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Moriarty’s One Thing I Love Today! JIMMY CARTER MAN FROM PLAINS!
Hey, everyone. “Moriarty” here.
Y’know, I’m not even sure this film ever screened here in LA. It must have played here at some point... I mean, if it played theatrically anywhere, I assume it would have been here. But I missed it completely. It’s one of those films that was easy to dismiss, too, when I was occasionally reminded of it. “What is it? A Jimmy Carter documentary?” It seemed like a film I would maybe watch but never spend any actual energy tracking down.
So of course, here I am telling you that it is worth the energy. Track it down. This is a great movie.
Jonathan Demme is a fascinating filmmaker, and I have a love/hate relationship with his work. I’m a big fan of his early movies, like HANDLE WITH CARE or MELVIN AND HOWARD or his mesmerizing Hitchcock riff LAST EMBRACE. His first step into documentary filmmaking was STOP MAKING SENSE, which still stands as one of the great concert films of all time. He also shot Spalding Gray’s monologue piece SWIMMING TO CAMBODIA around that same time, as well as a TV documentary on Haiti. As a narrative filmmaker, he was all over the map from day one. I find it hard to believe that the same guy who made CAGED HEAT also made MARRIED TO THE MOB or SWING SHIFT. Obviously SILENCE OF THE LAMBS was his biggest moment as a filmmaker, at least as far as the pop culture world is concerned, but it also may have been one of the worst things that could have happened to him as a director. Once you make an Oscar-wining Best Picture, people try to pigeonhole you, and Demme’s always been resistant to that. I prefer the Demme who followed up with COUSIN BOBBY, a sweet and kind-hearted documentary about his cousin, a white Episcopalian priest in Harlem, to the crass Oscar-bait of PHILADELPHIA. That movie felt to me like the sort of film he “had” to make after becoming an Oscar-winner, just like BELOVED. Phony prestige pictures. At the same time, Demme found himself doing a lot more music documentaries, like STOREFRONT HITCHCOCK or THE COMPLEX SESSIONS, and he followed up his worst film ever (the awful THE TRUTH ABOUT CHARLIE) with one of his most intriguing, the documentary THE AGRONOMIST. Then THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE came out and tanked and he sort of vanished from view for a few.
As much as I liked his Neil Young concert film HEART OF GOLD a few years ago, I think it’s JIMMY CARTER MAN OF PLAINS that proves the fire is still burning for this quirky filmmaker. This movie manages to blend the folksy charm of some of Demme’s best early work with the keen social insight of THE ARGONOMIST, and the result is not at all what I would have expected in a film about the 39th President of the United States. This isn’t a film about Jimmy Carter’s whole life, and it’s not really a film about his background as a man from a farming family, despite that title. More than anything, this is a movie about anyone who has an idea that they are trying to impart in this media age, and just how hard it can be to get that idea across simply, effectively, and without anyone else’s agenda coloring it. You don’t have to like anything Carter says to enjoy this film, and you don’t have to remotely agree with him. Considering much of this film is about his views on Israel and Palestine, it’s probably a good thing that this isn’t meant to be a lecture on his views, a la AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH. This is an intimate look at what happens when he writes a controversial book and then embarks on a media tour to try and get the message of that book out into the mainstream.
He chooses an intentionally provocative title, something he states several times near the start of the film. PALESTINE: PEACE NOT APARTHEID is no doubt a kick in the gut to many Israelis or even to Jews around the world, and Carter knows that it’s going to spark discussion of what he sees as a deplorable situation. What he’s not prepared for is the way people turn on him and begin to tear him down for simply questioning something he sees as wrong. Alan Dershowitz, who’s known Carter for years, goes so far as to call him anti-Semitic and challenges him to a debate. People start to challenge the accuracy of Carter’s text and even accuse him of plagiarism. He’s called a liar, a coward, a bigot. And little by little, as this 82-year-old man with this impossible energy and this indefatigable good will travels the country doing talk shows and lectures and book signings, he is worn down. Not because he believes he’s wrong, but because he is so personally wounded by these attacks on his credibility and his character.
Look, it’s hard enough for people to fess up in a public forum when they’re blatantly wrong about something, but when you genuinely believe you are right, and you’re still being torn down, it can be devastating to your very sense of identity. There’s a lecture Carter gives towards the end of this film that is moving and powerful because Carter doesn’t pretend to be impervious to all of this sound and fury building against him. He can sense how deeply hurt people are by his words, and we watch as the way he expresses his ideas evolves. He still holds the same core beliefs at the end of the film... but he’s figured out a way he can share those beliefs that includes, rather than excludes. He seems to realize that provocation is easy, but genuinely engaging someone in an exchange of ideas can be incredibly difficult. The grace and the wit and the passion with which Carter handles himself is what defines him as a public figure, and it’s a valuable lesson for anyone who wishes to debate others in a public way these days. I wish I had 1/10th the class and the strength of character that Jimmy Carter exhibits in this film, and I genuinely thank Jonathan Demme for reminding me why this man has been more relevant in the years after his Presidency than he was when he held that office. It’s a remarkable film, and well worth a look now that it’s arrived on DVD.
Drew McWeeny, Los Angeles
Drew McWeeny, Los Angeles
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not a plant....
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Think I actually want to see this now...
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Good write-up; it sounds quite fascinating. I'm putting it in the Netflix que...NOW!
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worst president ever.
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...extra points there for coolness
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...07:22:46 PM. Unreal.
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it's in my queue
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gotta love that can't do anything right leadership.
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you took the words right out of my mind.
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Good job Mori. I Netflixed this when Harold put it in his dvd columnn.
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Quote: "I was quick on the trigger tonight."Translation: "I have no life."Well, then by all means...spam away. But make sure you really kill this Talkback. Because we all know that's what this website needs more of.
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sounds interesting.
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is the funniest thing I've read all day!! ROFL!!! Thanks, guys! You really know how to cheer me up! APRIL FOOLS, INDEED! -
Yeah, you support Jimmah Carter! Where's the "Billy Beer" ads? LMFAO!
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I was 5 or 6 years old in the backseat of my mom's car. As we would wait 3hrs a day, sometimes longer to get gasoline. Thanks Jimmy. Those were great times
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"this man has been more relevant in the years after his Presidency than he was when he held that office" - No shit!!! Worst president ever. And we've had some stinkers.
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You are one damned fine writer. Your review was insightful, creatively put together and as thoughtful as it was concise. Again and again you prove that you're the best writer on the site--and that's actually saying a lot. Thanks for that even-better-than-usual review. Shit, JIMMY CARTER MAN FROM PLAINS sounds legitimately amazing and specifically because of your review I'm going to see the doc ASAP. Thanks again, man. You rule.
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This movie has been effectively been "erased" from the viewing public in the United States like something out of Orwell's 1984. It's not even being reviewed let alone screened in most cities. You're not even allowed to DISCUSS Israel's wall in American media and if you know too much about it, you're an "anti-semite." Most Americans dont know dont care about what's going on over there and the media strives mightily to keep it that way. Similar reviews to yours, Drew in the odd college paper has have viciously attacked by right wing pro-israeli groups and I expect this talkback will be flooded with propaganda about Carter as well. However this is a great movie and a great book. IF YOU ARE AN AMERICAN AND CARE AT ALL ABOUT WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE MIDDLE EAST GO SEE THIS MOVIE
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You're looking mortality in the eye and trying to get into heaven with all this SERIOUS cinema of late, aren't you, sir? =) (Good pick, BTW.)
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Have you been sleeping in a fucking cave for seven years? Mark my words: Bush will go down in history as the worst president ever. I was a republican until his administration redefined what America means to the world. That stated, Carter *did* suck as president but *has* been one of the best ex-presidents ever. He really did deserve that Nobel Peace Prize for his tireless and innovative humanitarian work. And if you doubt that, do some research, fellers.
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Is the commission still out on that? I couldn't make the last meeting.
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Apr 01, 2008 8:31:28 PM CDT
Jimmy Carter : Brother of the man who brought us Billy Beer
by alice cooper stalker
I think that is a more appropriate title.
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Some patriot.
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well reported instance concerning Carter's book at George Washington University... this exerpt is from wikipedia, you can find many other reports online:
On March 8, 2007 George Washington University hosted a visit by Carter during which he discussed his book. According to Beth Schwartzapfel, in her report published in The Forward, a group of Jewish students led by Robert Fishman, executive director of the campus Hillel, dominated the microphones, preventing other students from asking their own questions, while asking questions critical of Carter prepared, forwarded, and distributed to them in advance by faculty and students at Emory University as if they were their own questions:
The sheet distributed to students listed five questions. Among the issues raised were Carter’s refusal to debate Harvard Law School professor Alan Dershowitz and former U.S. Middle East negotiator Dennis Ross; continuing Palestinian violence in Gaza; Carter’s assertion that Israel did not accept Clinton’s peace proposal; whether donations from the Saudi royal family explains [sic] the failure of the Carter Center to criticize human rights abuses in Saudi Arabia, and Carter’s decision to use the word “apartheid” in his book’s title.
One of the students involved in distributing the handout, Aviva Berman, said that four of the five questions came directly from a list prepared by Deborah Lipstadt and other professors at Emory University, prior to Carter’s appearance at the school’s campus in Atlanta. "When Carter came to speak at Emory, they had those questions made up, so they just forwarded them to me", she told the Forward.[43]
Dershowitz is the Jewish equivalent of Al Sharpton, the attack dog who makes outlandish statements on behalf of the far right israeli lobby to entangle anyone who makes unacceptable statements. According to him Carter is an anti-semite... actually anyone who says anything critical of Israel is an anti semite. from wikipedia an incident at Harvard in 2002:
In spring 2002, as reported later by the Harvard Crimson, a "petition, which calls for Harvard and MIT to divest from Israel and from American companies that sell arms to Israel, [and which] also calls for the U.S. government to stop supplying weapons until four specific conditions are met by the Israeli government," gathered signatures from 74 Harvard and 56 MIT faculty members, totaling over 600 signatures in all.[13] Among the signatures was that of Harvard's Winthrop House Master Paul D. Hanson, who "signed the petition as a professor of Near Eastern Languages and Civilizations" and whom Dershowitz "publicly challenged...to a debate over the Israel divestment petition."[13] But "saying Hanson had turned down his offer, Dershowitz staged a solo debate in the Winthrop Junior Common Room [at Harvard]. Standing beside a chair with a copy of the petition taped to it, he said students and professors who had signed the petition were antisemitic and knew 'basically nothing about the Middle East.'" According to Adams, "'Your House master is a bigot and you ought to know that,' he told the crowd of about 200 students. 'Everyone else who signed that petition is also a bigot.'"
alan dershowitz, great defender of free speech and civil rights... except when his own interests are challenged -
I don't know if you heard, but President Carter is working on a new book about the educational crisis in the African-American community. It'll be called "Why Nig**rs Are So Dumb". When confronted by African-American leaders about the book's factual inaccuracies and under-researched allegations, Mr. Carter will point out that he chose the title "in order to provoke debate". When challenged to actually debate his provably false assertions, Mr. Carter will - again - run like a little girl, to tightly controlled venues that treat him with the unquestioning awe and respect reserved for a "cultural icon". The entire adventure will be documented by Oliver Stone and the resulting film will be called: "Jimmy Carter: The Greatest Guy Who's Ever Lived".
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Jimmy Carter Made Dubya look like a genius of a President (yes I am saying Dubya is dumb too- not nearly AS dumb as Jimmy….but kinda dumb nonetheless). But listening to Jimmy blather on about things he had a hand in screwing up and still amazingly doesn’t understand at ALL is like watching a 5 year old wipe poop on a rug…. my goodness Moriarty, I love ya but articles like this are just painful.
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The first nanosecond I glanced at the screen I thought that John Carter of Mars was finally seeing the light of day!
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Yes this movie has been squashed - just like the amazing works of Ed Wood...I can’t Believe people ignore these amazing works of art and brillinace!
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are you that ignorant or simply spreading propaganda so this talkback doesn't actually discuss the movie? Carter is the only President who's actually DONE ANYTHING constructive in the middle east in 30 years. CAMP DAVID ACCORDS??? ever heard of it? between egypt and israel? even reagan and clinton have done squat to fix the situation between israel and the arabs. The Camp David Accords are probably the most significant progress towards peace in the middle east in most of our lifetimes... so effective in fact that most of you probably dont remember a time when war between egypt and israel was a real possibility. but go ahead... if you're pro-israel or just stupid go ahead and make retarded comments about Carter... most of you weren't even alive when he was president and probably cant remember a thing about his administration.
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Neither one are academics, but at least Carter can put together a cogent sentence on his own without fucking it up. Gorilla, what evidence can you cite to back up your assertion?My evidence, you ask? Exhibit A: http://tinyurl.com/37hzpp
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that other movie, John Carter Man from Mars or something?
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Apr 01, 2008 8:48:53 PM CDT
yeah carter only graduated with honors from the Naval Academy
by happy boy
and was literally a NUCLEAR ENGINEER qualified for command of our attack subs. what a dumbass
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Ladies and gents: behold what our education system hath produced!
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TB geniuses on board.
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http://blissfultones.net/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/carter.jpg
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Carter was far from a great president but this has nothing to do with his presidency. I'm also not saying Israel needs to pull out tomorrow from Gaza. But none of you all have a problem that in AMERICA we cant even DISCUSS this? Ex-Presidents, college professors who even broach the subject are subject to all manner of dirty tricks simply for being a decent American and voicing their views... no one has a problem with that?
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We'll send you a copy of TDK in the mail. In VHS too! ALL YOUR BASES ARE BELONG TO JIMMY!!!!!
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Apr 01, 2008 8:59:42 PM CDT
Dershowitz likes asian chicks because they are "deferential to
by happy boy
it's true Mike Barincle told me. but then he got sued by dershowitz. :( what to believe...
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true story from a few years back about my man dershowitz. but ok time to stop posting. have fun on this TB guys.
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which would obviously have made a more enticing title for this doc.
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like women who are deferential to men. Gimme a chick that will knock me around any day of the week.
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a movie with the keen social insight of the Argominist. ...er, armonogist> Monogamist? Gormonghast? Argon in the mist? Welll, it's keen and insightful, that the important thing. Just like the arminguest.
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and the asian chicks don't you?He fucked them--ALL of them--"in his heart,"
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Jimmy Carter The Playboy Interview - Excerpt
November 1976
"Because I'm just human and I'm tempted and Christ set some almost impossible standards for us. The Bible says, "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Christ said, I tell you that anyone who looks on a woman with lust has in his heart already committed adultery. I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times.... This is something that God recognizes, that I will do and have done, and God forgives me for it. But that doesn't mean that I condemn someone who not only looks on a woman with lust but who leaves his wife and shacks up with somebody out of wedlock. Christ says, don't consider yourself better than someone else because one guy screws a whole bunch of women while the other guy is loyal to his wife. The guy who's loyal to his wife ought not to be condescending or proud because of the relative degree of sinfulness."This is the real McCoy folks. Look it up. -
Now THAT'S a stand up guy.
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First of all - Israel hasn't been in Gaza for a couple of years now.
Second - I don't get your point. Jimmy Carter wrote a book. It's in all the stores. Mirsheimer & Walt wrote a book. It's in stores. Jonathan Demme made a movie defending Jimmy Carter's right to write it. They have a right to write these books and make these films... and people who disagree with their assertions, have a right to criticize them.
What's the problem? Take a stand and somebody will always stand against you.
People talk about freedom of speech, but what they really want is freedom to make their case without being challenged. -
Jonathan Demme should make a doc about that. I'd probably watch it.
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Kevin Federline does. Seriously, even I could have made a better president than that asshole. And I get drunk at least four nights a week.
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Goatse, eat your "heart" out! Ha!
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Fucking hardly! But Alan Dershowitz does love himself some tasty rice queens. Did you know there's a kosher Chinese restaurant called Cho-Sen? I shit you not.
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You're the guy who wrote, "I don't know if you heard, but President Carter is working on a new book about the educational crisis in the African-American community. It'll be called 'Why Nig**rs Are So Dumb,'" aren't you? Way to "stand up" for what you believe. I think, though, that Happy Boy and I both will defend to the death your right to be an asshole! LOL!
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I doubt you'd be half the President that Kevin Federline could be, even without the drinking problem.
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I'm pretty sure this will be the only time we are in 100% agreement but I too, did a double take when I read Mori's thoughts on Philadelphia. Really, Drew? Crass Oscar-bait? I was 10 years old or something when it came out so I have no idea what its release represented at the time, etc. but I still tear up everytime I see it on TNT or wherever and you've gotta admit that Hanks gives a tour-de-force. The way Denzel's character comes around might be a little obvious but he gives a great performance too. Same for Antonio Banderas. I urge you to reconsider.
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Philadelphia is mediocre Oscar bait. And Hanks is way overrated.
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as a former comedian and a Stewart-esque everyman, but as an actor he's nothing special. He's got star quality, sure, but he's no master thespian (any more than Gwyneth Paltrow is).
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back to the Promised Land after I fuck him in the ass with a corkscrew while his parents watch and join in.
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Get your facts straight. Carter supports the Palestinians and their "plight". In other words, he supports terrorism. Do you see any Israelis blowing themselves up? I think not! Do you see Israel firing rockets into Palestinian territories to kill innocent civilians? No fucking way. Carter supports a "nation" that believes in the concept "Death to America". ISRAEL IS A SOVEREIGN NATION AND HAS THE RIGHT TO DEFEND ITSELF. PERIOD. The only fucking democracy in the middle east. And I'm not even Jewish. So think about what Carter represents when you spend money on this movie. Carter can go scratch his ass for all I care. And he was the second worst president in history - second only to the asshole currently occupying the Oval Orifice.
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Irony, thy name is Ferf. Ironically, irony's name is not ironic_name.
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or was that an April Fool? And with a name like Muckmeyer I'm thinking you must be Guatemalan.
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I dont want to this to turn into a Jew versus non-Jew thing obviously all sides in the conflict are at fault. But cmon dude, really? Terrorism is a political tactic... probably the most famous terrorist act ever was the bombing of the King David hotel in 1946 by Zionists led by Menachem Begin who later became prime minister of israel. It was directed at British citizens 91 people were murdered and 45 more were injured. I believe it's still the largest single act of terrorism in Israel. NOT DEFENDING ARABS... they bombed us 9/11 and we still need payback... but you're a jackass if you actually hold those hypocritical views TERRORISM is a political tactic, many nations include those we support have used it and will continue to use it to farther their interests
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I don't think I've ever read a dumber statement... ever. You just called Tom Hanks nothing special and compared him to Gwyneth Paltrow. That's gotta be libel or something.
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This has nothing to do with Judaism. It's an issue of nationalism and racism. The majority of American Jews don't support the actions being taken against Palestinians. That's not to say they don't support Israel as a nation, but they are critical of that nation's actions. Just like not all Palestinians agree with Hamas, hence the constant infighting within their own ranks.
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Only they are in Paraguay and for his servants to live close to his Bush super-compound.
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The hottest club in Tel Aviv!
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Another attack on the documentary art form as revisionist propaganda. If only Carter had died after getting Sadat and Begin together or stuck to building houses, the world would be a much better place. And the Egypt/Israeli peace happened more from repeated humiliating Egyptian defeats than Carter. He had a major hand in advancing 3 of the most dangerous rogue nations who have declared themselves sworn enemies of his own country. Not only was he a terrible and flaccid President, but permitted the endless national embarrassment of the Hostage Crisis. His policies helped bring the nuclear Ayatollahs to power in Iran who threaten the whole region and export terrorism everywhere. He lobbied hard on behalf of Kim Mentally Ill, the biggest surviving mass murderer in the world, for getting him respectability and funds to build a reactor that led to his nuclear program. He supervised and gave his imprimatur to the suspicious election of Communist dictator Hugo Chavez in oil rich Venezuela. And if that wasn't enough, he pushed hard for Israel to give endless concessions to Palestinian murderers of women and children. In short, he never met a tin-horn Communist or murdering terrorist he didn't like. He is hailed around the world and given 'peace' prizes precisely because of his intense anti-American stances and endless work undermining our foreign policy and political stability everywhere. To me, he's a minor monster who betrayed his countrymen for personal aggrandisement. If someday one of our cities and millions of prople are vaporized by a nuke, you can probably thank in part Jimmie's efforts. I think I'll pass on his propaganda puff piece, no matter how well it's made.
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"Read my .."
"ANTI-SEMITE!!!" -
How's the weather in the Promised Land?
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Looks like a good movie for the times. And hek, Demme made it, so why not? I'm not democrat (I swear) but Carter at least has the balls to speak out against the war and media machines. His stance on Palestine is not one everyone agrees on, but he did a lot to attain peace in the middle east as president, and brings up important points that he wants us to discuss sanely.
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But they treat the peanut farmer like he's Ramses and Hitler's love child. Jeebus. Get a hold of yourselves.
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If that's the dumbest statement you've ever read, I can only guess you don't read TB often... Nice hyperbole, dipshit.
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He was the engineer on the nuke sub. I need more power Jimmah!!
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Yeah, not only do I believe every word I wrote, if you were smart enough to do the research you'd know exactly what the Palestinian agenda was - KILL JEWS. DRIVE THEM INTO THE SEA. They teach it in schools to first graders, you assholes! Now they teach DEATH TO AMERICA. And how do I KNOW this? I've seen the fucking textbooks! Do I think Israel is perfect in all of this? Hell no! But I know people that live in Israel, and every fucking day Hamas is firing missiles across the frontier. So say what you want about terrorism being political or whatever. You are a jackass if you believe otherwise.
BTW, hats off to Roboteer. HE knows what he's talking about. -
Most 80 year olds I know- Think they know whats good for this country and how things should be done, and they want too make sure you know that. Even more so around election time...
