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Some of Harry's Favorite Cartoons...
Hey folks, Harry here... A lot of folks ask me over and over and over again about my favorite films of all time. It's an old question - it seems if you write about film - it's the question that rules your life. That and, "What's the best movie out to see right now?" - There's nothing wrong with the questions - or any question, but today I received a one-sheet that I bought this past week and in talking to a friend online - when I sent him the image of WOODLAND CAFE - a Silly Symphony cartoon from 1937 - he wasn't familiar - so I looked it up on YouTube and realized... there's a ton of cartoons online and I decided to see if my favorites were up. These are all non-character based cartoons - meaning you won't be seeing Betty Boop, Popeye, Donald Duck, Daffy Duck or any of the familiar characters of the major studio cartoons. These are my obscure favorites. In most cases - I own these in 16mm and have watched them an incalculable number of times. And I figured, if I was going to do that - that I'd share those cartoons with you. So here we go...
BALLOON LAND (1935) Ub Iwerks ComiColor
The Pincushion Man is just amazing - and a world where rubber trees are the basis for life - then the resulting lifeforms are just primed for warping animated glee. LOVE IT!
ANTS IN THE PLANTS (1940) Max Fleischer Color Classics
This cartoon has some of the oddest vocalizations ever - with these first two cartoons - you can see what led to my love of Godzilla films - the idea of something unstoppable threatening a weaker citizenry. I love the Ants' little song, "Make em cry uncle!" Love this...
FRESH VEGETABLE MYSTERY (1939) Max Fleischer Color Classics
Whoever came up with the idea of potatoes as drunken Irish cops - I just love it. The animation is gorgeous - but I love animated tales where things that can't come to life, come to life - it's high carb fun!
SKELETON FROLIC (1937) Ub Iwerks for Columbia - A Color Rhapsody
I love Ub's original SKELETON DANCE that he did for Silly Symphony and Walt Disney - but this very seldom seen SKELETON FROLIC is so much fun. The colors... the Technicolor is just so vibrant and strange. I love it.
THE TELL-TALE HEART (1953) UPA Production (Narrated by James Mason)
I discovered this cartoon when i was buying a collection of 16mm shorts from a fella - he described it to me as being an old High School Educational film telling of Edgar Allan Poe's THE TELL-TALE HEART. Well, I like Poe - so I risked $5 on it. But what I discovered I had was an unbelievably brilliant UPA cartoon that was conceived for 3D - but their budget got cut - but the voice work by James Mason is just shattering. Unhinged. Love this.
LITTLE BUCK CHEESER (1937) Harman-Ising
I saw this as a very little kid - and it's just stayed with me. I love the idea of a little kid mouse looking up at the moon, having heard it was made of Cheese - having read a thrown away edition of the funnies and deciding to build a rocketship. It's sweet and animated so well. Reminds me of being a kid and dreaming of all the ludicrous things we dream of as kids.
CLOSED MONDAYS (1974) Directed by Will Vinton / Bob Gardiner
I love going to art museums - and I've been to many of the best museums in the world - but no matter where in the world I am - I think about this animated film by Will Vinton. To dream of the painting moving, changing, transforming. A great animated film.
TULIPS SHALL GROW (1942) Madcap Models - George Pal
One of the great Puppetoons from George Pal - Produced as the fear of WWII and the Nazis was everywhere. George made this to express how he felt about the German war machine and what it was doing to his native lands. Great.
PEACE ON EARTH (1939) MGM - directed by Hugh Harman
The idea of the forest animals telling stories about the legend of "Man" - chilling. One of the greatest cartoons of all time.
MUSIC LAND (1935) Walt Disney Silly Symphony
I love the idea of this cartoon. Made in 1935 - when Symphonic music was being assaulted by the popularity of Jazz... it's a theme that continues to today - and throughout the generations that always disagree about the "new" music. The animation is beautiful and the music is dreamy. I love this.
If you like this article - maybe I'll do more of these types of things. To me, I love doing this sort of thing - and the ability to share some of my passion for these little seen gems... it's a joy. Hope you enjoyed it!
ANTS IN THE PLANTS (1940) Max Fleischer Color Classics This cartoon has some of the oddest vocalizations ever - with these first two cartoons - you can see what led to my love of Godzilla films - the idea of something unstoppable threatening a weaker citizenry. I love the Ants' little song, "Make em cry uncle!" Love this...
FRESH VEGETABLE MYSTERY (1939) Max Fleischer Color Classics Whoever came up with the idea of potatoes as drunken Irish cops - I just love it. The animation is gorgeous - but I love animated tales where things that can't come to life, come to life - it's high carb fun!
SKELETON FROLIC (1937) Ub Iwerks for Columbia - A Color Rhapsody I love Ub's original SKELETON DANCE that he did for Silly Symphony and Walt Disney - but this very seldom seen SKELETON FROLIC is so much fun. The colors... the Technicolor is just so vibrant and strange. I love it.
THE TELL-TALE HEART (1953) UPA Production (Narrated by James Mason) I discovered this cartoon when i was buying a collection of 16mm shorts from a fella - he described it to me as being an old High School Educational film telling of Edgar Allan Poe's THE TELL-TALE HEART. Well, I like Poe - so I risked $5 on it. But what I discovered I had was an unbelievably brilliant UPA cartoon that was conceived for 3D - but their budget got cut - but the voice work by James Mason is just shattering. Unhinged. Love this.
LITTLE BUCK CHEESER (1937) Harman-Ising I saw this as a very little kid - and it's just stayed with me. I love the idea of a little kid mouse looking up at the moon, having heard it was made of Cheese - having read a thrown away edition of the funnies and deciding to build a rocketship. It's sweet and animated so well. Reminds me of being a kid and dreaming of all the ludicrous things we dream of as kids.
CLOSED MONDAYS (1974) Directed by Will Vinton / Bob Gardiner I love going to art museums - and I've been to many of the best museums in the world - but no matter where in the world I am - I think about this animated film by Will Vinton. To dream of the painting moving, changing, transforming. A great animated film.
TULIPS SHALL GROW (1942) Madcap Models - George Pal One of the great Puppetoons from George Pal - Produced as the fear of WWII and the Nazis was everywhere. George made this to express how he felt about the German war machine and what it was doing to his native lands. Great.
PEACE ON EARTH (1939) MGM - directed by Hugh Harman The idea of the forest animals telling stories about the legend of "Man" - chilling. One of the greatest cartoons of all time.
MUSIC LAND (1935) Walt Disney Silly Symphony I love the idea of this cartoon. Made in 1935 - when Symphonic music was being assaulted by the popularity of Jazz... it's a theme that continues to today - and throughout the generations that always disagree about the "new" music. The animation is beautiful and the music is dreamy. I love this.
If you like this article - maybe I'll do more of these types of things. To me, I love doing this sort of thing - and the ability to share some of my passion for these little seen gems... it's a joy. Hope you enjoyed it!
Readers Talkback
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Harry, you should do more kinds of lists like this. Maybe favorite short films next time?
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Harry, you should do more kinds of lists like this. Maybe favorite short films next time?
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Kind of different but interesting.
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Please.
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There is an episode of Ren and Stimpy parodying this golden age of animation. Utter brilliance in how a 5 minute cartoon can be funny, terrifying, thrilling, sinister and all innocent in one.
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I'd like to see more random acts of film love like this. I think a lot of us are going to geek out over this.
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Harry, these are wonderful! It's postings like this one that remind me why I log on every day ... beyond the news tidbits and reviews, I just love when I log on and find something totally cool like this. Something I've never seen before and would never even hear of if not for you and this site. Keep it coming!
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This is one of your coolest posts in a long time, Harry... Thanks. <br> <br> Classic.
