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IndustryKiller! Has Our First Look At Paul Haggis’s Follow-Up To CRASH! Test Screening Of IN THE VALLEY OF ELAH!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Hey, everyone. ”Moriarty” here.
I hate CRASH. I really do.
And I’m not much for the rest of what Haggis has done so far, either. So I’m not the guy you should listen to when it comes to sizing up his first film as a director since he won the Oscar for CRASH. IndustryKiller!, on the other hand, has had a chance to see an early screening of the movie, and here’s what he had to say:
Paul Haggis, a man of many talents. Co-writer of maybe the best Bond film of all time, yet also one of the most undeserving best picture winners of all time. Oh yes Paul you are nothing if not a paradox. And thus is how I feel about the man. Casino Royale was one of my favorite films of last year, I'm one of the few who still like Mystic River even after repeated viewing, and while Million Dollar Baby certainly didn't deserve best picture it's still a strong actors showcase intimately directed by Eastwood.
Then there's Crash. When Crash won best picture it took every ounce of my strength not to throw my television out the window. To make matter worse to this day I still hear philistines talk about what a wonderful examination of racism it was. For the record it isn't. But that is where I was on the Paul Haggis topic when I walked into the very first screening of his new film "In the Valley of Elah" tonight at the Arclight in LA, presided over by none other than the man himself. I'm going to give a slight spoiler warning now for those who want to go in blind.
The film starts out with Tommy Lee Jones getting the call that his son has gone awol from the military after a tour in Iraq. being an ex military man himself, he takes the liberty of driving to some town specified as a "two day drive" to look himself in and around the military base. What follows is a hodgepodge of scenes of Jones showing up places and asking questions until he finds out his son is actually dead and it turns into a Haggified version of those Ashley Judd crime thrillers but with Charlize Theron instead.
First of all we can lay it to rest right here, Haggis love to preach. He likes to start out pretending he's not preaching but by the end of the film he's snuck up on his soap box and is yelling right in your ear hole. First racism, now the Iraq war. Which is bad in case you didn't notice. Real bad. So bad in fact that in the world of this film every soldier we encounter who has been there is a murdering, war crime commiting bastard who absolutely cannot adjust to normal life once he is back in the states without resorting to violence. And I know this film is based on an actual event, but the way it's portrayed it seems, not like a small cache of soldiers, but the American military at large. To drive it home there are little vignettes of films Jones's son took on his cell phone in Iraq that pop up every now and again that mostly show American soldiers killing, torturing, and disrespecting the dead. Hell just for good measure we even get a random side event where a previously unseen soldier has killed his wife for no good reason. You know just in case you missed that one on CNN.
Thus is the problem with Mr. Paul Haggis. He presents us the societal problem in an appropriately emotional package and then presents the solution as.....oh wait, he doesn't present a solution. Ever. Or even attempts one for that matter. And that problem I mentioned before, is REALLY obvious. We have racism in our society? Thanks Paul. The Iraq War is bad for the soldiers? Ya don't say! I'm waiting for his next masterpiece "The Sky is Blue". What do we do about these problems? Don't ask Paul he's just here to make movies about 'em. There is literally no insight into the situation to be gleaned from this script. And worse, he makes a bad crime thriller out of it. And just in case it isn't Hollywood enough for you he throws in a cute female cop played by Charlize Theron who, doggonit, just doesn't get the respect she deserves from her cheauvinist male counterparts. (Whoa there's ANOTHER societal problem!) Why she joins Jone's on his quest and starts openly bringing him to crime scenes and to question witnesses while none of the other cops seem to care is beyond me.
If there is one thing Crash had going for it it's excellent performances. But with the exception of Tommy Lee Jones Haggis strands his actors. Jones is great though, the best moments of the film are when he says nothing and just let's the weight of it all hang for a moment on his leathered face. Theron is wasted in a cliche role that is more or less completely unnecessary despite its size. The same goes for Jason Patric, which is a crime given his talent and that he only does a film once every few years.
Moreover Haggis is still trying to be everything to everyone. (at least Crash had equal opportunity racism) Hell he even throws a precocious kid scene somewhere in there just in case the blatant disrespecting of Iraq troops turned you off. So if you aren't a fan of his particular brand of applesauce then this is only going to sour the pot more. To cap it all off as I was walking out of the theater some guy was saying it was "the first Oscar calibur movie of 2007", then again this guy was also saying it to random strangers and seemed vaguely crazy. Which I thought made total sense.
IndustryKiller! out.
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So there...
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long ago...
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that's what i said
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I too loved Casino Royale and I do think the best lines were provided by mr Haggis. I remember when the guy at my local videoshop put a copy of "Crash" in my hand and said the film would change my life.
Christ I hated that bloody film. I even disliked it before seeing it cause I'd heard about David Cronenberg's plea for Haggis to change the title.
So yes he is extremely overrated as a writer/directot but I am more than happy for him to tweak any potential Bond script... -
For a moment I thought it was...
