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Brace For A Movie About The WACO Davidians...

Merrick here...
Rupert Wainwright (THE FOG, STIGMATA) is set to direct WACO...from a script co-authored by James Hibberd.
"Waco" centers on the 1993 stand-off at Waco, Texas, when the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives attempted to arrest David Koresh, leader of the Branch Davidian cult. Four ATF agents, Koresh and 76 of his followers died.
...says THIS ARTICLE in Variety. I've been wondering how long it would take The Powers That Be to get around to this. It's a tough topic and, depending on how realistically the subject matter is portrayed, it could be extremely difficult to watch (beyond the inherent political charge/emotional impact of the event). If you've ever stumbled upon images of people who died inside the compound (like the image HERE), you know what I'm talking about. The second most chilling moment of my life was sitting in a friend's living room on a sunny afternoon, getting ready to eat a hellish goulash of mac & cheese, tuna, and peas (a disgusting meal, but it was bachelor), watching Koresh's spread go up in flames. Throughout the entire standoff, I'd felt the matter would end badly...although in my wildest imaginings I hadn't conjured that. And, no, I couldn't eat. The project is being produced Mike McNulty (WACO: RULES OF ENGAGEMENT) and Emilio Ferrari.

Readers Talkback
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  • May 20, 2008, 10:49 a.m. CST


    by SpencerTrilby

    except for the director involved

  • May 20, 2008, 10:51 a.m. CST

    The original TV movie

    by sapno_krei

    What is whacked out to me was the fact that the original TV movie about the siege started filming BEFORE THE EVENT WAS OVER!!

  • May 20, 2008, 10:57 a.m. CST

    glad its not Gus VanSant.

    by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet

    yeah, could go either way. its pretty close to a lot of folks, so it will be interesting who gets involved and who protests and whatnot. but i guess every subject is close to someone.

  • May 20, 2008, 10:59 a.m. CST

    The Truth

    by orlandocfa

    IT's good to see that the guy who who made Rules of Engagement is involved so this won't be a pro government/anti zealot film. What the government did was wrong and the Davidians paid a horrible price. If you ever want to have your eyes opened to how abusive our government can be, check out Waco: Rules of Engagement. It will certainly make you think twice about what is going on with the FLDS down there right now.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:02 a.m. CST

    About time if you ask me...

    by SouthSide_2010

    I'd love to see a portrayal of this on the big screen. Anything as long as its better than that lame-assed piece of shit tv movie of the week that starred Tim Daly as David Koresh.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Mysterious Yobo

    by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet

    exactly.was it the evil government pushing itself on some folks who just wanted to be left alone? <p>or was the Devil in this man who was teaching children the best way to commit suicide, and someone had to stop it?<p>so glad i wasn't in Waco at the time. that shit was scary.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:10 a.m. CST

    'What the government did was wrong'

    by Adama77

    Meaning WHAT orlandocfa? The loons are gonna come out of the woodwork over this one. What did they do that was so wrong? Gatsby; "was it the evil government pushing itself on some folks who just wanted to be left alone?" They just wanted to be left alone with 150 weapons and 8000 rounds of ammo. How DARE the ATF try to arrest them? Some folks in the States are weird. This 'government is out to get us' shit is tired. Notice how all the people claiming to have 'done nothin wrong' (Waco, Ruby Ridge) usually had guns, and fired them at cops.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:12 a.m. CST

    Too Soon!!!!!

    by JumpinJehosaphat

    Wait... um... DON'T CARE!!!

  • May 20, 2008, 11:16 a.m. CST


    by greatmoose

    And there's nothing illegal about having 150 weapons and 8000 rounds of ammo. That's really not all taht much for a lot of collectors. Also, why didn't they just arrest him when he went for his (everyday) morning run? I lived in Waco at the time (still do, in fact) and even though it technically didn't even happen there (was 20 miles away), it really opened a lot of people's eyes to what the gov't is willing to do. Scary stuff.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:17 a.m. CST

    Thank you Adama

    by skimn

    I seem to recall the Davidians firing first upon ATF officers trying to serve a warrant to search for the artillary, including illegal weaponry, that was being stored. Oh please give me the right to bear arms argument when you have the weaponry for a small army.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:21 a.m. CST

    Nothing illegal - 8000 rounds of ammo...

    by Adama77

    to me THAT is scarier than "it really opened a lot of people's eyes to what the gov't is willing to do". What they're willing to do? That's like saying the President ordered them, right there, in person. It was the ATF. Let's not describe the actions of one law enforcement group as though it was the whole US govt there. I don't think this was some opressive 'evil plan' or whatever. They messed up with the rules of engagement, and that's sad. But they obviously felt they had a right to carry out their arrest warrants.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:21 a.m. CST

    Hydrogen cyanide gas

    by Razorback

    I doubt anyone making this movie will actually show what happened to those children once the CS gas started to burn and created the hydrogen cyanide gas that caused those horrific deaths.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:22 a.m. CST

    2nd most chilling?

    by jambone

    what a sheltered life Merrick

  • May 20, 2008, 11:23 a.m. CST

    There is ALOT to this story.....

    by Brians Life

    Personally, I believe Koresh was out of his freaking mind and was truly taking advantage of some very weak minded people. <br><br>The ATF was looking for ILLEGAL weaponry, so they had every right to search the property....I don't think we'll EVER know how and why that fire started. <br><br>The fact that the FBI was shooting people in the back as they were attempting to escape is certainly troubling.<br><br>The Feds shouldn't have treated it like a hostage situation. <br><br>The Davidians apparently didn't see themselves as such.<br><br>Wonder which side of the fence they'll take on this one.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:26 a.m. CST

    The ATF didn't need to go to the compound

    by Razorback

    The arrest was to be made on Koresh. They decided to do it there so they could have a big photo-op afterwards and show off the weapons they had found. Problem was that they would have had to have returned most of those weapons and ammo. So why do it?

  • May 20, 2008, 11:26 a.m. CST


    by morGoth

    Who wants to watch such a tragedy reinacted?<p>Bottom line...David Koresh was the one responsible for getting all those people (including the ATF agents) killed. Like Randy Weaver said after the Ruby Ridge fiasco was over, "I shouldda just gone with 'em that day." Yeah dumbass, and maybe your wife and son would still be alive today. Who in this Good Ol' US of Aay doesn't understand that when The Law comes to your door, you do as they say or people are liable to get killed. The court of law is where you protest your innocence/guilt, not your doorstep. If you shoot at the law, they will come back at you with overwhelming force. Simple as that...

  • May 20, 2008, 11:26 a.m. CST

    Footnote ; Off topic.

    by Adama77

    I'm not saying anyone here is like this - but as a Brit it never fails to astonish me, that in the richest, most powerful nation on earth - with what I assume is the greatest quality of life on offer - there are people who cook up conspiracy theories and say that 'the federal government is evil' / The FBI are Nazis etc etc. Example; If I never hear about Ruby Ridge ever again I'll be a heck of a lot happier. "They shot at us. Why, all we wanted to do was dodge my arrest warrant. Y'know, we figured y'd stay away if you knew we wuz up heah wiv rifles. Constitutional right to shoot cops and sech".

  • May 20, 2008, 11:28 a.m. CST

    Flame throwing tanks

    by Disgustipitated

    Anybody seen the footage of the tanks with flamethrowers moving in and spewing the place? Hmm...did the Davidians set that fire or...? How about the federal agent at the window who starts firing when some of their own people enter the room below? Hmm...did the Davidians do that? Friendly fire?

  • May 20, 2008, 11:29 a.m. CST

    No kidding

    by xevoid

    I was in Oklahoma in college watching the raid on TV as I was having my eggs and bacon for breakfast. All I could think was, about frikkin time. I was, and am, tired of religious cults, especially ones with weapons. The man was an end of days prophet, a wacko who thought, as I recall,t hat he was related to Christ. <br><br>History has shown us quite clearly that deification of humans, and weaponry , don't mix. For reference, see: The various Sunni and Shia cults in Iraq; the Ahmadi sect in Pakistan; The Mayan belief in their leaders as descendants of the Sun God. <br><br> What you won't hear from the media is that a large majority of the people who were really up in arms about what happened in Waco are themselves Fundamentalist Christians. It alarmed them because they thought they could be next. Yous ee a brother getting beat up by the Man and you think it could happen to you. Well, if you start stockpiling weapons in Texas and claiming the end of the world is nigh and start teaching kids about how to commit suicidewhen the Man comes for you, yes, you can expect to get raided. What happened in Waco didn't happen fast enough.<br><br>Two things we should learn from Waco.<br><br>1) If you are going to be a Millennial, prophet based cult with lots of sheeple following a single nutty leader, DONT DO IT IN TEXAS. (see: The Polygamists; the Branch Davidians). Do it in someplace safe, like Montana or Texas. Montanans or Californians don't care how nutty you are. (see: Elizabeth Claire Prophet; Heaven's Gate)<br><br>2) If you are the police or the military and are aiming to annoy people from their hidey holes, don't use heavy metal. Heavy metal, no matter how fast and annoying, often has a barely discernable melody and can be kindof catchy. Instead, use Gabber. Gabber is ideal for this. Look up Gabber and tell me it wouldn't have been more effective against the Branch Davidians. Discuss.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:32 a.m. CST

    No one's entirely a victim in this...

    by BrandonGK

    Koresh was a child molester and a nutcase, no doubt about it. However the ATF/FBI are certainly not blameless in this. They we're warned that Branch Davidians knew they we're coming but went ahead with the raid anyway, primarily so they would look good to congress, and the FBI we're warned repeatedly by there own negotiators that strong arming the BDs we're a mistake but went ahead anyway with disastrous results. The government without a doubt acted foolishly and impatiently, and over 80 people died over it. That being said, I think it would be foolhardy to assign martyrdom to delusional sexual predator like Koresh who did reneg on agreements with the negotiators to end the standoff.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:32 a.m. CST

    Adama...we have ALOT of veeeeeery stupid

    by Brians Life

    people in this country. That's not to say that opression should not be fought against. Where are you hailing from? I mean I live in the States and I don't hear Ruby Ridge tosses around all that much...

  • May 20, 2008, 11:33 a.m. CST


    by The Duke of New York

    Another Remake! What about the 1993 TV movie with Tim Daily?

  • May 20, 2008, 11:35 a.m. CST

    My buddy watched some docu on Waco last week...

    by Brians Life

    ...and now he's singing the praises of David Koresh. Look...NO ONE was an angel is this thing, but the situation was created due to Koresh's irresponsibility and selfishness. At days end, I've gotta put blame on his shoulders.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:35 a.m. CST


    by Adama77

    I don't think there were tanks with flamethrowers - despite what Timothy Mcveigh believed.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:39 a.m. CST

    That reminds me...

    by BrandonGK

    Seeing that terrorism/Iraq movie are continuing to bomb (no pun intended) is Hollywood now starting to focus on domestic nuts again? Is Tim McVeigh text

  • May 20, 2008, 11:39 a.m. CST

    Cloverfield monsters with flamethrowers.

    by Sailor Rip

    Look at the pictures people. Fight the future.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:39 a.m. CST

    Brians Life

    by Adama77

    I'm British, like I said - I live in England. Anyway...I guess you get almost as many crazy people over here. It's true - you don't hear Ruby Ridge brought up much now. I guess I just remember a time when it seemed like there were documentaries left right and centre, and the usual weirdoes on the internet were calling the FBI 'murderers'. What happened is awful, but it was pretty obviously a mistake - again, tragically, recklesness with the rules of engagement.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:40 a.m. CST

    Nah, no flamethrowing tanks

    by Razorback

    No one knows who started the fire or if it was intentionally set. We do know, though, that around half of the people who died, did so not directly from the fire but from the CS gas.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:41 a.m. CST

    Sam Donaldson interviewing David Koresh:

    by morGoth

    Sam: Mr Koresh, you say the government is "after you." Why?<p>Koresh: Because we're so heavily armed.<p>Sam: Why are you so heavily armed?<p>Koresh: Because Sam, the government is after us!

  • May 20, 2008, 11:41 a.m. CST


    by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet

    you didn't understand my post. or maybe you just didn't read the second half.<p>obviously there is no black and white here.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:44 a.m. CST


    by Brians Life

    I do believe that there are instances in which you can point to both our governments and say "there is SOMETHING fishy goin' on there"...but I don't think Waco is one of them. yes, the rules of engagement were violated and it was tragic...but that's all.<br><br>

  • May 20, 2008, 11:44 a.m. CST

    Congrats DevilCat...

    by morGoth

    ...the first right-wing fruitcake to show up. Yes, it was Hillary Clinton herself who was manning that tank. Janet Reno had a head cold that day and, besides, who can say no to Hillary?

  • May 20, 2008, 11:48 a.m. CST did Path to 911 PROTECT the Clintons...

    by Brians Life

    Defend that NOW! That flick (bought and sold by a fundamentalist right wing agenda corp) basically blamed Clinton for September 11th....Maaaaan, I love that no matter what the topic you guys can't help put spread a little of your venom around. Take a fucking class.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:48 a.m. CST

    Gatsbys West Egg Omlet

    by Adama77

    Sorry - I did understand. I just disagreed with the wording you used. No one has that many weapons because they just want to be left alone. They believed the apocalypse was coming. Why that meant they needed all those guns, who knows?

  • May 20, 2008, 11:50 a.m. CST

    Can we change director please?

    by BenBraddock

    Both The Fog and Stigmata were shit

  • May 20, 2008, 11:50 a.m. CST

    Wasn't there already a television movie based on this?

    by Sithdan

    I remember clearly a T.V. movie based on this incident back in 1994 or 1995. Janet Reno RULES!! She didn't take any shit.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:51 a.m. CST

    Gee morGoth

    by BrandonGK

    What vile shenanigans won't that evil Hillary pull? Its a good thing we have real American heroes like Timmy McVeigh and Terry Nichols willing to stand up to the evil one world conspiracy, by of course murdering 168 innocent people (including 19 children) who had nothing to do with the Waco siege.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:52 a.m. CST

    Damn you, George Lucas!

    by Motoko Kusanagi

    Damn you to hell!

  • May 20, 2008, 11:58 a.m. CST

    Really morGoth? It's that simple?

    by TheLastCleric

    Weaver was no doubt lamenting over the loss of his family. I really don’t think he was suggesting that the government was justified in blowing his wife and kid away, do you? As for the Davidian fiasco, while Koresh was certainly unbalanced and probably guilty of statutory rape and illegal firearm possession, I really don’t fathom how you protect children by burning them and gassing them alive. There are quite a few facts and aspects of this case that many American’s haven’t bothered to learn and rather they simply write the Davidians off as loons deserving of extermination. Many people in here still assume that the Davidians opened fire without provocation when in reality there has been evidence to suggest they were fired upon first and then retaliated. Interestingly enough, certain key pieces of evidence have gone missing. Regardless, there is plenty of evidence that proves the government continued assaulting the Davidians after the initial firefight despite claims to the contrary. There is also absolutely no viable evidence suggesting Koresh and his followers started the fire but there is plenty to suggest the ATF and assisting police agencies either started it accidentally or intentionally. This entire incident is a shameful time in out nation’s history and the record needs to be set straight.

