Cool News
AICN Tabletop: Dungeons & Dragons 4E is in stores today and a look at Keep on the Shadowfell!!
Hola all. Massawyrm here.
The clock struck midnight and it was nothing but WHITE HOT NERD FURY for a solid hour as the line of pent up greasy dorks finally clasped their sweaty hands around the fourth edition rulebooks they have so long craved. That’s right, baby. The Dragon’s Lair had a midnight release party, selling roughly 100 sets in the extra hour they stayed open for the diehard geeks who not only couldn’t wait just to own the books, but also had to rush home to make their first 4E characters. It was like a Halo release party without all the guys who think they’re “hardcore” or “just normal guys who like video games.” No, the great thing about D&D gamers is that we know exactly who the fuck we are. We have no illusions. And we wear that shit with pride.
Yep, the day is finally here. All the hollering, screaming, crying and begging for tidbit scraps are over. D&D 3.5 is officially a piece of geek history, love it or loathe it, and 4E is the now. You can finally go out and buy your own copy of the Dungeons & Dragons Players Handbook, Dungeon Masters Guide and Monster Manual. Unlike last time around with 3E, they made the wise decision to drop all three books on the same day, rather than making us wait with each book released a month apart. That was a very special cluster fuck of its own back in the day.
So you’ve got your books, your dice and maybe you’ve even dropped some cash on some of those great D&D Minis. What now? Well, if you’re asking that question, odds are you’ve either jumped in head first as a curious first timer – or your one of the many who decided to get back in after years out. Perhaps then it’s time to invest in a thing called an “adventure” – what we used to call…a MODULE. I miss modules. Sigh.
The first adventure, labeled H1, is Keep on the Shadowfell - which is designed to take your players from levels 1-3. Initially released as a ramp up to the release, it contains starter characters and basic rules to introduce the curious to the game a month out while teaching new players the ins and outs of D&D. Sadly, due to real-life craziness, I ended up getting this late (this is a part of the CATCH UP I was referring to last week) and felt that since the die hard curious types were already going to buy this, reviewing this would be best suited to the new or returning gamers.
The Ups.
Keep on the Shadowfell is a perfect example of how to structure a 4E adventure. If you are wondering as a DM how to set up encounters, how to make them interesting or what the pacing of a 4E encounter chain should be like, this will show you. The writing of the adventure itself is geared towards beginning players, explaining the mechanics of what is going on while giving plenty of leeway for the Dungeon Master to play around with the story that best suits his or her players. There’s lots of descriptive text that leaves plenty of dangling plot threads if you want them, and there are a number of “what-if” scenarios taking certain odd solutions into account. As an adventure, it is designed solidly and gives the DM a lot of the tools you need to take it from beginning to end, no matter what your experience level.
The book comes with 3 full color double-sided maps, a book of characters (at this point useful if your players are first timers or simply can’t decide on what they want to play) and the 80 page adventure guide itself. I actually quite enjoyed running the adventure, which has some fun threads, but most importantly, a wild finish of a climax that certainly hints at who the major villain of the long adventure chain is going to be. I’ll give you a hint, he’s about the nastiest thing in the Monster Manual. Yeah. Oh, and you old Grognards will appreciate the resemblance the setup of the keep shares with another, distinctly famous lvl 1-3 adventure…called Keep on the Borderlands. Interestingly enough, Keep on the Borderlands was the adventure path I used for a spell while playtesting low end 4E.
There are also a few supplemental bits on the Wizards of the Coast site: There’s this 6th character for the adventure and then there’s my favorite piece, a really fantastic skill challenge for the final battle in case your characters decide to get REALLY creative. That second link will show you what you can really do with skill challenges, especially on the fly when your players do something…wacky. I just had a similar instance happen in a game last week when my players pulled out a Liches phylactery and began negotiations with a vampire opponent for it. It was a completely unexpected, but I used this model and ran the diplomacy attempt as a skill challenge. Whether you pick up Shadowfell or not, I highly recommend checking out the setup for the skill challenge. It should open your eyes to how usefull these things can be.
The Downs.
