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PART II of CORDWAINER HAWK's "Crusade" episode reviews !!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Glen here...
...with Part II of
CORDWAINER HAWK's review of four Crusade
episodes.
Cordwainer's reviews represent his own feelings and his
own thoughts about this new Babylon 5 spinoff series. Having seen all the material
he is reviewing (and more), I personally have some substantially different opinions about much of
what Cordwainer says, and about the show in general. As such, Cordwainer's review should be
seen as Cordwainer's review - and not the official position of Coaxial.
Videotape
Some months ago I reviewed the script for "Racing the Night" You can access that article
HERE!
I feel I did a reasonably good job going over that episode in that article and the changes
between the script, and the final-polished-ready-for-air episode are only minor alterations. And
those alterations are all improvements.
(By the way, thank you to the official Babylon 5 Monthly magazine published by Titan in the
U.K., for quoting from my first "Racing the Night" review in their issue with Londo on the cover. It’s
much appreciated. I enjoy reading your journal every month.)
First things first. There are some internet sites that have the opening credits montage slightly in
error. Well, here’s how it really goes:
** Crusade appears in the Crusade font. A sword moves from a vertical position to
horizontal, then:
** Excalibur passes quickly through screen moving from the left to the right side of the screen.
White letters come on screen, as Galen says, "Who are you?"
** Gary Cole’s name and image comes up as he says, "Matthew Gideon, Captain, attached to
the Earth Alliance Starship Excalibur". And we see images of Gideon in action.
** Galen and white letters: "What do you want?" Gideon says over images of the Drakh ships
releasing the plague from A Call to Arms, "To find a cure to the Drakh plague before it wipes out
every life on Earth."
** White letters and Galen again: "Where are you going?"
** Images of exploration, the crew searching with flashlights in a dark area, Gideon and
Dureena in EVA suits, ships landing at the Drazi homeworld space port, other alien, mystical looking
vistas as Gideon says, "Anywhere I have to."
** Galen and the white lettering: "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" A quick shot of
the EAS Medusa in orbit of a planet, and then Tracy Scoggins as Lochley standing on the bridge of
Excalibur. Some images from "The River of Souls".
** The music takes a turn in tone here, to a more upward rock kind of beat, with strong bass.
Lt. John Matheson mouths the words, "fire" and then a shot of the Excalibur firing the big main gun.
** Then Matheson on the bridge walks to Gideon as the name Daniel Dae Kim appears.
** Then comes Max Eilerson played by David Allen Brooks. We see him doing archeology.
And looking serious. And a shot of him dancing with Dureena in a club. Dureena does not look like
she’s enjoying the dancing all that much.
** Then Peter Woodward as Galen pulls back his cowl.
** Then Marjean Holden as Doctor Sarah Chambers.
** And then finally, Carrie Dobro as Dureena Nafeel.
** Excalibur slowly passes through frame as Galen says: "Who do you serve? And who do you
trust?" And the words, "Created by J. Michael Straczynski" appears and we fade out.
I think it’s a very cool and beautiful opening credit sequence, brilliantly created by
Straczynski/Copeland. I think it’s the best one they’ve ever put together.
The music by Evan Chen has a mystical quality that captures the feeling evoked by the images of the
show. (This is interesting because he composed the music before they had finished editing the
sequence.) And it has a very rock and jazz sounding beat… in fact you might even be able to dance
to it. I think Chen’s music is the right music for Crusade, just as Christopher Franke’s music
was right for Babylon 5. But, Crusade is a new show, about going to new places,
so it needs a new sounding musical style. And Chen has created some incredible music for this
series.
Chen makes great use of syncopated rhythms. The music has an up-tempo, but it also has an
undercurrent that expresses the desperate nature of their mission, and it expresses a sense of hope.
The music carries a feeling of adventure, and discovery. Evan Chen is to be congratulated for this
excellent achievement.
Then there is a brief piece of music in-between acts 1 and 2, that serves as music for the
"bumper" - a brief appearance of the Crusade sword and DNA logo. Chen composed a
brief piece of music for this, which evokes the main theme. And the closing theme music is more
up-tempo, and also recaptures the rock tone and epic quest thematic with nicely incorporated
syncopated rhythms yet again. (Let’s hope TNT does not ruin it with a credit shrink or annoying
voice over. The artist took the time to compose the music; people should be able to hear it. Plus, all
the people who worked on Crusade deserve their credit, deserve their names to be seen
and they deserve that appreciation for all the hard work they’ve put into the series. So, don’t shrink
the credits.)
The visual effects in "Racing the Night" are amazing. The massive alien city, with towering
majestic looking buildings. Buildings with a very alien architecture unlike anything I’ve seen on TV
SF before. And the shots of Gideon flying on his skimmer bike over the city’s streets are a perfectly
executed sequence. Even more so, at the end of act 1, when Gideon is caught in a very exciting
chase sequence. (By the way, I think Gideon’s leather jacket is way cool. I want one.)
"Racing" is chalk full of great visuals. Wait to you see the way the Starfuries and Thunderbolts
launch out of Excalibur. And a massive space battle is nicely orchestrated. Excalibur is an awesome
ship.
When I watched "Racing the Night" with my friend Deforest, when he saw the fighters launch he
said, "Oh yes!" It’s rather cool.
((Glen Note: Cordwainer is referring to a retractable "rack system" which drops out of
Excalibur, spins off multiple space fighters in different directions...))
Deforest is a long time fan of Babylon 5. He’s watched every episode of
Babylon 5. He feels Babylon 5 is his ultimate, favorite television series. (And he, like
me, does not watch much TV in the first place, since most of what’s on these days, sucks. I mean, I
try to catch X-Files and Fraiser every week, but that’s about it.)
When we finished watching "Racing the Night",and "The Well of Forever" he said: "This is better
than Babylon 5. TNT is insane. They are incompetent."
I understand what he means by "better." Crusade is on a more personal level, a more
personal quest. B5 was about large events, a large future political history, with personal stories. (And
obviously the Sheridan/Delenn story was quite a personal arc of B5.) But, Crusade just feels
closer, more intimate. It’s as if with B5 you were in a large concert hall, sitting somewhere toward
the middle, and you listened to a grand symphony.