  • May 20, 2008, 11:59 a.m. CST

    Send in Paul Greengrass! (too obvious?)

    by Lance Rocke

    um, Oliver Stone?

  • May 20, 2008, noon CST

    yawn......who cares?????

    by j2talk

    who care .......didnt NBC already do a film on this with the guy from WINGS?!?!?!?!?

  • May 20, 2008, 12:13 p.m. CST


    by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet

    thats one side. the whole "just leave us alone" argument that every nutcase with a war chest cries. also on that side, maybe a bitless nuts, are the folks who say "the government is out to get us and strip away our freedoms".<p>the other side is "the feds were right to go in there with guns blazing, those crazies were crazy," justification.<p>the truth is somewhere in the middle, buried under a bunch of dead people and 15 years of speculation.

  • May 20, 2008, 12:17 p.m. CST


    by TheLastCleric

    It never fails to amaze me how anybody of even moderate intelligence can be so completely trusting of the government, especially considering history. Anybody who has a working knowledge of the last five decades of U.S. history has numerous reasons to be suspicious of their government. Sure there are some people who take the whole conspiracy aspect to an extreme but that doesn’t mean everybody who mistrusts their government is a crazy loon. What happened at Waco wasn’t “an honest mistake” but was either gross, criminal negligence or an organized and deliberate mass murder. Either way many people, including Reno herself, needed to be held accountable and were not. The Waco: Rules of Engagement documentary may have been biased against the ATF but it doesn’t change the facts present in that film, which are quite frightening.

  • May 20, 2008, 12:17 p.m. CST

    Seperate investigations

    by Sailor Rip

    concluded, even with one having the knoweledge that incendiary type grenades were used by the ATF, that the fire was started by the davidians. <p> But if you're the type who always thinks everything done by the government is a conspiracy then I'm sure you doubt the validity of those reports.

  • May 20, 2008, 12:20 p.m. CST

    The roof! The roof! The roof is on fire!!

    by Itto Ogami loses Daigoro

    If we don't got no water let the muthafucka Janet Reno as Mega-Reno

  • May 20, 2008, 12:21 p.m. CST

    WACO : Among the Few Times the U.S. Government Actually KICKED A

    by Killfriendly

    Bow down, religio-fanatic ulcers. You're next !!!

  • May 20, 2008, 12:46 p.m. CST

    ....@ Adama77..............

    by redhankyspanky

    "Notice how all the people claiming to have 'done nothin wrong' (Waco, Ruby Ridge) usually had guns, and fired them at cops." fuck you, you uneducated ignorant douche. The feds shot an unarmed lady (holding an infant, no less) in the head at Ruby Ridge. You Goddamned douche drinking sycophant. I knew this talkback would be entertaining. I love movies and 'cool' shit as much as the next guy, but topics like this have no place at AICN, where most folks know their cinema backwards and forwards, but know jack shit about the real world. It wont stop know nothing cock bags like you from opening your fat pieholes. Fucking dumbass.

  • May 20, 2008, 12:53 p.m. CST

    ..."They shot at us."......

    by redhankyspanky

    "If I never hear about Ruby Ridge ever again I'll be a heck of a lot happier. "They shot at us. Why, all we wanted to do was dodge my arrest warrant."---------a minute ago, you said they fired on the cops, now the cops fired on them? Yeah, sounds like you have the events down in a nice linear fashion. Fucking extra retarded. What kind of a fuckstick offers commentary so freely on a subject he obviously knows so little about? A fucking retard, thats who.

  • May 20, 2008, 12:53 p.m. CST

    janet reno has blood on her hands

    by lilgorgor

    fuck the government.

  • May 20, 2008, 12:54 p.m. CST

    Rupert Wainwright

    by kwisatzhaderach

    Seriously though, how does this guy still get work?

  • May 20, 2008, 1:12 p.m. CST

    ....Obama was right?...........

    by redhankyspanky

    "Obama was right. Instead of "clinging to guns and religion" fucking vote you ignoramuses. If you havent noticed, the electoral process is broken, dipshit. We are the laughing stock of the world, as we cant even hold a concise election, due to all the fraud, manipulation and voter disenfranchisement. Obama was right? You are a grade-a fucking moron. Help yourself to some "change" and some "yes we can", and then shut the fuck up.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:18 p.m. CST


    by TheLastCleric

    So because we distrust our government we must not vote? Way to generalize. And I guess I missed the meeting where all voters got access to all governmental files along with their voter's registration card. Incidentally, I vote independent which means I don't have much of a voice but regardless I do vote. In this nation there are only two viable political parties and both are corrupt as hell. If you vote for either you're a bigger part of the problem than the people you insult.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:19 p.m. CST


    by The Marquis de Side 3


  • May 20, 2008, 1:23 p.m. CST

    Sailor Rip

    by TheLastCleric

    Are you the type who buys everything the government sells? Did we actually invade Vietnam to stem the tide of the Commies? Are we realy in Iraq to fight terror and keep America safe? Read some history and get back to me.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:27 p.m. CST

    The TV movie

    by JoeSixPack

    Was made while the standoff was going on. It was released shortly after the incident was over. Anyone remember that?

  • May 20, 2008, 1:30 p.m. CST

    Anyone else

    by Series7

    Remember the Tiny Toon Adventures like week long event, that kept getting interupted by this when it happened?

  • May 20, 2008, 1:30 p.m. CST

    ...assholes and ignoramuses.........

    by redhankyspanky

    "So because we distrust our government we must not vote? Way to generalize." - I voted, never said I didnt, or suggested other didnt. Way to twist words, though. "Incidentally, I vote independent which means I don't have much of a voice but regardless I do vote." - your vote counts just as much as my vote, or any other. You DO understand how the electoral process works dont you? -------------- "In this nation there are only two viable political parties and both are corrupt as hell." - well, you got that one right. So where do you come off with "if you assholes took part in government"? Do YOU not fit in that equation? Why do you get to sit out, but the rest of us are assholes? "If you vote for either you're a bigger part of the problem than the people you insult." - thats rich, coming form someone who says 'Obama was right'! Hes as much a part of the establishment as Hillary or McCain. His economic advisor is 'skull and bones', his foreign policy advisor is Zbigniew Bzrezinski (who created equipped and trained al-queda to fight the russians in afghanistan). Google image 'zbigniew osama' to see pics of him hanging out shooting guns with bin laden. The fact that this isnt common knowledge is proof that the mainstream media is fucking rigged. Amazing how poeple shill for candidates they know nothing about (or no more than they see in 'people' magazine). But youll come in here calling people assholes and ignoramuses, wont you? --------------- --------

  • May 20, 2008, 1:31 p.m. CST

    ............the type.........

    by redhankyspanky

    "Are you the type who buys everything the government sells? Did we actually invade Vietnam to stem the tide of the Commies? Are we realy in Iraq to fight terror and keep America safe?" -------------------------but...but...they hate us for our......oh fuck, I KNOW THIS ONE!!!

  • May 20, 2008, 1:33 p.m. CST

    RE: Flame throwing tanks

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I've seen the footage of what is alleged to be a "flame throwing tank". In fact, the footage was shown quite extensively on Texas public access stations (especially Austin). The particular portion of the live feed, which contained the incident, never seemed to get replayed on all the major news networks. This fact became a point of contention for comedian Bill Hicks who questioned the government's story and the media's coverage of it. His buddy, Kevin Booth, put together a rather loose "documentary" (which used segments from "Waco: The Big Lie") that included this footage as well as some other eerie footage of alleged ATF agents exiting the building during the fire.<P>HOWEVER, it is 100% unclear as to what is coming out/off of the tank because it is not projected like a flamethrower. For all intents and purposes, it looks more like something caught fire and fell off the turret and front-end of the tank as it was busting a hole in the compound.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:33 p.m. CST


    by greg39

    Sorry, but they opened fire on federal agents. I really can't feel bad for them.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:41 p.m. CST

    This would be amazing statement in the hands of Oliver Stone...

    by wowsah156

    Stone would nail the Waco tragedy in that he would go over ALL the facts and sides before scripting it. Also he would cast Val Kilmer in a fucked up state of mind as David Koresh. Think about it.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:41 p.m. CST

    ....bill hicks........

    by redhankyspanky

    "HOWEVER, it is 100% unclear as to what is coming out/off of the tank because it is not projected like a flamethrower. For all intents and purposes, it looks more like something caught fire and fell off the turret and front-end of the tank as it was busting a hole in the compound." You are correct about Bill Hicks. The fire that came out of the tank wasnt a traditional flamethrower, it was phosphorous. But one can hardly claim this was unintentional when one drives a tank into a building with children inside, crashing the barrel through the structure, and firing. It would take a grade a cockstain to claim surprise when such a move started a fire (not that you are, mind you). Bill Hicks was dead on about what he said. Somebody above mentioned Waco:Rules of Engagement. You can get it on via a torrent client like bittornado.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:44 p.m. CST

    ....stone "nailing" it................

    by redhankyspanky

    "Stone would nail the Waco tragedy in that he would go over ALL the facts and sides before scripting it." Just like hes gonna "nail" the Bush bio, right? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!

  • May 20, 2008, 1:45 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Quote: "The fire that came out of the tank wasnt a traditional flamethrower, it was phosphorous."<P>You have proof of this? First I've heard of that claim. I own the Booth "documentary" and I've seen the footage a number of times. What I've seen does not look white-hot enough to be phosphorous.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Texas Monthly April Issue

    by mjgtexas

    Texas Monthly had a comprehensive 15th anniversary look back in the April 2008 Issue. The conclusion, more or less: ATF goons mooning kids, raising middle fingers at women, beating up cameramen, running over bicycles, and playing Nancy Sinatra at the highest decibels did negotiaters no favors. However, the Davidians did set the compound on fire.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:50 p.m. CST


    by Sailor Rip

    No. No I'm not.

  • May 20, 2008, 1:57 p.m. CST


    by Sailor Rip

    We never landed on the moon, The WTC was brought down by a controlled demolition, TWA 800 was shot down by a guided missle,the Airforce is flying UFO's in the Nevada desert, crack was invented by the CIA to eradicate the black community...and so forth

  • May 20, 2008, 1:59 p.m. CST

    What We Can Learn From Waco and Ruby Ridge

    by Sgt.Steiner

    Lessons that can be learned from these two major examples: Rules of Engagement must be properly followed, but stocking up on excessive amounts of firearms and resisting arrest and/or shooting at armed federal agents is a really fucking stupid thing to do. But the Waco fire was the feds? Please go back to uttering alternate theories for 9/11 found in "Loose Change" while reading "The Turner Diaries", while the rest of us accept reality the way it is. The lies surrounding Vietnam came out, and Cheney's cronies are clearly profiting from the quagmire in Iraq, while others die for the delusions of the very-real PNAC. No habeas corpus, torture, etc. But all that has very little to do with this arcane G. Gordon Liddy stereotype of the "jackbooted thugs" fundamentalists like to plan to do battle with, or men with an overzealous passion for firearms resist arrest. DMX got the SWAT team. Do not resist arrest. We are not talking about Sean Bell or Amidou Diallo here. There were warrants involved. None of this foolhardy stand-off shit. Fuck Timothy McVeigh.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:07 p.m. CST

    ...MR Nice..........

    by redhankyspanky

    You have proof of this? First I've heard of that claim. I own the "Booth "documentary" and I've seen the footage a number of times. What I've seen does not look white-hot enough to be phosphorous." I have it too, along with a few others. Ever heard of Officer Jack McClamb? He was there. I have an interview where he states it was phosphorous, you can probably find it on his website. I must warn you, its venturing into conspiracy theory territory (what that guy has to say), and we all know that here in the real world, magic bullets are the rule of thumb. But yeah his story is right along the lines of W:RoE, as far as blame and criminal negligence.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Most people talk a lot of shit but know little

    by Razorback

    Perhaps people should learn some of the facts of this case before talking about how the ATF had to go in there to take illegal weapons. Not a single weapon in the compound was illegal. Even the automatic weapons were licensed. So, the ATF's reason for serving the warrant there was purely a publicity stunt.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:12 p.m. CST

    the movie can last 15 min

    by j2talk

    this could be a short film......nut jobs in texas.....Government tries to arrest them....nut jobs open fire...the G gets more men, circles sround the camp....sets it on fire , breaks out the marshmellows and watches it burn dollars saved,nut jobs over

  • May 20, 2008, 2:13 p.m. CST


    by redhankyspanky

    Node32774 - said "dick" I guess they didnt call you the 'comeback king' in high school for nothing. "Not a single weapon in the compound was illegal." - razorbacks right. Kinda reduces adama77s argument to state sanctioned murder based on paranoia....

  • May 20, 2008, 2:15 p.m. CST

    So, blaming the ATF for a shit plan is a CT?

    by Razorback

    I don't buy into any conspiracy theories. They are all pretty stupid. So, I don't consider Waco a conspiracy on the level of something like JFK or 9/11. If there was a conspiracy, it was to keep documents out of the hands of the media that would prove the ATF and FBI screwed up. We eventually got those documents and it is pretty clear the ATF and FBI made serious errors in judgement. That is not a conspiracy theory. Saying that the WTC was brought down by a controlled demo... that is a conspiracy theory... and insane.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:25 p.m. CST

    I can sense the movie's tension already...NOT

    by Big Dumb Ape

    While a movie about Waco -- done in a fair and balanced manner that really does examine what happened that day from all angles -- could make for a potentially strong film, I can already tell that this one will SUCK.<p>From the same HACK director of Stigmata and even worse, THE FOG remake? For crying out loud, have you SEEN THE FOG remake? Talk about an absolutely BORING SHITFEST. I swear, Wainwright (the proposed director here) fucking owes me 2 hours of my life back for having produced the LEAST horrific horror movie I think I can ever remember sitting through.<p>So given that the whole POINT to a movie like THE FOG is to build the suspense over what will happen and this guy utterly sucked ass at that, I'm sure his directoral vision over the tension of the Waco standoff will be equally hackish and even WORSE than the TV Tim Daly movie.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:28 p.m. CST

    Watch Waco:The Rules of Engagement

    by Cagliostro

    Very informative little film.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:37 p.m. CST

    I'm hoping this movie shows one thing

    by dracphelan

    I'm hoping this movie shows how badly the ATF screwed up and why. Yes, the Branch Dividians screwed up too. But, the ATF has big problem with showboating and seeing it's job as to remove weapons from the hands of everyone. They are inconsistent in their regulatory rulings and have recently gotten into a mode of seizing everything they can. This has gone as far as giving their agents pocket knives that have engraved on them "Think Forfeiture!"

