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A Fantastic Interview with George Lucas!
Alright folks, this is a STAR WARS item that.... well isn't about the effects or the CGI. Instead it's about the intellectual side of STAR WARS that those people out there that just see the lightsabers and the rubber mask often overlook. In this TIME magazine interview between George Lucas and Bill Moyers, you'll read about the real meaning of "USE THE FORCE" and what it is that George Lucas is trying to do with the story of STAR WARS.
Now I know good and well that in TALK BACK below there are going to be people that... won't get this, or that will try to "Get Your Goat"... But you know what? Don't fall for it. Let's discuss the issues and points that get brought up in this interview. This is one for all of us that discovered Joseph Campbell because of STAR WARS, and learned about THE POWER OF MYTHS. This is an interview that makes you think, so... Go read it, and let's hear what you thought!
Click Here To Read The Fantastic TIME Interview With George Lucas!!!
Click Here To Read The Fantastic TIME Interview With George Lucas!!!
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Really it does, and I'll tell you why. Special effects are neat and all. I mean you can make an entire movie based on the fact that you can have kick ass special effects in it, and I'm sure a lot of people will see it. But a lot of these movie tend to suck. (Lost in Space anyone.) It is a movie that puts thought behind these special effects, and uses them to enhance the story, not be the story, that make a great movie. (The Matrix anyone, although if you really think about it is kinda silly. "Oh no, the whole world is a computer, how do we save it? Big gun fight, that's how.") Now to hear George talk, and realize that he put so much thought into this aspect of the film, tells me that we are in for a kick ass ride, with a kick ass story and message behind it. (The original trilogy anyone.) George knows man, he knows that good, evil, God, Satan, Internal struggle, and greed is what makes a movie great. Not special effects. And speaking of Darth Maul, (As George did in the interview) he is the main reason that I am not worried about Jar-Jar making the movie too "Ewokee" (A new word by the way.) How evil, and Bad ass looking is this guy? And you think Jar-Jar is going to distract you from him? Crazy man.
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After reading this wonderful interview, and thankyou Harry for the link, i was reminded of the book that came out about the same time as the Smithsonian exhibit, what was that, Magic of Myth or something. This book focused on a lot of the things that was mentioned in the interview but it was a relief to hear it straight from the horses mouth. Its nice to know that under all the wonderfull effects and the brilliant looking sabre duels, George is still focused on retelling those wonderful myths.
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Please get over it. That man is not, I repeat, NOT a God. He is simply an average filmmaker with a talent for good stories.
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When lucas said in the interview talking about the sith lords "the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them", its seems this theme also occurs with good side of the force. Ben teaches Luke and now Qui-Gon teaches Ben. In trailer B, yoda says to Mace "always 2 there are, a master and an apprentice" the only difference being that on the good side the apprentice doesnt kill the master, the master sacrafices himself. Looks like you could see similarities between the new and old episodes as they unfold.
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Sure, buy the Star Wars video game, and gloat, why don'tcha? I'm sitting here with my Episode I poster, and and my Trilogy, and my Special Edition Jawa with the Kung Fu Grip...oh, evil, evil man. In the immortal words of Miyagi..."Never know enough karate. Someone always know more. Wax on, wax off." I cry, now. I want that game. I want that game. I want that game. I want that game. You better be lying. I want that game. :) Well, enjoy, while I think ill of you. He he he...
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Pretty good GL interview. It's interesting to understand where Lucas goes for inspiration for a character like Darth Maul. I get the feeling that the utter coolness of Maul will overshadow the potential douche-chills that Jar Jar may inspire. Note to GL - it's not too late to overdub Jar Jar with the velvet-smooth vocal talents of Billy Dee...
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I love the fact that after 16 years, a new Star Wars film is coming out, and we have the Internet to share our common joy with. I love the fact that when someone like the above post talks about starts heckling Star Wars a fellow geek is there, willing to sacrifice his popcorn for the greater good of the glory! If it was me, I'd have thrown something harder at her, say, a chocolate-covered almond or something. I love the new article in TIME which is just brimming with love and excitement, and an intelligent interview with the Master. I love that special effects technology has become so far advanced that entire worlds can be created from less than mere cloth. I love that people are learning who Joseph Campbell is. I love that our myths are being rewritten for the enjoyment and enlightenment of not just an entire generation, but an entire population of the world. I love that Lane Myers can sell his prized movie paraphenalia just so he could snag a Star Wars Trilogy arcade game. I love that in the deepest recesses of my nightmares, Darth Maul actually scares the shit out of me. I love that Anakin Skywalker, with his rise and fall from grace, is actually, totally, us. I love Princess Leia's hair in Ep. IV, and the slave outfit in Ep. VI. I love that young Obi-Wan is, to paraphrase a certain Mace Windu, "a bad motherfucker." i love that Oscar Schindler is a Jedi. I love that I'm probably going to get the Episode I soundtrack before anyone else (please don't ask how). And i love the fact that for 2 hours and 10 minutes, on May 19th, I will be a child again. Literally and figuratively. Those that hack on Star Wars, do what you must. Call us children. Call us nerds. Call us whatever you want. I know how much it hurts, that you can't actually enjoy something in life to the point that it brings back your most cynic-less, innocent views of childhood, that for a few moments, the world doesn't actually suck, that you're not being taken advantage of, that your shitty job is all you have to look forward to. The countingdown.com guys actually got to meet Jake Lloyd, for Christ's sake! That alone would be worth a job. Man, to all the Star Wars geeks out there, chugging away until the Great May 19th, I salute you. I love you all. Let's go.
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Here here Nordling. When I went to see the Special Edition of New Hope on opening night the theater was just packed to capacity to see a twenty year old film! The whole atmosphere was electric with anticipation. The guy sitting next to my wife and me was about 5 to 10 years older than me and had brought his 6 year old son with him. We talked for a while about what it was like to see it back in '77 and about how kids today just can't understand what it was like in the dark times befor cable, VCRs, dish TV yadda yadda yadda. Hell, in a big city like Chicago there were only 7 chanels on TV. Then the lights went down and the whole theater erupted in a cheer! At every piece of new footage the guy beside me uttered a barely audible "cool" in unison with me. As many times as I plan to see Phantom Menace I know that nothing can compare to the first time I see it. When those lights dim on May 19th I will be 22 years older than on that first magical night in '77, but I'll also be a 7 year old boy again. Remember when you were a kid and still got excited befor Christmas? That's how I feel now.
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We live in a world, and those of us who have access to this trivia wrapped inside the interenet, live in a society, where Technology has advanced far more quickly than Human Evolution. Despite the Universe George Lucas has created, George Lucas is no more of a man, no more of a human, no more of a Soul, than any of us. We have always been quick to hold dear those works of art that create a Universe wholly different than our own, but a Universe that can express and exemplify our ideal, hopes, and fears. This includes, and, of course, is not limited to, the works of the Bible, Shakespeare, Dante, J. R. R. Tolkien, Frank Hebert, Gene Roddenberry, and George Lucas. Each of these artists have managed to create a Universe and expolore the simplest themes and questions man seeks within himself and those that surround him. Myth is just that; and is true Myth created by a nerd from Modesto, California who grew up in front of the cold glow of the television set. Of course not. George Lucas threw into the whole Star Wars deal a little Bible, a little Greek/Roman mythology, a little Kurosawa and Eastern philosophy, a little cliffhanger nonsense, and a whole lot of genere, Western and Romance. For Bill Moyers to interview, in my opinion with a half smile, a kid who managed to fool an entire generation and beyond, with a pastiche of Mythmaking characteristics, is no less than what I would expect from a magazine like Time a few weeks before the release of Episode One. "Wait a minute, we've got Bill Moyers on retainer and George Lucas is starting to give serious sit-down interviews with his new CGI masterpiece, let's put these two great tastes together. You got peanut butter on my chocolate, you got chocolate in my peanut butter, two great tastes that taste like
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Two points from the interview that I feel fully show that Lucas has really lost it:
1. The force as a catalyst to convince young people to think about religon. Granted in a true fantasy such as Tolkien or Robert Jordan or Michael Moorcock or etc. I would be inclined to agree, but the force acts only as a plot device in the previous three films. Sure we get a lot of dialogue about how great the force is "The power to destroy a planet is insignificant when compared to the power of the force" and the like, but does the force really do anything on par with the Death Star being able to wipe out an entire world? I don't think so. The force is nothing more than a flawed metaphor. It's flawed because a metaphor (which is probably capable of doing that Lucas claims the force does) gets its power through accuracy. Great metaphors in literature and film [they mention Paradise Lost in the interview -- see the whole poem as an incredible metaphor] perfectly encapsulate the situation they are trying to describe by causing your mind to bridge the gap and make connections between two seemingly dissimilar subjects. The force feels well fake and lacks the strength to stand. Although this is obviously too short an area to be a rigorous discussions, anyone who has read Tolkien's essay on "Faerie" will understand exactly what I am trying to say...
2. Darth Maul. They put some cheesy face paint and plastic horns on some clowns face and Lucas claims he is suppossed to evoke images from every world religon as well as Paradise Lost and Dante's Inferno. Has he ever read either of those? Surely he would have come up with far more ideas if he had seeing as how Milton's devil is a fallen angel who still retains a certain battered beauty and nobility beyond anything humans could ever hope for as well as the ability to change shape, assume spirit form, possess host bodies, fly and in general do a whole lot more than I've seen from Dath Maul. In fact Milton compares Michael's duel with Satan to Planets colliding in mid course. And he prefaces the whole thing by claiming that if you hold that image in your mind, you are seeing only a shadow of what the battle really looked like. Certainly Darth Maul doesn't seem to do anything like that. And Dante's Devil is hundreds of feet tall, he sits in the center of the world with three heads and huge wings causing cold winds which freeze the whole lower area of hell. What does Darth Maul do? Runs around with face paint? Lucas should really be more careful about what he compares his stuff to... -
Oh yeah. Harry? Why the fuck would you consider this sad, desperate interview FANTASTIC? Please explain yourself (or am I getting your goat?) Coming soon: George Lucas is interviewed by Bill Buckley about the politics in Episode One and how it will influence Big Choice 2000. This interview will be NEAT!
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I just knew that posting a Star Wars praise post would bring out the syphilitic pricks. If I could only go back in time to hand your mothers that rusty wire coathanger that you know she was begging for when she learned of your conceptions... I know that Lucas isn't creating new myths. That's the fucking point! You CAN'T! He's just retelling them in a way that the so-called Gen X group can relate to. He stated himself he wanted to make a story that would hand down the basic truths to children. If you want to look at it, E.T. is a retelling of the Christ story. Please, fuckers, stay away on May 19th, or I and several million of my fellow friends will come looking for you. With chainsaws. And lemon juice.
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Peregrin made a really good point about Darth Maul's appearance, how Milton's Lucifer is beautiful, not scary and ugly. I guess I'm kinda going off on a tangent, but I think thats a really perceptive point about fiction in general. Why would villains want everybody to know they were evil? Wouldn't that be less efficient? The greatest, most terrifying evil would be the most intelligent and deceptive, and would disguise itself as harmless or even virtuous. Who is really scarier, the lame jiggling rubber monster suits from In The Mouth of Madness, or the child molester or serial killer who lives next door and looks like a really nice guy? Check out Peter Lorre in Fritz Lang's "M" if you want to know what I mean. He'll make your hair stand on end but he's soft and harmless-looking, like a big kid. The image of concealed evil is very powerful. The thought of the booby-traps in Vietnam, hidden in children's toys for U.S. troops to find, makes my skin crawl. I don't have time to think of all the ways this imagery appears in mythology, but one example are the sirens that lured sailors to their deaths with beauty and music. Anyway, sorry about all that babbling.
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Every time I come to the Star Wars talk back I see the same people bithcing and complaining about every little fucking detail that doesn't fit into their "cool!" criteria. Lucas isn't perfect, but he's done a helluva lot more than any of you losers can ever hope to.
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Okay, first to JMS,
WHY MUST THE EWOKS IN ROTJ BE CONSIDERED STUPID? I think the Ewoks are cool. Now, admitatly, I haven't seen the Ewoks movies, but I think the Ewoks are very cool. Also, JMS, if I may make a suggestion, read Isisac Asimov's Gold (his final sci-fi novel). In it, he talks about how people consider him a genius because his stories are enjoyed by both adualt and children. His response to this is that children, espically teenagers, can deal with adualt issues, if you respect their intellagence. I can't explain it all here, but please read it.
To Henry Chinaski, when does a story become a myth? I personally don't think of Star Wars so much as a myth as I do a legion. I can't explain the difference, but I know it exists.
In my opinion, we have 3 modern sci-fi myths, or legions, which are Star Wars, Star Trek, and Babylon 5.
Granted, there are only so many stories to tell, and at somepoint (which we reached a long time ago) we are merely retooling old myths. does that mean we stop? If so, then we have been in a culture wasteland for more than a thousand years
and to Pereigen, why do you think the force feels fake? I certainly don't.
to Setec23, I think that is an interesting anology, but the other area where they differ is that the light masters don't seek out and kill the light masters -
...my friend, that was a superb post - and I agree with every single, solitary word of it - full fucking on man...!!! - oh and JMS Forever... I pity you... only because you won't experience the utter joy the rest of us will - it's a shame and I do feel sorry for you...
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It's precisely the fact that Darth Maul is so sinister looking that makes me intimidated. Also, if you know anything of the plot (SPOILERS FOLLOW) Darth Maul is an emissary of an even darker master, who looks fairly harmless...for now. Senator palpatine looks just like, well, a Senator, a harmless old man. But knowing what he will become makes him a little frightening. But I see what you mean. The villain in The Vanishing (not the American piece of shit version - the European one) looks like the milkman.
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It's amazing how people attack anyone with money as being 'greedy'. So Lucas wants to make as much $$$ as he can with Star Wars. Why the fuck not? Are you telling me that you wouldn't? Don't lie and say otherwise. Lucas was able to create a studio for himself, plant the seed that became ILM, and it was almost completely done with his own money. He didn't have to answer to studio execs, and won't have to ever again. He's made mistakes (as he admitted in the Moyers interview), but at least he can take complete responsibility for his mistakes. I don't see eye-to-eye with everything he's stated in interviews. However, all he's really guilty of is making something that HE likes, that many people like, and it's really as simple as that. If he can make a bundle of cash on it without sacrificing his own vision or integrity, then more power to him. Fuck ANYONE that complains when someone puts themselves in a position earn money without selling themselves out to do it. I could only wish I had the vision to become so independantly wealthy as to be able to wake up and make the day my own instead of coming in to the same job day after day. Lucas has done that. Good for him.
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This interview reflects Lucas' obvious intelligence and dedication to his art. Personally I find his philosophy a little woolly, but I really appreciate his sincerity in trying to bring religious issues out into the open. But would all the people like Nordling, who spew foul-mouthed venom at anyone who criticises Star Wars, please note his last comment: "You can be a very small hero ... (by) accepting responsibility for the things you do, having good manners, caring about other people." Amen to that.
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JMS!!! My old buddy! how've ya been? Still not gettin' laid it would seem. Maybe you should use some of your lap dance money and just hire a hooker. It might loosen your pucker just a little. JMS, here's a clue: When you come here to insult people they don't think "Oh no, here comes that razor sharp wit to verbally flog us." they think "Oh shit, here comes that attention seeking and cowardly looser to make an ass of himself and waste bandwidth". If your such a crusader for truth then why did you not respond to my challenge a while back? In fact I've just thought of an even better way for you to prove your metal. The challenge remains the same. Go to your local theater on May 19th and walk up to the people in line and start saying to them what you say on this website. Get right up in there faces and be just as insulting as you are here. Convince them of your superiority as you tear down there fragile psyches with your searchlight of truth. Really piss them off. But here's the best part: Have one of your toady little friends VIDEOTAPE it. Then I will happily provide you with a PO Box number to which you can mail it. If you are capable of this then we will all be humbled by your bravery. But I'm sure that you'll probably ignore my challenge and even if you do respond we all know that you're too cowardly to ever confront people outside the security of your own home you anonymous prick. I call on everyone who has ever found JMS to be the screeching little annoyance that he is to take up my challenge. Every time you see one of his unprovoked and assinine posts remind him that he is in truth a frightened little shit who gets an orgasmic thrill every time he sees his pseudonym on these pages. And that when challenged to prove that he is not full of horseshit he retreated in fear. Come on JMS show us what you're really made of. ****** Oh, and Henry, Didn't you READ the interview? Lucas never claimed to be "making" myth. He set out to create a story with the same qualities as myth. You are of course entitled to your oppinion but I suspect that you were more anxious to sound smarter than the rest of us than anything else.
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I understand what you're saying. I can handle constructive criticism of Star Wars - it's jerks like JMS Forever that get me riled up. Which is probably his intention, anyway. And sometime I like to lash out with stuff like the coat hanger comment. If I offended anyone I'm sorry. That's not in the proper Jedi manner, anyway. "Anger, fear, aggression..." and all that...
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It all come back to Tolkien...his essay "On Faerie" is an indispensable guide book in determining what it takes to make fantasy seem a reality. And what it requires is rigorous rules. The fantasy world must be just as rigidly described by laws of nature as this world of ours. Sure the rules can be different, but they must be rules nonetheless and the denizens of world must be bound by them all the same. Otherwise the world loses all credibility as logical inconsistencies develop and it looks as if your magic functions only on the author's whim. This is exactly what happens to the force throughout the three Star Wars films. Just consider these few problems: The force is described as the energy from all living beings, but it really seems to affect inert matter far more than anything alive throughout the series. Darth Vader is a master, but he can't determine that Leia is his daughter after questioning her in episode IV? The emperor knows aspects of the future from the force, but neither he nor Vader has any idea that both Luke and Ben are on Tatooine in the beginning of the story? "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" -- doing what? Talking to Luke every once and a while? In A New Hope Vader feels Ben's presence, but doesn't feel his own son's? "The force is strong with this one." If strength in the force is inherent, how come Luke doesn't feel the planet destruction when Ben does? There are dozens of these inconsitencies throughout the entire story, and I, for one, believe they are a product of the force being merely a cheap plot device that Lucas uses whenever he needs something different to happen.
