Hey everyone. Capone in Chicago here. I had the distinct pleasure recently of talking to not only an accomplished actor, but also one of the three men (along with Gary Sinise and Jeff Perry) who founded the Steppenwolf Theatre company here in Chicago. I'll let Terry explain later how Steppenwolf (and other companies birthed in Chicago during the early 1970s) changed the face of theater in Chicago and the nation. I love talking to these veteran theater guys, and Kinney was at the forefront, directing some award-winning plays, starring in some truly groundbreaking productions, and making the transition to TV and movie. For many of you, Kinney is best known as Tim McManus, the supervisor of the special ward on prisoners on HBO's series "Oz."

Kinney's latest effort is the first production from Steppenwolf Films entitled DIMINISHED CAPACITY, which marks Kinney's debut as a feature director. The film stars Matthew Broderick, Alan Alda, and Virginia Madsen, and it's shot in and around the Windy City. I didn't realize until I started my research that I'd seen some of Kinney's work in my formative years. We talk about those works, the film, and many other wonderful things. I had a great time doing this interview. Hope you like it…


Capone: Obviously, I know who you are as an actor and as a major contributor to the Chicago theater scene. I didn’t grow up here, but I love talking to guys who were here in the 70s in theater. I love the stories. But I grew up in D.C., and the very first professional play I ever saw was at the Kennedy Center, “Streamers.” And, I didn’t realize that you had directed that. I went with a friend who’s parents were much more theater-savvy than I was. I seem to remember it being free, as well.


Terry Kinney: It was, yeah, it was free, because Peter Sellars--that Peter Sellars [legendary theater director and creative director]--was trying to sort of start the whole proletariat theater movement back then--theater for the people. And, he brought us in because of it, and let us do crazy shit at the Kennedy Center. The other play we did was “Coyote Ugly.” I don’t know if you saw that.


Capone: I’ve read it, yes. But I didn’t see it there.


TK: It’s an amazing, ridiculous, inbreeding play. And, the fact that we got to do it there, we thought it was funny. And, “Streamers,” I had a military guy on the opening night…you know, when Gary [Sinise] threw up the [mimics spitting]…blood.


Capone: That’s what I was going to tell you. I was in the second row. Gary dropped to his knees right in front of me and just spat that blood out. And, that’s the first play I ever saw! I will never forget that. I didn’t know who he was, but I’ve never forgotten his face from that day forward because he threw up blood at my feet.


TK: And slowly died in front of you, while the scene continued.


Capone: That’s right.


TK: Yeah, I had a military guy, full dress, he was in full dress, and he stood up like he was standing at attention. And, I’m like, What the hell is going on, what’s he standing up for? He was standing right next to Gary, and he turned toward the audience, looked at someone that he was with, and then ‘Boom’, went down.


Capone: Oh, he fainted.


TK: Fainted.


Capone: I had to look away at that point. Another guy I was with had to literally put his head between his knees, because he thought he was going to pass out. I’m glad to know I wasn’t the only wimp in the audience…


TK: No, that was a bloody play.


Capone: It was. And, I realized the power of theater when I saw [Robert] Altman’s film after, and it didn’t have the nearly the same effect on me. And, then, I also saw, maybe 10 years ago…of course, none of these remembrances are actually at the Steppenwolf Theatre here. But, when WFMT did those radio plays, and Steppenwolf reunited the cast of “Orphans” with John Mahoney, Kevin Anderson, and you. I remember that specifically, because at the end, when the director was doing ‘pickups’, he wanted to do something in that last yelling and screaming part, and you all are, like, “We can’t do that again.”


TK: Yeah…“Could you just cry again?” It was, like, "Go away." [laughs]


Capone: And, if you listen to the tape, he’s, like, “Okay, we got it, never mind, we got it.” But, I remember it was you leading the charge on that: “We’re not going to do that again.”


TK: Yeah, that was ridiculous. I didn’t have it in me anymore.


Capone: I take that back…I did see “Clockwork Orange” at Steppenwolf, and I didn’t realize that you had directed that until I started looking up all the different things that you had done.

So now, we’ll talk about the movie [DIMINISHED CAPACITY], ‘cause there’s lots of good stuff. Steppenwolf Films, is that new?


TK: Yes. Well, I mean, it’s not new. We’ve been around for coming up on three years, but we developed about six, seven properties. And, this was one of them. We always felt like this might be our first, our flagship film.