  • May 20, 2008, 2:40 p.m. CST

    Liberals believe it is OK to burn babies alive...

    by BobParr

    if they're Christians. Or is that not what this talk-back is saying? Janet Reno was a really good Attorney General...I mean really good.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:42 p.m. CST

    Are you serious?

    by your_face

    Anyone who buys into the bullshit about September 11th and waco being a fuckin conspiracy should get back on the short bus because they are fuckin retarded.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:42 p.m. CST

    and they enjoy a good burger too!

    by just pillow talk

    Those fucking libs! And conservatives dip their fucking fries into ketchup! An outrage!

  • May 20, 2008, 2:42 p.m. CST


    by redhankyspanky

    RAZORBACK said "If there was a conspiracy, it was to keep documents out of the hands of the media that would prove the ATF and FBI screwed up." - thats what I was implying. But conspiracy is sucha dirty word nowadays.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:51 p.m. CST


    by redhankyspanky

    "sorry. I meant dickhead." Wow. You 1-upped yourself. You, go girl. But dont apologize, go for the goo-sto. Try mixing a curse with a random noun, like "cuntcrust". Get creative. I mean, since you cant back your shit up with a legitimate argument. Coming in here calling people assholes and telling us to listen to Obama....stick to "cuntcrust", youll be far more persuasive.

  • May 20, 2008, 2:56 p.m. CST


    by Adama77

    Wow. You are one angry individual. "fuck you, you uneducated ignorant douche. The feds shot an unarmed lady (holding an infant, no less)" That's just the tip of your bile painted iceberg. I DO know about Ruby Ridge - not intimately, but I'm not ignorant of the events as you claim. IT WAS A MISTAKE. The guy who shot Mrs Weaver was aiming for Randy - who he had already shot once. Were you there? Are you an ATF sniper? Do you know anything about that world? Maybe you think you're more qualified than I am to sit in judgement on the guy who pulled that trigger, at the wrong moment, and will have to live with it for the rest of his life... And for those of you who say I'm too trusting, or naieve, and that they 'did it on purpose' at Waco. Ok. Fine. What was their motive?! Some people can't accept that law enforcement groups (and governments) fuck up sometimes - big time. Apparently, it scares us so much that we have incompetent people in high places, that we would rather assume they are 'evil', and planning things against us. Redhand - take a chill pill, or at least wash your fucking mouth out you holier than thou son of a bitch. I can't see why my comments about Ruby Ridge piss you off so much, unless of course you are Randy Weaver - in which case, kiss my ass!

  • May 20, 2008, 3:06 p.m. CST

    How can they have a movie about 9/11 before this?

    by Alkeoholic77

    I don't get how it works.

  • May 20, 2008, 3:07 p.m. CST


    by redhankyspanky

    " IT WAS A MISTAKE. The guy who shot Mrs Weaver was aiming for Randy" - is that right? was he aiming for Randy when he shot his son in the back as he ran for his life, and killed him as well? And their dog, too? But youre just "tired of hearing about it". You really cant see how your comments could piss someone off? "Im SO tired of hearing about it". Another big government appeaser that just doesnt get it. So who shot first again? You dont know half as much as youd like to come across as knowing. "Why should big government ever be held accountable? I mean gosh Im just so sick of hearing about it" Mistake? Enjoy your bliss.

  • May 20, 2008, 3:08 p.m. CST

    Conspiracy or not?

    by Truecoat

    There is still the contention that the ATF opened fire first. Then there's the door itself. ATF says the branch opened fire first and branch says ATF. Too bad the ATF bulldozed the place and the door went missing. One of the interviews stated that they shot the dogs outside in a kennel before they even went to the front door. Interesting way to serve a warrant. If someone came to my house, shot my dog and then knocked or shot the door without identifying themselves, they better make sure their affairs are in order. Besides, it's legal to defend yourself in Texas from law enforcement if: § 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (C) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified: (1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

  • May 20, 2008, 3:09 p.m. CST

    ......yes you can...........

    by redhankyspanky

    "Go back to the hills with your guns and religion. Obama! Obama! Obama!" no see, I made up cuntcrust. ME. You still have to do your own thing, you repetitious bastard. You can do it. "Yes you can".

  • May 20, 2008, 3:18 p.m. CST

    No Last Cleric, that's not what I meant.

    by morGoth

    Remember, Weaver said that. What he meant was the whole thing could’ve been averted if he had just surrendered to authorities that first fateful day and took his chances with the courts. Instead, there was shooting and people on both sides died. I never intimated the government was justified (and certainly not Weaver/Koresh) in anything but it’s a fact in the US (and elsewhere, I’m sure) that you are supposed to surrender, peacefully, to law enforcement when they come to arrest you or take you in and everyone knows that. What Weaver said was a simple statement of fact shorn of any right or wrong. The same with Koresh: the ultimate fate of the Davidians was in his hands and he could have ended it that first day also but he chose confrontation instead. Stop reading into what I said and stick to the simple truth of the statement.<p>As for what actually happened at Waco, you can watch all the documentaries you want but you and I will never know the whole truth. I suspect NOONE will except those involved and a lot of them are dead. However, if DK had simply gone with the ATF that first morning it is highly likely the tragedy would’ve been averted.

  • May 20, 2008, 3:20 p.m. CST


    by redhankyspanky

    its been fun. Should be interesting to see just how bad they whitewash the whole event. Im sure appeasers like node will be satisfied, as long as it follows the 'official story'. Ill be skipping it though, Waco:Rules of Engagement is good enough for me. I dont need some sycophantic dramatization. Nor some ignorant spunk-hole telling me it was all a mistake and I should just forget it, and move along. Until it happens again. "Accountability? Why? So what if it keeps happening?" In the words of Bill Hicks: YOU ARE FREE...TO DO AS WE TELL YOU.

  • May 20, 2008, 3:24 p.m. CST

    ......comeback king strikes again!.........

    by redhankyspanky

    "Obama! Obama! Obama!" - Wow, uh.....I really showed me! (yawn)

  • May 20, 2008, 3:25 p.m. CST


    by redhankyspanky

    later, cuntcrust!

  • May 20, 2008, 3:28 p.m. CST

    "...organized and deliberate mass murder."

    by morGoth

    Oh come on Last Cleric...why would the US Government want to deliberately do that? Please give me one good reason why. Please believe me that I was raised in the era of "Question Authority" but that's a huge stretch any way you look at it. Ridiculous...

  • May 20, 2008, 3:35 p.m. CST

    Difference between Scientology & Branch Davidians?

    by Yeti

    Celeb endorsement and lots of $$$

  • May 20, 2008, 3:39 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Don't point guns at them. DUH!!

  • May 20, 2008, 3:40 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Although I don't know who started the fire and shit, but if you're dealing with a psychopath cult leader, better to take it slow. Maybe smoke 'em out or something.

  • May 20, 2008, 3:45 p.m. CST

    I was expecting to hear how wrong the gov was

    by liljuniorbrown

    It seems people are more "conservative" when it comes to this topic. Oh well, my thoughts are damned if you do damned if you don't.If ATF /FBI waited another day or ten and the "Jesus" guy inside started offing people then the goverment would have been at blame,instead they burnt down a building full of women and children while trying to get rid of a few nutcases. It truly is a mad mad world.

  • May 20, 2008, 3:56 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Shut up already. You are so feeble-minded.

  • May 20, 2008, 3:58 p.m. CST

    id like to see this as a comedy...

    by seekshelter

    that would be great when the tanks start rolling in and a dragon flies out of the gym and starts spraying fire everywhere.... and make koresh some time of wizard with some little cronies that can shapeshift into animals and .... and maybe have tommy lee jones as the no nonsense sherrif thats in charge till the atf arrives... and he finds out that his son is being held captive there and he decides he has to go in and save him... so he rounds up some aged lawmen ala Space Cowboys and they attempt to break in before the atf starts napalming the place... and maybe have koresh and tommy lee fight it out over a pit filled with lava and lave crocodiles.. ohhh and have koresh be able to control someones mind and he took tommy lee's son so he could absorb his power, because.... apparently, tommy lee's son could do it better than him... i so want to see this movie now.

  • May 20, 2008, 4:05 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    But it's okay if Bush and Company kill a couple of hundred thousand people in an illegal invasion. Now that's comedy.

  • May 20, 2008, 4:06 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Just wanna clarify

  • May 20, 2008, 4:09 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    What a contemptable fucker.

  • May 20, 2008, 4:14 p.m. CST

    The Feds! The CIA! The Man!

    by Adama77

    "was he aiming for Randy when he shot his son in the back as he ran for his life, and killed him as well" Keep pretending that you're some kind of expert on Ruby Ridge. Did I say that he was the same guy that fired every single shot? Do you have proof that he was? As far as I'm aware it was two other guys who fired on Weaver's son. I'm not an apologist, I just don't see Ruby Ridge as anything other than it was. A fuckup, caused by Randy Weaver as much as anyone else. And you know what? Yeah I see you quoting Bill Hicks "You are free to do as we tell you". Yeah. He was funny. But you shouldn't base your worldview on a standup comedian's material. Next you'll be telling me you know that Lee Harvey Oswald didn't kill JFK because Bill Hicks said so!

  • May 20, 2008, 4:15 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Yeah, I've not heard the "phosphorus theory" and I'm not sure I can buy it based upon the appearance of the fire in the footage. I find it hard to believe that a tank not equipped with (or designed to carry) a flamethrower happened to be equipped with phosphorus...phosphorus that does not appear white-hot and looks more like it fell off the tank rather than shot out of it.

  • May 20, 2008, 4:16 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Quote: " shouldn't base your worldview on a standup comedian's material."<P>Agreed. Word.

  • May 20, 2008, 4:20 p.m. CST

    The Fire

    by orlandocfa

    Regardless of who started the fire, the building went up in a ball fo fire because of the gas the government pumped in there. The women and kids were probably dead or dying before the fire even started. And the thought that we are supposed to willingly submit when the law shows up is ridiculous. It's a good thing our founding fathers weren't so willing to submit to King George. If one ever wants to wonder why our country went down the crapper, the talk backs here could serve as example # 1.

  • May 20, 2008, 4:23 p.m. CST

    Branch davidians were a radical offshoot

    by RokurGepta

    from the seventh day adventist church, I wonder if this will be mentioned in the movie, and will it damage the image/reputation of the SDA church more...<p> thoughts? comments? response?

  • May 20, 2008, 4:36 p.m. CST

    Thank you Dr.Baltar!

    by Adama77

    Consider yourself forgiven for New Caprica!

  • May 20, 2008, 4:42 p.m. CST

    Wheel of Morality Turn Turn Turn Show us the lesson

    by CrichtonAstronut

    that we shoul learn. "Buy Plastic"

  • May 20, 2008, 4:42 p.m. CST

    And thank you Admiral...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...for rescuing us all!

  • May 20, 2008, 5:01 p.m. CST

    BraneRobot. Dude, you're insane.

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    There really is no two ways about it. Nice attempt at low-balling me though. I see you're still reeling from the beatdown we gave you the other day.<P>So, how DOES it feel to be AICN's token genocidal maniac who can't help but get bitchslapped on a routine basis?

  • May 20, 2008, 5:42 p.m. CST

    TOO SOON!!

    by Pageiv

    I just wonder how'll they blame Bush for it.

  • May 20, 2008, 6:39 p.m. CST

    Good Lord, BraneRobot!

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Your Talkback-Fu is SO FUCKING WEAK!!! Oh my! You need to try harder son.<P>Boy, I love having the truth on my side. And I really enjoy the fact that we have the TBs to prove it.

  • May 20, 2008, 7:26 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Dancing With The Stars Finale TONIGHT!!!

  • May 20, 2008, 7:49 p.m. CST


    by Jeremiah86

    I live in Waco. I lived here when the compound burned down. The old compound Is a high school now. The doomsday clock in the libray has been painted school colors. Been out to the ruins of the compund they are rebuilding...Nice people. Errie feeling all around the compund..still smells like fire.

  • May 20, 2008, 7:49 p.m. CST

    The best way for the audience to understand this

    by Teddy Artery

    ...would be through the eyes of one of the kids raised in the compound.

  • May 20, 2008, 8:52 p.m. CST

    Didn't really happen in Waco...

    by TheGreatHomsar

    I've lived in Waco for 6 years, and like most young people here, decided it would be fun to go visit the Branch Davidian compound. Little did we know the damn thing is more than 30 minutes outside of the city of Waco out in the goddamn middle of nowhere. Creepy place though. People still live out there. *shudders*

  • May 20, 2008, 8:58 p.m. CST


    by Jerri Blank

    I love you. Will you marry me? Yeah, stockpiling weapons, refusing to pay taxes, molesting children, claiming to be Christ, oh...those poor innocent people. Boo-Fuckin-Hoo.

  • May 20, 2008, 9:51 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Thanks, you just proved my point AGAIN. Weak. Weak. Weak.<P>It may be in your best interest to only play with guys like Bone Jangles. I'm sure you guys would get along great!

  • May 20, 2008, 10:32 p.m. CST

    Branebot, really?

    by Stevie Grant

    Everyone knows I'm no liberal. So, in that line of thought... come on: the only thing Obama would bring to office is the most attractive First Lady in US history. Michelle Obama is attractive and respectable. Personally, I respect his wife (but not him), and his policies scare the shit out of me (such as his assessment of the "Bush" social security plan)... the Dems love to pretend that the only social security solution on the table that doesn't involve cutting benefits or raising taxes is evil (because it involves personal decisions and the market). They (ie currently Obama) pretend that Bush was the first to push it (even though Clinton was the first to). But more to the point, the slaughter of those cultists is a disgrace to America. The local police had an open invitation to view the weapons, and the only reason Janet Reno's SS/Brownshirt tactics resulted in violence was because they were SS/Brownshirt tactics. As fucked up as the Branch Dravidians were, the Federal Governments' actions there should have scared and pissed off every US resident.

  • May 20, 2008, 10:35 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Right back atcha. We can move to Utah - I always wanted a big polygamous family ...

  • May 21, 2008, 12:32 a.m. CST

    We didn't really kick ass at Waco either actually

    by Guy Who Got A Headache And Accidentally Saves The World

    Ever see the clip of the ATF guy climbing up onto the roof and shooting himself in the leg on the way up? Yeah, after 9/11 and hurricane Katrina, I just can't take those scenes in movies seriously anymore, where the guys in headsets are sitting around computers monitoring the world 24/7 ready to launch of squadron of jets or a platoon of crack paratroopers into any hotzone at a moments notice, like Iron Man, for a recent example. Even Navy Seals are fuck ups. The whole elite professional bullshit is a myth. We got an army of rednecks led by hillbillys.

  • May 21, 2008, 12:51 a.m. CST

    Wesley Clarks finest moment

    by Mace Tofu

    Bill Clinton and Janet Reno were handing metals out that day. Its a good thing Clinton sold all that Army surplus to our police force so they could be used like a regular Army against American citizens. They did this in Philly and Ruby Ridge back then. Funny thing is history repeats when a fake phone call from a Obama delegate (who said she was a 16 year old cult member) is used to get the warrant for the current raid on the Polygamist’s cult and 400 children taken at gun point. WTF?

