Hey everyone. Capone in Chicago here.
Chris Cooper is in an extraordinary little movie opening now called MARRIED LIFE, in which he gets to do something I wish more filmmakers would let him do more often: he gets to play the lead. The film costars Pierce Brosnan, Patricia Clarkson, and Rachel McAdams; but it's Cooper's character that steals the show as a late-40s-era husband with a mistress, who decides his wife shouldn't have to burden herself with the chore of living without him. So he sets out to kill her.
For years, Cooper has given an almost-ridiculous string of exceptional supporting performances in film after film. His first on-screen appearance was in John Sayles' MATEWAN (1987), and the two have continued to work together over the years in such works as the masterpiece LONE STAR, CITY OF HOPE, and the political satire SILVER CITY (in which Cooper played a politician that bore more than a striking resemblance to our current president. Cooper seems to have excelled in playing two types of characters: men in a position of authority and men uncomfortable in their own skin (sometimes, he embodies both in a single character). Although strangely enough, the portrayal that earned him the Best Supporting Actor Oscar (2002's ADAPTATION) didn't really have either of these qualities.
But look at the track record: THIS BOY'S LIFE; A TIME TO KILL; GREAT EXPECTATIONS; THE HORSE WHISPERER; AMERICAN BEAUTY; THE PATRIOT; SEABISCUIT; CAPOTE; THE BOURNE IDENTITY; JARHEAD; SYRIANNA; and what might be the role of a lifetime in last year's BREACH. Hell, I'd even throw in his role in HBO's BREAST MEN in this list. The Kansas City native has the greatest grimace in the movie business, and it has made him one of the most sought after character actors working today. He's acutely aware of his image as a performer, and he's one of most polite guys you'll ever meet.
I sat down recently with Cooper and his MARRIED LIFE director Ira Sachs (who made the deeply moving film FORTY SHADES OF BLUE, which won the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance in 2005) to discuss the film's pulp novel roots, its commentary on domestic life and sex roles in the late 1940s, and how to murder your wife.
Capone: Usually when you see a story of an adulterous husband and a younger woman, it’s a very physical attraction. Here it’s almost the opposite of that: his wife is the more sexual, aggressive person, and the husband seems more into the companionship aspect of the relationship with the mistress.
Can you talk about that, because that’s so unusual, especially for a period film, a film of that time. It seems to indicate a commentary on the changing sex roles of women in that era.
Chris Cooper: I would say from Harry’s character, from his history as a young boy, losing his parents very early and being shuffled off to an aunt, who then sent him off to boarding school, he was a boy looking for affection, and he never felt he got it--from anybody. And, he continues that he didn’t get it in this relationship--and, he’s a romantic. And, he needs that, he wants that. Pat, his wife, she has a different take on the institution of marriage, and so he seeks it elsewhere. And, when he does find Kay, it’s two people that are wounded. She’s recently lost her husband, lost her mother, and it is sort of a paternal relationship, the way I saw it. And then, it turns into a romantic, loving relationship, but they’re comforting each other.
Ira Sachs: I think that, in truth, even people who claim all they want is sex, at the end of the day, what everyone wants is love. And, I think, what’s interesting about this story and what kind of makes it combustible narratively is that you have four characters who are all really, deeply yearning for something different in their lives. So, that desire is kind of running into the other person’s desire, and the other person’s desire. And, what keeps the story turning is that no one is just accepting where they are and that they’re all driven by the need for change and the need for love. On the other hand, I think, what is attractive to me about the film is…one of the things that attracted me was the moment when I realized that Patricia Clarkson’s character was more complicated than I thought.
Capone: I was going to mention that, because the film is filled with surprises. In a domestic setting, you’re not used to getting those surprises, and you assume, when we find out that Harry’s cheating on his wife, and especially when you see what she looks like, you assume a lot about that relationship that is not the case, and you certainly assume things about his marriage that turn out to be not in any way true, especially about the nature of his wife’s needs.
Another director might have turned this into a more conventional--especially with the murder aspect of it--into a more conventional, noirish film, but you seem to focus more on the domestic angle and the relationship.
IS: Well, I think, it’s a suspense film in the way that, to me, like, certain Patricia Highsmith books are suspense films, the ones without murder. The domestic life is really suspenseful on some level. So, there is a question always of how it’s going to turn and what the stakes are for the characters. But, I think, what really interests me also is the texture of the intimate life within that and how in this film you’re able to kind of…this larger-than-life, not-very-realistic, in a way, story, exaggerated story, then has within it kind of very realistic, intimate, emotional relationships between the characters.
Capone: I wanted to mention that unreal aspect to it, because it does feel sometimes like some sort of American fable. Parts of it you’re not sure if you’re supposed to take it literally, or if this is a morality play of some sort. Is that intended?