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The Disney version with the narration of Bing Crosby is the best cartoon ever.
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Yep, do more of these, Harry...usually with this kind of post, the talkback is much more civil as people talk about their memories of seeing these as kids and so forth. Plus it gives others a chance to admire the artistry of those animators.
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Too bad YouTube is blocked here at work and I can't watch them now. But I know what I'll be doing when I get home.
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Didn't the King of Cartoons bring that one to Pee Wee's Playhouse in a much edited version?
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this is the best post I've read on this site in 2008. Way better than moriarty's top films, which faults NCFOM for the ending (the ballsiest and most challenging climax in a major release from 2007) and then praises TWBB as his #1, which has one of the faultiest endings of a 2007 release. Weirdly hypocritical. Okay, sorry for the digression. Genuinely pleasurable post for this site. Keep 'em coming.
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That was terrific. Great use of YouTube, the site, and your ridiculously huge knowledge bank, sir.
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No way would a toon like that be made and shown on the networks in today's PC society...it features guns, onscreen death (!), and Scripture. I HIGHLY recommend folks watch it if you've never seen it before, it's awesome.
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My love for vintage cartoons, especially the loony and weird shit, is rivaled only by... wait, nothing. Great read. These are all amazing. Can you recommend specific DVD sets for the non-Disney pieces? (I already own all the Disney Treasures series)
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Great article, full of the kind of passion for movies that built this site. Learned a ton of cool stuff and really enjoyed it. Nice work.
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THAT one will positively haunt you for the rest of your life. Believe me I know. The local CBS affiliate used to run vintage cartoons on weekday mornings about 25 years or so ago and I remember watching this one on television as a kid at a day care center. You know those old photos of the Hiroshima survivors, how they have that dazed and empty look in their faces? That's how twenty-odd children looked after watching Peace On Earth. As disturbing a post-apocalyptic piece of work as any Mad Max or Matrix movie. And rather prescient on very many levels especially in terms of real-world history (I'm assuming this came out just prior to the Nazis invading Poland) and culturally. It's almost a proto-Planet Of The Apes. I can see Charlton Heston now after fleeing the squirrels: "DAMN YOU!! AAAAHHHH DAMN YOU ALL TO HELLLLLLL!!!"
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That cartoon, Bambi, and a few others like it single handedly brought about the whole "man is evil" gaia/mother earth worship that runs rampant. I've nothing against environmentalism, mind you, I'm simply talking about certain philosophies as they were presented in that cartoon.
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Thank you very much, Stalinist left. It's laughable today to think that Hollywood actually once was a place where religion and morality could be looked on as an asset in a film.
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Harry, you have got to do your top Warner Brothers cartoons of all time. The stuff from the insane genuises at Termite Terrace. I am sure there are some Chuck Jones gems in there. Great classic list. The Pincushion Man really creeped me out as a kid. Great to have the opportunity to relive some of these great 'toons.
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Until they brought out the balloon militia.
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This was delightful and a surprise.
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It is an anti-war film in the purest sense, and that is what is so moving and brilliant about it. The true enemy of all humanity is war itself, especially in the nuclear age. It doesn't take a side.
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Was an awesome damn cartoon. I saw that when I was like 5 years old and it fucking chilled me.
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But, as in the case of Peace on Earth, to ill effect. Keep in mind this cartoon was made as something of a protest agaisnt the US going into war against Germany, in effect telling us that Germany and its fascist regime was a european problem, and all that nonsense about Hitler and his racist philosophy and thirst for power was nothing more significant than a debate between meat-eaters and vegitarians. It goes so far as to take an anarchaic and incorrect translation of God's commandment, "thou shalt not murder" falsely displayed here as "thou shalt not kill" and use faith as a cover.<p>Keep in mind that back then, there was a huge movement to keep the US from entering international entanglements and to just stick to our nationalist policies. Even though famous stars, such as Chaplin, and a few politicians, up to and including our own President, warned everyone of the dangers of Hitler and his blood lust, no one cared. This cartoon, through the use of furry cute animals and bible verses twisted out of context, imbodies cowardice, indifference, fear, and the misguided notion that man, through the use of force, is somehow inherently evil.
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join me in overthrowing the tyranny of this monolithic one-party system. There will be pain, there will be sacrifice, and most importantly, THERE WILL BE BLOOD.
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The predatory owls get along with their prey, the field mice and baby squirrels, while man is the one who is depicted as evil. He is, after all, violent. No, this cartoon deffinitely has a skewed sense of priorities and thanks to its overzealous and mindless faith in a misquoted and misused commandment, it reacts to the necessities of life in an unreasonable matter.
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is awesome. Nuff said!
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I had absolutely no idea as to the history there, I just assumed it was made in response to WWI, not as a polemic against WWII.<p>Nevertheless, of all the cartoons I saw as a kid that was the only one I really remembered, it had that much impact. Its message still is dead on--we endlessly invent ways to divide ourselves against each other, and we're our own worst enemy. I'm not saying that use of force is never warranted, I'm just saying that as I've grown older I've come to fully appreciate just how much work we have to do to achieve any kind of peace. In the cartoon peace on earth didn't come until we were extinct.
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Be though that it's a product of the time, I fail to see how Peace On Earth is anything like isolationist propaganda at all. It's simply a morality tale about man's seemingly natural inclination toward killing one another... usually for sake of money and power and sometimes for not even that. That's illustrated when the "Vegetarians" and the "Meat-Eaters" go to war with each other. The whole point is brought home when the owl is flipping through the Bible and there it is: because man failed to rise above his carnal nature, man destroyed himself. He not only didn't heed the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment, he didn't pay attention to the others either, which were *supposed* to lead him away from envy and greed... which eventually *did* lead him to kill. Ultimately those higher ideals that point us to something above our temporal nature are FAR beyond mere "religion". They have to be, otherwise they just become another reason for us to hack and kill each other (witness the modern Mid-East, and even how many Christians have turned on each other over the centuries). In the end, I think that's the message of Peace On Earth: man tries to control other men and is destroyed from it. The animals weren't interested in controlling others, and could live in peace because of that. And I note that as one who *does* realize that there are times when those who do understand that man has a fallen nature, must fight against those who refuse to accept it at all... and even kill them if necessary. Such is the human condition...
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And normally, I would agree with you, save for a few points. How is war portrayed in this film? Yes, it is given gravity and horror, which it so rightly deserves, but it shows the reasoning to be insufficiant. The cartoon's message alludes that all war has insufficient cause and context, hence the meat-eaters v. vegitarianism display. <p>Second, it justifies the notion that all war is wrong through the use of a bible verse we know to be false. Now, it could be true that those who created this cartoon were unaware that their bibles are incorrectly translated, in which case they are simply misguided. However, misguided or intentionally misleading, they are still incorrect, rendering the basis for their position as incorrect. <p>Thirdly, the history of this cartoon coincides with too many events that were occurring in 1939. If you read up on your american history of the time period, there was an INTENSE debate as to whether or not to go to aid the British, our allies, and defend against Nazisim. This debate was waged with greater intensity than the Iraqi invasion debate that occurred in 2002 and 2003. There were dozens of political cartoons and films, much like this one, that ranged from "lets go get em'" to "Hitler is our friend" during the period of 1937 till 1941. Believe me, this was an intentional allusion to the push to go to war and there were many who did not want to fight. <p>Finally, the overall theme of this film is that man is himself a scary monster. He is evil and filled with violence, unlike our small furry, woodland critters. It is they who justly follow God's commandment about not killing. It is they who do not fight. It is they who are not evil, like man. Man is evil because he's violent. And since man is inherently violent, as this cartoon preaches, he must be inherently evil. <p>Believe me, when a kid watches this, a kid who is all of 5 or 6, he will reach the same conclusions that this cartoon WANTS him to reach, the same conclusion that I have laid out to you. It is far more inidious than you guess.