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It all come back to Tolkien...his essay "On Faerie" is an indispensable guide book in determining what it takes to make fantasy seem a reality. And what it requires is rigorous rules. The fantasy world must be just as rigidly described by laws of nature as this world of ours. Sure the rules can be different, but they must be rules nonetheless and the denizens of world must be bound by them all the same. Otherwise the world loses all credibility as logical inconsistencies develop and it looks as if your magic functions only on the author's whim. This is exactly what happens to the force throughout the three Star Wars films. Just consider these few problems: The force is described as the energy from all living beings, but it really seems to affect inert matter far more than anything alive throughout the series. Darth Vader is a master, but he can't determine that Leia is his daughter after questioning her in episode IV? The emperor knows aspects of the future from the force, but neither he nor Vader has any idea that both Luke and Ben are on Tatooine in the beginning of the story? "If you strike me down I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine" -- doing what? Talking to Luke every once and a while? In A New Hope Vader feels Ben's presence, but doesn't feel his own son's? "The force is strong with this one." If strength in the force is inherent, how come Luke doesn't feel the planet destruction when Ben does? There are dozens of these inconsitencies throughout the entire story, and I, for one, believe they are a product of the force being merely a cheap plot device that Lucas uses whenever he needs something different to happen.
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Where in that article does it claim that Lucas creates myths? Nowhere! It states multiple times that Lucas retells myths with his own characters, settings, and ideas. He even states himself: "I am retelling the old myths in a new way." You people need to stop using your asses to think and start using your heads. READ the fucking article before you criticize it. I have no problem with people that don't like Lucas, but come up with some decent arguments, don't start reshaping everything Lucas says into some twisted bullshit just so you can come in here and pointlessly bash the guy.
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Jesus Harold Christ! It's just a fuckin' movie! If you want more meaningful entertainment I recommend reading CRIME AND PUNISHMENT by Dostoevesky, you'll be in hours and hours of mirth.
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Okay, the way I see the force, is that if you aren't trained in its usuage, then you aren't detactable. This is why the Emporer and Vader didn't really discover Luke until ESB. He had started trying to train (EG, was able to move his lightsaber telekineticly). Vader only detected Obi-wan, and not Luke because it is like trying to see a lightning bug next to a giant searchlight. Again, he didn't detect Leia, because first, she didn't know until ROTJ (so she can't betray anything) and she has no training.
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As for Obi-wan becoming stronger, what he is doing is offering Vadar a choice. He is saying Look, what you are doing is wroung, and you have to know there will be a day of reckoning. You can turn away know, and come with us, or you can wait till the day of reckoning, and pay with your life
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As for Luke not feeling it, well, for all we know, he might have felt a shudder, but nothing else, and thought nothing of it. Obi-wan feels the same shudder, but he realizes the implications, and it overwelms him.
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As for not detecting Luke and Obi-wan, well, Luke has no training yet, so he was undetectable. And the force seems to be affected by proxsimity. Why is it Luke and Vadar only communicate when they are close by? Proxsimity. Now, I imagine Tatoonie is quite off the beaten path, given Lukes comment in A new Hope.
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And finally, it is affecting Living things, because, ultimatly, it is the battle between Luke, Vadar, and the Emporer that determines the out come of the galaxy. ANd how we relate and interact with crude matter, is how we determine our fate -
I have been reading these talkbacks for a few months now, but this is the first time I have responded. I Love Star Wars. I can remember seeing it when it first came out her in '78. I was four, and to say this film mad an impact on me would be an understatement. Over the years, I have seen these films many times, and always see something new in them. All this talk on how George Lucas is 'greedy' and is only interested in money is rubbish. Look at what he has done with the money - THX, LucasArts, Skywalker Sound. The man is much more than Star Wars and even if you don't like these films, I bet there are many films you do like that have had imput from one or more of his divisions.
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Yes I think to be quite fair we must recognize it is Moyers who compares TPM, particularly Darth Maul, to the representations in Dante and Milton. And as we have seen this is very wrong-headed. I think the place to look for the best analogy of what Lucas has done is the Brothers Grimm. These are symbolic stories that Lucas tells, and are we not lending them greater cosmological significance than they deserve (or really want) when we call them myths? Myths explain things like how the earth was made, why there is evil, why things happen as they do. These are larger issues than the family drama--which is what SW is and always has been, played out upon a fantastical canvas. The family drama is the stuff of folk and fairy tales for children and adults--they are the stories that teach you about loyalty and friendship, a value I am glad to see Lucas elevating (Myth hardly cares about friendship, at least in the proper sense of that word). This is not to rate mythic stories above 'fairy tales'; they each have their place. But it's best not to confuse them or else Lucas becomes a mediocre guru instead of a superb humanist storyteller. I think the whole problem with the interview lies with Moyers. He has never impressed me as a Q&A man, and I found him less than adequate in his series with Joseph Campbell, a mythographer whose work is not wholly embraced. But at least Moyers and Campbell turn us in that direction, as does Lucas. As for the Force being inadequate to its spiritual task, it moves through us, one human being at time. Its flow is determined by us, what it tells us is what we allow it to tell. It hasn't any failings; the fault lies within us. And the Death Star was destroyed after all!
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You think that I am "anxious to sound smarter than the rest of us than anything else?" I am sad that my post concerning Lucas's comments with Moyers makes you feel less intelligent than me and some of the others on Talkback. I was not intentionally striking out at your obvious insecurities, but there it is. As far as whether or not I actually read the interview, yes, I did in fact read it. I read it a couple of times. The second time I was reading in between the lines; watching Moyers feed Lucas questions which would have hopefully lead Lucas to some unflattering responses. Unfortunately, at this point in his life, George Lucas is too media-savvy to fall for these questions. At one point in the interview, Moyers flat out asked Lucas, "You're creating a new myth?" Lucas safely replies, "I'm telling an old myth in a new way." This reveals all the bullshit. Lucas is not telling an old myth, if he was telling an old myth, it would be readily identified. What, in fact, Lucas is doing is truly trying to create a new myth by appropraiting characteristics of ancient and, generally, more meaningful myths. So, despite the black and white words of this rather boring, typically Lucas pseudo-mystical, neo-spiritual doubletalk about a series of films that happily fell into place by accident, the reader catches a glimpse of Lucas's own insecurities and need to defend the works of a young man educated with nothing other than television and the films of greater artists. Once you create a film, it is rather easy to superimpose all these great ideas of theme and myth and legend to make yourself sound important and deep. Sometimes, when an artist creates a work, it just looks good, or touches those who study it. I had this fight many years ago with my tenth grade English teacher concerning the works of Nathaniel Hawthorne. Sometimes an author just writes this sentence so he can move on to the next sentence. Not every word has to have multiple meanings. This is the case with George Lucas and the whole Star Wars deal. Lucas saw a bunch of critics and fans trying to read more deeply into a simple Romance film set in a distant galaxy and he jumped on his own bandwagon instead of being true. He should have just said, "You know what? I never saw it that way, I never intended that to mean that, but maybe I'll explore that some more in my next film." But he lied, saying that he had had this big plan all along (for example, the huge nine part story--lie!, the fact that he added the Force because he wanted 13 year old boys to be more religious--lie!, to say "I'm telling an old myth in a new way"--lie!); he should have been honest and reveled in the fact that these themes and truisms he stole from other works of art helped the film to stand as a classic. My opinion, simply stated, is that Lucas did what all young artist do, he stole elements from great works to create his own great work. This is the way it goes from Picasso to Shakespeare to the Rolling Stones. But, instead, Lucas has the balls to say this is originally what he had planned from day one (bullshit) and all of these mystical, mythic aspects of Star Wars were in his head from day one (bullshit). He, whether consciously or not, created a work using the elements of art he picked up and stored in his gray matter over the years watching television and film. Own it up to it, George. Own up to the fact that you are not Tolkien and all of this was a happy accident that you are more than willing to exploit even twenty years after the success of the first film. As far as your personal offense to anything critical of Star Wars or Lucas, Foster Zygote, this is simply an internet posting sight where anonymous opinions are encouraged and plentiful (and usually posted by idiots). Try not to take everything so personally, you sensitive fuck! And, as always, personal attacks (like your sad attack on JMS) never conquer a well thought out response. Personal attacks are the evidence of a small, tired mind. "I don't think the Matrix was a very good movie." "Oh yeah, well your nose is big and you need money for strippers!" Very witty, Foster Zygote. But again, that probably rests with your insecurity about not being as intelligent as the rest of us.
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I honestly cannot understand why some of you go to such great pains to be derisive of the ONLY REASON why you are digging this site in the first place. If you are truly so enraged by "flawed metaphors" (if you're after literary perfection, you might have to wait a while for cinema to get there) and "cheesy face paint" (are you insane? Maul is nightmare) then go somewhere else and live your lives. Or, better yet, get writing and give us all a film that lives up to your standards.
Of course GL isn't a god. Only a simp would put him that context. But if there is a myth maker alive in our culture today, who else but GL could fit the bill?
A the very least, he cares about something more than just giving us a ride.
The effort that went into TPM attests to that.
GL is very cool guy.
TPM will be very cool movie.
Hope to see you there. -
I understand why there must be one sith lord and one apprentice. One must wonder how this works with Palpatine. If Darth Maul is his apprentice in the first one, one is to assume that he is killed. Palpatine looks for a new apprentice--anakin. then why is he looking for a third in return? To replace Vader? Is Vader weak to him? Or so that he can be replaced by vader and Vader can have Luke as his apprentice? That certainly explains why his method was to tell Luke to kill him.
On another note, does anyone realize thart we will be seeing the epic fight in return done again, except where Luke fails? Lucas has certainly worked his magic on me, because I've been thinking about that little boy wich would Darth Vadar ever since that first poster. I'm happy with all this. I was always pissed off that Vadar was totally terrifying in the first two but kinda weak in the last. i felt like Lucas had slept through his character, forgot to make him frghtening. But he seems okay now. return works much more for me now.
Thanks. someone please give me the opinion on the three sith lords deal (and is Palpatine Darth sidious? Or is there some other guy? Is that three deal happening now as well?)
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I understand why there must be one sith lord and one apprentice. One must wonder how this works with Palpatine. If Darth Maul is his apprentice in the first one, one is to assume that he is killed. Palpatine looks for a new apprentice--anakin. then why is he looking for a third in return? To replace Vader? Is Vader weak to him? Or so that he can be replaced by vader and Vader can have Luke as his apprentice? That certainly explains why his method was to tell Luke to kill him.
On another note, does anyone realize thart we will be seeing the epic fight in return done again, except where Luke fails? Lucas has certainly worked his magic on me, because I've been thinking about that little boy wich would Darth Vadar ever since that first poster. I'm happy with all this. I was always pissed off that Vadar was totally terrifying in the first two but kinda weak in the last. i felt like Lucas had slept through his character, forgot to make him frghtening. But he seems okay now. return works much more for me now.
Thanks. someone please give me the opinion on the three sith lords deal (and is Palpatine Darth sidious? Or is there some other guy? Is that three deal happening now as well?)
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Well I have read most posts to do with sci fi here at aint it cool news. 90% of what JMS Forever says is BS. He always is on the attack of other sci-fi entertainment than B5 episodes. Lighten up a bit or shut the HELL up. You are getting on everyones last nerve
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First off, as usual Harry has it backwards, and it is the Star Wars Fanboys, unable to accept any critisism of their Religion, that are spewing the vitriole and four letter expletives. As for Star Wars itself and George Lucas's "story telling", let's face it, Star Wars is no more profound than the westerns of the 50's. All of his villains wear black hats and twirl their moustaches, that is they REVEL in being evil. Vader follows the "Dark" path... Why? Why would vader WANT to be evil? This is not a case of someone misguidingly making mistakes, or wrong decisions, this is a guy who WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY commits EVIL? This is not a case of conflicting ideologies, it is a case of plot device, and lazy writing. ALL of Lucas's characters are tremendously 2 dimensional. If you ask Tarkin or Vader or the Emperor "Are you evil?" they would simply smile, and say yes. That is why Vader's "redemption" is so shallow, he is NOT correcting a mistake (how could he, he KNOWINGLY committed evil), he is attempting a coup-d'etat. All in all, star Wars is not Myth, not legend, it is a Franchise, with about as depth or concern for the world as Micosoft or McDonalds...
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JMS - if you're going to state your opinions in such an inflammatory way, (i.e. referring to people with other opinions as 'losers'), then you have to deal with people responding with personal attacks. Chump no want da help, chump no get da help. Jive ass dude don't nothin' no how.
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Yeah, yeah, I know. My jive be rusty.
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What I find interesting are the pseudo intellectuals commenting on the interview claiming Tolkien, etc. did this and better and blah blah blah. And Joseph Campbell and the High Mighty Hectaflabbagon, blah blah blah. The only criteria for a successful 'Myth' is simply Does It Work? Obviously the myth did and still does work. For whom does it work? Everyone. Well, except probably 5% of people who either can't get past the sci fi aspect, or who believe themselves so above it all that they would never deign to stoop to the level of a 'kid's movie'. Who are you people fooling? Certainly not me. You have become so full of yourselves and what you believe your sophistication level is that you have forgotten what it is to enjoy the Myth without dissecting it to pieces. You have forgotten how to 'feel' the Myth inside of yourselves. Closed off, you have moved yourself into an intellectual sphere and forgotten and forsaken the heart and soul. I am sorry for you. In trying to tear apart something which others 'feel' for, you are showing the world that you cannot 'feel', comprehend, or are unwilling to admit the importance and relevance of what the Saga is about. More's the pity for y'all who 'don't get it'. As for myself, I will enjoy every moment.
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fascinating the vitrol thatflows from some of you people. i question the talkbacker who applauds some geek throwing popcorn at a lady who doesn't spooge at the trailer. i question those that whip out obscene insults to those that don't bow to lucas' whim. you're either under 15 years old, and therefore forgivably ignorant, or you're over 15 and have a limited grasp on reality. there's a real war going on right now, and this should inspire you to action, not "sw:tpm is goingto be the most greatest bestest moneymaking movie of all time." if lucas desires a return to myth, the lesson is lost on some of you, buried up to your neck in yoda pepsi cans and the umpteenth, overpriced 'collector's edition' whatever. i'm trying to understand the mindset of those who post 'fuck-off-pig-fuck-bastards' while fantasizing about anepic of heroes and villains...just to speak on your terms, would a jedi talk that way? check out a newspaper and see what this country is doing overseas, then apply that knowledge to your hyperdriven lust for 'star wars' whatever....
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Angel, lighten up - It's a MOVIE WEB SITE. Not CNN.com. Do you seriously think that people that feel like giving their opinions on a film haven't got a grasp on the conflict in Yugoslavia? Really. Yeah, I know. Us stupit pezzents need a good talkin' to sumtines. Shoot! What would Yoder think 'bout dat Milosubbbich feller?
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I guess for every fanatic there has to be someone that opposes them--whether you think Lucas is a genius or not, or whether he is pulling our legs in the interview conducted by Moyers, why come here and rant as if you are an expert? Peregrin, what do you know about storytelling? You know only what you like and yet you pontificate as if you are some authority figure. Where is your work? Can we read some? And to the folks who feel like they have to defend what they love against the words of those like JMS Whatever, stop responding to him. When I see a user id that belongs to someone who typically posts opinions that I do not agree with, I scroll right on by. It's really not worth getting angry over. Bottom line, folks: The Phantom Menace is nothing more than a movie, meant to be enjoyed. So I say, enjoy....
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First off, My dear Jullila, a movie is NOT a Myth. A myth must necessarily stem from some sort of tradition, and generally attempts to explains some sort of fundamental truth (ie Why are we here?). Does Star Wars do THAT for YOU? Star Wars is a simple tale, it is meant to be felt, you are right there. When I see an AT-AT I *feel* small, when I see Vader I *feel* intimidated, and when I see an Ewok I *feel* sick. And that's where the *fantasy* ends for me, and where I and some of my fellow posters cry BULLSHIT when we hear or read Lucas speak of his "profound" vision of Star Wars. Star Wars is a business, not a story. At BEST it is a story of a business venture. It is marketed more than ANY Softdrink, lownmower or brand name garment. And more to the point, the more people point to Lucas' "genius", the more movies will be released which contain 2 dimensional villains surrounded be pretty sfx. Jurassic Park and ID4 are DIRECT descendants of Star Wars. When was the last time you saw a hollywood movie which WASN't a glossy music video, with complex characters, suffering through every day life? If Lucas REALLY wanted to deal with a family drama, he would of made a movie ABOUT a family, and dropped the eye candy, and the "epic" struggle to save the galaxy. I do NOT object to Star Wars, I even LIKE Star Wars (ESB is among my all time favorites), but as long as people give into George Lucases Marketing Bullshit then ALL we will ever get is these kind of escapist fantasies, and we will NEVER see stories about REAL people ever again...
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Alright, here it is. In response to Lucas planning for nine movies all along. You are an idiot. He never claimed that. When Lucas originally wrote the movie for Star Wars, (originally entitled "Adventures of Luke Starkiller" I think) Lucas wrote a huge story that he originally planned for the first movie. The only movie. Although when he started realizing how epic this story would be and how long it would taketo tellthat story, he opted to remove things. He then promised himself, when given the chance, that he would reincorporate those ideas he dropped for the first movie into the next two movies. The prequels come only from backlogged stories that he had written only for the sake of character development. (For his own use.) He then made himself the promise that if the technology was ever there to tell the earlier stories the way he wanted to tell the first three, that he would. Only then. He never originally planned for nine stories. Originally, he only planned for one, which happened to be too long for one movie. If you doubt this, read the essays and the scripts available from the T'Bone website. I believe it is www.starwarz.com. At this site they have essays about the original scripts, what they were about, how they were changed, why they were changed, and so forth. If you have ever seen an interview with Lucas, he explains this also.