I find it's very funny that those of us who are nearly in grave- can become so unraveled and concerned with our government, the economy and politics. Your ass is gonna die soon!!!! Enjoy your whats left of it goddamn it!
The Old and Wise is a bullshit term, your only as wise as too what subject to continued to study. Age doesn't factor time with that subject does... there are just as many smart young people for every dumb old one.
Think about it this way. He had the worlds most important job. Now thats gone. Imagine if he thought this way when he was in power. You see... Thats just it! They guys use it till they lose it. Damn how did i let this site trick me into a political discussion. -
in Jimmy's scalp. And how he was the real director of the Prequel Trilogy.
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Does your health insurance cover bugnutosis?
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Any giant robots in the film?
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in that new movie. Man she is gonna grow into one fine ass woman.
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in that new movie. Man she is gonna grow into one fine ass woman.
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Oliver is going to serve up some Bush
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Some believe Carter prolonged the hostage crisis because it helped him beat Ted Kennedy in the primaries. The crisis made the president seem more presidential..
Read up on it... This guy had trouble wiping his own ass. Worst President ever.. -
i remember that class. 7th grade right after wood shop. my textbook was a used copy. had a bunch of pink floyd logos and skull bongs drawn in the margins.
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funny, I heard the republicans drew it out to benefit reagan
"The October Surprise theory itself refers to a purported deal between high-level Reagan campaign operatives (such as campaign manager and future CIA Director William J. Casey) and representatives of the Iranian government to delay the release of the hostages until after the November 1980 U.S. elections." -
Apr 01, 2008 11:29:44 PM CDT
of course it was just a coincidence that minutes after Reagan
by irrelevntelefant
was sworn into office,the hostages were released
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to prolong the hostage crisis so Reagan would win. That's why they were released upon his inauguration. But let's not let facts get in the way of crucifying the elderly peanut farmer.
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Where in 2 years 4600 rockets have been fired into Israel. I guess you all have had a head explode in front of you from sniper rifle from Calqilya. I have seen children ripped apart from bombs and Israel is the enemy? Let me ask you when is death of children and civilians OK. Americans have to realize if you say something unpopular you must face public opinion. Let see Jimmy live right by Gaza and when his decapiated child dies in his arms, let us see him blame Israel for his death. But hey he is a man from the plains that is attack by bunnies.
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carter was the worst president ever*
*of all presidents prior to 2000 and after 2008 -
... if it goes into why Carter hates Jews?
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Bush will be in office until January 2009.
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theory is if they had an agreement to delay releasing the hostages so that Reagan could get elected. Why not release them the day after the election?? Or just to be sure the day after the electoral college officially elected him???
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Apr 01, 2008 11:41:45 PM CDT
AND WHAT IS IT ISRAEL IS FIRING INTO THE REFUGEE CAMPS?
by bringingsexyback
Nerf missles? Water bombs? If only!
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yeah, but i'm going to cut him some slack and guess he won't fuck too much up. he'll be on vacation 18 of those 20 days in January anyway
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is how the Republicans can use those Americans as pawns to gain political power. Oh right. Look who we're talking about.
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quoting "The exact nature of the allegations lies in a potential violation of the International Commerce Acts of 1798, which prohibit any private citizen or party from negotiating with a foreign power in matters of national policy or military action. It is alleged by political opponents that the Reagan campaign, or one of Reagan's election campaign staffers, communicated with the Iranian government and asked them to extend the hostage crisis long enough to ensure that he won the 1980 elections. The main cause for suspicion was the seeming coincidence of his inauguration and the hostages' release six minutes after Reagan was sworn into office on January 20, 1981, as well as the Reagan administration's later decision to provide arms to the anti-U.S. Iranian government, allegedly in return not for freeing the hostages, but for delaying their release.However, special ops personnel involved in the preparations for the second rescue attempt believed that incoming President Ronald Reagan was involved in the planning and timing of the second rescue attempt, and that these intentions were either implied or made known to the de facto Iranian government, leading to the hostages' release just minutes after Reagan's inauguration. This was reinforced by the fact that the personnel involved were on alert status, ready to go at a moment's notice, in the days leading up to the inauguration, and that the required equipment was already packed up and waiting to be shipped. Thus, a perceived and possibly communicated threat of invasion could also have influenced the timing of the hostage release.
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Dick Cheney is the worst president we ever had
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hehe
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I was aware of most of what your talking about. But, I still think if they had a deal they wouldn't have waited as long as they did to release them. Although an alternate explaination could be that the kidnappers, unaware of our electoral process, thought the inaugeration was the election. But them again I'm no expert on partical physics either.
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Starring Barbara Bush as Dick.
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Your loyalty to the Likud Party is admirable. To traitors.
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Your loyalty to the Likud Party is admirable. To traitors.
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I'm sure that's what he said when he found out his daughter was a lesbian.
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Also PHILADELPHIA is a great fucking movie. What are you smoking? You also don't love SILENCE OF THE LAMBS? Love ya, Moriarty, but ugh. Those are great movies.
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Overrated: Reagan
Underrated: Eisenhower -
... I like SILENCE OF THE LAMBS just fine. I don't think it's THE GREATEST FILM EVER MADE, though, and I think the insane hype around it was a big part of what happened to Demme's career. He chased that success for a few years, then finally realized it was a fluke and got back to being the oddball idiosyncratic filmmaker he used to be.
PHILADELPHIA, though... oy. I'll bet you guys are reeeeeeal big Stanley Kramer fans, too, eh? -
nothing in the least.
Sure, Silence of the Lambs is not the greatest film ever made Mori, but we know who Demme is because of it. Without it we probably wouldn't even know about his subsequent films. And its a damn splendid thriller as well... if not THE definitive psychological thriller. -
hows the PS3 saga coming along? Anything to report?
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Maybe tomorrow. We'll see. I certainly haven't received the much-ballyhooed "special treatment" people accused me of begging for in the last talkback. I'm just going through the process, and we'll see what the end result is soon, I hope.
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(Although not so much It's a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World...) The man directed Guess Who's Coming to Dinner and produced both The Caine Mutiny and High Noon. Kinda hard to dislike the guy...
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I don't think it's the greatest film ever made (by any stretch of the imagination), but I do consider it a minor masterpiece.
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Any movie that has someone tell Jodie Foster "I can smell your va-jay-jay" is an INSTANT classic.
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as an actor? I know the man has loads of star quality--much as Jimmy Stewart did. But I want to know this: do you think he is as good as the academy (supposedly) thinks he is? Do you think, for instance, that he is in the same league as Dustin Hoffman (or Phillip Seymour Hoffman for that matter)?Earlier in the thread, MiraJeff asserted the following: "I don't think I've ever read a dumber statement... ever. You just called Tom Hanks nothing special and compared him to Gwyneth Paltrow. That's gotta be libel or something."For the record, I asserted that Hanks is nothing special AS AN ACTOR. And, yeah, the Paltrow analogy applies because they both received academy awards for performances that were inferior to the others nominated (i.e., for their SHAKESPEARE IN LOVE and FORREST GUMP roles).To me, Hanks is just ok as an actor. And obviously overrated. What do you think?
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Apr 02, 2008 7:35:04 AM CDT
Tom Hanks' Best Work was Bachelor Party...followed by Toy Story
by alice cooper stalker
I'll stand up and say that I haven't been particularly impressed by anything that Tom Hanks has done. He's one of those actors that is marketed to the masses and I don't get. I have identical feelings for Julia Roberts. I don't think she's that great of an actress. She plays the same character....same traits...in everymovie she plays. My 2cents for the day.
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had me going there for a sec
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"not only do I believe every word I wrote, if you were smart enough to do the research you'd know exactly what the Palestinian agenda was - KILL JEWS. DRIVE THEM INTO THE SEA." wow, eat many paint chips as a child? Only an egocentonic asshole can see genocide, and call it self-defense. You know what the "Palestinian Agenda" really is? "Try to survive another day"
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is that almost nobody here is old enough to have voted for or against Carter, and thus, their only opinion of him is whatever the media wants them to have.
Carter was a horribly bad president. Absolutely and undeniably horrible. The problem is that Democrats dont have their own Ronald Reagan. They cant prop up any previous presidents for us and make us pine for those great days. The only thing they have is Kennedy, and his very short presidency ended abruptly in the sixties. Since then, we've not had an iconic Democratic President - so out of neccessity, Jimmy Carter is being re-invented as a great and noble Statesman when the truth is, he was one of the 5 worst Presidents in the history of this nation. I'll let you all squabble over whether Bush is worse than Carter, but NOBODY here can deny that Carter is indeed among the worst 5 Presidents. -
Why, I'd be spouting out the way to curb the energy crisis is to wear sweaters!
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Settling on land in the pre- or post- 1967 lines? Hamas wants the Jes out of all of the area.
BTW, if the "October Surprise" theory is correct, that makes Carter look even more inept. Possibly the most powerful man in the world with all the resources of the CIA and FBI behind him couldn't discover what William Casey was up to? -
by the Tri-lateral Commission. He also got a lot of Delta Force soldiers killed by running the Iranian rescue mission from the effing White House. And he blessed the Venezuelan election of Hugeblow Chavez when there was rampant violation of election procedures. The guy should stay the hell out of politics and stick to building houses.
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And here comes Morbid to debunk the conspiracies! Misfit! Debunk away!
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Apr 02, 2008 11:00:59 AM CDT
I DIDN'T REALIZE THERE WAS SO MUCH BLOOD TO SQUEEZE
by bringingsexyback
from that stone. Good job, petulent one.
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Just because it bears repeating:As a kid, I remember this interview.Jimmy Carter The Playboy Interview - Excerpt
November 1976
"Because I'm just human and I'm tempted and Christ set some almost impossible standards for us. The Bible says, 'Thou shalt not commit adultery.' Christ said, I tell you that anyone who looks on a woman with lust has in his heart already committed adultery. I've looked on a lot of women with lust. I've committed adultery in my heart many times.... This is something that God recognizes, that I will do and have done, and God forgives me for it. But that doesn't mean that I condemn someone who not only looks on a woman with lust but who leaves his wife and shacks up with somebody out of wedlock. Christ says, don't consider yourself better than someone else because one guy screws a whole bunch of women while the other guy is loyal to his wife. The guy who's loyal to his wife ought not to be condescending or proud because of the relative degree of sinfulness."
This is the real McCoy folks. Look it up.Now here's a guy that admits up front to cheating on his wife "in [his] heart." Wow. I've always wondered what Rosalynn thought about this. MY wife would absolutely behave as if I had cheated on her if I admitted that I had thought about it (i.e., I'd be a dead man). Er... uh, not that I HAVE thought about it... My point is this: sometimes it's better to lie (or at least keep intimate details of our own minds to ourselves). That stated: Jimmy, you're (hypothetically) a more honest man than me.
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I don't remember Christ saying, "don't consider yourself better than someone else because one guy screws a whole bunch of women while the other guy is loyal to his wife." That's quite a paraphrase of "Judge not lest ye be judged." Though I guess in theory it works... Imagine that: a Christian who actually tries to do what Christ said (or intended) for people to do.
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Apr 02, 2008 11:41:44 AM CDT
because the Dept of Energy and Dept of Education work great
by arcadiands
yeah thanks for creating two of the biggest sinkholes in which to pour my taxes.
And I'm not a conservative - nice try. -
Apr 02, 2008 11:46:25 AM CDT
Node - the critical question is: Whose homeland is it?
by toadkillerdog
One that has not been resolved, in thousands of years (though if you go by strictly Biblical and historical data -it is the land of the Jews). I do not fault Palestinains or any peoples for that matter, in wanting a homeland of their own. I do not fault Palestinans or any peoples for feeling they have been robbed of the homeland of their forefathers. But, there comes a time when reality must trump a passionate yearning. Israel exists. Israel has a right to exist. Israel will always exist. The senseless and seemingly never ending violence aimed towards it and her peoples, by the radical Palestinians and their ilk, will never succeed in anything but hardening positions against them. I understand violence that is generationally passed on, but at some point, sane individuals must say that it is enough. Until then, Israel has every right to defend herself and her peoples. I do not always agree with her methods, but will always support her right to do so.
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I'm not gonna say Carter was a great or even good president (although a good bit of his ineffectiveness was due to issues and forces beyond his control), but watch some clips of Jimmy Carter speaking sometime, and then watch George W. Bush. The contrast between a folksy-sounding but compassionate and intelligent man and a true imbecile like W is stark and depressing and if doesn't make you even angrier about the miscarriage that has been the last seven years, I've got nothing for ya. Sorry.
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Fifty Years of Math 1957 - 2007 (in the USA).....
Because of the evolution in teaching math since the 1950s:.....
1. Teaching Math In 1950s.....
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price. What is his profit?.....
2. Teaching Math In 1960s.....
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is 4/5 of the price, or $80. What is his profit?.....
3. Teaching Math In 1970s.....
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80. Did he make a profit?.....
4. Teaching Math In 1980s.....
A logger sells a truckload of lumber for $100. His cost of production is $80 and his profit is $20. Your assignment: Underline the number 20......
5. Teaching Math In 1990s.....
A logger cuts down a beautiful forest because he is selfish and inconsiderate and cares nothing for the habitat of animals or the preservation of our woodlands. He does this so he can make a profit of $20. What do you think of this way of making a living? Topic for class participation after answering the question: How did the birds and squirrels feel as the logger cut down their homes? (There are no wrong answers, and if you feel like crying, it's ok. ).....
6. Teaching Math In 2007.....
Un hachero vende una carretada de maderapara $100. El costo de la producciones es $80. Cuanto dinero ha hecho?
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You're absolutely, positively dead on right. While Carter was not the best (historian's seem to put him in the 25-50%, not the bottom 10%, compared to other presidents--see wikipedia for source), W is arguably THE very worst we've ever had and will certainly go down in history as one of the least intellectually curious of our leaders. No matter who wins next fall's election, the next administration will be a lot better than this one. The Bush admin has singlehandedly fucked the way the world views America, and I'll never forgive them for that.
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The Palestinians to Miami, and just make one big Promised Land Theme Park for all faiths to share. So let it be written!
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We can debate the British culpability before and during WWI and WWII in creating the mess that exists today, but that does nothing to address the situation as it exists now. And because of that, yes the radical Palestinians, and Islamic radicals that want to destoy Isreal, deserve the lion share of the blame for not being able to recognize that Israel does and will forever exist. I know it is not an easy thing to renounce hatred and violence that you have been literally born and raised with, but it is possible. Northern Ireland is an example of such. it can be done, but the will must exist, and I blame the will of the Palestinians for not recognizing this fact.
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He seems like the kinda guy I can have a beer and clear brush with. He's good people.
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You just shot your own argument down dude. Oh, and by the way, WHOT THE FUCK CARES HOW THE REST OF THE WORLD SEES US? Are you really that feeble-minded not to know the rest of the world will ALWAYS view us with contempt and jealousy? "Oh please, please, please, let France love us!!!!" Well guess what loser? I don't give a fuck! Until your utopian one-world-government takes power, I could care less about what the leftists and radicals of the world want to chant about. They will be the first ones begging for our support when the next earthquake topples their capital or if another Hitler or Stalin tries to impose a totalitarian rule over them. Shut the fuck up, or do something about it! Oh, and P.S., if you actually try to ‘do something about it', I will be out there waiting to shoot you down like a dog in the street.
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refers to radical anarchists and the like. If you want to protest or run for office, fine. I won't shoot. I promise.
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Apr 02, 2008 12:20:51 PM CDT
WE SHOULD SEND THAT BUSTED TEE CHICK TO HOLD PEACE TALKS
by bringingsexyback
With that luscious rack at the table, the Israelis and Palestinians will be so distracted they'll sign any peace agreement put in front of them. So let it be done!
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...it's just that some of you pseudo-communists really piss me off.
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I've got the Rambo III add, and not the busted tee chick. I have hit refresh, like 18 times!!!!! Ahhhh!
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written like a true disciple of Rush Limbaugh. Just keep repeating those absurd, radical right-wing lies, and more shitbags like you will believe they are true. Well done, dittohead. Give greetings to your masters for me (via phone to your fav talk-radio show) .
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It's for the most part accurate although one should find corroborating sources. And the world is not filled with just Leftists, Bill. There are lots of Right-wingers around. I kinda view China as a far Right country willing to trample on the Lefty Tibetans without hesitating. That's no Commie country. That's pure Fascism.
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would be captured by Iranian funded 'political groups' on the ground in Gaza or the West Bank and shipped to Iran. There she would be found guilty by a bunch of Imams in a kangaroo court and sentenced to death: Whereby they would dig a hole several minutes after the verdict was read and bury her to her neck. Then, children and adult men would hurl baseball-sized chunks of rock and concrete at her until she were dead.
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Apr 02, 2008 12:26:05 PM CDT
BILL - I'M WAITING FOR THE CHICK WITH THE OPEN CROTCHSHOT
by bringingsexyback
It's why I come to AICN. That and Jimmy Carter Talkbacks.
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Ok, Brasky--let me guess. You're... what? Fifteen years old?
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You fucking loser. I don't listen to Limbaugh, or any of those losers. If you had ever read my posts before, you would know that. But, unlike the true (left of center) gentleman, BringingSexyBack, you jump to the same conclusions that everyone in the 'I hate America' crowd jumps to...."Ditto head!!!" Wake up you tool, you don't know me. You only think you do.
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Toby Keith record collection...
No dude, I am 13, not 15 and I have a 12" cock. Dude, that has to be the worst response to any post ever. Just excuse yourself. -
You ARE sensitive, aren't you? You amuse me, Brasky! You'll grow up to be a funny funny (if a bit loony) man someday. So long, "loser." LOL!
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Seriously, he's not an extremist. He and I had some invaluable political discussions before here. Talk to the guy - he's nothing like Cygnus. Just remember that politics tend to rile people up, that's its nature. But eventually reasonable people find some common ground.
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Those ads are serious cockteases.
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BSB, see, you make a great point! I rant sometimes, because of my pure and (sometimes) misguided patriotism, but I can see your points and even agree with you. I will say that many of the groups that protest around the world, like at G8 summits, are funded from and run by leftist organizations, including but not limited to 'Federation of Green Parties of the Americas,' 'Democratic Party of the Peoples of Europe' and the 'Internationalist Perspective,' the latter being chief among groups financing Anarchists at recent G8 summits. I mean, if you can theorize all day about how evil Bush and the Neocons are, why can't you admit that there is an equally dangerous, if opposite, Leftist threat that exists in the world? Then, tie it all together and understand the how and why on KFC's new name change to Kentucky Grilled Chicken....
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that had me going then! I didn't call Brasky a right wing extremist until he assumed I was a "leftist and radical" (as if right wingers can't be radical too). Incidentally, I'm no "radical," though I'm more left than I am right politically. You don't have to be a radical to hate what the Bush administration has done to our country's reputation here and abroad. And, btw, the "I don't give a shit what the rest of the world thinks about America" is purely a far-right talking point. It does matter what the rest of the world thinks of us (and when we torture people--terrorists or otherwise--we lose credibility). I happen to love my country, but just because you love something doesn't mean you can't criticize or attempt to fix it.But I'm willing to start over. If as you state, BSB, Bill Brasky is not an extremist, I'm willing to have a sane political discussion starting now.
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"I looked into his soul...and saw that he is a good man..."
He is also a fucking Czar reincarnated.
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The left wing can be as far out as the right. IMO, though, we're in a cycle in which the right has done far more damage of late than the right. It is time for an adjustment.
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The man has been creating his own private shadow government for years... As with much else, Bush was incorrect in his assessment of Putin's character.
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Damn you Fishus...trying to make nicey! OK, OK, that's cool. I honestly don't really care for European, or Asian political thought. I mean, my parents are Italian, my Father actually born and raised there. There must be some reason why people are still streaming over here in waves. The last time I checked, Great Britain and France had both had population declinations over the last decade.
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but at least he didn't try to unwrite the Constitution.
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Believe it or not, I get irritated when the USA gets grief from the likes of that pretentious hypocrite, Jacques Chirac. I'm less concerned about what foreign political leaders think of us and more concerned at what the common foreign individual thinks about us. Of course, immigration to the US does continue... We have had a reputation in the past that has inspired a large population all over the world, and I feel that that reputation has been put in jeopardy by the actions of the current administration. Considering the outpouring of support in the wake of 9/11, it's sad that things didn't go differently for us...
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And I think that was one of the points we talked about some weeks ago. At that point I told Bill about how I've strayed from Progressivism to the Center-Left. Anyway, what I find disturbing about Russia is the crackdown, violently, on dissent. Witness the assassination of that journalist in London, and with radioactive poisoning too. Fucking nuts.
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Hey mullymt, wouldn't "unwrite" be considered a 'Bushism?' Kind of like "straitegerize?"
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Carter sucked as a leader. Ultimately I think he was a failure literally because his leadership skills were so poor. Do I believe he's ultimately a good human being--yes. But, as we know, sometimes the more charismatic leaders don't happen to be the kind of people you'd personally want anything to do with.
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over the past few years, I'd HATE to be living in Russia right now. "I have a bad feeling about this" indeed. Putin has apparentl found a back door to totalitarianism.
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thank God for us both...the left and right, as in a year, the left can calm down, and the right can stop defending the guy. I know that this doesn't make much sense, but I have to roll, and I just wanted to get that statement out.
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I love you. That's all. I just love you.
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the same result. Totalitarianism. It's true.
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All extremist followers of Islam are right wing. Guess who's interested in what people are doing in the privacy of their home? What they wear? Who they worship? Yep--that's right. The EXTREME right. And there's a point where extreme right and left meet, which is why it's so difficult to differentiate the two sometimes and why Orwell's 1984 can apply to both sides of the political spectrum so easily. It's not as black and white as you think, BraneRobot.