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... was remade by Hanna and Barbera as "Good Will To Men" for MGM almost twenty years later. The same basic story (much of the same imagery right down to the owl with the Bible) but with a decidedly atomic age/Cold War angle to it. It's on YouTube also.
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Does it gt any better than Super Samurai battling his boyhood pal turned bad the Scarlet Samurai?
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Seriously, that is just plain WRONG.
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One of Brad Bird's early masterpieces, only ever seen on a friend of a friend's lame video copy. When're we ever going to be able to get this episode of Spielberg's "Amazing Stories" on disc?
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Cholera's ghost proves my point. As a kid, cholera's most perceived memory is Peace on Earth. And what message did he walk away with? Tha man is inherrently evil. As I said, this cartoon had a far greater intent then to just send a message. Its sole design is to get a generation of kids thinking that war is pointless and that man is ultimately evil and that it is ultimately not as precious as that of animals. As soon as we're off the planet, the happier the world will be. That is the notion that this thing implants into kids.
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That's the most DISTURBING thing that I've EVER seen on AICN. And I've been reading this site literally since its first day!!
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now just get rid of the cum-faced dog in the corner.
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as I'm making them out to be, take a look at Bambi. How many kids changed into anti-hunting and anti-gun sort of people thanks to Bambi? Even now, that moment, when Bambi's Mom got killed, is ranked as one of the most traumatic moments for children.
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With calling men violent and scary, and forcing people to face up to this fact. I did get this message when I was 5, and I am glad for it. It didn't make me think men were "EVIL" whatever that really means, it just made me realize the consequences of holding our ideologies in higher regard than our brothers.
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kept reminding me of Cartman's Woodland Critters. Then that reminded to ask my roommate about his Jew-gold.
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Speaking as a student of film that was kick-ass cinema historiography right there O Redheaded Master and Commander Geek. I've been looking for a sentence to use 'historiography' in... COOL.
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And no, that wasn't a fat joke. I just thought while interesting, this was a funny and strange AICN post. We've gone from STAR WARS EXCLUSIVE to "Harry's Favorite Cartoons". LOL. I'm not knocking the actual content here, because that was some cool shit, but you can't tell me that some of you didn't laugh your ass off at that post title and go, "What???!" Strange. Very strange. Harry, please recruit some more studio spies because while again, this was interesting, it seemed VERY out of place for AICN, what used to be THE place to go for exclusive spoilers or sneak peaks. Instead we get this, as well as regurgitations of trade stories/announcements (Variety, Hollywood Reporter, or other websites). <p> Harry, if you're reading, I'm not trying to be an ass at all. I enjoyed watching these clips. I'm just wondering where AICN is headed and if it is more difficult nowadays to get sneak peak info on upcoming projects. Regardless, you at least tried SOMETHING different... to the snicker of myself and I'm sure others;)
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i love how proud those 2 kids are at the end of the cartoon. you just led a serial killer to your village, who proceeded to wipe out half the population you twats!
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The problem is that not all men are violent and scary. Many of us are good, gentle, and kind. Its true that we do fight, but some fight to protect and to preserve while others are indeed scary and violent. The problem with Peace on Earth, is that all of man is this monstrous, violent animal who kills indiscriminately. <p>And while you made the conclusion that it is horrible to hold your ideologies higher than another man's reguard, what if you have to defend against such violence and bloodlust? In the end, this film alludes that all violence no matter the intent or goal, is as petty as dietary debate. And given the time period of this film, there is a heavy allusion to the "let Hitler do what he does over there" mindset, or as I like to call it, the chamberlain mindset.
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It's called "The Good Little Monkeys" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e81g4hBl19g Check out my cartoon history on myspace: http://www.myspace.com/hour13
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Song of the South? I thought that was your favorite movie of all time?
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Like I said before, I'm not saying violence is never warranted. What Peace on Earth did to me was make me go "fighting over stupid shit is bad, and can have grave consequences." And that's exactly what's going on all over the world right now.<p>As far as not all men being violent and scary, well maybe true. Most of us don't have to be because our needs are met easily. But we do have violence in our natures and to deny this is foolish. We're not "evil" because of this, it's just a brute fact. It wasn't a cartoon that made me draw that conclusion, it was science.
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Peace on Earth debuted in December, I believe, and first began creation when Hitler had already declared his dictatorship a couple years earlier, and had already begun marching into other countries. There was a great and justified fear of Hitler at that time and America was not immune. Just months earlier, the US had declared neutrality, and if I recall correctly, word had already reached political and social elites, like hoollywood, that the Jews were finally getting what was coming to them--no more property or say so in Germany. <p>No, ladies and gentleman, the makers of this cartoon knew very well there was a raging debate about whether to combat Hitler and his nazi thugs. They saw fascism in full flare and chalked up the attrocities, the rampaging nations of Italy and Germany, and the loss of one country after another to Germany and they equated it with nothing more than vegitarianism v. meat-eaters. democracy v. fascism, freedom v. tyranny was nothing compared to one misquoted bible verse. That is why this cartoon is so insidious. Peace on Earth? The real title of this should be "Peace In Our Time." I'm sure many of you amateur historians will know that quote and its significance.
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The struggle is, after all, to change, to learn, to grow. That is the human condition. However, this cartoon doesnt paint man in that fashion. We are always petty. We are always blood thirsty. When just two of us are left, we will still kill one another. And remember, what is the use of struggling against such tyrany, such evil, such base nature, if it is no more important than a versus b? You must follow your bible indoctrination, after all ;)
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there's probably a TB'er with the moniker "Baby Raper"...
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I can see where you are coming from on the cartoon.<p>I guess even then I took it as a parable--a scary one, but a parable. I didn't ACTUALLY believe, even at a young age, that we were in fact just like the men depicted in the cartoon.<p>I think the cartoon worked as a powerful cautionary tale--we must hold the line against falling into warfare for false ideologies. If you are right about the context, however, I would of course not agree with an extreme version of this message, saying nothing is worth fighting over.
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Hey Harry, I drove down from Arkansas to see the Pixar documentary a couple months back that was done by UB Iwerks granddaughter. Both that experience and seeing posts like this one are inspiring. Keep them coming!
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I of course didn't say science proved we were evil. We are hardwired to be aggressive, even violent. That's not evil, that's just survival. But like you said, many people will not make the effort to curb their dark side. We have to deal with the fact that there is such thing as bloodlust, need for dominance, etc. The key is to recognize when it gets taken too far, or for the wrong reasons.
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...and hope to see more like it on AICN. I think this is where Harry really shines as a movie enthusiast - reminiscing about old favorites. Great of him to unearth these forgotten animated shorts, makes me pine for that era of cartoons before computers were used. I enjoyed this.