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Hey Lane, that's pretty damn awesome that you got the Trilogy Game. I went over to Dave & Buster's (arcade place for adults in Chicago) and spent like ten dollars to get through the whole game. Overall, I really like the game. Flying through the ships in the Battles of Yavin and Endor is a trip, to say the least. The one aspect of the game that I was slightly disappointed with is the fact that sometimes it's too much of a Point And Shoot - i.e. the Battle of Hoth you don't really have any control over where you're going. When you're on your speeder bike on Endor, you do have some control (i.e. to dodge trees), but not any REAL control. HOWEVER, the game easily makes up for this fact with its graphics AND (most importantly) the light saber duels. MAN, that gave me a rush - even though I got my ass kicked both times - once against Boba Fett, and the other against Vader. I have many questions: First, How much did it set you back? Second, how do you beat Fett and Vader and what happens when you do? It's tough the way they have it - up goes down and down goes up - took me a while to get used to when I was using the saber. Third, what's the best way to beat the AT-ST at the end of the ROTJ scene? Fourth, what happens when you win all the levels and win the end scene (I got through all the levels but only beat ANH and TESB)? Anything special or "secret" happen??? I just wanna know to see if it will be worth it to spend more money on the game. Thanks.
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Are you serious about the personal attacks thing? Will you take your own advice in the future? If you will then maybe your continued presence on the board is a good thing afterall... As for Eradan, um If you disagree with someone you simply scroll past? So you come to a discussion board to only read things you AGREE with? Wow, talk about your fragile psyches, of course by this point Eradan has stopped reading but for the rest of you remember that if we lived in a world where EVERYBODY agreed it would be a pretty awful place (anyone ever read 1984?). Or in terms that some of our younger readers might understand; Remember what Obi-wan said about "different points of view?"
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As someone who has READ all 4 drafts of ANH lemme say that YOU dpoole are an idiot. Everything of substance in the various drafts shows up in the Trilogy. There are certain GIMMICKS and side-elemnts which were left out but the story is pretty much there. And in interviews I have heard Lucas claim that his "Story" was every thing from 6 to 12 episodes long (3 trilogies PLUS a prequel trilogy). Now as for the "technology" being available to tell the stories... excuse me? Since when has technology had ANYTHING to do with telling a story? Are you one of the people who feel that the "Where's Waldo?" Special Editions were somehow an IMPROVEMENT over the originals? A good story, is a good story. Period. If Lucas had some driving desire to tell his story, he would have. The reason it wasn't was because business wise, making more Star Wars movies in the mid-eighties would have been a mistake, and besides lucas had no idea where to take his story anyways (hence the *Ewok* movies).
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Stating an opposing opinion is fine and, as you say, ought to be encouraged. I'm always looking to refine my ideas and ideals. So I don't mind being questioned or that some would disagree with me. I suppose the manner in which one states their opinion is what is key. As for yours opinion of me, it was written so that I had no problem understanding your meaning--it wasn't filled with expletives and comments made simply to annoy--although how you could know anything about my psyche from reading a single paragraph I wrote, I find rather amusing. You don't know me. Anyway, my point is that if garbage messages (insert your own definition of what constitutes garbage) are annoying and aggravating, skip them. Sort of like throwing away junkmail unopened. An open forum for discussion does not necessarily license one to blather rudely and uninformedly. Unfortunately, such things are sort of a by-product of these forums. Some don't understand that the best argument is a coherent one. If you'd like me to agree with you, convince me as to why I should.
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Just read the Lucas interview. Frankly, I'm disappointed..........
Lucas seems like he's seriously lacking in humility. Sure, he doesn't say crap like "I am the king of the world", but its even worse when someone begins to behave like he or she is the blessed one, saying their work, a extremely entertaining, (and I admit emotionally provoking at times) series of movies is intended to get youngsters to think about god, eternity, truth, etc. Lucas isn't writing real, eternal myths at all- he's coming up with a creative story. The only way to truly create a myth is to make your story and let the tests of time judge it. Will the Force, and Lucas's thoughts about good and evil ever compare to Paradise Lost or the story of Gilgamesh? Fuck no. Lucas hasn't got the gumption to make a real myth. Real myth makers don't go around saying "Hey, I'm creating myths" and acting pseudo-deep. There's a thin line between being thoughful and being self-important, and I think Lucas has crossed it, (though I don't think he realizes it). -
you're right, he did have about 6-12 stories that he told. But, if you look at the essays by him and other people close to the project, he specifically says that he did not intend to use them all in movies. He only had plans originally for one, then three. (Only because he could and the first was a success.) By originally, I only mean, when he first thought up the idea.
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As for GL, whethere we as moviegoers are consciously aware of the mythical elements or not, it is those very elements that make the story hold our attention, not the special effects. If it were just dazzling effects and action, there are plenty of other movies out there with as much punch as Star Wars.
The real criticism goes for that name-dropping pseudo-intellectual Bill Moyers, who thinks the height of intelligence is being able to quote some banal tripe from any two-bit psychologist or philosopher within reach at some University. C'mon Bill, is the interview about you or GL? Answer: Every Bill Moyers interview is a vehicle to show of his own lame mind. It's just like that game show, "Win Ben Stein's Money" only you get nothing but insulted for your ignorance.
By the way Lane, I think I like your politics, if not your movie opinions! -
Thank you, Dolfanar. I was fairly certain that Lucas had claimed the nine story intention around the time of the LaserDisc release of the trilogy; then it mysteriously disappeared into the background when so many fans began calling bullshit on it. Lucas is a big fan of revisionist history when it comes to his own legend. As for Dpoole, his response, "You're an idiot!", only indicates the depth of his intelligence and the calculating edge of his razor-sharp wit.
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To Lane: If JMS is such a clever Star Wars fan then why does he keep the same tired joke going on and on and on and on. If I were to make such a joke it would be mercifully short and I would never stoop to insulting strangers. There is nothing in JMS Forever's posts to indicate that he is just teasing anyone. The first thing he does in every talkback is to start calling STRANGERS "retards", "losers", and "morons". I happen to think that he is full of shit and would like to give him the opportunity to prove his courage. As abrasive as you can be I did see the tongue in cheek of you posts after the first few that I read, but JMS just keeps beating his head against the wall by insulting EVERYONE. Henry: As I said, you are entitled to your oppinion. But I think that you were wrong in your assessment of Lucas. Your post made a point which was contradictory to what was stated in the interview. I'm not "sensitive" to what you said. Like I stated I just think that you are wrong. I'm sorry if my comment to you seemed overly agressive after my backlash against JMS JMS: Now how did I just know that you would refuse the opportunity to prove what you've said all along. You know as well as anyone that my challenge has nothing to do with your oppinions on Lucas. I don't really care if you like him or not. If you simply said "I don't like Star Wars" I would say "Sorry to hear that, why not?" You've NEVER simply expressed an oppinion around here without making uncalled for insults. But that's OK, your refusal shows everyone who you really are. Perigrin: How would we know how a fictional power would work? I mean, how would we know what the "range" of Force powers would be? Wouldn't we have to ask Lucas? It just seems too much like debating the "physics" of the magical powers in Lord of the Rings.
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You bring up a good point, Seuss. The Dominant Gorilla (GL) is prone to assert his authority and self-importantness when in the presence of other self-important and pseudo-deep, though lesser, Gorillas (Moyer).
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That was a great interview. His explaination of the Sith floored me. Now I know where there can be only two, me and Darth Ebert. Ahh, but who is the master, and who is the apprentice!?
--Seriously, I've learned more about writing by reading the Lucas interviews in all the magazines out this month than in all my college writing classes combined!!
Never before have I been so inspired by another artist. -
If you guys point me to where one can find that stuff on him originally calling for 9 movies, let me know, I will apologize. I do not think he actually planned for nine movies though, I think he just had nine or so stories that helped him with the original three.
In another angle, think about this. You are happy with the original movies you created and the universe that almost everyone has reveled in. On the other hand, you have millions of fans that know about his other stories asking him to stop sitting on them. Bugging him everyday by the thousands. Just when the thought of the universe you created starts to become forgotten (by that I mean, not much more talk about them. There were still plenty of fans, myself included) he begins to wonder about his legacy, and decides to cave in to his fans. By dong so he is just creating the vision of his entire universe to the fans he thinks really want to see it. Now he finishes this first in the new three movies and the hype is through the roof. Of course, advertising agencies and companies see this and want to be there for the excitement. They offer him money to put his products and stuff onto their products and stuff. So what, how does this hurt the franchise, by making it more mainstream, so what if he wants to reach out and touch everyone with his vision. So what if he wants to try and blow Titanic out of the water (which I don't think will happen.) and put some cash in his pocket at the same time? I would do the same and if you say you wouldn't, then I am sorry to say you are lying.
And another thing, where were all these people making fun of James Cameroon for a shitty story with amazing FX (Titanic)? At least this story will have a great idea behind it. The story itself is leaps and bounds above that of Titanic, which by the way only had average acting and made a debacle of the Academy Awards.
People talk about the fact that he spent just a little over $110 million. So what. His original movie barely spent any money for the time either. Look what he did with it! Don't judge the movie until you see it as a whole. I am going in as open minded as I can for the most anticipated movie of the year. I think it is a sad day when people think that a good movie can only come from a ton of money being spent on it. -
I had a similar experience on this very board... You had just made a very compelling argument about the state of Hollywood today, but then followed up with a vitriolic and personal insult ridden post. And I thought "Hey, this LaneMyers is a bright guy, if only he concentrated on his arguments INSTEAD of belittling people then MAYBE people would take him seriously." I then remembered that I had made an awful post about how Star Wars fans enjoyed eating George Lucas' fecal matter... Well, even though I never regularly resorted to such nastiness, it still got me to realize that ANY argument which is framed by such garbage is as worthless as the cyber-paper it appears on... Anyway good for you Lane, I'm glad that my opinion of you was right, but ofcourse you realize that in the very next talkbalk we will probably attack each other with ferocity and language rarely seen outside a corrupt Alabama correctional facility, BUT atleast we will know where we are coming from... CHEERS!
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I hope my last post doesn't offend Alabamans... Alabanians... Abalonianians... Albatrossians... Alabalonians... anyway, you get the idea, I have nothing against you guys (even if you DO have that freakish all white with no pupils thing going...;^)
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LANE MYERS COMING OUT ON THE GOOD SIDE OF THE FORCE? WOW. I WISH I COULD RAISE THE ASTROBUCKS TO MAKE SUCH A PURCHASE. MAYBE I COULD USE THE JEDI MIND TRICK TO FORCE THE GAME WORKS UP HERE TO GIVE UP ONE OF THOSE MACHINES. THEY ONLY HAVE 4 OF THEM, FOR CHRISSAKE.
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Anyone who hasn't read the first 3 drafts of Star Wars I recommend it. It really underscores the PROCESS of revising a script (Although I still like his rough draft best...)
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I appreciate the thought, but I wish that we wouldn't throw around the word so loosely (Terry Fox, THERE was a hero!)
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dpoole, I think that you're right about the nine stories thing. I'll have to check around but I'm sure that Lucas stated in an interview that the "nine stories" idea was a myth among fans. He said that he created Star Wars with a BACK STORY to give it more depth. And I suspect that his motivation for making the new trilogy is more about new film technology being available than about money. I mean, the guy's already rich. Not that I have a problem with him making money. Look what the success of Star Wars did for filmmaking technique in general and imagine what Phantom Menace will do for the future. Even years ago Lucas expressed his frustration at not being able to perfectly depict his vision on screen and now the technology is available to do that. As for Dolfaners question about the Special Editions. I don't think that they're "better" than the originals except in the sense that they are closer to Lucas' original vision of what he wanted and that they gave an opportunity to test drive some new technology. It's like finding the last bits of trim to complete your '61 Jaguar E Type restoration. It looks slightly better but still does the same thing.
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As an aspiring fantasy writer (I have published nothing) I researched Joseph Campbell's work, whom, in case you don't know, has written many works on mythology that are, by many, highly regarded. All the great epic fantasies have foundations in mythology, so I thought it would be beneficial for me learn all that I could about mythology before I set out to write my big epic (and idea I have since abandoned). This is when I discovered the connection Campbell made between mythology and the Star Wars universe. I don't believe Lucas is creating mythology (or that he claims he is) but he has used elements of myth (intentionally or not) in his work, and this is partially why Star Wars possesses such mass appeal after all these years. Campbell's ideas are based upon the philosophies of Carl Jung, which assert that there is a universal subconscious that mythology taps into, explaining the appeal of mythology itself. Perhaps someone who has studied this more recently can elaborate more clearly. I imagine this why Time presented this interview with Lucas. Moyers has been associated with Joseph Campbell in the past.
Here's a question for everyone: why do you think Star Wars has retained its incredible world appeal for over 20 years? Surely, 20 years from now, nobody is going to regard films such as Independence Day as highly as Star Wars regard the aging trilogy. -
Lane Myers and I are in agreement. Hell has indeed frozen over. The day has come, the time of Armageddon is upon us. My father, Augustus Beauregard Helperton, said this day would come, but I did not believe him. I'm not sure what to do. I guess I can only say, "Right on, Mr. Myers" (my god, why does that leave such a bad taste in my mouth?) Lucas has begun to buy all of the bowing and scraping that everyone does for him. Sure, Moyers sort of drove Lucas directly into wind-baggedness with talks of Paradise Lost and various religions, but Lucas could have easily said, "Yes, I guess my movies could have been taken as religiously directed, but I'm just a regular joe who was lucky enough to put my imagination up on the big screen" Does Lucas take the path of humility, acting as a champion for being humble? No. He takes the path of one "who thinks his shit smells sweeter than most."
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The problem is that Lucas actually BELIEVEs that HE and ONLY HE is responsible for the success of Star Wars. He gives little credit to actors, writers producers or anyone else involved with the original trilogy. Proof of this is the fact that virtually NO ONE other tha Lucas will be working on the new trilogy... Where is Gary Katz? Lawrence kasdan? or Irvin Kershner? Sure some of them are up there in years, but had Lucas actually ASKED them to participate, don't you think they would have? The crux is that these men had the balls to say "George, are you sure you wanna do that?" they questioned him, Lucas had comparitivel *little* influence on the making of ESB, and it is a fantasy masterpiece. On the other hand Lucas was *all over* RotJ, and he hired a weak willed and malleable director and had Kenner cast the film for him... THAT is why I doubt TPM will be any good. On it's own that's not such a bad thing, BUT if TPM fails then we can say goodby to ANY sci-fi for AT LEAST a 10 year period. All I try to do, is to make sure people know that Star Wars ISN'T sci-fi, and even as far as fantasy goes, it's a little shallow, so hopefully the fate of TWO genres aren't tied up by the aspirations and foibles of ONE megalomaniac director...
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Ragnarok is upon us... Here's hoping you're in heaven a half hour before George Lucas knows your dead...
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Perhaps this is not the real Lane Myers that has been writing in. Perhaps the real Lane Myers is unconscious in his living room, after being forced into his normal hate-filled slumber by BIZARRO LANE MYERS. I submit that the Lane Myers from Bizarro world has knocked our Lane Myers out and is now spreading love, joy, and sense-filled instead of senseless comments on AICN. God have mercy on us all.....
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For every "Technical advance" that Star Wars fostered it also encourage soulless and shallow story telling, which is NOT an even trade-off. The Special editons are a perfect example... I love ESB, it is as tight a movie as I can imagine, did we REALLY *NEED* a shot of Vader going on his shuttle and returning to his ship?(especially with stock footage from RotJ) Did having Jabba in ANH justify the fact that the discussion he and han have is a recapsulation of the one Han greedo have? Was it necessary to have a gratuitess shot of Bobba Fett to give desperate fanboys a boner? A Jawa falls of a giant lizard and yells out comically, those cute litle flying robots, WOW I can see why he thought that Star Wars was such a disapointment... Having a 80 second expanded scene just to do a little plot relevatory scene (Look sir! Droids!). Or what about extracting the one of the ONLY instances of complexity and ambiguitivness in a character, by having Han Solo wait to be shot at before taking Greedo out... All with George saying that THAT's how he originally envisioned the scene? Excuse me, but the way it comes off in the SE Greeedo ends up looking like a Star Wars equivalent to Rain man (I buy my Blasters at K-mart. I'm an excellent sniper...). Shame on you HAn for killing an OBVIOUS invalid, are THESE the morals Lucas wants to show our kids? Gimme a break, Lucas is 99 parts Business man, 1 part director, 0 part artist...
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Obi-wan has obviously given in to the hate-filled, dark side of the force. If you're not careful, and don't quit throwing out obscenities against others, you might end up like Darth Maul. You don't want that..........he's got really bad teeth.
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Damn first Lane Myers, and now Obi-wan kenobi, Jedi Master, swearing like a drunken sailor! Is anybody safe? Helpy what should we do? PS I still think Darth Maul has a REALLY bad case of Klingon Acne (Star Wars: Insurection *shudder*)
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ARGHH!!!! THROUGH SOME SORT OF TELEPORTATIONAL DEVICE, BIZARRO LANE MYERS HAS MATERIALIZED IN MY DEN AND WANTS TO HUG ME!!!!!! BACK YOU HARBINGER OF JOY AND INTELLIGENCE!!!!! WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL LANE? I WANT TO BE INSULTED WITH CURSING LIKE I'M BEING BEATEN WITH A NIGHTSTICK!!! I WANT COMMENTS ABOUT MOVIES THAT MAKE NO SENSE AND ARE OFFENSIVE!! I WANT THE REAL LANE!!!!! NO, I WILL NOT SIT DOWN TO A NICE CUP OF TEA AND TALK ABOUT FEELINGS, BIZARRO LANE!!!! GET BACK!!! SOMEONE HELP ME, PLEASE!!!!!