  • May 21, 2008, 1 a.m. CST

    You guys have the same argument in every TB

    by ebonic_plague

    Although I guess that's pretty much inevitable when you have guys like Brane coming in and posting the same kind of deluded BS in every TB.

  • May 21, 2008, 1:03 a.m. CST

    Oh Lord! (No, not Koresh)

    by Stunt_Lime

    This is going to be a disaster.

  • May 21, 2008, 3:58 a.m. CST

    Those metals came out of a M4

    by Mace Tofu

    Hot lead. I'm not sure if anyone got a real "medal" but it seems everyone involved still has a job with the feds unless they were shot that day or Janet Reno.

  • May 21, 2008, 5:19 a.m. CST

    Both sides made mistakes.

    by mrfan

    The government shouldn't have been all John Wayne and rushed into this. The cult should have, well, not been doing its naughty stuff to innocent kids and adults. <p> With this movie you cannot get a winner. It will be interesting to see which side it takes though. There will probably be another one going the opposite way. Have no real intrest seeing it. Will save my money.

  • May 21, 2008, 5:20 a.m. CST

    Also, if I have to I volunteer...

    by mrfan

    to play Koresh. All I ask is that the Busted Tees Ladies play my followers.

  • May 21, 2008, 5:29 a.m. CST

    Will Janet Reno being play the grim reaper?

    by MontyPigeon

    Or maybe the tank driver that killed all those women and children?<p>Opening scene should be Bill Clinton wiping the blood off his hands wearing a "I heart Ruby Ridge" T-shirt.

  • May 21, 2008, 5:29 a.m. CST

    More drooling insanity from BraneRobot

    by Lost Jarv

    and, as I cannot be bothered to repeat myself I'm going to cut and Paste DocPazuzu's withering assessment of him from the other TB

  • May 21, 2008, 5:33 a.m. CST

    Attention- People trying to debate Brane Robot:

    by Lost Jarv

    He used to call himself Thunderballs and Animalstructure. This freak is a complete fascist monster. Here is a couple of things he's said in the past in talkback: <p> "Milosevic got a bad rap. He was just trying to save his country from Muslim invaders." <p> "There is no such thing as a right-wing dictatorship." <p> He also had this to say about the massacre in Srebrenica: <p> "If you want to make an omelette you have to break a few eggs." <p> He's also been known to refer to George W Bush as a "liberal", and Nazis as "leftists". Also, since Nazis were anti-smoking and Hitler a vegetarian, "liberals are Nazis." AnimalBraneBalls also condones the use of genocide as a political tool in war if American interests are at stake. He's one of the few truly evil talkbackers in AICN and the world would be a better place if he got run over by a bus today. Preferably three or four times. Y'know, just to make sure. This public service announcement has been brought to you by the CoC.

  • May 21, 2008, 5:37 a.m. CST

    Oops should have been "Playing the grim reaper"

    by MontyPigeon

  • May 21, 2008, 6:47 a.m. CST

    Well Lost Jarv

    by brobdingnag

    Brane sounds like a man after my own heart. I don't see anything in your characterization of him that I have a problem with. And though dictators run the political gamut, he is right, Nazis were liberals.

  • May 21, 2008, 7:19 a.m. CST


    by just pillow talk

    Then you are a misguided fool as well.

  • May 21, 2008, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Tim Daly is Superman

    by teethgnasher

    We all know it to be true.

  • May 21, 2008, 7:21 a.m. CST

    Is this a cult sect of the j

    by teethgnasher

  • May 21, 2008, 7:47 a.m. CST

    Worth reading...

    by iremonger

    If anyone actually cares about the subject matter they should check out an article called "Call it off" by David T Hardy. It goes into great detail how virtually nothing we know about Waco is actually true. When put into proper context the incident resembled ethnic cleansing closer than a law enforcement operation. Scary shit.

  • May 21, 2008, 8:34 a.m. CST

    Nazi's WERE NOT Liberals

    by Lost Jarv

    this is my pet fucking annoyance at the moment. Nazi= Fascist= FAR RIGHT TOTALITARIAN DICTATORSHIP. It isn't hard.<P>I know where this bollocks came from and it is historical revisionism of the worst most dangerous type.

  • May 21, 2008, 8:48 a.m. CST


    by ArcadianDS

    The most important lesson of Waco is that when you have an arrest warrant, its better to grab the target when he's outside of his compound on his daily morning job instead of serving his arrest papers through a 2nd story window.<p> Janet Reno's hands are awash in blood, and she skated for it. Can't wait for Harry to recover from surgery so he can find a way to blame Republicans for Waco.

  • May 21, 2008, 8:49 a.m. CST

    "daily morning JOG"

    by ArcadianDS

    This site blows. My dial-up BBS in 1984 had an edit feature.

  • May 21, 2008, 9:02 a.m. CST

    Warciple twin powers, ACTIVATE!!

    by Abominable Snowcone

    Form ICE PENCIL!! Shape of...uh, a puddle of WATER!!

  • May 21, 2008, 9:36 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Then I guess the Bush family is the most Liberal of all.

  • May 21, 2008, 9:38 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    which of course resulted in the deaths of over 3,000 Americans. Any outrage to be found from our right-wing friends?

  • May 21, 2008, 9:42 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    Where did you get that bollocks? Hitler was not a socialist, such an assertion is laughable. <P>Go back to masturbating over Mein Kampf and please, please never breed.

  • May 21, 2008, 9:57 a.m. CST

    An effort not to embarrass the President

    by gboybama

    I think the whole disaster was obviously a political play. If you think back to that time, the standoff was being covered gavel to gavel on the cable news networks. As time wore on, I'm sure that political hacks and policy wonks in the White House were starting to sweat about whether the situation was becoming embarrassing for the President. So, somebody called Justice and got that old tool Reno to send in the goons. Being a political, rather than merit, appointment, who was she to argue. Now, I doubt they meant to immolate all those odd, but harmless, American citizens. But, it would have been quite easy to starve them out. The ONLY reason to charge in was to end it quicker and the only motivation I can come up with for that was to get the standoff off the front page and to guard against another point drop in the popularity polls. Charred bodies are a high price to pay for tweaking the daily news cycle, don't you think? That's the injustice that probably won't be dipicted in the film and one of the many deadly abuses of power that came from the Clinton Administration. (Ignoring anything I may think about what's gone on since.)

  • May 21, 2008, 10:03 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Hitler/Nazis as Socialist Liberals was a ... shall we say, belief, of Morbid's. Brane just picked it up as a Liberal-bashing talking point to add to his not-so-formidable arsenal of insults. So sad he and Morbid are stuck in 2004. The rest of the country has thankfully moved on.

  • May 21, 2008, 10:16 a.m. CST

    Posse Comitatus - Illegal use of Military

    by Jodet

    Janet Reno was the worst attorney general in history. You'all should really read this:

  • May 21, 2008, 10:24 a.m. CST

    No it isn't BSB

    by Lost Jarv

    he's been doing it for ages when he was AnimalStructure- He's scum, and he honestly believes it. <P>Because he is basically simple he cannot see that the extremes share more common features than the middle- and therefore labels fascists as leftist despite the fact that Mussolini himself (the man that arguably invented fascism) said that one of the goals was to strive against trade unionism. I can do others without to much difficulty, but that doesn't sound very leftist to me. <P>He's a monster.

  • May 21, 2008, 10:52 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack


  • May 21, 2008, 11:04 a.m. CST

    No dickhead,

    by Lost Jarv

    I'll go and find the treatise on Fascism. As I said I used an example of it and "I can can do others without to much difficulty" . <p>Christ, you pick and choose what you want to believe. You can't discard things that don't fit your beliefs.<P>If I come back tomorrow with a decent amount of Anti-left things from it will you give it up?

  • May 21, 2008, 11:10 a.m. CST

    "Second most chilling moment of my life"

    by JackRabbitSlim

    Hard to believe that anyone who has lived on this planet more than, say, 12 years would have their second most chilling moment in their life be something that they saw on tv. I can think of 2 dozen chilling moments in my life far more emotionally and/or physically devastating to me than watching people burn in a fire on the boob tube. But that's just me.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:11 a.m. CST

    How about this one to tide you over?

    by Lost Jarv

    "Socialism is a fraud, a comedy, a phantom, a blackmail." <P>Benito Mussolini. Doesn't sound very left wing to me. <P>Give it up nut job. The man himself said he was right wing.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:12 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    "The Liberal State is a mask behind which there is no face; it is a scaffolding behind which there is no building." <P>Didn't like "libs" much did he?

  • May 21, 2008, 11:13 a.m. CST

    being a vegetarian

    by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet

    and wanting to ban smoking are liberal traits? <p>really BraneRobot?<p>why? cuz all the fags and new york city slickers are vegetarians?<p>christ, dude. get real. <p>and liberals think Jews are responsible for the worlds problems? <p>dude, you are so confused and deluded its amazing.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:16 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack


  • May 21, 2008, 11:20 a.m. CST

    Oooh- This is a good one:

    by Lost Jarv

    Benito Mussolini: Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of State and corporate power<P>I didn't know that. We really are on the slippery slope to a fascist state

  • May 21, 2008, 11:21 a.m. CST

    Fuck me- OK

    by Lost Jarv

    Hitler and Fascism. Fine, be right back. <P>How on Earth have those quotes screaming I HATE LIBERALS proved you're point?

  • May 21, 2008, 11:22 a.m. CST

    whoops, typo

    by Lost Jarv

    You're= your. <p.End of a long day. <P>And FYI- It's the end of my day so I'm off home, it isn't that I'm trying to avoid you, but I will spend a few minutes finding a suitably Right Wing Quote from Hitler before I go.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:23 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Morbid, your professor's losing it ...

  • May 21, 2008, 11:24 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    "Vile Leftist scum" is to be taken as an endrearing term, I suppose. Thanks, Professor.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:33 a.m. CST

    right- 3 for you to mull over,

    by Lost Jarv

    1) "Humanitarianism is the expression of stupidity and cowardice" Not big on compassion<p>2)"Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction." Not a fan of universal education, then<p>3)"Woman's world is her husband, her family, her children and her home. We do not find it right when she presses into the world of men." Not a huge pro-feminist then <P>Not to mention his rampant catholicism- these are not tentes of the left.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:34 a.m. CST

    anybody got any A1 sauce?

    by birdy birdman

    ah shit this meat is tainted...

  • May 21, 2008, 11:34 a.m. CST

    merger of state and corporate power

    by Lost Jarv

    It isn't as simple as that. At least now where getting somewhere that you know Fascism is not of the far left. If it was it would be Communism.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:34 a.m. CST

    Here is a circle: O

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    And here is BraneRobot.<P>They both go round and round.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:35 a.m. CST

    right, off home

    by Lost Jarv

    have fun Heydrich. <P>Give him a kicking, please guys.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:37 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Are they right-wingers?

  • May 21, 2008, 11:37 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    That's the Chinese mantra.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:43 a.m. CST

    Shit, before I go home

    by Lost Jarv

    hmm, who might have said them? On the basis that I went to get Hitler Quotes. Obviously, that was too hard for me, what with the resources of the internet at my fingertips. <P>So, the first quote is from Oscar Wilde, The Second one Was Dr Arnold and the third Emmeline Pankhurst. <P>Who do you think said them?

  • May 21, 2008, 11:44 a.m. CST

    Off home,

    by Lost Jarv

    I shall read any response from you tomorrow.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:45 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Pal, get out of the house more often and talk to some people. The Chinese have embraced Capitalism like history has not seen since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution. The nuance is, in fact, lost on you.

  • May 21, 2008, 11:56 a.m. CST

    The Davidians saw it coming...

    by SenatorNado

    ... you should, too:

  • May 21, 2008, 12:35 p.m. CST

    Oh yes!!! Battle Royale!!! I knew you wouldnt...

    by Darth Macchio

    ...disappoint!!! Ruby Ridge! Waco! Trust the government! Question authority! Yee haw! nothing like batshit bugnutted bickering forever and ever and ever. The government is an evil conspiracy!! The government is a circus of morons and you think they're scheming moustache-twisters of doom!!!<p>Often times, when relacing with a warm cup of tea or a small bowl of potatos, I enjoy pondering the varying mysteries and, well...un-ponderables in life, such as what an alien race might make of our lovely little jaunt into sentience after a mere tick of the universal clock? Imagine, if you will, thousands of years from now...hell...millions of years. Imagine the remains of our species and our culture being analyzed by some future xenopologist much like our current anthropologists only many years into the future after humanity's solar exodus or autonomic extinction? Imagine reconstructing code and data from its core elements of zeros and ones and forming an elementary primer and then delving into the 'common' existence of our species.<p>I still say a kick to the nuts is funny. And a choreographed kick to the nuts is a fucking evil lie deserving of a testicular de-skinning in a cold alcohol pool.

  • May 21, 2008, 1:09 p.m. CST

    Darth Macchio

    by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet

    that was just strange.

  • May 21, 2008, 1:16 p.m. CST

    That's probably because

    by Darth Macchio

    I had a typo when I wrote "relaced". It should actually say "relaxed". I can see how it might be weird given the sentence "when relacing with a warm cup of tea". Apologies.

  • May 21, 2008, 1:24 p.m. CST

    The ATF screwed up

    by hst666

    Look, I am in no way going to defend David Koresh as a person, but clearly the agents on hand that day completely mishandled the situation and were most likely responsible for the fires and the deaths of all those people. They could have and should have arrested Koresh.

  • May 21, 2008, 1:25 p.m. CST

    Only Liberals are on the wrong side of history?

    by Hawaiian Organ Donor

    OK, I'll give you that Liberals have chosen poorly sometimes. But the conservative right-wing has had their share of groaners as well.<p>They supported Saddam and supplied him with arms back in the day. Iran-Contra? Noriega? Duvalier? Pinochet?<p>By my count, the U.S. has supported 25 murderous dictators since 1930. We've had both Dems and Republicans in office over that time so I think the blame is shared, but to say Liberals are the only ones on the wrong side of history is preposterous. Nobody comes out clean here.

  • May 21, 2008, 1:32 p.m. CST


    by m2298

    How were the Branch Davidians "neo-cons"?

  • May 21, 2008, 1:49 p.m. CST

    That's OK, Memories-Of-Murder.

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    BraneRobot prefers that the world remain in state of shit. Don't you know? He's a conservative...with a lower case "c".

  • May 21, 2008, 1:49 p.m. CST


    by hst666

    How did the Davidians put the children in danger? They were not in danger until the fed showed up.

  • May 21, 2008, 1:52 p.m. CST

    You know....

    by Darth Macchio

    most of what all of you are saying could be boiled down to this:<p><p><p>I'm rubber, you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.<p><p><p>Or if not so sublime, more like "Fuck you!!!" and then the retort, "No, fuck YOU!!!!" and so on and so on forever.<p><p><p>But it's definitely awesome. Totally. Absolutely awesome. Awesome at its most awesomest. Yes, awesome. All are awesome. All awesome indeed.