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In that man's base nature is one of lawlessness, rage, and violence. He's right, of course, as are you, Xiphos in pointing out Man as a species attempts to rise above it and anyone who chooses to not evolve, to grow, is choosing stagnation or worse, to inflict attrocities and harm upon others. <p>Philisophically speaking, man's very nature is to grow, to learn. Learning is what enabled our ability to adapt so rapidly, to survive, and ultimately to thrive. Reason, coupled and tempered by a healthy dose of emotion (but not dominated by it) is the essence of our humanity. In Peace On Earth, our humanity is stripped away with masks and we are reduced to monstrous creatures. We fight, we war, and ultimately we are lost. <p>To put it in another light, were I to make a cartoon about an ethnicity, say...blacks, the first thing I have to do, if I'm to dehumanize them, is to make sure they are drawn not as people but as things, animals, monsters. And make no mistake, there were cartoons that did this very thing, especially in Germany, which had an unquenched thirst for such political rhetoric. Its the oldest trick in the book, realy, for supporting prejudice, whether it be prejudices of gender, race, ideology, or in this case, man himself. <p>Its no coincidence, either, that this message is rooted in christianity, in this case, fundamentalist christianity. Catholicism, during the medeival days, used every trick in the book to keep its subjects doscile and serving. After all, a slave is no good if he thinks he's better than an animal. Art was commissioned, gothic art, that depicted man bent, crooked, and in pain; the very flour of humanity. Christianity, or at least a misguided form of christianity, has always had this defining characteristic: man is evil. Concepts like Original sin, life through faith, and faith through servitude are all very old concepts designed to do one thing: hamper the growth of man. <p>What it boils down to is that the root message of this film is that war, no matter the cause, is inherently evil and that because man is inherently intent on war, man is ultimately evil, an ideology that is as old as man's first twisting of Christianity itself. It then proceeds to implement false representations of The Old Testament, and uses all the propogandist tricks, such as dehumanizing man and anthrapamorphizing cute woodland creatures who actually follow G-d's laws. A child, upon seeing this, is supposed to make the comparison and is supposed to walk away with the notion that man's struggles are pointless, that he is himself inferior, and ultimate, it would be better if he were gone. All hail G-d and His creation. <p>Did I leave anything out?
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the reason why its creators felt the urge to spread it in such a fashion, is because of the signs of impending war that had been laid about the past 2 years, especially during the year of 1939. Ultimately, the creators saw the great debate, the great leaders of this country who wished to fight to stop Hitler, as nothing more than petty, blood thirsty monsters. This was classic Neville Chamberlain style grandstanding and will always stand as an imbodiment of fear, cowardice, and I think ultimately, a deep seeded hatred for man himself.
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So is the Tell-Tale Heart thing. When I first saw this post, I thought it was going to be exceedingly lame, but I am pleasantly surprised by this.
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Exo-squad was the fucking shiiiit!!! Nobody ever remembers it
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made in 1938 after the signing of The Munich Agreement, effectively resigning Chekoslovakia to Germany without the slightest hint of defense upon the part of the Brittish or other allies.<p>"In my view the strongest force of all, one which grew and took fresh shapes and forms every day war, the force not of any one individual, but was that unmistakable sense of unanimity among the peoples of the world that war must somehow be averted. The peoples of the British Empire were at one with those of Germany, of France and of Italy, and their anxiety, their intense desire for peace, pervaded the whole atmosphere of the conference, and I believe that that, and not threats, made possible the concessions that were made. I know the House will want to hear what I am sure it does not doubt, that throughout these discussions the Dominions, the Governments of the Dominions, have been kept in the closest touch with the march of events by telegraph and by personal contact, and I would like to say how greatly I was encouraged on each of the journeys I made to Germany by the knowledge that I went with the good wishes of the Governments of the Dominions. They shared all our anxieties and all our hopes. They rejoiced with us that peace was preserved, and with us they look forward to further efforts to consolidate what has been done." <p>Ever since I assumed my present office my main purpose has been to work for the pacification of Europe, for the removal of those suspicions and those animosities which have so long poisoned the air. The path which leads to appeasement is long and bristles with obstacles. The question of Czechoslovakia is the latest and perhaps the most dangerous. Now that we have got past it, I feel that it may be possible to make further progress along the road to sanity."<p>That was made in October, 1938. In a few short months, Germany would then attack Poland and Italy would begin its conquests. In the summer of 1939, unbeknownst to those outside of Nazi control, the holocaust had begun. However, it had been known for at least 3 years that Jews were already made second class citizens by then, slaves to the state and their properties and belongings were now Nazi properties. This was no secret, nor was the thirst for German Land, a German World. <p>In October of 1939, despite objections made by many leaders, the US declared its neutrality. In december of 1939, long after the debates about Hitler and his threat to freedom, long after his ascension to Dictatorship, long after the rise of faschism and the threats it posed, long after laws were passed which initially created an exodus of Jews from Germany to outlying European countries and even to America itself, long after everything was known, Peace On Earth Debuted.
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Noticed, huh? ;) You'll have to forgive me if I'm off on exact dates, but I kinda did this off the top of my head, with the exception of Chamberlain's speech. I just cut and pasted that one.
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And if I wanted to really dig deep, I could whip out some trusty textbooks and cite day and time of certain things like us telling a ship full of refugees to go back to Germany, the rise of German influence in its attempt to court Hollywood, and, of course, exact counries in order of attack by Germany. If I recall correctly, Poland was attacked sometime in the late summer, possibly september, which triggered the official pronouncemen of WW2. There were, of course, other territories that were attacked before Poland, but that wasn't quite necessary to post this. <p>I just wanted everyone to get a quick sense of the time period and the debates, very, very intense debates, that were raging in the US between 37 and 39. Newspapers were reporting on the goings on, wondering if we would join the fray. Hollywood was being courted by Germany and the "Jewish Question" was being asked in more than a few social gatherings of the time. This cartoon was not made in a vacuum. The creators knew very well the dangers and horrors and instead chose isolationism and the all-too-convenient excuse about G-d's commandment. It was cowardice of the highest order.
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You wanna talk about classic, I'd go with Slappy Squirrel's who's on first parody. Freakin hysterical. http://tinyurl.com/yt2bzs
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I really enjoyed this and plan to watch them all again. I would really like to get a copy of The Tell-Tale Heart piece on 16mm. I am definitely in favor of AICN posting MORE of this type of stuff. Not just cartoons but perhaps rare or unusual themes, mediums, or styles--stuff that people might not otherwise be exposed to.
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After seeing Farewell Uncle Tom at BNAT 9, and since it's come up in this talkback, I wonder if Harry would be up for reviewing some of the propaganda movies that the Nazis made in the 1930s. Everyone knows about Triumph Of The Will (Harry's reviewed it here even, I think) but there are some that are rather lesser-known to modern audiences that would absolutely shock the hell out of ya. I've watched several of them over the years while studying the Holocaust. Jud Suss comes to mind. So does The Eternal Jew. Hell, if you were knocked senseless by Farewell Uncle Tom, The Eternal Jew would probably bring on cardiac infarction. 'Twouldn't be an easy subject matter, but I think this site and its proprietor would be up to the task, given how well this article and talkback have been :-)
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except for avatar they all suck. Step it up, studios.
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On one hand, a generation before, America lost quite a few people in WW1 and on the other, many americans were still in the midst of The Great Depression. All of it added up to one thing for many pseudo intellectuals, common folks, and mroe than a few political leaders: stay away from internationalism. Leave well enough alone and no harm will come to these shores. Another problem was that many people also felt that the great depression and the troubles within it as being the rich people's fault, the bankers' fault, the jews' fault. A lot of anti jewish sentiment arose as a result of the Depression, to say nothing of the feeling that capitalism, democracy, was failing. <p>All of this, of course, was easily manipulated by fascists and, to some extent, communists. In any case, America's isolationism wasn't necessarily related to its anti-jewish/anti-democratic movement, but both served the purposes of the Nazis.
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awesome toons.
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If I were a really good history professor, I would be better able to keep track of exact dates and names of certain historical bills, but alas, my memory is just attrocious. For the life of me, I'm having dificulty recalling the name of the laws enacted by Hitler in 35 or 36 that basically relegated Jews to second class status. Must be getting too tired.<p>In any case, the ultimate point is that with all these rallies going on, all these examples of fascisms impending threat, the worldwide news of Chamberlain's agreements with Hitler, and the obvious enslavement of an entire race of people that was occuring between 37 and the time this cartoon came out, December 39, is anyone really expecting us to believe this was a simple peace cartoon? This was a message, folks, and it was leave Hitler alone, lets hide in our hole, and maybe nothing will get to us. And if you try to stop him, you'll just be evil and a warmongering monster, and besides, its not really that important, after all. Live and let live. Follow the good book and bury your head in the sand. <p>An absolutely chilling message, really. Almost as disgusting as Chamberlain's statement about the "road to apeasement has many obstacles." Peace On Earth is really Peace In Our Time for children.
