Cool News
Moriarty Checks In With Michael Moore’s SICKO!
Hey, everyone. “Moriarty” here.
One of the reasons I don’t get particularly excited one way or another about the release of a new Michael Moore film is because I know so much of the conversation about the movie won’t be about the movie. It can’t be about the movie, because the issues that the film addresses are so large that any two hour film is just barely going to be able to scratch the surface of the conversation that needs to happen if America is serious about taking care of its health care needs.
I’m reluctant to use the word “crisis.” I’m not sure I think there’s a health care “crisis,” but I might be willing to capitulate to a health care “massive clusterfuck.” I think that might be a slightly more accurate description of the state of things. Somewhere right now, Paddy Cheyefsky laughs and laughs at us, secure in the knowledge that he saw it all coming down Broadway. Media, health care, sports... he was the best of the social bullies, the writers who pushed a particular sort of dramatic moral agenda. I always get the sense that Michael Moore fancies himself the sort of rock star journalist that Hunter Thompson was during the days of the counterculture, the same sort that Murrow was in his day. I think he also has this profound need to cut his movies for the drama. I think he can’t resist the big gesture. I think he’s a shameless ham and a self-promoter, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. It’s just that he deals with such important topics, and I think many audiences just sort of believe whatever the last thing they saw told them was true. I think as long as someone asserts something with authority, audiences pretty much take things as fact. When someone watches a “documentary,” they have a reasonable expectation that what they see is presenting a factual look at its subject. Or maybe a subjective look at the facts. Maybe that’s what Moore is really after. He’s got a fiction writer’s need to edit the story, to emphasize one fact or exclude another. And again... I’m not saying he’s wrong to do so. That’s who he is as a filmmaker. At his very best, he’s turned out work that mixed comedy and news at least as well as THE DAILY SHOW. For my money, I still think TV NATION and THE AWFUL TRUTH were the moments where Moore really hit on all cylinders.
SICKO is a better movie than either BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE or FAHRENHEIT 9/11, a more compassionate and human film than either of those. The self-aggrandizing is turned down a low hum in this film. Moore doesn’t even appear for about the first hour of the movie. He speaks occasionally in voice-over, but for a while, he’s content to just let people tell their own stories. And they are certainly affecting. When he starts telling horror stories about people trapped in the health care system in America, I think it’s smart stuff. Maybe the single best choice he makes in the film is focusing on the people in the system instead of those outside of it. It’s a given that life absolutely sucks for anyone unable to get health care in this country, but Moore has wisely decided to show how it can be just as big a nightmare for people who have insurance, who feel like they should be taken care of, but who aren’t. I think if SICKO was just a film about our own problem and the various human faces that Moore puts on it, it might be his best film.
But no. Instead, he chooses to do something in the second half of the film that pretty much derails it for me. It’s true that America ranks low on the list of Western countries in terms of how well our health care system works, but when Moore travels to Canada or to France or to England or to, God help him, Cuba in order to make that point, he can’t resist that urge of his I mentioned earlier. By including certain things and excluding others, Moore gives all the ammunition to his critics that they would ever need to discredit him. Canada does indeed have socialized medicine, and it’s not a terrible system. But Moore makes it look like paradise here. Same with England. Same with France. And, yes, same with Cuba. And I’m sorry... but anyone who paints Cuba as a paradise in any social regard is not playing fair. I’ve known many Cubans over the years, both living in Tampa and living here in LA, and many of the people I know have lived in Cuba and have family there still. And the Cuba that Moore presents in this movie is, as best I can tell, a fiction. I think that the individual people he shows are real, and I was moved by the scene involving the Cuban firemen meeting the American rescue workers. But if Michael Moore honestly thinks that everyone in Cuba... each and every citizen... is being given the quality of health care that he presents in his film... then he’s a fool. And if he doesn’t believe it, then he’s a liar. And either way, I’m distressed by the material in the movie.
I wish I loved SICKO unreservedly, because I think there are things in this movie that every American should see. I think there is a conversation to be had, and I think Moore has offered an interesting way to start that conversation. But the film could have been so much more, and I’m afraid that Moore has become one of those filmmakers who is unable to keep himself from ruining his own work at this point. SICKO is flawed but fascinating, a mix of the naïve and the absolutely right. It is, in all ways, a Michael Moore film, and I wish he was growing as a filmmaker instead of settling into familiar tricks. At this point, I guess a film of his that plays fair for at least half its running time is all I can ask.
I just wish that weren’t the case.
Drew McWeeny, Los Angeles
Drew McWeeny, Los Angeles
-
+ Expand All
-
i want to see this... but i cringe every time moore pulls a, well, michael moore. he's obviously got talent as a documentarian - but he just can't resist getting involved. and, like moriarty said - he just ends up giving ammunition to his critics, derailing the debate.
-
Because while I'm sure there are things about the health care in Canada and Britain, among others, that aren't as rosy as the film portrays, their health care setup (through taxation though it may be) is still light years better than the profit over people construct we have in this country now.
-
analized in the comming weeks and months. It will also be interesting to see how it will do at the box office since it's not an issue many people think or care about.
-
... I'm sure they are better. But my question remains the same: if Michael Moore is making the right points, why does he have to resort to half-truths to make those points?
-
I can't speak to the accuracy of Moore's depiction of the foreign countries (and I agree/recognise, his films are editorials-- not full, factual explorations) BUT...
A couple of columnists who I respect who CAN speak to the accuracy with personal experience say its a fair presentation of the foreign health systems. I thought it the most powerful point of the film because it showed that it doesn't HAVE to be the massive clusterfuck that it is. -
But the health care system in the rest of the world is NOT better than the US. Go ahead, live outside of the US and then receive healthcare the way you can in the US. I have. It is a joke. Sure, it is free and you may even get a doctor to come to your house when you are sick, but if you need surgery and you are not about to die... good luck on the waiting list.
-
You list no half truths, you simply don't agree politically with Moore, so you are unable to give his movie a good review. You list no errors, half truths, or lies. Just be honest. You're a conservative and you hate Moore. You're just as 'Fair and Balanced' as Fox News.
-
No, Moore doesn't rule the US political system through the power of his film making-- but aren't you setting the bar a bit high there? I didn't come away from "Bowling" frothing at the mouth for gun control, but I DID come away deeply impressed at how EVERY explanation for the higher US violence rate fails the logic test. And I came away with the indelible film image of a man saying he couldn't understand where the kids got the violence culture while standing in front of the ICBM he was working on assembling -- for that moment alone Moore deserves cred as a filmaker. Moore's is just one voice in the vox politic, but its a good one.
-
Here in the US, I had to wait 7 months to see my insurance company approved Gastroenterologist. Its a myth that long waits to see a specialist don't happen here in the USA. I know from personal experience.
-
to pay attention to the big issues. Its the population's job to choose people to learn about these things and make decisions. But since commercially available broadcast advertising (limited, regulated, auctioned to the highest bidder) has trumped all other forms of political discourse, the selection process has become hopelessly perverted. This will correct itself in about 20-30 years with the demise of broadcasting but for now the US political system inevitably, exclusively reflects monied interests. Just remember the health insurance industry's "Harry and Louise" ads that sunk "Hillary's" plan in 92 and helped turn over control of congress.
-
When Moore's message is 'Question Thy Government', a government who in itself lies and manipulates to assure that its people do not consider alternate viewpoints, then by my reasoning it matters not how one goes about spreading that message. As long as people will listen...
-
Yes the health care system is better than the US, but I hear Moore says canada has a 30 min wait. Hmmm I seem to remember waiting 5 hrs to see a doctor on my emergency visit. Alberta is trying to US'ify their system, charge 50 a month per person to have the honour of waiting. What is worse is that 50/m is charged to everyone!
-
Michael Moore specializes in propaganda as entertainment. Propaganda is the art of presenting a point of view or agenda as the truth, using words and images which evoke an emotional response in order to ensure that people agree with that truth. We are subjected every day to propaganda masquerading as the News and don't even blink an eye. The artfulness of Michael Moore films is that he really doesn't try to hide the fact that he is manipulating our emotions or that he is engaging in the art of propaganda. If anything, he is so heavy-handed with it, I think part of his mission is to wake people up to how they can be manipulated. If people are too stupid to notice that Moore is using these techniques, then I feel sad for them. However when people catch on to the idea of Moore's sense of showmanship...whether you love or hate that he is blatantly manipulating you... the end result will be the same and purposeful. He will have forced you to think about something. He will have provoked you into discussion or action or finding out the real truth because you don't trust his vision of it...but certainly no-one walks away from a Moore film and easily forgets the things he wants you to remember. Haven't seen this movie yet but will see it soon.
-
His point is not that all of these places with socialized health care are paradises with perfect systems. He's simply showing the irony that in our powerful country, we have the means of creating a better system because HEY LOOK, these waaaay weaker countries have somehow done it.
-
because, according to Bowling for Columbine, we apparently have no crime. Moriarty's right: the weakest part of Moore's films are where he paints other countries' healthcare systems as magical paradises. Yes, universal healthcare is better than the fucked-up system that the US has, but you could just as easily make a documentary about the many and various buereaucratic absurdities of nationalised healthcare in the UK or Canada or France, e.g. in the UK, your entitlement to various anti-cancer drugs or new treatments for things like diabetes or macular degeneration depend entirely on which postcode you live in, because the availability of funding is decided by the local NHS trust. Moore is right to rail against the absurdities of private care in the US, but he's completely wrong to suggest that nationalised, universal healthcare doesn't also involve heart-rending resource allocation decisions. God forbid if you've got a rare illness that only a highly expensive wonder drug will cure, because - in all likelihood - universal health care won't pay for that drug either.
-
A two hour film isn't going to make or break the debate. I give Moore credit for tackling the issue, but if his past efforts are any indication, his tactics are going to leave much to be desired. My opinion? The system's not totally broken, but it's far from perfect. Do other nations do it better? Obviously its not a clear-cut victory for their method, either. I do have sincere doubts about our federal government administrating healthcare, because their track record warrants that. Education, social security, fuck they've been building the border fence on the Mexican side and didn't know it!!! Its ineptitude as a bureaucracy deserves some serious scrutiny before it gobbles up even more power over our lives. Just my thoughts.
-
One of the few hard rules of docu work that Moore chucks out the window from day one. You're exactly right about TV Nation being his real peak.A very good review, by the way.
-
Jun 30, 2007 9:18:09 AM CDT
Moriarty---Don't think of it as a Lie--You Don't Get it
by lour reed luvs frank zappa
If at some points the movie ranges into territory where the facts seem less concrete, where you know that what he presents is disputable, that doesn't necessarily detract from the film's overall purpose. I think it's unfair to call Moore's films pure documentaries, it's obvious that they aren't. They are meant to be influential and thus have biases which reveal themselves in the facts he chooses to use and ignore. That said, in this movie the omissions he makes I think are forgivable, they are omissions that , if included, would only really drag the pace of the film down. It has to stick to a theme and keep advocating it--and he can't do that without presenting a clear line of logic. For instance his use of comparison--yes it isn't flawless, but it's a rhetorical device to point out the very inhuman nature of much of American healthcare--he has to stick to that theme to continue his film. Yes he could have focused on poor living conditions in Cuba, xenophobia in France, and countered those arguments with the way America treats its lower classes and the continuing prevalence of racism in this country, BUT he didn't because that would've taken away from the film's focus. I hope you understand my point by now.
-
Jun 30, 2007 9:21:03 AM CDT
And Look at What BDT Said For Even More Illumination
by lour reed luvs frank zappa
A few posts above
-
And if you think that these elements don't exist in even the fictional, normal entertainment we watch, you're terribly mistaken. Just look at any contemporary maintstream U.S. movie that tries to depict a class or race, it's really frightening and disgusting how one-dimensional these depictions are. You want to worry about omission? Try looking at movies that show a black neighborhood as always booming rap music, with ominous people shifting around in the dark, everyone brandishing guns.. if you want omission, just look at your average mainstream movie and how it continues to dehumanize anyone that isn't a white middle class man. Just like in politics, hollywood has it's own language that it uses in its films--it's marketing--they use familiar images and sounds to show "that's a black neighborhood." I'd rather that is altered than Moore's filmmaking style.
-
He's a socialist. He promotes socialism by cutting his films to show US capitalism always failing against socialized programs in any country, on any debate. And because his disdain for the US runs so deep, he cannot help himself show it fail in even the most absurd cases, like Cuba.If Sicko was an honest film he would have shown health care in China, which is the real dark side of socialized medicine. Even PBS/NPR have covered how scary that shit is. But Moore couldn't bring himself to do it, because it would take the hate off the US.If the man was about questioning his government, he'd be a Libertarian. But he's far, far, far away from that.
-
If he's arguing about health care.
-
the guy is actually more pro-american than i am, he's actually fervently pro-american. If you watch the movie you'll see what I'm talking about. It is indeed a form of questioning government.
-
"I didn't like the second half because he didn't tell me America is the greatest country in the world."
-
Whatever you think of the guy, he tore this film a new asshole, and most of his points are valid. http://tinyurl.com/2d3b76
-
If it's emergency medicine you need then socialised healthcare works a treat. Nobody has an accident and gets left behind or runs up a huge bill that they can't afford to pay.
However, as has been said, if you need anything above and beyond that (consultations, drugs, whatever) then good luck to you, as people have DIED waiting to be seen by the NHS doctors. The beauracracy and waste has to be seen to be believed, and believe me I've seen it.
A two-tier system is best. Those who can afford to pay for their own healthcare should be encouraged to do so whilst the state takes care of those who can't. -
Docu's are not, were not, meant to be advocating one thing or another, unless they are retrospectives. Contemporary - meaning of the moment - docu's are supposed to be objective and let the occurring material speak for itself. They are not supposed to start with a conclusion and reverse engineer because of a "purpose". That is propaganda.And how is it unfair to judge Moore's films as docu's when he accepts an Oscar over other docu's? How is it unfair when the only way a person is legally allowed to travel to Cuba is if they are a journalist? If Moore's not making a docu by journalistc standards, then why is he using that framework? You're the one trying to change the parameter, because it's the only way to justify his agitprop as advocacy and not call it that.As for your generalized fictional examples, how many shows do I have to list where the corporate white guy is the villain? Sum Of All Fears, 24, The Day After, Batman Begins, Superman Returns, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, X-Men, Day After, Syriana, V for Vendetta, Die Hard, etc...
-
I think, overall, you give a good review. But I have to take issue when you say calling the American healthcare system a "crisis" is being extreme and that calling it a "massive clusterfuck" is more appropriate. As an uninsured adult I am completely shut out of this system. I pay 100% if anything happens to me. When I did have full coverage insurance through an ex-employer I was repeatedly denied claims despite having checked to make sure everything was covered (never anything more than routine check-ups). My daughter is currently covered by the state, luckily, because there is absolutely no way my wife and I could afford insurance and rent. Thankfully, soon I will be insured through my current employer where I just began full-time. But only a serious medical problem will tell if I'll actually be covered. At any rate, I do plan on seeing the film and deciding for myself what I think about it.