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It seems that most of what you object to is, what? Marketing? My goodness, whatever are your feelings regarding various Christian churches and their own advertising campaigns? Some of them even go door to door to sell their own version of Myth! Heavens forfend! I never claimed that Lucas invented Myth or the Hero's Journey or anything like that. Myth is made in the human mind. Shall we go all Jungian on everybody here? Would it do any good? Basically, you're trying to argue something that doesn't hold water. What you are trying to say is that no matter how many people have been touched by the Trilogy, or how many people 'get' the mythos surrounding it, that it is somehow invalid. I ask again, does it work? That is the only criteria you can use. Whether or not Pepsi makes Yoda cans, or Mattel makes toys is neither here nor there in the issue. Does the Star Wars mythos (no matter what other mythos it is derivative of) touch people? Do they feel enriched? Does it tell them something in a way that nothing else can? What do *they* think about it? Easy to sit in your white tower and compare representations of Darth Maul to Milton's Satan...wonderful passtime, praise the gods that someone thinks. But you can't deny the power that the Star Wars mythos has had on millions of people. In the end, what Lucas has done with his retelling of this mythos is bring it up to date, make it relevant. Biblical mythos or Greco-Roman mythos does nothing for anyone if no one can connect with it anymore in a personal way. It doesn't matter whether or not the Myth as Lucas has used it means anything to you. The Christian Mythos means nothing to me, but that doesn't make it invalid. Star Wars is powerful and vivid and yes, even life changing for many. There's nothing you can say about that, and there's no arguing it. It works.
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Ask him to calculate pie to the last decimal place... wait, sorry wrong franchise...
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But, I do agree that staying within the topic IS VERY IMPORTANT!!! I don't think that anyone should dedicate entire posts to bashing one person. (ie: Quentin's obsession with reposting that thing that Porter said about Lane. It's low, it's lame it betrays exactly how worthless and meaningless a person actually is.)
Stay on topic and by example, I think there will be interesting discussion here instead of the usual lowest common bullshit that usually permeates every single talk back. Especially on the subject of Star Wars.
I do think that taking JMS too seriously is stupid, because he obivously has a deep love of all things Lucas, Just examine his uncanny knowledge of the subject.
JMS would be greatly aided by taking more time into coming up with original things to say about Star Wars and Lucas in general other than posting the same thing again and again. That's annoying. But, I agree with Lane. Every now and then, he posts something truly funny. -
Actually I find the prostituting of religion distastful and sad, which sort of makes the rest of your post kinda moot...
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I know part of the fun of watching movies is thinking about how you would've done something better...or at least different. But people constantly bash the *appearance* of things. Regardless of whether you hate teddy bears, the FUNCTIONAL element of the Ewoks was to imitate the Viet Nam war...the non-technological Ewoks helped defeat the great war machine of the Empire. So what if you don't like what they look like. If they had been, say, more menacing, cool looking, scaly lizard-like creatures, the thematic essence wouldn't have been the same. So what if the Gungans have big floppy ears. This isn't your universe, it's George's. When the movie comes out, criticize its effectiveness in regards to plot, character development, acting, etc. In the mean time, you are certainly free to write your own movie where small teddy bear-like creatures a killed off.
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First, before I get started, do you notice how, when I replied thoughfully and kindly to peoples arguements, and nobody paid attention???????????
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The first shout outgoes to JMS Forever.Foster's challenge is very valid. He is asking if you have the courage to back your arguments up in person. You know as well as I do that Star Wars people, like B5 people, (hell like most scifi people) fight vigorously to get people to listen or watch scifi, because the general populace still reguards sci-fi as some sort of lunatic litertaure. I have gotten into arguements with my teachers over the fact that we don't deal with sci-fi in schools. Foster is asking you if you have as much faith in your arguements
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Next to Henry Chinaski--I think, at least for most authors, they don't realize everything their work implies. I am reminded of 2 things. The first is time, I was reading an interview done with Asimov (hey, he is my favorite sci-fi author) and he was telling about a time when he was disscusing a novel with someone, who read something into it that Asimov had put there intentionally. His quote was "Just because you wrote it doesn't mean you understand everything in it" And another time when at one of my friends collage, they brought in a guest speaker, and he got into an arguement about what is novel was about. I think that in general, most authors do not know why they are writing what they are writing, but it "feels" right (say that three times fast). Afterwords, they look back and say, yea, that makes sense, or no it doesn't because I felt such and such way when I wrote it. How art relates to society always occurs after the artist has finished it, not before. And as for Foster's post to JMS, I don't know if you have been following the last Star Wars post (this is still to Henry), but last time JMS gave us a very vivid description of where and what he would be doing on TPM opening day. Most of us didn't want to hear it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Now on to Dolfanar. For Vadar, and for the Emperor, it isn't about being evil, it is about power and control. They think they deserve to control everything, and that all people and things should bow to their ideas and beliefs. I mean, it is no different than trying to figure out why Hitler, or Alexander the Great would want to rule the world. I think it would be a burecatic nightmare. It is the old saying, power corrupts, and absolute power corupt absolutely (if I messed it up, you know what I mean)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To LaneMeyers, You can call it whatever you want, and I think you are right in that it won't accomplish what we hope it will, but it is still a war. Also, you aint going to find humility or humbleness anywhere in this world in this day and age. Everyone is PROUD OF THEIR HUMILITY.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------And finally, I figure, that since I conducted myself with dignity throughout this post, I deserve a little bit of a break, and can say the following, even if it is blunt
1. ROTJ is the best of the three
2. I THINK THE EWOKS KICK MAJOR BUTT. I think they add a lot to the overal story development in ROTJ. I think they are cute and cuddly, and they can be dangerous as all hell. Oh, and just to throw a wrench in the works, I also think the fifth season of B5 kicked but, and I think Armeggedoen kicked but! -
Whether or not you agree with making money off mythos doesn't matter. That's a completely subjective criteria which has nothing to do with whether or not something is considered 'myth'. If this were true, then Christianity would be deemed invalid on the basis on revenue. All told, I'm sure that the Catholic Church makes far more money per year than Lucas. Distasteful or not, it's a fact of life. However, it doesn't invalidate the message to those who hear it.
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Well, what a nice young man that Bizarro Lane Myers was. After placing a little implant into my brain, he has left, and I feel much better. Anyone want a hug? Can I make anyone a nice hot toddy? Julilla, how about you? Oh wait, you're too busy buying into the whole Lucas can create real myth hubbub. Certainly, if one SAYS that he is "creating myth" and seeking to challenge the religious minds of youngsters with a SCI-FI movie, he MUST be doing so. Shame on all of you that doubted Lucas and thought he did the original movies and future movies for the money. I've a mind to not invite all of you over for milk and cookies later.
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ONLY 115 Mil??? Last time I looked, that was one heckuva big sum. Not only that, but I believe it was all Lucasfilm's money. In short, he financed the whole thing, not some freakin studio. When you believe in a project enough to pour most of your assets into it, then I'll listen to you. Until then...
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Now JMS claims to be the benevolent sharer of simple, humble oppinion who has never offended anyone until the big bad Foster Zygote swooped down and attacked him. I read several of his unprovoked and noxious posts to other people befor I decided to flame him the first time. And now he'd like to back out by claiming that he was just ribbin' us. Horseshit! That kind of humor might work with good friends but I'd like to suggest he go to some bar and pick a stranger and start insulting him. Then when the guy stands up to beat his ass I'd like to see him urinate submisively and say "But it was just a joke, wasn't it obvious?"
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Hey Fokker, are you an aviation enthusiast? **** P.S. Who ruined the page? I'm getting carsick! *HORRRRF*
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To the Ewok lover... First off the Vietnamese as Ewok argument has been slammed down so very hard on this board before that I wil not bother to comment on it, it is such a narrow sighted and silly comaparison... As for whether the Ewoks would have been more acceptable as giant scaly lizards, as our british posters would say, BULLOCKS! In any movie where an ostensilbly desperate and crucial war is played for laughs, and cuteness factor, my Bullshit meter peaks. Watch Empire, remember the desperation of the Rebels? Rememmber how anxious you were when the retreat order is announced and how those poor bastards had to run to their ships while being sniped off at will by AT-At's? THAT is desperation, RotJ is a PARODY of that scene, nothing more, nothing less...
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anyone to not post their opinions, no matter how much I disagree with them. However, JMS Forever, you have no basis for your arguments. You just spout "Star Wars sucks!" and watch all the posters fall all over themselves to respond. You have claimed that the CGI effects look horrible. I don't agree - i think they are the most impressive I've seen in some time. You claim the story is for children. Yes, it is. So what? Just because I'm a 29-year old doesn't mean that I can't enjoy a great children's story? I crank out The Wizard of Oz at times, or some Disney classics as well, because I enjoy them, and not for nostalgia reasons, either. And great children's stories are allegories for older, adult themes - such as the father/son discord in the Trilogy, or hell, the entire film of Bambi. You think the Ewoks suck. Well, I agree, but I also know what Lucas intended with them, as does most everyone else. It is one thing that didn't work exactly as intended out of, what, several hundred ideas that did? I can also appreciate the fact that Lucas did not pull his refashioned myths out of thin air. Some posts previously have said, "Whoa, you know who Joseph Campbell is. How pretentious of you." If you had actually stopped to read Hero of a Thousand Faces it's not as pretentious as all that - it's actually pretty easy to follow. And, I might add, the Wachowski Bros. used the same template for The Matrix. I don't care if people don't think Star Wars is very original - there are only about 12 real plots in existence anyway, with various takes on them in different stories. Shakespeare took all the best of them. All I really know is, in the end, I love Star Wars, for nostalgia reasons, for story reasons, for love of cinema reasons, for a multitude of them. If you don't, fine. But if you attack those who are actually enjoying themselves and their love for something, you are the lowest common denominator of class. Because, in the end, you are forgotten. Believe me, the last peson I will be thinking of as I sit in that darkened theater on 5/19 will be JMS. Why should I? So, post away. With every word you type you guarantee a long stay in anonymity. Have fun, bye-bye now.
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As for the bullshit of saying JMS's crap to a crowd waiting for TPM. Well obviously if he did he would get the crap beaten out of him, which is more an indictment of Fanboys than anything else. The fact that their insecurities and blind devotion to Star Wars would cause them to result to physical violence, or even the THREAT of physical violence shows how small minded and intellectually backrupt they are. The fact that this goes against EVERYTHING star wars SUPPOSEDLY stands for is interesting because it proves that Star Wars is becoming an obssession which borders on Religious fanatism where the "message" which Lucas claims is in his movies is lost to the trappings and hype. "I would hate to find ourselves in a [...] world where entertainment was passing for some kind of religious experience" too late George, looks like you're wrong again... Let's face it, to the Star Wars fanatics, any "story" or "message" in Star wars is lost among all the "cool spaceships" which go "POW! POW!" in a complete vaccum...
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Lane, I'm hunting you down, killing you, and stealing your arcade game. That game is the GREATEST ARCADE GAME EVER!! In 3 weeks, the semester and finals will be over, and I get to go home and then go to Sony and play that game!! Drool...........
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Everybody is bitching up a storm about Lucas' comments that the movie is made for 13 year olds. Well, I don't know about all of you but when I watched the ANH re-release in '97, I felt chills on my spine and suddenly I was 4 years old again, watching in awe as that story unfolded. Sure, an hour after the movie was over I was reflecting on the bad dialogue and horrible acting but to this day, whenever I hear that music . . . mmmmmmmmmmm. They may not be the best movies ever, but there's something so special, so uniting about the SW saga. The good v. evil, sword fights, spaceships, all of it. If someone could point to another movie that has had that kind of an impact, I'd be mighty impressed. And if the current crop of dumbshit, beeper-wearing teens who like crappy movies like "The Matrix" and "Titanic" don't enjoy TPM . . . fuck 'em. There are plenty of people over 20 who are DYING to see TPM. Let the teens sit through their Leonardo DiCaprio dreck and Cameron Diaz lame-ass movies.
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It's real cool you like those flicks and responded in a nice and quorteous manner, BUT FUCK YOU!!! Thanks for fucking up the talk back ASSHOLE!!!
PLEASE STOP POSTING LONG, UNBROKEN LINES OF TEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU, THAT YOU CAN'T REMEMBER THAT??? This talk back is officially dead for me, because this back and forth shit kills my neck. Thank you, so very, very fucking much you moron!
Well First off, I am still getting use to these talkbacks, and I was trying to provide line breaks. I am sorry that it turned out like it did, but I was trying to make it easeier to read. and weren't you going to try and be nice Lane -
The problem is that BECAUSE of Star Warses success we have our current crop of soulless image intensive 1.5 second cuts, crapfests like Titanic and the Matrix...
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...download it, I haven't had ANY problems with widescreen ever since I upgraded...
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I have decided that I will never, ever, EVER read another "talk back" again. To quote William Shatner (from SNL): Get a life, will ya, people?! It's just a movie!! I think everyone is reading waaaaaaaaay too much into the whole Star Wars saga. Granted, I haven't read the article yet, and I probably won't. I'm tired of the hype, and plot points being revealed. I just want to see the movie. After that, I'll probably analyze the good and bad points just like everyone else.
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Actually, I enjoy the fact that you broke up your paragraphs. Thank you.
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Hey, the personal attacks thing just sort of happens sometimes. We've all done it at some point (unless you are some sort of Jesus-like turn-the-other-cheek type). I don't mind it, as long as the other party is willing to back up what they say and take as good as they give. On the one hand, I've traded broadsides with Foster Zygote and others, and by Jove it felt good. Other people whine and bitch about how "inappropriate" these types of exchanges are, and to them I say, you don't like it, there's the door! Of course, if you are going to attack someone else, you'd better have opinions you can back up forcefully. Else it's just childish name-calling. ANYWAY....about the George Lucas interview: personally I think he is taking the whole thing a bit seriously, but then again, Gene Roddenberry thought Star Trek could save the whole world or something. Filmmaker types are egotistical by nature. As for how the movie turns out, I hope Phantom Menace is better than Return of the Jedi. I thought that movie WAS "dumbed down" considerably, probably for maximum marketing $$$. However, it was most likely the result of director Richard Marquand, not GL. And we shouldn't say anything bad about the dead, right? ........... P.S. Lucas should let Irving Kirshner direct Ep.2, he made ESB the best of the three, in my opinion.
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Direwolf has not read the article, but feels justified in giving his opinion on it? He and OrionSaint are perfect examples of the kind of fanatism which come April 19th will be derithed and made fun of by the Mainstream Media, and will hurt the movie, and in turn the Sci-fi community... As for Michael5000, um, if I understand you correctly, you want George Lucas to inject more Christian Fundamentalism into Star Wars? Did I misinterpret? "I believe all those Jewish prophets were right about the coming of the messiah (Yeshua/Jesus), I just wish George could dig on it." Flah? Meh? Jah?
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Pure and simple, like my title says. If this were Christen propoganda, then I might be inclinde to hear more of what you said, but it isn't.
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Yes Warrior, I must admit that our broadsides were quite fun. Heehee.
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I am SICK AND TIRED of this happening to Talkbacks. I came out before against banning unless it's for severe offenders, but in this matter, I am calling for ZERO TOLERANCE. It FUCKS UP good discussion when someone who is clueless puts five billion --------'s or ........'s in their GODDAMN POST!!!!!!!! THERE SHOULD BE AN IMMEDIATE BAN OF ALL WHO ARE GUILTY!!!! IGNORANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE!!!! Sometimes I wonder how "accidental" it really is, when it ALWAYS seems to happen on Star Wars talkbacks. FUCK THIS!!!! I refuse to hurt my eyes by scrolling back and forth any longer! DAMNIT PROPH, what the HELL is wrong with you?!?!?!?!?!?!?
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www.microsoft.com, look for INTERNET EXPLORER 5, sure once you you've got it and use it, you feel like you've personally bent over and allowed Bill Gates to insert his floppy disk up your disk slot, but the damn program works *really well*...
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Like I said Lane, now I know, so you won't see it fuck up agian.
And as for PDaddy, somehow I doubt you are fucking perfect. Like I said, I am still learning all of the technical ropes. But if you are that fucking perfect, why aren't you in charge yet?> -
Star Wars says things that affect how you live? May I recommend some kind of counselling, or possibly lend you change for the shuttle ride back to the mother ship?
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Props to Dolfanor for taking a thought-out non-derisive but assenting opinion like Michael5000's so seriously. Oh wait (just kidding). But i understand why he took Michael5000's opinion the way he did. We've oddly created a climate here where one s either for or against Star Wars: doubts are not an option. Just kinda sad; I think this is how wars are started.
But in response to Michael5000. I don't know if one could characterize what Lucas said as a wimpy version of some Eastern religion. i know the popular opinion is that the force idea is a watered-down Buddhism (though, just to add my two cents, it's closer to neo-Confucianism. read some of Chu Hsi's discussion of "material force" and you'll get what I mean), and I agreed until reading the interview. But Lucas said one important thing that stuck out at me: "I don't know." The guy is trying to construct his set of beliefs instead of adopting a pre-existing set. I admire that. He's obviously very well-read in eastern thought and something clicks to him about it, but he's a westerner steeped in western culture and values, which is going to present some contradictions and a lot of "I don't know"s (I hate to simplify it down to Western versus Eastern, but the distinction is more valuable than people give it credit for. To any Taoist/Buddhist/Confucianist that feels ticked off that they're being lumped with some very different religions, I apologize). Lucas is intelligent enough to recognize certain elements common to all religions, which is probably the only way religion can be presented is such a diverse world. Otherwise all but one religious group would be pissed off for being excluded. And to be fair, most of the one religion used would feel misrepresented, no matter what the level of accuracy.