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There were a couple of lines in CR I found REALLY cringeworthy. Could have been Haggis, could not have been, might have had something to do with the way they were acted. At any rate I can't call him the greatest script doctor of all time. But I did really like the first series of "Due South", so I have to give him a lot of credit for that. It also went noticeably downhill after he left, and followed a steep downward trajectory until it ended.
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Thats fighting talk where I come from!
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Did you seriously just do a Ryan Seacrest... "Out!"
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I wouldn't have voted it best picture either, but I don't see any problems with the man.
That being said this does sound shitty, but I remember the early word on THE CONSTANT GARDENER being the same, and I ended up loving that film. -
I thought Brian Helgeland wrote Mystic River? Am I wrong? No.
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as a child the only tv/film his parents let him watch was After School Specials. And Public Service Announcements.
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Tony Danza makes an appearance as Saddam Hussein!
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It followed Bodn formula with no memorable dialogue or original action scenarios. It worked because of Martin Campbell's direction, that free running bloke's stunts and Mads Mikkelson's acting.
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Damn you Michael Bay
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Weird.
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this guy makes films that make people dumber.
"To make matter worse to this day I still hear philistines talk about what a wonderful examination of racism it was. For the record it isn't."
nailed it. -
Just sayin...
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You know, a split second before he announced Crash had won the Oscar? That was, by a country fucking mile, the best thing to come out of that abysmal piece of crap. I'm right there with you, Jack Nicholson. I don't understand why it won, either.Thanks, Paul Haggis, by the way. Thanks for your insights into racism, which I have no doubt you are qualified to pontificate on what with all of your experience of racism and whatnot. Up next, Paul Haggis shows us what it's like to be a lesbian.
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Love the movie. one of the few times I've disagreed with Moriarty. To each his own.
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for me to poop on.
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...the review would be a little different. Yeah, Paul Haggis is a terrible fucking director. The guy has NO idea what he's doing. Doesn't have a grasp on performance (that was probably every actor in there's best performance they've ever given), how to put a movie together (the movie won for best editing), music (the music perfectly suited the movie) and on and on. Yeah, he's terrible. And for the record, Crash DID deserve the oscar. Let's look at the nominees shall we? Munich - the kind of bloated self-important film that people vote for to make themselves feel smart. Too bad it was an hour long and the most boring movie ever. Capote - did this movie have a pulse? There's never been a worse movie that's won the best actor nomination. Brokeback Mountain - Why exactly was this movie good again? Why did everyone like this again? Cause two guys loved each other? Give me a break. Good Night and Good Luck - an okay movie that begged for an oscar by presenting itself in black and white. George Clooney is the worst actor in the universe. Crash dared to take chances and dared to be great. Even though it didn't quite get there, it's ten times the movie all those pieces of shit were.
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Do philistines talk about examinations of racism? That seems like a bit of a malapropism.
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is when some feeb tries to argue about movies with you, then when you respond to their insipid love of Crash by telling them it sucks, they think they have the trump card in "Duh! It won best picture, obviously it is great!!"
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ok. casino royale had nothing to do with haggis. sure, he wrote the screenplay. but, when people were reviewing the thing they were nervous about the film. because of his script. it was really the director and his star that made that picture. and crash and million dollar baby make me want to rip my eyes out of their sockets. oscars be damned. they were trite and cliched pieces of sentimental garbage. you guys complain about paul ws. anderson on here constantly, but at least the guy makes no bones about the kind of films he makes. hollywood doesn't go around sucking his dick and handing him oscars. but, i'd rather watch alien v. predator a million times, before i watch million dollar rip off one more time. man, i hate paul haggis...
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. . . right after American History X.
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One - I don't know about anyone else, PwnedByStallone, but the reason I hate Crash is that it has no characters and no story - things I think are pretty important to a good film. What it has instead are a bunch of meat puppets wandering around and spouting Paul Haggis's horribly naive and simplistic opinions on race relations. Also, it's absurdly contrived. Also also, it's painfully smug and condescending. Also also also, it has all the real world social relevance of that song 'Another Day In Paradise' by Phil Collins.Two - CaptainGilgore: "Munich - the kind of bloated self-important film that people vote for to make themselves feel smart." I'm not rushing to Munich's defense here, but that is the exact reason Crash won an Oscar.Please all feel free to disagree and whatnot.
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I fucking hate Crash with every ounce of my soul. Fuck Crash. Fuck it. Fuck it so hard. It's just a dumbed down version of Magnolia with simplistic racism pseudo-bullshit. To this day, I am still upset Magnolia did not win Best Picture and Crash did. Fucking seriously. God damn it.
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Didn't we alread get a profound and insightful look at lesbian life with Kevin Smith's "Chasing Amy?" Pffffft-snicker-giggle.
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I don't understand why everybody thought Crash was trying to rewrite the book on racism. It had a very simple point: All of us are racist, whether we like it or not. That's it. That's all. And to that end, it succeeded.