The biggest complaint about the adventure is that despite coming with three maps, two are reprints from the previous Fantastic Locations adventures. If you were a fan of those like I was, you have both maps. And while they were good maps, only one of them (The Kings Road) is one I actually wanted more than one of (so I could combine them into one, LONG road for large encounters.) The third map is still pretty damned sweet, however. This is one of those features more for the new DMs than it is for us grognards.
If you’re not a fan of goblinoids or kobolds, this adventure is definitely not for you. Because that’s what this is. Kobolds, kobolds and more kobolds, followed by goblins, hobgoblins and the occasional sprinkling of other monsters. If you’re one of those guys who was hoping for something a little more original, this adventure will not do it for you. It harkens back to the old school in which you cut your way through the first few levels by putting sword tips through the vertically challenged denizens of the D&D world. Although don’t for one minute think that this fact makes this a cakewalk.
As many folks have written about already, encounter A3 is a big, giant TPK (Total Party Killer) waiting to happen. It’s a 6th lvl encounter at a time when your heroes are most likely 1st level. And it ain’t pretty. Smart groups of experienced players will see this for what it is, do the mental math and beat a hasty retreat – returning for some hit and run maneuvers to clear the area. But new players or particularly cocky ones are going to die very quickly and very badly. I found it best to tell my players before we started the adventure that there would no doubt be TPK encounters in the game and not to be afraid to retreat if need be. Fortunately, they recognized the massive ugliness that is encounter A3 and made it out. I’ve heard of many parties not so lucky. Is this going to be 4E’s Tomb of Horrors? That depends on how many people get frustrated. But it very well could be. I’ve heard of groups running the encounter three and four times until their parties got it right.
The Verdict.
It’s a good start to the chain. I like where the story is going and I’m eager to run the next adventure Thunderspire Labyrinth. But it’s mostly a good tool for new DM’s to get a hang on how to run a solid adventure. Experienced players might find it a little too vanilla for their tastes (until the final battle, which really is pretty damned cool.) And the $30 price tag is a little steep for those ending up with duplicate maps. But if you’ve got your books and you’re unsure of where to go from here, this is a pretty great place to start.
So any of you out there hit up a Midnight release, or get a happy package from Amazon? What are your 4e thoughts? Light up the talkback below with your adoration or frustrations.
Until next time friends, smoke ‘em if ya got ‘em.
Massawyrm
Got something for the Wyrm? Mail it here.
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You're getting unfairly crapped on by posters today dude. Don't pay attention.
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someone plays D and D still?
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Um...yeah, considering Wizards of the Coast sold out of the 4e core books before they even went on sale, and had to go back for a 2nd printing a couple of days before the release date, I'd say that yeah, "someone" plays D&D still.
And as Massawyrm say, we wear it with pride.
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I find it hard to believe that a D&D purist, as you claim to be, would be so enamored by 4E. Yes it streamlines some rules and mechanics but by selling it's soul to the masses of 10-14 year olds who are coming off WoW or any other recent MMORPG. That has never really been the D&D "Core Demographic". The "Diehard Geeks" you refer to are at least 21 and up and are more likely the 25-35 crowd who has the money and invested interest to play this game. Many a D&D'er will excitedly pick up the 4E books today thinking that 3.0-3.5 has been "fixed" only to find that it has morphed from traditional D&D to "you want it now, you got it" type of game play where everyone can heal, cast spells and fight in just about equal terms. 4E is not my father's D&D, hell it is not even MY D&D but few people realize that all you need to "fix" 3.5 are minor tweaks and not a brand new edition that rips the soul away from the game Gygax built in order to sacrifice it to the Gods of the "I want it now" age and the disciples of WoW.
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God bless amazon and their speedy shipping!
I think I'm right in the middle of the core audience for D&D, I've never DM'ed before and have an active WoW account. That's not to say I'm a tabletop newbie, I've been rolling D10's for near 20 years now but always found the dedication required to put my imagination down on paper a bit to overwhelming. From reading Massa's articles it sounds like 4E is exactly the right jump-in point for me, and with the recent success of online RPG's I think a lot of other people will agree. -
I've been P&P RPG'ing for 20 years. And I've done my time w/ EQ, DAoC, and WoW. If D&D has been turned into a P&P version of WoW, that will suck. With 3e, I was starting to be willing to play D&D (I don't do ed 1 or 2), rather than my beloved (tho nowhere near perfect) Palladium Books system.