While Crusade often feels like a grand symphony, it’s more like it’s jazz, in a small night
club, and you’re sitting right up there close to the stage and really being a part of the music. And I
think that’s what Deforest meant.
With Crusade the personal stories, the personal quests of the characters, flow into their
overall epic quest.
Plus, every writer and artist should always be improving. I think this is the case with Joe
Straczynski, and the production team. His writing is at top form, and the production qualities have
never been better. Plus, this is just one hell of a cast they’ve put together.
"Racing the Night" is an action episode. But, it has strong character moments, as well as a great
ending scene, that’s just perfect, and will give viewers a sense of… oddity, mystery, and questions…
And it should also tell you something about Gideon, and how he gambles, and who and what he
trusts… or may not trust.
The actors are all excellent. Some stand out more than others do. Matheson really does not
have much to do in Racing the Night, but from what’s there, you can see he is young, learning, and
devoted to Captain Gideon.
Dr. Chambers also does not have much to do in this episode, but quickly we find that she’s
subtle, and does not care for Max Eilerson all that much. (Other episodes showcase her much
more.)
Max Eilerson the IPX archeologist wonderfully played by David Allen Brooks, is a man of
incredible intelligence, but little wisdom. Brooks does bring some heart to the character, and makes
him oddly likable, even though he’s a greedy bastard. (Based on TNT suits one wonders?) Brooks
is clearly an excellent character actor. Even though Eilerson is amoral, he is also rather funny, often
with a dry wit. And he is single-minded in his greed. Oddly, he’s becoming one of my favorite
characters.
Dureena, the thief, is much like she was in A Call to Arms: Strong willed, and passionate. Her
relationship toward Galen is one of interesting conflicts. She wishes to learn from him, but what will
she teach him?
Galen commands attention in almost every scene he is in. Peter Woodward is a brilliant actor.
Galen will be as popular as G’kar, or Kosh were. Peter Woodward brings real texture and deep
humanity to the role of Galen. Like so many British actors, he communicates so much just through his
eyes. His deep friendship with Gideon is really at the heart of the series. Galen is a mysterious
character. Perhaps he has more secrets than the others do… but they all have secrets.
Captain Matthew Gideon played by Gary Cole is a leader of subtlety. He’s not a screamer. But,
he is commanding, in a strong, determined way. He will stand up for his crew, no matter the cost. He
will do anything he has to, to get his mission accomplished. He takes risks and he gambles. He’s
highly intelligent, and deeply human. And he’s a man seeking faith, seeking something to believe in,
and seeking an answer.
He has not decided what he believes in. But he does not like it when innocent people die - it’s
almost as if he takes it as a personal insult. He also has his secrets, and his own unique sources of
information. Perhaps he’s even haunted to a certain extent. (In "The Well of Forever" he is seen
touching a photograph of the crew of the E.A.S. Cerberus. I’m sure his history with that ship will be
explored in other episodes.)
"Racing the Night" will air as the 8th episode of Crusade.
When the tape rolled forth, after "Racing the Night" ended, "The Well of Forever" came up next.
I knew nothing of "The Well of Forever". I had read nothing about it. I never read a script for this
episode. I was tabula rasa.
As I said, my friend Deforest watched the episodes with me one night. He gave me his views, as
a fellow B5 fan. And he loved both episodes. And he liked "The Well of Forever" even more than
"Racing the Night".
On another day, I had my friend Bragi Taliesin come over and watch Crusade with me.
(Yes, that’s his name. I live in California after all.)
Bragi has never seen any of Babylon 5. He loves science fiction, but mostly through
reading. He especially loves the books of Robert Heinlein. Bragi is also deeply aware of and
interested in mythology.
So, first I showed Bragi "A Call to Arms" to set the stage. He liked "ACTA" particularly for
Galen, as a Merlin figure.
Then I showed him "Racing the Night". He liked it a lot too. Especially the character moments,
and the ending. And he appreciated the SFX, and as a musician he really responded to and relished
Evan Chen’s music. Bragi also responded favorably to the intelligent dialogue.
Then "The Well of Forever" came next. At the end of it Bragi’s eyes were wide, his mouth agape.
He said, "That’s the best thing I’ve seen on television… in I don’t know how long! I can’t tell you
how long it’s been since I saw something that good… That brilliant."
I agree with Bragi. Of the four Crusade episodes I’m intimately familiar with, and of the
4 others I have at least passing plot knowledge of, "The Well of Forever" is the best episode of the
lot.
"Well" will air 3rd and airs on June 23rd. "Well" was brilliantly written by Fiona Avery. Clearly Fiona Avery is an excellent and gifted writer. And this is one amazing and
emotional episode.
But, I can understand why TNT may not have liked this one. No one fires a weapon. No
fighters are launched. Nothing gets blown up. There’s no wrestling. There is actually some sex, but it
may not be exactly what TNT wanted or had in mind. Even Galen says "Well, that was not quite the
first contact scenario I had envisioned."
But, what does this episode have?
Heart, soul, and emotion. That’s what it has. Act 4, is a pure work of beauty. The writing,
acting, the visuals, and the music come together and make art, amazing art.
I’m not going to overly spoil this episode for you. You just have to see it.
But, the basic plot is this: Galen convinces Gideon to go on an arduous, many days journey through
hyperspace to find The Well of Forever. A crossroads Galen says, like Stonehenge or the Oracle at
Delphi. Gideon is not convinced easily and Max especially thinks it will be a waste of time. But
Galen tells them that there could be valuable information there that could be useful in their search for
a cure to the Drakh plague.
So, Gideon agrees to go. Also since Galen is going to merge his personal flyer’s navigation
system to Excalibur’s Gideon thinks it’s a good chance to get a sneak peak at Technomage
technology. Gideon and Dureena know Galen is not telling them everything about his reasons for
wanting to find the well. But, Galen and Dureena both decide they trust Galen. But, how far will
Galen go to achieve what he wants? What is he willing to sacrifice to find the well? The answer is…
everything. Why… becomes the question.
Meanwhile, Lt. Matheson has a guest on board, Mr. Jones who is a "Watchman", a telepath.