Franklin, I didn't think Crash was self-important at all. I thought it was much more about entertaining than enlightening. And at least if you didn't like it, you didn't have to sit around for an extra hour feeling absolutely miserable. Munich (and just about every other movie these days - but that's a topic for another time) wasted a whole nother hour of your life (hence its 'bloated'-ness). -
Ok. I hear you. A lot of people feel the way you do. I don't. I can understand you not liking it because you feel it's contrived, but to say it has "no characters and no story" is utterly ridiculous. It happens to have many plots that intersect each other and if anything the characters are too defined. I'm not saying the movie is perfect, and I'm not going to debate you endlessly because I just don't care enough. I'm just saying I really liked the film for what it was, a finely crafted and strongly written film about the human condition as it relates to a caricature of race relations in our society. That depiction of racism may not be realistic in a literal sense but that was the point in my opinion. It's so outrageous that it provokes raw emotion from the audience. But it IS actual emotion, and that is rare in film I think. I totally get that people have reacted negatively to that aspect of the film and it's not their cup of tea, but to me it was a satisfying experience.
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and this terrible flick will probably get an oscar win too with the white guilt limo libs in hollyweird
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They cry out to be stung!
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even though it was a bit too much. NYPD Blue did a better job on the rasism thing, though.
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Films can really divide audiences. I saw Crash and, honestly, could not understand how any right thinking person would enjoy such a flimsy, ham-fisted attempt at social commentary. I was embarrassed for everybody who was involved in its making.Thing is, plenty of people love it, so what the hell do I know? Also, it got that Oscar, which still means something (I think).Different strokes and all that, I suppose. Have I mentioned that I liked Fantastic Four lately?
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I realized RIGHT after I fired off the e-mail that Brian Helgeland wrote that. Oops.
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would just make them worse. What a terrible suggestion. Good art always spotlights problems, and rarely does it present solutions.
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His take on the whole "tootie/natalie " dynamic is priceless.
As for CRASH, may people forget that most Holywood types NEVER WATCH TELEVISION. They don't know that the American public has been exposed to racism, sexism, homophobia, aids, rape, etc etc over the last 20years. Talk "racism" to some member of the academy and they think of "IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT" not Sipowicz on NYPD BLUE. Thats why they loved BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN. It was new to them. They didnt know television has been delaing with all sorts of gay themed programming for years.
Now if you can tell me that Haggis wrote the last line in CR, then I will love him for ever
Stay classy. -
I liked "Crash", but what ever moviesor tv shows he did or will do, he will always be the guy, who did one of my favorite tv shows of all time: Due South. Thank you.
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I now look at it as the Academy's apology for not nominating Spike Lee for director and "Do the Right Thing" in 1990. To steal from George Will after Reagan won in 1980 ( “it took 16 years to count the votes [of the 1964 election], and Goldwater won.”), it took 16 years for the Academy to recognize Spike Lee's message in "Do the Right Thing."
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Teens getting tortured then Moriarty would love it. Throw in a couple retarded pirates talking about naming things and Haggis would've had Moriarty's ass for life.
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My God I have never seen so much pissing, complaining and moaning like this outside of a video games forum.
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Haggis’ awful dialogue + messages getting rammed down your throat
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Haggis - which is also an unappetizing Scottish dish - stacks the deck in his films like a card sharp who doesn't even try to hide his shenanigans and doesn't care if you notice that he gets nothing but kings and aces while you get twos and treys. "Million Dollar Euthanasia Movie" gave its heroine such a crappy family, that WE wanted to kill her to get her away from these losers. Who would want to live as a cripple with this family? Ergo, TIME TO DIE!!! Then there's "Crash", a steaming pile of liberal pornography in which a rich, white guy who lives in a gated community fantasizes that everyone is a seething racist - everyone but him and his liberal pals, that is - who goes around screaming racist epithets in the face of other race members. This feeds the need of his target audience of self-hating rich, white folks (like him) to feel scolded for their "white skin privilege" while not actually suffering any reduction in their quality of life. Of course, this hits the happy joy spots of the Hollywood community who cope with their guilt for their affluence by pretending to care about "the environment" and "Darfur" when these same people had cows over being asked to pay taxes on their goodie bags which were worth more than what the average family takes home in two years, but they got for showing up and reading lame scripted banter off a Teleprompter. Liberal hypocrisy is an oxymoron, I know, but Haggis is a leading hypocrite along with the likes of Michael Moore. Screw him!
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How did Crash try to take chances? It was dumbed-down, typical "Anti-Racism" dredge we've been hearing since childhood. It brought nothing new to the table, didn't present any insights that changed any minds or opened any eyes... If I didn't know any better, I'd think you were a typical Extremist who thinks that the world is ignorant of its myriad of problems. Because, really, in the end those are the only people that Crash worked for: Self righteous jerks who are, themselves, blind to the ugliness of society.
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Racism is bad. Unless of course it's directed towards the Chinese. Then it's comedy gold. Most overrated movie of the last decade.