So between those two forces of being unsure himself and having to not estrange a whole lot of people, i think one can understand why the force is not entirely recognizable as one religion.
That's all for me.
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Actually this black or white attitude is what Star Wars is ALL about, and if you read my posts you will see that I kinda go both ways. I like Wars but hate what it's done to movies. As far as Mike5k's post, I was ACTUALLY asking for an explanation of his point of view... his final sentance is kinda vague, and I was wondering what his dissertation on religion had to do with this talkback other than to say that Lucas watered down Budhism for use in Star Wars...
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Dashes and Dots, PDADDY? How about utter knuckleheads like yourself, who fill their postings with one million CAPITAL LETTERS? Now, I've been known to add a few uppercase letters from time to time, but you complaining about others is laughable. I am waiting for you to call for ZERO TOLERANCE on this subject. Tell Harry you deserve to be banned for your own sins, then worry about other people, you clod.
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I was gonna say something but then I became ill. Back and forth ad infinitum. Ohhhh. *Mrrhp* *BBLOORRRRCH* Oh crap, my keyboard! Anyone have a breath mint? What a waste of a Guinness.
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Alen Guiness said it best. Not long after the release of the first Star Wars movie, someone asked him why it was so successful. He replied simply, "Its a dashing story, elegantly told."
Many of you posting here may have been too young to remember what the movie world was like when Star Wars first hit the scene,(I encourage you to do a little research on the subject...you'd be suprised at how things have changed) so I am speaking to all of you forty-plus year olds (I know you're out there.)
Like me, you may have been wondering what the heck you were going to do with your life. Like me, you may have been a a little bewildered, a little uncertain, and just maybe a little scared. Do you remember what you felt when you saw young Luke staring at the two suns of Tatooine? Do you remember a wistfulness, a yearning to find your path in life?
THAT is the cord Star Wars struck with me. NO, these movies did not give me guidance in my life's direction, nor did they 'show me the way', or give me any kind of faith in God. I found those things on my own. What these movies DID do is strike a cord for those of us who wanted to be more than what we were - to find a path that suited us. I like to think that, maybe most of us did.
Is there anybody else out there that felt these things?
That is what Star Wars means to me...a dashing story, elegantly told. -
I am sick and tired of people MAKING up quotes JUST to prove a point, Alen Guiness NEVER said that... I seem to remember ALEC Guiness saying that but I believe ALEN had no comment...
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Uh...that was a typo, not a misquote...mu apologeezes.
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A Bantha ate Billy Barty's baby.. Hey guys, Why so excited? Hate is the path to the dark side, you know. LaneMyers, I sense much fear in you...
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A Bantha ate Billy Barty's baby. Hey guys, why so much anger? Hate is the path to the dark side. LaneMyers, I sense much fear in you...
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SSaaaaaddddd!!!!!!
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Relax Kid, I was just pulling your leg (I do that sometimes (generally in my shorter posts)) PS I bet it's been a while since you've been called kid, eh old timer ;^)...
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proph, sorry for ripping you a new asshole, but this happens so often and i hope you can understand how it makes the talkbacks virtually unreadable and can frustrate some of the regulars. jus don't even attempt any kind of formatting on this site... at least until some changes are made here (when i take over that is!!!!!!) to warrior, actually i thought that i tended to go pretty light on the caps, except when i'm pissed about something - especially relative to lane. i do tend to cap the word "not" quite a bit - just for emphasis. since you can't underline, or italicize, or bold, or change font colors here, capitalization is the only way to express any kind of emotion. as to the clod comment, FUCK YOU YOU DAMN ASSHOLE MOTHERFUCKER COCKSUCKING DICKHEAD!!!!!!! ok, i was just kidding there, but you see how an occasional capitalized word or two can add something to a post and really get your attention????
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I mean, really, are we all that cynical that we actually can't buy into a fantasy film for a couple of hours without ripping its creator to shreds? Man, I've had it. As I said before, please don't show up on 5/19, I'm fucking begging you. By the way, a post somewhere way up above said that GL shouldn't take full credit for the Star Wars phenom...I agree. It's his world, and there are literally thousands of others who contributed to it. My personal favorite is Ralph McQuarrie - his visions of a galaxy far, far way continue to knock me on my ass. I'm done for the night. I'll read the rest of you in the morning.
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Sorry, but I don't go in for those back door shenanigans...
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Has anyone noticed that JMS has a new post for virtually every single posting that attacks her? It's like she posts something to stir shit up, then chortles uncontrollably as she waits and checks back every 5 minutes--all day long--for responses. She uses AICN's talkback like most people use IM's. I read only the top fourth of the posts, and she responded like 5 TIMES or so. JMS--I seem to remember you saying a while back that you really don't hate SW, but you just like to stir up the geeks a bit. Well I'm sure that's true, but it just makes you look even more pathetic! Especially when that's ALL you do ALL day long! You must be some kind of burly, ball-busting bull-dike who can't get a date to seek attention like that. And who's the assface that stretched out the posts? This scrolling shit is for the motherf@#&ing birds. Finally, is anyone else disappointed that there can only be 2 dark side users at a time? What happened to Lucas saying during filming that the master/apprentice rumor was false and that we will see "many, many, dark Jedi"??? Sorry if I have offended anyone, so email any dissenting comments to: shoveitupyourass@aol.com.
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A lot of posters have been accusing Lucas of being some kind of holier-than-though would-be prophet. Why?? What does the man say to make him sound like one? All he says is that he incorporates some classical myth archetypes into his films. All stories recreate myth to a certain extent - Joseph Campbell wrote about how most popular stories in western culture are just permutations of myth. Most stories are just versions of the archetypal Hero's Journey, in which the Hero finds dissatisfaction with his life and goes on a quest of sorts to undergo spiritual renewal. Star Wars follows this formula slavishly, but guess what? So does just about every other Hollywood film ever made. Do yourselves a favor and read The Writer's Journey by Christopher Vogler. It's a book about writing for movies based on Joseph Campbell's works. It clearly shows how just about every popular movie ever made does just what Star Wars does. Star Wars is just a little more overt about it, presenting an ambiguous fantasy world upon which we can more easily impress our own personal visions. I think the reason Star Wars has done better than many other films is that Lucas tries to do what he wants - he wants to present his own vision without giving in to marketing executives. Rather than pandering to them, they pander to him, because they know Star Wars sells - not because it was marketed from the beginning with a hype machine (didn't FOx feel the first film would be a huge flop?) but because it's a damn good movie series which people adore. In the interview, Lucas was just innocently mentioning the simple motifs he utilized as well as his hopes and goals for his films - he didn't say that they were sacred. Nevertheless, Star Wars is the most successful franchise of all time - isn't it understandable to expect the creator to try to explain its amazing success? There's gotta be something about it, and the man ain't arrogant to discuss what he thinks it is.
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God, I hate it when someone posts something so stupid that, even though you try to ignore it, it sits in your mind and festers until you just have to respond somehow. What I am talking about is the vomitous stupidity of making the analogy of the Ewoks in ROTJ to the Vietnam conflict. I know this is off the subject of this Star Wars article, but I cannot believe someone is so profoundly ignorant as to believe it, so I have to post a response to it. There are several reasons this analogy is bullshit, but the two main ones are: 1, this analogy makes the Communists the 'good guys', and the U.S. forces the 'bad guys'. I am no raging jingoist, but this insults everybody who has an uncle, brother, father, or themselves served in Vietnam. 2. The North Vietnamese Army wasn't 'no-tech' or even 'low-tech'. They had automatic weapons, surface to air missiles, mines, bombs, tanks, jets, everything a well-dressed army needs.
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Apr 20, 1999 3:32:30 AM CDT
About Ewoks and Vietnam...(I can't believe this is titled that)
by nordling
Look, gunny, you may not like it, but Lucas has stated as much in many interviews on the subject. He said it wasn't the Communist/US conflict part he was trying to portray, but the simple vs. the technologically advanced. If you think otherwise, you're not paying attention. Lucas was never in Vietnam, so how would he know what really went on there - he's just going by what his generation understood Vietnam to be.
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Pure and simple JMS, where is your proof. You show me evidence that he is a copycat and a hack, and I will shut up. But, up until this point, you have not produced one single shred of evidence supporting your view. And don't say Return of the Jedi, because I don't care what anyone says, THAT IS THE BEST OF THE THREE, AND THE EWOKS KICK MAJOR BUTT!
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What does training have to do with anything? Strength in the force is regarded throughout the series as an inherent ability of several of the main characters. It is obvious from the get-go that Luke is destined to become a Jedi Master, and that, although he needs training to hone his skills, the ability to use the Force is something he was born with. Now why would whether or not Luke has received any training have anything to do with Vaders ability to locate him? Family relationships play a big role throughout the series and while I might be willing to believe that Vader wouldn't be able to locate a total stranger, he should certainly be in tune with his own son. And likewise his daughter. If Luke has the ability in Empire to "search his feelings" and determine that Vader is his father after only a short period of training, certainly a master on the level with Vader should have been able to determine that Leia was his own daughter regardless of whether or not she was a Jedi. The mind tricks and other stuff all work on Jedi and Non-Jedi alike, so why would determining your own flesh and blood not? As for the inanimate matter part I think that really is a broad stretch to say that "how we interact with crude matter determines our fate", in fact I would say that Star Wars, if it claims anything, claims the exact opposite. The film is based upon the idea that crude matter does not determine our fate, rather what is pure in our hearts and noble in our blood does. Hence everyone's inability to destroy the Death Star in Epidode I with the aid of computer targetting systems -- only Luke can make the shot and only with the strength that relies in him. Furthermore, the Empire can be seen as a society that relies wholly on crude matter (they have the best machines, weapons, etc.) and they are certainly corrupt and decadent. Therefore I am forced to conclude that our fates are in no way determined by our interactions with crude matter, rather they are incidental and possibly destructive. I think it is overwhelmingly obvious that Lucas has the force do nothing much else but move boxes because of the poor condition of effects technology in the late seventies and early eighties -- that's all he could do, it looks pretty cool, and it's really just a plot device...
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You are absolutely right. Movies are suppossed to be fun. But it isn't me that ripped the fun right from Star Wars, it is Lucas once he started claiming that the force is a metaphor for religion aimed at forcing young people to think about their faith and spirituality and all the other complete and total bullshit he spouts in that ridiculous interview. Lucas is the one who claims his work is beyond fun and on par with Homer, Milton, Dante, Tolkien, and probably Shakespeare and Virgil as well [not to mention his miraculous blending of all the worlds religious figures into a red-face guy], and I certainly have the right to criticize it. I find it funny how [for the most part] all the intelligent comments on this posting are critical of Lucas, and all the defenders of Lucas just curse and yell and scream like little children, rather than responding to the criticism with something intelligent, well thought out, and constructive. I feel that it is overwhelmingly obvious that if you had a defense you would state it, but since you don't you resort to these juvenile tactics. How is the fact that I haven't told any stories yet any indicator of my ability to analyze Star Wars? Are you claiming that Lucas now owns the rights to the concept of "logical and critical thinking"?
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The second part of my previous comments are in now way aimed at you, rather they refer to the rabid Star Wars robots...
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THE PHYSICS OF MAGIC. Granted it would be out of place in a film to digress from the subject long enough to set out rigid rules defining the limitations of the force, but we should certainly be given the impression that the force is subject to some type of law -- whatever it may be. Even if we have no knowledge of the physical law governing an action, we can certainly be aware that whatever we are observing is in fact governed by some such rule. For example: you don't need to know Einstein's General Theory of Relativity and all the heavily complicated four-dimensional tensors that go along with it to realize that an apple falls to the ground or that if you jump out of a building you will probably get hurt. My point is that Lucas's use of the force follows no logical structure. It just works whenever he feels that it should, which feels is why it feels really fake. Compare that to the rigid realism of Tolkien's Middle-Earth where, even though much of it is not explicitly stated in the trilogy [although if you read his notes and the Silmarillion it is all there], there is most definitely a "physics of Middle-Earth" -- although it is different from the world we know. I am confident that even if you were to ask Lucas how the force works, he wouldn't be able to provide any answer whatsoever [short of the type of nonsense he shovels in his interview] because he truly hasn't thought about it in the least [contrary to all his claims]. I know I keep mentioning Robert Jordan's novels, but I just hope that someone reading these posts is in fact familiar with the series -- they can then attest to how magic can be rigidly determined by a complex set of rules and still function as fantasy.
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First of all, the Force IS of course a fictional plot device created by Lucas as an ananolgy for the unknown wonders of the universe. If lucas were to come out with a book that was all about the Force that wasn't intended as pure entertainment then I really WOULD worry about him. I don't think he intendedthe the Force to be some sort of omnipotent power. It seems to be more of an energy around the user than some sort of UPC code of the soul. Even if Vader could sense someone trillions or even quadrillions of miles away how would he distinguish Luke from all the "noise" of the billions or quadrillions of beings within range? When Vader is on the Death Star he can sense a force presence with a vague familiarity but it takes him a few hours to recognize it as Obi Wan. And when he has Lukes X-Wing in his sights he can sense that it's pilot is strong with the Force but how is he to realise that this is his son? Didn't Obi Wan say that Luke was hidden from Vadar at birth? How would Vader recognize Luke never having seen him (or felt his presence) before? As to how Vader learned of Luke's identity I don't know. And to why he couldn't recognize his daughter I don't care. All this talk about Ewoks and the real problem to me was how flat the "You're my sister" thing fell. It contrasts so poorly with the greatest moment in the whole trilogy IMHO: "No, I am your father" (pause-dramatic music swell)
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Hey JMS, you do realise that the Ewok TV shows were for kids don't you? Oh, but that's right, you beat up on your little nephews for liking the Power Rangers. JMS you so baaaad! (theme from Shaft playing)
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Despite being a devout Star Wars fan (like all good Americans), I am unable to repress a convulsive shudder at any mention of the nauseating 'Ewoks', that thinly-veiled marketing ploy that so degraded Return of the Jedi. This is a condition I share with most Star Wars viewers aged 16-40. Anyone who claims otherwise is either lying through their teeth, or a foreign spy. Thus, one can imagine my pleasure at the sight of...
Jar Jar Binks: shriek his name with me in terror.
As we've seen from the two Episode 1 previews, Jar Jar is (to quote the April 26th issue of Time, containing said article and interview with Lucas), "a computer-birthed frog boy...a vexing, endearing mix of Kipling's Gunga Din and Tolkien's Gollum, [who] speaks in a pidgin English ('Yousa Jedi not all yousa cracked up to be!') that will be every kid's secret language this summer."
Are you convulsing yet?
Lucas submits that "Of all his 'actors', [he] is proudest of the digital Jar Jar: 'We have the first photo-realistic character that acts.'
Jar Jar, for whom the actor-dancer Ahmed Best was both the voice and a rubberized stand-in, took years to develop. "He was Tex Avery cartoonish in style," says [art department head] Doug Chiang, "with large eyes and a big mouth.' He was given short ears, but Lucas insisted on long ones. The comically androgynous shape came later.
Now it's dark: A comically androgynous (one of the uglier sides of the 90s) lisping, soft-palate computer-generated ungainly sidekick irritant. We've found a lost Teletubby.
Now, to the larger scope. Consider Preview 2, wherein if one considers it at frame-by-frame speed, one is treated to a scene where a large number of Jar Jar-esque Gunga frog warriors attack the massive battletanks and combat droids with _slings and shields_. At the time, I suspected that this scene may well allow the Gungans, like their midgety Ewok forebears, the opportunity to engage in a movie-finale rousing David v. Goliath battle so illogical and absurd that would bring the bile right up into the back of your throat. Observe:
The April 26th Time magazine article has a still shot from the battle, with the caption: "The frog-faced warriors of Naboo, shields at ready, prepare for invasion by the daunting droids of the Trade Federation." Below, in the main text, lies the statement, "In the end, most of the scenes were digitally created (the FINAL GUNGAN BATTLE)..."
[convulsive emphasis added]
You heard it here first: We're in for another Ewok trip. The "aquatic" (see below) Gungan race, personified by the annoying and ill-considered Jar Jar, are the saviors of the movie. The Gungans will destroy the Trade Federation ground forces despite the fact that:
They are aquatic, yet have hooves.
They are aquatic, yet wear pants.
They are aquatic, yet demonstrate an aptitude for slings and shields. They are aquatic, yet do not lure the ROBOTS into the WATER
They are aquatic, yet have evolved massive floppy ears to, presumably, increase their water drag
Finally, as if my agony was not complete, we know that Jar Jar in his role as Comedic Sidekick (TM), has the highest probability of survival of any of the primary characters, even those that presumably appear in later films. Thus not only will we _not_ see any of his bumbling result in actual physical injury or death, but there is a great chance he will APPEAR IN THE NEXT FILM.
This is a nightmarish travesty, and it will kill the film. We will sit there in the theater and feel it die. In the end, nothing but Star Wars Episode I: The Pastel Menace. -
I'm sorry, once again I am straying from the subject, but I can't accept that a man like G.L. could be so ignorant. This ewok/Vietnam thing doesn't hold up even in the crudest sense. First of all, the N.V.A. and the V.C. weren't in the least bit simple or idyllic. They were they agressive, nasty fighters, who committed atrocity against their own people daily. I didn't see any ewok rape or skin alive any other of those hairy oompa-loompas. Secondly the technology gap is too wide between the ewoks and the empire for the analogy to hold. Your talking tech advanced beyond anything we have now against stone-age weapons.(That's part of the reason I despise the 'endor' scenes of ROTJ. Any MODERN army could of taken those little shits, much less one with laser guns and speeders, for gods sake) Third, we didn't lose the Vietnam war militarily. They didn't out-FIGHT us. We lost it through poor administration. Targets gone unbombed for political reasons, little civilian support back home, etc. So either whoever quoted George as saying that misheard, or G.L. was so insulated, so taken by the bullshit Hollywood misinformation about the Vietnam war, that he really believes it. Goddamn.