  • May 21, 2008, 1:55 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack


  • May 21, 2008, 2:06 p.m. CST


    by Cruel_Kingdom

    Preach on, my brother.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:12 p.m. CST

    "The will of the people"?

    by Cruel_Kingdom

    Obama wasn't even on the fucking ballot. How could the votes in Michigan possibly hold up? Hillary agreed--as did Obama--that those votes wouldn't count. Period. It's bullshit to go back on that now.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:18 p.m. CST


    by Cruel_Kingdom

    You are a fucking moron.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:24 p.m. CST


    by Cruel_Kingdom

    Typical Righty, doesn't give a shit about the environment.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:27 p.m. CST


    by Cruel_Kingdom

    Yes, you really gave us a display of your intellect when you went on about how Michelle Obama looks like a man. You want to seem so intelligent and knowledgable about the issues, but then you resort to such childish name calling.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:29 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack


  • May 21, 2008, 2:32 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    He'll say anything to defend his party and fellow "c"onservatives. Even when they know they're wrong.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:35 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Might as well take out the trees too - more cost effective.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:39 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    But I support him on that.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:40 p.m. CST

    Bush would call us algae appeasers

    by Cruel_Kingdom

  • May 21, 2008, 2:45 p.m. CST

    Even if I was a Republican I'd be embarrassed

    by Cruel_Kingdom

    by Bush. The man is a cretin. He constantly mispronounces words, misreads situations, and just kind of seems like an idiot. What an embarrassment. Could you imagine what people in other countries think of us based on that hillbilly jackass? And I'm not even talking about the countries we're occupying. No matter what party you are affiliated with, I can't see how anyone could look at the man and not see a buffoon. Seriously.

  • May 21, 2008, 2:49 p.m. CST

    And you gotta love this...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Quote: "Just look at the big lie of anthropogenic global warming."<P>Really? You think Man's now largely unnatural relationship with the planet risks little or no consequence to the global environment? Anyone who choses to live in such a state of willful ignorance and arrogance is a complete and utter FOOL.<P>Besides, whatever happened to those core "c"onservative values like leaving the campsite (aka Earth) the same way you found it?

  • May 21, 2008, 2:57 p.m. CST

    Why is it that the anti-global warming scientists

    by Cruel_Kingdom

    remind me of those scientists funded by the tobacco companies who say that tobacco is safe?

  • May 21, 2008, 3:10 p.m. CST


    by toadkillerdog

    I really wanted to stay out of this, but oh well.<p> First, Obama. So, now you are defending the poor disenfranchised democratic voters, huh? Now you are defending poor Hillary Clinton? You are the hypocrite of the largest order. <p> Michigan and Florida tried to usurp the primaries, and jump the line, and were warned not to do so, but did it anyway. <p> ALL of the candidates agreed not to campaign in those states nor have their names on the ballot. <p> But Clinton did so anyway.<p> And now that she is losing, she wants those votes - that she agreed should not count, to do so.<p> Wow. Big shock<p> And it would be a bigger shock if Obama agreed to do so until after the nomination were secured. <p> Do you really think Hillary would accomodate him if the tables were reversed?<p> Did Bush agree to give up Florida? Would you have agreed that Gore won?<p> Secondly, I thought you had made progress when it came to fighting to the death over a point that you can ot win? I guess I was wrong. <p> Your latest screed about how the left is always on the wrong side of history, is simply absurd. MOM and HOD pointed that out already, but let me throw my inflation adjusted two cents into the mix.<p> I will ask two questions. <p>1)Was America's entry into WWII a mistake? <p> 2)Would you call FDR a liberal or a conservative?<p>

  • May 21, 2008, 3:15 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    or you're with the algae.

  • May 21, 2008, 3:22 p.m. CST


    by brobdingnag

    were socialists alright. They wanted government ownership of major industry, state sponsored health care and generated political power by pitting racial groups against each other. That is the very definition of the modern liberal. If Hitler we alive today he would be the leading Democratic candidate.

  • May 21, 2008, 3:23 p.m. CST

    "Reagan ended the Cold War and destroyed the Soviet threat"

    by hst666

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You don't really believe that fairy tale, do you? I assume you were born sometime after 1978, weren't you?

  • May 21, 2008, 3:24 p.m. CST


    by hst666

    Seriously, How did the Davidians put the children in danger. The Davidians were responsible for the feds oening fire and starting the fires in the compound? Please explain.

  • May 21, 2008, 3:33 p.m. CST


    by hst666

    How people in this country can be so ignorant is beyond me. (1) The republicans are the group that has been orchestrating class warfare and pitting the racial/ethnic groups against each other for the last 50 years. Of course, when the Democrats speak out about it, the right wing has tried to paint them as the ones promoting it. (2) What liberal has advocated government ownership of major industry - name one. Oh, that's right, you cannot, because you are speaking out your ass or parroting idiots like Goldberg. Further, government control is not socialism you ignorant 'tard. Why don't you actually read something by a socialist instead of loony attacks on them. <p> Nazi Germany was an authoritarian dictatorship like the USSR. It was fascist in nature, like the Bush administration has been. And before you neo-cons get up in arms, look up the definition of fascism and you will see that the Bush administration is textbook fascist.

  • May 21, 2008, 3:41 p.m. CST

    All of you are completely fooled....

    by Darth Macchio

    McCain is a cyborg. Obama is a Hitler clone (ever seen Boys from Brazil?). And Clinton is made of mud and the spittle of the Devil. Anything you say or have read is liberal/neocon bullshit. You've all been fooled by Limbaugh/Moore and completely brainwashed by Tim Robbins and Arnold Schwarzenegger. You are wrong. I am right. The leftwing is wrong and crazy and the rightwing is crazy and wrong. I can't make it any clearer than that and if you don't see this than it is because you are too brainwashed by your personal heroes. Between guns, Israel, immigrants, taxes, wars, flag-lapel pins, and voting...all of you have the idea of America all wrong. Only I am right. All of you are wrong. That is America. MY America. of the way PECK!

  • May 21, 2008, 3:46 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Because he spends money, according to the rightwing talkback intelligentsia. Of course, the Lefties would prefer to spend money on our infrastructure and social programs instead of giving it to war profiteers, but some people lack a certain .........<p> nuance <p> ........ to distinguish the two. <p> Death to Algae!

  • May 21, 2008, 3:49 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    of Edyta? If Jason didn't have a perpetual hard-on the whole time he's been dancing with her, then he is certifiably GAY.

  • May 21, 2008, 3:51 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    but our children and descendents for generations. Social programs, education, infrastructure, homeland security ... all sacrificed to pay the interest on that debt alone. And more every day. <p> Thank the Maker for DWTS. I need an escape.

  • May 21, 2008, 3:52 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    But it is Bush spending the money. Nice job, if you can get it.

  • May 21, 2008, 4:15 p.m. CST


    by m2298

    Since when is militant Christian fundamentalism identical with neoconservatism, a political philosophy that favors an aggressive foreign policy against communism and are against the nativism, protectionism, and non-interventionism of older US conservatism. Just because members of both groups support(ed) the Bush administration doesn't make them identical. In any case, David Koresh had nothing to do with any political philosophy.

  • May 21, 2008, 4:56 p.m. CST

    Reagan didn't end shit

    by Prossor

    Which cunt hair wrote that Reagan ended the Cold War/ that's a great fantasy only reaganites enjoy thinking about and stroking their thumbtack dicks. You can thank Reagan for turning the inner cities into cesspools of homelessness and opening the doors to the corporations, which have been in place ever since. Nixon is a fucking SAINT compared to Reagan.

  • May 21, 2008, 6:19 p.m. CST


    by hst666

    The Soviet economy was going to collapse anyway. Reagan most likely hastened it. If you merely claimed that Reagan assisted in ending the Cold War, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But the overly simplistic idea that Reagan is responsible for ending the Cold War is naive. The liberals were not saying live with it, they were worried, with good reason, about the crazy guy in office starting WWIII. Again, I cannot believe you are over 30 if you believe that Bullshit.

  • May 21, 2008, 6:28 p.m. CST

    Adama77... Wisdom From Abroad

    by DeeJay

    I’m with you, Adama77. For all the protestations of his defenders, not one person has claimed that Koresh/Howell wasn't trigger happy nor do they claim he ever would've cooperated with authorities. I'm surprised that the majority of Howell's supporters always seem to avoid the most critical questions. For instance, were you the ATF agents, what approach would you use to arrest a self-prophetic child molester with a violent streak? How much should we put past a man that would sexually exploit a 70-year-old woman while in his mid-30's? Since the ATF had already allowed other children to safely leave during the standoff, why did Howell choose to keep some of the children with him? Besides that, if waiting 51 days isn't long enough (and understanding Howell's intent to "wait out" the ATF), how much longer should the agency have held their agents back? I suppose they should've given 'em up 'till the Chelsea Clinton administration. The vast majority of posters on this website wouldn't get a 51-day grace period were we to ever shoot (and kill, no less) federal agents, so I disagree with the notion---supported by certain fellow posters--- that blame should be "shared." All the blame goes to Howell and whichever of his followers still had any semblance of free will. They're the ones who committed the crime(s), resisted arrest, and likely didn't see themselves beating the judicial system a second time around. The only thing more "shameful" than Howell's behavior is the fact that someone would choose to be an apologist for him. The more we do so, the greater the likelihood that we'll have more Timothy McVeighs out there. If we're going to share blame, how about placing some on the judge that gave Koresh/Howell a mistrial after shooting-up the compound *the first time*?

  • May 21, 2008, 6:29 p.m. CST

    The AICN Award for Inane Hypocrisy Goes To...

    by DeeJay

  • May 21, 2008, 6:31 p.m. CST


    by DeeJay

    Only a rare person can label a fellow poster "sexist" and follow that comment with an attack on a woman's femininity. You get the "prize," Branerbot. You get the prize.

  • May 21, 2008, 6:38 p.m. CST

    Branelessbot- break the pill in half

    by Prossor

  • May 21, 2008, 8:17 p.m. CST

    This would not have been an issue...

    by uberman

    had it occured under a Republican administration. Its only when a Democrate is in office that it inflames the lunatic fringe.

  • May 21, 2008, 8:20 p.m. CST

    No BraneRobot, Reagans Military buildup, did not end the cold wa

    by toadkillerdog

    That is a canard that is fostered by the true beleivers, but holds no basis in fact. <p> It is the diehard Republican version that ignores the Soviet reality. The trutrh is that Reagan became an appeaser. It was Reagan who propsoed that all nuclear weapons be removed. And that was only after his ealier intransigence had led to the greatest arms buildup in history on both sides. It made the Soviets even more prepared for war. <p> It was when Gorbachev took over that Reagan was able to work with a progressive leader. <p>Before I post the link that debunks the myth, let me explain something about history. <p> It is generally written from one perspective. An example: Most Americans who have an opinion of WWII, or who saw Saving Private Ryan, beleive that is was the invasion of Normandy, that not only was the greatest battle of WWII but also signaled the end of Germany.<p> True scholars of the war, and the Russion people, know differently.<p> As important as D-day was, it could not compare to the Eastern front. <p>More, battles were fought, more german lives were lost and more Russian lives were lost, on the eastern front, than in ALL of theatres of the war combined. <p> But history, at least American history ignores the fact that without the Eastern Front, D-day would have been possible, and even with D-day, it was the Russians who inflicted the heaviest damage, and thus incurred the heaviest loses, of the war. <p> Here is the link, and please read it thouroughly.

  • May 21, 2008, 8:49 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Brane matter all over the floor. What a mess. All over some algae and Zionists.

  • May 21, 2008, 9:01 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Cuz he worked with Gorbachev. Vive le Gorbachev! Vive le Reagan! Vive le 80s!

  • May 21, 2008, 10:06 p.m. CST

    "this shit is from some university professor"

    by BringingSexyBack

    That's right kiddies, you are expected to take Brane's diatribes seriously ... but not a university professor. We know of at least one person who holds Brane in such high regard, but it doesn't help to bolster Brane's standing to see Morbid Obesity fail in every debate like his mentor does. <p> Needless to say I'll risk my reputation on the word of Toadkillerdog instead, who has an actual higher education in military history, rather than making shit up like Brane, who gets his education from Fox.

  • May 21, 2008, 10:24 p.m. CST

    BraneRobot & Amazing G

    by DeeJay

    Amazing G... I've no argument with you on that one. BraneR... as many university professors are paid to conduct research (as opposed to talking heads who blur fact and opinion while pandering on the radio), how is the statement "this... is from some university professor" supposed to discredit the source? I would hope that you're not clumsily proporting the oft parroted assumption that most university professors are liberal and then leaping to assume that this particular professor is both liberal *and* biased...

  • May 21, 2008, 10:32 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    ... because you go to college instead of watching FoxNews all day. Damn you kids!

  • May 21, 2008, 10:39 p.m. CST


    by DeeJay

    ...BraneR? You do realize that the article you cited supports everthing Toadkiller wrote a little earlier, don't you? The passage, "If Yuri Andropov's kidneys hadn't given out, or if Konstantin Chernenko had lived a few years longer, Reagan's bluster and passion would have come to naught; the Cold War would probably have raged on for years" does nothing but support the argument you wish to refute. Did you simply google, "Reagan won the cold war" and post the first link that came up? 'Cause that's certainly what appears to be the case...

  • May 22, 2008, 12:11 a.m. CST

    I'm glad I have AICN to develop my political opinions

    by palooka_boy

    All I have to do is surf the talkbacks and decide if I'm going to be a racist homophobic Republican or a wacko hippie Democrat. decisions, decisions...

  • May 22, 2008, 12:17 a.m. CST


    by palooka_boy

    virtually all arguments on these boards are nullified by ad hominem. the sad truth about the Republicans and Democrats in this country is that there is no real debate anymore, its only equally hyperbolic claims about both the glory of their own party and the evils of their other, when the truth is we all lynched negroes, so everybody just shut the fuck up already, because nobody's going to change anybody's mind and you waste your time arguing. find something better to do with your lives and talk about the prospect of a fucking WACO movie instead of the god damn Cold War.

  • May 22, 2008, 1:08 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Who was your creative writing professor? <p>

  • May 22, 2008, 1:10 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    is it to America, or Israel?

  • May 22, 2008, 1:13 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    because they run counter to the NeoCon mantras. But he fails to realize that most college students have a predisposition towards Liberalism to begin with, so chalk it up to supply and demand.

  • May 22, 2008, 1:15 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    or did you just make a judgement call?

  • May 22, 2008, 1:24 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    is mired in an unsuccessful agenda to impose right-wing ideology on university curricula. Failed miserably, just like the Young Republicans did in their bid to win the hearts and minds of college students across the land.

  • May 22, 2008, 1:31 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    I can't imagine you voicing those opinions of yours at all in school, because if you did you would've been ruthlessly ridiculed. But maybe you did and that explains your contempt for the Left.

  • May 22, 2008, 2:02 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    You got a point.

  • May 22, 2008, 2:27 a.m. CST

    The ATF...

    by ebonic_plague

    ...needs to raid and firebomb this talkback.