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Crash shouldn't have garnered any awards. I think collectively Hollywood read the plot synopsis, but didn't actually watch the film. There was no substance to it. Not only was it completely unrealistic portrayal of racism in America, but I think it may actually have had the opposite of the intended effect on its audience. It should promote tolerance and understanding, but I think it only spread more hatred. A much better look at racism in the US is American History X. That story seemed very real to me because the characters were so well developed. That was a sad, powerful story.
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"The House of Yes", the "House of D" and all the other bad pretentious titles of movies that help to kill said movies at the box-office. This title is awful, Paul, change it, please.
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Why I Like Paul Haggis
1. Canadian who has influenced Hollywood (e.g. Jim Carrey, Cameron)
2. Created "Due South"
3. Gave Joe Pantoliano one of his best roles as "Jimmy Murtha" on "EZ Streets"
4. Created "EZ Streets", which could be looked as a forerunner for "The Sopranos", "The Wire", and "The Shield"
5. Wrote for and produced "thirtysomething"
6. Co-Wrote "Letters from Iwo Jima" with Iris Yamashita, helping her to get established as a screenwriter (particularly hard for an Asian woman to be able to do in Hollywood)
7. Did some good work on "Casino Royale" such as the torture scene with the swinging chain
8. Wrote the great scene in "Million Dollar Baby" (yes, there is one) where Clint Eastwood cries in front of the Catholic priest->Pauline Kael/Armond White can kiss my ass if they don't think Clint can act
9. If he puts his mind to it, Haggis can create a complex, complicated character such as the best character/performance in "Crash" -> Matt Dillon; we get to see in his scenes that he is not simply a racist police but a human being with ugly and good in him
Why I Despise Paul Haggis
1. Scripts become "Haggised": reduces complicated situations into cliched screen writing claptraps
2. Example #1="Million Dollar Baby"
-Hilary Swank is like saint Joan of Arc in the boxing ring -> all of her opponents go down in like one minute or at most two rounds
-Swank's mother/family are among the most hateful, vile and despicable cliched stereotypical plot points I have ever seen; they are not characters but truncated "evildoers" trying to hurt Hilary; as Joe Williams, St Louis Post-Dispatch, said, "if there was a NAACP for rednecks, they would have sued Haggis"
-Destroyed the original short story more measured approach with Swank's family when she is paralyzed; in the short story, the family visits more than one time and are not seen as the "Disneyland loving, white trash, welfare stealing" maggots that Haggis portrays them as
3. Example #2: "Crash"
-the best criticism about "Crash" came from William H. Macy when he was promoting the film version of Mamet's "Edmond": "Everything that is good about the movie comes from the directing and acting while everything bad is situated with the writing"
-neglected to write complex characters other than Matt Dillon
-wrote embarrassing, cringe-inducing scenes such as when Terence Howard takes Ludacris for the joyride or Ryan Phillipe kills Larenz Tate
-the ridiculous scene where the Iranian shopkeeper does not know that he is blanks in his gun; the implication that a foreigner would not know how to properly load a gun is almost xenophobic
-the ridiculous scene with Sandra Bullock hugging her only friend, the Hispanic maid
-the ridiculous scene with Cheadle's drugged out mother thinking that he was "the bad son"
3. Created "The Black Donnellys"
4. Created one of the most boring female characters in Bond history,Vesper Lynd, though he had help from Eva Green -
with the defibrillator in the car and then GOES BACK TO THE POKER TABLE? Yeah, that was ridiculous, in the WRONG MOVIE, and then is followed by Bond crashing his car out on the road, another silly moment. Bond doesn't crash his sports cars. Bond is not BAD-ASS, that's not the character, not the franchise. He also shouldn't be fighting a Predator, which will probably be the next thing all of you 14 year-olds will demand. Casino Royale sucked, period, and Campbell's obviously gay because he didn't show off the bodies of his women at all.
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Hate to break this to you but everything you said makes you a white supremacist. Congrats you fucking asshole.
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The year Crash won with the exception of Good Night and Good Luck, and each of those other films were leaps and bounds ahead of Crash in terms of quality. Munich had problems, and so did Brokeback Mountain. Capote, I thought, was excellent. Anyway, Crash is pretty much an afterschool special. Haggis is a hack, though he apparently can't be all bad, because Casino Royale was pretty damn good (though there is some cringe-worthy dialogue, like that 'armor' bit). But yeah, Crash sucked balls, and I'm sure this flick will, too.
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Did it 'teach' me anything about race relations? No, and why would I want it to?Is it contrived? Yeah, but so was Laurel Canyon.Was it well-acted and enjoyable? Absolutely.
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Especially if one person thinks they're arguing about the Paul Haggis film, and the other one thinks it's about the David Cronenberg one.
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Not Gwen Stefani's best but, heck, it's got a driving beat.
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In the name of IndustryKiller. Sounds like this person has a grudge.
Oh and this person also seems to be an expert on racism as well as being a movie critique. Just what we needed... wait... to hear a violent personal tone in his words.. hmmm... sounds like someone needs a bit of therapy of their own....