-
Loder counterpoints the stories in SICKO with the stories from a right-wing documentary (25 whole minutes long, only viewable on the internets) called "Dead Meat". What a joke.
-
When people argue the conservative facts to support their point, or the liberal facts to support their point, they're all correct. Without any editorializing, you can present a very biased view simply by including what supports your idea and excluding what does not. The Daily Show and Fox News both show many, many truths. Millions of things are true about any subject. It's a question of what truths go unmentioned by either the right or the left wing viewpoint, more than it is about one side out-and-out lying.
-
Their main argument against him seems to be that his films are one-sided, they adhere to his own specific agenda. WELL OF COURSE THEY DO! Moore presents his view on an issue, why on earth would he want to also show opposing views? If Moore showed every angle on these issues he'd be making 12 hour films. The fact is he presents his point of view, he uses what helps support his view and disregards that which does not, he'd be a moron not to. Every documentary is skewed to suit the filmmaker vision, even wildlife films, the only reason Moore's films are so painstakingly scrutinised is because he's famous and controversial.
-
Documentaries would not be entertaining as movies unless they had a point of view and used the tools filmmakers have to tell the story they want to tell. Even journalists. Most people are so crafty about constructing the "truth" they are selling in documentaries, that you might be less likely to question it. Anything can be slanted by perception, prejudice, human nature, emotions and shape the truth as the storyteller sees fit to tell it. Just because someone uses slicker techniques than Moore doesn't make them a more honest documentarian or that the truths they are presenting are more truthful. It just means that you are not meant to notice the difference between someone's POV and a fully fleshed out factual truth. I don't think Moore cares about doing that because that is not his style as a filmmaker. If he were doing a research paper for a university, I might think twice about his presentation of facts. The point is, he is makes a MOVIE with real people talking about real experiences...which are usually subjective in nature, and therefore can be flawed factually. This qualifies as a documentary whether you or not you like the way he approaches his subject.
-
That Sasha Cohen bloke knows how blend fact and fiction through brilliant editing tricks and manipulation! Also, Moore's character isn't as funny as Borat or Ali G, he's not even as funny as Bruno. I'd rather see Borat's take on American health care, he could compare it to Kazakstan.
-
Anyone who watches this should really re-read The Bill of Rights and the Constitution as well as the Declaration of Independence..
Health care in the United States is the best in the world.. That is why people from Europe and Canada where health care is Universal come when they get put on a waiting list for a major life and death surgery come to America where they know they will get treated quickly and efficiently.
This is a pure propaganda piece as was F911 and BFC. Anyone who falls for this propaganda is not only Anti-American, but should re-think how well their last Dr. visit went..
Another major issue is Universal Healthcare.. In America, we produce the most medicine's and cure's thru research and development than any country in the world.. Why? Because of our free market system which allows for lots more money to be pumped into R&D. IN America we already help the poorest of the poor and everyone who can't afford medications. It is called Medicaid..The system has its problems but those problems would be far worse if we had Universal health care..And do you think Michael Moore and Al Gore would actually wait in line for an operation in America like everyone else.. Hell No...They will go to a private hospital which would prove their hypocrisy.. -
Only that it had a better, more compassionate health care system than ours. That was the sole focus of his visit, not the regime the Cubans lived under. Some might say that's a lie of omission, but the focus of his film was health care. It infuriates me when people say socialized medicine sucks, you have to wait forever for treatment and blah blah. Then make it better! Demand it be better! If people want to fork over millions to an HMO that should be there right, but there should also be a National Health Care system for those who need it.
-
http://www.be-something.com/2007/06/27/a-list-of-lies-and-untruths-in-michael-moores-sicko/
-
It is called Medicaid... Anyone who truly needs it and can't afford an HMO get their care and medications for free..
-
It's arbitrary to assume that within art exist static categories, and that things can't change. I think you could argue that this is a type of documentary, but certainly not one which adheres to the boundaries we traditionally set for them. Yes it's necessary to make that distinction because it obviously isn't as rigidly objective as a typical documentary. But that still doesn't stop it from being a good and noteworthy movie. It may even lean towards propoganda, but I think its timing is right and I think, like BDR said, that it is self-conscious of its heavy-handed tactics.. maybe even pointing out how those tactics have so thoroughly saturated politics and political docos
-
is that his films are all about him, more than anything else.
He's PT Barnum with a camera and a political agenda. There's a certain dishonesty to the way he presents his films, as if the truth isn't as important as it is for Moore to needle those he doesn't like.
For Moore, I get the impression that the controversy he causes is more important than the message. Which is a shame, as he's tackled several crucial issues facing our nation, and added absolutely nothing to the dialogue, aside from giving his opposition a Michael Moore-sized club to swing at his Left-leaning compatriots.
As a liberal, I really do think that Moore does just as much damage as he does good. Because of his previous work, there is now an organized resistance to any message he presents. And the issue is forever colored in conservative thought as involved with Moore. Thus, there's to be no meaningful dialogue about gun control anymore. We can't discuss the failings of the Bush junta in the fictitious War on Terror. And now, we can't bring up healthcare without the omnipresent threat of discussing Michael Moore.
I really want to like Michael Moore. I try. And, much as I appreciate the humor he occasionally brings to the table, I'd just like him to shut the hell up so the facts can win the day. -
insurance about something that was discovered next to my brain when I was getting a CT Scan for some sinus problems. Turns out the sinus problems are nothing compared to the mass in my head. I hesitate to use the "T" word because it's too fucking depressing to think about; it's why I'm on this machine so much, anything to avoid real life.
But they'll fight you, looking for some holes in your applications to prove you lied about something, or they try to argue with the results of the tests, etc. The insurance companies make mountains of money and cry when expected to actually pay out.
As for Moore's integrity, I agree with Mori. He doesn't need to make shit up or leave out facts. The truth is damning enough. The showman in him makes him do these stupid things occasionally, but at least his films start debate. God knows you cannot count on the MSM to raise these issues. -
...that will screw you when they get the first opportunity. America is a classic case of a nation that's fallen more in love with a corporate/religious ideology than the people those systems are supposed to benefit. Enjoy, zombies.
-
You sir, are a first class idiot. You bemoan the fact that Moore ruined his film by portraying canada, france, and England as paradise.
Well sir....they ARE paradise compared to the USA hmo for profit system. Any person with half a brain knows that nothing is perfect....but Mr Moore is just trying to balance out the GREAT lie that has been fed this country. Keep us in fear and keep us demoralized so we dont even question that there are better systems out there.
I bet you never had a health crisis? Huh? I bet you never felt the pain of such a horrible system as we have.
If we did what France is doing, we'd do it even better.
But instead the big money and powers that be portray France as EVIL.....and YOU QUESTION MICHAEL MOORE FOR TRYING TO FLIP THAT MASS HYPNOSIS ON ITS EAR????
Shame on you. Mr Moore got it right. He highlighted the truth of the situation....that YES....compared to our for profit system that rewards DENYING claims....the foreign systems are INDEED PERFECT. Thats the whole friggin point you bozo ignoramus holier than thou idiot!
How dare you get all full of yourself as if you are giving a legit criticism. You cant even see the big picture.
Mr Moore is fighting the good fight. He is fighting multi billion dollar advertising budgets of the HMOs and pharma camp.
Of course he has to be biased. If it wasnt for michael moore....NO ONE would be talking about this. Everyone including the politicians would be so friggin afraid to say anything.
Moore gets a pass in my book....because he is just balancing out the equation.
anyway....its a free country. :) -
Shhhhhh. There, there. That's better.
-
imo, you're just as bad as the critics who bash Moore's films just because its Moore. If there are half truths, then list them. Take moments from the film and compare and contrast them to what you've encountered in your personal life. If the healthcare in Canada, England, France, and Cuba are worse or not as immaculate as portrayed in the film, say why. Give examples. Just noting how he supposedly stretches truths doesn't help anything. It only leaves people with as little knowledge about the subject matter as they had before watching the film.
-
Either that or people still pissed at Moore for "911" because there sure are some contrarians popping up.
-
Medicaid is only for low income people, the elderly and cripples. You have to qualify for it. There should be a National Health Care system that pays for ANYBODY who walks in through the door.
-
What is this mysterious island paradise we've discovered, this Koobah? All the medical care is free, you say? Why have I never heard of this place? Please. Anyone who doesn't know Cuba is ruled by an iron-fisted dictator (who somehow manages to be an improvement over his immedieate predecessor) hasn't read a newspaper or looked at a television in fifty years. Moore's purpose in putting the Cuba sequence in the movie has nothing to do with his personal political feelings towards Cuba, its about baiting the CoulterOReillyHannity set into going apoplectic with rage, screaming at the cameras. Its about making a movie more of a news event than an aesthetic one, so every journalist can pound the presidential candidates on their healthcare views for six straight weeks. Its dumb to assume that an artist believes or even wants to believe everything he expresses. Moore's audience, especially for this movie, isn't sitting in the theaters; they're sitting in front of the cameras.
-
I have an excuse. I'm not well.
-
Last year I had to go to the emergency room, I waited 9 hours and to this day I still owe them 3000 dollars, oh and my medication costed 160 dollars a bottle because insurance wouldn't cover it.
-
The only way that socialized medicine is allowed to exist in places like Canada is because they steal our R&D. They develop generic drugs based on our patents and sell them cheaper. America leads the world in R&D. Period. Look up the numbers. If there's no profit incentive and you destroy the free market, new machines and new medicines are going to go away. If you think the government is going to fill the void, you're kidding yourself. Consider the fact that tax rates average in the 40% range for socialized medicine countries, and you should change your mind. It's funny that Moore tries to convince you that the tax rates aren't a big burden when in the film the French people he interviews make about $8000 a month. 8x12= 96k. Not exactly average. Of course, after taxes, they only make around 58. Despite the person claiming that most scientific research is being done in Australia and the UK, that's not the case. There may be more cancer or stem cell research there, but when it comes to either pills or medical profits, we're numero uno. Because there's a profit margin for us.
-
I lived on the Canada/Detroit border most of my life, and was always amazed how many people in my doctor's waiting room or at the hospitals were Canadian, crossing the border in order to receive immediate care, instead of the weeks-to-months waiting queues common in our northern neighbor. Recently, some parts have Canada have overturned laws against private health insurance simply because the public health care system is inadequate, especially outside of major cities.BUT (and this is important) the debate is completely dependent on how you to define "better" when comparing nations. The reason the U.S. ranks below countries with socialized medicine is because a major factor in their rankings is how many people are covered. It's almost indisputable that our wealthy have the best health care coverage the world has ever known, and our poor have little-to-none.So, ultimately, which is better -- 100% of a nation having okay health care, or 50% of a nation having amazing health care, 25% having okay health care, and 25% having no health care? The answer to that question is largely dependent on which group you're in. :) But it's not quite as black/white as the pro-socialized medicine crowd makes it sound.
-
Saw SICKO last night and I'm not buying most of what Moore was slinging. You can't even drink the water there. I'm certainly glad I didn't have to rely on their health care system.
-
Oh, and if you want news that isn't "right wing biased" look at the NYT, May 27, 2007. Where Fidel Castro talks about how cuban doctors screwed up his surgery (because the good doctors come to the country where they can make money -- another side effect. Why the hell would a doctor go to med school and pay all of that money to have their livlihood cut by becoming a de facto government employee?)
Also, Matt Lauer recently did a report that stated that (June 5, Today) the average Cuban family has to turn to the black market to get prescription drugs because they're simply not available. -
I mean he was hardly on the cutting edge of reviewers, but the guy certainly made a bigger contribution to the world of film than Anna Nicole, and she got an obit...
-
Last summer I was in the hospital for over a month. I had 2 surgeries to remove 95% of my small intestine. I was about as close as you can get to dying without actually shuffling off the mortal coil. I had filled out forms to recieve unemployment (something I have never done, along with welfare) because my wife and I couldn't survive on one salary alone. First I was told that I was approved and we breathed a sigh of relief. About a week later I received a letter stating that the state would not approve my unemployment request at this time. So I called in trying to find out what was going on. They gave me the run-around for about an hour, finally I was able to talk to a supervisor. They informed me that because I could not prove that I was able to go back to work at any time that I was not approved. Even though I had a job at the time, I was going to go back to that job, and that I was not allowed to go back to work until it was approved by my doctor. So to add to the stress of already having to be in the hospital, i was no longer going to recive any help, when I had never needed it before. It is just so disheartning that some people will scam the system and are given whatever they want, when some of us work almost every day of our lives and then get told that we can't be helped because of some ridiculous beuracratic idiom.
-
Coming from the wonderful world of organized religion I am so fucking happy that Michael Moore fucks up half the time because it means that he can't be looked to like some all knowing blameless bearer of the light of truth. He's a person who talks about shit that is important to him with film. I'm glad there isn't a board room of execs or producers who are making his film more paletable. Give me your opinion open and honest even if you are wrong even if you are deluded, but talk to me like you talk to your friends and family when you make a documentary about politics.
Moore is just a guy who has the means to speak to alot of people. And we worked hard for that and he deserves it as much as anyone else who works for it(AICN).
I will see this on monday, but from his other movies, I think Moore communicated more with emotion than with statements. Like films are supposed to. Show it not say it. -
Having seen the preview screening, it got me all patriotic right in time for Canada Day.
Yes, we lock our doors. No, I don't own a gun.
But you can take our universal health care from our cold dead hands.
I was making $5 when my appendix burst. No wait in emergency because we do triage. Four days of hospital later, I signed a piece of paper that had at the bottom "Total owing: $0"
I have not had one second of complaint about our health care since.
Oh, and having been to Cuba, the places I saw were like the film shows. -
I like that people can argue about what Michael Moore is saying in Sicko because he's one guy who certainly doesn't have the answers for everyone, but he gets us talking from more than the point of view that is handed down to us from those in power. Is our health system fucked up? Hell yes! Can we as a nation fix it? Well, it didn't take us 30 years to go to Iraq and spend ourselves double into debt for them... so, yes, I think we can fix our health care system and I think it CAN happen virtually overnight if we want it to.
We all went to war because we thought we were saving our lives. Well, maybe we can fix health care... because we are saving our lives. I think it is possible. -
I am going to repost this because people keep talking about "Canadian Wait Times".
I do not understand all the talk about wait times and high taxes in Canada. I live in Alberta and I have used the Canadian health care system many times in my 38 years and I have never had to wait for anything, except maybe a couple of hours in emerge. My daughter was born May 8th by c-section and we had to wait 1 hour to be admitted to a private room. My wife was in the hospital for 3 days total and we always had 2 nurses in our room during the whole birth process. When it was determined a c-section was needed we waited 3 hours to get into the O.R. If it was an emergency c-section we would have gone to the O.R. immediately. All of this cost me nothing. There are wait times for elective surgeries, but as far as I am concerned a triage system is a lot more fair than a system based on ability to pay. Granted that Alberta has the lowest taxes in Canada, but I have a six figure pay cheque and I loose one third to taxes, total, and I get a third of that back refunded for my retirement contributions for a grand total of 2/9ths taxes. And I pay 6% sales tax.
