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Reader reaction: "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" series finale !!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Glen here...
THIS PAGE IS RESERVED FOR "TALKBACKS" ABOUT THE SERIES FINALE OF
STAR TREK: DEEP SPACE NINE !!!
Please feel free to post your thoughts, comments, likes, dislikes, creative input, etc. about the
conclusion of this long-running series, which ended the week of May 30, 1999.
Just scroll down to the "Talkback" icon below, click, and get started!
A few parameters:
*Please* be aware that I will be monitoring the "talkbacks", and the deletion of a post could be a
mouse-click away. Let’s be civil and responsible. Swearing is fine, but not at each other - and not
about others. Say whatever you think, but always respect other people’s opinions and rights to
disagree. Other than that, the sky’s the limit. This is your chance to review (and talk about) a big new
show with other viewers & Coaxial readers as your peers. Have fun with it. Learn from it. And,
ENJOY!!!
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DS9 was clearly the best series of all the incarnations of Trek; the best characterizations, the best stories, the best effects, by a damn sight better than TOS, TAS, TNG, or VOY. But what a waste of time the final episode was; two hours that could easily have been compressed into a single hour. The big space battle wasn't just unclimactic, it was anticlimactic. The end of the Sisko/Dukat conflict was boring. And there were times I couldn't help but MST-ise the show -- when Ben felt the Pagh Wraiths escape and Kasidy asks him what's wrong, you can't help but shout "I FEEL A GREAT DISTURBANCE IN THE FORCE!". Gahhhh. There was some genuine emtion in many of the episodes of this final series, just as there was real emotion in B5's "Sleeping in Light" and TNG's "All Good Things". DS9's finale just left me cold, laughing at the absurdity of it all. At least it looks like Colm Meaney, the best actor ever to work on Trek, is likely to get a part in the next Trek series; that'll be something to look forward to, considering how wasted his talents were during the latter half of this season.
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I can't believe its over. What will they do now? Voyager is good but its not enough to keep me satisfied Trekwise. Good finale though. The whole thing with Odo leaving Kira was a mistake, almost as big a mistake as killing Jadzeea.
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If the Chief were to be featured in the next Trek series, then all modern Trek could be labled as "Star Trek: The Adventures of Miles O'Brien". Of course, in order for Voyager to fit into this, O'Brien would have to turn out to be the Caretaker. Or a Q. :-) SJC
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I viewed the DS9 finale a few hours ago and I must say I really did like it. My only complaint was that the episode just felt so rushed at times. A good analogy would be if JMS had taken the last 5 epsiodes of B5 and compressed them into a single 2 hour episode. Even still, it was very touching at times. Flashbacks, which normally do nothing for me, were used effectively, and I found the goodbyes touching. I also liked the final scene of Jake and Kira standing together on the promenade watching the wormhole. The battle scenes weren't as good as I had hoped, if nothing else but for the fact a great deal of the FX were culled form Generations and the DS9 episode "Sacrifice of Angels." As far as comparisons to other finales, it was definitely better than the TNG finale because this one provided a lot of closure. I think with this series over and Voyager nearing the end of its run, it would be a good idea to set the next series anywhere from 20 to 100 years in the future and have it deal with some of the aftereffects of the war. All in all, 9.5 out of 10.
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Was it just me or was just about any reference to Jadzia(i know im spelling poorly right now...its late.) noticably absent? i mean, it almost looks like they were so ticked at her leaving that they decided to pretend she never even existed in the show, what with noone really having any real "memories" of her at the end... hmm..
otherwise, while it was a fun episode to watch, there wasent as much coherence to it as there was in ST:TNG finale. and i am still surprised that the good guys could win the war, i mean, they went from being outnumbered 20 to 1 and without scoring any major victorys (that they mentioned) suddenly they have the abbility to destroy the Dominion forces. even with Cardasian help it seemed.....dificult to grasp...
so, in conclusion, it was a fun episode to watch, though like all else in the world, it had its prolblems..
Mark -
After witnessing DS9 I can now safely say that Sisko is basically Valen, the Bajoraans are basically the Minbari, and the struggle between the good wormhole aliens and the Pagh Wraiths was basically Rick Berman's way of also emulating and imitating the battle between the Shadows and the Vorlons/battles between ancient races for the sake of Trek. Gene Roddenberry must be spinning in his grave right now. Rick Berman made a Trek series primarily about religion, made an artificial lounge singer one of its main characters, and did some cheap imitating of another series to boot. Good bye and good riddance DS9. Bring on the new series. Hopefully it'll be about the old days of the Federation when things were still fun and hopefully Berman will have ab-so-lute-ly nothing to do with it. No musical numbers either please. I didn't like Terry Farrel's snubbing either. Very immature and unprofessional. All the best to her.
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Disappointing....a definate letdown. They spend 8 weeks building to this?
I think after I win the one of greatest victories in Federation, Klingon, or Romulan history.....I'll celebrate with a bunch of holograms and some 400 year old music. UGH! Pass the bloodwine and let's party. -
Maddog says Voyager is nearing the end of it's run. Is this true? Maybe there really is a god afterall....
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After seven seasons of love, life, and death in deep space, I must first congratulate Ira Behr and Co. for bringing us the most textured and interesting entry in the Star Trek saga in its 33-year history. With DS9, we finally got three-dimensional characters, political and religious allegories that weren't half-hearted attempts at personal agendas, and hints that everyone - even the squeaky clean Starfleet boy scouts - have their dark secrets. THIS was television storytelling for Clinton's 90's and if you didn't follow closely, you missed the BEST sci-fi on television. But still after all of that, there were several disappointing moments in DS9's swan song "What You Leave Behind". The problems, of course, had nothing to do with character development as DS9 has been mostly flawless in this area. What was missing in the end to me were a sense of the stakes involved to our people. For instance, the Federation Alliance has the Dominion on the run for the whole episode and we almost feel sorry for the Dominion. Sympathy for the bad guys is refreshing in sci-fi these days, but the problem is that the threat to our people never seems that urgent. I got the feeling that "hey, why do we need to invade Cardassia NOW?" We've held off for two years. What's the hurry? Couldn't there have been some sort of threat to Earth or to the station? There was a vague inference that the urgency was necessary to save the Cardassian people themselves, but that was never fully realized. A demonstration (such as a CGI shot of the Jem Hadar "reducing Lakarian City to ashes" would have shown us the threat the Dominion posed. And I guess this was the problem I had with much of WYLB: that the producers pulled their punches. SHOW the nuking of Cardassia. SHOW Mila getting aced. SHOW more NEW FOOTAGE of the brutal space combat during the attack. And SHOW the sprawling Dominion armada orbiting Cardassia Prime making its final stand (a`la the Alamo). Like I said, we did get some great endings and new beginnings for our heroes. Damar's death was inspiring. Weyoun's was tragic and even touching after the Female Shapeshifter finally shares her true feelings towards him. Sisko's disappearance was appropriately mysterious, and Odo's journey came full circle from his humble beginnings. All in all, it was a joy to realize that these characters have changed the universe and that the universe has changed them. Where WYLB fell flat in grand conflict, it made up for in small, tender moments. I'll watch it again and again and probably get just as misty-eyed as I did the first time. Even its quirks were endearing and that's what made DS9 shine brighter than any other star in the Trek universe. Salud, Niners!
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DS9 was the best Trek show so far because it broke free of Roddenberry's influence, i.e. DS9 recognized that there are absolute definitions of Good and Evil. The rest of Trek is cheesy FX, techno-babble and moral relativism. But on DS9, the characters understand that there is such a thing as morality, and either attempt to embrace it or reject it as best they could as individuals. Of course there are cultural differences about how to express this morality, e.g. Sisko and Ross refusing to drink on Cardassia. However, this struggle for individual morality transformed Worf from an orphan who has a hard time socializing (TNG) to a Good Man who must overcome his own self-doubt to do what is what for his people (DS9). DS9 will stand as the best of Trek because the characters dealt with the most difficult issues. I know that TOS and some of TNG also addressed difficult issues, but Kirk and Picard etc., simply knew what the politically correct answer was and would preach to those poor stupid unenlightened aliens. On DS9, individuals had to face the grey areas in morality and then trust themselves to chose wisely. The finale could have been better, but than again I said the same thing about Sleeping in Light.
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Over all I have to say that I enjoyed the final episode of DS9!
Sure, this episode was presented like so many other Star Trek episodes where they simply take a large amount of events and cram it down your throat without allowing these grand events to play out like the should have. I like to call it force-fed drama.
But, since I have watched this series from the beginning, and I do think that it is the best of any Trek series, I was not disapointed by the way it ended.
The flash backs were nice, wow! has Kira gone from a man like woman with large shoulder pads to a totally boinkable woman or what!?
Also, I was sure from day one that Odo would end up selling everyone out, I'm glad I was wrong.
The only complaint that I have is the overall pace of this series, and all the others really. They need to kick back a little, take their time and stop forcing entire story lines down our throats in 40 minutes.
Long live "The Visitor", the best Trek show EVER! -
Star Trek is a franchise on the wane. I said it. All you raving Trekkers out there can camp out on my front door in your grubby homemade uniforms and plastic faux weaponry and berate me at your leisure, but you know I'm right. The last Trek movie, while enjoyable, was merely a big episode, certainly not up to the level they set with First Contact, a movie even a non-fan could love. Voyager has become the 7 of 9 show, making that character the star and, gee, I wonder why. I avoided DS9 because the first couple of seasons seemed really, uh, Trek-ish. It was a show that reveled in it's diversity metaphors and, really, I had just about enough of that with all the previous incarnations. So I stopped watching. Now everyone is talking about this big renaissance on the series (perfect, cause the show is fish now) but I have to wonder if it's the voice of the casual viewer not caught up in the cultish mythos of the franchise or if that's exactly what it is.
Our local station runs the show tomorrow night so I'll form my own opinion then, but on the whole, this series (of series, as it were) needs a break, not another entry. Would Berman andcrew please back the heck off and let it rest so that maybe, some day, folks might be interested again... or at least incorporate ds9 characters into the next Generation movie so they have an opportunity to really USE the new dimensions / budget / freedoms of the movies as opposed to TV.
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A rather lame conclusion to a great series. There was about an hour and a quarter of real material here and the rest was filler.
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I was sorely dismayed at the shoddy treatment of the DS9 characters in the mishmash episode shown last night. They were no longer characters but caricatures of the stereotypes they set out to destroy through their bold "diversity." "Isnt it ironic" that the show couldnt shake the whole race issue after playing it up and shaking it down in a plentitude of episodes. They could have forsaken the issue and moved on and given a better farewell. I think they had made their statements, this episode just drove it further down my throat.
I had the utmost respect for Captain Sisko and his ways, for he was truly the best captain of all. To see his character go out in a blaze of wussness was truly a shame. This man should have become head of Starfleet Command or even Federation president. I could say that about Picard, but he is still an enigma, his character not as flushed out as Sisko's. Sisko was a man, first and foremost, then he was a leader.
This episode also proved to me that the writers of DS9 did not respect the intelligence of its viewers as TNG did. Moreover, it makes invisible claims of being a "layman's" show. Did they have to explain the irony of each situation. (The Bajoran savior of the Cardassians, etc.) Damn, I felt as if I was in high school lit again.
The series had plenty of moments of greatness, but in its drive to suit the marketers and attract new viewers, they sold out to the lowest common denominator.
Cheers to what could have been...
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Although I could rant for hours about our local stations decision to show the DS9 finale in 2 parts over 8 days, I will alieve, somewhat, the fears of the earlier post.
By showing "What You Leave Behind" in 2 parts, WGN insults (for the last time) all the loyal Chicago DS9 fans, again.
But, nothing will be cut. The episode is designed in 2 parts so it can join in the rerun cycle other cities (like Portland, OR, where I was for the last month) get to enjoy.
So, if you want to make DS9 last another week, come to Chicago!
Okay, so WGN airs part 1 on Saturday at 4:00 PM. This should run on time since the Cubs do not play until later that night.
