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BoboVision Checks In With Michael Moore’s SICKO!
Hey, everyone. ”Moriarty” here.
I’m working on my own review of this one, having finally had a chance to see it. I think it’s going to cause some pretty strong reactions, and I think it’s very much of a piece with Moore’s work. I think it’s closer to his earlier work like TV NATION than it is to his last few films, and I’ll leave it to you to decide if that’s a good or a bad thing.
For now, here’s BoboVision with his take on it. He’s been a steady contributor recently, and this is another solid review from him:
Hey Moriarty,
Bobo_Vision here. Well, this weekend Michael Moore's documentary about the American health care system, "Sicko", premiered a week early at the Lincoln Theater in Manhattan, and your man Bobo_Vision was there to check it out. (Seriously, when are you guys gonna start payin' me?) I've been interested in seeing this for a while because I'm going into the health-care profession, and being a Canadian, born and raised, I've seen the vast differences between the Canadian and American health care system first-hand after living in New York for the past two years.
As a Canadian, I tend to stand to the left of the political spectrum in my beliefs, but even I have cringed at times during some of Michael Moore's heavy-handed techniques in some previous films to get his views across. He doesn't hold back in this film and his use of humour and emotion to make statements is employed once again, but its much more even-handed, and he's even critical of Hillary Clinton's lack of follow through towards her pursuit of universal health care coverage. This is not a film about politics; its a film about people. Its a return of the Michael Moore of old who champions the little guy against powerful self-interested corporations and goverment, only in this case the little guy is most of America. This is something we have yet to see in America on a grand scale such as this, and this is what Michael Moore does best.
We are introduced to many Americans who suddenly, without notice, are burdened with an illness. Then we see how insurance companies kick these people while they're down by using a variety of tactics to avoid paying their medical costs, and even jack up their insurance, or cancel it altogether. The victims are people from all walks of life who never thought it could happen to them. We are even taken through the history of how HMOs began, with excerpts played from the Nixon Whitehouse tapes where then President Nixon is informed that the main purpose of these new organizations is to provide less care to the sick, and more profit for these organizations. This is met with his approval, and follows with his public national endorsement of those organizations as quality providers of health care.
Michael Moore travels to Canada, the UK, and France to do a comparative study of how socialized health care is possible in these countries, and what the drawbacks are. Socialism has long been a dirty word in America, and scare tactics have been used to convince Americans that socialized medicine would be a slippery slope and the downfall of democracy. Yet, its all unfounded. Many socialized services are provided by the government such as free service from the police, firemen, libraries, etc., but why not free health care? As these questions are explored in Europe, the answeres are not drawn out or forced, because it simply makes sense. Is anyone going to argue that they would rather pay out of their pocket than have the government pay health care?
The answer I always hear in response to those questions is that taxes are really high in those countries. Taxes are higher, but you know what, they live pretty well in those countries, Canada included. This is something that some people who have never travelled outside of the U.S. don't understand, and Moore does a good job of illustrating this with his travels. Most people are not living in squalor in Canada, France, and the UK. Its a health care system based on humanity, instead of trying to shaft people for as much money as you can, even when they're sick. And they are still able to afford all the luxuries they want in life, and to live quite happily. It seems that those who fear higher taxes seem to think that socialized medicine will prevent them from achieving their dream of a big pimpin' lifestyle with a mansion and numerous sports cars, when the reality is that these people are usually slaves to jobs they don't like and are often afraid of leaving them for fear of losing their health benefits.
Another concern is that in socialized health care systems there are enormous waits and line-ups to see doctors. This isn't the case either. Anyone who thinks they can see a doctor quickly in an American emergency room probably has never been to the E.R. Since many Americans don't have coverage, they often treat the E.R. like their primary care doctor since the E.R. has to see them. Its true there are less MRI and CT machines in those other countries, but they rely more on their clinical skills. The reason so many MRIs and CTs are ordered in America is because there is so much litigation in the U.S. that doctors often feel they need to cover their ass by ordering them. Some people are quick to believe the lies they are fed by politicians and corporations, even from the very same ones that are trying to fuck them.
Part of the movie's conclusion plays in the trailer, where Moore takes a group of sick 9/11 workers to Guantanamo Bay to get socialized health care like the prisoners get. I worried about how this would play out, because no doubt about it, this is one of Moore's grandiose theatrical devices to get his point across. But when turned away from the prison, they go to Cuba and are treated humanely and given treatment in what turns out to be one of the more heartwarming parts of the movie. People whose livelihoods had crumbled because they were overwhelmed by medical bills and tossed aside like garbage by their own country are given treatment in Cuba, a country the US government considers an enemy. They even met with Cuban firefighters who greeted them warmly and were eager to give their regards and tell them that they wanted to help with the clean-up after 9/11 but were denied by the US government.
This movie drives home so many points which should be clear as day to everyone, yet are clouded by self-interested groups in America. This film is not necessarily critical of America, and is not trying to claim that these other countries are better countries, or anything of the sort which would make anyone question their own patriotism. It simply makes people question why they would be content with a health care system which does not value them or their fellow citizens as much as it values the almighty dollar. People cheered and applauded during moments in this movie, it was poignant and moving at times, and funny at others. I cannot recommend this movie enough. Every American MUST see this movie!
This will be my last review for a while because as of this weekend I'm going to be travelling in Europe for the summer. So unless I stumble across an early film release while I'm there (which is possible) I'll see you again in a couple months. Peace, and have a great summer.
Bobo_Vision
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or can I?
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1 week premature here. my schedule is a bit tweaked, so I missed it on Saturday. Will definitely give this one a theatrical viewing, though. Love em or hate em, Moore helps raise social consciousness of the more critical issues facing us as a modern society. Hopefully not just discussion but ACTION will follow in the wake of this film...
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I saw it last week, there's a great DVD rip up on bit torrent and a friend burned me a DVD for it. Amazing movie, brought tears to my eyes at parts. A must see for all Americans!
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Michael Moore should be arrested for treason and deported to Cuba under the Sedition Act. You can look it up. It's a perfectly valid charge. The man has committed high treason and sedition against the United States. This site gives me much joy, but their sycophantic support of traitorous liberals like Moore and Al Gore make me want to vomit. You lie down with dogs, you're going to get fleas, guys.
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Then GIVE ME FLEAS, BABY! Only narrow-minded people would do what you are suggesting, cygnus.
Oh, and I LOVE trolls... -
God, it always fascinates me when people tote the party line despite overwhelming evidence that they're simply wrong. Thank God for Moore - we need someone to remind us that we're dealing with the worst president in history.
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wow, sounds like a a good old country sayin there boy! i can almost hear george w sayt it himself. sadly he cant make it sound any dumber then you allready did. funny you use the word sycophantic by the way. i guess you think flattery is more offensive then buying your way huh?
Anyway i hope you get a yeast infection and die. ( how liberal of me hehe) oooh and to get that one... you actually have to see the movie.
and i loooove trolls too -
It's not terribly wise to say that you know for a fact that someone has committed treason. The reason is something called "misprision of treason"...http://tinyurl.com/yt5s83In short, if you have evidence that someone's committed treason (Al Gore, Michael Moore) and don't report it to the authorities, you could end up going to prison.
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...just because you hate its healthcare system.
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Money corrupts and the health care industry is big, big money. The levels bureaucracy and manipulation are gigantic. It isn't a conservative/liberal issue, although the the people getting rich off of health care issues are glad to have it portrayed that way.
For example. Genentec is a company that makes a drug called Avastin. It was developed to help cut off the blood supply to tumors and, therefore, shrink the tumor. It was accidently discovered that Avastin stops and often reverses the effects of Macular Degeneration if it is caught early. The shots of Avastin are needed about every 3 months in many patients. The price for Avastin as a cancer drug is only $50 a shot. Genentec took Avastin and altered it to infuse into the eye quicker, which also means it leaves the eye quicker, and renamed the drug Luscentis. Luscentis and Avastin are essentially the same drug. Avastin shots are appromimately $50 a treatment and Luscentis shots are approximately $2,000 a shot...AND Luscentis requires the shots to be taken 3 times as often. The shots are taken in the eye and there is a risk of retinal detachment and infection every time you receive a shot.
Just for instance...
Go Michael Moore. -
That's sarcasm right? RIGHT? "traitorous liberals like Moore and Al Gore" is so over the top that it's a pretty funny riff on scary right-wingers. Although, it IS sarcasm right? Here in Europe we're often confused about American democracy. You are all so very proud of it, but yet inevitably someone like Moore (who actually USES his right of free speech) gets branded a traitor in these kinds of discussions. In the Netherlands this is unheard off. NOBODY will call you unpatriotic if you say: "you know I don't agree with our prime-minister on that issue, because... "
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1. Masturbate to the voice of Dub-ya. 2. Masturbate to head shots of Crap Channel's Rush Limburger. 3. Masturbate to old episodes of Family Ties when Alex P. Keaton be preachin' Nixon's gospel to his tree-huggin', hippie parents. 4. Drive my Lexus SUV to my Super Church where I can network with potential business contacts...errrrr.....I mean praise Jesus. 5. Go out and play golf 3 days a week under the guise of 'soliciting potential clients'. 6. Forget 6. I gotta go count my money.
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How has he commited treason? (Genuine question)
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Sorry to hear about the Conservatives in your country being shouted down, however your NeoCons have had two terms to make an impression and all they've done is eroded your freedom more than any other administration and started another Vietnam.
Michael Moore might be a liberal but he's not getting Americans killed every day in Iraq or plotting to take away even more of your freedoms.
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considers an enemy"- in regards to Cuba. Oh man, what the fuck? Cuba IS a fucking enemy of the US. There is no considering about it. What a bunch of tripe. Actually you lost me at Michael Moore, but I was giving at least the REVIEW a shot until that point. For fucks sake! I'll still see this "movie" to stay on top of Moore's latest mindgames and chicanery, but it seems like more of the same. And this reviewer is as ignorant (albeit in a different way) as a backwoods redneck.
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The movie is successful because it drives home the point that the heaalth care system here is broke and needs to be fixed. The examples of other countries clearly show if they can do it(and peopel can still make money from it)why cant we and people are suffering because of corp greed. Is there any reason why someone can get meds they need in Cuba for 3 pesos or $10 in london for what costs $130 here?
It doesnt just cover healthcare when going overseas but talks about employee treatment in general.
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"round up the 28 percent that still support these two criminals" I want Mr. Bush in prison, but a President who has the authority to round up all the millions of supporters of a previous President would be a dictator. Don't become your enemy.
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And Moore might vote for Fred Thompson this year. More of his bullshit. Of course when they went to Cuba every handsome doctor would run to cure the poor, sick Americans. I'm sure that your local, poor, starving, peasant without a film crew following him gets the same EXACT healthcare. Oh, and you don't have to wait 5 months to get a boil lanced in Canada either.
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whats the penalty these days in the states for saying you're a commie? Are there interventions? will your neighbours come over and try to reason with you? Are there still hearings to see if anyone is a commie ? or is it now just only frowned upon?
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because it seemed like a ranting of a 9/11 conspiracist. But I really thought this film hit a nerve. It needs to be seen by every American, then he or she can make up her mind about the healthcare system. The healthcare industry does not care whether you are Liberal or Conservative. It is a one party system, the mighty dollar. When a conservative gets sick, it will screw him or her over just as it will a liberal. You can argue Moore's tactics, which are always questionable, but you can't argue the very valid points he made in the film. The US healthcare industry does not care about its citizen, as it is not voted by the citizens. We have a socialized educational system, why not a socialized healthcare system?
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Other than people rolling their eyes at you because you're mental.
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He states right up front in his review that he is a far lefty. That's a step up from the usual reviews here that start out with the writer trying to claim they're politically moderate or even slightly conservative before going on a long liberal rant. Kind of refreshing to see someone come right out and admit it for once. Did anyone actually think Bobovision wasn't about to praise Sicko after he said his politics leaned to the left of a socialist government?
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That Bowling for Colombine movie he made the arguement that because a woman had to take a bus and work a job that her son was therefore babysat by his uncle who left a loaded pistol on the ground of his home and the kid took it to school and shot another kid and therefore we shouldn't force single mothers to work because look what happens.WTF????I'm sure Sicko will be filled with even more convoluted arguements that actually end up discrediting Moore's cause more than aiding it. Which is shame, because I think this is a really good cause.
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As with all of Michael Moore's movies, hold off on seeing it until it gets a little bit of scrutiny. I'm finding about half of his flicks content is staged. (I am a Michigan conservative and have seen many sides of Moore.) I've lived in Canada for a few years in the 90's and found the services to be adequate, though at least ten years behind the US system. Of course if you're a Canadian, you have a lot to be proud of with your system. Health care is one less hassle you have to worry about and the stress of dealing with health care probably kills more people than it saves. As far as socialized medicine goes, it's going to happen, period. Get ready America. It's gonna be big, bloated, and like Social Security, will be the biggest ponzi-scheme to foisted upon this country in a long time. As Americans, you will have TWO types of care, premium care for those who can afford it, and goverment care for those who can not. Like public (government)schools, ask yourself this question; "Where do most of this country's elites (government and private sector) send most of their kids to school? Private or public?. Answer that, my friend, and you'll have gone a long way to realizing what government health care will be like! ;o)
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that this film will be advertised as a sequel to Farenheit by the Right and they will portray it as leftist propaganda rather than an assault on the faulty health care system that fucks anyone, no matter which party they are in. I hope this does well and I hope people will do something about the health care problems that are going on.
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Over here in the UK, the NHS isn't perfect but what you get is good standard of care for any illness or injury you have, without worrying over a huge bill or if an insurer will validate your cliam or not. That's a huge deal, and universal health care for all is such a powerful concept, held by most Brits so fervently that no government of any stripe has dared try to dismantle it.
It isn't perfect: we have waiting lists. We have a regulatory body that has turned down drug licenses due to perceived cost for the NHS, we have Public/Private Finance initiatives instigated by the current government which are backfiring appallingly makikng private firms richer and stymying money from getting to the 'front line' of health care.
But it's still a world away from the US system which seems so ruife for abuse by big corporations - an insurance scam to go alongside organised crime 'protection'.
And look, we're pretty damn well off in the UK for the most part. Our socialised medicine doesn't hit our wallet like you think it does, and we still get medical help - "from the cradle to the grave" - when we need it most.
On a sidenote, what is it with so many of you Americans shouting 'treason' when confronted with a view you don't agree with? Man, that's weird for an outsider to witness... -
Liberal policies are never meant to be appled to liberals themselves, just to the rest of us. They're special, so they're exempt. That's why they can complain about the destruction of the environment while living in 15,000 sq. foot homes, flying around in private jets, and sailing in 300 ft yachts. That's why they agitate for raising the minimum wage all the while paying illegal aliens under the table to be their maids, nannies, and gardeners. Or in the case of this website, why they can run glowing review after glowing review about a movie on the supposed lack of affordable health insurance while not offering healthcare insurance to their own employees.
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..."Lighten up, Francis."
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The NHS is the National Health Care System in the UK and it's on the verge of collapse. I'd probably agree with Moore's views but his way of making a point is incredibly hypocritical. The NHS in the UK is by far the best solution to the problem as the people who end up living in squaller are the low paid nurses http://tinyurl.com/39lstg or how about the outbreak of MRSA http://tinyurl.com/3yleq9 due to 'dirty' hospital wards, and why is it so bad mainly because the system is in £700 million in debt, that's $1.4 billion. One of the biggest hit services is dentists http://tinyurl.com/2oxd4v when dentists cannot even give care to children you know there's an issue. It's true that waiting times have decreased but if you think over crowded waiting rooms in A&E (ER) don't happen over here think again.
I hope when I see the movie that Moore plays out both the pro's and con's of paying for national healthcare system instead of just pointing across the ocean and saying "Look how great it is over there!" -
It's no surprise to me that right-wing-Bush-cocksmokers like Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh and Fox "news" started aggressively ranting against this movie weeks before it is even seen by the general public (how is that fair and balanced?). Such parasites (and the ones they lie for) would rather that the American public didn't see the film. They would rather silence the dialogue on reasonable healthcare so they can keep sucking the life out us.
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"On a sidenote, what is it with so many of you Americans shouting 'treason' when confronted with a view you don't agree with?" As an Independent (arguably left-leaning), here's my theory: it's a combination of several factors.First, there's the Internet, where anyone can say anything (except on sites with monitors). So as a result, every nasty thought you could never say in public because you'd get beaten to a pulp can be vented on the Internet with little or no ramifications.Second, the times we live in bring out authoritarian-types who pretty much want a benevolent dictatorship that will protect them from terrorists the way that a free society "can't". That in turn leads the opposition to assume that all their political opponents are these authoritarian-types, even if the authoritarians are merely a minority.So now you have one group of people who think that everyone they disagree with is going to get them killed by terrorists, and the other group of people who think that everyone they disagree with wants a warmongering, bigoted dictatorship.That's my theory. Feel free to dispute me on this, and I promise I won't call you a commie/fascist/traitor/whatever.
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This Marxist anti-American is not a documentary maker, but a propagandist in the best Riefenstahl tradition. He supported the Sandinista Communists in Nicaragua and opposed democracy there. He also opposes NATO's war against the Taliban, the government responsible for 9/11. His wall-to-wall lies and propaganda techniques in FAHRENHEIT 9/11 have been well documented. Even earlier works have been criticised for playing fast and loose with the truth. He uses anecdotal evidence, innuendo, and distortion to fool weak minded Lib utopists only too eager to reinforce their blame America first worldview. The Leftist media goes ga-ga for every manipulation
he presents, since it matches their own agenda. Only later do we find them out. Here, he starts out with perhaps the most idiotic premise in doc history.... that Cuba's healthcare system is better than America's. How naive and ignorant do you need to be to say, "Well, yeah I guess that's true." Moore's worth millions, you think he goes there or Canada for treatment? And there is no real debate on socialized medecine. It pretty much sucks wherever in use. Citizens with any means in Canada and elsewhere come here for major treatment before their own country's healthcare kills them. Oh, it's fine if you never get seriously ill, But how'd you like to wait 6 months for a CAT scan or 10 months for exploratory surgery when your life depends on it? All of the miracle drugs and advanced research exists because of the profit motive here. Take that away, cap payments and research and technological advancements dry up. Just think a minute.... we should turn over the entire healthcare system to a bureacracy that can't handle passport requests, that can't seal their own border, that spends $600 on a toilet seat, that blows your money on nonsense and largess like Paris on a drunken binge at the Beverly Center? Do you want that bureacracy to be responsible for keeping you alive? Right now EVERYTHING is politicized. You're sooo worried whether Bush is eavesdropping or looking at your library card... give them control of your health and see how much liberty you lose. Talk about ultimate control. It would also turn us into the #1 Nanny State. If you get sick with a non-pc related illness, well, we MIGHT treat you, but only if you change the way you live. Don't smoke, no fast food, no promiscuity, jog every day or we might just let you die. It would be used as a hammer to crush any and all activity and habits not deemed 'acceptable' by bureacrats because, you know, 'They' are paying for the outcome. Then let's invite in 100 million of the world's poorest, least educated people and pay for their healthcare too. Why, you keep some of your paycheck, don't you? You can afford to pay a lot more taxes. Socialized medecine doesn't work for the same reason Marxism didn't work. In the end it becomes a method to ration the most expensive procedures, denying treatment no matter whether you can afford it or not. Along with all the other negatives, this becomes the second worst ever idea to come out of Washington, only exceeded by the Open Borders Amnesty Bill. Whenever you hear, "I'm from the Government. I'm here to help you." RUN! Run for your life. Government IS the problem, NOT the solution. -
I say that in ALL seriousness because certain groups are selective in their definition of treason. For example Larry Franklin should be handed capital punishment for his selling of US secrets to Israel. However, bargains can be made as to not make him a traitor. Rinse and repeat for the entire Israeli spy-ring. But that is ok, the US Justice department should go after.....Michael Moore? Oh did you hear the one where Bush is considering pardoning a convicted traitor? Scooter Libby? Oh, and read up on Richard Perle and tell me how he is not a traitor, yet Michael Mooore Is one?
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Ive had a chance to see the film already and I have to say it was very even handed in its potrayal of how our "American" medical system has become an over-inflated joke when it comes to taking care of the basics. This time around, Michael Moore handled up on both sides of the row and layed blame on everyone. I also agree with quite a few posters on here, we need to start providing everyone some base form of healthcare that isnt a convoluted backdoor burecracy, Im willing to pay more taxes for that.
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did you see the movie?
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Roboteer, that is the best that you can come up with? To use little details to try to unravel Moore's basic premise that these private healthcare organizations are not caring about the individuals that they should take care of. Oh, stop talking shit about Canada because i think that you are taking liberties with the truth. 1) Our middle class do not pay or go to the US for healthcare. 2) How are the US efforts to seal the Mexican border coming along? 3) Stop spewing utter tripe please.
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...I'm tired of hearing liberals whine about getting tarred with the "traitor" label. You enjoy the right to be as much as an ass as you want to be so don't have a hairy-conniption-fit when someone suggests that your interests are misguided. I mean, so what if every argument ends with you saying that the US sucks? That doesn't make you the "t-word". Right? I could be worse, you could actually be a citizen of Cuba, and after bitching about your kid being shipped off to a government farm at the age of 10 (that happens to every Cuban citizen with children) your neighbor turns you in to the government for seditious language, and you spend the next three months getting whacked upside the head with a phone book in a urine stained prison cell. I mean, really, you libs really feel put-upon when someone calls you a traitor? Someone call a Whaaaa-mbulance.
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So I guess that you are right biggles!
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...anyone who describes the UK healthcare system as consisting solely of the NHS is missing the point. We have private healthcare too for anyone who wants to pay for it. We have the NHS as a baseline safety net for everyone - and it gives very good service. It is not on the verge of collapse... funding to it has been doubled over the past ten years. The budget overrun another poster refers to is a proportionally-tiny failure of some local authorities to keep to their targets for this year... Many people also have private health insurance, which you can pay for or which is provided by your employer. My wife and I are covered for about £680 (that's about $1300) per year, so that we can choose whichever expert in the country we want if we get sick, instead of being referred automatically to the local expert. We're also then guaranteed no wait time. My father is American, I have lots of US relatives - I know what healthcare costs over there. What we pay in tax towards the NHS, and towards comprehensive private insurance on top, is less than my Californian cousins pay for insurance which left them with a bill for $7500 in extra fees when one of them needed an operation on her spine.
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Which is more offensive? Moore's latest pack of lies that was so over the top that even the Canadian press thought it was too much, or this review which seems to be a propeganda piece rather than a film critique. The reviewer flat out lies when he says there are no waiting lists in Canada and other countries where the government runs health care. The Fraser Institute has documented waits of up to several years for surgeries and other procedures that Americans get within days. Unneccessary pain, suffering, and even death ensue. Some procedures available in America are not available at all in Canada, Britain, or other places where socialized medicine means equal medicocrity for all.
