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Hey, Did You Know There’s A New HARRY POTTER Book Out Now?!

Hey, everyone. ”Moriarty” here. Okay... this is really an excuse for you guys to have a talkback to discuss, dissect, and otherwise absorb this week’s big book release. You should discuss it all right here. Quint and I talked about it earlier today on IM: [Beware of spoilers! Read only if you've finished the book!!!]

MoriartyAICN (3:46:19 PM): You're the bigger POTTER fan of the two of us. MoriartyAICN (3:46:29 PM): So this was a big deal for you. AICN Quint (3:46:48 PM): Totally. Especially coming off of Half-Blood Prince, which I adored AICN Quint (3:47:05 PM): I think Rowling knocked it out of the park AICN Quint (3:47:21 PM): I have some pacing issues, but even those are minor AICN Quint (3:47:38 PM): What about you? MoriartyAICN (3:48:01 PM): I think that, having read the entire series now, it's obvious she had a plan, and I think the series is pretty great. MoriartyAICN (3:48:12 PM): It's a heck of a finish. MoriartyAICN (3:48:23 PM): This book kind of shatters the formula POTTER fans are used to. MoriartyAICN (3:48:25 PM): And I like that. AICN Quint (3:48:32 PM): Dude, I wanted that with Order of the Phoenix AICN Quint (3:48:39 PM): one of the reasons I was let down with that book MoriartyAICN (3:48:57 PM): I like that she used that formula to get you used to a rhythm of storytelling, and then with the last two books, where it really mattered, she sort of threw that formula out. MoriartyAICN (3:49:01 PM): Less so with HBP. AICN Quint (3:49:04 PM): because it set up this big wizard war in Goblet of Fire and then in Order it was the same old, same old MoriartyAICN (3:49:09 PM): But even that one goes some pretty crazy places. AICN Quint (3:49:42 PM): I can look back on it now and realize she was really setting up the beginning of the end for the Ministry MoriartyAICN (3:49:56 PM): I like that she's painted a realistic portrait over the seven books of what life in wartime is like. The way rumors grow, the way the resistance takes hold... MoriartyAICN (3:50:10 PM): It's such a particularly English series. AICN Quint (3:50:12 PM): but at the time I was disappointed, thinking we were about to get a series of war books with magic elements instead of students playing with magic AICN Quint (3:50:21 PM): definitely MoriartyAICN (3:50:30 PM): I still shudder at the idea that Spielberg ever wanted to Americanize the films. Thank god that didn't happen. AICN Quint (3:50:37 PM): No shit AICN Quint (3:50:42 PM): I also have to say AICN Quint (3:51:13 PM): Seeing Voldemort in the thick of it for the entire book... made me realize how long it's been since we've had a great villain that was so powerful he could just step onto the battlefield and take part AICN Quint (3:51:30 PM): I think we're getting used to the "evil lurking in the shadows" or the evil politician thing MoriartyAICN (3:51:46 PM): Well, that's important. He's been gathering his strength, and if he didn't finally use it, that would have all been a waste of pages. AICN Quint (3:51:48 PM): He really stepped up to being a Darth Vader. He was on the ground and could fuck you up MoriartyAICN (3:51:57 PM): He's a genuinely horrific figure in this book. MoriartyAICN (3:52:12 PM): I am surprised by just how much death Rowling lays on her fans in this one. MoriartyAICN (3:52:30 PM): But thankfully, she's given her fans time to grown into the idea that this might happen. AICN Quint (3:52:32 PM): it's pretty crazy. Considering that a lot of it happens in other parts of the story MoriartyAICN (3:52:33 PM): And it counts. MoriartyAICN (3:52:45 PM): Every death is important, as it should be. MoriartyAICN (3:52:56 PM): Oddly, I was most upset by Lupin and Tonks. AICN Quint (3:52:55 PM): so she strategically placed them to hit Harry at just the right time AICN Quint (3:52:58 PM): or wrong time AICN Quint (3:53:00 PM): as it were MoriartyAICN (3:53:04 PM): The idea of them leaving behind a newborn. MoriartyAICN (3:53:08 PM): That really upset me. AICN Quint (3:53:18 PM): yeah. It made a lot of sense and honestly... AICN Quint (3:53:44 PM): when Lupin made Harry godfather to Teddy... that's when I knew he'd live AICN Quint (3:54:04 PM): Harry would, that is AICN Quint (3:54:28 PM): because he'd get a chance to be what he wanted Sirius to be for him AICN Quint (3:55:36 PM): I'd also note that I tried to avoid as many spoilers as I could before reading MoriartyAICN (3:55:51 PM): I knew nothing going into this one. AICN Quint (3:55:50 PM): but some douchebags out there were bound and determined to ruin it for everybody MoriartyAICN (3:56:07 PM): Yeah, I have to say... MoriartyAICN (3:56:14 PM): I am starting to hate a percentage of fandom. MoriartyAICN (3:56:25 PM): Or I should say "fandom," since I don't htink they're really fans of anything. MoriartyAICN (3:56:54 PM): I think there is a concentrated core of total fucking scumbag dickless assholes who seem to see other people enjoying something, and all they can think to do is try to ruin it for them. MoriartyAICN (3:56:57 PM): It's mystifying. AICN Quint (3:57:02 PM): there have been talkbacks for weeks in completely unrelated talkbacks leaving subject lines like, "Congratulations on the Wedding, Harry!" and then the body is just a checklist of who dies on what page AICN Quint (3:57:14 PM): yeah, that's what I'm talking about MoriartyAICN (3:57:18 PM): Oh, man, I've missed all of that. AICN Quint (3:57:28 PM): I avoided them MoriartyAICN (3:57:34 PM): But I know there were videos again of people spoiling outside POTTER gatherings. MoriartyAICN (3:57:51 PM): And honestly, those people are the worst kind of thugs. Just shit. They're beneath contempt. AICN Quint (3:57:56 PM): but in avoiding I also saw the very begging... so I knew a couple deaths going in, which sucked MoriartyAICN (3:57:59 PM): It's one thing to ruin an adult's enjoyment of something. MoriartyAICN (3:58:06 PM): But to intentionally ruin it for a child? MoriartyAICN (3:58:24 PM): You've got to be a sociopath, and I don't use the word lightly. You should be thinned from the herd if that's the way you amuse yourself. MoriartyAICN (3:59:04 PM): I think it's pretty great that kids have been taken on this ride over the course of seven books. AICN Quint (3:59:12 PM): It's unique MoriartyAICN (3:59:20 PM): I think the good that Rowling has done for literacy in general is immeasureable. AICN Quint (3:59:22 PM): I love that this series has been able to grow up with its readers AICN Quint (3:59:29 PM): no one can read this 7th book and call it a kids book MoriartyAICN (3:59:32 PM): Even when I was a kid, I can't think of any one series that mobilized this many people to read. MoriartyAICN (3:59:45 PM): No, it's certainly not. AICN Quint (3:59:44 PM): There's torture, brutal deaths, some heavy ideas about choice and self-sacrifice MoriartyAICN (3:59:54 PM): I love Mrs. Weasley's ALIENS moment. MoriartyAICN (4:00:12 PM): And Ron basically says "fucking" at one point. MoriartyAICN (4:00:28 PM): The characters have grown up quite a bit. In subtle and not-so-subtle ways. AICN Quint (4:00:28 PM): haha, yeah. that was great. and a totally excusable way to have a good guy use lethal force AICN Quint (4:00:37 PM): yeah, "effing" was all over the book AICN Quint (4:01:02 PM): But, I have to say. In the last couple of years I've been lucky enough to have traveled all over the world AICN Quint (4:01:22 PM): and the one constant... when money is different, language is different, culture is different, the one constant I've seen is Harry Potter AICN Quint (4:01:24 PM): It's global AICN Quint (4:02:21 PM): In Prague they had Potter marionettes, in Spain Potter was on ice cream shop windows, in London it's even crazier for Potter, in Serbia, a culture that is only a handful of years out of communist control, Potter was all the place MoriartyAICN (4:02:41 PM): With the first book, I think the appeal was the same appeal that the first STAR WARS tapped in '77. "I may be ordinary and live in the back end of nowhere and I may feel trapped, but I think I can be part of amazing things, and that there is a destiny for me out there." MoriartyAICN (4:02:48 PM): Basic wish fulfillment. MoriartyAICN (4:02:53 PM): But I think it's become something else by the end. AICN Quint (4:02:58 PM): it's a movement AICN Quint (4:03:07 PM): it's really connecting people MoriartyAICN (4:03:09 PM): By now, the main push of the storytelling is the drive to maturity that we all have to face. MoriartyAICN (4:03:17 PM): Forget any of the magic. AICN Quint (4:03:26 PM): kids and parents can both enjoy and discuss. MoriartyAICN (4:03:33 PM): It's the notion that we are faced with choices every day... big ones and small ones... and each of them adds up to who you are. MoriartyAICN (4:04:10 PM): And sometimes, we aren't who we appear to be because people don't know every choice we've made or why. The chapter where Harry sees Snape's memories in this one is sad more than anything. AICN Quint (4:04:26 PM): the strong through-line of how important true friendship is probably my favorite message of the series MoriartyAICN (4:04:28 PM): Snape is sort of pathetic and yet sort of brave and yet sort of loathsome... MoriartyAICN (4:04:50 PM): Well, you and I have talked about what friendship is worth many times. AICN Quint (4:05:04 PM): yeah, and how snape was pretty much "See me." It wasn't just to give Harry the information he needed for his final confrontation with Voldemort, but I do genuinely think he wanted Potter to understand him MoriartyAICN (4:05:16 PM): And I know you. I know what kind of person you are. I can see why the messages in the book would really resonate with you. AICN Quint (4:05:30 PM): Friendship is really important to me AICN Quint (4:06:20 PM): I have a lot of friends, people I like and talk to regularly, but there's really only a small core that I trust implicitly and I think I'm stronger for them MoriartyAICN (4:06:28 PM): I like that there are many mistakes made between the friends in these books. In this last one alone, there are some huge ones. That's important. MoriartyAICN (4:06:41 PM): Because forgiveness and understanding and empathy... those are parts of real friendship. MoriartyAICN (4:07:07 PM): As long as you know... REALLY KNOW... that the other person has your best interests at heart... there's little that you can't overcome. AICN Quint (4:07:23 PM): Agreed. And I love that the huge rifts in this one are helped by the horcruxs AICN Quint (4:07:34 PM): so it doesn't feel forced when Ron goes batshit MoriartyAICN (4:07:55 PM): I like that there are moral messages from the first three STAR WARS films that rattle around inside a generation, and the same is true of other things I grew up with, like Jim Henson's work... and I hope that much of what Rowling obviously values makes its way into the daily lives of her readers. AICN Quint (4:08:08 PM): and if the horcruxs bring that kind of anger to the surface, it makes so much sense why Harry's been warring with anger his whole life MoriartyAICN (4:08:17 PM): Yep. AICN Quint (4:08:33 PM): he has literally been warring with himself MoriartyAICN (4:08:44 PM): It seems like most of the hardcore readers figured out a lot of this one ahead of time through simple logic. "Harry is a Horcrux." Well, duh. MoriartyAICN (4:09:14 PM): But there's a difference between "obvious" and "inevitable," and I think Rowling has been writing towards the inevitable for a while now. AICN Quint (4:09:41 PM): the glimpse we get at the very end of the book show Harry has calmed, is untroubled. I think Voldemort ended the war. I love that Voldemort kills himself. He doesn't mean to, but he takes every single opportunity to fuck himself over AICN Quint (4:10:31 PM): yeah, if the plot point is earned, then it doesn't matter if you see it coming or not AICN Quint (4:11:07 PM): I've been seeing it coming for 3 books that Hermione and Ron were going to get together, but that didn't stop me from being happy when they finally kissed MoriartyAICN (4:11:30 PM): Yeah. It's a great kiss, and the director of that last film better make it the moment it should be. AICN Quint (4:11:29 PM): I've seen it coming that Snape was the tragic hero of the series, but that didn't make me not enjoy his arc MoriartyAICN (4:11:36 PM): That last film is the biggest challenge of the series. AICN Quint (4:11:47 PM): dude, just reading it... I don't know how they're going to do it MoriartyAICN (4:11:54 PM): Good luck to whatever poor bastard gets that job. AICN Quint (4:12:34 PM): It either has to be two movies or they'll pare it down and leave out the closing arcs to so many characters... or it'll just feel rushed AICN Quint (4:12:57 PM): I liked Order of the Phoenix (the movie) a lot, but I can't deny there is a rushed feeling to it MoriartyAICN (4:13:10 PM): Yeah, I don't think they needed to make GOBLET OF FIRE two films, but I think they HAVE to take the time to get DEATHLY HALLOWS right. AICN Quint (4:13:10 PM): I'd hope that doesn't happen in Hallows AICN Quint (4:13:26 PM): yeah, there's a lot of fat on Goblet of Fire AICN Quint (4:13:32 PM): here, the action is lean and mean AICN Quint (4:13:36 PM): from page one MoriartyAICN (4:13:43 PM): Y'know what really surprises me about this series? The most adult thing about it, and perhaps the single most important subtext... MoriartyAICN (4:13:45 PM): Race. AICN Quint (4:13:50 PM): you know this is the end game and that every single piece is important MoriartyAICN (4:13:56 PM): And that is not something that children's books typically deal with. MoriartyAICN (4:14:17 PM): Yet, here, it's part of every conflict. The entire reason for the war is the notion of "purebloods" and "racial purity." MoriartyAICN (4:14:35 PM): It's frightening because we know... this is exactly the sort of shit that makes entire nations crazy. MoriartyAICN (4:14:47 PM): I like that the war isn't about some magic rock or some mythical throne. MoriartyAICN (4:15:03 PM): It's about wanting to erase everyone who is different, who is lesser, who is "unworthy." AICN Quint (4:15:31 PM): well, the entire concept of rising to power by confusing the masses and preying on their buried racism isn't new, but you're right. It's not usually dealt with in a series like this, at least not as overtly MoriartyAICN (4:18:04 PM): So tell me the truth... MoriartyAICN (4:18:13 PM): Do you think we've seen the last of the Potterverse? MoriartyAICN (4:18:18 PM): I know this series is done... MoriartyAICN (4:18:37 PM): But do you think Rowling will be able to resist the urge to ever peek back in on these characters? AICN Quint (4:19:01 PM): She was staunchly opposed to it in all the years leading up to it AICN Quint (4:19:07 PM): but even now she's saying there might be more AICN Quint (4:19:36 PM): I honestly don't want to see another series with adult Potter or little Albus Severus Potter AICN Quint (4:20:15 PM): I think the 7 books are great for what they did for a whole generation of kids, kind of held their hand and guided them into adulthood AICN Quint (4:20:35 PM): I'd love to see what else Rowling has up her sleeve AICN Quint (4:20:54 PM): that said, I couldn't resist picking up another Potter book she wrote, so I'm just a big hypocrite MoriartyAICN (4:21:38 PM): Yeah, I'm really curious about her as a writer away from the series. MoriartyAICN (4:22:05 PM): I think she's grown quite a bit as a writer in the last decade. This is, just on a technical level, so much more accomplished than PHILOSPHER'S STONE. AICN Quint (4:22:16 PM): yeah, definitely MoriartyAICN (4:23:22 PM): Alright... so closing thoughts... it's finally over... what last feeling are you left with as you look at the book on your desk, closed and completely read at this point? AICN Quint (4:27:42 PM): I think as a final book it really is everything I was hoping it would be. I love how it does come full circle. Harry leaves Privet Dr. just as he arrived, etc AICN Quint (4:27:54 PM): I think the drawing to arms moment is incredible AICN Quint (4:28:50 PM): the battle at Hogwarts is epic, really mindblowing and involves characters with 7 full novels of baggage, so you really do feel invested MoriartyAICN (4:29:40 PM): If I have any complaint, I felt like the Malfoys were sort of marginalized in this one, and I wish there had been more concrete resolution with them realizing just how little all of their evil had gained them. AICN Quint (4:29:40 PM): I'm happy with the ending. I'm sad that it's an addiction without another hit on the horizon, but I think Rowling has kept the series her own. You don't get any feeling that she compromised at all AICN Quint (4:29:49 PM): and she told this story as she wanted to tell it AICN Quint (4:30:17 PM): yeah, I can see that. they were very much in the background AICN Quint (4:30:46 PM): You know... I think some of that would have been alleviated if it was Lucious who asked Potter if Draco was alive AICN Quint (4:31:12 PM): it would have been a stronger arc for him than for his wife, who we don't really know or care much about MoriartyAICN (4:31:41 PM): Yeah. As it is, Lucious is pretty much a non-entity in this book. AICN Quint (4:31:40 PM): but, yeah. I see what you're saying MoriartyAICN (4:32:43 PM): But a minor complaint. I think this is a really strong fantasy series, and overall, I think this is one of the best literary attempts to capture all of the stages of adolescence and maturity, all the frustration and joy and pain of it, and by taking her time, Rowling makes it all count. AICN Quint (4:33:24 PM): yeah, she earns her big moments AICN Quint (4:33:58 PM): and one thing I'd like to talk about before this is over MoriartyAICN (4:34:03 PM): Oh... and I wish someone had torn off Umbridge's head and shoved it up her own butt. AICN Quint (4:34:07 PM): haha AICN Quint (4:34:09 PM): that, too MoriartyAICN (4:34:11 PM): That also disappointed me. AICN Quint (4:34:21 PM): I was going, "Oh shit! Finally! This bitch is in for it!" MoriartyAICN (4:34:27 PM): Yeah, me, too. MoriartyAICN (4:34:32 PM): "Awwww, damn. She's in it now." AICN Quint (4:35:10 PM): but one thing I want to talk about that I really think separates this series from most other fantasy or episodic storytelling (this is, afterall, a story in 7 parts) AICN Quint (4:35:16 PM): is how she doesn't cheat AICN Quint (4:35:48 PM): Rowling kills someone, they're dead. None of this comic-book or soap opera shit where the dead come back AICN Quint (4:35:51 PM): when someone dies it's for real AICN Quint (4:36:29 PM): there might be hints of them left, as in real life, but she doesn't cheapen the characters by making their sacrifices or mistakes not matter AICN Quint (4:36:51 PM): dumbledore can't obi-wan it with harry... I love that she even kept Harry away from his portrait until the very end AICN Quint (4:37:41 PM): it really is down to Harry and what he chooses to do. she stripped him of those strongest around him, apart from Hermione and Ron AICN Quint (4:38:24 PM): and I don't think that's a bad thing to have... I still love LOTR even though Gandalf comes back AICN Quint (4:38:32 PM): I love Star Wars when we see Obi-Wan AICN Quint (4:38:53 PM): but there's something to commend about keeping the finality of death MoriartyAICN (4:38:57 PM): Yeah, I was afraid he's spend the whole movie talking to the portrait. AICN Quint (4:39:46 PM): I was starting to worry when the resurrection stone was brought up and the legend of the deathly hallows... that she was trying to create an excuse to give Harry help at the end AICN Quint (4:39:56 PM): because earlier on in the series, there's a whole lot of convenience AICN Quint (4:40:10 PM): but here it needed to be tight AICN Quint (4:40:27 PM): I love that Harry in the end uses the stone to draw strength, not to pull a ghost army out of his ass AICN Quint (4:40:31 PM): or something MoriartyAICN (4:40:38 PM): Or even to bring himself back. MoriartyAICN (4:40:45 PM): It's smart. AICN Quint (4:40:50 PM): yeah, that's what I thought it was going to be, actually AICN Quint (4:40:58 PM): because he had all the hallows AICN Quint (4:41:35 PM): but then throws that curve-ball of the relationship between a wizard and his wand AICN Quint (4:41:49 PM): so, yeah MoriartyAICN (4:41:54 PM): Yeah. She's careful about the rules she creates, and she sticks to them. AICN Quint (4:41:54 PM): she had many opportunities to cheapen out AICN Quint (4:42:04 PM): but didn't MoriartyAICN (4:42:08 PM): And there are places where she could have easily written herself into a corner. MoriartyAICN (4:42:18 PM): I know that you and I are both DARK TOWER fans. MoriartyAICN (4:42:25 PM): I think she nailed her ending in a way King didn't. MoriartyAICN (4:42:38 PM): As much as I like that series, I know why it makes many fans cry bitter tears at night. AICN Quint (4:42:37 PM): even the King's Cross chapter could have been really stupid, but she's able to cut through all that with that one line dumbledor has at the end when Harry asks if this is all in his mind or if he's in the other place AICN Quint (4:42:51 PM): and Dumbledore's like, "Of course it's your mind. Where else would it be?" AICN Quint (4:43:20 PM): well, it seems in Dark Tower 7 King's choice was to strip Roland of everything AICN Quint (4:43:24 PM): I love the end end to Dark Tower AICN Quint (4:43:57 PM): but King never had the build up to it and the Crimson King ended up being pretty weak sauce AICN Quint (4:44:17 PM): I wanted to see Roland and his ka-tet in a giant, epic battle AICN Quint (4:44:34 PM): Rowling gives us that release. It's been building for 7 books and we desperately needed it AICN Quint (4:44:54 PM): and King had been building for 7 books and didn't give us that release AICN Quint (4:45:04 PM): I love the series. I love what it means AICN Quint (4:45:26 PM): I love the thought behind the ending, but he made some poor choices, I think, leading to that ending AICN Quint (4:45:59 PM): it certainly wasn't what his audience wanted and Rowling I think is a bit more conscious of pleasing her audience with Potter than King was with Dark Tower MoriartyAICN (4:47:01 PM): Can't wait to see what King says about DEATHLY HALLOWS. MoriartyAICN (4:47:06 PM): You know he'll write it up for EW. AICN Quint (4:47:17 PM): and he's a bigger Potter nerd than anybody AICN Quint (4:48:13 PM): by the way... Kreacher... is the bomb MoriartyAICN (4:48:22 PM): Yep. MoriartyAICN (4:48:26 PM): Glad she left him in. MoriartyAICN (4:48:37 PM): Or convinced the filmmakers to. She was right. AICN Quint (4:48:42 PM): and just that small payoff at the end AICN Quint (4:48:57 PM): when he leads the Hogwarts house elves into battle AICN Quint (4:49:15 PM): THat was so great AICN Quint (4:50:25 PM): again, it's that layering. not just of the set-up and payoffs, but how she sets up Kreacher as being so despicable and then makes you love him a couple books later AICN Quint (4:50:28 PM): like snape MoriartyAICN (4:50:40 PM): Okay... if you want to keep chatting a little later, we can. MoriartyAICN (4:50:52 PM): But right now, I'm going to go jump in my pool with my family for a few. MoriartyAICN (4:51:20 PM): I'm glad you enjoyed it, man. MoriartyAICN (4:51:25 PM): I'm glad you're satisfied. AICN Quint (4:51:40 PM): yeah, it's hard to know if these emotional investments are going to pay off in the end AICN Quint (4:51:47 PM): there's been so much disappointment AICN Quint (4:51:51 PM): and fumbles AICN Quint (4:52:05 PM): but I'm a geek and I can't help but get attached to shit like this AICN Quint (4:52:12 PM): heh
Readers Talkback
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  • July 23, 2007, 6:41 a.m. CST

    He dies at the end! Frist!

    by alex_cutter

    He dies at the end! Frist!

  • July 23, 2007, 6:57 a.m. CST

    You may want to put a SPOILER warning on this...

    by Negative Man

    ...Just sayin'. Even skimming over your text kinda blew some stuff for me. But, I'm sure someone will blow everything for me by Monday noon anyhow. Hell, the ending of THE DEPARTED was blown by the idiot Jillian Barberie on live tv the week after it hit the theaters. Sheesh. I can't have nothin' nice.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:04 a.m. CST

    Here's my Amazon.com review (spoilers at end)

    by chrth

    Let me start with the negative criticism, then end with the positive. I will remain spoiler-free as best as possible until the end of the review, but you'll get fair warning. <br> First off, the middle is a muddle. Too many 'Disguise/Infiltrate/Escape' sequences. Too much time spent doing 'nothing' but hiding in the woods. I think JKR could've lopped off about a hundred pages and nothing would've been lost. <br> Secondly, JKR doesn't write good 'action' sequences; just like in Book 6, once the fighting starts in Hogwarts there's a little too much confusion. Ditto other locales from the aforementioned 'Disguise/Infiltrate/Escape' scenes. <br> Finally, a couple minor negatives: Does Ron really need to say 'effing' multiple times? Did we really need yet another fight among the trio? I expected more trouble obtaining a couple of the horcruxes. And I may never forgive JKR for one of the deaths. <br> Now for some criticism that I would label as 'neutral': The titular Deathly Hallows. On the one hand, I thought they were really well done and added some nice background to the wizarding world ... on the other, they sort of came out of nowhere. Sure, the items themselves have appeared in previous books, but the whole Deathly Hallows appears to be a new introduction into the final book, rather than something JKR has built up to. <br> Now for the positives. First, the opening of the book: page 1 to the arrival of Shacklebolt's Patronus was Fantastic. There was action, tender moments, comedy (especially Harry's birthday present from Ron), everything you could ask for in an HP book. There's no way not to get hooked from the get-go. <br> I was also surprised to see Dumbledore -- despite being (and yes, remaining) dead -- play such a prominent role in the book. It was almost like a parallel to Harry's learning about Tom Riddle in the previous book. In addition, it fleshed out nicely some of the questioned things from previous books (like Albus' withered arm) that we did not have answers to. It worked really well. <br> And of course, there's the ending. Very well done. JKR stayed consistent to the mythology, didn't leave any open questions or inherent contradictions (at least none that I could see), and she gave us an ending that fits perfectly with the other books. <br> While not the best of the series (I think either HBP or GOF vie for that title) due to its middle section, this is a solid, well-thought out and well-received book. It is the end of the Harry Potter series, but it leaves the reader satisfied. Who could ask for anything more? <br> Ok, there are two more things (one positive, one negative) I want to discuss that are heavy spoilers, so if you haven't read the book stop reading this review. <br> First the negative: I hate the fact that the curse that Dumbledore received via the Gaunt ring gave him only a year to live. Having Dumbledore choose to die -- as well as Snape agreeing to kill him -- are diminished by it. Dumbledore's sacrifice seems less poignant, and Snape's commitment seems less courageous as a result. I thought this was the only serious misstep JKR made in the entire series. <br> And the positive: Lily Evans and Snape. Fantastic. Now we know why Lily was so good in potions. And why it truly was Snape's Worst Memory. Snape's character throughout all the books becomes that much greater as a result. Well done Ms. Rowling. <br> Phew, I think I said enough. If you made it to the bottom, thanks for reading. <br>

  • July 23, 2007, 7:05 a.m. CST

    Great article

    by jonnyweir

    Thanks guys

  • July 23, 2007, 7:05 a.m. CST

    Oh yeah, put a SPOILER warning on

    by jonnyweir

    Yeah

  • July 23, 2007, 7:12 a.m. CST

    generally agree with Chrth (minor spoilers)

    by Lost Prophet

    but I just want to add a few more minor things: <p>Positive: What she did with the dursley's at the beginning- especially Dudley- was a pleasant surprise and raised my hopes for the rest of it. <p>Negative- Harry being a dumbass (again) (SPOILER) having been told repeatedly that voldemort's name is taboo- and despite Ron and Hermione trying to stop him the cretin blurts the name anyway. I know she needed to find some way to adavance the story out of the wandering around in the wood with fuck all to eat stage, but it seemed to be a touch convenient to say the least. <p>only minor complaints really, and certainly a tighter read than OoTP or HBP. <p>I quite like Ron swearing.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:13 a.m. CST

    BananafestDestiny (BIG SPOILER)

    by Lost Prophet

    I think- although I am bound to be corrected- it is because as the Wand chooses the wizard (like malfoy) The wand itself chose Grindlewald, and therefore made him it's master

  • July 23, 2007, 7:16 a.m. CST

    As a general rule, I don't have an issue with swearing

    by chrth

    But 'effing' projects the word so thoroughly, you might as well say the word. But since it's a children's book, he can't. It's a cop-out. Make up a word, like Frak.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:17 a.m. CST

    Elder wand & the Thief (SPOILER)

    by thejwac

    Well, Dumbledore was the only wizard who ever defeated the Elder Wand in combat. Everyone else who took it from the owner, killed in subversive ways. This leads me to believe Grindelwald, like Voldy, was never the wand's master

  • July 23, 2007, 7:18 a.m. CST

    BananafestDestiny (Mucho Spoiler)

    by chrth

    Ownership of the Elder Wand is granted by Disarming as well as Defeating. Thus Draco, who does Expelliarmus on Dumbledore, is the owner of the Elder Wand.<p> Stealing is the same as Disarming; in fact, it's essentially what Harry does to Disarm Draco. So there's no inconsistency there.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Yes, chrth, but it is still a kiddies book

    by Lost Prophet

    at least in name only (heh). So a big fat FUCK from a ginger teenager would be unlikely to make it. I'm quite surprised that they allowed BITCH through. <p>anyone else think Harry nailed Ginny between the books or "off-screen"?

  • July 23, 2007, 7:20 a.m. CST

    Speaking of Wands (possible 'sequel' spoiler)

    by chrth

    What happened to Voldemort's Wand? Think about it.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:22 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet

    by chrth

    Well, they did say 'Wizard's Pants!' at one point. Obviously they can't say Fuck, but something similar.<p> As for Harry nailing Ginny, I swear to God my initial thought was that she was going to give him her virginity for his birthday. I'm a bad person. But no, there was no point that it could've happened 'off-screen' between books 6 & 7.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:23 a.m. CST

    You didn't mention Dark Towers pseudo-spoilers!

    by MetaFreePhorAll

    Lame. I don't even know if anything was spoiled, but still.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:23 a.m. CST

    Oh, on Spoilers

    by chrth

    Seriously, guys (and gals), if you haven't read the book, don't read the talkback. There's no way to discuss without going into serious spoilage.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:23 a.m. CST

    Now I think about it, (SPOILER)

    by Lost Prophet

    it was definately better than "Harry Potter and the Sordid Wank Fantasy"- which is pretty much what a large section of the last 2 were. Not sure if it is the best of the series though. <p>voldemort's wand? good point- he didn't have it all book

  • July 23, 2007, 7:24 a.m. CST

    "But to potentially ruin it for children?!"

    by Mike_D

    Quint, fellas, I dont think children come to this website (well, not the kind I'm sure your thinking about).

  • July 23, 2007, 7:26 a.m. CST

    aah yes but chrth (another spoiler)

    by Lost Prophet

    there is that bit of dialogue at the weasleys where ROn says that he knew ginny was lying about a tattoo on Harry's naked chest- which implies that she has seen it naked and it isn't that much of a leap (in my mind) from topless adolescent fooling around to sex.<p>Fucking cannot be arsed to type spoiler anymore- if you see my handle assume I am going to spoil something.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:28 a.m. CST

    ANY adult that read the first book and kept going...

    by Horseflesh

    Do us all a favor and never EVER reproduce. Someone tried to turn me onto this series and said "Just read the first book, you'll change your mind!" One of the worst fucking books I've ever had the misfortune of wasting a few hours on. Get out and read more if you thought that crap was good. Can't speak for any book in the series after that because I ran screaming. Terry Pratchett should cleanse you all in fire.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:28 a.m. CST

    Harry's chest

    by chrth

    What Ginny said in HBP was a joke, and Ron was merely confirming it. I wouldn't read that much into it. It IS a children's book.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:30 a.m. CST

    I could have sworn

    by I am a machineee

    that when Ron and Hermione were "in the bathroom" that they were getting it on before their possible doom. Some Amazon review said they were sickened by all the nudity, violence, and sex. I didn't get any sex!

  • July 23, 2007, 7:31 a.m. CST

    but it could be being subversive- she has "grown up"

    by Lost Prophet

    as an author after all. <p>Horseflesh- fuck off- they are entertaining diversions, no-one is comparing them to War and Peace. Why you felt the need to post that shit here is a fucking mystery especially considering how much more sophisticated number 7 is compared to number 1.<p>

  • July 23, 2007, 7:32 a.m. CST

    on sex (FUCKING SPOILERS AGAIN)

    by Lost Prophet

    there are a couple of gropes. thy're pretty tame for supposed 17 year olds.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:34 a.m. CST

    Entertaining diversions?

    by Horseflesh

    So is wacking off in the bathtub all afternoon, I don't recommend that to a grown up either.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:35 a.m. CST

    Guys, just ignore Horseflesh

    by chrth

    Do not feed the trolls.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:35 a.m. CST

    Thanks, guys

    by ErnieAnderson

    Your IM conversation covered a whole lot of my thoughts on the book. Can't say I wasn't utterly pleased.<p> I really didn't want to ever read the books or see the movies. Right before ORDER OF THE PHOENIX came out, I lost a bet and had to read the first two to settle my end of it. After the first sentence, I knew I was hooked. Damn Potter nerds made me one of them!<p> Now, it's over. And while I'm saddened that the series has ended, I'm glad that I read it. I really don't know what type of story I'd like to see Rowling tackle next. But I'd bet I'll read it, nonetheless.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:36 a.m. CST

    Nice.

    by Lost Prophet

    I'm not suggesting that they are the height of literature, but they pass the time. <p>If you feel a need to compare reading a book to wanking stay out of the library.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:38 a.m. CST

    Good Omens was terrible

    by HeWhoCannotBeNamed

    just terrible

  • July 23, 2007, 7:39 a.m. CST

    or Jackie Collins.

    by Lost Prophet

    or any of the Chick-Lit that pollutes bookshops nowadays. Or anything by Helen Fielding (I fucking loathe and despise Bridget Jones).

  • July 23, 2007, 7:39 a.m. CST

    Ah Horseflesh,

    by I am a machineee

    Grown-up activities are ones such as hanging around a message board for something he dislikes to post negativity to those who enjoy it?

  • July 23, 2007, 7:40 a.m. CST

    If you see someone driving around

    by Nuck81

    with spoilers written on their windows, Key their fucking car. I was a little disappointed the first 300 pages or so, but it won me back over.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:41 a.m. CST

    Oh, and thanks Mori & Quint

    by HeWhoCannotBeNamed

    I enjoyed reading your conversation. Looking forward to the films for the last two books. Making the seventh a two parter would be nice, however, does anyone think WB is brave/bold enough to do so? I'd certainly love to see it...

  • July 23, 2007, 7:42 a.m. CST

    Haha yeah I was "hanging around" waiting for this. :P

    by Horseflesh

    I'm trying to bring up a legitimate point here (While igniting the flames of The Goblet of Fanboy). <pr> <pr> How the HELL did you people make it past that first awful AWWWWFUL book. I've never felt so talked down to and seen so many hacked together unoriginal ideas spackled together by a soulless writer. Like I said I can't speak for book 2 or beyond, but that first one? I gave it every chance and page after page it enraged me with it's stink.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:47 a.m. CST

    Horseflesh: We're discussing Book 7 not 1 & Banana

    by chrth

    The one I thought would bite it was Hermione. One of the themes with the deaths has been JKR killing off those that stood in the way of Harry reaching his potential (first Sirius, then Dumbledore). Hermione qualified because of his dependence on her.<p. Turns out it was the opposite! Hermione survived to slow down Harry!

  • July 23, 2007, 7:48 a.m. CST

    I didn't read the first book first

    by Lost Prophet

    I swore to avoid them out of snobbery- and was stuck on a train with nothing to read when some kid forgot his copy of Goblet of Fire. I then went back and read them. <p>No, the first one is not great, but it is not as bad as you are making out.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:48 a.m. CST

    Doh, lost half my post

    by chrth

    The second paragraph said "Turns out it was the opposite, Hermione survives because she provides a necessary 'braking effect' on Harry"

  • July 23, 2007, 7:49 a.m. CST

    On the deaths

    by Lost Prophet

    I read in the paper last week that it was going to be a bloodbath- so I thought it was going to be both Ron and Hermione. I also thought Hagrid was toast (or maybe that was just wish fulfillment on my behalf)

  • July 23, 2007, 7:51 a.m. CST

    Well, it was a bloodbath (MASSIVE SPOILAGE)

    by chrth

    Lupin and Tonks was cruel after having the baby. Poor Colin Creevy. Dobby. Hedwig. Mad-Eye. Crabbe.<p> AND FRED WEASLEY! HOW DARE SHE KILL FRED?!?!?!?!?! AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!

  • July 23, 2007, 7:52 a.m. CST

    "NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU B(gunshot)"

    by Romoehlio

    is that what they are going to do when this gets made into a movie? can`t wait for book 6+7- movies, they do have the chance to concentrate on the big things so those movies should be lean and mean (just imaginening the ending of seven seen on the big screen is going to be AWESOME!). i do hope they cut the EPILOGUE cause its just to cheesy...

  • July 23, 2007, 7:55 a.m. CST

    yes- but when I read bloodbath I thought a

    by Lost Prophet

    lot more than that. Colin Creevey was a surpirse and (MASSIVE SPOILER) after George lost an ear I thought fred was going to be OK. But all the rest (aside from arguably dobby)really were minor chracters- a jacobean slaughter would have included at least one of the big 3, hagrid, a few teachers (for example it could easily have been trelawny and not some non-entity), Either Malfoy or his dad as opposed to Crabbe, Wormtail kicking it was inevitable, but Umbridge should also have gone, and so on.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:01 a.m. CST

    "NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU BITCH!"

    by critch

    Absolutely loved it. Highlights: The aforementioned line. Ginny propositioning Harry in her room, only to be thwarted by Ron. The Battle (Helms Deep, anyone?)

  • July 23, 2007, 8:02 a.m. CST

    Romoehlio & Lost Prophet

    by chrth

    The movie is going to be interesting. I do believe the Epilogue will be in there; I'm just curious how they're going to do the final confrontations.<p> LP: I guess Bloodbath is relative. None of the other books had this level of death in them.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:04 a.m. CST

    Re: "Not my daughter you bitch"

    by chrth

    Did Mrs. Weasley actually use the Avada Kedavra on Bellatrix? Or if you do a stunning spell on someone in the right spot you can stop their heart?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:04 a.m. CST

    I know,

    by Lost Prophet

    but I am still sulking that she didn't ace Hagrid as I was completely fucking sick of the one note cretin ages ago. <p>Mind you, she did Dobby, so I suppose that is a consolation prize

  • July 23, 2007, 8:07 a.m. CST

    SPOILERS

    by Lost Prophet

    Interestingly, as the book is heavy on the ethnic purity angle, did anyone else notice that practically the first thing that the teachers did when preparing for battle was to purge the slytherins from the builing? It would have been nice to see one or two alongside the school- maybe as cannon fodder.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:08 a.m. CST

    Re: "Not my daughter you bitch"

    by Lost Prophet

    It doesn't say, but they can cast spells without speaking them so there is no reason why it couldn't have been the killing curse.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:08 a.m. CST

    Hagrid's purpose, though, I think

    by chrth

    Required him to survive. One, it's fitting that Hagrid was the one to carry Harry to Hogwarts as that links up to book one. Two, Hagrid was always a great barometer for Harry's maturity; if you focus on the Harry/Hagrid relationship, you can see Harry outgrow Hagrid. While I agree Hagrid could be annoying, I always felt he was the most fleshed out in terms of relationships with Harry. Even the relationship with Dumbledore had a lot of gaps (that Harry ruefully notes in Book 7)

  • July 23, 2007, 8:09 a.m. CST

    HARRY vs. Voldemort

    by Romoehlio

    i do hope they shoot the duell somehow different (maybe even a bit more epic) because i really didn`t like the fact that everyone was standing around them, they should have watched from somewhere else... corrdct me if im wrong but what did hermione and ron do during the finale other than destroy the cup? isnt that bit of a let down?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:10 a.m. CST

    Everyone knows the Hufflepuffs are the cannon fodder

    by chrth

    <nt>

  • July 23, 2007, 8:12 a.m. CST

    On the unforgivable curses

    by chrth

    I always thought that the side of good would never use them; I thought the whole point of Bellatrix vs Harry in OOTP and Harry vs Snape in HBP was that Harry shouldn't use them. Yet Harry ends up using the Imperius curse in Book 7. Frustrating inconsistency in my opinion.<p> Ditto the forces of good. At what point is it forgivable to use an unforgivable curse?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:13 a.m. CST

    And on silently casting spells

    by chrth

    Wasn't that a major point at the end of HBP? Shouldn't it have been a plot point in Book 7?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:15 a.m. CST

    I loved the infiltration scenes...

    by Dolph

    At the Ministry and Gringotts, it was like Harry went all Mission Impossible, and I can imagine a Director taking those scenes and running with them. They'll have to get around the fact that Harry & co are disguised as other people though, as it is not going to work cinematically to be watching random faces during those scenes...

  • July 23, 2007, 8:16 a.m. CST

    on hagrid

    by Lost Prophet

    yes, but a fitting coda would have been Hagrid's funeral. I agree that it was fitting for Hagrid to carry Harry into Hogwarts, but he could easily have been killed after that. <p>I didn't mind the wholesale use of the curses, although it does seem a bit inconsistent from the Goblet of Fire.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:18 a.m. CST

    Overall, it was good, but...

    by Baltimoron

    Much Spoilage - I had a problem with a few parts:<p> 1) The pacing was a bit off I thought for the first half of the book (we'll call it, backpacking through the UK).<p> 2) Why did the wandmaker and the theif have to have such a close name. Heh.<p> 3) Weird coincidences, i.e. I have a tent, luckily packed in this beaded bag AND the random meeting of Dean and company in the woods whom happened to end up catching fish right next to them.<p> 4) Epilogue - Oh great, now we know all the names of your kids, which is great, but what Luna, and what are your jobs (Auror's?). Just felt way too short to me.<p> With that out of the way, I thought it was overall a great book. An excellent final act. The battle at Hogwarts was well written, and the final scenes in the forest and courtyard were equally as great. Not to be forgotten, the chapter "The Prince's Story" was also a great wrap-up for Snape.<p> Anyway, off to the real-world with bleary red-eyes from reading until 4:30am. YAWN!

  • July 23, 2007, 8:20 a.m. CST

    The problem with the infiltration scenes is

    by chrth

    that the same thing happens every time. A disguise (even when caught by Greyback, a disguise comes into play), an infiltration, and then an escape. It happens FOUR TIMES. Ministry of Magic, Lovegood's, Malfoy Manor, and then Gringotts. Granted, the Malfoy Manor one is different, and the disguise at Lovegood's is just the cloak -- but let's face it, the same formula is applied four times. Couldn't she have mixed it up a little? Maybe have one of the infiltrations happen without a hitch? It's just too repetitive, almost like a Mad Lib: [Character] appears as [Character] in [Place] in order to retrieve [Item] but is caught by [Character] but is able to escape using [Spell/Event]

  • July 23, 2007, 8:21 a.m. CST

    MASSIVE MASSIVE SPOILERS

    by Lost Prophet

    I honestly believe that this is going to be difficult to film as a children's movie. The gruesome violence in it (George's ear, Wormtail strangling himself, Hermione being tortured, to give a few examples), the high body count, and some moments of genuine horror (the godric's hollow part, the corpse of Dumbledore acting as security), the tone, and the adult nature of a lot of the themes are going to make it difficult for a film maker. So in honour of that- they should just make it PG13 at least and blame it on JK Rowling.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:23 a.m. CST

    On the paucity of information in the Epilogue

    by chrth

    I think that was deliberate. JKR likes people debating things. I'm sure all the Harry Potter forums now have "What is Harry's job?" threads going nuts.<p> The fun part is knowing stuff that wasn't mentioned, like: who is Victoire? (Bill and Fleur's Daughter) What is James' middle name? (Sirius)<p> But the one question that's killing me from the Epilogue: Why Hugo?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:23 a.m. CST

    I agree about the infiltration scenes

    by Lost Prophet

    The lovegood scene is pretty useless in terms of plot and everything- so could easily have gone, which would have left 3 rather than 4.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:24 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet: Er, aren't the movies already PG-13?

    by chrth

    <nt>

  • July 23, 2007, 8:26 a.m. CST

    these posts make it sound like I didn't like it

    by Lost Prophet

    I did. It's just fun to discuss what we would have done (given the ideas/ talent etc) now that we have the final version. <p>Chrth is bang on about the epilogue- that was deliberate, not just for the reasons he says, but also in case she feels a need to come back to it.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:26 a.m. CST

    RE: chrth - Hugo?!

    by Baltimoron

    I noticed one of her first writing awards (on one of the last pages) is a "Hugo Award". Something to do with the name?!