As for part 2, I do not know, lets us hope we can get that one in full since WGN is not always inclined to show DS9 in its entireity if the sports events go long.
A POX Upon WGN for splitting the finale. It is an insult.
P.S. I have e-mailed WGN several times over the last 7 years over their treatment of DS9. I have always been professional (no swearing) in my posts. The number of replies recieved: 0.
Cowards. -
DS9 has always been a show that could never settle down and stay with a true story arc. There was the War, the Prophets, the station it's self and of course the new frontier/Gamma Quadrent. In the beginings of Warf's run on the series I thought to myself "Great! Here is a chance for the writers to recycle TNG eps.", however, for the most part the show managed to please most some of the time. So when faced with a final ep and so many loose ends and characters I wondered just how it really couuld be done. I remember the fan backlash of B5's SIL and wondered if DS9 would avoid the same pitfalls. Well....Nope. Some of it was just down right insulting with the Federation way of life winning out at the end. Odo telling the female Founder that the Feds will stop everyone else from breaking the deal struck me as funny since they suffered the most damage form the war. No way can they take on anyone else for awhile. [ C'mom Borg ] I see some of the simularities that Glen talked about a month ago and they were pretty hard to ignore BUT the final battle [ if you could call it that ] between Ben and Du Katt made me angry and feel betrayed as a loyal viewer. Seven years led up to this showdown in the Fire Cave? Ben kind of did more when Jake was taken over and the fight of the Pa Wraiths happened on the station. And what was up with Garek's change at the end about his Cardasia? He knew it was gone and he was the one who reminded everyone else that it was. Hell, that's kind of why Du Marr shot Ru Sott. Oh well, I though it a nice ending and interesting to watch.
BTW I think that Teri was not shown because of the SAG rule that says that she would get paid for that appearance. JMS mentioned this when asks why Mike O'Hair was not in SIL. Good ol' Paramount....Cheap skates.. -
I liked the first half of the episode/movie... The battle scenes were pretty cool, even if they did have to resort to using some footage from the other movies (the klingon 'in-ship' explosions). But the last half really dragged on. That Paw-Wraith storyline sucked from the beginning, and I was really starting to get sick of that emissary bullshit over the years. But, the first half that consisted of REAL FIGHTING, REAL TANGIBLE things was pretty cool
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I thought the final episode was good, but the war ended too quickly. I think the Dukat/Sisko battle at the end was too quick, there should have been more than just knocking Dukat and Sisko off the edge with the book. I don't know if anyone else noticed this, but as soon as Sisko told Kassidy at the end when she asked him when will he be back and he said maybe a year, maybe yesterday, the first thing I thought was that there might be a DS9 movie in a couple of years when Sisko has to leave the Prophets for some huge reason. I found it hilarious how quickly the female founder changed her mind after Odo linked with her. With Kate Mulgrew signing on for a seventh season of Voyager, I think that Voyager better start thinking of some really good story lines to take up DS9's mantle. If they make another Star Trek movie wit the TNG cast, I think they should bring O'brien back for his expertise. All in all, not a bad ending, but it could have been a lot better.
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Some random thoughts..... overall I enjoyed the finale..would have liked to have seen Dukat and Sisko really duke it out rather than the swan dive into the fire.. didn't mind the party in Vic's as must as I thought I would, however I would have bought into it more if they had been visiting this program throughout the series and not just within the last 2 seasons... didn't mind that they didn't mentione Jadzia or anything.. I mean what would they say, "I wish she were here"...felt they did enough talking about her throughout this season...she's dead.. move on....got a little confused as to whether Sisko's mission from the beginning (ie 7 years) was to destroy that book or if that was just a part of the "trials" that were mentioned a few episodes ago..ah...have to watch it again......also there seemed to be a geniune theme with the characters of "going home" or "finding where you belong".. O'Brian heading back to Earth, Garek back on Carrdasia, Sisko hanging with the prophets, Worf heading to Kronos, Odo rejoining the link, Bashir finding happiness finally .........hopefully they'll be a future for DS9....perhaps annual TV movies or something....doubt Colm Meaney will be joining another Trek series...he had expressed interest in leaving DS9 a few seasons ago to pursue other interests.....
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Glen, you said in one of the other DS9 articles that you'd spill the beans as to what the differences were between the original script for the final episode and the episode as filmed were as talkback entry for your reader reaction article. Well... here we are...
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Glen, I don't remember who wrote it, but you had a link to a review of this episode a while back. What was that guy on? There was nothing funny about Kai Winn's fate, nor was the last battle souless. The good guys didn't win that easily in my opinion, Odo had to link with the founder to make them surrender. And she might have done so too quickly for us, but I think a lot more happened for them as they linked(remember mind melds, people). They even had enough time for her to tell Odo how to get to the new Founder homeworld. This was a decent finish for the show. However, I would have liked more suspense/time allotted to Sisko's final confrontation with Dukat. These two are the best villain-hero duet since Kirk and Kahn! I didn't need the Jadzia-less montage of memories that badly, I would have rathered seen that last battle of good and evil. I mean, Winn and Dukat took forever to find that spot in the caves, while Sisko just walks out the door on DS9 and then he's THERE in the caves. half a minute later, he and Dukat fall into the pit? That was a HUGE missed opportunity. Sigh. But it was overall a good episode that offered very appropriate endings for most of the characters(particularly Garak). And like any decent finish, it left me wanting more! Okay, Miles and Bashir seem finished. Let them be happy. But now I want more of Ambassador Worf and Chancellor Martok! Worf absolute must find his brother now! What will happen with that teenaged Alexander? Can Jadzia ever return, and if not can Worf get it on with Grilka? And I love the way Worf is now in the exact position Next Gen said he'd be in when the fifty-something Alexander came on board. At last, Worf is a part of the Empire! YES! Now I want to see the Romulans get the same in-depth political treatment as the Klingons and Cardassians got! I want to see the Changelings on our side! I want DS9 movies! And now that the war's over, I want to see the Federation get back to exploring things dammit! Star Trek feels alive with possiblities, even if it's had a few crappola movies and a lame show in Voyager. KEEP THOSE DS9 WRITERS! Berman said he'd let them go off to other things. BERMAN, YOU HACK, KEEP THESE GUYS OR STAR TREK WILL EXPLODE LIKE PRAXIS!
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It doesn't air where I live until Saturday.
I loved seasons 2 and 3 and was really excited that Worf was joining the cast. Then, he and the symbiote babe Dax hooked up after a season or so of sub-par episodes and their lack of chemistry and the poor writing led to even more mediocrity.
The show, with its Prophets and Dominion blather, became a soap opera whereas The Next Generation was a drama, too. But Picard's program had ADVENTURE and it was ENTERTAINING.
Needless to say, I've watched few episodes since then and I am thouroughly disappointed in the series. HOWEVER, the show has remained reasonably interesting and that is why I'm watching the finale. Home Improvement, on the other hand, was funny at first but has gotten SO AWFUL and SO UNFUNNY that I refused to watch the finale. -
The finale made no sense whatsoever in how the federation which i thought was overwhelming from TNG got its ass kicked and then made a come back even though they were outnumbered 20 to 1. At least Paramount had sense to make Star Trek Voyager, cuz after the 3rd season of DS9, i lost interest in the show. Voyager is by far the better of the series, and I know it will go on at least 3 more seasons. I doubt there should be anymore star trek series, cuz to me it would be overkill. but getting rid of DS9 was a great idea.
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Hello fellow Bostonians, I like yourselves, was looking forward to the TWO-Hour DS9 finale on this Saturday. The fine folks at channel 56 however, have other ideas! They are splitting the show in half like the chicago station did, and showing it over two weeks!! They are showing the whole two - hourson the 12th of June between 4 - 6 pm, but not on the weekend it matters!!!! This is not cool!!! I realize the reviews have been metza metza but at the same time, I certainly dont want to watch this thing over two weeks! (especially after 9 weeks of Coming Soon ads!!! ) 617 - 265 - 5656 ask for programming!!!!!!
Thank You. -
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Didnt I tell you this show sucked? Oh yee of little trekkie faith. I've been reading the talkbacks, its pretty obvious to me that the finale show stunk.HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! whadda waste HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! What did I tell you??? HAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Sisco was boring from Day one! and the whole space soap Opera thing NEVER did it for me....and its gone....HAHAHAHAHAHA..hehehehe.... I hated this show....even when I tried to get back into it, I thought it was painfully slow and stupid. I dont get the series finale until tonight (Thursday 6/3/99) here in California. I'll watch it also just to try to get back into it...but...WOOO HOO WEEE its DEAD!! VIC the holo moron is DEAD!!! Sloan from section 31 is DEAD!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! WOOOOO WEEEE.....hopefully the next show will be better (but not likely).
McK....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! -
The finale was like the resolution to a long piece of music. It returned to its home key and resolved the tension it had built in its themes. Just as a sonata shouldn't be adequately judged by only listening to the last section, the recapitulation,I'd like to say that as the last movement of a seven-year piece, the last few weeks and finale of DS9 have been as good as Trek has ever been. The flaws of the actual finale, separated from the rest of the series, are obvious. All I have to add to their enumeration is a question--did anybody time the flashback sequence? Was it longer or shorter than the montage at the end of the last episode of Highlander--The Series?
Here are a few things I was glad the finale got right.
Garak is not set up as an obvious candidate for the now vacant Legate position. He remains in the shadows, nearer the light than he would have preferred and more bitter than ever, and with better reason.
Jake wasn't artificially inserted into the plot (stowed away aboard the Defiant or something), just because it's the last episode.
Kira always wanted a Bajoran to be in charge of the station, and now one is. She has an oportunity to throw herself into work, as has always been her custom after a loss.
Nog (aka Mr. Academy) has been tested by battle and has become a Starfleet officer, using the term in its honorific sense.
Admiral Ross is still useless without Sisko and Martok around to remind him where his spine is located.
Worf, always a man caught between two cultures, has found the best possible role for himself, between those two cultures.
Sisko always thought he was the Prophets' emissary to the Bajorans. Now he can be te Bajorans' emissary to the Prophets.
We still don't know what Morn's voice sounds like, what's under the Breens' helmets nor exactly how far those Trill spots go. -
Well I saw DS9's series finale last night and I must say It comes off kinda lame in my opinion. Seems the writers decided to copy Joe Straczynski's ending technique for Babylon 5. Also I was rather disappointed at the way the story was put together. Either someone was asleep at the story board or whomever did the editing was asleep. If this were to be believable (which it is not) then Gul Dukhat and the Kai would have spent DAYS in the fire caves. Figure travel time from the station to the staging area, then on to Cardassia Prime, to defeat the Dominion, Invade the planet, Capture the changeling, sign the treaty, etc. Return home, have a party and THEN...whoops! Sisko out of the blue gets the feeling he should go to the fire caves!
Bah!
He gets there just as what has been happening for several days worth of story is concluding. It felt to me to be totally out of place. It should have been edited better. Those people are getting paid enough, seems they aren't intelligent enough to properly put together their final piece of work in a believable fashion.
A sad testiment to what could have been a much better show.
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PF: yeah, I did say that. BUT, I haven't seen the episode yet and won't 'till Saturday !!! :-( I can tell you two elements which changed, though: 1) Sisko's fate which NOT left open-ended in the script (he went away for good, none of this "I'll see you in a year" stuff); and 2) At one point, Julian had a line to Garak to the effect of: "Tinker, tailor, soldier, spy" - which did not make the final cut either. More after I see it...**Glen**
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Unlike A lot of readers, I liked the religious subplot. I feel, however, that the writers chickened out. Cisko's sacrifice in order to prevent the freeing of Paw-Wraith should have been more poignant. Both he and Gul Dukhat should have lost their lives and gone to the Gods they served. If the writers were not willing to use religious mythology, they should not have started the subplot.
Also, they should have cut half an hour from the last hour of the show (get rid of the singing and flashback crap). That would have made an excellent show. -
Let's face it... the past three movies that have come out have been horrible, or at the very least, mediocore.