Capone: So, this is the first one under that umbrella.


TK: Yeah. We want to make a lot more, but what we have to do is rally the fund-raising community here the in the city of Chicago to make homegrown films and not depend on the Hollywood system, because a lot of people are making independent films with, like, two, three investors, and making $2–$3 million dollars films, one after another, and that market is still very alive. But, nobody’s doing it here. And so, we’re hoping to get our foot in the door that way. And, we also hope to become a house where other independent filmmakers can come and bring their stuff and get it made through us.


Capone: Right. How long ago did you shoot it? When were you here?


TK: Well, we just shot last year.


Capone: So, it’s not something that’s been sitting around. You actually got this thing turned around fairly quick.


TK: Remarkably fast for an independent film. The first film I ever tried to get made I worked on for 10 years. And, in the eleventh hour, didn’t get it made. So, the fact that this got made at all was a miracle. But, this is what Plum Pictures does. They do $2 million films, one after another, four at a time, and they’ve got two or three guys that fund them. I think they do really well with that formula.


Capone: I was just at a panel discussion yesterday about getting independent films distributed, and the consensus seemed to be that there’s an over-saturation of independent films. And, a lot of them, even some good ones, don’t ever get out. So, the fact that you’re able to get this out beats the odds.


TK: That’s true…that we sold at all. We were at Sundance, and the opening night with 1,300 seats, and I was shaking like a wet cat. We did the Q&A, and, like, half the audience stood up and screamed. And, I was, like, ‘Omigod, this is great! We’re going to sell this thing.” NO, I mean, Nothing, Zero, Silence…for the rest of the festival. So, about four days after the festival, three or four companies reared their head. But, there’s a new formula for buying films: you don’t get your money back. And, part of the reason is that Plum Pictures did something called GRACE IS GONE. That was at the previous festival.


Capone: I remember it.


TK: …and also DEDICATION, same festival. Same night, two different sales, massive bucks. Both films tanked. So, here I was with Plum Pictures again, and I realized it’s not just a backlash against the philosophy of buying at a high price. They’re the guinea pig; I’m with the guinea pig. So, I got really nervous that we wouldn’t sell at all, but we did…I mean, IFC Films. It couldn’t have been a greater thing for me, because I know some of those people. And, I like their formula. I like that it goes out on pay-per-view simultaneously with the theatrical release.


Capone: Yeah, right. The IFC FirstTake program they have is really fun, and they play great movies on it, too.


TK: And, you get out to the red states.


Capone: I'm sorry to begin this interview talking about business at the very beginning of this interview, because this is a very emotional film, but…


TK: Well, thank you for saying that. But, I don’t mind talking about that side, because I think independent film is struggling, and it needs to stick around.


Capone: Of course. I’m sure this has come up before, but do you feel that the timing--all the Cubs discussions in here--the timing is a little off this year?


TK: You mean the fact that they’re doing well? And, the fact that there’s a history of their losing in the film. I don’t want to say they lose. Well, it will either be an historical fact of our last 100 years of pain, or it will document the Cubs as we know them. I think it’s not going to portend anything. I don’t think the timing has anything to do with anything. That’s a back story, and it really is about last year. It’s not about this year.


Capone: It’s not like the memories aren’t fresh and well earned. Dylan Baker’s rant is one of the best things in the movie. He’s so hilarious, it’s great.


TK: We wrote that out of our own pain, Sherwood [Kiraly] and I really worked hard on that section, because we, you know…speaking for my father.


Capone: Did the idea ever come up of having Matthew Broderick, who is in one of the iconic Chicago films [FERRIS BUELLER'S DAY OFF], back here again?


TK: I never thought about it once, really. When I read the book, I kept picturing Matthew, because of his…his face. I mean, to me, he always looks sort of like a deer in the headlights. He looks like he’s got a problem concentrating. That’s what I was looking for, and I know him a little bit as well, and I just thought that his gentleness would be good for this. So, I never thought of FERRIS BUELLER once.


Capone: Did anyone think of it during the production?


TK: While we were here…[mimics fans, high-pitched yell] “BUELLER!”


Capone: I wish I had seen you guys here. I would just have loved to have seen him, even on Michigan Avenue.


TK: It was really, really funny when people would come up and talk about it with him, because he has next to zero tolerance for it. And, he kept telling people, “It was 20 years ago. I’m 20 years older. Look at me.” It’s true.