  • July 23, 2007, 8:27 a.m. CST

    Its a little harsh...

    by Tourist

    To ask adults who read and enjoyed the series to stop reproducing. Yes, they are to the written word as starbucks is to coffee. But, you know, they aren't the worst books ever written, nor the least enjoyable. Derivative, plain and unchallenging on any level, true, but they hardly spread evil and pain throughout the populace. We're not talking mind pollutant like American Idol or Dancing with the stars or broadcast current affairs shows. Mild diverting fun. I did read past the first book by the way, got 3 and a half in before I stopped wasting my time. I'd rather have seen kids go crazy over the Ender's series myself, since the ideas and values present there are alot more pertinent than the wishy washy everyone is equal-lets all hold hands and look at rainbows and sigh pap Rowling spreads...But, hey, like I said, mediocre ideas for a mediocre population.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:28 a.m. CST

    Don't know

    by Lost Prophet

    i just presumed they were ordinary PG. Make it 15 rated in the UK. It'll shit on your profits but at least be true to the book.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:29 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet: Agreed, I enjoyed it too

    by chrth

    It's just easier to discuss the negatives because it's easier to see what could've been done to make it better.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:32 a.m. CST

    Ginny

    by Baltimoron

    One more missing piece that I felt would have been a great touch (no pun intended) would have been for Harry, as he walked by Ginny near the very, very end (pre-Ep) to put his hand on her back as he passed as a comfort. I don't know...after the kiss they shared about 100 or so pages in, I felt like after all of that longing, there should have been one special moment at the end, even a touch, that would have sealed their love for each other. We knew they were going to be together in the Ep (if he didn't die) but to have nothing but longing looks between the. I don't know...maybe I'm just a sucker for romance, or maybe I just need more sleep.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:32 a.m. CST

    Tourist

    by Lost Prophet

    yes- everything you say is true (albeit pompously), but at least kids are reading, and now kids that would never otherwise have found the Ender books might do now.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:36 a.m. CST

    It is spoiler-twats that shouldn't reproduce...

    by Frijole

    Not people that happen to have a different opinion of a book than the mighty horseflesh. And Lost Prophet... yeah, the first three movies were PG, but Goblet and Phoenix were both PG-13.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:37 a.m. CST

    fucking hell that was incoherent

    by Lost Prophet

    sorry. <p>What I meant is that by prompting kids to read, she has done the world a service.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:37 a.m. CST

    On Horcruxes (superly massive spoilage)

    by chrth

    My wife is still reading the book (and we reproduced two months ago! Take that, Horseflesh!), and she notes that Voldemort seems like he screws up too much. I wonder if that's deliberate.<p> We know that Harry is the Seventh Horcrux ... which means Nagini was the EIGHT. And in his discussion with Slughorn, Voldemort discusses how seven would be powerful. The implicit assumption is that any number fewer (or more) would be less powerful than seven. Therefore, the whole reason Voldemort is defeatable is because he didn't realize he had already made seven horcruxes.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:38 a.m. CST

    Thanks,

    by Lost Prophet

    I had a feeling order was, but wasn't sure about Goblet. <p>The point still stands. This will be fucking hard to adapt as a children's film.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:41 a.m. CST

    Hang on Chrth (SPOILERS)

    by Lost Prophet

    you're counting wrong. Nagini, The diamada, Harry, The cup, the locket, the diary, only 7 (unless I am missing one), or are you including the bit of his soul he still has? either way- harry was an accident. He didn't do it on purpose. Either way, with the diary destroyed he would still have 7. It's confusing me.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:42 a.m. CST

    Voldemort himself counts

    by chrth

    And it's about splitting the soul, not the number of Horcruxes. Even though the diary is destroyed, that doesn't reduce the number of splits. So Voldemort has accidentally split his soul into 8 pieces instead of 7.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:44 a.m. CST

    I'm A Fucking Genius...

    by micturatingbenjamin

    I knew Snape was a good guy. Mainly because he was a good guy from the get-fucking-go, from the first book. This book was my favorite of the series. However, it does stand that Ms. Rowling is a fucking heartless woman, she quickly and mercilessly kills. SPOILERS BELOW: <p><p><p>The two deaths that hurt me most were Fred and Creevy. The little kid who idolizes Potter. Man, that was fucked up. Fucking killing Dobby?! WHAT THE FUCK? Why did I care?! You sure as fuck wouldn't see me getting weepy over Jar Jar. Damn. This was a good book.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:45 a.m. CST

    that makes him a fuck up then

    by Lost Prophet

    The twat. No wonder he lost.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:46 a.m. CST

    Horcruxes

    by Baltimoron

    SPOILERS <p> 1 - Ring <p> 2 - Locket <p> 3 - Diary <p> 4 - Hufflepuff Cup <p> 5 - Ravenclaw Crown <p> 6 - Nagini <p> 7 - Harry <p> I didn't miss one, did I?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:47 a.m. CST

    Baltimoron: No, those are all the horcruxes, BUT

    by chrth

    Again, it's the splitting of the soul. Voldemort himself counts as a split. So his soul was split into 8 pieces, rather than 7.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:49 a.m. CST

    Sorry, I used inconsistent language

    by chrth

    When discussing Horcruxes, I sometimes include Voldy as a Horcrux, even though that's not technically true.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:49 a.m. CST

    yes- chrth pointed it out

    by Lost Prophet

    It is 7 splits not 7 horcruxes. so They are:<p>1) Voldemort<p>2) Ring <p>3) Locket<p> Diary <p>5)Cup<p>6) Crown<p>7) Nagini<p>8) Harry<p>

  • July 23, 2007, 8:50 a.m. CST

    Speaking of the Dark Tower comparison

    by chrth

    Did Snape's SPOILER Death remind any of Flagg's SPOILER Death in Book 7?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:51 a.m. CST

    drturing: I'm not saying that's the only reason

    by chrth

    His arrogance is a major factor. But he doesn't seem all there (even going back to OOTP). I blame the soul-splitting.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:52 a.m. CST

    there's a series that died a death

    by Lost Prophet

    I couldn't even finish book 6. Once he had written himself in to it I nearly puked.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:52 a.m. CST

    drturing and Fight Club

    by micturatingbenjamin

    You know what I think the message of Fight Club is? 'Hey, watch, I could put a message out there that says: We are killing ourselves for something that is nigh unattainable...REVOLUTION NOW!..and watch how it gets whored out! Nothing is sacred.' Fight Club, for its message is not dull or middle of the road. Palhaniuk is stylish, and stylized, but not dull. Haunted is a good novel, and he does things in there that are quite good. Rant is simply astoundingly good.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:52 a.m. CST

    Infiltration scenes...

    by Dolph

    I see what you're saying. I guess I'm really counting Ministry and Gringotts as the big ones, with lot's of planning, map-making, spying (can't wait to see that on screen). Both of those are pretty superb I think, the climax to Gringotts particularly epic.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:54 a.m. CST

    we duel to KILL

    by CherryValance

    that's what McGonagall said, so I think they used whatever curse necessary. But I think they didn't get into the unforgiveable curses until they saw the dead body of Harry Potter. That brought the realization down onto the good guys that they just needed to finish it once and for all. So when Neville took up the sword, it was on. </p> I thought this book was amazing. I started crying when Harry left the Dursleys. And by the end I couldn't even see the last page, because knowing it was the last page, I couldn't blink the tears away fast enough.</p> I thought the story was absolutely perfect. I thought I would be upset if Snape went back to being good but that was handled so well. And I totally agree that his last moment with "Potter" was a "see me" moment. I mean deep down he probably wished Harry was his all that time. He could have been with the black hair and Lily's green eyes. </p> The battle of Hogwarts. They have to get a master director for this movie. I'm sorry none of the directors they've had so far is good enough to do that sequence. Reading it, it was already the best battle ever. At one point deep in the battle, I'm not kidding, I suddenly for no explainable reason had an image flash in my mind of Han, Leia, Chewie, and Luke running around the original Death Star. It was the weirdest thing. But I realized that that happened because I felt the same about these characters as I did for them and I was swept up with them in the halls of Hogwarts in the exact same way. I was a little surprised by that. I knew I liked them but I didn't know I loved them until that happened. </p> After reading the book, I felt really bad. I can't reconcile this world and the phenomenon of Harry Potter. Because to me the battle between good and evil has always been the most important thing, not just in fiction but in life too. And I always felt that there was a relatively small band of geeks who agreed with me. But the idea the so many people love these books at this point in time confuses me. How can that be if when I go out into the real world your average person seems to be at the very least sucky, but more often than not evil? Are all these Potter fans just posers or have I gotten it all competely wrong?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:55 a.m. CST

    Drturing

    by Lost Prophet

    sorry, man, His Dark Materials is not worthy of comparison- for a start it is a sight shorter and contains the worst book of either series. Also, you're spot on the accident thing is explicitly stated.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:55 a.m. CST

    The infiltration scenes themselves weren't bad

    by chrth

    It's just when taken all together it's too repetitive. The monotony of camping between the scenes just highlights the repetition.

  • July 23, 2007, 9 a.m. CST

    Oustanding work!

    by theoneofblood

    One of the best conclusions to an epic fantasy series I've ever read. Way more satisfying than the weak sauce the Dark Tower offered, or the eternal hell Robert Jordan is subjecting his readership to. <p> I really liked how tight the narrative of this one was, particularly compared with the bloated weight of GOF and OOTP. Voldemort truly is an evil motherfucker and it's great that we really got a chance to see him go balls out. <p> I will admit that the epilogue was cheesy and bit unneeded. (We already know that Ron and Hermione are destined to be together, ditto Ginny and Harry.) That said, seeing as she went for it I really would have liked to have known what happened to Luna! I'd always imagined she'd end up with Neville, but then he just ends up some dozy professor. Damn you JK! <p> But I'm splitting hairs, overall the book was great, bloody and way darker than anything I could previously imagine a children's author pulling off. (Snake in an old lady!)

  • July 23, 2007, 9:04 a.m. CST

    Does it bother anyone else that in the end Snape

    by ExcaliburFfolkes

    ...was little more than Lily's eternally pussywhipped bitch? (And especially pathetic in that he never came close to getting Lily anyway.) It seemed an awfully big comedown after the wonderful set-up he got in the first six books.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:05 a.m. CST

    "Disorientated"...who edited this thing?

    by all

    I loved the story but thought the book needed drastic re-structuring and editing. I felt like I was being told the story by a teen-aged girl who badly had to pee.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:09 a.m. CST

    I don't particularly feel a need to argue this again

    by Lost Prophet

    but I struggle to think of a more overrated trilogy than HDM. Especially the awful, trite, smug third book of the series, with it's pointless digressions, cod philosophy etc. It's a shame really because I am not religious and find myslef stuck in the same group as them when arguing about that trilogy. <p>I'm not saying that either series is perfect, but of the two HP is (in my opinion)superior.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:09 a.m. CST

    Simply get Cuaron back

    by Dolph

    ...for the last movie. The extended scenes where characters are disguised as other people will be a problem...I guess they'll either have to do it "Quantam Leap" style or change those scenes to utilise a differen potions. You'll lose all tension/emotion with those scenes otherwise.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:10 a.m. CST

    Also- on HDM and HP

    by Lost Prophet

    both series are hugely derivative. Sorry, forgot to state that in the last post.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:12 a.m. CST

    Thoughts about the book and future movie

    by tiredpm

    Okay, I'm going to do the film first. They could split it into 2 because you know the WB isn't going to want to give up this cash cow without a fight. However, they would have to throw money at all the principals to come back for an eighth flick and there's a pretty good chance Rowling would have a veto on the idea: seven books, seven films, the series loses power if it becomes eight. :-)<p>As for the book, it's something to talk about when I'm moved to tears at the death of characters I hated (Dobby) and barely cared about (Moody, Tonks, Creevy), just as I laugh and yell in triumph and delight when Mrs Weasley enters the fray, McGonagall steps up and Ron comes back to his friends.<p>The series is a tremendous accomplishment. But you know what I love as much as any of this? That Rowling didn't try and correct the mistake she made in Book 4 with the parents coming out in the wrong order -- I was expecting to find that James survived the curse long enough to do something to save Harry. When that didn't happen I was delighted that the origin remained unchanged and there was just a mistake. Just a fantastic book and a great conclusion.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:15 a.m. CST

    tiredpm: she did fix it

    by chrth

    In the paperback version of GOF, the parents come out in the correct order. It's only wrong in the hardcover.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:16 a.m. CST

    Don't care either way about the mistake

    by Lost Prophet

    does it make a certain print run of the hardback more valuable?

  • July 23, 2007, 9:17 a.m. CST

    LP: No, way too many copies were printed

    by chrth

    I don't think it was corrected in the hardcover at all (unless the currently available hardcovers have it fixed).

  • July 23, 2007, 9:20 a.m. CST

    JKR is to writing what Lucas was to mives in 1977...

    by spud mcspud

    ...That last book is EVERYTHING we fans wanted out of this series. It is effing awesome in every respect.<P> Had JK Rowling written the Star Wars Prequels, we'd have had a new trilogy to rival the old. She's THAT effing good.<P> Spielberg, Lucas, Carpenter - read these books and realise what 21st century writing is REALLY about. She is absolutely exceptional.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:20 a.m. CST

    Snape's arc

    by tiredpm

    I actually adored that Snape never redeemed himself for all to witness. I was expecting him to stand for Harry and take on Voldemort and when that didn't happen I was stunned. But then Harry's viewing of his memories, to see what Snape lost, so see what he gave up and what he did to atone...blew me away.<p>I thik Snape might actually be the greatest triumph in the series, Rowling created a character that was so morally murky the reader did not know where he would end. I wanted Snape to die a horrible death at the beginning of the book, was convinced he would be the hero when I started thinking he had the Elder Wand, was satisfied when he died (especially in such a gruesome manner) and was then devastated to learn the truth.<p>That's why the epilogue is so powerful for me -- Snape's redemption, forgiveness and eternal tribute at the hands of the son of the woman he loved and lost.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:21 a.m. CST

    shame

    by Lost Prophet

    I've got one of the mistake ones. pah.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:21 a.m. CST

    The only reason Snape

    by CherryValance

    didn't get Lily was because of the Sorting Hat. That sort of thing happens all the time. My high school had four houses just like Hogwarts. The friends you had from junior high or even grammar school who didn't end up in the same house as you just kinda faded into the background over time. It's just how it works out. Poor Snape. It wasn't a letdown because it shows how faithful he was which was the real question about him all along. And according to Harry Potter he was the bravest wizard ever. I think in the end Snape turned out to be pretty badass.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:21 a.m. CST

    If done properly, this film should be a hard "R"

    by Kentucky Colonel

    But that will never happen. I've never read a book faster in my whole life. The wife & I both picked up our own copies...no way in hell were we going to take yurns with chapters like HBP. <p> I agree that it got a bit bogged down in the middle. The Lovegood home section should be cut for the movie, as should 4/5ths ot the trapsing about in the woods. There was not nearly enough Luna in the book, which is a shame because the wonderful young woman playing Luna in the films is so spot on...I'm completley taken in by her. I alos agree that the two wand guys had names that were far too similar, but hey, at least they weren't named Jar Jar or Naboo or Windu. <p> Each and every death hit home. I'm so glad they did off so many people, though. In a war, people die. Nice people. Moms & Dads. Little children. Even animals (owl offing...who'd a-thunk it?). <p> And love those sly stabs at GWBush. Has anyone else seen the "Republicans for Voldermort" bumperstickers...and if so...where can I get one? <p> I agree the epiloge was a bit short, but who is to say that she might ---MIGHT--- return to the world of Hogwarts one day? How cool would it be to follow Harry's kids? Or maybe Teddy becomes the next Chosen one? Or Ginny leaves Harry to work in a Go-Go club? THAT I'd like to see! <p> My only request for the last two movie adaptations....a little titty!

  • July 23, 2007, 9:23 a.m. CST

    Thanks Chrth....

    by meCPS

    for explaining a plot point that I could not figure our regarding the true ownership of the Elder Wand. I couldn't figure how Harry had reasoned that Draco was the wand's owner (after Dumbledore) because I had forgotten that Draco had Disarmed Dumbledore before he was killed. Now I can accept how that final nail in Voldemort's coffin makes sense. Although, as Harry pointed out, the thing that really made it possible for Voldemort to overlook that little twist was that he was just couldn't comprehend that Snape was so desperately in love with Harry's mother that he never even suspected that Snape was operating on Dumbledore's orders instead of his.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:23 a.m. CST

    tiredpm: totally agree about Snape

    by chrth

    That one chapter was heartwrenching. Although the first memory reminded me of this line from Dr. Katz:<p> "When I was younger I was shy around women. Nowadays we call it stalking."

  • July 23, 2007, 9:23 a.m. CST

    chrth: Really?!?

    by tiredpm

    I never knew that it was corrected in the paperbacks. I'm gob-smacked by that, did they ever make a deal of that publicly or was it just quietly amended?<p>You know, it's terribly sad when I'm thinking about going to a book store now and checking out a paperback to read that sequence again...

  • July 23, 2007, 9:25 a.m. CST

    sorry but overall I was not

    by lionbiu

    sorry but overall I was not impressed, it dragged in the middle and it got very repetetive with the constant disguises and break-ins. It did pick up at the end, but it wrapped up far to neatly for me to enjoy. Annoying scenes ripped out of movies and dodgy exposition scenes. Overal 5/10

  • July 23, 2007, 9:26 a.m. CST

    tiredpm: When the book came out, there was a brouhaha

    by chrth

    I don't recall for sure, but I think JKR publicly stated it was a mistake. I don't remember it being publicly mentioned that it was fixed in the paperback, but I did notice it when I read it.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:27 a.m. CST

    drturing: I agree, it had to be Lily

    by tiredpm

    That was why I was dreading a Hail Mary from Rowling to explain why the parents came out in the wrong order in GoF. I much prefer the idea that Lily's love saved Harry, not some random spell or curse with a dying breath from James.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:30 a.m. CST

    quint & mori

    by jedimindflayer

    interesting point about starwars; when i started in with deathly hallows, it occured to me that the hp books are the new generations starwars- resistance over an oppressive empire, a tragic villian that attempts to 'fix' his past by dominating the present, a hero that shares a bond with the villian, not to mention the morality that the two of you alluded to... the list could go on and on. thanks for your insights on book 7!

  • July 23, 2007, 9:30 a.m. CST

    cherry

    by Lost Prophet

    that's plain wrong. The sorting hat adapts to the choices of the person being sorted- He chose slytherin. This actually fits better into the books as the choices made by the characters always have consequences. I think in book 2 dumbledore explicitly states that you are defined by your choices

  • July 23, 2007, 9:33 a.m. CST

    TFD: Yes, yes it does.

    by chrth

    You would approve.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:40 a.m. CST

    Like someone else said...

    by Kal-L

    I was really surprised to find out how much I cared about this universe while I read this book, especially by my reactions during the final battle. I was sincerely touched by Percy's return. I was devastated by Fred's death. I laughed out loud at the image of Neville running through the battle in earmuffs, potted mandrakes in tow, and again at the image of Trelawney using crystal balls as cannon balls. Great, great stuff all around. These books, warts and all, hit a certain core truth that energized a generation of kids and attracted a generation of adults who can still understand what it feels like to be a kid. Rowling has been more than compensated for her work on these books, but dammit, she earned it. Fine work.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:46 a.m. CST

    Just want to say I am enjoying everyone's thoughts

    by HeWhoCannotBeNamed

    and I always love a little sprinkling of TFD

  • July 23, 2007, 9:52 a.m. CST

    Rita Skeeter and Umbridge

    by Baltimoron

    I so wish they got what they deserved.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:52 a.m. CST

    This book makes Harry Potter classic Christian allegory

    by KnightShift

    As of this weekend there are a LOT of Christians who owe J.K. Rowling a huge apology. For ten years these people have screamed about how the Harry Potter books are evil, promoting witchcraft, pro-Satanism etc. and how their author was essentially a tool of the devil. You have to understand that these are people who are secretly HAPPY that there is something they can come out and lash out against because this kind of hatred gives them a rush, even though it's not Christ-like at all. Well, these people are now known now and forever as idiots because J.K. Rowling with Deathly Hallows has firmly established Harry Potter as a BRILLIANT Christian allegorical tale, as classic as The Chronicles of Narnia or I would even say The Lord of the Rings (even though Tolkien claimed that was never allegory). The Christian elements were all over this book, from the verses of scripture that Harry and Hermione find on the tombstones in Godric's Hollow, to the title of the next-to-last chapter: "King's Cross" and it has nothing to do with the name of the train station (and there were a lot more things that just those in this book too). Am I a ticked-off Christian for how some of my fellows have treated these books and their author over the years? Heck yeah I am, because J.K. Rowling has done more to spread the gospel with these books than anything that Pat Robertson or James Dobson has *ever* done. And it's about time that she - and Harry Potter - get the appreciation that's due them from some quarters.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:54 a.m. CST

    KnightShift: Good points, but ...

    by chrth

    You probably just opened a can of worms.<p> I did like how Harry died to protect everyone, that was a great trick.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:59 a.m. CST

    ZS: This will shock you, but I agree with you!

    by chrth

    Emo Potter in Book 5 really started to grate on me. If it wasn't for all the stuff with Dumbledore's Army, the book would've been a complete choke job in my opinion. Book 6 didn't bother me as much because Harry was less Emo (and I didn't mind all the teen love affairs because it resulted in some funny sequences)

  • July 23, 2007, 10 a.m. CST

    I plan to read this at some stage

    by emeraldboy

    I have read them all and despite my argument she needed an editor. These books are totemic and like Frank Vincent said about david Chase, there wont be another David Chase for a very long time. Its also a bit like the early QT. Everything that followed after Pulp fiction and Resevior dogs was a pale imitation. We wont see any book to match the harry potter Magnum opus for a long time to come. I will miss the sweets. Those wonderful sweets.

  • July 23, 2007, 10 a.m. CST

    Plot Holes

    by Randall Flagg

    It seems nobody's touched on these yet. Two big holes that annoyed me - the idea of the Trace contradicts what we know about the enforcement of the restrictions for underage magic. If the trace had existed in book 2, the Ministry would have known it was Dobby, and not Harry, that performed the hover charm at the Dursley's. Also, after Kreacher drinks the potion, it specifically mentions that Voldemort had to refill it. So... who refilled it after Regulus drank it?

  • July 23, 2007, 10:01 a.m. CST

    yup, I agree with ZS as well

    by Lost Prophet

    OoTP was mired in crap. But at least she admitted to being blocked.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:03 a.m. CST

    If you lost interest around

    by lionbiu

    If you lost interest around book 5 than there is no point of reading HP7 because it follows the route of HP5. Its not a bad book its just the story is kinda weak and it could have done with some serious editing

  • July 23, 2007, 10:04 a.m. CST

    I can explain the trace-

    by Lost Prophet

    The trace triggers when Magic is done by/ near an underage wizard. With the disregard they show for house elves it is highly plausible that they would assume an underage wizard cast the charm and not an elf. <p>you've got me with the magic refilling goblet though.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:04 a.m. CST

    Harry Snotter...

    by Grrrr....

    ...sucks!!! HARD!!!! And by the way, TRANSFORMERS only opened in darkest Africa this Friday so couldn't talk with but f$%k the haters! Ha, ha, ha you were wrong, the movie rocked!!! Loved the flames!

  • July 23, 2007, 10:04 a.m. CST

    bullshit Lionbiu

    by Lost Prophet

    It's streets ahead of book 5

  • July 23, 2007, 10:06 a.m. CST

    That is what I do

    by emeraldboy

    I wait for a book to come out in paperback. Who in the UK and Ireland, thinks the Asda and Tesco think is unfair. Selling the books at 12.99. Sounds a bit dodgy to me.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:07 a.m. CST

    The magically refilling potion

    by KnightShift

    That one caught my attention too. The only plausible explanation I can come up with is that it's... magically refilling? (crickets chirping)

  • July 23, 2007, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Actually Emeraldtool

    by Lost Prophet

    It only cost £8 in Sainsbury's. Personally, I think if they want to sell at a loss fucking let them. We get it in the arse as consumers in so many different ways that it is nice to benefit for a change. There is nothing unfair about it

  • July 23, 2007, 10:10 a.m. CST

    Magical Refilling Potion

    by chrth

    I think Voldemort was just testing it the first time, so he didn't make the enchantment a recurring one. It was after he deemed it sufficient that he made it recurring. That'd be my workaround for the problem.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:11 a.m. CST

    ZS, don't blame her publisher for the lengths.

    by ExcaliburFfolkes

    They are the ones who held Rowling in check and got her to edit down the first three books into appropriate sizes, until starting with GOF when she had enough clout to veto them and write the as books long as she felt like.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:12 a.m. CST

    Also, it would take a brave editor

    by Lost Prophet

    to tell JK Rowling that she was writing waffle.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:13 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet...

    by Randall Flagg

    That's how it was explained in previous books, to be sure; it's one of the reasons they didn't believe him at his trial. Harry once asked how they can enforce that law at houses with both adult & underage wizards, and I believe it was Arthur Weasley who explained that they just have to hope that the parents will enforce the law. But the trace is explained, as I understand it, being within each underage wizard, and sets off a warning at the Ministry specifically for that wizard.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:14 a.m. CST

    Potion

    by phantoquashi

    Maybe Kreacher refilled it after Regulus drank it? After all, so little is made explicit of the house-elves powers that we, like most of the wizards, are completely ignorant of what they are capable... or the recurring enchantment works too.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:15 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet

    by lionbiu

    Its better than book 5, but not by much. It followed the same pattern. Intriguing first chapter, dull and repetetive middle chapters and action packed last 5 chapters. Its a fitting conclusion, but its hardly great literature. Its fine but I was dissapiinted. The story just seemed to go nowhere and when it reached it's conclusion it just became predictable. But it will look great on the big screen

  • July 23, 2007, 10:16 a.m. CST

    The explanation still works though

    by Lost Prophet

    as it is a trace to detect magic, not to detect who'se casting it- so although a spell "on" each underage wizard it is an alarm that detects magic done, not the actual caster.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:18 a.m. CST

    sorry lionbiu

    by Lost Prophet

    I was really not a fan of book 5 (especially EMO twatboy Harry)- and although this one is also weighty, (and harry certainly has his stupid moments) it either actually is (but certainly feels) less heavy. I do agree about the sag in the middle, but really it pisses on book 5.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:18 a.m. CST

    If that were true....

    by Randall Flagg

    nothing would have happened in Chamber of Secrets, because Dobby would not have had a trace on him....

  • July 23, 2007, 10:20 a.m. CST

    There's also a difference with Dobby casting the spell

    by chrth

    Remember, House Elf (and Goblin) magic is different from Wizards' magic, thus House Elfs can Apparate within Hogwarts. I imagine that if a Wizard had cast a spell, Harry would not have been 'caught'

  • July 23, 2007, 10:21 a.m. CST

    drturing

    by CherryValance

    I wasn't really thinking of strictly good or strictly evil. I do know that lots people struggle with an internal battle of varying degrees but right now, more than ever, I believe that most people are losing, because they're not even fighting. They've let themselves off the hook. That's why I don't get the phenomenon. If so many believe in the battle, then why are they all standing down? If you love books/movies like this and understand the difference between good and evil and how important it is, you won't go into work and treat your underlings (house elves) like crap, you won't beat your kids (Gaunt/Snape's dad), you won't do drugs or any other soul destroying behavior (Voldemort), if you should desert your friends, you'll quickly rectify the situation (Ron/Han), etc. In reality it's not as complicated and difficult to be good as we might like to believe. But anyway, back to the book...</p> lost prophet, you're right about choices/consequences. He definitely wanted Slytherin.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:22 a.m. CST

    not true Flagg

    by Lost Prophet

    the spell was cast in very close proximity to Harry in an area with no known magical entities. therefore the alarm would go off and it would be assumed that Harry did the magic.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:23 a.m. CST

    Be careful Chris Hanson is reading this chat log

    by BringingSexyBack

    I'm glad they cut out the part where Mori is asking Quint his age and if he likes rough sex.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:23 a.m. CST

    Prequel (no not SW!) material in Deathly Hallows

    by KnightShift

    I don't want to see another Harry Potter book about HARRY per se: this book sufficiently wraps up his story that's been told for a decade now. But Deathly Hallows has an ENORMOUS amount of detail that would make for great prequel material. This book finally touches on something that I've been wondering about ever since I read Sorcerer's Stone seven years ago: Grindelwald. It turns out that there was a heck of a lot more to the story of what happened between he and Voldemort. The Nazi-like associations with Grindelwald only made that backstory all the more intriguing (Nurmengard which at first I thought Hermione said "Nuremberg", the "For the Greater Good" at the entrance to Grindelwald's prison that could be an allusion to "Arbeit Macht Frei" at the gates of Auschwitz, the Deathly Hallows sign with hearkens back to the swastika... which was long a symbol of good fortune until Hitler twisted it into something evil). I would love to see a single book devoted to the full tale of Dumbledore and Grindelwald, leading up to their duel in 1945 (how did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald if Grindelwald had the Elder Wand, anyway?). Then there's the First War, which has always haunted Harry's generation at Hogwarts even if they were never a part of it. I've heard there may be a book about Neville and his later years that would potentially fill in a lot more information about the Wizard world post-Voldemort, that Rowling might write and publish for charity (I'm still holding out hope that Arthur Weasley endes up as Minister of Magic). So even if Harry Potter's part in the story is finished, Rowling still has an enormous sandbox to play in, if she ever wants to return to this fictional world.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:24 a.m. CST

    I hope my 29,827 MySpace friends read this book

    by BringingSexyBack

    and realize how important their friendships are to me.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:24 a.m. CST

    Who is curtis hanson?

    by Lost Prophet

    is he the presenter of that paedo entrapment thing?

  • July 23, 2007, 10:25 a.m. CST

    Chris Hanson is the hero in the anti-pedophilia

    by BringingSexyBack

    crackdown. I love that show.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:26 a.m. CST

    That is a truly horrible idea KnightShift

    by Lost Prophet

    No more prequels to anything, ever,

  • July 23, 2007, 10:27 a.m. CST

    Thanks BSB

    by Lost Prophet

    <p>

  • July 23, 2007, 10:28 a.m. CST

    They could have simply increased the power of the trace

    by Frijole

    when the Ministry was overtaken. Honed it. Like actually hacking into someone's computer instead of just doing an IP trace.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:31 a.m. CST

    I think she has to revisit the Wizarding World

    by CherryValance

    It's too massive for her not to go back. Maybe no more Harry, but she has to do something. And even in the case of Harry she left the requisite 19 years between the story and the epilogue.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:31 a.m. CST

    Death Eaters & Voldemort = NeoCons and Cheney

    by BringingSexyBack

    Taking over the Ministry = NeoCons taking the White House. <p>Michael Moore = Harry Potter, Hermione = Hillary Clinton, Ron = Rupert Murdoch.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:32 a.m. CST

    I'll be visiting the WIZARDING WORLD

    by Frijole

    when it opens at Universal's Islands of Adventure in late '09. Huzzah!

  • July 23, 2007, 10:32 a.m. CST

    That is inflammatory ARSE BSB

    by Lost Prophet

    and you know it. I think you missed a few of the usual triggers.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:33 a.m. CST

    Cherry

    by Lost Prophet

    she doesn't have to do anything. Except count her money- she's worth something obscene like £1BILLION, so she isn't exactly going to have to churn out books to pay the bills.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:34 a.m. CST

    Death Eaters & Voldemort = Al Qaeda & Osama Bin Laden

    by BringingSexyBack

    Dick Cheney = Harry Potter, Hermione = George Bush, Ron = Donald Rumsfeld, Prime Minister of Germany = Ginny. Discuss.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:35 a.m. CST

    JK Rowling earned every last penny of that £1BILLION

    by BringingSexyBack

    Unlike Halliburton.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:36 a.m. CST

    "Prime Minister of Germany = Ginny" Heh, nice.

    by chrth

    But let's not go down that route, herm herm?

  • July 23, 2007, 10:37 a.m. CST

    Cherry, does Harry live or die?

    by BringingSexyBack

    I don't like reading, I just want to know what happens.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:37 a.m. CST

    bloody baron's backstory

    by phantoquashi

    though a complete aside, i loved it. i think it's those kinds of little things that make this series what it is just as much as the epic shit. like sir cadogan's charge through the paintings and percy's redemption. genius.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:38 a.m. CST

    On a side note I just saw Bridge to Terabithia

    by BringingSexyBack

    and it's pretty good.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:38 a.m. CST

    I lit up at Percy's return...

    by Frijole

    and couldn't stop smiling until the end of the chapter. Same with Ron and Hermione's kiss.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:39 a.m. CST

    The whole Harry Potter series is kinda cool

    by batzilla

    don't ya think?

  • July 23, 2007, 10:39 a.m. CST

    Fuck this, going home.

    by Lost Prophet

    I wonder how many adults will be guiltily reading this book in the carraige I'm in on the tube. I bet at least 10,

  • July 23, 2007, 10:41 a.m. CST

    Rowling should visit the Talkbacks

    by BringingSexyBack

    It would help sell a few more books.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:41 a.m. CST

    "Deathly Hallows' The worst of the Series, by far.

    by Ringwearer9

    Mind you, I enjoyed the book quite a bit up to about a little over the halfway mark. The characters seemed to be a little cliche, mostly they seemed to be just parodies of themselves, behaving in Hermonie-ish, Harry-ish, Ron-ish ways, but after the first exciting chase scene, I was into the story. I did note that the death of Burbage, the "Muggles Studies" teacher, was a cop-out way of shocking the audience with a death (who the hell remembers Burbage ... only Hermione took that class). I also thought the death of Moody was another cop-out ... Rowling consistently minimized the trauma to the audience as much as possible (the only significant death was of one of the twins, who, after all, had a spare). But I enjoyed the book for quite a while, (the moment with Bathilda Bagshot was quite scary, even though we have to imagine Hermione either stealing a senile old lady's new book as soon as she's out of sight, or pausing to steal it the moment she hears noises that indicates the old lady is attacking harry before she comes to Harry's rescue), but I started to dislike the book right after a rather magical sequence that I enjoyed a lot, when Ron, who had left for no good reason than to show up again in the nick of time, rescues Harry from drowning. I sort of boo'd the book at that point, and from that point on the book went downhill, and the boos got more an more frequent.<p> The biggest problem for me was the seeming abandonment of any complex moral view as built up on "Order of the Phoenix" and "Half Blood Prince". In "Order of the Phoenix" we got a lot of hints that maybe Fred and George weren't quite as good as we thought (they experimented on younger children with toxic and dangerous substances, engaged in blackmail, sold Peruvian Darkness powder to Death Eaters). Hermione, always the moral center of the Trio, was the only person to stand up to Fred and George, and the idea that the two might be compromised, and possibly turn traitor, was ominous. Harry himself showed signs of being vulnerable to the Dark Side. The scene in Dumbledore's office, where Harry smashes everything up, and Dumbledore's understanding is what calms Harry down and saves him from running off on his own in a Voldemorty self-sufficent manner to escape the horror of responsibility for his part in Sirius's death. Harry's father was shown to be a bully in "Half-Blood Prince" and Snape was shown to have been cruelly treated by Harry's father, and Harry, for the first time, managed to see Snape as a human being. But in this final volume, no surprises come. Fred and George are heroes, Snape's motivation to join the good side was based on a childhood and teenage crush on Harry's mom (nothing deeper) and apparently all that stuff about using unforgiveable curses in previous volumes is forgotten. Harry uses them with glee, and apparent lack of consequence to his own goodness. The idea that Snape was saving Harry from tainting his own soul at the end of "Half Blood Prince" is ignored; Harry uses "Imperio" and "Crucio" on people. Or course, he uses it on EVIL people so that just makes it fine! (Amycus was forcing students to use it on eachother, so this makes it Okay for Harry to use it as appropriate punishment).<p> But the story itself is incredibly sloppy, the sloppiest an clumsiest plotting of the entire series (which has never been particularly well thought out). In this last volume Rowling pulls three Major new artifacts our of her ass, the "Deathly Hallows" which are a kind of triple set of Tolkien's "Ring of Power" that the Harry and friends have to prevent Voldemort from acquiring. Out of nowhere, Harry's cloak happens to be one of them, Dumbledore's wand happens to be another, and one final, previously unmentioned artifact, the Resurrection Stone, is a third, and just happens to ALSO be the stone in the Gaunt ring that was also one of Voldy's Horcruxes, what Dumbledore had destroyed in the previous book (and despite being split in the process of destroying the Horcrux inside, the stone retains it's magical resurrection powers). Does anyone believe Rowling planned the appearance of these artifacts from the very first book? She pulled them out of her ass, along with Ron's gift of the "put outer" lighter, which now also has a previously undocumented feature of magically transporting Ron back to the Trio, wherever they are, just in case he should happen to run out on them. (wow, Dumbledore could actually see the future on everything!). <p> I did enjoy the book up to a point. The Trio on the run was moody and intense, though an encounter with a convenient bunch of old school friends, in order to inject some outside information, was a bit strained. However, following the rather magical scene where the Doe Patronus leads Harry to the pool, and Ron magically shows up just in time to save Harry from drowning, annoyed me. Ron leaves just so he can return in the nick of time? Dumbledore's lighter was designed to anticipate Ron's need to return after running out on Harry and Hermione? This wasn't plotting, it was Hacking. And it got worse from that point onwards. Harry and friends get caught and taken to the Malfoy Manor, where, while the henchmen argue over who gets credit, delaying contacting the Dark Lord, conveniently, Harry is shoved in a dungeon, where, instantly, he demands a nail to undo his ropes, and Luna, also imprisoned, says "Sure, have one right here" and the problem is solved. Dobby shows up conveniently, pops out and back in the nick of time, Ron conveniently leaps over some furniture to grab three wands from Draco and uses all three for a triple powerful curse (gee, why didn't Voldemort ever think of trying that trick?) and then Dobby saves them in the nick of time while becoming mortally wounded, a death that is cheaply used to demonstrate how Good Harry is when Harry buries Dobby, and activating the "helpful Goblin watches noble Harry and allows next part of the Horcrux Hunt to continue" part of the so called plot. <p> The latter half of the book is all like this, with the Trio jumping from spot to spot. There's no logic to any of it ... they take a week off after Dobby's death to hang out with Fleur and Bill, with no explanation for why Death Eaters aren't descending from the skies onto Shell Cottage. You'd think the entire Weasely family would have been imprisoned or at least watched round the clock to prevent them helping Harry, but apparently Voldemort makes exceptions for honeymooners! <p> The invasion of Gringott's by Harry and friends was retarded. The vaunted security is bypassed by Harry's use of what was previously called Unforgiveable curse (Imperio) but is now forgiveable because it's Harry, and the deadly threat of live dragons is discovered to be not so threatening because the one dragon they encounter is almost blind (!), and all they have to do to escape is jump on it's back and let it fly them out. The sword of Griffindor, that Dumbldore's put-outer and Snape's Patronus helped Harry acquire in order to destroy Horcruxes, is stolen after one Horcrux is destroyed (and Rowling has to explain it's relative lack of fatal effect by inventing a whole backstory about how Dumbledore, despite knowing the resurrection stone was a Horcrux, and all his lectures about the the dangers of being afraid of death and living in the past, had put this know Horcrux on in order to see his dead sister. This is supposed to explain why it's so easy for Harry and friends to destroy the Horcruxes in this book). Apparently, despite the fact that Dumbledore apparently knew the sword of Gryffindor had been imbued with Horcrux destroying venom, Dumbledore never bothered to collect the Basilisk fangs from the Chamber of Secrets, for future use in destroying Horcruxes, nor bothered to tell Harry what a good idea this would be. It all depends on Ron suddenly being able to imitate Parseltongue and running down there real quick at the last minute. Oh, and apparently all it takes to destroy another Horcrux (the tiara) is to wait for Crabbe to cast a previously unmentioned spell called Fiendfyre, which he's apparently never used before, but conveniently goes out of control and destroys the Horcrux for Harry, as Hermione informs them all after it has already happened. <p> The ending is retarded. Voldemort, despite the fact that the Room of Requirements has been used for centuries to hide things in (and everyone can see everyone else's stuff in it) thought it was the perfect place to hide the Diadem Horcrux. He also, after he finds out that his other Horcruxes have been stolen, and that Harry is in Hogwarts searching for another, decides to, instead of teleporting inside and killing Harry personally, give him two ultimatums, and several hours, to complete his search for the Horcrux. The Nagini-Horcrux is anticlimactically destroyed by Neville with the Sword of Gryffindor, who reprises Harry's trick of summoning it from the Sorting Hat, apparently. The final confrontation between Harry and Voldemort is made nonsensical by the fact that Voldemort, as far as he knows, is mortal, since he knows that most of his Horcruxes are gone, and yet he insists in not only once, but twice trying to kill Harry with the same curse that vanquished him all those years ago, and the final defeat is based on some tortured and flimsy reasoning about what makes one master of a wand. Apparently Harry is master of the Elder wand that Voldemort is holding because, follow this, Draco disarmed Dumbledore of this wand, making Draco the master, even though Draco didn't take the wand, but held on to his own wand! But since Harry stole Draco's wand (not Dubledore's which is now Voldemort's) this makes Harry the master of the Elder wand that Draco didn't bother to even touch! It's gigantically retarded, and an insult to the intelligence of 8 year olds everywhere.<p> The deaths of Wormtail and Snape were very hissable. Wormtail's was incredibly anticlimactic. Strangled by his own silver arm because he hesitated for one second in killing Harry? So if Voldy had just increased the "kill Wormy if he hesitates to kill Harry" timer to 5 seconds Harry would be dead? Awfully convenient for Harry, but incredibly insulting to the reader's intelligence. Snape's death was also incredibly pathetic for such a compelling character. He's killed because Voldy mistakenly thinks he's the true Master of the Elder wand, because Snape killed Dumbledore (which sounds like a better claim than the Draco-disarmed-Dumbledore-but didn't-bother-to-take-his-wand argument). Was anyone truly satisfied by this end for Snape? As with Wormtail, it felt like Rowling was just rushing to get it all over with. Horrible. And the stuff where Snape conveniently lived next door to the Lily Potter as a child, and thus loved her ... it sounded to me like Rowling spent too much time online reading fans' wish lists and decided to just give them what they wanted. <p> Speaking of giving the fans what Rowling thought they wanted, the epilogue was so cliche and fanficcy that when it was leaked on line many were convinced it was a fake being released by the publisher to trick people with false spoilers. It regurgitates elements from the first book and makes them part of the Trio's children; Harry's son Albus Severus (oh my God, she really named Harry's son Albus Severus!) is worried about being in Slytherin, just like Harry was. Harry's red-headed daughter (via Ginny) wants to go to Hogwarts too, even though she's too young, just like Ginny did in the first book. Percy is present, his presence unexplained, acting Percyish by talking about Broomstick regulations. <p> Rowling has been talking a lot recently about how she really wanted to spend more time with her kids, and felt bad about how writing Harry has deprived her kids of her attention. It's a laudable sentiment. Kids are more important that writing a good story. I'm glad they got the extra attention. but the fact remains, this volume is the worst of the series. It's the sloppiest, the most heavily dependent on cliche in portraying the characters, and the most lazy in terms of "pull previously unmentioned or foreshadowed magical toys out of my ass" plotting.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:43 a.m. CST

    I checked out the book at the store yesterday

    by BringingSexyBack

    and noticed it was made from 30% recycled paper and the rest from renewable forests, whatever that means. That's pretty cool.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:44 a.m. CST

    Where can I get the Chinese counterfeit book?

    by BringingSexyBack

    Because that's all I buy anyway.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:44 a.m. CST

    Wow, ringy

    by Lost Prophet

    I can't even be bothered to read that, but no surprise you didn't like it. Do you like anything that doesn't display anorak level obsessive compulsive precision on Tolkein. <p>How did you enjoy the latest plundering of Middle Earth. I heard it wasn't great?