With this so called finale that they showed, first of all, the what has become typical from this bunch writing made everything so quick, neat, and anticlimatic. I have never seen a galactic war seem more unimportant and end so easily and quickly. The Odo thing wreaks! I am wondering, why didn't his linking with the female changeling over a year ago or two send her any kind of a message? By that time, Odo has already had many positive things happen with solids. This is just one example of how the writers really just lost ambition (again) and brushed everything under the rug as quickly as they could.
I mean, how many main characters DIED in this little over an hour show-(sans the billion commercials that they aired along with it, and also, I don't know about you all, but this episode ended about ten minutes before the end of the second hour anyway, and then there were almost eight minutes of solid commercials until the end credits!) - and as usual of the past several years, even all of these things just seem... not important.
I have said it before and I will say it again: As long as Berman, Piller, and Co. keep monopolyzing the writing, directing, and producing chores on the shows, and especially the movies, then Star Trek will continue to slowly die this ignominous, choking death it has been suffering since about the time Generations came out. Remember the way Captain Kirk's death was handled? Remember, this was the legend, KIRK?! And we get to see him fall of some bridge?!?! (Cheap special effect, BTW)
My open appeal to Berman et al is this: LEAVE! Shut everything down for about a year or two, and then let some people who really love and care about Star Trek and know what the hell is going on take over. This finale epitomized everything that has been going wrong. Compare this to All Good Things, the TNG finale. Now that was an event! Everyone cared about it; hell, it was even on the news! When you watched that, you knew and felt something special was going on, and their was a care, excitment, and freshness to it all. I remember my heart beating so fast and being on the edge of my seat during that whole thing. That thing was cool! It was fun! It was exciting, and it had resounding importance! That episode was better than any of the subsequent movies that came after it. I still like to watch it on occasion. Now, that was a finale!
I won't even nitpick all the things I found wrong with this episode, and how things ended, but basically, Sisko is another Wesley Crusher, Odo just...ups and leaves. Why? Send the friggin' female changeling back and ban her as punishment or something! This last episode wreaked of a feeling of "Let's just get this over with!" At least the actors tried to pull out as much as they could given the less than inspiring material. I realize now, I won't even miss this show. I sure as hell could never sit and watch re-runs of this like I can TNG and TOS. This was a good show, but all of Star Trek has become so stale over time. Berman, Piller, and Co. please, for the love of God and all that is holy, let some people who know Star Trek and know how to make MOVIES come in and take over, especially for this next film. (i.e ASAP!) Bring back Nicholas Meyer, Bring back Harve Bennet! Hell, let Shatner and Nimoy do some stuff behind the scenes. Hell, even gamble on Harlan Ellison for a story idea. I am sure any of these people can come up with better stories than what has been going on here these past several years and also certainly better than this Star Wars TPM disgrace that just came out. Almost any writing is better than that! It's a shame to see Star Trek has sunk down to that level.
Reputation or not, Shatner has demonstrated his love and knowledge of Star Trek through the awesome series of ST novels he has been writing lately. Those book have been the true continuing saga of Star Trek as a whole for me. All the characters from all the series are important, and somehow, you see them fit into the bigger picture. I look forward to those like I used to the movies. The quality is there in these books. Reading these, you will remember and once again experience 1st class, high quality Star Trek adventure.
Star Trek still has a lot of life left in it, if we the fans don't let it get choked out. I invite you all to see and remember what real Star Trek is about: good characters, good writing, IMPORTANT EVENTS, important stories, good lessons, etc. and see the entire Star Trek universe evolve, instead of the glorified soap opera Star Trek has become over the last several years. Take my challenge folks: Read Shatner's Star Trek books! You will never regret it!
Also, we all know Nimoy can do magic behind the camera and can tell a pretty good yarn, too.
I want to start a new "Save Star Trek" campaign. Save it from the greed, complacency, staleness, lethargy, mediocrity, and growing disinterest FROM THE INSIDE. I want to see Star Trek be fun, exciting, relevant, important, and "cool" again. Who's with me? -
I wonder if people who didn't like What You Leave Behind also disliked Sleeping in Light? Mind you I'm not comparing them in quality but there were plenty of similarities in tone. Just curious.
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Well I just finished watchign the finale...and yeah, ok it had problems. No it wasn't perfect. But you knwo what? I didn't expect it to be. I tend not to expect perfection out of any show or movie anymore...I mean how often does it deliver? But I got what I wanted...a sweet, moving episode that closed off a show that I've loved for seven years. Maybe the Big Stuff wasn't handled best it coudl be, btu that coudl be said for most of DS9. The strength of htis show has always been in the little things they pulled with their characters, and we got all of that this last trip through the wormhole There was closure, and it was closure that made sense for our heros. I'm going to miss this show...a whole hell of a lot actually...I doubt we'll be seeing the likes of it again from Star Trek if they're not willing to take the chance they did with this show.
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1) The DS9 finale was only good because it was a finale. Hooraw we won. Great, because we want to end the show now. 2) The TNG finale, while it certainly didn't provide the same kind of closure, was much better written and really engrossed me. 3) The next movie DESPERATELY needs better writers. And get Frakes out of the director chair. Get a director who's familiar with EPIC storytelling - like Lucas, but better. And not 10 years old :P 4) In all seriousness, the Trek movies are losing audiences because of their terrible handling of a GREAT cast (TNG) and wonderful world of possibilities. The writers stumble through ideas, either spending a lot of time on meaningless or silly things, or rushing past powerful ones. Insurrection was a HORRIBLE movie! No strong villain (we need a new Kahn!) and meaningless Picard babbling. Don't get me wrong, he's a great authority figure, but enough is enough of this prime directive stuff. Absolute rules are not conducive to powerful conflicts. We need grey areas. More action? Less action? Who cares, so long as it is handled within the CONTEXT of the story. The only real action Insurrection had was during the opening subplot with Data, and at the end with some sort of renegade federation captain (? well not really) That's why Wrath of Kahn worked so well. The action moved the story along (as apposed to giving us a break from the story) 5)The best idea I heard for the next movie (#10!) was ----> the return of Wesley Crusher, older and with the powers of the traveler. Only he was unprepared for such awesome abilites, and basically goes insane with power, teaming up with god-knows-who; the enterprise and the traveler (later on) are forced to find and stop him, at great emotional and physical cost. (He'd essentially be Darth Vader, facing Obi-Wan) <---- Now THAT would be cool. 6)Harry, get us some way to separate our text!!!
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OOOOOOOOHHHH!!!! I just realized what incredible turns that story for the next movie could take (scroll up to read it - it's my other post - wesley has gone insane with the powers the traveler teaches him, and begins a quest for a galactic empire - or maybe even rearranging the universe)...........Listen to this. The movie opens with a flashback to Wesley's leaving the enterprise. They could re-shoot the whole sequence where he stops time, with better actors (less TV-ish), and perhaps with an expanded conversation about how he did so.....Flash through some scenes of exotic space stuff and back through the eye of Mr. Crusher, disguised on a planet. He's evil, but with a twinge of guilt and remorse. We see him exit, flash to the enterprise.....the crew investigates something strange (needs work here ;) and off they go......we see the traveler (we recognise him from the opening) in a panic to do something......we learn later that the enterprise has stumbled on to wesley's path; so has the traveler; both want to stop him from the galactic empire he wishes to create. why? he's destroying people's lives, sacrificing them for this goal, like the borg but much more human - so much more evil........the enterprise and the traveler (he needs a name) cross paths many times before teaming up and finally killing wesley, and scattering his followers ====> sequels!.....................Who's with me here????!!!! Someone submit this to Paramount......or better yet, write the script!!!!! Give me a reference too, cause I'd actually want to work more on this!
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First off, let me just restate how STUPID I think Vic Fontaine really is. He is a LOUNGE SINGER! Ugh. Ok yes, YES, Vic Fontaine was STUPID. The singing and dancing was stupid, I was trying to figure out why DS9 celebrates a major victory in this fashion when I thought it should have been more like the victory celebration at the end of the Superbowl (you know, EVERYBODY going totally CRAZY and having a GREAT TIME!) The flashbacks really didnt bother me because I've missed so much of this show that it all seemed like new footage anyway. The space battle...Ok the space battle was ok (not great) but you know what? I enjoyed the battle scenes that took place with Cardassia Prime in the background, it was more interesting. The other shots had NOTHING in the background (IE: planets, nebulas, or gasses) just a black star field....sorry but I CAN do that on my PC (a P200 AMD K6). Lots of great shots of ships blowing up against a boring black background. I like what the animators on B5 have done with their space battles better than this. The Odo thing, Well I dont watch the show that much so I kinda liked it in a weird way. The Pah Raiths fire caves...good idea, poorly exicuted, I've noticed on Star Trek that the special effects people tend to reuse the same MAT paintings many many times and this is evident at the outside shot of the fire caves and on the INSIDE of the fire caves also, the same two mat shots were reused many times. This reusing of Mat paintings is evident for the main shot of Cardassia...how many times did it pan over the same mat painted city shot (until the showed it in ruin). Damn make your cities in 3d so at least the camera can do fly-bys and zooms and stuff. What mat paintings I saw were GOOD (not exactly photorealistic) just reused a LOT. Sisco, well I have always hated this character, I liked him as HAWK from Spencer: For Hire better. Sisco talks slow and makes every scene he's in boring (in my opinion) his wife having morning sickness was more entertaining than him. All in all, for a show that I hated...it wasnt worth commiting to tape but I enjoyed sections of it while hating other sections of it (the Vic Fontaine scenes). A decent burial for a space soap opera. (and is it just me or are the Breen ripped straight from Princess Leah's Bounty Hunter costume from Return of the Jedi????) no mocking laughter this time, if you liked this show, I wont condem you for it (just return the favor ok ;O)
Mck!! -
Just to comment on the finale. I thought it was a great ending to a great series, and it was a TRUE final ENDING. The only thing I think they missed out, was the inclusion of Bajor into the Federation. But DS9 actually suffered from too many interesting plot lines. And to the guy who said the Space Battles looked stupid without planets and nebulas and amazing looking stars ala "Babylon 5" Umm.. Space is like... dark. Those images are not something you'd see when you look out a window. Sheessh. Its called Space for a reason.
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DS9 has been and from the looks of it, will remain the best of the ST shows. Now all they need to do is blow up Voyager and let ST take a breather for a while. I'd like to see some DS9 movies every once in a while, but for the most part, I think Trek has had its run. I think people can only be dissapointed by something so huge. I there are people who like Voyager, and people like myself who absolutely, without reservation hate it. There are people, like myself, who think DS9 was the best thing Trek has ever accomplished, and there are people who hate it. You're not going to get a Trek that satisfies even the majority of Trek fans out there, because now the group is too diverse. Someone will always bitch about something. I think Trek should end 100%. I hate the idea of there being a Trek show just for the sake of having a Trek show. Sit back and be proud of 33 years of great stuff (not always great, but great often enough that I personally don't feel cheated as a fan). Kudos to DS9's cast and crew for providing us with a Trek series that dealt seriously with so many of the aspects of being alive from the "race issue" someone above was complaining about, to religion, to the idea of exile, to sacrifice and family. I had the biggest emotional investment in these characters when it comes to Trek, and though the finale was flawed, I feel my investment paid off. And though I hate the whole Vic Fontaine story line, I feel that a huge, "Superbowl party" celebration (as someone suggested above) would be terribly inappropriate for the end of a war that cost soooo much. The subdued approach was elegant, though 5 minutes to that damned song was just stupid. Great show & Minsk!