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You're being strident, closed-minded and self-righteous, man. Chill.
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Sorry to leave you with Brane but I gotta go too. Busted Tee 4ever!
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This is one weird way to spend a day off... Good TBing it up...
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you're equating all things right wing as noble--individual rights and fair play. And that's true hypothetically. Just as the left wing ideals are for collective harmony and tolerance. Either one of these ideals often fails in the real world when taken to extremes. And, yeah, the horrors of hard-line religion is distinctly the property of the right just as the horrors of communism are the property of the extreme left. The results are the same--the suffering of the individual. People are corruptible whatever ideology they choose to push. If you don;t believe that, you need to do some more research on the history of the world.And you being closed-minded has absolutely nothing to do with me. Can't you see that you're convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that you're absolutely right about everything you're writing? You're lashing out at this "leftist" phantom that's not even there. Man, I think that's sad. I'm willing to concede I'm wrong sometimes--hell even a lot of times. But you seem so absolutely convinced of your political beliefs that you come off as some kind of venom spitting ogre. You're better than that, man.
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Also known as Thunderballs. Google "AnimalStructure" and/or "Thunderballs" and "aintitcool" if you want to read some hair-raising stuff, like how he supports genocide against Muslims, that there is not "and has never been" such a thing as a right-wing dictatorship and that Milosevic "got a bad rap".
He's one of the few truly evil talkbackers we have here - an absolute monster. -
The government of Nazi Germany was a fascist, totalitarian state. Totalitarian regimes, in contrast to a dictatorship, establish complete political, social, and cultural control over their subjects, and are usually headed by a charismatic leader. Fascism is a form of right-wing totalitarianism which emphasizes the subordination of the individual to advance the interests of the state. I did not write that paragraph, it comes from this link
:http://www.remember.org/guide/Facts.root.nazi.html
Dude, Nazism is one of the most extreme versions of far right, ultra-conservatism that has ever existed. If you are going to argue against the far left or far right, you had beter get your facts straight. -
your tone did that for you.And, as for hard line religion being a right wing tool--look around you. In practice, right wing does not equal libertarian.
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has evolved over time. BR is cherry-picking in his definition of what the right wing is about and completely blasting the worst potential qualities of the left.
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Just because the word socialist existed in the National Social Party, does not make them socialists, and in fact Hitler had either kicked out, jailed or killed all socialists within the party by 1933. The Nazis were one of the most extreme CONSERVATIVE movements of all time. Racial purity. Militant and martial objectives. Near religious worship of one man and one cause (Reaganism anyone?)I could go on. There is a movement afoot by the radical right that is trying to re-brand nazism as a leftist movement. You are obviously a disciple.
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And that is insulting. I could care less what branch of the political tree a nutjob like Hitler and his followers sprouted from, but I do care when revisionists attempt to change history.
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Hitler was not a STRICT vegetarian!He played with the idea because he admired Richard Wagner.It was Goebbels plan to tell the German people that Hitler is a vegetarian,drinks no Alcohol,does not have sex and so on.The Nazis wanted the public to perceive Hitler as an "Übermensch"(Superhuman).The truth is that Hitler,like his goons to,"enjoyed" his life as much as he could.Most of the Nazi-Regime leaders were heavy smokers,drinkers and fucked anybody they could get their hands on(some of them even boys).Most of your "points" BraneRobot/AnimalStructure are Neo-Fascist propaganda bullshit,that you can find on every Neo-Nazi bullshit website around the world.Since I live in Germany,I hear that BS you write to often.The Nazis did nothing good!Nothing they did can excuse what they did to Mankind.So,stop posting your Neo-Fascist propaganda around here.
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...in all their forms, including Nazis, abhorred true socialism as it (at least in theory) was open to all people of the world. Fascists' adherence to the idea of guaranteed jobs and free health care was extended only to a select group or groups, in most cases a "people" or race. Subjugating all other people while doing so was seen as not only necessary but desirable as well.
When it comes to class structure, fascists are very much right wing. They actively oppose class struggle and consider all levels of class society to serve an overriding purpose, namely the support of the people/race/nation. Big business and fascist governments loved each other. In return for the governments' suppression of trade unions, socialists and liberals, big businesses dealt almost solely with their governments as clients/customers. Fascist governments kept workers in their place and big business kept supplying the governments with the means of waging expansionist wars and supplying the "people" with material goods.
Fascists proclaimed being neither left nor right, as many populist movements do to gain widespread support and did have many members come in from the extreme left, but in practice they were "socialist" merely in terms of giving the chosen "volk" advantages at the expense of others and decidedly ultra-conservative in terms of their view of class and economy.
The problem with assholes like BraneRobot is that they can't fit into their heads that there are extreme versions of politics on their end of the spectrum. BraneRobot wants to label every form of totalitarianism as "leftist" so that he, the "true" conservative, can commit and/or support any kind of outrage imaginable with the easy excuse of "no, only leftists can be genocidal."
Like I said, he is truly an evil fucking maniac, a monster of colossal proportions and infamous on these boards for his crypto-fascist rants. -
Contemporary progressives (or liberals) usually embrace freedom of choice in personal matters, but tend to support significant government control of the economy. They generally support a government-funded "safety net" to help the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation of business. Progressives tend to favor environmental regulations, defend civil liberties and free expression, support government action to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyles.Let's see--BR's Nazi party analogy point by point:1. "Progressives usually embrace freedom of choice in personal matters." Nobody would argue that the Nazis embraced "freedom of choice in personal matters." The Jews and gay folks, among two of many affected groups, would attest to that,2. Governmental control of the economy. That's a check with the Nazis for sure. The Nazi party definitely did have a tight hold on the economy. The Neocons also seem to be advocating this kind of economic control of late. 3. Welfare for the disadvantaged? Well, I guess in Nazi Germany if you looked the right way, talked with the right accent, had the right culture and hung out with the right people (oh, and obviously didn't SAY the wrong things) this might be a fit--you might just be a welfare beneficiary (thanks to your Jewish neighbors wealth that they won't be needing anymore)! This just doesn't hold water. The hard right is all about keeping the minorities and weirdos in line (and, in extreme, getting rid of them altogether).4. Strict regulation of business. That's a check with the Nazis, though neoconservatives are obviously a lot more willing to get involved with business than their more traditional brethren.5. Environmental regulations? Hah! That's a good one. The Nazis were real kind to the environment during their political tenure. Not to mention the fact that this was kind of a non-issue back then.6. Defending civil liberties and freedom of expression? Oh, yeah. The Nazis RULED at that. Of course, millions upon millions would disagree (if they had lived to disagree).7. Support government action to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyle? HAHAHAHAHA!! Oh, yeah. Those Nazis were SUCH fucking bleeding heart liberals!Bottom line: the only leg your argument has to stand on has to do with governmental regulation of the economy and business. Personally, I don't like government being overly involved in the economy (apparently unlike our friends in the White House). HOWEVER, the right wing in our country DOES INDEED own a backwards, traditionalist and intolerant foundation when it comes to an individual's right to freedom and personal happiness, and it the contemporary right wing is the party supported by (and enabled by) extreme religious ideology. Ask just about any Republican in office what they think of atheists, gay rights or anti-discrimination laws. BR, If you're such a believer in individual freedom, do you believe the government shouldn't discriminate against minorities or deny them freedoms the government grants to others? Bear in mind that the Nazis not only exterminated Jews, but also folks that didn't conform to traditional, "Aryan" looks, ideals, and lifestyles. And THAT, my friend, is where the most extreme right wing thought leads. Don't get me wrong. The most extreme left wing thought also leads to a similar place (lest we forget the lesson of the USSR or China). My point is these are ideologies--left or right--that are used by really evil shits to get into power. Once they attain it absolutely, then the carnage begins.
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Before any of you decide to take anything he says about genocide seriously, consider what he said about the massacre in Srebrenica:
"If you want to make an omelette you have to break a few eggs."
What a guy. -
I have no blinkers on, I am not blinded by the facts and the truth - which are separate things. Let me elucidate. Fact: the word 'socialist' is in the name of the Nazi party. Truth: Hitler was a right wing extremist who only cared for the purity and sancity of the Aryan race. No other races need apply. Does that in ANY way sound like the far left wing - which is inclusive of everyone under one tent; group think? No, it does not, because it is not. Communism, and Utopianism, those are the extremist left political movements. Stupid as they are, and you will get no defense of them from me. But you had better research your history and not just regurgitate far-right wing revisionist propoganda before you spout off at me. You had better research it very well. A friendly warning.
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Apparently I'm supposed to think Carter was a lamoid, and then get on my knees to suck zombie Reagan's cock. Considering what Reagan pulled with those hostages, I'm surprised so many Americans are willing to take elephant cock up their asses anymore. The senile fucker was in a scandal before he even had taken office.
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Excellent. Concise and dead on commentary. No one is defending the far left here. The far right, however, has a few champions at aintitcool.com. Oh, Jimmy! You really rile 'em up, son!
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...and the Nazis accepted former communists into their ranks quicker than former liberals, conservatives or socialists, not because they were on the same side of the political spectrum, but because the further out to the left and to the right you go, the closer you become to each other in terms of how you "solve" society's "ills". Communists, having been indoctrinated in totalitarian thought and belief in subjugating yourself to a monolithic state/apparatus, were easier to "convert" than the others.
You really have to be warped beyond all help if you can't differentiate between left and right wing extremism. It's no coincidence that the idiots spouting this shit are Americans. Their sense of the left-right scale is often so fucked up that right-wingers will call liberals "communists" while left-wingers will call conservatives "fascists". Nuance and historical perspective isn't exactly a strong point with these people. -
You are absolutely correct about the right-wing apologists on this site. I do no care what anyone's party affiliation is, but I can not tolerate extremism in any form from any part of the political spectrum. It leads to dangerous and inflexible ideas and consequences.
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...aka Thunderballs aka AnimalStructure, you're doing all my work for me. It's enough to scratch the surface a bit and off you go, ranting and screeching, treating us to your sad, demented take on the world.
By the way, those "anti-American Muslim" Kosovars you mentioned, would those be the same ones who flew at least as many American as Albanian flags during virtually every newscast from the region in connection with their recent secession from Serbia?
You pathetic, stupid motherfucker. -
I'm with you on most of what you're saying, but I take offense at the general American bashing in your last post. Sure, there are American, right wing extremists out there, but they are far from alone in the world. Some of the best, most even minded political thinkers are ALSO American. Let's not reduce this to an America against the world argument.
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There is something these days known as "Third Positionism", which is a political orientation where the extreme left and the extreme right more or less find common ground. Why? Because they have reached the conclusion that Western-style, liberal, market-driven democracy is the one common enemy that must be defeated if either is to have a chance at success. They will give credit to ANY and ALL ideologies which oppose the latter. This is why you'll hear David Duke express admiration for radical Islamist methods, and how the KKK and Nation of Islam actually can share a stage together. It is also why you'll sometimes see far left extremists downplay right-wing dictatorships' crimes as being minute compared to the crimes of liberal democracy as well as right-wing wackos downplaying Soviet bloc atrocities for the same reason.
Don't let yourself be duped by that revisionist shit. -
I AM an American. And I agree with what you said. My point is that when that particular kind of warped view comes into play, it's virtually always an American. I'm not trying to say that all Americans are like that, far from it, but it's an affliction which I think is, sadly, uniquely American in this day and age.
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...look no further than BraneRobot and Noam Chomsky. In the right corner you have a guy who will downplay the number of Muslims murdered in the Balkans or say they deserved it, and in the left hand corner someone who claims the massacres are a fabrication or grossly exaggerated by the West.
What is their common target? Western-style liberal democracy. -
Generally, if you ask a person their political affiliation they will tell you what it is. If you ask David Duke if he is a socialist, I'm pretty sure he will answer in the negative.
Take that, and the history lessons I and others have provided for you, and try to draw some sensible conclusions instead of the warped and exceedingly faulty view you currently hold. -
"these days" doesn't necessarily mean last week.
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...Nazis also blame Jews for both Capitalism and Communism (!) yet will side with Communists if their common enemy is the West.
In pre-war Germany, Nazis and Communists hated each other and would fight in the streets. However, they would often team up in order to beat up liberals and social democrats, whom they hated even more than each other. -
See. We have some common political ground to work with.And in fact, yes--I do have some conservative beliefs: I was a republican for many years until the party shit on its supposedly libertarian ideals. For the most part, I'm a fiscal conservative. I'm pretty moderate that way, actually. I don't like governmental over-involvement in any aspect of my life, though I do acknowledge there are some situations in which government needs to intercede economically.I am against gun control except for the obvious assault rifles, etc.I have gone back and forth on the death penalty, though I'm no bleeding heart there I can assure you.I am for a strong defense and am not anti-war in sane cases.You see? When we find common ground it's easier to communicate. Now stop using crazy, inaccurate divisive political language, will ya?
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Don't bother. BraneRobot has gone on record saying that George W Bush is a liberal. He's beyond the realm of reason.
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I did not launch an Ad Hominem attack against you, but I damn sure will not sit by and allow you to launch one against me you revisionist, simple-minded, putrid piece of right-wing, shoe-licking, regurgitated baboon shit. You have no idea who you are talking to. I do not espouse any political party on this site, but I will not tolerate retarded jack-asses such as you and MorbidObesity and others who are bent on espousing your brand of stupidity and hatred. If you want to rock and roll with me, well then, to quote your favorite politician "Bring it on"
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Here's where you betray your myopic view of this whole matter. I and others here have stated unequivocally that we oppose left-wing extremism as much as the right-wing variety. It's only you and BraneRobot who seem to be saying that right-wing extremism simply cannot exist. I hate fascism and communism equally yet I have no trouble identifying one as leftist and one as right-wing. You should read Paxton's The Anatomy of Fascism. In the book he discusses the portion of fascism's roots which stem from the extreme left but he also explains why all fascist governments have been overwhelmingly right-wing populist in both theory and practice.
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http://tinyurl.com/34hcvsSince I not only live in Germany,but I am also from Croatian/Macedonian decent and my Mother lives in Croatia.I was in former "Yugoslavia"every year since 1975 until it ceased to exist.I know many people who fought for or against the Serbs.BraneRobot,if you say there was no Genocide,then you are spitting on 100.000+ killed by the serbian "Cetniks".You are sick and out of your mind!You should travel to Bosnia and tell the people there your theories.That would be real FUN!
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He's a complete monster. The only thing one can do is demonstrate to others what a fucking heinous creature he is every time he rears his pointy, shit-slicked cranium in these talkbacks, whether he shows up as Thunderballs, AnimalStructure or BraneRobot.
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...that "somebody" is only Robert Paxton, one of the nation's foremost experts on fascism, a Rhodes Scholar and emeritus professor of history at Columbia University.
I'm sure he's just a liberal trying to re-write history, right? -
Apr 02, 2008 5:49:33 PM CDT
Damn Doc,you are right,but I had to give some insight....
by travis-dane
to other people around here,about some facts that BraneRobot is lying about.I cant take that shit.People I know died in the Balkan war!But I am glad that you give him some shit,since my english is not good enough to really take him on.Thanks Doc....
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He hasn't denied any of the horrible characteristics of radical Islam, he merely disagrees with the assertion that they can be called "fascists" in accordance with the set of definitions he uses to identify fascist doctrines.
You and BraneRobot, on the other hand, consider ALL extremism to be leftist and can therefore not appreciate distinctions between different strains of totalitarian thought, whether it be left or right wing or strictly theocratic. -
Besides, there is only one language BraneRobot understands - a swift kick in the nuts.
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thats international!Everybody understands that!;-)
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I voted for HW Bush (twice), I voted for Dole, I voted for assorted repub reps (will not divulge my geographical location) throughout the 90s. That was back when I thought the republicans were libertarians, and I was much more naive. Gore 2000 was actually the first democrat I had ever voted for. Y'know, the idea of what is politically left and right has evolved with time. It's patently absurd to assert that only the left wing can be extreme. It's like you guys have this amazingly obvious blind spot. Discussion is all about taking a stand and conceding when you state something stupid in the heat of the moment. It's about give and take. Can you concede that the right wing is sometimes... just not right? As you've seen, I can certainly concede the left is sometimes full of shit.If you want to have a rational discussion, let's discuss. But if you want to make irrational rant after irrational rant, no one but your fellow politically myopic soldiers will take you seriously.
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Another Gore parallel!
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Nice guys can't be preisdent apparently. SOBs like Reagan who talks so wonderfully about loving America while turning the inner cities into cesspools are who get remmebered as decisive.
It was Carter who opposed the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and supplied the Mujahadeen which was a major factor that lead to the USSR's decline so why doesn't Carter get co-credit with Reagan for ending the Cold War? -
First of all, how could anyone love Israel more than America?? Israel is a part of America, you dweeb, with hundreds of thousands of Americans living there...get a history lesson, please! Second of all, Jimmy Carter is as anti-semitic as they come, in fact after his last book, several key people from his staff at his center resigned...what more proof do you need? I guess for you, Israel should just give up so it can be destroyed...then you'd be really happy, right?
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Peace not Apartheid - brilliant. Never mind that arabs inside Israel have more rights than in any arab country in the world, the idea of 'the wall' coming down and peace reigning is beyond ridiculous. All the palestinians want is for every jew to be dead and gone, and nothing less. They already have a state, it's called Jordan, only they're not allowed to live there except in refugee camps. Egypt used to own the Gaza strip, now they built a wall to keep the palestinians out.
The only parts of the Israeli wall that are solid concrete are where the palestinians were shooting at passing Israeli pedestrians and drivers. Everywhere else it's a chain-link fence.
Kuwait built a solid wall to keep out people from Oman; Saudi Arabia is building a wall; Cyprus has a wall; everyone else builds walls to keep trouble out and it's fine. Israel does it to stay alive and they're the monsters. The palestinians deserve all the misery they've heaped on themselves. I will not forget the scenes of them celebrating and passing out candy on 9/11. -
Spin it all you want, but Stalin and Mussolini were darlings of the left in the 20s and early 30s, Hitler less so in the 30s. The progressive movement of that period is firmly rooted in socialism with a touch of Margaret Sanger's racial purity through eugenics and Planned Parenthood. Maybe Hitler was taking notes?
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Except to add that the Palestinians also dress up their little babies and kids in terrorist outfits and mock guns to get into the "Jew-killing" mindset
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There is no argument that Mussolini, Stalin, and even the Nazi party were at one time or another the darlings of socialists movements worldwide. That can not be debated. What is debated is to what extent if any did any of those people or parties actually support Socialist agendas. In all three cases, but especially in the case of Nazism, the feint towards socialism was merely a stance in order to generate support and goodwill at a time when socialism had wide ranging popularity. But Nazism, especially when the token socialists where removed from the party, was an extremist conservative abomination. That is the point of the most recent posts in this talkback.
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Saying that Nazism was promoted by conservatives? That's really funny. Nazism was promoted by a nutcase, mainly Hitler, who was a dictator and so was in favor of big government (not a conservative ideal). Let me know when you see those UFOs too, okay?
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A correction, Jordan is not, and will never be a Palestinian state. The fact that there are an enormous amount of palestinian refugees in Jordan is a source of extreme irritation to Jordanians. I am an unshakeable supporter of Israel, but just wanted to point out the fact that the the question of where the Palestinians will reside, is not so simple as to say - live in Jordan. It must be resolved however, and it will take compromise from both sides. But I am on record as saying the Palestinians are perpetuating the violence and hatred that seems to be without end.
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The posts from today's discussion on nazism that I and others have posted, before you open your ignorant mouth. I will give you a pass this time - but only this time. So read first, write second. And when you do write, make sure you fully understand the topic.
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Two things have historically made it possible for fascists to come to power:
1) A failure of democracy. Fascists never "take" power. They achieve their position through the democratic process after which they dismantle it.
2) The support and cooperation of conservative elements in society and government. In each society fascists have come to power, they have done so with the help of conservatives who viewed them as a kind of "riot police" to clamp down on the threat of socialist upheaval. While many conservatives viewed them with distaste, they were considered preferable to the reds. -
You've already stated that genocide against Muslims is perfectly acceptable. Now you bray about how leftist extremists who believe in a utopia are willing to commit any crime to achieve it. What, pray tell, is worse than genocide?
You malevolent, disingenuous, hypocritical motherfucker. -
I'm done for the day, guys. Have fun!
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So extremism is only liberal? That is the single dumbest thing I have read in a very long time. Have you ever heard of the John Birch society? The KKK, Neo-nazis? Are you truly that stupid? Oh, yes, I forgot, you are.
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Laughing again...tears running down...so you are the expert on Nazism, huh? You'll give me a pass? That is just, well, hilarious.
Yes, I do have experience...Nazis killed 50 members of my family...so I think I know of what I speak. -
When people make statements such as BraneDeadRobot did about only liberalism having extremists, well, you can not debate with them. My bulldog is smarter than Branedeadrobot.
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Apparently, you didn't learn very much.
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Make sure you understand the topic, right?
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Another anti-Semite? Yes, I just see your swastika now..
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But I'll be back tomorrow.
School's out, bitches. -
Don't forget your "Heil Hitler" salute! Gotta show what you really are.
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No one has greater sympathy for the people and families that died in the holocaust than I. No one. That does not excuse ignorance of history though. I say again, please read and research the topic. Just one last thought; labels are wholly unimportant when it comes to ascribing to evil that was Nazism. The whole point of this debate has been to prevent revisionists from attempting to re-write history. This debate spiraled into subjects about extremism - which if you read Branerobot can only exist on the left. I and others refute that, refute it strongly. Goodnight.