Watchmen work for the "Senate committee on meta-sensory ability" (but I presume the Watchmen
are head quartered on Mars, or perhaps the moon, or some other Earth colony.) He’s on Excalibur
to exam Matheson, with a deep mind scan. Matheson must submit to deep scans every 6 months to
check to see if Matheson, who is also a telepath has done any illegal scans of others. This is the new
arrangement since Psi-Corps has been disbanded. Telepaths can do any job they want to achieve,
but they must submit to the scans every 6 months to check up on them, to make sure they are
integrating into normal society properly.
Mr. Jones is not a nice guy, and Jones invades Matheson’s privacy when doing the scan, and
threatens Matheson’s career. And in this episode, I discovered that Matheson is an excellent and
interesting character. Plus, Daniel Dae Kim is really an excellent actor. This is one cool character,
also emerging as one of my favorites. And the relationship between him and Gideon is close, deeply
and mutually loyal. There’s clearly a deep friendship between the two. Perhaps Matheson looks up
to Gideon as a mentor, or older brother. And Gideon protects Matheson like a younger brother and
loyal friend.
(By the way, this was the first Crusade episode I’ve seen with the new, permanent, black Excalibur
uniforms, and they are way better. Quite an improvement. Plus this episode shows off the new sets,
and gym and they are impressive sets.)
So, another cool element of "The Well of Forever" is watching how, and to what lengths Gideon
will go to, to protect his first officer. Gideon trusts Matheson, and Matheson trusts Gideon.
"Who do you trust," is a major theme in this episode.
But, when Excalibur finds The Well of Forever…and in act 4, we find out why Galen wanted to
find the well so much. …I encourage all of you who want to see this episode, to avoid the spoilers.
All I want to tell you is that you will learn a great deal about Galen. And you will experience an
emotionally moving sequence, which is devastating in its power. (It’s hard to find something to
compare it to, but elements of "The Well of Forever" are on the same emotional level as parts of
"Sleeping in Light". Perhaps not at the "Sleeping in Light" level, but reaching toward that level.)
Another mythical element of this glorious forth act, is that you will find a lot of Celtic mythological
themes. And Galen even mentions Nordic Runes. It’s intelligent, spiritual, and astoundingly
emotional.
In the tag of the story, Matheson has a great scene, which shows you the level of trust between
Matheson and Gideon. And in the gym set, as Gideon exercises, Galen comes to talk to him, about
what they’ve just been through.
Their conversation is incredible. It’s at such a level of intelligence, and deep truth… And that
conversation ends with one hell of an emotional punch, which really expresses what it is to be human,
as Galen and Gideon discuss their mutual crime.
I was personally blown away by it.
A final scene between Galen and Dureena closes up the story. Galen had told them the well would
answer their questions. Dureena wants to know how it did so. Again, another great piece of writing,
and acting, as Galen describes how Max Eilerson, Matheson, Gideon and Dureena got answers to
their questions.
Dureena asks, "What about you, did you get your answer to why?"
Watch the episode. Watch Galen’s answer. Watch his face as he moves off screen, and the episode
fades out.
It’s brilliant, it’s moving, and it’s so human.
"The Well of Forever" was written by Fiona Avery, and directed by Janet Greek.
Congratulations to both are in order. Also, in this installment Evan Chen’s music reaches emotional
highs that are immensely touching.
After this episode you will find yourself asking questions, questions to you, and about yourself.
But, you will also want to ask questions to TNT. Or at least one question to TNT: Why? Why don’t
you appreciate this series? Oh, that’s right, I forgot TNT is soulless. And that’s why.
"The Well of Forever" is one amazing piece of work and art. I've watched it countless times now,
and each time it does not fail to move me.
Closing
In the end, musician Robert Fripp said it best: "Committees are stupid, and the death of the
creative process. …Any culture whose artists are directed or controlled by commercial interests is in
mortal danger."
Because of TNT, and others with their mentality, I fear our culture - such as it is - really is in
mortal danger.
JMS is to be congratulated for sticking to his principles, for not giving in to TNT’s egregious
demands and for not selling out, or selling his soul. He stayed true to himself and his vision for
Crusade.
One falsehood often ascribed to JMS is that he does not want to alter or improve upon his
writings. Horse shit. He’s more than willing to make changes, as long as they are changes he sees fit
to make.
An episode changes from the script, to the production, to the editing, and the final post work.
It’s all about rewriting and refining the creation. That’s a process every artist goes through. What
JMS is opposed to is incorporating bad ideas into his creation… ideas that come from a corporate
committee that knows nothing about art, literature, or creativity. They get their so-called "ideas" from
focus groups, surveys, and market research. Imagine if Shakespeare or Van Gogh had to deal with
that. TNT should have acted as a patron.
They should hire the artist, and then leave the artist alone, to work and create only to the sound
of his own heartbeat. JMS said he’d give you an action/adventure drama series. He did so. Why
interfere with his creation?
Does he interfere with your corporate budgets? Does he tell you what stocks to buy? Does he
give you his opinion on your mergers? Does he check in and see how much money per month you
suits spend on prostitutes? No, I don’t think he does.)
Most other producers and production companies would have given in to TNT, in order to keep
them happy, and keep making money. Most others would have sold out for green. JMS didn’t. John
Copeland didn’t. Babylonian Productions didn’t. They are an island of ethics surrounded by a sea of
sharks.
And their vision, Crusade, is a brilliant, intelligent, entertaining, emotionally moving, and
an utterly compelling creation in terms of its plots, but most especially in the form of the characters.
They are each quite interesting and touching in their own unique ways.
They are intelligent, flawed, feeling, conflicted, and deeply human…
Yeah… I understand why TNT does like this show. Sadly, I do.
I hope Crusade gets more than 13 episodes. A journey has begun, and I hope it gets to
continue. But, this show is too good not to continue, one hopes.
Tune in to it on June 9th. (Especially if you are a Neilson family.) And after you see it, write to
Warner Bros. and the Sci-Fi Channel. If you want to spend a few bucks on a print advertisement, I
don’t see any harm in it. After all don’t the suits claim they are only giving us the TV we want? Well,
if you want to see a cool, intelligent SF series about grand quests then you should let them know
what you want.
Because in the end, everything comes down to who we are, what we want, who and what we
serve, and whom we trust.
Why? …There’s that question again.
Perhaps these are questions TNT suits, and advertising slaves don’t want to think about in their
lives, their lives in service to greed and money.