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I'll admit...I wasn't expecting greatness. I've enjoyed Deep Space Nine, for the most part, but the episodes haven't been (with a few noteable exceptions) brilliant in years. And I think it's fair to say that we didn't get greatness or brilliance here...but we did get a solid, if flawed, finale. My criticisms: First, this really didn't need to be a full two hours. Ninety minutes, perhaps. (Then again, a ninety-minute episode wouldn't fit the rerun slots very well, so I suppose it was a matter of necessity.) Second, I'd have liked to see the plots of the Pagh Wraiths and the Dominion War intertwined more than they were...they could have really done a lot (over the past eight weeks, and indeed throughout the series, not just in the finale) in tying the Prophet/Pagh Wraith conflict more into the main action of the series. Remember, it was the Prophets who were essentially keeping the massive Dominion Fleets from the Gamma Quadrant out of the war. I know they played with this aspect at the end of last season, but I think a Dominion/Pagh Wraith alliance of sorts would have been a lot more compelling (and a lot scarier) than what we got, which was Dukat off in his own little universe. Third: The Breen. After all that hemming and hawing about how mysterious they were, what their motives were, etc., I was dying for some payoff. Ah well...maybe in a movie. All that aside, I enjoyed the episode...I liked it a *lot* more than 'All Good Things'. I liked that we actually got a sense that things were ending. And, as for the allegations that this episode ripped off 'Sleeping In Light'...I class it with the allegations that DS9 in general was a blatant Babylon 5 clone. Yeah, there are superficial similarities (and yes, I'm aware that Paramount had the original B5 series proposal when Berman was sniffing around for a new Star Trek series). But the two shows are ultimately very different. Anyway, them's my thoughts.
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Funny how tastes are so different among fandom. I personally liked "What You Leave Behind" a great deal. The events leading up to the liberation of Cardassia were great and although I would have preferred a more climactic end to Sisko and Dukat's final battle, it served its purpose. Why are so many people against the Sisko/Emissary/Prophets storyline? DS9 has always been about going against the grain of established Trek mythos, especially when it came to religion. The political intrigue of the show isn't for everyone and it did become an aria of the space opera that blossomed over the years. I happen to like that stuff and if you don't, that's cool too. Doesn't it take different strokes to rule the world? Especially when everybody has a special kind of story and has to find a way to make it shine? It doesn't matter what you have. Not a lot, so what? He has his, you have yours, and I have mine. Here's hoping we're not seeing the last of the DS9 characters.
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Epsilon3 noted that a massive Alpha Quadrant party would be inappropriate due to the amount of lives lost in this war, especially on Cardassia Prime. This is only my opinion but remember the re-edited version of Return of the Jedi's ending where it showed parts of ALL the planets that were part of the saga and they were celebrating? Ok that is what I talking about. There is alway going to be mourning and sadness after fighting a war, that is inevitable. But I think showing how the Klingon would deal with it, and the Romulans deal with it, and Cardassia deal with it and Bajor is dealing with it and the Federation deals with it (and the crew of DS9 deal by celebrating with Vic Fontaine...ugh) McK.
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In the New York area, DS9 airs tonight, so I haven't seen it yet, but from the spoilers and the build up episodes, it looks like it's going to be a horrible end to a horrible series. The lead up episodes have been filled with screaming flaws- Martok would most certainly kill a corrupt,ineffecient leader like Gowron out of Klingon Sense of Duty. The Ferengi become a Scandinavian Socialist State over night? People who are dealing with a galactic war find their consolations in a bad Sinatra wannabe? And I realize the realities of production costs and difficulties of getting them to appear, but wouldn't the Flagship of the Federation be invovled in the war? Maybe ?
Well.. a season more ov 7 of 9: Voyeur, er.. Voyager, and maybe some
black time, and we'll see if Paramount can get their heads out of their collective ass. If not, I say, let Peter David write a couple more New Frontiers books, and let the Franchise hibernate for a while. We've now had over 10 years of very mixed quality Trek content, I say, let it go.
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BigStu, thanks for the support!
I kind of like you idea about Wesley, but just a couple of things: 1.) Wesley doesn't merit the weight of an entire movie. Besides, Wil Wheaton has gone COMPLETELY Gen X. Forget him!
2.) Peter David already took this idea in sense, and really kicked but with it. See his novel Q Squared.
(See my previous post above for context.)
I think they should just let the whole damn thing end with what little dignity it has left, at least until people who know and care about real Star Trek can come along and save it.
Also, I noticed that in at least two major cities (Chicago and Boston) as mentioned above, were all having problems getting this episode to air as one whole, or at a decent time, or having it preempted all together for basketball or baseball. Just to prove a point: Look how much luster and respect Star Trek has lost. Could you imagine if they had done that back when All Good Things came on? No way! Star Trek commanded more merit and respect back then; the TV stations wouldn't have had the gall to do it. But now, they don't care, and lot of other people, including true fans, don't care... I rest my case. -
In response to the post by
Flint2.You're right on the money
with your observations.I've
noticed for a LONG time the
strange similar plots.Sisko
leaving with the Prophets is
identical to Sheridan being taken by Lorien to join the first ones ending from the B5 series
finale.And Sisko's wife getting
pregnant towards the season's
end?Sounds like the same plot
where Delenn became preggers with Sheridan's kid
towards the end of their series
end as well.Way TOO many
copying by trek writers,really
just taking B5 stories and doing
their trek take on it.Except they
weren't too subtle about it. -
A crappy ending to a crappy show. Thank god that the nightmare is over.
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I thought it was lame that Jadzia didn't show up in any of the crew's memories during the whole 7-season flashback sequence, not even Worf's! I mean, if he's looking back at the station and thinking of all his fond memories there, his first image should be of Jadzia!
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And so ends probably the second to last Star Trek series to grace TV. Gotta admit, when I read about how Capt Sisko was going ot die, I was pissed. I was even worse off when I heard about how the crew was going to fragment itself. Worf becoming an ambassador, Cheif O'Brian becoming a professor, Odo leaving to rejoin the founders. How could this end any less than a complete dropping of everything that DS9 is?
Well, the episode itself was rather good. The space scenes were rather remarkable, especially where Nog took the Defiant on that loop, though I also noticed that alot of the scenes were reruns of either the Federation's reinvasion towards DS9 or their attack on the Chintoka(?) system, mostly the klingon scenes. I liked how the Cardassians all of a sudden turned on their dominion allies as well. Damar's death was rather bland, it could have been much more patriotic, though Garak's little speech about getting revenge was good, I have always liked Garak, and his laughter at the situation was priceless. Of Sisko's battle with Gul Dukat, I am disappointed, the only real part of the finale that could have been majorly improved. The whole thing dragged on, why didn't Dukat and Kain Winn just beam in like Sisko did? Also, Kai Winn's betrayal of Dukat was interesting, but her last minute return to the Prophets side was too bland as well. She gets up, how I don't know, and tries to toss that Pah-wraith bible, whatever it was called, into the flames. That was just too uneventful, though I liked how Dukat torched her. By the by, did the Fire Caves remind anyone else of a picture of Hell, or was it just me? Anyway, then Sisko gets up, just does, no explination, charges Dukat, and both of them burn. Again, where's the gut wrenching drama in that? Couldn't Sisko have given some kind of "I am the Emissary of the prophets! I will kick your spoonheadded, ph-wraith infested ass!" speech, other than that reducilious "The Pah-Wraiths will never conquer this that and the other thing" speech? I personally would have rather seen something much more faith inspired like when a Pah-Wraith took over Jake and Kira was posessed by a prophet. Sisko's faith in the Prophets that they would win and spare Jake, or at least do what it was that they felt was best, was very good. Pushing him off into the flames that he sought to use to consume he galaxy is only decent irony at best.
The little cleanup that happend after Sisko's death, his talking to Cassidy how he would return, gave me a little hope that there may be a movie, though I would bet that it will be after or during the birth of his son. The flashback scenes that the characters had was a great idea: Miles and Julian and their holosuite adventures among other things, Quark and his stints at the bar and with the others, Worf's was VERY disappointing, there was practically nothing, same for Dax, I would think that she would have had SOME memories from Jadzia, Odo and Nerys and their progressing romance. Jake's was the best, from when he was a kid and Sisko still had hair and no gotee, to when he just had the gotee, was great. Even the goodbye between Odo and Nerys was good. Finally, Quark's "The more things change, the more things stay the same" was also good. Finally, the slow zooming out from DS9, like a space station version of a fade off into the sunset, was a nice touch.
Did anyone notice that Ben Sisko's baseball was still there? Of course, otherwise you didn't wait for the end, dumb question on my part. What happened last time he left it there? He came back. Tell tale sign that there is definately some sort of movie in store. Deep Space Nine, as it progressed, became a contender for best star trek series. Let's all hope that if a movie is in the planning stage, that it lives up to the series. Otherwise, all we trekkies have to hope for is Voyager coming home. -
Finsihed off the finale about an hour ago, and it was awful. As mentioned above, the completeley recycled sequences, the absence of major characters from the reminisences, the continuing theft from B5, lounge singing, and the famed Trek inability to really delve deeply into themes and show the horrible consequences of the events that happen off screen.. and are usually more interesting then what happens onscreen. (Remember when they mentioned the fall of Betazed.. wouldn't you like to see something of that?)
ANd what makes it worse is that there were a couple promising moments in the beginning... the conversations on the new Defiant ( which it should have been called Defiant-A, in the tradition established in Trek IV, but do you expext Paramount to remember trivia that could lend 'historical
flavor' to Trek? Of course not.) The scenes of the resistance up to
them laughing when they can't get in had a depth and emotion to them. Then the recycled battle scenes, the holosuite, and the all to pat resolutions. And the elevator muzak remix of the DS9 theme.
Again, some good elements, but when they are wasted in an awful sentitmental mess like the finale, they only serve to illuminate the flaws.
Well, since Voyager seems to be the end of Trek's Silver Age, and a tarnished one at that, I just hope the next Age of Trek will be far more interesting. -
I dunno, I haven't seen DS9 for several seasons because of it's not-so-convienent time-slot around here (6pm on Friday night), but for the most part I found the series finale dull and boring, with a strange plot that I didn't understand (obviously based on events that happened in episodes I missed). The battle scenes were very very nice, though nothing that came close to the opening 5 minutes of the series premiere of DS9 so many years ago. THAT was awesome..
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I am a fan of sci-fi, but Trek shows have always left me wanting. Some episodes have been excellent, but many others, IMO, are just filler. The finale was good. Not great. Just good. Not its best, nor its worst. I definitely thought of B5's SIL during this episode. Don't know why. I guess it had to do with the fact that we knew something was gonna happen to Sisko. I also thought it was slightly impersonal. It just kinda ended. No "Thanks to all involved" or anything to that effect. In that respect, SIL was a way better ending to a show. I actually think it was one of the finest endings to any show. Though I think DS9 was and will probably be the best Trek ever. It had its problems. I'll give it that. I'll give it that. Oh well....Crusade starts next week.
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I felt that the finale completed the cycle of the show nicely; however I think the writers neglected the most important and recurring theme of the show: that of how far would the Federation go to defend its way of life. The whole Section 31 plot line especially suggested how very far from Roddenbury's idealism the producers of DS9 were willing to go, how much stress they were willing to apply to the very foundations of Roddenbury's utopian vision, and some sort of final resolution or address of that matter would have been nice. Ultimately, in my opinion it was a fairly satisfying conculsion to an excellent series.
Also to the person who said that "The Visitor" was the greatest alltime of ST, I wholeheartedly agree. That episode alone made me a DS9 fan and gave me faith that ST still had legs to stand on. -
This was an INCREDIBLE letdown. I've never been a great fan of DS9, but I sorta hoped the last episode would do something memorable... something great... something ORIGINAL, for heaven's sake! Instead, we get a poor copy of B5's final (and all-in-all rather memorable) episode(s) - I mean, it seemed almost the SAME SCRIPT in some parts! Sisko 'going over' a'la Sheridan's death; the great battle a'la B5's great battle; etc.etc.etc. Fine, maybe I'm biased,but my LORD, at least the special f/x could have been better than mere CRAP! Did you notice that, in one scene, the point of impact on a federation battleship begins to glow BEFORE the pulse hits it? It's such a primitive mistake, is it possible that nobody noticed it? And all the used scenes, all the recycled f/x and characters & plot devices... Yes, DS9 did indeed go out in style - in a very bad, cheap, MacDonald cardboard style...
