Capone With Michel Gondry About BE KIND REWIND, TOKYO!, And THE RETURN OF THE ICE KIDS!!

Hey everyone. Capone in Chicago here. As much as I've spend most of my natural-born life trying to remember what director made what movies, I also am a child of the '80s, so for more years than I care to mention I've also attempted to find out as much about music video directors as I possibly could. If you haven't picked up the “Director's Series, Vol. 3—The Work of Director Michel Gondry,” you simply don't know what wonders you are missing. Fantastic and creative videos from Bjork, Beck, The White Stripes, Massive Attack, Foo Fighters, and even a couple bands you've never heard of but their videos are still kick ass. Gondry simply sees the world a little bit differently than the rest of us and that makes his videos and his films so fantastic. Although few people saw or remember his first film, HUMAN NATURE (with its script by Charlie Kaufman), Gondry and Kaufman made a major splash with my favorite film of 2004, ETERNAL SUNSHINE OF THE SPOTLESS MIND. Although I wasn't a big fan of his follow-up work THE SCIENCE OF SLEEP, I admired its vision and attempt to blur the line between the wakened and dream states. It's a subversive, slightly manic movie that I don't have trouble watching over and over, even though I see its flaws each time. His document of Dave Chappelle's music and comedy extravaganza BLOCK PARTY is just blast to absorb and ingest. His latest work is the sometimes hilarious, sometimes somber piece BE KIND REWIND, starring Jack Black and Mos Def as a pair of friends in New Jersey who must come up with ridiculously creative ways to redo films that have been accidentally erased in the video store Mos Def runs. They call this process “sweding” for reasons I won't go into here, but you will never watch ROBOCOP, GHOSTBUSTERS, BOYS N THE HOOD, or DRIVING MISS DAISY (and a handful of other films) quite the same again. The film is less about remaking films than it is about two friends discovering they have the bug and the knack for making highly entertaining movies. Quint interviewed Gondry and his star Jack Black at Sundance, and I had a chance to sit down with Gondry recently here in Chicago to talk about his own discovery of the film bug, working with Bjork, Mos Def the actor, his 6-year-old brain, and many other wonderful things. His French accent is thick, but his dry wit and obvious enthusiasm for what he does came through loud and clear. Enjoy…

Capone: Before we talk about the movie, I just wanted to say that the creation of yours that I’ve been watching a lot lately is the “Declare Independence” video that you just did for Bjork. I think that’s wonderful. Michel Gondry: Oh yeah, yeah. Thank you.
C: We saw Björk at concert last year, and that was always the last song she played. It just shakes the theater. And, I think the video really captures that very aggressive, bouncing… MG: Yeah, I got the idea from watching her in concert.
C: Is that what it was? MG: Yeah, I saw how there is this kind of loop of energy, where she gives energy to people, and people get excited, and give back the energy. And, give this energy back to the musicians. And, the musicians give energy to her, and then she gives back the energy to the audience. So, there is this loop I wanted to represent by this machine, where the ropes are tying everybody together, and keep turning it. And, then the music interacts on this loop, on this rope by spraying paint on it. So, it’s a concept that completely came from watching her in concert.
C: It was actually nice to see members of her band in a video for once. You don’t get to see them very often. MG: Yes, well it’s just Mark Bell in this case. Mark Bell and Björk have a very long-term relationship, like friendship, creative relationship. It’s the same type as the one I have with Björk. This is something I really cherish, and I really thought it was great for him to be part of it. In fact, in the beginning, we didn’t know if he could be there with her, and she really insisted for him to be in the video, because she really wanted to show this sort of teamwork she created with him.
C: Did the machine actually work? MG: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. That’s why it’s shot on video with a lot of cameras pointing in different directions, but at the same time. So, we had to cheat just a little bit, because the color wasn’t so defined. We had to increase the color of the rope. But, aside from that, it was really working.