  • July 23, 2007, 10:44 a.m. CST

    also...

    by phantoquashi

    when did everyone first realise that avada kedavra was a twist on abra cadabra, the second bit also sounding like cadaver? i thought it was a pretty cool and dark re-imagining of the spell even though i didn't spot it til re-reading the books before deathly hallows came out. am i stupid? someone tell me i'm not stupid.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:45 a.m. CST

    "Renewable forests"

    by chrth

    They're essentially tree farms (as opposed to wantonly chopping down forests without replanting). Pretty much all paper in the West comes from them.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:46 a.m. CST

    Thanks for the review Ringy

    by BringingSexyBack

    Why can't there be a good guy names Wormtail or Wormtongue? Just to be different, you know?

  • July 23, 2007, 10:46 a.m. CST

    phantoquashi: don't feel bad

    by chrth

    I never realized that Hogwarts was Warthogs switch around until a couple days ago.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:48 a.m. CST

    BSB: Why'd you have to set off ZS? He was so calm

    by chrth

    Tch tch.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:48 a.m. CST

    Phantoquashi

    by BringingSexyBack

    I've never read a Harry Potter book so the first time I heard that spell in the movie I thought it was Abra Cadabra, too. Sounds like a deliberate twist on that spell. Cool stuff, this Rowling's got.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:48 a.m. CST

    I have read some of it now

    by Lost Prophet

    Where the fuck did you get the idea that the twins may turn traitor from? <p>you're talking bollocks. Almost all the criticisms you have can be explained. <p>Now fuck off, put your elf suit on and start frantically booking tickets for the next Tolkein convention.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:49 a.m. CST

    Chrth

    by BringingSexyBack

    Sorry, that's what I do on the Talkbacks - set off political tirades and rehash catchphrases.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:50 a.m. CST

    The Twins turn traitors?!?!

    by BringingSexyBack

    WTF Rowling - now I gotta pick up this book and read dammit.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:51 a.m. CST

    Please STOP comparing with Star Wars

    by Doc_Strange

    Star Wars is the ultimate myth. Nothing can fucking touch it ever. Yeah people say the prequels sucked but no other franchise has made or will make the same amount of money nor have as rich a mythology. Oh yeah and Potter doesn't have the greatest weapon ever in the lightsaber. Plus it doesn't have Vader, it has a guy named Voldemort for chrissakes.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:52 a.m. CST

    BSB: They don't turn traitors

    by chrth

    Ringwearer9 thinks they were set up to be (I disagree fully) and Lost Prophet is (not very nicely) taking him to task over it.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:52 a.m. CST

    they don't BSB

    by Lost Prophet

    It's ringy talking out of his arse. There was never any suggestion that they would

  • July 23, 2007, 10:54 a.m. CST

    my thoughts

    by Bloo

    I've read it once and am about 1/2 way through my 2nd read on it. I loved it, but man like others here there was a lot of fat. Now I've picked up on a copule of things. Remember what Sirius said in OotP, that most of the pure wizerding families were related. And then there is the tale of the 3 brothers. If the 3 wzards who created the Hallows were indeed brothers, and there to me was no suggestion that they weren't, that would make voldemort and harry related. Not father son but definatly related. I thought after Sirus remakrs and then with the tale of the 3 brothers all that would have been mentioned. Riddle came from the Gaunts whose family heirloom, the Ring, was embossed with the mark. Harry's cloak came from his father which was passed from father to son, from the beginning, which makes them possibably related.<P>on another note, I noticed in my 2nd reading of Doge's obit of Dumbeldore he mentions that Dumbledore always fought for "the greater good" which implies either that Dumblodre's perception of the greater good changed but he never changed his saying, his catchphrase, or Doge didn't know Dumblodre as well as he thought he did. It might have been just a sly hint that Rowling put in.<P>I loved the end and would like to see SOMEDAY, maybe 5, 10 years down the line, not the adventures of Albus and james at Hogwarts, but a single filler book, that describes the aftereffects of the Wizard War, there are still Death Eaters that need to be rounded up, Imperius curses to be lifted, Kingsly has got a lot of cleaning up to do, how do harry, Hermione, and Ron get jobs without their NEWTS, weddings of course. I think alot of that can be wrapped up in a book or two.<P>one other thing I thought was coming from book one (and espically after 3) was that the big 3 would learn how to become Animagnus. That's something I think that could have practiced in the woods instead of just wandering around and would have done something different in the infiltration scenes. And we never did get to see Herminone or Harry do the talking Patronous which was brought up then dropped. It's thing slike that that I think JK Rowling could have used an editor for, but that's just me personally.<P>re: the name trace...yeah Harry was stupid for saying it, but my question is, instead of saying "he who cannot be named" couldn't they have switched to calling him "Tom" or "Riddle" would the trace have worked then and it would have made it at least to me, a little more pogniot when harry is taunting him at the end with that name.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:54 a.m. CST

    Death Eaters = NeoCons

    by BringingSexyBack

    Wormtail = Karl Rove, Azkaban = Texas, Ministry = The Capital, Hermione = Ann Coulter in the guise of Elizabeth Hasselbeck using Polyjuice potion. Discuss.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:55 a.m. CST

    Thanks Chrth, Lost Prophet

    by BringingSexyBack

    You just saved me $18.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:56 a.m. CST

    "no other franchise has made or will make the same

    by chrth

    amount of money" ... er, Star Wars isn't even second on the list: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/trilogyww.htm (remove spaces)

  • July 23, 2007, 10:57 a.m. CST

    "no other franchise has made or will make the same

    by Rupee88

    amount of money" ...ever heard of inflation, dumbass? Hundreds of franchises will eventually make more money than Harry Potter.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:57 a.m. CST

    Chrth Re: ringy

    by Lost Prophet

    I was going to go home, but I saw him crawl out from under his bridge and wanted to slap him down. <p>The problem with ringy is that he is the very embodiment of the pisstake definition of a purist: Someone with clearly defined tastes but anorak sensibilities. Therefore unless an adaptation/ creation matches to the fucking tee his vision of what it should be then it is always going to be woefully inadaquete. <p>As such, he is utterly incapable of rational thought (that twins argument being a prime example) and much in the way of a spoilt six year old will resort to putting his hands over his ears and screaming WAAAAAAAAAH. It's a shame, as he does show some sign of intelligence, and amongst that essay there are good points, but it isn't worth digging out. <p>I feel no inclination to reason with him, as it is a complete waste of time to do so- and won't achieve anything anyway.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:58 a.m. CST

    BSB: You could get it from a library

    by chrth

    That's what I did for the previous hardcovers (since I collect the trades). I only bought this one was because there was going to be no way to remain spoiler-free past today.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:59 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet: You didn't have to attempt to reason

    by chrth

    But there's never a reason not to be polite, especially when there was no direct provocation to warrant such a response.

  • July 23, 2007, 11 a.m. CST

    there's been plenty of provocation from him

    by Lost Prophet

    he's got form.

  • July 23, 2007, 11 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet, Fred and George were bastards

    by Ringwearer9

    They deal in illegal and dangerous poisons to make their trick candies, they once tried to make their little brother take and "Unbreakable Vow" when he was little, which would have killed him if he broke it, one of them once turned Ron's teddy bear into a huge spider, traumatizing him for life. I THOUGHT Rowling was hinting that things were not quite right with the twins, but apparently, as long as they support Harry, they are heroes. All that hinting about how apparently bad people might actually be good (and vice versa) was something Rowling either abandoned to please the fans, or never actually meant in the first place. I suspect she never meant it in the first place, despite being convinced by a rather brilliant fan theory that she had something more morally complex up her sleeve.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:01 a.m. CST

    Hey LP looks like you guys got a lot of rain over there

    by BringingSexyBack

    Stay dry dude.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:02 a.m. CST

    thanks for the (undeserved)civil reply ringy-

    by Lost Prophet

    I sort of regret the rant now <p>I'm off home now people

  • July 23, 2007, 11:02 a.m. CST

    yup. Pissing it down

    by Lost Prophet

    where the fuck has summer gone.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:08 a.m. CST

    NO! *SPOILERS*

    by DamnYouMB

    Dumbledore's painting is the traitor! WTH did someone get the idea the twins are the traitors?

  • July 23, 2007, 11:19 a.m. CST

    ringwearer 9, about fred and george

    by phantoquashi

    may be bastards, but they're charming bastards who love their family and friends. i highly doubt they meant to traumatize ron for life, even less to kill him; they're just mischevious kids who don't always think about the consequences, but they're not bad people. also, to say that all jk rowling's hinting that bad people might be good and vice versa was abandoned is ludicrous; snape and dumbledore, arguably the second and third most important characters only to harry, are revealed to be morally far more complex than might have been presumed previously, and then there's the malfoys, and dudley, and petunia, not to mention past revelations regarding sirius and james. oh and there's kreacher. one could even argue a case for voldemort; his evil is not a senseless, inexplicable one... it is one to be pitied, even if it's impossible to forgive.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:22 a.m. CST

    convienances???

    by jonnystevens

    I get that the story is about magic and you have to expect some things to be explained simply by the fact that it's a magical world, but there were some instances where I was really frustrated with Rowling. How is it that Neville pulls Godric's sword out of the sorting hat if Harry and company had already given it away to the goblin?? Bill has this build up as to what would happen if they tried double crossing a goblin, and they mention that goblins have their own magic that wizards do not, and then all of the sudden the goblin just grabs the sword and runs off? wtf. For neville all the sudden to be able to whip it out and kill the snake was too much for me. It was a good book overall I think but i definetly had some misgivings. I didn't like how she handled a lot of the deaths,(Tonks AND Lupin) she just kind of killed them and that was it. Fred was the most sastifying as far as sort of being able to see what happened and how Harry and the Weasley's reacted to it ("I want to KILL deatheaters"). To Kill one of the Marauders "offscreen"?!?!? what? that's crazy. I was bummed that she didn't focus on the hogwarts aspect of this story as well, she sort of just wrote out a lot of the characters in the story. It'd be hard not to with as many as she developed though. My biggest issue with this story was the Deathly Hallows. Why? Were they really necessary? Did they really need another thing to quest for? They played virtually no role in the end other than the the stone being there to help harry face voldy, and the wand issue was sort of how voldermort was put away. But I felt like it was just a distraction. The Horcruxes could have provided and excellent story/quest by themselves. I was also upset by the fact that my biggest question going into the book wasn't ever addressed in the books. Why did Tom Riddle recieve a wand with a tail feather from Dumbeldore's Phoenix? It said that fawkes submitted only 2 feathers for core's ever, and we can assume that Harry's wand picked him because he was Harrypotter/the boy who lived/the chosen one destined to defeat voldy. Ollivander told Dumbledore right after harry got the second wand. Why did fawkes only submit 2 tail feathers and why did Voldermort Just so happend to get one from Dumbledores pet? Oh well. The whole series was a great ride, and solid ending. This last book finished off the series on a good note. As much as i thought Jk could have improved parts, it was by far one of the better books and it closed the series very well. I liked it.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Unforgivable Curses

    by Frijole

    Are monitored by the Ministry. Punishment for their use (without its prior consent... which actually was given to those fighting Voldemort and his followers during his original reign of power)is doled out by the Ministry. When the "good guys" start throwing them around willy nilly 1) it is in fighting Voldemort and his followers so the previous lifting of their "unforgivable" status COULD be implied... and 2) the Ministry has fallen, so there is no one monitoring for or punishing for their use.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:28 a.m. CST

    missed something

    by Hellboy4Prez

    Finished the book this morning and I thought it was great, anice way to finish the series. I think I missed something and now I can't get the book away from my wife. How did Neville end up with the sword of Gryffindor? Isn't that what he killed Nagini with. I thought that evil little goblin had it?

  • July 23, 2007, 11:28 a.m. CST

    jonnystevens

    by phantoquashi

    ...i'd actually forgotten about the fawkes-wands connection being left unexplained... maybe something to do with dumbledore, harry and voldemort being the owners of the deathly hallows, phoenixes being able to resurrect themselves, mastery of death and all that wonderful nonsense? wands choose the wizards... and fawkes seems to have chosen the wands... and dumbledore chose fawkes... so dumbledore's responsible for everything.... i dunno.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:29 a.m. CST

    Spoiler Monkeys

    by manicart1

    Loathsome though they are I think I can understand why people feel compelled to spoil the books for everything else. If everyone in the world seems to like something, and you are unable to like that thing, you feel like a freak. Everyone tries to make you feel like a freak for not liking that thing too-- a good example of this is big brother. I can't stand BB, it's moronic and irritating but everyone I know loves it. Thus, I'm continually being assuged with cries of 'how can you not like this?' or worse 'if you just stopped being so stuck up and gave it a try you might see what all the fuss is about.' This of course drives me apeshit, and makes me even more determined to dislike Big Brother and anyone who watches it. So basically some people are (and not for entirely the wrong reasons) suspicious and even resentful of the herd mentality that overtakes the country every time a new Potter book comes out. I love the Potter books myself, and thoroughly enjoyed Deathly Hallows, but I do find the media feeding frenzy a bit distasteful. It also does an injustice to the book itself which will by now have been surely subject to withering reviews written purely on the basis that the critic doesn't really get it and is pig sick of the bandwagon. Being in a minority isn't really a nice feeling, and inevitably the more you feel excluded from something millions of others love, be it a book or a sport or whatever, the more you'll start to feel bitter towards people who do love it. I've made a prick out of myself by sneering and lambasting people who like football (I can't stand it) purely out of frustration that I'm left out. Theres nothing I can do about that, so I just have to deal with it. Similarly idiots who run up and down queues of people waiting to buy the book reading out the end are acting out of this sense of frustration, but they feel that the fact that they think Harry Potter is crap also makes them feel somehow superior. I suppose theres not much point trying to rationalise this-- some people are just arseholes and this will never ever change. But in an age where literacy levels are dropping it can't be a bad thing when millions of people rush out at once to buy a book.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:30 a.m. CST

    Overall Deathly Hallows Thoughts

    by toshiro-solo

    Some thoughts on HP7 - First of all, it's a satisfying conclusion to the series. I'm a Dark Tower fan too, and Quint and Mori hit it on the head - this ending had a better feel to it than the DK books did, although I thought that DK ended the only way it could. Random thought #1 - perhaps it's just because I've recently re-watched Freaks and Geeks, and love the Weir family, but - it really struck me while reading through HP&TDH just how much the Weasley family is the spoke on which so much of the wheel of these books turns. Seeing Percy return to the fold, and seeing the twins (A) disfugured, and (B) killed really packed a punch. Seeing Mrs. Weasley open up a can of whoop-ass in the name of her kids was pretty great too. Overall, the Weasley model of the loving Wizard family is pretty damn rad. Random thought #2 - Setting the climactic battle at Hogwarts was an awfully good plan. As a location, it's the heart and soul of the series, and that's the only place that would've felt really right to end it. Random thought #3 - This is gonna be a BITCH of a book to film. Lots of time spent in the tent in random places, and not a lot of it that can be cut easily. Random thought #4 - My guess? JK's DONE with this world. There's nothing left that NEEDS to be told, and she'll leave it be. That's simultaneously awesome and sad. Random thought #5 - Have you seen that boxed set of all seven books that Amazon's selling in October? Goddammit! I might have to (re)purchase!

  • July 23, 2007, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Frijole re: Unforgivable curses

    by Bloo

    where does it state that they are mointoed, or who does the monitorin because in OotP, Umbrigde (who so deserved more then just wearing Voldemort's horcrux, there should have been some payoff to that), was willing to use Crucico (a varition of crucifixation, I just picked up on that) on...Harry I believe when she caught them using the Floo network to try and talk to Sirius but got Kreacher

  • July 23, 2007, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Phantoquashi, you are absolutely right.

    by Ringwearer9

    That's exactly what Rowling intended Fred and George to be. As I said, I was convinced against my own better judgement that she had something more up her sleeve involving F&G, but it was never more than what was obvious ... no matter what their flaws they were on Harry's side therefore they were good. It never really got more complicated than that, which ultimately means that Rowling isn't a very complex person. Certainly no sucessor to Tolkien.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:32 a.m. CST

    jonnystevens

    by Frijole

    The sword's physical location doesn't matter if a true Gryffindor needs it for noble purposes (and has the Sorting Hat, apparently). The sword was in Dumbledore's office when it presented itself to Harry in the Chamber of Secrets. And since they never actually GAVE Griphook the sword, then it probably still felt its rightful place was at Hogwarts/ with the Gryffindors and came when needed.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:35 a.m. CST

    tailfeathers

    by jonnystevens

    I feel like that was why Jk added the Deathly Hallows. She didn't want to have to explain all about the wand cores any more. It was much easier just to say hey there's an Elder Wand that will beat any other wand (except in gridewalds case becasue he lost in a duel to dumbledore) and voldemort is going to get it so the twin core priori incantum stuff isnt a factor. but was the twin core stuff just an excuse to save harry's ass in GOF and in the begining of Deathly Hallows? Or what?

  • July 23, 2007, 11:36 a.m. CST

    Im no Harry Potter fan but I was underwhelmed.

    by Cotton McKnight

    I know enough about the series to know the significance of the characters, etc. And let me just say I was underwhelmed when I read the synopsis on Wikipedia. In fact I thought it was a joke at first but I flipped through to the back of the book and it was exactly the way Wikipedia described. Oh well.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:38 a.m. CST

    The Sorting Hat and Gryffindor's Sword

    by Ringwearer9

    First of all, isn't it WAY too convenient that Voldemort just HAPPENED to stick it on Neville's head so that Neville could pull the sword out of it? No one is complaining about that incredibly convenient and lazy bit of plotting?

  • July 23, 2007, 11:39 a.m. CST

    frijole

    by jonnystevens

    I always thought that nobody had found gryffindors sword before chamber of secrets. That it was available to the gryffindors who needed it, but nobody had used it before harry. i don't remember any mention of it in dumbledores office before harry used it.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:39 a.m. CST

    re:Gryfindor's sword and Ringwearer

    by Bloo

    first off re:the sword, it was stated in CoS and also in DH that the Sword was enchanted (I presume) to chose any worthy Gryfindor, I'm assuming that it's magic was more powerful then the Goblin's and went off on it's own will to Neville (a little shade of Fred Saberhagen there) with the Sorting Hatas it's sheath if you will. It shows up when a worthy Grfyendor is in need of it.<P>Ringwear, I think anyone who claims that Rowling is the next Tolin or worthy of Tolkin's mantle is mistaken, she is much more akin to CS Lewis or Lloyd Alexander who heavily borowed from other sources and mythologies to create their own world and mythology. There are definatly some original stuff there (more so in Lewis then in Alexander or Rowling) but also is heavily borrowed. I found a book in my local library that traces everywhere and every legand that Rowling borrows from. It's a very apologetic book, saying how literary Rowling is for using Sphixes and chimera's and Avda Kedvra as a varation fo abracadbra, but still it's widly recognized.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:40 a.m. CST

    Molly so AKs Bellatrix, because just before, it says..

    by Jugs

    ..they were dueling to kill. And who loved Minevra charging the bad guys with a bunch of galloping desks!!

  • July 23, 2007, 11:42 a.m. CST

    ringwearer 9

    by phantoquashi

    so we agree on the characters, but i have to take issue with your statement that this means rowling isn't a very complex person... these books aren't meant to be realistic. they're also kids' books, though i'm not saying those two things are always mutually inclusive. these books are about love and death, and learning to reconcile an existence that contains both. harry potter is a kid's book, the very kind of tale about which voldemort would be dismissive and ignorant, and this is entirely the cause of his downfall. to dismiss the harry potter books as kid's books is just as much a mistake as to judge them on other, more philosophically and intellectually minded measures of a story's worth. that's not what they're trying to do. they're not trying to be complex, jk rowling doesn't wish to be cleverer-than-thou.... which, ironically, makes her point wiser, and more complex, than most.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:47 a.m. CST

    You may be right jonny... And Ringwearer...

    by Frijole

    I'll have to go back and look. However, that doesn't diminish that it WILL present itself to a "true Gryffindor" via the Sorting Hat (which is, I guess, the barometer of someone's true place/allegiance) when needed regardless of its physical location at the time. And yes, Ringwearer it IS a convenience that Neville has the hat at that time, but its no more glaring than any number of conveniences in all of fiction. And you're a tool if you think that the twins not bending to your idea of "complexity" makes for a slight on Rowlings skills as a storyteller. There are half a dozen MAJOR characters shown to be the opposite of "black and white" and with limitless depth in their histories and personalities- just because the twins aren't in that group means NOTHING.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:49 a.m. CST

    on reflection

    by Bloo

    I think that each writer brings their own perspective into things. Tolkin was talking about destinity and how we are each destined to do something with our lives. Lewis was working with his power of myth to transform lives and the innocence of childhood. it's been awhile since I read Prydian but I belive it also deals iwth destinity. Where as Rowling has chosen to deal with the power of choice and how we all have a choice to make in our lives and what we do with our lives.<P>one area that I feel Rowling could go with if she ever chooses to delve into this world again is the larger scale of the world she has created. She tried in GoF and I thought she was going to go there, but everything reamins so very british. And if Voldemort was so powerful, why couldn't his DeathEaters go to Australia to track hermione down or her parents, why isn't there a larger threat to the entire Wizerding World not just Britian?

  • July 23, 2007, 11:51 a.m. CST

    Ron and Harry Double-team Hermoine

    by sott68

    No further comments necessary.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:51 a.m. CST

    Bloo- Unforgivable Curses

    by Frijole

    I'll have to find where it says that Crouch Sr. lifted the Ministry's ban on unforgivable curses, when used against Voldemort and his supporters back when Harry's parents were around, but its in there somewhere. And if the Ministry have the power to lift a ban on them, then it stands to reason that they are the ones that banned them in the first place. As for Umbridge... she was given absolute power at Hogwarts by Fudge, so it seems as though she'd be able to get around getting nicked for something like that- I believe there is even dialogue on her part that points that out. Hell, maybe I'm wrong.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:53 a.m. CST

    off topic but in a way cool news....

    by emeraldboy

    even though 24 hours is pretty dead and buried at that this stage. Fox has announced that Cherry Jones is to portray 24's first female president. Cool. she is a great actress.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:55 a.m. CST

    bloo

    by phantoquashi

    i thought about that international wizardry thing too... though grindelwald etc is touched upon, there is still so much left unsaid... i'd imagine that each country has it's own ministry and for voldemort to try and take over elsewhere would be akin to hitler's attempt at building a german empire... the rest of the wizarding world would get involved and things would get even nastier... who knows though, maybe that was his plan after taking over britain? or maybe australian wizards are seriously badass, so it's best to stay away from them and their crazy, antipodean powers.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:56 a.m. CST

    Frijole

    by Bloo

    You're right about Barty Crouch Sr and the curses, I had forgotton that. I belive Umbridge said something like "what Fudge doesn't know what hurt him" as she prepares to Crucio Harry, There also seemed to be no consequences when Barty Crouch Jr as Mad Eye was throwing Unforgivable curses around, sure they were mostly direted at spiders and such but still...

  • July 23, 2007, 11:58 a.m. CST

    No one ever said Rowling's strength was in total

    by Frijole

    originality. Her strength is the believabilty of the journey (physical and internal) of her characters... as seen through a world that seamlessly blends the archetypes of nearly ALL genres and styles of fiction. From Dickens to Tolkein, Homer to Doyle.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:58 a.m. CST

    Phantosquashi, I'm afraid it means Rowling is immoral.

    by Ringwearer9

    All throughout the series she's demonstrated a rather warped sense of humor, involving pain for main characters and other sentient creatures. The "de-gnoming" of the Weasely's garden, the gnome Fred & George put on top of the Christmas Tree, the various gruesome sufferings that people go through due to magical, and physical, accidents. Rowling is a bit of a sadist, and her sadism is not there to make any point, it's there because she thinks it's funny. She thinks Fred and George are funny. She thinks it was funny that Ron's Teddy Bear got turned into a Spider. Now, in Order of the Phoenix I got the sense she was starting to reveal a previously hidden disapproval for F&G, and for Harry's appreciation for F&G despite their rather cruel behavior (including their tendency to bait Muggles, which had been hinted was a good sign of Dark Side behavior). Now, I can only conclude that Rowling started raising doubt about F&G, and brought up Hermione's concern for other magical beings (the House Elves) as a response to concern from readers about the cruelty in her books. But even in Order of the Phoenix I got the idea that Hermione's concern for the House Elves was just a big joke on Hermione. Her efforts got nowhere, and really had no payoff in the final volume. House elves just LIKE being servants! Nothing more complicated than that! Nothing deeper! Despite the rather poor moral lesson being taught children. Some people just LIKE being ... whatever simplistic label one might happen to slap on them.

  • July 23, 2007, noon CST

    phantoquashi

    by Bloo

    LOL, note to self, don't mess with Australian wizards<P>but yeah it seemed like Rowling was building up Voldemort as this hitler type who was trying to ttake over the entire world, but aside from Fluer and Madame Maxime (where was she by the way) and mentions of Grindwalds and Durmstrang (Germany perhaps, or Norway, I always got the impression it was a Norwegian school) and mentions here and there of like America in GoF and etc that there would have been more international cooperation in fight big V

  • July 23, 2007, 12:01 p.m. CST

    Yeah Bloo...

    by Frijole

    I think that is more a point of question. Moody/Crouch, I mean. But at the time, no one seemed to think it was totally foreign, just highly improper. Perhaps teachers are given some sort of leeway in the course of their lessons. Who knows? So it probably IS a hole, but not one I particularly need to have filled.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:05 p.m. CST

    Speaking of Spoilers, anyone see today's Woot?

    by chrth

    <nt>

  • July 23, 2007, 12:06 p.m. CST

    Her mothers death effected her very badly

    by emeraldboy

    She said in one of her rare interviews, a couple of years of ago, that these books have helped her come to terms with her mothers death. JK rowling's mother had MS. and she is now patron of the UK MS. And Stanley Tucci has joined the cast of the Lovely bones he is to play the killer. IM there.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:08 p.m. CST

    Her mothers death effected her very badly

    by emeraldboy

    She said in one of her rare interviews, a couple of years of ago, that these books have helped her come to terms with her mothers death. JK rowling's mother had MS. and JK Rowling is now patron of the UK MS. And Stanley Tucci has joined the cast of the Lovely bones he is to play the killer. IM there.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:10 p.m. CST

    Questions that demand answer!!!

    by PerseuEvans

    1- Was Dumbledore's sister really raped? 2- What was the baby creature in the King's Cross chapter?

  • July 23, 2007, 12:11 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9: Sadism IS Funny

    by chrth

    As long as it's not happening to oneself. Schadenfreude: Making everyone else feel glad that they're not you.<p> I think you're being unfair to Ms. Rowling. She didn't set out to write the bible here (although Harry Potter did die to protect everyone ... hmmm); they are children's books. They're supposed to have laughs. And yes, they come at other people's expense. But so what? The Simpsons have been doing that for the last 15 years. Meet the Parents (probably the most uncomfortable movie I've ever sat through) made something like $200 million.<p> Plus Thorin and Co had no problem causing Bilbo duress by threatening to destroy the plates.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:12 p.m. CST

    and finally Matthew Goode is

    by emeraldboy

    Ozymandius in watchmen!

  • July 23, 2007, 12:13 p.m. CST

    PerseuEvans: Answers

    by chrth

    1) I don't think so. Going along with the same intolerance angle that has been in the books, I'd say she was just beaten up. The fact that it is a children's book lends credence.<p> 2) One of two things: it was either the unconscious Voldemort, or it was the part of Voldemort's soul that had been in Harry. How you view that entire scene depends on the answer. I think it's deliberately ambiguous as a result.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:15 p.m. CST

    What's the very last word in the book?

    by FILMFUNK

    JK Rowings made a big deal about it and I needs to know! although not a Potter fan at all just one word been bugging me!<P> my guess was 'Pubes'!

  • July 23, 2007, 12:16 p.m. CST

    Perseu

    by Frijole

    1) I'm going to say yes. At least that is what I inferred. 2) The part of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:20 p.m. CST

    The last word in the book is "well".

    by theoneofblood

    Yeah, kinda lame.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:20 p.m. CST

    "MoriartyAICN (3:57:51 PM): And honestly,

    by frankenfickle

    those people are the worst kind of thugs. Just shit. They're beneath contempt." Also, the Nazis were pretty bad, because of all the genocide. Also, it gives me a big smile the way spoiler writers are torn to pieces in the same article that every plot point of the book is revealed. That's nice.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:21 p.m. CST

    Also, sadism is hilarious!

    by theoneofblood

    Look at every WB cartoon ever made.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:27 p.m. CST

    ringwearer

    by phantoquashi

    the pay-off for the house-elves is dobby's happiness in being free and ron's response to harry's typical, sirius like attitude to the elves' involvement in the fight (because even harry isn't perfect); and while, yes, perhaps most house-elves do like being enslaved in her world, this may have more to do with the continual oppressive treatment by wizards than their inherent nature as much as it may just be their inherent nature after all. whereas in tolkien all the orcs are evil, but this is not a prejudice that the simple but occasionally surprising and loyal hobbits have, nor the brave but corruptable men, nor the wise and immortal elves, but a simple fact of that universe's un complex but thoroughly bizarre laws that govern the personalities of race. so who's to say that the same isn't the case with just the house elves in potter? the point is we don't know, and jk is brave enough at least ask the question... and it's not a comfortable one. as for the garden gnomes, they are the equivalent of pets... do we not have rat traps and insecticide? is that immoral? and sadism is funny; the painted garden gnome angel on the christmas tree might be cruel, but it's also hysterical, if in an immature way. as for f and g's tendency to bait muggles... that's a bit far isn't it? they play a prank on dudley who's a bit of a fucking bastard compared to most people anyway, but that, as far as i can remember, is the only example of their so-called "tendency" to bait muggles.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:29 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer. You are absolutely wrong.

    by Frijole

    It isn't even a subjective thing. "...Deathly Hallows" clearly addresses the issues that you claim it leaves open. The House Elves in particular. Hermione was shown to have been right all along. Between the turnabout of Kreacher (treat others with respect and they will do likewise) to the Hogwart's House Elves CHOOSING to join the fray when they were never asked or ordered to. The book goes into pretty clear waters in showing that most the Wizarding World's treatment of House Elves is nothing to be proud of. That it was simply understood as acceptable over time never made it right. The House Elves at Hogwarts LIKED being there because they were given warmth and respect and food and shelter. Dobby did NOT like being a House Elf because he was abused and treated with contempt by the Malfoys. All of this is right there on the page... as is the easy to infer idea that after this whole ordeal that the "good" Wizarding World as a whole may rethink the whole concept of House Elves servitude. Same with the Goblins- it is shown outright that neither the Goblins nor the Wizarding humans are either fully to blame or fully at fault for how they have fallen into the pattern of their unequal co-existence. There have been rights and wrongs on both sides. As for the lawn gnomes- yes, their treatment was used for comedic effect... but we're also shown human characters that are NOT amused by their mistreatemnt in Arthur Weasley, Hagrid and the Lovegoods. Just because not EVERY character shows the same exact ideals and values in regards to what many see as "lesser Magical creatures" does not mean that these issues are not addressed and that a more tolerant and respectful attitude than that shared by some of our leads isn't present.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:30 p.m. CST

    whoops - that's pests by the way

    by phantoquashi

    not pets. i might kick them sometimes, but i don't torture pets. promise.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:36 p.m. CST

    Van Buren: You're totally wrong

    by chrth

    Tony Almeida Lives!

  • July 23, 2007, 12:37 p.m. CST

    Prequel

    by sevenrivera

    I like the idea of a young Dumbledore vs. Grindelweld prequel. There's a lot of meat in that story that could be told. Their friendship, their fallout, the quest for the Elder Wand and then the wizarding world coming to the man that has thrice turned down the Minister of Magic title and the only one that could defeat that generation's Voldemort. A somewhat bad guy with a somewhat murky conception of what he's trying to do and why.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:37 p.m. CST

    I meant Rowling has to

    by CherryValance

    return to the wizarding world, because I can't imagine her being able to stay away from it and not write another. </p> I think that thing in King's Cross was what's left of Voldy and yeah Ariana was raped. Because they didn't use the term 'beaten' or anything like it. It was a more round about way of saying it, so that leads me to believe she was raped or else the would have just said it plain. Also why else would their dad seek revenge like that if she hadn't been?</p> BSB, he dies, but you find out it was all a dream brought about by too much scrapbooking. In reality he still lives under the stairs with Bobby Ewing. Read the book.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:39 p.m. CST

    So when are Mori and Quint going to join the TB?

    by chrth

    C'mon you posers!

  • July 23, 2007, 12:40 p.m. CST

    hogwarts' founders prequel

    by phantoquashi

    any takers? i like the dumbledore vs grindelwald one, but i'm more than happy for her to leave the series and world as it is.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:41 p.m. CST

    I think there's 2 ways of viewing King's Cross

    by chrth

    1) Literal. Harry is in some sort of limbo, and Dumbledore is able to visit him there and converse with him. The Voldemort is the real one, who was also knocked unconscious.<p> 2) Metaphorical. Harry is unconscious and ‘dreaming’; Dumbledore is not saying anything that Harry hasn’t figured out, he’s just putting voice to them. The Voldemort is the one that was part of Harry.<p> Honestly, I can’t decide which one is the way I think it was intended, or which one I prefer.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:42 p.m. CST

    The only books that need to be written

    by chrth

    Are the Fred and George books, which show how they were the true heroes of the series.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:42 p.m. CST

    Dumbledore

    by sevenrivera

    I really liked how Dumbledore killed himself through his own mistakes/selfishness/guilt and it was not Voldemort. Dumbledore is still the greatest wizard of all time and I would have been disappointed if Voldemort could take him. Not when he was able to take out Grindelweld (with the Elder Wand). The Deathly Hallows weren't important for Harry or for his story, the horcruxes and Voldemort were his story, the Deathly Hallows were the downfall of Dumbledore. They were his quest, his obsession, his weakness. This book we learned about Dumbledore's history and his life and his true death, so thus, the book was named for him.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:45 p.m. CST

    I am Batman: That comment is just as ignorant

    by chrth

    Enjoyment and appreciation of the HP books has nothing to do with how well-read a person is.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:46 p.m. CST

    prequels

    by jonnystevens

    I'd love a dumbledore prequel and maybe it could answer how he and fawkes hooked up and why the hell Voldemort got one of the two tailfeathers as a wand core! Still bugging me. i haven't heard any theories about it. dumbledore was notified when harry got the brother wand, but why did dumbledore give voldemort one? It seemed like in HBP that he had definietly taken interest in tom riddle, is that because he got fawkes wand?

  • July 23, 2007, 12:47 p.m. CST

    "Perhaps we sort to soon...."

    by Dr Lisa Cuddy

    Yeah, because Snape turns into a fucking Hufflepuff emo-bitch. The only snape-like thing in the book was when he asked Dumbledore about his ephitaph. Where is my snarky potions master. Tonks/Lupin--HA HA HA. I also hated how all Slytherins are considered "evil". Fuck that.

  • July 23, 2007, 12:54 p.m. CST

    So is Holden Caufield the first Emo?

    by chrth

    I think so, any earlier characters that would qualify?

  • July 23, 2007, 12:55 p.m. CST

    Although I guess Romeo was sort of Emo ...

    by chrth

    hmmmm

  • July 23, 2007, 12:58 p.m. CST

    to the non-fans

    by phantoquashi

    i think i read this somewhere else so i can't take credit for it, but the difference between the fans of harry potter and the people who dismiss it out of hand are that the fans understand that it's thoroughly uncool to like these books, and that they're not perfect, comparable to proustian or shakespearean works of literature; but those who haven't read them have missed out on one of the most charming, thrilling, affecting, and... yes, i'm gonna say it goddamnit... motherfucking magical stories ever told.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:01 p.m. CST

    Tks Frijole and Chrth

    by PerseuEvans

    About the baby-thing being a part of Voldemort's soul...that's quite interesting. Now in relation to Ariana's attack, I think it's quite open to interpretation. Children will read it one way and adults, another.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:03 p.m. CST

    What it comes down to is this:

    by chrth

    Orson Scott Card and Stephen King both love the Harry Potter books. No one in their right mind would ever consider either of them as needing to read more books (in the case of King, he probably needs to read fewer).

  • July 23, 2007, 1:05 p.m. CST

    ariana...

    by jonnystevens

    it says she was attacked. i haven't ever heard raped used as a synonym for attacked.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:05 p.m. CST

    ariana...

    by jonnystevens

    it says she was attacked. i haven't ever heard raped used as a synonym for attacked.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:06 p.m. CST

    sorry about the double

    by jonnystevens

  • July 23, 2007, 1:07 p.m. CST

    Diet Lord of the Rings

    by DarthScotland

    Whilst the previous books pinched ideas from other popular fiction this one went a bit too far and ruined it for me. The locket saga was too close to the ring for comfort. Plus the only idea/thread that wasnt guessed by fans was the three items of the deathly hallows, which was just crap really

  • July 23, 2007, 1:07 p.m. CST

    John Irving loves Harry Potter too...

    by Frijole

    And John Irving is easily one of the great American novelists. And I'd wager that he's pretty well read himself.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:10 p.m. CST

    I Am Batman:

    by toshiro-solo

    I have enjoyed the hell out of the HP books, and I read a LOT. I subscribe to the New Yorker, and just getting through the meat of an issue before the next comes is a challenge, but in addition, I still read quite a few books for someone who works full time and still has SOME semblance of a life. Lately, I've been on a Cormac McCarthy streak, but have also made time for the new Chabon, Hitchens' "God is Not Great", the Persepolis graphic novels, and a number of other things. That said, I love the HP books. It's not unlike film - loving Star Wars doesn't mean I can't also love Ozu or Melville or Kieslowski or Kubrick, etc...

  • July 23, 2007, 1:15 p.m. CST

    Long live Longbottom!!!

    by lordgrimplemort

    The book wasn't perfect, but there were parts of it that were. Neville's been one of my favorites from the start, and his part in this story was awesome. I cheered to find out that he's been the main pain in the ass for the deatheaters at Hogwart's all year, keeping up support for Harry even though he took regular beatings as a result. Then to see his grandmother so proud of him was great as well. But pulling the sword out of the hat and slicing off the snakes head was the icing on the cake. Just the fact that he was the one to stand up to Voldemort and say screw you even though Harry was supposedly dead and the battle was lost showed that Neville was one of the bravest characters of the series. I thought going in that I wouldn't be satisfied unless Neville killed Bellatrix Lestrange, and I still wish he had (although seeing Mrs. Weasley do it was almost as good), his stand against Voldemort and destruction of the final Horcrux had me cheering so much I couldn't read for the next 5 minutes.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:20 p.m. CST

    if you don't have at least a tear on your eyes ...

    by ludmir88

    at the end of the book you're a jackass!!!! Never again ... never again.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:25 p.m. CST

    toshiro-solo: I couldn't get into the latest Chabon

    by chrth

    Don't know why. I think it was the language that was getting to me. Was it good?

  • July 23, 2007, 1:29 p.m. CST

    Snape is ultimate heroe at the end of the series!!!

    by ludmir88

    Damn he risked a lot.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:33 p.m. CST

    THE BEST THING IN THIS CHAT:

    by Playkins

    "I think there is a concentrated core of total fucking scumbag dickless assholes who seem to see other people enjoying something, and all they can think to do is try to ruin it for them.<P> A close second in my book are people that come onto a talkback soleley to tell everyone how "shitty" they think whatever the talkback is about is.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:34 p.m. CST

    I've never read the books

    by Mattyboy122

    And likely never will, so I've only been exposed to Potter through the films (and interaction with fans, I suppose). That said, my problem with the films (and I'm assuming this spreads to the books) is that everything is so goofy, magic is so carelessly thrown about that it's hard to care about anything or be in awe when a fight involving magic breaks out. The inhabitants of Hogwarts are almost cartoon-like. Moaning Myrtle? Jesus Christ, I feel like I'm watching a bad looney toon whenever she's on screen. Miranda Richardson, who I love, looks like she walked out of Toontown in her role, too. Nothing is taken seriously, it's all self-conscious, winking at the readers, daring them to pick apart the patchwork Rowling has crafted (the woman has created nothing new, she has, indeed, grabbed from a myriad of sources, slowly stripped away any deeper sense of meaning they might have had, and slapped them into her story for the sake of people being able to pat themselves on the back for recognizing them (or perhaps to cover up her laziness or lack of creativity)). The Yule Ball scene in Goblet is cringeworthy. Like fucking Razzie award nominee for worst scene ever put to film. And the constant use of magic everywhere cheapens it when you have a big confrontation. It would be like popping in a Star Wars flick and seeing a jedi use his lightsaber to shave while using the force to flip through the channels on a TV. When it got to a battle and a jedi busted out some force powers you'd just be like 'oh, ho hum.' Anyway, I'm sure I'm starting a debate here which I don't mean to, I'm just saying I think the movies are pretty much terrible (and, my goodness, aren't we a culture that celebrates mediocrity? the three leads from Harry Potter have their handprints immortalized at Grauman's Chinese Theatre?). Comparing Rowling to Tarantino isn't half-bad. Both have made livings off of patching together other people's better ideas and have been idolized for it. Rowling probably has more creativity at her disposal (she at least tries to put some meaning into her story), but she's still cutting and pasting other stories together and making billions for it.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:36 p.m. CST

    matt

    by jonnystevens

    funny that you post that right after the preceeding post

  • July 23, 2007, 1:39 p.m. CST

    Deathly Hallows

    by lordgrimplemort

    I was generally happy with the book and thought it ended well, but there were a lot on slow spots. I thought the wedding would be done and they'd be on there quest by the 3rd chapter or so, and the long time they spent in the woods got a little old. But I thought the biggest waste of time was the Deathly Hallows themselves. Kind of pointless if you ask me. The unbeatable wand seemed to get beaten at least a couple of times. I wish that she had left that stuff out and used that time for something else, like a little more epilogue letting us know something about Luna and the other side characters. I wasn't expecting as much as Tolkien gave in ROTK, but a little more would have been nice. And for all the good characters that died we hardly saw any deatheaters die. Lucius Malfoy was one that I thought had to go and as far as we know, he didn't even get punished. And there was no mention of Umbridge's fate at all. A woman who tortured children in book 5 and become an all out genocidal maniac in book 7, condemning people for even being suspected of not being "purebloods"--she should have died a horrible death or spent the rest of her life in Azkaban. Greyback, too--in Malfoy's manor, I thought he was going to rape and then eat Hermione, but all it said was that Ron and Neville "took him down" I think. Did they kill him or just knock him down? One of my biggest complaints about this one was that after all their run ins with Deatheaters, the kids are still using stunning spells when they should be killing. If they had killed their captors at the Malfoy's, it would have saved a few lives at the Hogwart's battle. But hey, at least it didn't end like the Dark Tower!!