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I liked the finale. It was a little long and the whole Sisko and Dukat thing was way to short.
In regards to the comments about "The Visitor," I think this episode sort of ruined the finale for me.
"The Visitor" really showed the bond between Jake and Sisko but who does Sisko visit before he leaves? Kassidy! I kept hoping he would come back and at least say by to Jake but no such luck.
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I'm glad DS9 is over and I've watched pretty much every single episode since its debut.
DS9, even though many will dispute it, was the weakest of the Star Trek, IMO, and out of 120 maybe 150 episodes about a 1/3 were good solid stories. The majority of the others suffered from good premises but bad deliveries or the whole parallel universe (the 'Mirror, Mirror syndrome) which never worked. I think the show had its stable of bad actors too (Siddig, Farrell, and Brooks) hamming it up for no reason while the better characters (Visitor, Auberjenois (sp)) were trapped in piss poor written tales.
The finale, and let's face it, all the episodes leading up to it, was uneven at best. Trying to hold together the many plot lines and then trying to thread them together caused the final episode to end with a lot of wheezes and whirs.
I hope another Star Trek series is on the horizon and if there isn't the Trekkies'll definitely have something to say about but if ends now here with DS9 and at least two more seasons of Voyager, then we at least can say we're sated, right? Right? -
I am a loyal ds9 and voyager fan.i liked the ds9 last 2 years dominion arc, but the finale didn't do justice to anything.The so called and promoted spectucalar final battle was nowhere that.The space battle in 'sacrifice of angels' was much better both in special effects and suspense.To sum it up, we were expecting a epic battle, and this battle was nowhere that.The death of Sisko was again staged as a big time disappointment, for such a heroic figure as sisko, his death should have been made heroic and important not as lame as knocking over dukat in the fire caves.Reminded me to sort of the same letdown was Capt.Kirk death in generations.In conclusion, such a loved, enjoyable and great show was not done justice at the end.
Also to those who dont leave any effort in blasting voyager; you all need to realize that voyager is suffering because of the screwed up stand-alone concept it has.had they made it return to alpha-quadrant about 2 years ago, it would have very much stole the thunder from ds9.it has better special effects and characters are more comfortable and balanced.
Well good-bye forever to my beloved series ds9 -
Well, the body count was sure high, wasn't it? Damar, Winn, Dukat, Garak's maid Mila, Weyoun, and Sisko? Plus 800 million Cardassians. And if you count the last few episodes, throw in semi-regulars like Gowron and Sloan too.
Why is it that "resolution" so often equals "death" in science fiction? Death has become an over-used plot device, and is cliche at this point.
And everyone left the station! O'Brien, Worf, Garak, Odo, and last week, Rom & Leeta.
Now the episode: The first half was great, I thought. An excellent way to end a two-year old arc.
They started to lose me when Damar died. The repentance this character underwent in the past few months was great, and he deserved to be the leader of the new Cardassia. Instead, the writers went for cheap dramatic thrills by killing him off (like the writers of NYPD Blue with Andy's wife this season). Right there, the episode became a disappointment. Death is easy drama. The DS9 writers should know better and try harder.
Not to mention that the whole Winn/ Dukat/ PahWraiths thing was never tied into the war arc! What were they thinking? Sisko up and leaves in the middle of a victory party and is never heard from again? THAT'S the great conclusion to this character's story that we've waited 7 years for? Not even a goodbye to his crew? Or any rational justification for what he did-- or any explanation? No, there the writers get a big "F".
And that's the "resolution" of Dukat's arc? Not good enough. "F"! I knew this whole Pahwraiths subplot was a mistake.
The only character's death that didn't feel like cheap drama was Weyoun, and the slimy little jerk died the way he should have - suddenly and at the hands of someone like Garak.
But the rest? Damar - deserved better. Dukat - deserved better. Winn - deserved better.
The character moments were great, and everyone (except Sisko) got their due. This has been DS9's strength over the years, and the finale justified that.
But the Sisko thing was almost unforgivable. I realize they want to leave their options open for a return to DS9 movie or something, but this was supposed to be a finale! We were promised resolution, not some open-ended tale that may never get resolved.
So, the first hour: Great, a Star Trek classic -- really, up there with the best.
The second hour: A disappointment. Not insultingly stupid like Generations, but not at all what it could have been. A letdown.
Still, it was a great 7 years. Long live DS9.
Sam
PS Put me down for a prequel series next. -
Deep Space Nine was my favorite Star Trek series and although I liked portions of the finale, it just felt too rushed. They did too many stories in this 2 hr finale, and ended up not doing justice to any of them. For instance they could have done a whole episode of the battle and Kira, Dumar and Garak struggling to get to the founder. They could have made Dumar's death more heroic this way. Plus they could have built up the whole deal with the Pah wraiths , Kai Winn and Dukat in the caves, and made it really seem like a grand struggle for the galaxy. As it was it kind of fizzled. Another whole episode could have been devoted to Kira and Odo. Their romance has been one the most touching story lines I've seen, and over the years they've done a great job with the buildup and their finally getting together. Their parting deserved equal justice. It was too easy the way Odo decided he had to return to the great link and Kira let him go too easily. They both should have struggled more with the decision and it would have been much more satifying had Kira ultimately decided to let him go, deciding that Galactic peace was more important than tier romance. If they wanted a tear-jerker episode, they could have done it by fleshing out this storyline. The struggle between Sisko and Dukat was rather lame. After all this emisary stuff they push each other over a cliff? That's it? And then what about Jake? The father-son relationship of Sisko and Jake have been one of the most well developed and sweet relationships of the series, they could have shown a little more with that especially at the end. Both Jake and Kasidy should have been tranported to the Celestial temple, again, fleshed out more, it could have been a real tearjerker scene. Instead, my husband burst out into mocking laughter at Sisko's final parting words to Kassidy-"It's the once and future Sisko!!!". The victory party, with Sisko abruptly leaving seemed so choppy. They could have done a grand bittersweet party at the end, shown Miles leaving, Worf leaving, a promotion party for Nog and the flashbacks, and finally ending with Jake and Kassidy looking out at the worm hole. So in a nutshell, there were real possibilities in these stories that did not get a chance.Darn those editors!!!
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I found it strangely ironic how Odo and Kira's parting scene had the EXACT same camera shot that was seen in the Babylon 5 finale: "Sleeping in Light". Also, several quotes used by Sisko's mother are the exact same ones used by Lorien in B5. Can't Star Trek writers come up with anything original? Overall, I thought that the DS9 final episode was pretty good. It was much better than some of the crap at the beginning of the season, like the baseball episode. When they finally find an effective blend of Drama, Feeling, and Action, the show ends. Let's just hope that Voyager get better, although I doubt that will ever happen!
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My UPN station didn't even show it this week, they are waiting to show this June 6 at 8:00, torrmorrow. Treating it like a movie of the week. I mean this is upfair for me for all you people seeing it and not me. Well now I know how the English people felt when we all American saw all of the Red Dearf Series 8 and they didn't. It makes me mad. But what I am getting from you with this one, is that you are all haveing mixed reviews from it. That it is like Babylonn 5's Sleeping in the Light. If that is right, than I will shed a tear, because that what happen to me when I saw Sleeping in the Light last Nov. that seem almost like a year ago. But I can still reminder the lines that Sheridan and Delenn said to each other.
Sheridan:" Good night my star and my moon."
Delenn:" Good night my sky."
Dose anybody know what the last lines will be in this.
Points to all of you people that are talking. In subject lines mark, "Spoliers" because not everybody in the entire world have seen it yet. Namely the people in the Phila area of the contry. Hey you reading a post from a person that even haven't seen Star Wars. I know what you will do to me yell and shot at me for not doing that, but I am not waiting in lines for almost five hours to find out that all of the tickets are sole out. I don't have a creibt card so I can't get them on the Web.
Celebrating the biggest victory in the Starfleet histroy with holograms, what with that? Hey Rick get a clue, look at the being of the Babylon 5's eps. Eppiness(sp?) There are about close to 5 minutes of the party and you see people with LIVING people and not with holograms. The music in that one was like the Big Band Music but still had a modern type tone to it.
Good bye, Minariva -
FYI:According to several sources Ms. Farrell wanted alot of money to give permission for the producers to use clips of her in the finale, they couldn't come to terms and that's why she's not there......As to my feelings of the finale, I don't care they reused effects (as does 99% of the audience),I don't care they didn't have non-stop battles for 2-hours (If you want that play a video game), What I do care about is that it wraped up the major stories in a very emotionaly and powerful manner and touched my heart and during act 9 brought tears to my eyes, the final shot was a heartbreaker.......Brave to the cast (Who really overall are a great set of actors),crew,producers,writers,and composers for DS9.... TAKE A BOW you've earned it.
IMHO of course... -
What a rip off of Babylon 5.
I wish that all wars ended this way (yah right) I have a disease heres the cure - cool its all over what da hell is that?
Im so very glad we had B5 -
watching this series blow it time and time again is a real bummer. i liked garak and quark always, everyone else was filler. its not the actors fault. i mean, when mila asks them if they didnt like their "meal" and dumar says something like , its not the "food" -was an example. here we are in the year 7 and there arent any names for cardassian food? this series was about one step away from turning into a hanna barberra cartoon series where the same generic background gets repeated until you drop. its time for some "open source" star trek writing, where people who actually like the shows can wrtie it themselves so it can stop sucking so badly..
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The finale of DS9 was wonderful. How dare some of you compare it to an episode of Babylon 5. YOU WISH! This is not only the best Star Trek ever, it's the best television series ever. I still have tears in my eyes. Why are you all such assholes? There is never any way to please you. Have you ever all found one thing that satisfied you? NO! The only thing that makes me sadder than your jaded criticisms is the fact that I'll no longer have my favorite show of all time to depend on for quality and character. As an atheist myself, I never found it too religious. You all can do nothing but tear down and destroy -- with delusions of grandeur that you could do better. DREAM ON! I love you Deep Space Nine. I'll miss you!
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The DS9 Finale worked for me because it wrapped up the storylines. It just left a bitter taste in mouth. I want MORE!!! It should have discussed the Cardassian aftermath more completely. The flashbacks were a waste of time. I need more plot. I wish they developed the finale over three or four episodes. Oh well. Its over. : (
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that those things looked like that bounty hunter that princess leya dressed as to save han??
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(I would have posted earlier, but in Atlanta DS9's aired at 11:35pm Saturday nights!) Other than no Jadzia, the finale wasn't too bad--I'm reasonably satisfied. I suppose one can't expect the ending of Deep Space 9 to have the power of Babylon 5's, but the DS9 folks didn't really start the story arc thing until towards the end, while B5's 5-year story sprung whole from the forehead of its creator. That said, speaking as a fanboy of The Original Series, I have developed a deep affection for DS9. And while I'm as big a fan of the Great Bird as anyone, Gene's cockeyed-optimist original vision of the Trek universe was well tempered by the darker seasoning provided by the DS9 gang three decades later. TNG was fine for its time; Voyager is a yawner still doomed by its limiting frame tale. But TOS and DS9 symbolize the full range of the Star Trek universe, and will best stand the test of time as true reflections of the respective eras which spawned them.
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It is 2:30 a.m., Sunday morning, June 6, 1999, Austin, Texas and this is no more Star Trek on free T.V. Our local FOX station boardcast the finale at
11:35 on Saturday night. All two hours (and I am grateful it was shown all at once). Knowing this was the final season, I have been staying home a lot on
Saturday night to watch this last season. It has been great. But not without flaws. I hate Vic Fontaine and I hated his song. I wanted a long "beauty" shot of the armada to Cardassia. I wanted to see the Romulans, Klingons, Federation and other ships for a bit - not a quick shot. And I wanted to see the Romulans take a bigger part in the action and the story. I guess, I just want more. There is a U.P.N. station here is Austin but it is a low power sucky station that depends on cable. I can't have cable - I get addicted and I don't do anything else. So there is no more Star Trek on free T.V. And I'm hoping Nana Visitor - I loved many of the actors on this series - but she has a special place in my heart. I hope she finds a long and busy career in the future. And truthful, I have loved DS9 for a long time but I have been resigned that it became a war movie these last years. This is *not* Roddenberry's vision for Star Trek. Star Trek was never might to be a war
movie. I hope future Trek shows move away from the big wars and find writers who can find tension, intensity, and passion with having the worlds at war.