Capone: Alan Alda wouldn’t necessarily seem like the obvious choice for this part, because a lot of what he’s done lately has been more authority figures, CEOs, senators…


TK: Isn’t it amazing? His transformation was so utter and complete. I met him, and he was starting at this lunch to be a little more rural, be a little more like Rollie, and I could see that this was a guy that wanted me to believe that he could do this, because I had said, very loudly--and I’m sure it got back to him--“I think he’s sort of urban, and I think he’s kind of a legend, so his iconic nature is not going to really lend toward this role. Thanks anyway.” And then, they said, “Just have lunch, just have lunch.” And, I would have been an idiot not to, because that guy…I mean, I’ve never seen anybody work harder and stay in character more completely on a set. He never left the set.


Capone: Even just the look, the facial hair, even his own hair is a little different. Put him in a flannel shirt, and he sells it.


TK: He was an acting lesson for all of us. He led the charge, and nobody pretended like he wasn’t. We were all just, Omigod, what’s he doing now?


Capone: You have directed so much theater and even some TV. Is film somewhere you’ve always wanted to go, or was that more of a convenience issue?


TK: No, no, it’s very inconvenient to do films. When we first founded the company, Gary and Jeff [Perry] and I founded the theater based upon coming out of watching WOMAN UNDER THE INFLUENCE. And, we had seen SCARECROW--you remember that film?--a few weeks before that. And, we were talking about starting a theater, but we were trying to find a mission statement, you know. And we kept saying, “But, how do you transpose what we just watched into a mission statement, because that’s what we want to do for theater. We want to break down the fourth wall and make people feel they’re really in danger, that this is not acting anymore. There’s a line that gets crossed.” And, we found it most often in those films of Cassavetes.


Capone: I actually was going to ask you about the theater company’s mission statement. I’ve talked to some of David Mamet’s group and some of Stuart Gordon’s Organic Theater people, but I don’t think I’ve ever had the opportunity to meet any of the Steppenwolf ensemble. What was the theater scene, as a whole, like at that time? Was it competitive, or was it collaborative? And, what was the Steppenwolf mission statement?


TK: Gary and Jeff and I have strangely, oddly similar taste. We’re very different people. The three of us couldn’t be more polar opposite as human beings to each other, but throughout our entire history, the three of us have always agreed on everything we watch, on everything we do. And, with the rest of the company, there’s a very similar ethic in terms of what we believe is good stage work.

It’s very brave. It’s a little bit insane. It seems realer than other stuff, at least to us. But, it’s what I like to call “operatic naturalism.” It’s very real, but it’s not small. Sometimes, people mistake the two things. And, you see a lot of young actors, now especially--not to complain about young actors, because they make great film actors, because they’ve been on camera since they were born--but they’re very, very quiet, very subtle. They’ve never projected a word in their life. And, we like to go big. Laurie Metcalf is the queen of that. We learned from her. [Laughs]

But, yeah, that was similar in the 70s, watching Cassavetes and those guys in the bathroom scene of HUSBANDS. I mean, that was insane filmmaking. He just lopped off a camera in the bathroom, and they ran out of magazine, obviously. And, there wasn’t any cutting, and I thought, Well, how do you do that? How do you do that on film and sustain the audience, because it’s sort of like doing theater.


Capone: Did the three of you really have time, trying to get this theater off the ground and running it, did you have time to be students of film?


TK: We went to films all the time. We didn’t go to other theater; that was our dirty secret. When we did, we would go as a group, and we would be incredibly disruptive, and we realized…We were so cocky, I mean, now when people make fun of Steppenwolf and make fun of me, you know, being an old man, etc., when I hear that I’m comforted by it, in a way, because we were the worst. We didn’t respect other theater as much as we should have or could have. But, we went to a lot of films.


Capone: Okay. Besides Cassavetes, what films do you remember captivating you?


TK: Well, like I said, I remember when I took Gary to…I had seen SCARECROW over and over, and it wasn’t the story, I mean, the story was sort of predictable. It was kind of naïve, in a way. But, Gene Hackman and Al Pacino together were so remarkable. I hadn’t seen a film like that. And, it was gone, you couldn’t find it. And I was trying to tell Gary about it, and we found it at a drive-in movie theater. I took him to the drive-in, and I remember we were in two different cars, and he got out of his car, and he was weeping. And, he said, “That’s what we want to do, that’s what we want to do. That’s it. You’re right.” So, yeah, that film. There were several. There were so many in the 70s that were just so key.