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Do you feel that "Peace at all costs" is reasonable?
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I sometimes wonder, though, at how lucky we were. What if our Commander in Chief had been a Neville Chamberlain sort? What if, in his short-sightedness, POTUS had decided to only defeat Japan and relegate all that Hitler nonsense to Europe. He could have, you know. Even with that attack, there were many in the US who were denying the involvement of Hitler, questioning FDR's decision to invade Germany/Europe. <p>No, the simple fact was that the US willfully rescinded itself to isolationism, not out of some sort of ideology or newly found piety, but because many americans were afraid. And some, surely, wanted the Jews dealt with, wanted to get back a little of their own.
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put what into context?
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This is one of my favorite cartoon clips ever. Quiet, takes it's time but really impacts me.<br><br> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKRWlswBQDo
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... I really liked this one, Harry. I've been asleep trying to recover all day, and I woke up to a whole fistful of cartoons to watch with Toshi. Nice stuff, man.
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Thank you for the post and the fascinating selection of cartoons. Very, very eclectic.
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I wouldn't even know where to begin. First of all, my criticism of Peace on Earth is just that, a criticism. Yes, Peace on Earth has a lot of historical context, but I dont know how you would insert that into an exncyclopedic article, beyond "there is current criticism that this film was pro isolationism and anti-hitlerian intervention." Who would I cite? Myself? No, the article is fine the way it is. <p>I do know that I'm not the first to have pointed out the sentiments in that particular cartoon; there have been a smattering of debates on the subject whenever AMC airs it and I seem to recall a class or two in which this thing was discussed.
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in WW2. Specifically, he was one of his dozen "secrataries." He even has a few of Eisenhower's stars. I've got them in a case, myself. Guy deffinitely lived an interesting life. A violinist who had a position in Juliard, used to own a stratovarious (which burned in a fire), used to perform the functions of a secratary under Eisenhower, and one of the few guys who could actually beat me in chess a few times. Very, very intelligent fellow.
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... yeah, I just read the talkback as well. Good stuff, and excellent contributions from Moondoggy. I'm sick as shit right now, and this makes for a nice distraction from the violent, explosive... <P>... er, be right back...
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And good luck with your explosive...whatever. I sure hope you washed your hands before typing; I don't wish to catch anything.<p>Don't feel bad, gotilk. My father in-law ended up being a bad father, a bowling-alley addict, and in short, a none-too nice man. The only reason he even slightly warmed up to me was that I was able to consistantly beat him at chess despite being relatively young.
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But I havent spoken to him in about three years. I can, however, answer that for you, if you like. The discussion of other generals, especially Bradley, came up a time or two in our chess games. <p>In simplest terms, Ike was in charge, liked it that way, and felt that Patton was a loose cannon who was capable of actually taking over Ike's job. In simples terms, Ike was a political creature while Patton was solely military. However, Patton's popularity was a threat to Ike, and because Patton was an obvious wild card, Ike couldn't trust him. <p>That said, the impression was that Patton, especially after the battle of the bulge and his reaction upon the initial discovery of a few concentration camps warranted a lot of respect from Ike. Patton was dangerous. Useful, but dangerous.
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was crazy. I myself am qutie convinced Patton suffered from more than a few bouts of dillusion, particularly in his recollections of past lives. I really like Patton, but even I admit that he would be a nearly impossible man to have under your command. You would need him, of course, but you would hate him, too.
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According to my father-in law, the man kept a strong recollection for his staff's names, personal lives, right down to names of pets and overseas wives and girlfriends. A pretty big deal considering his rank, no?
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that is the sort of skill a politician keeps in his employ: the ability to remember your name and private life with a fair amount of clarity. I'm ashamed to admit, its something I started picking up a few years ago, when I was first begain teaching. <p>I used to be someone who could remember a man's face with very accurate detail, but completely forget his name and personal information. After training myself for days, weeks, and months, I finally picked the knack up. Nowadays, I amaze my students that I remember all of their names after the first day, without the benefit of a seating chart.
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I just said he suffered from bouts of dillusion, ie, past lives. I just meant that the general perception was the man was more than a little half nuts. Me, I think he had some weird delusions, but I also think he enjoyed being thought of as crazy; it gave him a tactical advantage. <p>On a side note, although George C. Scott possessed more than a passing resemblance to Patton, the real Patton was almost a foot shorter and possessed a squeaky, reedy voice.
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I hope everyone has a good night. I have to get up in about four hours and I intend to get some sleep. 'night.
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but we need more toon post. How can anyone forget about Tex Avery, only modern day cartoon that comes even close is The Grim adventures of Billy and Mandy, but even they don't touch on topics he did. take this retelling of red riding hood. Horndog woof, sex crazed granny, and a suicide ending. But its freakin hilarious. http://tinyurl.com/2rklks
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You brought back some good memories here. "Peace on Earth" is about as good as it gets.
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Peace on Earth is the only one of those I'd seen before.
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Closed Mondays is my favorite. The expressions on the guys face would not have been easy to do. I loved it!
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Perpetuating a hurtful and racially degrading stereotype that has persisted for decades. How dare you? I jest, of course. We're pissheads. Its just that we get upset when people point it out.
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A fellow potato muncher? Huzzah!
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i love a cartoon called "hand to mouse" about a mouse messing with a lion. if anyone knows where i can get let me know. sucker.............
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Feb. 7, 2008, 6:32 a.m. CST
These are great. My favorite cartoon as a kid was Fleischer's 'S
by Sheeld
About two poor and hungry kids who dream of a magical land where everything they see is made of sweets (kinda like Wonka's main hall). Great atmosphere, wonderfully inventive and a heartwarming finale. Should be a Christmas classic actually, don't know if it is - I used to watch it all the time.
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I must have been 4 or 5 when I first saw this on tv, and it messed me up but bad. The scene of that soldier slowing sinking into the foxhole - absolutely chilling. A classic.
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he puts the joker to shame with the glee he had while murdering those poor balloon people.
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Best cartoon that ever graced a television screen.
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The best one is the Superfriends episode "Superfriends: Rest in Peace" where the Legion of Doom used the Noxium Crystal to kill all the Superfriends (later turning out to be robot duplicates, but for the first twenty minutes of that episode, watching it as a kid and thinking "Oh my God, they just killed Superman!" - very gripping stuff).
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on Pee Wee's Playhouse with the King Of Cartoons..? I'm suprised you didn't include any Ray Harryhausen early fairy tale shorts..
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Disney's Ferdinand the Bull, Lambert, the Sheepish Lion, Paul Bunyon, & The Old Mill. That Fleisher Popeye cartoon where Bluto is Sinbad the Sailor. Here's one I used to love and need to find. A bunch of monkeys in the jungle fight over half a coconut shell filled w/ water because they think it holds the moon, when it's just the moon's reflection in the water. There are tons of others that I'm not thinking of at the moment . . .
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how that brings back all those warm.. eh disturbing.. memories...
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Hey Harry. Ever read a comic book called Little Oz Squad? It has a story set in Balloon Land; complete with a version of Pincushion Man!
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where is the article about your favorite FILMS OF 2007? <br> <br> Did I miss it? What the hell man? C'mon, your contraversial picks are always a great read. <br> <br> I know you had a hell of a busy year but come on!