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Jeez, dude. Nice reading comprehension. I didn't say once that I loved Ewoks. Don't know where you pulled that one from. I also didn't compare them to other, more effective scenes (of course I felt the desperation of the Rebel retreat). And I didn't know the Ewok/Viet Nam parallels had been "slammed" here many times before. I was merely transcribing what LUCAS HIMSELF said, in part, inspired him to create that aspect of ROTJ. So don't take it up with me, take it up with him, and try to carefully understand what talkbackers are trying to get across.
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Jeez, dude. Nice reading comprehension. I didn't say once that I loved Ewoks. Don't know where you pulled that one from. I also didn't compare them to other, more effective scenes (of course I felt the desperation of the Rebel retreat). And I didn't know the Ewok/Viet Nam parallels had been "slammed" here many times before. I was merely transcribing what LUCAS HIMSELF said, in part, inspired him to create that aspect of ROTJ. So don't take it up with me, take it up with him, and try to carefully understand what talkbackers are trying to get across.
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Wow, what a day/night! I don't remember seeing such a heated debate here since... well Meyers/Quentin thing. Everybody seems to take Star Wars a tad too seriously - including Lucas. I love the movies, I think they are the some of the Best ever, and they have certainly made a big impact on my life and those of others. But as far as influencing me in religious matters: no. Great escapism, totally immersive experience and stimulation to achieve something better perhaps, but not really much religious/ philosophical pondering - thank God, I wouldn't have wanted that anyway. I think some of the blame to that pompous interview must be placced on the over-intellectualizing (this IS Star Wars, the Fictional Movie, after all) interviewer, who seems to push Lucas into discussion of things that (to me) are not all that central in Star Wars (e.g. religion). He seems though write his history anew: IMHO he just tried to make a very good, believable, fun fantasy movie with some more profound points (which manifest themselves better in ESB and ROTJ). The more profound things, like "why is man evil", "can evil man redeem himself" and "desire to have power and control others leads to evil things" are way more subtle than the fantastic/adventure parts. They make the movies better, though IMO. It is also obvious IMO that he changed his mind over plot points over the course of the movies (e.g. the sister thing), so let us not take it too seriously, it is not word of God. IMHO sister Leia (an easy way of Luke/Han/Leia triangle) and Ewoks defeating the imperials so easily (+ acting and dialogue in those scenes in ROTJ) were the low points, but it is okay to feel otherwise and you are not a loser if you do. Later.
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In the interview they say that there were always two sith lords because of the greed among the varioius Lords of the past: the master and the apprentice. Is that why Yoda says "always there are 2, a master and an apprentice" I guess that means that Darth Sidious is the master and Maul the apprentice. So is that why The Emperor (Sidious) tries to get Anakin to become a Sith, because Maul is killed? I'm thinking Kenobi probably kills Maul and that's why Vader must eventually kill Kenobi because it's the apprentice' revenge on his own master for killing the masters apprentice (Maul)
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In the interview they say that there were always two sith lords because of the greed among the varioius Lords of the past: the master and the apprentice. Is that why Yoda says "always there are 2, a master and an apprentice" I guess that means that Darth Sidious is the master and Maul the apprentice. So is that why The Emperor (Sidious) tries to get Anakin to become a Sith, because Maul is killed? I'm thinking Kenobi probably kills Maul and that's why Vader must eventually kill Kenobi because it's the apprentice' revenge on his own master for killing the masters apprentice (Maul)
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Having read gunny's post I can see this is getting way out of hand. Lucas didn't intend ROTJ to be a retelling of the Viet Nam conflict. Everyone knows the VC had machine guns, missiles, Soviet MIGs, and landmines -- I play golf with a guy who has a wooden leg courtesy of a VC landmine. The VC also had the home field and knew how to fight in the jungles...maybe the Endor Imperal Troops skipped that day of training. But seriously, Lucas was just continuing with his theme that the human spirit can overcome anything. This is fucking movie, not a documentary. Why did he have Vader shoot R2 in A New Hope? To rob Luke of his technological help. Why did Luke look at his mechanical hand at the end of Jedi, because it showed us he was on the threshold of crossing to the Dark Side. Again, THEMES people. Cameron's Aliens used the same theme. The bad ass, fully armed Marines succombed to weaponless aliens because they didn't expect it. And in response to the fact that a modern army would wipe out the Ewoks...look at Yugoslavia. They don't have cruise missiles or stealth fighters, yet after four weeks of bombing and there are more Yugoslav troops in Kosovo than before.
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Jeez Roadblock, you must have seen the movie already. Be calm. Wait 'till it's been seen before you decide it sucks. I also read that JarJar is something of an outcast from the Gungans because he is so clumsy and goofy. And just 'cause they live underwater doesn't mean that they breath it. They've got submarines and undersea cities (pressurized with air it would seem). So sure they could wear pants. If you think it sucks after May 19th then by all means say it. But don't be so negative man, it's bad for your karma. ****** Gee JMS, are you getting defensive? You can pitch the shit but you can't dodge it? Your excuses are getting more and more lame all the time. You started out trying to piss people off but now you're the one who's pissed. And you KNOW that you stepped in your own shit when you attempted to adopt an affectation of enviable machismo with that lap dance thing. And you're STILL trying to maintain that you never asked for a fight. I've told you a number of times before but I guess I'll rub your nose in it again. I don't give a wet slap if you like Star Wars or not. You're right, if you'd only said "I think Ep. 1 is gonna suck" I would have ignored you. But you started out specifically to insult people. So if you can't deal with someone returning the favor then just take you ball and go home.
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Listen, if there are any "true" Star Wars fans out there, and I don't think there are many on this talkback, listen to me now. All of the morons on here spouting off about how Lucas is a no-talent fake, are just doing so for the purpose of ruining the enjoyment that most of us are experiencing about Ep.1. I can be confident in saying that most of these so called "intelligent" people who think "Lucas is a hack" are the same ones who got beaten up at school for playing with their Luke Skywalker action figures during recess. Now that they have their safe little computers and internet, they can anonymously come in here and get some payback. They "beat up" on the people who actully enjoy the news Harry posts about Star Wars and who post that they can't wait for the film. Yet these people don't claim to be bullies. These people claim that their posts are intellectually sound and that they cleverly point out the "faults" in Lucas's movies. The problem is, 99% of their complaints are totally assinine to begin with. These people say that us fans are the ones so obsessed with Star Wars, yet they are the ones who go into a fit when they discover that George Lucas is using fake aliens. It's as if they expect Lucas to build a spaceship and go out into space and actully find all these aliens to put in his movie. Whether you use masks or CG, whether it's totally realistic or totally fake looking, they're NOT REAL anyway! The point of a movie is to use your imagination. And the people who say that the CG looks fake probably don't even have imaginations. Anyway, my whole point is to say to all the real fans, is to IGNORE THESE PEOPLE. There is no point to most of their arguments, and if they could they would complain about the way Lucas wipes his ass. Lets just enjoy the movie and all the excitment most everyone is feeling about it, and move on.
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Yet again the media get right into bed with Mr Lucas and believe every word that is said. The fact that every last bit of information about SW-E1 is seen as vital to the public (and geeks) and a selling point for Mr Media.
In the UK the hype might not be as high as in the US of A but for some, the hypes starting to stink like a long dead Godzilla.
Episode one is going to be a big money maker for Mr Lucas, FOX are getting the crumbs that fall from this media banquet. Most of the money will go to Lucas, and he will supply us with another two episodes which will be as good or better than episode 1.
But get a grip you guys. Stop listening to the drivel the media are giving you, its all managed and engineer'd for one purpose..GETTING YOUR MONEY.
So when the dust settles after Episode 1 is Mr Lucas still going to be talking crap to the journalists....No he'll be to busy counting money, money with lots and lots of zero's at the end.
Del (sorry, a bit synical me!) -
What does training have to do with anything?
This is how I interperate the force, so if you don't agree, well that is your choice, and I am not certain I can explain it right but here goes. - - - - - -- - - - -- - -
I look at the Force as something like a battery. Everybody gets one. A person who is close by, can in a sense, put a volt meter up to the person, and test their potential. If you have enough potentail in the force (aka enogh juice in your battery), you can be trained to harness that power (ie you can connect a lightbulb to it). Thus, the more trained you are, the brighter watt bulbs you can put in. Thus, proximity is everything. Thus, Luke couldn't be detected in a new hope, until he made his first true use of the force one the death star run. At that point, he had connected his first bulb. This allowed Vader to detect him on the trench run. By Return of the Jedi, his Bulb was so bright that the Emporer and Vader could detect him, espcially Vader, given that Luke had accepted the truth, and wasn't trying to hide. In this fashion, he had the potential, but never the ability until he began his training.
------As for vader not detecting that Luke was his son, or that leia was his daughter, he cant detect it if he doesn't know it exists. Rather than usuing the Force, it is intuative logic, that allows Vader to determine Luke is his son, and allow Luke to determine Leia is his sister. Start with Vadar on the Death star in A New Hope. He already knows Leia is important to the Rebellion, so he expects someone to come and rescue her (and he also knows that the death star plansare somewhere on Tatoonie. He gets a description of a ship that blasted out of tatonnie, and has a description of everyone on board, and knows that they could be headed for Alderaan). Obi-wan appears, and this makes sense to Vadar, that it should be him who attempts the rescue. He knows enough that Obi-wan doesnt have a ship, so the one guy must be who flew them to the death star, and dismisses Cheiwies importants. That begs the question of who is this farm boy, why is he along. From this, Vadar deduces that it is someone important. When Vadar is in his fighter later, I think it is a safe assumption that he uses the Force to nudge the pilots into his gun sights. He goes to try that on Luke, and it doesnt work (thus his line about luke being strong with the Force. He is not allowing himself to be pushed into Vadar's gun sights. Vadar ponders this a bit, after the destruction of the death star, and put two and two togetther. He didn't think he had kids, but maybe he did. The kid who blew up the station, he was the same kid who rescued Leia. Obviously, this kid has come out of nowhere, and done two very amazing things. He does some more thinking, and relizes that Luke is his son. As for his confontation with Luke at Bespin, the unspoken question to Luke is, what reason do I have to lie? This freaks luke out, he falls into the shaft, and is picked up by the Falcon. Afterwards, when the Falcon is running, he is in a semidelusional state, and that is why he comes to the cockpit, and that exchange takes place. Finally, at Dagobah, Luke hears Yodas last words, and starts to wonder, who it is. Obi-wan appears, and the "search your feelings" comes out agian. Luke thinks for a moment, and knows from the way Obi-wan and Yoda speak he must know who it is, and that she (since he knows a sister) must be close. That narrows the list to Leia, and only Leia.
As for the interactions, well consider. Suppose Luke hadn't been there, would the result have been the same? No, only Luke could avoid Vadar's tricks. But, because the light side was there, at the battle, it allowed the Alliance to win the battle. This is interaction. Like I said, it isn't the matter itself, but how we use it, and why we use it that determines our fate (just think World War 3. Through the interaction of not usuing nuclear weapons and not having another World War, we have avioded extinction.) Lukes heart was obviously good, noble and pure. But if he had said I won't go, then what good does it do? You have to take an active role.
Does this make sense - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - --
THis is to gunny. First, I suggested you read The WorldWar Series by Harry Turtledove. Good series, and it gives a starting point for the furballs to overcome the imperials. I suspect that somebody else Thought up that Vietnam crap, and Geoge has kept it on the table for discussion, but probably doesn't agree with it either. And we have no reason to assume the stormtroppers feel perfectly at home, in the woods. It is entirely possible that they don't understand everything in the Endor Forest. Consider, we train soldiers for forest combat, but do we train them so they are experts in every particular forrest? No, and the Ewoks I imagine are the closest thing you will find to experts on the Forest moon of Endor. They have always been there. And I also think it was sheer numbers.
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And for the umpteenth time, I am not seeing evidence, of the stupidity of Lucas. Went back, and dug out my ewoks tapes, and while I agree they don't offer much in the way of morale conflict, niether does the Rugrats, or power Rangers, because they are ment to tell a simple story of Good verses evil, and show that (at least it should be), Good will always triumph over evil. I dont remember How many of the Indian Jones thing Lucas was involved in, but I do think they were good films. As for the tv series, I think it would be best if he just stuck to film, because tv is totally different (and Ewoks was ment for kids, not adults. It was Garfield in space). I haven't seen Willow, and while I do agree Howard the Duck was pretty bad, everybody makes mistakes. So I ask again, WHERE IS YOUR PROOF
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - And Finally, to Roadblock, why do you not like Return of the Jedi? I still say that is the best of the three, espicailly considering the exchange between Luke, Vadar, and the Emporer. Hell, you could put that sequence in Howard the duck, and it would be watchable. I don't think the Ewoks are all that stupid. -
This is to everyone who thinks my above post is too long. Peregine, JMS, gunny, and Roadblock, please read it, I respond to each of you, and I think you will find it is well worth the read. Also, please note how nice and considerate I ame. I think everybody could do the same, espcially JMS and Foster. I really think you guys are getting out of hand. JMS, you did start it, with all of your crap about strippers, in the last Star wars post, And I notice your nice wonderful comment to Harry in your first post. Please try and be civil. and to foster, i agree JMS started it, but you aren't helping. So simple ignore his posts, respond civiliy, or don't come here. I think I speek for everyone, when I say PLAY NICE! (Cartoon networks Powerpuff girls)
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I truly enjoy all of the Star Wars films. Empire most of all, but all three are wondrously entertaining. My basic issue with the Ewoks, backed and repeated ad nauseum in the past by thousands of people in hundreds of forums, is that they are simply too contrived even for the contrived universe of Star Wars. They are utterly one-dimensional (cute furry creatures overcome tremendous odds, save real characters, packaged separately), and even though there is something inherently sci-fi about a midget in a creature costume, I cannot bring myself to appreciate them, or forgive their creators. Should you care that I think this way? No. Should you care that millions of rabid Star Wars fans, despite their adherence to the films, fast-forward through large sections of ROTJ to get back to the Emperor's Chamber duel scenes? Perhaps.
What concerns me about what I have seen, gleaned solely from a few magazines and the 2 previews, is that Lucas has utterly ignored the last few _decades_ of heated debate (obviously still unresolved) regarding the Ewoks. Once again we find ourselves faced with the likelihood of a repeat of the good underdogs overcoming the technologically superior evil villians in a poorly conceived and, this time, _completely_ computer generated battle to mark the triumphant end of the first film. I just can't wait for those 1s and 0s to light into one another. Even the possibility of an Ewok rehash has _already_ spawned massive debate, as evidenced by the fact you're reading this post.
In the mid-70s Lucas, as director of Star Wars: A New Hope, was offered a choice: $100,000 one-time directing bonus, or the merchandising rights to the then-unknown film series. He took the latter, and this is what really scares me as a Star Wars fan: All the talk of myths (Beowulf, Odysseus, Perceival; none of which contain a goofy slap-happy sidekick) religion, the D.C. exhibit audio tour guide, the art of film making, and a visionary goal start to ring false when I am faced with what appears to be generic Hollywood demographic marketing tactics.
I don't care about Jar Jar Binks as a character; I've suffered through enough good films with bad comedic outlet characters to have developed a nice callus; I care about what his presence and the presence of his fellows as integral to the plot indicates about Lucas' mindset. Even C3PO and R2D2, nominally the most 'human' of the earlier trilogy, took their lumps (former blown apart in Cloud City, latter zapped in front of rear bunker entrance in ROTJ). I suspect Jar Jar is considered by Lucas & Friends as too marketable to die, and will be protected quite literally deus ex machina. I'm not naive to believe that merchandising won't happen. I just wish he wasn't so focused upon it, and that it thus didn't come across as bordering on insult.
Even those who, like myself, can probably just endure Jar Jar, are not enthusiastic about him. Ask yourself: Will you be standing there in line awaiting your precious ticket, your whole body tingling with anticipation, and find yourself thinking, "Man, I just can't WAIT to get in there and see all of Jar Jar's kooky hijinks and pratfalls!"
So when, as I am starting to dread, all of Jar Jar's compatriots are flinging their electrical-discharge water-globes at the combat droids from behind their pink blaster-impervious person deflector shields that no one a generation later in the chronology uses or has heard of, Williams' score swelling triumphantly, ask yourself if mebbe that could have been done just a teensy bit better. -
Who gives a damn about myths,storylines,actors,religion and the PG rating.PHANTOM MENACE will live and die by the action scenes!.If they KICKASS,nothing else matters.STAR WARS was only a hit cos of the SFX and ACTION,take these two things out and you've got nothing left.PS NATALIE PORTMAN is great so even if it's bad,at least we can still watch her!!!!
