V'ger, perhaps? The plotless, PC, idiotic mess which is both shows is the result of that policy. For proof, all anyone has to do is look at "What You Leave Behind" or just about all of V'ger through its pathetic run.
One more time: "War Zone" was the episode TNT demanded. The one which had to be shoehorned in on the schedule, written and developed with only a few weeks to do the whole thing. Further, A Call To Arms WAS the pilot for Crusade, or were you not paying attention when the premise for that whole series and the introduction of the Excalibur was set up?
Unless you can come up with a better argument than what you've presented thus far, kindly stop bringing up this evident fanboy nonsense and the pursuit of what appears to be a personal grudge against JMS which you are pursuing for whatever mysterious reasons suit you. -
"Further, A Call To Arms WAS the pilot for Crusade, or were you not paying attention when the premise for that whole series and the introduction of the Excalibur was set up?"
I think it was you who didn't pay attention. Even JMS calls "A Call to Arms" a transitional story, not a pilot. He was quite adamant and specific about it.
Bruce Boxleitner and Jerry Doyle would be very surprised to hear that "A Call to Arms" was the pilot for Crusade. That's not what they were told. -
I was not disappointed in "War Zone" a great lead in to introducing the characters, especially in light of viewers who have not seen Babylon 5. The show had me wanting to see more, know more. The music is amazing, unique, different. The music only heightened the suspense, the tension I felt. Yes, I want to see more.
-
hi Berserker.let's see how much truth,lies under your comments
"Oh, and it wasn't TNT's way or the highway. Comments from the TNT veep suggests that they wanted compromise.":they may suggested they wanted compromise but JMS was the one who did compromise.he did part of the changes they wanted in the look of the show,he changed the story to do the openning episode they wanted...the point is how far would you go Berserker,my friend, in a situation like this.how many compromises would you make in order not to do something you are ashamed of,or that would not fit with your principles.lots of people would do what they were told.shame on JMS that he didn't do it and kept his views and principles.It's his big ego we should blame,isn't it?
"JMS is SOME man of integrity when 1)he LIED about the premise of the show (he told TNt it would be a swashbuckling romp)":so you were there during the negotiations with TNT and even know exactly what JMS told them about the show?maybe you should share some of your inside knowledge with us and tell us more about it.btw how did you find it out?
"and 2)after TNT paid him to make changes he told them to stuff it, threatening to call them idiots at a press conference.":as i already said he DID the changes they paid for(sets,costumes etc).did they also pay extra money for gunfights and nude aliens hanging around?
"So pardon me if I don't sympathize with JMS":no comment-it's pretty obvious. :-)
"especialy when, having read synopses of several Crusade episodes, I'm not even remotely impressed with this "intellectual" product of his. He's a fraud and you're better off realizing it.":and that leads us to the final question.since you have these feelings for Crusade and JMS why don't you stay away from them both?
-
"War Zone" isn't a pilot, Savant. A pilot is the initial episode of a series to be produced. Generally speaking,it's the "demo" used to sell a series to the buyer (in this case, that would have been TNT)."
I agree. It wasn't. I'm well aware of what a pilot is. I was only addressing whether ACTA was the pilot. It wasn't either.
Crusade was sold to TNT without a pilot. It was announced as a series even before ACTA was filmed--at TNT's upfront presentation in early April, 1998.
I wonder if this is something TNT now regrets. -
If you have not had the chance, stop by:
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/501.html
and get JMS' take on War Zone. He actually says he's surprised at the number of people that liked the episode. Most of the complaints I've read in these postings match his complaints. I have not seen War Zone and I'm not sure if I'm going to bother. While I didn't like every B5 episode, the whole series felt more like a novel (my favorite medium) than any other tv sci-fi series. That was one of the best things about the show. It was a story not a sitcom / franchise in space (and yes I liked STNG). Very rarely do you get to see a character rise and fall like Londo. Although B5 didn't always click, when it did it was one of the best things I had seen on tv. -
...being accused of "trolling" is to laugh.
No, I did not say What You Leave Behind or DS9 was the result of *network* meddling but writing-by-committee. And if you don't think there wasn't "studio input" by Paramount to Behr and co. you're kidding yourself. Or was it merely coincidence that we get Vic Fontaine and the holographic casino at about the same time that Paramount opens up a Las Vegas Star Trek casino attraction?
As for V'ger, that IS network property, or are you going to deny that UPN is a network? Either way, that show is also writing-by-committee and the results have been as muddled as can be.
Either try giving us a real argument, or don't bother. Childish insults aren't going to impress me either except to inspire me to take you less seriously.
Tonight, we have "The Long Road" up and this one was one of the planned episodes, so its success or failure rides entirely on its own merit. Let's see how it bears up to the test. -
I don't know who this rube is but he didn't have balls to post his reply on the forum, instead sending a cowardly little missive to my e-mail. Guess this is the level of discourse I should expect... I shan't point out the obvious "shortcomings" in his manhood. I'll let the reader decide. : )
>
A brilliant summation of my post!! It had wit, brevity, and most of all, profanity! Who could helped be swayed by the words of this mental giant? When I wrote back and said that he was basically A) an idiot, and B) a coward, his reply was...
>
So the little scamp apparently is also C) a drunk who can't control what he says/writes when he's had a couple beers D) foolish enough to think anyone would want a debate with such a slug. I like a heated argument as much as the next fellow but I really don't think we need this kind of idiot around here.
-
I can't believe everyone is dissing this episode so badly! OK, it's not up to what B5 was after they got their landlegs ... it's still a helluva lot better than the original version of The Gathering.
And would y'all quit with the "this music sucks" stuff? Chen's music is very different from Franke's, to be sure, and I've loved Franke since Tangerine Dream in the early '70's. Chen's music is raw and powerful, blurring the lines between conventional music, sound effects and noise. I think it grates on my nerves at exactly the point where it's supposed to, and soothes with its mysterious and vaguely oriental textures where it's supposed to. I'm amazed that a group of people (you!) who are so demanding of new and experimental story lines should be so parochial when it comes to new and experimental musical styles. I give JMS 3 cheers for using Chen's music. Wanna bet it grows on you after awhile?
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