Goodbye, DS9. I wish I could rest in the Celestial Temple.
Tangent Z -
Okay, the ending was mediocre. I liked the episode, but it was shoddy at points.
However, I have a very important question. Let's think back to the beginning. Wasn't the entire point of Starfleet moving into DS9 so that they could prepare Bajor to join the Federation? What happened with that?
My only realy complaint with the ending of the show is that. And, of course, the fact that Rick Berman is the single factor which has destroyed the Trek franchise... -
I've been an avid Star Trek fan since I was a kid. Although some of the stories on DS9 left me feeling a bit dry, the writing and acting was about the best to be found on television... Star Trek fan aside. DS9's final was all right, nothing better, nothing worse. Emotional where it needed to be. I did feel a sense of closure to it. It's main problem, something that all Star Trek has yet to overcome, is that the endings are always rushed. The show has never been paced correctly. They needed a bit more time to focus on the profit storyline. That was to my taste, severly rushed, and a bit of a cheat. The bulk of the Sisko storyline should have had him chasing down Dukat and Winn, attempting to stop this unknown threat to the galaxy, while the domain battle flaired elsewhere, intercutting the both for suspense sake. It would have been powerful at the beginning to have Sisko choose between leading the federation army or finally believing that his role as the emisary will help save the universe. Choosing between duty and faith. It would have proven to be the leap of faith that his character has been building toward the entire seven years. Worf would have then led the defiant into victory, finally proving his commanding skills, while Kira led the resistance on Cardassia. Now that would have been suspensful and given plenty of time for each storyline. Just imagine that at the moment that the federation had thought that they won the battle, Dukat was to unleash the Pah Raifs (?) into the universe, killing everything, and that is when Sisko sacrafices his life to save all life, with no one ever really knowing that the real hero was actually him. A quiet victory for Sisko, the way it was always meant. Now that's drama, and a pay-off. Oh, and their goodbye toast could have been done before they went into battle. The last time we see them all together, the way it should have been done, instead of Sisko sneaking away for the last five minutes to rap up his sub plot. Rushed, rushed, rushed.
That said, I have too quick pet peeves here after reading the talkbalks. (1.) For God's Sake, quit making comparisons to B5. If you like that show so damn much, then watch the damn repeats and quit watching Trek. And stop complaining so much. It's only a tv show. (2) Let's show Harry that semi-intelligent people visit his web site. It's called proof reading. If you're going to take the time to post something for everyone to read, then at least proof read your posting once before clicking POST. Myself and everyone included shouldn't have to guess at what you're trying to say, it should speak for itself. A well thought out posting can only help add to the strength and credibility of it. (And I'm not talking about the impossible to spell Sci-fi names. I'm just talking about everyday words.) Oh, and cool it with the cursing. It only makes you look like more of an idiot. (Although, a well placed metaphor can actually help at key times. "WELL PLACED" being the key. Not repeatedly.) And well, pet peeves aside, I think that about wraps it up.
P.S. I heard (possibly rumor) that they have finally decided to bring Voyager home, sometime around January. So we might have not seen the last of the DS9 group. Trek on! -
I'm sorry if this sounds patchy in places, but I'm from the UK, and I haven't seen "What you leave behind", and chances are that I wont see it for several months (we are only at 7.4 in the videos and cable and satellite TV are just getting into season 7, and I don't even have access to that - So take pity PLEASE!).
Anyway, saying that, from what I have read here, and looking at the preview from startrek.com (I know that it isn't much to go on) it looks pretty decent.
To be honest, I wasn't really into DS9 to start off with. To me it didn't seem to go anywhere and didn't have the same flare and charm that The Next Generation had, but that started to change after the start of series 3 when we were introduced to the Dominion and caught our first look at the USS Defiant, which I thought to be a strange shape at the time, but worked well I feel. That first time I saw it open fire on a ship, I thought "Wow!!! I can see great things happening for this series". And even though some of the episodes were rough (and some of them just damn awful), the whole thing started to go nicely. The introduction of Worf was a nice touch, and because I was living in Australia at the time news was slow in getting to me and I didn't know what his reason for being there was for, so to me the war with the Klingons were a nice touch. I thought it went on for the right amount of time (a season and a half) but I felt that it should have being just that little more intense. And you couldn't tell me that when Worf first met Jadzia something major was going to spark up - That much was certain.
Just a question for please, when did Kira start wearing that natty little Starfleet uniform? As far as I am concerned, that uniform never looked happier - Schwing!
Now, here is the part where I'm not sure of, so please excuse me if I'm wrong, but is that correct in this episode Sisko and Gul Dukat battle on the edge of a lava pit and fall in (boy, where have I heard that idea before :) I think that someone read the Return Of The Jedi novel one to many times... Personally, I think that it was wrong to do that. The way I would have done it would be to have a space battle over Cardassia with Sisko at the helm both sides taking HUGE casualties, and have brief glimpses and mentions of the Enterprise-E to give homage, and to see it really fly into battle chopping up Jem Hadar ships would look just TOO cool :) while on the surface, or in that lava cave that is in WYLB (not sure?) have a way cool hand to hand fight between Dukat and Worf, taking revenge for killing Jadzia.
But you know in a way, this doesn't have to be the end of the Dominion, with another film on the way, and I hope it is better than Insurrection (not that it was bad, but It could have done with some adjustments - you cant argue with that), you could have a small Dominion fleet laying in wait somewhere just waiting for the right time show up, and have like a new breed of Jem Hadar, super warriors that don't need Ketrocel White, and they could show up and just wreck havoc on stuff, maybe invade Earth - NOW THAT WOULD BE COOL!
You know it's just a pity that the FANS don't right the series because I'm sure that we could have done a better job than Rick Berman and co.
But even through all this, a great show and an important piece of a show that has meant so much to television has come to an end. Farewell to Deep Space Nine. We will miss you.
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this series does need a rest. the star trek producers have taken a lesson from the execs at mcdonalds- they both have figured out how to get people to eat the same crap repeatedly, all the while they put less and less into the product...voyager is the happy meal of the series- they know there's not enough there, so they put a little jeri ryan toy in every episode...
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I liked the show. I had never immersed myself in DS9 the way I did with the other star trek series, but it was a nice show.I'd kill to have the last 3 seasons in order on video. I just never clicked with it. My comments on the Finale: I'm glad Dax and the Doc finally hooked up, I'm glad Dax and Worf reconciled )though I don't like the fact that Michael Dorn claimed he would never wear the make-up again), I can't believe that after all that time, they paired Kira with Odo only to part them forever, and I hope they do some tv movie of special in the future, to make sure that Sisko really does make it back to Jake and Cassidy. But at the very least, it tied up all old storylines; and said a heartfelt farewell to all it's fans.
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Jun 06, 1999 2:46:44 PM CDT
A dissaponting end that gives us great possiblities for the futu
by 20th century fox
I feel that DS9 is the BEST TREK of them all...Yet I was severly disapointed in the finale. It just felt rushed in the conclusion of the Dominion/Federation war storline (That was really soo well deleloped too...a shame...) Yet after watching it I WANT MORE DS9 but I fell DS9 is not made for fetaure films yet I fell it has a better format for a five night mini-series (if PRARMOUNT can turn out a 16 part, 36 hour piece of shit like WINDS OF WAR DS9 would easily be a rating winner...) that would expolre the aftermath in depth...Comments?
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I won't spend a whole lot of time going on about the episode, which I thought was a wonderful climax to the most fully developed Star Trek series yet. My heart goes out to DS9 fans in Chicago and Boston who were screwed by the programmers. I have a feeling we can all tell similar stories about how the series was often shuffled around. Its funny, despite that, the show was still the highest rated syndicated drama, routinely spanking Xena and Hercules which don't seem to get shuffled in either the Cleveland or Columbus areas. I'm curious as to whether or not DS9 will be rerun in syndication. It would make a perfect fit for the SciFi channel. Heck, TNG would as far as that goes. In Cleveland, TNG is relegated to airings at 5am on Sundays and after Indians games. My gut feeling tells me we'll never see another new DS9 adventure again. I hope we can still find a way to relive the old ones. Maybe we can start bugging SciFi now!
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That had to be the most melodramatic, overacted, poorly scripted piece of Star Trek crap i've ever seen. Don't get me wrong, the series itself had some great moments, but the finale was (in a word) awful.
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THE SERIS FINALE WAS BRILLIANT,10 STARS.THE POINT I WOULD LIKE TO MAKE IS DS9 IS BY FAR DIFFERENT AND A MUCH BETTER SHOW,THEN B-5.I DON'T WANT TO SOUND VAIN,BUT VISUALS SELL ENTERTAINMENT,I KNOW B-5 DID NOT HAVE A LARGE BUDGET, BUT VISUALLY THAT SHOW SUCKED,DS9 IS A NON- FEDERATION SPACE STATION,AND LOOKED BETTER THAN THAT CRAPPY B-5.I WANT JUDGE B-5,SEEING I HAVE NEVER WATCHED MORE THAN 5 MIN.,AND SEEN ONLY ONE OF THOSE CRAPPY TELE-FILMS,BUT ALL B-5 FANS HATE TREK FANS BECAUSE WE ARE THE MAJORITY, B-5 FANS ARE THE MINORITY,IT'S THE ORDER OF THINGS.AND LIKE IN SOCIETY MAJORITY RULES.THE FINALE WAS SPETACULAR,IT WAS BEATIFULLY SHOT AND THE ORINGINAL STORY WAS BREATH TAKING,THE UGLY STEPSISTER
SHOWED AT THE BALL AND SHOWED UP THE OTHER TREK SERIS.I WILL MISS YOU DS9 THE LAST GREAT STAR TREK SERIS EVER.CONGRATS -
I just caught "What we Leave Behind", and I must say it was excellent. It tied up all of the show's loose ends and still managed to throw a few surprises at us here and there. The war played out to it's logical conclusion, but the best part of the show for me was the climactic final battle between Sisko and Dukat. As for Sisko's final fate: it was very appropriate for this show. DS9 has always stood out from the other Trek shows because it's the only one thats willing to take real risks. It's always been the "Star Trek with balls" if you will. That was demonstrated tonight. Though Sisko promised Cassidy he would be back even if he were to return he would not ever be the same. I am much more sorry to see this show go then I was when Generation ended. Generation didnt really end. The show aired it's final episode in June '94 and by November '94 they were on the big screen. The DS9 finale actually seemed FINAL. Sisko, Odo, O'Brien, and Worf are gone. As much as I loved this show I almost hope they don't "undo" the end of this episode to reunite them in a movie. This was the apropriate final chapter for this part of the Star Trek legacy. I say lets move on. Leave Sisko's fate somewhat mysterious. WHat we imagine is no doubt more interesting then anythiong they could ever show us. DS9 has been the best of the four Trek series thus far. The writing has been consistantly excellent, the actors are incredible, and the characters seem more realistic then those on Generation or Voyager. It was willing to take risks where as Voyager and even Next Gen tended to "play it safe".
This show WILL be missed. I only hope Ron Moore can take some of that magic to Voyager with him next year. That show has been pale in comparason to DS9 and definatly needs something, especially if it is to be the lone Trek series. -
Regarding the poster who said he liked Geordi and Worf episodes of Next Gen because they were black and that he liked SIsko cause he was black I think your missing the point big time. Race doesn't matter on Star Trek. They could have cast an Asian man to play Sisko and the character would not have changed. Race is not even an issue on Star Trek. As for the fans comparing the finale to B5's finale, well you coulcnt be more wrong. I watched every episode of B5 and have them all on tape. B5 was great. BUT aside from the fact that BOTH shows were set on spacestations there were very few similarities. Sleeping in the Light was NOTHING like What you Leave Behind. I know. I HAVE seen both. Tell me that you didn't like What you Leave Behind and I will respect your opinion though I couldn't disagree with it more, but don't try to tell me that they ripped off B5 because Iv'e been a loyal viewer of both shows and KNOW better.