I wish WotC the best of luck! -
I think 4E will do well. It is geared for a younger audience.Unfortunately, it doesn't appeal to an old guy like me. I only bought the 4E PH, but that was enough to turn me off. When all characters can do everything, what's the point?Do you want to be a Fighter or a Cleric? What's the difference?!?Also, I can't believe the 3 Core Books aren't really the only Core Books. Additional Player's Handbooks, DM Guides, and MMs to be released every year? So this PH I bought isn't the only PH? There's going to be more every year?Greedy.
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I loved running that back in the day! level 12-14 characters getting the asses handed to them by kobolds is too funny! Those "vertically challenged denizens" pack a HUGE punch if used right like in that adventure! I must have run it 4 or 5 times and no one made it through, and I'm a soft DM!
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and this is coming from a DnD geek. Anyone else think that DnD jumped the shark once it left the hands of TSR?
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I'm pretty sure Wizards of the Coast taking a colossal dump on his baby and the kid-friendly pussification of D&D is what ultimately killed Gygax. If Lucas and his "special editions" of Star Wars raped your childhood, then consider WotC's 4th Edition a rectum-ripping sodomy of your teenage and college years.
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Harn Harn Harn !!!! Love the system.
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I heard they ditched Gnomes and Half Orcs are player races, and Bards and Monks. I know a guy who plays a Gnome Bard who may be a bit upset. I actually play a Half-Orc Sorcerer. *shrug* Oh well, I wasnt planning to go to 4E anyway, since my main gaming group were playtesters and hated it. If they change their minds, I may. I'm just spending, or not spending, my money where the rest of the group does.
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..going to be about D&D 4e? If so why not just call it "AICN D&D Report"? I understand that it was just released but it is not the only game out there.
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Nope. But it JUST came out, like TODAY just came out, and 4E is the reason this column exists. I've got lots of other stuff coming in that I'll be talking about.
Testicals - 4E was designed to be picked up by beginners and enjoyed. The mechanics are very simple and have a quick learning curve - something some older players are upset about. They like the more complicated ruleset. -
Gnomes are not in the players handbook as a playable race, but the information is in the Monster Manual if you still want to use them. Half-orcs will probably show up soon as a D&D Insider article and later in a rulebook. Barbarians, Bards, Druids, Monks, and Sorcerers are on a temporary hiatus (and will probably show up in a future PHB).
I know a lot of folks are complaining about how they cut classes out of the PHB, but once you see the book, you understand why. Each class takes up more space in the book (between the basic class features and several pages of powers and paragon paths per class).
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For all of you who really want to continue to play real D&D check Paizo's Pathfinder out. They are the only company who will continue to support 3.5 D&D rules. They are also "fixing" everything that was "broken" in the 3.0-3.5 rule set.
Massa - "The mechanics are very simple and have a quick learning curve - something some older players are upset about. They like the more complicated ruleset."
Wrong once again Massa. The 3.5 rules are not complicated. If you can read a book you can learn the rules, it is that simple. Which I think is fantastic since the average player who will be attracted to 4th Edition has probably not read a book in quite sometime since they tend to be longer than some MMORPG instruction manuals. 4th Edition has "simplified" things but that does not mean that it has improved them, quite the contrary actually.
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I didn't mean to come off as being completely negative. I understand that the reviews of E4 started the ball rolling on this column and that it just came out today...... but it is all that this series has talked about so far. Nothing but D&D.
I was hoping that even with the main part being about the release of D&D E4 there still would have been some other news about a different game at the very least.
Regardless, I like the series and the articles have persuded me to at least check out this newest version. I started with D&D back before it became AD&D and haven't played it since 2nd Edition.
......and artvanderlay-Funny that you read the entire article, then the posts and then replied just to take a knock at people who enjoy tabletop gaming. Keep on believing the stereotypes about gamers while pissing on other peoples work and their hobbies if it makes you happy. Keep believing you are better than everyone else but know that everyone in the world is a nerd for something.