  • July 23, 2007, 1:40 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy

    by Bloo

    see I'm the opposite, to me the use of magic in everything and in every little detail textures the world for me, because I know if I had magic powers I wouldn't be cooking over a stove or walking or driving to work, I'd be poofing here and there and everywhere. To me the use of magic shows the human side of it if you will and how we will look for convience, if you will. And it establishes a much bigger world and a much more believable world so that when the "big" magic is whipped out you know it means buisness.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:43 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy

    by Frijole

    I'm only going to address two points from your post. 1) The characters in Harry Potter (stripped of their magical and/or supernatural aspects) are no more or less cartoonish than the characters of Dickens. Not one iota. And 2) The kids are the stars of a movie franchise that has grossed over 4 BILLION dollars already- with 2 movies (and the continued stateside and international grosses for movie 5 still growing) left to go. If Martin Lawrence gets his footprints in front of that theatre, I say "damn right", the Potter kids deserve to as well.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:47 p.m. CST

    the chinese theatre situation: WHY? anyone?

    by ludmir88

    I mean, probably the main cast are nice people and ...in the case of Emma Watson beautiful, but it was really necessary?

  • July 23, 2007, 1:48 p.m. CST

    Having Not Read One HP Book

    by Magic Rat

    And getting all the details from my g/f, I'd assume that this story is comarable to Lord of the Rings, which I did read....And judging from what I've heard, the HP series seems to have a better ending than LOTR - which, to me, was very flat, especially the Mt. Doom scene, very dull and sudden and poorly written....I'll probably start reading this when I have kids in a couple of years. But speaking of LOTR, any chance Peter Jackson directs the final movie? I can't think of anyone else who could pull it off.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:50 p.m. CST

    Rowling's writing

    by Bloo

    I think she introduces ideas that she wants toincorpurate but doesn't always get around to utilizing fully. For example McGongall, the Maruders, Rita, even Snape being Animagnus but Harry and Co never even attempting that, I though for sure that was going to happen and like I posted earlier would have provided an interesting chapter in the In the Woods sections and provide them with another alternative to their infiltrations other then invisabilty cloak and Poly Juice. Also Tonks ability to change her apperance, usually something that she spends time on but doesn't spend a whole lot of time on gets play later in but that's was an area of Tonks that just they dropped.<P>I know I'm kinda nitpicking here and I think they are excellent books, but really the animagnus was an area that was introduced from the beginning, McGonall was the very first wizard introduced in the books and such a big deal was made about her being an animagnus in books 1 and 3 but is dropped (except for the fact that her Patronus is also her animagnus form) that I though for sure the Big 3 and possibly one or 2 others would learn it.<P>I'm just trying to keep conversation here going because franklin I'm bored at work

  • July 23, 2007, 1:51 p.m. CST

    Ugh! What is people's issue with the Mann's thing?

    by Frijole

    I say again from previous post: The kids are the stars of a movie franchise that has grossed over 4 BILLION dollars already- with 2 movies (and the continued stateside and international grosses for movie 5 still growing) left to go. If Martin Lawrence gets his footprints in front of that theatre, I say "damn right", the Potter kids deserve to as well.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:52 p.m. CST

    Umm

    by Mattyboy122

    Have you ever even read Dickens!? A Tale of Two Cities features wonderful characters who, you know, didn't step out of cartoons. Twain didn't write cartoon characters. Tolkien didn't, either. Rowling has. At any rate, Martin Lawrence doesn't have his footprints at Grauman's, so I don't know why you brought that up. The Potter films, despite making money, are mediocre at best and downright awful at worst.

  • July 23, 2007, 1:54 p.m. CST

    Harry in the Forest = Aslan on the Stone Table

    by NetProphet

    Kind of struck me that neither could really be killed due to an "older, deeper magic" born out of the willingness to sacrifice themselves. They both surrender to arrogant, magical foes who fail to realize there might be a greater power they know nothing about, and their "resurrection" turns the tide of the final battle. (How is that for a non-Star Wars analogy?)<p> Overall a good read, but I think JKR may have tried too hard to throw in some change-ups from what was expected. In the end the Deathly Hallows were virtually a giant red herring. And as long as the book was, I would have liked some more Snape as well as some retribution for some of the underlings, like Lupin or Bill taking down Greyback. Also seemed to be too much teen angst surliness while being on the run, camping out, cold and hungry - it was almost 400 pages before they got really going on the quest(s).

  • July 23, 2007, 1:57 p.m. CST

    Frijole

    by Bloo

    I don't understand the Mann's thing either. I don't think people relize that when someone is inducted into Mann's is not a "Hollywood" thing, or say an AFI thing, it's when an actor/musician/entertainer/etc gets enough signutures on a petion, either that they started or fans have started, to have it done.

  • July 23, 2007, 2 p.m. CST

    If you do not see the cartoonish nature

    by Frijole

    of MANY of Dickens characters (the type of characters that the term "Dickensian" was actually made to describe) then you're blind. Twain did too, it was part of the brilliance of his satire. On both counts this was most prevelant with his characterizations of the rich and elite. And Martin "Big Momma's House" Lawrence's prints most certainly ARE at Graumann's. So are RD-D2 and C-3PO's and Whoopi Godlberg's. Look it up, sir.

  • July 23, 2007, 2 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy122: Twain wrote a ton of cartoon characters

    by chrth

    And I always considered Mr. Micawber pretty cartoonish.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:01 p.m. CST

    according to Frijole anyone can deserve it...mmm

    by ludmir88

    Frijole,is there an famous actor with a lot of experience that couldn't get his footprints on the cement?. Simple question.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:01 p.m. CST

    King's Cross

    by sevenrivera

    Perhaps some kind of purgatory? Harry's soul is there and the place's relatively good to him (embarrassing and empty perhaps, but generally nice) and Voldemort's soul is there as well as they killed each other and his soul is twisted and tormented. Harry is given the option of moving on or going back. Voldemort didn't have the option to "move on" because the snake was still alive (plus, his torment would indicate that obviously, he is not ready to move on). Just a thought. Oh yeah, and Dumbledore was there because he's a badass and can probably move back and forth (or was waiting himself before moving on).

  • July 23, 2007, 2:02 p.m. CST

    chrth:

    by toshiro-solo

    Yeah, The Yiddish Policeman's Union wasn't my favorite Chabon. Pretty conventional story structure - a straight up mystery - and you're right, the language was sometimes a slog. That said, some of the Yiddish has a kind of uniqueness to the sound that could be fun. Overall, not great, but not bad. For being the new "real" Chabon, I didn't think it was much better than his last - the "throw-off" Holmes book.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:03 p.m. CST

    nearly everyones opinion on harry potter is fucked

    by brainofmorbius

    seriously, the amount of sheer idiocy involved in any discussion of these books is staggering. the idea that because im a well read, literate, intelligent person i should consider myself "above" harry potter is thrown around a lot, and it's fucking nonsense. as for this I READ THE FIRST ONE AND IT WAS SHIT SO I IGNORED THE REST AND IM BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE argument is stupid, too. each book reflects harrys age in it - as such the first two are simple, childish romps. noticing this DOES NOT GIVE YOU CARTE BLANCHE TO CRITICISE THE WHOLE SERIES, and it makes you look sort of stupid. because the books are unashamedly populist and accessible, cynical readers always read them in an irritatingly closed-minded way and pick up on small pieces of character development (unsurprisingly, over the course of seven years, sometimes the characters DO waver in their ideals!) and bang on about plot holes that aren't even there. the few, genuine plot holes picked up on this thread are not only minor and easily explained, but so so so fucking minor that they pretty much underline what a staggering amount has been done *right*. and why is everyone so upset that the deathly hallows were only mentioned in this book? seriously, people are grumbling about a book INTRODUCING NEW PLOT ELEMENTS? fuck me, what a sin. it's not as if the last chapters aren't an absolute masterclass in capitalising on foreshadowing - the whole House Elf business may have irritated the shit out of me first time around, but their entering the fray in the Battle Of Hogwarts was a real punch-the-air moment. i agree that after the return of voldemort at the end of goblet of fire, that side of the plot did seem to sag a little while harry had some long-needed character development, and the hogwarts plots became repetitive and dull. book 5 is probably the weak link in the series overall. most of the books, this one included, have a bit too much waffle and periods of inactivity, and many of the emotional beats are wasted (that dobbys was the most moving in the final book was unexpected to say the least) it's this simple - the potter books are a shrewd mixture of styles, with an unprecedented level of complexity in the slowly unfolding plot, which has done wonders for child literacy and provided a genuine pop cultural phenomenon which it's simply fun to be a part of. pretty much everyone i know has an interest in the series, but few would actually claim the books to be amongst the best ever written. for

  • July 23, 2007, 2:04 p.m. CST

    incidentally, that was my first ever post.

    by brainofmorbius

    hello, you buggers.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:06 p.m. CST

    King's Cross = Mobil Ave

    by chrth

    Harry = Neo, Dumbledore = Rama Kandra, Voldemort = Sati<p> Ok, maybe not

  • July 23, 2007, 2:07 p.m. CST

    brainofmorbius: you're over-reacting in your first post

    by chrth

    I'd say a large majority of the posts in this talkback are generally supportive of the HP franchise; there have only been a few open/direct criticisms of the books and its readers.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:10 p.m. CST

    At Grauman's site

    by Mattyboy122

    There is no mention of Lawrence having footprints there. What's more, Twain did use caricature-like characters for satire, but who is Rowling satirizing with Moaning Myrtle? What's more, Twain's protagonists were real, fleshed out characters. The thing is, the films have had no cultural impact. Not a single line from Harry Potter (book or film) has entered the pop-culture mainstay. Star Wars is deserving of such a spot at Grauman's because its cultural impact was immeasurable. The Potter films, on the other hand, are cash-ins for Warner Bros, Rowling, and company.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:11 p.m. CST

    The ADULT VERSIONS of the books!!!

    by raquin

    can someone please PLEASE answer me a question. HAS ANYONE EVER READ THE ADULT VERSIONS of the HP books???!!! maybe all of the nudity and sex is in the adult version of HPDH??? and i am assuming that Ron swears alot more in those books as well... i heard that it was illegal to order those versions in the states is that true? PLEASE PLEASE ANSWER ME THAT!!!

  • July 23, 2007, 2:14 p.m. CST

    THEY DON'T DESERVE IT !!!!!.........yet.

    by ludmir88

    maybe in 10 years time.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:14 p.m. CST

    THEY DON'T DESERVE IT !!!!!.........yet.

    by ludmir88

    maybe in 10 years time.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:14 p.m. CST

    THEY DON'T DESERVE IT !!!!!.........yet.

    by ludmir88

    maybe in 10 years time.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:17 p.m. CST

    hahaha raquin: adult version means adult cover

    by ludmir88

    well...i guess.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:17 p.m. CST

    Matty

    by Bloo

    Harry Potter himself has become a pop culture icon. I would also venture that most people now know what Hogwarts and muggles are

  • July 23, 2007, 2:19 p.m. CST

    the end of harry potter

    by strosmer

    First, thank god there will be no more of these dumb books coming out. It'd be fine if just kids and adolescents read them, that's who they're for, but my god, what the hell is it with all these adults reading them? Everyday on the train or bus I see people in their 20's and 30's reading these novels. Just more evidence of the dumbing down of America in my opinion. Harry Potter is for kids. Go read some Faulkner or something! Ok, got that off my chest. Now, for those of you who do read these books, I have a little treat here. I found the book posted on the internet and have decided to spoil the ending here and now. Behold, the final paragraph of the last Harry Potter: Harry stood on the precipice, changed, a man. His victory over the forces of evil could hold nothing to how he felt at that very moment. He zipped up his pants and said to himself, "I hope the next time will be with a woman." Then he walked into the sunset, leaving Ron tied to the trunk of the tree crying his pansy ginger head off. The End.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:19 p.m. CST

    Sword in the Sorting Hat

    by Fernwick_

    Technically, the Sword of Griff N Dorf, was stolen by the Goblin, and it never actually says, THE SWORD OF GRIF N DORF, it said a sliver blade with Rubied Handle, it could have been the Sword of Moneys Bum. We dont know, she doesnt say, I ll be she just made an error and took the name off, it must have been another enchanted blade. Comments?

  • July 23, 2007, 2:21 p.m. CST

    And Rowling uses her most cartoonish characters

    by Frijole

    either for satire (of the British upper class as Dickens did) or straight up comic relief (as Twain often did when not actively taking the piss out of some social more or other). As for the footprint's: http://tinyurl.com/26rbwc (check page 3, 201-300). And as for nothing HP-related having a cultural impact or entering the pop-culture lexicon, that's even more ridiculous. But this conversation has been done to death and you've already shown yourself to be pretty clueless, so what is the point?

  • July 23, 2007, 2:22 p.m. CST

    "pop-culture mainstay", dude it was in the Dark Tower

    by chrth

    Harry Potter is deeply ingrained in Western Culture (especially US and UK). To suggest otherwise is ludicrous. Sure, there aren't any "May the Force Be With You" quotes floating around, but so what?

  • July 23, 2007, 2:25 p.m. CST

    raquin: no such thing

    by tiredpm

    In the UK you can buy copies of the novels that have a more abstract and "mature" cover -- they were released so that adults could read them in public and not be embarrassed at reading a children's book. However, the text is no different.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:25 p.m. CST

    I am not going to say what happens at the end of book

    by emeraldboy

    but I have read the epiloug and your all wide off the mark.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:25 p.m. CST

    Sword in the sorting hat...

    by W3bzpinn3r

    IS the sword of Griffendor. It is a silver blade with rubies. The fact Neville pulled it out proved he was a true, brave member of the house of Griffendor, as only they can pull it out of the hat. It completes Nevelle's character arc from being a pathetic, low self-esteem loser who was embarrassed by his heritage to being a brave, confident wizard who embraced his past. Anyone who says Potter books are just for kids never read them. They have just as much layering (if not more)to them as any Steven King or Michael Crichton book.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:26 p.m. CST

    PottER meets HuntER

    by WX1

    <p>AND NOW it's time for Time for Neil Gaiman to give a “let’s DO d’is!” call to Alan Moore, or vice-versa (since they are pals), for a young adult League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Potter gets a call to join the current group already consisting of:</p> <p>-- Naruto</p> <p>-- Nancy Drew</p> <p>-- Mary Marvel</p> <p>-- Cody Banks</p> <p>-- Joo Myung-ee (I know, I know, little obscure; of manhwa publication “Moon Boy” fame, yes?)</p> <p>-- Robin, the Boy Wonder, leader of the group</p> and, last but, not least, oh, yes, yes, yes: <p>"Books of Magic"'s Timothy Hunter</p> <p>Meeting of Harry Potter and Tim Hunter would need to be a staredown ‘tween the both of ‘em (and their birds) that lasts for a few panels, two pages at the most. At some point, both would seem to simultaneously remove their respective glasses to clean the lens on their shirt or tie . . . but, it'll go down as how Tim took off his glasses FIRST. Heh. Get it? OK.</p>

  • July 23, 2007, 2:27 p.m. CST

    If you search the names

    by Mattyboy122

    alphabetically, Lawrence doesn't show up. At any rate, I'm not talking about Harry Potter as a whole. The significance of Harry Potter as a whole is undeniable (if unfortunate). HOWEVER, the films have been mediocre at best. My argument has been about the films, since handprints are given to people relating to movies.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:28 p.m. CST

    raquin

    by Harold The Great

    The idea that the "adult version" means Ron swears like a 17 year old boy, a frustrated Harry pretending to be sleeping in the tent when his friends are getting it on made my day. Hey, maybe every "wang" is "wand" in the children's version. Would give a whole new meaning to the story. Especially the story Elder Wang. So, what I'm trying to say, all in all it was a fun book. Neville ruled.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:30 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy122: You're not worth talking to

    by chrth

    Why are you even here?

  • July 23, 2007, 2:31 p.m. CST

    That is your OPINION on the movies

    by Frijole

    And while it is valid AS your personal opinion, it is an opinion that is contradicted by the millions and millions of fans (movie) and the majority of critics. Does that make them right and you wrong? No. But when it comes to popularity (which is what drives those whose prints lay there)... majority rules.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:35 p.m. CST

    Engoland flooding.

    by WX1

    <P>Man, you woulda' thought something like this woulda' waited at least a week after the Potter final book release, but, NAAAH-OOOOOOO.</P> <P>The paper flood's already occurred; if the water flood continues in merry old Engoland the way it's doing right now (the friggin THAMES rising?!? I thought something like that would happen only in a Cussler novel. VERT OT -- any DOXA owners out there?) -- and let's not mentioned foiled terr' attacks -- 2007's gonna be down as G.B.'s most interesting years.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:35 p.m. CST

    The UK has much more turists since the first book ...

    by ludmir88

    came out. Sort of.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:36 p.m. CST

    No Batman...

    by Frijole

    You claimed that anyone who DOES like HP must not be as well read as you (a pompous notion if I've ever heard one). So people were simply listing off some authors (like King and John Irving) who no sane person (regardless of your opinion of their own work) would ever accuse of not being well read. Bing bong.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:36 p.m. CST

    The Appeal of the books...

    by ra2bk

    is grounded in her accurately describing the life and nature of the characters growing up. The themes/motifs and mythos "borrowed" from other sources does not diminish that as the books primary literary impact.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:36 p.m. CST

    Lily's eyes

    by pervy elf fancier

    It's interesting that everyone read Snape's last request as a need to have Harry see the "real" him. I thought that he simply wanted to see Lily's eyes as he died. Or maybe it's both...it was heartbreaking all the same. excellent book.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:36 p.m. CST

    If a movie is popular

    by Mattyboy122

    That doesn't mean it's good. Jesus Christ, that's such a ridiculous argument. Citizen Kane didn't make money when it was released and won one Oscar. Titanic made heaps of money and won a slew of Oscars. Which is the better film? I'll give you a hint. It's not fucking Titanic. Unfair comparison? Fine. The Chronicles of Narnia has also received a fairly mediocre outing in cinema (despite making millions). Does that mean the cast of that flick should be immortalized at Grauman's? Why isn't the cast of LotR at Grauman's? Those films were, despite their flaws, leaps and bounds better than any of the Potter flicks.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:37 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy122: might I suggest...

    by tiredpm

    ...you head off and rant over on one of the TalkBacks that had to do with the release of the latest HP films? You stated up front that you haven't read the books and this TalkBack was created for those of us who have read the books, both those of us that enjoyed them and those who did not.<p>Your opinion is your own, but surely you would have to admit that Hollywood's track record of converting novels to films has been poor at best? If so, how can you immediately discount the work of JK Rowling without reading her work but just watching the filmed adaptations of it? As a final thought, I find it hard to believe that you have not read reviews for the movies that bemoan the scenes that were cut, the characters that did not make it through, the plots that were ignored for a streamlined narrative. The books offer a richer universe and lend a cohesiveness that the movies have not been able to approach.<p>This is with all humor, mate: should I judge Dickens work based on a Muppet Christmas Carol? :-)

  • July 23, 2007, 2:38 p.m. CST

    Matty

    by ra2bk

    Matty i think the point is that nobody gives a shit about Grauman's, and that the honor of being there is relegated to only the "best" cinematic endeavors. If the cast of Narnia made all the books together over the course of 10 years they too might get there, yes.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:40 p.m. CST

    Matty

    by Bloo

    actually there are musicans, and others not releating to the film industry at Mann's. It's not just a film thing, although that was what is was established for. In fact I think there are some pro wrestlers there who have been in movies. Don't quote me but I believe both Hulk Hogan and Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson both have handprints there. And the movies are popular and as I mentioned earlier, it's not some AFI decision or studio decision, people start a petiton and if they have enough signutures, etc it'll be added.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:40 p.m. CST

    to "not" only the best

    by ra2bk

    sorry

  • July 23, 2007, 2:41 p.m. CST

    I am Batman: We're not being defensive

    by chrth

    We're just proving you wrong. Don't take it so hard.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:42 p.m. CST

    I've been to a talkback

    by Mattyboy122

    on the films, but after seeing those who think the property is overrated or have a distaste for it (like I am Batman, who I'm prone to agree with), I decided to throw in my two cents with the group of folks who dislike the films heavily. And Hollywood does have an awful track record for literary adaptations, but these are adaptations of Rowling's work that are mostly embraced, not just by fans, but by Rowling herself. Therefore, I think it's okay to assume that some of the problems with the films are rooted in the work that Rowling has written. Is that not a fair assumption?

  • July 23, 2007, 2:43 p.m. CST

    And Mattyboy...

    by Frijole

    I specifically said that it was based on POPULARITY not QUALITY. I never made ANY argument about the quality of the movies (though I do like them). God, you really ARE dense aren't you?

  • July 23, 2007, 2:44 p.m. CST

    Good grief, the handprint thing

    by tiredpm

    You pay for it! It doesn't cost all that much, there was a big article about this last year! You make a donation to whatever sycophantic group runs that thing and then it's timed to the release of a movie! No need for a petition, just a good agent and some ready cash.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:44 p.m. CST

    ADULT VERSION OF THE BOOKS pt 2

    by raquin

    so thank you both TIREDPM and GALATT. i unfortunately just auctioned on the adult version of HPDH and paid $40 plus $17 s&h for the "adult version" had i known i wouldn't have purchased it... DAMN!!! but it was a rather hot and perverse idea to think that there were some true teenage dealings going on in the wizarding world...

  • July 23, 2007, 2:45 p.m. CST

    If Grauman's is determined by popularity

    by Mattyboy122

    (I honestly don't know how the system works at Grauman's, though I know the stars on the Walk of Fame are petition-based), then that's a shitty system. What's more, it doesn't negate my argument that we as a culture are gluttons for mediocrity, hell it would reinforce it (especially if you take into account the presence of Martin Lawrence, amongst others).

  • July 23, 2007, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Favorite aspect of the book

    by ra2bk

    My favorite aspect of the 7th book was by far the humanizing of Dumbledore. She managed to maintain that he was the greatest wizard in terms of skill (and towards the end of his life wisdom) while also fleshing out his weaknesses and motivations that made him 100 percent human.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Favorite aspect of the book

    by ra2bk

    My favorite aspect of the 7th book was by far the humanizing of Dumbledore. She managed to maintain that he was the greatest wizard in terms of skill (and towards the end of his life wisdom) while also fleshing out his weaknesses and motivations that made him 100 percent human.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:46 p.m. CST

    GREAT MARKETING that's the phrase!!!!

    by ludmir88

    BUT SNAPE IS THE MAN. YOU JUST READ THE FINAL BOOK AND YOU'LL SEE.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:47 p.m. CST

    Fernwick - the Sword in The Hat

    by NetProphet

    My take on it is that even though Harry had the agreement to give the sword back to the Goblins and it was last seen in the possession of Griphook, it was never Harry's sword to give to anyone. It was Godric Gryffindor's, and he was a powerful wizard. If you go back to Chamber of Secrets, when the sword first came out of the hat at Harry's need and Dumbledore explained that it came because he was acting as a true Gryffindor - courageous and loyal - then it seems to make some sense. The sword came at Neville's need when he was acting being brave and loyal up against an overwhelming foe. So despite the Goblins' claim to the sword, Gyffindor's enchantment will always return it to a true Gryffindor in time of need. Thus, not a continuity error or some other sword as you suggest (how many ruby handled swords capable of destrying horcruxes could there be out there?), but JKR could have maybe explained a little.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:47 p.m. CST

    God save the Rowling.

    by WX1

    <p>I've only seen the films, but, gotta hand it to Ms. Rowling -- she deserves every dime earned. I mean, making kids read a paperbound hardback in a time where NO paper was predicted to exist anymore?</P> <p>Millions and millions upon millions of other millions up millions books in print, with no sign of OOP in sight for the next hundred years maybe, concerning this one character and his pals and his school in an age where entire books can be downloaded in seconds. But, the hardcopy sells to a days-old aged line 'round the block days you might think's intended for IPhone buyers</P <p>English Depts. are gonna have to turn away hopefuls who're gonna wanna do their M.A. or Ph.D theses on Potter.</P> <p>Best believe. She's created a legend.</p>

  • July 23, 2007, 2:47 p.m. CST

    I am Batman: You really should use google before

    by chrth

    Opening your mouth. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/02/earlyshow/leisure/books/main1858134.shtml

  • July 23, 2007, 2:48 p.m. CST

    You are Batman

    by Harold The Great

    Let's assume I'm in your "popular things suck" camp. Doesn'toming to a Harry Potter Book 7 Spoiler Thread, and arguing with the uneducated, unread, child minded Harry Potter fans sounds like something... a complete tool would do?

  • July 23, 2007, 2:49 p.m. CST

    Um Frijole

    by Mattyboy122

    Because I bring up the issue of quality that makes me dense? Well excuse me for expecting some standards for quality.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:50 p.m. CST

    Mattybot122: yes and no

    by tiredpm

    I did wonder if I'd have Rowling's endorsement thrown back at me. :-)<p>The movies are like Harry Potter Lite -- the main details are intact, the characterizations are fairly true and the main plot line is protected. However, detail shading are lost. So, yes, it is a fair assumption that Rowling's embracing of the movies implies that all is well with them in conjunction with the books. However, I don't think it's fair to dismiss her work without reading it in it's original form. Dismiss the screenwriter if you will, but to throw out the baby with the bathwater would be to refute the work of Tom Wolfe after watching Bonfire of the Vanities.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:51 p.m. CST

    and I don't think anyone

    by Bloo

    has ever said that Harry Potter is the crowning achivement in litary fantasy. It's a fun enjoyable ride that has attempted what so few fantasy books over the years have attempted, a single course journy of a group of people over the course of several books. I mean there have been those that have tried but it's mainly been in..well our circles that people have heard of Prachett, Saberhagen, even to a lesser extent Gaiman. however Harry Potter has captured the hearts of people worldwide. It's not high lit nor should it be considered as such. It, even in this last book but not as much in previous books, uses modern terms and wording, and items (like driving an automobile, computers, PlayStation, etc) that date it. In alot of ways it's similar to Lewis who I don't think forsaw the lasting impact Narnia had. Do I perfer Narnia over Harry Potter, yes, I think Lewis was a genius (having read more then just his Narnia stuff, his Space Triology is brilletn, Screwtape is fun nad is a great exploration into the human mind), where as Rowling is an extremly talented writer who has made a strong impact. I'm curioius to see what else she can come up with to judge her true char. as a writer. And certainly in the fantsy lit world that has exploded since the release of HP and of course the movie versions of LOTR and Narnia, there are far worse, I'm looking at you GP Taylor, and others.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:51 p.m. CST

    just watched DieHard 4

    by FILMFUNK

    Really rather good!

  • July 23, 2007, 2:52 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy122: typo in your name, sorry

    by tiredpm

    And it was meant to read "detail AND shading". Just trying to keep this civil...

  • July 23, 2007, 2:54 p.m. CST

    tiredpm

    by Mattyboy122

    That's fair. I've tried to keep my criticism of Rowling to a minimum (and when I criticize her, it's only regarding things from the films that I know are her work). My main beef has been with the films (since I'm assuming Rowling didn't write 'and then Warwick Davis crowd-surfed while the lead singer from Pulp sold himself like a whore on the streetcorner').

  • July 23, 2007, 2:57 p.m. CST

    Completely drained, sad it's all over. What a ride!!

    by picardsucks

    Loved the book, a very emotionally draining experiance. Can't belive Harry's tale is really over but it is. Anyone think there will be another series based on the offspring??? I think JK is too young and creative to just retire from it all.

  • July 23, 2007, 2:59 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy122: Um..?

    by tiredpm

    I must have missed that line somewhere. Any chance you want to nail that down for me, or did you accidentally paste something in your post? Having said that, I still haven't seen the newest film due to a couple of sick kids at home. Now I may have something to look forward to...<p>In all honesty, though, if that line isn't in one of the movies they really should find room for it in the next one.

  • July 23, 2007, 3 p.m. CST

    Severus Snape's Final Moments...

    by vampirepacman

    Don't know if someone said this already, but I thought Snape wanted Harry to look at him not so that Harry could "understand him" or whatever, but rather so that he could look into Lily's eyes one last time before he died.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:02 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy... again

    by Frijole

    You pulled out the "just because it is popular, doesn't mean it is good" card directly after I stated that the series deserving to be immortalized at Mann's was DUE to its popularity NOT its quality. I had said nothing about the movie series quality at that point, only its popularity. THAT is why you're dense.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:04 p.m. CST

    chrth: How do you know that...

    by thejwac

    Sirius is Harry's oldest son's middle

  • July 23, 2007, 3:05 p.m. CST

    tiredpm

    by Mattyboy122

    I was referring to the Yule Ball scene in Goblet of Fire when Warwick Davis' character crowd-surfs while Jarvis Cocker sings maybe the most cringe-inducing song ever to be used in a movie. I'm praying that Rowling didn't write anything even resembling that. As for Rowling's literary merit, saying she's the CS Lewis of the postmodern world might be fitting (based on what I gather about her work from the films). Waddayaknow, I managed to pass Rowling something of a compliment. I, however, still stick to Tolkien. I'm just getting into Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire series, which I've heard good buzz about. This is completely off-topic, and I apologize for that.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:06 p.m. CST

    Why wasn't Snape's portrait in the office?

    by Gorrister

    In the final chapter, Harry referred to Snape as a Hogwarts Headmaster, so I'm assuming he is officially considered one (as opposed to Unbridge, who is not). So, when Snape died, why didn't his portrait appear in the Headmasters Office?

  • July 23, 2007, 3:07 p.m. CST

    thejwac: It's a total guess

    by chrth

    But one I'm reasonably confident with. I can't imagine he'd name a child after either Dumbledore or Snape before he named one after Sirius.<p> Begs the question: what's Lily's middle name? Maybe just Ginevra after her mother ... ooh, wait, I bet it's Molly.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:09 p.m. CST

    picard

    by Bloo

    I really don't want to see another 7 books about Harry and Ginny's kids having adventures with Professor Longbottom and Hagrid and getting in trouble with Headmaster McGongall, however I think 1 or 2 books about the 19 year period inbetween would be alirght. Locating remaining Death Eaters and bringing them to Justice, harry dealing with even more fame, the weddings, explantion as to how they work without NEWTS (although harry has enough gold he probably doesn't have to work, wasn't it said or implied in one of the books that James and Lily either didn't have a large paying job or worked basically full time for the Order) plus with Sirius inheritance and I'm assuming returns on Weasly's Wheezings (it wasn't a gift it was an investmant wasn't it). Hermione with her notierity and knowledge could very easily become a writer like Bathilda, so the could be set too, but I don't see tha tneccassirly happening. but yeah no books about Harry and Ginny's kids.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:11 p.m. CST

    many writers would like to have that marketing power

    by ludmir88

    the potter series had. Well hopefully the fantasy films will meet its end at the end of 2010. after Narnia, the golden compass, the spiderwick chronicles, lemony snicket,terabithia, and the last harry potter film. what film genre will rule in the next decade? only the marketing power will tell.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:11 p.m. CST

    Gorrister: Good question

    by chrth

    I'm going to guess it was an oversight. Although maybe his 'sacking' invalidates his claim to the wall?

  • July 23, 2007, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy122: Oh, okay

    by tiredpm

    No, that scene does not exist in the books! The band in the book (which was fictional) could not be filmed due to a copyright issue with the band's name -- Wyrd Sisters, I think, o something close to it.<p>Doesn't make Jarvis any less of a whore, but this is a man who started off as a guest presenter for Top of the Pops, so you know his standards were for sale anyway.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:15 p.m. CST

    Again, Frijole

    by Mattyboy122

    I don't think it's dense to bring up the issue of quality when something is honored or immortalized. Moving the conversation toward the question of quality is not only valid, it should be essential. Nice that you have to resort to calling someone dense, though.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:16 p.m. CST

    You can't judge the books on the movies

    by chrth

    For one thing, the movies leave out a ton of stuff from the book that explain things in the movie. I can't imagine how someone who hasn't read the books can follow the movies completely. There's so much that isn't explained but should be.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Gorrister

    by Bloo

    I was wondering about that too. Maybe Snape's magic portriat wasn't finshed yet when he was killed.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:18 p.m. CST

    the phoenix?

    by daneel

    So does anybody know what happened to Fawkes?

  • July 23, 2007, 3:20 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9

    by antonphd

    You really are the definition of a hater. People who vomit shit just because they are misterable assholes. Get a fucking life already! Get fucking laid! Maybe get laid by a guy or two chicks or something! You are one repressed asshole! Get over yourself and stop dumping your shit on everyone else.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:23 p.m. CST

    daneel

    by Bloo

    this is just a guess but I believe in CoS or OotP it's mentioned the phoenix's are loyal to one "master" or "owner" since Dumbledore was dead, it left to go somewhere else, it's time and service and purpose being done.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:25 p.m. CST

    The point is that you brought up quality when

    by Frijole

    that wasn't the topic. It was asked why the Potter series was deserving of immortilization at Mann's. Several of us stated that it was the series' popularity. You stated that it was of middling to poor quality. We stated that in regards to Mann's, that is irrelevant. You continued on about the quality and then attacked those that said that popularity was equivalent to popularity- which no one ever did. I didn't call you dense until you'd ignored or at least misinterpreted the crux of numerous posts.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:29 p.m. CST

    Um

    by Mattyboy122

    I don't think the two should be separated. So when the issue of popularity was brought up, I decided to bring up the issue of quality. I don't see anything wrong with that. When I see a franchise that is popular but, quite frankly, lacking in quality being honored, I wonder why (in the case of LotR), say, a franchise that is popular and is of good to great quality isn't.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:35 p.m. CST

    the book stole a major twist from FINAL DESTINATION 2

    by s0nicdeathmonkey

    Just saying....

  • July 23, 2007, 3:39 p.m. CST

    I am Batman: Whoa, you're in deep denial here

    by chrth

    Irving was appearing with King and Rowling for a reading. You think he was forced at gunpoint to appear?<p> Wow, I don't know man. You might need to let this one go.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:39 p.m. CST

    At any rate

    by Mattyboy122

    I don't belong in a talkback dedicated to the books, so I'll leave this one be. Maybe I'll head over to one about OotP, but I doubt it. Thanks to tiredpm for keeping it civil with me. Here's to more days discussing the merit of the Star Wars prequels, flames on Optimus, nipples on the Batsuit, Harry Potter flicks, Ichi the Joker, and more.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:41 p.m. CST

    LotR not being honored? WTF?

    by chrth

    Didn't ROTK sweep the oscars? Wasn't LOTR named the #1 book of the 20th century?<p> Guys, this is no different than the endlessly pointless SW vs LOTR debates. HP didn't usurp LOTR or anything like that. They can coexist in the world.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:42 p.m. CST

    I wanna see a book about how Harry asked Ginny to marry

    by Jugs

    him, and she accepting, after he had been living in a tent with another woman for the past year.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:45 p.m. CST

    ugh

    by brainofmorbius

    "People who claim the Harry Potter books are great are unfamiliar with great literature." People who write sentences like that have got lemon curd for brains. You're the guy who hates The Beatles but loves Wagner - you're more or less right, but nobody really agrees with you. People who claim the Harry Potter books are "great" probably had a good time reading them, and ought to be allowed to express that without some jumped up numpty pointing out the utterly redundant point that "The Deathly Hallows" isn't exactly "Martin Chuzzlewit". Really, this whole argument is stupid. That the popularity of Harry Potter is seen as a stick to beat him with by people who can't even be arsed to read what they're condemning typifies everything I hate about the internet. I think anyone who professes to be interested in GREAT LITERATURE owes it to themselves to read the defining novels of each generation, which in this case can't really be argued to be anything other than Harry Potter, no matter how snobbily you try to undermine its fans.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:49 p.m. CST

    HAHAHAHA JUGS. THIS PEOPLE ARE JUST PERVS HAHA...

    by ludmir88

    HAHAHAHA. A BOOK OF HARRY'S HONEYMOON? I MEAN HARRY POTTER NOT THE OTHER HARRY.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:50 p.m. CST

    A tent

    by ra2bk

    ...where he also lived with her brother who married the woman in that tent.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:52 p.m. CST

    What happens in the Tent, stays in the Tent

    by chrth

    <nt>

  • July 23, 2007, 3:52 p.m. CST

    Although, Muriel does say that Ron looks like Ginny

    by chrth

    with his hair so long.<p> No, Bad ChrTh! BAD!

  • July 23, 2007, 3:54 p.m. CST

    Thoughts on possible revisiting the Universe by JK

    by ra2bk

    I would say her best bet on writing more in the Harry Potter universe would be to either do a dumbledore/grindelweld prequel as has been previously noted, or use someone elses kids like Neville or something. But i think the latter would be tough because it would require essentially another 7 years and a repitition of a lot of crap she had to write in the early books to establish teh world.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:54 p.m. CST

    Ginny was totally gonna offer her snatch to Harry

    by theoneofblood

    Come on, "special birthday present"? We all know what that means. Ron is just the ultimate cockblocker.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:55 p.m. CST

    HERMIONE IS NOT THAT GORGEOUS IN THE BOOKS!!!!

    by ludmir88

    IS SHE?

  • July 23, 2007, 3:56 p.m. CST

    Hermione

    by ra2bk

    is known to have been based off of JK herself, or the type of girl JK was. And i think she is supposed to be fairly attractive (as evidenced by Viktor Krum's desires)

  • July 23, 2007, 3:57 p.m. CST

    Hermione was less attractive until she got her teeth

    by chrth

    fixed.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:58 p.m. CST

    Chinese Theater....

    by seanny_d

    you know who has handprints at the Chinese theater? Steven freakin' Segal. That's really all that needs to be said. It invalidates the entire argument of whether or not the Potter kids deserve them. On a personal note, they are cultural icons (regardless of your personal opinion of it) and having their "wand prints" makes sense.

  • July 23, 2007, 3:59 p.m. CST

    Mattyboy122: Next time, let's debate Transformers

    by tiredpm

    Now THAT I'll get downright uncivil over. :-)

  • July 23, 2007, 3:59 p.m. CST

    hermione

    by elysion

    I always thought she was supposed to be a bit homely, what with the passing description of big frizzy hair and having Madam Pomfrey shorten her front teeth that time she got cursed. Not hideous but not a beauty, either.

  • July 23, 2007, 4 p.m. CST

    Fuck the haters and the spoilers

    by Bean_

    I hope everyone was able to enjoy the book with out having it ruined for them. I started in 1998 in 5th grade with Sorcerer's Stone and I'm in a bit of shock now that it's over. I grew up with Harry, he was my age for most of the books... thank you J.K. Rowling!

  • July 23, 2007, 4:05 p.m. CST

    What happened to Krum?

    by tiredpm

    Mentioning him just now does make me wonder why there was not an international element to the final battle. I can understand Voldemort and Harry at Hogwarts, but wouldn't you expect this to be a battle across the world?<p>Hey, I'm a Brit so I have no problem with it just being my country with the stones to step up and defeat a global threat (especially as we've pretty much bent over and done as we're told in recent years...) but after the wizarding world at large was introduced in Book 4 I am a little surprised that it played no further impact except as a character with some knowledge to move the plot along.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:08 p.m. CST

    I'm a big baby

    by TheAntagonist

    Dobby's burial was absolutely one of the most heartbreaking moment in any of the books for me and I am not quite sure why. It was very well written. JK just lets you read a bit and then stabs you in the heart again, lets up stabs again. When they give up their socks and hats to him, I was a mess. Then the epitaph...are you kidding me! On a happier note, Neville proving unequivocally that he is a true Gryffindor was the payoff his character deserved and was a long time coming. I thought he would take out Bellatrix but, I think her end was quite fitting as anyhow. I was upset about Harry being a Horcrux but I do like the way JK made it almost necessary for Harry to have won. My annoyance with it is that I defended the fact that he was not by saying that we were told that a Horcrux is made by a spell. Which means it had to be intentional. The fact that she pulled out that it happened by accident pisses me off. Kind of a cop out if you ask me. I would not be so upset if Slughorn had left the creation of Horcruxes a little vague. At least the scar did not disappear or anything like some had suggested. Aside from that fact all of my predictions were pretty well correct. I think just about everyone new the truth about Snape and Lily in Order of the Phoenix after the pensieve scene didn't they? All in all I loved it and am sad to see it go. Of course, I have young kids you are just wanting to hear these stories. I am sure I will be reading them for years to come.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:12 p.m. CST

    TheOneOfBlood

    by TheAntagonist

    I am glad I am not the only one that thought that. I was like "damn" when she "kissed him like she has never kissed him before". My wife thinks I'm a perv. She's right

  • July 23, 2007, 4:12 p.m. CST

    The Hallows were in the book because...

    by Doctor_Sin

    That was the key to showing what a selfish dick Dumbledore had been in life. It also gave the story a SUPERUNDEFEATABLE wand for Voldy to go after, highlighting again his arrogance and ignorance in not knowing where *true* power and strength comes from.<br><br> When Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldy would never understand children's stories and the like...that explains the whole 7-book series where Dumbledore plays "Where's Waldo" games with the kids to help them. Voldy doesn't get it and thinks nothing more than "I need the badass Superwand."<br><br>He would never have known about the other two Hallows, because he didn't have a child's sense of wonder and exploration. He never read that fucking book of fairy tales. He had no clue.<br><br>So, the Hallows are more than "another quest for the kids." They serve to show: 1) Dumbledore wasn't this spotlessly squeaky-clean goody-two-shoes we always thought he was (which shows his motivation in *being* said goody-two-shoes later) - this bookends Snape NOT being the slimy little prick he *seemed* to be; and 2) That Voldy was so arrogant, he thought his Horcruxes were safe...so he could have a Mythic Superwand to go hunting for, in order to defeat Potter - because he realized something was "up" with their two wands.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:16 p.m. CST

    Oh, and my wife and I each won bets

    by Doctor_Sin

    She won for guessing Snape had the woody for Lilly. I won for the "Harry is a Horcrux" thing.<br><br>However, we were off on our "expected body count" gambles. She thought Hermione would die and I said either Snape or Hagrid would snuff it protecting Harry. Well, Snape - kind of, but not really. So it doesn't count. LOL

  • July 23, 2007, 4:17 p.m. CST

    WE NEED .. WELL AT LEAST I NEED A BIG GREAT EPILOGUE!

    by ludmir88

    ABOUT ALL THE CHARACTERS, ALL OF THEM!!!! AND SNAPE IS STILL THE MAN. WHAT A TRAGIC CHARACTER REALLY.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:28 p.m. CST

    Snape lurves Lily

    by elysion

    I didn't expect this one -- the only reason I wasn't super surprised was because I'd heard the theory somewhere, but I didn't think there was enough evidence for it so I dismissed it. Seriously, what is there? Lily scolded James and Snape calls her a Mudblood. How could anyone guess that he had a thing for her [and she felt nothing]!? That explanation chapter is probably my favorite though, and I thought the whole "look at me" thing was a cool touch.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:30 p.m. CST

    PicardSucks

    by TheAntagonist

    I don't think she will write about the offspring from the Epilogue. I would like to read a side story about how everything went down at Hogwarts during the year. How Neville, Ginny, Luna and the DA dealt with Hogwarts etc. While obviously not as exciting it would be fun to see how everyone made their way to that crucial intersection in the Room of Requirement. I'm sure some brillian fan will write a Fan-Fic. Wish I could write for crap.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:32 p.m. CST

    I don't think I get Harry Potter

    by Dapper Swindler

    Therefore, the books are bad and everyone who likes them is dumb. Or wait, wait, wait a minute. Maybe just because I don't like something it doesn't necessarily mean it is bad, maybe it just means I have differing opinions and tastes. This is what is called humility - and its a completely foreign concept to talkbackers.<p> It's true I'm not a fan of Harry Potter, but I'm willing to accept the varoaciousness of the fans as evidence that there is something good about it that I haven't picked up on yet. I don't think anyone could follow all these details, rules, and logistics of a work of fiction unless there was something of quality. <p> So, I don't sit around claiming that everyone else is dumb for liking Harry Potter. Yet, there is some fiction that I think is dumb even though it is popular. Like that Transformers movie - that was pretty ding dang dumb.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:35 p.m. CST

    I just want more Quidditch

    by Doctor_Sin

    Maybe Harry became a Quidditch Talent Scout. Ron would be a great Quidditch commentator or sports news writer. I think it's fun to speculate about their careers or whatever, but I don't want any more Harry Potter books that sort of come up with new wacky adventures just to have them. Only if there are stories to be told.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:38 p.m. CST

    The Deathly Hallows

    by ra2bk

    I actually think something like the Hallows would have been the only possible thing she could've done with Harry later in life. Harry goes on a quest for the Hallows because he knew Dumbledore was interested in them yadda yadda yadda he discovers they aren't worth it. As they were included in the book I felt they were ok and i understand hte significence, but i felt they weren't needed when what she had built up already is taken into account.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:45 p.m. CST

    i just want to know???

    by raquin

    how the hell did charlie weasley get to the battle when he lives in Romania???!!! i mean.. i did question his non-presence at the beginning of the battle but then all of a sudden he's mentioned and that's it... and what happened to hagrid's dog? okay okay... i know some of you will say the floo network or apparating but still... charlie just goes and shows up... FRED!!!! i cried when i read that. and it was a nice touch to have the hestrals and buckbeak to show up but what happened to norbert... with the mention of a dragon on the cover i was assuming it was norberta... lol

  • July 23, 2007, 4:45 p.m. CST

    btw...

    by raquin

    i just hope viktor krumb shows up in the last movie... he's gorgeous!