"Then there's Crash. When Crash won best picture it took every ounce of my strength not to throw my television out the window. To make matter worse to this day I still hear philistines talk about what a wonderful examination of racism it was. For the record it isn't" -
Casino Royale was entertainment. Crash (and allegedly "Valley" herewith) is lecture writ large on film. I've said it a billion times (literally, though it was a high speed computerized loop recording, barely audible to the human ear): I can go to church anytime I want. I can go to political lectures anytime I want. I can go the movies anytime I want. But I don't want church at the movies, and I don't want to be lectured on politics, the environment, that "not so fresh feeling" - none of that. I go to the movies to be entertained. If you make a movie designed to preach anything AT me, I'm going to hate your movie. If you can trick me into learning something while you entertain me, that's better - but if you get sloppy and talk down to me, I will hate, hate, hate, hate, hate you and your movie.
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There was a huge round of applause in the 400 seat theater at the end of this screening @ the Arclight.
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Do you hate Haggis because he has achieved enormous success while you have not? What problem do you have specifically with P.H.? He's a talented guy who deserves the accolades he's received.
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"Did it 'teach' me anything about race relations? No, and why would I want it to?" You'd have to ask Haggis that one, as every behind-the-scenes work for Crash has him going on about his self righteous mission to spread awareness of race relations in America. The point is, Haggis thought he made a powerful, important film. Now, thanks to the Academy giving it best picture and glowing praise, he'll continue to make similar movies with a similar agenda. I'm not hating on you for liking it, so don't look at it that way. If it comes off like that, I am sorry; certainly not my intention. But the opinion stands: Haggis is a preachy jerk who makes over-simplified garbage.
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was terrible.
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This movie is not Crash.. .The Black Donnellys isn't Crash either. Get over it.
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Eshtabilo.
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Please.
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Thought I mightcompare it to AICN's fave film of all time. I didn't care much for Crash, it was O.K, it was photographed beautifully & there were great performances, I'm just not one for having messages rammed down my throat. it was 100 times better than all the other films that were up fpr the oscar that year. Casino Royale was the best Bond film ever, dunno what the screenplay had to do w/ it though - it's a lot like the book - Bond was a bad ass back in the day...can't remember him running through walls though?!
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The sky is blue? Racism is bad? War is bad? This shaking my entire world-view. Crash is one of the worst movies I've ever seen. By the end I was laughing so hard, I almost fell off my couch.
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What is this man supposed to be some sort of super genious. Who really expects a solution for a problem that society has? Who really expects to find the answer in a movie? Books, music, movies and games are at their best when they provide a snapshot instead of some overtly preachy answer that everyone will not agree with. There wouldn't be powerful conflicts if one man behind a camera can solve society's ills.
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What film should have won best picture that year? Brokeback Mountain? Nope. Capote? Nope. Good Night, and Good Luck? Nope. Munich? Nope. Call Crash the best of the worst, I don't know. Still deserved to win against those films.
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My humble opinion, in no particular order: The world is in quite a fix these days, with the exception of LA, where it would seem their greatest problem is...uh...racism? This is apparently a message with a lot of resonance in LA, and one they've never heard before. Here in New York we have bigger problems to worry about, you know? Ignoring the hackneyed script, the melodramatic acting, the deeply, comically contrived plot; the central message of Crash is so blinkered, so provincial, so simplistic, it truly is comically bad. You know when assholes like Bill O'Reilly complain about preachy liberal Hollywood tripe? They're thinking of shit like Crash. As a liberal, who does recognize that prejudice and racism are still active and destructive forces that shape the world and the horrible political situation we're in right now, preachy dimwits like Paul Haggis do the cause absolutely no good. Also, homeboy's a Scientologist to boot; that's right, he believes in Xenu, the evil overlord.
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"What film should have won best picture that year? Brokeback Mountain? Nope. Capote? Nope. Good Night, and Good Luck? Nope. Munich? Nope. Call Crash the best of the worst, I don't know. Still deserved to win against those films."
All of those films were easily better than Crash. Brokeback Mountain was beautiful and subtle story and represented everything that Crash wasn't. -
will be extremely insightful and subtle, and far more than a collection of poorly written character types engaging in totally unbelievable situations
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'Cause you better step up to the plate and defend your boy, Haggis.
'Cause he's the scribe that sucks! -
Jun 06, 2007 1:33:25 PM CDT
"a Haggified version of an Ashley Judd crime thriller"
by det. john kimble
You sir, are my new hero.
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That film saddened me, really perplexed me...I loved the Iwo Jima sequences and was moved by the prologue of the film and the real life snapshots at the end of the credits but damn that zigzagging editing method between the island and the post island raising war bonds sequences - topped off with supporting elder characters doing a sentimental PRIVATE RYAN look at the war - was the nail in the coffin for the film. It's very frustrating, the film should have been linear and spent the first half detailing Iwo Jima - 35 days in hell - we only see tidbits of, and damn the supporting cast og young actors was completely wasted. That film could have been genius if it wasnt for the narrative and editing flaws ---
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Munich, though flawed, was far and away a better movie
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I loved it. It wasn't shallow and it was fucking fantastic. While I admit that I liked Munich even more, Crash is not an embarrasing Oscar winner.