  • May 22, 2008, 2:28 a.m. CST

    How the fuck can people think Nazi's were left wing?

    by Lost Jarv

    Cretins. They are the very embodiment of Right wing extremists- do not fall for this evil shit. <p>The reason the likes of "gullivers travels reference that I can't spell" think they were on the left is that they were totalitarian extremists, and the extremes have more in common than those nearer the centre. They were still right wing- look at the Hitler quotes I put up: the man could not ever be described as left wing. <P>"The way Reagan ended the Cold War"- Do you honestly believe that?

  • May 22, 2008, 6:08 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Reagan benefited from the timing.

  • May 22, 2008, 6:21 a.m. CST

    Peter Sellers ended the cold war

    by Lost Jarv

    Seriously, I read it somewhere. Also Mao was a human/chimp hybrid and father of a race of lizard people. <P>And he banged Maggie. Or is that too unbelievable.

  • May 22, 2008, 7:05 a.m. CST


    by toadkillerdog

    Life is not black and white, and neither is history, and that is the point I am trying to make. <p> You have stated point blank that Reagan ended the cold war. That is patently false, and only shows the viewpoint of some conservative American Republicans. <p> The whole reason for me giving the WWII example was to show that history has more than one side. <p> I am not a Reagan hater, nor do I think that the article was Reagan hatred. It was balance. In the iltalics, which perhaps you did not read, it gave he context of the article - it was a response to an Op-Ed piece of treacly Reagan love. This piece was designed to give balance. <p>Reagan deserves credit for what he helped to accomplish. He deserves credit for the change he underwent. He is blamed for too many things and given credit for too many things. Same as most Presidents. <p> Balance Branerobot, not blanket statements that support only one viewpoint. <p> The funny thing is, you dismiss the former Soviet statements out of hand, but totally embrace the Conservative revisonism version of events.<p> I am not saying that the former soviets would not try to enhance their position, but wouldn't the conservatives try the exact same thing? <p> Balance. That is what is needed, and relying on only one source of information, in your case, the conservative viewpoint, will not provide that balance.<p> More than any other thing, I am a history geek, and I want the truth. <p> I was alive and well in the 80's, in the 70', and born in the late 60's. So yes, I remember quite vividly how Reagan changed.<p> He came in breathing fire and left wanting to ban ALL nuclear weapons. <p> Something prompted that change. whether it was the protests (I think they played a part, but not as large a part as the article supposes), but something made Reagan change. <p> And it was that something combined with the new thinking of Gorbachev, that tuned the tide. <p> History has more than one side Branerobot.

  • May 22, 2008, 7:14 a.m. CST

    It doesn't matter, TKD,

    by Lost Jarv

    when he is presented with something unarguable (see the Hitler quotes above) he simply ignores it or puts up an Aunt Sally to beat on.

  • May 22, 2008, 7:22 a.m. CST

    Jarv, even Darth Vader was saved

    by toadkillerdog

    Maybe there is a spark of goodness in him! <p> Ok, maybe not. <p> But my true purpose is not necessarily to bring BR to the light, as much as it is to counter the dark he is espousing. <p> There are impressionable youth on this site, and even on a geek site like this, there should be truth and balance. <p> Someone posted earlier about how we should not be debateding WACO, and other politically charged things. I would ask him, why not? <p> Just because we are movie geeks, does not mean we do not have an opinion about other things as well. <p> Informed or otherwise.

  • May 22, 2008, 7:23 a.m. CST

    I'll give you an example

    by Lost Jarv

    He started with "liberal fascists"- I presented loads of quotes from Mussolini showing that to be horseshit so he moved to Nazi=liberal. In response I then put up 3 Hitler quotes disproving that one. So he just ignored it and started saying "when have I said I hate liberals" which is fucking ricockulous bearing in mind the amount of evidence we have on him over this. <P>He's not all there in the head. I'm only engaging him to put a stop to this Fascist left rubbish that is being put about.

  • May 22, 2008, 7:24 a.m. CST

    Spot on-

    by Lost Jarv

    If we can stop one impressionable person believing this venemous tripe he espouses then it will be worth it. <P>Not that my Doctor will think so (Skyrocketing blood pressure etc)

  • May 22, 2008, 7:38 a.m. CST

    Jarv - who are the most extreme posters - right or left on this

    by toadkillerdog

    Perhaps their numbers are not so great, but the magnifying effect, caused by their repeatedly expressed views, can do harm.

  • May 22, 2008, 7:41 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    on the right- BraneRobot, MorbidObesity, Chrism, <P>On the Left- Zfisk/ Homwrecker, GingerTwit (both banned but have new id's that I'm going to smoke out. The right has been MUCH louder than the left since the rash of 9/11 films ended. <P> BSB used to be very extreme but has mellowed lots in the last few years. I would like to include Anchorite in there somewhere, but he (although polically caveman-esque) can at least follow an argument.

  • May 22, 2008, 7:45 a.m. CST

    I am familiar with the ones on the right

    by toadkillerdog

    But I have not encountered the loony left as of yet. <p> I wandered over to the Indy TB, Abom posted, and although he enjoyed it, he said it was the Spidey 3 of the bunch.

  • May 22, 2008, 8:36 a.m. CST


    by m2298

    If supporting Zionism alone makes one a "neocon", then there are (still) quite a few liberal Democrat (or even socialist) "neocons" around. And please read some Jewish history -- for many the idea of Zionism very definitely had to do with Jewish survival, particularly when countries like the US had immigration quotas.

  • May 22, 2008, 8:43 a.m. CST


    by toadkillerdog

    Still fighting the good fight I see!

  • May 22, 2008, 8:52 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    Like in Creepshow? Brane will become an algae-strewn zombie. <P>He's already half way there

  • May 22, 2008, 9:31 a.m. CST

    Fuck me, you are one stupid son of a bitch

    by Lost Jarv

    THe 3 quotes I gave you were indicative of the man, his beliefs and his policies- I can get plenty more without too much effort. He was not left wing. Why can you not accept this. How much of his stuff do I have to present to you to get you to give this up? <P>*Bangs head on table in frustration* <P>My god- Hitler was strongly religious, believed in the strength of the family home, a strong military and was undeniably racist. How are these left wing traits? <P>For every supposedly liberal ideal you throw up I can give you something of his that is to the extreme right. <P>And that's before you even get to his support of Franco (a fascist- but so beloved of the left that the left recruited across Europe into the International Brigades to go and fight him)- You know NOTHING of history, and worse you cannot seem to understand that the extremes share more in common with each other than they do with the moderates. <P>This is so annoying.

  • May 22, 2008, 9:53 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Just curious - who was that non-Liberal creative writing instructor you had at NYU? I know a fair number of them, just curious to know which one you're talking about. <p> As for Horowitz's agenda, you've obviously got your idealogical blinders on. The Right Wing failed to assimilate college campuses like they did many Christian churches across the country. They did that by wining, dining and allying themselves with the ministers, who in turn used their influence on their flocks of sheep. They tried to do the same on colleges by bashing professors and instructors and labeling them Liberal in order to both silence them and impose upon universities to hire more Wingnuts (not necessarily true Conservatives). <p> They failed. Know why? Because colleges, being grounded in intellectual pursuits rather than the sheepish follow-the-flock mentality of religious followers, rejected them.

  • May 22, 2008, 9:57 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    he never went to college- certainly not to study either literature, philosophy or history. <P>He may have studied a more linear subject- but there is no way he woud have reached degree level and been so incapable of constructing or understanding an argument. <P>The world exists on shades of grey and Brane does not understand that

  • May 22, 2008, 10 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    He said above he graduated from NYU ... which for a variety of reasons I find baffling. Not the least of which is his - and you're quite familiar with this - pretzel logic. Truly the height of stupidity. Arguing with him is a waste of time - but fun.

  • May 22, 2008, 10:13 a.m. CST


    by m2298

    Well, feel free to argue about ancient history claims -- you did *not* dispute the fact that Zionism was an important form of Jewish survival. And the "Israel Lobby" is not some alien life form that came out of nowhere. Many ordinary individuals of many political and religious beliefs have given time, energy and money to support Israel. You also recognize Israel's right to survive (something many Palestinians and their supporters don't do)-- how do you presume to hand over the West Bank, Golan Heights, Gaza (under Hamas domination already) and East Jerusalem and still make sure that Israel will not face a much larger scale version of the almost daily rocket attacks it receives right now (not to mention a resumption of the suicide bombings)? How about access to holy places? Will you call NATO, the (generally toothless) UN? Or will US troops have to relocate from Iraq?

  • May 22, 2008, 10:32 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Give it a rest.

  • May 22, 2008, 10:43 a.m. CST

    so how's the weather?

    by m2298

  • May 22, 2008, 10:58 a.m. CST


    by toadkillerdog

    First, let me say that I found the Fred Kaplan article to be very informative. Thank you for posting it.<p> Secondly, I found the article to be not only well written, but persuasive. Once again, thank you for posting it. <p> Third, I found no discernible diference in the facts of this article and those of the particle I posted. Reagan did not end the cold war by military build-up alone, and thus bankrupting the Soviet Union, and he certainly did not do it by himself. Gorbachev was just as much responsible. <p> And that was one of the points of the article I posted, was trying to make.<p> You can not look at history as one sided. And although I disagree with some of the rhetoric that was used in the article I sent "The triumphalists" line was stoking the fire, but to put it into context, he was responding to a severely slanted op-ed piece. <p> However, rhetoric aside, the facts are not in dispute. He gives a greater voice to the Soviet side - and thus presents balance, than the Kaplan article, but reading both articles, and reading what I wrote about Reagan, shows very little if any disagreement.<p> Reagan came in as a hawk, he ignited the arms race, and legitamatley scared the soviets, to the point that an exercise damn near launched WWIII. <p> He did push them hard economically, but there was no indication from Andropov or Chernenko, that they would not have continued to meet the 'threat' of American arms build-up. <p> Reagan then did an about face, he modified his stance on Nuclear weapons so much so that he wanted ALL nukes destroyed. <p> Gorbachev did not believe him, but Reagan was sincere. But Gorbachev, left Iceland thinking he could work with Reagan, and that the U.S. would not launch a pre-emptive strike. <p> That allowed Gorbachev to push through his reforms, and that is what brought the cold war to an end.<p> Both men should be commended for the change they went through, but to say as some would, that it was Reagans hard core policies, and his policies alone that did it, ignores fact. <p> It was Reagans softening, and the fact that Gorbachev beleived Reagan was genuine in his desire to RID the world of nukes - which went entirely counter to Reagans hawkish aides, that brought about change.<p> One last thing, did you read the tail end of the article i posted? Did you read how the accepted history of the Cuban missile crisis - that Kennedy made the Russians blink, is now; while not discarded, at least does not give the entire truth.<p> It was U.S. compromises with regards to the missiles in Turkey, that did the trick. <p> And that was written by the same professor you accuse of being too liberal. <p> A liberal professor would not slam a liberal icon like Kennedy.<p> Balance Branerobot.

  • May 22, 2008, 10:59 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    pretzel logic. Perfect. <P>Salty and tied in knots. Also chokes George W. Bush.

  • May 22, 2008, 11:57 a.m. CST


    by toadkillerdog

    That was a very fair question directed at me, with regards to my not taking some of the extreme left wing posters to task. <p> My response is: I have done so on occasion, perhaps not enough to your liking though. <p> However, it is not my intention to be some sort of corrective figure on these boards, so I do not respond to each and every post that I find either stupid and or offensive. <p> I would be here all day long if I decided to respond to all of those sorts of posts. <p> So yes, I do cherry pick.<p> I choose only the 'best'!

  • May 22, 2008, 12:02 p.m. CST

    Once again, asshole

    by Lost Jarv

    What do you actually know of European History that didn't come from that cocksucker's book "Liberal Fascism"? All you are doing is repeating the same erroneous arguments that he espoused. You know nothing of the man, you don't understand the times (especially the fallout from WWI and the mood across Europe), and you have absolutely no understanding of the politics involved. You cannot admit that extremism of any sort shares similar features, instead you feel a need to paint it all as left wing. You know nothing about my beliefs becuase I never share them, all I do is stop this Left Wing nazism crap. I'm not left wing- I have a lot of right wing beliefs, but I understand that Hitler was a Fascist. I don't enter opinions on things I know nothing about- I have never made a comment about Racism in the Democrat party and nor do I comment on either Political Party (despite the fact that my wife is American), because I'm not American.<P>Hysterically, you always post that you are smarter than everyone else but you missed the obvious joke about Carter and you cannot recognise any Shade of grey. I am not a black and white thinker (Hence me REPEATEDLY stating that the far left and the far right by their nature share many of the same features). If you let this go, climbed down a bit from a laughably untenous position, then you might be able to engage in reasoned discourse. The other problem with you, is that if a source contradicts you then you immediatly label it "biased". Sure, lots of sources are biased- which is why I took pains to give you the words of the men themselves- but Bias in itself is not without illumination- marxist historical interpretations can give an insight into the mindset of the times, just like things like Liberal Fascism will for our descendants. Open your mind.<P>But no, it is easier for you to Label us all as "vile leftist scum".

  • May 22, 2008, 12:03 p.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    that should have read "laughably tenous" position. As in weak. Damn typo.

  • May 22, 2008, 12:10 p.m. CST

    And FYI Brane-

    by Lost Jarv

    Chamberlain and co, the kings of appeasement were Conservatives. You really have to understand the times to comment on this, and you don't.

  • May 22, 2008, 12:53 p.m. CST


    by m2298

    "Modern Zionism is important to Jewish survival only in that it is a detriment to it in its false claims of right to the land when it only inflames the rest of the region's pent up anger." When did "Modern Zionism" become "modern"? 1917? 1939? 1948? And are all Jewish claims "false" according to everyone, or just the writers you agree with? "And under Zionism the Temple of Solomon must be rebuilt on the exact site of a Mosque that has sat there for centuries that is one of the most holy sites for Muslims. It can't work." Except for a small number of individuals, no one is going to try to rebuild the Temple today. Even most Orthodox Jews will not go up on the Temple Mount until their Messiah arrives. And the secular (and frequently secularist) leadership of the State of Israel has no interest at all in any Temple. "As I said there is no room for those people and if they commit terrorists acts they must be brought to justice." By whom? Fatah rarely keeps these people held very long (unless they are anti-Fatah politically, and suffer for that reason). And Hamas?? "Leaving aside the fact that many people's "anti-Semitism" is due to Israe's occupation of Arab land, Arafat and the PLO did recognize Israel's right to exist, and even Hamas recognized as such very recently thanks to one Jimmy Carter." Israel negotiated with the corrupt Arafat -- without much success. Hamas wants a truce (“hudna”) , so that they can establish themselves politically, and arm themselves with better weapons. Hamas’ media is full of anti-Semitism, not just anti-Zionism, and actively indoctrinates children with violent ideas. “Nobody's talking baout "handing over" anything but one can presume through more diplomatic efforts that if Israel recognizes a shared right to those lands Hamas and especially Hezbollah won't have a leg to stand on and wil lquickly lose favor with their own people if they keep rocketing.” Hezbollah is a Lebanese group sponsored by Iran and doesn’t want to “share” anything. I doubt they would disarm even if Israel returned the tiny Shebaa Farms area. Hamas has never asked to “share” anything either, unless they are gracious enough to let a Jewish minority exist in Palestine when they take over from the river to the sea. “The UN, despite it's faults would be a good neutral policing measure to enforce access to shared land, if it comes to that. Far better than U.S. or Israeli troops.” With their track record, I wouldn’t want to depend on the UN for anything.