C: The two of you have worked so many times together. Is she the most difficult coming up with a new concept for her, because so many people expect something from her visuals? MG: Not in this regard, because I started with her and she started with me as well, so we didn’t have any expectations when we started. It was fresh ground. But after having done six, and now seven, videos, of course, there is a pressure, because I always try to go in a different direction. Not that this is very tough, but at least, be consistent in quality when I work with her. So, it gives a lot of pressure. The last video I did before this one was “Bachelorette.” It was ten years ago, so it was a sort of potential like that, can we come up with something as good, especially with the budget that is smaller now. And, we worked with an incredible team, because this budget is very small, but there's a lot of work in it. And, it’s the first time maybe I really came up with the concept on the clear ground. Generally, she will start the concept, or we will go back and forth. And, this time, I really wanted to do this machine, because it represented very well what was going on in the concert. I would say I could, like, mix up this idea with other concepts. I’m really grateful she let me do it my way.
C: I could spend this whole interview talking about your music video work. I have that collection, the Director’s Series, and I have watched every frame of it. I think those are great. This may not be the most original idea that I could come up with to say about BE KIND REWIND, but it reminded me that a lot of the characters in your films have a very childlike quality to them. And, they also inspire, I think, at least in me, a sort of childlike giddiness about whatever it is that the characters are doing. Is that how you see life? MG: Yes. Well, I see life like that, at least in my movies, I think. I like this quality that people have, that they believe everything is possible, if you just try it, or if you work hard enough to make it happen. And, of course, it’s likely to appear naïve, but I think there is a sort of purity in it. Certainly, I hate cynicism, revenge. A lot of films, I think, are about that. Maybe, it’s because I’m French, and I’m writing in English, so I have some limitations. Maybe, it's simply limitation in me. I think in the future, I’m maybe going to get a little more into more complexity. But I’m not ashamed of this childlike quality.
C: I didn’t mean it as an insult. MG: Some people call me immature or someone with a six-year-old's brain. That’s okay. Some people complain because, I think, they think I shouldn’t be allowed to come up with concepts because they are not so ground based. But, I disagree. It seems like the concepts are based on reality. I mean, of course, they’re working the way they would maybe not work in real life. They’re working the way I would like them to work in real life.
C: To carry on with that, does making films and videos feel like play? Does it feel like something that you’re enjoying? Or does it feel like work? MG: Well, it feels very much like work, too. And, there is a lot of pressure, and there is always the fear of failing. But, for one thing, I don’t have a boss. You know, I remember one day, that 15 years ago, the last job I had a boss, I was terrible at it. And, this woman was talking to me in such in a rude way that at some point, after half an hour, that I got up and said to her, “I don’t like the way you talk to me.” I walked away, and I didn’t close the door. It was 10 in the morning, I went back to bed, and I decided that I would never take a job with a boss, anymore, ever. And, I stuck to it. I stood by it. Of course, sometimes, there is a hierarchy, there is somebody I have to report to. But, I think I managed my way to make my own decisions, and I’m very glad. I mean, it’s a luxury. It’s not given to anyone. But, I think, at least you should try to be your own boss. It’s a decision that was made in the moment. It’s a clear remembrance, this moment is important to remember, because it helps you when you doubt, or when you think am I doing good? What’s wrong with me?
C: Because the other option is having a boss, right. MG: [laughs] Yeah, for one thing. Or many, many other options, but yeah, having a boss is one of the worse options.