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You've changed my mind. Crash was fucking fantastic. If you called everyone cunts your point would have been made even better.
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The guy who wrote (or co-wrote) Million Dollar Baby, Casino Royale, Mystic River, Crash, Flags Of Our Fathers and The Black Donnelly's vs the guy who (co-)wrote Masters Of Horror episodes Cigarette Burns and Pro-Life, and whose script to a Mortal Kombat sequel was allegedly so bad that he and his writing partner's services were no longer required, something that also happened on the remake of Ride With The Devil according to what I've heard. And have you read that Amusements script? My God was that thing awful. Yeah, given a choice I know whose name would be more likely to get me to part with my hard earned out of the two...
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for the mentally enfeebled.
For those of you busy sucking this guy's cock, please allow me to remind you that he's one of the co-creator's of Walker, Texas Ranger.
Fuck him. -
WTF are you talking about? I used to think that there was no lamer ad hominem attack that a self-hating liberal asstackler who guzzles Haggis' spoo could hurl than "If you don't like 'Crash', you're a racist who is in denial as to how racist you are", but you have apparently set a new low in rhetoric. How is calling out Hollyweird's all-talk-no-walk hypocrisy which publicly lionizes the poor and downtrodden while privately despising them make me a white supremacist?!? It's like the dearth of minority Oscar winners being blamed on SOCIETY when the actual awards are being voted on by the ACADEMY who apparently don't want to recognize non-whites. Don't lecture the public for your failings, you pompous pampered gasbags!!!
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Didn't write Mystic River. At all. He had nothing to do with it. I know Industrykiller has addressed this error, but some people are still repeating it.
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And you can tell it isn't the work of Haggis by the fact that Mystic River was actually a good movie. Casino Royale notwithstanding, Haggis is preachy and manipulative.
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I hung up as soon as they said Paul Haggis. Out of fairness i would not take part in testing his films, as they are not made for people like me. Because I have a functioning brain.
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So everything else is forgiven.
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from 1977. Its about a possessed car that takes like 5 days to drive 40 miles. Every ten minutes a car (usually a police car in fact) explodes. The climax involves a handicapped man being attacked by the car. A++++ all around.
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I am no Haggis apologist. In fact, I pretty much hate everything else he's ever done besides Crash. But I don't get every single person here's argument about why they hate Crash. Supposedly to them the only point was: "Racism is bad". That's not what the movie was about you fuck-fucks. It's about how we're all fucking racist. About how this new world makes us feel bad for even a fleeting thought generalizing about another race. I think that's pretty fucking interesting. That no matter what we do we can't NOT be racist. I don't even know what I can call races anymore. Can I say Mexican? Is that okay? I heard that I can't say the word "oriental" anymore. It's racist. This is the new ultra-sensitive world we live in. That's what Haggis was commenting on. That=interesting to me.
lazynogoodnic - Crash was not afraid to go big when the moment called for it (Shoot Little Girl scene and Matt Dillon saves Girl In Car scene). In a world where every independent film plays it subtle, I thought that was refreshing.
Now I will give this to you Haggis-haters. That guy is the single most annoying fucktard out of any director I've ever heard talk. He has that whispery know-it-all voice that makes me want to slam a hammer down onto his skull. So, if that's any consolation...
Oh, and Morariaty should not be able to have an opinion on anything after some of the movies he's supported on this site. And props to the poster who pointed out Morariaty's dreadful writing credentials. -
Mori doesnt like it when you say you dislike Cig Burns!! Prepare for his wrath!!!
Actually if Mori is reading this, I told you I'd let you know what i thought of ProLife when i got around to seeing it (I dont have SHowtime) when it came to DVD (and i bought it, enjoy yr check) - it was better than CB but still didnt work for me overall. I really liked it up until the monster stuff. I think it worked better without the supernatural elements (so more precinct 13, less ghosts of mars). and i have no idea why perlman would forget all about his daughter for a while in order to torture a guy. 3rd times the charm maybe? -
To award a long meandering boring movie an oscar? I don't know if I agree with that logic. -- Casino Royal royally sucked. Why people liked that movie is beyond me. "Oh let's play some poker. Okay, now let's leave for awhile. Oh wait, let's come back and play some more poker. Wait, let's take a break. Okay let's go upstairs. Now let's go back and play some more poker. Oh, I'm having a heart attack. Luckily there is a heart attack stopper conveiniently set up earlier in the film. Let's go get it. Okay, good. Now let's go back and play more poker. Okay, done playing poker now. Wait a minute! Done playing poker?? But that's what the whole movie has been building up to. It's the plot! The movie is called Casino Royale! I know, but now we're going to add another hour that has absolutely no point - you know, in order to keep the audience guessing." Brilliant script! Brilliant!