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What you say simply CANNOT be accurate. If the NHS is so cool then why was Austin Powers teeth so messed up! Seriously, the idea that another country just might have a better way of doing things is lost on some people.
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You've illustrated exactly what I've predicting about our future government run healthcare. Real healthcare for the rich (yay!) and great incentive for the poor not to be po-no-mo! (or at least they'll have something else to bitch about)
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Who the hell is that? Was that the guy that was caught red-handed pilfering 9-11 related documents from the congressional library, stuffing them in his pants, and either destroying or burying them at a construction sight? Cause THAT GUY needs to fry or at least temporarily have his security clearance revoked.
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Gobofraggleuk illustrates that the NHS works and provides a good standard of healthcare. A certain section of the US is in a huge denial as to the extent of poverty in the US. Americans only learned the tragedy of Katrina after the BBC showed video! Sounds preposterous? Not when you consider that if the accounts were on the table, the people would question why billions are being spent on war, while pennies go to education and healthcare!
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MM may temporarily raise awareness on the issue but nothing is going to change. Far too many Americans have their heads up their asses. We do not have the educated voter base needed to be a healthy republic. We are a nation of morons. You know what's a controversial topic in America right now? EVOLUTION.
Republicans have fucked this country in the ass so hard that we may never be a functioning republic again. Nothing is going to get done about health care. Nothing will ever get done about global warming. Unless the people do their duty and take this country back... I've resigned myself to the fact that this game will be played until the end, and the good guys are not going to be the winners. Buy your guns now, learn some self defense and prepare yourselves. -
As long as you do not screw other countries in the process. The US is the richest country in the world. Cut the spending on war and increase domestic spending. The problem with some statements regarding Moore is that they are selectively targeting him as a traitor, while letting those that spy for other countries slide....not good cricket!
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Dude, I live near Detroit, I don't need the BBC (which no one in the US watches) or a natural disaster to tell me what real poverty is. Truth is, government "help" is what keeps most poor people serving another master. And fish tacos needs to seriously take a look at the 70's to see an apocolyptic public, press, and government. Look up, "misery index" and global cooling. And finally, "Lighten up, Francis.".
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Jun 25, 2007 9:01:14 AM CDT
Theres a reason the US is so wealthy
by howaboutanicecupofgofuckyourself
You have to pay for your health care. As a Scotsman who's living in Dallas, it's still very surreal to me to hear all the horror stories I hear from everyday people. I'd say 99% of what I hear is negative, about how often they get shafted by medical bills, even if they're insured. The country is so 'wealthy' because it's treating it's people as cash cows instead of citizens, and for some reason nobody seems to complain about it during election times, instead reverting to the usual tedious abortion and gay marriage nonsense. Maybe this time around we'll get a Clinton or an Obama in the hot seat who may actually give a damn about americans instead of what's in their wallets. It's a shame.
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"Some procedures available in America are not available at all in Canada, Britain, or other places where socialized medicine means equal medicocrity for all."....... Actually, almost everything is available here in the UK for free and the things which aren't available for free, you can pay for. And they don't cost more here than they do where you are... Wait times here are now very short or non-existent. In France, there are no wait times. The World Health Organisation listed France as having the best healthcare in the world. It's run through insurance and is almost as expensive as the American system, except that it covers everyone... I like a lot of things about the US, and a lot of things about aspects of US healthcare, but please don't pretend that 'socialized medicine' causes 'suffering, and even death' when the US population has a lower average life expectancy than most developed countries (most of which have 'socialized medicine').
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education and healthcare each alone than it does on defense.
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Jun 25, 2007 9:04:01 AM CDT
And coming from the UK, the NHS works
by howaboutanicecupofgofuckyourself
It may not be the best in the world (I think France holds that record) but it's pretty damned good and free at the point of entry, and it bugs me to hear other people from the UK drag it down. I'm guessing if one of their relatives were injured tomorrow and the NHS provided them free health care, they wouldn't be standing in front of the doctors and nurses telling them they weren't living up to his expectations.
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Jun 25, 2007 9:04:20 AM CDT
Biggles, I can see Detriot from Across the River! ;)
by darfurontherocks
Detroit has some beautiful buildings. They should renovate some of those.
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Ramsey's the man! I sorta felt sorry for that fat Chinese fella though.
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If Roboteer's seen the movie or not. He responded to the argument that's been going on for quite some time. I doubt MM has really shed any new light on this if you've actually done a little research on the topic, pro or con. The point being, Roboteer nailed it. There's really no rebuttal to his argument that holds a shred of weight. After reading this talkback, I'm so relieved that the overall sentiment here is, in reality, a tiny fraction of reality. i imagine that when the majority of you grow up and start functioning in the real world, your views will change to reflect what is actually going on around you and the world you live in. I know mine did.
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surely 'american idol' and 'who wants to be a millionaire?' were more successful adaptations than 'dancing with the stars'?
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2 months ago I entered a hospital at 1 pm with a puncture in my arm. Left the hospital at 11 pm with several stitches and a really grumpy attitude. 10 days later at had to go to a doctor to get the stitches removed. 2 months later I receive a bill from the Blue Cross telling me my stitches were a preexisting condition.
PREEXISTING CONDITION! F!U! -
SUCKSSUCKSSUCKSSUCKSSUCKSSUCKSSUCKSSUCKSSUCKSSUCKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!
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Everything they "know" about the world comes directly from Rush Limbaugh's lips. Read a newspaper people.
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"slaves serving another master" Heh, very clever for a f-ing neo-con. Maybe you should use your evil powers for good.
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Jun 25, 2007 9:23:55 AM CDT
So all you right wingers are HAPPY with your health car
by larry of arabia
You don't know a single person who has been screwed by the system? You know no elderly patients who fell in the donut hole and had to choose between medication and food, or worse what medication to take? You don't know a single person whose medication has been changed by insurance because they made a deal with a drug company, and not by their doctor? That's happened to me twice this year. They even called my doctor and told her to switch my perscription or I'd be charded $300 a month for one of my pills, an amount I can't afford. You must not know any poor people who have had to sell their house so they could get cancer treatment because they lost their jobs and their new insurer wouldn't cover a "pre existing condition." You must live in a world where unicorns fart rainbows.
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Now that you've brought sexy back, I see the error of my ways. I've seen the US versions of millionaire and idol - all I know about DWTS is that the one-legged-gold-digger woman was on it.
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Thanks for admitting that a self confessed neo-con is "clever". In my world of rainbow-farting-unicorns, my brand of evil (it's called capitalism, Larry) keeps my family in good health, thank you very much.
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Who are you kidding?
"As with all of Michael Moore's movies, hold off on seeing it until it gets a little bit of scrutiny. I'm finding about half of his flicks content is staged."
"...I'm tired of hearing liberals whine"
"government "help" is what keeps most poor people serving another master."
Look up 'dupe'. And finally, "Jog on." -
all of the developed countries of the world are capitalist...
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The law says that Journalists may enter Cuba (or any other "enemy" nation or warzone) without fear of reprisal because reporting on the state of things IS THEIR JOB, and it's a freedom of the press thing. You can check THAT out if you want, but I suspect all the assholes in here crying "treason!" and "Librul!" are just fuckhead idiots who parrot whatever Limbaugh/Hannity/Coulter/O'Reilly say on the TV. They know they're a dying breed, and that intolerance, bigotry, and fascism are slowly being defeated in the United States. They hunger for the old days when they could use racial slurs openly, and treat women like garbage. Half these people probably still toe the OLD party line of wanting to prevent inter-racial marriage and keeping women from having the vote. in short, they're pea-brained assholes; Pay them no mind.
Sorry, I have no "good" argument" for a place like this, because so many jerks popped in to give their opinion on Moore, and not their opinion on his movie's merits or the topic at hand (health care in America, which IS fucked up and will soon only apply to the richest Americans. Corporations are pulling health benefits left and right, and small businesses can't afford health plans in the first place.)
The old ways of being profit-focused, anti-civil rights, pro-bigotry, and pro-fascism are almost over. The neoconservatives are destroying themselves from within (and make no mistake; There aren't many actual conservatives left at the top- Just neoconservativism, which is another flavor of fascism and was founded by fascists from Egypt). It's sad, really. For over a decade, we've let men that would make Goebbels blush be in charge of our country and tell us that the government calls the shots, and the People must obey. This is not what our founders wanted. The government is OUR servant. They do not make the rules; We do. --Or we should, ideally. Unfortunately, the government has been poisoned by fascists and plutocrats in the employ of big corporations, and will remain so until Americans have the balls to take it back.
Michael Moore has the balls to fight for the ethical return to the country he loves. Apparently, some of the conservatives in this thread are good little brainwashed consumer soldiers, and lack the balls (or maybe the desire) to resist the status quo. NEWS FLASH guys! You will never be part of the elite, no matter how hard you work, no matter how many asses you kiss, no matter how much you praise Bill O'Reilly and Dick Cheney. You will never be part of their club; You are too poor, lowbrow, and useless to be anything but a member of the proletariat who dutifully waves the flag and defends your oppressors when told. Suck it up. You won't know what to do when freedom finally returns to America and the government stops trying to terrify you into submission with bogeymen like "Th' Terrurusts" and "Communism."
It must suck to be a conservative. You're always scared of some threat, some enemy, whether it's the Red Menace, or a suicide bomber in your mini-mall. You're always circling the wagons, waiting for death, and praying that Jesus will let you in to the fairytale afterlife of which you've convinced yourself. You're always worried about people stopping you from pushing your religion on other people, always worried about poor people taking your money, always worried about the damned liberals and their war on Christmas. You're like bees in a jar, and the pundits take great pleasure in shaking the jar ALL THE TIME to make you buzz like crazy, certain that doom is coming to the hive.
I'm so glad I don't belong to your hive. -
I live in Canada, always have, whether that makes you discount what I have to say is your problem. I just had a baby, it cost me nothing. No hidden bills not late charges nothing. My wifes bi-weekly checkups with our daughter costs nothing. Medication for any and all things in our life cost less than a starbucks coffee Venti. If this is the evils of socialism then fine. Hail the grand evil. And as for taxes, okay, sure, their high, I pay $45 bucks to fill up my new car. DVD's cost a few bucks more but now that our dollar is worth exactly the same as yours (sorry a .02 cent difference in your favor natch) I just order stuff from Amazon.com. This may be baiting, but its sure is sweet to now go to the US because our buck is worth so much more there than vise versa. Being in the service industry where for a long time US coin was worth 1.5 on our dollar and is now 1.02 its funny how many Yankees come over saying what's that in US?...You just blink and go "the price on the tag." Fun stuff. Truly. But yeah, I ain't hurting financially having universal heath care. So please no one argue that it hurts us cuz it don't.
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Bush will probably go into hiding in Paraguay (he bought a nice spread there). The Crawford "ranch" has always been a disposable set piece.
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One of my American relatives always describes the US as 'capitalist' and European countries as 'socialist' and, each time, I wonder what she thinks these words mean... she seems to think that paying for anything collectively is 'socialist' and that this isn't much different than 'communist' which she thinks is a route towards 'atheist' (the devil must therefore be involved somewhere, she fears). When she found out that our water in the UK is provided by a private company and that there are different water suppliers, she was horrified that it isn't provided by the state, as hers in in California. She didn't understand that she was contradicting herself.
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You heard it here first.
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And until some of you realize that, your opinion is moot. I paid too much for healthcare under Clinton. I'm paying too much for it under Bush. But I'd still rather pay too much for it than to, essentially, not have it.
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but you're wrong. I am a conservative, and I can't stand Rush Limbaugh. I can't stand Michael Savage. I can't stand Bill O'Reilly. I also can't stand Michael Moore or Al Franken or most writers for the Associated Press. I can't stand any political windbag more interested in sound bites and controversy that actual discourse- conservative or liberal. Saying that all conservatives live and breathe by any of the conservative radio and television personalites is as ridiculous, reactionary and uninformed as me saying that all liberals are nu-socialist wackos. I open plenty of newspapers, read them too. Most US newspapers are steeped in liberal bias (how can they not be when so much of their news comes from the Associated Press)- that doesn't mean that there isn't viable info in there too. I look at all sides before making a decision on what I think. To accuse me (or anyone else) of being uninformed just because our beliefs aren't exactly like yours is pretty fucking pig-headed.
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He won for best documentary for a work that has been shown to be pure, unadluterated fiction. Manipulated interviews, chopped up archival footage, and blatant lies. won't see this and neither should anyone else.
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Sounds like you can't stand anybody. Don't hate. Love, Frijole. Love.
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Will be so much better than the bloated insurance bureaucracy. Socialized medicine sucks, and there are plenty of horror stories--strangely, there's a socialized medicine horror story to match every big insurance company horror story.
Seriously, what makes people think a big government bureaucracy with little-to-no accountability (the people in charge of the socialized medicine bureaucracy of the future aren't going to be elected, people) is going to be superior? Medicare and medicaid don't cover stuff for arbitrary reasons quite a lot, and are often slower than insurance companies to cover new treatments.
But the real point is: the government is people, just like the insurance companies. Big Government is not sprinkled with magic fairy dust. Some people might have better experiences under socialized medcine (or convince themselves they are, because command economies where the government is in control and pays for everything makes them hard) but others will have worse experiences. The Avastin story about how the evil companies change the formulation and charge more money is interesting, given that at least it's fucking available (were you going to mix it up in your bathtub, braniac?) and those $2000 a treatment shots cover the R&D for the drug that's going to save your sorry ass one day and . . . private insurers have incoporated newer cancer fighting drugs into what they will pay for much faster than the single-payer system in other countries, making the survival rates for cancer patients in America much better. Damn insurance companies! Making my older relatives lives longer with your cynical coverage of new cancer treatments!
Seriously, the insurance bureaucracy sucks, but if you think the medical DMV is going to solve all our problems, then you must believe FEMA had everything handled during Katrina, and now everything is fine everywhere, because FEMA waved their magic paperwork wand and gave people $2000 gift cards.In a single-payer system, the only customer is going to be the government. You, alive or dead, will simply be the commodity to be shuffled and to sign forms so the government will pay the provider. For the most part, what sucks about our modern insurance system will simply be worse under a single-payer system . . . especially in this country. But, yeah, I think it's probably going to happen. Although why anyone who has seen government in action could ever want government in charge of their healthcare, I have no clue. And why government wants to be the subject of countless lawsuits that will help make the cost of universal healthcare be 50 times whatever they project it will be when they get it passed, I don't know.
But perhaps Michael Moore covers that in SICKO! -
Damn liberal bias!
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Then again, I'm not looking for a free ride on someone else's back, which is what all these social schemes always boil down to in the end. It isn't a matter of whether or not one has ever been screwed (or has seen someone screwed) by an insurance company, it's a difference between two radically different views of life and existence: self-responsibility versus nanny-ism.
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I just read the earlier posts. Rather than reading a US stats analysis that is designed to bolster US reasoning why not actually ask a Canuck? My dad had prostate surgery a week after discovering the enlargement (sorry for the image) and it was not a life threatening affair, my mom decided on plastic surgery for a number of her features and was able to book that right away (off topic I know but figure somone might bring up elective surgery) I went to University with a norotic chick who got MRI's on a regular basis because she could. In 30 years of being around countless other Canadians, I have never known any to wait years/months/ect... for a surgery that they needed or wanted and I have lived in remote Northern Ontario, Toronto, Vancouver, remote Alberta, and now very remote Vancouver Island. No one waits like that. Sorry all lies.
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"How does one draw that conclusion?"
By the ability to read. -
I really don't want any part of this argument, but it has always bugged me when people refer to the NHS as 'free'. It is not free - we all of us pay for it each and every month, just like we do our taxes and whatnot. Cheap, maybe, but not free.Also, I'm looking forward to this one. I understand Michael Moore can be a little flexible with the truth to get his point across, but so what? So is everyone else these days. I don't always agree with him, but he's funny and entertaining, which is a good start when you're dealing with a subject as potentially dull as healthcare.
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"Why do wingnuts even bother coming here? We're liberals! They have their own water fountains, and they should just drink out of those. But, uh, conservatives are close-minded and don't expose themselves to different points of view. But when they clearly are exposing themselves to different points of view here, that's stupid or bad because they don't lockstep agree with us. Because lockstep, mindless agreement is good, if your a liberal. But bad if your a conservative. So I don't understand why they are here exposing themselves to different points of view. And then I will accuse conservatives of being close minded and getting all their information from Rush Limbaugh, even though that is self-evidently silly because they are clearly here, reading alternative points of view, even though they disagree with them 100%. But if they were really open minded, they'd abandone their own opinions and agree with my opinions! Because what can possibly be more reasoned and open-minded than agreeing 100% with my brilliant liberal views about how everything will be wonderful, when the government controls it all? But, uh, freedoms have been eroded under Bush. So we should put 1/7th of the national economy, all the jobs, and all healthcare under control of the government. We'll have the government control how many doctors we should have and what fields they go into and what they can charge and what they can treat and how they must diagnose illness and that's not eroding any freedom! And the government should mandate gas prices by law. And Michael Moore is not fat, he's just big-boned."
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"Damn, Comedian. You just shot that Korean bitch!" "Vietnamese." "Vietnamese, Korean, who gives a fuck. You need to chill out motherfucker!"
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how's that for short and succinct?
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You think that's not going to happen with National Health Care? There will be Republican presidents again. And the Democrats do occasionally stack cabinet positions with cronies. Some might argue that the State Department is full of liberal cronies. What happens when Tommy Thompson is head of Single Payer Healthcare? You don't think some Compassionate Conservative isn't going to put cronies in charge of National Health Care, or that cronies in the FEMA bureaucracy dating back to the days of Jimmy Carter don't contribute to the ineffectiveness of the agency?
But things might be better for you under the DMV medical system, so screw everybody else. -
"US newspapers are steeped in liberal bias (how can they not be when so much of their news comes from the Associated Press)"
haha... yeah, the 'drive-by media', right? Chalk up another one in the 'dupe' column. -
I heard he was indifferent to them, but was trying not to hurt their feelings.
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While I would never say that our system is all flowers and butterflies and our governement isn't rife with corruption. The human faces you deal with when sick are what matters as well as the bills that come aftewards and to that end, yes, our evil socialist society with its BIG government rocks compared to yours. And as for horror stories, sorry been around for awhile, one of my best friends is a doctor and my mom and mother in law are both nurses their whole lives. Those horror stories are few in far between. Medical research in Canada is amongst the best in the world, read a published peer reviewed journal once and a while and you will see that tons of advancements and papers come from Canadian Universities (I figure you know your stuff from your posts but seriously, we've got the medical chops up here on Cancer research and sick kids and certainly new tech/medicines) What sticks in my mind recently was that whole Bird flu pandemic fear where Bush was looking to buy tamiflu from Canada and I had TONS of US travellers asking me where they could buy some, which they did, for dirt cheap because we pump out pills both name brand and generic like there's no tomorrow. I guess my point on that is that being socialist we some how had enough on hand in a buyers market where your capitalist country where money is the driving force was caught with its pants down.
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Sure makes for great comedy!
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lost.rules: It's not that I can't stand anyone. It's that I can't stand bullshit and all of the above shovel it by the truckload. BSB: I could spend all day looking for examples to show you, but I don't have the time or desire to at the moment, maybe later. For the moment I'll just point out an AP- wire article from a while back. In an otherwise totally not politically related article about Bush's DOG (yes, his DOG) they worked in something to the effect of "blah blah blah... playing with his dog... blah blah blah... Bush, who still refuses to pull troops out of Iraq despite the outcry of many Americans... blah blah blah... Bush's dog... blah blah blah." Sorry, that is just an example of totally ridiculous crap. Wanna show a bar graph? Fine. Post results from a poll? Fine. But adding something like that into a totally innocuous article that isn't about the war at all is blatant pushing of the writer's own opinion in an article where it has no place... and it is par for the course for AP. Would it not be out of place to make an offhand remark about Hillary Clinton and Whitewater in an unrelated article? "Today, former first lady and presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton spoke to a group of pre-school students in Butte, Montanta. While reading the students exerpts from "The Little Engine That Could", Clinton, who was accused but avoided formal charges in the Whitewater scandal, took time out to pose for photos with the toddlers, teachers and parents." Anything like that immediately turns me off. And the AP is teeming with that sort thing.
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I support capitalism, but what most of the Bushies support is not capitalism. It's fascism based on plutocracy. It's the state in which the government is largely controlled by a few rich people in positions of power (associated with major corporations, large trust funds, etc.) and those people consider the government in control of the People, rather than it being the other way around as it's supposed to be.
I'm ALL FOR the American Dream, and for capitalism. Capitalism is a good thing, but it is not an excuse for all the evils you wish to support. Ethics have a place in a capitalist system.
It is UNETHICAL for the drug companies to spend BILLIONS of dollars on ad campaigns to tell people to get their optional drugs (Viagra, for example), and then charge people outrageous sums for the drugs they NEED, to make up for that advertising budget. It is UNETHICAL for doctors to make people return to the office many times for something that could be dealt with in one or two trips because they want to keep milking the insurance and/or office visit fees. It is UNETHICAL that everyday, low-cost items are typically TEN TIMES THE COST in a hospital, and are often not covered by your insurance ("Want a Tylenol? Sure. That's $5.00 per pill, and no your family can't just being you a bottle. That's not allowed.")
It is UNETHICAL for the health care system to squeeze every penny out of people with life-threatening illnesses just because they can.
I'm sorry, but doctors are not meant to be rabid capitalists. They're supposed to be humanitarians who choose that career to HELP PEOPLE; Not to get rich. It's supposed to be a noble profession; Not a mercenary field.
If you want to be a rich exploiter of capitalism, then open a store, be a lawyer, invent something, or just work your ass off in your chosen career-- But becoming a doctor or part of the medical field should NOT be about making lots of money. It's ethically wrong in EVERY way. A rich doctor is likely an asshole who doesn't care about his patients. I'd almost rather have a humble person who helps people because they WANT to do it and because it NEEDS to be done, than some asshole who charges me an exorbitant amount so he can go spend it on the golf course or his mansion.
NOBODY who wants a universal health care system is saying that we support socialism, communism, or any 'ism" of any kind. We simply believe that we WORK HARD, PAY TAXES, and DESERVE to have decent health care without being financially drained if an emergency comes along.
We want doctors to DO THEIR JOB and HELP PEOPLE, instead of pimping out drugs we don't need and can't afford, taking kickbacks from the pharmaceutical companies, and supporting the biggest scam in the modern world: "Insurance."
When mobsters offer a service identical to insurance companies, it's illegal. Why? Because it's unethical and exploits people. Insurance companies, however, have lots of money to stuff into the pockets of politicians.