As someone mentioned earlier, Alberta (and British Columbia) have "health care premiums" (taxes), but Alberta spends the most, per capita, on health care in Canada and defaulting on the premiums do not limit access to health care.
Americans pay almost twice as much as Canadians for health care as a percentage of GDP, morbidity rates for all the various diseases are almost identical between Canada and America, America's infant mortality rate is 50% higher than Canada's, and Canadians live, on average, 3 years longer than Americans. -
I am so sorry about your medical problems...that is terrible.
For everyone else on this TB... Look, this movie made you think and talk and engage. Love him or hate him this is what he does best. And to you, ErnieAnderson, if Americans had or even cared about the facts they could speak for themselves. Moore is not responsible for how people feel about the healthcare system or for presenting the facts and letting them speak for themselves. What he tries to do is stir things up so people leave behind their behemoth apathy and find the facts and how those facts affect them and what they can and should do about it. Individuals are responsible for their own feelings and actions and opinions, not the entertainment industry. I really HATE it when someone blames something outside themselves for not doing the right thing... especially when they blame the entertainment industry. -
Sorry to hear that.
-
Supermans is right. Anyone who disagrees with George W Bush on anything hates America. This group of people needs to be stopped. There is no room in America for dissent. America is about following the rules and doing what you're told. God bless America. (Or something like that, right?)
-
I caught this flick at a preview a while back and I think this is a one of the best reviews you'll find - because people will have real strong views about the subject they'll either be totally lapping it up or calling it's bluff. I'm not ashamed to say I was close to tears at the bit when the insurance worker was crying and telling us about the old couple she had to reject, the had all the hope in the world, thinking they were covered and she (also an innocent in this grimy business) had to tell them no. The best points in the flick are indeed when Moore stays the hell out of it. He comes off a bit patronizing at times and the bit at the end when he gloats about giving a cheque to a rival kind of shows he can't be a bigger man - he didn't need to put it in his film. I do like Moore although everything he says should not be taken as gospel - he bends the truth (maybe not as much as Bush does) but he still does it for entertainment. I found the Cuba bit hillarious more than anything, Cuba isn't the devil but it isn't a haven and Castro or some political advisor to him quite obviously sent out the big guns when theyu knew moore (now a global personality) was coming!! The "Who are We" question did get me but other things turned me against Moore - like the UK's NHS being perfect - it's a good idea - but has huge holes (still it's better than the american way) and in Canada you "never wait more than hour...ever!" I seriously doubt that. Anyway it's definately Moore's best film, he did his usual Bush bashing and got a few laughs and enlightened us to a very corrupt business that should be helping people. It's just a shame he ssometimes goes too far.
-
did anyone bash The Incredibles for painting a biased picture of the Insurance industry? No? Why...? That's entertainment.
-
Yeah, because drug companies aren't multinational or anything. Duh. Amazing the talking points the lobbyists come up with that people on the right will swallow.
-
Thanks Moriarty. I feel Moore's films and messages are very important. But at the same time, I can't stand what Moore has become.
-
Jun 30, 2007 12:21:19 PM CDT
'Sicko' numbers mostly accurate; more context needed
by thick mcrunfast
Sounds about right. From CNN: http://tinyurl.com/3aqgzy
-
Your critique of Mori's review was right on, Keep It Up
-
You need to read more. Seriously. This was a god-awful review.
-
sucked.
-
if you "socialize" your health care? (haven't seen the film, so I'm discussing this on a general basis) I'm from Norway, which has a very well functioning health care system. Granted, it’s not perfect: there are occasional waiting lists (though not for months), there's sometimes tiresome beaureaucracy (though it seems that’s the case in the US too) and there are dishonest people taking advantage of the benefits.
But it still works INFINITELY better than the US system, because we are not mixing two things that should never be mixed: welfare and profits. It is mindboggling how you guys not only accept a health care system that puts profit ahead of treating the ill, but you actually defend it?! I'm really not trying to insult either you or your country, but at some point blind nationalism becomes a bad thing. Don’t defend the American health care system just because you are American. Your health care system is cynical, heartless and ridiculous. It is absurd that an American has to basically live on the street before he is eligible for free medical care.
I pay 30% income tax (I think the average is about 36&, but I'm not really sure), which I admit can be annoying at times, but for those 30% my government supplies me with 13 years of free public school, free medical care, benefits if I'm unemployed or disabled, and a pension when I retire, and more. I would NEVER give up my free health care just pay a few percent less tax. So my question is, what are you afraid of? Is it the few percents raise in taxes, or is it that you feel you would be giving up your freedom to choose? fyi: in Norway, we are still free to choose which doctor we want to treat us. -
...you can pay to get faster treatment, which sounds pretty capitalist to me. Better a waiting list than no care at all, don'tcha think?
-
to many people live a long time now.
we are suffering our own success in increasing the life span.As the median age in this country gets older it simply cost far more for heath care.
Everything we do is a trade off, if we want to spend more on health care we can. but it will come at a cost, higher taxes will slow the economy way down and unemployment will go up.We are also willing to spend HUGE amounts of money to prolong life, DO you know what it cost to save a premature baby? or a 90 year old 3rd hip replacement?
If we just say no to these people we can cut the costs massively, but do we want too?
NOW for those of you who think nationalized health care is the best solution!
ARE YOU CRAZY!
the government is the most inefficient part of of society, it has the highest waste and the most bureaucracy.
it is sad the rest of the world is so envious of the USA. yes we have problems and can still make improvements, but i would never trade our heath care system with what any other country have. -
with facts is that it undermines the ultimate point he is trying to make. There is a valid conversation that needs to be had in this country about health insurance (please, dear God, don't let our government run it. our government fucks up everything it touches). The debate should be about that and not about Moore himself, which is enevitably what happens when a film of his comes out.
-
RE: The Cuban section, Moriarty only gives two options: "if Michael Moore honestly thinks that everyone in Cuba... is being given the quality of health care that he presents in his film... then he’s a fool. And if he doesn’t believe it, then he’s a liar."You've forgotten one possibility: what if he believes that if ANY citizen of Cuba gets better health care than ANY citizen of the U.S., it is a travesty. That would make him neither a fool nor a liar. It would be an important statement, that the "worst" cities in the U.S. should still have better public education and health care than ANYONE in Cuba.
-
I want you to name one moment in any of Moore's films you considered to be self-aggrandizing BULL. SHIT! Being from Michigan I've been a moore fan as long as I can remember and if there's anyone out there who works harder to unselfservingly help the populous I don't know who it is.
And how is Moore to offer fixes for our system unless he shows what works in other countries? Your unabashed distate for Moore was HALF of this "review" and I find it offensive. -
He is at least getting people to talk and not just showing us some PC bullshit that is on the news everday. They like to play it off like our problems are miniscule but Moore doesn't cop to that. Say what you will about the man, but at least he isn't just doing this shit for money or fame. He's looking to open peoples eyes and you can debate whether it's just propeganda or not, but it may cause people to look into it for themselves and maybe *gasp* try to do something for the betterment of their country
-
For some reason, Americans with money seem to think that they have their money because they deserve it; because they worked harder than people with no money, or because they were pre-destined to have it, and are more deserving than Joe Blow, working overtime down at the plant just to make ends meet, and afraid to quit because he might not find another job that pays ten dollars an hour. In some cases, they may be right... Maybe he shouldn't be scared to try something new, and put his family on the street. I don't doubt that a few Joe Cools out there took a chance, and were paid handsomely for it. But there aren't a lot of them out there. The others, the ones that made the money on the backs of the ever-expanding lower-middle class in the USA, are simple social Darwinists, and have no right to be, because money begets money, and lack of money begets lack of money. That's the way it's always been. Regardless of this, I find it completely ludicrous that here is the richest and most progressive nation on the planet (aside from the puritans who are trying to drag it back into the dark ages, that is), and if someone breaks a bone or develops a tumour, they have to be evaluated for their insurance before they even get treatment. You'll have to excuse me, but to me and all other citizens of modern Western nations, this is downright barbarian. There is no excuse for this lack of common decency. Here in Canada, where we have an 'imperfect' health care system (by some people's standards), one tenth of the population of the US, and one twelfth the GDP, we can afford, just, to give everyone the right to simply walk into an emergency room and be treated. Or picked up off the sidewalk, and treated without question. Forget waiting times, forget everything else. This is the way it should be in the US, but people are so concerned with keeping their money away from the unwashed masses that the fact they have socialised education blows my damn mind. If the US keeps on this course much longer, there will be some major, major problems arising out of the chaos, and not just concerning the health care system. It just amazes me that people fight against socialised medicine there. They don't realise that the US could be much, much more of a global powerhouse than it already is, with developments in every field coming fast and furious, if only they would start thinking of their fellow man, the backbone of the nation. But no, they allow corporations to have the same rights as individuals, and err on the side of industry. Look where that's gotten Detroit. And Newark. And Philly. And Buffalo. And Baltimore. As it is, I'm not comfortable living within two hours of the US border right now. I believe I'll move to... France.
-
This movie is surprisingly riviting and informative. Everyone should see it, even if you are a hater like Moriarty. I guess the same could be said for most of MM's films, but this one stands out above the others, and is not so politically charged in one direction.
-
I'm sorry, but you're wrong. What is more shocking, Britain's NHS for all its faults free to all, or the black american kid left to die outside emergency because they assumed he had no insurance? (I forget his name, but it turned out he was insured). Michael Moore's films have always informed me things I never knew about america, and informing americans about the outside world is essential. You guys get the bullshit right-wing view 24/7 as it is. No Health system is perfect because people aren't perfect and, like any system, can suffer from neglect. The NHS and Cuba's health are seen with appropriate envy, even though we all moan about it in many cases it's is actually better than the private options available. Drew has always been cautious to identify with what americans call Liberal viewpoints, I'd be cautious of his views if he has many Cuban-american friends' who I can guess would have a natural anti-Castro bias anyway. Have you ever been in a hospital outside of your morally warped country Moriarty???
-
"I urge you all to steer clear of this bunk."
People need to think for themselves NOT take YOUR advice. If people can't think for themselves THAT is THE problem.
The solution to that problem is NOT to encourage people not to listen to people YOU disagree with. That's the fucking problem with this country and this world... people NOT listening and thinking for themselves... or just plain not listening and thinking.
You are telling them to figure this out for themselves... while telling them that they should just do what you say and ignore what Michael Moore says.
How does that not make YOU exactly what you are calling Michael Moore? -
That's been clear since the beginning of this site.
-
I moved to the US a couple of years ago and I pay a lot less in taxes, but then the premiums I pay for health care bring it back close to Canadian levels. Still lower though, and I don't have to wait forever to see people, and they have machines and techniques here that Canada won't have for 10 years. Everyone knows if you need serious treatment and modern medicine, you come to the US. Of course there are problems and I hope this film gets people in power moving towards fixing things.
The funniest comment in this thread is the one who referred to Moore as 'un-self servingly' helping people. He is the biggest self-promoter around. He doesn't have to star in his movies, he can do what documentaries used to do before they became star vehicles. The problems he addresses can be presented without lying about other countries, and he doesn't need the stunts.
Does Moore still own stock in Haliburton? For such an avowed socialist he runs his personal finances on a very conservative basis. Like most rich liberals. -
...not meant to be combative at all. The insurance companies only get away with the underhanded things they do because our politicians in D.C. allow it. Like any other industry, they have lobbyists, and the politicians on both sides sell out the citizenry for power and influence. Why should we entrust those same politicians with our healthcare under a more socialized system, when they clearly don't care now?
-
"FilmCritic...
by TheRealMoriarty Jun 30th, 2007
07:35:19 AM
... I'm sure they are better. But my question remains the same: if Michael Moore is making the right points, why does he have to resort to half-truths to make those points?"
His points are not half-truths. A half-truth is a part-lie. He edited a film. Get the fuck over that. What he showed was not staged or non-factual in the fucking least.
You lament that people spend half their reviews talking about Moore himself, and then spend half your review bashing the fact that he edited his documentary.
Finally, no, not all people in federalized health care systems are treated perfectly and instantly. But they are all treated, and by human doctors. EVERYONE in this fucking shitty backwards undemocratic country is now being FUCKED IN THE ASS by corporations, unless they're in the top 1% and are likely fuckers in their own right. That's our health care system, our political system, our educational system, our media. That's every system. You're right when you say Paddy Chayevsky is laughing from beyond. Don't undercut the correctness of your point by putting your blinders on, to say that "things aren't all good elsewhere." In this arena at least, in the healthcare hellhole, things pretty much ARE all bad here. And the way that it's structured to fuck us all is just plain motherfucking undemocratic. That was the point of Michael's movie.
Also read topaz4206's comment if you haven't yet. It's pretty damn smart. -
I live in Hungary and see first-hand the joys of government run health care--enormous tax burden, disinterested doctors who officially make less then cab drivers, filthy facilities, and months long waiting lists to get MRI's and surgery. And get this--when you go in to have a baby, you literally have to bring your OWN FUCKING TOILET PAPER and EATING UTINSILS! and nurses will treat you like shit unless you pay them under the table for "proper" service. Yeah--lets import THAT brilliance to the US. Ironically, there is a way to get better care in Hungary, and it involves either paying your state doctor on the side and then meeting clandestinely, or paying cash to doctors who work outside the system completely. FUCK socialized medicine, and FUCK anyone who thinks there is anything of value in having the governemnt run something so important. Wanna fix health care in the US? EASY. Get rid of ALL but catastrophic health care insurance, institute tort reform, and let people manage their own tax-free medical savings accounts. For the truly indigent, I've got no problem with a government-managed medicare system, even it it sadly means traditional shitty government service. But leave it for the truly indigent.
-
... I give a film a mixed review, and somehow I've become a Republican mouthpiece. Take a deep breath, go back, and read it again, gang. I think there is some valid and important material in the film. I said so. I think this is a conversation that we need to have. I said so. I'm just not completely comfortable with Moore as a documentarian, and I said so. Once again, I am reminded that to many of you, film criticism seems to only exist in absolutes. "SUCKED!" "BEST EVER!" Well, I don't think that way. I think Moore made a good movie with some flaws, and with a firmer hand, it could have been the powerhouse he intended. If you disagree... cool. But I don't see the need for personal attacks over it. Hyperdefensive much?
-
That is if you go in not liking Moore, you won't believe his message, and the opposite view for those who like him.I personally, don't like Moore for some of his blatant lies that he uses in his films to make them more dramatic. I would list them, but I'm lazy.And as far Mori's take on the film, I don't see how he comes off as pro-Republican. His view is pretty valid, Moore isn't one to completely trust, but his message should at least be heard, if only for a discussion on such matters to occur.