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Brane Robot, mate Fascism does NOT come from the 'left'. Assuming we are talking about the stereotypical idea of what 'the left' is. In America in particular, Left and Right are indistinguishable from each other. Yes we all know what position the LEFT should take, and how the RIGHT will disagree in most situations, but these days even that is interchangeable. Saying Fascism is spawned from the 'left' is like saying playing computer games will make you kill people. You have to have been insane PRIOR to buying your Nintendo. DocPazuzu said: Fascists achieve power through the democratic process, which is true. But that says more about the errors of the voters (or indeed the manipulation of the party). For example, BUSH's original election. He gained power through the democratic process.... sort of. Well.. not really right? But how about communism... the supposedly FAR left China....are they "too damn tolerant!.. really?? I'm not sure I agree with that.
Likewise, Brane you said that "extremism is a feature of the Left, because their goal is Utopia on Earth, and as I have said before, when your goal is Utopia, what lie won't you tell?"
So.. declaring War on all countries with terrorists.... Extreme? Yes. Utopian? A little. LEFT? BUSH? Again... not sure about that.
Going back to the 9/11 thing, yes I'm sure a lot of people were secretly quite smug when they saw America "on it's knees". But a country on it's knees declaring War on practically every other country in the world via the excuse of 'terrorism' does not encourage good feelings. America didn't 'dust themselves off'. They were broken and (due to the general ignorance of Americans, and china-like approach of the Government to the information it makes available to the people) shocked. So the cried 'our guns are bigger than yours' and retaliated brutally. I would use the UK as an example of a country who knows how to dust themselves off. Repeatedly. The British know no fear. And this isn't any bush-speech inspired charade of misplaced patriotism either. The Brits have real balls.
The statement of the day:
Vicious Fish: "I happen to love my country, but just because you love something doesn't mean you can't criticize or attempt to fix it." Dead right. Thankyou Mr. Fish.
All yanks need to learn this. The entire population of China too. -
BringingSexyBack is anti-semetic. Sounds like dudeone is on a mission.
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There is as much proof of me sucking cocks, as there is for DocPaz being a Nazi.
And it's been happening since the yanks stopped calling themselves English. The last 50 years its just been happening more frequently.
Look, I assume you are American. Please don't prove everything that everyone thinks about America, by being a fat, ignorant, overly-patriotic-for-no-reason asshole. This clearly applies to you, so just read what Mr. Fish wrote: "I happen to love my country, but just because you love something doesn't mean you can't criticize or attempt to fix it." -
Not in any particular order 1) George W. Bush 2) McKinley (along with the media, propagated lies to the American public to go to war with Spain because he claimed it was god's plan for him) 3) Buchannon (let the nation slip into Civil War) 4) Hoover (Great Depression) 5) John Adams (Alien & Sedition Acts) 6) Ulysses S. Grant (Teapot Dome & other related scandals) 7) Franklin Pierce (repealed MO compromise and opened the West to slavery & Ostend Manifesto). Jimmy Carter was by no means a good president. However, it was not by his doing. The Iranian Revolution was a product of decades of Western interference with Iran. Carter, however, was not able to deal with the situation. The energy crisis (man I wish that we had that sort of crisis today) was a product of OPEC putting the scews to the West. Again, Carter could not handle that. He was the wrong guy at the wrong time.
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can you give us an example of who you consider to be a true conservative? a name that we morons might have heard of? I assume you are talking about the UK's conservative party? As in the opposition?
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... if RIGHT = conservative, what would you consider to be an example of LEFT? Labour? Democrat? Nazi?
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...supremely hilarious or devastatingly sad. Maybe both. I find it unsettling, to say the least, to think that a not-insignificant number of people living around me might share some of the sickening opinions that I've read here. However, Branerobot arguing that extremism somehow negates conservative ideology, that's straight-faced comedy on the level of an inspired David Brent monologue. But I think the only thing this talkback really proves is that it's nearly impossible to have a constructive conversation, especially concerning politics, on a public internet forum these days. I bet this kind of retarded venomous hair-splitting e-peenmanship doesn't happen at, say, BNAT, when people have to look each other in the face to talk their shit.
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a douchebag by any name.
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Unless it be *GASP* Americans buying 30% of Manchester United. OH THE HORROR!!!
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Seriously BSB, I can understand that you think he's good people because he'll talk to you due to your easliy understandable liberal sensibilities, but how could I get along or even have a civil conversation whose starting point is that he wants to fucking shoot me dead "like a dog". Yeah, that's really mature and sensible. Hey fucknut, maybe instead of being an ignorant ass, you should try and ask why there are people who choose to be Anarchists. Now mind you I'm not particularly defending the activity of some truly deluded retards out there, but I'd like it if we could at least open the channels of discourse here. I am not a monster dude, I'm a non-violent Anarcho-Syndicalist. There's a lot of us out there. In fact a lot of liberals and right-libertarians become Anarchists due to the former's distrust of capitalism and the latter's distrust of government. Btw calling Anarchists "commies" is about as accurate as calling Jews "nazis" or Uwe Boll a "good director". Oh and Branerobot is an asshole and he really badly needs to read up on political theory or history or SOMETHING! Books are your friends!
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I should avoid posting when drunk because my spelling and grammar in that last post was atrocious.
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This has gone far enough. I'm am going to keep posting in every talkback about why most of you are ridiculous. First, rent "A Guide to Recognizing Your Saints". Second, he CARRIED Transformers and Disturbia. Disturbia made $80 mil domestically. Think about that. Substitute anyone in that role and it is unwatchable. Finally, he has one second of dialogue in that spot and you can tell it's good. So stop, it's desperate.
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.....
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...the only one in this talkback who doesn't understand how fucked up and lucicrously hypocritical it is to condemn genocide of one people yet condone it against another? It's not actually genocide as a concept he opposes, on the contrary, he sees it as a viable political tool. He only uses the term as a verbal bat when it suits his aim.
BraneRobot is about as cold-hearted, malicious and evil as a human being can get. The only difference is that he hopefully hasn't actually harmed anyone in real life yet. -
I'm an asshole, I know.
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I tip my hat to you guys. Some of you not only brought your 'A' game but have gone far beyond expectations. Shock and Awe, Liberal-style. And to see DocPazuzu being called a Nazi and anti-semite by Dudeone, just goes to show how little thought some people put into their words. Knowing Doc for years now, that's gotta be one of the most ironic and bone-headed things I've ever read.
I'd never delved too deep into conversation with AnimalStructure/Branerobot before but now I see how rigidly entrenched his right-wingism is. Basically, it boils down to the "fact" that there are conservatives, and then there's everyone else. But being conservative doesn't mean opposing genocide or other actions that might be considered extremist by, say, the rest of the human race. Okay, gotcha.
MORBID: I'm here just like everyone else, and this Talkback proves there to be no better place to spend Net time. I appreciate all the name-calling and baiting you've directed at me, going so far as to talk about my mom's $2 blowjobs in the Stop-Loss TB, and then climbing onto some pedestal pretending you're above the fray. I don't even mind that as much as your talking down to Toadkillerdog when he clearly and systematically demolished your talking points. Thanks for demonstrating what the results of debating you are.
THEONEBLOOD: From some previous talkbacks, I've known Bill to be more open-minded than a few posts would lead one to think. Every single person has talked shit around here, but most come around. I've toned down my rhetoric quite a bit myself. Bill's no fascist, that's for sure. Hell, I talked about taking a corkscrew to Brane's ass just above - does it mean anything? Nah. I'm willing to bet if you and Bill ever delved into the finer details of your respective political leanings you'd find mutual understanding, though not necessarily agreement.
"Israel is a part of America, you dweeb". That, to me, is the defining statement of the core issue in this Talkback right there. That reasoning is why Carter is so demonized. It is the reason why people *FEAR* his book so much as to want to drown it. That reasoning is the why and how of the Iraq War. That reasoning is one of the main reasons why America is made, and perceived to be, so partisan in the Middle East and so resented. Rather than remaining neutral and objective in the Israeli/Palestinian issue, which if you truly think about it, would be the most sensible and effective stance America can take, we are dragged into the distractions of hate instead.
Dudeone, I suggest you choose a country and stick by it. I don't believe in dual-citizenship. And it's not my problem you're offended by people not seeing all Palestinians as an evil abomination. Some of them are fucked, some of the Israelis are fucked. I don't advocate Israel's destruction any more than Palestine's. You're both gonna kill each other until you become just a footnote in the history of the human race. Maybe try sorting that out before it happens. -
I can admit when I am wrong, and your point about me seeming to 'threaten' commentators is factually accurate , though not even remotely true. By that I mean, I re-read some of my posts, and I can see that my 'friendly warning' could be interpreted as a threat - although in honesty how can anyone be threatened over the internet? But, the truth is that I never meant any physical violence, or any type of violence. It was a 'warning' to people holding extremist views, who launched ad hominem attacks, that I would not turn the other cheek, but would respond. Which should assure some that I am far from being a liberal! If I frightened you or others in any way - and I am being facetious, I do apologize. Now, back to the action.
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Apr 03, 2008 8:41:22 AM CDT
MorbidObesity - there are still people who believe the earth is
by toadkillerdog
They have a right to their beliefs, but I do not have to continuously try and debate them. Every single 'point' you and BraneRobot attempted to make has been refuted by either myself of someone else on this thread. Not with just made up facts, but backed up and illustrated with proofs; intellectual, historic, and uncontroverted. You and others may continue to believe what the revisionists are saying, and I may never sway your opinion, sad, but it no longer matters. It is to those on this thread who do not know much about the events of the past that I speak to now. I encourage everyone, whether they believe me or you, to find out for themselves. Do their own research, and not just a narrow point of view, look at all sides. When someone like BraneRobot says that extremists can only come from the left, (and I pointed out the Birchers, and Posse Commitatus, and neo-nazis as just a few examples of right-wing extremism) well, I can no longer hold any meaningful dialogue with that type of demagogue. This forum tends to attract people such as yourself with closed minds, and extreme viewpoints. I do not care which side of the political spectrum you are from, I detest extremist close-minded views. I like to think that I can be persuaded by a sound argument. I like to think there are still others on this site who can be as well.
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That is what the Subject header should have stated
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Apr 03, 2008 9:03:36 AM CDT
You missed the point - I am reposting an earlier post of mine
by toadkillerdog
Maybe you did not read this, or just ignored it. There is no argument that Mussolini, Stalin, and even the Nazi party were at one time or another the darlings of socialists movements worldwide. That can not be debated. What is debated is to what extent if any did any of those people or parties actually support Socialist agendas. In all three cases, but especially in the case of Nazism, the feint towards socialism was merely a stance in order to generate support and goodwill at a time when socialism had wide ranging popularity. But Nazism, especially when the token socialists where removed from the party, was an extremist conservative abomination. That is the point of the most recent posts in this talkback.
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So socialist they were anti-communist! Now THAT'S hardcore
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Those Nazi communal farms were AWESOME
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YOu need to extend your sarcasm antennae
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Yes, every point you made has been refuted, and yes I apologized if you or anyone else felt 'threatened' by what I said, I said to MorbidObesity 'It was a 'warning' to people holding extremist views, who launched ad hominem attacks, that I would not turn the other cheek, but would respond. Which should assure some that I am far from being a liberal! '. But I am sorry if it came out in threatening manner, not my inetention. But you, are truly a sad and pathetic individual. I am not sure where the 100,000 Muslim deaths are coming from, I assume it is the number of humans that Slobo killed. It is a travesty that you or any others can believe that number is insufficient to constitute genocide. It is beyond despicapable that any human could hold those views. And your assinine assertion that the Right wing has no extremists has been disproven by the John Birchers, and Posse Commitatus (Who I am quite sure would be thrilled to know that you consder them leftists!) I am no longer attempting to change your mind with a reason, that is impossible, but I will refute your hatred and ignorance whenever I get the chance in hopes that others will not be so simple minded. You are pathetic, and I feel sorry for you, because I think deep down you realize just how pathetic you really are, and you do not care.
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...if genocide or ethnic cleansing is halted or for some other reason stops before it can be completed, it can no longer be called genocide or ethnic cleansing. Intent means nothing to BraneRobot. By his own logic the Nazis weren't guilty of genocide because they weren't able to complete the wiping out of Jews and Gypsíes in Europe.
In short, BraneRobot is a callous, psychopatic cunt. -
When it comes to the total body count, the increase in the size and power of the Federal Government, the increase in the budget deficit, the national debt and future unfunded liabilities Jimmy Carter has nothing on George W. Bush.
Carter was a joke. George W. Bush is a fucking nightmare. -
I suppose that the Deutsche Demokratische Republik actually was a democratic republic, right? Or that the People's Republic of North Korea really belongs to the people?
Why are you insisting on being so dense that you cannot grasp the simple fact that National Socialists used a combination of terms in their title in order to secure as broad-based support as they possibly could from both the left and the right? -
...side in the Spanish Civil War, which consisted of, among other things, communists and socialists, called themselves Republicans they must have held the same views as the GOP, right?
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During the civil war, it was the Republican party that was the enligtened party of the people. The Democrats, mostly rich southerners, were deathly opposed to freedoms, so yes, the early stages of the KKK were stocked by democrats. Can not deny that truth. As I said, parties changed and evolved. The Republicans were not and are not evil. And Democrats were not and are not free of the sin of slavery and other great ills that befell this nation. The Republicans began attracting the far right and conservative movements because it was the only party they could call a home (I am skipping huge chuncks of history here). True Republicans do not like the conservative or ultra conservative branches, and vice versa. That is why you have the open battle between McCain and the Limbaughs of the world. And the real nutjobs like Pat Robertson. Extremists, who live on both sides of the political fence have agendas that are anathema to true freedom.
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I was disappointed with his Manchurian Candidate remake, but it seems like he's having a lot of success making documentaries. I'll have to check out this ode to Jimmy Carter.
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Anchorite can use Wikipedia...YEAHHHHHH!!!!
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What the right wing zealots are forgetting is the little word "nationalist" which precedes the word "socialist", not to mention the Nazi and fascist relationship to big business and conservative political elements in the countries where they came to power.
Bottom line: if you can't accept the fact that there is extremism on both ends of the political spectrum, then you are a political imbecile and probably shouldn't even leave your home without a helmet.
Why do I have to keep repeating this shit? -
It does feel as if the IQ's are dropping like stones in a pond around here sometimes. But I hold out hope that some may find these posts enlightening, as we counter the ignorance of some of the more egregiously sinister people around here. My biggest hope is that regardless of viewpoint, people will will be spurred to research before they respond. And that they will not just look at the websites that cater to a particular idealogy, expand the horizon. Learning should be a continuous and joyful experience. It must be awful to be close-minded. The 'aha' moment when something I had just assumed, is proven either true or false, is worth the effort of discovery.
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Both political ideologies have within them the seeds for both extremism and freedom. Semantic tug-of-wars over Lincoln's republicanism or the KKK's democratic membership or the philosophical meaning of the word 'socialism' in the Nazi Party Are ultimately worthless arguments. The amount to mudslinging, the biggest waste of time between the right and left.
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Whether you agree with him or not, Toad seems to have a perfectly sensible way of going about things. I'm pretty sure those folks you mentioned wouldn't disagree.
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Apr 03, 2008 2:11:48 PM CDT
THIS TALKBACK IS BRILLIANT, EVEN WITH THE SHIT-SLINGING
by bringingsexyback
Morbid: Node is right - you have a propensity for ascribing words to others and believing that's a valid debate tactic. It's clearly not so much me "claiming victory" as you feeling defeated or besieged. Not by me, mind you, because I haven't felt the urge to waste time with you - but by the likes of esteemed Talkbackers here too numerous to list. But at least you've got AnimalStructure/Branerobot to appreciate you. Palestine = Atlantis? A land with no people? I think your propaganda is lost among some serious free-thinking people around here. Like I said above, both sides need to cut to the chase and work out some practical solution. Part of that involves acknowledging each others' claims and rights.
Brane: You admitted an interesting point - prodded and inspired by Doc, Toad, Fishus and others - that cut to the heart of this debate. Labels really are meaningless, and labels are used to brainwash the masses. This manipulation of language is something everyone should be cautious about. Animal Farm should be required annual reading for Americans just as a tool for maintaining our democracy. Everything about the Bush Administration has been about the manipulation of people through language. From "Compassionate Conservatism" to the "Clear Skies Initiative", everything is about insinuating one thing and doing the other. A point so enlighteningly made in this Talkback.
Did you read Xiphos' post about Bosnia? You know who you remind me of? Watch the documentary "The Devil Came On Horseback", about Darfur. There's a scene where Brian Steidle, the Marine who witnessed the massacres of Africans by the Janjaweed militias, was holding a seminar and showing definitive proof with thousands of pictures he had personally taken of the murdered Africans. It was racist mass murder for the purpose of wiping out Black Africans in the region. That's it - it's not about how many, but like Doc said, it's about intent and mission. In this case, it is many. What was startling was how Sudanese-Arabs at the seminar, one after another, took the mic and refuted his claims. In the face of absolute proof, they provided none. They denied, just like you did, out of sheer racism. They deny genocide because it was done to Christian Africans. You deny because it was done to Muslims. You're both wacked, and guess what? You're both extreme.
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I really, honestly do. I have had to re-evaulate my approach to folks such as yourself who are totally immune to reason. My first tendency would have been to reply in kind to your profanity laced, tirade - as I did yesterday (albeit in a much more holier-than-thou manner - gotta keep that halo dontcha know?). But as others such as Le Vicious Fishus, DocPazuzu Node, et al have pointed out, and as your truly offensive and ignorant rants have born out, you are a truly sad human being that deserves pity, not scorn. Dropping all pretense, I feel sorry for you. Anyone who can believe that the loss of 100,000 lives within one targeted ethnic group is not genocide, anyone who can consistently ignore rational truths because they would invalidate a truly worthless existence, any one who espouses such hatred and ignorance, is someone who needs help and the compassion of others.
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You think murdering 8,000 civilian men and boys in Srebrenica was "breaking a few eggs" in order to "make an omelette".
That alone makes anything else you say completely invalid. It doesn't even matter that I and others have refuted everything you have said in this talkback. The fact that you consider genocide against the "right" kind of people okay makes you nothing but a sulfurously evil scumbag and worthy of nothing but scorn and derision.
I have made it my mission to counter everything you say in talkback over the past couple of years and it doesn't matter how many new names you hide behind after you get your ass handed to you in your current incarnations, I will seek you out (not very difficult) and continue to destroy you wherever and whenever you slime out from under your rock. -
His kind is pitiful, and I do feel sorry for him, it must be awful to be that hateful and unreasoning. But that does not excuse his pathetic and truly ignorant rants. It is no fun debating someone like that. I mean, I do enjoy a good debate were ideas are exchanged, and even if you can not sway a person you with your argument, at least at the end you get the feeling that they are a good person. Not so in the least with BraneRobot. He is simply despicable. A true waste of skin if I may borrow a phrase from Romulans. A name flashed into my head just now while thinking about Branerobot - Timothy McVeigh. I hope I am wrong, but he really does seem the type.
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thanks.
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...I tend to be steering clear of the AICN political TBs. It's always the usual cast of characters, the same heated talking points, and what always feels like the same amount of wasted time spent making perfectly valid points that end up getting completely ignored by the given opposition.That being said, I want to hand it to those of you who have taken BraneRobot (AnimalStructure, Thunderballs, etc.) to task. Kudos. Don't let this vile cretin and his huge leaps in circular political logic go uncontested. Keep bringing your A-games.And I'm sure this "true" conservative's next trick will be to tell everyone (again) how much he loves and endorses the idea of mass abortions because they would reduce the overall liberal population. I wish I were joking about that but AnimalThunderBot has also been known to say things like:"And yes, a Christian or a Jewish or a Buddhist life is worth more to me than a Muslim one. Know why? Cause I am a real American who says "leave me the fuck alone or you're all gonna fucking pay!" That's how America became America, by not taking anyone's shit."BraneRobot = Cunt
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If, as you describe liberalism knows no bounds when it comes to extremism because and I quote "...places nearly no limits on the government or its ability to redistribute wealth. Once you go towards extremism, you go toward a version of the Left". Well, if conservatives want less government, and ultra-conservatives want even less gov't than that, and far right nut cases like Birchers and Posse Commitatus do not even recognize the right of gov't to regulate them, then what in the nine mahen hells are Anarchists if not the most extreme right of them all? Pray tell?
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THEY MUST BE SOCIALIST RIGHT? RIGHT? RIGHT? RIGHT? RIGHT? RIGHT? RIGHT? Did the Nazi party spring from the same movement as Lenin etc? NO. Were they in fact anti-communist? Yes. You can call them socialist all you want, but trying to connect Nazism to what is conventionally referred to as leftism is RETARDED. You can find this out in a bout 10 minutes if you just google "Nazi Party"
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Sorry about all those caps. That was lame.
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I been here for a while. That was my sixth post after all. I think. From wikipedia on your boy Ley:" Ley's poor background and his experience as head of the largely working-class Ruhr party region meant that he was sympathetic to the "socialist" wing of the Nazi Party, which Hitler opposed, but he always sided with Hitler in inner party disputes." Etc. That took all of two minutes. The main point - again - is whether or not they claimed socialist values in campaigning or whatever, they were NOT related to the Marxist-Leninist movements happening concurrently, and Hitler and the party in general were anti-communist. Saying they were socialist in the sense of trying to connect them to other movements is grasping at straws. Technically none of these were really socialist, but the point is they are unconnected in any substantial way.