John Edwards is right about one thing: Americans deserve the exact same health care plan as members of Congress. Why should those fat fucks get the best health care, big salaries, and lots of benefits when it's us- The American People- paying their bills? WE ALREADY HAVE A TAX-FUNDED HEALTH PLAN IN AMERICA; It just only applies to Congressmen and government employees. YOU are paying for your congressperson's health care with YOUR taxes.
Why is it OK to do that, but NOT OK to pay for your OWN health care with your taxes?
Conservatives have no answer for that, because none of the pundits told them what to say. -
Hey man, I'm a total liberal and even I know, when it comes to newspapers and the big 3, they're liberal. Fox & talk radio? Conservative. Don't be such an ignoramus, you make the rest of us libs look bad. Biggles, i think that Zero copse said he had "respect" for balls, not a love of balls.
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- I work in the NHS and that is how it describes itself. It's not "free", as in you never pay for it - but you pay out of your taxes the same as everyone and don't get hit up with a huge bill if you need a life saving operation, or get told to fuck off if you can't afford it. For all the problems the NHS has, I'd take it over the US system any day.
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Just to pretend that this is still a calm, reasonable discussion: I think that a lot of you US-based people are saying it would be awful for healthcare to be run 'by government' - in a way that I can understand - but without acknowledging that the actual shift is that treatment decisions in a national health system are made by doctors rather than insurance company suits. If you want to pay for anything in addition to what the doctor recommends, or want to see a different doctor, you are free to (I posted above re. the fact that we have private health insurance available in the UK too, in addition to the NHS safety net which provides a good service to all). When you say that you don't want the 'government' running your healthcare - just realise that in a national system, the doctors are employed (directly) by the government. Why trust them less than insurance company suits? And what about caring about the people around you? I wonder why it doesn't come up that people care that the people they pass in the street should all be covered for health problems - don't you care? It isn't like free chocolate - people don't get sick more when they realise it doesn't cost more.
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Just because I can see bias in the media, doesn't mean that I am parroting Limbaugh and Coulter's "drive by media" nonsense. I can't stand either of them and I think that they (and their ilk) are far to prone to see bias when there is none, just as readily as they are to OVERLOOK bias that IS evident. (They also make level headed conservatives look bad the same way Moore makes level headed liberals look bad) Sorry, I just try and be evenhanded in the news that I take stock in, though I get it from all over. And I'm just as prone to call the AP bias as I am to say that O'Reilly's "no spin zone" is anything BUT.
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This whole deal with Michael Moore trying to portray the healthcare system in Cuba as better than the American system pisses me off! I’m a Cuban-American. I was born and raised here, and I’ve BEEN to Cuba because I was able to get a visa to visit family that I have there (back when that was possible). In Cuba, there are two types of healthcare, the healthcare the TOURISTS (Americans, etc.) receive and the healthcare the citizens of Cuba receive. Let me give you an example… When I was in Cuba, I made the mistake of drinking the water. Needless to say I became very, very sick. I went to the TOURIST hospital because I was an American visitor and I DID receive better care than I would have here – because I was a TOURIST! The hospital was very nice and clean and I received medicine that I probably wouldn’t have gotten here – because I was a TOURIST! Now here’s a different scenario... One of my family members who I was visiting was in the CUBAN hospital at the time - the one for the actual citizens of Cuba. It was a run-down building that looked like it had recently been through demolition. There was shit and dirt everywhere, with broken walls and alleyways and dirty ass water dripping everywhere! The room my cousin was in looked like a damn prison cell and the bed was a freakin’ cot! The place was a slum! That’s the healthcare Cubans receive! So all you Michael Moore lovers who think he’s preaching the truth when he tries to tell you the healthcare system in Cuba is better than ours are a bunch of ignorant sheep! It’s sad when most people in Cuba love our country more than some Americans do, because they realize how lucky we are to have freedom and the opportunity to succeed through capitalism! I'm not saying our healthcare system is great - I think it sucks too! I just don't think socialized healthcare is any better. Handing our healthcare to the government sounds like just trading one problem for another. Do people think the government is going to be more concerned for our well-being than the insurance companies are? My problem is with the idea that Cuba has it better, which is a complete LIE! Go experience the TRUE healthcare system of a communist government that treats its tourists better than its own citizens and I’ll guarantee you’ll realize just how good you have it here in America! Some people are so blinded by their hatred for George Bush that they don't even want to consider the other side of the debate!
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I managed to watch this last night using the wonders of the internet and was hoping their would be some debate about it on AICN. Just to fill you in on what our healthcare system is like - as others have said the NHS isn't perfect and was neglected for many a year but now it's generally pretty good. It's not totally free though - if you work you have to pay National Insurance contributions which vary depending on how much you earn. For me, my wage before tax is about £2,000 a month (US$4,000) and I pay about £90 (US$180) in NI contributions.
I was wondering how this compared to how much you have to pay for your own health insurance in the US? Cheaper? More expensive?
We also have to pay here for dental checks (and thats if you can find an NHS dentist, most are now private dentists but its still affordable - but maybe one of the reason we Brits have "bad teeth" because its one of the few parts of our healthcare we actually have to pay for ourselves). We also have to pay for prescriptions like Moore says in the film, but its a fixed fee regardless of whats in it. I noticed one woman in the film who had to pay something like $130 for something that would cost $10 here.
But other than that - anything major its all provided by the NHS. There are waiting lists if you get referred to a specialist - sometimes it can be months but certainly not if it's anything life threatening. You do hear horror stories about people waiting for too long, so that its too late - but generally the govt targets waiting times as a big priority and they are reducing all the time.
The bottom line is no-one knows when or if something is going to happen, we don't know at what stage in our lives (or with how much money in the bank) we might get into some serious medical trouble. The NHS is available to everyone regardless. Even if you've never worked or ever paid any National Insurance contributions. You might say that this lets the scroungers get away with it again - but you know what? If thats what it takes to mean that next week if I find a lump that needs looking at I can go to my doctor and get some tests and treatment done without worrying for one second about cost - then it has to be a price worth paying.
One thing I would like to challenge is the British doctor in the million dollar house. First of all, he was living in a posh part of London and all houses cost that much there, people are having to take out massive mortgages just to buy ordinary houses. Second, i would say his income is not typical of doctors, probably more than the average, but certainly after 10 years of increases doctors are doing pretty well at the moment here. I should also say that I am a Michael Moore fan, have been since the days of TV Nation on Channel 4 and I think this is back to what he does best - taking on the big corporations to fight for the ordinary people. Regardless of your political persuasions you just have to analyse how ordinary (and often times vulnerable) people are being treated. Tony Benn said it best that democracy is the greatest power we have - as long as the people who are greatly disadvantaged by the system do not rise up at the ballot box to change it then nothing will get done. I also don't think it helps that your political leaders all seem to be millionaires (and I'm looking at John Kerry, Hillary Clinton as well as Dubya here). "Socialised medicine" is not the first stage to communism and the collapse of society - it simply means fairness for all. If thats too dangerous a concept for americans to accept then you'll end up stuck with the system that you deserve. -
Respect or love, Zero is not happy without ballz. And to answer his question about paying for the governments health care and not our own, the answer is not to pay for our own, but to eliminate the government workers health care plan. Then, ZeroCorpse, you'll see some problem sovlin'.
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"You love balls!" -- Great insult. Why not just call me a poopyhead while you're at it?
All you did was underline my point about conservatives being spineless pussies who are so afraid of everything that they need to sling insults to protect themselves. You're just making it clear to everyone that I was right: You ARE bigoted, racist, homophobic, misogynist fuckheads who wouldn't know the first thing about how to be a decent human being if you had a book explaining it.
Fuck you and the dumb bitch you rode in on. -
I went immature for a reason. It seems to be all they understand.
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Arguing with Talkbackers is SO MUCH FUN!
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Yeah. Right. Congress will give up their cushy health plan... Right after they let you buttfuck them.
Of course, that IS what you wanted all along, isn't it? All this latent homosexuality masked by homophobia in your posts makes me believe that you're projecting a wee bit.
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I remember a day when conservatives weren't such fucking pussies. Waaaah the fat man made an imbalanced movie that makes me look like a racist gun-toting closet fag, let's deport him WAAAAAAH. Fuck, didn't you guys used to have balls? No wonder I, as an independent, have no choice but to vote against your cringing, fawning party as it caters to the needs of the lowest common denominator.
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Sorry, man. I was just jerkin yer chain. Relax.
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But I am a full supporter of government provided health care. Now if I can get you over your urge to "buttfuck" congress, we'll be on the same page man!
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For that amount you could just put it in a savings account, and use it if and when necessary. Yes, folks Healthcare in this country is ridiculous. But we shouldn't go the Cuba route. You don't want Healthcare by committe.
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with the option of privatized care as well. Except, if I prefer to utilize private care and want to spend my money in that sector, am I allowed a tax-exemption for the public care? The answer is no. I'm still forced to fund the public system even when I choose to use the private system. Hardly seems fair to me. I have to do that with so much of my taxes already, I don't want to support anything that's going to increase that problem.
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You guys have lost credibility. There is no one else to blame. You allowed America's hegemony to sink like the Titanic while your opponents look like heroes just by bailing some water and pointing nastily at the captain. It's your fault. You have spiralled away from conservative ideology. How can you defend a position of no universal healthcare because of taxation when outsourcing and war spending have already raised our taxes and will destroy our children's finances? How can you be the party of personal choice and responsibility when your leaders favor Christian lobbyists and agendas, when they legislate morality while countless corruption indictments are coming down? It's utterly pathetic that the common conservative doesn't have the spine to turn his back on his party because it no longer IS his party. I used to respect you.
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That's not an endorsement of the Democrats. It's a call to principle.
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How can you look at the faces of the poor children of this country and tell them that "Sorry, you don't have enough money, son.". The only answer is to take away from each according to their means and distribute their wealth to each according to their needs. A government run healthcare system is the only way to treat ALL Americans. (You Rush-loving capitalist!)
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I like the strawman. Unless I said that nothing good ever comes out of Canada. I'm pretty sure I didn't. I really enjoyed SCTV, for example.
Admittedly, I don't spend a great deal of time reading peer reviewed journals, but the folks in Canada are very bright and lots of good stuff comes out of Canada and medical innovation can happen even in socialist systems.Although clearly a tremendous amount of medical innovation happens under our evil capitalist system, too. A huge, ungodly amount of progress happens under our evil capitalist system, actually, and there is plenty of research to indicate that socialized medicine, at best, comes with as many drawbacks as benefits. Although I'm glad its awesome for you, and, of course, what works for you and yours always rocks, so of course we should impose a one-size-fits-all policy on everybody under penalty of law. Because it works well for you, everybody should be forced to use it!
Seems a little illiberal to me, but okay. Yes, that's a little bit of a strawman, too, but what's good for the goose . . .
In regards to the bird flu scare, I'm not proud of the fact that we were looking to buy magic stones to ward off the evil spirts from Canada. I put that up there with Mad Cow disease. More people died from being hit on the head by coconuts in the same time period than died from bird flu. I mean, I understand why there is more concern about a contagious and potentially mutating virus, but still . . . and that wasn't necessarily the only alternative to getting the medicine to help prevent the boogeyman attack, that was just the one decided on by the same Big Government that folks want to put in charge of pretty much every aspect of every day life.
And government mandated low-pricing on pharmaceuticals is to some extent subsidized by the high prices we pay, because that's what pays for research, expansion of manufacturing, building up inventory, while the dirt cheap prices they get to charge (and the fact they spend a billion in R&D and then other companies get to churn out a knock off without shouldering any of the burden of development) might pay for Big Pharmas posty-note supply. A lot of those nifty drugs you get so cheap would not be available to you, if we didn't bend over and grab the ankles for Big Pharma so you can buy dirty-cheap drugs and lecture us about how much better you are than we are, while we're taking it up the ass so you guys get cheap cutting edge medicine. Too bad you can't get the same sort of deal with MRI and other high-priced electronic diagnosis equipment.
BTW, I don't praise our healthcare system. I'm opposed to nickle-and-dime insurance, and think health insurance should be cheap and limited to catastrophic care. For one reason, when everyone uses insurance to pay for every service, it defeats the entire point of insurance, which is that lots of people pay a little so the percentage of people who require catastrophic care can be covered, even though their regular insurance payment is relatively low. When insurance companies pay for everything, costs go up and quality of care generally declines. And then people argue that we need single payer health care, so costs can go up and quality of care can decline.
And money is not always the driving force in our market. Medicare and medicaid have a huge influence on the market, as do certain price caps (we recently had a shortage of flu vaccine, because Clinton-era price caps of the price companies could charge drove most of the companies out of the market). Part of what makes the price caps you enjoy possible is the size of the American market and the outrageous prices we pay. If that goes away, America is not the only country that will be affected. Just food for thought. -
As much as I hate how badly the government has managed the NHS over the last 10 years, and it does have some significant problems, I still wouldn't want to get rid of it. In fact I find the thought of having to pay for health insurance and the chance I'll get shafted and have my claim denied quite scary. The NHS just needs less middle management and consolidated "super hospitals" and it would be fine.
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Try reading my posts before you comment on them, Jackass!
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I'm neither conservative nor liberal, I support Universal Healthcare in America 100%, I watched Sicko because even though I've always been told Michael Moore is a liar I figured the end justifies the means. I figured he'd have enough honest and true evidence to prove a point with this movie. Instead he uses the topic as a way to trash America once more.
The entire "documentary" is nothing more than liberal propaganda. About 20 minutes into it there's a Hillary Clinton campaign commercial, but I didn't let this ruin it for me and kept watching with interest.
Until he went to Cuba. I was born in Cuba, I came to the US and became a citizen 9 years ago and I know that country better than most people who will watch this "film" ever will. I've been to cuban hospitals and I still have family there so I know things have not changed one bit, they've gotten worse.
Yes, technically there is "free" healthcare in Cuba; is it like Michael Moore makes it seem? NOT by far! Cuba has two types of citizens; those who are cuban and those who are not. Cuba is a paradise for tourists and anyone who wasn't born on the island. While it's true that any Cuban can walk into a hospital or Doctor's office and get treatment for free, it's also true and ommited on the "film" that the office is also completely empty of any drugs, the equipment is always broken, and even though the Doctor will see you they can't do anything for you because there's nothing to treat you with.
So where are all these wonderful facilities we see on the film? They are only for foreign patients. There's something in Cuba called "Healthcare Tourism" and essentially it's for people from other countries who come to the island for cheap healthcare. These people don't get free healthcare, they have to pay for it; but the price is significantly less than in any other country in the World. There's plenty of drugs for these people, the equipment is top notch as are the facilities.
Unfortunately regular cubans are forbidden from getting this treatment; even if they had the money to pay for it, the government will not allow them to get this care. So what you get (And this is a true story) is a foreign person getting the best treatment they can get for next to nothing and three doors down from them in the same hospital there's a cuban patient in pain because they are not allowed to use the drugs that are for foreign patients only.
Cuba lives off tourism and every Cuban is a second class citizen; this doesn't exclude healthcare.
Furthermore, healthcare in Cuba (As everything else) is controlled by the government. It is strictly forbidden in Cuba to have any type of cameras in government facilities unless you've had it approved beforehand, they know what you are filming is in no way anti-Castro or anti-communist AND there's someone from the government present at all times.
This means that those people didn't just "walk" into the Hospital; Moore must have had to contact the Cuban government beforehand in order to even come inside the hospital with a camera. The fact that they got the treatment they did only means the Cuban government was in on it which makes this only more propaganda, this time for a foreign government.
I'm not even going to get into the whole charade at the firehouse; that was just another lie setup with the cuban government. By the way, Cuba IS an enemy of the U.S. every Castro speech is full of hate towards the United States. Cuba is not an enemy because we say they are; they are an enemy because Castro himself has declared himself as one. It just happens to be one that we don't give a crap about.
Even though I support Universal Healthcare in the US, even though I'm as outraged as anyone about how stupid it is that a country as great as ours is being bled dry by insurance companies and horrible healthcare I can't support Moore's effort with this film because if the entire last half hour or so of the "film" is a complete and utter lie I can't in principle believe anything else in it. -
That was my first AICN post and I didn't know I had to manually insert HTML tags.
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Than insurance company suits? I wouldn't. I would not trust them exactly the same, because most of the same dynamics that make blanket insurance coverage destructive to medical care in America would remain in force or be amplified by a single payer system or Universal Healthcare. And keep in mind, Hillary Care (the last time universal healthcare was proposed here) really did take control of everything--the government would tell doctors what field they could work in and, in some cases, where they would have to live, would make a lot of private insurance illegal, etc . . . if was just insane. A more reasonable basic-services single-payer healthcare would probably have a better chance of passing. Personally, I think the problem isn't lack of government involvement, it's that the consumer (the patient) is already too far removed from the provider (the doctor). If for everything except catastrophic care people had to pay out of their own pockets, I think medical care would, on the whole, be better. The more layers of bureaucracy that are between patient and doctor, the worse care is. Most of the things people complain about in American health care are a product of mandates from insurance companies and the government (that is, if you a doctor and you want to take medicare and medicaid patients).
However, government healthcare in the US won't be the end of the world. For one thing, we can eat our fruits and vegetables. And Michael Moore can fly off and get his healthcare in a private clinic. And we'll all be happy! -
spent on. I don't support that stuff either. But right now, this is one thing I can try and prevent before it's set. If it becomes a reality, my tax money will go to it, and there won't be anything I can do about it. Until then, I'll verbalize my disapproval of it. Younger people need to study some history. Talk to your parents or grandparents. There was a time years back when the government didn't take care of the poor and sick. PEOPLE did. What do I do when I look in the faces of poor kids who are sick or hungry? I say sorry, kid. You're poor, so I'm going to buy you food or take you to the doctor and pay the bill for that. And if I can't afford your treatment, then I'm going to find someone who can. That's what I do. That's what a lot of people I know do. That, innagoddadavidababy, is how this country should work.
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Jun 25, 2007 10:41:53 AM CDT
I've read the posts and stand by my earlier assertion.
by innagoddadavidababy
You are a capitalist (boo hiss) and, therefore, love Rush. If we, as progressives, can find a way to make your conservative views illegal, then by god, let's make it happen. Fairness Doctrine Now!
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Well, there's a difference between Republicans and conservatives, generally, and a different between registered Republicans and elected Republicans (more obviously). You make some good points, although I think some of them are universal--the party in power always tends to get blamed, and the party out of power always tends to look better just by bailing and water and criticizing with the excuse that criticizing is all they can do; they aren't really in power, after all. Next time the Dems are in the Whitehouse, it may well happen. And the War in Iraq is not conservative, either in principal or execution. Pre-emptive war and nation building are both in opposition to conservative principle, even though many conservatives do support big government when it comes to tax-and-spending on wars, which I'm not a big fan of (I tend to vote against Democrats rather than for Republicans . . . I just end up pulling the lever for Republicans because I'm voting against the Democrats).
That being said, I think incremental universale healthcare will come to pass, but efforts to do everything at once--like Hillary Care--well never make it in this country. Got to pass legislation to pay for a little more here and there. While I don't agree with it, I think it'll work. -
I will choose to depend on my government. It's the answer and you know it. And if I need a ride to the doctors office, dammit someone better pony up ride too! Look into the faces of my poor children and tell me I'm wrong. Look how well Social Security works and tell me that we, as Americans, can't do the same for our medical system! That is all the history I need!
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Over the past five years, Moore's "savings account" has included such evil pharmaceutical and medical companies as Pfizer, Merck, Genzyme, Elan PLC, Eli Lilly, Becton Dickinson, and Boston Scientific. "Being screwed by your HMO and ill-served by pharmaceutical companies is a shared American experience," he recently told the Detroit News ... He may savage HMOs in his film Sicko, but he has also owned shares of Pharmacia Corporation and Tenet Healthcare. He may have liked their price-to-earnings ratio.
...............Don't forget, he also owned stock in Haliburton........The guy is a marketing genius, but he is also a Grade A hypocrite. -
Self-reliant, personally responsible, freedom-loving, enjoying liberty and the pursuit of happiness, even if the government does not take care of us from the cradle to the grave? Sounds all right to me.
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Does he still own? Is he shorting any of those stocks, I wonder? Just curious. There could be more to "Sicko" than meets the eye. When you've got enough of a bully pulpit to affect the market, it can be very profitable to short certain stocks.
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Liberal or not, what a tool you must be. Even if the MSM runs a few critical stories on the administration here and there, that just means they can occasionally actually do their fucking job. Is responsible journalism and truth now considered 'liberal bias'? And check their editorials section. Almost always, the editorials are heavily right-wing.
And if the media is generally liberal-biased, why do almost half of the country *still* believe that Saddam had something to do with 9/11 and that there was a link between Bin Laden and Saddam?
The agenda of the *profit driven* mainstream media is to be a benefit to the bottom line to the corporations that advertise with them. It's well documented news outlets were pressured to go along with the pro-war crowd in the runup to the Iraq invasion- critical, responsible journalism would be bad for ratings. -
Look, no matter what side you are on, having the Government control speech is a bad idea.
Anyone calling for the Fairness Doctrine, really needs to look into what it really does - it starts the process of allowing our Government to control broadcasted speech ie: Thoughts and Ideas.
Did you read 1984? -
...exactly what I've been saying about liberals for years. Whenever they bring up "the childrens", grab yer wallet! Now go worship your god-government.
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Then why do Foriegn Leaders always come the the U.S. for healthcare? Even the Canadian PM came here and Canada has the Health care system Moore is rallying for.
I don't get it. -
Great post... you echoed my earlier post almost exactly (and even more eloquently). Good to know there's more people watching this film and understanding that Moore's depiction of the Cuban healthcare system is an absolute lie. Only those who've seen it for themselves can understand.
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I totally agree with you! That's why I'm behind Sen. Clinton & Sen. Boxer and the Fairness Doctrine (you should too!) Once our party controls the media from a legislative standpoint, we can control the masses (as ignorant as they may be) Sorry if my acknowledgement of any hint of liberal bias in any media threw you off bud! I was being sarcastic. They're all neo-cons!!!
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If you live near me, you can depend on me if you truly need the help. And if you don't live near me, then I hope someone who feels the same as me, will find you and your children. I'm not sure though that I'd use Social Security as a shining example of how well a long-term gov't program works. More than likely, I won't see one penny of what I've put into it when I need it. But that's another talkback for another day.
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He another one of these displanted leaders who strives to show himself as a Western Yeehaw! cowboy representing our version of the red states when he isn't really from their neck of the woods. Or Bush Lite if you will. That said, other than a tummy tuck I seriously question whatever you say he came to you guys for.
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I hadn't even read your post when I posted mine. I just did and your story sounds exactly like my cousin's.
My cousin was born in Cuba and came to Miami when she was 8 or so. She went back to Cuba to visit our remaining family a few years back and fell ill after drinking the water.