  • May 22, 2008, 1:13 p.m. CST


    by DeeJay

    After reading your reply, it's pretty clear that, you've done exactly what I suspected. First, you made a kneejerk assumption about a college professor that you don't know. Second, you simply used Google to find a hyperlink you thought supported your argument simply by looking at its title. Unfortunately, you didn't realize that the content of the article actually supported the argument with which you were trying to take issue. This leads me to believe that you never graduated from NYU nor read Slate on a regular basis. Furthermore, it supports what other AICN posters have already articulated... you're arguing simply for the sake of arguing. I'm not sure why you do this, as nothing good can come of it.

  • May 22, 2008, 1:26 p.m. CST

    You guys rock...

    by Darth Macchio

    A play on people's screen names? Gosh...that's brilliant. And original...oh so original. <p>The bottom line is this...either start beating the shit out of each other so the rest of us can get some actual enjoyment from this mindless ranting or stop fucking arguing and pretending there's a discourse here. And yes I'm rubbernecking this car accident of a TB because sometimes these rants are interesting...lately they're just stupid insult fests with personal mythology and perceived history thrown in here and there. My guess is some of you are right about some things and most of you are wrong about most things. But what we actually participate in is the slow degradation of truth. Has anybody "stood corrected"? Has anybody conceded even a single debate point? Are any of you even fucking capable of conceding anything? Ever?<p>What would it take for anyone to believe anyone else of opposing political idealism? If a "liberal" said it was raining, a "conservative" would say it's actually just a heavy dew. If a "conservative" said it was daytime, a "liberal" would say it's just not night-time. Reality is up for debate folks!!! Truth is for pussies!!!<p>Can you actually establish fact in this format and medium? Is there even such a thing anymore? Would any of you accede to fact as given by your opponent? What would the form of that fact have to take? What source would you actually believe? Wouldn't you not question it no matter the validity? Wouldn't you question and ultimately disbelieve any "fact" that you did not ascertain on your own? Or using whatever methods you currently use to come by your views? Are you lying on an anonymous TB board even now? Even video and photographic evidence can be faked. Why believe video? Photos? Why believe journalists? Bias is everywhere. I have my opinions some of which are based on what I know as fact but most of you would argue those aren't facts but opinions so I'm obviously full of shit and wrong...oh so wrong! And then I repeat the same horseshit to you. So what the fuck then? True objectivity is impossible but screw that! Now opinions are facts and only people who disagree with you are not being objective. DUH! Of course! Far more badass and cool-guy to be obstinate and unbending in your opinion anyway. That's what we see as strength! No mercy dude!!! God is a bullet! That's opinion!! It's *yours* after all and how can *you* be wrong? Truth is dead. The blood is on your hands.<p>Now would you please pass the JELLY!!?!?!?!?!???!?!!?!!?

  • May 22, 2008, 1:36 p.m. CST


    by m2298

    I would like to see a serious attempt by the Palestinians to *seriously* ensure that ALL factions are totally disarmed, that ALL sites holy to Jews are administered by Israel with free access. Jews should be permitted to live in the West Bank with the understanding that they will not act violently (except in self defense). Pre-1967 Israel will not be inundated with 3 million individuals under the 'right of return'. Iran and Syria will be forced to stop subsidizing Hezbollah and radical Palestinian groups. The Palestinian and Hezbollah media will cease it's anti-Jewish propaganda. How's that for a start?

  • May 22, 2008, 1:46 p.m. CST

    Darth Macchio

    by just pillow talk

    That may be the most fucking questions in one single post I've ever seen.

  • May 22, 2008, 2:09 p.m. CST

    Darth Macchio

    by toadkillerdog

    Between your lecturing, and posturing, you do occasionally make a valid point. <p> I do not think anyone in their right mind believes that the back and forth that goes on in these TB's will fundamentally alter the opinion of another. <p> But just as you are free to come in here and harangue, and lament, others are free to argue over nonsensical things, and to post bombast.<p> Sometimes, though I grant you it is rare, there is a fair and rational exchange of ideas. <p>There are a multitude of websites that any of us could be on - if we so chose, that would allow a different brand of discourse. <p> That we and you chose this particluar site, well, that must mean something. <p> But damned if I know what!

  • May 22, 2008, 2:16 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    I now see algae as the enemy. Thanks for opening my eyes Branedead! BTW B, you are so full of shit re: NYU, just like you are with everything else, feeble mind.

  • May 22, 2008, 2:18 p.m. CST


    by toadkillerdog

    It is obvious by your posts and rants, that you filter and interpret things you read based on your ideology. <p> If it does not ho to every viewpoint and strike every supportive note that you need to hear, it must automatically be false.<p> That is a very poor way of coming to a balanced and nuanced opinion about matters. <p> I am not surprised that you are that way, but once again, it shows a lack of intellectual honesty and a great deal of immaturity.

  • May 22, 2008, 2:36 p.m. CST


    by m2298

    1. They will change the demographic balance, and eventually they will vote to join the designated Palestinian state. Even Yossi Sarid agrees with this. 2. Israel is a tiny country - where do you want to house them? Frankly, I doubt that any Palestinian state will tolerate the settlers living anywhere in their territory and will expell them from their homes. Yet Israel should accept 3 million people who hate the country and cram them in somewhere?

  • May 22, 2008, 3:18 p.m. CST


    by toadkillerdog

    No, I do not cherry pick conservative, I cherry pick what I find offensive. And BSB can tell you that I have not spared him, when I felt he was wrong, just because we have been allies in the past.<p> And 'there you go again' lumping people into categories because they do not fit your conception or worldview.<p> The so -called bias you pointed out had to do with rhetoric, not with the facts. And I agreed with you that the rhetoric was uncalled for, but that it did not alter the facts, which were the same as in the Kaplan piece. <p> You just did not care to hear the views of the soviets, so automatically in your opinion, it must be false. <p> You did not care to hear that some do not kowtow to conservative rewrite of Reagan as the man who ended the cold war.<p> That is intellectual dishonesty. <p> I can say, and have said, that I found the Kaplan article very informative. <p> But it is not the only source of information.<p> However you seem to feel that any additional information - from other viewpoints, which still reach the same conclusions as in the Kaplan article, is biased!<p> And that, shows immaturity.

  • May 22, 2008, 3:36 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Well I guess we touched a nerve ... sucks to be called on your bullshit and lies, but then again you must be used to it. After all these months of posting nonsense, maybe you can give us a taste of your discourse that's not 'lowered'? Should be interesting ...

  • May 22, 2008, 3:37 p.m. CST

    do you guys realize

    by Gatsbys West Egg Omlet

    there is another, newer semi-political talkback going on?

  • May 22, 2008, 3:41 p.m. CST


    by Darth Macchio

    You're definitely correct about the lecturing and posturing which is why I usually throw in a little self-deprecation and a reveal that I'm just as partisan as any of you...just not willing to engage in a "debate" in what ultimately becomes a racket of WWE-like shouting. I'm an egoist like most everybody and more than happy to spout off on any topic and on any available soap-box.<p>But therein lies the rub....if you just apply those classic WWE character voices to people in these political TB's then it takes on a whole new level! But ego and nonsense aside, this isn't about me or anybody personally. I'm genuinely concerned with the death of truth as I feel it will lend itself to the end of this great American experiment in a democratic republic. And if that is too silly or melodramatic, then you must admit it certainly won't help the progress of the species. Particularly with things like Global Warming and things that even though one side of the argument is correct...both sides will be affected by whatever humans decide to do. But don't think I don't realize that I'm 99% full of it on these boardds....this is the reason I have fun with the Battle Royale skull-bash-fest! And you must admit, seeing opinionated people beat each other senseless could easily be the next best reality show EVER!!!! (cable or ppv weinerfied regular tv)

  • May 22, 2008, 4:24 p.m. CST


    by DeeJay

    After reading your last reply to me, it's good to see that, much like Reagan, you've now softened your stance on Cold War history. While it's beyond obvious that you simply Googled the article you previously posted in this discussion and didn’t graduate from NYU, your new perspective is welcomed. As an aside, the manner in which you used the phrase "someone of superior intellect"--- a phrase almost exclusively used by middle and high school students--- is telling. As do your irrational challenges for someone to prove a negative ("prove Hitler wasn't a Leftist") and your juvenile name-calling ("vile leftist scumbags") also belie certain things about you. Even still, I'm glad that you later read the article you posted to this page, and now have a "slightly" more balanced interpretation of Cold War events. Do you also believe that Fred Kaplan (the author of your forwarded article) has exhibited the same balance and fair-minded approach in his criticisms of the Bush administration? Whatever the case, I hope we can migrate back to discussing Vernon Howell and the Branch Davidians. Until then, I’m just glad you can now agree with Toadkiller about something.

  • May 22, 2008, 4:30 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    There's just Branedead and his mental midget circus act. He exists solely for our amusement and abuse.

  • May 22, 2008, 4:43 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Without a doubt, and by rational people both Left and Right. I don't know much about MOM but Brane stands alone as the vilest because of his opinions on genocide and real life matters, not relatively insignificant things like Indy and Terminator ...

  • May 22, 2008, 6:17 p.m. CST

    BraneR... {sigh}

    by DeeJay

    Now I see why people simply flame you. Is anyone supposed to believe that it's a mere coincidence that the very first result Google produces for "Reagan won the cold war" just so happens to be the article you claim to have been sending people for years? This becomes even more interesting when one considers that the article is 4 years old and doesn't even support your original claim. The fact that you continue parroting such an obvious lie reveals a great deal about the "thought process" you reference. Let's also disregard the “minor” fact that I never labeled you as an individual... yet you bandy about profanity as if you just discovered four letter words in the last 2 days. Were you *not* under the age of 19, most rational people would consider you someone in great need of intervention. So, let's go there. If you--- after implying that you're a Republican--- haven't voted for George W. Bush, then whom *did* you vote for in the last 2 presidential elections? You've done nothing to convince me that you were old enough to vote either time, but I'm curious as to your response. Also... why are you "pro anyone Muslims hate?" Finally... since you've openly claimed to have intellect "superior" to a number of others on this board, on what basis do you draw that conclusion?

  • May 22, 2008, 6:18 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    But what else is new?

  • May 22, 2008, 6:23 p.m. CST

    Sorry, Hitler WAS NOT A LIBERAL

    by CarmillaVonDoom

    It is a fact that communists and nazi brownshirts were engaged in near-daily street battles in many German cities throughout the 1920's. One of the first acts that Hitler pushed through the Reichstag after he gained power was the BANNING OF THE COMMUNIST PARTY. One of the main supporters of Hitler in America was Henry Ford...some liberal!

  • May 22, 2008, 7:25 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I second BSB in that BraneRobot (aka AnimalStructure & Thunderballs) is more hated than M-O-M. In fact, I believe he is the most loathed Talkbacker since zfisk (aka homewrecker) in his heyday. Brane's repulsiveness may only be equalled by Equinas (a Talkbacker who enjoys horsefucking). Make of that what you will...

  • May 22, 2008, 7:29 p.m. CST

    Statements like this: "I am pro anyone Muslims hate"...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...are symptomatic of what is wrong with this asshole. It's especially perplexing when you consider that BraneRobot believes Islam should be "eradicated". (His word.)

  • May 22, 2008, 7:30 p.m. CST

    BraneRobot = Rev. Rod Parsley

    by Mr. Nice Gaius


  • May 23, 2008, 3:35 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    Au Contraire- fuckspoon, I have repeatedly given you quotes from Hitler, policy and facts that show that Hitler was NOT on the left. This is getting a bit frustrating, and I can also easily show you why Liberal Fascism is a deeply flawed and fundamentally wrong tome. <P>However, seeing as it says all the things you want to hear, it is impossible for me to make any difference. <P>I'll just correct a couple of YOUR actual quotes though and then leave it as this TB is dead. <P>1)"utmost respect by using "Herr" Hitler instead of just Hitler"- Herr is German for Mr. When editorials nowadays refer to the leader of a foreign state the always call him by Mr. in his native tongue. In the 20's and 30's- a more formal polite age, to not do so would have been an appaling breach. This is what I mean about you having no understanding of the times- you have made a crass assumption and utterly failed to contextualise it. <P>2)"The Left wholeheartedly supported fascism back in the 1920's and 30's"- No it didn't. Many commentators on the left and right thought Fascism was a good thing, true, but more in its opposition to communism than for itself- and the commentators and leaders of the time were wrong- something many of them admitted when the true horror of Fascism was revealed. In actual fact, the left mobilised into the International Brigades and engaged Franco's fascists (who were supported by Hitler and Germany) in Spain- this is established, documented fact from persons such as George Orwell. To say that the left was throwing tea parties for Hitler is erroneous and laughable. <p>3)I haven't ducked the question, in fact I gave you the words of the Fascists themselves to show you that they were not Left wing. You , on the other hand, simply rehash the arguments from that book and disregard the words of the men themselves. I don't understand how, when I give you quotations from them, you can ignore it because you quote "policy" yet when Carmilla gives you a policy you find another reason. I have also given you policy that you ignore. It's like peeling an onion, arguing with you- we break through one festering layer to find another one beneath just as rotten.

  • May 23, 2008, 3:37 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    Au Contraire- fuckspoon, I have repeatedly given you quotes from Hitler, policy and facts that show that Hitler was NOT on the left. This is getting a bit frustrating, and I can also easily show you why Liberal Fascism is a deeply flawed and fundamentally wrong tome. <P>However, seeing as it says all the things you want to hear, it is impossible for me to make any difference. <P>I'll just correct a couple of YOUR actual quotes though and then leave it as this TB is dead. <P>1)"utmost respect by using "Herr" Hitler instead of just Hitler"- Herr is German for Mr. When editorials nowadays refer to the leader of a foreign state the always call him by Mr. in his native tongue. In the 20's and 30's- a more formal polite age, to not do so would have been an appaling breach. This is what I mean about you having no understanding of the times- you have made a crass assumption and utterly failed to contextualise it. <P>2)"The Left wholeheartedly supported fascism back in the 1920's and 30's"- No it didn't. Many commentators on the left and right thought Fascism was a good thing, true, but more in its opposition to communism than for itself- and the commentators and leaders of the time were wrong- something many of them admitted when the true horror of Fascism was revealed. In actual fact, the left mobilised into the International Brigades and engaged Franco's fascists (who were supported by Hitler and Germany) in Spain- this is established, documented fact from persons such as George Orwell. To say that the left was throwing tea parties for Hitler is erroneous and laughable. <p>3)I haven't ducked the question, in fact I gave you the words of the Fascists themselves to show you that they were not Left wing. You , on the other hand, simply rehash the arguments from that book and disregard the words of the men themselves. I don't understand how, when I give you quotations from them, you can ignore it because you quote "policy" yet when Carmilla gives you a policy you find another reason. I have also given you policy that you ignore. It's like peeling an onion, arguing with you- we break through one festering layer to find another one beneath just as rotten.