-
that he is a documentarian, Moriarty. He himself describes himself as an ACTIVIST and a FILMMAKER.
-
I think the main cause for the problems with health insurance affordabiity go back to most Americans getting their insurance through their employer or the government. As a result, the insurance industry does not have to compete for the policies of individual Americans. The auto insurance industry does have to compete and auto insurance is far more affordable as a result. The employer is going to look to insure its employees with the most affordable plan. As a result, each emplyee is essentially viewed as the same. The school district I previously worked for had our group rates shoot up because several of the older employees had major surgeries. So the rates of the younger employees in their 20s were the same as sombody over twice their age. This doesn't make any sense. If the employers would give their workers a voucher to pay for the insurance but allow the worker to go out and find the best plan for them it would add competition into the marketplace in a way that it doesn't exist now.
-
The fact that this is going to open up some type of debate is a good thing, since some people are oblivious to the problem (some, but I wouldn't say many).I've watched Moore's films with the knowledge that some of it is B.S. and some of it is true. As someone who has been corn holed by the medical system, I can say we do need to do something about it, and if this film will open up some debate, then I'm for that.That being said, I do hope that people will actually try and gain knowledge as to what the truth is and not accept Moore's take on it as the whole picture. I honestly think the U.S. (hell, the whole world for that matter) has serious issues that need to be dealt with, but I'm not sure what needs to be done to rectify the problems.The first step though is to talk about it and admit that there is a problem, and Social Security is one that maybe a more dire problem, say in like thirty years.
-
Maybe Moore should return that Oscar he won for Best Documentary if he isn't really a documentarian.
-
Some of the posts regarding socialized medicare and its destruction of the national economy are not true, i come from a country where its free to visit the doctor and hospital and getting treated(but we pay for the medecin, if cant effort there is guvormental support), not every country wants to copy the US medi-system or any other system for the matter of fact, no offence but your lobbisme and corruption is a warning for us all, your guvorment suck, so do ours but the big time way yours do;)
back to the point, socialized medicare can work, especially if one chooses to cut down on a overwhelming militarybudget.
Btw i wouldnt call Micheal Moore a Documentarist since he almost constructs his own truth but then again, that maybe be the only way to be heard.
Sorry of my pore english, have a nice day.
Herr Wronazky. -
Optimus: that's a very valid question, with no easy answer. one could assume that it's easier to find an idealistic politician than it is a corporate suit? maybe not. anyway, to avoid the inefficencies of the government while still getting free medical care, a possible solution could be to have the health service run by corporations that are both funded and supervised by the government. thus, you could have the best from both worlds. It may seem that's the way we are headed in Norway at least.
Anchorite: You are absolutely right a health reform would be a gigantic undertaking, though I doubt it would ruin your economy. Anyway, the sooner you do it, the less costly it would be. Furthermore, I think you are exaggerating the downsides of a health reform. Here in Norway the systems works very well (though not perfectly, I suppose that's not really possible), our economy is stable, our living standards are among the highest in the world (way higher than the US) and unemployment is so low we have to hire immigrant workers to take the crappy jobs the Norwegians won't take. And I don't have to worry about selling everything I own to pay for my medical bills.
Attila: no offense, but what you say in your post says loads more about the state of your country than it does about socialized medical care. -
Moore on a boat outside Gitmo with a bullhorn looks pretty fucking staged to me. Is he making a point (that detainees in Gitmo are getting better health care than many American citizens)? Absolutely. Is it a staged stunt designed to make the point? Absolutely.
-
... I didn't make in my review, but that I took away from my viewing of the film, is that the best thing we could do in looking at other health care systems around the world is steal the best parts of them and rebuild ours. I think there are many things we can learn from the French model or the English model or the Canadian model or even, yes, the Cuban model. But pretending that Cuban health care exists outside of the rest of Cuba's social problems is completely obtuse, and I think context matters. You really want to live with the other problems facing Cuba to get that sort of health care? I'm betting your answer is no.
-
Supermans, earlier in the talkback, went on an incoherent rant against Moore and socialized medicine, regurgitating what other people had said over and over, and then posted a link to "the lies and untruths" in Sicko...but it's a PARODY blog posting, making fun of people criticizing Moore's use of facts in documentaries. it even SAYS it's a parody before it.Supermans, perhaps you should ask your overpriced HMO for some more brain pills...
-
Public schools are run by the government. I think we will all agree that your public school system is a disaster, so fucked up that it may be beyond repair. Having seen that first hand, the idea of these same geniuses in the government running our health care system give me chills. In California the average teacher gets out of teaching after only 4 years on the job, this is due to all the common problems we know being a teacher has. In the next 10 years there will be a teacher shortage in California alone of tens of thousands of teachers. Which means that people even more unqualified will be teacher just to keep warm bodies in classrooms. My fear is that this is where our health care system could wind up, with a shortage of doctors (why would anybody incur $100,000 of college debt and take a job where the salary would suck?) and other qualified professionals. Do we need to find a way to get health coverage to the 50 million uninsured. Of course we do. I just think the government will fuck this up beyond fixing too.
-
I don't think we can rebuild our system. These people make so much money off of the sick that why would they want to change. Money and power corrupts most people and I think that is exactly what's going on in this situation. I mean people can't stop buying their meds, and they know that. And about cuba, they can't even fix Fidel why would we want to be like that?
-
Its impossible for a fuck-tard like Moore to make a balanced political movie as the guy obviously has very strong political views which he wants to share with people.
Theres fuck all wrong with that but don't expect any truth to come out of shit like this. I could go and make a film about how shit our health system is over here in england and I'm paying 11% of my wage towards its crippled uselessness. Someone else could do the opposite.
There will never be a balanced political argument portrayed in a film or TV programme. Take them for what they are, political propaganda. -
there was a man across the hall who had just had surgery for his cancer. I started to talk to him and he told me that the pills they were putting him on did not have a generic brand and were not covered by his insurance. For about 100 pills it was going to cost him about $1000 a month to SURVIVE. This is the problem. What do you do when you find out you need a medication to stay alive, but because of the insane price of said medicine, you will probably put your family in the poor house. You have to make a decision between your own life and your families well being. How is this just? No one should be forced to make that choice.
-
Your correct on Hungary--government graft, corruption, & waste all exist on a gigantic scale over here --and certainly more than contribute to the half-ass way this particular system works--but I've heard similar horror stories from colleagues in other european markets. BTW--I should clarify, I'm not actually Hungarian, just a US expat with Hungarian relatives, working here in Budapest now for 4+ years. The most positive experiences I've heard relayed about socialized medicine has been along the lines of "damning with faint praise", which for me is still unacceptable for something as important as health care.
I stand by the idea that the only thing worse than the current US system (of unaccountable insurance providers and doctors hounded into the ground by malpractice bottom feeding attorneys) is a system run by the government. ANY government. Put the dollars and responsibilities back into the hands of patients, and watch how much better the system would get.... -
don't you think it's worse that on a day to day basis we get the same distorted facts from the people who run the country?
-
I don't know why the US can't put together a kick ass national health care system where taxes pay for everyone's health care. Why is that so tough? Why can't preserving life be one of those things we pay taxes for?
Bottom line: how many people suffer and die because of waiting in a line for health care and how many suffer and die because they can't afford health care? do the math. pick the one where we suffer and die LESS. it's not hard to figure this one out.
It's utter BULLSHIT to argue about whether things are quite as good or quite as bad as Moore says because at the end of the day we ALL know that there is FAR more good than bad to switch to national health care.
Why is it that the focus is on the little shit that's wrong when the only thing peoople will get from this movie is that there's a BETTER way than we have now. Not perfect. But WAY the fuck better than people dieing because they don't make enough money to pay for health care.
I'd rather die waiting in line than after morgaging my house and then still not being able to afford care and having my family broke while I'm dead. Yeah, think that line arguement thru guys.
I personally think that Moriarty is technically correct what he fault's Moore in this film but what the real tragedy is is that people who disagree with him won't actually consider what he's saying they will just gravitate to the little shit he says wrong and use them to dismiss what he's really trying to say. It's standard political fucking bullshit. It's too bad too. But face it... Moore's purpose isn't to do anything but open up the possiblity of US having a better health care system. Mission accomplished. -
I don't think we can blame Moore because his films don't fit neatly into any of the Academy's film caregories.
-
Give me a break! NOBODY GIVES A SHIT ABOUT CHILDREN OR EDUCATION IN THIS COUNTRY and THAT is why the so many of the schools suck ass. And they don't all suck ass by the way. I lived in a town and the kids on one side had a shitty public school and the kids on the other had a great public school and the public schools imbetween varied from poor to good. And GUESS what the differences in the public schools were?
-
A big part of the reason public schools are fucked in this country is because they are underfunded by the government. Maybe if some of that money being wasted with asanine shit like vouchers it might be a little better.
I'm fucking ired of morons who think that if anything is actually regulated or funded by the government it will mean the whole fuckign country will slip into some totalitarian communist dictatorship. Get real. Capitalism doesn't work! -
... I think that valid point gets buried in the questionable technique. Like I said... a little more care with the film, and it could have been a knock-out. I just think he makes it easy to dismiss him, and that's a shame when you're talking about something this important.
-
"That's literally all that Moore said he tried to accomplish. He doesn't say "Here, doit like Canada." He's saying "Look at the way that this is a priority for the rest of the world, nations great and small. What the fuck are we doing?" If the movie accomplished that, how can you give it such a lukewarm review?"
Because he makes his point in a way that skews certain facts.
Michael Moore is a fucking asshole. Our system needs some serious reform, but it isn't fair for him to deliver that message with, you know, lies.
Dragging the problem out for everyone to see is a noble gesture, but he too often plays with more than just facts.
And he's fat.
Just saying. -
You have no idea what you are talking about. The French and British systems are miles ahead of us and there is no more waiting than there is in the US.
-
What liberals (me) need to understand, that with conservatives .. Michael Moore is the equivalent if we were to watch a film by lets say Ann Coulter. Regardless of the topic and the subjectivity, its still ANN COULTER. So since Michael Moore attacked the right and Bush so vehemently that no one from the right will listen to him and thats sorta Michael Moores fault. We gotta be understanding that they actually probably do care about health care but come on... if it was by Ann Coulter.. I would rather stab myself in the eye then watch it. So come on guys, both sides, put on your enemies sandals for a sec.....
-
Everyone needs to see 'Manufacturing Dissent." It's a documentary that was supposed to be pro-Michael Moore by pro-Michael Moore people but then Michael wouldnt even sit down to have an interview with them so they started to research his movies. And although its no secret that he stretches the truth in his movies, let's look at a little movie called ROGER & ME that put Moore on the map. ROGER SMITH GAVE MICHAEL MOORE THREE SEPERATE INTERVIEWS DURING THE TIME HE WAS MAKING THE MOVIE!!!! And for those of us that havent seen the movie, THE MOVIE IS ABOUT HOW ROGER SMITH WONT GIVE MICHAEL MOORE AN INTERVIEW!!!!! That is an absolute bonafide fact. Now the reason I bring this up is to show that Michael Moore doesn't care how he makes his points, he will do anything in his power, such as bold face lying, to prove them. Sure, go ahead and say "Well, regardless of how he manipulates things, he brings up important issues and gets people to talk about them, and that's good." Well if you nodded your head and said "yeah, that's what I think" when you read that last statement then fuck you. I don't need some fat dude to be lying to me, a grown person, so the country can start to talk about what he thinks is important. Whether you're liberal or conservative, it doesn't matter. This guy lies to us in his movies, and no one should give him a nickel.
-
Where's the skinny conservative making the movie about the shitty health care system in the US?
-
even though I know it's hard to argue with CAPITAL LETTERS, Moore already addressed that. he spoke with Smith one time, before he started making the movie. and it was not recorded. the filmmakers just believed the other people they spoke with, because they couldn't get an interview with Moore.and by the way, you win the prize as the 10 millionth idiot to make a fat joke about Moore because they can't make a cogent argument against him.I'll wait while you look up the word "cogent"...
-
"If it wasnt for michael moore....NO ONE would be talking about this. Everyone including the politicians would be so friggin afraid to say anything. Moore gets a pass in my book....because he is just balancing out the equation. anyway....its a free country."
-
society requires a smack on the back of the head for the whole / majority of society to recgonize and tackle a problem. Look at the Iraq War. It took years and tens of thousands dead for society to realize it's a mistake. I happen to like Moore's exaggerated takes on issues. He motivates people viscerally with his methods. If you'll notice, Fox does the same day in and day out. I think there is a place for Michael Moore, to counter the MSM daily brainwashing.
And let's face it, the Wingnuts will organize an attack on anything they deem contrary t their agenda. Witness AN INCONVENIENT TRUTH. Now THAT's a documentary whose style and substance you'd prefer Moore to embrace. But the Wingnuts still attacked it with falsehoods up the ass. -
Is right... Al's facts are pretty hard to dispute but hey, but there go the neocons attacking him anyway. As if its a sport or something, or it just MUST be done or something.
-
Is right... Al's facts are pretty hard to dispute but hey, but there go the neocons attacking him anyway. As if its a sport or something, or it just MUST be done or something.
-
...and compared to the American non-healthcare system, any system is going to seem like paradise which is exactly the tact he's taking. The film isn't a critique of other healthcare systems and it isn't meant to be. Brits complain about the NHS but usually in terms of "it's getting American"
-
I am trying to re-read my post and your response and see the connection you are drawing. It makes no sense. I never mentioned school vouchers or totalitarian regimes. I merely mentioned that our American government is generally incompetent. Look at FEMA, the Iraq war,etc. Our education system is ineptly run. Schools in this country are not underfunded. The truth is most school districts do a terrible job of spending the money they receive. The amount of money that gets wasted by schools is probably on par with the money other government agencies waste. For instance, the school I most recently taught at spent and upper 6 figure amount of money to put astro turf on the football field. You could double the money allocated for education in this country and these idiots would find other creative ways to waste it.
-
This system is broken, maybe..just maybe...theres another system that MIGHT work..discuss...
-
I've voted Republican in the past two major elections and even I left this movie angry over how the current HMO system was created under Nixon and has been propped up by the Republicans ever since. Some things should not be privatized and healthcare is one of them. Moore successfully paints a picture of a health care system corrupted by greed where CEO's and politicians win and the American people lose. It's really simple: Insurance companies are driven by profits and our medical costs are seen as losses to these CEO's. When medical reviewers inside of Insurance companies get paid bonuses based on the number of claims they successfully reject you can't but help to admit things have gone terribly wrong with our system. Every American needs to see this picture!