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I didn't call it research. If the man was such an apparent socialist then don't you thin it would be ... apparent? I shouldn't have to dig for a fact like this. Something you might want to consider before basing your entire argument on it.I'm not very interested in alternate histories if that's what you're trucking in. I suppose Zionists blew up the Twin Towers from the inside too.Anyway even if Ley WAS a "socialist", it's still only one guy and all these well-known connections ought to be easily found, so why don't you post some links? I'll be happy to learn something new.
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It has been said time and time again in this thread, the nazis paid lip service to the true ideals of socialism during their nascent stage in order to curry favor with the supporters of socialism, which was very popular during the 20's and 30's and had many well heeled and well connected adherents here in the United States and around the world. Of course it attracted socialists who became members of the nazi party, but what happened to those socialists and any socialist agenda once Nazism was fully entrenched? They were jettisoned for the true nazi ideal - which I believe you yourself acknowledged when you said the leadership of the Nazis abandoned the socialists priniciples. Not your exact words, but I will look them up if you insist. Nazism, as envsined by its leaders was never intended to be socialism, but they damn sure took advantage of socialist movement.
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Yes one prominent member of the Nazi Party had "socialist tendencies" earlier in life, which were hardly in evidence at all during his time with the Nazis and in fact were met with serious disapproval from Hitler and the party at large ...THEREFORE the Nazis were socialists, socialists are leftists, leftists are liberals, so liberals are Nazis. Oh and so are progressives, duh.
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Is that a rhetorical, or rather retardical, question?
Why don't you read the posts made by me and others where we describe exactly why they were right wing. While you're at it, you insufferable mollusk, feel free to counter my post regarding what you called the "anti-American" Kosovars. You may also want (well, probably not) to read the post regarding intent when it comes to genocide since you seem to have confused the concept with collateral damage.
Regarding the Kosovars, last time I checked they were about as "brown" as Wesley Clark.
Once again, you fail miserably, you diabolical fucking cretin. -
Nazis do not equal Commies. The Nazi's at least recognized capitalism at the best production method (despite socializing everything else, the military-industrial plants got 5% profit during Nazi Germany). But I agree with previous posts: the only difference between total fascism and total communism is the rhetoric, people are just expendable chattel to both systems... Don't really give two shits about the rest of the recent debate. I'm just posting to see if anyone knows anything about Shotgun Stories. I've been to the website, seen the trailer, and listened to the beautiful song the site plays (from the soundtrack). It all seems really cool and awesome. Since the AICN staffers are too busy with whateverthefuck to actually keep up with cool news, I was hoping one of you would know about this movie's quality or future distribution.
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to this political debate. Traditionally, American "conservatives" are Classical Liberals (classical liberalism didn't include drugs, homosexuality, or abortion because it's philosophers lived and died before our great great grandparents were born). Modern American "conservative" fundamentals are supposed to be based on the philosophy of John Locke via the Founding Fathers (admittedly among other philosophers; he is just the most widely reported philosopher that the Founding Fathers dug), which has little in common (by Euro standards) with Euro right-wing parties or present day Neo-cons. American "conservatives" are just Libertarians who take religious/moral stands on social issues such as abortions and homosexuality and tend to be hawkish with regard to foreign policy.
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I hope you find the will to resist; I already regret posting.
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Before anyone bitches me out for my posting (which I deserve for not specifying), I'm basing what I said off the political philosophers (that I've read) of the movements rather than polls or politicians. I figure if I keep this theoretical, I won't piss anyone off too bad.
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Apr 03, 2008 9:03:50 PM CDT
Brane - What about Anarchy? And I answered your question
by toadkillerdog
You just love to conveniently ignore truths that will rock your insular little world. I posed a question that you can not answer. Let me post it again, If, as you describe liberalism knows no bounds when it comes to extremism because and I quote "...places nearly no limits on the government or its ability to redistribute wealth. Once you go towards extremism, you go toward a version of the Left". Well, if conservatives want less government, and ultra-conservatives want even less gov't than that, and far right nut cases like Birchers and Posse Commitatus do not even recognize the right of gov't to regulate them, then what in the nine mahen hells are Anarchists if not the most extreme right of them all? Pray tell? Now, let me answer your question you said""if I go out and kill a white guy, and as I am doing so say "I want to destroy all white people!!!!" am I guilty of genocide? Yes or no?" The answer is no. Now answer my question.
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My God. What the FUCK are you babbling about?! Riddle me this fuckface - what is so conservative (with a little "c") about advocating a stance that justifies genocide? What is so conservative about advocating abortions en masse? What is so conservative about claiming one group of religious or ethnic peoples is better or more worthy than another?I ask you this because they are all stances that you have repeatedly taken under various names on this website. I sure as hell would like to know what "philosophy, debate, and freedom" loving conservatives you are referring to because they sure as fuck ain't you.You've got to be a joke handle, man. There is NO WAY you are this monstrously stupid over and over and over again.
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Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi minister or PROPAGANDA? You are seriously asking us to believe anything that he has to say? Go back to Ley. Because if that is all you have, it is laughable. And for the record I never disputed that Nazism had a socialist feint. I have said that from the very beginning, or perhaps you do not know what the word 'feint' means? The nazi leadership never was and never would have been socialist. It was a feint to capitalize on the worldwide socialist movement that existed at the time.
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'Ideas, information, or rumors spread for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person.' And this is the man we are supposed to believe told the 'truth' abput Nazi intentions? And I could care less what Stalin or Khrushchev was. Communism in any form was a complete and total disaster. Now, stick to the topic at hand.
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'false or partly false information used by a government or political party intended to sway the opinions of the population.' And this from the man you are propping up as a truth teller of the intentions of nazis?
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And just how does adding the words 'national enlightenment' make me ignorant of history? What exactly does that mean? It seems once again, when you are confronted by a truth you attempt to evade answering and try to shift the blame to others. Will not work son. You brought up Goebbels and thrust him out as your standard bearer - The Minister of propaganda. That is a huge mistake on your part and I think you know it. Notice it does not say 'Minister of national enlightenment first' what ever the hell that means anyway. Pathetic Morbid. I gave you slightly more credit for creative thought than BraneRobot, not much more, but still. And now you are couching your terms 'Nazi vision of socialism'. Not just socialism anymore, huh?
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Dude... the NeoMarxist movement (started in the 50's; sorry, but a completely leftist, bullshit, excuse for a historical prism) has had its back broken. Currently, all the grad students and young profs want the be Niall Ferguson and/or David S. Landes. They argue that Guns, Germs, and Steel (or whatever that PC bullshit was called) is, in fact, total bullshit.
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I see that lately you have been trying to distance 'conservative' from 'right wing'. And you have only done so in the face of mounting evidence and posts that have trapped you. You even resorted to using 'little c conservative' whatever the hell that means. But you can not escape. Because the debate here has been liberals and conservatives, and since liberals are on the left (which may be the only thing we will ever agree on) and moderates are in the middle, then that only leaves the right for conservatives. Your own words about extremism say only the left can have them. But I pointed out Birchers, Posse commitatus, and finally anarchists. And you have no answer. Let me use your words again about consservatives "...they believe in limited government". So when Ultra conservatives such as pat robertson believe in even less gov't, than your conservatives big c or little c, and posse commitatus and birchers who beleive that gov't can not tell them what to do on their land (extremist? hell yes! leftist? hell no!) and when anarchists who do not beleive in gov't at all (extremist? oh yes, leftist? hell no. far right extremist -yes, the farthest right you can get), then how can you say extremism exists only on the left. And i truly want you to answer how Birchers, posse members and anarchists could ever be considered leftists, when as you say extreme leftists "places nearly no limits on the government or its ability to redistribute wealth" and none of the above support gov't. How branerobot, are...they...not...extreme..right....wing? How?
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NeoMarxism got ruined in the growing backlash against "Political Correctness" replacing verifiable history with baseless, PC, opinion. Sure... it took a few decades... but we're talking about Academia here.
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You chose to put Goebbels - the minister of propaganda, front and center as your standard bearer for explaining nazi socialism to the masses. You are no longer just saying they were socialists, but now they have a 'nazi socialist vision'. How can you suggest that I do not think Goebbels is the 'real spokesman'? He damn sure IS! There is no question or debate on that. And that is my point. He was a propaganda true believer on nazism and would do and say anything to further the cause. He even killed is own family alongside Hitler. to die with his master. This is a man who would do anything for his cause and you put him forth as an honest spokesman of nazi intentions and beliefs? You are the one who is absurd.
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Is that better? My Herald forgot the comma. No planet eating today.
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Okay, let's just get to the fucking heart of the matter. You people are viewing the political spectrum entirely incorrectly thanks to the completely insufficient left-right or "circle" analogy. The truth is that poltical beliefs are measured on both an "X" and a "Y" axis. http://www.politicalcompass.org/index Check out this website for a clarification. Think of the X axis as your "economic" axis, with the far right being laizze faire "law of the jungle" capitalism and your far left being collectivism. Now take the Y axis as your "statist" and "anti-statist" axis. The further up you go the more power you think the state should have and the further south you go the more you subscribe to libertarian beliefs. Thus, Robert Mugabe is left on the economic scale and up on the totalitarian one, being an authoratarian guy who believes in collectivesed economic management. Augusto Pinochet, on the other hand, is on the right of the economic spectrum but also north of the y axis. So they are both bloody dictators but their policies regarding economics are completely opposed. To review: Libertarian Capitalists (Ron Paul et al) are -y +x Authoratarian Communists are +y -x Fascists are only slightly right economically but are VERY north +y +x and Libertarian Socialists are -y -x Thusly, whilst Stalin and Hitler may have desipised their respective economic policies, they would have agreed on a lot if they got to discussing how they viewed power. Looking at Fascism it's one of the most bizzare and monstrous poitical ideologies to be born in the 20th century. It was started by the searching for a "third way" between evil capitalism and evil communism. In fact one of the early "inspirations" for Fascist intellectuals was Proudhoun, one of the founding fathers of Anarchism! They loved his anti-semitism and his anti-capitalism. It was only in the attainment of power that Fascists would typically kowtow to capitalist industries in order to maintain their power base. Thus you had some horrible fusion between these two strains of political thought as soon as Fascists supposedly began to enact their policies. Across the board, from Portugal to Spain to Japan to Romania to Italy to Germany, we see the Fascists utilising three key ideas: 1) Ultra-Nationlism 2) Massive Centralisation of Power 3) Huge stratification of class structure. That still leaves a lot of room for difference. So you have the Spanish using a kind of Catholic Fascism, which focuses on brutal religious enforcement of social mores and then you have Pagan Fascism, such as in Germany where a new religion is sort of begun centering on the leader of the nation.
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I thought you might have a few more brain cells than BraneRobot, I was mistaken. You see Morbid, the thing in choosing someone as inherently untrustworthy as Goebbels, is that it totally undermine any agrument you are attempting to make. And that will never change. Goebbels is studied throughout the world for his facile defense and prosthelytizing of nazism. So of course he would be he perfect person to lie to the world about nazi intentions. I must admit, this debate has forced me to go back to he books and some websites, and I have found there is still contentious scholarly debate about nazism and fascism, although the consensus is leaning towards placing nazism into the fascist camp, there are still those who say it can not be so easily compartmentalized, and want to create a separate category. Nazism regardless of where you want to classify it on the spectrum, was an abomination. I can stipulate that what was once considered left is now considered right. But that thought would make BraneRobots head explode.
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youngblood... anyone can draw a graph. It's just a tool. The whole purpose of a plotting a graph is to demonstrate the evidence in support of an argument. A graph in and of itself, is nothing. Morbid, I'm not arguing that it's difficult to find Commie profs. Hell, by the fall of the Berlin Wall... the only idiots left that believed in communism were concentrated in Western College towns. I'm just saying, the tide is turning against them, at least in the history departments.
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I will check out that website in the morning, a bit late on this side of the pond - i am assuming you are British by your usage of whilst, if I am wrong, apologies. Sleep time for me. But you definitely have given all of us - those that are open minded i should say, food for thought. Good night.
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...you may be the most stubbornly wrong person I've ever seen post to this site. It's like the republican bootlicker version of Clinton hairsplitting the definition of the word "is," except you never seem to run out of bullshit. It's almost inspiring, like the insane tenacity of a man slowly beating himself to death with a wiffle ball bat. So, congratulations on being so defiantly wrong, your commander in chief would be proud.
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That made me laugh so hard it frightened my bulldog! The wiffle ball bat line that is!
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by your logic, the only difference is: a random person on a anonymous internet forum is not admitting he/she is wrong... vs a sitting PRESIDENT OF THE FUCKING UNITED STATES OF AMERICA COMMITTING A FUCKING FELONY.
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Thanks, I'm here all week, be sure and try the buffet! And my apologies to your dog.
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I'm committing a felony as we speak (or at least a hefty misdemeanor), so you'll forgive me if I don't really give a shit that Clinton lied about getting a blowjob from an intern. As lying from politicians is as sure as death and taxes, I'd much rather have that lie concern an innocent adulterous blowjob than a string of lies that lead to a fucked up invasion of a sovereign country resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people. But, as I can tell from your caps, you probably don't agree with me.
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I don't care how you try to justify it... a sitting President, undergoing impeachment hearings, committed perjury (perjury is a felony, pure and simple). There's no excuse for that bullshit, regardless of the original situation.
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I don't care about you're joint. There's a big difference between a joint and the Commander In Chief lying under oath, in a court of law, on trial.
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"your" not "you're"
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I get the idea that you're basing your entire argument on Ley by the fact that up to that point you'd mentioned no other specifics as to socialists in the Nazi Party. Now you've added one Goebbels quote, which is hardly a quote that seals the deal in anyway shape or form. The problem I'm having with your arguments is you haven't really addressed any of the counter-arguments specifically. You just keep on adding half-assed "evidence" to support things you've said that have already been refuted, without actually taking on the refutations.
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And I'd never touch you're joint, I resent the implication! Anyway, what's bullshit was the fact that a sitting president was on trial for lying about getting a blowjob, which itself is a non-issue that republicans turned into a convenient excuse to waste millions of taxpayer dollars playing a completely pointless game of "gotcha" nitpicking and a means to trash their mortal enemies. And if you really truly believe that Clinton lying about getting a blowjob is a serious crime we should be worried about, while overlooking the criminal insanity going on in the current administration, all I can do is laugh at you and offer you a hit... er, smuggled immigrant prostitute.
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However I am yet to see a single perspective of the political spectrum which has more effectively and logically split the differences. If you'd care to, maybe you'd like to explain why you don't see the x y axis as a more reasonable view of the affair? Oh and by the way Toadkillerdog, I'm actually an Australian. I just thought I'd like to add that Jimmy Carter is a perfectly nice gentleman, however you can't be just a nice guy when you're in charge of a massively powerful state.
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MORBID: Communism may have fallen out of favor on college campuses, but it's disputable that it was ever greatly in favor to begin with. More like typical Right-Wing paranoia at work. But judging by the very real escalating shift of the student population towards the Democrats, with a corresponding decline of Republicans on campuses across the country, it looks like you now have something else to moan about.
The fact that Clinton was impeached, and committed perjury (which, I agree, is not excusable) and Bush not being impeached yet lying while not under oath (and in fact objected to being held under oath when he was asked to testify to the 9/11 Committee) boils down to a travesty of Justice with a capital J. Clinton was impeached because the Republicans controlled Congress as well as their attack dog Ken Starr. Bush escapes judicial scrutiny because, quite frankly, we're in the middle of a war he started and the Dems don't have enough control to impeach. So really, it's not that Bush and Company are innocent, but they skate by on favorable circumstances. And on something a little more severe than consensual sex.
THEONEBLOOD: That site is an interesting analysis of political ideologies. To me, it sure illustrated much of the discussion that has gone on here. Maybe they can add a 3rd dimensional axis for Brane and Morbid, that factors in mental state.
TOADKILLERDOG, NODE, EBONIC, DOC, THUNDERBOLT (and anyone else I missed - lots of posts here): Kudos to you guys for trying to talk the jumpers down from the ledge. Brane's a racist with a genocidal bent - that is all. And how someone like Morbid can place such solid faith and belief in the words of an historically-renowned propagandist (a/k/a liar, as in someone who does not tell the truth) is just too stupid for words. Trust me: he knows he's knocked down. He's just riding out the clock at this point. You all know this every time he comes back with the same response, just slightly altered and laced with a new variation on an old insult.
MORBID/BRANE: Two peas in a pod. You're a real comedy act. Central to the act of democide is to deny your victims their identity ("Palestinians" in quotes, "There is no such thing as a Palestinian."), deny them their history (the brain-dead Atlantis analogy, a land without a people) and their dignity ("Not even non-Jewish Arabs like "Palestinians.""). What's fascinating about this discussion is how all the actual racists felt compelled to admit their racism and voice their hatred in the most humiliating ways, yet needed to deflect criticism by accusing others of being the racists. Like I said, a real comedy act. But, really, more like a joke. -
And wouldn't want them lumped with the good guys, so here it is again:
MORBID/BRANE: Two peas in a pod. You're a real comedy act. Central to the act of democide is to deny your victims their identity ("Palestinians" in quotes, "There is no such thing as a Palestinian."), deny them their history (the brain-dead Atlantis analogy, a land without a people) and their dignity ("Not even non-Jewish Arabs like "Palestinians.""). What's fascinating about this discussion is how all the actual racists felt compelled to admit their racism and voice their hatred in the most humiliating ways, yet needed to deflect criticism by accusing others of being the racists. Like I said, a real comedy act. But, really, more like a joke. -
Seriously, this guy is clueless. Taking Goebbels, who is charged with manipulating the minds of millions, at his word. Too funny, man.
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would just live in tribes in nature like in olden times.
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Apr 04, 2008 5:32:38 AM CDT
"Living in tribes" is a pretty simplistic way to look at it
by theoneofblood
If there's one thing that's hampered any real discourse about statism and it's negative effects it's the annoying idiocy of the Primitivist movement.
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The only little"c"BraneRobot knows is his dick!BraneRobot is a fucking Fascist propaganda machine,he could be the son of Goebbels.
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Apr 04, 2008 7:31:16 AM CDT
breaking news: us senate elects aicn as new roster based prez!
by ironic_name
ya know, cause you guys have such important thoughts ad all.
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What happened yesterday?
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This assertion may shock many of you, but I believe it. Anyone who is absolutely convinced that their political beliefs are absolutely correct are idealists--for good or for bad.The fact is that left and right are limited terms to express political ideologies that are not nearly as at odds as some would lead you to believe. Both sides have been responsible for tyrannies and the death that goes with them. The ideologies themselves are not to blame--it is the leaders who use them to attain absolute control who are to blame.I'd be interested in having a discussion on specific issues. For instance, BR believes gay marriage should be legal (I do as well btw), which I find ironic considering his hatred of the "left." Myself, I could be described as socially liberal and fiscally a bit conservative. My guess is that if we all stopped talking in extremes and started talking specific issues, we'd find some things in common...
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You are making far too much sense, and may have tilted the axis of the planet. I mentioned earlier that labels hardly matter, and I would stipulate that what was once considered left is now right and vice versa. I think you are dead on with regards to him being an idelaogue. No less dangerous - perhaps moreso.
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Why aren't all of the people who are for this war over in Iraq fighting if it's such a worthy cause?
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"Read my lips."
"Wipe the drool." -
Apr 04, 2008 11:44:22 AM CDT
HOW CAN ANYONE BE CLUELESS ABOUT LITTLE 'C' CONSERVATIVES
by bringingsexyback
When it's just some shit you made up? I know a good corner in midtown where you can make some money entertaining the lunch crowds alongside the Black Israelites.
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Read the instructions!
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They don't want to die?
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"And if we are attacked we destroy the enemy. It's the American way."
So you are in agreement that the only valid retaliation for 9/11 was to attack the Taliban, with the goal of getting Bin Laden, and also to root out the cells in Saudi Arabia that were involved? Not just to annihilate all Muslims? -
I tried to turn the other cheek when you started attacking me with profanity. I did respond in kind once before, but I really tried not to do so again, not because I am above using profanity, but because I felt sorry for your pathetic, hog-shit eating, sewer slime living, retarded self. But you know what? Fuck it. You do not deserve an restraint on my part, you fuckwit. So lets go, but first, you have once again proven just how craven and brain dead you really are. When confronted with a truth you cannot refute, you simply refuse to answer the question and attempt to attack someone elses understandng, hoping to deflect from your own lack of knowledge. Will not work, you shit-lipped, camel-cunt eating, monkey fucker. You described what you consider to be liberalism and extremism on the left, and say categorically that the right and conservatives have no extremists. I have repeatedly ponted out the far right extremists such as Birchers and Posse commitatus, lets not even include Anarchists this time, who are a special class unto themselves,groups who share the exact same CONSERVATIVE views that you claim to espouse, groups that would claim to be and are in fact conservative. Groups that any rational person would acknowledge as CONSERVATIVE, but sense this would destroy any and all arguments you have made saying theer are no 'conservative extremists', you still do not answer the question. I willask it in a very simple manner so that you understand. Are John Birchers, Posse Commitatus and what the hell, Anarchists, liberal extremists? If they are not, then are they moderate extremists? if they are not then what are they? You tell me, what remains? You pig-fucker.
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LOL!
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Apr 04, 2008 12:18:17 PM CDT
EXACTLY. COMMUNISM HAS NEVER EXISTED ON NATIONAL SCALE.
by bringingsexyback
They are just labels used by regimes. But labels are holy scripture for little 'c' conservatives like Shit For Branes (TM) and MorbidFatfuck (TM). Despite being propagandists themselves, they can't wrap their brains around others' propaganda. Isn't it ironic?
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Apr 04, 2008 12:22:41 PM CDT
LOL! YOU BOTH CALLED HIM A PIG-FUCKER AT THE SAME TIME!
by bringingsexyback
Yes, he really is that obvious! OINK! WEEEEE!!!!