The only difference with your story is that even though she's an American Citizen, she was born in Cuba and therefore she was treated like a regular Cuban instead of a tourist. Even though she had the money to be treated as a tourist she wasn't allowed to. Instead she was treated like you described, in inhuman conditions. She had to be flown back to the U.S. as an emergency and treated at South Miami Hospital immediately. Had she spent a day or two more at a Cuban hospital she would have died there from a perfectly treatable disease.
I felt sick when I saw the way Moore depicted Cuba. -
Consider that I may not have had the same priveledged upbringing that you've enjoyed. Consider that when I get up in years, I may not have pot to piss in. I don't need to count on some smarmy feel good Christians to feed me, clothe me, bath me, and transport me. I'm counting on my US government to do it. I don't care how Social Security works. It works! Even if you'll never see much out of it, I'll definitely get more out than I put in. Why? Because I'll probably need it! You probably won't! At least I'm progressive enough to wrap my mind around that! That's why I think the government should take over the health care system, just like France! After all, France has taught the world so much throughout history.
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It's not fair that conservative talk radio gets to reach millions of listeners a week. As fish tacos put it, since half of Americans (it's a valid stat, i looked it up) believe that Sadaam was behind 9-11, talk radio (and Fox News) must be stopped! As long as we can make sure that the Fairness Doctrine only applies to talk radio and Fox News, and not to fair minded newspapers and television networks, I really don't think you'll have anything to worry about. Moore rocks!
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Because the Liberal agenda does not make money in the free market of talk radio, certain politicians want to legislate that, for every Conservative "thought" there has to be a Liberal "thought" to counter it.
If your product fails on the open market, the Government should make a law that states it has to be included, regardless of its failure?
New Coke failed, did Government regulate that markets had to include it, regardless of its failure.... no. It was a failed product.
Move on, create a new product or try another market.
Where does it stop? Just talk radio? What about television? The internet? What about the public square? When does the Government stop regulating thoughts and ideas once it starts?
It's bad legislature no matter your political affilaiation. -
http://www.u pi.com/NewsTrack/Top_News/2007/06/24/feinstein_might_push_for_fairness_doctrine/9684/
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"After all, France has taught the world so much throughout history."
I'm starting to see what's afoot here. Top shelf.
And in the event you're not actually trolling, my upbringing was anything but privileged. -
innagoddadavidababy is being sarcastic!
facetious if you will.
no? -
..he can take his ass to Cuba or Canada and see how well and how quick he gets treated on "socialized medicine". Ungrateful cur.
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Both France and Canada have been beacons of medical and economic breakthroughs throughout history.
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We set up a system where people can opt out of paying for education and medical care for the masses if we can also opt out of paying for defense, police, subsidies for businesses, etc. etc. We'll just go 100% government-a-la-cart. Actually, hang on, while we're doing this we should really give people more choices. Why should one group have a monopoly on government? Instead, we'll let everyone set up their own governments, and people can join the government that appeals to them the most. Then those governments can provide whatever services their customers are willing to pay for. I don't foresee annnny problems with that idea....
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We also have a second option in the UK of private medicine, such as BUPA and the likes so you can avoid waiting lists. Is they're anything in the states like that? or is all medical just what your insurance covers?
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"Instead, we'll let everyone set up their own governments..." That's called "statehood", champ. Opting-in to government cheese and education while opting-out of defense spending, that's called Canada.
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Although a badge of national pride, Canada's health-care system is a growing embarrassment. Canada is now one of only two countries where it is illegal to compete with the government -- the other being North Korea.
Americans are unaware that the distinct and growing trend across Europe is a move away from centralized, government-controlled health care.
In the Netherlands, where health care is a basic public right, the Dutch are reforming, adopting a system of private health insurance. Even Sweden, the mother of all welfare states, has moved toward privatization in an effort to reduce wait times and increase access, in the face of ever-increasing costs.
While the rest of the developed world is seeking privatization and competition, many thought leaders in the United States persist in pinning their hopes on more mandates and more government control of our medical care.
Why is that?
Is the system "broken" as Moore and Hillary tell us, or are they just pushing a Socialist agenda? -
I'd say a Socialist agenda, for certain.
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All I have to say is this: Whether left or right, if you don't agree with what Moore says in this film, you're not a human being. Thank you.
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Current "statehood" depends on where you live. Why should that be? Why should I have to move to Russia if I want a Russian government? Why should I have to leave the US if I don't want the US government? I say, if people don't want to pay for US healthcare or US education or US defense, why should we impose on them? Everyone should be free to have the government they want, why should what everyone else wants be of any interest to them? Why should I have to pay for YOUR education? Why should I have to pay for YOUR defense? People should be able to form their own government on their own property. Isn't that really what we're pushing for here? Socialism is antithetical to personal freedom, so fuck socialist organizations like the military. Give everyone absolute choice over where their money goes, it's the only free way.
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FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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does anyone else here think it's hilarious that a couple months ago AICN was all up in arms about the Captivity billboards saying how wrong it was for children to see it. And now the header for this site is a link to Captivity?
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is socialist a term of abuse, or something to be feared. Other places with "Socialised" healthcare that are also healthy democracies with vibrant economies: UK, France, Germany, Italy, Spain, Japan, Australia, Canada. In fact, pretty much every wealthy democratic first world nation on earth. Its nothing to be feared my american chums.
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As a Canadian, I can say our Health Care and country as a whole isn't all Moore always seems to make it out to be. We do have big waiting lines and pay exorbitant taxes (the average Canadian family earning $76,000/yr pays 49% of that in taxes according to the Fraser Institute. I think Moore may be partially right in that the US health care system does need some big improvement. But fully public? No it seems like the industry primarily needs more moderation by the government, but not full public. That's all I'll say in favor of Moore though. I have my doubts about the reality of what he presents after seeing Bowling and doing some research on it. But this reviewer really did lose it at Cuba - wtf??? I mean Cuba treats its citizens like absolute shit and no doubt what Moore saw was more a PR stunt by the government than anything. Also, why are we acting like Bush is a dictator and then praising Cuba and Fidel? I mean Bush sure ain't great but he's no dictator. He has a lot less power now than before (after the recent elections) and yet Fidel still has about a much power as he has ever had over the last what, 25 years? THAT'S dictatorship. Also, Canada also happens to have been run up until recently for over 12 years by the same government. The corruption that emerged was pretty damn bad. At least in the States you can only have two terms.
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But the issue raised by this movie is not a political one, it is a humanitarian one. Everyone should have access to health care, EVERYONE. My father has a serious heart condition and the amount of money he has to spend on his medication is simply appalling.
The basic function of a government is to protect the welfare of its citizens and the most basic way to do that is to make sure everyone is healthy. Just think about this for a minute, people with insurance now probably pay anywhere from $30-$100 for their coverage, why not take that money and put it toward a social health care system instead. Because it's a tax it's worse than just paying for it. This should get done and hopefully it will in my lifetime. -
I will disagree with you regarding wait times. I'm from Nova Scotia, so maybe that plays a factor but my family and I have Blue cross through work. A little while ago I had a heart pain and was worried, so I went to see my doctor. I was hooked up to wires and put on a treadmill within 24 hours. That's not something that would happen easily in Canada. 2 months easy in my demographic (late 20's). Now on the other hand when I messed up my shoulder severe playing football, I had the same doctor who treated the olympic team perform surgery on my shoulder. So there rarely are favorites in the system. With that said, I've been middle class in both countries. I get great health care through my employer in NY. It is comparable with what I received in Canada. The difference is that if I didn't have this great plan through work it would cost 1100.00 a month (I checked with HR) to buy the same quality of treatment out of my pocket. Whereas in Canada I could be a wino and I'm still going to get taken care of. So I definitely think this movie needs to be made, I do hope Moore tones it down a bit and sticks to the facts.
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Cuba, China, and N. Korea are also socialist, as was the former Soviet Union. Sorry, but I'd rather err on the side of caution and fear socialism.
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"In the Netherlands, where health care is a basic public right, the Dutch are reforming, adopting a system of private health insurance." Well not exactly, that's an over-simplification of our current trend. The way the system works in the Netherlands: You pay taxes - taxes are being spent on health care. Additionally, you have to buy insurance from an insurance company. Therefore, our health care is paid for by taxes + insurance companies. The beauty is you get the best of both worlds: the government controls health care WITH competing companies offering insurances at competing prices. The real dozy is that everyone can afford the basic level of care, while people can also buy additional care from the insurance company. This way, there is no segregation in 'public' and 'private' health care. They flow together. People who want to pay for more coverage don't see their tax money go to waste, it is applied to them equally, with an added bonus from their additional coverage.
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I know this movie probably makes a lot of good points and should be seen by people who want change but on the other hand Michael Moore is a piece of shit who lied and twisted truths on his last movie Fahrenheit 911. Hopefully people saw the counter movie Fahrenhype 911 that exposed him for what he is. Other than that im actually kind of excited to see this.
http://tinyurl.com/pv8do -
2 facts to point out to a few people
The first is several people who said that Sweden is now moving to privatization. That needs a little clarification, what Sweden is doing is trying to get the best of both systems, while maintaing Universal coverage. They have been quite successful at it. The second things is that the key measure of healthcare is results. Meaning what are the long term outcomes. By that measure, the American health care system stinks. It is because no one wants to go to the doctor until it is too late. In other countries, people go early and often an therefore get most things treated soon enough to have better outcomes. All the so-called socialist nations, like Sweden, norway, etc...have much better results. Believe it or not, most doctors in the US are in favor of a single payer system, because the current one is difficult for them to get paid and they are at the mercy of the insurance company. -
FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!! PORNOGRAPHY!!! FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!! GAP!!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!! AMERICA!!!!!! FUCK YEAH!!!!!
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What you just decsribed sounds an awful lot like Medicare and Medicare supplementals. Medicare works pretty well, except for the Rx part of it, and people can buy supplemental insurance inexpensively. I guess we should do away with that too..
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I'm hoping i misread some sarcasm or something in regards to the U.S. spending way more on education then military spending...that's just not accurate dude. FEDERAL dollars towards education pale in comparison to the military spending that is ramped up due to the iraq conflict. I mean if ya just look at the costs to maintain an F-18 or whatever ya know my dry-erase board is fairly cost-efficient.
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Sure our healthcare system here in the US isnt great as far as cost goes, but unfortunately, a free(heavily taxed to make it free) national healthcare system is not going to work. I lived in the UK and witnesses the long waits for their free system. 1.5 year wait to get wisdom teeth removed for example. If it is so great there, why do so many people flock to the pay doctors. Also, why do many of the Canadians come across the border to the US for surgeries, etc. I'm sorry, but in an ideal world, universal health care for everyone would be great, but it just isn't a reality. Call me greedy, but I am not forking over an exorbitant amount of taxes for a system for "free" healthcare. I am already sick of my taxes going towards the people who don't want to work. Maybe Michael Moore should do a welfare expose about the people who refuse to work and instead become tax burdens and unproductive members of society.
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but just who is going to fix it? Should we all try Gitmo and then Cuba? We know our government isn't, so what is Moore's grand solution besides taxing the crap out of the productive people? Make a bunch of more ridiculous laws?
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socialized medicine have a huge population transfer taking place like we do.
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Republicans run campaigns on the platform that government doesn't work- then they get elected and prove it.
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1: When did you live in the UK? It wasn't the 80s was it? 2: No matter how "heavily taxed" people are in the UK and Canada, the US still spends more on Health Care than anyone else. We have *more* bureaucracy and *more* people fighting for a profit, and so we pay *more*, that's just how it is. 3: What is very popular in many countries now, and would be a vast improvement in this one, would be basic medical care provided by the government supplemented with private insurance. It's the best of both worlds, and I see no reason against it. 4: If you're sick of your taxes going to people who "don't want to work", then I'm sick of my taxes going to people who can't defend themselves, let's drop the police, too.
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I'm Canadian and not some rural Canadian I was born in and live in Toronto, the trendiest and best city to live in all of Canada. I moved back to Toronto after 10 years of living in a small city named Barrie. The girls are great there but not much else. I've been back for almost 5 years and I couldn't get a regular doctor. I ended up getting a doctor at a walk in clinic to be my doctor but he was near retirement at teh time and now I have none yet again. I will paint a very clear picture now of the biggest problem with socialized medicine. It reduces quality. Years ago (in the 80's)medical spending started to jump by huge margins. Health Care at the time was provided and run by the province with the federal government chipping in money yearly to cover some of these costs. Once it got to be enough, in that the current tax system could not support we put caps on how much doctors can earn or perform. this started an exodus of our good doctors and med school grads to places like America where they can earn enough money to cover the $60,000 to $80,000 debt incurred to acheive a doctor's education here in Canada. It has become too costly to become a General Practisioner of medicine so we have a shortage of family doctors. I's not impossible to deal with but it can suck hard when the only place you can go is a walk in clinic with 15 other people all waiting anywhere from a half hour to an hour to see a doctor. Socialized medicine does not mean the whole system will fall apart but if you go with a system where only the government pays and there is no private insurance offer, that is when you get problems. Look at Elton John's husband, a gentleman born and bred here in Toronto and he spoke out about Moore's liberal use of the truth in Sicko. People here can end up in a situation critical to their survivial and the only option is go to Buffalo or Detroit to get a doctor capable of seeing you in time. the point is don't addopt what we do exactly, keep what works in your own system because we Canadians and our families also depend on your medical expertise. I rather pay and have good health than pay and have to wait for the vaccine behind 32 million other people with the same claim and right to it as I have.
I am the LeGioNoFZioN,
Cruickshank -
I left the UK about 6 years ago, so no, it was not in the 80's. Sorry zb.brox, but I saw what I talked about first hand. On paper, free healthcare is fantastic, but when you institute it, it does not work as smoothly as you have been brought to think. As far as your sarcastic point about you not wanting your tax dollars going towards police to protect those who cannot themselves, try harder next time for a deep rebuttal. Sorry, but equating unnecessary welfare burdens to the need of police is pretty ignorant.
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I neglected to finish off my anecdote about Elton's husband. He had to pay to get his dad to the States to be seen by a doctor as opposed to waiting the weeks and months average Canadian's wait. Everyone being equal sounds attractive untill its your dad or mom who needs immediate care and any kind of wait is unaaceptable.
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rather than fly out the window to add to a ballooning trade deficit so reliant on foreign investment in the US dollar.
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1: Just asking. My entire extended family lives in the UK, including several of whom are chronically ill, and they're all pretty happy with the system--or, at least, vastly prefer it to the alternative. 2: The principle behind communal defense and communal health care is exactly the same. Please explain to me why we should all pay for defense against criminals, but not against microbes. And try hard not to ignore half of my points and only respond to those you think of you have a snappy response to this time.
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The US debt is *also* about two-thirds of the GDP, so unless the US economy is also crumbling, that's no slam against France.
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I don't understand how us being ranked 27th in the world in health care can possibly be a good thing that doesn't need to be changed... but I don't understand how having a socialized system that will deteriorate an economy (ike in France) and cause people to wait behing millions for a vaccine would be any better. God damn, I am torn on this shit... that's the price I pay for being a moderate.
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Ok, I almost never post to talk backs like this one because simply, they fill up so quickly with liberal and consiverative infighting that no one can actually have a conversation about what the topic is actually about. Which is PUBLIC HEALTH CARE. Now listen up screaming heads because this is the most important thing you will ever hear. WE DON'T NEED PRIVATIZED HEALTHCARE. Our health care system is very good, its just WAY TO EXPENSIVE. Why is that? Insurance company's. And this is the MOST IMPORTANT PART, we need private, regulated medicine and PUBLIC GOVERNMENT SPONCERED INSURANCE. Cheep, fair, efficient government run and subsidized INSURANCE for every man woman and child. People that come in under the poverty line all receive free insurance, the rest pay from their checks. This would create a windfall of cash for the US government and lower taxes, so ALL you sreaming heads would pay less taxes, and have health and preferably car insurance provided as an option by the US GOVERNMENT. Who cares how much the health care actually costs as long as you don't have to pay for it? And if the US government provided the Insurance the drug companies and hospitals exc... would suddenly be worried about defrauding the US government. Can you say more fair costs? AND on AND on. No one will read this, everyone will call each other a commie and both the NeoCons and the Tree Huggers will yell and scream and not pay attention, and that is why you all GET SCREWED in the end. Do you hear me, you tow the party line and don't listen and then wonder why you get screwed. Let me as you one final question, which is harder, totally restructuring a system that rely on physical labor and manipulation of the body's and minds of the entire US populous (Medical Industry) or a entire industry that exists mostly on paper and digitally (insurance)? Hospital's are big places, but Insurance company's are big bank accounts and lots of stamps, the rest is in the mind's/computers of the accountants. Now which industry would be easier to transfer to US government Control?
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the answer most definitely lies in a combo of the both. Having basic health care covered by the state as long as you can opt out and pay exclusivly for your own coverage sounds like the closest to the best of both worlds without compromising your integrity as the foremost bastion against socialism. As long as it is optional and not mandated I doubt it will hurt you much.
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"What you just decsribed sounds an awful lot like Medicare and Medicare supplementals." Perhaps, but the Dutch system really is VERY different (I've read up extensively on your system, and not only 'Moore propaganda'. Here, the government tells the insurance companies what they MUST offer as basic care. Additionally, 'basic' doesn't do it justice - it really is a fully loaded package. A premium package gives you even more dental insurance, acupuncture and the like . All life-saving procedures are covered right off the bat. In the Netherlands, even the poor can have expensive radiation therapy against cancer, and not suffer a dime for it. Can you say the same about Medicare?
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ready to do battle there."
I have no illusions about the Dems, but I do believe this: if the country is to move forward in any positive way, and is to have an ethical, transparent government that protects the constitution and functions FOR THE PEOPLE, you're going to have to lose. See you at the polls, dupe. -
Adam Smith, the author of Wealth of Nations and father of capitalism, felt that health care should be funded by the government and provided for the people, because turning medicine into a profitable enterprise was detrimental to society as a whole. In other words, socialized medicine pre-dates Socialism.
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not when you get a reacharound from Dick Cheney for outing a CIA agent.
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If health care wasn't profiable it wouldn't be as successful. where profits are hampered so to is the quality of the service. Its a necessary evil that health care makes a shitload of money. If there was no money into it -- do you think for a second that you guys would be on the forefront of mdeicine ? Why do so many international doctors love to practise in the states ? why do the best of the best head for yankee land and leave us all out in the cold fighting to find a bloody doctor ? On second thought if you socialized it maybe then we would get some of our doctors back. I'd much prefer it if you had these doctors underpaid and they came flooding into Canada cause then WE would have the good doctors and social medicine can finally work the way it was planned. Yes yes, go about your socialization, because I think there is a good chance Canadians can benefit from it.
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your other points. Yes, our beaurocracy has grown way to large. We have more beaurocracy to pay for those who don't wish to work or feel they are too good to not start at the top of the chain for whatever profession they desire. Because of that, we do have to pay more taxes unnecessarily for these "support" welfare programs. Our healthcare isn't cheap. I like anyone else wish it was, but a big part of it is the malpractice insuance the doctors have to take out themselves because of potential lawsuits for example. I personally don't think doctors are overpaid. I know that is not the kind of job or life I would want, so more power to them making a good chunk of change. All the loans they take out and hours they work, they deserve the pay in my opinion. A basic healthcare system does exist in the US. They are called free clinics. They have one at the hospital down the road from where I work. Sure it isn't the greatest thing since sliced bread, but its still basic health care. I'm not saying that the NHS is the worst thing ever. I'm just saying it is not this pristine thing people want you to believe it is, nor is it worth the amount in taxes people pay for it. All my friends and family there thinks it is "shite" as they would say. They can't believe their taxes pay for what they get. I still am not following your police comparison. So we shouldn't pay for fire departments either or a military?
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"Cuba, China, and N. Korea are also socialist, as was the former Soviet Union. Sorry, but I'd rather err on the side of caution and fear socialism." Oh my god. You just said you 'fear' socialism because at the very end of that side of the political spectrum you see China and communism. That's a gross oversimplification of the world you're living in, my friend. Besides, you seem to forget that the same logic can be applied to the right wing - at the very, very, very end of that side of the political spectrum lies fascism and Hitler's Germany. Now, I'm not calling you fascist (because that’s just stupid), but you just said you fear socialist stances like my own because they lead to communism. Please think about how silly that is. The socialists on this talkback are talking about the notion of giving all cancer patients the treatment they need, without them paying through the nose for it. Please explain what THAT has to do with communism, or being unpatriotic, etc. Furthermore, please explain to me WHY this notion is false. Do you feel impoverished cancer patients should have to sell everything to pay for their cure or just DIE?
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I definitely refuse to pay to see something for a self proclaimed documentary maker like Michael Moore. I am an open minded person, but his "documentaries" are nothing but thinly disguised personal attacks on his subject of the month. Thanks for the review though.
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I think you are also missing the point. It isn't just about universal health care but the sham and corruption that happens from the big business. ok, yes we know. social health care will probably = mediocre healthcare, but people won't be duped out of their insurance. which is one of the biggest bullshit things ever.
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so many doctors go to the US because they can become rich beyond their wildest dreams there - unlike virtually any other country in the world. What happened to becoming a doctor just because you wanted to help people? Other public services (like the police/fire brigade) these people get decent wages but not in the same league as doctors, but their motive in joining is not to get rich it is to perform a civic duty. The same should apply to medical practitioners. Money isn't the be all and end all America! Furthermore to that other bloke - the phrase is "toe the line" not "tow the line"
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Those four words are driving all of you TBers crazy. We're not the greatsest anything, because its a completely bogus category to begin with. We're not living in some Utopian paradise, unable to revel in its delights because evil, duplicitous Liberals are clouding are minds. Similarly, we aren't living in a Totalitarian autocracy with the whip at our backs, praying for an early death and everybody would see it if they'd just tune in, turn on, drop out. We're just a bunch of mostly white, moderately paranoid dickheads with a common language, a mediocre government, and too much time on our hands. That's how its been for 231 years. Could it be better? Yes. Could it be worse? Yes. Will it be either? Probably not. Robert Hughes, Australian art and cultural critic, wrote an awesome book called Culture of Complaint, and one of his main themes is that Americans get split down the middle and disenfranchised so easily because we expect, because of political/historical and religious dogmas, that our nation is supposed to be literally perfect. It says so in the Declaration of Independence. People get upset because they can't find the answers without realizing that there aren't any questions.
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...on lollipop lane! With flowers and rainbows, LOL! It's this kind of craziness, and yes, it is crazy to point to cuba as an example for us to follow - that does real damage to Moore's causes.
I agree that our health care system needs work; but when Moore flat out lies to make a point - this moderate rolls his eyes and says "well, maybe it isn't so bad after all."