As Dureena says, "it’s nice to know that some people care about things other than money or
power." And the writers, crew, and brilliant actors of Crusade took the time to create
something worthy of our time, attention, and praise. They created something fun, entertaining,
interesting, intelligent, and artistic. And all TNT could do was spit upon them.
Something is wrong.
But, Crusade gives me hope, that perhaps sometimes things can be all right. And
maybe for once the good guys can really win. In the end Crusade really is about hope.
And in a time like this, we need messages of hope more than ever.
So, in the spirit of Crusade, let’s hope for new beginnings, and a new home for this
excellent series.
The End
CLICK HERE to e-mail
CORDWAINER HAWK, the author of this article!!!
((Glen Note: Don't go askng him for copies of these tapes - it ain't gonna happen, as
Cordwainer knows a thousand terrible tragedies will be visited upon him if he lets these out of his
possession...))
___________________________
Here are the oft-requested links for the primary Save CRUSADE sites -
dedicated to
keeping the series on the air after it expires its initial 13 episode run on
TNT!
Cordwainer knows a thousand terrible tragedies will be visited upon him if he lets these out of his
possession...))
dedicated to
keeping the series on the air after it expires its initial 13 episode run on
TNT!
Crusade - The
Quest for Life
Crusade for
Crusade
Glen
Or call:
(512) 347-1992
Mail can be sent to:
Glen Oliver
P.O. BOX 160812
Austin, TX 78716-0812
USA
P.O. BOX 160812
Austin, TX 78716-0812
USA
Austin, TX 78716-0812
USA
USA
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Nice reviews of the four episodes.
What are really good are the points made about TNT. They just didn't get it and if they want their "wrestling meets Baywatch in space" show, they should find a producer that would be more than willing to make it. That's not the show Straczynski wants to make (although if he did do one, it would probably be a hoot).
I've seen episodes other than the ones reviewed here and those hold up quite well. "The Path of Sorrows" is a good character episode (and one that TNT didn't want them to do) and "The Long Road" takes full advantage of guest star Edward Woodward.
I think Galen will be the favorite character of most viewers (and at least TNT seems to agree with Galen being front and center on the promo artwork). With the smaller core cast, we'll get to know a lot more about the main characters than we did on Babylon 5.
The real test and deciding factor of the future of Crusade will likely be how many Neilson families tune in the first couple of weeks (and the amount of dropoff from the debut). The Sci Fi Channel is interested, but the USA Networks bean counters have to be convinced its worth the money. TNT isn't going to buy more even if the ratings are embarrasingly good. The only way it would continue on TNT is if the ratings are so good that certain suits lose their jobs because of it. I don't think that's going to happen. All we really need is for Crusade to get respectable enough ratings so that the Sci Fi channel
can justify picking it up. Considering their new Friday night shows are already down to a 1.0 rating or less, even a 2.0 on TNT might be enough for SFC to go for it.
So be ready to send off those letters to the Sci-Fi Channel and the USA Networks head honchos to let them know you want to see more.
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I haven't even seen the promos for "Crusade", but already you've got me drooling. With all the low-quality rubbish that's on nowadays, it's always a joy to watch a truly intriguing show. And the 'suits' at the networks are fools if they let this one slip through their fingers.
With all the embittered complaints we've been hearing lately about how degrading television is, you'd think they'd jump at the chance to put some good material on.
Kudos for a great set of reviews,
- Dawn -
Has anyone else here recogninzed the recent trend created by B5. Successful tv shows are the ones that great mythologies, like DS9, stargate, buffy, hopefully crusade, and x-files. I think the age of episodic story telling. The new fad is intellectual storylines, at least in terms of sci-fi for the next few years. Arcs are the in thing, until something new comes along. The days of star trek story telling are over, as seen by the pathetic attmept of voyager to talk down to their audience. Arcs in the hand of talentless hacks are bound to fail, as is the case with Sliders and Voyager.
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Babylon 5 was different from every other sci-fi show that I have ever seen. I watched Sliders for a while, but was never that impressed with it. Star Trek held my attention for a while, but as I look back, it was frustratingly inconsistent. For every great episode of DS9, there was a friggin' Ferengi episode which looked like Laurel and Hardy do Sci-fi. B5 broke the mold for me. I love reading, and B5 was like reading a great novel without actually having to read. You can make snide remarks about the character's acting background, JMS working on Murder she Wrote, or whatever. I am hardly a drooling B5 fanboy, but you have to recognize that this show did bring new interest to science fiction. Now Crusade comes along, and you have to be wondering what the hell TNT is thinking? They hate not having creative control, fine, but to dump the last good show on their network is nothing more than mindless pandering to the lowest common denominator of Wrestling and basketball fans. But hey, I like wrestling and to a lesser extent basketball, but the fact is, too much of it is mind numbing. Maybe Crusade survives, maybe it doesn't. Maybe it will be horrible, but the fact is, we will probably never know, and that's a shame. Too many things have already conspired to doom Crusade, in a perfect world, JMS would have a big budget and full creative control. But that is not the way the entertainment industry works, so now we can only watch and hope, but remember, B5 fans, Faith Manages
-CS
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I've think I've made my opinion of B5 known before, so I won't get into that now. And I don't believe a word of what Cordwainer Hawk claims for Crusade. Still, lots of well-intentioned, red-blooded Americans want this show to run the full five seasons of its story arc, and are willing to fight for that. It's not my fight, but - Good Luck and God speed, guys, and may Crusade prove worthy of your crusade to give it life.
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Folks, B5 wasn't the best written TV show to ever appear on American Television, Arcs are NOHTHING NEW, many shows used them, the ONLY DIFFERENCE was he took 4 years to do what others could have done better in two or less years.
Was it as well written as say "The X-Files", "Law and Order", "NYPD BLUE", "DS9", etc..
IMHO no, JMS isn't that good even on his best day.
Also, as it turned out, the show we saw at the end was nothing like JMS had envisioned at the start of Year 1.
He blew his original ending in "War without End" to cover Michael O'hare's firing.
And wrapped his grand 5 year plan by the end of Year 4 because he knew the game was up, the TNT pick up for year 5 as it turned out seems to have been a rather bad idea. "Remember Byron?"