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Are you both products of public or private education? Your answer will help me form my opinion on the matter. Thank you.
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For an extra $1 she'll squeal like a pig. She calls it the Brane Special.
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That is why the dickless wonder known as Shit For Branes (TM), is so admamant about protecting his right flank. He is in the same boat as the most despicable, hated and reviled Muslim on planet earth! LOL That is what is known as irony! SFB (TM) and Osama been hidin, are ideological fuckmates! Now this is too rich.
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Apr 04, 2008 12:33:18 PM CDT
I FIND IT ODD HOW MORBIDOBESITY HATES PALESTINIANS SO MUCH
by bringingsexyback
When he has called Jews the "K" word himself. Is he just a troublemaker?
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Apr 04, 2008 12:38:37 PM CDT
LTTLE 'C' CONSERVATIVES BELIEVE IN LIMITED GOVERNMENT
by bringingsexyback
And Anarchists believe in ultra-limited government. Hence, Anarchists are ultra-conservative.
Whereas Liberals believe in a strong government to serve the people. Can you wrap your shit-covered brane around that? -
I know I'm stating the obvious, but still deserves to be said.
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Apr 04, 2008 12:41:45 PM CDT
BRANE - CAN YOU GO OVER THE MATHEMATICAL FORMULA FOR GENOCIDE AG
by bringingsexyback
I want to put it in a spreadsheet.
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Because the evangelicals are really good at picking people's pockets. That's why.
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You ignorant, stupid .. well, you know the rest.
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We wouldn't have had the Virginia Tech massacre? Remember that? Maybe make it a bit harder for psychos like yourselves to buy one?
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Apr 04, 2008 12:52:59 PM CDT
ACTUALLY GUN CONTROL ALLOWS LAW ABIDERS TO OWN A GUN
by bringingsexyback
and stops criminals from getting one. Your logic is totally dyslexic. Is your mother typing for you?
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and the guy got his gun(s) from the same store as the V Tech shooter. Maybe someone should shut down the store before another dozen people get killed? Just a thought!
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Not going to work. I never said because someone descibes themselves as one thing or another that they then are that thing. Of course you describe yourself as a conservative, and all of us accept that. Hmmm? So if Birchers who espouse and act like conservatives - albeit extreme ones - hence the label extremist, since they would describe themselves as very conservative, under your logic, they can not be. But since you decsribe yourself as a conservative, under your logic, you must be. Hmmm. So, just because you do not like someone describing and acting as conservatives, albeit extreme ones, they can not be conservative? Well, that makes sense. And yes, Osama is a conservative extremist. I did not say he was an American conservative. I said he was a conservative extremist. His views are considered conservative in the Islamic world - even for aSaudi, who are ultra conservative. He is an extremist. A conservative extremist. Something you said does not exist.
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Coming from the guy who thinks gun control is meant to give guns to criminals and prevent law abiders from having them.
Now how about you break down how much money is given to those Mega Churches, lining the pockets of those charlatans instead of feeding the poor and homeless? You got numbers, Einstein? Huh? -
He's pretty great.
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Apr 04, 2008 1:05:43 PM CDT
I THINK BRANE IS LOOKING AT WIKI FOR THOSE NUMBERS NOW
by bringingsexyback
Wiki is his best friend, next to MorbidFatfuck.
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I happen to agree that there are leftist scum out there just as there are rightist scum. No political/social/economic movement or structure is without it bad and very bad seeds. But you never want to acknowledge that the far right evens exists, let alone has bad seeds. Let me stipulatethat conservatives are not confined to the Republican party. There are all types of conservativs in this country. Moral.Social. Economic. On and on. I have no idea what a little c conservative is - please explain. But evil eixts on all sides of the spectrum, extremist exists on all sides of the spectrum, and when people like you refuse to accept that extremism exists on all sides of the spectrum, well then you see, you and i have a problem.
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WTF!
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Was White. Your thoughts?
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He bears no resemblance to any Liberals I know, that's for damned sure.
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Apr 04, 2008 1:42:49 PM CDT
DOES THAT EXCLUDE CASES WHERE A DAUGHTER LOOKS LIKE HAYDEN PANAT
by bringingsexyback
Just asking ...
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I blame the system that allows guns to fall into the hands of criminals and mentally unstable people. A thorough background checking system would ensure guns go to those who are least likely to use them for criminal actions.
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Apr 04, 2008 1:51:27 PM CDT
SO YOU'RE SAYING IT'S OKAY FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO GO POSTAL?
by bringingsexyback
That's wack!
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Pray tell?
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Fuck you. I got family in Alabama.
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They should've kept him chained in the basement, just like you, where he can only annoy people on the Net.
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Is that what you're saying? Parents have no responsibility for their children's actions?
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Apr 04, 2008 2:01:21 PM CDT
CAN YOU PROVIDE A LINK SHOWING HOW THE TEACHERS UNION
by bringingsexyback
intervened in the VT case and stopped them from putting Cho in a sanitarium? It seems like something I'd like to read up on. Thanks Brane.
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BRIAN:
Are you the Judean People's Front?
REG:
Fuck off!
BRIAN:
What?
REG:
Judean People's Front. We're the People's Front of Judea! Judean People's Front. Cawk.
FRANCIS:
Wankers.
BRIAN:
Can I... join your group?
REG:
No. Piss off.
BRIAN:
I didn't want to sell this stuff. It's only a job. I hate the Romans as much as anybody.
PEOPLE'S FRONT OF JUDEA:
Shhhh. Shhhh. Shhh. Shh. Shhhh.
REG:
Schtum.
JUDITH:
Are you sure?
BRIAN:
Oh, dead sure. I hate the Romans already.
REG:
Listen. If you really wanted to join the P.F.J., you'd have to really hate the Romans.
BRIAN:
I do!
REG:
Oh, yeah? How much?
BRIAN:
A lot!
REG:
Right. You're in. Listen. The only people we hate more than the Romans are the fucking Judean People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah...
JUDITH:
Splitters.
P.F.J.:
Splitters...
FRANCIS:
And the Judean Popular People's Front.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
LORETTA:
And the People's Front of Judea.
P.F.J.:
Yeah. Splitters. Splitters...
REG:
What?
LORETTA:
The People's Front of Judea. Splitters.
REG:
We're the People's Front of Judea!
LORETTA:
Oh. I thought we were the Popular Front.
REG:
People's Front! C-huh.
FRANCIS:
Whatever happened to the Popular Front, Reg?
REG:
He's over there.
P.F.J.:
Splitter!
GOLIATH:
[pant pant pant] Ooh. Ooh. I-- I think I'm about to have a... cardiac arrest. Ooh. Ooh.
SPECTATOR:
Absolutely dreadful. Hmm.
CROWD:
[cheering]
REG:
Yes, brother! Ha ha. What's your name?
BRIAN:
Brian. Brian Cohen.
REG:
We may have a little job for you, Brian. -
He's with the People's Front Of Judean Fronts For The People. Nice guy!
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Although mainstreams conservatives try to marginalize them - al'a (pun intended) SFB, Birchers are staunch conservatives, who along with BR, are strong beleivers in the cosntitution, limited gov't personal freedoms, no gun corntrol, getting out of the United natiosn, etc etc. Here is a nugget. "The John Birch Society endorses the timeless principles of the Declaration of Independence. The Society also labors to warn against and expose the forces that seek to abolish U.S. independence, build a world government, or otherwise undermine our personal liberties and national independence.The John Birch Society endorses the U.S. Constitution as the foundation of our national government, and works toward educating and activating Americans to abide by the original intent of the Founding Fathers"
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Apr 04, 2008 2:14:31 PM CDT
BRANE - I'M STILL WAITING FOR THAT TEACHER UNION LINK
by bringingsexyback
Don't forget me.
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Apr 04, 2008 2:16:41 PM CDT
BRANE - I'M STILL WAITING FOR THAT TEACHER UNION LINK
by bringingsexyback
Why are you teasing me like this?
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Apr 04, 2008 2:17:39 PM CDT
I CAN'T FIND IT, BUT YOU OBVIOUSLY HAVE THE INFORMATION
by bringingsexyback
otherwise you wouldn't have said it. So, I'd like you to give me the source of your information. Please.
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That is what SFB is advocating. The term "states' rights" has been used as a code word by defenders of segregation, and was the official name of the "Dixiecrat" party led by segregationist presidential candidate Strom Thurmond. George Wallace, the Alabama governor, who famously declared in his inaugural address, "Segregation now! Segregation tomorrow! Segregation forever!", later remarked that he should have said, "States' rights now! States' rights tomorrow! States' rights forever!" Your kind sickens me SFB, it really does. You give lip service to being part of some populist movement like Ron Paul (who is a nutjob of a different type). But when the onion is peeled, you are simply a, racist, genocidal, isolationist. And you can not see beyond your own idealogy.
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Apr 04, 2008 2:23:29 PM CDT
I CAN'T FIND ANY ARTICLE ON TEACHER'S UNION STOPPING VT
by bringingsexyback
from putting Cho in a sanitarium, yet this is a pretty big revelation, Brane. I'd really like to know where you got this information.
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Now he's squirmed away from the talkback. That's basically his pattern, huh. Just saying any lie that fits his agenda. Just like his misfit buddy MorbidFatfuck.
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I only posted what was on their website - which, in tone, seems is a reasonable conservative viewpoint. But when you dig deeper, into their history, and find out what they really have stood for - such as opposing the civil rights movement as unconstitutional, among other things, well, I think you would fit right in.
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Y'all rock.
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Apr 04, 2008 2:48:38 PM CDT
BRANE'S A LIAR WHO SLINKS AWAY LIKE A COWARD WHEN CAUGHT
by bringingsexyback
That is all.
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Apr 04, 2008 3:06:23 PM CDT
I wanted to say thanks to all who fought the good fight.
by toadkillerdog
This thread will probaly not survive the weekend, so, I wanted to commend all of the people who have 'fought the good fight' against the truly abhorrent and ignorant who troll this site from time to time, and who were on this thread. The honor roll in no particular order: Le Vicious Fichus, Docpazuzu, Node32772, Bringingsexyback, Mr Nice Gaius, theonefblood, Seph_J,Thuderbolt Ross, ebonic_plague, samsquanch. And any others I may have omitted, it was great 'being in the fox hole' with you. It is nice to know that there are decent people out there who will not countenance hatred and ignorance, even when it is couched in pseudo patriotism. I am quite sure that we will reunite on another thread because SFB and Morbid and others may slink away for a while, but some rock will get blown over exposing them to the light of day. Y'all have a great weekend!
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I had to laugh at the 'owned' comments. I mean really? You never refuted with any substantial evidence - other than a mindless rant, a single point I made. Not one. I and others exposed all of your lies and utter ridiculous points, over and over. It was funny how instead of refutation, you resorted to obfuscation and attack - empty attack at that. You had no answers to people who proved much smarter and more adept at countering your indefensible statements. It bears stating again, I feel sorry for you. It must be awful being someone like you. I am not talking about being reviled on this site as your are, because you could easily join a site that caters to your viewpoint. I am talking about what it must be like to wake up every day and just hate people for no apparent cause, simply because they are different. To hate what you can not control. To hold extreme viewpoints and lash out at others who do not share your point of view. To be closed minded. To constantly have to fight your way through life. Do you feel any joy at any time other than when you rant? That was a rhetorical question. I do not know your background, nor do I wish to. But I do feel sorry for you because if you have a job, and unless the company is owned by extremists, you probably have to bite your tongue and never discuss any of your viewpoints for fear of being ostracized and humiliated. To have to go through life so marginalized, and only having a forum like this to vent your rage? I feel for you. And you said yourself, you do not believe in God, so you cannot even pray for help - well you can pray, and God would help you, but you will not. I feel sorry for you. But perhaps you are a very wealthy person with no need for friends and family. Perhaps your life is just grand, and you only vent on this site for amusement, and not because you truly beleive any of the outrageous things you say. Perhaps. I still feel sorry for you, but I wil not allow that sorrow to excuse your abhorrent behavior.
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...and the rest of you glorious bastards who stood up to and soundly trounced these malevolent swine.
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if this is a stupid question, but who is SFB? I'm assuming it's not the initials of a moniker. Does it mean BraneRobot or Morbid or someone else?
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...is when he says "you condone the genocide of Christians!". He's been saying this thing for years, generally towards the end of a talkback when he starts to fall apart, but he has never actually qualified the remark in any way. It's an extremely bizarre non sequitur and I'm always on the lookout for it because it invariably means BraneRobot is at the end of his tether. He will limp away and resurface with a new name and when enough time has passed he'll once more try to float his ideological air biscuits of doom in a talkback with equally disastrous results.
See you guys then for another gut-ripping bayonet charge.
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As I've been lurking this talkback, enjoying the back and forth. However, I feel compelled to respond to BraneRobot's "analysis" of the constitutionality of Civil Rights legislation. First off, the 10th Amendment states, "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Ever hear of the Commerce Clause? Article 1, Section 8, Clause 2 of the US Constitution gives the Congress the power to regulate commerce among the States. Refer to the Heart of Atlanta Motel decision that definitively states that Congress acted within the scope of its Constitutional Powers in enacting Civil Rights legislation because discrimination necessarily affects commerce between the states. It is also widely accepted that the scope of powers reserved to the States under the 10th Amendment refer only to the police powers of that state, i.e. health & public safety. The past 60 years of Commerce and Dormant Commerce jurisprudence stand for that exact proposition. Echoing Justice Thomas' view on civil rights does not a constitutional scholar make. Even Scalia refers to that hack as a whack job and an extremist.
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BraneRobot--you are not a right-winger. You are a libertarian. As you know, there is a difference, so please stop this "leftist scum" nonsense. You have as much in common with the so called left as you do the right. Believe it or not, I do sympathize with some of your ideals. The type of conservatism you're in favor of is pretty scarce in this country these days. You favor isolationism (which has its charms) as well as classically liberal ideas about civil liberties (e.g., in favor of gay marriage). Essentially, you want government out of the individual's business. You favor small government, and I hear that. The reason I broke with the repubs back in the late nineties is that they betrayed these libertarian ideals and got in bed (in fact, were already in bed) with big corporate interests. Their hypocrisy sickened me (and continues to sicken me) more than anything the contemporary democrats do or say. Unfortunately, I realized some time ago that the libertarian view of the world is...well... idealistic in that the reality never lives up to the ideal (just like all of the isms out there). All we can do is try to keep the fuckers in power--left and right--in check. I'm curious, BR: what do you think about civil liberty issues?
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Libertarians really, really, fundamentally, dislike modern liberalism (thus, the Democratic Party). That's why they vote Republican while holding their noses.
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I now know for sure the major TB'ers in this TB, are still checking this TB. Who is SFB?
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to folks with libertarian sensibilities. They desire--and have attained--an incredible amount of control over our private information--shit they have no business knowing--all in the name of national security. This administration has done more harm to our constitutional rights than any US , federal administration in history. Wake up, guys.
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but if you're voting republican on a national level, you're likely having shit repeatedly sprayed in your face. These fuckers must be held in check by SOMEone, and it amazes me that so-called libertarians can defend what we've done since 9/11 just because they're brainwashed by their parents and their peers to trust the so-called right wing more than the left.
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I'm Libertarian, from a Libertarian area, and none of us give two shits about the warrentless wiretaps (aka, the intelligence branches recording communications involving suspected or known foreign terrorist operatives. What we (as in Libertarians) care about is the ever expanding size and role of the Federal government via the left's socialism.
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the Neo-cons piss me off... they piss me off so much. However, they pale in comparison to the Democrats' suggested policies.
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I'm definitely in favor. All of 'em.
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The republicans have you completely fooled, guys. Their policies are so anti-individual--pro-big business and, yes, pro-HUGE fucking centralized government. At one time you'd be right about dems, but now they don't hold a candle to the dumbfuck repub policies of our modern era in the USA.
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...to unite against: Hillary Clinton. Instead of fighting one another, they should join forces against that vile, pinwork which slithered out of Bill Clinton's ass, smelling like feces, and burn her like the witch that she is. Stomp her with our collective boot heels.
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on every level chill you to the bone? I mean, the guys in power right now really DO want to attain info and control over our private lives. To think otherwise is--imo--naive.
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abstaining fro voting doesn't affect anything. Shit, due to McCain-Fiengold, individual or a small groups can't even speak with their pocket books. The current system is: incumbents get a over 95% reelection rate, and can live off their "campaign contributions;" hence, their most important duty is to raise
"campaign contributions" rather than listen to their constituencies : campaign contributions= sweet ass Georgetown flat and private jet funds. -
I need to run, but it's amazing how issues can actually be discussed without name calling--even on points we disagree on. Take it easy, guys.
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I'm not going to defend the Republican Party, and I will join you in shitting all over the Neo-Cons, but the top Democrats seem to be straight up Socialists to me. However, I cannot vote for McCain (due to McCain-Feingold) regardless of how much the Dems scare me. I'll be voting Libertarian this election.
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Sorry dude, the Supreme Court actually said in Lopez and in Morrison that Congress could not use the Commerce Clause to ban guns at schools or to pass laws that contravene the police powers of the State. Don't believe me, read the cases. Scalia writes the opinion, you'll love it. As far as a limited Commerce Clause, please, that's an antiquated legal framework for interpreting the clause. Ever hear of the necessary & proper clause? Again, read the cases, don't listen to me, McCullogh v. Maryland. Ever since the beginning of the 20th century, legal scholars have agreed that the necessary & proper clause give the Congress the power to pass legislation necessary and proper to the regulation of Commerce. Additionally, your federalist argument is historically inaccurate. Madison supported a strong federal government and said so quite frequently.
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oh god...
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But, Madison wrote the federalist papers, which you were citing as a source for your argument about federalism. For sure, the Constitution is not antiquated, never said it was. However, I do believe that it is necessarily ambiguous and at times Courts must look beyond the words to see the intent. And hey, I went to Law School too, and practice, and I don't believe that I'm a scumbag. Don't name call, man, if Scalia & Breyer can be civil, can't two people on a talkback?
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what, too soon?
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Jesus people, Anarchists are by definition radicals who want to dismantle the centralised state and bring about a society of interlinked directly democratic self-governing communities. That means no national gun control, no national abortion laws, no national welfare system, no national ANYTHING! Anarchists believe in the complete destruction of the idea of a nation! We believe that the idea of the nation state has caused massive harm to millions of people and that the abstraction and delegation of power through the retarded "representative" democratic system leads to corrupt motherfuckers who do not understand and can't attend to the local concerns of their comminities because they've got 300 million people to consider! It's impossible for Anarchists to be conservatives because conservatives are by their very nature moralistic, pro limited-state and most importantly, believe in a "conservative" approach to governance, with reform or change happening slowly or not at all.
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I was just getting ready for bed, and perused this talkback. Yes, i am the one who insinuated that anarchists were the most right wing of them all. And yes you are quite correct that they [you] are not. I was basing my statement on faulty logic. Mea culpa. I have since done more research on the topic and have concluded that anarchy can not truly be classified under the left-right model. And actually, that is a good thing - because we [I] need to be reminded that categorization is limiting.
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I think you may be correct.
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If I recall, you are an Aussie. What you described as anarchism is the American Founding Father's idea of America. However, I got to admit: in the words of the late, great, Col. Sanders... I'm too drunk to taste this chicken. Night.
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The Founding Fathers of the USA were by and large Liberal Democrats, not Anarchists. They believed in limited government and states rights. Anarchists believe in no central state at all, be it state or federal. One of the key ideals of Jefferson, Franklin et al was representative democratic governance, which all Anarchists strongly oppose.
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That's funny since the party didn't exist back then.
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Re: States' rights: I'd agree the federal government is too big and powerful, but this idea that because it's called the United States means States' rights should be first and foremost is a little silly. That's just not the way it's set up; we learned this in the 6th grade. And good thing it's not: Leaving such issues as abortion and gun control ENTIRELY up to the states would make the "United" part of our nation's name awfully difficult to live up to. Look how dysfunctional we are even now with a strong central government? This isn't the EU, and it never will be - thankfully.
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The party didn't exist then, but all the founding fathers were definately Classical Liberals and all of them were definately believers in representative democracy. I think it's fair to call them Liberal Democrats. I'm talking purely in politics terms here, not party affiliation.
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With regards to Anarchy, it boils down to the same thing that destroyed Communism and Utopianism, people just are not that selfless, nor should they be. For communism or utopianism (Let's just call it what it really is Star Trek - federationism)to work, then everyone must suborn their own objectives to and for the betterment of others. Human beings are not built that way. Incentive to achieve is destroyed, the will to accomplish is wiped out for the greater good, but even moreso, human nature takes over, because there will always be pwople who crave power. And those in power, do not feel the need to sacrifice for the greater good - that is what the 'proletariat' is for. Anarchy, wants to eliminate all sense of Nation, and have little ad hoc communities run the show. While this may work in very, very small scale, closed societies, it would be impossible in large scale environments because human nature would once again take over. Someone, or a group of someones would want power. And once they had attained power, they would want more. How to get it? Attack your neighbor and take it. And what happens after you consolidate power? You want to keep it, and a government is formed. Dictatorship, or other, it would still be the end of anarchy. Now, lets draw the analogy to include states rights. If a strong central gov't did not exist, and laws were passed in one state that would be illegal or ignored in the next - and this has happened in the recent past, then what would prevent the nation from dissolving? If one state said minorities of any type, can not drive in this state, or vote,or inter-marry, or live in certain communities, what would prevent them? And that has happened in the recent past. If one state covets the land or resources of another, what is to prevent it from taking it? Do all of he national guard units become the private armies of states (ok I realize this is getting extreme, but when you extrapolate just what states rights can lead to it really is not). Of course anarchists would advocate for states rights, because if a national gov't did not exist, and the states could make up any laws they wanted, the former nation would descen into anarchy. But how long would it last? Georgia and Alabama and Tennesee and Florida are wrangling over water rights now. What if Georgia decided to just annex part of Florida? No, in order for such things as anarchy, communism, and to some degree, states rights,to succeed, it requires people to act against their nature, that is, to be selfless. To not pass laws that discriminate, to not covet thy neighbors resources, to not covet power and money. In short, they are all pipe dreams. Or, and the more sinister and cynical aspect is, that those who support such things as states rights, really do want to have the power to discriminate and marginalize minorities. Those who advocate anarchy, really do want the world to descend into chaos. And those who support communism, really do want a defeated, demoralized, and easily brainwashed society of human robots.