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Have you ever read Clifford Simak's classic "City"??? If not, it's not long and I highly recommend it. It's back in print in hardcover...I just replaced my copy last year. Similar theme...with dogs...talking dogs, telling stories about the mythical creature called "Man".
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Makes perfect sense... I call propaganda!
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GREAT post Harry. You should do more of these from time to time. All of those cartoons are fantastic. I'm sure there are others that you really like, and I'm sure most of us would like to read more about them or other movies that you love. Obviously, you can't post whole movies, so links to where to buy them on Amazon would suffice. But it is pretty interesting to see your "favorites" regardless of what genre they're from.
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The current animation at the top of the page. Gross and disturbing...but still humorous.
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and if you want to simulate going mad, try pressing play on all of them at the same time.
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The Xbox 360 HD-DVD add-on drive is being sold at a $50.00 rebate and suddenly this is the final nail in the coffin for the HD-DVD format? That may well be a gold medal favorite for this years Hyperbole Olympics.<p> The reason for the slash in price for the addon drive is because it is a PROPRIETARY DRIVE for the 360 console being sold at a HIGHER PRICE than most discount HD-DVD players. This reduction in price is due to the fact that hardly ANY Xbox 360 owners bothered to buy this addon drive because they are using their 360 to play video games, and what movies they DO watch on the 360 are movies they've downloaded to it from the Xbox Marketplace. It was a dumb idea from the get-go, and Microsoft is trying to push out some of the products that aren't selling.<p> In related news, with the conclusion of the NFL season, you can now buy Maddon 08 for HALF PRICE. This surely is the end of the Madden Franchise!<p> This is what happens when idiots are allowed to have blogger accounts. Call your local senators and tell them to vote NO for idiots getting blogs. The second life you save, may be your own.
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I saw that when I was very young, back in the '70's, and it's had a lasting effect on my aesthetic sensibilities as far as horror goes. In that respect, I personally categorize it with Fantastic Planet, although that's a feature and more in the sci-fi/fantasy vein. They are both animated films that freaked me out as a kid in a way that still influences some of the creative stuff I do. Harry put it perfectly describing TTH: Unhinged. One of my favorite things among many featuring James Mason.
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You can't really know what message children (Or anyone for that matter) is going to take from watching any film. My sister and I grew up watching The Wizard of Oz over and over again as kids. As I adults I was surprised to realize that (while we both liked the film) we had both come away from the film with a completely different message/moral. I came away with a positive message. She came away with a negative message
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Keep doing posts like this Harry. It's great to discover (and in some cases re-discover) stuff like this.
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Can't believe you haven't included the magical masterpiece that got Norstein locked up!
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I remember seeing an old Little Mermaid animated film way way back that was done in a similar style to the Tell Tale Heart animated film. It was very dark and expressive, much like Tell Tale. I believe it was from Russia, but it had English dubbed narration. I haven't been able to find it anywhere on DVD...
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I'd like to see some more of these...how about a few live action shorts as well?
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Holy crap, I haven't thought of that Little Mermaid cartoon in years! It was creepy as hell.
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It also works on PCs. I have one hooked up to my HTPC and it works great.
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Pincushion man rules! I need a T-shirt with him on it now!
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i can't wait to watch these toons later when my boss is gone! great article, harry!
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for everyone. They didn't have that mentality of today. Where cartoons are considered childrens programing
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...on the Hellboy DVD of all things. Feckin awesome
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It's good enough for BNAT a couple years ago but not for the list?! I'm still trying to recover from seeing that.
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Thanks for posting these Harry.
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... sheer genius... the animals all living in discarded helmets, the rotoscoped battle sequences, the death of the last human... and that last scene always makes me loose it a little...
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Glad to know someone else saw that Little Mermaid film besides me. Confirms that it wasn't just some weird nightmare I had as a kid...
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Yeah bring it on litle cartoon critters, feel free to diss mankind. <p> Question for you though. Who knittd those nifty little clothes you are all wearing. Here's a clue for you, it was an animal with an opposable thumb. <p> i.e. none of you smug little bastards .
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was on the Hellboy dvd. My wife and just watched a week or so ago, when going through the special features. It was under some sort of "Del Toro reccomends" feature or something like that. The cartoon in question was great. The animation style reminded me of the illustrations in a paperback copy of Bradbury's October Country that I used to have as a kid. Very surreal and evocative, and James Mason's voice is perfection. Actually, this entire post by Harry was a great idea. It allows him to geek out over some cool, obscure stuff, but thanks to youtube we get to see the stuff at the same time, and it allows us readers to feel like we are sharing in the experience instead of being told how great something is that we might likely never see. Peace on Earth is a great little toon, and it's cool to see all the thoughtful discussion it garnered here. I'd definitely love to see more of these. And while we are on the topic of obscure animation, I don't think this was a short but there's a film I recall from my youth in the 80s. It was animated, and Im pretty sure it was Japanese with english dub, but it involved a young lamb whose mother was eaten by a wolf, and he was abandoned. After this, he ended up running into the same wolf who sort of raised the lamb, and helped groom into, basically, a "wolf". It actually gets to the point, said lamb grows into a ram and accompanies the wolf on the raiding of a farm when he finally realizes what actually happened. Anyone else ever see this, and if so, what its called and where I can find it?
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Harry, do you know where I can find that animated version of the Stephen King short story Home Delvery that Del Toro produced(or presented, I don't recall). It was a spanish language short I believe. I saw some animation stills and it looked similar to that long in production flick Nocturna that has yet to be released here. I'd love to see it. Home Delivery was basically King's take on Romero's zombie world and involved the residents of an island who were trying to safeguard their town against the zombie invasion. The short looked beautiful and apparently was also a love story. Anyone have a clue where it is?
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sorry.
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Feb. 7, 2008, 2:44 p.m. CST
brad bird did the FAmily Dog????
by Lloyd Bonafide the Korean War Veteran
thats a fond memory of childhood right there. i used to laugh my ass off. the dog becomes a robber, thats so awesome. im looking for that on you tube right now.
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Should have posted the Satan Claymation and the Diff'rent Strokes Child Molester episode for a more well rounded educational diet.
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Whatever that lamb & wolf feature is, I want to see it now.
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This is a superb post......really fantastic. Two Thumbs up.
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And there I was thinking you were somewhat past your prime. Damn, am I happily wrong. Thanks for this history lesson.
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Wow that was a cool post Harry. I must say my fave is Baloon Land (and the most fucked up lol) and I have no doubt that Les Claypool mustve watched and loved the shit out of Closed Mondays.
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Yes please
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringing_bell.<p>""There's no school like the old school!" - The Incredibles
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I saw a lot of these toons when I was growing up, I love the silly symphonies, balloon land and skeleton frolic. Thanks so much for Tell Tale Heart, can't believed I've missed that one!
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I always hated those little ant assholes. He's an anteater. That's what he does. He's you're grim reaper and what do you do to thank him for bringing balance to nature? You fuck his nose up royally? I like that"Small fry" cartoon where the fish kid skips school to go hang with the grown-up tough fish and they end up sending him into this evil, reforming funhouse that seems like a prototype for the "Pink Elephants" sequence in Dumbo. Also, the sad-sack, constantly bawling Casper the Ghost of the original cartoons is the basis for the Emo "culture", I'm sure of it. He tries to commit suicide but fails because he's already dead. It's great stuff.
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me dumb
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Harry I assume you and I are close in age (I'm 34). How does Watership Down not make the list? I recall being freaked out as a kid watching that film (on HBO), and later on learning to appreciate it as a movie.
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LMFAO every time I see one.