  • July 23, 2007, 4:49 p.m. CST

    I JUST SAW FROM MY WINDOW ...

    by ludmir88

    a car which looks like Ironhide. I just wanted to share this recent event that's all.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:49 p.m. CST

    George

    by redbullmaster

    I wish she have said something about George in her epilogue as with out his brother i can't see him carrying on his joke shop. I can see him as someone who never smiles or tell jokes like he once did.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:53 p.m. CST

    tiredpm

    by Bloo

    I made that same point above, in Goblet we're beginning to be introduced to the entire wizerding world, not just the British. We get Krum and fleur and their schools and at the Quidditch Champs we get snippets of everywhere else (I noticed America and speicifally Salem were mentioned). We are also told a lot of Albania and Romina. I thought for sure if nothing else we'd get a trip there. Perhaps Voldy wanted to a)establish control over england (and in such a way as mentioned that noone would really notice, isn't it Lupin that says "a virtually silent coup"), get rid of Potter and then look at the rest of the world and they were all waiting on the sidelines (like us American's did in WW2) to see what happens next. However more mentions of it would be nice, or at least travel there and do some research on the Horocruxs instead of camping in the woods for months at a time, not learning anything new, not practicing, just being all angsty.<P>You know while I loved the scene with Lupin and Harry and in the end really was a poignt and turning moment for him, I wonder if they hadn't taken at least one adult mmeber of the Order into their confidence they couldn't have provided some guidence and help, and Lupin would have been the natural choice for that postion. Just my thoughts.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:53 p.m. CST

    tiredpm

    by Bloo

    I made that same point above, in Goblet we're beginning to be introduced to the entire wizerding world, not just the British. We get Krum and fleur and their schools and at the Quidditch Champs we get snippets of everywhere else (I noticed America and speicifally Salem were mentioned). We are also told a lot of Albania and Romina. I thought for sure if nothing else we'd get a trip there. Perhaps Voldy wanted to a)establish control over england (and in such a way as mentioned that noone would really notice, isn't it Lupin that says "a virtually silent coup"), get rid of Potter and then look at the rest of the world and they were all waiting on the sidelines (like us American's did in WW2) to see what happens next. However more mentions of it would be nice, or at least travel there and do some research on the Horocruxs instead of camping in the woods for months at a time, not learning anything new, not practicing, just being all angsty.<P>You know while I loved the scene with Lupin and Harry and in the end really was a poignt and turning moment for him, I wonder if they hadn't taken at least one adult mmeber of the Order into their confidence they couldn't have provided some guidence and help, and Lupin would have been the natural choice for that postion. Just my thoughts.

  • July 23, 2007, 4:53 p.m. CST

    Raquin

    by AudioKarateKid

    Charlie was probably still in England following the incident at the wedding. There would be no way he'd go back to Romania and continue working with dragons after he witnessed the Death Eaters invading his brother's wedding and seeing several members of his family forced into hiding. As for Fang, no clue and as for Norberta, she was still in Romania. My question about the book is, did Greyback kill Lavender Brown? And if so, doesn't it seem a little odd that Ron walked right by her body with not a single mention of remorse for her since they have a history?

  • July 23, 2007, 4:55 p.m. CST

    Luna got the shaft

    by Gorrister

    Luna Lovegood is the greatest single character to be introduced since the original book. Unfortunately, after Book 5, she was seriously underused. Yeah, she did more in Book 7 than she did in 6, but I still think she deserved some sort of mention in the Epilogue. She is the only one of the DA members who we do not hear anything about. So we are left in limbo as to her fate.

  • July 23, 2007, 5:01 p.m. CST

    Please Rowling close the circle once and for all

    by ludmir88

    you are not yet finished your story!!!!!

  • July 23, 2007, 5:01 p.m. CST

    not just luna

    by jonnystevens

    a whole mess of important characters got the shaft as far as not getting their fair share of time in the story. george at the end? hello! but not just at the end throughout the whole book.

  • July 23, 2007, 5:19 p.m. CST

    Trollus Repellus! (*waves wand*)

    by Doctor_Sin

    They'll never get through our protective charms now.

  • July 23, 2007, 5:34 p.m. CST

    She completely nailed it.

    by CatVutt

    I've been fairly critical of some of the mis-steps in this series...GOF and OOP are horribly bloated books in dire need of a real editor...but this thing is taut and suspenseful, and delivers on virtually everything you could want from it. There's a couple places where it REALLY starts to bog down with exposition, the most egregious example being stumbling across old mates in the middle of flippin' nowhere to provide needed information, but that sorta business has been around since Book 1, frankly. I cringed a little, but it wasn't deal-breaking. And it is a bit dense with the wand business, but all that sorta ties in to the fact that Voldy put so much effort into finding the obviously fickle Elder wand anyway rather than being more protective of his soul. I was prepared to be somewhere between thinking it was just okay, and lambasting it, frankly...I wasn't convinced she'd pull it off. But color me impressed. She stuck the landing.

  • July 23, 2007, 5:37 p.m. CST

    I loved it - one question though

    by FrodoFraggins

    First of all I thought it was a great ending to the series. Yeah the epilogue was a bit short, but it covered the important characters. It's sad knowing that this series is over. It's not great literary work, but the characterizations are pretty damn good. And the books make for fun/easy reading.<br> <br> Now for my nitpicky question. When describing the invisibilty cloak, harry said something like "It's infallible, noone has ever seen us under it." But didn't Dumbledore and Mad Eye Moody both see him under his cloak?<br> <br> If someone like Moody can see through the cloak, am I to believe that voldermort wouldn't have a means to do so as well? That was my only real gripe though. I thought it was a moving and fitting end to a great series.

  • July 23, 2007, 5:46 p.m. CST

    The only "clunky bit of text" for me was...

    by Doctor_Sin

    When it took a couple pages to explain that they had been taking turns spying on the Ministry and were planning to break in. JK sort of laid out the explanation after (seemingly) hinting around at the kids knowing stuff about the Ministry and them looking at scribbled maps.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:09 p.m. CST

    ElderWand

    by RetroActive

    Someone spoke earlier about how GrindelWald lost to Dumbledore even though he had the ElderWand. It's because he stole it, therefore, it never manifested its full power. It was an ordinary wand for him. Whereas, Dumbledore won it in a duel, thereby making him its true owner.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:11 p.m. CST

    By the duel I meant...

    by RetroActive

    the duel with Grindelwald.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:14 p.m. CST

    BTW...

    by RetroActive

    Did anyone else notice how the language jacked up in this one...what with the "BITCH" line from Mrs. Weasley being the most paramount? Although that was expected. But the use of the term "effing" here and there was a bit over the top, almost unnecessary.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:27 p.m. CST

    On the movies

    by mr_moppet_1973

    I dont think they will do a double film but a rather long one as by then the kids that grew up reading them will be able to sit for it. It also wouldnt surprise me if after the films are done that WB turns the books int a TV series that gives all the characters their full story arcs, they'd be crazy not to.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:37 p.m. CST

    Frodo re: Harry's Invisability Cloak

    by Bloo

    mad Eye could see with his special magical eye that could see through things, etc. It was obvioiusly a one of a kind device and very helpful because his is the only one mentioned in the entire series, although it's not mentioned I would guess that it is an invention of Dubledore's similar to Deluminator. I think it's helpfulnss and it's value of being a one of a kind as well as belonging to Moody is why Umbridge had it installed on her day. It was obviously one of a kind (being a Hallow and all) but not invulernable, as the Marauder's Map was also able to recognize Harry on it. I think it's value came from the fact that it never faded, neve lost it's charm, never tore, etc. Dumbledore was a very strong wizard and could see things in a way that others couldn't due to his abilities and skills. Again I don't think i's invunerable or anything but again, it's magic came from the fact that it wouldn't fade or lose it's charms, etc.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:43 p.m. CST

    The whole thing is sort of a magical WWII allegory.

    by ZeroCorpse

    Voldemort is Hitler. Deatheaters are Nazis. "Mudbloods" are jews. House elves, and other non-human creatures are homosexuals, Black people, and Communists. Like Hitler, Voldemort is in search of magical items that will allow him to defeat his enemies (Hitler sought several legendary items, thinking they'd make him powerful). <p> The whole thing is about how racial purity is the goal of a madman and his regime, and this is especially clear in the chapters where muggle-borns are being judged and sentenced to Azkaban (Auschwitz) for not having the proper proof of their bloodline. <p> I think this was brilliant work. Anyone who keeps calling this a "kids' book" is a fool. They market them in most of the worlds in both a youth and adult edition, and we here in America have only got the Scholastic version, so it has the stigma of being a kiddie book. Reading the last three makes it clear Rowling is not writing with children in mind, nor is she sparing her vocabulary or dumbing anything down. If these are kids' books, then I daresay that Dan Brown, John Grisham, Nora Roberts, Nicholas Sparks, and Jodi Picoult (among others) should also be considered kids' writers, because they are ALL a damn sight less complex and skilled as Jo Rowling.<p> I started out HATING the idea of Harry Potter (I felt she'd ripped them off, but that case turned out to be full of holes) and now I stand with guys like Stephen King and the later Kurt Vonnegut who both expressed their belief that J.K. Rowling would be on the "classics" shelf with Baum, Carroll, Stoker, Hemmingway, Twain, and others of that ilk. She's got a gift for narrative that has rarely been seen, and even if her ideas aren't entirely original, her way of assembling all the pieces into a final work of art is. <p> I'm sorry so many of the trolls here don't like her or think Potter is a kiddie book, but I would say you're the same people who come into my bookstore with your friends and whine and proclaim out loud "I don't read!" while looking at the magazines for the next issue of High Times or DUB. <p> Or perhaps you're the elitist pricks who walk around talking about Burroughs and Vonnegut like you spent last summer hanging out with them, and simply refuse to "lower" yourself to reading anything that doesn't carry the Snobbish Literati Seal of Approval. <p> A FINAL WORD, ABOUT THE MOVIES: <p> They've gone and fucked up, bigtime. They cut out important plotlines and characters in previous movies, and now they've forced themselves to a point where half of Film 8 will have to be cut out or re-written. They've screwed it up. I say they should stop now and start working on a television series so that they can cover EVERYTHING, from EVERY BOOK, in fine detail. Keep some of the people from the movies. I can't think of anyone but Maggie Smith, Robbie Coltrain, or Warwick Davis in their roles, but recast the kids and film it fast-- In one-hour increments-- and let us see the background stuff. The character interaction. The GROWING UP. The romance. The angst. The anger. The little moments that make this a great series. The characters that got cut out from the movies but who NEED to be here (House elves, Peeves, Bloody Baron, Mundungus Fletcher, etc. etc. etc.) -- A TV series that runs seven seasons or more would be great.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:44 p.m. CST

    So here's the geek MOVIE debate...

    by Big Dumb Ape

    Assuming the 7th film keeps the structure of the book and ends with the epilogue, who should play Harry -- or any of the others, for that matter -- as an ADULT?<p>You have to figure there are already a lot of actors speed dialing their agents to try and win those bit cameos, simply for fun and to earn a novelty place in film history.<p>I mentioned to a friend the other day that I thought it would be fun if "Adult Harry" was Dr Who himself, David Tennant (Hey, the British would probably love that) till she reminded me he had already been in one of the films...

  • July 23, 2007, 6:47 p.m. CST

    The swearing issue

    by Doctor_Sin

    These aren't "kids" anymore. If real-world kids swear from age 9 and up and can drink alcohol at a much younger age than in the US, then Rowling is guilty of nothing more than truly and honestly presenting us with believable characters who act as they would in real life. That's why we care about them - get over the swearing.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:47 p.m. CST

    mr moppet

    by Bloo

    unless they animate it, I don't think people (fans) would accept anything other then the actors we've gtten to know in the series and you know for sure the 3 main leads aren't going to go for that after investing close to 10 years or so in this movie universe.

  • July 23, 2007, 6:52 p.m. CST

    ZeroCorpse

    by Bloo

    my only problem with calling these classics is that in 30 or so years ar we going to hve the same ideas of motercycles (will a flying motercycle seem all that magical?), will computers be used in the same way, how about television, newspapers, PlayStations. It's a similar problem in some of the Narnia books, Magican's Nephew (one of my favs) and LWW being the most obvious examples

  • July 23, 2007, 7:07 p.m. CST

    "take on history" author Harry . . .

    by WX1

    <p>. . . Turtledove RULES in the revisi'/"what if?" hist'ry category.</p> <p>Start with "Guns of the South" -- AK47s lovingly supplied by time-trav'lin Aryans (complete with nitroglycerin pills for Gen' Lee's bad ticker and instant coffee [!] for the boys in grey!). How come no director's stepped up to handle this guy's books? Adaptation of "Guns" should be handled by Tarantino methinks!</P>

  • July 23, 2007, 7:07 p.m. CST

    "take on history" author Harry . . .

    by WX1

    <p>. . . Turtledove RULES in the revisi'/"what if?" hist'ry category.</p> <p>Start with "Guns of the South" -- AK47s lovingly supplied by time-trav'lin Aryans (complete with nitroglycerin pills for Gen' Lee's bad ticker and instant coffee [!] for the boys in grey!). How come no director's stepped up to handle this guy's books? Adaptation of "Guns" should be handled by Tarantino methinks!</P>

  • July 23, 2007, 7:22 p.m. CST

    Honestly, just clicked on once . . .

    by WX1

    <p>. . . not twice, three times a post :) . No "mod'" here to x out double post?</p> <p>Yeah, sorry 'bout that; I swear (OK, just one song reference per post, too), only clicked on once, like how I'm gonna do right NOW . . .</p>

  • July 23, 2007, 7:26 p.m. CST

    House Elves

    by Starlord

    I have been really looking forward to the wrapping up of a number of arcs, Snape, Neville, and of course Harry. All those ended in a more or less satisfactory manner. But I was disappointed that there was not some closure on the House Elves other non-humans. There was some interesting passages with Kreacher and Griphook. But then nothing, did Hermione take up House Elves rights? Did their lot improve, or like in real life(tm) cases like this they ended up no better off or even worse.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:27 p.m. CST

    SoylentMean and re:Turtledove

    by Bloo

    I know the context, but your point is oot, in the Civial War books, the context is very clearly the cival war, however in Potter (and to the same degree Narnai, which I mentioned as well) there is litle mention of the time frame (aside from LWW which mentions "The War" but doesn't flat out say what war, only if you know history and what was happening in England at that time will understand) I'm not saying people won't get the point and be able to enjoy it, but it will have lost some of it's immedicacy. Narnia and Potter both suffer from this, trying to make things at the beginning cmfortable for the reader by establishing it in it's current time frame but not flat out mentioning it (what year it is) and so when you read it, you immediatly place it in the current time frame you're in ntil something arachic takes you out. See that's the difference between a Civial War novel and Harry Potter. A civil War novel will firmly establishit's taking place in the Civil War, Harry Potter doesn't establish time only place, to give it a more timeless feel at the beginning but there are little things meant I'm sur to allow the current reader to identify with what's going on in the Dursley's but takes you out of the timelessness of the books. To me the most glaring example is the mention in I belive CoS but it may be in PoA of a playstation. Comuters and tlevisions and cars, and motercycles sure I can live with those to a lesser degree, because they won't be fading away anytime in the near future, but that PlayStation mention really threw me out of the story for a split second.<P>However I'm glad that we agree that Turtledove is indeed a great writer of "What If" fiction<P>another writer I'm surprised Hollywood hasn't picked anything up from is Caleb Car, he's another historian that while doesn't neccassairly do "what if" fiction, hasn't written some fine historical fiction and one really good sci-fi novel that takes an interesting approach to it by looking at it through a historian's eye.

  • July 23, 2007, 7:39 p.m. CST

    SNAPETRON KILLS OPTIMUS DUMBLEDORE! BAY...

    by Err

    will direct the 6th movie!

  • July 23, 2007, 7:56 p.m. CST

    Bloo...

    by Valebant

    All that and Harry Potter was born 31 October 1980. Right? The timeline in the books is already ten years past. In any event, I don't think references to things like the Playstation date books nearly as much as they do movies. Watch F/X or HACKERS. Funny scenes now talking about having to look up two dossiers in the police computer library... how can we do it... Brian Dennehy's character: I KNOW! We can use TWO computers!<p> Any how, I think the books are OK, I've read them all now, finished the 7th on Sunday. I think I would've preferred a different Weasley brother "snuffing it." Ah well.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:04 p.m. CST

    guys, I just reliezed something

    by Bloo

    in the last book, she does date the series, by putting the dates that James and Lily died in 1980(81) something like that...thanks to Valebant for jogging my memory, however Valebant Harry's birthday is the 31 of July not October, 31 October was when Voldemort tried to kill him if I remember correctly, so in one sense "Harry Potter: The boy Who Lived" was born that night.<P>so I guess all my points are thrown out the window, thanks for listening to me rant on something that doesn't require a rant<P>now if I can rant on the fact that harry and co didn't become Animagus

  • July 23, 2007, 8:14 p.m. CST

    Cinematic Closing Battle

    by toshiro-solo

    Is anyone else amped to see the final battle in Hogwarts? If only to see Trelawny, bug-eyed geek that she is, launching crystal balls at Death Eater heads, I'm in. On a wholly unrelated note - Alan Moore guest starring on an episode from the upcoming season of the Simpsons? First guest on that show in years that I'm excited to see. Is there ANYONE they can't get?

  • July 23, 2007, 8:18 p.m. CST

    Doc_Sin re: Swearing Issue

    by RetroActive

    There's nothing to get over. And this isn't the real world, and using the fact that they drink at a younger age is irrelevant. None of the characters swore to that degree in any of the other books outside of a bollocks or bloody hell here and there. It wasn't that big of a deal, just an addition that seemed goofy. PLus, just use the F word then. The whole, "we all aged with the characters" implies that only children who mirror the age of the characters read the books, when obviously, all ages read them. So, either acknowledge my observation, say why you agree or disagree, and then get over yourself.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:21 p.m. CST

    re: Cinematic Closing Battle

    by RetroActive

    That would be awesome. But I hope they don't blame it on budget constraints like they did in OotP, where they wasted twenty minutes making us watch Voldy make a huge, fiery Dragon. The fight in the book was so much better.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:25 p.m. CST

    RetroActive:

    by toshiro-solo

    Swore to WHAT degree? Ron gives with an "Effing", which is about on the level of a "bollocks" as far as a euphamism for a genuine curse word, and which you freely admit was used previously. Ron's mother - in the heat of a battle that she's fighting to protect her children - calles her opponent a bitch. If you were to catalog how many of Carlin's 7 dirty words were used here, you'd be coming up pretty clean. I guess mostly I disagree with your post because the swearing was maybe slightly increased, but not on a level that stuck out for me. If you consider the shift of the books as starting off at a "G", then you certainly wouldn't get any further than a "PG" as far as language goes in any of these books.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:29 p.m. CST

    Retro

    by Bloo

    i belive that they started using the "effing" in either OotP one or twice or HBP, I can't remember but yeah. What really I wasn't expecting was Hermione's use of "damn" at not being able to find something. yeah it's something my 17 y/o brother would say, along with the effings and then out of noweher Mrs Weasly's "bitch", I enjoyed it but man, I dn't know if my 10 y/o sister is ready to hear that<P>on the other hand, I can't wait to see the movie just for Sprout and Neville setting up plants, Trewlany throwing crystal balls, etc. what really impressed me was that they used like Sprout and Neville in the area they knew, herbology, it just to me reinforced the idea that no area of schooling at Hogwarts is wasted.<P>btw can anyone confirm did Firenze die? I know i read that he ws wounded in the side, but I don't remember if he died or not, that's one area of the battle I would have liked to have seen more, centaurs going berzerker on DeathEaters

  • July 23, 2007, 8:33 p.m. CST

    Another note...

    by RetroActive

    I always assumed that his parents were closer to 30 than 20 when they were killed. How are they going to explain that in the movie when all of the actors who play his parents' friends/classmates are closer to fifty or older? Obviously, just a nitpick. But it's hard to imagine Snape (Rickman) in the movie claiming to be 38.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:35 p.m. CST

    My take and a shout out to Doctor_Sin

    by The Rondo Hatton Blues Explosion

    Not much to add that hasn't already said. Dug the book, would have liked a bigger epilogue, etc. <p> As for filming the end, as I was reading it, I just figured they'd use the original cast, with make up effects to age them. <p> Doctor_Sin, "Bad Ass SuperWand"? Didn't they tour with P-Funk back in the day? :)

  • July 23, 2007, 8:40 p.m. CST

    a movie question...

    by Bloo

    how in the world are they going to explain the locket and it being at 12 Grimwald place, plus the fact that it's under the Fidelus Charm in the last movie, any ideas peoples

  • July 23, 2007, 8:47 p.m. CST

    Bloo & Toshiro-Solo

    by RetroActive

    Bloo...I think you understood my point in the context I was placing it. And you know...they never did tell you if Firenze lived or died. I'm assuming he lived because JK named all people of significance that died...even poor little Colin Creevey. Toshiro, well said. Obviously, it's a euphimism. And the G/PG rated cursing is virtually non-existent anyway. It didn't bother me, but if I decide to read the story to a ten y/o, I'd prefer to say bleedin' or damn to "effing". I'm not complaining...I just noted it as I read and thought it funny. But if you want me claim a position, place it on the BANNED BOOK LIST of smarmy, dirty, pro-pagan little children's books! Seriously...I think I'll spend a lot more time assuring my kids that a large snake can't live inside a person's skin after killing them compared to the 2 second glaze over saying, "effing? It's just an expression". I'll probably read all 7 books to them when they're ten and damn the month of dry mouth to follow!

  • July 23, 2007, 8:48 p.m. CST

    re: "effing"

    by brainofmorbius

    i probably say effing more often than i say "fucking". it sounds funnier. and im 22.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:54 p.m. CST

    re: movie question

    by RetroActive

    No idea...especially considering that Kreature had .006 seconds of screen time in this one, and I don't even think that they've introduced Mundungus' character...have they? I smell a lot of awkward, concocted plot devices in movie 7. I also hope Dumbledore doesn't look as confused when he gets killed the way he did fighting Voldemort in OotP. I mean, the chapter was titled "The Only One He Ever Feared" or something like that. And the movie made it seem the other way around.

  • July 23, 2007, 8:57 p.m. CST

    You're right, BofM

    by RetroActive

    effing does sound funnier.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:07 p.m. CST

    I Haven't Read Any of the Harry Potter Books

    by kevinwillis.net

    And I don't think I'm going to, no offense to Rowling. I've seen the movies, and that's enough Harry Potter for me.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:11 p.m. CST

    I

    by blackwood

    laughed, cheered, mourned, railed, held my breath and chased the words until "All was well."<br><br>I am sated. JK did a fantastic job. I hope she never writes about Harry Potter again, because what she's done should just stand as it is - flawed, rambling, complex, brilliant.<br><br>I was already grown when I started the series but, you know, in a small way, I feel I've grown a bit just the same.<br><br>I realize everyone's descended into nerdiness and particulars, but I just wanted to send my thoughts out into the world.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:14 p.m. CST

    effing

    by Bloo

    is effing funny and somewhat more acceptable. and yeah Retor, no introduction of Mundungus at all nor the locket. Course I didn't see the movie until a couple of hours before the book release so I kept checking my watch so I MIGHT have missed it. And yeah you know what the Dumbldore/Voldemot fight reminded me of, Yoda vs christoperh lee in AOTC. It as cool but at the same time, you're thinking, "does this old man even have a chance" and I really can't wait to see Ralph Fiennes really ham it up in movie 7. And you know his make up is just what I imagined when I read GOF. It's amazing and I'm glad to see that they went with that route instead of computer warping his face into something like Ralph finees and a snake...something Conan O'Brian would do

  • July 23, 2007, 9:16 p.m. CST

    blackwood

    by Bloo

    you know if she never writes about Harry Potter again, I'll be satisfied, but I don't think we've seen the end, I think in about 7 years we'll hear the rumblings of a new harry Potter book, probably something here hasn't even thought of and I think we've thought of every possible way she could write more into this universe and in these char. heck I wouldn't mind seeing her take or approving a very talented writer to do kind of a Ender's Shadow type book ooking at things from like draco's perspective

  • July 23, 2007, 9:22 p.m. CST

    FUCK YOU Rupee88!!!

    by Doc_Strange

    Yeah you motherfucker.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:23 p.m. CST

    Bloo

    by blackwood

    Another author for another perspective... I could dig it. But I don't know if I'd ever feel the need to read it.<br><br>If, and it's a capital If, JK ever went back to the series, I would like her to do it as a much older writer - seasoned with dozens of books not about Harry Potter - and write about a much older Harry at the end of his days. Something solemn, refined and quite unlike the series. It might be a little silly, but I think it would be kind of incredible.

  • July 23, 2007, 9:26 p.m. CST

    I see your poin blackwood

    by Bloo

    I want to see her branch out, step away from fantasy lit for awhile, take a stab at something strong and provocative, maybe a coming of age story, I don't know. I'd also like to see her try and write about somethng outside of England. I know it's her familair ground and what she knows, but even King wrote about other places then Maine.<P>I'm kind of intrigued by the idea of the stories from another perspective, I may reread the whole series just to get into a 2ndary char. head(s) and just as a writing excercise try it out

  • July 23, 2007, 9:28 p.m. CST

    scorpius malfoy

    by brainofmorbius

    what a great name. anyway, i thought JK was consulted by producers on things to include, hence them not editing kreacher out of OOTP? why the frig didnt she mention the two way mirror, the locket, etc? they must have a contingency plan of some description...

  • July 23, 2007, 9:47 p.m. CST

    brainofmorbius

    by Bloo

    I hope so, because I don't know how they are going to get around it, as they are imporant to the coming books...however again I wasn't paying that close attention to OOTP movie, but didn't Sirius give him the mirror

  • July 23, 2007, 10:32 p.m. CST

    Missing stuff--

    by zb.brox

    I think the vast majority of omissions can be written around. they can drop the two-way mirror--the only thing it really does is get Dobby to them, and I think they could have Dobby show up when Harry happens to mention his name, or similar, as House Elves seem to have the ability to sense being summoned. And with the locket, because they introed creature they don't need to into the locket. Once they figure out who RAB is and see the fake locket, they can ask Kreacher if he's ever seen a locket among Regulus's things. I think most things are like that.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:35 p.m. CST

    Sorry, never got the attraction.

    by Bronx Cheer

    I don't think she's a very good writer.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:46 p.m. CST

    Her prose isn't fantastic.

    by zb.brox

    But if you happen to like meticulously plotted stories with very strong narrative, deftly drawn characters and relationships, and strong, humanistic themes, then she does great work. She introduces vast and disparate elements and manages to build them to seemingly inevitable conclusions, all based around the natures of strong, often complex characters.

  • July 23, 2007, 10:50 p.m. CST

    How Voldemort died

    by performingmonkey

    I loved the book but I think the part at the end where Harry tells Voldemort that Harry's the master of the Elder Wand and Voldemort then pays no heed to that and casts the killing curse anyway, killing himself, seems a little stupid. I know bad guys are meant to be dumb, overconfident and that's always their downfall but COME ON, Voldemort is supposed to be more than the average bad guy. The explanation of who was the master of the Elder Wand was a little contrived anyway. Draco Malfoy disarmed Dumbledore of the Elder Wand so HE became the Wand's true master, then in Deathly Hallows Harry disarms Draco but not of the Elder Wand because it's buried with Dumbledore, but this action STILL makes Harry the true master of the Wand because the Wand somehow 'knows' that it's last master (Draco) was disarmed. Suddenly the whole series hinges on this stupid setup. I have a feeling that Jo Rowling probably had to work hard to write herself out of that corner and that's why the whole thing seems somewhat contrived.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:02 p.m. CST

    Book 7 movie budget

    by Gorrister

    I dont' think anyone has to worry about the budget for the final battle in the movie version of Deathly Hallows. They can easily same two thirds of the budget for that battle seeing as nearly half the story revolves around 'camping' scenes. Can't see how those scenes can possibly eat up the budget. LOL

  • July 23, 2007, 11:13 p.m. CST

    Nice job, Quint and Moriarty

    by AndrewFroug

    Just wanted to give you guys due props for such an intelligent, honest discussion. It reinforced some of what I had been thinking and gave me even more to think about, and it's this kind of thing that I really appreciate about your site. I like all the exclusives about comic book movies and I will always remember how hilarious Moriarty's review of McG's Superman Returns draft was, but this shows some real heart, and that is a special thing indeed. Keep up the good works, guys.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:13 p.m. CST

    I'd also like to add...

    by zb.brox

    ...having read more of the posts above, people (ringwearer9) should not write long, complicated critiques of books without being completely sure they understand the issues they're complaining about. She abandons the idea that characters who may seem good can be bad, and characters who may seem bad can be good? Honestly...

  • July 23, 2007, 11:18 p.m. CST

    Yeah, a LOT of the plot was contrived

    by Gorrister

    Don't get me wrong, I love HP and loved this book. But that doesn't stop me from being disappointed with certain parts. There was a LOT of plot elements crammed into this book that probably should have been at least hinted at in earlier books. It was especially painful to read the scene where Dean Thomas (and a few others) 'just happened' to camp near Harry and then 'just happened' to discuss the exact topics that Harry needed to hear to advance the story. I can't help but be critical of Rowling for some of the same reasons I am critical of George Lucas: for not *really* knowing where the story is going (at least, not as much as they let on to the public) and then trying to cram too much story in at the last minute. Don't get me wrong though. I like Potter a LOT better than Star Wars. LOL (But only because the Prequels ruined it for me)

  • July 23, 2007, 11:20 p.m. CST

    it's midnight. time to get a dirty harry potter talk!!!

    by ludmir88

    naah just kidding.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:45 p.m. CST

    Harry Potter and the Pointless Plot Device

    by lordgrimplemort

    Don't get me wrong--I really liked this book, and loved parts of it. I just wish she hadn't thrown the Deathly Hallows in. Ultimately, I thought the whole idea was kind of pointless and the explanation of how Harry became the master of the "undefeatable" wand that people kept being defeated while using, was a little lame. She should've just stuck with the horcruxes being Harry's quest. I remember thinking the same thing about book 5--I really enjoyed it, but when I was done the main plot about the prophecy seemed kind of pointless and in the end it was wrong. They risked everyone's lives and Sirius died because they wanted to defend a prophecy that wouldn't have changed anything if Voldy got it. All it would have done is make him want to kill Harry, which he already did. But it said "neither can live while the other survives"--well they both managed to live for almost 18 years after the prophecy was made so it wasn't very accurate was it? Still a very good book, but she should have trimmed some of the camping scenes and left out the Deathly Hallows altogether. That space could've been used to give a little more info on what happened to Harry's friends and Voldemort supporters after his defeat. I especially wanted to see Umbridge and Greyback die horrible deaths and a happy future for Luna and others. I'm sad that I just liked the book, when a few little changes could have made it flawless.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:51 p.m. CST

    "just happened to camp there"

    by ZeroCorpse

    Harry, Ron and Hermione were only going to places that were common wizarding havens. They were likely to find all sorts of people that they knew in the places they camped.

  • July 23, 2007, 11:51 p.m. CST

    The Elder Wand thing.

    by CatVutt

    Maybe I read more into it than was actually there...but the whole dissertation about the Elder Wand reeked more to me of Harry seeding doubt in Voldemort and maybe even the wand itself about it's allegience. That the whole thing was intentionally convoluted and ridiculous and fickle, which Harry took advantage of and pushed the tide in his favor. I simply didn't read it as being face-value 'Malfoy defeated Dumbledore and Harry defeated..blah blah blah'. I took it as Harry saying 'Is it? Are you sure? Can you really beat me?' That sorta thing, to make him beat himself and maybe even to sway the wand. Am I the only one who took that away from the ending?

  • July 23, 2007, 11:56 p.m. CST

    (Major spolier)

    by JimboTHC

    Harry potter sucks and the only men that read it are closeted homosexuals with fantasies about young british boys and there "Wands"

  • July 23, 2007, 11:56 p.m. CST

    where is the real ending?

    by ludmir88

    WHERE?

  • July 24, 2007, 12:01 a.m. CST

    ZeroCorpse: WELL SAID!!!!

    by Playkins

    I agree spot-on. And I also REALLY wish that when they finish the WB movies, they'd go back and do the whole series as a BBC miniseries (or even just an entire show. It would be the only way to REALLY do the books justice. Couls H.P. fans imagine how cool it would be to have a whole season dedicated to one or two books?<p> Of course, everyone would know EXACTLY what would happen, but it would still be cool.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:07 a.m. CST

    enough of fantasy films for this decade!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    by ludmir88

    please no more!!!!

  • July 24, 2007, 12:11 a.m. CST

    Neville - The real hero of book 7 (spoilers)

    by Razorback

    Neville is the only one, other than Harry, who stands up to Tom Riddle. Like Harry, Neville has accepted a mission and is determined to carry it out (and like Harry, does).

  • July 24, 2007, 12:14 a.m. CST

    but Severus Snape is the man, pour bastard

    by ludmir88

    damn!!!!!!!

  • July 24, 2007, 12:16 a.m. CST

    Don't forget... over 45 minutes of OOTP was cut.

    by W3bzpinn3r

    The original cut of the film was 3 hours, but WB cut alot so they could show it many more times a day, and make more money. The director said the deleted scenes will be on the DVD & BluRay discs, and hopefully show things such as Peeves (an actor was hired for the voice) and the locket. On ABC, they have the first two Potter movies with 15+ minutes of added footage from the books (Filch admitting he's a squib, etc). I hope they eventually release uncut versions of all the movies.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:18 a.m. CST

    Joss Whedon: Please Direct This One!

    by belledame

    I'm satisfied on the whole. This is an appropriately epic finale on a larger scale than the previous books. The solution is fairly confusing, but I'll buy the Harry died to save the Hogwarts troops part. Snape was truly tragic, but let's not turn a blind eye to his real character. He may have been Dumbledore's man, he may have been protecting Harry out of love for Lily, but he was cruel to Harry and almost all the other kids because that's who he was. Harry was not the only kid who despised Snape. Everyone outside of Slytherin did. What's funny about Dumbledore's original explanation that Snape and James had an enmity similar to Harry and Draco's is that Snape and Harry are the picked on outsiders and James and Draco are the smug, spoiled, mean ones. One thing I loved was that, when it was over, Harry wanted to go up to his bed in Gryffindor tower and sleep. It must have been lonely up there all year for Seamus and Neville.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:31 a.m. CST

    Neville and Snape both get their moments

    by lordgrimplemort

    Neville's parts in the last book were indeed some of the perfect passages that I wouldn't have changed if I could. I always hoped he would have a moment to shine, but never imagined he would directly stand up to Voldemort on his own. I couldn't ask for more (except to kill Bellatrix, but I won't push it). And I always went back and forth on Snape. One minute I was sure he was an evil bastard, the next I just knew he killed Dumbledore at his request. In the end he was probably the bravest of them all. To spend all that time with Voldemort, who was a great mind reader, knowing what would happen if Voldy found out he was working for Dumbledore, Snape was in constant danger. I just wish he had been the one to tell Voldemort that instead of Harry. I would have loved to see him tell Voldemort that by killing Lilly, he signed his own death warrant, assuring that Snape would help Dumbledore protect the boy who would eventually put an end to Voldy. He could have had a more heroic death, but the pensieve memories made up for it. I'm glad Harry saw first hand all that Snape had done for him, and that he had loved his mother. I think he could've ended up with her if he hadn't called her mudblood and had chosen his friends better.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:33 a.m. CST

    alfonso cuaron? available? no? thank you!!!

    by ludmir88

    AZKABAN WAS GREAT OF COURSE, BUT I WOULDN'T DARE TO GIVE HIM THIS FINAL BOOK TO HIM. NO WAY!!! WHY? HE WILL TAKE TOO MANY LIBERTIES IN THE PRODUCTION. WARNER HAS TO MAKE THIS LAST FILM AN APOTHEOSIC FINALE.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:45 a.m. CST

    the last 2 movies

    by lordgrimplemort

    I wish they'd gotten a different director for the next one. I think they are using the same one as OOTP, right? I didn't really dislike it, but didn't love it like the others. He cut too much out, I thought. And the Dumbledore/Voldemort battle should have been more like the book. And on the topic of Dumbledore, does anyone else hate the guy who replaced the original. I've seen him in other movies and he's a good actor, but he's no Dumbledore. Richard Harris was perfect and I think they should have tried to find someone more like him, who actually looked like Dumbledore and acts kind and gentle like him. The new one seems like kind of an agitated a-hole a lot of the time. Everyone else has been perfectly cast, I wish they'd just say "hey we screwed up" and replace him for the next 2 movies.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:54 a.m. CST

    Oh yeah...

    by pervy elf fancier

    Ginny was definitely going to give it up to Harry for his birthday. I told my roommate that and got a look of absolute shock and horror in return. But, honestly. And I was totally laughing before the battle at Hogwarts cause I was so sure Ron and Hermione were getting their pre-bloodbath freak on. Imagine my disappointment when they come back with Basilisk teeth...sheesh.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:55 a.m. CST

    A Note on Spoilers

    by DarthDooku

    If you're into "Harry Potter" and don't want the book spoiled, the solution is simple, and it's what I did. Open the book up, minimize your time online, don't go looking at places that may have spoilers, and you'll be fine.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:02 a.m. CST

    and...

    by pervy elf fancier

    Someone needed to gently pry the Deathstick from Rowling's hands during the writing process. I was so sure that at least Lupin would make it, stupid me. And I won't even go into Fred...I still cry sporadically throughout the day when I happen to think of the twins. I agree with whoever said it that seeing how George, in particular, coped in life without his other half would have been nice to know...

  • July 24, 2007, 1:05 a.m. CST

    I KNEW Snape was innocent!

    by TheGhostWhoLurks

    Cool guy. One gaping plothole, though:<p>HOW'D the Sword of Gryfinndor get back in the Sorting Hat???

  • July 24, 2007, 1:18 a.m. CST

    SPOILER ALERT!

    by TheRealSeveren

    You guys are dorks. <p>By the way, I respect all of you.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:25 a.m. CST

    Did anyone else understnd Snapes last line. (spoilers)

    by choincemail85

    So Snape bleeding from the throat and seeping memories like steam, which is a great image by the way. The last thing he says to harry is "look at me." Quint and Moriarty talk about that line and how he wanted Harry to acknowledge him, sort of a not dying in vain thing, but to me that's false. Snape want's to look at harry for one reason only... He has Lily's eye's and the last image he wanted to see before he died was something that would link him to the only woman he loved. Hell maybe he even pretended that he was looking at lily and not harry. Am I the only one who thought this.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:28 a.m. CST

    I agree, choincemail...

    by TheGhostWhoLurks

    I believe Snape wanted to look into Lily's eyes one more time before he passed on.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:31 a.m. CST

    ditto choicemail

    by pervy elf fancier

    that's exactly how I read that as well. amazing moment.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:33 a.m. CST

    TheGhostWhoLurks

    by DarthDooku

    Perhaps the sword didn't belong to Griphook at all, it was always part of the Sorting Hat. All speculation, but there's probably some silly explanation like that, that the Sorting Hat was ancient magic, it could summon the sword from wherever it currently was in the presence of a worthy Gryffindor.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:36 a.m. CST

    It's kind of funny...

    by choincemail85

    There was so much intensity at the end of the book that when I came to "prince's tale". I was a little pissed, cuase it's like "Crap I've got read thrity pages of backstory, when we're in the thick of things", but that chapter turned out being one of my favorites. Now Kings Cross on the other hand seemed repeatitive and halted the story more than moved it forward. Maybe that's just me though.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:48 a.m. CST

    The sword...

    by Jiggah

    Was the sword not summoned before? When Harry was fighting the Basilisk? I thought the Sorting Hat had the ability to call the Sword from anywhere.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:54 a.m. CST

    theres no use worrying about the 7th film..

    by Director17

    the whole series is pretty much fubar by this point. I'll wait for when they do a 3d virtual reality 7 hours per movie redux in 2020 something.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:03 a.m. CST

    epilogue

    by darwinwins

    i enjoyed the hell out of the epilogue because the ending was finished a long long time ago. it was a very fluffy ending but the context of it was quite fitting and you really had to read between the lines. it's harry's tale and it ends being harry's tale instead of the multiple endings of the LOTR series. naturally harry would still be friends with hermione and ron who were pretty much destined from book one to end up together and we'd hear about ginny since he's been wanting to sleep with her since book six and she played a significant role in six and seven. but those are minor things compared to him having a godson whom he treats the way he imagines he himself would have been treated had his family and extended family lived and raised him. his son is named after his teacher who took him under his wing and taught him many things and most impoortantly, after snape, whom he hated and loathed till that pensive moment. he realized that snape did love him and could never get close to him and explain the motivations in life out of shame and for their mutual protection. snape looks at harry because he sees lily's eyes but also the eyes of the son that he wished he could have had. snape could not ever let anyone else know about his life and his feelings because he had to protect harry. and on a personal note, the scene of hermione and ron kissing was pitch perfect. she built it up from a really sideways angle and no one saw it coming -- ron defending the house elves and their safety probably caught her off guard than anyone else -- and she didn't drag it out. it was basically two quick paragraphs and off they went with the rest of the story.

  • July 24, 2007, 5:10 a.m. CST

    "Certainly no sucessor to Tolkien"

    by Lost Prophet

    And with that Ringy proved once and for all (as if it was needed) what a narrow minded twat he is.

  • July 24, 2007, 5:15 a.m. CST

    Tonks Got the Sex

    by DOGSOUP

    and had a baby. Then Died. Poor werebaby.

  • July 24, 2007, 6:05 a.m. CST

    choicemail's right about Lilly's eyes

    by Doctor_Sin

    JK always said that was important to the 7th book - that Harry had his mom's eyes.

  • July 24, 2007, 6:23 a.m. CST

    Spoilers

    by ROBE

    I am just amazed I managed to read the book with no idea what was going to happen except for knowing about five of the chapter titles. A great ending to a great series. People who knock the Potter books and then admit then only read half way through the 1st novel always crack me up. As for somebody bringing up Tim Hunter, have you never heard of Ponder Stibbons (Discworld 1990 novel Moving Pictures) and Luke Kirby (2000AD story Summer Magic 1988)? There is nothing new under the Sun.

  • July 24, 2007, 6:40 a.m. CST

    ludmir88, are you writing at a bar?

    by Bronx Cheer

    "pour bastard?" Are you admonishing the barkeep to refill your glass? ;)

  • July 24, 2007, 6:43 a.m. CST

    What is the appeal of Harry Potter?

    by messi

    I don't get it, I just find LOTR much cooler and in terms of magic I rather read stuff on Vertigo.