End result, big damage to his cause. Far more damage than help. Michael Moore is quite simply, a jack off, and the more he lies - the worse it will get. -
You are a liar. "free health care"? Did you miss the huge portion of money missing from your paycheck? That is what our supposedly 'free health care' costs. I know people who have had heart operations delayed in Toronto because of lack of facilities. I know women who had to go to Buffalo to have children because there were no beds within a three hour drive of Toronto. So don't come here and spout lies about how our Canadian health system is magical.
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...that we, the US, will end up with a dual system of private/gubberment health care. We have the start of that with Medicare/Medicaid and, some would argue, that is what screwed the system up to begin with. However, my family and I will have totally different coverage than the poor schmucks in Detroit. And don't get me wrong, go see Sicko, just wait a few weeks to know what you're walking into. Buying hook-line-and-sinker into Moore's presentation is more of statement of your own ignorance than anything else. His previous movies are evidence of that. (BTW if you want to see what one-party-rule can do to a city, please take a tour of Detroit. Biggles will be happy to guide you!)
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Canada has "a health care system based on humanity" - wrong. It is based solely on spending as little as possible on patient care.
I've never been but everyone who goes to Cuba for vacation brings bottles of aspirin and other assorted medicine to leave as tips for the hotel staff. Why? They're NOT ALLOWED TO BUY MEDICINE at the drug stores.
To the idiots above who 'didn't pay' for their health problems, guess what? You pay at least as much as Americans for health care if not more, through your taxes.
The much-used number of uninsured Americans includes illegal aliens! It also includes anyone who changed jobs and were without health care for even one day between jobs.
Where do Canadian politicians, athletes and rich folk go when they need health care? South. Nobody waits months/years for help when they can pay for real care now. My brother's son was diagnosed autistic and there was a TWO YEAR wait for therapy. Very humane. I was on a 3-month wait for an MRI and any visit to a specialist is booked 4-6 months in advance. -
buy cutting health care and education spending so it can continue to subsidize big business. You can't not finance something and then say it doesn't work. Anyway, now we have a strong dollar and America's economy is in the toilet and everyone's freaking out because apparently we're supposed to exist in a subservient economic relationship with America. At least we still have a social infrastructure. I mean, no cities have been allowed to drown in Canada recently.
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Ideas before people, party before country.
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that the reason for France's economic problems is a direct cause of it having "socialised" healthcare??? Because that just sounds like a really bogus argument to me.
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How are you going to pay for all of this Bobo? Take another 15-25% of peoples pay for new universal healthcare, and then people won't have money for other aspects of their life where it is needed. I'm sorry but I will say it again...We already are paying way too many taxes to make sure those who do not want to work do not have to. I don't want anymore of my taxes going towards this. And yes, I do think that our healthcare system is far from perfect. I have funds taken from my paycheck every week for my insurance and I still seem to get screwed when I visit the doctor money wise. Would I rather lose more of my paycheck to experience things I did with the NHS in Britain...nope.
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Richard Armitage 'outed' Valerie Plame, not a covert agent. On day one of the investigation, everyone involved knew that it was Armitage who first released the name.
Why was nobody charged with outing a covert agent? Because it didn't happen. Asshat.
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Shut the fuck up you cretin. There were congressional hearings where Plame was indeed found to be a covert agent at the time of her outing.
Oh, and the reason why nobody was charged with outing a covert agent? Because Libby obstructed justice, dumbfuck! -
How about laying off the bullshit sloganeering and name calling and join the real debate? You sound like an Anti-Flag t-shirt.
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i watched the pirate version of this and all you can see is an outline that looks like Galactus' helmet from the comics.
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first Phantom Einstein -- to address what you said -- they did cut spending but not to support business as much as to alleviate our debt which (admittedly under the conservatives) soared in ways it shouldn't. In short the Liberals recognized a problem and engaged it as best as possible. Next Haitu I don't miss the point of the scam of insurance companies I am well aware, but if proving that point means highlighting the Candian system then something is substantially wrong in the argument since we are a very poor example. If we go to you for health care then our own can not be as good. It's only logical. Your system needs work, but not to the point of aping our own. Next to Cedar_room -- money shouldn't be the end all and be all of it -- but it is a basic and unremoveable factor. You only have good doctors because they can be paid more in your country than elsewhere. If you remove the element of getting paid well then you will no longer have those doctors. At least not for long. Simple economics. If it costs $350 000 a year to run a GP office you are going to do that where you can make the most money. Why would you intentionally go somewhere where you are paid less for work when the work load and everything else is virtually the same ? Never ignore the human element. Becomming a doctor costs a lot more than the vast majority of other professions and as such they are compensated fairly for the most part (at least in America).
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My cousin is a general practitioner who refuses to deal with the insurance companies. He provides good, personal medical assistance for the local community, at a reasonable rate. Anyway, I had first-hand experience with the insurance crap. I had what turned out to be an anxiety attack a few years ago (Read: Too much caffeine, and a hangover from a party). After $10,000 worth of tests (yeah, my doctor was getting kickbacks from the testing facility, co-owned by the clinic), it was determined nothing was really wrong with me - heart and brain....great. Unfortunately, my COBRA on my insurance ran out, and I was declined by THREE companies because I had those damn tests, EVEN THOUGH THEY SHOWED NOTHING WRONG. I am now paying "high risk" insurance, coordinated through the state government, at FOUR times the standard rate. (It's Blue Cross.) Actually, for minor emergencies (stitches and such), I've had great experiences at a local doc-in-the-box. Many of us have spent years in the production industry as self-employed workers, so we can't depend on insurance plans being provided. I've paid about $4000/year for insurance the past three years, with a lousy deductible, and not a single claim on my part. I've been told I'm labeled for life, and must find a corporate job with a good insurance - being that I'm 45. I was hoping "Sicko" would expose the insurance companies the same way "60 Minutes" lambasted Sallie Mae a few years back.
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Jeez, every time I watch Channel 7, Kwame is busted stealing from the City of Detroit. That sad part about that is that he was busted in his first term and then got reelected!
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Reality has a well-known liberal bias. Damned liberal reality.
"Bias". That word, I do not think it means what you think it means. -
Cuba is in hell because we shoved them into it and locked the door. We put the prisoner in the dungeon and then blame him for not taking care of his vitamin D deficiency. Let the embargo die, let them be free. You know, free? Let's have a real competition between systems, not one on our terms that literally starves them for trade.
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Bullshit AICN is liberal!
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Jack Parsons, how is the US embargo hurting Cuba? If I remember correctly all other countries trade with them. Cuba is hurting because they are holding onto the Communist ways. Cuba used to be a thriving place, but Castro and his goons kept it down with their socialistic ways. I'm sure the other big trade nations could have made Cuba a great place had Castro let them. Sorry, but you can't blame the US on Cuba's condition. I'm sure Michael Moore was given the grand tour when he was there...probably had tea with Castro and a visiting Chavez.
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...he tries to represent the gangsta politician that Coleman Young made an institution back in the 70's and 80's. And sorry to say, Detroiters buy it. Doesn't matter what he does. The mentality is, "If "whitey" doesn't like him, it's all-right wit me!" At least Coleman young would have told Channel 7 to "fuck-off-I'm-ruining-a-city" by now. How's the Windsor Ballet? Haven't seen it in years.
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Loved the "Princess Bride", too.
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Cuba trades with the entire World (Including American Companies). If you go to the tourist-only supermarkets in Cuba you will find them as well stocked as any American Supermarket with products that go from Coca-Cola and Pepsi to Tylenol and Advil.
The cuban embargo; has not been an issue when it comes to importing and exporting. The only reason Cubans don't have anything is Fidel Castro and his Communist regime.
It has already been stated many time on this talkback that in Cuba tourists/foreigners have everything you can find in the U.S. from products to services. The citizens live like animals because the government wants it that way
A cuban economist in Miami explained why. When you don't have anything, you are forced to spend your entire day from the moment you wake up to the moment you go to sleep trying to survive by finding food, clothing and medicine through any means. Cubans are so busy surviving that they have no time to think, plot, or try to topple the dictatorship. Scarcity is nothing more than another way of oppressing the people and keeping the officials in power. -
something about Michael Moore rubs me the wrong way. I am against the war (although I am against just putting in some random timetables for withdrawl which many people on the left want and a thought out exit strategy is needed) and I think there is a need for health care reform (although probably not nearly as radically as Moore wants), but I do have to admit find a lot of Moore's documentary still although there are parts that are a little offsetting. I do think he twists the truth to prove his point. A great example of this is evidence in Farenheit 911 that the Bush admistration through the Fox Network swayed the election. He uses evidence that Fox was the first one who awarded Florida as a huge reason he won as if Fox was the only one declaring a winner in Florida before everyone else. The reality is Fox was the one of the last (if not the last) major network to declare a winner in Florida and ABC awared Florida to Gore before the polls closed in the Panhandle (because of timezone difference, the polls in the Panhandle closes an hour after the rest of Florida). Also, I think he is way over the top with shock journalism which he denounces with regards to news outlets (one of his major arguements in Bowling for Columbine). Although I agree with many of his points of gun control, I felt his interview with Charleton Heston in Bowling for Columbine was the worst kind of journalism. There was little difference in my mind with what he did to Heston than some of the stalkerazzi getting into stars faces in Hollywood. In fact, he made Heston into a sympathetic person (even my most liberal friends felt sorry for Heston after watching Bowling for Columbine). Lastly, I felt he sold out his own ideals to get Bush out of office in 2004. He was the same guy who said "Thank you for Bill Clinton" because he showed the world that the Democrats are as much of money grubbing whores as Republicans and then stumped for John Kerry and talking how he felt Kerry was really a great man and well suited for the office. Again, I do think Moore is on the right side of many of his arguements, he is an admitted Socialist so he goes much farther than my moderate views. But I do think he does open himself up for attack and some of it deserved because of his style of reporting.
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Again! We never see this sucker except when AICN is posting something that goes against his revisionist ideas. Loved his 'sick euro ' fairy tales though. I said it before and i'll say it again: do some travelling. go to europe, then you'll realise you are living in a cultural and economical wasteland. Man, can someone give this guy an education? please?
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Maybe it's Anchorite should try and not meet eyes with Bobo_Vision. You never know what might set one of those street-crazies off!
Just an observation. -
You call yourself Windowlicker and you're the one giving someone an "education"? I've been to Europe. I've travelled a lot. And I don't think there's much question that Anchorite is basically right on the issue, name-calling aside. And I can make that statement, because I've been to Europe and listen to the BBC.
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I've lived and travelled all over Europe. There are some beautiful places out there for sure, but in no way did it make America seem like a cultural and economic wasteland. Taking a vacation a couple times to Europe, unfortunately, does not give a real perspective on how a country really is. You are a tourist. You are seeing established tourist things. You are not working and making a living in that country. You are not paying anything more than the VAT tax. It would be like a German person thinking America is greatest place on earth because they stayed a week in Orlando at the Disney resort. Every country has its faults, but deep, faults like we are discussing are not made apparent through a vacation. Sorry Windowlicker74, but European countries are not made of gold and they have just as many problems as the US has. No matter where I have lived or traveled(no matter how beautiful), when it comes down to it, I never found a place that can beat America overall.
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He has a few essays on the internet and also wrote a VERY insightful book called "While Europe Slept". Bawer is a gay, moderate liberal who went to live abroad thinking things would be better for him socially and culturally. He found that he was SORELY mistaken. Look him up.
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Kevinwillis: not knowing Windowlicker( or Chris Cunningham for that matter) shows your lack of education..sorry. top 10 best places to live are still in Europe, so Anchorite is basically very wrong about the issue. Are you new here? Anchorite is not just your average godfearing right wing lunatic, he's way beyond that...
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Nice argument. Sheesh.
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You win! Heh.
I hope you enjoyed this, my similarly awesome rebuttal.On this issue, Anchorite is not only basically factually correct (and suggests he has the real world experience to give his analysis more credibility than, say, Bobo_Vision or, heck, me), but he's been more reasoned and civil and engaged in his posts during this particular discussion than many of the folks expressing their disagreement. -
about the US: i'll take back the economical wasteland, but it is just boring as hell. The coasts are very cool, i love NY. but what is it with this big landmass in between? example: Phoenix, like the 6th biggest US city? we drove for hours, there weren't any bars, things to do in general.. And why is everything closed after 2am? these were all ghosttowns at night... and what's your obsession with cars and malls?? oh god those malls... and then the food, don't get me started on that. I mean we have mc donalds too, but what I saw was a fucking nightmare. Basically every town, small or big is just the same. You're right about this tourist thing though. I'm recalling my first USA trip now. I went back there a couple of times afterwards and I got accustomed to it.. so yeah, i guess there's no place like home....ps: I don't think your average German will call an Orlando Disney resort 'paradise'
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is its NIGHTLIFE? That's just super! And we're also way way way bigger than any country in Europe. If any European country was as large as the US, you'd see a much bigger divide in the areas in between the major Metropolises. What a pointless stance in the argument.
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that what i meant when i said you were new here: Anchorite always has real world experience to back his posts. thats what's so cool about him: when you are discussing the Middle east, he's been living there for 10 years. when you're discussing medicine , he's a doctor. you talking military? he's Napoleon. ain't that neat?
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If you are referring to the guy who moved to the Netherlands to be with his lover, he was concerned about the increasing tolerance for intolerance in Europe. Specifically, increasing numbers of Muslims were moving into the country and trying to enforce their conservative views.
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How anyone can argue against socialized (or substantially socialized medicine) is beyond me. The US healthcare system is one of the lowest in the Western world and one of the very few (the only?) to be primarily private in nature.
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Wow. Moore's a funny guy, anybody see TV Naaation! It was sweet.
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we all remember your political rantings in previous boards on this site, so don't get al innocent on me. ' a far greater man than I'..? ..sigh.. no comment. about the system of socialized medicine: it just works. sorry. we pay more taxes but i have NEVER experienced stuff like waiting lists or bad treatment.(I'm talking Belgium here)
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all together. Fuck it! Survival of the fittest, if you can't fix it yourself you die MOTHA FUCKA! Yeah, that would be cool, I'm gonna hold up in my mountain loft with shot gun and a pile of penicillin. Bring it you anti-american fucks! I KNOW KARA-TE MUDDA FUGGAS,YEAH!
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with money come to our shore. That's the problem, america's healthcare is good for the rich, but for the plebs, not so. It can be frustrating and feel like quicksand financially.
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he lived there his whole life. Loved the 'carnal-anal inversion' though.. you 're finally getting up to speed! away with the holier than thou attitude. i like it.
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...so I can keep on danc'n. Dance,Dance, Dance!
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I'm glad Belgium has awesome socialized medicine that "just works" for you, Licky Window. I'm not sure a one-size-fits-all approach applies to every country (like Democracy in the middle east!), and I expect socialized medicine in America to be an insanely expensive boondoggle with nasty consequences to our healthcare system. No magic pixie dust in the government coffers--thenm's people with various agendas, just like the doctors and insurance companies.
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how we should solve our health care problem. He says national health insurance isn't the answer, and Republicans have had such a great track record... they were right on the money about the Iraq war, for example.
Today the Supreme Court voted 5-4 against the free speech of those College kids' 'Bong hits 4 Jesus' banner. The 4 more liberal judges voted for their freedom to display the banner. See, that's interesting because the Republicans are usually the fuckwads who vote against personal freedoms issues like this... oh wait -
I'm guessing you haven't seen it?
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I quoth..."I say sorry, kid. You're poor, so I'm going to buy you food or take you to the doctor and pay the bill for that. And if I can't afford your treatment, then I'm going to find someone who can. That's what I do. That's what a lot of people I know do. That, innagoddadavidababy, is how this country should work." Yeah, that's exactly what's gonna happen--everyone runs around paying other people's hospital bills who can't afford it or finding someone who can (!) and spreading hugs and chocolates and rainbow cheer everywhere. Yay! Hey, I think it should work that way too but COME ON. Effectively what you're doing is saying we should all just wait under our current health system until that sunny day when everyone starts being so nice to each other in a land of communal sharing for the common good. That kind of doe-eyed idealism will be our doom.
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I never said our groundbreaking system would work in your country. i mean, there's a lot that doesn't work overthere. A good question for Anchorite maybe, with his medical background and all
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This is why nothing works in this country. Everyone takes the most complicated idea that will work out the least and decides to argue about it OVER and OVER. The biggest problem facing America today is simply that the government taxes for services, but has nothing to really provide that is a tangable common reminder that the government is there to help. Insurance companies make SO much money. Why cant the government provide insurance at a much lower price, comparative to the income of a person. Keep the medical institutions private, and publicize the actual problem. Do you realize what how huge the amount of money would be generated by this service. Do you realize even when treating people fairly and with respect how much personal insurance can bring in as a profit margin? How much less we would all pay in taxes? How little people would get ripped off by heartless Insurance companies trying to screw people. But no one ever cares about this. Its just "Lets fuck up a great medical system" or "Fuck people that cant afford the system." Make it affordable by having it as an option on your tax form. Basic, Basic Plus. And businesses could co-pay. Think of the strain lifted off of business having to pay 600 a week for every employee. There is so much more that could be done with government provided INSURANCE that just cant be done with a public medical program. Keep hospitals private, doctors well paid and just pimp out the system to get insurance. If ANY of you are not political pendents and lobbyists you should think of this. Especially because it would do nothing but solve every problem we have. Isn't that the point. Take a useless middleman buisness created to milk the public and turn it into a public works first strikes. Everyone buys insurance from the governement, and in return the government uses the money to make sure your healthy, fit, happy, well fed and educated. Wow, what an idea. And because its government insurance, the idea would to keep everyone healthy as LONG AS POSIBLE so they can keep paying for their GOVERNMENT insurance. The more people, the more profit. Its worth healing the people, cause then they can pay you for the rest of their lives.
DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Nobody was charged with outing Plame. That means there was no crime. Libby was convicted for obstruction, but not for the separate crime of outing. Why? Because he didn't out a covert agent.
I'll rephrase it for you: Richard Armitage gave Plame's name to reporters first. If anyone committed that crime, it was Armitage and not Libby.
At no point did any congressional body determine that Plame was 'covert' as a defined status.
Facts are pesky things. -
...and really don't understand how the people in a wealthy country such as the U.S. can put up with this.
Anyway, after seeing this movie, I have a much higher opinion of the health care system here in Germany and I am thankful for what I took for granted up to now. To be honest, i was a bit shocked to hear of people dying because of denied treatment. Something like that would be in the news for at least a week over here... -
Do NOT confuse public insurance with Public health care. One is not the same as the other. Public insurance is a Provider of insurance, aka you pay in every month and if you have a accident they pay your bills. Public health care is the government running public hospitals and public health care practices and taxing everyone to run those places. This would take tons of work and would have the government regulate where and when and how doctors work. Own the hospitals and decide how to fund the institutions THEMSELVES. This is foolish. The smart thing for the US government to do is to get into Money Management of Insurance, a business that, frankly, cant loose. Plus, with the government footing the bill for the insurance, otrageous things like medicine and drugs would get capped. Thats not to say they wouldn't make an outragous amount of money. Just not as an outgagous amount because our government would be looking out for their best interest.
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You sound a little confused there- I'm not sure where you were going with the 'Libby was charged with obstruction, not the leak' stuff. Was that in question? And just because nobody was charged does not mean there was no crime. Think hard now: Libby OBSTRUCTED the investigation which would have, without his obstruction, led to charges.
Truth is a pesky thing. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18924679/ -
Hey 7, remember when 15,000 old people died from the heat a few summers ago in France? That story barely lasted a week. They cared about their August vacations more than their parents/grandparents.
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Everyone complains about the US (the Bush administration mostly) taking away civil rights, crushing dissent etc etc. Have you ever checked into a European hotel? You have to leave your passport at the front desk in a lot of places. Look up next time you're downtown in a european city, chances are there's a security camera watching you. In England they're on almost every corner, listening in as well as watching. Freedom of speech? Hardly, you can be charged for insulting islam.
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Sent this in and it didn’t get run (probably too long and drunk and rambling and DVD download), so here on the talkbacks it is. Very heavy spoilers, almost scene by scene, so all you obsessive-compulsives, enjoy:
Alrighty then, here’s the deal: A DVD rip of Micheal Moore’s new movie “Sicko” has hit the Intraweb on them torrent sites a solid 3 weeks before its theatrical release. So here’s a review, even though AICN has been, strangely, somewhat hesitant to run illicit download reviews. Also, I’m Canadian and the subject matter of “How American Health Care Sucks” doesn’t resonate with me as much. Also, I’m somewhat intoxicated as I write this. So that’s 3 strikes against me. But, what the hell, lets go for it.
Is “Sicko” Moore’s best movie? Nah, not really. First of all, it doesn’t tap into the cultural zeitgeist like “Bowling For Columbine” did (his best movie, IMHO), and it doesn’t have the visceral “This Is Happening Right Now” immediacy of “Fahrenheit 9/11”, and it doesn’t have the plucky little-guy-vs.-big-guy spirit of “Roger And Me”. But “Sicko” isn’t a bad movie, its main drawback is that its just kinda dry. And it has this weird tone where you bounce around between “Oh, this is so tragic” and “Wow, its Michael Moore, globetrotter!” and “How Can We Forget The Heroes of Sept. 11”.
At least its better than “Canadian Bacon”. But, hell, even “At World’s End” is better than “Canadian Bacon”. As for “Sicko”, it’s a mixed bag of idealism, manipulation, patriotism, jealousy, pure Velveeta, some very funny moments and really slick editing. For Moore, it’s a lesser entry, but as far as summer movies go, its one of the more higher-minded you can view. Better than going to see “Shrek the Third”, at least.
“Sicko”’s first shot is funny, if somewhat predicable, with Moore favourite target, Dubbya, flubbing a reference to OGBYNs. But, this movie isn’t Bash Bush-Fest Part 2, (even though Moore gets a few shots in), its about the prevailing culture of medical care in the U.S., and how people are treated as numbers in a bank account, and then contrasts the US attitude with health care across the rest of the globe. The overall vibe is, “Why the fuck is this happening to us when other countries can pull it off?” But, there are no answers provided, merely pointing out what’s wrong.
To be honest, movie starts off rather ploddingly, with people relating how they’ve been screwed over by the health care system. The opening scene is some poor dude sewing up his leg on his own cause he doesn’t have heath care. That part is actually very effective and gross-out. Then Moore goes along to 3 other people, relating their experiences. Its involving, but it doesn’t pop like “Bowling” opening with Moore buying a gun at a bank. That was grab-you-by-the-throat documentary style. Aside from the voiceover, Moore isn’t even in “Sicko” at all in these opening scenes. Its kinda shocking ‘cause, after all the press and the way he’s be built up in the media over these past few years, you’d expect it to open up with him talking to the camera, going “Hiya Folks, here’s me movie!!!”