-
Moore addressed that? Yeah, he's a credible source when you're trying to discredit something he's done. Watch the movie. Many people vouge for the fact that Smith met with Moore atleast twice while making the movie. And even if he only got ONE (yeah, I like capital letters) interview with Smith BEFORE he made the movie. Okay, so Smith met with him. He did his part. So that gives Moore the right to make a whole movie about how Smith won't talk to him, when he already did? The guy did it because he was trying to make Smith out to be the corporate executive that doesnt give a fuck about the little guy, even though he met with him every time Moore asked him too. And even if you don't believe that story with SMith, what about Moore calling that bank three months in advance about his free gun so that it would be ready for him when it got there? That bank doesn't let just anybody go into their bank and walk aout with a free gun. You sign up for an account, you get a backround check, you get your gun mailed to you several months later. But in the Bowling For Columbine, Moore walks into the ban k and walks out with a gun because he asked the bank if he could do that. And that's ONE out of many LIES in his movies. I'm not pro-conservative, I'm pro-not being lied to. That's all. I'm curious to hear your retort, fat man.
-
Moore is arguably a liar, yes, but if you're going to call him either a fool or a liar based on his portrayal of Cuba in THIS documentary, shouldn't you know a few facts about the situation in Cuba first? You freely admit you don't. Or anywhere else for that matter. It's understandable that you smell bullshit, but don't point it out till you *see* it. Bad form. And in fact later you more or less imply Cuba's healthcare system is pretty good by your estimation, because you wonder whether or not its superior healthcare would be worth inheriting its problems. So which is it, is Cuba's healthcare superior in your estimation or isn't it? And why? If we're going to call people liars we should know in what sense they're lying, don't you agree?
-
you're very naive if you think minor things like that aren't present in every documentary you've ever seen. Moore is simply subject to more scrutiny because of how popular his films are. ALL documentaries are forced to cut corners like that, not just to help tell their story, but also for the sake of time, clarity, etc.and not for nothing, but Moore does talk to Smith in Roger and Me, and he talked to him before ever making the film, and he did receive letters from his office. but to think that he sat down for a full-on interview with the man, actually getting to confront him finally, then DIDN'T put it in the film, and that GM didn't release that to the public to try to discredit Moore...well sir, for lack of a better word, that's just dumb.
-
What's with all the poundage hate?! You know Shock, if your big problem is fat people lying to you, you live in a pretty bleak goddamn world. Just turn on the news.
-
It has further been claimed that Moore conducted an interview with Smith in the Waldorf Astoria hotel in New York in January 1988, which he did film, but which was also left out of the final cut.[2] This claim appears to be contradicted by Smith himself, who said in a 1990 interview with the LA Times that "I've never stayed at the Waldorf."[3]
-
Didn't say anything about being INTERVIEWED there. Anyway, shame on you for using the wikipedia as a source.
-
in an argument in a talkback on AICN, citing ANY source is a step up, even if it's wikipedia.and the allegation about the fictional interview implies that the reason the interview took place at the hotel was that Smith was staying there.pesky facts keep ruining everything, huh?
-
Any argument against a present government can be taken as socialist in nature, IF the interpreter looks hard enough into it. Moore's message in its essence boils down to not accepting the way things are, and passively swallowing what shit is given to us. Now, granted Moore himself seems to hold back facts and give half truths in order to effectively communicate that message to the audience, but so be it. The fact is that Moore doesn't make decisions which affect our lives. He is NOT choosing the path to which we will see our future. That is the Government's role. Therefore if his lies make us question our governments lies, then bring it on.
-
Liars, Liars, Liars! I love the illinformed LIARS here.
http://www.bicyclingcuba.com/bikecuba/education.htm
A true story: in 1960, less than a year after their victory, Castro's government decided to wipe out illiteracy. They recruited 120,000 volunteer teachers, most of them young high school students. Armed only with books and Coleman-style gas lanterns, the volunteers entered the most remote areas, teaching peasants of all ages to read. The grim part of the story was that there were still counterrevolutionaries in the hills -- and they received support from the CIA. They knew the literacy brigades were helping solidify Castro's support among the peasantry, so the young volunteers were terrorized and at least one was murdered. But the campaign succeeded anyway. Practically overnight, Cuba's literacy rate rose to 97%, and it's now a little higher than that. By the way, the average Cuban's knowledge of the U.S. and of world events is astonishing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/12/opinion/12kris.html?ex=1263272400&en=c7ea472ff9651976&ei=5090
Yes, Cuba's. Babies are less likely to survive in America, with a health care system that we think is the best in the world, than in impoverished and autocratic Cuba. According to the latest C.I.A. World Factbook, Cuba is one of 41 countries that have better infant mortality rates than the U.S.
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.latin-america/browse_thread/thread/842fed7f5af34114/95d7531f26f91697
[A Reuters article evaluates the health care system in Cuba and finds
that the developing country has twice as many doctors per capita than
the U.S., a fact which has allowed the country to offer free medical
care to many poor Venezuelans through the Barrio Adentro program.-VIO
See if people would READ some History about Batista and how bad it was and REALIZE those whiney Cubanos passing along anecdotes are BaTistas RICH partners in crime who were driven out then MAYBE there would be fewer LIES!
Better yet spend some time cruising Democratic Underground and read the REAL truth and FACTS about Cuba and Venezuela. Why there are even people who SPEND time in those countries posting.
-
Jun 30, 2007 9:03:46 PM CDT
Pompoulus,Fat people ‘live longer after heart attack’!
by evilwizardglick
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article1957540.ece
Good news for the seriously fat: if you survive your heart attack your prospects are excellent.
A study has thrown doubt on the idea that being fat is a delayed form of suicide. Obesity may increase the risks of a heart attack but it also increases the chances of long-term survival afterwards.
The reasons are not known, but obese and very obese patients who have been treated for a heart attack are less than half as likely to die in the next three years as people with a normal body mass index (BMI).
-
I shouldn't have mentioned that. I was feeling pretty lousy and it squirted out.
-
(Don't worry, that's a rhetorical question.) Mori put out a pretty fair and thoughtful review and I see a good number of you people ripping him a new for being a Young Republican for God and HMOs. Can you possibly entertain two opposing thoughts in your heads at the same time? This ability is one of the hallmarks of what it means to be human. Which of course begs the question...art thou human?
-
...the number of people here that seem to be defending profit over human life. Who the fuck is anybody to put a price on medical treatment? Medical treatment should be available to EVERYONE regardless of financial situation. Attack Moore all you want but a lot of you seem to be missing the point he's making - medical treatment shouldn't be denied to save someone's profits. Argue capitalism all you want but if you actually believe that then you're just a cock, plain and simple.
-
...if it wasn't for fat Mike Moore.
-
look at the Democratic Underground? You're serious? That's about the same as looking for some straight up facts on gun control at redstate.com. The problem with people who support national health care is the same thing wrong with most people in support of everything government run. They don't think straight because they're too focused on the issue at hand. Government will never be the answer. The same people who rant against government privacy intrusions because of the Patriot Act are the same people who want a government file of your medical history. Guys, there's a reason why other countries are experiencing brain drain with their best doctors. People go to med school and spend a hell of a lot of their money because they expect a profit. And rightfully deserve it for their hard work. Who the hell wants to do all of that to have their salaries massively slashed? The smartest will go into other fields. Everyone ignored the comment Castro made to the NYT about how even his doctors f'd up his surgery. I also find it interesting that many of the arguments above supporting NHC talk about the horrors of going through welfare, unemployment, or medicaid. You do realize those are government programs, right? Like how you want the entire system to be?
For a final say, look at the Canadian Supreme Court:
Commenting on the Canadian health-care system, Justice Deschamps of the Supreme Court of Canada said (in a case that split evenly on whether a prohibition on private health care violated the right to "life, liberty and security of the person" under the Canadian Constitution):
"Some patients die as a result of long waits for treatment in the public system when they could have gained prompt access to care in the private sector." (See Chaoulli v. Quebec (Attorney General), [2005] 1 S.C.R. 791 at paragraph 37)
Peace out. -
Jun 30, 2007 9:37:58 PM CDT
If I were a multi-millionaire healthcare industry exec
by bringingsexyback
I would totally oppose an NHS. But since I'm not, I support it.
-
This forum has lots of liberals posting for sure. Yes, I'm conservative of the Reagan type and if we did have the kind of healthcare Moore is imagining or Hillary Clinton, the quality of health care will decrease. It is as simple as that since I have not seen one Government agency ever manage health care in foriegn countries without the wealthy paying the big bucks in private hospitals where all the good Dr.'s go..The social divide that will occur will be even greater and those people like John Edwards and Hillary Clinton along with Michael Moore will never set foot in a public hospital for care.. Unless they want to be video-taped doing it for some photo-op.
-
did you notice my post above, about your link? worth a gander. not surprising a Reaganite can't quite figure much out on their own...
-
Why don't people want to be teachers? Because you do a lot of work for little money with little respect. You can hate on capitalism all you want. I'm not saying people don't matter. I'm saying that the only thing you are doing is replacing the market with the government. Is one really more ethical than the other? And putting words in people's mouths doesn't help. Nobody here is defending an executive lining their pockets. I am, however, defending corporations who use billions of those profits to go back into R&D. Which will save more lives in the future because of innovation in medical technology and drugs than we can imagine. What if we discover a cure for cancer, AIDS, a more effective treatment for heart disease in the next 10 years instead of 20 because we didn't switch to socialized medicine? How many more lives would that save?
-
I have nothing against corporations that spend money on R&D and come up with wonderful treatments for the various diseases people suffer from. I have a problem with insurance run medical aid. In the UK we have the NHS and the pharm-corps still get the money, the only difference is it's the gov/taxpayer that foots the bill. The problem I have is that insurance companies - whether car/home/health - will always try and screw people over, my point is I can't see how anyone can possibly defend them screwing over sick people.
I'm a little drunk at the moment...so maybe not at my most lucid...this is maybe something I should have saved until I'm more sober :) -
The best tip you can leave the hotel staff in Cuba is a bottle of aspirin or other over-the-counter medicine, toilet paper and other necessaries. They aren't allowed to buy them in the drug stores in town.
While the US boycotts Cuba, nobody else does, so there's no reason for them to live in such poverty.
If Michael Moore lived in Cuba and tried making one of his films, he would soon join the other journalists, writers, filmmakers and other outspoken critics in jail, dead, or 'disappeared'.
-
Still his best. You have no soul if you dislike that movie.
-
that people who are quick to dismiss Moore are really happy the way things are and feel no change is needed and everything is just dandy.
-
For lost.rules, Roger and Me sucks (see all of my posts).
BadMrWonka, I watch a shitload of documentaries, and if I ever THOUGHT that a documentarian was LYRING to me, and I did research and found out he WAS lying to me, I would say FUCK YOU, I dont have time for this. I dont have time to watch a movie when I know the director is going to LIE to me. Not just EXAGGERATE. That's different. The two examples I gave are LIES. If you dont buy the first one (Roger SMith actually giving Moore an interview) then the second one is sure a lie (where Moore manipulated the event in Bowling For Columbine when he signed up for a bank account and got a gun). That's not insignificant. That's him lying. He lied to prove his point. If you think that's "insignificant" then you, for lack of a better word sir, are dumb. -
um...first off, it's hardly a matter of "not buying" whether the hotel interview took place, considering Smith himself said he'd never been to that hotel and did not film an interview for the film.and as for the gun thing, honestly. I really don't think in the grand scheme of things, it's such a huge CAPITAL LETTERS PROBLEM as you make it out to be. it wasn't a major thing in the movie, just an intro, basically. and it was much more about the idea of giving out the gun with the bank account, than where and how he got it. just because normally they mail the gun to you, doesn't lessen the fact that they handed him a gun, IN the bank, lol.and honestly, things like this, where the reality of a situation is compressed, or manipulated, in the service of the point of the film, or for time or whatever...it happens ALL the time, believe me. I have worked on documentaries before, I have worked producing TV and news segments, and it's always done. granted, the majority of the time that I was a part of it, it was almost always done in service of brevity. lumping things together, implying things all happened at once, when really it was a few different days. combining interview segments from different days into one, etc.if for some reason it REALLY irks you, then so be it. it smacks of a preconcieved notion of Moore and/or an inherent disagreement with his politics, but whatever. it's your choice. the point I'm making, and it is simply the truth, is that Moore is NO MORE GUILTY of this than almost any documentarian. Errol Morris, whom I consider a god of documentary filmmaking, I'm sure does the same thing, if the need arises. you shoot it, then you take the footage you have and tell the story. if you have 400 hours of footage, and the movie is 2 hours long, do you honestly think there is no manipulation of small facts, massaging of dates and times, etc.? it's the truth, ruth.
-
No. it's not the truth.
At this point, I guess, we won't argue the merit of Michael Moore or Sicko or manipulative documentaries or whatever. In the specif part in Bowling for Columbine, his point is that he walks into a bank, signs up for a bank ACCOUNt, and then, as a PERK for signing up for his account, he gets a free GUN, at the bank desk, where there are VAULTS WITH LOTS OF MONEY IN THEM. But in reality, it doesn't happen like that. You go thru a backround check and get it several months from the time you sign up for the bank account. That is a very calculated part of Moore's film that is a LIE. it wasn't just a thing he put in to take up a minimal amount of time in the name of making an under two hour film. He could of made the point that you get a gun with a bank account and in his narration said "And after I signed up for a bank account, I got a gun three months later." That would have been fair. But he didnt do that. He did it his way to make a point. A manipulative point. I understand only putting the points in that fit your documentary. That makes sense to me. I UNDERSTAND that. But I guaranteee that Erol Morris would be very careful in all of those sorts of points and only put the truthful points in that help his cause. I too have worked on documentaries, and I have made documentaries, and if anyone I knew or worked with had that sort of work ethic, then I would call him or her a hack, which is what Michael Moore is. -
you're just regurgitating things you've heard, but you haven't investigated Moore's responses. I did, and found this:In March 2003, John Fund reported in a Wall Street Journal diary page that the bank employee who handled Moore's account, Jan Jacobson, claimed that Moore had arranged the transaction weeks in advance, and that customers have "a week to 10 days waiting period" before collecting their guns.[8]
Moore later responded to these criticisms, writing,"Nothing was done out of the ordinary other than to phone ahead and ask permission to let me bring a camera in to film me opening up my account." He also states that the background check took less than ten minutes and he was handed the rifle five minutes later. Moore posted a compilation of out-takes from the documentary to support his version of events. This video shows Jacobson explaining the process to Moore, including that the rifles are held in the bank's vault.[9] The footage in which an employee states that the guns are stored in the bank's vault appears in televised broadcasts of the film.so before you call someone a hack, you better make sure that the real "hack" isn't the person feeding you the false info...now, considering you've mentioned 2 specific points, and both of them are false accusations, are you at least willing to investigate more, the claims that you have so readily bought into about Moore? -
but you get the point.
-
How many screens did this open on?