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ILS -then you missed last weeks column about Warhammer 40k 5E and the new Demons release then? LOTS of stuff in the pipe. Pathfinder, Mutant Chronicles, WoW adventure game, 40k 5E, some smaller press stuff...plenty.
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If I wanted to play WoW, I would be online! What the hell are the morons at WOTC thinking! The 4e system is flawed beyond fucking belief, and to make matters worse, in an effort to attract the, younger, special-ed generation "Y" crowd, they really "dumbed-up" the whole game system. They are Fucking retards! I hope one day the people in charge of D&D will actually be "gamers" instead of piece of shit marketing faggots who just want to sell units to fantasy-hungry geeks. How dare they! Its' a good thing Gary Gygax is dead, becuase I know he would not have taken this shit lightly.
P.S. to all you geeks out there, save your money, cuase' after all 4.5 will be out in less then a year. FUCK YOU WOTC! -
Still, that was the only break from what seems to be non-stop D&D E$ coverage.
It is nice that this article took it to the next step and talked about Shadowfell. There was some really good info provided and as I said before this entire series has made me interested in actually checking it. It's funny to see everyone crying over the changes being made to D&D. As you get older you realize that everything changes. If WOTC didn't change D&D many of the same nay-sayers would be complaining the WOTC isn't keeping up with current RPGs by updating. Still it is too bad that they released such a new version since 3.5 only recently came out. However, if you don't want to play the new version the simple thing to do is not play it. WOTC can't make you update your game. -
I will probably check it out as a matter of curiosity. I'm in the middle of a long 3.5 campaign (Age of Worms- as a player this time) so my group won't be switching over any time soon - if ever. I have several hundred dollars worth of 3rd and 3.5 material. However, as a DM trying to build his own adventure, I must say, 3.5 was an exercise in tediousness. Adding templates to monsters, giving them class levels, working out the skill points, feats, etc, etc- it took friggin forever. As a player, I enjoy complextity- I master the system and build the most efficient character (who also happens to have a cool story line etc, and can kick some serious ass) as A DM I want things simple as possible mechanically so I can focus on cool environments, story lines, personalities etc. Running a module is no biggie, but creating an adventure from scratch in 3.5...oy vey.
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Holy CRAP. I had heard they deleted Bards and Monks. I could understand Bards since they sorta suck. I couldnt fathom Monks. But Barbarians, Sorcerers and Druids?! GOOD GRIEF!! Is this real? My main characters in the campaigns our group plays in are 2 different Sorcerers (one is a Half Orc), a freakin' Bard in another campaign, and a Druid in our high level game. What the HELL yo. :) And in the game where I'm one of the sorcerers, one party member is a Barbarian, and the other is a Cleric/Monk! That killed off our entire campaign! Why couldnt they drop Paladins? :) Oh well, we probably werent going to play 4E. now its a sure thing that we wont, at least until we retire all our current campaigns.
Lewis
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That's what I & most of the folks I play with thought that 3e did - updated the rules to be more similar/east to understand in relation to other P&P RPGs. Hence why I was willing to consider playing it (I've also played PB stuff, and some GURPS-system, as well as StarWars, both old version & d20).
^p
Massawyrm - are you going to continue to cover non D&D tabletop RPG stuff? After all, Origins is around the corner. -
I've never even played D&D (Rifts, TMNT, yes) but this new release makes me want to.
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that you use rules and elements from different editions? Basically house rule back in the rules that you feel work better in the newest edition you are playing.
I played old school WEG Star Wars RPG and loved it but didn't like the revamped WOTC SWRPG and didn't plan on playing their second version. I ended up giving it a try anyway and found that I like it the better than even the old WEG version. The same happen with D&D. I started with the original, moved to AD&D 1E and thought that it couldn't get better. When 2E cam out I thought that they were insane but quickly loved the fact that it was a more solid game but we included the rules we still loved. I have never played any of the E3 or E3.5 stuff and wonder how it compares to 1E and 2E stuff. -
The "powers" that martial (i.e. fighters, rogues, rangers, warlords) have are non-magical in nature, and at low levels are typically nothing more than advanced manuever combos (a power that lets a fighter knock back their foe with their shield, a power that lets a rogue quickly circle their enemy while attacking). At higher levels, the powers stretch into the realm of Wuxia-like feats, but this is at a point where the characters are fighting appropriately fantastic foes.