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My bad, dunno why I got that in my head, I blame...someone else...probably. Hey, at least they both start with an H. Um, yeah, anyway...
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sucks.
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LOL! Nice retort to Mory.
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If I knew what that was I'd be insulted. Knowing you, Grand Wizard, probably a racial slur.
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You could break almost any film down to something that simplistic. What's more, Brokeback was really good until the cop-out of an ending. But that's still way better than Crash (oh, and speaking of endings, Crash had one of the worst endings I've ever seen. EVER.). In fact, while you're breaking down movies into simplistic plot points, try it with Crash. "Character A interacts with Character B. Character A crosses paths with Character C. Character C is related to Character B. Etc, etc." What's more, Crash takes place in a city of millions and in ONE GODDAMN DAY. Contrived? You betcha.
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Great line, IndustryKiller. But I don't understand why anyone expects Haggis to have solutions to the world's problems. I never understood the Crash hate. I knew from the moment I saw it, a month before it came out, that it would be the best movie I'd see all year and I was psyched to see it win Best Picture cuz it was totally deserving. Now everyone bitches about how the message was forced down their throats. C'mon, gang. What else should've won that year? Crash was amazing. As powerful as any film I've seen since I started doing this. Brokeback and Munich were a clear 2-3 that year. Haggis is fucking good and anyone who busts the guys balls is just jealous of his tremendous talent. Whether you care for the guy's writing or not, there's no denying that he knows how to deliver those epic moments that strike a chord and hit just the right nerve. Thandie Newton being pulled out of a burning car by her rapist? How can you not be affected by that scene? Michael Pena giving his daughter an invisible cloak. That's what movies are all about. Crash is the wrong movie to cry foul about. And as a non-fan of the Bond franchise, I have to agree Industry, that Casino Royale kicked ass. I don't know whether that's Haggis' fault or Daniel Craig's but I loved it. The character reinvented itself and someone deserves credit for that because before Haggis came along, Bond was a total lost cause, in my humble opinion. Elah is up there at the top of my list and I wouldn't be surprised to see it back in contention come awards time. Tommy Lee Jones, despite having one of the worst reputations amongst members of the press, is a great actor. Just rewatched NBK-DC last week and TLJ is great in that film, even when he's picking his nose during an American Maniacs commercial break.
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The Three Burials Of Melquiades Estrada.. It was very reminiscient of another movie whose name scoffed at brevity, Bring Me The Head Of Alfredo Garcia.
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The other two writers of Casino Royale were Neal Purvis and Robert Wade, who originally turned in the script which the producers got Haggis to rewrite. These visionary screenwriters were responsible for such gems as The World Is Not Enough and Die Another Day.
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The same formula is now taking place for Bond 22.. Purvis & Wade turned in a script that Haggis is rewriting probably this very moment.
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i hated it before it won anything except some fellow schmucks' money. Boring, contrived, pretentious beyond belief, and not even accurate! Rapper guy says a black guy would never be caught dead in Sherman Oaks... I assume he is excluding all of the many (among other minorities) that live there? And sorry, I dont ever feel the need to crash my car into someone to feel something.
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That year I wanted Brokeback Mountain to win and thought Munich was perfect, but I hadn't seen Crash by Oscar night. So I didn't hate it yet. Once I did see it however I couldn't stop laughing through the whole thing. It was a hilarious comedy. That will be my litmus test of another human's worth for all time. And I love what Spandau Belly said about Bullock and Danza. That slow motion close-up of the fallen phone had me in stitches and tears.
Now in this movie, since there probably isn't a Korean character named Kim Lee, I'm gonna go ahead and guess there is one named Abdul Hussein. The only way I'll see it is if Haggis has a cameo as a suicide bomber.
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everyone watches it, feels the manipulation in all the right scenes (some mentioned above), sees the DEEP and BROODING mood, and all the harsh "realities" of racism being tackled, and they walk away feeling like they've just donated to a charity. I find this to be a neauseating concept on film. that if you tug all the same heartstrings that hollywood does in a classic, overwrought big budget drama, but you do it with an ensemble cast, a lower budget, and you "tackle" a sensitive subject, you get a free pass. and you don't have to make a legitimately good movie. there is no "there" there."the girl was shot! oh, god! oh, no wait, she wasn't. oh, whew, I feel so much better! it must have been those bullets the woman bought. oh they were blanks? oh thank god. how clever!" blech!!!! it's reprehensible storytelling.and not to mention Paul Haggis (Walker Texas Ranger) is a vocal member of the Church of Scientology, which spent the majority of its existence pursuing a VIGILANT policy of racial discrimination against black people in american and abroad. they now have a smaller black membership than ANY other "religion", even mormonism!Crash is the shitty wine that the party host that serves you, while she tells you it's the good stuff, because she thinks you don't know any better. and if you love it? well...it's still shitty wine. perhaps you love it because she TOLD you it was fantastic.Kenneth Turan summed up Crash perfectly:
"I don't care how much trouble "Crash" had getting financing or getting people on board, the reality of this film, the reason it won the best picture Oscar, is that it is, at its core, a standard Hollywood movie, as manipulative and unrealistic as the day is long. And something more.