-
I've been visiting this site since 1997, when apparently, some of you were in diapers. What once was a venue for film lovers, who could discuss and debate with intelligence and civility, has recently evolved into a junior-high level shriek-fest of political absolutes. Anonymity has provided some of you with the opportunity to behave like complete jackasses, Maybe it's indicative of your ages, or just a reflection of the political climate in general. Whatever the case, I find myself skipping any and all chat related to most of the articles - for about a year, now. I do jump in occasionally, and find that I wish I hadn't. Expressing opinions is wonderful, but ranting with a one-track mind is not. While I may not agree with DM all of the time, I do find his reviews and comments to be levelheaded, and well written (he IS a writer, after all). Times change, and AICN will never be what it once was. I guess I just keep hoping that somehow, possibly, maybe, this site won't continue its tailspin into complete discord and irrelevance.
-
...good luck having a baby in the UK. When the OBGYN tells you to bring your own cleaning supplies for the room you know you're in for some quality service. Unfortunatly for Moore he focuses on the positive (universal coverage) and does not address the negatives. And to those who are pissed becuase they think Moore is syaing our healthcare sucks: that's not waht he's saying. He says teh CARE is top-notch, but if you're not careful you'll never see it becuase your insurance plan is motivated by their oblication to shareholders to deny you coverage. How many times do you need to see yet another news report about some poor guy who had to sue to get the coverage he was owed? Or the HMO that declares that routine procedures are "experimental" before y'all understand that as long as profit is the moteve somebody's gonna pay.
-
I'd be very curious to see the outtakes of that day at the bank. Assuming it's true, then congradulations. I take back everything I've said and I sincerely regret spreading falsehoods about Moore's movies.
On a less important note, it's unfair however to say I'm just "regurgitating" what someone else has told me. No one here has actually hung out with Moore and watched him through the process of him making his movies. We're all giving commentary based on every piece of information we've gathered and collected and read about him ever, and compiling it into our opinion. Mannufacturing Dissent is not the only anti-Moore movie I've seen. I've read and watched pro and anti Moore movies and articles and I've seen both of the items I brought up several times. But again, thanks for the info. I'm gonna look it up right after I'm done talking here.
-
I'd be very curious to see the outtakes of that day at the bank. Assuming it's true, then congradulations. I take back everything I've said and I sincerely regret spreading falsehoods about Moore's movies.
On a less important note, it's unfair however to say I'm just "regurgitating" what someone else has told me. No one here has actually hung out with Moore and watched him through the process of him making his movies. We're all giving commentary based on every piece of information we've gathered and collected and read about him ever, and compiling it into our opinion. Mannufacturing Dissent is not the only anti-Moore movie I've seen. I've read and watched pro and anti Moore movies and articles and I've seen both of the items I brought up several times. But again, thanks for the info. I'm gonna look it up right after I'm done talking here.
-
This is Michael Moore's best film. It is riveting and moving. It accomplishes everything that it sets out to do and I encourage you to bring someone along who knows nothing about this issue (even though everyone in America has been affected by this issue).
On fairness: Why should Moore be fair to the people who have all the power, all the mouthpieces, all the money? Why should he be fair to corporations who write off sick people as costs to their bottom lines? Why should he be fair to a system that doesn't bleed or care but feeds off the blood of the masses until they turn into frigid corpses? He shouldn't. -
Yes he should
-
The National Health Service that MM fawns over so much has been in crisis ever since it was created. There is an inevitable conflict between a finite amount of money you can extract through taxation (and boy are we taxed) and the infinite demand for healthcare (especially as the population gets older.
This is resolved by simply not allowing many of the treatments and drugs that have been developed (mainly in America).
More worrying is the mentality that State provision inculcates. People do not feel that they have responsibility for their own heath because it is the State's responsibility to make them better.
And when the law was passed making it illegal not to ride a motorbike without a crash helmet some years ago, people who said "It's my life, and I choose not to" were told "No it's not your life - because if you're injured it's the NHS (ie. the State) that will have to pay to repair you".
This is how individual rights are destroyed - it's hard to imagine any activity that couldn't be said to have some involvement of the healthcare system ("political demonstrating is dangerous - you might get hit by a police baton - and then the NHS would have to repair you")... -
Michael Moore is a traitor who is as dangerous to the United States as Osama Bin Laden. Michael Moore has inflicted as much damage on this country as any of the 9/11 hijackers. It is shameful this site dignifies his American Hating Propaganda with bandwidth.
-
What?? Oh my stars and gardens?!
I... I had no idea?!
Thank you, uss cygnus
Thank You for the Truth!! -
Hatin the corrupt leadership currently holding power in your country isn't the same thing as hating the country, you fucking idiot. The Iraq war, pointless and without provocation, has done more to damage this country than any of Moore's movies. And I'm a conservative (a real one), you sick douche-bag. Mori, God bless for the review. It's like hanging a pinata around your neck. I see a review of a Moore movie here and I'm afraid to scroll down and see what kind of maniacal freaks it draws out of the woodwork.
-
Dissent makes you a patriot, not a traitor. Blind worship of government makes Baby Washington cry.
-
Based on your strong words-- accusing AICN essentially of treason-- I assume you won't be supporting the site with further patronage.
-
Poor Baby Washington...
-
I find it incredibly interesting that people on this forum and, unfortunately, Mori himself, are interjecting "Michael Moore fabricates! Lies! Makes $hit up!" and yet provide no examples of how THIS movie does so. Does Michael Moore paint a complete picture of Cuba? No, he doesn't. But then again this movie isn't about Cuba. It's about the failing American health care system and his personal experiences in another country. Have any of you read the articles Moore cites in his movie; articles that come from peer reviewed medical journals? I did because of his movie and what I read about the American system in relation to other Western countries with socialized health care sickened me. For the longest time people who have been advocating change in our health care have been run into the ground by a multi-million dollar campaign dedicated to protecting the corporate bottom line. We've been hearing "We're #1," "Best Health Care in the World," "Privatization - More Efficient and Better for America!" for the longest time without any dissenting echo that Moore would be foolish to present this view in his movie. We know what the corporate side already is, we're bombarded with it on a daily basis. And if this skirts us towards the uncertain waters of propaganda, well so be it. It's time this boat got rocked.
-
It's one thing to be "fair" and it's another thing to lie. I don't want Michael Moore to be fair, that is to present both sides of the issue. I want him to present his side, which is, I believe, the side of most of the American people. He should present this side with as much force as possible using the facts at hand to shape his argument, and from what I can tell, he pretty much has. He needn't argue both sides of the issue to be truthful. That would be disingenuous. This movie is of a class with the great American tradition of muckraking. And since so few people are seemingly capable of doing that nowadays, perhaps a little unfairness to the giant corporations and politicians is in order.
-
Jul 01, 2007 1:01:41 PM CDT
www. aint-it-liberals-are-socialist-pig-pinko-fucks.com
by warmfuzzyballs
I'm with you Cygnus. Especially on the "Michael Moore has inflicted as much damage on this country as any of the 9/11 hijackers" point.
-
All of you are traitors. I am a doctor and my wife needs a Bentley because her best friend just got one. So to hell with Michael Moore and his crazy ideas. I got to get paid.
-
That's pretty funny you put ".00" at the end of a trillion.
-
U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A. U.S.A.
-
I made the point that being "fair" and "lying" are two different things. And as far as your comparisons - do you understand under what criteria the WHO are looking at when they provide that ranking? You say that Old European countries don't have big cities? My I should say that Paris and London are simple little hamlets. And Rome, well you could just call that a township if you had to. Your size argument makes no sense since money also scales for the United States. We are far richer than many of the countries that are able to make socialized medicine work. The problem is that most of that wealth is concentrated in fewer hands than in these other countries. Ending Bush's tax cuts for the wealthy 1% would itself pay for universal health care. We can make socialized medicine work in this country. It will work one day. The day of corporate control is ending.
-
I have seen the Quebec court case brought up a number of times so I thought I would provide some context. The case specifically was around the right to create a private hospital to provide elective surgeries like hip replacements, knee replacements, etc. and to have private health insurance pay for it, which personally I have no problem with. It is not because a significant number of Canadians are dropping dead on waiting lists every year, but the court identified it as a potential issue. University of Manitoba health economist Robert Chernomas calls the scare stories about Canadians "dying" on waiting lists "absolute nonsense. There is nothing I've heard that indicates we don't deal with emergent cases very effectively. The media has participated directly in this hysteria. Where people are dying is in for-profit medicine and in places like the U.S." 18,000 Americans die every years because their wait times are "infinite" due to lack of medical insurance.
-
Coughlins Laws, just because you don't know of other big European cities besides those countries' capitals doesn't mean they don't exist. Your argument about eating better could be valid but is ill-informed: their governments actively promote preventative medicine through their social health care systems! French men and women are able to see nutritionists who advocate healthier diets because it is cheap for them to do so, because of socialized medicine. Governments in Europe actively curb junk food advertising to children and promote healthy-living programs through, you guessed it, their social health care systems. French people (now I know you didn't see the movie, or if you did, didn't pay attention to it) it is revealed by 'Sicko', drink more alcohol and smoke more and yet still have a better standard of living and live longer than we do! Londoners must put up with more pollution and adverse environmental conditions than the average Mid-Westener and yet still live longer and are, on scale, healthier. And for you to say that British people eat better than Americans...well I guess you've never had English "cuisine" before. But let's take your argument at face value. Let's say that all of our statistics are being dragged down by those "rotten" poor people in inner cities. How is this not an argument for socialized medicine? The corporate system has so ingloriously failed to meet their needs that they now drag down the progress of the nation as a whole? How is this not an argument for socialized medicine? Big problems call for big solutions. The United States destroyed Nazi Germany, Tojo Japan, and rebuilt Europe in the span of 10 years, while at the same time splitting the atom. The United States can do big solutions. And yes, every American will be called upon to pay for this solution. But you know what? It seems to me that I would rather pay money into a democratized process than into a corporate one who's only accountable to the bottom line. On this we will simply have to agree to disagree.
-
I believe most of the western industrialized nations are capitalist, certainly every country in the G8 is. Currently America has the largest economy in the world, but on a per capita basis American is #9 behind Luxembourg, Bermuda, Channel Islands, Norway, Switzerland, Ireland, Denmark and Iceland, according to the Economist World in Figures 2007. The Economist is also projecting that China will pass America in 2025 to become the largest economy in the world.
-
I believe in helping your fellow man, but I don't believe in the federal government forcing me to help my fellow man.
If you were hurt and stole $100 out of my wallet to pay for your bill, that would be stealing. If you were hurt and asked the goddamn federal government to take $100 out of my wallet to pay for it, that kind of sounds like stealing to me too. And in an entire other topic all together, you'd probably only get $40 of my $100 in the end anyways, because the federal government is the most inneficient infrastructure in the country. They can't even steal our money right. -
You should pay for my health care because when you are sick I will pay for yours. We have other institutions that work this way, because we have made the decision that it is necessary for the public good. I do not lament my tax dollars going to pay for the fire department just because my house has never burned down. Nor do I decry policemen their wages just because I've never been the victim of a crime. I work at a good job with a "good" health plan but I am ever conscious of the fact that a serious illness can take all of that away from me. The health care system in the United States does not work nearly as well as it should for the amount we are paying for it. When my father has to go to another country to stock up on insulin for his diabetes after retiring from a good, solidly middle class job he worked at for 40 years there is a crime going on here. There aren't just a "few" horror stories going in America, they are legion. To say there are no ghettos in Europe is ill-informed. France has a very high unemployment rate for young North African immigrants (remember the riots a year or so ago?) and yet they can provide universal health care. Canadian welfare roles are higher (per capita) than ours and yet they still provide universal health care. But I have a feeling none of this will register with you in the least and so I will break off this little dialogue and leave you with a recommendation. If you want a sober, non-political look at the health care system in the US read the book "Sick" by Johnathan Cohn http://tinyurl.com/2h2kfz And if that doesn't move your position one way or the other then we must just accept our positions as intractable and move on.
-
with a camera. Just grabbing quotes and statistics wherever possible to fuel a pre-determined solution to an argument.
-
By defending a sensible, cogent review with sensible, cogent replies, you merely end up encouraging these mouth-breathing fools. Just like anyone who dismisses a film or filmmaker out of hand without seeing the material for themselves, most of the talkbackers here know little of what they blow on and on about. At best, Talkbackers are a sign of the times; an indication of just how blindly polarized out nation has become. It's barely worth the effort to find the comparative few who can even put a sentence together, let alone argue a well-reasoned point. I'm not even quite sure why I still read this talkbacker flap, let alone post to it.
-
Two of the worlds top ten pharmaceutical companies are British based - AstraZenica & GlaxoSmithKline.
Lots of the main cancer & health research charities are British (Welcome Trust, Imperial cancer research etc).
British GPs (local family doctors) are now earning over GBP 100,000 per year on average & we don't pay to see them (apart from through our taxes).
The most we pay for any prescription drug is about £7.00 if you are in hospital you don't pay anything.
As a family of 2 adults and 2 kids we top up our NHS service cover with a "jump the waiting list" private scheme which gets private cover for some stuff which costs £45 per month in total for all of us (Tesco health care - good value!)
And finally we buried my 57 year old Aunty last Friday - she had had leukemia for seven years which was treated by the NHS with no cost or concern. She died of a lung infection as a result of her immune system being shot to pieces. She spent her last six weeks on a high dependancy ward in a huge major hospital with 24 hour nursing care from one nurse looking after only two other patients . She had a huge amount of nursing care and medical support, including visits from heads of department of the medical school attached to the university.
She was a widow and had a low paying job - total cost of all her her treatment and hospital stay to her and the rest of her family - nothing, nowt, bugger all.
On her last day alive the hospital were even trying to get her home so she could die in her own house - they arranged a hospital style bed, breathing cylinders, and drips to be delivered to her house and assembled. They had also arranged for nursing support at home. Unfortunately she died before this could happen.
Again total cost nothing.
I want a system that ensures everyone gets the health care system that we needs and for all of its faults the NHS generally does that.
-
if you have to steal to keep from dieing... you are a total and complete idiot if you don't. fuck all of the people who are going to be pissed that they lost $100 to someone trying not to fucking die.
-
yes, true, but 33% of that wealth is owned by 1% of the country. and half the country is poor as fucking shit.
-
let me be clear about that. IF I am going to die unless I steal from someone else... I'm not going to fucking die. believe that. life is more important than fucking material shit! i will rob your fucking ass blind to not die. i won't even steal a goddamn pencil from work. but if it's life or death. then believe me, that fucking pencil is coming with me. and if you don't like it... FUCK YOU ASSHOLE
-
Dude, you are so missing the point it's not even funny. If you were dying and I could prevent that by giving you $100, I would do it. But some people wouldn't, and we shouldn't have the federal government force them to save your life. I know life is more important than material shit, but some people don't think that, and they shouldnt be forced to think that.