C: Going back to what we were talking about before, I’ve always gotten the impression from all of your work that you see the world differently than the rest of us. That’s it’s put together differently, and it’s easier for you to take it apart. Sometimes, when I see a comedian…you've work with Dave Chappelle, so you know that they see the world differently. They see the humor where a lot of people don’t. But, you see other things that can be taken apart and put in an order that no one else would think to do. Is that how you see the world all the time? MG: Maybe. I think everyone sees the world in their own way. They really question it in their own terms. I think I imagine concepts or characters, and then I try to make them exist as much as possible. And, the world around them reflects who they are, or, at least, makes them, gives them possibilities to make this concept a function of their existing personalities. So, of course, I create the world around them. It’s a little bit of a different world, but I think the film BE KIND REWIND, it could seem naïve, or it could seem utopian and simplistic, but I’m talking about the world I believe in. I’m talking about real people, I’m talking about a city that exists, and I’m talking about the concepts that can very well work. And, I think I’m going to try to make it work in real life. So, I’m not completely starting from scratch. And, I think a lot of movies are recreating the world, or trying to pretend that’s the world the way it exists, where people are all brave, and they fight for very conventional values. And, even movies that seem to be about a sort of happiness or sweetness, they really defend very conservative values. That's not realistic; that’s not the only way the world can work. So, I don’t think I’m so unrealistic.
C: People in their…I guess at the youngest would be in their early 40s--and that includes me--we grew up with two things: video tape and home video cameras. And, of course, when I was a kid, my brother and I would remake films or make episodes of TV shows with this huge video camera that we had. Your film really tapped into that. It really brought back a lot of memories of just having no budget and just trying to recreate something, science fiction or whatever. Were there times in your life like that, were there certain films that you coveted and you wanted to make or remake? MG: Well, I didn’t remake films. And, I don’t want people to believe this movie is about remaking films, because ultimately they make their own film. But, I was thinking about my son. I remember, like, maybe about eight years ago, with my little brother, they were creating horror movies. So, they’re not technically advanced enough to re-create something they’ve seen. They just make their own stuff. This is a process that I really like, and I think it’s great. I want to push people to make their own films.
C: It’s not a film about remaking films, but it’s interesting that by making these sort of reductions, these 20-minute versions, it’s saying a lot about attention span. And, the fact that these shorter versions of films are very well received by those who rent them. Especially in America, our attention span is often attacked. Was that intentional? MG: Well, I’m not advocating for that. In fact, I’m advocating for the opposite. I think everybody should throw their remote control in the garbage, and they would watch TV in a more intelligent way. On my part, I throw away my antenna. I don’t have cable, I don’t have [an] antenna. I just watch DVDs that I decide I’m going to watch. I watch them from beginning to the end. I don’t watch two minutes and then stop. And, you could argue that music video is about short-term attention, but within my videos, I tried to keep focused and keep people watching them. Even sometimes I show my videos to friends, and they say, “Oh, that’s good,” and then they talk to me and they forget to watch. And, I want them to keep watching, because they’re going to miss an important part that makes the ending and whatever, otherwise it makes no sense. So, I’m all about sustaining your attention. And, it’s very difficult, because I had the concept of a TV show lately, and the broadcaster suggested I should watch those Japanese TV show where it’s completely bombarded with images. He said I should have this pacing, this energy, and I was, like, No, I’m not at all. So, I don’t know if I will do this TV show. It doesn’t matter, but what it matters is, I think, I’m making fun…They’re trying to find a movie, they’re trying to find the excuses for them to be writing just 20-minute film versions. And, their excuse is not necessarily right. What is right is, it’s great that they're making their own film, or they bypass the system. This is why. This is what I’m defending. But, later on, when they say about being the stockholder of their own happiness, it’s something that I’m really attached to, believing that people can…They don’t have to wait for the corporations to provide or the system to provide. They can do it in their own way.
C: I think the trailer for BE KIND leads you to believe that Jack Black is just wacky and energetic the whole time, but there are real periods here where he’s sort of a tragic character in some ways. But, that energy still comes in through his acting. MG: Yeah, he has this quality of really believing in what he’s doing. And as much as Mos Def's character really wants to help the community and stick to this place on the belief that Fats Waller used to live there, and it’s very important to him to remember him. Jack’s character is more about his personal success, I mean, it’s to move out and become famous. So, they have very different motivations, but they meet their expectations at the end. And, they are happy for different reasons.