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...just biased movie reviews and rumors (though I do love all that too). <p>There is enough reviewers on here, Harry. Do what you wanna do. It's your site. Let your mental vomit splash upon these pages! Haters be damned!!!<p>*Whoa!* I may have been on here too long. <p>I remember how I felt when I watched some of the American SCHOOLHOUSE ROCK, and some Canadian National Film Board animations, too. They really freaked me out. Same with Sesame Street, with some of the psychedelic animations. Man, they were creepy for a really young kid.
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Well, If it's off the beaten path you want, I'd probably recommend Wicklow. Ya kinda get the best of both worlds, as it's right below Dublin (about a 1 1/2 hour drive) but there's some really cool rural stuff down there. It's great for treks, camping or paintballing as me and my associates do. The people down there are really nice too (even to Dubliners which is unusual) so they'll love you. And sure if you happen to stop by in Dublin itself, look me up. I work in the Screen Cinema on D'Olier St. (phonetically: Doleer). You can't miss it. It's a dump! I'll buy ya a pint!
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This is the best post I've read here in a long time. Really, really great. I've always kinda felt like Harry does better talking about old movies than current stuff. Peace on Earth and Tulips Will Always Grow are both really neat. I remember seeing that Musicland (I know I'm getting some of these names wrong) cartoon on the Mickey Mouse Club when I was a kid, and I always wanted to see it again. So clever. I love how all the instruments "talk" in musical notes. And of course, Balloonland, which we all remember from the original Pee Wee Herman Show. I have that one on DVD (The Cartoons That Time Forgot: The Ub Iwerks Collection, Vol. 2). More please!
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particularly, transformers #1 (with the bill sienkiewicz cover) from back in tha day. seen the gi joes, tho most are unfortunately low-res.
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Feb. 7, 2008, 9:23 p.m. CST
visitwicklow.ie has maps and lists of events and other stuff
by EvilGeek1
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i think animated by a studio other than filmation. vague recollection of a darker vibe compared to the subsequent series. if ne1 knows...
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this stuff is priceless
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Ok. Anyone recall a short 3 minute cartoon which involved a frog, dressed as a bard type character, singing a song with the lyrics "all you need is just some understanding", while leading a parade of other anthropomorphic animals? Its an obscure childhood memory, and its been wrecking my head for years. (Evilgeek, it always used to be played to fill space on RTE on sundays.) Anyone at all?
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on internet tv stations. Loads of classic stuff from the good old days. sure youtube's got a nice collection but it's nothing really new...
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OMG, this was the lamest bunch of garbage I've ever seen. Thanks for wasting 10 minutes of my life, moron. Next time, take your 3 Burger King Super-Woppers, 2 Big Gulps, and unshowered obese blubbery body back to your mom's basement and keep this crap to yourself!
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MGM's "The Hungry Wolf" isn't too well known, but it's easily one of the best cartoons ever. Your mention of "Peace On Earth" reminded me of it (although more in tone than anything else). To make it easier to find: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaCq8K9Zwd8
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that is all.
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Amazing, amazing stuff. There's a tendency now, largely due to how inundated we've been with Disney material over the years, to see their work as cheap, sappy, and hollow, but they really were on the absolute cutting edge of animation right up to the 60s or so.
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Thanks so much for posting these! I have't seen most of them since taking a history of animation class.
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Yes, finally I have a name to put to this anime instead of just "creepy childhood scarring violent lamb movie". And in honor of the Rob Zombie Conan talkback, and partly because its one of two youtube clips I could find, here you go. The second is some daffy song, but gives you a good idea how strange this was, and how cool the animation was. http://youtube.com/watch v=QmwWFgnDvX4&feature=related http://youtube.com/watch?v=zXt97NVbces&feature=related
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Balloonland, in a version taken from the original Cinecolor negatives, is on that new "Saved From the Flames" compilation which has all kinds of nitrate oddities on it. It's a fascinating bunch of stuff-- you'll laugh out loud at the Kirikiri Japanese Acrobats.
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Hope to see more like it.
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but I would like to thank moondoggy and Xiphos for their contributions. I struggle with the idea of when it is appropriate to use force/violence/war. Stopping Hitler from perpetrating genocide is obviously one of those times. But the cost of that war was astronomical. How many millions dead? Perhaps Chamberlain was a pussy but you can't fault someone for wanting to achieve peace. Granted he was more interested in appeasement than peace but if we could have stopped the Holocaust without the war we would have done it. I just think Chamberlain didn't know the extent of Hitler's psychosis. Some people will never respond to the non-violent resistance tactics of Gandhi.
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This is the best you could do with cartoons you must be Old as Shit.
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Old as shit? C'mon. Are you twelve?
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I mean, I know this primarily a news and review site, but stuff like this just has stronger legs to it and actually spurs on interesting conversations in talkback rather than flame wars. Great job, Harry. More, please.
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The problem with Chamberlain wasn't that he wanted peace, but rather, the price he was willing to pay. Chamberlain will always be viewed as a coward because, whether risking everything or no, he was willing to pave the way to peace over the gravestones of his allies. It is for that reason he is viewed as a coward and with a healthy dose of infamy. Appeasement, peace at all costs, is a dangerous road because invariably, the cost becomes your very soul.
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And thanks, everyone for the compliments. Harry did a damn fine job of putting out some interesting material, didn't he? All at once historical, meaningful, whimsical, and relevant. Articles like this bring out not only the critical, but the thoughtful and the curious as well. <p>Besides, it gives old windbags like me an oppurtunity to huff and puff and, if we're lucky, to educate, too.
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That war at all costs, is a dangerous road because invariably, the cost becomes your very soul.
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WW2 proved that sometimes war is necessarry, because the agressor set the whole thing into motion. When that occurrs, those that are seeking to end the war at all costs are not responsible, but rather the agressor is. In the end, were it not for the agressor, the situation would not have occurred.<p>Apeasement, peace at all costs, by its very definition is the willingness to sell everything, to give away everything, including the lives and freedoms of yourself and all those around you, in the blind hope of quenching the thirst of an ambitious dictator. <p>Perhaps it was my fault in using the bumper sticker label of something costing your own soul, but what I mean is that voluntarily handing over the freedoms and lives of millions of people for some vague, undefinable notion of peace is cowardly, and ultimately dangerous. <p>Also, keep in mind that the goal of the allied forces wasn't "war at all costs." It was "ending the war with as little cost as possible to teh allied forces." A subtle distinction in verbage, but not so subtle in application. Hitler beleived in war at all costs. The British, and ultimately the US, believed in ENDING the war with as little losses to allied life, and ultimately human life in general, as possible. That was the tennant, at least, and whether the US lived up to that goal can be debated later, but one cannot argue that this tennant existed.