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Yes, I agree they are fairly one dimension characters (except maybe wicket, but even he doesn't have that much to him in the movie), but then so are the stormtroopers. I don't hear anyone complaining that they were one dimension. They could only be one dimension. There wasn't time to develop them fully. Now, lets contrast 3 different characters (actualy groups but never mind that). We have Jar-Jar, the Ewoks, and C-3p0 and R2-D2. The Ewoks are very one dimensional, admitatly, but they are only in Return of the Jedi. And then only for about 1/2 of the movie. On the other hand, we have C-3P0 and R2-D2, which were throughout the entire seires. I tend to think that they were somewhat comedic relief, but we saw them get somewhat developed. Granted, they didn't undergo a life changing experience, but they had depth. And finally we have Jar-Jar. Granted, he looks kinda stupid at first. But consider, he is one of the main, he is in the entire movie (at least I think I can assume that) and he may be in the others. I think a better comparison would be to R2-D2,and C-3P0, since we really don't have a particular Ewok we followed throughout the films. And I think that Jar-Jar has a lot of potential. I think it is entirely possible Lucas thinks he should be killed off, but doesn't want to, but I have hope he won't
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REturn of Jedi - I still say it is the best of the three, and until Armeggedoen, I aint changing my mind (Not litterally, but I honestly think it is the best of the three)
Ewoks Films- Agian, like I said, it was for kids to enjoy. Is that so terrible, to make a film for kids to enjoy, and in the process make money? That is the way toy makers work, I don't hear people going psycho over that
Willow, Radioland Murders-haven't seen it
American Graffite - I have seen bits and pieces, enough to want to rent the film, haven't had chance
Howard the Duck- One Really big screwup
Star Wars Cartoons - He didn't want to do a series on the jedi, because it had to be set in the Empire during the Films, or a little before, or else had to be removed from the mainstream of the galaxy, like Ewoks. Thus, he can't do a jedi cartoon. Thus, Droids and Ewoks were it. I don't remember Indian Jones Cronicles.
Is it so wroung to tell a story to kids, and getting money from it. I have heard of a lot less scruppulous ventures, and people don't complain about those. People can be successful and keep there art intack. This is a hard concept to follow, I know, because I am constantly getting into arguments about this with my friends (don't ask)
So to conclude, what is wrong with making stuff for kids? If it shows them good morals, and gives them something to believe in, then what is wrong with it -
JMS, once more you manage to insult a large number of people with your inexplicaple obsession with George Lucas. I'll bet that if all the artists that work for Lucasfilm were to ever read your post they would feel hot shame at being exposed for the frauds that they are be your unrelenting searchlight of truth. I'm sure that you've made stacks of wonderful drawings of all sorts of imaginative and plausible aliens. Perhaps you'd like to share them with us? But you only lash out in righteous indignation against "Star Wars obsessed nuts" like me right? Because you can't live in a universe with people who don't share your lofty artistic ideals. Well let me give you a portrait of a "Star Wars obsessed nut". I'm sure many of the "Star Wars looneys" here will recognize bits of their own fandom in me. Maybe they'll feel the shame of their childish obsession along with me? Well here goes, my confession: I saw Star Wars at the drive in for the first time when I was seven. I loved it! My friends and I talked about it a lot. We played with the action figures. Then we grew up. Some of my friends still have some of their original action figures kept for the nostalgia of childhood memories. As for me, witness the depths of my obsession: I have the boxed VHS letterbox set of the trilogy. I've got the Letterbox set of the Special Editions. They are part of my library of dozens of film titles ranging from Runaway Train with John Voigt to A Bronx Tale. I have a few books about Star Wars but none of the numerous spinoff novels which mysteriously defy my obsession. I've got a video copy of the old Star Wars Christmas Special (now that's cheesey) that I've watched once. I've got a B'omarr Monk (had to check the spelling) that a friend got me for Christmas because it's only available through mail order and I have a Luke Skywalker Jedi Knight THEATER EDITION that is now quite collectible. I had two but gave one to a friend. Oh, and I'm actually looking forward to Phantom Menace. My Star Wars obsession is so great that it's a wonder I can maintain my interest in jazz guitar, aviation history, history in general, any form of science, motorsports (especially Formula One Grand Prix), and my own racing hobby with the Sports Car Club Of America. So you see, JMS was right all along and I just couldn't bear the truth. Thank you JMS, You are my savior. The shame is so great that I can't go on. Please be merciful JMS. Star Wars geeks, throw yourselves on the mercy of JMS. He will set you free.
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I haven't the time to properly respond to your last posting, but I do believe you make a number of very good points that I haven't really considered. Although I'm still convinced it is a stretch [a position I'm not ready to defend at this moment -- hopefully I'll be able to soon or else I'll have to concede that perhaps the force is well thought out], I'll have to think more about it tonight and post something tomorrow...
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First of all, no I am not a kid, in terms of I am in collage right now. I have grown up just as much as you, possibly more. But in a sense, I wish I were a kid. Star Wars came from a time when things were far more innocent (ok that is somewhat crap, but follow me here folks) Star Wars allows me to believe in the impossible, and that I can do the impossible. In the adualt, mature world, it is the BAD guys who always win. THat is the way our society works. When we are kids, it is cool for the good guys to wiin. But as adualts, the good guy must lose. At least that is the atitude we have taken.
And I honestly don't see how you can say Empire was more mature than Return of the Jedi. The whole Emporer, Luke, Vadar sequence, plus the sequence with Yoda and Obi-wan, are more mature than any part of the star wars flicks.
I think when you mean mature (this is not a personal attakc, but I have seen people like you) you mean dark. Dark films where the good guys lose, or barly survive, and the bad guys win.
I am sorry, but that seems to be what you are looking for in a mature film.
And anyway, why must it only be the generation who was born in the 70's who can see and enjoy the flick? I wasn't born until 1980, and I still love these films.
And anyway, I don't necassarily think that the follow on films will be all that bright. I hear that Episode 3 will be very dark, like Empire.
Lots of people are sellouts. PErsonally, I think this who idea of people selling out has been carried way to far out. We live in a world driven by money. That is the truth. As long as you are not out for just the money, and keep some dignity, I think you can still be considered an artist. And, this means, at least in my defination, that Lucas is not a sell out. -
Now see how nice it is when we remain civil, everyone? Ideas get exchanged, and talkbacks are actually enjoyable
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Old Timer? OLD TIMER??? Just let me get my teeth out of the jar next to the bed, take my laxitive, and slip on my Depends! Then I'll be ready to kick your butt!
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Thanks, Proph, I in fact own the Worldwar series, and love it greatly, but that is a completely different situation from the ewoks/Empire. In terms of technology, the Allies possess 1940s know-how, while the Lizards have, essentially, tech only slightly in advance of what we have now. That's a difference of perhaps 50 years. Plus, their supplies are radically limited. The Ewoks, on the other hand, have what amounts to Stone Age technology, with a couple of exceptions, while the Empire has futuristic weaponry beyond anything we know today. That is a difference in technology of millenial proportions. There is no way that Stone Age culture could realistically overwhelm troops armed with such advanced weaponry in a large-scale battle, no matter how well they utilize their forest. That strains the imagination. Like I told Fokker in an e-mail, I can make that stretch, and I enjoy the balance of ROTJ.
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Consider Gunny,
When the Roman Empire was first expanding, the Marched into Germany, and pretty much took it over. Why? Because the Roman leigon could easily decimat the other army, because it wasn't a one on one fight. However, the Roman army was decimated, later that year, because of there lack of knowledge of the woods. They were attacked, and the fight become one man against one man, not a highly trained legion agiants a group of individuals. Same senrio. I doubt that the Ewoks could when everytime, but the could do it once. Think of the sniper who picks off the company troops one at a time. In a fair fight, no way could he win. But on his terms, he can win. And the battle was on the Ewoks and the Rebels terms -
Well the one guy who was talking about how lame the GUNGANS are going to be,i think you are alitle too concerned about them.
Now i think thta JAR-JAR will be a problem but the other GUNGANS i think will be cool and wont at all be ewokian in there nature.I have been following this stuff for awile and the reason why JAR-JAR is an outcast from GUNGAN society is because he is a giant fucking moron,And his peolpe want nothing to do with him.
Now the GUNGANS themselves are seroius and they are also formidable warriors and are close to 7 feet tall,not a cutesy 4 foot ewok.the fact that they are amphibious is irrelivent they build great underwater cities and can construct vehicles using an organic technology and use energy balls as weapons.While some people are quick to compare this to the ewoks against the empire or the DAVID vs. GOLIATH well i want to know who said that the GUNGANS are even considered weak and primitive like teh EWOKS!!!No one,THEY ARE NOT!!!SO GET YOUR FUCKING FACTS STRAIGHT!!!
At least inform yourself before sounding off and looking like an idiot!And if you dont follow this stuff at least wait untill you have actually have seen the stupid FUCKIN MOVIE before promouncing it "GARBAGE" or "KIDDIE CRAP"!!! -
The Dark Lords of the Sith as an oral tradition that is only passed from one master to one apprentice. Now we know that Vader was recruiting Luke as his Sith apprentice as well as conspirator in overthrowing the Emperor. Maul training Annakin, Annakin becoming Vader. Episode 2 will be interesting.
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The Dark Lords of the Sith as an oral tradition that is only passed from one master to one apprentice. Now we know that Vader was recruiting Luke as his Sith apprentice as well as conspirator in overthrowing the Emperor. Maul training Annakin, Annakin becoming Vader. Episode 2 will be interesting.
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Response to Dolfanar: you asked what my
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Ha! Feature that. A talkbacker agreeing with two other talkbackers. I think Gunny has defended his point well, but I also agree with Proph's examples.
Here's an excerpt of a response I sent to Gunny in an email:
When I watch Jedi, of course I wonder how the Ewoks just happen to have rolling and swinging logs ready to smash AT-STs, but the story of Jedi is about redemption and destiny. That's the *heart* of the story. Besides, it's not like the entire Empire was wiped out by Ewoks, it was one arrogant battalion (or whatever) caught off guard, plus some Rebels with lasers and a Wookie in a stolen AT-ST!
The reason I used the Yugoslav comparison is that just this morning I heard on the news that after a month of bombing, 8,000 more troops occupy Kosovo. The
reason we don't send in troops is because many would die, and that would make Clinton look very bad. It's politics. And so we have bombed and bombed, yet Yugoslavs stand on bridges with targets. They believe in their sovereignity
(sp?), and I think that parallels the Ewoks a tad. They had no vested interest in the battle, yet 3P0's storytelling of the Empire's attocities inspired them to join a fight against an oppressive force. Of course, the Yugoslavs are being fed propoganda, but again these are themes of standing up. Tieneman Square, the guy in front of the tank. These images burn in our minds. And again, this is in no way in defense of the VC and their attrocities, nor do I think by suggesting a similar theme that Lucas, or I, side with Communists and diss the American veterans. I think history has shown examples of both scenarios. Again, I don't think it's that far of a stretch to think a bunch of primitive beings who know their territory could defeat unsuspecting troops (especially ones all garbed in white in a forest...they may be advanced but not very smart). And come to think of it, are the Ewoks really that cute? -
MaceJedi could not have put it any better. I've heard so many people who are so 'worried' that the new movie isn't going to be good (i.e. I'm so use to the old actors, blah blah..) We can all stand around and rip the new movie to shreds if we wanted to. Quite frankly, I think the new movie will easily be one of the three most entertaining films of the 1990's. Mace made a point - who in the world could top Star Wars. Could you, all of you 'geeks' top it? I want to hear from all of you about this! I want to hear from all and every single one of you nitpickers who cannot stand the mere though of human imperfection, or Lucasimperfection. I've waited 16 years, and I am damned proud to say that I am excited beyond belief. I haven't been as excited about a new movie since I was 10 and saw Return of the Jedi. I think that says a lot.
Lucas's myths involved in Star Wars can be analyzed to death. We all know that they are there, I mean, anyone with a modicum of depth inside themselves could have identified what Lucas was talking about in the Time interview. Perhaps you've done all of the MTV crowd with their limited attention spans a favor by spoon feeding it to them. By golly, I think that humanity may survive after all... -
and was riding the bus home from work today. (My favorite picture is of Yoda and Obi-Wan, Obi bowing his head to his master.) Several Star Wars fans were on today - there's an International Festival going on downtown (I live in Houston, TX) and a few kids who just came from there were getting on. I had my Star Wars Insider, my Premiere(Liam on the cover, now if only I can find the Ewan cover), my TIME, and the Entertainment Weekly. I keep all four with me, pretty much at all times. Anyway, these kids looked to be about 16-18 (I'm 29) and they say me reading them and started asking all sorts of questions about Star Wars - they were fans, but it appeared that they didn't get online all that much - and what my hopes were for the new movie, and so forth. We chatted all the way home - dipping into a little Kurosawa conversation, a little about cinema in general, but always getting back to Star Wars. As I left they handed the various mags I had shown them back to me, and we wished each other well and we wished each other luck on 5/19 getting in line. I came home, kissed my wife and baby girl, and popped in ROTJ. I'm still watching it. The Luke/Vader scenes even now still affect me - I lost my father to cancer just at a time when I was getting to know him a lot better, and I always could identify with Luke losing his father. And in the end, he redeemed him, and I try to validate my father's memory every day through my family and married life. That's what Star Wars does for me. And the Star Wars haters CAN NEVER TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME. Ever. So, spout your bullshit rhetoric. Call Lucas a greedy son-of-a-bitch if you want. He may very well be. But the man has nothing to prove to me. And I will be forever in his debt, for showing me a world, where a son's love can give a father immortality. And I've tried to live in that world, everyday. Maybe some of you should too.
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Heroism - Knowing that he will probably die, Corporal Biggs stays at his gun station, hoping that the 10 seconds he buys with his outdated laser cannon, MAY allow a couple extra transports to take off. He glaces around and sees that his whole unit has been taken out by AT-AT fire. Finally the retreat order is given. After firing one parting impotent shot, Corporal Biggs turns and climbs out of the trench. He begins running but he realises that an AT-AT has him in it's sights...
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Hijinks - Ewok BigBig who fights because his gold metal God told him that these REY-BULLS are "good", sees a white metal guy. He swings his bola and accidently bangs his head. Oh-well, I guess I will try to do it better next time... -
Okay, if the Ewoks are nothing but hijinks, why do I still feel sorry and sad during th seen when the to Ewoks are shot at by the ATST, and you realize one isn't getting up!
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What gets alot of us around here
is that you haven't even seen
the film. Yet you say it sucks.
Why? You shouldn't say a movie sucks if haven't even seen it.
Can you tell me what your point
is? What are you trying to do?
You're not gonna change any of
our minds. Will always love
Star Wars. Give it up JMS.
If you wanna play this game
after we've all seen the movie.
Then cool. Will debate the movie,
but this obvious fake trip your
on that you hate Star Wars.
Is getting old. You must not
have much of a life. You write
so much crap and you go on and on.
You know more about Star Wars then
some of us do. Give it a rest.
You're coming off stupid. -
Here here, I think that it's great that someone would sit outside on a sidewalk for a month for charity. If they WERE sitting out there just to be first in line I'd really wonder about them but now I have respect for them. Maybe I'll swing by with a bucket of soapy water and a hose and offer to clean them up a bit? Now who I'm really worried about is the people who are going to show up at the que in costumes. (shudder) Just a couple of years ago my friends and I saw some Trekkers on the news (maybe it was that lady on the OJ jury list) and said to one another "Aren't you glad Star Wars fans aren't like that?". (Sorry Trekkers, no offense) Now I'm not so sure.
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I do see what your saying. But Isn't most religious doctrin so ambiguous as to invite an almost infinite variety of interpretations. Lucas Doesn't literally think that all religions are true. After all they are mostly contradictory in their specific claims. His point, I think, is that all religions represent a fundamental human need to seek a truth that is greater than ourselves. And he didn't say he wanted to make kids think about god but rather to think about whether or not there is a god, to think about "THE BIG PICTURE". *** And I feel that I must point out that Buddhists don't even nessesarily believe in a supreme being. And as an atheist/evolutionist I don't think that I would ever describe the universe as an "accident". I'm awe inspired that we're what happens to hydrogen atoms given enough billions of years. If that's "god" then call it what you will. Above all, as stimulating as this conversation is I think we need to keep in mind that Star Wars is fundamentally entertainment.
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Funny, at any public screening of RotJ I have ever been to or heard of, the Ewok who "doesn't get up" (It is never clear whether he is dead), is the second most loudly cheered part of the film (other than Vader turning on Palpatine ofcourse). Do you know what my biggest problem with the Ewoks is though? Their facile victory over the Empire renders worthless the sacrifices made in the first two films... Captain Antilles and his Crew, Luke's aunt and Uncle, Obi-wan, Biggs and the rest of Gold and Red Squad, General Riekien and the Troops at Echo Base, Dak and many of the Pilots in Rogue Squad... the list goes on and on... All of THEIR sacrifices are rendered MEANINGLESS, because what *THEY* could NOT accomplish, a bunch of Care bears with spears could, WITH VIRTUALLY *NO* CASUALTIES!! The *Freedom* that is achieved in RotJ is worthless, because hardly *any* price was paid for it. ANH and ESB *made* us *feel* (there's that word again) the struggle, the desperation that the Rebels were suffering through, while RotJ played WAR, the most HORRIFIC thing imaginable for LAUGHS!??! It should be no surprised, in the opening act Lucas uses TORTURE for laughs (undermining the two disturbing torture scenes from the previous movies) so why not war? Like I said, by 1983 George Lucas had surronded himself by sycophantic Yes-men which have been feeding his dilusions of Grandeur ever since...