C: Let’s talk about the Fats Waller aspect to this story, since you brought it up. The moral of the story is that the truth is whatever you need it to be, or whatever you want it to be. That’s actually a fairly radical way of thinking. MG: [laughs] Yeah. I’m not sure that’s the moral of the film. I mean, they say, “It’s our past. We can change it if we want. It’s okay.”
C: Some might think it’s a dangerous way to think. MG: Yeah. Well, I like that I make statements that are a little bit politically incorrect. I mean in their case, they’re not harming anything. But, I think it’s funny to me that Mia Farrow, she has all this authenticity, and she genuinely is generous, but she would say things that are really crazy, what she says about DRIVING MISS DAISY is a film about generosity. Of course, Mos Def thinks exactly the opposite, but I think it’s part of the comedy, and it makes people think, Why do you bring this material into the conversation? It’s interesting. Of course, I cannot defend the idea that you can make your own past. Of course, if you’re part of a place or country that mass kills people and you want to change that, you should not. But, in this case, they’re just stealing Fats Waller from Harlem and pretending he's from there, so there’s no harm in doing that. And, I don’t think people get this message coming out of the film. I think the message is more ‘Take a camera, do your own film, and get out of your TV and your home, because what is given to you on your TV is not exactly what you need. Decide what you need, basically.’
C: How did you come up with your wish list of films that these guys would Swede? MG: Very organically. Some of them were suggested by Dave Chappelle when I was working with him on BLOCK PARTY, and I told him about my concert. And, he said, “You should do this one and this one and this one.” And mostly, he talk about African-American or African-American and white people issues, which I would have been embarrassed to decide to talk about. Now, I would feel more at ease to talk about these issues. So, that was from him. Also, I wanted really iconic films that everybody has seen, and they are…Of course, in general, it’s movies I like, but I didn’t want to be a specialist in film. I wanted them to be films that everybody had seen.
C: Right. I do think, though, by setting it in a store that only had videotapes, you have deliberately limited yourself to a certain subset of films. MG: Yeah. It's not that I did it deliberately, because I needed those to be videos to get erased all at once. So, they couldn’t be DVDs. On the other hand, I know places where they only carry VHS, because they carry these old collection of videos that you don’t see on DVDs. And, I know a lot of people from an older generation who don’t like to use DVDs. And, I know it sounds completely obsolete now, VHS, when you consider that even DVDs are at the end of their run. But, I mean, technology peaks at a certain point. But then, it continues a different life, and it doesn’t mean it’s not important. I think it could be a very important life of recycling and watching those VHS, as well as any other technology, because it has the past ingrained in it, and there’s no reason we should not refer to it.
C: I want to talk about Mos Def. I love him as an actor. And, there are some people that who only know him as an actor, who are not as familiar with his music. Did you meet him for the first time making BLOCK PARTY?
MG: Yeah. C: He has a really subtle way of acting. Could you talk about him a little bit? MG: Yeah, he’s very deep and very subtle. He has no awareness of the camera. And, it would be to the point when I would end up to shoot the back of his head or the back of his neck. Most comedians, the ones who are trained to perform in front of the camera, have this awareness of the camera that I actually constrict by my directing. And, with a guy like Mos, it’s really different, because I have to tell him, “Can you go a little bit on the side, because we cannot shoot…we cannot see Jack over here.” He’s completely unaware of the camera, but I think it’s a great quality, because you can really get into his brain, into his head, in his spirit, without having him noticing the camera. A lot of actors have this sort of little pair of eyes inside of their eye that looks at the camera, even if they are looking the other way. It takes away from this connection they are supposed to have with the other person. Mos doesn’t have this problem. He’s really totally oblivious of the system around him.