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So you don't pay attention to the NUMBER 2 talkback of the day? The one you spent the last week posting on? Riiight. You must be the only "sane talkbacker" here, misfit. Because I didn't see you post anywhere else either. And nice ploy posting to me hours after I leave. Unlike you, I actually go out on Friday nights.
You know what's more likely the reason for your absence yesterday is you ran out of ways to regurgitate your posts, or that you suddenly found yourself an inferior debater to even the lowly AnimalBrane. And you simply had no way of salvaging that reputation you're so desperately trying to build on the Talkbacks. I'm sorry real life turned out so tragically pathetic for you, but it looks like the Net's no different. But don't fret. Maybe you can try another site to start over fresh? Take some lessons from this TB and don't repeat the same mistakes. One of which is thinking you've got something worth saying.
You should also take AnimalBrane with you. Even though he's superior to you, and because he finds it lonely around here, he holds you in some kind regard, so take advantage. Luckily he gave up on what might have been a lucrative career as an ambulance chaser to spew genocidal hate rants on the Talkbacks. If any college kid wanted to convince their parents that Law School is not an ideal place, all they have to do is show them Brane's posts.
Glad you mentioned that "African-American shoe shine" comment you attributed to me, misfit. We all know you hate both the Palestinians and the Israelis, and you're just trying to stir up some shit around here. So I'll tell you what. Since you lobbed the first stone, you show me where I told an African-American Talkbacker to shine my shoes, and I'll tell you where you called Jews the K word. We'll trade links. Fair enough?
Now I'm going out for dinner and a movie, so don't think I'm bailing on you by not responding immediately. It is Saturday night after all, and the rest of us have lives. Have fun roaming all the other Talkbacks by yourself, misfit. -
I wanted to thank you for placing me amongst the esteemed Talkbackers here who really elevated the conversation, but I don't belong on that list. You guys really rocked. I want to make a special mention of the good DocPazuzu. Only a week ago I was calling him a rat bastard and now I have utter respect for him. Doc, you can continue hating me but I do want to say you rocked this place along with everyone else. Great show.
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It's a political party. I'm not disagreeing with your point - not here anyway - but why call them Democrats when they weren't? You're just taking away from your overall theme. Say they're "Classical Liberals" all you want; that'll get you enough argument as it is.
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The Founding Fathers would have been completely disgusted by Modern Liberalism. Modern Liberals (by their talking points) turn their backs on everything that has made America great. Modern Liberals are socialists who (by their ideology) hate everything that put present-day America where it is. True, there's alot to hate about present-day America... but by their politics America should be some Ayn Rand nightmare, plus racial warfare.
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by Ayn Rand nightmare... I mean a nightmare that Ayn Rand might have had.
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equals libertarians... not Democrats
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Not a kid, just have a life. So, to it quickly, Brane, as you said yourself, states could legalize gay marriage and that would be fine with you. But what about states that outlawed gau marriage? What if gays wanted to live in that state that outlawed it? Wold they be arrested, fined, kicked out of the state? You say you do not beleive in God. What of you lived in a state that made it a requirement to sau the pledge everday? Would you just skip the 'Unto God' part? What if they made it illegal to do so? The FREE and uninterrupted ability to crss state lines and not be harrased or jailed because what ois legal in one state is illegal in another, is why a strong central govt. is needed. And it was NOT that long ago that states discriminated, 1960's not that long ago. Desegregation in the 1970's and busing ring a bell?
I may agree with all of the federal govt, but I would never agree to live in a 'country' where the states could dictate who i could marry, where i could live, what i can buy, how i must pray. No, stats rights are not freedom. And i never said people who believe in states rights believd in slavery - was that a freudian slip on your part? I'm out of here, if this talkback exists on Sunday, or monday - i will be shocked, but who knows. -
Should have said 'I may not agree with all of the federal govt'
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the 60's was VERY long ago. Among the "youth" of today, you are talking about the "youths'" grandparents' (in their youth) by bringing up the 60's. BTW... there are no positive feelings about the baby boomers to be found outside of those asshole baby boomers themselves.
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You're talking about Critch? I barely ever talked to the guy, and I don't have a clue as to his ethnic background. You must have me confused with something someone said in one of those "chatrooms" you like to frequent on Friday and Saturday nights. You know, when the kids don't have to do homework? You freak.
Anyway, you don't seem to understand the terms of the deal. They're quite simple, so let me restate them plainly. Now pay attention.
You made an accusation against me first. If you want my link, it falls upon you to present your evidence first. Simple enough?
Try Google. Try searching on "Bringingsexyback Critch shine shoe" or even "Bringingsexyback shine shoe" to see if it's anyone else. If you have any difficulties using it you can ask one of those kids you're chatting with right now. Freak.
Don't take too long, either. My interest in talking to you is fading real fast. -
I doubt anyone will come back to this talkback now that it's off the main page but I just can't resist clearing up a few things.
Firstly: I think you're still misinterpreting what I'm saying Stevie. There's an ocean of difference between Classical Liberals and what you people in the USA would call liberals today. Haven't any of you people read your Locke? In a very real sense, if you asked Jefferson, Adams, Paine, Franklin, Washington etc what they were, they would tell you Liberals. If you asked what form of governance they'd like, their answer would invariably be "A Democratic Republic". Now there have been republics before, such as Ancient Rome, but they were oppressive and fucking horribly corrupt, so the key difference here is the word "democratic". Hence, the founding fathers of your country were Liberal Democrats. That is both a politically and historically accurate description. I'm not going to get into a massive debate about the merits of Anarchism with you guys because this is a movie talkback and hardly the place for it but I will say a few parting comments. Anarchism has existed before and it was extremely successful. The problem you guys and many others seem to have with it is that you don't trust the other person. Which is sort of fair seeing as every successful Anarchic Society has been brutally crushed by the State. Think about how quickly we associate chaos and anarchy these days when they are completly different concepts. Anarchists believe in confederated self governance, with an interlinked directly democratic power structure. As to your questions reffering to "what about some evil dictatorship", well this is where Anarchists come against gun control. We don't believe in the state holding a monopoly on self-defence and violence. To put it bluntly, if some motherfuckers tried to oppress us again we'd form a confederated militia based on a delegated leadership structure. Every citizen would be armed and would know how to defend themselves. People often say how hard it would to be conquer the US because you're all armed to to the teeth, well imagine if literally EVERYONE had a means to fight. Conflict could still happen but with people fighting directly for their homeland it'd be a fucking nightmare for an invading army. There'd be no leadership to cow or decapitate, every citizen would be a leader. This is one of the hardest concepts to express but Anarchism is all about taking responsibility and being an educated, creative and free citizen who can look after themselves without relying on some dude in a blue or green suit. We believe that freedom, independence and community are the cornerstones of a fruitful and rewarding human existence. As to people who crave power with no consideration to others, (ie psychopaths) this is something which is still deabted in Anarchist circles but the broad consensus is that in an educated and self-managing society would be very difficult to hold any power over anyone. People would be entirely free to associate, form collectives or syndicates, all holding the exact same power which directly deals with their local surroundings, I can imagine somebody trying to dominante others would have a hard time of it without the ability to bribe or threaten. Even if they were an extremely charismatic speaker (which btw most psychopaths aren't, history's just marred by one or two of them, both of which had brute force behind them and an extremely hieracical structure), what would they seriously do? The communities by and large would not be bigger than 130 people (that's not an arbitrary number btw, it's been scientifically proven that human being literally cannot feel empathy for more than 130, but I'm not going to get into The Savannah Theory), people would be managing their own affairs and would hardly take kindly to some asshole saying he could do it better. Just a amsall point on top of that, whilt most of us don't believe in the prison system and much prefer a mixture of rehabilitation and direct mediated interface between the perpetrator and their victems, we are not blind to the Jeffery Dhamers of the world, these people would be identified thanks to both the vast shared information between groups and the size of communities where everyone would know everyone else, and hence marked and ostracised. A final point on your insistence that things would not improve, that's frankly nonsense, people do not need incentives of money to do what they want to do. In fact, there have been numerous clinical trials which suggest that the reward system actually HINDERS creativity and invention. Basically, because people feel obligated to do something rather than just doing it because they want to, the quality of work decreases as does the output. I hate to be a historical wanker, but if you look at the Spanish experiment, there was a massive increase in productivity, efficiency and innovation under Anarcho-Syndicalism. People found new ways of growing crops, new methods of irrigation, transport routes were more effective and there are many other examples of the literal explosion of creative activity which took place following people's self-liberation. Keeping in mind that the Anarchists were also deeply embroiled in a two-way war against the Communists and the Fascists this is an amazing achievement. Anarchism is not a Utopian vision, it has existed before and it will again. Seriously we don't kid ourselves that they have some perfect system and everyone will live in a magical happy land, what we do believe is that we can do better than what we have now. That the systems we operate in now are not the most logical or practical and are in fact very responsible for amplifying and rewarding our worst traits. -
I have resigned myself to the fact that I probably won't see Anarchism in my lifetime, but I'll do everything I can to educate and empower people so one day they can make the decision to become masters of their own lives. There are more of us than you think, all silently toiling to give people the means to self-determination. The Environmental Movement and many of the Charity-Aid programs are particuarly infested. We won't directly say what we are because there's so much bad mojo associated with the word "anarchy", but a rose by any other name...
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Apr 06, 2008 1:16:06 AM CDT
In fact, while it's pretty darn Machieavellian to say this
by theoneofblood
Global Warming has been one of the greatest boons for the Anarachist community. How's that for evil?
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In an attempt to swiftboat me, Morbidobesity accused me of making a racist comment to an unidentified African-American talkbacker by telling him to 'shine my shoes.' When challenged to provide proof of this alleged comment, Morbidobesity made a vague reference to some random talkbacker and tried to maneuver his way out. I then launched a battery of photon torpedoes into the heart of his position by PROVIDING HIM the means to search out proof of his smear. It is at this point his obvious lie was thoroughly exposed and he suffered an irreparable breach in the hull of his character. Crippled, battered, shamed, humiliated, and utterly defenseless, the enemy now seeks to drift out of the quadrant. It is only through the kindness of my Liberal heart that I allow him to survive instead of delivering the fatal blow. Let this be a lesson for Morbid so that he never attempts to launch a smear attack on any talkbacker, and be a lesson one his mother should have taught him herself: do not lie, because you'll always get caught. Ownage completed. Returning to Starbase AICN.
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Look. We know your love for Morbidobesity knows no bounds. But if you followed the conversation, you'll see that your buttfuck buddy got royally fucked owned. Morbidobesity lied, and his reputation died. LOOOOOOOL!!!!!
Anyway, you're stupid, so I forgive your failure to understand. -
That is all!!!
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That is all!!!
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That is all!!!
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That is all!!!
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That is all!!!
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That is all!!!
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Morbid Lied And Truth Died. NUFF SAID.
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Morbid Lied And Truth Died. NUFF SAID.
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That's great! It's a good one.
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Thank you, BSB. May I add that's a very cool jacket you've got on.
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Crushed to death by a bulldozer for trying to stop the destruction of a home. Yeah, not much to be a fan of there. Morbid also liked the Nazis' methods too. I'm sure he's a big fan of Goebbels. Even though he was a Socialist. OWNED!
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Nice diversionary attempt, but I've yet to see that 'shoe shine' post you so confidently attributed to me. Wherever can it be? Systems critical, Morbid. Time for evasive action?
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So you say you brought up the "shoe shine" slur as an ... example? Try a falsehood, a lie, one you thought you could pass off without notice. Such a smear, ironically (or not so), from someone whose own prejudices run deep, enough to slur a people by parenthesizing their name, denying their past and historical claims. Shades of a Holocaust denier, perhaps? How else to describe your advocating democide if not to compare to the Nazis' methods? The only difference is the Nazis were brutally honest with those methods. As effective a propagandist Goebbels was, even he was unable to convince the world that those they slaughtered were the villains.
Back to you, misfit. Now it's getting interesting again. -
Let's see. What constitutes a worse offense? A slur, or the advocation of democide? If you'd scroll up this very talkback, you can see very well where I pointed to you and your BFF AnimalBrane as supporters of democide. Am I getting "dramatic" about the Palestinian question? Not nearly as dramatic as you and your shoe shine/kike ploy. And yet again, o renowned regurgitator, read my last post about your affinity for Nazi methods. Or perhaps I should say, "I have every reason to believe" in your affinity for Nazi methods.
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about democide. Nor did your darling AnimalBrane. I suppose it's perfectly fitting for someone so disingenuously outraged by slurs, even to make up some of his own as "examples", to dismiss real acts of murder and genocide.
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Nazi pig fucker you say? Clever! Took you hours to come up with that brilliant slur, did it? How sweet to come to your pal's defense. Which "conquerers" are you referring to, by the way? Regale us with your vast array of Promised Land tales. I'm ... interested! Really!
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They invented gotham_night.
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"We can debate the Palestinian cause when Moriarty wrotes up a fawning Arafat documentary." Really? It seems pretty appropriate in this Jimmy Carter Talkback. And as surely as you concede about lying about my denigrating an African-American talkbacker, I will concede being hyperbolic in asserting that you outright advocating democide or using Nazi methods. But there are subtler ways to support, or even just to condone it. So no, you don't outright support it, but neither do you condemn the methods beings used against them - which are heinous, one of which is the razing of farms and homes, which you alluded to with a flippant Rachel Corrie reference, which is offensive, but you already know that. I will credit you for being more reserved than AnimalBrane, or myself, in fact. So yes, I regret and apologize for using that slur as a joke in that old talkback - but nothing else. Hell, I get called a Jew-hater and Hamas supporter just for defending Palestinians and Jimmy Carter, so it's not like there aren't other ways of earning such praise. I earlier excluded myself from a list of esteemed talkbackers here because they didn't feel the need to make a point by ranting. Like I said, it was more than an 'A' game - it was brilliance beyond expectations. I personally saw that as a point well taken and lesson learned.
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I was joking about Reverend Wright being a conservative. He's an ultra-left extremist and of a variety that pushed me more towards the Center in recent years. Which is why I know his radical views don't necessarily reflect on Obama. All indications are that Obama is not nearly as guilty by association than others wish. I'd listened to talk about reparations for years until the Iraq War got much worse, and as far as I know, the talk died out.
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Apr 07, 2008 8:38:31 AM CDT
I'M SURE YOUR RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION IS NOT FAKE AT ALL
by bringingsexyback
and typing the word Kike gives you no great pleasure. Such sincere outrage against prejudice from someone who masks his own so well.
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You mean to curb my defense of Palestinians, then have fun pasting the link.
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Appreciate it, but don't bother. I'm actually liking his feigned outrage and seeing how far it can be taken.
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are the equivalent of Atlanteans, or in fact don't exist? Surely there's no racism behind those assertions.
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Morbid's gonna love this post.
First let me say I appreciate your acknowledging the condition of Palestinians and Israeli Arabs living within Israel. Second-class citizenship does not equate to democracy.
You'll recall our very first meeting years ago when I joined up in the WTC Talkbacks. I'm sure there are quite a few people from that time just waiting for me to resurrect the term "Zionazi" (like that one, Morbid?) or to go on a rant against Zionism. Well, I remember some discussions since about Zionism and Eretz Israel (something you pointed out more than a few times) that actually led me to do more reading. Before, I viewed Zionism as strictly a racist, fascistic movement towards Palestinians with the goal of total democide. I subscribed - seriously, no joke - to the writings of Neturei Karta. But discussions I was involved in here, or read here, helped me to disassociate the term from the fringe movements like the NeoCons. Or the racist elements of Israel's ultra-right.
That was what was in the back of my mind when earlier in this very Talkback, I said "I've toned down my rhetoric quite a bit myself." You are right in that radicalism feeds the hate. But it appears on both sides. That's why I'd since taken a stance that both should acknowledge and address the other's claims and rights. The Palestinians are not maladjusted children - they are a subjugated people caught between radical forces on both sides of the conflict. If the two sides were ever to enact a peace plan, imagine the void of underlying conflict that would otherwise have fed this hatred of Israel. -
Something called work prevents some of us from posting here 24/7. Or do you proclaim that as some kind of victory, too?
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Apr 07, 2008 12:11:51 PM CDT
SO NOW THE PALESTINIANS OUGHT TO DIE BECAUSE OF SURVIVAL OF THE
by bringingsexyback
How does that explain your continued existence, Shit For Branes? Perhaps the Palestinians are prove the opposite of Darwin's theory, because for a people living in refugee camp squalor and periodically having food and medicines withheld, they sure are proving themselves resilient in their desire to survive.
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Think about what you just said "...all I said was that according to Darwinian theory, the Israelis are more fit, and therefore, more qualified to continued existence."
The Jews, who were almost wiped out of existence because they were 'not fit to survive' in Germany, and you dare you use a Darwinian model (and a truly flawed interpretation of one as well) to explain how, now the should employ and or benefot from the same thinking/actions? Do you even think before you start typing? What the hell do you think the Nazis did to the Jews? The genocide of the Jews in Nazi Germany falls exactly into the darwinian theory you seem to think ought to apply to the Palestinians. Was it right to destroy the Jews because they were not the 'fittest'? That is reprehensible. -
A cynic might think that you did so, and hid under the 'liberals like darwin' mantra only because you yourself supported the idea of darwinism. A cynic might look at your posts and read all manner of support for darwinism. You said "..See how they started foaming at the mouth when you dared to apply Darwin to a real world situation?" Who is the 'you' that you are referring to? What that just a typo? Because you are the 'you' who introduced Darwin. A cynic might think you were caught supporting the indefensible and decided to try and act as if you were opposed to darwin all along - even though you brought it up - and seemed to support it. A cynic might thing that. Good thing I am not cynical.
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Question: Why do checkpoints exist (don't they cost money to maintain)? Did they exist before the Intifada? Ditto the wall.
Is every Jewish resident of the West bank who owns a weapon "paramilitary"? If he moves to Tel Aviv, is he still "paramilitary"? Why do you put "terrorist" in quotes? There may be terrible collateral damage in Israeli bombings, but there are plenty of individuals who attack civilians living in Gaza. -
Do you beleive that the Nazis were 'justified' to apply social Darwinism to the Jews?
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According the UN, etc. all Jewish settlement in lands won by Israel in 1967 is "illegal" so according to your reasoning just about any Jewish person living there in the possession of a weapon would be a member of a "paramiltary" force.
Obviously not every Israeli settler is "paramilitary". Just the ones organized in bands tryign to settle illegally according to the Geneva convention. I recognize the fact that there are atatcks by Arabs against Jews and those individuals and groups should be held accountable, but firing cruise missles into neighborhoods where "suspected terrorists" are isn't a justifiable way to bring those people to justice whether it's an accurate strike or not. -
Can't imagine having your kind of life though, Morbid. The kind where you get to stay home on Friday and Saturday nights, and go to a movie on Monday afternoon. You're quite the social animal. Thanks for thinking of me too - good to know I'm in your thoughts.
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I accidentally cut and pasted part of the post I was responding to.
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Way to set back skywalkerfamily 100 years.
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LOL! When last I posted a few days ago the discourse in the TB had actually become thoughtful and civil. Brane, I can't believe you're still on the absurd "libs are evil" train. Seriously, are you putting us all on? If not, what a waste of a legitimately fine intellect. You undercut your often impressive knowledge and logic when you continue to repeat the "all liberals are…" or "every Palestinian is…" mantra. I KNOW you know better than to write in these kind of extremes. Intellectually speaking, it’s a rookie move. I had hoped you were too intelligent and educated to reason in such a limited, simplistic fashion--and I still have some hope you're just exaggerating for effect (i.e., simply baiting the opposition). OTOH, if you truly ARE as short-sighted as you appear to be on this TB, then you are simply one of that rarest breed: a truly intelligent but shockingly myopic thinker. Say it ain't so, Brane! The most extreme of your stances are chiefly hyperbole, right? Right? BTW, I wouldn't have wasted so much time responding to you today if I didn't think some of your more rational thinking and some of your less strident points here and there were valid ones.
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YOUR GETTING YOUR FAGGOTTY ASS HANDED TO YOU BE A DUDE WHO'S TYPING IN A SECOND LANGUAGE. YOU'RE FUCKING DUMB ASS, SHOUDN'T YOU TRY TO HIDE BEHIND ALL OF YOUR FUCKING QUEER ASS HANDLES YOU SNITCHING FAT CORN HOLE. OPEN YOUR MOUTH FUCKSUCK I'M SHITTING IN YOUR MOUTH AGAIN, SO EAT THE PEANUTS OUT MY SHIT CUNT. WHY DON'T YOU DO THIS CANDY BOY, PUT DOWN THE COCK AND THE GOVERMENT CHEESE YOU. SHIFTLESS, WELFARE QUEEN BE A MAN AND GET A JOB ANY JOB YOU WELFARE CHEAT GOVERMENT CHEESE EATING CUMSTAIN TWAT SPERMAHOLIC. KILL YOURSELF NOW YOU WORTHLESS PRICK. YOU'RE FIVE POUNDS OF SHIT SHOVED INTO A THREE POUND BAG. I HOPE THE CANCER OF THE PRICK YOU HAVE GOES MALIGNANT.NODE IS A FUCKING CHOAD.