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JMS,
The whole point of making a movie is to sell it. Anbody that makes a movie and says, "I couldn't care less who sees it." is lying! Why release it then? That's like that dipshit Eddie Vedder complaining his horrid music is for himself and he doesn't care about the fans - great, then stay at home and play in your garage. Same thing with movies. To dislike Lucas for shilling is silly, because then you must dislike ALL directors, actors, writers, producers, grips, caterers, etc. To accuse him of being unoriginal is silly too, as so many people have pointed out, THERE'S NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN. How do you think movies are pitched? You always sit down with some studio buttmunch and tell him, "It's a cross between 'Porky's' and 'Full Metal Jacket' with a little 'Horse Whisperer' thrown in." Nobody in hollyweird understand complex stories or deep characterizations. All they want is a simple-to-grasp, archetype-filled, easily-summed-up blockbuster. Don't approach them with anything that doesn't translate to sure $$$ for the studio. If they can merchandise the idea up the whazoo and get Burger King, Wal-Mart and Playboy involved, all the better. Movies aren't art - they're a product like your Compaq, your G.I. Joe with kung-fu grip and your '83 Escort. Anyone who claims to be an artist and a filmmaker is either broke or delusional, because the movie industry is all about whoring a product. The question is, does Lucas give us a $10 Tijauna whore or a $1,000 a night call girl. I say that remains to be seen. For little kids (as I was when the originals came out), Star Wars, Empire and Jedi were like a weekend with ten copies of Kim Basinger doing everything under the sun. today? Watching them is like an old girlfriend, still good but no aging gracefully. The next flick? I'm betting it'll be fun but filled with crappy CGI - as is the case with adventure/action movies today. -
Sithlord, what's the point of bagging on people for not reading a glossy, paper version of "Hard Copy"? I'd those of us not buying that rag and its brethren, NEWSEEK and US NEWS, are the smart ones. We know news-lite when we see it. How many serious publications even bother to interview a movie director and talk with him about feelings and spirituality? None. Maybe if they wrote about the process of making movies blockbusters based on hype, merchanidising, simple stories and mass appeal I might be interested, but a story on the role of religion in a damn movie? It's a movie! It's newsworthyness reaches so far as to its take at the box off and how much revenue it will generate for a publicly held company. TIME? It's not even good for wiping one's ass.
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JMS give it a rest will ya? At least offer something NEW to say. You come off like a petulent child. The point of a discussion is to offer arguments, and hope to get interesting arguments back. I rarely comment on the immaturity of Fanboys anymore, because well they're fanboys, theyve sold their intelectual soul to George Lucas, for the "privilige" of seing his newest "religious experience" (Copyright 1999, Lucasfilm (Ltd). If you truly wish to be critical, then offer arguments, and leave the petulence to the "true" fanboys.
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...that you want to cite JAMES CAMERON as your example of a benevolant artist? If EVER there was a self-important schill, pompous ass, and general jerk, it *HAS* to be Jame$ Cameron. I am PERSONALLY embarassed that he happens to come from my country, and wish that he had inherited a LITTLE old fashioned Canadian humility... I am surprised that you didn't cite your name sake Joe Michael Strazynsky, who REFUSED to turn his story into "Baywatch meets Pro-wrestling- in space" despite the opportunity for ca$h and a major commitment from TNT. THAT is a decision I can *respect* (The fact that he went along for season 5 and 2 *REALLY* bad telefilms, on the other hand was really *bad* judgement, but I digress...)...
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What? James Cameron had NOTHING to lose if Titanic had flopped. He has millions upon millions and he didn't risk a single damn penny on the movie. Oh, he gave back his directing money, but he didn't surrender his screenwriting million dollar paycheck did he? Nope. That movie was written for 13 year old girls. Let's see, we'll toss an effeminate pre-pubescent non-actor in the lead role and then toss in a chunky girl (whom most teenager girls can identify with) and then we'll have the girl's sexuality and love of life revealed through an understanding, sweet boy from the wrong side of the tracks. He'll guide her into womanhood and give her the strength to carry on and be her own person, valiantly dying to save her in the process. Wow, that's not the most cliched, hackneyed storyline around. That's not every teen girl's dream come true. A non-sexual, almost androgynous girl/boy understanding them, holding them and leading them safely into womanhood. Please. You mock Star Wars and then cite a schill just as big as Lucas. Cameron authorized T2 toys! Look at the damn Universal Studios acttraction for T2 that just opened! Don't give me any BS about Cameron being an artist and standing behind a work he had nothing to lose if it flopped. He's had plenty of flops before and he always gets work again. You have to strike out many times in a ROW in Hollywood to find yourself without work. Kevin Costner ring any bells? The guy's made ONE good movie and like four successful ones, yet bomb after bomb comes out and he keeps ticking like a damn Energizer Bunny. With Cameron's past successes (Aliens, T2 the best examples) he could have made two or three flops before studios would close the doors on him for good. you've completely undermined your argument about disliking Lucas for being a whore. Just admit you dislike him for your own nebulous, illogical reasons. I can't stand a bunch of actors and directors for no other reason than there is something in me that feels ill when I see the names Coppola, Scorsese, Cameron, Keanu, Diaz, Pfeifer, etc. It's illogical but I don't like them and rarely like any of their work. Don't pull some holier-than-thou attitude that you're so logical if you don't have a legitimate reason to dislike something. you're basing your dislike on emotion and there's nothing wrong with that.
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First to Dolfnar. That arguement holds as much water as, as as.... Well, I can't think of the phrase, but that is a load of bullshit (sorry for the language, but that what I think of it). Saying that is like saying That when Washington won the battle of Yorktown, It degreaded all of the previous battles to nothings. I am sorry but that is complete crap.------Look, wars are fought two ways, wars of attrition and mobile wars (if you already know this, sorry but this is important). The war in Star Wars is mostly a war of Attrition, and in attrition warfare, You have battle after battle, until one side gets the upper hand, and then there is one final battle, where everything everyone has is thrown into it. To a certain degree, winning a war of attrition requires a certain amount of luck. It was luck that allowed the Allies to attack Normandy on the day they did. If they had waited another month, things could have really gotten hairy. Thats not to say it doesn't require skill, becuase it does (otherwise, Hitler would have been able to move his tanks into position and pound the allies). But the final battle, luck has as much to do with who is in the battle and who isn't, and nothing can be taken from prior achievements. I have rambled and gotten of topic, but the point is, it was just dumb luck that it was on Endor. Each of the piror achievements is not degraded, but each achievement is uplifted, because all of the fighting finally paid off. Look, everybody knows D-Day came after the battle for britain, or the battles in Africa, but does this degreade it> No, it allowed us to continue the fight until we had all of our pieces in place to take Hitler out. In just the same way, the flight of Captian Antilles, the battle at YAvin and Hoth, and every other battle up untill Endor, allowed the Alliance to survive and continue the fight, and by being successful at Endor, it uplifts them since they have achieved what they wanted. I am not really convinced that it was as bloodless for the Ewoks as we think. The night after the battle, you are just happy to be alive, and thrilled that your side one (ie the celebration). It is the next day that you bury your fellow solders. And morun there loses. In just the same way, it was dumb luck that caused the Revolutionary War in America to end at Yorktown. Washington was nearly able to take New York, a year earlier and end the war (or rather provide the deciding victory). However, because of a stupid little thing that pissed of the French, he didn't get the Naval suppport he needed, and thus was unsuccessful. Stupid dumb thing have just as much impact on war as does the men and women fighting (I am sorry if this is mean, but there is turth)- - - - - - - -- --- -- - -- JMS, Please give me a definition of a mature film. I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me Lucas is a sellout, and I haven't seen any evidence proving Return of the Jedi is the Worst. ------- - - - -- - - - - - - Somebody eariler mention that the only important thing is the SFX and the space shoot up seens. It is these reason I think the First is the weakest. Don't get me wrong, I like A New Hope, but there sure aren't any moral conflicts or character growths. It is the plot that is important. Want FX, go watch ID4. I liked ID$, but I will take Star Wars plot over ID4 effects any day
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Apr 21, 1999 12:03:58 AM CDT
JMS, are you REALLY calling SW fans losers, when YOU stick to Ta
by frank rizzo
JMS, you keep saying how pathetic SW fans are for liking a kid's movie. If it is lame to be an adult and like SW, then tell us please, just how lame is it to check into AICN--5 to 10 times a day--to criticize those adults who like SW? Sounds like the kettle is calling the pot black! "You SW fans are losers who have no social lives--and I am going to check back every 30 minutes to remind you of that, in between episodes of quality entertainment like "Transformers" reruns!"
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Well JMS, yet again you make an assumtion that is completely false. First of all you assumed that anyone who likes Star Wars and is in any way looking forward to the next movie is an obsessed nut-case who thinks of nothing but Star Wars and wears Ewok pajamas under his clothes. Of course that was more of a plea for attention than anything else wasn't it? Well you've gotten the attention that you wanted... Everyone thinks you're an idiot. You want to know what's really sad? It's that you're not clever enough to keep track of your own contradictions yet your so enormously arrogant as to think that your OPPINION is some kind of universal law. This causes you to utter every thought that your brain shits as though it were fact. For example: Lucas isn't proud of being cheap, he's happy that great film-making is becoming more affordable. And He certainly didn't underpay his employees. After Star Wars came out and became successful beyond all expectations he gave everyone involved in the film big bonuses for their contributions. At the rate you're going you'll soon claim that Lucas was a guard at Buchenwald. Oh, and that all those who put their faith in Cameron shall not perish but shall have everlasting life. And doesn't your description of Cameron as a film-maker who takes risks also hold for Lucas? Who took the bigger risk, Cameron with Titanic or Lucas with Star Wars? Maybe you should just type up one post and submit it over and over again. You'd still be making the same point.
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As per many of the folks on here, I've been a star wars fan since I was a lil kiddie. I had the toys, the games, the halloween costumes... I (and my parents) bought into it all. We've still got the laserdiscs, the DVDs, the special editions... hell, I even officially named a Star Wars character. My moderately generic credentials thus noted, let me point out a few things that concerned me from the very start about episodes 1-3, things I was worried about back when the productions themselves were merely rumored.
1) Re-ewokage. The ewoks were, at best, a questionable addition to what otherwise was a pretty great closing film to that trio. Some people don't mind 'em, a very few enjoy them. Most find them vaguely comical, in manners unintended by the directors. And some, of course, despise them. My primary concern in this area is that Lucas/consultants would decide that the Ewoks actually had something to do with the great performance of ROTJ and work in a similar ploy in Episode 1. Now, you're right. I haven't seen Ep 1. But what I've seen from the previews _alone_ makes me very worried on this score. If it happens again, it will be dull, uninspired, and cartoonish. I won't even be able to hate it/them, because that would require emotional investment. I would simply be bored, something I have _never_ been before with Star Wars.
2) Anakin's dark side conversion. We know this happens. My fear, eclipsing that of even the Ewokage, is that Anakin will not decide to move to the dark side. He will be forced into it by external forces, someone pickin' on someone he loves or somesuch. What's wrong with this? Well, unless he makes the decision to become evil himself, he is completely negated as a villian. All of his subsequent actions, and the actions of people like Luke to bring him back, will be devoid of moral meaning if he is simply a puppet dancing on someone else's line. This is important, and will be very crucial to the new episodes.
3) Chronology. I'm intrigued to see how Lucas will use the new technological toys he has, as they affect the timeline in the films. I'm already a little worried as I've seen weapons, robots, vehicles, and spaceships that handle better, fly faster, etc. than technology a generation and more later. Where'd they all go? An entire universe either lost all its equipment, or completely upgraded it?
Now, as a self-proclaimed Star Wars Fan (R), how dare I even suggest that there might be holes in the upcoming films, since I haven't even seen them? Because I care enough to look for them. I'm not going to sit here rocking back and forth and muttering "It will be great. It will be perfect." When someone makes fun of Star Wars, I often have an irrational desire to whup 'em. And it _is_ irrational, because there _are_ logical inconsistencies. The trick is to care enough to address them. If Episode 1 has flaws, Lucas NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT THEM. Word will get around. AICN itself is _based_ on the fact that the internet is a tremendously powerful device for word-of-'mouth' information transmission. I suggest we use it. -
LOOK YOU MOTHERFUCKER, compare Endor to WW2!?!? You mast have your ass so far up George Lucases ass that you can taste what he had for Lunch. MILLIONS died in world war2. Canadians were used as Guinney pigs for the allies to test the German strength on French shores. And my GrandMother died working for British intelligence in Greece. Not to mention the 8 million jews, gypsies and other minorities butcered by the Nazis. And the poor Russians, who went to War like few others EVER have to defeat the Nazis. THOUSANDS of casualties in EVERY battle. There was not ONE unit that didn't take casualties in ANY army. WW2 came at a *Terrible* price, and to compare it to a bunch of prat falls and slapstick offends me to no end...
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Harry, you're entitled to your opinion, but then, given that you've established Talk Back, you're also entitled to mine. George Lucas has created some VERY entertaining films, especially the Star Wars series, but he's got all the philosophical/theological depth of a Bazooka Joe comic. The Force as a religion? Come on. It's everything a religion is not - verifiable, repeatable, utterly provable, and, oh yes, dependent upon innate abilities. Lucas' assertion that 'everybody believes' is horseshit. Lots of people have freed themselves of superstition and myth.
Lucas proved one thing in Moyers' interview - that he has bought into his own press releases. . -
Being that Star Wars is my favorite movie I find The Phantom Menace a hard burden to bear. When I look at the trailers I find the newest edition to be suffering from an extreme case of gearheading. You've all experienced this in some form or another. It's in the guy who shows up to the mountain with new gear by North Face, the best Vasque boots, two hiking poles, super-carb drinks, and a sun shower somehow thinks that makes his experience better. It's in the dude who pimps his car out with the booming-est system, the phattest wheels on Yokohama tires, and a glowing license plate holder but still can't find a girl to ride in his passenger seat. It appears Lucas tried just a little bit too hard to cater to the audience. To dazzle them wih alien worlds and spectacles. The eight costume changes by the queen, the double bladed light sabre, the villian straight out of a saturday morning cartoon, the goofy alien sidekick. Where the original trilogy was subdued in both tone and color everything in this film jumps out at you, screaming "Look at me!" What happened to a little subtlety, George? In the original trilogy no one was distracted by clothing, Vader was a bad ass because of the fear he brought with him not how he looked (sure, he was black and armored but he didn't snarl or have yellow teeth), Chewbacca was stoic, and the whole set design was of a more rustic nature. Maybe I'm just too old (25) to be struck with awe any more when laser blasts are fired, spaceships wizz by, or someone says "May the Force by with you." Or it could be that George has once again read the BO treads...he sees that style long ago surpassed substance in the American audience (see The Matrix). I truely hope I'm wrong and if I am, i'll jump for joy. All I can say right now is:
"George, this story's too good for Computer Generated Effects, try your models and stop-motion photography!" -
You're right! Things have really gone downhill since we improved on the likes of Ed Wood's octopus. I was really pissed about talkies. and don't even get me started on color.
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How can anybody think that TPM is going to be any good at all. Does everyone discount Lucas's recent track record? Didn't anyone see the cheesy shit he pulled in the re-releases? What's going on? The trailer looks like shit!!! He might as well shoot the next flicks on video....VHS. I know we all hope to god that it could maybe somehow be a miracle and be even mildly decent, but that seems highly unlikely. The man who made the original Star Wars is dead. This looks like a Star Wars film in NAME only. Do you people simply see lightsabers and hear the word Jedi and think it's the same thing, you are in for a big shock. You should be boycotting Him for the shit he did to the flick that started this whole fuckin discussion. GREEDO SHOOTS FIRST...... and you think TPM is going to have even one solitary testicle. Hey, I hope it makes you "everything that has the words 'star wars' on it is great" people happy, but I remember the original and Empire. They were about a world that seemed real, that had adventure as well as pain and longing. Lukes parents were actually shown on fire.... Han shot some alien who was giving him shit.... and you people are happy with this load of cartoon crap. Ewoks and floppy eared obviously digital comic aliens.
LUCAS seems to think that if people aren't rolling in the aisles or whooping it up to special effects every 5 seconds than the people are bored... instead of realizing that maybe their enraptured and actually feel that this is a real world for the time they are watching. Every burping hole or stumbling robot erodes that reality and what were left with is Bantha shit; the world is lost for the sake of momentary fluff. You guys get so mad at JMS for questioning your assumptions that TPM is going to be great; but he seems to me to be the only sane one of the lot who is actually taking a hard look at the evidence and extrapolating the obvious conclusion: TPM will offend real Star Wars fans - therefore as a sequel (prequel whatever) it sucks. Maybe as a stand alone movie it would be tolerable for grade schoolers., who knows. And JMS is obviously is a fan of the original or he wouldn't be spending so much time on the site. MAY THE FORCE ALLOW YOU TO SEE HOW YOUR STANDARDS HAVE FALLEN.
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don't come with that lame arguement that better technology means a better movie. what makes a film is it's story, it's characters, and it's authenticity (does it seem real to you). The grade of special effects is nominal. I for one would rather have little to no CGI in TPM...
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Well since you're going to use cars as an analogy for The Phantom Menace... YOU see the trailers as a '96 Corolla that some kid pimped out with his crystal meth money. Well I see it as an 800hp, 17,000rpm, 1300lb., 220mph, O-120 in 4 sec. McLaren MP4/14 Formula One car. You think that Darth Maul looks silly. Well I (and many others) think that he looks cool. (You can't tell me that Darth Vader didn't look evil and menacing like Maul does now.)You think that Jar Jar looks bad. I think that if R2 and 3PO hadn't been in the original trilogy you might be complaining about them too. You think that the CGI stuff is bad. I think it's great. If you want to see an unconvincing effect, look at the rancor, done with those old effects methods. (Not that those old effects weren't great in their own time, but the Ford Tri Motor was a great airliner in its day too.) I'm sorry that you can't share in the enthusiasm that many of us feel at this time. I know that you're not too old to enjoy it (I'm 30). Perhaps it's just that this new film is just that, new. You're more than entitled to share your oppinions here. I'm not going to insult you because We disagree. You'd have to start calling people "retards" first. But seriously, You have to understand that many of us simply don't see the weaknesses that you do.
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First, please tell me WHY you think TPM looks like crap?
First, all we have seen is maybe 5-6 minutes worth of footage, and (probably) mostly the flashy stuff. Now, maybe you have read the script, and know more than I do, because I prefer not to know to much about the movie before I see it.
Second, I am still waiting for proof the Return of the Jedi Sucks? I thought Jedi was the best!
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