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I thought that is was pretty good. It could have been better. A better space battle. But that was probably just a budget thing. Everyone is saying how it was just like Sleeping in Light. It was nothing like Sleeping in Light. WYLB had major story lines. Sleeping in Light was just about Sheridan dying the entire episode. I guess thats what you get when you have major B5 fans reviewing WYLB. Anyway, I would have liked to see what the Breen actually look like. Bajor should have joined the Federation. I didn't like the way Odo left. They made such a big deal about him falling in love with Kira. Then he just ditches her. He used to think that the Great Link was evil. Now that the war is over he wants to live with them. Then there was the way that Sisko "died." That could have been prevented if Kai Winn had just thrown that book in the fire without alerting Dukat that she was going to. Although they did have to make a heroic death for Sisko. I was surprised by how many bad reviews WYLB got. I didn't think it was that bad. It was better than the TNG finale which was a Picard only story. Come on give Berman some credit. He did a good job with DS9.
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You guys can whine all you want about the last ep "sucking", but, to me, it wasn't too bad, plus it is better than 99% of everything else on TV these days.
Some thoughts:
-Killing Sisko off really showed some guts on the writers part. Although they kinda left it open ended with the whole "I'll be back" thing, it was still gutsie to kill off the main character.
-Odo leaving to go back to his people seemed to make sence. All along Odo has felt that he missed being with his people and felt that he needed to learn more about his people, ect. DS9 spent a lot of time leading up to this point, si it really shouldn't shock anyone.
-Glad Garak didn't die. To many questions for him left to answer....(when I'm not sure).
-O'Brien the teacher? Seems believable enough. But can anyone say "Star Fleet Acadamy: Featuring Miles O'Brien"?
-Kira comanding the station now is excellent. Maybe this is one step closer to the Bajorians taking control of the station themselves w/o Starfleet present. Maybe one step closer to joining the Federation also.
-Although not in the last ep....Grand Nagus Rom? That rules! :-)
-What is Jake gonna do now?
-Worf leaving back to the Klingon empire works in DS9 terms, but what about the next TNG movie? -
I have a theory....
Weyoun mentioned that he was always wondering what ws under those Breen masks.
With the advent of her being able to wear a breen uniform, I think I have figured them out.
Section 31 is the Breen!!!
It all makes sense, they infiltrate the dominion, slowly watch them die,all while bringing the Feeration to it's knees so that Section 31 can have complete and total control.
That is all X-files like..way cool!
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This was such an appalling lack pf professionalism from everyone involved in making this rushed, half assed ending to this show. (See my post somewhere above here. It's up there a ways...)
You mean to tell me, during those hokey flashback moments for each member of the crew -(complete with sappy music: God, you know Star Trek has sunk to new lows when they resort to sit-com methods. Like I said in the earlier post, Star Trek has become nothing more than a glorified Soap Opera)
- You mean to tell me that Worf isn't going to remember ONE THING about the woman he LOVED and MARRIED?!?!!?!?! Utter rubbish!!!!
Also, this First Federation scares the beejeezus out of me: If Berman and Piller are involved, the I will run a riot against them. There is no way I want to see them write Star Trek's history in their own image. Don't do it! I don't want another Phantom Menace on our hands!
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Wemdog: Actually, according an earlier post, apparently Terry Farrel demanded a lot of money for them to use her image in any of the clips for the finale. I also thought it was lame that they didn't include her, but if this rumor is true, then I say good riddance. That would just be really petty of her.
On DS9: I agree with a lot of negative sentimentality of some of the posts. I also felt the finale was rushed and that things were not resolved well, especially the Sisko/Dukat confrontation and the Dominion surrender. Personally, I felt the TNG finale "All Good Things..." was far superior to this one. It was a much tighter story and the emotions felt more real to me. The DS9 was all over the board. There was no real cohesion to the plot and it really felt like things were kinda thrown together hastily. I admit though, that the flashback sequence was very touching, having been a long-time DS9 fan. -
All of the anticipation and build-up for what? I am not going to mince words and I will not try to pretend that this 2 hour series finale was something that it was not- it WAS terrible. I am disappointed and very embarassed for the writers, the actors and the fans.
The highly anticipated battle scene started out good, as expected, but quickly turned into a seemingly familiar space duel. There was an unbelievable lack of detail surrounding the new Defiant and we saw very few shots of Federation ally ships. With the exception of the Cardassian fleet turning on the Dominion, this final clash was far from anything special or even memorable, for that matter.
The death of Dumar was ridiculous. We are introduced to Dumar as a sidekick that eventually goes on to lead Cardassia. Somewhere in between the drunkeness and Dominion occupation, Dumar ascends to the role of heroic leader only to die a dull and meaningless death. Senseless.
Probably the most disappointing part of the entire finale was the departure of Chief O'Brien. Not because he left DS9, but the lack of feeling in the little hug that he and Bashir shared. From the Alamo and spy gigs to darts and dinner, the Doctor and Chief were beyond friends and the fashion in which these two seperated was insensitive and disgraceful.
And then there is Worf, the interstellar badass, taking on a role as ambassador? Are you kidding me? It is just a matter of time until Dorn publicly complains about the turnout of his character and how much he hates wearing all of that makeup...again.
For nearly 4 weeks Dukat and Winn were tucked away, waiting in the wings. Once every 15 minutes or so we got a brief glimpse of their flimsy roles in all this just to fit Dukat into an end-all battle with Sisko- A celestial fight that left me wishing even more for the return of TNG.
I found 'What You Leave Behind' to be poorly represented on every side of the story. There were no feelings or emotions where you would expect and ultimately seemed like clumsy hole-filling. Of all of the final episodes, this one was heralded as the "Trek of All Trek", but in my eyes it fell short of even Voyager. With the way that the story was unfolding, I too believed that Star Trek would finally meet a fantastic end, maybe the perfect ending, but the truth is this: Star Trek as we knew it is gone and will never return. At least not while Berman is at the helm.
I am no longer a fanatic...I am a customer.
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I have always had a theory regarding DS9. I have said for as long as the show has been on the air that nothing the writers do matters. People WANT to hate DS9 for some really odd reason. From the day this show was announced and Paramount said that it would be on a space station and not a starship people have been complaining. This show has been consistantly well written and well acted for seven years. It has surpassed Next Generation in quality by leaps and bounds. This is no small task either, because The Next Generation was an excellent series as well. The final episode brought all of the plot points and characters to thier logical ends. DS9 could not have had a more perfect finale. SO why is everyone complaining that it sucked? Cause it's DS9 and the fans are going to hate them no0 matter what they do. It has nothing to do with quality, it all has to do with the title. People are so lame they can't see past the words "Deep Space Nine". This is sad to say but it must be true because for 7 years I have watched the best show on television get nothing but undeserved disrespect. The show was excellent, and it will be missed.
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Well, it's over. I'm gonna miss it. All in all, DS9 has been the greatest, most risk taking showing in all of Trekdom. It had the first lesbian kiss in all of Star Trek history, (two actually), some of the funniest characters (those darn Ferengi!), some of the most gripping plotlines (the episode with the older Jake comes to mind, now that was great TV!), and one whoop-ass spaceship. Man, that Defiant!
Unfortunately the show had a great lead in for the finale but fell flat on its face in the end. The reason SIL (god bless that show and JMS, may all his children be born with silver spoons in their mouths and have really good teeth and wonderful teenage years) worked was that the final plot strings were tied up in the final few episodes (well, at least most of them). WYLB, however, had EVEN MORE plot threads open up, far too many to be closed in the two hours or so alotted for the finale. However, I had two major and I mean MAJOR problems with the finale. The first was the final battle, it ended too damn quick. All throughout the fight (was it a fight? Sisko was forced to the ground and then sort of jumped up and threw Dukat into the inferno. We in the literary field have a word for that: LAME. I needed to see the founders imbue Ben with some super powers, or something, but he just jumps up and throws Dukat into the fire. Sad, really sad.
The second problem I had was with the ending retrospective. The flashback sequence was sad, but not as sad as SIL's was. SIL was simple, not a montage. It showed the characters as they were when they first joined the show and how they were when they left, leaving the viewer to fill in the pieces in between. That was power, that was beauty. I cried the night I watched SIL. I really wept hard. I remember all the nooks and crannies of that show because it enveloped me, drew me into the world in which B5 existed (all scientifically accurate, which is more than I can say for ANY trek show). DS9 did something similar to me, but the retrospective didn't quite get me there. Some of the most crucial sequences (WORF'S) made little to no sense at all. But, to give credit where credit's due I have to give it to Jake's flashback, that one very nearly brought tears to my eyes. Seeing Cirroc Lofton age before our eyes through the magic of television was just that, magical. I remember what was going on in my life as the events in all of those episodes happened. Jakes flashback was the one saving grace of this ep.
In summation, many great shows have died this year. B5, Homicide, and now DS9. They will all be missed. The final shot of B5 comes to mind, as the Whitestars thunder over the heads of the production team. All of these shows deserve to have a final scene like that, a powerful final blast as the music swells and we leave the theater of the mind to return to our own little lives. Rest in Peace, Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, you will be missed greatly by many people. -
I've noticed a lot (two words, thank you very much) of B-5 vs. DS9 bashing occuring here and I figured I'd throw in my two cents worth. First of all, one argument I read that I don't feel is very accurate is that "B-5 fans hate DS9 'cause Trek is the majority" (or words to that effect). Majority or not it's a matter of tastes. B-5 offered a different kind of sci-fi than DS9, that's all. No better, no worse, just different. B-5 tended to be focused on continuing an arc. Each story intricately laced into the ones preceeding and following it. DS9 was episodic, at least until the last couple of seasons. Of course it had reoccuring themes, but not much of a continuing story arc. The character development tended to be different as well. B-5 had characters with many different sides. Not always completely good or bad. DS9 was hamstrung by the edict that "Star Fleet officers never show doubt or hesitation." They are almost always boy scouts and the darker side of human nature (addictions, infidelities, lust) weren't explored very deeply. No fault of the writers, a talented group who managed to turn out some wonderful work under extreme conditions, just something that was easily noticed. The major problem with episodic television is that it has to end every week. All problems must be resolved in a tidy little package so the viewer isn't left with any residual anxiety. This tends to cause the "Oh shit! We've only got ten minutes left!" syndrome. A problem that I noticed with DS9's finally. The Pah Wraiths...pushed off a cliff? A little too Deus Ex Machina, if you ask me. They built up this tremendous conflict for the last few weeks and then...pushed off a cliff? Ten minutes left. Everybody suddenly has an opportunity to go and they're gone that day? Come on. Didn't anybody on the writing staff do any time in the service? NO burocracy moves that quickly! Ten minutes left. B-5 at least used some realistic military procedures when they shipped their cast off. They set it up well in advance of the finally so that it made sense, and then they even allowed the characters to change over with their replacements. A bit better orchestrated than, "Hey Worf, I'm some Federation representative, wanna' be an ambassador?" Again, no burocracy works like this (kudos to the writing staff for the tie in with "All Good Things" though). It all boils down to taste. Personally I'm just a tremendous fan of science fiction. It's a great medium for writers to explore the best and worst of human nature without threatening their audience too much, and both B-5 and DS9 managed to capatalize on this. So, let's agree to disagree, but this senseless bickering over "My show can kick your shows butt" really is inane. If you disagree, good for you, if you don't...well...good for you too.
Cheers, ??Pseudo?? -
IRT WYLB. I thought it would have been interesting to have shown a tight shot of Sisko as an older man, camera pulls back to reveal not the Star Fleet officer we all know and love, but instead an older 20th century man reading from a book to his grand children. "But what happened to..." they ask and he could mention (montage time here) a brief bit about what happened to the officers of DS9, and, of course, "But that's another story for another time." THAT would have been a more interesting ending IMHO.