IS: Well, I think what we didn’t necessarily realize when we were writing the film, shooting the film, and it sort of became evident as we were editing the film, is that the basic premise is funny, and that it’s a little over the top in a way that we wanted the audience to be comfortable with from the beginning, which is why we created this animated credit sequence at the beginning.
We wanted to say ‘Take it seriously and not’, which I would also say is what led me to make this film in the sense that, if you watch MILDRED PIERCE, ‘Take it seriously and not’, if you watch HARRIET CRAIG, ‘Take it seriously and not’. It’s like there’s a level of investment that the actors have, which is incredibly serious, that doesn’t necessarily mean the audience needs to approach the story in a literal way. I don’t think it’s a morality story, though. A fable is more appropriate. I’m sure it has a morality, but I’m not sure that was my intention.
Capone: Okay, but even the look of the film has a little…it’s not natural always. It doesn’t come across as natural. Are there certain things you adjusted visually to achieve that effect?
IS: Well, I think that Chris has talked about the nature of the dialogue. There’s something very non-casual about the film and the performances and the creation of the world around them, which I think is what makes it a movie and not a reality show and not television. I think that’s why I put in the middle of the movie this Ava Gardner/James Mason clip, because in a way that’s what I love about movies, the part of them that is bigger than life and yet somehow seem to parallel certain experiences of life that I find very true.
Capone: Chris, it was really nice for once to see you play someone who wasn’t in a position of institutionalized authority. I guess the husband could be considered the ultimate authority, I don’t know, but…
CC: He thought he was.[laughs]
Capone: Yeah, but clearly, here you’re playing someone who probably up to this point in his life has followed the letter of the law and never contemplated anything like this. How would you articulate the factors in your head that drove him to this point?
CC: Well, just what you touched on…Basically, all his life: law abiding, very rational, hard working, and invested a lot in his work and where, I think, is a reason for why the marriage fell flat.
Capone: How did you see the motivation that drove him to the point of contemplating murder? Were the circumstances truly so dire that he couldn’t just divorce her?
CC: There are aspects I won’t share with that as to why, but generally, this man has been looking for this all his life and he’s never felt he’s gotten it, and through this woman, who so captivates both men, and you can understand why--she’s got everything--he thinks he’s found his happiness. And, this man is going passionately for what he’s seeking. That is the basic outline; the nuts and bolts of it are not to be shared.
IS: I think he’s also someone who has at the beginning of the film a real narcissistic relationship to his wife in the sense that he takes himself seriously enough to think that she can’t live without him. And, I think, basically, it’s towards the end of the film when he realizes that’s not true that he is able to be close to her in a different way. I mean, you could say it’s a film about codependence on some level, in the modern term in the sense that you need to understand that someone has a life separate from you to begin to understand who they are.
And, I think he does in the end of the film. I think he basically starts off being the person who knows the least about the three people, and he ends up being the guy who knows the most. You actually see a transformation in Chris, which is incredible. In the last two minutes of the film, there’s a new person there.
Capone: Yeah. Not to give away anything about the ending, in a lot of ways it almost seemed like the façade became the reality: the happy relationships that they projected upon the rest of the world actually turned out to be a very happy relationship.
IS: Well, it’s kind of the opposite of ‘Ignorance is bliss’. It’s knowledge isn’t intimacy, and self-knowledge is also, maybe, a place where…I think he knows himself better by the end on some level, and he’s living less in a fantasy world.
CC: In that sequence, that 8-min. period where he discovers her in bed and sees her boyfriend, her lover, leaving the house, and carrying that scene…you could go on a long-winded breakdown of that, but you just kind of touched on it…It was an immediate awakening, almost a very rich tit-for-tat that happens instantly. And, a lot has to go on in his head: ‘Don’t question her about this. Don’t get yourself any deeper.’ I mean, there’s a lot in those…the breakdown of that scene, a lot that’s going on in his head emotionally, but in a nutshell, it’s this massive comeuppance.
Capone: Chris, you seem to specialize in sort of injecting a kind of darkness into some of the characters you play. You seem to find the dark corners in their lives. You seem to play roles where you’re able to explore characters a little deeper. Is that something that you look for? Do you look for characters that will allow you to do that?
CC: It’s a number of things. It’s like, at its most basic, those are the scripts that come my way. If you want to call that a kind of pigeonholing, fine. On the other hand, I try not to repeat myself in my work. To another extent, maybe I’m seen a certain way, but I continue to say, it’s odd that the film I got the most recognition for and the character I got the most recognition for are so diametrically opposed to what I usually play.
Capone: Are you talking about ADAPTATION?
CC: Yes.