However, after seeing 3 people talking about how they were screwed over by lack of health care in the opening, the movie then moves onto… more stories of people getting screwed over by health care. This goes on for almost 30 minutes. Now, I have a heart that beats and bleeds for my fellow man. This heart will feel for about 20 minutes of Moore playing variations of “Damnation, our health care sucks!” ‘till I starts gettin’ testy. There’s even a closeup of children sobbing as their daddy is shipped off do plumbing work in Iraq. That’s laying it on a tad thick. Now, yes, these are real people, but this is also a movie. The point can be made inside of 15 min or so. We get it. Move along.
Actually, when the movie kicked off, I was afraid this was going to be Serious Moore, something that made “Fahrenheit” a lot less fun than its predecessor. What made “Bowling” so good is that, even though it hit you with some gut-punchers every once in awhile, the movie was still funny and zipped along at a brisk pace. “Sicko” is a hellova lot sadder. Things move a slower as Moore dwells upon individual stories. But if you, like, care about people and stuff, this’ll work.
Just when you think the movie will end up being 2 hours of people crying about their bad health care (I don’t care how sympathetic you are, 2 hours of it would become Documentary Torture Porn), things start to pick up when Moore stops trying to tug at our hearts and settles into smarmy-yet-funny-professor mode (the overall tone of “Bowling For Columbine”). He goes back to the beginning of the U.S. health care mess, dredging up some barely listenable (thankfully, there’s subtitles) audio tape of Richard Millhouse Nixon creating this whole medical care mess.
After that little history lesson, Moore does his usual entertaining bit of splicing together footage of congress and speeches for laughs. There’s an awesome beat when Moore grabs a snippet of a Republican candidate pushing for his health care agenda by crying about how much he loves his mother. Underneath this, a slow melancholy piano line of “America The Beautiful” plays. Really funny stuff. This is Moore at his best, as an editor, picking apart talking heads to turn to show their half-assed rhetoric as rubbish.
Things do get a tad wonky in this section. Moore shows Hillary Clinton, when she was a newly appointed First Lady, working diligently to fix the health care system. This is a weird moment because, I was thinking, “Oh, look, Michael Moore has chosen Hillary Clinton for ’08….Here’s why. How… nice.” HOWEVER, he pulls the rug out from under you about 3 minutes later, strongly implying that Hillary Clinton was bought off by health care lobbyists years later to the tune of about 800 grand. That’s kinda surprising. So much for official endorsements.
There’s a running theme in the film when Moore shows how various media pundits in the Sates (beginning with a snippet of a record narrated by Ronald Regan in the 50s) bring up the spectre of socialism and communism whenever universal health care is mentioned. Moore does skewer these Red Menace conventions with a lot of glee. The best bit is when he, rather randomly, cuts into what looks like an old Soviet propaganda reel about workers ploughing grain and wheat fields. Its pretty fucked.
When Moore goes to Canada (once again), to show off the Canadian health care, he paints the picture a tad too rosy. I’ve had experience with the Canadian health care system, and it ain’t as speedy and efficient as Moore would have you believe. But the core point he’s trying to make still remains – paying for health care sucks, and dying because you can’t afford it sucks even more. Since we’re all people, we should all get it, and its better than the alternative of, you know, fucking dying.
Anyway, the Canadian section starts off pretty awesome with an American single mother hauling ass for North of the Border so she can get some free health care. As it turns out, its illegal so the Canucks call the Fuzz, which leads to the film’s biggest laugh with Moore narrating, “Yes, what Adrian was doing was illegal. But we’re Americans. We go into other countries when we need too.”
Then the movie goes international, and things become considerably more zippy than the total downer tone of the film’s opening. After showing a dude practically snapping his arm in half as he tries to handstand across Abbey Road (The most “Jackass”-style moment in the movie), Moore globe-trots to Britain to show off their hospitals (they have cashiers that dole out cash to people who need cab rides!). But he lollygags a bit too long on the British stuff, and even compares 9/11 to post-WWII Britain. His voicever in this bit is particularly gag-inducing when he drones, “Remember how we all felt after 9/11? How we all pulled together?” Ugh.
Also, the interviews in Britain are somewhat dry. Whenever I see an elderly British gentleman talking rather proper, such as in “Sicko”, I get flashbacks to those gawdawful “Lord Of the Rings Extended Edition” documentaries and zone out. This British dude even drops the old “1% of people in the world own 80% of the world’s wealth” chestnut. Yeah, I haven’t heard that one before. Still, there is a funny bit when its pointed out that a doctor working for a socialized health care system in Britain is drowning in Bling Bling (the shot of British doctor’s pimped out car whilst some sick rap beats play is hilarious).
Things then shift back to the States, where Moore does a rather lacerating dissection of the myth of the American Dream (complete with a Dr. Evil style “Muha-ha-ha-ha!!” laugh), and its one of the film’s strongest moments. Then we get another scene of a mother in America relating her tragic story about the death of a loved one at the hands of an uncaring heath care system. But, instead of the repetitive tone of the earlier scenes, this one hits harder because we’ve been treated to all the hunky-dory health care across the pond, so the ire is raised.
Then Moore ventures deep into enemy territory: France. He nicely sends up the “All French Are Assholes” stereotype by having a scene of a French doctor politely disagreeing about the setup of American health care. (“He could barely contain his seething anti-Americanism,” Moore dryly intones.) And Moore goes on a cab ride with a French doctor doing door-to-door care. The music and editing during this ride is appropriately wacky, with Moore quipping, “So, if its just a stomach ache, why are we going so fast?”
At times, Moore seems to be selling his incredulity about the awesomeness of the French social system a bit too hard. But there’s some great editing where he cuts from a boisterous conversation about how the French have all these benefits. He jokingly asks, “Do they have people come and do your laundry for you?” Cut to a quiet scene of someone doing laundry with Moore watching them, seemingly amazed that the French government would provide such a mundane service (“Are you with the government?” Moore deadpans). He brings up how the French must be drowning in taxes for all these perks, so he visits an “average middle class family”. That bit felt the most disingenuous of the entire film. “Average Middle Class”. Sure. Right. I buy that. Anyway, the point is he’s bringing up a romantic view of French life…
…then he lowers the hammer, showing sick U.S. citizens being deposited at shelters because they don’t have money for medical care. “Is this what we’ve become?” Moore asks. “A nation that dumps its citizens on the side of the curb like so much garbage because they can’t pay their hospital bill?” This is when it hits you. By buttering you up with the international scene, it makes the domestic situation unpalatable. Its crushingly effective. Best scene in the movie, by far. Powerful stuff.
Unfortunately, the next bit falls flat because Moore dips into the 9/11 bag, showing how WTC site workers (mostly volunteers) were screwed over by uncaring health care conglomerates. This falls apart because Moore twisting post-9/11 patriotism on its head seems like an easy way to play to the masses. It’s the cinematic equivalent of showing a close-up of a sad-looking puppy. There’s also violins playing in the background. Yeesh.
Maybe its just because how lame Oliver Stone’s “World Trade Centre” was, but hitting 9/11 notes feels played out. However, there’s nice twist when Moore points out how Gitmo “enemy combatant” prisoners are getting better medical care than U.S. citizens. “Wow,” he narrates, “so there was one place on American soil that had free, universal health care.” Very darkly amusing.
This leads into the big finale where Moore loads up boatloads of ailing Americans and carts them off to Cuba for some free medical attention. The way Moore piles them onto the boat while stirring, Michael Bay-ish music soars, and how he yells “WHICH WAY TO GUANTANAMO BAY?” to the passing coast guard is pretty freakin’ funny. (lets see a shot like that in “Transformers”, Bay! HAH!) . Its quite droll, especially when the film cuts away to a title card explaining how U.S. homeland security can’t reveal how Moore arrived at their destination, and then it cuts back to everyone gawking at a big sign welcoming them to Cuba.
So they arrive by boat at Gitmo (“These are 9/11 rescue workers,” Moore asks. Through a bullhorn. “They just want some medical attention. The same that al-Qaeda is getting.”), are ignored by the U.S. Army, and, instead, they all get treated with open arms in Cuba by Cuban doctors.
The final scenes in Cuba are a mixed bag. The Americans getting treatment is actually rather affecting (and the music is nicely subdued yet uplifting), finding out that one person needs inhalers that cost $150 in the States and .05 cents is appropriately stunning, and things for our health impaired heroes seem relatively peachy keen. But when the 9/11 rescue workers go off to meet the Cuban firefighters, who want to honour them because of their work done on that fateful day, it comes off cold. Once again you can only throw 9/11 at us till it just becomes a numbing wall of noise. Yes, Moore is shrewdly co-opting the conservative rallying point of September the 11th, but even taken from the other side, it doesn’t have the same impact as it once did. By now, just saying “9/11” isn’t inspiring, its just predictable.
The very end of the film twists unexpectedly and nicely when Moore finds out that the guy who ran MooreWatch.dot.com is has to shut down the site because his wife is sick. So Moore cuts him a cheque for medical coverage. But it seems like grandstanding. “Hey, look, Moore is such a good guy he’ll hold his hand out to Moore-watch guy who hates him.” Yep, quite the Saint that Michael Moore is. Cough. Lame. But, at the very end, Moore does some good work where he wraps up all the threads into a final montage. Good note to go out on, and not the sour ones the last two scenes showed.
On the very busy weekend of June 29th, there’s “Sicko”, “Ratatollie” (or however the hell you spell/pronounce it) and “Live Free or Die Hard”. On the plus side, “Live Free Or Die Hard” looks good mostly because it has Mary Elizabeth Winestead in it and she is jaw-droppingly gorgeous. Also I’m sure shit will blow up in it. However, it has that douche from the Mac ads as the sidekick. Or, on the 29th, you could go see “Ratatoole” (or however the hell you spell/pronounce it). Yes, Brad Bird directed it and he made “The Incredibles”, which is maybe the best Superhero movie of all time, but, come on, its about a rat that’s a goddamned pastry chef. What the fuck is that? Also, “Cars” stunk.
Anyway, don’t let the ton of product out on that weekend deter you from watching “Sicko”, because this is good documentary filmmaking, its always informative and somewhat sobering to see how people live and deal with sickness (something that’ll come to all of us eventually …. even YOU!!!!) , and Moore can wring a few chuckles and even tug at the heartstrings of the most conservative of viewers. And the way he trips across the world to show how great everybody else has it, and the unrestrained glee of these scenes, is sure to raise a few eyebrows.
If anything, this movie shows that he’s still damn good at editing. There is a scene, early on, where a health care worker breaks down recounting how she turned down a happy couple for insurance, and just subtly handled bits of directorial work – slowly zooming in, cutting to a close of her – is stronger than a billion 9/11 firefighters wiping tears away from their eyes. And there’re tons of little moments where the emotional or humorous impact is heightened because of Moore’s editorial skill. This ain’t great because its politically motivated, its great because its good documentary filmmaking.
In summation, “Sicko” is enlightening and provides laughs (there’s an awesome Star Wars Title Crawl gag early on), but it feels like a bit of a placeholder for Moore until he makes another movie. This is the most humanist of Moore’s films so far, but not the most entertaining. The overall vibe at the end is a bit too “Touched By An Angel” except instead of Delta Reese, its Michael Moore who saves the unwashed masses. Also the wacky traveller bits clash horribly with heartwrenching stories of people dying (But this is trademark of his style, so there’s not much use complaining this time around).
His movies have subsequently upped their game and rhetoric each instalment, but this one is Moore toned down. He doesn’t seem as pissed off in this one. Just kind of bummed and aghast. Strangely, Moore’s least politicized and human film in “Sicko” turns out to be somewhat defanged of righteous ire. For a movie about health care, its tone is appropriately clinical. For the most part. By the end, its pretty sappy.
That’s not bad, its just kinda different. But not THAT different. Its still a Michael Moore movie and you knows what you’re getting into when you watch it. Good filmmaking, but, considering the source, we’d expect a little more from Moore.
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Of course you never have to leave your passport at the desk in ANY European hotel, they just take a copy, just like they do in most American hotels. where do you get that shit man? And about those security cams, you happen to find those all over the world even in your precious USA. So that was some pretty lousy euro-bashing, no?
I can't believe i'm saying this but Anchorite actually made some sense on his last posts.. -
He's cruising for triple by-pass surgery and hoping to re-draft the healthcare system before he's asked to pay his deductable.
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No one can ever really claim that Europe or the U.S. or anywhere is perfect and has all the answers. The point is, everyone wants to make things work-- some just don't give a shit about anyone else and some give too much of a shit about everyone else. That's the balancing act. For all some of you bitch about taxes, they provide a lot of essential services and infrastructure--whether healthcare is that kind of service is debatable, I suppose, I just happen to think it is. On the other hand, our tax system often disproportionately bleeds some Americans while benefiting some who don't deserve it. Again, a balancing act. Who the fuck knew?
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You should respect opposing views (rational ones) because they prevent the true wackos on either end from fucking everything up. The rhetoric in this country is way out of control as evidenced by my overly personal argument with Elvis Cole Lives in the other Sicko thread. We should just get over ourselves and work towards a solution. Conservatives et al should respect Moore's passionate viewpoint but absolutely continue to criticize what they don't like about it. Just stop all this "traitor" nonsense.
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Assuming you have the money to pay you can find the best doctors in the world here. That is why rich foreigners come here. But under any standard of evaluation (lifespan past 65, for example) we suck, pure and simple. The French have one of the best healthcare systems in the world and they pay much less per capita than we do. If you dispute this, please offer ONE, JUST ONE bit of actual data to support your theory. There is no standing in line and you get the care you need. You are the example of the ignorant American who thinks the US is number 1 in everthing without any evidence to support it.
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So it's ok with you then to have your passport photocopied everywhere you stay? You see what you've already given up, and you don't even realize it.
I've been all over Europe and in many places had to leave my passport - maybe it's different if you're a euro already but for us across the pond it's different, or at least it was 5-10 years ago.
No comment on the 15,000 dead old people, though, I guess that doesn't bother you either.
The proliferation of security cameras in europe is easily 5 times what it is in the US, if not more. -
I agree that what is absolutely necessary is public insurance. Public healthcare itself is a different debate.
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Everything sucks in some way. America's health care system sucks in ways that the other don't and vice-versa. I really have nothing to add, but to say, Moore does come off as a big-mouthed liberal (Limbaugh is his right equivalent in weight). I'm just tired of hearing people complain about things without having a solution. But then again I don't have one, I just think that all things suck in some ways.... I should read the whole thread before I post.
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I hope so, because I need some help.
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The CIA acknowledged that Plame was a covert agent at the time of her outing. So yes, there was a crime, it was just never prosecuted because of politics. Facts: they're pesky things.
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Democraps, Repukes and the entire fucking government is a load of shit. They are all corrupted fucktards who don't give a rats ass about the people or this country. They care about one a few things, power & greed. It's a constant pissing contest. They tell you what you want to hear and keep you sedated with reality tv, video gamees and shitty movies. They want you to be fat, lazy and non responsive. It's a joke people. Our country while it has many of things that are great has lost it's way a long time ago and the Federal Government as a whole from each party stinks rotten. I hate both movements. There is no one who is worthy of being president, senator or congressman. It's an exclusive club for those who have money to be a part of it. The only way it's going to change is when the people of this country wake the fuck up and realize they are being raped of everything and the country is being sapped dry to leave nothing left for future generations. We are nothing but a bloated icon that's on the the dying path fast to being history.
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Jun 25, 2007 8:23:29 PM CDT
Meant to say "They're all" fucking want an edit button
by allpowerfulwizardofoz
seriously Harry you can edit your posts and articles. Give us the same, please. It's annoying when the brain is not working with the hand and there is a typo and we cannot fix it.
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Do you folks know that there is a way to preview your comments? Type something into the subject line but before you type anything in the Your Comment box, hit Enter on your keyboard. When the next screen appears, you can then write your comment and select preview, if you like.
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sure it's ok to have your passport photocopied, mine got copied everywhere i went in US hotels, it's common policy everywhere. you expect everyone to believe you when you write down your name nicely? strange thinking.. But US in the only country i know where they take your photo and your FINGERPRINTS, and in the future all 10 of them. 2 is not sufficient anymore against the war on terror...and in NYC you've got cops on every street corner, so i'm still not getting your point. about France: I'm about as French as you are. so it doesn't concern me (funny how you call us 'euros', like we're some sort of country) but in the US people die bij the thousands each year just because they can't get health care, not because of some heatwave. I'm still not convinced, so try something else
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Those are tourists, not cops. The cops wear the BLUE uniforms.
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... as they no doubt already have on this site, and as they do everywhere else trying to get people angry about the people who want to give them health care. How dare they try to give you health care? When you win the lottery, aren't you gonna wanna fuck your neighors hard up the ass and keep all your money, paying nothing for the services provided to you and nothing to help maintain the society that makes it poossible for youi to live and prosper in a good place. Don't you just wanna keep all your lottery money, cause you just know your numbers are gonna come in don'tcha? and to keep it all you gotta do is keep voting for peoplw who don't give a sxhit about you and want to return to medieval times when the rich ran the government and the laws were only about protecting the rich from eveyrbody else. And dhy do you want that? 'cause you're gonna be rich too... someday. When your lottery numbers come in. And trust us that is the only fucking way you're getting rich cause we're gonna make damn sure any hard word you do earns you jack shit and any small business you create will be fucked by the bigger companies, and that you won't have a chance in hell if you take it court because that's rigged too. But your lottery mumbers, remember?> You just know they're coming in. So don't worry, be happy, and vote republican
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since they're so pesky and all
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That's what Moore says at the dinner table each night. It's true, it's damn true.
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Ok...i'll make this abundantly clear.
Canadian health care IS NOT FREE.
I swear people don't pay attention to tax rates in any way shape or form.
I used to live in canada.
I moved to california.
There is *LESS* tax here then where i used to live.....and i live in the outlying cities of one of the most expensive cities on earth.
They pay for the health care with....you guessed it. The extra taxes.
I don't get how people miss this point all the time.
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Saw this myself on Friday. Didn't write anything up but was very moved and entertained. Nice review Bobo.
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I saw the film last Saturday in an advanced show in Columbus, OH. I've been arguing against our health-care system for 20 some years and this movie made the good powerful arguements-- and also had the Moore style with occasional over-the-top stuff like shouting at Gitmo from a boat with a bullhorn (yeah, yeah, Mike).
During the credits I started crying convulsively in frustration and anger because of a friend who died this year because he never had health insurance, and his wife, also a good friend who died about 4 years ago for the same reason. The thing that makes me scream is that it cost our system 80,000 dollars to kill him-- unpaid medical bills that were added to the cost of everybody who IS insured. It could have saved him for a few hundred in preventative care that he never got. Its just SO stupid. -
Yes, of course you pay for it with taxes-- the point is that EVERYBODY pays whether they are sick or not. The current system is broken because it ALLOWS the healthiest, lowest-risk people to not be insured--this, demographically, cannot work. We cannot refuse emergency medical treatment due to ability to pay, so the actual risk is that you will be bankrupted, not that you will not recieve emergency treatment-- so free-marketers, tell me please how market forces change behavior when emergency-treatment-insurance
is given away free if you won't pay for it? Moore tells about a guy who wouldn't pay 60,000 dollars to re-attach his finger, but suppose he said OK and then just didn't pay for it? Who WOULD pay? YOU WOULD! Your cost includes his bill (its just SO stupid) -
It's not ok to have your passport copied everywhere. I'm not American and I've never had to show mine in the US. Maybe you're on a watch list and don't know it yet.
I've never given my fingerprints either. Disneyworld has stricter entrance requirements than the US, with fingerprint machines at every entrance.
NYC had a bit of a problem a few years back, maybe you heard about it. Even with a more visible police presence (but far from 'every corner'), it is the safest big city I've ever been to. Police with machine guns are standard at most big-city banks in Italy for instance and yes, with the EU you are losing your identity and becoming 'european' first in the eyes of the rest of the world.
You're really not convinced by the needless death of 15,000 people in one month? That's harsh, but in line with the disregard shown by socialized medicine for the weakest and least powerful in society.
Don't buy the hype that people are dying in droves in the US for lack of care; illegal aliens get better care here than most people get in their home countries, and usually for free; hence the huge problem with illegals. That's another can of worms, though.
By the same token, I'm not saying there aren't lapses and abuses in the system. It's far from perfect and the bureaucracy of health care needs to be fixed. If Moore's film helps draw attention to the real problems without resorting to deception and trickery, more power to him.
To paraphrase a quote on capitalism, the US health care system is the worst in the world, except for all the other ones.
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On the issue of covert:
"On March 21 (2007), Hoekstra [Ranking Republican on the House Intel Committee] again requested the CIA to define Mrs. Wilson's status. A written reply April 5 from Christopher J. Walker, the CIA's director of congressional affairs, said only that "it is taking longer than expected" to reply because of "the considerable legal complexity required for this tasking."
The CIA defines 'covert' and 'classified' interchangeably. Fitzgerald most recently said her status was 'classified', so while not technically covert, it should not have been disclosed. If she were covert she would not be working under her real name for a fake company, travel under her real name nor would she be listed in her husband's 'Who's Who' profile. She also hadn't travelled overseas since 1997.
Bottom line, again, is that Richard Armitage was acknowledged by everyone as the original source on this story, but was never indicted. As for the politics behind that, he was Colin Powell's man and therefore not on Fitzgerald's radar. The State Dept and the CIA are openly hostile to the white house and the pentagon, at least during Rumsfeld's tenure.
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I think I agree with just about word of this review. Since it doesn't vilify OR idolize Michael Moore then the whole Michael Moore "love him or hate him" sticky issue is avoided and the focus is put on the sad state of US health care.
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I think I agree with just about every word of this review. Since it doesn't vilify OR idolize Michael Moore then the whole Michael Moore "love him or hate him" sticky issue is avoided and the focus is put on the sad state of US health care.
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this is probably turning into a yes /no game but so be it: it IS ok to have your passport photocopied, they do it everywhere. especially in the US ( that or credit card number, which is far more scarier these days) When you check into a hotel , they just assume you don't walk away without paying? please anwer that. Everyone who enters the USA has to leave fingerprints and gets their photo taken. this is not even open for discussion. The fact that the US is going to take fingerprints from all 10 fingers instead of just two was fucking CNN just this very week. So you're just flat out lying or have never left your counrty in the first place. you probably have never seen a hotel from the inside as well. 15.000 deaths in France does not concern me cause it has nothing to do with my country. There are bigger differences between France and Holland than France and the US, but you probably didn't know that either. Why am I not allowed to buy 'into the hype'? because it doesn't strike with your view on the US health care system?? ( best in the world lol!)
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I loathe Moore...
...but he's absolutely correct on this issue.
My only gripe in this case is that he couldn’t resist pulling that Cuban stunt. By doing it he’s provided the most rabid of the conservatives with ammunition they don’t deserve. Of course a Communist dictatorship like Cuba will treat Moore and his firemen like kings since it’s a way of sticking it to America and making themselves look good in the process. Moore would have gotten the exact same result if he went to an American hospital, camera in tow, and said: “I’m making a documentary about American health care and I’ve decided to use this hospital as an example.” The people at that hospital would have made all kinds of exceptions and fallen all over themselves to treat the firemen in order to look like angels.