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It sounds like you would be in the same boat as me regarding 4E - it takes power away from the players in regards to "tweaking" out their characters, but at the same time empowers DM's with a great set of tools for creating adventures and opponents. I think I'll be more comfortable with the character building rules once there are more options to choose from (even though you usually get to pick a new power or feat at every level, sometimes the choices available aren't entirely appetizing).
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I don't care if a level 14 fighter can cast some healing spells. If I ambush the group with a couple of black dragons, they will need all the healing they can get! Can't wait to get started! I sent some of your early reviews to my players and they all want tostart up again after a 7 year break.
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I think the hardcore gamers hereabouts have to get over it. Sorry, these rules are not meant for you. They're meant for newbies, which is GOOD. Because it means they're trying to get a new generation of kids interested. Kids who get most of their fantasy gaming from stuff like WoW, whether you crufters like it or not. What boggles my mind is that it's not as though those old rules are now obsolete. If you prefer a more complicated precursor to 4E, use it. Your books aren't going to spontaneously combust, are they? No? So shut up already and go back to your gaming table content in the knowledge that nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to buy the new books or play by the new rules. Personally, having not gamed in forever, I'll be glad to play Keep on the Shadowfell next weekend with some old friends using rules meant for me: forgetful players of yore.
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I have to admit it has been over 10 years since I played D&D. However my first and second edition books are still proudly displayed on my bookshelf. I was a hard core player well into my thirties, I help host the old TSR chatroom when TSR had a site on AOL, hitting every game convention I could find in Michigan.
I never transitioned to 3rd edition rules. At the time I saw the new rule set as a money squeeze from TSR/WotWC. I wasn't about to pay 20+ dollars a pop for another PH, DMG and Monster Manual to sit next to the other two sets I already had. I know 3rd edition was a total overhaul of the old rules, but I never had that big of a problem with the old rules.
I have to admit I am curious to see how the rule set have evolved over the last decade. If the rules have been simplified as much as people say they have, it shouldn't be too much trouble to convert the new adventures to the old 2nd edition rules. Hell I might even see if the 3rd edition stuff goes on sale now and check that out too.
Now if I could only find some people to game with again. Is the RPG Network still around? =) -
So, after reading and posting here, I went by Books a Million with the intent to just buy it anyway, simply to own it. MAN it is AWFUL. Well it is awful for what I want. First of all, The Wizard is Dead. Sure, there is an entry in there called "Wizard" but it isnt a Wizard. It is basically a Sorcerer. Now, I complained in a previous post that 2 of my characters in 3.5 are Sorcerers, and I was irritated there are no Sorcerers in 3.5E. However, now that I skimmed it, I see that Wizards are really just Sorcerers renamed. Wizards are GONE. Every non-combat aspect of all characters ... gone (except maybe 4 skills, such as Diplomacy and Nature and History). I've been playing Sorcerers because in 3.5E Wizards are already the red-headed step children. In 4E, the Wizard is dead and Sorcerer is renamed Wizard. It is only about selecting a combat option or two as you level up. No longer does plane shifting, speaking languages, casting intricate spells, planning in advance, researching spells, or any of the esoteric cool world and environment shaping aspect of the Wizard important at all, and arguably, thats what the Wizard WAS. Its all gone. Same for Clerics too. If you liked the spells that were about anything other than combat and healing, its all gone folks. They tossed my favorite alignments too (CG, CN, LN, and LE). The only slightly detail the non-evil gods though they list some evil ones. Basically, 4E is exactly the watered down "this wouldnt work except in a tabletop roleplaying game so we wont implement it" stuff you'd see in, say, a Gold Box D&D Computer Game Manual. What I'm saying is that the Player's handbook is simply a list of brief entries you'd see in a computer game manual. A few names. A few attack powers. A list of loot. Done.
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I meant to say I was irritated there were no Sorcerers in 4E. Just correcting a typo there.