IS: But, I would actually say the opposite, because I cast Chris in this film because he would bring a certain lightness to a role that in someone else’s hand would be too dark and heavy that you would lose empathy for him. And, actually, what he is able to do is to humanize some bad behavior in a way that not only is it kind of playful, it also has a sense of humor, which doesn’t mean he’s laughing at the character, but there is a bumbling quality to Harry that I think he brings that is really what actually lightens the film, not darkens it.
Capone: And, not to indicate that every character you play is dark and serious, because there certainly is humor in a lot of what you do. I just saw THE BOURNE IDENTITY yesterday on TV, and I had forgotten that every time that character was miffed, it was very funny. The way he would lie to his superiors…it’s there. But, at the same time, we were joking about playing the authority figures--the military roles, the government, the politicians. Why do you think that is? What do they see in you? You must have some military in your background…
CC: I was in the military, and that life experience I can bring to my characters, but aside from film work, I’ve lived a very full life. And, those jobs have served me well for a lot of the characters that I play and those that I haven’t. If I play a doctor, I’ll do my research about it, but my father was a doctor, and I’ve observed him all my life. And, there’s a world that I could bring to…well, I’ve already played the doctor, but…
IS: I like the quote that you said that John Sayles says that ‘You have the face of the Depression.’
CC: Is that the face of the Depression or a face that looks like it’s been lived in?
Capone: The Depression, capital ‘D’.
IS: Right. But, I think that also is because there is a quality that people identify with in Chris. But, that he’s a genius actor, so that he’s like us, except he’s able to elevate the emotions to a place that most of us can’t, could not, to bring them to the screen in a way that makes them bigger and more recognizable.
CC: That being said, I put the word out that I’m looking for more light comedy. I’ve really kind of come…you know, it also has to do with your age in the business. And, here we are…I don’t know if you want to mention names, but Ed Harris and I are in the same age range. We’re up for so much of the same stuff. We’ve been in a lot of CIA stuff, FBI, the military guys, you know. Maybe it’s just the period of life we’re in, but it’s not like I can send out the word ‘I’m looking for lighter material or comic material’. I’d love to give it a try. It’s just does not come my way.
Capone: Both of you, can you tell me a little bit about working with Pierce Brosnan. On the surface, your acting styles might seem a little different, but the friendship seems very believable. And, in the few years especially, he has really shown us what he’s capable of. Can you talk a little about the relationship between the characters and the working relationship, and his style?
IS: We didn’t really rehearse this movie, and that was sort of a choice, not out of time or money, but because I find rehearsal can, like, zap surprise out of the moment. But, one thing we did do is I set up kind of time for Chris and Pierce and Chris and Rachel to spend time together alone. So, it was rehearsal without a director. And, I think, from what you’ve said, that they’ve sort of found a lot of things that were…They’re men of the same age, they’ve spent the same amount of time on this planet. I think there were a lot of similarities.
And then, I think, they’re both fantastically good actors who rose to meet each other's level, like, when we did the first scene in the gentlemen’s club, when we turned the camera on, they had never spoken to each other in those characters. It was like a good game of tennis. You definitely felt like, ‘Oh, they’re both going to play at that level. This is nice.’ That created a sort of playfulness between the two of them as actors, which also becomes part of the playfulness between them as characters.
Capone: Chris, what’s your best Pierce Brosnan story from working with him?
CC: In this instance, where Ira set up these dinners, I had already worked with Patty, and we continued our relationship, our friendship, for a number of years.
And, we’d had family things in common. And Pierce, you know, when we met at the restaurant, it just started with touching on the business and this almost a couple of decades where he’s played James Bond, and telling me that you almost are a world ambassador in that character, and you do travel the world, and you do have some of the most beautiful women practically kneeling before you, and you begin to believe, ‘Yes, I am James Bond.’ And, he’s had some tragedies, and a very happy marriage now, again.
And, this period of James Bond is over and, I think, he’s handled that well. He’s made a great career of it, but he knows and he’s made great choices since then to step away from that and work into other aspects of his talent.
But, I know, and I don’t know what the mystery is…It just doesn’t happen to me. Throughout my career, people ask about funny stories. I hate to be downer about it, but people are there to work, and unless you’re kind of a jackass and looking to take focus, everybody’s pretty much committed to the job that they’re doing in their character. That’s the joy, that’s the ultimate for me, when I can find four actors that are into it as much as I am, man, that’s great. That’s the greatest feeling.
IS: And, I think, what it is, with all four…I was thinking about the four of them and, I think, I’m part of this as well, so in a way, the five of us…very ambitious creatively. And, there was a common feeling that everyone was really giving a lot, which made every scene kind of just push a little bit farther than we might have expected from the form.
Capone: Maybe when you start doing light comedies, you’ll have funny stories to tell people.
CC: [laughs] Yeah.