Cheers, ??Pseudo?? -
Two problems with the old man reading from the book: 1) it would rip off St. Elsewhere's finale, and 2) it would create all kinds of canon problems -- we know DS9 existed because it's cross-referenced in TNG and they affected past history in TOS. So we would have to admit those were made up too.
As far as the lame battle scenes and general lameness about the Defiant -- the reason they didn't do any tight shots was: 1) almost all the footage was from 3 years ago, and 2) they probably didn't bother to change the ship's markings. Think about it -- why'd they even bother going through blowing up the Defiant, only to give him an exact same ship AND change the name? I guess they were more ambitious when they scripted the destruction of the original Defiant, then realized they had $0 left in their budget, so they wrote it back in. At least in ST4 they replaced the original Enterprise with a different (although similar) ship. I agree with most of the postings above. Very, very, lame. What I don't agree with is that the show ever had any merit. One or two neat time-travel episodes don't justify the rest. -
And as far as making Worf an ambassador, that's one of the only choices that made sense -- it tracks the TNG finale (even though it doesn't have too -- the future is unwritten), and it opens Worf up for less contrived appearances throughout the various Trek incarnations (can you say "Unification"?).
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Why didn't Odo just impersonate the female changeling and tell the troops to stand down?
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Bitch! Bitch! Bitch! I am pleased that I have had the ability to watch shows of the caliber of TNG, VOYG, DS9, and BAB5 on television at all. Would you have preferred Days of Our Lives, One Life to Live, All
My Children, and Gilligan's Island reruns? I for one will HAPPILY continue to tune in to Voyager, Earth:Final Conflict, First Wave, 7 Days, and any other Sci-Fi shows and movies that come along, for I am a fan of Science Fiction! Are any of these shows perfect? No. In fact, they are not all even good (i.e. Philadelphia Experiment II, or I Come in Peace). But then, what TV show or movie can equal a book and your own imagination? -
Oh, come on, Condorman111. They couldn't take the easy way out on EVERYTHING, could they?
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JLUVHWITT, turn off that darn cap lock.
Re Trek fans outnumbering B5 fans, who envy/dislike Trek fans in return, I've been watching Trek since TOS and also love B5. What does that make me, some kind of si-fi pyscho? There are many, many of us who like both shows, and appreciate what each bring to the genre. Don't try to divide us into camps...we won't go!
Re WTLB being a rip-off of SIL, didn't see it myself. If you're looking for it, you can find something to support your argument, I suppose. I wasn't/ain't/don't intend to/ looking for it.
All in all I liked WTLB. Was it perfect? No. Was it better than SIL? Not sure it's a fair question. I found myself somewhat more comfortable with the way most of the Trek folks ended up...IMHO SIL had a deeper flavor/savor of sorrow.
What really DID bug me was that Worf didn't think of his "first DAX" as he left the station. Parmount should have forked over the $$$ if that's what it took to use her image. -
Star Trek in all its forms has shown us that race is inconsequnsial in the future. Sisko was not a black man, he was a MAN. The same is true of Geordi LaForge. Never did the writers write those chracters as "the bllack guys" just as Sulu was never written as "The Asian guy". Sure, thier culture played a part of who they were but no more then the other characters. Star Treki is simply not about race. It's about humanity as a whole. The role of Sisko was original written for Richard Dean Anderson, a WHITE man. It was only after he passed on the role that Avery Brooks stepped in. This proves that Sisko was NEVER written as a black man. It Didnt matter WHAT his race was. Star Trek tells us to look past such petty difference such as skin tone and we would all do well to learn from that lesson.
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Man, I can't say how much it sucked! The writing was flat, the plotlines were recycled, the acting was horrible, and that Jar-Jar Binks is the most annoying character I've ever seen!
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I didn't see them in this list, I was looking forward to hearing what was changed. Personally, I was disappointed that paramount didn't just pay the money to use the original Jadzia's image, that was a big disappointment, because she was a great character. I am finding myself appreciating the show more now than I did when it wasn't ended. I did think Sisko's plunge into the abyss and how the first one...err... the prophets pulled him out, were a bit... um... suspect, a bit too close to B5. But then I guess that's goes a long way to credit B5 for what a fine show B5 was if I now find myself comparing all other things to that show. I thought Garek's characterization near the end was, ummm... rushed. I was disappointed in his outburst, it didn't feel right, for some reason. I didn't need the characters to state outright the irony of Cardasia being occupied by a hostile force which was juxtaposed with the Bajoran incident, but then, in Star Trek it seems like they tend to over explain even their deepest plotlines, which is a shame (and perhaps why I liked b5, it left something to the imagination). All in all I really liked the show, though some of the plot devices were "flimsy" like the book being destroyed would imprison the wraiths forever? C'mon... I was annoyed with Kira just giving up Odo, but I was glad to see the founders saved... (I totally called that one... ;)
Anyhow, good show, a bit long, and I hate Vic Fontaine or any holocharacter, so I could have done without that whole section... or the memories montage...
Best regards, Raymond -
I will admit wholeheartedly -- I am a Babylon 5 afficionado. I have watched Trek all my life, and i do love it too, just not as much. Trek should have a future, B5 (already over, and with the current reviews on Crusade) is gone. With all the debate on the endings for both shows, it is not fair to judge SIL if you have not watched the B5 story. I was very impressed with the finale of DS9, but it pales in comparison with SIL. They are completely different, but it seems that the people who stand behind "What we leave behind" thought that is was 'emotional' , touching, etc. Yes, it was, but not on the magnitude that was presented in Babylon 5. Destruction of the Cardassian Homeworld? What about the bombing of Narn by the Centauri and the eventual destruction of Centauri Prime by the agents of the Shadows? Odo and Kira separating, it pales in comparison to reationship held between Sheridan and Delenn. If you cannot relate to these memories then do not criticize B5, for it encompasses more than DS9 or Trek in any respect has acheived yet. They are completely different shows, and all Trek shows still have the basic Trek format -- as outlined by the Starfleet code of ethics, etc. It is getting old. B5 was much needed fresh blood and it was good and bad to see DS9 take aspects of it and integrate it into its storyline. What I am trying to say is both shows definitely merit attention from any Sci-Fi fan. Unfortunately, B5 needs to be watched fully and chronologically, it plays more as a long Sci-Fi epic or novel. And therein is why it scares away audiences and people who join in midseasons. TNT is the anti-christ and damn them for two hours of saturday programming so that no new people will EVER watch B5 and for screwing Crusade even if it might be bad. I am loking forward to the next Roddenberry series as well as the next season of Earth: Final Conflict.
---There's my two cents on things, I only hope someone was paying attention :-) -
There's not a whole lot to say that hasn't been said already, but a few things bugged me.
Basically, the DS9 folks don't _do_ anything here. They command a ship in a big battle. That's nice. Sisko (sort of) defeats the Pah-Wraiths by...being told what to do by Winn, having a bad attitude, and throwing himself off a cliff. Geez, I could have done that - call me "Emissary."
(And was it just me, or did the final Sisko/Dukat confrontation bear a striking number of resemblences to Mitchell vs. Kirk and "Where No Man Has Gone Before"?)
Odo (kinda) ends the war, but whatever he said to the Female Shapeshifter is left unsaid - wouldn't want the writers to have to...well, write, would we? Does anybody really have any more of a feel for the Shapeshifters, the Dominion, and what happens now, then they did before watching this episode? Why would the Fem Shifter surrender to an organization that she now knows (thanks to Odo's memories and the Link) are more then willing to commit genocide on her people?
Kira (sort of) leads the rebels on Cardassia, but once stuff got rolling there, and the resistance cells were wiped out, she really got moved to the background as (rightfully) Dumar and Garak took over.
Vic Fontaine contributed more to the events of the final episode than the main characters (does Darren have compromising pictures of Berman or something - why did he keep getting asked back?!?).
Overall, it closed out the series, but the writers seemed so determined to have the characters "move along" that they didn't dwell much on what they were doing in the here and now. -
If you go to Dukat you will die.
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THe first episode was good, but the problem I had with it was with the entire battle sequences with the Federation and alien
aliances on the offensive with Cardassia. Reminded of the 4th season ending of Babylon 5 where Sheridan takes a fleet to dethrone
Clark, who ends up turning his weapons on his own planet. Deep Space Nine has never had a great action sequence, except
maybe for the one where the Defiant was destroyed. The Winn plot didn't feel very energetic, but I feel there is a build up to the final
ep. Dukats death was the biggest and best surprise so far. I never felt trek had a bold move to end a character that they built up
without a chance of resurrection. I think the idea of Garak taking power is great. The Gul getting knifed in the end was deserving,
those kind of people with shifty intentions/hippocrits deserve their fate. The Weyoun sequence saying that he sent the soldiers to
battle away from protecting the founder was weak. He is too smart a leader to do that, but it was also usual trek of taking a
convenient way to get the resistance in the base. But the idea of the cardassian resistance changing from a military to civilian
assault was great. But what happened to the Romulan commander when the meetiing occured, his people are dying doesn't he
have a right to know whats up. Interesting note: all the other races seem like they are becoming less tyrannical or corrupt
(Cardassian, Klingons, Ferengi), but the Federation itself is becoming darker. If we go with the tradition of having the starfleet
leaders represent the Federations ideals, the Sisko is turning into a manipulator like Section 31, in order to do whats best (and
then you have Admiral Ross who seems to be a manipulator and a coward--from his alliance with Sloane and his unwillingness to
take the offensive on the Dominion. I guess this shows the idea that when people fight to keep a noble concept against evil, you run
the risk of doing anything corrupt to get what you want, like the Federation (whose leaders seem to keep quiet about the Founders
virus. Can anyone tell me why an idiot like Rom got the position of Grand Nagu, yes he is good hearted and yes he does
sometimes have brilliant insights. But generally he can't keep thing together, and he is prone to becoming manipulated. We already
know that if the ferengi leader himself is not duplicitous then he will be killed or betrayed. The entire idea of a new honest
Ferenginar seems BS, they are supposedly the galaxy's bankers, this would lead to so many financial problems throught the
galaxy. -
Well, now that it's quieted down, I'll say my bit. I liked most of the finale, but I admit, it was not THE best way to end such a distinguished run (Duet, The Visitor, Pale Moonlight, et al.), what with the choppy writing (Goddammit, there MUST be a better way for Ben Sisko to know what's happening - he's felt a disturbance in the Force twice now, and it still looks dumb!), schmaltzy flashback montages (I swear, my first thought about the music was, 'Holy shit, it's Disney-fied!'), and the just plain poorly thought out Prophet/Paghwraith conclusion. Having just rewatched Emissary, I can see how they may have wanted, and even tried, to end it. The damned writers just didn't have what it took. They're all burnouts - Moore, Behr, all of them. Their creative juices have run out. They must go. At any rate, this show, overall, was infinitely better than Voyager ('course, Space Precinct was better than the Janeway incompetence hour), better than Next Gen (yeah, I'm a hard core Niner), and almost, ALMOST on the level of the Original Series (still the best!). So, I will toast the show that was, and let time heal the memory of the festering wounds that were Ferengi episodes and all the other missteps of the writers. !Salud! BTW - We'll miss you, De Kelley. Damn, why'd you have to go now?
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I thoroughly enjoyed the DS9 finale. It had an air of closure and completion which Next Generation did not have. The Sisko ending was wonderfully done. And it makes sense, since he is the son of one of the Prophets it is only natural that he would end up there. My friend Dave disagress, but then he doesn't like that mysticism which DS9 brought to the Star Trek universe. Deep Space Nine was a vibrant, intelligent show which captured the spirit of the nineties just as the original captured the spirit of the sixties. I think that is is impossible to compare the Star Trek shows to one another; however, Deep Space Nine can clearly be called one of the greatest sci-fi shows in the history of television. Thank you to the creators, cast and crew for giving us a truly enjoyable and thought provoking show for seven years.
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