Capone: SCARECROW always kind of reminded me, like, if Steinbeck had written an original film, that might have been something he would have done.


TK: Absolutely.


Capone: Obviously, you have history with Steinbeck material. Yeah, actually, probably the second play I ever saw…I lived in New York for a couple of years, and I did see “Grapes of Wrath” there. And, that time I sought it out, because “These guys are from Chicago" and I was more familiar with your work in the theater. And then, when you won the Tony for best play, I couldn’t believe it. And you were nominated for a Tony for that.


TK: Yeah, it was amazing, because it was, like, two years of our lives, you know, so we were pleased to be somewhat ‘recognized’, as bullshitty as the word is.


Capone: And, congratulations on the new Tony! [five 2008 Tonys for “August: Osage County”]


TK: Just as I said ‘bullshit’…But, not for that! I’m really pleased. [Playwright] Tracy Letts deserves all the praise he can get, I mean, all of them do, but he’s an amazing writer.


Capone: Yeah. First of all, I should say, it was great seeing Jeff Perry in the movie. He’s one of those great guys who’s become this character actor face that I see everywhere and love spotting on “Lost” or wherever.


TK: He really gets around out there. He does guest spots on so many things, I can never keep up with it.


Capone: When you presented the script to some of the actors, what were some of the things in it that you really wanted them to focus on, some of the themes in the film.


TK: Well, in terms of giving it to the actors, it was always about the individual. There’s such a potpourri of characters in this. That’s what I love about it. And, when you mention Altman, that was one of the reasons I wanted to do a movie like this, because it was multiple characters, all interacting, all speaking at once, all with different afflictions.

It’s sort of like the yellow brick road, in a way, you know, it’s like “Can I come along?” They’re all on this quest to be saved: “I want to stay out of assisted living.” -- “I want to be the man I was.” -- “I want to sell my art and be worth something.” -- “I’m a drunk. Can I come along?” -- “I’m a former bully.”

So, the fact that they were all such peripherals was attractive to me. And, we talked about that a lot. But, overall, I just wanted people to understand that we were making a movie about choosing your own ending in life, being the arbiter of your own destiny. I just love that theme in general.


Capone: There’s the idea of somehow capturing your own dignity in the face of either an illness or just life’s general indignities in your day-to-day affairs, like Broderick at work, or Virginia Madsen in her failed marriage.


TK: The last thing you should do if you’re about to lose your mental capacity for the rest of your life…This guy is saying, “The last thing I want to do is sit down, or stay home. I want to do something.”


Capone: I did want to ask you one “Oz” question, because I watched every episode of that show, loved it. Yet, strangely, I don’t remember any of the story lines. I just remember the characters and actors. Those are faces that I see all over the place. What do you think the world was supposed to take away from that show, other than just some of the crazy shit?


TK: Conceptually, when I directed it, we talked tone and concept, etc.…and, really, [creator] Tom [Fontana], who is someone that I continue to work with, and am trying to develop stuff with him, he has a very religious bent. He is a fallen-away Catholic with a great deal of devotion to what he’s fallen away from. And, “Oz” was very biblical for me. And, the fact that everybody was divided into tribes, and that they were never, ever…The experiment was to get samples of each. There are four homeboys, four Aryans, four transvestites, four Latinos, and four Muslims. And, let’s see if we can create our own society. We’ll put glass fronts on it, and everybody gets watched, but there’s an honor system. Nobody’s locked in until they violate this mini-society. Well, of course, it falls apart immediately, because he’s saying, “It’s not going to happen. Those factions are not going to get along, especially if you lock them up in some faux paradise.”


Capone: And don't give them an escape.


TK: Exactly.


Capone: I remember there were a couple seasons there where it seemed like every single cast member was landing on one of the “Law & Order” shows, usually "SVU [Special Victims Unit]", and I assumed that was Chris Meloni’s doing. I thought there was some sort of contractual obligation that if you joined the cast of “Oz” you had to go on to one of the “Law & Order.”


TK: [laughs] You know, the funny thing was I avoided that show for 18 years.


Capone: You were just on one of them.


TK: Just now. It’s the first one I had ever done. And, the strike was coming. And, I said [in a lilting voice], “Ahhh, that’s sweet they would offer that to me, uhh, okaay.” But, I had never done one, I had never directed one. We had talked about it. I had turned down, I think, 13 or 14 of them before that, because I just didn’t want to do it. But, after I did it, I was really glad I did.