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You missed the part in back called "RITUALS." The abilities you read were just the in combat, immediate spellcasting. The SPELLS...the things that make a wizard different from everyone else...are called Rituals and require time and resources to cast. In other words, non-combat, role playing, game based stuff. The wizard is far from dead, my friend. Far from dead indeed. In fact, if anything, it allows wizards to be focused upon UTILITY, as they never have to decide between a fireball or a story based spell.
Go back to the store and skim Rituals. It's in the back. -
But I can't really say much, since I used to play the crap out of Neverwinter Nights on my PC.
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In this day and age, a DM's guide for an RPG needs a copyright/derivative work FAQ right off the bat for what the publisher will and won't allow before people start pouring their imaginations into creating adventures. The rules look like they are designed to be a link into other products: minatures (I hate the grid with a passion), cards and WOW-ish MMORPGs. It's more a sequel to the minis game than to earlier pencil and paper games. I understand that's the way the business works, but it really hurts to see. I dislike the general power inflation when you try to mix with old rules (unless you multiply old creature hp by about 8) and the character classes are too interchangable for my tastes (nice thing about old rules were that people who wanted a simple game played fighters and people who loved bookkeeping played wizards). The skills and feats rules seem clumsy now - if they've gone this far, I think they should have just gone all the way and rolled them into the format of the class powers as simply a new column of ability. However, all these points having being said, I'll probably give them a little more of my money because it's different enough to get me curious where it leads. I just worry that the copyright/licensing is toxic.
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throne should check out 'Castles & Crusades' by Troll Lord Games. Gygax did most of his final work writing and consulting for them.
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No, older books aren't going to spontaneously combust and WotC isn't exactly forcing anyone to adopt 4th Edition. However, WotC will no longer be supporting 3.5 Edition, which many people justly find annoying. It's akin to Microsoft saying they'll no longer offer Windows XP support now that Vista is out. And everyone knows that Vista sucks ass. Sure, there's probably a small percentage of people who love it, and maybe an equal number who've grudgingly accepted it, but the rest of us want nothing to do with that godawful piece of shit. Same goes for 4th Edition D&D. WotC isn't making us upgrade, but they'll no longer be supporting us either. And, quite honestly, I'd have fewer complaints about 4th Edition - and it's obvious appeal to short attention span kids - if they were treating it like a beginner's version of D&D, something to get newer players into the game, while still supporting 3.5 for the core gamers who've supported WotC and D&D over the years. However, like Microsoft, WotC realizes that fewer people will embrace the new crap unless they completely drop support for the older, better predecessor.
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As someone who played, wrote material for and enjoyed D&D 3.5e, i have to say that all this talk of 4e being "dumbed down" and "WoW on paper" is crap.
If you've really read the rules (read, not skimmed) and tried the game, you'd realize the biggest major difference between the rulesets is this:
3.5e focused on individual character optimization. 4e focuses on group dynamics and optimization.
No one character can be the ubermensch that does everything while everyone else feels bored.
There was a lot of that in 3.5e...I was on both ends of it - as a writer and a player.
This system emphasizes the group.
Is it simpler? Sure. Is it dumbed down? I'll admit, there are a couple of places where I felt things were oversimplified, but for the most part, no. Things are simply intuitive. They fit the new system.
I'm not telling ANYONE they have to enjoy this system, but geez, if you're going to pick it apart, at least get some concrete examples and stop falling back on the same old schtick. -
I pretty much have to completely agree with you. There is exactly three things in the new edition of the game that make me think of WoW and most of them are trivial. 1) They attempt to balance classes against each other. 2) Encounter powers are like WoW abilities with a 5-minute cooldown. 3) Elves are tall and muscular. Thats it. The first one is the only significant one, the others are just dressing.
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I wouldn't say that it's dumbed down - rather that being anchored to a grid makes it feel artifical and clunky, like a video game. Imagine a fight on, around and under a rickty runaway covered wagon bouncing down a winding road while trying to wrestle away the mystic gem ... then put it on a grid where someone says "I shift you one square". I'm not saying that sort of encounter can't be done, you pretty much run it the same way, but now you have to fight against the mechanics to do any non-trivial combat setting. Also, remember that in 1st-3rd ed, a lot of players picked a character to match their play style ("I just want to roll dice" players would pick a fighter, "I love a 100-page character sheet" players would take magic-users). The way the character class work now, there is variation for players who want different complexity of characters, just different roles in the party. It may well turn out that the new rules, at the end of the day, are a more interesting game for the majority of players, but I think you need to realize what a tremendous shock to the system it is for GM's to look at what impact 4th ed will have to the fabric of their worlds and they see a lone high level warrior/monster surrounded by a cheering section of 1st level warlords.