  • July 24, 2007, 6:44 a.m. CST

    A handy (but strange) tip

    by Leopold Scotch

    If you want to get into the books but can't get past the early ones(especially if you haven't seen the films), I got hooked on the series by reading the third one first (Orisoner of Azkaban). I know it doesn't make much sense, but I just picked it up because I was bored one day. As it turns out, it was the perfect introduction, because the first two don't have many crucial events which constitute the "saga": not that they aren't good, but the story which exists across all the books doesn't REALLY kick off until the end of the third book. The first couple of chapters of the first three or four books also gives a kind of summary about who's who and what's going on. So you can read the third book and know after the first two chapters that Ron and Hermione are Harry's best friends, that his parents were killed in by Voldemort, and that Dumbledore is the headbmaster blah blah blah. My tip is to read the third book, which has very little irrelevant stuff (read "fat to be trimmed"), but a brilliant narrative, then go back and quickly read the first two, which aren't as engaging (and if you read them first, you might not get as far as the third one). So I'd go 3, 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7. After the third book, you can't really come into the series without having read the previous ones because there's so much stuff about the chamber of secrets and older characters coming back and stuff like that. In other words, if you read book one and didn't like it, then read book two and still can't get into it, you'll likely abandon the series. But if you read book three, you're pretty much going to want to read book four, then you'll be properly invested.

  • July 24, 2007, 6:47 a.m. CST

    I promise I'm not illiterate

    by Leopold Scotch

    But "Orisoner" should be a word. I won't even comment on "headbmaster" though.

  • July 24, 2007, 6:56 a.m. CST

    Does Tonks and Lupin's kid

    by Frijole

    turn into a pink werewolf? Hmmm...

  • July 24, 2007, 7:37 a.m. CST

    Harry Potter - Liked the FanFic Better..

    by techspec

    I actually liked the Fan Fic better, the 600+ page one floating around the internet. I read the final a few weeks ago (The one that came out friday) and the fanfic several months ago. I think she kinda lost her groove, it was not bad, it was not great. I hope the do some sequals.. nuff said.

  • July 24, 2007, 8:06 a.m. CST

    Ringwearer, you ignorant slut.

    by DocPazuzu

    What a surprise, seeing such reams of fatuous tripe clanked out on your semen-encrusted keyboard. Not being the gentleman and scholar that Lost Prophet is, I feel no compunctions about calling you the insufferable jackhole that you never fail to be. Aside from that, I wish to express my support for every word he said while debunking your sad treatise, as well as those of others who have dealt with you in the past and have called you on your horseshit this time around as well. <p> Your pointyheadedness becomes all the more apparent (and hilarious) because you obviously possess some form of rudimentary intelligence and seek to wrap your ideas in sophisticated reasoning. The latter, however, fails miserably. <p> I won’t test the patience of the other talkbackers by addressing your post point by point, but I will mention at least one thing, namely the truly mind-boggling mental acrobatic feat in which you on the one hand bemoan the less-than-good aspects of certain of the protagonists, and on the other accuse Rowling of not being complex enough in the realization of her characters, essentially calling them black and white. Could you have missed Rowling’s entire point about free choice in a world of grayscales any more even if you tried? <p> You also criticize Rowling’s handling of house elves, conveniently ignoring the damning portrait she paints of the wizarding world’s class mentality. Could you please explain to us how your personal deity Tolkien’s portrayal of the “evil” race of Orcs in LOTR is more complex and/or nuanced than Rowling’s depictions? <p> And I suppose Snape’s “nothing deeper” motivation of “a childhood and teenage crush” is keeping in the tradition of other shallow and similar motivations such as Romeo’s love for Juliet or Tristan’s for Isolde? That other talkbacker was right, you really do need to get laid sometime. <p> I sincerely hope that Peter Jackson gets handed the reins for Deathly Hallows if for no other reason than to watch you simply explode from frustration.

  • July 24, 2007, 8:16 a.m. CST

    Last Chapter SPOILERS - for the 1% who haven't read it

    by Brody77

    Am I alone in not wanting that 19 years later chapter to be in the book? I really didn't want to be told what his future holds, I wanted to be able to picture his further adventures! I felt as though JK stuck that chapter in just to piss off the film maker & publisher money men, as if to say "like fuck there'll be more books". That's just me. Other than that, loved the book - she should get some kind of award. Felt genuinely sad when Tonks & Lupin died - never saw it coming. Knew at least one Weasley would go, but my money was on Percy after he jumped back into it. This will be a nightmare to make - it'll be shredded to f*ck. I really liked though how it felt a lot of stuff the film makers had cut, was suddenly very important to the plot here (IE - the ghosts). One question - what happened to Fudge? Not one mention in the book. And why could Umbridge not die a horrific death. Who's side do you think she'd have been on in the end fight, the crazy deluded bitch. I really hope they shot more footage for Order of the Phoenix, it's too short.

  • July 24, 2007, 8:17 a.m. CST

    As for the book... (spoilers)

    by DocPazuzu

    ...I loved it. Very satisfying conclusion to the series. I, too, had a bit of a problem with the pacing in the middle when our heroes were on their extended camping trip, but I realized that the purpose of them being gone for several months was so that the changes brought about by the new regime would seem more plausible, as would the establishment of the underground radio broadcasts and the resistance movement's hardening at Hogwart's. <p> There were many wonderful and goosebumpy moments, the best ones being Neville's figurative "fuck you" to Voldemort's face, and -- perhaps most of all -- frumpy and doting housewife Mrs. Weasley's rousing battle with, and ultimate beatdown of, übercunt Bellatrix. An "Aliens moment" if there ever was one. <p> Oh, and I'm definitely of the opinion that it was Lily's eyes Snape wanted to see. He knew that Potter had taken his memories, which was enough to placate his need to explain to Harry what had happened. The eyes thing was one last personal thing that Snape wanted for himself before he died, perhaps to remind himself of what he had sacrificed so much for.

  • July 24, 2007, 8:19 a.m. CST

    "Ya wanna buy some deathsticks?"

    by DocPazuzu

    Who knew Rowling could fuck up Attack of the Clones even more than it already was?

  • July 24, 2007, 8:50 a.m. CST

    peter Jackson

    by Lost Prophet

    That is a cracking idea. As much as I was kind of "meh" about ROTK he would do a belting job with book 7. <p>And having Ringy spontaneously explode through sheer apoplexy would only make it more amusing.

  • July 24, 2007, 9:22 a.m. CST

    jackson would be a horrible choice

    by darwinwins

    ron and harry would keep trading longing glances. no thank you. my choice would be ... i don't know but for the cinematographer, i'd choose darius khondji.

  • July 24, 2007, 9:34 a.m. CST

    Fred and George...

    by Kezilla

    I'm guessing that Fred became a ghost and hangs with George at the joke shop.

  • July 24, 2007, 9:35 a.m. CST

    I disagree

    by Lost Prophet

    Longing glances between ROn and Hermione wouldn't actually be that bad in this case. And the battle would be cool. Or maybe not- they'll probably get a British Director for it. In that case I'd normally scream Neill Marshall, but I think he may be the wrong man for this.

  • July 24, 2007, 9:43 a.m. CST

    Doc...

    by Bloo

    I hadn't given much thought to the radio broadcasts until you brought them up, but in retorspect, I loved the way she incorparted Lee Jordan into the mix. Here was a 3 tier char. who honestly I would have been happy with as just a mention at Fleur's wedding and she used something she established in the first 5 books (Lee's commentating at Quiddith) to help establish and remind us of the resistiance movement.

  • July 24, 2007, 9:51 a.m. CST

    Directior

    by Bloo

    if they really want to go for a pesduo spielberg look but not you know get Spielberg. I would suggest Joe Johnston, knows how to work SFX, practical effects, has worked with young adults before, and done coming of age stuff. Just a suggestion though.

  • July 24, 2007, 10:07 a.m. CST

    I'd be happy with Cuaron...

    by ronniethebear

    But I'd be REALLY happy if we could get Guillermo Del Toro on board instead. After Pan's Labyrinth, it's obvious he'd be pretty much perfect.

  • July 24, 2007, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Spoiler jerks in line

    by HootDad

    We picked our copies (one for me & one for my daughter) at Borders at a "midnight party". They gave out wristbands that were color-coded telling you which group you were in in order - I went to Borders in the AM and got "orange" which was the first group. One BIG reason I wanted to get it early was so that we whould not run the risk of sitting there for an hour and having some jerk read part of the book and running through the store yelling some big spolier.

  • July 24, 2007, 10:11 a.m. CST

    Guillermo would be perfect!

    by Brody77

    Good shout there - way better than the fat hobbit lover. (or is he still skinny?)

  • July 24, 2007, 10:23 a.m. CST

    Guillermo would be great

    by Bloo

    however, and I could be wrong on this, wasn't either the majority of the fans or JK herself dissapointed with Curoan's take on the HPniverse? given their close realtionship and her preference with working with British directiors on GoF (to me dissapointing and not very magical coming off of PoA) and Yates on OotP and HBP, I see her wrapping things up that way, maybe not with Yates but I have a feeling it'll be a Brit directior.

  • July 24, 2007, 10:23 a.m. CST

    Snape's last line

    by arrangedletters

    Of course it was to see Lily's eyes again. How could anyone miss that?

  • July 24, 2007, 10:25 a.m. CST

    Jackson will never do it

    by HootDad

    Unless he gets the chance to completely re-invision the whole world. And I doubt that would happen. I'm betting on Yates - who I think did quite a good job with OotP

  • July 24, 2007, 10:32 a.m. CST

    I loved it, but...

    by GaiustheBrave

    did anyone else feel it was a bit bloated at parts? Maybe that was caused by the rush to finish it in one sitting so I wouldn't hear any spoilers. All in all, good though. I even got goosebumps. Not to mention that Rowling does a good job of painting the world in shades of grey, rather than letting every good guy be 100% good guy. Yeah, she says, the characters and their society are flawed (whose isn't) but they're still worth fighting for. And, please, please, as much as I love this world, let this be the end. Don't ruin it with a sequel series like so many other writers/filmmakers have done in the past.

  • July 24, 2007, 10:40 a.m. CST

    Small Triumphs

    by Worlds Most Benevolent Dictator

    I would love to see another book, this one describing in detail the happenings at Hogwarts in the past year. Ginny, Neville and Luna fighting the good fight. Quidditch with really only Ginny left. Slytherin's hugest House Cup points lead ever (with Snape as Headmaster). Who is in the Slug Club. The attempted theft of the sword. The Carrows. Would also be a perfect book to catch up on Umbridge, maybe coming to Hogwarts to help end the uprising, only to get her due (love to have someone find out she's muggle born and cart her arse off to Azkaban). And when Harry comes back - all the things that happen in the fight (Lupin, Colin, Tonks deaths, Greyback's end, etc.), everyone's reaction when V says he's dead (Ginny in particular...) Here's hoping...

  • July 24, 2007, 10:41 a.m. CST

    Jackson would be PERFECT to adapt "Hallows"

    by Ringwearer9

    Rowling's action is retarded and poorly imagined, and Jackson is NOT going to see that as a problem. He'll just film it exactly as it is in the book!

  • July 24, 2007, 10:54 a.m. CST

    ringy,

    by Lost Prophet

    How is the action in Hallows more "retarded" than some of it in LOTR? seriously? <p>Seeing as you didn't answer yesterday- How did you enjoy the latest book on Middle Earth written/ edited by Christopher Tolkein?

  • July 24, 2007, 10:54 a.m. CST

    Outta here

    by Lost Prophet

    look forward to your reply, ringy, you crazy obsessed bitch, you.

  • July 24, 2007, 10:59 a.m. CST

    I'm off the idea of Jackson directing

    by Lost Prophet

    now I know Ringy would like it. Half the fun has gone.

  • July 24, 2007, 11 a.m. CST

    Ringwearer

    by Frijole

    Does it make your little pee-pee hard to be a miserable bastard who is universally reviled?

  • July 24, 2007, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Questions for Ringy.

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I'm not a Potter fan, but in your opinion, would this book have been helped if there were some giant bats?<P>Second, did Rowling describe any particular sunsets? If so, what colors did she use in her description? Were any of them "boring" (i.e. red & blue)?<P>Finally, when the film of this is made, will you have an aneurism if any CGI fire is rendered like the natural COLOR OF FIRE?!

  • July 24, 2007, 11:14 a.m. CST

    Rowling is the James Cameron of Children's Lit ??

    by Ringwearer9

    Not surprising, then, that creeps lik e DocPazuzu, with his right wing mentality, would love the "aliens" moments in this stupid last installment. Harry and Friends are all being Arnold Schwarzenegger. Even Mrs. Weasely gets to be Ripley and kill someone! Yeah, it's all in the fun of killing people we hate. What a lesson for the children! Hate, and murder, and what fun it all is! It was so inspirational to see Ron punch Malfoy in the mouth, especially when he was written to be so annoying and loathesome just beforehand so we could all enjoy the violence! From the very first volume, I saw Rowling as a clueless, and sadistic indulger of her child audience, and despite being convinced by some brilliant fan-fiction that she was simply hiding her disapproval of such indulgence, she's shown her true colors in this last volume. It always was repetetive formula, and this last act was repetetive, down to the backfiring curses and wands destroying Voldemort. But DocPazuzu loves it cos Mrs Weasely acts like Ripley and kills another woman while shouting "Bitch". Well, DocPazuzu, we all know, is full of hate. Murder fantasies are what keep him happy.

  • July 24, 2007, 11:30 a.m. CST

    Ringwearer

    by DocPazuzu

    Wow, that was almost as funny as when you accused the Weasley twins of abusing children. I find it ironic that someone so hideously po-faced and humorless can elicit so many laughs. <p> Somewhere right now, Dr. Frederic Wertham is smiling in his grave. <p> But what about actually answering my question, you gloriously demented twat?

  • July 24, 2007, 11:32 a.m. CST

    SPOILER....Gryffindor Sword at the end

    by Jwnikita

    Didn't anyone else wonder where Neville got the sword? My theory is that the "fake" in the headmaster office wasn't really a fake, it was the real one, and the story of the real one being in Gringott's was created to throw Valdemort off. How else would Neville have been able to kill Nagini unless the real sword was at Hogwarts?

  • July 24, 2007, 11:39 a.m. CST

    Sword

    by Frijole

    This has been covered earlier in the talkback, but in case you missed it: The sword presented itself to Neville (via the Sorting Hat) as a true Gryffindor in a moment of need- the same way it presented itself to Harry in the Chamber of Secrets.

  • July 24, 2007, 11:42 a.m. CST

    Does anyone know...

    by Lucasblows

    ...is Ringwearer9 retarded?

  • July 24, 2007, 11:50 a.m. CST

    According to Ringwearer...

    by DocPazuzu

    ...if you enjoy the awesomeness of Aliens, or enjoyed witnessing the demise of some truly evil fuckers in Harry Potter, then you are by definition a right-winger and immoral. This also includes left-wingers and moderates (like myself). Teh Ringy has spoken.

  • July 24, 2007, 11:52 a.m. CST

    Wow.. simply wow

    by Evil Hobbit

    I can't believe that after 12 years of devoting my geek heart to the franchise it finally comes to an end. It's an odd feeling but what a great joy it was. With still 2 films ahead of us and a themepark we can be sure the hype will continue a little longer but this book realy realy realy blew me away. They gonna have a hard time turning this in a film though, almost everything is essential and can not be skipped in the film. Some of the deads realy moved me, specially <br> <br> SPOILERS SPOILER!!!<br> <br> Dobby! <br> What a beautiful moment when Harry digs his grave. And the ending, what a blast. Not sure still how to think of the adult Harry with kids. It was great to see how he respected Snape so much in the end that he called his son after him. I truly think this is one of the finest and best series ever produced for the youth and adult readers alike. Brilliant. Thanks JK for 12 beautiful years.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:03 p.m. CST

    Dude, seriously

    by ronniethebear

    Asking how Neville pulled the sword out of the Sorting Hat is like asking how Harry did it in The Chamber Of Secrets. Jesus fucking christ. REDUNDANT.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:07 p.m. CST

    ringwearer ringwearer ringwearer

    by Bloo

    are you saying that there are "no" revenge moments in LOTR, what about Tolkin's finish in Bag End when our furry little hobbits rise up and lead a revolution and kill Saurman and wormtounge

  • July 24, 2007, 12:25 p.m. CST

    Someone mentioned the Discworld novels...

    by TheRealSeveren

    Now that is a series of movies Ive been waiting to see! If done right, they could be something really special.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:27 p.m. CST

    BUCKBEAK --

    by jimbojones123

    Did she have to? Was this a cause that BUCKBEAK really needed to fight for?

  • July 24, 2007, 12:39 p.m. CST

    Bloo, there was no Revenge killing of Saruman and Wormy

    by Ringwearer9

    Frodo ordered Saruman be left free, because he once was a noble wizard. Wormtail, in a fury, stabbed Saruman, and the hobbits shot Wormtail before Frodo could stop them. It was portrayed as rather sad and regrettable, not "fun" like the Potter books seems to have settled for.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:40 p.m. CST

    Sorry Ringwearer

    by Frijole

    but if killing someone who is trying to kill you is wrong, then I don't wanna be right.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:41 p.m. CST

    I love people who say they were underwhelmed...

    by Novaman5000

    and then admit that they only read the wikipedia summary. You people, you should just shut the fuck up right now. How can you expect to be overwhelmed by a two page internet summary?<p> Everyone fighting at the end was DEFENDING their world. Their last fucking stand. If you were in their position, ringwearer, you wouldn't shoot to kill? You wouldn't celebrate when you won? You have to be a joke.<p> The only real complaint I have is a bit of the early pacing was off and the epilogue was too sappy for my taste, and kind of unnecessary. All in all this was an outrageously satisfying conclusion to a beloved series. If you're too much of an arrogant SOB to get into these books, then you have my condolences.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:45 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9

    by antonphd

    What the fuck are you talking about? What about "I am no man". Do you actually read or do you just blather about shit you don't know anything about?

  • July 24, 2007, 12:46 p.m. CST

    Did you even read the books RW?

    by Novaman5000

    Doesn't seem so. If not, you're hardly informed on what death is like in the stories, are you?<p> I seem to remember everyone celebrating when Sauron was destroyed in LOTR... Sick bastards.

  • July 24, 2007, 12:46 p.m. CST

    Let me get this straight, Ringy...

    by DocPazuzu

    ...do you mean to say that there is no such thing as a thrilling depiction in popular culture of a no-regret fight to the death between good and evil which is also "moral"? <p> And if there is, what defines it as "moral"? <p> Seeing as how you avoided my earlier question and ducked my skewering of your points, perhaps you can be goaded into answering this one?

  • July 24, 2007, 12:55 p.m. CST

    Hey Ringbearer...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    FYI - the name is Gríma WORMTONGUE.<P>And you have the nerve to call yourself a Tolkien fan...

  • July 24, 2007, 1:03 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9

    by Lucasblows

    Mrs. Weasley kills Bellatrix because she was trying to kill her children. You wouldn't kill to protect the lives of your children? I'd hate to be your kid.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:07 p.m. CST

    Why is the epilogue 19 years later?

    by The Dude Abides

    Does anyone know the significance of the number 19? Is it an homage to Stephen King?

  • July 24, 2007, 1:15 p.m. CST

    Apologies, Nice Gaius, Wormtongue it is.

    by Ringwearer9

    I haven't had breakfast. But at least I remembered how his death went down, unlike Bloo.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:22 p.m. CST

    bananafest destiny...

    by Grendy

    I totally ganked your 'axl rose- dementor's' line for my myspace. it made me giggle like...well, someone who giggles and is good at metaphors. Also... I loved the book, cried like a girl (which I am, so that's convienient) when Dobby died and liked the epilog, even. Good show, Ms. Rowling. Thanks for many enjoyable hours with g-d heavy-ass books.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:38 p.m. CST

    CHRISTOPHER NOLAN should direct it

    by Col. Tigh-Fighter

    He can do action, and mean and moody. You know it to be true!<p>If not, the 'Berg.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:38 p.m. CST

    RW9: 95% of your original post was spot on

    by The Decider

    Well, 85-90% anyway. The thing that is so annoying about HP is the constant happy accidents JKR uses to move the plot forward. Neville needs to get the sword? Well, Voldemort will just happen to provide him with the means to it. Snape needs to provide crucial information to HP? He'll just happen to be discovered in the final seconds of his life so that HP can find out how to defeat Voldemort. Dumbledore is supposedly the wisest and most intelligent wizard ever, yet he seems to rely almost solely on good luck! I got so sick of all of the convenient plot points that must've taken JKR all of 2 minutes to come up with. I mean, Snape goes to give the sword to HP, why does he put it at the bottom of a frozen pool that HP nearly drowns in? Oh, it's so Ron has a way to save HP's life and get back in his good graces. However, Ringy, you are totally wrong with all of your criticisms of the morality of the books. That is the one thing that JKR hit out of the park. Most of the characters at different points play a hero, at other times a villain, and at other times a victim, which is a profound truth of life.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:41 p.m. CST

    A History of Magic

    by billfro

    I'm quite satisfied with the way this ended. I'll join in with the rest of these discussions in a minute. <p>For those of you crossing your fingers for there to be no more books lest they soil the impact of these, don't you really want to read "A History of Magic"? Or, "Hogwarts: A History"? I would love to have fleshed out the magical world prior to the events of the Potter series. It would be JK's "Silmarillion" book.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:45 p.m. CST

    Oh yeah

    by The Decider

    And the biggest plot problem of all: The explanation of how Harry obtained ownership of the Deathstick. Ridiculous.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:57 p.m. CST

    Dude Abides

    by lordgrimplemort

    I wondered about that too. After the ending I was so happy that, for all it's flaws, at least it was'nt the Dark Tower ending. Then I saw that "19 years later" and said NOOOOO! I know SK is a fan of JKR and maybe they are friends (he put a Harry Potter reference in DT) , so maybe a reference to the way 19 kept popping up in the Dark Tower. I hope not, because that's one of the first things I remember making me think that series was taking a huge downturn. It was sooo stupid, everything being 19. Then adding himself as a character, etc. I had my problems with this HP book 7, but if I compare it to the end of the Dark Tower, Deathly Hallows looks like the greatest book ever written.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:57 p.m. CST

    Decider

    by Frijole

    I'm not gonna argue your accusations of convenience. There are definitely some major cases of that in all the books... but truthfully, they don't really bother me. However... as for Snape and the Sword, Dumbledore specifically said that Harry could not know that Snape had gotten it for him (Harry knowing the 100% truth about Snape at any point before before either Snape or Voldemort's death could have been disastrous) and that it should be retrieved in a moment of courage and valor.

  • July 24, 2007, 1:58 p.m. CST

    Slightly off topic...

    by pervy elf fancier

    So it's been confirmed that Naomi Watts will be playing Narcissa Malfoy in HBP (love it!)...But who will Joseph Fiennes and Stuart Townsend be playing then? 'Cause they seem to be confirmed as well... Tom Riddle Sr and Bill Weasley, respectively? Incidentally, for Merope and Morfin, I would love to see them cast Susan and John Lynch.I'm still pretty miffed that they think Christian Coulson's too old to play teenage Voldie. Give me a fucking break. Maybe I'm just used to American TV where you pretty much have to be in your mid 20's to be on a "high-school" show and I've never understood the discussions of the possibility of the actors growing out of their parts. Until I see a picture of Coulson with liver spots, I'm staying pretty confident that he could have easily stepped back into Tom Riddle's shoes, thus providing us with the character continuity that they have, admirably, somehow managed to retain. Off the point, there truly is something amazing about the way that the cream of the crop of British thespians are willing to sign on to do what are tantamount to mere cameos in these films. It's really something kinda special. But on a slightly worrying note, has anyone else read the article where Yates says he's considering Bill Nighy for Scrimgeour but can't make a decision because it's still not certain that the character will MAKE IT INTO THE SCRIPT?????? Fuck me, I didn't realize not referencing the complete overhaul and new tack of the Ministry was an option. I predict that, unless they split DH into two films (thus allowing Warner Bros. to milk their cash cow that much longer), that last movie is going to be a clusterfuck of information and exposition that should have been explained in previous films, and it'll be a low down, dirty shame.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:05 p.m. CST

    Anybody else notice Harry's kid's initials?

    by Acappellaman

    His younger son's initials were ASP (Albus Severus Potter). Like most things in the Potterverse, I don't think this is a coincidince. I think he's meant to be a Slytherin. I wonder if he'll be able to speak parseltongue like good ole daddy. That'll make family gatherings fun, won't it? A son in Gryffindor and one in Slytherin? Woof.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:06 p.m. CST

    Tolkien and such...

    by Valebant

    Ringy and Pazuzu... The Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter are two completely different beasts. If anything, Harry Potter should be compared to The Chronicles of Narnia. However, since the comparison is being forced between characterization in LotR and HP, orcs and house-elves... I have to throw in my two cents. Orcs are evil. They are the corrupted souls of elves. The elves from whom they were corrupted weren't even good in the first place. Orcs CANNOT be good. They're basically demonic slaves. They are the offspring of fallen creatures. <p> Fate plays a much stronger role in LotR than in HP. Norse influence and all that. <p> In any event, Rowling's books are on a different shelf than Tolkien's, Ring; comparing them doesn't really make much sense.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:17 p.m. CST

    AS/S

    by pervy elf fancier

    Maybe young Albus Severus will become besties with young Scorpius (From the naming of children alone, clearly, the Malfoys have a history of child abuse) and he'll bring him home on the holidays. Then they'll end up as a One true Pairing in someone's fanfic and their initials will spell ASS...can't wait.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:17 p.m. CST

    The Epilogue

    by King Sweyn Forkbeard

    My only problem with the Epilogue is that it simply wasn't long enough. Having invested 5/6 years and not far off 3,000 pages on these characters, to have a throwaway scene set nineteen years later that covers only a small part of what happened to a couple of them seems like a bit of a cop out. <P>. I'd like to know if Harry became an Auror. I'd like to know if Luna and Neville got together. I'd like to know a hell of a lot of things more than were mentioned in the book. Rowling's left a hell of a lot of doors open should she ever choose to return to the material. <P>. A Tolkein-esque Appendix would have been a superb addition to the books.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:30 p.m. CST

    Yeah noone celebrated when Saroman, but everyone did

    by Novaman5000

    when Sauron died. He was the big bad.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:33 p.m. CST

    An Appendix

    by Frijole

    would have read like the ending to Fast Times... or Animal House. I think the epilogue gave us JUST ENOUGH information. Jamming any more in would have been pandering. Can you imagine "Don't forget to tell Headmaster Weasley that Luna and her husband Dean are going to be coming over to Hogsmeade to visit George and his wife Angelina and would like to stop in for a visit etc... etc..."?

  • July 24, 2007, 2:43 p.m. CST

    No WAY should nolan direct Movie 7!

    by Novaman5000

    It'll be all nauseating close ups of wands waving and shit. I want to be able to SEE my action. I absolutely HATED the majority of fights in Batman Begins. Yeats did fine, and he's down for 6... if he continues doing well i'd be ok with him doing the final book. As much as I liked Cuaron's adaptation, I felt as though he was too loose with staying true to the story. A better balance could (and should) be struck.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:48 p.m. CST

    Ring

    by Bloo

    I apologize that I accused your hobbits of killing Saruman, when it was Wormtounge. but I did remember that Wormtounge was killed by the hobbits so I wasn't competely wrong on that. But still there was much rejoicing on a what is basically a revenge killing. However as I and others have pointed out, LotR and HP are competely different beasts. Yes they are both fantasy books, but Tolkien's theme (as I and someone else above) was fate and destinity. Lloyd Alexander borrowed this same theme and similar concepts in his Prydian Chronicles. those are two series if you want to compare and contrast should be. They both created self contained universes with as I mentioned the theme of fate and destinity.<P>Rowling on the other hand is similar to CS Lewis and his Chronicles of Narnia. Those books, like JK, deal with choices, the choices we make andhow they affect others. and like Lewis, JK didn't create a self contained magical only world, but rather interegrated this world and had it "spill" over into the magical world. Professor Kirke (digory in MN) could easily be a precursor to Potter, what with his fight against an unstopable evil, help from wise, good platonic female friend who warns him about stuff and he ignores it, coming from a somewhat abrusive household, parents who aren't there, etc.<P>I think trying to compare Rowling to Tolkien is wrong and gets everyone riled up.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:54 p.m. CST

    On the epilogue...

    by billfro

    I'm ok with it being so brief a glimpse at the future. We know that Harry & Co. grow up well enough, and that whatever they're doing, they're happy. And we see that Harry really doesn't have anymore animosity toward Draco, which sorta implies that the war is definitely over and order is restored.<p>If you're discontent with the fact that you don't get to know everything that happens to all of the characters for the rest of their lives, maybe you just haven't accepted that the series is really over. I hear ya.<p>It was arrested development

  • July 24, 2007, 2:55 p.m. CST

    Valebant

    by DocPazuzu

    Agreed, Tolkien is a different beast altogether, but my point was that Rowling's efforts to show the house elves' situation and nature as being the result of social conditioning under a strict and unjust class system was to be commended, whereas Ringy completely missed the point of this in her writing. I used Tolkien's depictions of the orcs as an example of true hardwired behavior in non-human races to illustrate for Ringy just how limited his understanding is.

  • July 24, 2007, 2:56 p.m. CST

    I agree, HP is better compared to The Chronicles...

    by Novaman5000

    But I'll be honest... I think HP is leaps and bounds over Lewis' series. HP is a series that holds up for adults fairly well, whereas reading Narnia now feels like I'm reading "See Spot Run" or some equally watered down children's book. Not to mention the allegories are so heavyhanded it's almost painful. I don't mean to totally trash C.S. Lewis or anything, the books have their place as "classics", but they just don't compare IMO.

  • July 24, 2007, 3:03 p.m. CST

    I think the epilogue was awkward...

    by Novaman5000

    It should have been either shorter or longer, but was sort of stuck in this weird quarter chapter size that gave loads of exposition sort of awkwardly, and at the same time not telling us anything we couldn't have guessed on our own. Ron and Hermione? Ginny and Harry? SHOCKING. <p>It almost read like a fanfic, sort of awkward and too sappy. I did like the final reference to the scar and "All was well", but I think it would have been better served as a one or two page bit of harry watching his child go to hogwarts without so much chit-chat.

  • July 24, 2007, 3:11 p.m. CST

    BananafestDestiny

    by TheBlackSwan

    That Patronus line made me laugh harder than I have in ages. Not even reading the 7th book could fully pull me out of my post-break up rut that I've been in, but I think the Axl line did it.

  • July 24, 2007, 3:13 p.m. CST

    Novaman,

    by Bloo

    I love the Chronicles and some of them are fantastic but agreed that some of them are fairly "see spot fun" however, and as much as I loved Deathly Hallos, I enjoyed Lewis' Last Battle over Deathly Hallows. A wrap up of char. we've come to know in a way that isn't "Animal House", really no lingering questions (except for Susan's fate, which is continaully up for debate but at least she is mentioned) and is satisfying to themes that Lewis was making. Overall though I'll say that HP is better whereas Lewis' conclusion was stronger

  • July 24, 2007, 3:34 p.m. CST

    Horucrux

    by Shazamike

    I gotta prop my bud Nathan for promptly after reading book 6 that Harry was going to be the final horucrux. (tho, i suppose the snake was really in the end) i have skimmed the posts here, and i havent seen anyone talk about nevill...wasnt that cool character development? i loved it, especially when you take the entire series. i have been thinking a lot about future books and if one is made i hope its about him. or my dream (it will never ever happen) is a book about him that spans all 7 books just from his perspective. i honestly think he is a better developed character than most, even Ron.... anyway, very very awesome, satisfying read. i love that the climax didnt have much after (no disrespect to lotr) as Harry's herioism resonated...

  • July 24, 2007, 3:37 p.m. CST

    Why I like the epilogue

    by zacdilone

    After all is said and done, it's all about family.

  • July 24, 2007, 3:38 p.m. CST

    No HP8 please.

    by jimbojones123

    As a follower of EU Star Wars, there already seems to be WAY to much of recapturing the first story for a second go around in the Epilogue. <P> Kid worried about Slytherin. Orphan kid at Hogwarts. Crazy Weasley with his Muggle toys. Draco's kid named Demonno -- er -- Scorpio. <P> But just like the Star Wars EU, the kids start taking on the names of the Mentors. This will start defining their personalities. ANAKIN SOLO -- COME ON. I can thankfully say that the dealing w/deaths by Jo is much better than many deaths in other books. If anybody remembers when Chewy died, it was a major plot point for the next 8-9 NJO books. Jo wraps it up in a page or two and gives the characters the ability to deal with the situation. <P> The most shocking death is still Cedric in the whole series though. He's there -- then he's gone. Still shocked me more than anybody else. <P> This story is done. There is nothing else to tell. I don't remember too many stories that have wraped up all the strings so tightly. There is not much left. Leads path for new starts for wizard/other magical creatures relations. Do we really need to know who is Headmaster 19 years later? Not really. Everything is MUCH better off. That's all that's important. If we do re-inter this world -- please no dark lords. No search for the Elder Wand. <P> Did we ever find out of the scar was gone after Kings Cross?

  • July 24, 2007, 3:54 p.m. CST

    Shazamike

    by Bloo

    I suggested a similar thing somewhere above, a book or more by a different writer but approved by rowling from a different char. perspective, I suggested Draco, but Neville would be good too.

  • July 24, 2007, 3:55 p.m. CST

    The scar...

    by redfang

    It's still there in the second-to-last sentence of the book.

  • July 24, 2007, 3:57 p.m. CST

    Jimbojones

    by Shazamike

    i agree with your point in principal... but there is a difference between anakin solo in a book than vader becomming vader in a prequel of the same janre with the same writer director. Lucas has nothing to do with the books, whereas if JK wants to release more, it would easily be regarded as canon and as a writer i am sure she would do a great job. if someone else takes the source material and messes with it, you are right, we have a problem...

  • July 24, 2007, 4 p.m. CST

    But right now in Post-NJO

    by jimbojones123

    Jacen is about to become a VERY DARK JEDI. What's the new one? Sacrifice or something. I haven't gotten into post-NJO, but I did read the cover while waiting for HP8.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:04 p.m. CST

    the irish time Journalist, literary ed and

    by emeraldboy

    one time booker prize jurist Eileen Battersby did a jaunt through all seven books in a report/review for the paper. Battersby is a potter fan who is the mother of a potter fan said that Rowling has merely borrowed from her contempories while using a style all her own. Battersby admits that Rowling is guilty over-writing but argues that she has a brilliance about getting the books back on track, which she always does. These are books are that are in a way rite of passage story. Battersby admitted that she was dissapointed at the opening of book six but that after that she was astonished at way rowling got that book back on the rails again. I love her descriptive turn of phrase, the colorful sweets and those names albus dumbledore, Snape, Minerva McGonagle, Hermione Granger, Ron weasly, sirius black, reubus Hagrid Lord Vordermort aka tom morvolo Riddle and The malfoy Clan. Her attention to detail puts her far ahead of her rivals. Even down to the joke about Little Whingening Surrey. People in the us who dont understand the whole middle england thing wont get that joke and they think that there is no poltics in these, well em they are wrong. These books are about a mythical boys educations, the friends he makes, the competitive side of the education, the exams, the stress, the bullying, the inspectors. All are indictive of the english education system. I should know I went to very posh school in Bray and I know all about it. I went to a Posh irish school. You have to have gone to very posh school, to understand some aspects of harry potter and lastly they are a love story.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:04 p.m. CST

    Unforgivable Curses

    by jimbojones123

    What is the deal with Harry being able to fall back on these whenever he fells like it. First on Bella with no punishment or even talking too. Then in this book he uses Crucio with MEAN feelings and it worked. Not only did Harry pull the Imperio out, McGonagal used it too in Ravenclaw tower. Now COME ON! She's been the most straight arrow in this thing -- and can pull out Imperio when she feels like it? IT IS EVIL TO USE!!! Then it is never talked about again. Guess you can use the three whenever you want now??? As long as you pretend it is for good at least???

  • July 24, 2007, 4:05 p.m. CST

    My most favorite gag in the whole series --

    by jimbojones123

    Avada Kedavra. The most common magical words in the Muggle word "Abracadabra" is actually the absolute worst and evil curse that can be done in the wizard world. Still cracks me up today that Muggles, if they had the power, would be knocking eachother off left and right for using the phrase to make coins disapper from the palms of their hand.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:07 p.m. CST

    JK was on Friday night with jonathan Ross

    by emeraldboy

    and to the person who said please no Hp8. She will never write another HP book but has not ruled returning to that world at some stage. I am betting that if she does. WE may get something about the young albus dumblsedore. or Tom M Riddle. I think it will be dumbledore. or the founders of Hogwarts.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:11 p.m. CST

    how about PAUL GREENGRASS

    by Evil Hobbit

    for Hallows the movie!! :D Sounds good to me, Bloody Sunday anyone?

  • July 24, 2007, 4:22 p.m. CST

    I haven't seen this yet -- SO RANK 'EM!!

    by jimbojones123

    It was clear that 7 was the masterpiece. It blew the others out of the water. <P> Next would have to be Goblet of Fire. Don't let the movie fool you. This is where the series finally began. It stopped being a kids series at this point. <P> My next favorite is 3. We finally get some defination of characters after the formula sets itself in stone in 1/2. <P> HP 6 was a step in the right direction. A perfect setup where at the end you were left thinking -- they only have 1 -- just 1 of the Horcruxs. They tried for number 2 -- and it wasn't there. The challenge begins with very little result. Sets up 7 to be a sprint.... which it was totally. <P> Chamber really built on the characters of the first book. I was totally sold on this series by the end of the second book. <P> Book 1 was the hardest challenge by far for me. I had to restart a few times. After HP3 movie, I finally started pushin' the book read. I finally made it through and on to better episodes. <P> The biggest challenge though was HP5. It was the longest -- and they turned it into the shortest movie to date. If that doesn't tell you there was too much filler -- I don't know what does. 250 pages to get to Hogwarts??? What's up with that? <P> So 7 - 4 - 3 - 6 - 2 - 1 - 5 <P> What's your pix?

  • July 24, 2007, 4:28 p.m. CST

    I say again: STOP the movies, restart as a TV series!

    by ZeroCorpse

    They cannot possibly repair the damage done by the exclusion of major characters and plot points in the previous films. They need to stop now, and restart with a long-running series that allows them to include EVERYTHING. This is the BBC, for gosh sakes! They LURVE the long-running TV series stories!

  • July 24, 2007, 4:28 p.m. CST

    Endings!!!

    by choincemail85

    So I've ran across a few posts now going into Potter vs. Tower endings. In fact Quint and Moriarty bring it up in there talk back. It seems everyone who can compare the two goes with Potter... Now I loved the potter ending, but this Tower bashing stuff, sucks. The Dark Tower ending was in my opinion absolutly perfect, was it a let down... Hell yeah, but when you think about Tower Lore "Ka in a Circle" and it's the only way it could end. Boo-hoo there's no big war at the end, you should have known Roland would walk alone, it wouldn't be true to the story if he didn't. Now with Hollows, it could have went so many ways, and the end with the Elder Wand, Wanderowner, lore seemed like kind of a cop out. That and yes the Epilogue should have been longer. Now with that said, I still loved the book, love the series, and love what it's done to spark a generation of readers. But when faced with the choice which is better Harry Potter or Dark Tower. The answer seems obvious. All Hail the Tower!

  • July 24, 2007, 4:30 p.m. CST

    emeraldboy

    by jimbojones123

    As Star Wars has taught us -- WE DON'T WANT BACK STORY -- WE WANT PROGRESS. Was there much of anything in the prequels that we needed to know that wasn't already given to us in the OT? Lucas knew VADER toys would sell better than Thrawn toys. But do we really need to know much more at all about early DD or Voldy? We pretty much know everything useful for this. This is also what I fear about a Hobbit Movie. We already know the outcome. It's just a setup for LOTR. Any DD/Voldy/ Founding 4 story would seem like a very bloated Preface.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:37 p.m. CST

    UNFORGIVABLE CURSES...

    by Frijole

    We already had a big discussion on this earlier in the talkback. The Ministry is who deemed the curses Unforgivable and the Ministry is who regulates their use. Back during Voledemort's initial reign of terror, Barty Crouch Sr. lifted the ban on them- if being used to fight Voldemort or his followers/ allies. So, since it was done before... a temporary ban on them this time around can easily be implied. Plus... before the book even gets going, the Ministry has fallen anyway.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:38 p.m. CST

    What doesn't make the HP7 movie?

    by jimbojones123

    I think the Dumbledore backstory with his sister/brother may be cut altogether and redone. I can easily see there be somebody else working at the Inn. Maybe McGonagal was his helper the whole time. That will trim quite a bit of fat right there. We know there isn't a problem trimming things like this -- remember Dobby in 4/5 movies??? Neither do I. Or Freize as a prof??? I don't think it affects the story to have that go away. I also wonder if they tackle Bill and Fluer? Will they just end up back at the Weasley's to dispose of Dobby? Will they get Oldman to Cameo for the resurection stone? I'm sure after the Floo in Goblet. I'm really excieted to see how this film comes together. I still wish Fawks would have had the glory moment in the last movie, but OH WELL.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:42 p.m. CST

    Re: Unforgivable Curses...

    by ZeroCorpse

    Think of them like guns, torture devices, and brainwashing techniques. It's not right, good, or acceptable to point a loaded gun at another human being and pull the trigger without a reason, or for selfish reasons. It's not right or moral to torture someone for personal gain. It's not socially acceptable to brainwash another person into doing your bidding, either. <p> Same for the UCs. They're "unforgivable" because they will result in death, torture, or brainwashing. When used for selfish reasons or personal gain, they're "evil" and thus unforgivable. When using Avada Kedavra in a battle with someone who is most certainly going to use it against you, it's no different than choosing to fire a gun at your enemy because he's armed with one, too. It's the SITUATION which makes them unforgivable...

  • July 24, 2007, 4:45 p.m. CST

    Would love an HP: Meanwhile Book

    by Wed Vid Guy

    I bet there's an awesome story to be told at Hogwart's that we aren't privy to during that 7th year. Wouldn't mind Rowling or someone with her blessing writing a 7th year Hogwarts novel that would play like Bizarro HP and have Neville, Luna and Ginny being the main trio of characters. We might also get some background on what Snape was doing behind the scenes as well.

  • July 24, 2007, 4:46 p.m. CST

    Unforgivable Curses = a damn good last resort

    by Doctor_Sin

    ZeroCorpse hit the nail on the head. Even McG screamed they were going in for the kill when finally going after Voldy and Co.

  • July 24, 2007, 5:12 p.m. CST

    The brother works at the inn

    by Evil Hobbit

    He's in the fifth film as well.

  • July 24, 2007, 5:32 p.m. CST

    I'd like to see more "in-world" books for charity

    by Doctor_Sin

    Like how she did "Quidditch Through the Ages." She could easily do up some more like the ever-referenced "Hogwarts: A History" that Hermione consults in pretty much every story. It'd be a cute way to flesh the world out, present backstory without being too prequel-ish(?), and it would help out charity.

  • July 24, 2007, 5:35 p.m. CST

    on UCs

    by Bloo

    see the the above posts for a better explaintion then I could have done, good job guys.<P>on a HP "8", I can see the Prequel idea, her magican's Nephew/Sillmarion as she has cited Tolkien and Lewis as influences. not neccassary to the overall scheme of things but fun and interesting nonetheless. If she was to go this way I'd rather see the founding of Hogwarts, the full story of the Gray Ghost and the bloody Baron, etc. She could actually do these as a series of short stories/novellas similar to King's Nurses of Eulira story or what I understand the new Tolkienesque book is. I could also see her and would love to see a story set between the final chapter and the epiloge, as I've said above there is a lot of stuff that needs to be worked out, cleaning u pthe wizarding community, trials, rounding up Death eaters, etc. I personall like political/spy type stories and think that might be fun, but again not neccassary. or a "side along story" that details what was going on at Hogwarts, how Lee got his radio broadcast going, what exactly George and Fred were doing, etc etc etc.<P>However I don't see anything coming for at least 7-10 years, allowing her to write other things, to take a break from everything, get away from the hype. I refuse to believe that she is free from Harry, that there aren't or won't be other stories that will brew and devolp in her head. She says this now, but she has just invested what...at least 12 years probably close to 15 years or so from conception to final publication in this world and needs some time away to grow as a writer and a person

  • July 24, 2007, 5:47 p.m. CST

    On what's next for Rowling..

    by choincemail85

    I agree with Bloo, J K definitly needs some time off from and the idea of Novellas to fill in the gaps whenever she decides to go down that road is a great idea. As for next I'd really like to see Rowling do an Adult Novel next, sure Potter is for all age ranges, but I really want to see just how dark and Adult themed she can go when she doesn't have to appease her ten year old audience. That would be very exciting in my opinon.