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is that war should be used as a last resort. I'm mainly reacting to the lack of interest in diplomacy among those in the current administration. <p> WWII seems to be a different animal to me than the situation we are faced with today. Ultimately, I do not think the U.S. is interested in stopping the genocides in Darfur or Burma because we are not directly threatened by it. But for whatever reason, we viewed Saddam as a threat and saw an opening to bring down a dictator and spread democracy in the middle east. It was appraised by those in power to be in our interest to invade. Now, were we the aggressors in that conflict or was Saddam? There are always perceived aggressors on both sides of conflict. The Saudis that crashed into the WTC perceived us as the aggressors. Does that make them right? Obviously I know when we talk about WWII Hitler WAS the aggressor, but today it too often is used as a false justification for violence. And correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Hitler say that everyone else was threatening Germany and that's how he got everyone to go along with him? </p> <p> Besides that, the question for me becomes, "at what point do we intervene?" North Korea is run by a dictator who is basically starving his own people. I've seen images of the children languishing in shit hospitals while Kim Jung Il sits and drinks his bubbly. Aren't we morally obligated to do something about that? What about Darfur? Rwanda? Burma? <p> And what of the cost of civilian life in armed conflict? Since WWII, the amount of casualties of non-combatants (i'm thinking mostly of children) in any conflict is astronomical. That has to be taken into account in any decision to wage war. It's not just that our soldiers will perish, but also complete innocents. </p> <p> Anyways, I know I am out of my league in this debate but I'm interested to see what you think. </p>
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I haven't read through the Talkback, so this may have already been posted. But it's worthwhile comparing and contrasting the 1939 "Peace on Earth" with the 1955 Hanna Barbera remake "Goodwill to Men": http://tinyurl.com/2slsew
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You seem to be doing just fine and you have illustrated THE debate that has occurred since WW2 when using military force is over the question of intervention, specifically the timetable of intervention. Considering the question has yet to be awnsered to any sort of majoral satisfaction, I highly doubt it could be answered here. Hell, you've still got people advocating Isolationism, for crying out loud!<p>In any case, if you will note, I was very careful to not make any sort of modern comparison to that war. Applicability, of course, is up to you, not me. I would be careful, however, in jumping to the WW2= Iraqi war situation, however, because there are a whole slew of geopolitical complications, to say nothing of over 50 years worth of resolutions, treaties, and policies that have been inacted and/or redacted. Be careful. <p>Still, very good questions on your part. I would add that those questions are almost always taken into account of any armed conflict, at least in the more "civilized" countries. Civilian casualties are, of course, a horrible side effect of warfare, but in the end sometimes military actions have to take place, civilians or no. There are hundreds of factors, really, thousands, that are taken into account in warfare and the costs are always astronomical...thats why war is bad. <p>One final note on your comment over agression, fault, and the excuse of war. You are right in that everyone perceives an agressor. After all, everyone thinks of themselves as good, even bad people. However, one has to weigh in the argument that that person/group/governing body is making. Hitler argued that the treaty of Versailes was choking his people and that all Germany sought was living space. However, that treaty, though it employed a series of steep fines upon Germany, was JUST because it was they who started World War 1 in the first place. In other words, Hitler's reasoning for his agression was akin to a man blaming his rape of a woman on the fact that she wouldn't date him due to him being previously convicted of battery and assault. His reasoning simply was flawed, and truthfully, as steep a fine as the treaty of Versailles was, it was far more fair and lenient than it could have been. Germany, though rendered a lot poorer for the affected generation, was still intact. Her military, though allowed to be a fraction of what it once was, still existed. Her people, though forced to work harder and live a bit leaner, was still allowed their culture. No, his excuses were very, very thin and were but a smokescreen for his true motivations: power, pride, and rage. <p>As for our excuse? Well, in the light of a dictator who was swallowing nations left and right and, indeed, the entire world, we knew that we had to preserve democracy, in fact, our very lives. We were faced with an enemy that would not negotiate, that was ravenously intent upon our destruction, seemed to revel in death itself, in fact. In the end, war, arguments for peace or no, was upon us. <p>AS for the whole 911 issue, its true, the saudis that struck us carried out their mission because they perceived our very culture as an anethema to our own. And they were right, of course. Our culture is a threat to the wahabi brand of Islamic faith, which is at its heart fascism--control. After all, how can you control a people, make them happy to be under your control, or what you perceive as your god's control, make them happy to be slaves, when an obviously productive, thriving culture exists that is founded upon the very tenants that you say will undermine your social order?<p>But that is another debate for another day. Suffice it to say that you are indeed correct that everyone claims they are the victim and that whomever they killed needed killing. In the end, you must measure their words against history, current events, and that person/group/government's actions.
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within the historical confines of WWII but I couldn't help but notice that some of the same questions that were discussed back then are being discussed today. I certainly was not trying to imply a direct historical correlation between WWII and Iraq, although some in the administration have done so, even going so far as to reference Chamberlain. <p> As my history professor once said, "history does not repeat itself. But similar circumstances often produce similar results." There is nothing wrong with analyzing trends to apply history's lessons to today's problems, but you are right. I did muddle the discussion a bit. </p> <p> As for the question of intervention, after WWII the same question came up and the Allies formed the United Nations. Theoretically this is a great model for determining intervention. If a majority of nations finds that another nation is abrogating international law and by law IS the aggressor, then after a vote intervention can occur. Not a bad idea. Of course now the UN is criticized as ineffectual and one does not need to look far to find examples of its major systemic failures. I still think salvation for many of the world's current ailments lies in nations working together on a global scale, from global warming to terrorism. We just need a working model from which to do this. </p>
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As you have pointed out, the corruption, the ineffectiveness of the UN has rendered it all but useless. To be honest, I sometimes wonder if we really need the UN at all, but then, those times are usually when I'm in my more cynical, negative moods. <p>No, you didn't muddy the waters. In fact, your pondering of the application of this discussion is only natural; my students make similar comments whenever the subject of US intevention in WW2 arrises. I will tell you, and have told you, what I say to all my students: applicability is up to you. I don't mean that in a sly fashion, as some teachers who present events in such a way as to generate a desired belief. I honestly do mean that its up to you to think it through. There are many facets involved in many events, and the aplicability of lessons learned are entirely up to each individual. My only purpose is to give you an F ;)
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because you can remain so politically neutral in discussions. The students in my class always tried to guess whether our teacher was a Democrat or Republican but we never could. Maddening I say!
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I'm more of your moderate republican. Then again, my wife, who is a big influence on me, is a democrat. I guess we hist profs really are hard to pin down. Ask us a question and we say maybe yes, maybe no.
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Because you can see both sides of the discussion and you see the need for qualifications rather than a simplistic "straight answer". That's why political discussion is so pointless most of the time. It becomes simply a regurgitation of talking points. Sometimes a straight answer is good, but most of the time you have to get nitty gritty and dig down deep into an issue. Only once you've done the real analysis can a simple "theory" or "answer" be given.
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or if you were really asking for my personal opinion, then I could give you an answer "straight." As a teacher, which is kinda/sorta what I was performing as throughout this thread, I have to let you and other readers come up with your own decisions. <p>Personally, I detest qualifications and those that hide behind them so I try to make as little of them as possible.
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but at least it could be backed up with facts and not, as Stephen Colbert says, "truthiness"
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Little Audrey "Butterscotch and Soda" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggp1K5MmoFg) and Fleischer's "The Kids in the Shoe." (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIfQPt2-yVs) I hope you check those out. they're amazing.
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You can be pretty fucking weird sometimes- watching your head lick animated dog balls is kind of ridiculous- but stuff like this reminds me why you're so cool. Only someone who loves movies as much as you can run a site like this : ) You should do another one of these articles for sure.
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I've only seen Peace on Earth so far, but I plan to watch through the rest over the next month or so. More articles like this please!
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WTF?
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Harry, speaking of cartoons you may want to change the animation in the upper left hand corner. The dog with your head on it looks like it is licking itself to ejactulation. Something obviously you would not want on your site as it is in bad taste and goes against your publicly declared religous background.
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With ya, bro. Disney's SLEEPY HOLLOW (not unlike the Tim Burton adaptation) is both, funny and scary. Animation and Croby's narration are top notch. Hell, I just spent $120 for a lobby card on this title (hey, it does feature Ichabod and the Headless Horseman).
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The cartoon is a masterpiece; imagination in lieu of gore (Eli Roth's garbage is cluttering the $1.00 bins; HEART will survive indefinitely).
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Harry, Thanks for swapping out that cartoon and so fast! The Camel riding Harry is much better.
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How you fuckers get blank lines between paragraphs. <br> Eventually. <p>Even if it takes all fucking day</p>
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CemGrf <a href="http://hslbax.com/ ">JtoscM</a>
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LqLMbLCN <a href="http://hbqlky.com/ ">NOoFaSnN</a>
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