As far as Crusade in concerned, I saw RACING THE NIGHT and IMHO the only mistake TNT made was not demanding changes EARLIER then they did.
That show was MAJOR PROBLEMS, starting with one of the worst title sequences I've ever seen in my life. If that is what they're sticking with, I can hear people changing channels the first night about 40 seconds into it.
And where did they find ORAC?
And will they get the COSMO DNA back to Earth in time?
:-)
Also, we know from SLEEPING IN THE LIGHT that the Plague is cured and earth lives.
Kind of undercuts the entire permise of the series from my POV.
TNT was right on the money that it needed changes in order to appeal to a borader audience, other then just fanboys and girls.
And what amazes me is that Mr. Hawk seems so pissed over the simple fact that TV is a business,TNT has to look at Demos and ratings decide TV shows live and die. that's just the cold hard turth.
Some folks have alot of trouble dealing with it.
CRUSADE, Unless it gets the best ratings in the history of TNT is DOA.
that's life in the big city. -
Hey, FordaT, I think I remember you from my old usenet days back in '94... Heh, almost makes me nostalgic. :-)
From what I can see, you opion about Babylon 5 has not changed. You always hated it (that was my impression anyway), and I have always loved it. So if anything, your post reassueres me that I WILL like Crusade! Thanks! :-)
Oh, and regarding the TNT changes you said should have been done earlier - I dont really think you actally believe that the changes TNT had in mind would make ANY show better, or do you? (Unless you are a wrestling fan, of course)
- EuroSnob
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To B5 fans who read the above and feel compelled to release the flamethrowers...chill. I remember Thaxton's posts in rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5. Even that long ago, farther back than season 3, he's had a chip on his shoulder and a beef with JMS. It's a classic Ford post, right down to the use of the term "fanboy". Ford, along with a few others, spewed gallons of vitriol directed at JMS, diehard fans (the "fanboys" he speaks of), JMS, the show, JMS, you get the picture. It reached a point where Joe wrote a couple...unstable...posts to the newsgroup. How much did Ford and his crew annoy him? Remember that card at the end of "Deconstruction of Falling Stars", the one that says "Dedicated to all the people who predicted that the Babylon Project would fail in its mission." Care to guess the name of one of the people that was directed at?:) Anyway, old Usenet flamewars aside, we've seen Cordwainer gush all over it, and now we've seen Ford s*** all over it...now we just need the third edge of the sword (think Koshisms:), and all will be clear.
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You know, am i the only one who is going to question his character at to weather or not hes the captain of this ship cause hes a great guy, or does he have some sinister reson for doing it, like hes taken comand as a favor to someone who will owe him a favor "down the road a bit" Will i be the only one who whenever the captain gets mad and orders the destruction of some alien bad guy, will be wondering if the captain secretly revels in being alowed to let his dark side out? Will i be the only one who wonders at the end of every new plot twist, "how does this benifit the devil"?"what are his reeaalll motives? hmmm... prolblbly, god i love the casting of this show. I really do like Gary Cole, he has so much...presence... Just a thought from a devoted B5 fan as well as an American Gothic lover.
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"I can see, you opion about >Babylon 5 has not changed. You >always hated it (that was my
>impression anyway), and I have >always loved it. So if anything, >your post reassueres me that I >WILL like Crusade! Thanks! :-)
You deserve what you get.
changes you said should have been >done earlier - I dont really >think you actally believe that >the changes TNT had in mind >would make ANY show better, or do >you? (Unless you are a wrestling >fan,
And you'd be mistaken. We only have JMS's highly suspect and biased statements on the issue as to EXACTLy what changes they wanted, by all accounts the changes to the sets and costumes wanted by TNT were an improvement.
TNT was looking for a show with a broader appeal then B5 ever had.
And it might surprise you that TNT is alot more then "Wrestling", have you ever looked at their programming??? They have produced some stellar movies and mini-series,etc..
I See a small uninformed B5 fans attacking them over a show that 99.999 percent of them haven't seen yet is pretty stupid based solely on JMS's own self-serving statements.There is alot more to this story then has come to light to date and I suspect it's not a pretty story.
IMHO of course -
Hey Ford, good to see you back. I was always amazed at how a single post by you could cause dozens of JMS worshippers to have heart attacks. It also amazes me that all these B5ers think TNT should be honored to have B5 on it's network. I hate to break this to the fanboys, but it is the other way around. B5 fans should be praying to Ted Turner, not JMS, for saving their series. As for the Crusade series, I suggest renting StarBlazers tapes to tide you over till Crusade premiers.
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Please correct me if I'm wrong,(It's been a long time since I saw "Sleeping in the Light") but DO we really know for sure that the mission succeeds? Do they actually say in the episode "The Excalibur mission succeeded."? It could be that they failed and billions died, except for a few hundred thousand who were resistant to the virus. Besides, it's not the ending that counts, but the ride that takes you there. We all knew who won the battle of Gettysburg, but that doesn't mean we weren't interested in the movie.
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I was a lurker on the old babylon5 newsgroup for a long time, and remember ford's posts well. It seems to me that the best advice I ever heard about flamers in general was this: simply ignore them. If someone posts a rude message they're probably looking for attention, just like those kids you remember from high school who were always making fun of others.
all you have to do is ignore them. I don't mean ignore the people who come in and are polite, even if they disagree with EVERYTHING you say. Just the rude ones. Trust me, it helps, I've seen it time and time again. This will be my only post on the subject of Ford. he can flame me if he wants, he can e-mail me if he wants, and I"ll just ignore him.