  • July 24, 2007, 6:12 p.m. CST

    Rowling...

    by pervy elf fancier

    Just read the transcript of an interview she did with Meredith Viera today. She's going to be writing an Encyclopedia of sorts of The Magical World. It'll include all the stories (and backstory) of the people who've been left out of the Epilogue and various other stuff. I'm sure it won't happen for ages, though.

  • July 24, 2007, 7:42 p.m. CST

    Why do people not disapprove of Fred & George?

    by Ringwearer9

    I mean, they are total psychos. They turned Ron's teddy bear into a spider when he was a kid, traumatizing him for life (but apparently Rowling thinks this is just funny), they risked their younger brother's life by almost making him take an "unbreakable vow" which would have killed him if he'd broken it (aww, those loveable pranksters!) and when Ginny was having nightmares in "Chamber of Secrets" they thought it was funny to jump out at her from behind statues (And our brave and gallant hero Harry never thought to do anything about that). In Order of the Phoenix, they traded in illegal dangerous substances for use in their joke shop products, and then experimented on freshman kids at Hogwarts until Hermione threatened to tell their mom (but our good and noble hero Harry didn't twitch a muscle to stop them). They shoved another student (Slytherin's Montague) into a broken vanishing cabinet for the crime of taking points from Gryffindor, resulting in his near-death and possibly permanent brain damage, but it's all okay because he's an evil Slytherin, and he was TAKING POINTS FROM GRYFFINDOR!. Hermione objects, but there's no indication she ever told on them, to help Montague, and our hero Harry, so good and noble, didn't twitch a muscle when he heard about it. So, I gotta ask you, if you don't think Fred & George are psycho for acting the way they did, why not? And why do you approve of an author who apparently thinks it's A-OK to treat such behavior as loveable high-spirited hi-jinks?

  • July 24, 2007, 8:02 p.m. CST

    Oh, and I almost forgot !!!!!

    by Ringwearer9

    They deliberately feed Dudley a "ten ton toffee". Their father disapproves, but there's really no authorial backup or followup to that disapproval. Is it bad for Fred & George to Muggle bait? Or is it fine for them to do it to Dudley because he's so loathesome and treats Harry badly? Everything is okay as long as it's for Harry? Every character acts to fulfil Harry's impulses for him, allowing him to get revenge without lifting a finger himeself? (Alas, I think that's really what F&G's purpose really is). We can't forget what Hagrid did in the first book, trying to turn Dudley into a pig because his father said something nasty about Harry's parents (why not try to turn his father into a pig ... why pick on Vernon's kid?) and no one, not Dumbledore, not Harry, suggests what Hagrid did was nasty, and asks him to undo it ... they have to send Dudley to an actual hospital for surgery. In my mind, this is indulging an audience of children in the enjoyment of cruel behavior, and condoning it.

  • July 24, 2007, 8:09 p.m. CST

    Fred and George are awesome.

    by ra2bk

    Yeah pretty much they're awesome. The first few things you named are just the typical older brothers picking on younger brothers. And the rest of the people had it coming. Since its the magical world, theres really no harm in anything since it can really all be reversed except Avada Kedavra or the other unforgiveables. Also, Dudley looked like a pig, so he turned him into one. I thought it was just a tail, but i forget.

  • July 24, 2007, 8:27 p.m. CST

    How did Xenophilius get that exploding Erumpent horn ?

    by Ringwearer9

    Hermione says it can explode at the slightest touch. Yet somehow Xenophilius managed to get it home and set it up in his house on display without any precautions, thinking it was Crumple-Horned-Snorkack horn, just so it can provide a convenient explosion when our heroes need it. Very convenient, but very insulting to the intelligence of children everywhere.

  • July 24, 2007, 8:33 p.m. CST

    drturing, being an asshole a special British trait?

    by Ringwearer9

    Since a lot of cruel, stupid Americans seem to like the Potter books, I'd say you were wrong.

  • July 24, 2007, 9:27 p.m. CST

    Yaaaarg!

    by Jaka

    I love it. She did an incredibly, brilliant even, job of incuding small bits, sometimes even one sentence, that tied in each of the other books. I cannot think of one single story thread that was left hanging, and I've been trying. I agree completely that she CLEARLY had much of this planned from the beginning. And I hate to admit it, until I had finished this book, I wasn't sure that was the case. I also agree that there were some pacing issues, but I think that was partly just because I wanted to get to the end of the book. They may disappear a bit on the second pass. Overall, it was just an incredibly gratifying experience, and I thank her for that from the core of my being. We were not let down! After 7 books, she was still able to awe and amaze us. Make us angry and tense and sad, happy and joyous and content. A couple things I missed on: I was SURE Snape would have more to do with killing Volemort. But I always believed that he was on Dumbledore's side, so that was cool. And that ONE LINE that Harry said to Albus Severus near the very end of the book, that gave me the kind of chills I rarely get from entertainment. Incredibly powerful writing, yet so simple. Harry tells his son that Snape was one of the bravest people he ever knew, after calling him a coward for the first 6 books. I'm gettin' chills right now. Also, when Lupin and Tonks died, after announcing they'd had the baby and telling Harry he would be his godfather, I thought for SURE that Harry would have adopted Teddy. I kinda wish he would have actually, but on the whole I really pleased with the end of the book, both in the time we were used to, and 19 years later. Of course I want MORE, but what we were given is so good, and so special; I don't think a lot of people realize just how special it is yet. There's still too much hype. But I read A LOT of books, all different genres of fiction, and I'm not sure I've ever enjoyed, and been so rewareded, by reading a series as I was with this one. I just want to thank her over and over and over.

  • July 24, 2007, 9:34 p.m. CST

    19 Years Later = 26th Anniversary...

    by belledame

    ...of the day Harry met Ron, Ginny, Hermione and Draco. And Unforgivable Curses are used by good guys, because this is war. Lupin urges Harry to stop playing kid games. The seasoned warriors know that lives are on the line here. What are they gonna do, round up all the Death Eaters and put them in the Hogwarts dungeon? They didn't control the government or the prison. If someone brings deadly force against you, you'll have to meet them on that level if you want to survive. Otherwise, what are you fighting for?

  • July 24, 2007, 9:38 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9

    by Jaka

    I kind of think you answered your own question. Hermione says it "can", not that it "will". And I think that's generally the line that the Lovegood's walk. lol

  • July 24, 2007, 9:47 p.m. CST

    Oi! I gotta stop...

    by Jaka

    ...because I'll be responding to TalkBacks all night! But come on people, think back to school. Elementary, Jr. High, High School and even college. Nearly every character in Harry Potter is an archetype, maybe all of them. We've all known people that were similar to Dudley and Fred and George. Certainly the characters are exagerated for dramatic and comedic affect, and because this world is "magic". But I bet a great majority of us have been bullied at one time or another, and know somebody that was a "class clown" at the expense of others. In my mind, this is one of the many things that made these books outstanding. JK took classic archetypes, myths and hero legends, and spun them into a tale that had never been told. And she did it, consistently, at a level beyond what many authors could ever hope to achieve in ONE book, let alone a seven book series. <br><br>Please don't get me wrong, though, I do recognize that there are some flaws. But they are minor in comparison to what she achieved over the seven book run.

  • July 24, 2007, 10:25 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9--

    by zb.brox

    Here, I think I found a few more straws for you to grasp at.

  • July 24, 2007, 10:38 p.m. CST

    Book 8?

    by ProoferFromHell

    Sorry if this has been said already - I haven't read through all the posts. If anything, I'd like to see a "Book 8," but make it an encyclopedia or reference book of her research into characters, backstory, extra plot lines that didn't make it into the book, etc.

  • July 24, 2007, 11:52 p.m. CST

    Snape and his last line

    by The Funketeer

    "look at me" meant that he wanted Harry to put his memories (the blue stuff floating out of his head) in the pensive and look at them so that he would know what had to be done with Voldemort. He also probably wanted to make sure Harry knew the sacrifice he was making and why. I don't think Snape was particularly brave in betraying Voldemort all those years. It was love that made him do it and I don't think he had much control. I think he agreed for the most part with Voldemort and but felt betrayed and horrified at what he had done. Lilly was the only person Snape had ever cared for and he didn't know what to do with the feelings he had for her when she was gone. Dumbledore even said that Voldemort didn't understand love and that was one of his weaknesses and it certainly led to his downfall because if he knew or understood love, he never would have killed Lily if he knew it would mean that Snape would betray him down the road (either that or he would have killed Snape before he could be betrayed).

  • July 24, 2007, 11:56 p.m. CST

    Neville

    by The Funketeer

    Gotta agree with some of the above posters. Neville was the BOMB! He's been my favorite character since book 1 and I always knew she was setting him up to be a hero in the final chapter but she has exceeded all my hopes and expectations in what she did with him in the last 1/4 of this book. The simple fact that he continued to lead the resistance after everyone had fled or been captured was enough for me but when he pulled out the sword and killed the snake right in front of Voldemort I about crapped my pants. I was glad to see he got a mention in the epilogue as well. And after reading this book if I had to pick a second favorite character, it'd probably be Neville's grandma. That old broad was awesome.

  • July 24, 2007, 11:58 p.m. CST

    shit book

    by deadphishiy2

    shit ending, shit shit shit.

  • July 25, 2007, 12:19 a.m. CST

    Peter Jackson should direct the Deathly Hallows

    by chrisboy

    I'm thinking Peter Jackson would be perfect to direct the Deathly Hallows as 2 movies back-to-back. He's had experience! And 2 movies would ensure that every story thread is told and wrapped up properly. Oh, and this would help Warner Bros make money off an 8th movie, since they can't make any more movies out of the series. They can't say no to that. Who's with me on this? :D

  • July 25, 2007, 12:34 a.m. CST

    one last potterverse book

    by aicnball

    well it appears we will get one last potterverse book, an encyolpedia to wrap up the last loose ends from the epilouge and answer some of the questions that we still had, like who is new headmaster, is the curse against the dark arts teacher lifted and i can already answer that and if u watch the interview that today will have thurs and fri. it's yes and give us backgrounds on some of the other charcters and probably tell us how neville got the herbolgy postion and stuff, so she does have one last potterverse tome coming but this will be an encyclopedia to answer the loose ends like i said

  • July 25, 2007, 12:45 a.m. CST

    i'm doing to direct harry potter 7...

    by Director17

    mark your calendars....for greatness

  • July 25, 2007, 12:54 a.m. CST

    Harry Potter, Can

    by haitu

    Suck my Harry Ballz. if your above 16 years old and read this shit, then you are an idiot. Stop feeding the hype. And believe, that is all this book is. Hype. Grow the fuck up.

  • July 25, 2007, 1:49 a.m. CST

    Can anyone help explain how

    by Wheel99

    Neville got the Sword of Gryphindor? The last time I remember seeing it was with the goblin in Gringots. How did Neville get it. Wheel99@hotmail.com

  • July 25, 2007, 2:09 a.m. CST

    Ringwearer

    by lordgrimplemort

    I can see where you're coming from about Fred and George--in real life they'd be a pain in the ass. The same could be said about Hagrid. Yeah he's loveable and fun and loves the kids, but he almost got Harry and Ron eaten by spiders and gave away secrets to volyd in sorcerer's stone by getting drunk and talking too much. But getting mad at Hagrid for giving Dudley a tail? He wasn't picking on a poor, innocent kid because of his dad. Hagrid was visiting Harry on his 11th Bday to tell him he's a wizard--a boy who he hasn't seen since he was baby and he brought a cake for a touching reunion/birthday party. Next thing he knows some rude little bastard pushes harry aside and eats the cake himself, the same way he's been abusing Harry for years. I don't think Hagrid went overboard at all. In fact he should have imprisoned the Dursleys all inside the cupboard for a week to let them see how it feels.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:15 a.m. CST

    Wheel 99

    by lordgrimplemort

    I would guess that the sword doesn't belong to the goblin. At first I felt bad for Griphook when he said Gryffindor had stolen the sword, but after what Bill said about goblins, the sword probably was legitimately Gryffindor's and the goblins think it's theirs because they made it. And then in the vault Harry didn't give griphook the sword, Griphook broke the deal by taking it and then calling thief and helping bank security try to catch Harry and co. I think the sword's true place is at Hogwart's and appears in the sorting hat when a true Gryffindor is in need as Neville was then. Long live Longbottom--lopper of snakeheads.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:16 a.m. CST

    Ringy, I've just about had it with you

    by Lost Prophet

    You are the epitomy of po-faced obsessiveness. On the one hand you perform amazing critical leaps of faith and judgement to condemn something that doesn't meet your precise vision of how a magical world should work and then on the other you endlessly tread over the same minor points with an utter inability to see any point of view but your own. <p>I will answer your Fred and George points though. Firstly, they are Ron and Ginny's brothers. This is clearly something that you wish to ignore. Siblings do shitty things to each other all the time (I put spiders in my sister's bedroom when I was a kid),but they grow out of them. Therefore turning Ron's teddy bear into a spider was little more than the magical equivalent of shitty fraternal behaviour, as is the jumping out and giving her frights. If you honestly think that children are all little angels that don't behave like assholes then you are clearly deluding yourself. Therefore, not a big deal. Secondly, they gave Dudley the toffee for 2 reasons. Firstly as a prank, and secondly as, and one of them states it specifically, he is a "great bullying git". Both instances were minor and in a controlled environment (their parents were present and easily able to reverse the damage done). Stuffing the slytherin in the closet was a response to his oppressive and bullying behaviour, and did not result in his "near death". I don't know where you got that from but in your rabid frenzy to condemn 2 minor comic relief characters you seem to be making shit up. Next "Trading in illegal substances and experimenting on younger children". What a fucking joke. They are not pushing crack at hogwarts- the books are not called things like "Harry Potter and the improvised crack pipe" or "harry Potter and the shared syringe". They are developing products for what turns out to be a successful business, none of the stuff they obtain is illegal- their mother just does not want them handling it (for 2 reasons- firstly, as let's face it, it is unsafe, and secondly as she wants them to pursue a career at the ministry). All the "experimenting" was utterly irrelevant as this was merely the control group and they had been taking the bloody stuff themselves for ages. If they had been making arsenic pills I am pretty certain that they would not have been giving them to kids, let alone taking them themselves. The point of these sections is to show what a po-faced jobsworth Hermione is (much like yourself), and what a shitty prefect Ron is. The section is not meant to be read as a comment on the Mengele twins and their cackling SS sidekick. <p>I find it amusing that it is just as easy to turn this level of obsessiveness to your beloved Lord of The Rings and come to some very unsavoury (in fact more unsavoury than Rowling) conclusions as to the author. For example, is it co-incidence that all the evil races in Middle Earth are Black? and come from the East? This must represent Tolkein's view that people from the British Empire, especially Indians, are somehow less than human and naturally evil. Therefore, Tolkein must be advocating the extermination in warfare of the lesser races. What a bastard.<p>Now to answer your final question. No being an asshole isn't a British Trait, it is a human one. Is being a trainspotting low rent obsessive fuckmonkey with a hard-on for all things written by a dead man, and vision that is so blinkered you may as well run in the Kentucky Derby an intrinsic trait of your genepool, or are you a unique little snowflake that we should cherish?

  • July 25, 2007, 4:18 a.m. CST

    sorry about the length of that.

    by Lost Prophet

    It got out of hand.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:29 a.m. CST

    Also,

    by Lost Prophet

    sadism in children't literature was not invented by Rowling- you fucking twat. have a look at Charlie and The Chocolate Factory for some sadism.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:47 a.m. CST

    some shitheads are not worthy of a response

    by Lost Prophet

    and that includes any one that posts garbage like "go read real books". <p>How's about you tools don't bother looking on this thread as it is clearly beneath you?

  • July 25, 2007, 4:48 a.m. CST

    but, obviously, I'll do it anyway

    by Lost Prophet

    Before anyone else points that out. <p>slow work day

  • July 25, 2007, 5 a.m. CST

    Narcissa will be played by... Naomi Watts!!!

    by Evil Hobbit

    Also confirmed casting for HBP are Joseph Fiennes and Stuart Townsend.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:20 a.m. CST

    No, dickhead

    by Lost Prophet

    The comment was that perhaps you have better things to be doing? <p>I'll admit I don't. <p>HP is streets smarter than fucking Transformers, unless I missed a car pissing on government agent joke. I'll give you a good example of fairly sophisticated humour that will whip over the heads of most children: where the durseley's live- Privet Drive, Little Whingeing, Surrey. A nice neat pisstake on a certain "disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" mentality that a lot of middle class English people have.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:20 a.m. CST

    GurzEon

    by Harold The Great

    You are a genius. There's so much wit in your posts. Your every word is a poem. I can see why you can't enjoy these filthy children's books, you're simply too smart and too educated. Unlike us dumbasses.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:21 a.m. CST

    And there isn't some sort of prohibition

    by Lost Prophet

    on where you can and can't comment- you're meant to be an adult, try some self restraint.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:29 a.m. CST

    Well, Ringy...

    by DocPazuzu

    ...I was going to once again try to goad your cowardly self into answering my questions, but after having read Lost Prophet's exquisite lambasting of you, I realize that I have nothing to add and would be even happier watching you try to squirm out of his critique rather than my own paltry points.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:30 a.m. CST

    Just finished reading it

    by lost.rules

    Loved it. It was very emotional. Very epic. It felt right. Not dissapointing like so many other things have been. Ironically enough, as I was reading the King's Cross chapter, I heard Don't Stop Believing playing on my computer while my girlfriend checked her friend's My Space. First thought, Oh Dear God NO! NOT AGAIN!

  • July 25, 2007, 5:33 a.m. CST

    Oh, and Cauron might be able to pull off the movie.

    by lost.rules

    It's going to be a hard damn movie to make too. I'll have great respect for any director that can pull movie 7 off.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:34 a.m. CST

    He'll ignore me Doc

    by Lost Prophet

    He doesn't actually like to reply when pinned down to something. <p>He will no doubt resort to labelling me a fascist. Glad you liked it though

  • July 25, 2007, 5:39 a.m. CST

    Answer me this.

    by lost.rules

    I think I noticed several mistakes from the book. Minor, but still took me out of the story telling just the same. One was the part about Hagrid's Hut where "Harry and Hermione saved Norbert." Wasn't Buckbeak they saved? Anyway, minor quibbles.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:39 a.m. CST

    Bloody hell, it's just occurred to me

    by Lost Prophet

    almost all the old school trolls have ventured out from under their bridges recently- Ringy, Cocococlopez, I think I saw Ginger Twit the other day. Now if zfisk/homewrecker turns up, BSB admits he's brokebackcowboy and I am Batman admits he is moviemack we'll have the whole set. It's like a convention.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:41 a.m. CST

    lost.rules

    by Lost Prophet

    I think it meant returned norbert to the wild- they did also save Buckbeak.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:48 a.m. CST

    Naomi Watts

    by Lost Prophet

    Crap stunt casting- as is Josef fiennes, and I'm at a loss as to who he'll play. It should have been deborah kara unger.

  • July 25, 2007, 6:03 a.m. CST

    I'm not saying there isn't loads of stunt casting

    by Lost Prophet

    Best example: John Cleese in the first film.

  • July 25, 2007, 6:06 a.m. CST

    also, I'm at a bit of a loss as to where you got

    by Lost Prophet

    that I hate Naomi Watts from.

  • July 25, 2007, 6:12 a.m. CST

    Rowling has hinted that she may write a

    by emeraldboy

    potterpedia. or a harry potter encyclopedia.

  • July 25, 2007, 6:17 a.m. CST

    my point about stunt casting

    by Lost Prophet

    and the reason I chose John Cleese as the example is that this is an actor that is far too "big" for a minor role-<p>you are quite right, Sean Connery as Dumbledore would have been the ultimate example of stunt casting, and I think Naomi Watts (as glorious as she is) is also far too big for the intended part. It is the name distracting from the role. <p>The Maggie Smith, Alan Rickman, Gambon examples are different as they are more character actors- but seeing as they went for a relatively unknown British actor (In comparison to Naomi Watts) for Lucius Malfoy why not pick a "smaller" actor for Narcissa? hence my suggestion of Deborah Kara Unger.<p>Chill out dude, it wasn't an assault on her perosnality or previous performances, and I actually think that the stunt casting in the films is one of their more regrettable features. As there is an unquestionably fabulous cast that gets very limited screen time<p>Mark Kermode put it best- he noted that it is like having a team consisting of all-star players and then keeping them on the bench. Mind you, if you have the money, then fuck it, why not.

  • July 25, 2007, 6:20 a.m. CST

    The equivalent would have been casting Jeremy Irons

    by Lost Prophet

    as lucius malfoy- not a bad idea, unquestionable acting chops, a supremely intelligent thing to do, but just too big for essentially a minor role.

  • July 25, 2007, 6:28 a.m. CST

    The films are laced with it

    by Lost Prophet

    Emma Thompson as Trelawny, Kenneth Branagh as Lockhart, two name but 2, and it is a pity they used David tennant in film 4.<p>There's loads of them, really.

  • July 25, 2007, 6:38 a.m. CST

    It is nobodys fault really that some have called Snape

    by emeraldboy

    a villain. In book five towrds the end. Potter breaks into Snapes towrds the end of the book, order of the Pheonix and there is a great hint about the rivalary between James potter and the young snape, rowling makes it clear that James and snape couldnt stand each other and In book six, Rowling reveals that Snape was a death eater for a time and that he was sent by Voldermort to spy on Hogwarts, but at all times got passed over for the job he wanted which was dark arts. Instead he got the potions job. Dumbledore knew snapes background. and in the sixth it makes clear that Snape was on the Malfoys side all along. Snape killed dumbledore. That was his order and that is why he was hogwarts. Snape was in league with voldermort or so it appeared because know, thanks to this site, it appears that is not the case from the people who have read books seven, I havent yet. But it seems as if rowling has changed snapes character.

  • July 25, 2007, 6:42 a.m. CST

    another essential contribution from Emeraldboy

    by Lost Prophet

    To begin with- have you read any of them? it is made apparent several times (goblet of fire leaping to mind) that Snape was a death eater and then turned and operated as a spy for dumbledore. <p>killing Dumbledore was a surprise, but book 7 reveals the motive for the murder. <p>fuck i'm cranky today.

  • July 25, 2007, 7:05 a.m. CST

    "Look at me"

    by Franco Begbie

    Snape's last words are almost certainly about him wanting to see Lily's eyes before he dies. The very next thing that is said is how Harry's green eyes met Snape's black eyes. And how many times throughout the seven books has it been mentioned that Harry has his mother's eyes?

  • July 25, 2007, 7:17 a.m. CST

    Lost prophet...

    by emeraldboy

    it is not stunt casting. This is part of David heymans plan. Potter is a british franchise. It is cast and made in the UK. Potter is worldwide phenomena, to paraphrase the musical joseph this is a cast of many colours. The harry potter franchise is british but it highlights through its cast that it is a multicultural one . Book 4 is a very good case in point. There are students there from England, france, germany and Russia all to take part in the tri wizard tournament, even Katie Leung is Chinese. Book 5, 6 are being directed by yates, each director has brought something different to the table. The director of the seventh movie will be a brit, I have no doubt. While coloumbus was a welcome visitor to the uk, heyman, who grew up in the industry, sent a clear message to the WB brass that this a brits only affair, and that brit directors need only imply from here on in. It is very rare for a book company to send out a manuscript to film company before a book is finished, that is what happened. Heyman got his hands on the book before it was published in the UK. He read the manuscript in one sitting and bought the rites, a day after he was finished reading it. the heymans are a big deal in the film world in the UK(heymans dad was harris agent and his mother was casting and when David father retired he set up his own film company, heyday films) and so when bloomsbury got the call, they published the book straight away. he then called Rowling and the rest is history.

  • July 25, 2007, 7:21 a.m. CST

    Another question

    by lost.rules

    How did Wormtail end up with the Weasleys? I've always wondered about that.

  • July 25, 2007, 7:29 a.m. CST

    The "Aliens" Moment.

    by lost.rules

    Does anyone else have mixed feelings about that? GET AWAY FROM HER YOU BITCH! Kinda corny. Especially if you're an Aliens fan, and remember that movie well, even though J.K. worded it slightly different. Oh, and Naomi Watts is brillant casting. I love her, and no she's not to big for the part. I just hope Joesph Fiennes isn't playing Slughorn. That role belongs to Bob Hoskins!

  • July 25, 2007, 7:44 a.m. CST

    what are you wittering on about?

    by Lost Prophet

    what has that drivel got to do with the previous conversation?<p>I think you have completely ignored both mine and MOM's posts and just pasted some crap about Harry Potter being multicultural (it isn't) combined with some more crap about heymans. <p>I think what you are saying is that Heymans said it is a british affair only, and that is why Naomi Watts was cast. This has nothing to do with the argument. Her background has not once been questioned- just her suitability for a minor role. <p>go back reread all the posts and then use what passes for a brain to try to add something constructive.<p>on a similar note, I was just wondering when quality casting becomes stunt casting- I wonder if there is some clearly defined moment when a major name in a cameo role is obviously a stunt rather than intelligent use of resources.

  • July 25, 2007, 7:45 a.m. CST

    well, I'm clearly in the minority

    by Lost Prophet

    It's not that she won't be great- because she probably will, but you are talking about a major actress in a minor role.

  • July 25, 2007, 7:48 a.m. CST

    soul splitting

    by sofa king retar did

    An early talk back suggested that Voldemorts soul had split into to many pieces - Everyone agreed that 7 splits was ok and/or seven Horacrux's were ok but people were counting 8 - if you split an original anything 7 times (which is ok) you end up with eight pieces. Nothing wrong here yes/no?

  • July 25, 2007, 7:49 a.m. CST

    sofa

    by Lost Prophet

    no the agreement was 6 splits to 7 Horcruxes= good, 7 splits to 8 horcruxes=bad

  • July 25, 2007, 7:52 a.m. CST

    The best "Aliens" moment.

    by lost.rules

    "Well, that's great. That's just fucking Great! Game over! GAME OVER, MAN!" Love Bill Paxton.

  • July 25, 2007, 7:52 a.m. CST

    LP

    by sofa king retar did

    how is Voldemort considered a horacrux - he is the source to create horacruxes - am i missing something?

  • July 25, 2007, 7:56 a.m. CST

    Horcruxes

    by lost.rules

    Tom split his soul so many times that ,when he died, he was a small fraction of himself. ie. creepy reptilian baby at King's Cross <p> So, I think any number of Horcruxes is bad. Really bad.

  • July 25, 2007, 8 a.m. CST

    Voldemort isn't a Horcrux.

    by lost.rules

    But obviously he still has a part of his soul with him. It's not eight Horcruxes. It's eight pieces of his soul. There were seven Horocruxes. If that makes sense.

  • July 25, 2007, 8:06 a.m. CST

    I was being lazy

    by Lost Prophet

    he isn't considered a horcrux<p>I should have written 6 splits to 7 pieces of soul=good etc, <p>obviously, it's not a good thing to do

  • July 25, 2007, 8:07 a.m. CST

    If that makes sense

    by Lost Prophet

    basically: 7= perfect number of pieces. Any more or less= shit.

  • July 25, 2007, 8:09 a.m. CST

    I think I saw that creepy reptillian baby

    by Lost Prophet

    when I changed trains this morning. Or it may have been a commuter. <p>BTW, kings X= purgatory. A long tedious grimy shithole that it is not particularly pleasant to be in, and you wait to escape from.

  • July 25, 2007, 8:30 a.m. CST

    I wonder what constitutes

    by zb.brox

    a "real book". I take it any book superficially labeled a "kids book" is out (which is startling, given how literary, say, His Dark Materials really is), but what about other fantasy works? Am I expected to believe, say, Piers-fucking-mediocre-Anthony writes "real" books? Or is all genre-work bad, too? Then we can write off Tolkien, Asimov, Bradbury, Gibson, Clark, even Hammett, Doyle, etc. etc. I dunno, maybe we should all just read John Irving all the time. He's a good writer, highly praised by critics, considered to be one of the defining American authors of our time...<p>Wait, doesn't he read HArry Potter? Huh...

  • July 25, 2007, 8:42 a.m. CST

    lost.rules

    by NormanOsborne

    <p>That's a great Aliens moment for sure, but this one always makes me laugh:</p> <p>Weaver: This girl has survived for two weeks, with no weapons and no training</P> <p>Paxton: Well why don't you put her in charge?</p>

  • July 25, 2007, 8:52 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    "...almost all the old school trolls have ventured out from under their bridges recently"<P>Yeah, I noticed that too the other day. It's almost nostalgic...<P>Now, where o' where did you see Ginger Twit?! I was of the belief that he was banned sometime ago. As for BSB admitting he's brokebackcowboy, don't count on it. He knows that concete would be humiliating. However, he will rally to the defense of zfisk/homewrecker with aplomb. Makes you wonder, doesn't it? Heh.

  • July 25, 2007, 8:54 a.m. CST

    Joe Fiennes

    by Worlds Most Benevolent Dictator

    Or however the hell his name is spelled... I'm guessing, Tom Riddle circa Borgin and Burke's.

  • July 25, 2007, 8:59 a.m. CST

    CG Effects

    by Jubba

    this is going to be one CG-heavy movie. armies. dragons. elves. goblins. giants. flaming creatures. spiders. snake. flying people. wizard duels. multiplying treasure. thestrals. buckbeak. castle being demolished. werewolves. and that's not all...can't wait to see it. or work on it!

  • July 25, 2007, 9:10 a.m. CST

    Cuaron for book 7!

    by PVIII

    make it happen WB (he's said that he's willing to return).

  • July 25, 2007, 9:24 a.m. CST

    Gauis

    by Lost Prophet

    It wasn't his handle- just some blithering twat posting utter mince. <p>There's also someone else posing with a gauis handle as well. Cheeky buggers.

  • July 25, 2007, 9:26 a.m. CST

    You use the word stunt casting, LP,

    by emeraldboy

    But when I started reading the books from the beginning, I visualised all of the actors, who played the parts as I was reading them. This was even before the movies came out. all of the adult actors were cast because, i suspect they look like thier roles. The only change was When harris died and gambon took over the role. out went the patient, gentle old man and in stepped, the barking, snarling old man. Which I dont like at all. That was how they cast all the roles for Harry potter. and thier own children of course. All of the adult actors had children and those children begged their parents to do it as those kids had read the books. Gambon and harris's grandkids did the same. and anyway if Harry potter was american production, written by an american author and cast with american actors and had an american crews. Would you still say it that had stunt casting?

  • July 25, 2007, 9:34 a.m. CST

    and one more, thing LP

    by emeraldboy

    I dont who you are, or what do for a living and really I dont care. But you should try and lay off the abuse or at least calm down or lie down in dark room. or take a bath. but just chill. This is only a movie site after all. you know what good manners cost nothing.

  • July 25, 2007, 9:34 a.m. CST

    and one more, thing LP

    by emeraldboy

    I dont who you are, or what do for a living and really I dont care. But you should try and lay off the abuse or at least calm down or lie down in dark room. or take a bath. but just chill. This is only a movie site after all. you know what they say good manners cost nothing.

  • July 25, 2007, 9:35 a.m. CST

    stunt casting

    by Bloo

    Lost Prophet, I gotta agree with you. At first I thought "John Cleese, how great, perfect for Nick, let's get Eric Idle for Peeves", same with Branugh as Lockhart, however both of those movies were very distracting in retrospect, becasue you're not seeing Nick or Lockhart, you're seeing Cleese and Branaugh. Sometimes it works, for me Emma thompson works as Trawleny, I espically enjoyed her little moment in OotP, when Umbridge cans her and you know she's drunk and ashamed and Maggie Smith is just perfect with her. I think Naomi Watts will be fine as "Cissy" but not perfect, frankly I'm not sure if Debroah Unger would be great, I can't think off the top of my head who would be perfect to be honest<P>quality vs stunt casting, prime example, I caught a little bit of the original Dragonheart last night, that's some stunt casting...ohh Sean Connery as a dragon<P>another example would be casting Sean Connery as a Bond villian (or Bondesque see Avengers)<P>re:Joe Fiennes, depenidng on how they go, if he is Tom Riddle Sr, or even Tom Riddle circa Borkin and Burge's, I think that works, if he's Slughorn then it's stunt casting<P>BTW will this be the first time Ralph and Joe have appeared in the same movie?<P>I was going to address Ringworm's triade on Fred and George, but you handled it well, have you noticed he still hasn't responded to people's continued requests on his opinon on [Chris] Tolikien's "recently discovered" Middle Earth manuscript (for a dead guy Tolkien puts out as much stuff as Tupac) and for all of Chris' compliants about the LotR movies, he sure is taking advantage of their populairty by releasing that book isn't he?<P>as for emeraldboy, just as I suspected, for all his talk of Haryr Potter being all multicultural he shoots himself in the mouth by admiting at the beginning that "only Brits need to apply", Curon, who ISN'T British crafted the best of the series. newell, who is, created one of the worst (GoF), but that's just my opinon what the hell do I know

  • July 25, 2007, 9:47 a.m. CST

    It depends entirely on the actors and the parts cast in

    by Lost Prophet

    The point i was attempting to make is that (only in my opinion) Naomi Watts is too big a name for a minor part. I am not suggesting that she would be crap- quite the reverse, it's just I wonder if her being cast distracts from the performance for the audience.

  • July 25, 2007, 10 a.m. CST

    cheers bloo

    by Lost Prophet

    Heh, Ringworm. Wish I'd thought of that. I think this is the first time both Fiennes brothers have been in the same film.<p>yes, alright emeraldboy, mouthing off over the internet doesn't make me hard- I did admit to being cranky, but lay off the maternal lectures. This is AICN- abuse is stock in trade.

  • July 25, 2007, 10:16 a.m. CST

    I don't think Watts

    by zb.brox

    yet has the trouble of standing out above her parts. Fortunately, while she's a major and very talented actress, she isn't someone who's name and face are constantly bandied about on television and the newsstands, and I think that lets her disappear into her parts much more effectively than, say, Angelina Jolie could. I understand the worry, but I don't think it will bother me, personally.

  • July 25, 2007, 10:34 a.m. CST

    Tahnks LP

    by Bloo

    I'm surprised noone else had thought of that either, but I liked it, and frankly it fits because he is a parasite forcing us to defend ourselves.<P>I thought HBP might be the first that both Fiennes were in the same film but wasn't sure<P>zb.brox, that's a good reference about Angelina Jolie...or even, I remember when Rosie O'Donall was fighting for the part of Mrs. Weasley *shudder* now THAT would have been stunt casting.

  • July 25, 2007, 10:39 a.m. CST

    That would have been truly awful

    by Lost Prophet

    and I suppose I am just overestimating it- My reason For DKu was that she would look the part and is roughly the right age and can act. isn't Naomi Watts too young?

  • July 25, 2007, 10:39 a.m. CST

    Snape's the true hero, and Harry & Ginny sux

    by rimshot

    Snape is clearly the real hero of the series IMO. True, Harry's no slacker - at least at the end - but Snape the lovelorn anti-hero is the character I'll always remember from the series. And as for the "romance" (god does Rowling suck at that aspect of fiction) - Harry ends up with the female character with the least personality and about whom we know nothing. I mean who the eff is Ginny Weasely? Besides being Ron's sister? She lacks Hermione's devotion and brainpower and Luna Lovegood's warm and goofy charm (she kicked ass in the new movie). And as for Hermione and Ron - well, maybe that makes sense. I guess Hermy needs someone she can dominate and Ron needs someone who can take care of him, ha ha, but otherwise that coupling never did make sense. Shoulda been Harry and Hermy or Harry and Luna for me to give a damn about any love interest. Anyway, thank god the phenom is over. I'll bet the next two movies won't be blockbusters thanks to the series coming to an end. Rowling's prose is DOA and the only reason I ever kept reading was to find out what happens. I have never been able to re-read any of her books. I think the best term for her work is "potboiler". But anyway thank god it's over. I'm carting my entire Potter collection to the used bookstore this weekend. Meanwhile, I can't wait for the next "Chronicles of Narnia" movie. Reepicheep OWNS!

  • July 25, 2007, 10:45 a.m. CST

    Have they definitely said they're not using Coulson

    by Dolph

    ...for the Riddle flashbacks then????? That's such a shame.

  • July 25, 2007, 10:55 a.m. CST

    re troll comeback

    by DocPazuzu

    I think it's just a coincidence and not part of a concerted Death Eater effort to reclaim a bit of what they lost during the last great AICN flame wars. <p> As much as I've battled cocolopez back in the day, I've never considered him as odious as the other individuals mentioned. Coco even had the good taste to bitchsmack Ringy a few times during the Kong talkbacks. <p> As for BSB admitting he's BBC once and for all, it's a moot point since he's revealed it so many times accidentally. One of the more telling ways in which he's done this is when someone talks shit about GingerTwit or zfisk/homewrecker or Ringy. BSB will put on his best Dan Quayle that-was-uncalled-for-senator mask and chastise the scurrilous villains for ragging on someone who isn't there to defend himself. I've never seen him do that when someone is talking shit about BBC, though.... Odd. <p> Oh, and there is one of the classic trolls missing, namely MinasTirithII, who vanished mysteriously. I really, really loathed that guy.

  • July 25, 2007, 10:56 a.m. CST

    Rimshot and LP

    by Bloo

    LOL the image of Hermione in full S&M gear when you said dominatting...I'm sick I know, what in the world would wizard S&M look like, crap, is crucio still illegal in those situations?<P>and yes Reepicheep OWNS, one of Lewis' best char. ever who really shines in Voyage of the Dawn Treader (probably my favorite of CON)<P>I think Rowling's justification is that Herminone, Ron, and Harry were all family and to "offically" make them family Ron and Hermoine needed to marry and since Ginny was introduced briefly in P/SS then it made sense to have Harry marry her, making them all part of the Weasly clan. Think of it this way, The Weasly's lost a son in Fred but gained a son (whom they already considered harry as) in Harry and two daughters in Fleur and in Hermione. just my opinon<P>Lost, I don't think Narcissa's age is ever mentioned, Cissy could be the youngest of the Black sisters (right Andromda, Bellatrick, and Narcissa were all Sirus cousins on the Black side right?) and she is never mentioned in any of Snape's pensives so it's possibly she wasn't at Hogwarts the same time as Lucius(who is older then James, Snape, Sirius, Lupin, et al, he's a prefect in their first year--making him 5th year that year at the earliest), so he might have married younger in order to keep his line "pure"

  • July 25, 2007, 11:06 a.m. CST

    Doc & Bloo

    by Lost Prophet

    Bloo: but even being generous Draco is 17 so she must surely be at least 37- I would have put her in her 40's but the marrying young thing does make sense. <p>Doc: Coco was the least offensive of the trolls, his personal failing was delusions of grandeur regarding his utter lack of musical talent. He was at least not a cretin. Not an accusation you can level at either ginger twit or Penis TirithII. Let alone the antichrist that is zfisk. is his lunatic blog still going?

  • July 25, 2007, 11:08 a.m. CST

    Ha! it is still going

    by Lost Prophet

    http://tinyurl.com/ynbwfu<p>fucking insanity- he seems to have a real hard on for you doc

  • July 25, 2007, 11:10 a.m. CST

    and amusingly

    by Lost Prophet

    http://tinyurl.com/2ocb9w<p>nowt in it yet- but the fact that it exists is tragic enough.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:11 a.m. CST

    "Kids Books", Snape not teaching DAtDA, and Peeves.

    by ZeroCorpse

    Peeves was cast, and filmed, in the first movie. They got Ric Mayall to play him, and then cut him from the film in the end. How perfect! What a loss! I'm still mad about that! <p> Snape was never allowed to teach Defence Against the Dark Arts because the position was JINXED by Tom Riddle when HE didn't get the position, and nobody could occupy that post for more than one year at a time. It would have screwed things up to have Snape driven out of Hogwarts by Voldemort's jinx, so Dumbledore kept Snape in potions-- Besides, Snape was a brilliant potions-master, and his talents were needed there. <p> I'm SO damn sick of these being called "Kids' Books" -- In most countries they are published in a kids' version and an adult version (different covers), and the only reason they were pushed to the kids' section in America was because they DOMINATED the adult best-seller lists otherwise, and other authors and publishers complained. <p> What is truly sad is that Jo Rowling's 700+ page books are referred to as "kids' books" by the ignorant, but then shit like "The Secret" or any of Nicholas Sparks' 150-page snooze-fests are allowed to be called adult books by these same people? What the fuck? <p> Let us also remember that pretty much EVERYTHING that falls under fantasy, adventure, science fiction, or horror that you'd find in the classic literature section was at one time considered childrens' literature by the elitists. Lord of the Rings? KIDS BOOK(S). Chronicles of Narnia? KIDS BOOKS. Tom Sawyer? KIDS BOOK. Dracula? KIDS BOOK! Twenty-Thousand Leagues Under the Sea? KIDS BOOK. ..and so on. Clearly, this is wrong-thinking. An adult can gleam as much joy and value from reading Jules Verne as he can from reading Viktor Nabokov, and certainly more than you'd get in reading shit like James Patterson (who, by the way, isn't an author. He hires writers to pen books "based on his ideas") or half the shit foisted on the public by Oprah Winfrey's "I don't like to read but I like to have books in my home as decoration so people think I read" Book Club. <p> I don't know what has made some people so curmudgeonly and just plain STUPID that they're bound and determined to relegate Potter to the kids' section and will never look at them out of some fear of being told they don't read stuff that's "adult enough" for their friends, but seriously-- If you read Lord of the Rings and then complain that Harry Potter is kids' stuff, you're an idiot who doesn't know shit about the literary world. <p> And once and for all, just because you read Kurt Vonnegut, William S. Burroughs, Chuck Palahniuk, or any of the other "edgy" authors doesn't make you somehow superior to other readers. After a long time managing a bookstore, I'd know. Frankly, those guys are like magnets for trendy fuckers who like to project an image of "indie cred" and pseudo-intellectualism, but who are in reality rather bland types who need an author to define them and give them ideas about what it is to be unique and broad-minded. When not allowed to quote such authors, you'll find their bag of tricks and pseudo-intellectual facade drops pretty quickly, and you're left with a doofus in a coffee shop without an original thought in his head. <p> Jeez... If Harry Potter is kids' stuff, then I can't imagine how the fucking elementary Stephanie Plum novels are allowed anywhere near adult sections, and I certainly can't justify fucking "Marley and Me" being sold as an adult best-seller at ANY point.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:11 a.m. CST

    I've just been reading it

    by Lost Prophet

    and the deluded twat has added me to the list of pazuzu clones. Wanker.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:12 a.m. CST

    Lost Prophet

    by DocPazuzu

    Oh yes, alive and well. Even funnier is the stuff he's posting on completely different websites where he rants about AICN and zionists. Gaius showed me an excerpt fisky-poo had posted regarding the "jewish propaganda" film, Fantastic Four 2. I almost fell off my chair laughing. <p> Hey, MNG, how about a repost of that thing?