-
rule of the fucking jungle is that you will fucking kill to live.
societies are supposed to be more advanced than simple jungle instict. we agree to behave according to rules so life isn't just about survival.
BUT... if society is getting in the way of life or death... then it's failing. That is what is wrong with the fucking dipshits who can't get social health care around their fucking brains. They can't see that the primary purpose of a society is to preserve the safety and wellbeing of it's people so they can pursue a happy life. it's not WRONG to come to the simple conclusion that if we pool our money together to pay for health care that it's better than going it alone... just like living together is better than going it alone in the fucking jungle.
pooled medical health care is the promise of insurance. BUT insurance only works if you are fucking healthy enough to afford it. and they get to make their own rules. nobody gets to vote about how insurance works(except the board who make money off of it and vote accordingly). and insurance gets to fucking tell people that the sicker they are... the LESS they get fucking covered? the whole fucking thing is fucked up the ass because people are getting rich off of insurance. and there's not a goddamn thing any of us can do about it. except of course... vote for socialised health care mother fuckers! -
people who think material shit is more important than saving the life of their neighbors... can go fuck themselves! they don't care about everyone else... what the fuck are they doing as apart of our fucking country?! they want the benifits but don't give a fuck about the society that provides them. too fucking bad for them.
I DON'T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANYONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO GIVE UP HIS WORTHLESS MATERIAL SHIT TO SAVE SOMEONE'S LIFE. It's not like it's asking anyone person to give up everything for everyone else. -
America is the richest country in the world, but its citizens are the 9th richest in the world, and China will soon pass America and become the richest country in the world. Stating opinion backed by facts (generally statistics) is the cornerstone of debate, and debate is the cornerstone of our western democracies. Saying things like "Country X is the greatest country in the world" or "Country X's health care is the envy of the world" is just empty rhetoric without facts to back it up. As Samuel Johnson said in 1775, "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel".
-
Sorry, but this comment: "...good luck having a baby in the UK. When the OBGYN tells you to bring your own cleaning supplies for the room you know you're in for some quality service." is a 100% bona fide total absolute lie. If anything even approaching this happened in the UK it would be over a tabloid cover before you could blink. I'll say it again: the notion that you are asked to being 'your own cleaning supplies' for the maternity room is CATEGORICALLY FALSE.
Jesus, you fucking people. My wife used the NHS maternity facilities when we had our daughter and some of the fucking crap you people are peddling and eating about it should make you all fucking ashamed of yourselves. -
couldn't sleep last night so I was channel surfing and caught Revenge of the Sith. isn't the statement "only the Sith deal in absolutes" an oxymoron? It's nothing to do with Sicko, just a wandering thought about the movie.
-
You made me lol
-
Watch Sicko. People who HAVE health insurance are getting screwed. Their claims are being denied because the carriers don't want to pay the bills. You slut.
-
in that if i walked in holding 2 severed fingers, i'd leave with BOTH reattatched, not having to choose which one to throw away. As for waiting lists, my Aunt was recently admitted to have her gallbladder removed, having waited only 2 weeks of an "up to 2 month wait". She will now get visits by a nurse in order to remove 30 staples and change dressings. Cost? Fuck all! How much would the local anasthetic cost in the US? The system aint perfect - too many management types - but it's far better than dealing with insurance companies who'd exploit every loophole available in order to avoid paying out. Oh, and the 'best in the world' mantra of some Americans is desperately sad, it stops them questioning why things are so wrong in their country......brainwashing of the masses.
-
shock corridor and I already went through this, and as hard as it is to believe on AICN, he admitted he might be wrong and said he would look into it further. read the posts above.but Shock, your subsequent comments about welfare (which sounds suspiciously [read: exactly] like comments Limbaugh used to make about welfare people stealing from the government and the taxpayers) kind of prove what I predicted earlier. you were predisposed to find flaws in Moore's filmmaking because you find flaws in his opinions. if someone is as liberal as can be, and agrees wholeheartedly with Moore's films, they're obviously not going to be looking for every little inconsistency, that they can then blow up into LIES and MANIPULATION, etc. etc. but on the other hand, if you are bothered by Moore (like the brain donor above claiming he's as detrimental as the suicide bombers on 9/11...which I'd love to hear him say to the widow of a firefighter lost that day), then you're going to be more ready to believe it when someone tells you HE'S LYING!!unfortunately, if Moore ever really did any of that, he could be sued for libel, discredited, publicly blah blah blah...but all we have is a documentary made by a couple people that were bitter they couldn't get a one-on-one interview with Moore? that, and a bunch of right wing propogandists, that can't go 2 seconds without mentioning his weight, and think that any type of dissent in the political spectrum means the person has to be a lying commie bastard, and they treat him thusly.it's a dangerous thing, when a country so in love with our freedom, we're trying to beat it into other country's, can't seem to handle a guy making movies, quesitoning how our country could be better.man, he's just like the 9/11 bombers!
-
...and yes, "massive clusterfuck" should be the official term used when talking about this problem. But AICN is the LAST place I want to discuss the health care nightmare. Hilarious indeed that clown who called you a Republican. Later.
-
I stand by what I said about welfare (what I really ment was healthcare, but welfare too). And I don't listen to talk radio and I've never heard anything Rush Limbaugh as ever said, which you'll just have to believe me. And antonphd, our conversation is over. You've totally missed the point on everything I've said pretty much and you sound like a pissed off thirteen year old.
-
yeah, nice try shuffling out of the conversation.
your point is that it shouldn't be the responsibility of everyone to make sure everyone else gets health care.
and I'm a 33. "welfare is stealing" is the 13 year old "that's what my dad says" statement here. my "fuck assholes who want to take but not give back to their society" statement comes from maturity. -
hey, at least there's debate. it's gotta happen somewhere. here. people actually comes from opposing sides and some arguments actually happen. as opposed to websites where nothing but pre-packaged bullshit is yelled back and forth.
would be funny to watch a Lost vs Heroes debate in congress. lol -
Debate that!
-
HMO's are to HD-DVD what Universal Health care is to Blu Ray. Discuss.
-
http://tinyurl.com/2q3uve
Sorry Drew, but if you're going to cite "half-truths" you need to back that statement up with the truth and some evidence. Just saying "He's lying" isn't enough of a critique. You need proof that he is lying, or half-lying, for your review to be taken seriously.
Is he heavy-handed? Oh, yes. But this is Michael Moore, and you have to expect that. When you go into a Paul Verhoeven flick, you expect him to be over-the-top satirical, a little cheeseball, and ultra-violent; Complaining that a Paul Verhoeven flick is snarky, cheeseball, and violent is not a critique, because THAT is what he does. Same with any director. If you review Transformers and say it's "loud and nonsensical" you're not really reviewing the movie- You're reviewing the director, who is known for being loud and nonsensical and still makes entertaining movies out of that formula.
So the question is, from a documentary filmmaker's point of view, did Michael Moore accomplish what he set out to do? Did he make a documentary that was compelling, influential, and memorable? Did he give the facts he wanted to give? Did he bring the topic into the American dialogue?
I think the answer is "yes" on all points, with the exception that-- while factual and accurate-- Moore omits facts that might take away from the point he's trying to make. Is that a cardinal sin of the documentary as a format? I think so, but it's something every documentary filmmaker does.
The job of a documentary film is to influence viewers and teach them something they didn't know. Documentary films are best when they're two parts education and one part propaganda. Moore does this masterfully.
When judged on it's own merits as a documentary, it's a well-made, compelling film with largely accurate data presented in an entertaining way. He did his job, and he will rake in the box-office cash once again because his viewpoint, and this topic, are on the minds of Americans this year and he presents one side of the argument in a style that makes us see his point.
I doubt anything from the AMA or opposition to universal health care would be nearly as entertaining, compelling, or fun-- And yet I *know* it would be just as much propaganda, and perhaps moreso than Moore's effort.
Fuck it, man! After as long as I've been here at AICN Talkbacks, I should be on your payroll. You know it's true; Whether I was Sherlock_Holmes (banned and banned again whenever I'd oppose Moriarty's viewpoint) or ZeroCorpse, I have put in better reviews in the Talkbacks (half of them deleted when I was banned) than half of you guys have put in the main article!
It's the truth. Even if I've slacked off over the past few years, it's only because you fuckers won't man up, offer me a job, and pay me like you pay that fourteen-year-old girl Herc, or the oft-self-aggrandizing Mori.
You hear me Harry? I want res-tit-too-shun! I want some respect. I want that sweet pay-per-talkback-post deal!
-
Sorry... That one got away from me.
I'm OK now. Mori-- sorry about that "self-aggrandizing" comment. Herc-- Uh, nevermind. I meant that one. -
See, I don't even know what point you just made. You basically said that my previous point was what 13 year olds say their dad says and trhat your profanity ridden tirade that's void of all logic is adult. I'm thoroughly confused. And on top of that, you didn't even get my point right. It's that, to me, it's unConstitutional (the Constitution, by the way, is a document that our country is supposed to be governed under) to force people to pay for someone else's well being. I know it's the nice thing to do and if you have money you have the responsibity to help people less fortunate, but that's MY OPINION and the Constitution says that I cant force anyone to do what my opinion is. Socialized medicine is stealing.
-
disregard grammar in last post
-
Paying for socialized medicine is no more stealing than paying for socialized fire fighting or socialized policing. Should a citizen of the U.S. have to subsidize someone else's criminal investigation of a break and enter? Should a citizen of the U.S. have to subsidize some else's attempt to put out a fire in their home? To have their children rescued from a burning building or a kidnapper or home invasion? Paying for a service that is for the common good of all is not stealing. Making money by taking payment for a service and then not delivering on that service when it is needed is.
-
The 16th amendment established Congress's right to impose a Federal income tax, passed by Congress on July 2, 1909, and ratified February 3, 1913. It is certainly constitutional to tax the citizens of the U.S. for the common good.
-
Is only saying who "deals" with absolutes. Jedi can name absolutes. Only Sith "deal" with them. By that, it means that they sit down at a card table and physically "deal" to them. No inconsistency. Anyway, the real point is that Obi-wan was trying to drive home to Anakin the narrowing of his focus, trying to force him to adopt another point of view, tell him that he was not wanting to be an enemy. It failed, and now the masses are left to whine over his philosophically inconsistent statement made in a moment of intense emotion. Tragic, like the movie.
-
The Antonphd posting here does not appear to be the same one I have seen post in earlier Sicko talkbacks.
-
is and has been one of the rational ones.
-
i saw the movie and you are absolutely right. the first half had me, the second half almost lost me. i'm british and my dad has had treatment for a serious illness and almost died three times through incompetence and/ or doctors trying to shave budget costs and so to have Moore candidly present the pros of a health care system over health insurance, for example, is kind of short sighted. that said, michael moore definitely has a point, and i do think that this film is necessary, despite it's overly sentimental last half, but your review is absolutely spot on, even so far as tv nation, which i loved, especially the theme tune and the episode where moore blasted musak out to the guy who makes that scummy elivator music!
-
Insightful and articulate thoughts on Moore and on documentaries in general. Made for a nice read.
-
you should all see this interview with a woman that was in Sicko, if you want to debate this stuff...
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2007/07/01/gupta.sicko.911.worker.cnn -
-- are NOT to be used in any point or counterpoint in a political debate. I don't care WHERE we are. STOP IT!
-
I just finished watching 'Sicko' about ten minutes ago so i can give you my honest review/opinion on this having been in both the British and American healthcare systems (i lived in LA for a while during the 1990s as part of a student exchange programme at CalState Uni). This film brought home to me what i already knew - the poor American public has been BRAINWASHED by five decades of Keynesian economics where as a result the richest don't have to subsidise the poor because they pay so little tax. MORIARTY - you are a typical example of the 'blinkered Yank' who espouses the values of common good whilst believing the media hype surrounding countries like Cuba or Venezuela and it's leaders. I suggest you follow up this movie with the BBC documentary 'The Revolution Will Not Be Televised' - showing the attempted US coup of Hugo Chavez. FEAR of change to a fairer society surrounds you at every turn - this is because the RICH HAVE SO MUCH TO LOSE AND THE POOR SO MUCH TO GAIN. 'Sicko' clearly demonstrated that sometimes it doesn't matter how rich you are (as in the case of the cancer-striken newspaper editor and her heart attack prone husband), it is impossible to get cover if you have an ongoing history of long-term illness. Pity the child born with Cerebral Palsy or one of the countless number of diseases on the HMO list. I could go on and on about the number of FREE (at the point of delivery) operations that i have had under the NHS and the amazing doctors and nurses that cared for me whilst i was there. Any arguments Moriarty may have in favour of the US system spectacularly collapse the moment that a child dies unnecessarily as in the case of the coloured child, Michelle (i remember her name from the front of the book and am now struggling to contain my tears and anger at the injustice). Many of those who deny treatment, as in this case, INCLUDING THE DOCTORS, should be tried for MURDER. As the credits rolled i recall thinking that this movie needs and appendage to it's title - SICKO: THE SHAME OF A NATION. Hopefully, Barak Obama, when he finally comes to power, will have the BALLS to tackle your MASSIVE (and if 50 million people isn't MASSIVE then i don't know what is - they were right about Elvis weren't they?) problem. MORIARTY - MICHAEL MOORE HAS MORE GOODNESS IN HIS LITTLE PINKY THAN YOU HAVE IN YOUR ENTIRE BODY AND BLESS HIM FOR MAKING THIS MOVIE. NOW HAVE THE GUTS TO ADMIT THAT YOU ARE, FOR ONCE, COMPLETELY WRONG..! p.s. The star of the movie? - TONY BENN - THE GREATEST POLITICIAN WHO EVER LIVED. SOCIALISM is NOT a dirty word - you Americans just have a lot of catching up to do in terms of 'free-thinking' instead of believing in 'The Bible'/God/Baby Jesus' and all that other shit that is holding you back from being a truly democratic, intelligent and reasoned society. I don't hate America - it could be the greatest country on the planet (that honour currently belongs to UK or France) - like i said, i pity you.
-
...i feel a need to further explain why i made this statement. Whilst our healthcare may not match up to France in every aspect, like i said, it is free at the point of delivery and NOONE is turned away. There are other aspects that make us 'Great'. Firstly, there is the question of TOLERANCE. We are an equal society in many ways. I am an atheist but that doesn't mean i want to kill or threaten those who do not think the same way i do as is seen in many countries in relation to immigration, abortion, religion - there are laws in place here to stop small-minded people behaving in such a manner. This is because, generally, we are a secular society - one that separates church and state - and believes that all faiths (except Scientology of course lol) should have the right to practice it's beliefs as long as they don't impede the will of the individual and the common good of all. It took many centuries for us to get here and, unlike the USSR, we arrived at a mutual concensus through successive generations learning, first hand, what is right and what is wrong in this world. Perhaps (and Moore made a strong point here) if America had been the victim of wave after wave of bombings during WWII you might have seen the poor demanding more solidarity. Remember, Churchill was ousted by Attlee within six months of the end of European hostilities simply because the people of Britain DEMANDED change and Churchill represented a world fuelled by war and the old dogma. Today in the UK, our children can look forward to a decent education (free up to the age of 18), decent housing (again free if you cannot afford it) and a standard of living second to none within a society that encourages the best in every human being with opportunities for all. Now, if we could just dispose of the Monarchy...