((lil background... I'm a fan of the show ever since I found a babylon 5 message board on my local bbs way back before I had net access. The first thing I liked about the show was simply that the Creator/Writer/Producer had the courage to talk with fans about his show in public like JMS has. I've since found the show to be one of the best SF items I've ever had the pleasure of reading/watching/hearing. But I didn't start watching simply because it was a SF show. I watched because someone had the courage to stand up and talk about what he was doing. Makes the show more interesting when you know what's going on behind the scenes as well. (IE the teddybear from "There all honor lies".)) -
I find it amazing that a show that for years was placed at the most ungodly hours and ended six months ago still manages to divide people into fanboys and flamers. So, let's be honest and truthful for a moment. At its best, B5 managed to be very good Sci-fi. Eps like Believers, Intersections in Real Time, War Without End and Sleeping In Light were all great AND made you think. At its worst, B5 could become the same kind of crappy sci-fi that make people cyanotic. Think of eps like Grey 17, TKO and Legacies. But the show did have something that people saw that allowed it to survive--otherwise, people would not have gone through all the trouble of keeping up with its many changes in time slots nor would people be so divided as to its quality. That may be its greatest contribution--that it divides people up and forces them to think what is really a good TV show. As for Crusade, I've not seen an Ep. nor a promo--but I hope that it is a good show. Too many shows are half-assed and use the classic selling points (sex, violence) to a bad degree. If Crusade is as good as CH makes it out to be, it will succeed. If it's not, then the 13 eps will be all we see of it.
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I like babylon 5. But I am not a "harc-core fan." I have enjoyed almost every star trek series as well(except voyager.)
Ford, I think its the best writen sci-fi show. Sure, its had its bad days, and season 5 was not good, but overall, its one of the best science-fiction shows ever made. Deep space nine is great, and very well written, mostly it just lacks the overall story arch of B5. anyway, B5 had some wonderful eps, like sleepling in light, one of the best sci-fi eps ever made. I dont' know about crusade, I thought it was never supposed to be become a franchise.
So, though B5 was not big on the character development department like DS9, it did have one of the best plots ever. -
I'm relatively new here, and, while I admit to being a B-5 fan who is looking forward to Crusade, I have one or two polite comments. This FordT person seems to be making one of two mistakes. In the case of Crusade, he seems to be judging harshly without evidence; always dangerous that. Leads to sloppy thinking. In the case of B5 he seems awfully hung up on a show he doesn't like. He seems to enjoy hating it, to the point that we can probably count him towards the Crusade ratings, even if he will be watching for the wrong reasons. Ratings are the important thing here after all. I personally don't like the X-files. Can't stand it to be honest. Bad acting, ludicrous writing, I could go on and on. But I don't, because it's just my opinion, which doesn't count for much. I have a little trick that gets me by, though. I DON'T WATCH IT! Simple, huh?
P.S.to Cordwainer Hawk:
So, let me get this straight, you liked Crusade, right? -
Am I the only one who sees how stupid it is for people to say Crusade isn't worth watching because "we already know they save the Earth." Ok, then I guess you peopl will be skipping the Phantom Menace, cause well all know Anakin ends up as Vader (and even what happens to Vader) - so what's the point in watching? JMS and George Lucas have both said it well - it's the journey thats important.
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I thank you people for pointing out Ford's history, I think he had attacked every other B5 fan and decided that there was new blood and started after me. You are right, he does use the same format for everyone, call them "fanboy", call them "ill-informed", and try to put up trek on a pedistule that has shaky for the last 6 years because it has been challenged by the concept of what an actual well-developed plot looks like. He makes weak argument like the one above about other shows doing arcs better than B5 in a shorter time. HELLO! look at your own example of x-files, the show is taking forever for their arc to develop. They don't show any plot, except for three 2 parters in a season. And even then, no questions are answered, which makes it look like the goal of Carter is to make endless storytelling like Trek. B5 is unique because it was a 5 year arc, which raises as many question as it answers. On a good ep Trek could ony hope for so much, never have I seen it in an entire season . DS9 has been developing for the last few years, but still has not reached full potential, we could of got some major hint that Winn was going to go in such direction, that's what character development is, not just thowing in the plotline when it seems convenient. Well now that I said that, I except a swift and merciless retributive e-mail by Ford. THis time I will try to practice ahimsa and avoid arguing with him. What good does all this arguing do? there never seems to be an end. And TNT also has the shittiest movies I have ever seen, the Westerns they do aren't even that good. It looks as if it is targeting hard line white people, who are looking for anyway to reclaim an image that never really existed. No one ever seems to show the side of the Indian being massacred by the cowboy and all his clan facing genocide, on a level greater than the Kosovans and comparable to the Jews. But, I guess if it ain't white it ain't right.
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If there is anything in the world that troubles me is when someone doesn't quote me correctly, such as this example:
"""You are right, he does use the same format for everyone, call them "fanboy", call them "ill-informed", and try to put
up trek on a pedistule that has shaky for the last 6 years because it
has been challenged by the concept of what an actual well-developed plot".""
OK, where did I ever make such a statement???? Can you produce it?
Because I never made such a statement. While I've enjoyed DS9, I have no regard to speak of for VOYAGER, which IMHO has been an almost total disaster from where I sit.
LAW & ORDER, THE PRACTICE, etc.. have some personal favorites of recent times, if B5 or CRUSADE could be anywhere near that good I'd support it, but both programs IMHO aren't in the same state.
As far as the X-FILES is concerned, IMHO it's one of the better written and produced programs on TV today, and it seems to be doing something right since it has rather HUGE ratings of late,gotton a number of awards,including a Emmy or Two for something other then Make-Up.
CRUSADE will be embraced by a very small group, but the bottom line is that it doesn't have broad appeal and won't get the ratings it needs to survive.
I've seen one complete episode, which is more then most of the folks posting can say.
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Hey, Ford, what you think of Crusade means diddely-doo-dang-dungaree-jumpin'-jack-squat-on-a-stick, and you know why? Simple...you'll be watching along with the rest of us, and you know it. Just try and deny it. Just try reeeal hard. Face it...we've figured you out; your "industry insider" tack is hilarious, given that you most likely work at some 40-watt nickel and dime public-access hellhole in Salina, KS. While I haven't seen an episode--nor do I claim to, since I'm friends with a little concept called "truth"--the fact that you like it is a good sign in my ledger. (And my thanks to the gang at Coaxial for following through (with a vengeance) on earlier promises for a "review-fest"; this is better than I could have dreamed. I've noticed that the level of professionalism here far outstrips what I usually see on the main page. Keep up the good work.)
-
"""Hey, Ford, what you think of Crusade means
diddely-doo-dang-dungaree-jumpin'-jack-squat-on-a-stick, and you know
why? Simple...you'll be watching along with the rest of us, and you know
it. Just try and deny it.""