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The grid was an ESSENTIAL part of 3.5. Anyone who thinks that it magically appeared in 4E is deluded. Or have you forgotten about such grid required mechanics as Attacks of opportunity, 5' Adjustments, and the fact that every spell was designed with maps in mind...
Darkling Lord - that would be a legitimate complaint if you somehow required WotC support to keep playing. There are over 100 books out there, hundreds of thousands of pages of material. Your complaint isn't that you can't play anymore. it's that they're not making new stuff for you anymore. It's nothing like the Microsoft analogy. If Microsoft stopped supporting XP, then your computer wouldn't be able to do everything you need it to. 3.5 has everything it needs to be played an fully enjoyed. It is a complete system. -
What is "support" for a D&D game? I don't think the analogy really works. I mean, when have you ever been playing 3.5E and run into a problem that required "tech support" from WotC? Or are you talking about backup books like another edition of a Monster's Manual or something of the like and comparing it to a Microsoft Word which is Vista-only? I've never played 3.5E but from everything I hear there are a ton of books for it. So really, what else do you need? Did you get pissed off at Nintendo when the Super Nintendo came out and they stopped making Nintendo games? I think that's a better analogy. A lot of what I see from older players about 4E is whining and none of it sounds legit. You have plenty to work with if you still want to play by 3.5E rules. And if you're a clever fella, you can always find a way to convert new 4E books over to your older system. To stick with your analogy, you can just "hack" 4E.
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If you've got time and think you can answer this simply, I'd appreciate it. It's been a long time since I played and it was under 2E rules. I never played with a grid. I was a DM and frankly I ran it more like an interactive story. Maps were never my strength. How integral is a grid to 4E? Could I get away with not using it or am I going to have to adjust for it/hack the rules?
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Everyone I played with completely ignored the grid in 3E - it was not essential, it was a clunky optional rule that roleplayers threw out (like most people did with the 1st edition weapon-vs-armor adjustment table). But if you were to dissect my games, I suppose I could accept the argument that I haven't been playing D&D/d20 anyway.
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I remember reading Frostburn for idea purposes and I couldn't believe all the stats that the DM had to run through just for a player to walk across ice. Yikes.
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My group won't even touch anything 3rd Ed or later except for some augmentation to the current game, and the only books I can think of that we've used have been the Book of Vile Darkness and the Book of Exaulted Deeds. Some cool shit in both of those, particularly TBOVD.
I actually prefer Rolemaster for my campaign. -
I remember my mom told me I was going to Hell when she caught me playing D&D in middle school (1986? 1987?). About seven or eight years before, she kicked my brother out of the house for playing.
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Read through 4e and it's pretty lame.
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I'm really getting into the new Dark Herasy system too.
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I keep hearing version 4 is for kids with low attention spans. I'll tell you, though, this is the only version of D&D I've been interested in, and I'm not some 360-owning, anime-watching teenager or something. I just like a more structured game, and this seems to be that way. Not constraining (I feel like I have almost unlimited freedom) just more sturdy. Anyway, that's my impression as a total D&D noob.
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The healing surge undermines the cleric. A 30 Hitpoints level 1 character now has 100+ Hitpoints.
So, if you're a 3.5 player and want to upgrade (or downgrade) to 4E for free simply rip out 50% of your 3,5 books at random, hand your characters a dozen healing potions and that's 4E for you. -
IE- people 24-40 who played as kids/adolescents but let it drop off the map for a while. If 4E can get us back then what's there to complain about?
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Yes, for combat Harn rules and is deadly. Some gaming company should convert the old D&D classic modules to Harn rules. The perfect game wold combine Harn combat with D&D setting/magic/etc. But D&D (the D&D I used to play back in the '80s, 90s) is too soft on setting up a realistic pre-industrial feudal agrarian society, and that's what Harn really gets right.
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