-
sorry man, I'm british and you've just made me ashamed. fact of the day- A 16 year old single mother takes home about £400 per week in benefits- Most jobs pay about £300.
-
Murdoch-owned New York Post gave it a bad review. Big surprise there, huh?Coughlin, glad to see you saw the point. I have health insurance, I pay my own premiums every single month, so I fulfill the obligations of our agreement monthly. It scares the shit out of me to think they would not do their part when the time needs it and they fuck me over. So yes, even for people who have insurance, there is something to address. The problem is that corporations can afford to be corrupt. The common person can't afford to battle that corruption. We need legislation that safeguards covered patients from illegitimate denial of claims that have ruined so many lives and families. The Post reviewer also brought up Moore's 'methods' as a way to discredit him. If you watch Sicko, you'd be hard-pressed to care much about his methods, because the facts are so overwhelmingly real and frightening.
-
The problem with the logic of "I don't want to pay for someone else's medical bills and preventative care" is that everyone, eventually, will get sick in some way. While there are things you can do to lessen your chance to get diseases like cancer, fundamentally getting cancer is random and if you live long enough you will get it. Should a child who gets leukemia be punished because their parents medical coverage will only pay for one years treatment? Because society as a whole does not want to chip in to help everyone else? Should a child be force to loose a parent because the parent got cancer and could not afford the treatment? Should the 9/11 EMS worker who volunteered to help at ground zero not have access to specialists because she cannot afford insurance and her disability claim prevents her from getting government payed health care? It appears that in her case no good deed goes unpunished.
-
Yes, i forgot to mention the small minority of intolerable idiots of which you clearly subscribe to. I will take each of your points in turn without trying to point out the inherently bad spelling forged in stone forever within these very pages('illigal imagrants' - lol - back to school for you laddy). Firstly, mode_7, the underclass, which you are quite clearly a part of, will exist in perpetuum whilst the monarchy continues to be tolerated and two-tier systems of health/education co-exist. I live on a once run-down council estate in South Yorkshire and i can state that the welfare state is NOT a career plan for the girls who do have offspring at such a young age. Have you ever thought that might be down to bad-parenting coupled with the constant media pressure to be seen as 'sexy'..? TV is awash with such images and representations and their bombardment from birth could be taken as an indicator of a troubled/sick society. I think that path lies in the hands of the educators/parents. Let me add to that the number of males i know who have casual sex with a girl and think nothing of the consequences - even if it brings forth life. Whilst we're on this subject i will give you the weekly total for a 16 yr-old single mother with one child is £83.10 rising to £106.60 at 18 (so there go both your phony facts) - see this for more info - http://www.jobcentreplus.gov.uk/JCP/Customers/WorkingAgeBenefits/Incomesupport/index.html . Of course they also get child benefit but so does everyone, rich or poor. There is also the point that the 'three fathers' should also have to make a 'reasonable contribution' (collected by the Child Support Agency). Secondly, i'll take your point about 'illegal immigrants' and just prick that little bubble. In 2005-6 the migrants contributed 10.6% of the GDP - that's £60 BILLION to you and me..! Without them this country would fall to it's knees. You want to stack those shelves, clean up that blood, polish those public lavatories..? Be my guest. Next time you take a walk through Tescos count the number of foreign accents and you might realise that they do all the shitty jobs that your average working-class white UK male wouldn't touch with a bargepole. I have been all over the world (i kid you not - i was the first western musician to headline a festival - in Sverdlovsk - in the USSR before communism crumbled) and i can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that it is THE most wonderful place to live. It is fools making comments laced with ignorance and without basis in fact that make me not ashamed but embarrassed, sometimes, to be called British. Your racism/xenophobia needs to be tackled and i've been doing a pretty good job of that since i was sixteen (when i was eighteen i was part of the 'Red Wedge' tour and went on to headline the 'National Anti-Apartheid Conference ' at which i met the great Oliver Tambo, acting-leader of the ANC). Tony Benn has been an acquaintance of mine for over twenty years and to know that his words will echo in movie theatres around the world fills me with joy and hope. I only wish that the Americans who watch this film realise the need for a fiscal revolution within their own country i.e.a higher rate of taxation that finally begins to fund a society where education and health is based on need not choice. F*ck choice when so many go without. BTW the next time you think of taking on an intellectual giant such as myself - think about what you're going to write otherwise i may have to give y'all a big pointy hat with a 'capital D' on it.
-
I don't mean to return to this, but I had a feeling that some bullshit citation from the job centre was coming. I am originally from a currently underwater bit of south yorkshire and know of many young women that do treat motherhood as a career path. The £400 per week figure is a total of all benefits, tax credits etc. The figure is not mine (obviously) but came from the Daily Telegraph a few weeks ago. It is actually more than a married couple with one working parent take home (kids or not). To propogate some socialist agenda whilst denying the actual facts of current life in the UK is laughable- especially when you blame these ills of society upon (surprise surprise for a socialist) the media. just to correct a couple of asinine and simplistic "facts": 1) "which you are quite clearly a part of,"- possibly the most repellently elitist comment I have seen in a while- bad spelling/grammar is de rigeur for a talkback. You should be ashamed of yourself especially as you display an inability to use capital letters yourself."will exist in perpetuum whilst the monarchy continues to be tolerated"- What has the monarchy got to do with this? nothing- that is a pathetic attempt to sidetrack debate. "two-tier systems of health/education co-exist"- why are there 2 tier systems? because of the vandalism done to education by the comprehensive system and the inability to recognise that children develop at different speeds and therefore need to be taught at different speeds. Socialism is not the answer. Neither is outright selfish is as selfish does capitalism (or we'll end up like America), but extremism of your sort does not help. Before you call me a tory- I'm not I hate all of them equally, and I am, politically, somewhere in the middle. I also fail to understand why you think that a debate on asylum/immigration is racist. It isn't.
-
I would rather do all those jobs you mention, and have done equally shitty jobs, rather than take benefits. Thanks.
-
Right, lets cool down a little, take a breath. I agree there are some 'careerists' who purposely seek to exploit the system - it's the same the world over (but to me this was also a 'pathetic attempt to sidetrack the debate' from the health service into something all-encompassing because you couldn't back up your facts). Your first remarks seemed a little crass and unexplained but now you actually give yourself some background to your reasoning (not that you have to explain yourselves to anyone) i can sympathise - slightly. Mode - i used to live in Bolton (Lancs) after i finished at Salford Uni in '92. It was a generally racist place then and i presume it still is (as are Blackburn and Burnley). I'm not saying you, personally, are a racist but i used to hear that 'some of my best mates are black and asian' appendage on a regular basis. Still doesn't excuse your original 'channel tunnel' mutterings - same old same old. May i remind you that we are part of an extremely large European Community now that we have 27 countries and they have the right to travel and work here in the same way that you have to their countries. Like it or not, that's the way it is. You can always vote BNP or Kilroy-Silk at the next election if you want out. As for 'illegal-immigrants' - well, the majority are reckoned to come from China or the African continent and as far as i am aware very few have settled in Bolton (the majority seek to stay in the Capital according to reports from charitable organisations such as Shelter). As for a 'free ride' - i think you might find that they gave everything they had to come here - the majority don't 'make it'; many die. In my point referring to Tescos i think you will find that i was talking about 'migrant', not immigrant, workers - i know how to differentiate. Still, on a personal level, i don't see how this would hurt you, only help. Without this workforce the NHS would grind to a halt overnight. And i think you will find that 'high racial tension' comes from 'racists' - certainly not from me. I agree with you that a debate on immigration (having one on asylum is stupid and pointless unless you're a heartless bar-steward) isn't racist - but the tone of the base comments certainly was. LP - I actually HATE/DESPISE the monarchy and everything they stand for - it's the root of the class divide. Why the residents of Catcliffe didn't overpower the security and hijack Prince Charles the other day is beyond my reckoning. I think we might have got the recompense this area deserves slightly faster (bearing in mind that on the same day the monarchy had the CHEEK to demand money from the public coffers to renovate Buckingham frickin Palace!). And don't give me the old argument about '...but they bring so much tourism into this country etc etc' - it was bull then and it's bull now. If tourists could get to see the WHOLE of Buckingham Palace and ALL of Her Majesty's treasures the tourism industry would double. Why don't they sell off the Crown f*cking Jewels to pay for a few thousand dialysis machines..? BTW - the 'Daily Telegraph' article you talk of was shown to be fabricated for the stimulation of it's hardcore readers and, as i stated before, without any basis in fact. The 'job-centre plus' page i gave you, on the other hand, was hard fact and not 'some bullshit citation' - there is a difference! What the f*ck are you doing buying the Daily Telegraph when you live in S.Yorks anyway..? Freaky. Personally, i take 'The Times' lol. I don't buy the 'vandalism done to education by the comprehensive system' remark either - i'm a comprehensive lad and i have two BAs and an MA. This year my daughter, i'm glad to say, will attend the same comp i went to (last years Ofstead report puts it right at the top of the local tables but someway behind the private schools) but then again i really don't have any choice. Yes, we should always look to raise standards and that should mean that teachers taught within the state system should not be allowed to 'go private' - same with dentists, doctors et al. BTW my daughter just got back in from school with 5-5-5 in her SATs (top of her class). In my opinion Socialism has always been the answer but then again i'm probably a little older than you (38) and remember when that word actually meant something pretty special. I was raised in a Communist Party/'Morning Star reading' family and was often accused of 'going soft' lol - but I remember vividly being stopped and turned back by the police just for trying to travel from one town to the next (Mexborough into Denaby) during the miner's strike and that has left a deep scar on me that will not go away. We are slaves to the South and don't forget it. I did play on the 'Rock Against The Rich' tour with Joe Strummer back in '88 but i don't consider myself an extremist any more - just left of centre and extremely reasoned. And it's my job to make sure that my beloved Labour Party doesn't become any more Tory-inclined than it has been under Blair.
LP - if don't like 'politics' as it currently stands then get involved and change the system - don't just stand 'somewhere in the middle'. I admire a right-winger who stands his ground far more than some wishy-washy procrastinator who goes with the tide (see David Cameron) - they always end up drowning in their own rhetoric. You seem like you have some pretty strong views so why not stand as a councillor at the next local elections..? My (ex-)friend just stood for the BNP at the last elections and did so well that he kept his deposit. I won't talk to him anymore because i don't associate with that scum but at least i know where i stand whereas before he never nailed his true colours to the mast. Lastly, i take back the 'spelling' comment - it was a low blow from me and not worthy of the talkbacks. When are they going to introduce 'previewing' and a 'larger box' in which to type.? I'll message Drew thru MySpace and tell them to get to work on it. I, for some reason, have never been able to use paragraphs - don't know if it's the fault of the PC or me..? Works on every other forum though. Weird. Anyway, it's been nice chatting with y'all and, maybe, next time, we can discuss the 'Evil Dead Trilogy' or something slightly more light hearted lol. It's just nice to know that other Northern lads come here to vent spleen. Hope you weren't flooded too badly - my drummer lives on Albion Rd in Rotherham and they had no electric for four days last week. He was beginning to smell lol. Now, lets shake hands ;-) -
...have you actually watched Sicko yet..? It made me feel proud of the NHS doctors who said that they would never want to work in the US system. The NHS might have it's flaws (usually when sections are privatised - usually the cleaning and that's why we have the MRSA bug) but i feel lucky to be able to go straight into hospital when the need arises. I severed my achilles tendon two years ago and spent over a week in Doncaster Royal - the docs and nurses were brill and the out-patient clinic just as efficient... three months later i was back on my feet. In the US that would have cost well over $100,000.
-
...is wind up the AICN staff and US contributors, like Moriarty, that exist in a state of denial... I've been coming here and contributing since i opened an internet account (when i was at Uni in LA back in '96)... that entitles me, even more so than Mori i believe, to do the winding up lol. I wasn't trying to be condescending, i just got on my high horse. You of all people (living in Bolton) must know what it's like to be surrounded by racists - it's the same here in Yorkshire. Yet those same blokes will then go into the local asian-owned shops and chat with the proprietor and be completely two-faced. I see it every day. I went to drama school and do actually have many lifelong asian and black friends. The kid i talked about who recently stood as a BNP candidate tried to 'recruit' me with a hugely pathetic diatribe in front of his like-minded friends thinking that i would buckle under peer-pressure. Unfortunately, i fired back at him and his pitbull-midget friends completely unafraid as i am of those idiots - my 6'5" frame might have something to do with their not attempting to kick-the-shit out of me but i am renound locally for my intelligence , reason and fairness. When i speak, people listen. There is a great deal of frustration at 'the state of the nation' but i think their anger is infantile and misdirected. I thought Sicko was a wonderful, maddening and timely work that will, hopefully, lead to Hilary Clinton being dismissed as the Democratic candidate - she has waaaay too much baggage to run. Obama, conversely, is a ray of hope and i'd bet my last dollar that bloke will be Pres come Nov 3nd '08. His intellect is already beginning to win through.
Readers Talkback
User Login
Top Talkbacks
- Whitney Houston 1963 - 2012 -- 325 total posts 322 posts
- New JUDGE DREDD post production footage pops up -- 106 total posts 106 posts
- HANNA's Saoirse Ronan to boss around seven little people -- 63 total posts 60 posts
- Does ‘SNL’ Rhyme With ‘Deschanel’?? Learn Which SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE Vet Hosts After Sexy Zooey!! -- 74 total posts 58 posts
- There's a STAR TREK video game that is going to lead into JJ's STAR TREK 2 apparently... -- 159 total posts 51 posts
- If the Behind the Scenes Pics of the Day drops her pen, pick it up, but don’t look at her legs or else it will be on your record. -- 47 total posts 41 posts
- AVENGERS enemy revealed as pink boardgame pieces... You might suffer some form of elation... SPOILERS!!! -- 161 total posts 34 posts
- To Commemorate The 3D Release Of STAR WARS EPISODE I: THE PHANTOM MENACE, George Lucas Wants You To Know...Greedo Shoots First!! -- 488 total posts 33 posts
- Friday Brings SWEEPS DAY NINE!! Gab Here About Tonight’s FRINGE!! Plus Einstein on TIM, Wiig On PORTLANDIA, MAHER, CLONE, GIFTED, GRIMM, SPARTACUS, SUPERNATURAL, GOLD RUSH And More!! -- 121 total posts 23 posts
- Here's The Red Band Trailer For Drafthouse Films' THE FP! -- 70 total posts 20 posts