Well I do plan to see the new opening episode and see if it's any better, but beyond that unless it's much better then what I saw, I'll watch either SOUTH PARK or reruns of LAW AND ORDER. I missed a few this last season and it's a good chance to catch up.
"""Just try reeeal hard. Face it...we've figured
you out; your "industry insider" tack is hilarious, given that you most
likely work at some 40-watt nickel and dime public-access hellhole in
Salina, KS."""
When did I ever make the statement that I was an "Industry Insider"?
For the record I live in Los Angeles and work in the record business, I've produced a fair number of soundtrack albums,among them the new expanded CD release of RAMBO on SILVA SCREEN and the expanded CD release of HALLOWEEN on Varese Sarabande w/ Alan Howarth, as well as the new remixed DVD coming from Archor Bay.
"""While I haven't seen an episode--nor do I claim to, since
I'm friends with a little concept called "truth"--the fact that you like
it is a good sign in my ledger.""
But I didn't, you missed that point?
The show IMHO has major problems, make up you're mind when you see it for yourself. -
Wow, this is my first talkback! It's late, so I'll try to stay focused.
I have been and will continue to be a B5 fan. I also like ST:TNG. I saw the first seasons of both DS9 and Voyager and was not happy with both. I have since not watched either(although I have a friend who is a DS9 fan and he trying to convince me to watch it). My point is that I'm a SCI-FI fan. I won't chose between B5 and ST because I like, and want to see, both. They're not at war with each other, in fact they're quite different. It's ST's episodic-structure vs. B5's arc. We, as fans, can have the cake and eat it too. They both have strengths and weaknesses based on their format, content, and timeslot. I never understood the whole ST-vs.-B5-thing.
As for JMS. He's an outspoken man(like another certain writer he admires)and outspoken men are not without allies and enemies. Do I think JMS is a god. No, I don't. He's a human-being like anyone of us, with one slight difference. He realized his dream. He took a show pitched as "Casblanca-In-Space" and nutured it as it grew. It was his and his alone. Selfish, perhaps, but no more than I would be if I was in his position. I loved his world, his characters, and his writing(with a strong showing by some other talented people). As for Season 5, I liked it. I felt it was a natural extension of the character arcs(the story arc had winded-up in Season 4). It was a true-to-life, bittersweet ending. It resolved all that had come before and sets the stage for all that will follow. Season 4 seemed too much like a happy ending, but in Season 5 the consequences of the character's actions finally rolled over them. I have 1 network to thank for that natural continuation of the B5 story.
TNT. There is no dirtier word to a B5 fan. But, I was a late bloomer. I saw and taped all the episodies off TNT. I want to thank TNT for giving me the oppurtunity to see B5 in its entirity. Does this make me evil? To thank the killer of of one of my shows, NO! TNT gave me Season 5, the resolution to all the character arcs. I understand the situation. Some(not all of TNT supportd this move, remember that)of the TNT suits wanted some creative control over Crusade. JMS said no, so the suits retaliated. It's sad, but true. In show-business a grudge can kill a show, it's just a statement of fact. Crusade seems to be a good show(although I must agree that the review was biased, although Glen did include disclaimers), however before I praise or condemn it I must do one thing. I WILL WATCH IT! I won't judge a book by its cover. I will watch(and tape)Crusade when it airs. If I like it then TNT and SCI-FI will be hearing from me, if I don't like it I'll simply have wasted my tapes. It's a winning situation either way. I just don't understand the pure hatred I read in the talkbacks towards Crusade. I hate Barney. Do I watch Barney, no. I hate Drew Barrymore. Do I watch Drew Berrymore movies, no(now I'll get it from thee drew Barrymore fans). All I'm saying is give Crusade a chance.
Well, that's my 2-cents. I tried to be polite, I deal with rude people all day and they get on my nerves. I hope I havn't offended anyone, but this is the spot to voice our opinion so what the hell. One more thing, if there is anybody interested in a 'Crusade' RPG email:Xs32976@aol.com(this practicly begs to be spammed, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway). You don't have to be a B5 fan, but some familiaity couldn't hurt. AICN guys, I'm sorry to advertise on you're board. Please it accept my humblest apologies. -
I don't think you can really trust the emmies or oscars, they tend to be dominated by people with no taste at all and who are politically motivated. Hell they refuse to recognize the Simpson and it is one of the best written shows out there. Hell, even Shatner has attacked the rabid trekkis by writing a book which is called "Get a Life", and Duchovny has repeatedly made fun of people who watch the X-files.
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"""I don't think you can really trust the emmies or oscars, they tend to be dominated by people with no taste at all and who are politically motivated."""
And The Hugos aren't? Now while I'll agree that Oscars have a LONG HISTORY of passing on films that deserved awards, The Emmys are a different animall. They have tended to be far more fair in giving out the awards to worthly programs, I was shocked a year or so ago when they gave Best Dramatic Series to LAW AND ORDER, which richly deserved it.
And exactly (in the case of the Emmys) what proof do you have that the "Voters" have no taste? I'd like to see it?
""Hell they refuse to recognize the Simpson and it is one of
the best written shows out there."" Unless I'm mistaken THE SIMPSONS has won at least one or two emmys, the rules were changed so that it could be nominated.
"""Hell, even Shatner has attacked the rabid trekkis by writing a book which is called "Get a Life",""" Mainly due to the fact that he made a good point, some of them need lives very badly .
""""and
Duchovny has repeatedly made fun of people who watch the X-files."""" Not EXACTLY, he tends to to poke fun at the OTT fanboys and Girls more then anything, and I can understand where he is coming from, remember the show is a JOB to him, not his entire life. -
A couple of months back, a friend of mine who writes for a number of SF
publications, posted me a copy of tentative pilots under consideration for
the coming season. With a rare few exceptions, there was nothing new or
original (especially genre projects) under the sun in there. As an old
timer whose been with B5 since the first airing of The Gathering and one
who eagerly anticipates Crusade (since JMS' Dreamwatch interview of 2
years ago), thanks Glen and Cordwainer for the preview. Somehow, I
instinctively felt Crusade would be worth the wait and its attendant TNT
hassles. You should be proud that you stuck to your principles, JMS.