It’s a shoddy, crass and cynical tactic and one which ultimately might hurt the cause of national healthcare in America. Other than that, Moore is absolutely correct about how shitty and immoral the system is.
The bottom line is this, folks: any civilized society worth its salt takes care of its citizens who can’t (not won’t) take care of themselves.
I’m an American but I’ve spent many years off and on living abroad so I’m well acquainted with both the U.S. system and those of several other countries. There are pros and cons with all systems, but weighing all of them against each other, the American system falls flat on its face, despite being the most scientifically advanced in the world.
There are plenty of prejudices against America in many countries and loads of the old stereotypes are still alive and well, but nothing comes close to the sheer ignorance of so many Americans about other countries and how their systems work. This is largely due to the fucked up way in which far too many Americans view the political scale. What are mainstream “left” and “right” in American politics are both very much to the right of center on any objective, international political scale. In most other western style democracies, calling liberals “leftists” is just laughable since most liberals and conservatives in those countries correctly perceive themselves as being of a capitalist-friendly, bourgeois bent and thus clearly separated from Socialism and Communism. This warped American view of “left” and “right” is what enables idiotic statements like “Obama is a Communist!” or “Thompson is a Fascist!” or “the EU is Socialist!”
Even more tragic is that this extremely myopic view stratifies the system and makes virtually impossible any type of nuanced debate or compromise. Nobody would call collecting taxes to support the police, the military or fire departments “Communist”, but because health care is more or less a Capitalist project in America, any call for a tax-based alternative is considered “Communist” or “Socialist” in nature.
Sweden is an example of a country which for many years was plagued with an opposite albeit eerily similar situation. In Social Democratic Sweden state-sponsored healthcare was de rigeur for decades, and the population’s distrust of private alternatives stratified the system very much like in America. If anyone even breathed the words “private doctor” people would scream about how only those with enough money would receive health care while stepping on the faces of the working class. Naturally this system was doomed to fail eventually. It’s only in recent years (especially since the bourgeois alliance won the general election last year) that Swedish society has come to understand that there MUST be private alternatives in order to shorten waiting lists for treatment. Sweden’s biggest problem with healthcare is that there is virtually no protection for patients who have been maltreated. This is a side effect of trusting the state implicitly for too many years. There doesn’t exist an independent institution tasked with investigating medical standards and practices in Sweden, so if a doctor breaks your right leg while trying to fix your left, who do you go to to complain? Why the hospital’s own complaint desk after which they “investigate” themselves. How often do these “investigators” find evidence of malpratice in their own hospitals? That’s right, almost never.
This having been said, I am very much for a solution (much like the Netherlands) where comprehensive, transparent, state-sponsored and tax-funded healthcare exists for everybody, but where private alternatives also exist for those who can afford it.
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry when I read some of the posts here by pointy-headed, John Birch Society fucktards who fancy themselves modern day Minutemen guarding “freedom” against “communists” and “socialists”. These fuckers don’t even consider the United States a country. For them it’s a personal arena designed for one purpose and one purpose only: to allow them to make as much money as possible and not to have to take one iota of moral responsibility for society as a whole. They’ll buy $60 worth of food and dime store trinkets and give them away at Christmas (at least if people are watching) and consider their duties as citizens and human beings fulfilled. Mind you, these are the same assholes who say handouts don’t serve any purpose in developing nations and that the system has to change in order for progress to be possible there.
I think the best way to gauge the appeal of the notion of national health care is to just look at these boards: all liberals are in favor and many conservatives are too. The only ones opposed are the most extreme of the right-wingers, dittoheads, Coulter groupies and Hannity fans.
Raise taxes in order to provide decent health care for all citizens? Here’s one Capitalist who says you can count me in.
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We DO take care of the people that CAN'T take care of themselves. That is what Medicare, Medicaid and disability are for- giving care to children, the elderly and the disabled (and as pointed out, the US government puts more into these programs per citizen- and that is per ALL citizens, not just the ones actually receiving the benefits- than any other country in the world puts towards the medical care of each of their citizens). We do not and SHOULD NOT take care of people who don't or won't work. Nationalized healthcare asks ME to pay for the medical treatment of not only myself, not only people that make as much or more than me, but also those who simply refuse to work. And I am just not willing to do that. Minimum wage jobs with no benefits are for teenagers and retired people. Anyone who is a responsible adult (meaning someone who has avoided getting themself into tens of thousands of dollars of needless credit card debt and popped out kids willy nilly left and right) with a high school education and ANY semblence of work ethic can find a decent paying job that provides affordable (in line with any additional taxes that you'd be paying for universal healthcare) medical benefits. It may not be the job they WANT. It may interfere with their "lifestyle", but that's why it is called WORK. Is it unfair, that there are people born with silver spoons that never work a day in their lives and live in luxury? Of course. But the rest of us press on, pull up our manpants and take responsibility for our own lives and the lives of our own families.
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See? A post doesn't have to be 3,000 words to get a point across. You dullards.
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That is exactly how I feel. I already have too much of my taxes going to pay for people who are too good to work, so there is no way I want another huge chunk going towards some national healthcare system. In my opinion, as long as the disabled and elderly are covered nationally, I am ok with that, and they already are. Our system isn't perfect now, but it is better than what it would be if it were nationalized. Go talk to people with serious problems in countries that have nationalized healthcare and see what they think about the long waits for treatment.
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Wow. I'm no stranger to rightwing dupes, but for whatever reason I'm still always surprised by their sheer audacity to pontificate with such confidence while simultaneously displaying a complete vacancy of critical thinking skills. It's a dangerous combination, and it's consequences are clear when you see how dire the state of political discourse in America is these days.
It is also possible that the real situation, I think, is that these dupes actually know that they are wrong- they know they are full of shit- yet they believe they can trick you into believing that they aren't. By presenting their case WITH CERTAINTY- and by following their talking points- they just might be able to fool you. Shameless.
Neutron you're a feeble tool but I'll take the time to make this last point. Plame wasn't covert? Did you even read the link I posted?
By Joel Seidman
Producer
NBC News
Updated: 4:24 p.m. ET May 29, 2007
WASHINGTON - An unclassified summary of outed CIA officer Valerie Plame's employment history at the spy agency, disclosed for the first time today in a court filing by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, indicates that Plame was "covert" when her name became public in July 2003.
And Armitage was the only leaker, right? Rush Limbaugh says that too, so I'm sure that must be correct... -
What do you do? Go to the friggen emergency room like every other sick person already does. Moron.
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Nuetron was quoting the actual record and you quote a reporters interpretation of the record. I guess you ARE no stranger to dupes.
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haha... cute. So now NBC posted a false story? And what quote from the record are you talking about?
Valerie Plame under oath before Congress: “In the run-up to the war with Iraq, I worked in the Counterproliferation Division of the CIA, still as a covert officer whose affiliation with the CIA was classified,” Plame sad in her opening testimony.
She added, “While I helped to manage and run secret worldwide operations against this WMD target from CIA headquarters in Washington, I also traveled to foreign countries on secret missions to find vital intelligence.”
She was covert. You, unfortunately, are a braindead dupe that is comfortable believing lies. -
In the run up to the war...Yeah, the run-up started in 1992. dupe
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...well, even someone like you must get the point once in a while, eh fish-dupe.
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Valerie Plame was covert, slappy. Here's the CIA document to prove it: http://tinyurl.com/2athoo
The right wing dupe is wrong again. Surprised? He already claimed that NBC posted a false news story, let's see what he does with this one.
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I am a Democratic Party member, by the way. Not a fucking Democrat. If I'm a Democrat, then you are a Republicanist, or a fucking Independenter. I believe that the people should and do decide their fate in this country. It's just that now, everyone has decided that the reactionary stance on Universal Health Care is the way to go. OMG it's the Communists! Fuck! Where are all the Communists? They're here already! It's like a bad Paul WS Anderson flick. The fact remains that we have fucked up systems embedded in this country...and yes, I've seen SiCKO and no, I didn't agree with about 60 percent of it. Pay taxes now, and you get fucking war after war after war or new roads in whatever shitbag city the politician wants to bring 'pork' home to. You get to throw your money into the collective pool, where only those who majorly fund elected candidates get their say. These, are facts. Money talks in America. And most Americans with the stance that 'Socialized Medicine is a Failure' really hate the fact that the system would be government run and publicly funded. Also 'health' and 'living' in America would no longer be a meritocracy. LIVING IS A CIVIL RIGHT GUARANTEED IN THE CONSTITUTION. Along with Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. I don't believe I trust the wealthy and in power to 'govern' or 'vote on' civil rights for the poor and weak. I agree with the trepidation of having the government handle health care, because the government is a big fucking hammer. A big, slow moving deliberate hammer. It is not designed to handle this particular task....yet. Now, Anchorite, thank you for telling us that your father is a neurologist. Every time we have this debate, you bring up the fact that your father is a neurologist. He likely makes hundreds of thousands of dollars in a system designed to reward him for his skill. Your father is by no means the arbiter of who gets help, that falls to those who provide Americans with insurance. But, if I were a more cynical man, and I am, I would ask, in your stance, who benefits? Surely not poor people. Your father benefits in the current system. Doctors and lawyers are among the highest paid professions in America. And, by the way, 'popping out babies' is also the fault of the wealthy fuckwits who say that 'abstinence is the best policy'...and they say that to get the ignorant dirt-worshipping relgious nutbars to vote for them. But while I think this particular system is broken, I would live nowhere else in the world. Because in America, all it takes is a shitload of people to decide that 'Live, Healthy Folks' are better than 'Dead, or Dying Folks'.Here's my stance...No one in this country is deliberately evil. Everyone in this country is running the same race, and once you're ahead, you don't look back. That's all. You're not fucking with the guys behind you, you just don't give a shit. And the guys WAAAY in the back probably would guess that, hey, these guys WAAAY in the lead are keeping us down! And now, it's not intentional...not the case just two hundred years ago. But the truth is, when you talk about the black community, or the deaf community, or any other non-Anglo/non-Puritan seeded community in this country, we're all sucking hind teat since about oh...1790 or so. Blacks, Native Americans (A community that I belong to), and even immigrants of all stripes have been held back by policy AND the truncheon. So, pardon me Anchorite, if your swell neurosurgeon pop who benefits from the current system says that 'To change this way that I currently reap so much benefit would hurt EVERYONE in the long run...' comes off as a little disingenuous.In closing, I would say that the biggest difference between 'right' and 'left' in this country is in its view of human nature...the 'right' believes that humans are essentially wicked, evil creatures, and if left to their own devices would lay back and let the state take care of them...whereas on the 'left' they believe that human nature is essentially good, or even more nuanced than simply saying 'people are fundamentally lazy' or 'the poor are fundamentally lazy'....Yeah, I work a forty hour week, I have health care, and right now? Still poor. I was out of work for three months. (Hired but didn't start until a month after the official hiring date) So, I had to live off of credit cards. So, I have debt now. Anecdotal? You bet your ass. But, it's the truth as well. No, I'm not lazy, nor a victim. I just hope for a country that gives a fuck about its citizens. Oh, and Valerie Plame? Who gives a shit? Yeah, they outed her. But fuck, Alberto Gonzales...that's a REAL issue...caging fucking voters...being on the record doing so...hey, that's ILLEGAL, and HARDCORE...This whole Libby thing smacks of the Right Wing going after Clinton for illicit sex, for ANYTHING just to prove a point. Fuck, Americans want the truth, right? So, here's the truth: We're fighting in Iraq to keep the oil production down, not up. We're fighting to bring Iraq in line with OPEC, because Hussein, that fuckbag, was threatening to flood the market and devalue Bush's paymaster's bread and butter. It's all global economics. It really has very little to do with politics. Because we're now backing the Sunnis in Iraq...giving them our hand in friendship. Guess what? Bin Laden's a Sunni. More guess what? Our country wants to catch terrorists, but our politicians like having the fear stick. Beats the carrot, any day. Oh, and fuck the wealthy in this country for courting favor and corrupting the easily corruptible. And hooray for the wealthy for providing jobs, and assisting (in their now diminished taxable way) in the infrastructure...What's that? Oh, you say that New Orleans is still a fucking wreck? Rich folks? Wanna help? Nah, they did that to themselves, what with procreating and fucking up their credit, and...man, fuck you rich fucks.
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I'm sorry, but doctors deserve what they make in my opinion. You don't just go down to a medical school and bam, two months later you have license to practice. It takes a lot of time and a lot of loans. I come from a middle class family and I was not eligible for scholarships and grants and such, so you know what, I am paying back my college and grad school loans. I'm in debt like anyone else, but you know what, that is why I work hard. I can pay my debts and make my life what I want it to be. I'm sorry, but I don't want more of my money taxed to pay for a nationalized healthcare system. Sure my insurance isn't super fantastic, but I would prefer it to a nationalized one. I've seen firsthand nationalized healthcare and it isn't this wonderous thing people like Moore want to make it. I work hard for myself and family, not so I can support those who refuse to work.
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And I'll be damned if I'll become a registered user of Salon.com. Dupe.
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but what part of your "joke" was intended to be funny? Don't bother. If you have to explain it, it wasn't funny, champ.
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Because you and your think-tank friends posit that the government cannot handle this issue, because they're unreliable and a bloated bureaucracy. Well, I state that the government as it is now is not designed to take care of Universal Health Care but can be modified to do so in the future...but this position always makes me laugh. Here's a few things our government has done in the past, and still does. The US highway system. The Federally Funded public library service. Rural electrification.(I live pretty far from the central urban area where I am...Rural Electrification kicks ass for me)..vaccinations for everyone...the national parks system...social security *By the way, a nationalized health care service that works*...Medicare, Medicaid...And the US Government Workers Insurance. The FDIC seems to work well..Pell grants...War bonds...shit, I could go on, but you're not barking at an ignorant fuck here, Anchorite. This rhetoric is just that, it's not factual. If I have cancer now, I cannot just 'get help' until I'm pretty sure I'm dying and can simply go nowhere else. No one is going to send me to anyone but a GP to tell me I'm fucked and give me an Anacin at that point. Now, if you have a broken leg, and you go to the emergency room..guess what? You get to pay for that...well...you get billed for it...and if you have the inability to pay, then your credit rating is hosed and your life turns into a race to pay off a debt you incurred by something that may very well have not been your fault in the first place. And yes, everyone in the country deserves the same quality of food. Meaning, the homeless guy doesn't get to eat a crust of bread infested with maggots and covered in mold if food is offered to the rich by the government as well. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL", says so right there in the rule book. HEALTH is NOT A MERITOCRACY. Fine dining is not sustenance, it's a pastime. Pastimes are not federally funded. However, if you're saying that the government should feed its populace...then yeah, it should, if the Constitution says it should. And, guess what...It does. Life is a right, granted by that document if you are a citizen of this country...a citizenship which, by the by, happens at birth here in the States. Oh and another fucking organization run by the government? The US Army. Which handles and manages life and death decisions every day...our law enforcement...our EMTs...fuck, our Navy Medics all do what you're describing...I think you have underestimated our government.
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"Please tell me where the government has shown itself capable of competently handling bureaucratic endeavors that are national in scope."
All those keeping score, refer to my favorite Republican saying earlier in this TB.
and anchorite... it's you who are delusional. And disingenuous. Yeah, Republicans give a shit about providing universal health care. As if a Republican is going to have the solution AND the political will to implement universal health care. Jog on... Your guys have been consistently wrong about everything. Egocentric dupe. -
All men are CREATED equal, not to be fed, coddled, and given equal pay. There's a little thing called self-determination. Look it up, Pancho.
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I think that line has you a little confused micturatingbenjamin. All that means is that every citizen shall have the same chance in life, that there is not a defined class system. That is a true statement. An impoverished minority can become a doctor just like anyone else can. Sure the road may be a little harder, but in the end, they can become a doctor. It is not saying that everyone are equals. It was not meant to be defined as Marxist propadanda that states the guy down the street is entitled to the same lifestyle as me even if he chooses not to work in the same field or work at all.
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It's really not that cut and dried, man. I don't hate anyone. I don't even dislike the rich, but there are some assholes who are also rich who I dislike. My stance on the wealthy is that you have a responsibility to the country that made your wealth possible. To the people who funded your loans (Me! Whee! and everyone else at the credit union or bank where we attempt to save our money!) or grants (also Me! Whee! By my taxes!) that allowed you to enter a free marketplace (another benefit of the country where you're born and vis a vis its populace, who allows you to do such). No. A university education here is not free, and I admire those who would go into debt to become a doctor. Yet, in the UK it is free, and just about everywhere else it is, too. Everywhere in the G8 except here it seems, the governments like to think that an educated populace is a good thing. But here, intelligence is measured by the coin in your purse, not the merit of your actual intelligence. How you gain your wealth or what you do with it once it's yours is your business, really. Just don't fuck about with EVERYONE to keep yourself rich. You know, it's not just me who feels this way about the rich. Someone organizes all those 'lazy' 'stupid' fucks out there and decides they don't dig the wealthy having walled communities or living a better life by virtue of their parentage (aristocracy, I think the term is, when wealth is simply passed down from generation to generation), and then there will be a 'class war' that will be literal as well as rhetorical. But, luckily, we live in a country that doesn't need to have blood to have a revolution, right? Fuck, the scariest thing to me in all the world, is a desperate populace, and a blind wealthy elite that grows smaller and smaller as time goes by.But hey, let them eat cake, or in this case, steak? Right?
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enough with the Plame crap, have you seen SICKO yet? (dupe) Sorry, it's like a Turrets thing now (dupe).
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...jealous much. Learn to manage you finances and you can become "part of the problem", Billy.
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I just read an article about this Hippie commune that recently celebrated their 40th anniversary. You should consider visiting them Micturatingbenjamin so you can be an equal with everyone. I believe the name was Twin Oaks Commune. That way you can do equal work and get your equal share. You might even be able to stir them up on a crusade against wealthy people.
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First he tries to keep people from viewing the CIA document (the proof that he is wrong) by saying that my tinyurl link is to a kiddy porn site. What a dick. Then he says you have to be a registered user to view the link, which you do not. Then with his last post he tries to change the subject. Nowhere in his post is there any rebuttal regarding the PROOF that I provided. This is what we're up against- people who think they can bully others into believing their lies, and when they are called out on it, they behave like petulant brats.
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As a matter of civility, I won't comment on your assumption that I hate your dad because he's a doctor. I don't. And it doesn't matter if your dad's a neurosurgeon or a fucking proctologist, nor would I need to know the difference between the two to say that the government can handle the issue of health care. What you're doing by bringing up Terry Schaivo, sad fucking case that was, is to sidetrack the conversation from the facts: The government is capable of getting its shit together and taking care of the populace, and what's more, it's morally correct to do so. That's all this is about. Hey, your dad's paying off loans, and that's a hardship he took on by having to enter an expensive profession, right? That's not my issue, here, and I won't talk about that further, because it's not productive to the argument or the side I'm in favor of.I will agree with you. I don't know you from Adam. I just know what we're told, that doctors do it for a reason, right? It has to be financially viable in America, or there would be no point. Your dad may be a saint, working his tail off in a thankless profession, and you guys had to live hand to mouth for years and years just to see the glimmer of financial independence. I agree. I don't know if that was the case, or if it's a case that your father had the capability to suck it up and go after the American dream in the best way he knew how and understood the risks and pitfalls involved in that profession. So, you definitely win on the 'mb doesn't know Anchorite's family history, or his particular situation from dick'. That's all true.But, sadly, Anchorite, that's all that's motile in your argument. An ad hominem attack is when you call me crazy for whatever reason, and then circular logic would dictate that anything from that source would be 'crazy', right? Again, Anchorite, I'm not some easily wound up fuckwit. Deny that it is morally correct to take care of a person. Deny that, and then tell me again about Terry Schaivo. Who paid for Terry? Fuck, it would sure be fucked up if the financial burden of taking care of Terry was a factor in her husband's decision, wouldn't it? See, I can make knee-jerk emotional arguments as well. Fuck, man. You seem like an intelligent guy, but severely misguided and a little elitist.
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He went to your stupid link, saw that it was for Salon registered users (like yourself, dupe) and decided to drop the issue (dupe) since it wasn't related to the current TB. dupe dupe
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I am proud this day, to have found a button to turn on the reactionary talking point spin machine on the TBs. It was not hard, sez I. Where do I begin? Ok, first, I'm going to tell you that I'm not a hippie. And only this once. Because that's again, not the argument. And I'm typing as slow as I can so that you'll understand it.Second, I believe that all men were created equally. But not by some God. By biological craft, we are all the same stuff, and therefore all equal in the eyes of the law. The law says, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. The founding fathers, were then, of course by dint of THEIR arguments against monarchy, hippies, right? Equality is easy to scoff at when your share is 'more equal' than most. Oh, and, also, I'm not a communist either, or a socialist, for that matter. By the by, you're talking about social collectivism when you accuse me of being a 'red' in the way you've described...not being a hippie. Hippies were about 'no' system governing anyone. That's as dumb as anything I've ever heard of. This is the only post I'm going to talk about hippies, communism, or the fact that you're attacking me and not my point. I win, because you cannot convince me that attacking me is winning this argument. You win, because you called me a hippie. For the record, being reasonable seems to be the button. Having a reasonable, if not always factual and reasoned response, makes these folks attack. Again, show me why it's better to let some guy die because he didn't pay his taxes, and I'll show you where we abolished debtors prison. Show me where a black man in the projects has a 'harder road' and that's all to make him equal, and...you know what? All I want is for the other side of this debate to show the points. No spin, just talk. Tell me why your way is better! Don't convince me, just show me. God, is it really that hard?
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...the Twilight Zone.
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I just wanted you to read this post, man. I'm kidding. I still believe you to be an intelligent and rational person. A little diabolical maybe with the ad hominem stuff...but, let's talk pedantism now. You asked to provide proof that the government can take care of anything...not the Federally Funded anything...not the division of State vs. Federal funding. Which again, nice try, man, but that is not the argument either. None of these things, ultimately is the argument. Our government, judiciously run, and conservatively backed can literally do anything we want it to do...that hippie JFK got us to the moon, and work of both Dem and Rep presidents since Wilson did their best to keep this country financially viable. I am willing to agree with you that the government now cannot handle the sudden responsibility of taking care of every single person in the country. But hey, the state where I live is now putting through several bills to make our State use some of the social security money we take in to provide a state sponsored insurance IN ADDITION to allowing citizens to choose to take private insurance if they like. I like that system. It offers choice, and you pay a slightly higher tax to offer the choice. Again, the argument isn't 'should the government coddle and baby everyone from birth to death'...because that, too, is tyranny. Should the government provide for a healthy populace? Yep. Sure. Why not?