IS: I can tell you one funny story. It’s not very funny, but…
Capone: About Pierce?
IS: Well, no. Rachel. It’s interesting, because I just remembered this. There’s a scene where she comes in, and it’s kind of her…it’s a little bit her Kim Novak moment. She has an entrance, and she’s in this dress, and I just remembered recently, because people were, like, ‘She has this quality, and she’s really like…’, well, I remembered that to get that quality, she had to walk in slow motion, which is something that only in the moment…when we were shooting did I realize when she crossed the viewfinder that if she walked at normal speed, it would be over like that.
So, instead of what Hitchcock did, which was slow down the film--he actually slowed the film down--I realized that we could slow Rachel down. So, she’s walking like a zombie, actually, and yet, to the human eye, it looks like a dream world. It has that kind of quality. Do you remember that?
CC: Yes, I remember it very well, I remember it very well. It worked beautifully.
Capone: The period of the film is central. I don’t know if the story would have worked in a contemporary setting. I think it has a lot to do with the sex roles of men and women in the film…
IS: Do you think the sex roles have changed very much?
Capone: Yeah, I do. I was going to ask you about that…This is the second film you’ve made about a marriage in transition--and, not a very healthy marriage, at least to start out. Are you not a fan of the institution?
IS: Well, I don’t think this film is about the institution. Specifically, ‘married life’ to me is a term about long relationships, and particularly as a gay man, if I was making…like, I feel an identification with these characters, and married life is something that I feel I’ve experienced in all its complexity. I’m a big fan of relationships and intimacy. I have noticed that I’ve made three films that kind of are driven by deceit at their core. And, I think that I’m happy to say I’m done with that, that particular element. But, I also think that’s where drama is. Drama is the distinction between what people show on the surface and what they feel underneath…is where trouble lies.
But, I think this film is…It ended up being more a comedy of remarriage than a traditional noir suspense film. I think its ultimate interest is in the nature of that rupture and repair in everyday life, told in a way that’s very exaggerated, movie-like, but, I think, somehow something that people go and…It is set in a period, but it’s not really about the period. It’s about the relationships.
Capone: Right, but setting it in that period does taint it in a way, I don’t mean in a bad way, but it does color events.
IS: I think it does make the basic premise more believable, even though it’s still not very believable. It’s still not to be taken literally, maybe. I also think that because it’s a suspense story, it’s really to our advantage that we don’t have to deal with all the modern elements of communication, because so much about suspense is what people don’t know. And, if you suddenly had cell phones and computers, the Internet, it just changes…It becomes a whole different thing. There’s an elemental…You talked about it being a fable, and there’s an elemental quality to the story that you can keep in that period, because certain things were simpler. Otherwise, I don’t think it’s any different. I really don’t think ’49 was any different from today.
Capone: Chris, I interviewed John Sayles not too long ago, and we were talking about some of the regular people that he works with. I may be wrong about this, but it doesn’t seem like you work with a lot of the same directors, you try to mix it up a bit, but you always seem to go back to him every few years.
CC: Well, John gave me my first job.
Capone: Right, in MATEWAN.
CC: Right. And, we’ve done four films, one about every five or six years. He was the greatest foundation example I could imagine as writer/director/editor/and sometimes actor in his films. He set a standard for me that I follow to this day. He’s sort of a man of all trades, and he does have a photographic memory. You bring up just about anything, he has some working knowledge of it. He’s an amazing man. David Strathairn, John and Maggie, and Maryann, my wife, they are probably are dearest friends in the business.
We travel together, spend holidays together, I think, initially, his stable of actors, by and large, started out in theater. I think that was a smart choice for him. He instilled in me that in independent filmmaking, in any kind of filmmaking, time is money, and the responsibilities of coming prepared, and being able to make adjustments, and work for the love of the project. Great standards to start from. And, he just remains a terribly interesting guy.
Capone: And, he directed you in, maybe, one of your funniest roles, too, in SILVER CITY.
CC: That was a lot of fun. And, fortunately, thank goodness, he made the cast change, because, initially, he had approached me to play the Kris Kristofferson role. And, I think, Maggie came up with the idea of him asking me to play…whatever that character’s name was…like Bush.
Capone: Did he really put it to you that way? To make it seem like Bush or a version of Bush?
CC: Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. If you remember the time…You know, my problem with John is he’s consistently a little bit ahead of the time of everybody else. I mean, he was so far ahead in LONE STAR about immigration and land deals, and he brought that back again somewhat, touched on it in SILVER CITY. And, when SILVER CITY came out, that was the worst time to be anti-Bush.
Capone: That’s right. I do remember that.
CC: It was crystal clear in our minds. That film, really, it got dumped.
Capone: Well, thank you both for talking to us.
Capone