  • May 23, 2008, 3:42 a.m. CST


    by Lost Jarv

    Au Contraire- fuckspoon, I have repeatedly given you quotes from Hitler, policy and facts that show that Hitler was NOT on the left. This is getting a bit frustrating, and I can also easily show you why Liberal Fascism is a deeply flawed and fundamentally wrong tome. <P>However, seeing as it says all the things you want to hear, it is impossible for me to make any difference. <P>I'll just correct a couple of YOUR actual quotes though and then leave it as this TB is dead. <P>1)"utmost respect by using "Herr" Hitler instead of just Hitler"- Herr is German for Mr. When editorials nowadays refer to the leader of a foreign state the always call him by Mr. in his native tongue. In the 20's and 30's- a more formal polite age, to not do so would have been an appaling breach. This is what I mean about you having no understanding of the times- you have made a crass assumption and utterly failed to contextualise it. <P>2)"The Left wholeheartedly supported fascism back in the 1920's and 30's"- No it didn't. Many commentators on the left and right thought Fascism was a good thing, true, but more in its opposition to communism than for itself- and the commentators and leaders of the time were wrong- something many of them admitted when the true horror of Fascism was revealed. In actual fact, the left mobilised into the International Brigades and engaged Franco's fascists (who were supported by Hitler and Germany) in Spain- this is established, documented fact from persons such as George Orwell. To say that the left was throwing tea parties for Hitler is erroneous and laughable. <p>3)I haven't ducked the question, in fact I gave you the words of the Fascists themselves to show you that they were not Left wing. You , on the other hand, simply rehash the arguments from that book and disregard the words of the men themselves. I don't understand how, when I give you quotations from them, you can ignore it because you quote "policy" yet when Carmilla gives you a policy you find another reason. I have also given you policy that you ignore. It's like peeling an onion, arguing with you- we break through one festering layer to find another one beneath just as rotten.

  • May 23, 2008, 3:43 a.m. CST

    Woah- Server went down and I've triple posted

    by Lost Jarv


  • May 23, 2008, 5:52 a.m. CST

    I'm thinkin Romantic Comedy with Tom Hanks in the lead?

    by Maniaq

    Hanks: "I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit - it's the only way to be sure!" <p> Hillary Duff: "Oh, JAMES!" <p> <p> too obvious? <p> ok , but seriously, I only got halfway down the posts so far but nobody seems to have mentioned something I would have thought was pretty relevant (without casting a judgement either way on anyone's innocence or guilt) - <p> In the US, the "right" to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution - does anyone know why? <p> It's so you can overthrow your government if you need to (no joke!) <p> Point being, if you wanna take down a child molester, that's one thing, but getting nervous because someone is amassing enough weapons for "a small army" is borderline abuse of the power your people gave you. <p> All I'm saying...

  • May 23, 2008, 6:08 a.m. CST

    final line of the movie-

    by Maniaq

    Matthew McConaughey: "Some day this war's gonna end..."

  • May 23, 2008, 6:48 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Just like he pretends he went to New York University. Otherwise he'd know the Times traditionally addresses everyone with Mr. or Ms. Even Mr. Bin Laden and Mr. Olmert. <p> Oh what a web we weave, when we practice to deceive ...

  • May 23, 2008, 6:53 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    over racism but over power. <p> You're so enlightening, Brane. Any more factoids on NYU you care to Google?

  • May 23, 2008, 6:57 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    that must be eradicated and Jews are unfortunate victims of their bastard religion. <p> Embrace Buddhism instead, Brane. You'll be much happier and more at peace. But be aware - Buddhists don't lie.

  • May 23, 2008, 7 a.m. CST

    yeah, telling their beliefs are garbage

    by just pillow talk

    will go over well. Let me ask you why religion bothers you so much? Does every single person who believes in religion an extremist? <p>Just like any other belief or ideology, it's when it's taken to the extreme where it needs to be fought, a la Braneballs and his "I am pro anyone Muslims hate".<p>Careful with your train of thought Node, because extremism thought in any manner can be dangerous.

  • May 23, 2008, 7:01 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Sounds more like he's living in the woods and The Happening is happening to him.

  • May 23, 2008, 7:01 a.m. CST

    fuck me, too early in the morning...

    by just pillow talk

    "telling them their beliefs are garbage"<p>Gah!

  • May 23, 2008, 7:02 a.m. CST

    if he does...

    by just pillow talk

    he can come visit me in southwestern Connecticut. We can have a little "chat".

  • May 23, 2008, 7:05 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Actually you and Yack live pretty close to each other. EAST COAST REPRESENT WOOT WOOT

  • May 23, 2008, 7:09 a.m. CST


    by just pillow talk

    As does Orcus and, if I'm not mistaken, Rickey Henderson.

  • May 23, 2008, 7:13 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    But did y'all notice that rabid response he got for it? Like I said, Brane exists solely for our amusement. And abusement.

  • May 23, 2008, 7:15 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    in real life, at least a few years ago I think.

  • May 23, 2008, 7:18 a.m. CST


    by just pillow talk

    BSB. Then everyone can see how fucked up he is. <p>Enjoy the caps lock? :-)

  • May 23, 2008, 7:23 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    but the only recruit so far is Gotham ... he's a good little disciple though.

  • May 23, 2008, 7:26 a.m. CST

    first time I've heard "good" used with Gotham

    by just pillow talk

    So, unrelated to what has transpired before, but I read this on CNN regarding the Earthquake in China, and one survivor in particular:<p> Alatanbagen Taoqi, 60, from China's ethnic Daur minority, was in an office building when it collapsed during the May 12 quake, The Nanjing Morning Post said. He was the only person in the building to survive, the report said.<p> In 1976, he survived an earthquake in Tangshan city in northeast China that killed almost a quarter of a million people. He was trapped under a pile of bricks for 10 days before being rescued, the paper reported.<p>That's amazing.

  • May 23, 2008, 7:40 a.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    But that one tops it. Wow.

  • May 23, 2008, 8 a.m. CST

    I've never seen Pillows threaten actual

    by Lost Jarv

    non stationary related violence. Brane seems to have that effect on people.

  • May 23, 2008, 8:23 a.m. CST

    nah Jarv...

    by just pillow talk

    We'll just sit down and watch "Little Einsteins" together.

  • May 23, 2008, 10:18 a.m. CST


    by DeeJay

    ... yes, I noticed that BraneR responded with vitriol and vexations whenever there was a need to divert attention away from the holes in either his/her fabricated identity or argument. It's almost as if BraneR fantasizes about being Travis Bickle from "Taxi Driver," and becomes agitated whenever that fantasy is threatened. In the end, BraneR isn't a fellow poster with a nickname. BraneR is merely someone's online avatar.

  • May 23, 2008, 11:15 a.m. CST

    Nuke the Middle East

    by Luscious.868

    I'm sick and fucking tired of the religious bull shit in that region. Nuke the fucker. Problem solved.

  • May 23, 2008, 12:37 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Kindly point to the "lies" I've told, Branedead. I'll gladly disprove them, which is something you're clearly incapable of doing. <p> You babble so much in an attempt to vindicate yourself the only thing you manage is embarassment to levels never achieved by any talkbacker. That - is amusing. <p> I think you forgot to call me a "Jew-hating" flabby labia cunt. Don't trip up now, Brane.

  • May 23, 2008, 1:06 p.m. CST

    When it comes to BraneRobot...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...I think we are now witnessing a classic Talkbacker meltdown. It started over in the Rumsfeld TB (where he got his ass kicked), it has continued here, and it now appears to be spilling over into the Hooper/Cheney thread.<P>He's just rambling now. Amusement personified.

  • May 23, 2008, 1:28 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Liar, eh? Yeah, you keep saying that despite the fact that you have NEVER provided any evidence of this weird theory of yours. Unlike myself, as I have routinely pointed out your disgustingly warped views and hypocrisy. You're a vile human being, Brane. And I'm not the only one who has pointed this out, buddy.<P>As for staying engaged in a Talkback, who gives fuck what you think?! Whether you do or don't makes no difference to me. All I know is that with each post, you leave more and more evidence of your circular, insane logic on display for everyone here at AICN. So, by all means, carry on...<P> typical hateful, misguided scumbag.

  • May 23, 2008, 1:37 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    The beginning of the end was when you called him out on his advocacy of genocide. Brilliant. The guy who supports the eradication and genocide of Muslims but doesn't 'advocate' it. Classic, goes down in AICN political TB history. NYU should sue Brane for defiling their good reputation.

  • May 23, 2008, 1:51 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Well, unlike you (naturally) I never stated I was an NYU grad so there is no onus upon me to prove anything. Also unlike you, I'm not dumb enough (naturally) to give out so much personal information that a phone call or email would ID me. But you have one hell of a big mouth, so you're bound to do just that at least once a day. So to sum up so far: you're a liar, you lack any sense of logic, you're a genocidal racist, a hypocrite and feeble-minded despite repeated claims of being able to engage in intellectual discourse. Let's see what else you can add to that list.

  • May 23, 2008, 3:14 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Seriously...what the fuck is wrong with you? Why do you continue on this course of self-destruction?<P>Are you truly this monstrous or are you putting on a show for the sake of messageboard shits & giggles?

  • May 23, 2008, 3:16 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    BSB and I have had a number of full-on Flame Wars in the past. Not once (and I give him credit on this) has he ever advocated the "extermination of the Jews".<P>So, I'm sure you will understand when I say that it sounds like you're making shit up again, Brane.<P>SHOCKER.

  • May 23, 2008, 3:20 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Brane knows he has fucked up royally on a number of occasions now. Watching him go back and try to re-nuance his statements and intent just leads to him digging the hole...deeper and deeper.<P>It's basic denial and hypocrisy - when you're going down, just keep flinging the bullshit.

  • May 23, 2008, 3:39 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Nope, a TB meltdown is when you lash out at everyone, hurling expletives and desperate rantings that are supposed to prove your non-existent point. Nice try though.

  • May 23, 2008, 4:14 p.m. CST

    Dear Lord...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I say you're having a meltdown...and then you say I'm having one. What a brilliant deflective tactic you've latched onto there. Whatever.<P>Have a good weekend, Brane. Try not to hate America too much!

  • May 23, 2008, 5:15 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    "BSB and others calling for the extermination of the Jews" <p> Like MNG said, I've never advocated such a thing, so I'd like you to produce a quote where I ("and others") did. Maybe I said "exfoliating", because I advocate good skin care for everyone, including the Jews. If you can't produce a quote, add that to the abundance of lies you've dropped on this TB alone. <p> Feeble mind. NYU? In your dreams.

  • May 23, 2008, 5:39 p.m. CST

    BSB and MNG

    by DeeJay

    MNG... of course, you described what's been occurring throughout the second half of this talkback. Every time someone exposes BraneR for being an avatar, she/he tries to repackage their argument and throw it back at them or another AICN poster. You'll notice that this has even included BraneR's lexicon (with most of the post-10th grade words being lifted from a prior post in the very same AICN talkback). In the end, BraneR is arguing for the sake of arguing, and lying for the sake of sport. We're really wasting our time going back and forth on this, though. There are far better ways to spend the weekend that's now upon us.

  • May 23, 2008, 5:46 p.m. CST

    Branebot and Jarv,

    by Stevie Grant

    I only read a very little of yalls postings, and yall or someone else might have covered this, but US "right" and "left" do not equate to European "right" and "left." For the most part, the late modern and, thus far, post-modern, right wing Euro parties share very little with US "conservative" views (and neither have Republicans since Bush got in office...). And, yes, I know this is a massive simplification, but the US is a two-party majority system, not a parliament (again, generalization)... but still, come on. There are massive political and cultural divides between the roots and philosophy of the American "right" and the Europe roots and philosophy of the European "right."

  • May 23, 2008, 5:50 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Although beating Brane down is in itself a sport. Kinda fun. Have a great weekend - catch some good movies!

  • May 23, 2008, 11:42 p.m. CST


    by BringingSexyBack

    Your tactics are inferior copies of others', as is your "extensive vocabulary". It's plainly obvious. <p> Sorry but you're pretty much alone around here in your genocidal tendencies. And I don't think you're scoring any points with defending the Jews either, because you really suck at it and you're an embarassment. <p> Why did you choose NYU for the lies you concocted? Why are you asking me? You tell us. <p> I can only guess that attending NYU was part of some fantasy you nurtured to compensate for the reality of your pathetic, pointless, and angry life ... and in your defective mind you actually came to believe it. But it's such an obvious lie coming from someone so primitive as you.

  • May 24, 2008, 9:46 a.m. CST


    by DeeJay

    .... BraneR pledges to continue ripping-off AICN posters (e.g. "throwing" our arguments and lexicon "back" in our collective "face"). At the same time, she/he continues to steal dialog from camp movie villains (e.g. "vile scum" and "feeble arguments"). Hopefully, Harry Knowles is paying this person for such a performance. If the actor playing BraneR isn't careful, she might actually start using that camp dialog in real life. BSB... you have a great weekend, too! I'm hoping to catch part 4 of th eIndy series...

  • May 25, 2008, 12:30 a.m. CST

    TEXAS has to return the polygamous children

    by Mace Tofu

    because the raid was based on a tip from a Obama delegate who pretended to be a 16 year old victim from the polygamous sect. "In her little baby voice, she said, 'If you rescue me, and I get out of here, do you think the black people will hurt me?". Rozita Swinton, the woman arrested 4-18 for falsely tipping off the police that she was an abused child bride at the FLDS polygamy cult in Texas is a PLEDGED BARACK OBAMA STATE DELEGATE! Texas officials raided the YFZ Ranch to investigate the later-discounted abuse allegation. A unanimous nine-page decision, the three-judge panel said the Department of Family and Protective Services' case was legally and factually insufficient and 51st District Judge Barbara Walther acted improperly when she ordered about 450 children to stay in state custody.

  • May 27, 2008, 4:38 a.m. CST

    Last. And Stevie

    by Lost Jarv

    I know this. I am British. BraneRobot does not. <P>The Nazis and other fascists by any stretch of the imagination belong on the right. <P>And Brane- FInd me one quote where Hitler said he modelled Nazism on Socialism. Just one.

  • June 10, 2008, 2:22 a.m. CST


    by Stevie Grant

    Neither Hitler nor Stalin were right wing in the US political spectrum. All big government is liberal in the US, regardless of whether or not the big gov. is fascist or commie, anyone in favor of more, or, even less than a massive shrinkage of the the federal government, is left-winger or liberal in the US.