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Apr 07, 2008 5:46:56 PM CDT
"Hence, the founding fathers of your country were Liberal Democr
by thunderbolt ross
LOL - Would you please stop it? Democrats means a political party. They weren't in or of it. End of story.
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Remember those days when people were insisting the Nazis were socialists? Then someone piped up saying if that's the case then FDR was a straight-up Commie Pinko? Good times.
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"and racist so...." So ... what?Fun fact: Though most Jews are liberals, they support genocide against themselves. (It's complicated.)
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I'm sure you'd love for every Jew to share your genocidal bloodlust but the fact that they don't is what's keeping Israel/Palestine from going full boil. Maybe Morbidobesity can take up arms with you. He's proven himself quite the friend of the cause.
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but glad to oblige you anyway. Maybe I was a bit wrong about the Nazi methods - apples to bananas sort of thing - but perhaps you can share with me your opinion on the methods actually used on Palestinians? I'm sure you're well versed on the history. Good, bad, not so interested perhaps? I'm looking forward to reading it - but good news, I just got my Netflix of Jimmy Carter Man Of Plains. Maybe we can talk about apartheid when I come back?
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So let me guess, Brane, regarding the Holocaust: The Jews brought it on themselves with their "stinkin' thinkin'"? You're a real piece of work.
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But the apartheid discussion will have to wait until tomorrow. Forgot it was Dancing With The Stars Night in the BSB household, and nothing, not Jimmy, the Jews or the Palestinians can keep me away. And Bruno just called Jason Taylor a "Majestic Swan". And you know what? That's exactly what I thought too. Great, great show.
I'm a bit disappointed with you though. Seriously I don't want the Morbid's Israel/Palestine for Dummies version, I want a thoughtful opinion from you. Crazed bloodlust: Good / Bad? Rachel Corrie: Humanitarian or Worthless Bulldozer Fodder? I don't know who The Kinks are. Is that a Middle Eastern band? -
I think it takes place in Argentina. That's where all the Nazis went. Also to Area 51, but you didn't hear that from me ...
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Apr 07, 2008 9:00:56 PM CDT
EXCUSE ME, BRANE, BUT YOU WEREN'T ARGUING WITH SCHMUCKS
by bringingsexyback
You had some heavy hittin' mo' fuckas who were at the top of their game. But really good to see you turn over a new leaf. Nice moment there I know I'll cherish.
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Carry on. Keep it goin', BSB, Morbid, Gotham and da gang!
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How's suit and tie treating you? You can always call the battered women's hotline for help. Don't be ashamed.
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Talk about heavy hittin' .. what's up?
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Mondays: Dancing With The Stars
Tuesdays: DWTS: The Results Show
Wednesdays: Top Chef
Thursdays: Young Aryans Society
Fridays and Saturdays: Dinner out (unlike Morbid who stays home for fear of eye-to-eye contact)
Sundays: Thanking God for AICN day -
Want another leaf? I got some here I don't need.
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and see what the shitstorm's about.
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Maybe I should order the Blu-Ray version. Nothing better than Jimmy Carter in hi-def.
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YOU BALLLESS CUNT OF A SHITSTAIN TURD EATING WHORE. BECUASE YOUR MOTHER ATE THEM WHEN YOUR A BABY CUZ SHE WAS HUNGRY GFOR NUTS AND YOUR UNCLE WASNT HOME. YOU SNITCH YOU FUCK EAT MY SHIT.
I know that's not as good as suit and tie, but know what? That takes some effort. Props to suit. -
He's such a sweet man. Must take a real fucking asshole to hate on him.
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And shuck your nuts before you cry suit and tie.
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Are you even sane?
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I think he'd appreciate what Jimmy actually said, instead of what everyone thinks he said. So far a thumbs up from me, Morby.
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That's Morbie's favorite night out. Maybe he's gone to see the Kinks at Sun City, wherever that is.
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Or shall I say "Busty Chick". Zing!
(((((Ding))))) -
It's really good. So far it's 2 thumbs up from me.
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DUM DEE DOO DARH DAY!
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Don't you hear the yelps upstairs?
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Why don't you post it at the beginning of every talkback so we can talk about your father instead? It could be the new FIRST!
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""Read my lips.""
Get it, Morbie? LOL! -
You don't know me well enough.
GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!! -
It seems President Carter has a lil crush on Tavis Smiley's makeup lady! So far 3 thumbs up from me!
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You must come across some pretty big nuts, Gotham.
BWAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAAHAHAHAAAA!!! -
I'd rather be out partying at the Kinks concert like Morbid, but I do have to work tomorrow.
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Is "spilt some rice" slang for anal sex?
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I don't watch Discovery much but I did catch a show on modern Japanese architecture on it over the weekend. You're not as much of a fucknut turdbag as I thought, Gotham.
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He would've turned that Brandeis event into a circus. As it was, it was smart and enlightening. So far, 4 thumbs up from me.
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Apr 08, 2008 12:23:40 AM CDT
JIMMY LIVES IN A SMALL MODEST HOUSE AND FLIES COACH
by bringingsexyback
You know, if Jesus lived and preached today, I'm sure he would've been crucified all the same.
All 5 thumbs up. Great documentary. -
Apr 08, 2008 12:27:49 AM CDT
I DON'T KNOW, MAYBE WE'LL FIND OUT IN THE SPECIAL FEATURES.
by bringingsexyback
Lemme check.
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Apr 08, 2008 12:29:36 AM CDT
JIMMY SAID HE SAW MORBIDOBESITY AT ONE OF THE PROTESTS
by bringingsexyback
Making the "quoting finger gesture". That's pretty funny.
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warning us to protect our democracy and not let tyranny rise from under us unsuspected. And he thinks Natalie Portman is "a doll".
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I "hope" Morbie had a "good" time at the "Kinks" concert.
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Jeebers. This is the international legal definition of genocide from the 1948 Convention on the Prevention of Genocide. Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide: 1) the mental element, meaning the "intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such", and
2) the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called "genocide." Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity. Excerpt from the Convention on the Prevention and
Punishment of Genocide. "Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Article III: The following acts shall be punishable: (a) Genocide; (b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide; (d) Attempt to commit genocide; (e) Complicity in genocide. "
So, BraneRobot, does that example you gave contitute genocide? Legally, I guess it would. But that is a kind of a worthless hypothetical. A more useful, real world question would be did Slobodan Milosevic commit genocide, according to this definition. We know there was an effort to eliminate the Bosnian Muslim CIVILIAN population from parts of the country. There were thousands of deaths, hundreds of thousands of deportations, and other atrocities like rape. The trial was never finished because he died in prison. You say that his actions were an act of war, others have posited that they were an act of genocide. It satisfies me to call it genocide. It doesn't to you. In either case, let's all agree that it was a horrible event and that it shouldn't have happened and it should have been prevented. BraneRobot, after reading through your posts I see that you share libertarian values (you call it "conservative with a little 'c'". You claim that what you believe is true conservatism and point to Ron Paul, thereby providing yourself with an escape clause from acknowledging that conservative Republicans can become radicalized. That's fine, I guess. I also tell myself that a true Christian wouldn't rape little boys or hate gays or get off on war. But the truth is I'm in denial. Because if I take that idea far enough, the only true Christian was Christ himself. In any event, I feel like you have to accept (at least intellectually) that there are variations of conservatism and that each variation believes themselves to be "true conservatives." This was a discussion of whether the Nazis were leftist extremists. Ultimately, does it matter? Extremism, Facism, Nazism, we all recognize these -isms as evil. In my opinion, they transgress party lines and boil down to something else: ultimate power. The opposite of ultimate power is ultimate freedom and when I think of that, I think of anarchists. Anyways, this was kind of a discussion where labels blinded everyone from seeing the common ground. By the way, I hate sweeping generalizations. From both sides of the aisle. And for the most part, except when I'm fighting with JeffAlbertson, I think name-calling is boring and lazy. That's all I got for now. -
But was dismayed when I entered this TB to find out he hated Jews.
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I think that priest pedophiles, Fred Phelps, and Conquistadors are all scumbags. My point was that they are Christan scumbags, and I have to accept that.
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Maybe you're right about [some] liberals propping up [some] groups as victims in order to acheive short term political game. But to call all liberals that is just patently untrue, in the same way some have made sweeping generalizations about "conservative fucks". There are many liberals who actually believe in tolerance and equal rights for minorities and disaffected groups. I'm sure there are many conservatives who believe this is as well. It crosses party lines. The man just wants us to fight with each other.
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DUMB MOTHERFUCKING COCKSUCKER. CALLING ME A NAZI, THAT'S IT THAT'S ALL YOU CAN DO YOU MOGOLOID FUCKTARD. I FUCKED YOUR CUNT OF A MOTHER INT HE ASS TILL SHE DIED YOU AIDS INFECTED CHIMP. STOP TAKING IT IN THE ASS AND JUMP OUT OF A HIGH WINDOW YOU USELESS SHIT EATING WEASEL. NO WONDER YOU HAVE TO HIDE BEHIND SO MANY USERER NAMES, YOUR WEAK, PATHETIC, DUMMER THEN DIRT AND ALL YOUR GOOD FOR IS CATCHING YAM BAG BUTTER FAGGOT. THERE IS NO WAY YOU'VE EVER KNOW THE TOUCH OF A WOMEN. THEY WOULD SHUN YOUR UGLY CLEFT PALLET CUNT FACE, THAT'S WHY YOU LOOOOOVEEEEEE TO TAKE THE COCK, NO CUNT WOULD COME WITHING FIVE YARDS OF YOU. YOU'RE A COMPLEAT AND UTTER FAILIER AS A HUMAN BEING. YOU ARE WORTHLESS. FUCK OFF AND DIE. YOU AREN'T A MAN AT ALL YOU CANCER OF THE ASS.
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INSTEAD OF POSTING ON AICN 24 HRS A DAY CUNT. YOU CHEESE EATING SNITCH RAT CUNT FUCK FACE CUM DUMPSTER. YOU'RE NOT SMART AT ALL. THE PROOF ALL 50 MILLION POSTS YOU'VE MADE ON AICN DICK GOBBELER. HERE'S HOW FUCKING STUPID YOU ARE, YOU WATCH OTHER MEN WORK ON TV BECAUSE YOUR NOT A MAN. YOUR A WASTE OF GENETIC MATERIAL, DOUCHENOZZEL. BOHICA BITCH.
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THE ONLY THING YOU KNOW IS HOW TO GARGLE SPERM AND GET FUCKED IN THE ASS BY HORSES YOU WORTHLESS CUNT. YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING BECAUSE YOUR STUPID, A DICKLESS FUCKBOY, AND NOT A REAL MAN. KILL YOURSELF FUCKO. HOW'S THAT GOVERMENT CHEESE GOING FOR YOU SNITCH COWARD RAT FUCK BASTARD. YOU WORTHLESS WELFARE GETTING FUCKTARD.
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keep it up.
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I think you're letting an endemic unawareness regarding political theory and history to show. I realise that due to the nightmare machine that is popular culture you've come to think there are only set circumscribed meanings to words, but looking at their roots, often doing a little reading can reveal whole new avenues of discovery. As I said before, Fascism took many of it's cues from one of the founding fathers of Anarchism, (Proudhoun), an ideology that is in many ways extremely opposed to Fascism and everything it represents. If we take a look at the key thinkers behind the American Revolution, across the board there is a broad support of representative democracy and classical liberal economics. I'm not interested in what the extremely narrow lense of debate in the USA states is "liberal" and "conservative", I'm interested in the facts on the ground and the contextual reality of historicism. THUS, looking at the Oxford Dictionary's definition of "Democrat" we find this: DEMOCRAT: n 1. Advocate of democracy, FOLLOWED BY 2. Memeber of the democratic party. Were the American Founding Fathers advocates of democracy? You'd better believe it. In fact, in a lot of Europe the term "democrat" was used as a slur to imply "anarchist", due to a deep rooted fear in the aristocracy of the people taking power for themselves. I am NOT calling the founding fathers members of the contemporary Democratic Party, that would be stupid an anti-historical. However, the Founding Fathers were economic liberals and they were political democrats. If you use the correct dictionary defninition, historical and political context this is an inescapable and quite uncontroversial fact. I can't believe this has even become a subject for debate. Man, all because I said that the Founding Fathers were not Anarchists, which I would have thought was obvious in the first place!
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To claim that calling Jefferson et al democrats is stating their want to be members of the then non-existent party makes about as much sense as calling Pericles or Cleon supporters of Obama.
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Learn some basic politcal theory, philosophy and history man, it'd make all of these debates so much shorter.
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Apr 08, 2008 6:59:51 AM CDT
"THERE IS NO WAY YOU'VE EVER KNOW THE TOUCH OF A WOMEN."
by bringingsexyback
Ditto to Morbid. Where are you, Morbie?
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Apr 08, 2008 7:05:51 AM CDT
"YOU WATCH OTHER MEN WORK ON TV BECAUSE YOUR NOT A MAN"
by bringingsexyback
That's an excellent point, suit.
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I'm aware there is a definition for the word democrat other than the political part *rolls eyes* ... The whole point was not whether technically what you were saying might be "correct", but whether it was contextually apt, or clear enough to do your overall argument justice. You are arguing with mostly US citizens here, and the primary and secondary definitions would be reversed here (especially if you CAPITALIZE the word as you did). Go on using whatever words you want of course, as perverse as it may be. I understand/. you're interested in viewing things in a certain context, but I submit that it's important to be aware of your audience, and not try to perversely shoehorn definitions in where they don't easily fi, even if they're technically correct.
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Do not pass go, do not collect 200 sheckels ... Really, at what point DOES one appropriately "go to the Holocaust"? BraneRobot - care to enlighten us? What are some of the stops that precede it? The Diaspora? Woody Allen? Guide us, oh Moses of the TB!
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There is no controversy or perversity over this "claim". It is the globally accepted historical and political truth that the Founding Fathers were liberal democrats, read any textbook on the topic it will tell you the same thing. In fact we even now refer to the majority of the western world as "Liberal Democracies", most first year political studies courses in University (college) have core units which discuss the modern Liberal Democratic state and its foundations in the US revolution. I am using the correct language, context etc as ascertained by reality. All it would take is maybe a second to consider what the hell I was talking about when I first made this "shoehorned definintion". Btw I even quickly asserted what I meant by liberal and democrat in the first post! I apologise if I caused confusion to people, but I was only using the correct terminology. Frankly if you thought I was saying the FFs were contemporary democrats you need to pay closer attention to what you read. Oh and both Webster's and the American Heritage dictionary have "advocate of democracy" as their first description. Perhaps it would pay to not assume that everyone who uses the internet is both an American and ignorant of correct (both within and without the US) political terminology.
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It comes when I call myself a Libertarian in the historically accurate sense of the word. That is, an anti-authoratarian leftist.
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Just sayin'. ? Meanwhile I'll call my self an Anarchist but let you know at the same time that I mean it in the most literal sense and believe in no governing authority whatsoever.
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See as you provided the correct context; that is, what is commonly understood by the public as "anarchism", I can accept that. See, people can be friends, even on the internets! :D
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Reading Dr Richard Griffiths' excellent "Fascism", it's only 150 pages and it's one of the most succinct and well-written/researched views into the history and ideology of the Fascist movement. I think you may find some stuff that surprises you.
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This still has the power to make me laugh.
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You're welcome. But I have to object to your linkage of Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection and socialist/leftist thought. First, Darwin's theory of natural selection is a scientific one describing the process, agent, or situation which leads to the continuation of one organisms and the elimination of another. Natural selection is just that: natural. It acts on the variation found already existing within the population. What you are talking about when you say that the Israelis are more fit than the Palestinians is Social Darwinism. That kind of thinking is actually prominent in Nazi ideology and it is what lead to the idea of Eugenics, etc. The problem with Social Darwinism (other than the moral ones) is that it bastardizes the real theory. According to natural selection, the ONLY determining factor in an organism's fitness is reproductive success. Not how many weapons it has or how big its army is. Simply its reproductive success. Natural selection also does not have a brain. Natural selection does not make judgments like, "This race of people will survive because they are stronger or more worthy." Worthy has nothing to do with it. A population is only considered to be “fit” or "worthy" if it maintains or increases its numbers. If, for instance, you are a white rabbit and snow just fell, being a white rabbit is suddenly a favorable trait. You won't be seen by predators, you will make more babies, and the brown bunnies will be eaten. But being a white rabbit is ONLY favorable if you make more little white rabbits that grow to sexual maturity. If your white rabbit babies survive the predators but do NOT make as many babies as the brown rabbits, then being a white rabbit is not considered "fit". That may have been a bit confusing. What I'm saying is, according to the real theory, the Israelis are only more fit than the Palestanians if they make more babies. No other traits matter. If the Palestinians wanted to win the "struggle" according to Darwin, they would just have a lot of sex. Or of course, they could kill the other population off. The Jews having a better army would only be imnportant if they used that army to completely destroy the Palestinians, thereby insuring their population's reproductive success. Which is really fucked up. Now, on to the main point. Social Darwinism cannot really be considered an offshoot of socialism or leftist thought. The way you posit it, Social Darwinism is kind of a "let the strong survive" motto. It's a hands off type of approach, which is more of a libertarian idea than a socialist one. However, the way Hitler espoused it (using government control to determine a population's fitness) is on the far left. But really, it's either/or. Social Darwinism can be used both by an extreme isolationist to argue against intervention (like allowing a dictator to systematically murder 6 million Jews because "the strong should survive") OR, ironically, it can be used by said dictator as the rationale to kill 6 million Jews ("Zey are nots fit for survival!")
In either case, in my opinion, it's a bad bad bad framework for human behavior. -
has small peanuts!
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Very thoughtful postings on your part. This particular talkback has experienced highs and extreme lows, when it comes to clarifying a view or supporting a cause. That has occurred on all sides of the political divide here. I am not naive enough to beleive that the postings on this site will lead anyone to a more enlightened and civil approach to those whose views are different than their own, but I am hopeful that some will learn to modify their behavior, and that if nothing else, then do some research into a topic before launching an attack on it or someone else. Nothing wrong with having a different viewpoint, it would be a damn dull world if everyone thought the same, but it should also be noted that compromise, and a willingness to be flexible is paramount in order for us to succeed - in anything.
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Bravo!
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You can not debate someone like cccchrism, because think what you will of BraneRobot and Morbid, they at least have some intellect behind their views.
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but Brane did show some intelligence behind the genocidal ranting.
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If you guys haven't seen Man From Plains yet ... it's pretty great, like Mori said. It was not nearly as controversial as I thought it would be, as the "opposition" staged only a handful of very small demonstrations (like 20 to 30 people?). But I was fascinated to see Jimmy Carter up close and personal. He truly lives the life of a very modest and humble man.
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of the natural world.
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for 50 years, the most peaceful, enlightened, and principled non-violent people on the planet get NO play but oh, those poor "Palestinians" slaughter as many innocent people as possible and numbnuts like Carter trip over themselves coming to their defense?
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The answer lies in this documentary. Give it a look. Carter's not saying they're completely innocent. He says both sides need to settle down and work things out for the long haul.
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According to China, at least.
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but what better example of an oppressed people more deserving of the world's support than the Tibetans? Where the fuck IS everybody? This shit makes no sense. I know, I know, it's China and it's complicated (or everyone is too chickenshit).
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And think the world should come down hard on China's policy on Tibet. But China's economy is a damned juggernaut that fuels the world. Fully 1/4 of the world's docking operations occur at just one of China's coastal ports. That's an enormous amount of trade that feeds the entire world, from the Americas to Africa to Europe and Asia. Complicated doesn't nearly describe it. But it will be interesting to see what the Tibetans do during the Olympics to garner attention to their worthy cause.
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Apr 08, 2008 3:49:06 PM CDT
ALTHOUGH I WOULD THINK MORBID WOULD TAKE CHINA'S SIDE
by bringingsexyback
That's just the way he's programmed.
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Too much traffic and damned foreigners here as it is.
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If you peruse this talkback I think you'll understand that China is more a totalitarian / socialist system overseeing a highly capitalist economy and populace.
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The consensus amongst leading Chinese experts is that China became truly CINO after Deng Xiaping's "opening" and reforms. Mao was an evil EVIL man, but he did institute the "iron rice bowl", which essentially secured state healthcare, education and welfare for it's citizens. Now there's none of that. Moreover, the workers in China "enjoy" some of the worst working conditions on the planet. Unions are completely banned, as is the right to associate in large groups. The only vestiges of communism I can still see in China are it's pathetically corrupt and incompentent state-owned industries, which the Chinese subsidise the daylights out of to keep afloat. Everything else about the Chinese system of governance, from it's one-party rule to it's hilariously conservative laws on sex to it's excecution to it's organ harvesting etc is just a pretty close to a modern version of Fascism. Check it: 1. Ultra-Nationalist? You'd better believe it. Demonisation of a minority? Try a few minorities, such as Tibetans, Taiwanese, Japanese, pretty much anyone who disagrees with the fucked up mentality of the Chinese government. 3. Massive centralisation of the state. Oh yes indeedy.
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And throw in religious persecution too. The Falun Gong, along with other religious and political dissidents, have been literally tortured. Brutal.
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Apr 09, 2008 3:00:53 AM CDT
Actually I can make the formula for Fascism pretty easily
by theoneofblood
Nationalist+Authoritarian+Capitalist=Fascist
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