Cordwainer Hawk's reviews and editorial confirm it. On a less pleasant
note, I hope you don't let Fordat's childish and self-important attitude
poison this forum the way he and his comrade in arms Theron Fuller did
and still do) at rast B5. Their "us [Star Trek/X-Files] vs.them
[B5/Crusade]" stance is inappropriate and unacceptable in this venue.
Faith manages and Art lasts.
Cheers,------ Dennis Kristos, Vancouver B.C. Canada ----- -
You know I was beginning to think that interest in B5 was wanning, but now that I see Ford's posts, I see B5 is as strong as ever.
Hey Ford, thanks for being here, it gave me a laugh and really made me excited about Crusade. That's what you were trying to do, wasn't it? -
I just can't get away from this Ford guy. First on the B5 news group, then on rec.arts.sf.tv, and now here.
I also don't understand why he even will be watching Crusade. He doesn't like JMS's writing style and he doesn't like B5. Fine. I don't have a problem with that.
What I do have a problem with is that he seems to feel the need to tell us at every oportunity how much he disklikes JMS's writing and B5. He's been attacking B5 and JMS for something like 6 years now. Get over it!
I don't understand people like Ford who waste their time posting their negative views when it doesn't change anyone else's view anyway. Plus why spend time watching a show you don't like, written by a writer you don't like???? Oh yeah right, so he can post about how much he doesn't like it.
I don't know if Crusade will be good or not, I hope its as good as the review suggests but we'll see.
I like Star Trek and B5 and lots of other sci-fi and non sci-fi shows, I don't see why if someone likes star trek they can't like b5 and visa-versa.(sp?) They are different shows and each has its pluses and minuses. -
I gotta wonder about Ford and his ilk. What's it take to get you to stop dissing B5 and JMS? A silver bullet?? B5 now has 3 Hugos under its belt. Bad TV shows do not win Hugos. I've heard the arguement that B5's awards were politically motivated, but considering that B5 has been virtually ignored by the media for its entire run, that notion just doesn't track. If JMS weilds such political clout, I think he'd use it to get more publicity for his show. Nothing like a little logic to ruin a flamer's day, right? (Hmm.. 3 Hugo awards. "They are three, as they are one. As they are The One..." *SMACK!* I guess I should shut up now:)
-
So far just expressing my opinion seems to have upset a very small group of folks who just don't like to hear or read ANYTHING that runs counter to their seeming blind "Worship" of B5 and it's unseen spin-off CRUSADE.
Some of you seem to think that the HUGO's that B5 won seem to matter, the bottom line is that it's a fan award chosen by about 300 fans who decide to pay for the right to vote on this award.
Or am I mistaken? Winning a hugo in Hollywood means on thing only:
JACKS**T.
That's life in the big city.
While the show may have won 3 Hugo's, What B5 didn't have was a broad appeal to the mainstream audience , which explains why it's ratings went down every year or do you deny that it didn't?
Now returning to the subject of CRUSADE, I have the right to express my opinion, Just because I don't agree with your views on a TV show doesn't mean my opinion is worthless, all it means is that I have an opinion, nothing more, nothing less.
I plan to watch the new opening episode and see if it's an improvement over what show I saw, who knows it might be better
We'll all see on June 9th. -
This showed up on RASTB5 and I thought it might interest you all who are trying to save the Evil of TNT and their love of "Wrestling"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>From: dianekde@aol.com (Diane K s: Date: 29 Apr 1999 21:02:59 GMT
According to the mantra of "Save Crusaders" we are supposed to hate TNT becausethey allegedly wanted to turn Crusade into "Wrestling in Space". We are also supposed to embrace the Sci-Fi Channel as the white knights that will rescue
Crusade. They wouldn't do something so crass as tie in a science fiction show with wrestling. Would they?
With these thoughts in mind, I found the following story on the Sci-Fi Channel's website amusing...
Sable Wrestles With First Wave
WWF Women's Champion Sable will
make a guest appearance in the
second season premiere of the SCI
FI series First Wave.
The formidable female wrestler is set to play Lucas, an equally formidable alien assassin sent from the home world to eliminate Cade Foster in the episode "Target 117."
Because Lucas has been placed into
a human husk infused with alien
DNA, she has recuperative powers
far greater than the usual
extraterrestrial. The female
terminator also has a history with
the disgruntled alien Joshua, who
left his planet because of feelings for her character.
A SCI FI spokesperson noted that
Sable--who is well known not only
for her patented Sablebomb but also for a sell-out appearance in
Playboy--was a hit during her recent visit to the First Wave set. "Everyone on the crew loved her,and we expect it to be a really good episode," the spokesperson said.
No air date has been set for the
episode.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's all about ratings, Baby!
-
Fordat1 for god sakes man! Why can't we just have a civil talkback for once. We really don't need your flames. So you don't like B5, big whoop. Then get off it already. But if you at least insist on posting, try to come up with an informed opinion, rather than the tripe you've been pedding in your other posts. We have over a month untill crusade premiers, and we can't say anything for sure yet. And go take a walk or something, there's a heck of alot more to life than B5, sure it was a great show, but I mean really, you're just as bad as the fanboy's you hate so much.
-CS -
I'm sorry, but it seems to me that any opinion as strong and scathing as Ford's can have absolutely no basis in objectivity. I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with certain points he is making, but any attack that brutal has got to be a knee-jerk reaction based on some sort of pre-existing prejudice. I'd also like to know why he thinks he is so qualified to heap crap on a series because he has seen "one whole episode". I personally will reserve judgement until something a little more substantial is evident. I personally love ST:TNG and think it is one of the all-time greats - but they had some absolute shockers of episodes, especially while they were still finding their feet. How sad and small to believe a series of maybe 110 episodes can be judged on the basis of one - and their first one at that! Grow up Ford. Maybe Crusade will be the worst show ever made; I hope not but I don't know! I'll give it more than forty four minutes of my time before I make that decision. I hope you all do too. In the end, it doesn't matter what anyone thinks but you, dear viewer. Heap praise or condemn according to your own feelings. But I hate to think that people with an obvious agenda such as Mr Ford, would rob the show of a potential audience because his deductive powers tell him that the entire series is a load of crap based on the first episode. What do you do at the movies, Ford? Walk out before the coming attractions are over? Although I promised i wouldn't result to vulgarity i would like to tell people like Ford to suck my Kosh!
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