C: Did you care at all one way or the other whether your two lead characters were cinephiles or not? Or, would it actually work to your advantage to have them not know movies that well? MG: I think I needed them not to be cinephiles. I didn’t want this to be a tribute about film. I wanted them to be ignorant in their field, and I think it’s way more funny and interesting. If you give a camera to somebody to make a movie who has never done that, you’re going to get unexpected results from that. That gives them a completely fresh perspective on those things. So, it was really important that…okay, Mos Def works there, but he’s not that sort of film fan. He’s much more into Fats Waller.
C: I know a lot of people, especially film students, who want to know some of the tricks of your trade. Are you willing to share those? Or, do you like to keep them private? MG: Yeah, of course. I prefer to give them to film students or youngsters rather than to people who are going to use them in advertising and make millions. So, I am absolutely open to give them. And, I took some of them from other directors, which you can see in the Making Of, a lot of tricks from [Georges] Melies [director of VOYAGE TO THE MOON] or people from the past. It’s not like magic, where it doesn’t work if you understand how it’s made. Also, I like magic very much. In fact, Georges Melies was a magician. He was the first one to understand the possibilities of the camera to give more sophistication to his tricks.
C: One more actor I wanted to talk about. I don’t know if you’ve seen Danny Glover in his other new film that’s coming out in this country, HONEYDRIPPER, the John Sayles film--also very much about music, although it’s about blues music. It’s just great to see him at the top of his game again between these two films. MG: Yeah, I think Danny Glover really cares for issues in the world. He promoted this film called BAMAKO last year. Amazing. He had just a little part in it, but it was mostly to help people, their awareness around this film. This movie is happening in Africa, in the street court, and it’s judging the World Bank. It’s just amazing what you get from this film, what you learn. I didn’t even know that the World Bank was a private interest…I mean, so many wrong things. There are people like Bono, who use their popularity to promote ideas. He’s talking about the World Bank as well, the debt from the Third World countries, how rich countries make a lot of profit from poor countries. It’s been the problem since civilization existed, like the most advanced technological country will exploit the other ones. It’s always the same story. But, Danny is willing to go out and talk about that, so I’m really curious to see he has a movie about Blues. It sounds great.
C: Yeah, it’s a great movie. MG: We add him with Mia, who has a lot, you know, puts a lot of heart into what she believes in, and she spends her whole life and risks her life going back and forth to Darfur. And, I really admire her for that. And, I saw her, how she put all her energy, and she’s really a strong woman for doing that.
C: I also thought, just seeing both of them in the film, that they would probably have a few films on those shelves in the store. MG: Yeah, yeah. Well, I didn’t want too much to too much self-reflect…I wanted people to forget they are actors.
C: I did want to ask you about MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME. Is that still a go? MG: No, no, I’m not sure what happened to this one.
C: So, is MASTER OF SPACE AND TIME not even a part of your life anymore? MG: No.
C: Okay. Do you have any others lined up? MG: Well, I just shot a film in Tokyo, a triptych with two other directors, Leos Carax and Joon-ho Bong. It’s called TOKYO!, and I have a third of it. And, I think it’s really exciting.
C: Is it a narrative? MG: Yeah, it’s based on a comic book from my friend, Gabrielle Bell. And, she will work with me on the next film I’m working on. It’s called THE RETURN OF THE ICE KIDS.
C: ICE KIDS? MG: Yeah, it’s funny because some people have called it ICE KINGS. Maybe that's a better title. Two kids who are writing a book of peace and have invented a new medium to communicate music. And, this girl who meets them and continues their work and their direction. There is a mixture of poop jokes and very deeply philosophical concepts.
C: That sums you up very nicely! MG: [laughs] Of course, I’m talking about things I know.
C: And, again, pushing the very childlike quality…although this time, you’re actually going to have children. MG: No, they’re not kids as children. They’re youngsters, like late teens.
C: Well, thank you so much for talking with us. I'm a music video geek from way back, so it's a real treat to meet you. MG: That's great to hear. Thank you.

Capone