  • July 25, 2007, 11:17 a.m. CST

    What is not funny though

    by Lost Prophet

    and really not funny is that on the links on the right one takes you to a book written by a clown called Thorn blaming Israel for 9/11. <p>fucking scary stuff.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:19 a.m. CST

    He also has links to...

    by DocPazuzu

    ...neo-nazi-affiliated history revisionists and all kinds of nutty stuff. The guy's a complete fruitcake.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:20 a.m. CST

    Oh.. Trolls...

    by ZeroCorpse

    I seem to remember a particularly odious sometimes-troll by the name of FishyCunt. Was I imagining this? <p> Anyway, of the old-old-school posters (myself included) it's nice to know the majority of us are good guys and not trolls. <p> We should get medals or something for sticking around so long... Or at least a penny every time someone says our names!

  • July 25, 2007, 11:23 a.m. CST

    Wow, I am late to this talkback.

    by Cameron1

    Really liked the book but more because it was a great conclusion rather than a great book on it's own. I still don't see why we had to spend quite so much time in the wilderness - yes it was a good way of keeping Harry isolated and it made the revelations about the outside world more dramatic but I would have been in love with this book if they'd showed more of the DA's resistance at Hogwarts. Though Neville decapitatitng Nagini was probably the single coolest moment in the series in my opinion and it kinda made up for missing out on that front earlier on. Snape's memories were great too. I kinda think he wanted to see Lily's eyes one last time but I think it wasn't so literal as him wanting to see the smae physical eyes, he wanted to see what he'd been fighting for all along, it wasn't just Lily, it was Harry and all the good that he'd hated so much when he was a Death Eater. I rewatched Azkaban earlier and I'm convinced Rowling told Rickman he's a good guy very early on, it's masterfully subtle the way he does it but it's there. Ron's rescuing of Harry was perfectly timed, just when I was sick to death of camping and wating and feeling all angsty, Ron's back and being all funny and heroic, plus it had an exchange between Harry and Ron that was a pretty perfect summation of Harry's heroism. "When you say it like that it sounds cooler than it really was"/"That's what I've been telling people for 6 years" - Really great way to echo Harry's feeling through his various adventures. All in all I'm glad it pretty much lived up to my expectations, Rowling isn't a literary heavyweight but she's a great storyteller, even the epilogue worked because of the kid being named after Severus. Bring on the HBP movie.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:24 a.m. CST

    ZeroC

    by DocPazuzu

    Is that the same guy as FishyKotex? He was a racist dickhead who ended up as one of the original Scorched Planet jackholes. A real piece of work. <p> Whatever happened to übertroll Mercier, "King Of Talkback"?

  • July 25, 2007, 11:24 a.m. CST

    Want to bet that he hides out in a bunker

    by Lost Prophet

    naked but for a tin foil hat, frantically scanning AICN's boards which he is too much of a pussy to post on. <p>See, he's just waiting for the zionist sponsored armageddon to happen- upon which he will emerge and be celebrated as the king. Wine, women, kudos, power- these things will all be his in this mixed up post apocalyptic future. <p>Be afraid, be very afraid.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:26 a.m. CST

    Other notable trolls include:

    by Lost Prophet

    the vile jayjew, the odious OscarWilde4Prez (or JJ4prez), racist forever TJ, <p>Before I got banned I remember some real bastards polluting the boards. <p>on long surviving non-trolls, it's a pity Roland has dropped out.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:27 a.m. CST

    All I know...

    by ZeroCorpse

    is that with the kind of trolls we get here, I'm sort of glad AICN doesn't have avatars. <shudder>

  • July 25, 2007, 11:33 a.m. CST

    LP

    by DocPazuzu

    Yeah, what is the deal with ChildeRoland? He just vanished. I missed his acidic posts in the Hostel 2 and Shyamalan talkbacks.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:34 a.m. CST

    It is a pity as no-one skewers

    by Lost Prophet

    shyamalan like Roland. Also missing are Moondoggy2U and Anchorite.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:37 a.m. CST

    I do miss fettastic, too.

    by DocPazuzu

    He was a rare troll breed: an online social misfit whose inane ideas were matched by his incredible arrogance. It was like he couldn't help it. He pissed off EVERYBODY. And he wouldn't. stop. posting. Even after he started baring personal and embarrassing details about himself in an effort to seem like a cool guy, he still managed to cause riots of pure hate in the TBs. <p> What a guy!

  • July 25, 2007, 11:38 a.m. CST

    Yep, Moondoggy is missed. Anchorite...

    by DocPazuzu

    ...not so much.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:39 a.m. CST

    One Source of Non-closure...Stan Shunpike.............

    by crackerfarmboy

    It's a minor one for sure, but it's still unlike JK to not address a mystery brought up in her book. She never revealed where Shunpike's allegiance truly lied. Was he truly a death eater (as was intimated in DH)? Was he really an innocent teen (as Harry believed in HBP)? Was he a victim of the imperius course (as others were confirmed to be)? She really doesn't answer this mystery. Aside from a few very minor criticisms (see chrth's dead on review up top)this book, and this series as a whole was amazing. JK will go down with JRR as a true master of fanatasy literature. Brilliant!

  • July 25, 2007, 11:40 a.m. CST

    oh god, I remember him

    by Lost Prophet

    wasn't he the arsehole that started bragging about his salary and girlfriend. That was embarrassing for all concerned. <P>The worst of it was that his life was actually quite sad. I just wanted to shake him and point out that as he was posting anonymously he could pretend to be whoever. <p>Thining about it, I haven't seen anchorite since the Sicky ruckus, which was round about the last time Roland surfaced. Maybe they've killed each other.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:41 a.m. CST

    I think moondoggy lost heart over Transformers

    by Lost Prophet

    and swore off cinema.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:44 a.m. CST

    Hahahaha!

    by DocPazuzu

    Yeah, fetty was all about the money and his girlfriend, or his "Catwoman" as it were (long story). He apparently even posted a link to a supremely mulleted photo which I sadly never saw.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:45 a.m. CST

    That was one of the most ridiculous links ever

    by Lost Prophet

    Beaten only by Coco's link to his "music". <p>comedy gold.<p>I'm waiting to see if Ringworm turns up to answer.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:46 a.m. CST

    Oh yes, let us not forget...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...Jar Jar 4 Prez (aka Vog from Dimension X, Mean Gaius, by by, Oscar Wilde 4 Prez, and Tegujai Batir). Yeah, that guy "PWNS"! What an asshole-buffoon for a Troll.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:48 a.m. CST

    Hey MNG

    by DocPazuzu

    Do you have a link to zfisk/homewrecker's FF2-zionist thingy?

  • July 25, 2007, 11:52 a.m. CST

    does Anna Valerious count as a Troll

    by Lost Prophet

    or a moron? I'm also desperate to count Emeraldboy as a troll for mangling the English language, but I think I'm the only one that is bothered by it.<p>I've been trying to find Mercier, I think he must have been banned<p>please post that link Gauis, seriously I'm waiting for a call and could do with the laugh.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:52 a.m. CST

    Goddamn!

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I can't believe you guys remember some of those names. I LONG forgot about Mercier, TJ, and jayjew. Just thinking of those characters cracks me up.<P>Which reminds me, I did see that MinasTirithII posted in TB a couple of weeks ago. I don't remember where it was but he's definitely around.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:54 a.m. CST

    RE: The Link

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I'll get on it ASAP.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:58 a.m. CST

    Agree with it all...

    by TheWacoKid

    I love how this story is so different from all the others. Specifically that it didn't take place at Hogwarts. I missed it, and wanted it to be here, but so did Harry. Rowling made me feel a longing for Hogwarts just as Harry feels about it. I actually felt most hurt when Fred died. That was the worst for me. I loved Fred and George, they were great, and always hilarious. I was sad to see him go, and wonder how the joke shop went without him. I also think that the Malfoy's did not have a great ending to their story. However, I think that was the point. None of them would ever admit how many times Harry saved Draco's life, even Draco 19 years later seemed defiant toward Harry. So I think that was the point. When it comes to the Potterverse, I would not be surprised to see it comeback with stories about Teddy Lupin. Harry is his Godfather, and has had both parents killed. Very much like Harry. Just a thought, and maybe even the dark side of the story, to see him rise up and be the new Dark Lord. Anyway, great book, easily my favorite of the bunch, and that is saying something. I just loved how every book had something incorporated in this, and how most of the loose ends were tied up perfectly.

  • July 25, 2007, 11:59 a.m. CST

    ZeroC

    by Lost Prophet

    is that true about James Patterson? That would explain a lot. Over in britain every so often we get mock trailer advertisements shilling his latest piece of plane fiction. His sales depress me as the books really aren't good.

  • July 25, 2007, noon CST

    re Anna Valerious

    by DocPazuzu

    Anyone who can't manage a single post without typing the word "Sommersverse" is, by definition, a troll. <p> As is anyone else who enjoys Van Helsing and LXG.

  • July 25, 2007, noon CST

    Here you go, gents.

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Here is a link to Memflix's blog (!!!) where you can find zfisk/homewrecker's thoughts on all things FF2/Galactus. (Just scroll down and look for his name.)<P> http://tinyurl.com/3y9zrw

  • July 25, 2007, 12:03 p.m. CST

    ahhh the old school trolls plus some other things

    by Bloo

    I remember them as well in some of m previous incarnations here, Anchorite and Mercier stand particullay out. God i hpe mentioning their names doesn't bring them out<P>and speaking of Old School AICN what ever happened to Joe Hallenback, I know he's been sort of replaced by Neil Crumpston but whatever happened to him, i know there were some allegations, right around the time Mori was "outed" as Drew McWeeny that Hallenback had been caught either pirating or selling pirated movies and was going to jail.<P>oh and Lost I was being generious and figuering Narcissa was 35, but I just checked IMDB and Naomi Watts is 39 this year, so I guess age wise it works...<P>and re: Stan shupike I belive we are to insuiante that he is under the Imperius curse because he is continually protrayed as not too bright, certainly too dull to be a death eater, and was possibly imperiused because of his sweet nature it would be difficult for Harry (wo belives in the good of all people) to fight him back, thus using Expelliruams to disarm him and reveal himself.<P>Sero you hit the nail on the head, I can't think of anything better said.

  • July 25, 2007, 12:03 p.m. CST

    ahhh the old school trolls plus some other things

    by Bloo

    I remember them as well in some of m previous incarnations here, Anchorite and Mercier stand particullay out. God i hpe mentioning their names doesn't bring them out<P>and speaking of Old School AICN what ever happened to Joe Hallenback, I know he's been sort of replaced by Neil Crumpston but whatever happened to him, i know there were some allegations, right around the time Mori was "outed" as Drew McWeeny that Hallenback had been caught either pirating or selling pirated movies and was going to jail.<P>oh and Lost I was being generious and figuering Narcissa was 35, but I just checked IMDB and Naomi Watts is 39 this year, so I guess age wise it works...<P>and re: Stan shupike I belive we are to insuiante that he is under the Imperius curse because he is continually protrayed as not too bright, certainly too dull to be a death eater, and was possibly imperiused because of his sweet nature it would be difficult for Harry (wo belives in the good of all people) to fight him back, thus using Expelliruams to disarm him and reveal himself.<P>Sero you hit the nail on the head, I can't think of anything better said.

  • July 25, 2007, 12:03 p.m. CST

    Thanks MNG!

    by DocPazuzu

    You're the man!

  • July 25, 2007, 12:04 p.m. CST

    HAHAHAHAHA

    by Lost Prophet

    that is hysterical I especially like "jewdicial" system. <p>Insanity, thy name is homewrecker. <p>Thanks MNG

  • July 25, 2007, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Is she really? well, that is surprising

    by Lost Prophet

    BTW, I refuse to watch FF2- does Galactus pitch up or is it a cloud? and whatever happened to Harry's review of it?

  • July 25, 2007, 12:11 p.m. CST

    DocPaz & Lost Prophet

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    No problemo; you're welcome!<P>RE: BSB/BBC - remember the time he told everyone he didn't have an account in The Zone? HA HA! Maybe you should tell that story, Doc!

  • July 25, 2007, 12:20 p.m. CST

    right, work finished

    by Lost Prophet

    see you all tomorrow. <p>Slap ringworm for me if he reappears.

  • July 25, 2007, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Patterson...

    by ZeroCorpse

    Yep. He's crap. He "gets an idea" and then gives it to another author who writes the book, and then they publish it with Patterson's name in big letters at the top, and the actual author's name at the bottom, after the word "and" -- as if the other guy just assisted or something. That's why all Patterson's books are "by" two people.<p> Want some more dirt? V.C. Andrews has been dead since 1986, and nothing published under her name after that was actually written by her. Instead it's a guy-- Andrew Neiderman. <p> Danielle Steel is suspected to have retired from writing quite a while back, and everything for the past decade may well be ghost-written. <p> A large number of female romance novelists are actually men using pen names. Some of the big ones, I'm told, are not the women they pretend to be on their jacket covers. Ann Coulter is actually Christopher Hitchens playing devil's advocate under a pen name.<p> OK... That last one is a lie. The others are true, or in the case of Steel, highly suspected.

  • July 25, 2007, 12:46 p.m. CST

    my non-amazon.com review (spoilers, yo)

    by newc0253

    props to chrth for his review at the top of this talkback. Like him, i'll do the negative first and then the positive. First, the quest for the Horcruxes didn't turn out quite as cool as i'd hoped. After the locket quest in HBP, i figured that each of the subsequent Horcruxes would be involve a challenge as fucked-up as the underground lake. That, at least was how i'd have structured it. As it was, the middle third of the book was spent mostly camping, with the main characters having no idea how to proceed. The Gringotts raid was cool and, ultimately, so was the retrieval of the diadem. Like Quint, i'd been longing for the books to get out of Hogwarts, but more to go to underground lakes and stuff, not so much to put up tents. Consequently, I ended up missing the Hogwarts setting more than i wanted to. Secondly, although i think that the concept of the Deathly Hallows were a cool idea i agree they kinda came out of nowhere. I was also kinda bummed that they weren't all that Deathly but actually kind of literal. They aren't like the Grail or the Philosopher's Stone or anything: in D&D terms, only the Elder Wand seemed to be an actual artifact. The Stone didn't really bring anyone back, and its main function seemed to be able to communicate with the dead. In the wizarding world, where the dead turn up in talking in any number of contexts (e.g. in paintings, in magical mirrors, during wand malfunctions, etc), the stone really doesn't seem that remarkable. and the Cloak - hey, yeah, it's cool and everything - but even the characters themselves acknowledged, it was pretty much a better quality version of something that was fairly commonplace in the wizarding world. Given the literal qualities of the Hallows, it's also hard to accept that the mere combination of the three will make the wielder immortal, except in the practical sense of being very difficult to kill. I was also irritated that Harry's mental connection with Voldemort went from being such a great device in Order of the Phoenix to being such a contrivance in Deathly Hallows, c.f. Harry wonders what Voldemort would have thought about X or Y. Minutes later, Harry is having a mental flash of what Voldemort thinks of X or Y. Unlike some, I'm perfectly happy with Rowling's reliance on lengthy exposition - backstory makes me happy. But the mental link in book 7 smacked of easy convenience. The epilogue. I was fine that it was about sending their kids off to Hogwarts but it'd have been good to know what Harry or Hermione or Ron actually *did* as adults. The good? The brutal action. The aerial battle and the early, sudden deaths of long-running characters. The appearance of Kingsley's patronus at the wedding. The Muggle Registration Commission in the Ministry of Magic. Kelcher's redemption. Malfoy manor. The overall picture of the wizarding world under occupation and at war (I'd even have been happy for more darkness - the discovery that Voldemort was setting up death camps for Muggle-borns, etc). I was bummed that Snape didn't get more screen time or a better death but the redemption that followed was perfect. In fact, the whole return to Hogwarts, the final showdown and the scene with Dumbledore was excellent. It seemed an impossible task to give fitting resolution to so rich a series, but the final scene in Hogwarts managed it. Now that the films are increasingly impressions of the books rather than adaptations, it's gonna be interesting to see how they handle it. At least they'll be able to cut out some of the camping...

  • July 25, 2007, 12:54 p.m. CST

    HTML Line Breaks - - use them.

    by ZeroCorpse

    Please?

  • July 25, 2007, 1:03 p.m. CST

    Agreed

    by Bloo

    HTML line breaks are easy, it's about the only HTML we can use here, and it helps well break things up, it's easy to use, do it please.

  • July 25, 2007, 1:56 p.m. CST

    Naomi Watts rumor FALSE

    by pervy elf fancier

    they've just stated that it is so. Shame. No news on Fiennes Jr and Stuart Townsend though. If they are cast, I'd put money on them playing Tom Riddle Sr and Bill Weasley. Pretty fuckin awesome.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:12 p.m. CST

    pervey

    by Bloo

    thanks for the update hadn't heard that yet, but of course I get all my news from AICN *wink wink*. That's who'd I guess too for those two actors if they are cast. I'm really curious who they get as Slughorn, I suggested earlier and still stand by either Brian Blessed or Brian Cox

  • July 25, 2007, 2:15 p.m. CST

    lost.rules

    by pervy elf fancier

    Harry and Hermione saved both Norbert and Buckbeak.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:20 p.m. CST

    Lost Prophet....

    by emeraldboy

    Life would have been better if I didnt have a learning difficulty. But I do. That hasnt stopped me from writing perfectly acceptable, well written stuff. Which has been praised. I never had dyslexia, I have good command of the english language and been told so repeatedly. When I was child, I loved to read. I was told by several teachers, that I had a very good imagination and. I have submitted three articles for my newsletter and they have been published. I have yet to find one person who has said, hey dude stop mangling the english. In fact all the feed back has been positive. Point is You cant judge people on the entries they make on a stupid website. I have written countless reviews of films for my bother in Spain. I made a list of the films that I have and it topped 250 and I reviewed them all. I write quite a lot. I have even attempted sci-fi story. Right now I am editor for kids with visual impairment. So What i mangle the english language, the president of the USA does the same. No one says he has half a brain. why cause hes the pres. Him being stupid its all an act. Just like me mangling the english language.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:22 p.m. CST

    Holy crap, that was hilarious

    by zb.brox

    And also creepy. That guy must be seriously unhinged.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:26 p.m. CST

    Emeraldboy--

    by zb.brox

    You had me right up until you said no one accuses the President of the USA of being stupid.<p>We do. Often.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:43 p.m. CST

    Nice Gaius and DocPazuzu ....

    by Ringwearer9

    Why does every talkback you participate in degenerate into your unholy reminsicences about talkbacks past, and how evil and Nazi-like and cuckoo other talkbackers were? What is wrong with you? Are your lives so unfulfilling you need to focus on the percieved wackiness of others? You certainly aren't interested in talking about the subject of THIS talkback.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:47 p.m. CST

    "You certainly aren't interested in...

    by DocPazuzu

    ...talking about the subject of THIS talkback." <p> Ringwearer, you hypocritical piece of shit. Didn't I just ask you at least a couple of pointed questions about this very subject which you've refused to answer? Not to mention replying to Lost Prophet's excellent smackdown. <p> Cunt.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:47 p.m. CST

    I'm a Republican

    by Bloo

    the same party as our president and I accuse him of being stupid, often.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:48 p.m. CST

    Bloo

    by DocPazuzu

    Brian Blessed as Slughorn! Genius!

  • July 25, 2007, 2:51 p.m. CST

    Brian Blessed

    by pervy elf fancier

    would be amazing.

  • July 25, 2007, 2:53 p.m. CST

    ahh Ringworm

    by Bloo

    I'm so glad you came back. All you can seem able to do is extol the virtures of Tolkien (a fine and great writer no doubt) to the point where you don't like anything at all. You never respond to any points anyone else makes al you can do is continually harp on the same points that you have previously made and have been refuted (I will give you the explording horn thing though, I wondered about that too, but assumed a levitating charm or something). You have ignored continual questions about Chris Tolkien, using his father's name, latest Middle Earth work. You continue to ignore the continually pleas to not compare Rowling to Tolkien but rather to Lewis. i wold call you a Pesdu intellectual but Doc Pazuzu already called you something much better<P>cunt

  • July 25, 2007, 2:57 p.m. CST

    Hey Ringy...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Well, I suppose one could say that whenever traveling the vast Mos Eisley-like expanse that is AICN TB, one must be wary and sure that the Troll-Ghosts of Talkback Past-and-Present are not forgotten.<P>Of course, one could also say that the shit is funny. And why should it be forgotten? Have you not been amused by the various rants, blow-outs, and dubious behavior contained within these here TBs over the years? Are you truly that joyless?<P>As for THIS Talkback, you certainly have managed to avoid a number of questions leveled at you. What's up with that, Ringy?

  • July 25, 2007, 3 p.m. CST

    thanks guys

    by Bloo

    I've been sturggling and thinking about who would make a great slughorn and for some reason I got to thinking about Phantom Meaneace today and how Brian's voice was just so perfect for the chief of jar jar's race and how it just reminded me of Slughorn and I was like 'Brian Blessed would be awesome as Slughorn" I still say we need to find a role for Brian cox too...Scrimgouer maybe

  • July 25, 2007, 3 p.m. CST

    Bloo

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I don't know that Ringy "extols the virtues of Tolkien" so much as he vomits hate upon Peter Jackson.<P>Ringy managed to heap more hate upon KING KONG (before the movie came out) than all of the so-called TRANSFORMERS haters were able to generate in 6 months. That's saying something!

  • July 25, 2007, 3:06 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9--

    by zb.brox

    I really would like to hear some rational reason you think Rowling has somehow abandoned the premise that sometimes apparently good characters are bad and apparently bad characters are good. Your odd expectations of the Weasley twins (and good lord, I am honestly chocked at how judgmental you are of their adolescent behaviour) aside, I can see no evidence at all for such an argument: Xenophilius Lovegood is a generally good man drive to do bad things, the Malfoys are generally bad people who do good things out of love for each others, Snape is a good person who becomes bad who becomes good again and who has to work under the appearance of being bad almost the entire time, Kreacher is a bad, or at least highly damaged, person, who becomes good, while even Harry's sainted father is shown to have been a nasty little git at one point, meanwhile Dudley, always a bastard in the past, apparently feels gratitude and remorse in this one, while Lupin, perhaps the most obviously "good" of the Marauders, acts for a while out of cowardice, and Dumbledore, the shining white hero of the books, is revealed to be a much more morally complex character than before...<p>In short, the vast majority of the characters in the series, and in this book perhaps *most of all*, are shown to be complex human beings with the capacity for both good and evil. Rowling's work makes clear that she believes that love and friendship are the things that drive people to be the best of themselves, while fear and insecurity drive people to be the worst. As people, and her characters, are capable of all of these emotions, they are capable of being good and bad at different times and in different ways, and that comes across very plainly here.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:06 p.m. CST

    MNG

    by Bloo

    well I was just trying to be nice as he keeps trying to compare tolkien to Rowling even though noone has ever made that comparison except for perhaps Ringworm himself. I agree that he is just a hatefully little man who has nothing better to do then bitch and complain, as for me I'm flitting between here and work as personal surfing is not condemned as long as my work gts done. I got myself a great job.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:06 p.m. CST

    Lost Prophet. Struck a Nerve, Did I ????

    by Ringwearer9

    First of all, what they are buying from Mundungus in Order of the Phoenix is a "Clacc C Non-Tradeable Substance". Sounds pretty illegal to me. I do believe that Doxy poison is part of their Puking Pastilles. The candy they test on younger children is stuff they've admitted has fatal effects (bleeding that won't stop) even though they are sure they've ironed out the worst elements (how nice of them to only test on younger kids when the danger has diminished somewhat.) If this were a real life analogue, they'd be put in prison. But according to you both I and Hermione are "po faced" spoilers of F&G's fun. And you are right, because, as the final volume reveals, this wasn't a comment on them as being cackling Nazis (though it should have been ... I wonder if Rowling planned to show them as evil and chickened out cos of morally bankrupt fans like yourself loving them so much). It's pretty disturbing that you do NOT find Fred & George's behavior disturbing. If anyone tortured aand scared their younger brother's and sisters (in Ginny's case, much younger) in the real world, it would be a danger signe, a sign that something was not quite right with them. This makes Rowling's books, and fans like yourself (an adult fan, right? I hope to God you don't have children) morally repugnant<p> As for Tolkien, he was one of the first to use non-human races as evil, but in his books he avoided actually describing the Orcs or Goblins in racially specific ways. Tolkien may have had embodiments of pure evil in the servants of Sauron, but he didn't give a "it's okay for friends of Frodo to act like orcs, as long as they help Frodo" attitude, which Rowling DOES have.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:09 p.m. CST

    I am not unhinged

    by emeraldboy

    and blessed, what a character, he doesnt get much work these days He goes from very quiet to loud. the best and worst chat show guest I have ever seen. Hilarious. Entertaining but very scary and brave. How many of you would climb everest without an oxygen. He has. I love it when he just breaks off and takes over the studio. That story about him and Johnny Gielgud had me in stitches. AND I CHASED JOHNNY GIELGUD THROUGH THE OLD VIC AND WHEN HE WAS AT HIS DRESSING ROOM, I CREPT UP BEHIND HIM AND CLENCHED HIS ARSE.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Bloo, Why would He use a levitating charm on the horn?

    by Ringwearer9

    He thought it was a harmless Snorkack Horn.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:19 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9 again--

    by zb.brox

    You are *totally* off on Fred and George. First off, do you have siblings? They're 2 years older than Ron and 3 years older than Ginny--have you never seen an 8-year-old boy try to scare his 5 year-old sister before? Or do something stupid and dangerous as a joke because they don't really comprehend the danger? The random things they did to their younger siblings as children may be nasty and stupid, but they are no true reflection of character. That shit just happens among children. <p>Further, as for them testing on younger students--as has been pointed out, they already tested them on themselves. And you are blowing the "won't stop bleeding" thing vastly out of proportion--these are fucking wizards, almost anything can be cured relatively easily. Fred and George only discovered that by testing on themselves, after all. As for the "class-c non-tradeable substance"--so fucking what? No one's going to claim they weren't rule-breakers who could be reckless at times, but is every teenager who buys illegal fireworks some evil potential murderer? Come on. Fred and George clearly loved their family, clearly didn't intend anyone serious harm, and clearly opposed people who did. They may have been reckless and arrogant, but that is not the same thing as evil. The only thing I find morally bankrupt here is the idea that the world is divided up into people who don't have any real flaws and evil people, with no inbetween, that you seem to be propogating.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:20 p.m. CST

    Emeraldboy--

    by zb.brox

    I wasn't accusing you of being unhinged, I was accusing that homewrecker guy.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:25 p.m. CST

    The horn--

    by zb.brox

    What, do you think he took his precious crumple-horned whatever horn and tossed it around? Maybe he didn't levitate the damn thing in, but I highly doubt he just tossed it on the ground. You realize that you can, like, carry a beaker of nitroglycerine into a room and set it down without *that* exploding, right? How fricking picky can you be?

  • July 25, 2007, 3:31 p.m. CST

    ah..

    by emeraldboy

    ok then. I was just over at Yahoo. Ahnuld is eyeing the presidency. Looks like it maybe about to come true. One dumb ass after another. Is there no way to rid america of the repulicans. I know Arnie has a business degree and is a lot smarter then people think. But Mike judge is right the us is going down the toilet. Expect the republicans to start making there arnie for america, arnie 2013 posters. oh dear god, god help america, god help us all. is there any way to rid the us of the republicans.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:33 p.m. CST

    ZB.BROX, Sorry I missed your earlier post.

    by Ringwearer9

    Perhaps I should have qualified my statement to "backed off extremely" from her theme that seemingly friendly characters can be evil, and seemingly nasty characters can be good. Because she totally didn't follow up on any of the bad behavior of Fred and George. And the biggest "evil" character, Snape, she totally neglected until that rapid Pensieve flashback that paints him as a pathetic mooner over Harry's mom. Were those elements there? Sure, but Rowling didn't want to dwell on them much, or thought her audience would prefer more wacky action with the Trio bouncing around grabbing Horcruxes and dodging StarWars colored wand blasts. Despite even the foreshadowing at the beginning of Hallows that there might be a traitor in the Order ... nothing comes of it. Snape was good, but all he did was send Harry to a cold swim for the Gryffindor sword. Snape doesn't even get to heroically die saving Harry, just pathetically murdered because Voldemort mistakenly thinks it will make Voldy's wand more powerful. I guess Rowling just didn't want to take any of the limelight away from Harry.<p> Kreacher's conversion was a little sudden and wierd. What happened to Dumbledore's comment about "wounds too deep for healing"? The point SHOULD have been that Harry ought to be nice to Kreacher, whether or not Kreacher is nice to Harry. The sudden "oh, you gave me a Black relic, thank you thank you" conversion was pretty unbelievable. Compare Kreacher to Tolkien's Gollum and get back to me. <p> As for Dumbledore being more "morally complex" ???? That's very much what I mean when she abandoned the story's themes. In a story like this, you do need a moral center, someone who is able to rise above hate and vengeance and see clearly. I thought Dumbledore WAS that person, and that Harry's journey would be to rise above his own rages and hurts and need for vengeance, and see people with compassion the way Dumbledore did, including Snape. But what does Rowling do? Instead of have Harry learn bad things about himself, and learn to reject bad things about himself, and learn to love his enemies a bit, she just writes into the story (and don't for one second tell me she planned this all along) the fact tha Dumbledore and Grindlewald once plotted to rule the world as teenagers!!!!!! Along with other Dumbledore-besmirching revelations, this serves merely to indulge Harry, and Harry fans who were all annoyed with the cranky "emo" Darth Vaderish Harry in Order of the Phoenix. Dumbledore was morally tainted, so therefore.... it's totally up to Harry ... he doesn't have to learn from anyone, just trust his own instincts, and Yay! Harry was Right Again, and Harry Saves the Day Again, with the help of his loyal, admiring friends. Pure pablum, pure indulgence, pure crap.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:36 p.m. CST

    Arnold is not eyeing the presidency...

    by Frijole

    All he said is that it would be silly for someone in his position to not have ever thought about going further and that he would certainly be for an amendment allowing people who were not born in the US run for the office. He's not an idiot... I gathered (easily) from the clip that he knows it is a longshot and that he doesn't really think it's an option in the forseeable future. Not exactly "eyeing the presidency". Either way, that is a discussion for another talkback and doesn't need to be here anyway.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:36 p.m. CST

    Ringworm, please tell me

    by Bloo

    you never tortoured tormented harressed and "beat up" your siblings...or...you're an only child aren't you<P>I knew it<P> this is why you can't relate to George and Fre you've never either been in that situation nor have ;you had the older brothers who pick on you<P>I know when I was in my 20s and my little brother was around 13, 14 I powerbombed him through a couch, doesn't mean I didn't love him or I'm some kind of Nazi. I also made up weird concotions and fed them to him. I would reach under his bed while he was sleeping and scare him. it's called normal human behavior, is that something you have a hard time understanding.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:39 p.m. CST

    I dont geniuenly undertstand

    by emeraldboy

    why wb is releasing these in the summer? Bizaare. I mean are they scared of the golden compass and narnia movies. A christmas looking movie in july looks daft. The release of POA proved. In the summertime the cineplexes arent exactly stuffed. A moviehouse on a sweltering day is not the place to be.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:44 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer

    by Frijole

    So your issue is not that themes weren't touched upon (and your belief that they are only lightly touched on is way off base... it's the whole point of the fucking book and ultimately the series), it is WHO they were touched upon in regards to. Projecting your own ideas onto the series and what it SHOULD have been in YOUR eyes is not a critique at all. It's a copout excuse to be a miserable bastard. For someone who knows so much about the series, you really are painfully clueless about it at the same time. As for your feelings about Harry triumphing and remaining the moral center (even though even he *gasp* struggles with serious internal and external turmoil) of the story- the EXACT same thing can be said of a little hobbit named Frodo Baggins.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Emeraldboy

    by Frijole

    With the exception of the first two movies... the movies have been released roughly 16-18 months apart... Giving them a staggered summer/ holiday/summer/holiday release schedule. I agree that they seem to "feel" right more in the fall/wintertime/holiday season, but if that were the case with every movie, we'd be waiting two years for each new one instead of as year and a half. Plus it all evens out in the end (or close to it)... when the installments released in the summer are ready for big holiday releases on DVD.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:48 p.m. CST

    Yes, Ringy is an only child.

    by DocPazuzu

    And a virgin.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:48 p.m. CST

    Release date for HBP

    by Frijole

    is Thanksgiving-time next year.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:48 p.m. CST

    Release date for HBP

    by Frijole

    is Thanksgiving-time next year.

  • July 25, 2007, 3:49 p.m. CST

    And I guarantee the release date for DH

    by Frijole

    will fall in line with the opening of THE WIZARDING WORLD OF HARRY POTTER at Universal's Islands of Adventure (which is currently set to drop rope in very late '09).

  • July 25, 2007, 3:53 p.m. CST

    Yeah, it's a bean.

    by Frijole

    But it's also the name of a character in the movie THE CONVENT (no, not THE COVENANT)... which is what I actually picked it for.

  • July 25, 2007, 4 p.m. CST

    Yep. That's the one.

    by Frijole

    The movie is bottomlessly ridiculous. But it is also very very entertaining (to me). I just can't help but love a movie thats opening scene is that of a 50s/60s Catholic-School girl in a leather jacket going apeshit on a chapel with a gun and molotav cocktails and a baseball bat... all in slo-mo and to the tune of "You Don't Own Me". Oh and then there's the daygloravezombienuns... Heh.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:04 p.m. CST

    To each his own. :)

    by Frijole

    Unless Ringy is concerned.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:16 p.m. CST

    The glory of Netflix...

    by Frijole

    It's cut my impulse DVD buying by probably 70%.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:16 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9--

    by zb.brox

    Not only were those elements there, they were more obvious than ever. <p>I think you have some sort of problem with people making mistakes. You're upset that Dumbledore had a months-long flirtation with world domination as a teenager, as if that makes him less wise and good *now*. The fact is, Rowling is *clearly* a fan of redemption, and of heroes that make mistakes and learn from them. Dumbledore's selfishness cost him his sister, and his relationship with his brother. He learned from that, and became a better person for it. Harry's inability to control his emotions cost him his godfather, and he learned from that. Snape's willingness to participate in the deaths of others because he needed approval and aggrandizement cost him the woman he loved, and he learned from that. Malfoy makes mistakes, and learns. Ron makes mitakes, and learns. Percy makes mistakes, and learns. The characters all do things that they shouldn't, they all do things that are *bad*, but the ones who learn from it are portrayed as heroic, and are generally forgiven. The one who refuses to learn from his mistakes is Voldemort, and that's why he loses, and why he's the most evil character in the series. He does wrong, but never feels remorse.<p>As for Kreacher, it wasn't just that *he* changed, it was that Harry, Ron, and Hermione changed in their behavior toward him. When they took the time to understand him, Harry and Ron curbed their response to him, and he (over the course of several weeks) reciprocated. It may have read as sudden, I agree, but that is largely due to time-lapse, not unbelievability of the basic premise. In any case, this is yet another example of how Rowling takes a complex view of the natures of her characters. Oddly enough, despite your criticism that Rowling has made the characters more "black and white" in this book, you seem to be arguing for a far more black and white moral judgment--Fred and George do "bad things", therefore they shouldn't be portrayed as essentially heroic. Dumbledore made mistakes in his youth, therefore he isn't a suitable moral authority for Harry to aspire to. Kreacher was damaged and broken, therefore he should be, like Gollum, essentially unredeemable. Snape was good, therefore he should get an obvious "hero moment" by dying heroically. That, in particular, I find unfathomable--why does Snape have to DIE heroically when he LIVED heroically?<p>I also find it inconceivable you really believe what you said about Harry not having to learn to reject the bad parts of himself, or to love his enemies. Harry learns he has darkness he has to counter-act in book five. He learns that being a hero sometimes means sacrificing what you want most when he chooses to go after the Cup rather than the Elder Wand. He learns that you have to love your enemies a little bit when his hated cousin expresses concern for him, when Narcissa Malfoy saves his life, when he learns to pity Draco, when he learns that however much he may have despised Snape he was a hero, and most of all when he sees what waits for Voldemort in the afterlife and encourages him to try and heal his soul with remorse instead of damaging it further with killing. Your criticisms here have no basis in text or fact, and it's clear that the problem you have with the books is not your imagined abandonment of themes or the supposed moral bankruptcy, but the fact that for whatever reason you had concocted specific expectations for how you saw each character playing out, and can't now deal with them being taken in another direction. I'm sorry, but that's not a failure on the part of Rowling.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:21 p.m. CST

    Ancient spirits of evil, transform this decayed form...

    by VenkmanBurnInHell

    ...into VenkmanBurnInHell! I read a book on speed reading, took me four weeks...skimming the above, I have gathered the following: "Hagrid was toast...He could have been balls out...It seems nobody's touched on these yet. Two big...and accessible..buggers...Both have made livings off of patching together other people's insufferable jackhole". Hmmm...Tony Buzan you bellend. Reading the book, I have to say I thought, "how in the name of sweet baby James are they going to film that fucker?" Then I figured they'd employ talented writers and such - the cunning little vixens. Anyway, book's good...epic and shit. Epic in the way that Pullman is. Untill now, his stuff mad HP look like a dirty protest. Yeah.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:37 p.m. CST

    Yeah, I had issues with the site earlier this week

    by Frijole

    and then this morning, get an email telling me my monthly rate has gone DOWN. Glory be. And to sb.brox... I agree completely. You said what I said previously, but in far greater detail and Ringy's gonna have a hard time worming out on such a clear, pointed argument. (So that means he probably won't be back.)

  • July 25, 2007, 4:42 p.m. CST

    Frijole--

    by zb.brox

    Thanks. Unfortunately, what seems self-evident to you or I can probably be hotly disputed by someone with more agenda than reason.

  • July 25, 2007, 4:47 p.m. CST

    I know it's Potter, but....

    by www.valiens.com

    Why do you deal in books and video games but not in pro wrestling?

  • July 25, 2007, 5:01 p.m. CST

    Bloo, aren't you sorry you beat up your little brother?

    by Ringwearer9

    You were 20? A fucking ADULT ? and it 's perfectly okay that you physically overpowered a 13 year old? That was pretty fucking immature of you, and it's pretty fucking disturbing that you are bragging about it in public. If your parents had seen this, would they have been proud? I had younger sisters and brothers, and yes, I sometimes bullied or scared or pushed them around, but didn't think it was NORMAL, I had the decency to feel bad about it, and still do feel bad about those times I did it. That's because I GREW THE FUCK UP. Adults don't accept what kids "normally" do, they try to direct them to being better human beings than "normal". Grownups who see one kid mistreating another are supposed to STOP it, because they are grownups. Rowling's role, as author, should be that of a grownup. Instead, she plays the role of Petunia Dursley with Harry as Dudley. She is indulgent, and any friends of Harry's, no matter what vile things they do, are fine with her. She ought to have taken the Grownup role, and tried to guide Harry (and friends) to be better human beings, but no, it's all about indulgence. Does she see the irony in condeming Dudley for being obese and having too many toys, and then sending Harry off to Hogwarts where he eats as much candy and sausages and pie as he likes, gets tons of magical toys, and has friends who help him do his homework? I don't think she has a clue how retarded her moral view of the world is, or how blind and childish her own infatuation with the character of Harry is.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:14 p.m. CST

    I'm gonna come right out... FUCK YOU, Ringwearer

    by Frijole

    It is Rowling's responsibility to treat her young characters as though they were adults??? That's absolutely, completely and without question IDIOTIC! You're grasping at straws and arguing yourself to a corner and back instead of addressing honest cricisms of your little hissyfits. If your pompous attitude and stunted reasoning (to say nothing of your reading comprehension... you seem to have an encyclopedic knowlege of the events and characters of a series that you find so contemptible- but no real UNDERSTANDING of it)weren't bad enough... your pious sense of supeior morality really takes the cake. You really are the worst type of asshole.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:25 p.m. CST

    Ringwearer9--

    by zb.brox

    What, exactly, are you suggesting Rowling should do to Fred and George to punish them for being mean to their brother? Are you suggesting that all fiction should be a morality play--that people *must* be brought to task for all their moral violations? That an author writing about children have a responsibility to parentally guide those children? This is flat-out ludicrous. <br>Speaking of ludicrous, you are once again blatantly misconstruing Rowling's text to try and find something to complain about. When Rowling makes fun of Dudley for being fat, A: the story is told *from Harry's perspective*, if he makes fun of Dudley for being fat, so, therefore, does the text, and B: generally the source of the mockery is not "Dudley is fat" (there are several characters described as fat or at least plump who are well-liked, after all), it is "look at Dudley's family indulging him so greatly that they deny the fact he's fat". When she makes fun of Dudley for getting lots of presents, the joke, you may recall, is that when Dudley receives 36 birthday presents he *expects more*. He has the expectation of gross of indulgence, and has no sense of gratitude for it. This is in *stark* contrast to Harry, who is portrayed as being grateful for pretty much everything he gets. The lesson here is NOT "fat, rich people are bad", it's "appreciate the things others do for you."

  • July 25, 2007, 5:29 p.m. CST

    Thanks zb

    by Frijole

    I flew off the handle there and thought better of it seconds after I hit 'post comment'. I know poking the monkey is a futile endeavor... but actually letting one get me that pissed off is just silly. Your post calmed me back down.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:31 p.m. CST

    Ringworm,

    by Bloo

    I didn't "beat up" my borther, we were wrestling around, I picked him up and powerbombed him and accidently broke a couch, it wasn't like I powebombed him hard or in anger, it was simly an accident of 2 brothers who love each other wrestlinga round.<P>I heard a pychologist once say that man and espically brothers tend to have more difficulty in showing affection toward one another, espically in America, that's why we see boys wrestling around with each other. I don't mean this in a sexual way, but like you see if you have ever travled, men in other countries don't tend to by so stigmitzed by the "gay" apperence so they do things like hold hands in public, kiss on the cheek, etc. America with our "I'm not gay, I'm a man" attitude, wrestle. It wasn't out of maliciounes it's out of love and playfullness<P>now regarding Fred and George, there is a line in Order of the Phoenix, I belive just before they escape that says something "we've always bent the rules but we knew where the line was so we wouldn't get expelled". That's the key, a joker, a clown, may stretch things, may know, but knows when too much is too much, as they grow up. fred and George in OotP, were just starting to grow up, . they buy Ron nice new dress robes, as Harry requested, they are beginning to learn the basics of buinsess, etc. As they continue to grow up in HBP, you see even a greater maturing take place as they move from merry pranksters with a panchant for Civil Disobediance into shrewed businessmen who make their family proud of them, still with a lean toward civil disobediance and subversivness (i.e. You No Poo). At the end of Dh, they have learned the cost of war, how it effects everyone and families. Their shop has been closed, they are full envolped into the Order and doing their work with Lee in the Undergroud with the radio broadcasts. They both volunteer, knowing full well the cost, of helping Harry both times (at the Dursley's and at Hogwarts) and suffer, George and ear and Fred his life.<P>You speak of growing up, I think Fred and George are a fine example of young men who really grow up in those books. Sure we don't see the pain and the angst that Harry goes through, but we do see a maturing on their part, and ultimatly that's what these stories are, they are a coming of age tale, and all the char. come of age, including Fred and George.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:32 p.m. CST

    Also--

    by zb.brox

    No one ever said it was perfectly okay that siblings are cruel to each other. What they said was that is is *normal*. "Normal" and "Desirable" are not the same thing. But the fact is, that is almost always the case to one degree or another with siblings. The fact that Fred and George don't apologize for it to Ron in-text doesn't mean they don't feel bad about it--they didn't actually *do* these things to Ron in-text either, after all. Even if they had, my siblings and I have been mean to each other plenty of times over the years, and we rarely apologized without being forced to. Being sorry and admitting you're sorry are different things. Rowling is the author of the books, not Fred and George's mother, she's under no obligation to punish them for the things they do wrong.

  • July 25, 2007, 5:33 p.m. CST

    But is it WARWICK DAVIS's hair???

    by Frijole

    I was actually shocked to find out recently that Davis was not ANY of the 7 or 8 people to don the HOWARD THE DUCK suit...