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I'm not a registered user at salon.com. You just have wait a few seconds then click 'enter salon' at the top of the page, then it goes to the article.
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Your ramblings about how rich people owe everyone else in America because we are all legally "equal" hasn't really shown anyone much of anything. Just ramblings. I mentioned a hippie commune, not because I view you as one, but simply because they practice the equality arguement you have been going on about.
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Your taxes pay for all kinds of things. Jails, rape victim counseling, drug control policy enforcement, cops, the military, the roads we drive on, Homeland Security, partial birth abortions. Just kidding, I don't think the government funds that yet. Or ever will. I don't know. But what I do know is that your Social Security tax, the money that comes out, is paid out not into a fund that you're ever going to see, but to keep the elderly, the blind, the deaf, the disabled, and those who have emotional or mental disabilities alive. We decided a while back that this was a good idea, I suppose. I still think that it's a good idea. I think Public Works was a good plan, and it helped our country out of the Depression. Now, all I'd like to hear is why denying anyone the ability to participate in preventative medicine is a good idea. Why denying anyone health care by the virtue of what's in their wallet is a good idea. I know there's no conspiracy. I know that nobody wants to hurt anyone out of hand, nobody I know anyway. But I also know that it seems wrong to me to say that because Mr. Smith from the poor section of town doesn't get prescreening for bowel cancer because he does not have health insurance is an okay system to have. Insurance reform? Sure! But people on the other side of this argument, give me a solution! Not just calling me 'crazy' or 'stupid' or 'left-wing'...what's another solution? Or as a wise man once said...'Don't you just want to walk in there and scream BE REASONABLE!' Fuck, man. Just call me a hippie.
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Okay, I said before that we're not arguing rich vs. poor. I'm arguing Health Care Paid for By Government and Taxes vs. Privatized Health Care. My point of view is that Health Care is not a commodity to be earned. Health is not a Meritocracy. I think EVERYONE who pays taxes should foot the bill. I already foot the bill for you when you turn 65, yes? I'm paying for your grandparents and mine if they're still alive, because right now, this week, they're taking a percentage of what I earn for the Social Security. I already do this, because I think it's right. I actually have pretty damned good benefits. When you ask if I should hand those over to someone else I say no. Should someone else be offered the opportunity to get those benefits? Yes. Absolutely. So, what's your take? Let's be reasonable.
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Did you really decide to "drop the issue (dupe) since it wasn't related to the current TB"? haha, how pathetic is that. Stop being a pussy, read the damn link and come back here and face the music.
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The NHS is shit, it really is. (I mean generally- try registering with a NHS dentist or even GP if you think otherwise- A&E and other real emergency situations show that it can be brilliant) However, it is less shit than the US alternative. The real problem is that it will never be reformed in any way as it is a fucking political football that both parties kick around whilst massaging statistics to state that the other side did a worse job with it. The thought of having no state healthcare is absolutely horrific, there are countless people (many of whom work in the NHS) that can not afford insurance and what sort of country would we be if we denied them? a pretty shitty one.
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I have stated that: It is morally correct for the government to provide health care to its citizens. I believe that health is not a meritocracy. Living cannot be an earned commodity or life itself is debased, and devalued existience in the touchy-feely sense of the word 'vaule'. Thus far, my opponents on this issue have declared me: A hippie, crazy, implied that I'm stupid, an ass, overly emotional, 'rambling' I like that one...it makes me feel more mature. :) But...sadly...no one has given the opposite side of the argument. I'll wait though, not everyone is going to hear my side and just type hippie or communist, right??Right?
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I wish there was a simple solution. I will always agree that our system has problems. I just don't agree that nationalizing healthcare is the fix. I've witnessed the NHS firsthand in the UK and it is crap. I mentioned yesterday that when I was there, there was a 1.5 year wait just to get wisdom teeth removed. That type system is not a good fix for the US. I honestly think the biggest and most direct fix would be stop the price gouging and address the malpractice insurance. How to do that, I don't know. But from my experience, a national healthcare system is not a viable solution at the moment. If a better idea pops up in the future that isn't going to drain my paycheck to pay for it, I am open minded. I, however, am not going to fall prey to another tax that benefits those who do not wish to work and contribute to society. I lose a little bit of my paycheck every week to pay for health insurance. Unfortunately, it does cost money, but when it comes down to it, I wouldn't trade it in for anything close to that of the NHS in the UK.
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Can you name 1 fact-based, nonemotional reason why our healthcare system is better other than rich people from other Western countries come here sometimes. And do not rely on Canada. They have significant problems that many of the European countries do not have. and are not much better than we are.
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So for you, this is a tax situation, in that you simply don't want to foot the bill for the lazy. You don't want to pay for those who won't (willfully) pay for themselves. I cannot disagree in any way with that argument. So, your reason behind disliking the proposition of Universal Health Care comes down to A: It will adversely affect you financially for something that you see no gain in doing and B: The Bureaucracy is unwieldly. Both are valid and well thought out and personal positions.A rebuttal of sorts: Did you know that the government provides a health insurance policy to congressmen that's competitive with what most Americans with insurance have? We already have a system that covers congressmen, senators, postmen, police, military and their families. The system is in place. Bureaucracy is a problem in any system, but I happen to work with the deaf, so, I deal with SSI SSD and Medicare all day long. I can't go into further details because of a disclosure agreement with my employers, but I can say that most of the interactions I have had are simple and not as heart wrenching as one would think. The other rebuttal. This one is political, but it is only my view. I don't want to fund 'Faith Based' anything with my tax money. Nothing. I don't care about a motto on the money, but don't make me pay for Abstinence Education or the religious argument of Creationism or Intelligent Design. Don't make me buy bibles with my tax money. Of course, I can't simply deny these things I disagree with their portion of the tax decided by the government...millions of dollars..However, I know that if enough of the citizens of this country agree with me, that giving money to these boondoggles is a farce, then we can change policy. I believe that funding medical care for everyone will be costly, I simply don't care, so long as everyone is given the same level of Medical Care. We live in a society of greater and lesser, yes? As one of the fortunate ones to be 'working poor', I can speak for those who are in my situation. Knowing that the money I pay in takes care of everyone, regardless of their social or political or even their work ethic standing, then I feel we are living up to the vision of this country our forefathers had.
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is directly related to our own ethic, determination and work... as it should be. If those wallets cannot handle the burden of paying into private insurance, then perhaps the owners of said wallets should seek to change their course in life instead of crying for those with fuller ones to foot their bills.
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Wow. So, in your opinion, it is morally correct to deny health service to people who simply cannot pay for it? So, hypothetically, the people who worked for Enron, when they were put out of work, and COBRA benefits dried up, and moreover, were denied access to further employment due to their corporation having such a stigma, they deserve to have no health care because the world simply fell apart around them? What about the forty hour a week garbage man on the city payroll in the Ninth Ward of New Orleans...he deserves no health care because of a natural disaster? I disagree, what happens with our wallets is as much determined by our home life as it is by our government (taxes) our employers (bankruptcies, shifts in wage policies), and the natural world (hurricanes, floods, earthquakes). No amount of stick-to-it-iveness is going to change the fact that some people are bankrupt and broke through no fault of their own. My question to you is, is it morally correct to deny full health care, from birth to late in life managed health care to any citizen of the US...
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The tax issue is definitely one of my main concerns, but I also worry from a social perspective. Our welfare system definitely needs more reforms to actually encourage(put politely) those who do not wish to work. I saw how being on the Dole in the UK was a normal everyday item and people on it didn't have any drive to get them off of it. They got free government money and to top it off, they didn't have to worry about healthcare since everyone elses tax money was fitting that bill. I knew people on the Dole who had kids and didn't think twice about it. A single mom got great benefits like housing. I really do not want to see our welfare situation devolving to something like this, and I really believe a system of nationalized healthcare would only encourage such behaviors. As far as Congressmen and their benefits go, you are 100% right. I strongly believe that they should not be getting all these pensions and healthcare benefits for serving a term in office. Serving the government was meant to be a duty of mindful, productive citizen. Now it has turned into a career.
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...and i can tell you that taxes my be higher, but so is our minimum wage. and i've never waited longer for a docter than waiting for my father to get stitches in his hand in Miami. My Uncle had to move here from Florida because his son needs medications and medical attention that he just can't afford. He moved here a few months ago and his son is doing very well. and rarely gets sick and has access to a hospital anytime. just saying, i love it.
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And this isn't an issue of "morals". The government already dictates what is and is not "morally correct" to us too much as it is. Providing health coverage to those without it is no more or less "morally correct" than having government employees pass out Big Macs to homeless and hungry people. It may seem like the NICE thing to do, it may seem like the right thing to do out of compassion, but this is ultimately an issue of money and an issue of personal responsibility. And on top of that, giving universal coverage is about as feasible as giving everyone in the country a new fleece Tek-Vest from Old Navy when it gets cold every winter. I feel for people that work their asses off and get laid off. It could easily (and has) happen to me. I feel for people who work their asses off and get no coverage. I was one of those people at one point. But I decided to take it upon myself to find new work that DID assist with my private insurance. Sure, I didn't like the work as much, but it was a personal choice. When (for whatever reason)I am out of work, I take it in stride, and don't expect to be supported when I have to look for new work. Hell, when I was laid off before I didn't even apply for unemployment. I hate the thought of being a drain on the system while I sit around licking my wounds- it makes me sick. I took my (well earned) severance and before it ran out, had lined up a comparable job. Personal choice, personal responsibility.
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I didn't like this movie, by the way. The musical was invasive, and Michael Moore skirted the issue of cost altogether. He made it seem like there's a conspiracy out there to frame the debate in Communism vs. The Good Old US of A...(and while I've seen some of that rhetoric here, it's not the case everywhere)...I didn't like that, and he definitely came close to an out and out lie when it came to the girl with the cochlear implant. I work, as I've stated with the deaf. There is no concrete evidence that a second cochlear implant would be better than one. Rush Limbaugh is deaf, and the owner of a cochlear implant. One. And he's stunningly wealthy. I don't like his show, or his point of view. But he is a good example because if anyone, in my opinion, would get the best for themselves, it would be Rush. But, he only needs one. Because it only has a real benefit if there's one. Cochlear implants are usually for those who have hearing then lose it, so they understand the input they're recieving; also it's a digital signal that is highly degraded from the actual tone and sound of words and background noise...it's sound is kind of like a squelchy hearing aid. The entire enterprise of implanting is experimental, and having two is redundant and unnecessary. That's why the girl was denied more than one. Michael Moore, I love ya, but damn dude, you make those of us who agree with your side look like dicks when you pull shit like that. I totally agree with the Cuba thing. Yeah, they helped out...but it was to kick America in the nuts one more time, more than to help out. It would have been more poignant I think for Moore to take them to the UK, and show the entire process. Anyway, informative about the policy somewhat, overly dramatized, and somewhat cheap, it was not a great flick, and I'd rather get facts than this overly maudlin stuff.
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What you are talking about is inherent in the welfare state in any country in the world. People behaving like scum is a world evil. FYI the dole only pays out about $80 per week, which in london is not a lot of fucking money, and a free NHS (There is no question of it- for people on benefits it is free) does not contribute to them going to work. What does prevent them from returning to work is that in many cases (my friend and his wife being an example) if she worked then the poverty trap closed and their net income went down. I would actually take social security money away and provide food stamps. Just watch how fast they go to work- and I find it astounding that you would rather deprive everybody of some form of national health service (not the UK version, but we are talking ideals) rather than actually incentivise people to work. The one time I was unemployed I had to go through the misery of applying for benefits so that I could get Council tax relief (there's an unnecessary, unfair and painful tax) and my NI contributions paid, but I did not collect any dole.Interestingly, one of the UK papers reported the other day that a single mother on benefits receives about £400 per week. That is fucking disgraceful- as it works out as the gross earnings of someone on roughly £20K per year.
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Elegant solution. Take away 'fun money', and provide only subsistence. Morally correct and fiscally responsible. It's like a situation I've recently come up with...a relative is a 'dole scum'..but here in the States. She will not work, she will not do anything really. She needed some financial help. I assisted by paying the bills for the help, and suddenly I was a tyrant! I was a villain! I didn't give her money, I paid for what she needed. Then I realized that would work for all the able bodied and able minded indigent. I just think that it is in our best interest and morally correct to take care of the least of us.
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Govt. hands out everything you said already..and your ass is working just as hard now. Clothing: Many shelters are federally funded, and provide clothing, housing, and food. ESB and Food Stamps: Provides food for the poor. HUD: Provides low income housing. All of these things are provided because we did at one point have to ask ourselves, after having nothing in our bellies for damned near a decade...'Is it Morally Correct'? We live in a country based upon fundamental beliefs, not the least of which is that if you're a citizen, you deserve the chance to live. You need food, shelter, clothing, and in some cases, medical care. Beyond that the government should not owe us anything. Also, fuck, man, I already pay for health care for a large part of the populace, why not myself?
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the only flaw in the plan is that it is an utterly demeaning thing to do to someone, and has vague fascist overtones that make me feel uncomfortable. However, it might encourage them to turn their lives round and get a job.
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Hey man, 'demeaning' it may be, but then it would no longer be the lifestyle of choice. Then, you watch, they'd work harder to get away from the stigma of being just a damned suckle-drone. It would work. And it would be enough of a 'punishment' for being poor (that the opposition loves so much, they want the lazy punished as hard as can be) just living off the teat of society. Some would have no shame, but there's no lack of those people in ANY society.
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Yeah, Moore's 'sources' aren't from inside the industry at all, actually, they're 'former employees' which leads me to believe there might be grudges to be repaid on camera. I don't know, I can't trust this one. F9/11 as well was a little overzealous, but the facts were shown; Rumsfeld smilin' and shaking Hussein's hand, and Bush walking hand in hand with oil tyrants...But this one...I don't know...seems a little fishy.
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but there is still something about the thought of it that makes me uneasy. Maybe it's my bleeding heart playing up again?
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Have you got the memo? This is now the "METAL STORM" DVD RELEASE talkback.
PS. Did you ever get the feeling Michael Moore is mad he was born white so he could claim some victim status. Rosie has been trying sell the public on the "fat is ethnic group" thing, but no one is buying it. Hips don't lie -
Have you got the memo? This is now the "METAL STORM" DVD RELEASE talkback.
PS. Did you ever get the feeling Michael Moore is mad he was born white so he could claim some victim status. Rosie has been trying sell the public on the "fat is ethnic group" thing, but no one is buying it. Hips don't lie -
Sorry I don't have time to read all of the TBs before posting. Hope this isn't too repetative:
1. HMOs were invented in 1973 by Ted Kennedy to move the US towards a European-style socialized medicine. Nixon agreed with this, but he also gave us Amtrak and the EPA. Using Nixon (or GWB) as a conservative boogy-man is just funny. If you don't like HMOs, get Congress to repeal the law that forced them on the US.
2. "Is anyone going to argue that they would rather pay out of their pocket than have the government pay health care?" Yes, me. Give individuals the same tax advantages as corporations to buy health insurance and I will buy my own policy and get a much better deal. Buying health insurance as an individual would be no more difficult than buying car insurance.
3. RE: Canada - Quebec sued the federal govt of Canada to get out of the nationalized health care system up there because it sucks so bad it is tantamount to a violation of human rights. Things are worse in Europe.
4. RE: Cuba - Cuban health care is among the best in the world. Unfortunately, it is not available to the Cuban people. Only high-ranking govt officials, and foreigners who pay upfront in US$, get the type of care provided to Moore's group. Castro himself flew in Spanish doctors and equipment for his recent health crisis since he wanted the very best (US level) health care.
I'll be happy to provide documentation for all of the claims I made above if requested. I'll also answer any rebuttals. Just don't have time today.
Please note that I have not commented on 'Sicko', just on Bobovision's review of same. I want to see 'Sicko' before I comment on the movie itself.
So far, the only Moore film I have seen was F911, a movie so shockingly bad I could not believe that anyone took it seriously. My wife and I watched the DVD shortly before the 2004 election (at the urging of pro-Kerry friends). If anything, it forced me to vote for Bush, i.e. judge a man by the quality of his enemies. -
Then I have to bask in my workload of house crap I have to do today...I don't want to help you get medical care. I'm not arguing this side for the lazy, or the poor. I'm not in for the wealthy, or every other American. I'm on this side for me and mine, my family, my friends. For the people I care about, I would provide health care. I don't care if some asshole takes advantage of a system that is designed to take care of me and my family when I'm not using it, because I know that if ever there was a need for me to use it...it would be there. It's why I agree with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, fuck, everything to do with taking care of the least of us...because maybe one day that might be me. And a federally mandated and regulated system of protection works for our food: the FDA, our environment: The EPA...and even protects us from saying fuck: The FCC. When right-wingers confront issues, reactionaries mainly, they say the system isn't good, the system is bad, the government doesn't work. Then, when people who agree with them put them in charge, they begin dismantling a system or corrupting it to prove their point. I'm not backing Universal Health Care for your health. I'm backing it for mine. Later, guys...I'm going to see Live Free or Die Hard and give you guys a thrill ride of a review! XOXOXO MBM
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...I had to run a staff meeting for training on new television ratings software (with the new Live + Neilson data built right in, yay!). Didn't leave the TB but DID feel it was becoming antiproductive to continue with the whole Armitage/Plame/Bergler/Libby direction that you went off on. NEWS FLASH: There are a lot of dirty politicians in Washington on both sides and you can tit-for-tat all day long. (dupe) So lets get back to discussing Moore's latest hack work.
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...To be labelled a "jerk" by yourself should be taken as a compliment by most thinking individuals.
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Given the treatment of Ayaan Hirsi Ali by your govt, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a model for the US on freedom of speech, or any other basic human rights.
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Thanks TVGuy for giving the libs something else to champion.
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Yes, Moore did technically commit treason during his trip to Cuba. However, there is a difference between how a law is written and how it is enforced. Under the current law, Jane Fonda should be arrested for her Viet Cong radio broadcasts, and, based on her own public comments, be hung by the neck until dead. That is the law, but 99.99% of Americans would be horrified if our government did that. I have suggested to some Bush administration people that the president should pre-emptively pardon Moore and thank Moore for his contributions to public discourse. :)
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I applaud your fervent belief. You are truly what makes this country great, and even you, I hope one day benefits from health care. General care, mental health care....especially mental health care....Have a good life, man.
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...is much appreciated, Bennyboy. Maybe we'll share meds together in the asylum. Keep an eye out for my documentary...CRASHO.
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I have committed treason. During wartime, I aided and funded the enemy, I protected their families, and their economic interests. Who am I?
George W. Bush
I have declared myself not a part of the executive branch of the US Government as described in Article 6 of the fucking Constitution.
Richard Cheney
I got turned away at a US held military base providing health care as a citizen, and had to take them to Cuba for health care.
Who am I?
My friend's dad, he's Costa Rican. He always votes Republican, and had to take his family to Cuba to get a chest x-ray. So what? Cuba's about as dangerous as a wicked fart. Why don't we sweat China? They've got BILLIONS of followers of this Marxist doctrine. Shiiiiit! -
Damn dude. It's going to be spelled CrASHO. For some reason. We can agree that this flick sucks. But I still believe in Universal Health Care is better than some of us getting fucked over.
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Hey I didn't say the movie sucked, but I know Michael, and I know how he can twist things, resulting in completely invalidating intelligent discussion on the subject. Now granted, there have been some good posts here, but nothing that will convince libs or conservatives to dump their ideologies in order to really fix the problem. But it's been fun getting a couple of you guys riled up. Biggles out!
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That is why I specifically used Big Macs and Tek-Vests as examples. Food and clothing are neccessities. Big Macs and Tek Vests are not. Health care is a neccessity. Health COVERAGE is not. However, in this case, the people that recieve WIC and foodstamps and other government assistance programs DO get health care coverage via Medicare and Medicaid as long as they are willing to live within the system. These are the impoverished single parents, the elderly, the disabled and the children. Everyone else has access to healthcare, because they can work... and either work a job that provides it (I have a high school diploma and that is it. I live in one of the poorest counties in Florida. I live in an area starved for jobs. Yet even with all that in mind, I've only been without full medical coverage for a total of 4 months in the last 10 years) or work enough to afford it OR go to a free clinic or go to an ER for every case of the sniffles and just don't pay. Personal choice.
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You motherfucker. YOU engaged ME on the subject. You've got nothing to say for yourself? The truth isn't important to you at all is it?
You're just another rightwinger who can't take personal responsibility for his words or actions. All too willing to engage in discourse when there are no consequences, and like a coward holds his hands over his ears, closes his eyes and runs when he is proven wrong. -
Put down the fucking cupcake, and bam, healthcare problem solved. Presto. Rickey's a fucking genius. Look, you're posting on a site that generates revenue so that HARRY KNOWLES CAN CONTINUE TO EAT HIMSELF TO DEATH. Stop debating the politics and just start mocking the fatties that roam free amongst us, grazing on fast food. Healthcare problem solved.
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And am still on the side of right! Woot! I win! Cuntpickle!I just wanted to say cuntpickle. I learned it from watching Bullshit! on Showtime. Damned you, Penn Jillette! Fucker!
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You make out with your mom with that mouth?! Dude you've been talking about Plame for most of this thread. Go back and look for yourself before you go all "ooh, I'm right and you lie, nyaa nyaa nyaa. right-winger, blah blah blah." sorrry to say, you've just gotten boring. Please stop posting. You're embarassing yourself.
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Are you kidding me? I posted proof, and you make excuses and post that weak bullshit?
And was that last post of yours supposed to make any sense? Were you shivering when you typed that? Your contributions to this TB was a masterclass in TB douchebaggery. haha and I think you're the first person I've encountered who actually calls himself a "neo-con". It's classic shit like that that makes TBs so fucking worth it. -
Always. History proves it.
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neocons need to let the coolness into their vertebrae
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You still here? I was out of this TB yesterday (got a little boring). But glad to see that you're still carrying a torch for little ole me but fyi, I'm over 12 yrs old which may not appeal to you. Still haven't got my Salon.com membership, sorry. Biggles out. dupe
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Even though Libby wasn't convicted of outing Plame, WE know the truth, dammit. The fuck he couldn't remember his conversation with a reporter and I don't give a damn if Armitage DID actually leak her name first, someone in this administration HAS to go down sooner or later. Fucking neo-cons. Lick ass biggles!
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hehe yeah I hear ya. Isn't it funny how every time you corner one of these rightwing cuntpickles with the truth, they can't handle it.
And then the shameless little neocon pops his head in here with facetious bullshit like 'Still haven't got my Salon.com membership'. Did I not explain that you do not need a membership? Is the internet a problem for you, biggles? haha we all know you just don't have the balls or the maturity to face the truth and admit you are wrong. -
facts do mean something, moron
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I love humanity.
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Yes, I feel a little stupid right now.
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I posted basically the same query twice and you did not respond either time. My mangled grammar aside, do you have a response?
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