Capone: I guess they would be looking for some of the same types of actors.


TK: Well, Tom and [L&O creator] Dick Wolf are very good friends, I think. Also, we were an ensemble of actors, and everybody sort of fit in. And, “Law & Order” is that kind of mentality, people that will sort of fold into a group.


Capone: But, you did show up on Gary’s show ["CSI: New York"] in its early years.


TK: Yeah, Gary and I, whenever we get the chance to hang out…and Gary had that advantage there…When they hired him to do the show, he said, “Hey, how about my buddy, how about my buddy?”

But the funny thing was, that character, there was no need for a district attorney of any kind on that show. And, they realized it from the outset, and the main guy, Anthony Zuiker?…anyway, he said to me, “I don’t know where we’re going with this, because there shouldn’t be a D.A.” And, I realized that it was going to be short-lived.


Capone: This is sort of where I was going earlier with the theater discussion. I love it that David Mamet, when he makes a film, still pulls from some of the guys he worked with here—William Macy and some of those guys. And, Stuart Gordon still works with some of his people--Dennis Farina, Joe Mantenga, George Wentz. And, you and Gary and Jeff are always mixing it up. I love that sort of ferocious loyalty, the friendships that endure.


TK: It pays off, I mean, in every possible way. We’ve been there for each other in a lot of really lean times and good times. But, there’s that resurgence of creativity, like, not only at our theater right now--a big one in our theater--but also in this town. The legacy of Stuart Gordon and David Mamet and the St. Nicholas group and our early stuff is that people come here knowing that they can do theater with their companions, with the people they care about the most, and that this city embraces that kind of thinking. I think that’s pretty amazing. Can’t do that in New York.


Capone: When are you guys going to show up in movies together? I remember seeing MILES FROM HOME, and seeing all the Steppenwolf guys in that movie.


TK: Yeah, we have a lot of loyalty toward each other, but it’s not just blind loyalty either. I mean, Jeff was just so right for the part in that movie, and I would have cast him in five different roles, really.


Capone: I remember William H. Macy told me, when he was talking about all the theater companies, he said there was a lot of "cross-pollination." And, he wasn’t just talking about professionally either. He said, “Everybody was in bed with everybody else.”


TK: That’s true.


Capone: Do you remember it?


TK: Well, yeah, that was true, especially when we first started, you know, because we didn’t know anybody else. That was the sad part. [laughs] Here we were in Highland Park, where everyone was either married or in high school, literally. We were post-college grads in a group with each other, and what’s going to happen? If you’re single, you’re going to look toward the group. And, someone would break up, and someone would get together with that person right away. Hilarious.


Capone: Do have any immediate plans to come back and direct at Steppenwolf?


TK: I don’t have immediate plans. I have to find a play to do, and they program very far in advance. That’s a hard thing to do when you don’t live in Chicago. But, I hope to come back soon, and act as well, hopefully.


Capone: Actors strike notwithstanding, what do you have coming up in the near future?


TK: Well, I’m filming right now--I have to go back to work tomorrow--a pilot for ABC.


Capone: Is that “The Unusuals”? I wasn’t sure if that was a movie or a pilot.


TK: It’s a pilot, and it’s really good. It’s really good, and, hopefully, that’ll get picked up. I have a play running in New York that is going to close next weekend, and then we’re going to do it on Broadway next winter.


Capone: Something you directed?


TK: Yeah, a Neil LaBute play. It’s called “Reasons to be Pretty.”


Capone: Is that your first LaBute collaboration?


TK: Yeah, it is.


Capone: How was that?


TK: Oh, he’s fantastic. He’s really collegial. And he’s a guy that when you say, “This isn’t working,” he’ll say, “Cut it. Do you want me to cut it?” And, I’d say, “Yeah, obviously, I don’t want to cut your material.” And, he’d say, “I don’t care. Go ahead and do it, and then show it to me. And, we’ll figure it out.” I would slice it up and run it, say ‘Well, that seems to work’, and I’d send it to him. He’d say, “Did that work for you? Okay, great.” He’s not precious at all about his stuff.


Capone: Not protective of his work?


TK: No…and maybe he is usually, but he was in London directing his own version of “Fat Pig,” so he was a little busy.


Capone: Terry, thanks so much for talking shop with me and being so indulgent.


TK: Not a problem. Thanks a lot.


Capone
capone@aintitcoolmail.com