For "Crash's" biggest asset is its ability to give people a carload of those standard Hollywood satisfactions but make them think they are seeing something groundbreaking and daring. It is, in some ways, a feel-good film about racism, a film you could see and feel like a better person, a film that could make you believe that you had done your moral duty and examined your soul when in fact you were just getting your buttons pushed and your preconceptions reconfirmed."so true. anyone have an answer for that? or is the Franzia so yummy that you can't accept it's not Syrah?
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"Thandie Newton being pulled out of a burning car by her rapist? How can you not be affected by that scene?" I can say I wasn't affected by it because I just didn't buy it, the whole movie just seemed way too full of coincidental moments for it to come across as realistic. I didn't hate Crash, but I don't see why some people love it so much and thinks its a great movie.
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Scores! With an assist from Kenneth Turan, BadMrWonka pretty much summed up why Crash is a terrible film.
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I was told there would be big cock and brownies.
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Clearly that man did not see Breach, The Hoax, Zodiac or Away from Her. Especially Zodiac.
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Most of Haggis` other work was great, though. FUCK HOSTEL
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Jun 06, 2007 5:54:32 PM CDT
I would like to put a small disclaimer on this review
by industrykiller!
Something I should have done in the review itself, and I feel kinda bad for not doing. We were the very first audience to see this film. It doesn't come out until September and as such this was a fairly early work print. In fact there were only two scenes or so with music in it. I have a feeling that upon release this could be a very different film. There is certainly a lot of editing and cutting to be done. I wanted to say this because as an artist it must be incredibly frustrating for some guy to see a piece of work that isn't even done and then go on the internet and trash it to everybody. Although I feel one is well within their rights to review a work print I think it should be made clear that it is in fact a WORK PRINT a full four months away from release. Four months where they will be doing nothing but editing and I have no doubt eventually a much tighter film. But that said I'm not rescinding anything I said about the version I saw. I did in fact feel it was preachy, had very little tangible messages to say, and I still wonder why he decided to go down the crime drama route. It would have been a much better, effecting, and enlightening film had he simply made a movie about a couple going through the horror of losing both their sons (another son who died in combat is briefly mentioned but never seen) to a war they previously believed in. Just had to get that off my chest.
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A totally overacted and oversimplified take on racism.
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I don't really care. Crash was ok, Casino Royale wasn't. Well...
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Mirajeff, buddy, I assure you it's not Haggis's writing I'm jealous of. His money maybe, but not his writing. I by no means think he is a horrible writer, but in his films excellent scenes are often followed by the most nut twisting of cliches. Preachy cliches, that scream at you from metaphorical pulpits. I would say he's an infuriating writer rather than a bad one. I mean I don't think there is any denying he has some great characters in him, he's just got really bad ones too. And saying Brokeback Mountain and Munich are second and third is just...well that's just silliness. When I said Haggis doesn't present solutions what i meant by that was he doesn't present a reality that allows us to construe our own solutions. And that is EXACTLY what Brokeback and Munich did in spades. They presented complex realities which after viewing, at least on some level, you had a better understanding of yourself which leads to a better understanding of the world they paint. And that world happened to be unequivocally the one we live in. Crash on the other hand paints a different world. now I live in LA, and i think it is a bit of a racist city, but the degree to which Haggis portrayed it was like the wild west. There is one good line in Crash, something like "Everyone in LA is so lonely the are just crashing into each other for contact." That's a very true statement. And he would have gotten his point across much better if he had just stuck to telling simple stories about the city of LA rather then elicit tales of racism which climaxes with the one decent guy in the city killing a black man in cold blood. And what was with Tony Danza? And Mako if there is anything I'm bitter about it's the crappy movies that Hollywood insists on giving us. I live in LA yes but I havent been here very long, certainly not long enough to be shaking my fist at an industry that has done me any sort of personal wrong, although there of plenty of people here who could and I wouldn't blame them. One of the funniest things here is the assumption that I gleaned my handle from the assumption that I fancy myself a "killer" of the film industry. That I see myself as some sort of crusader against the dark zeitgeist of the studio system. Sorry to break it to you but nope. If the reality of why I started using that that name was revealed I think alot of you would laugh. I was using it long before I started posting on this site with any sort of regularity. I assure you it's pure coincidence that the moniker fits so well with the subject matter of this site. If you want a hint, let's just say that in high school my musical tastes weren't exactly refined.
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I loved the movie and indeed do not stand the adversity towards it either.
Two biggest beefs seem to be: the topic of racism is simplified and it is preachy.
What was simplified about it; I have yet to hear an example?
The guy is preachy: you mean he's actually convinced that the topic of racism is an important one and feels the need to bring that accross?
Movie history is filled with movies that try to make a statement about the society the director lives in.
So he overdoes it, is too forceful about it, pulls the heart strings to easily?
Well, one could argue, if he doesn't the movie would have been called, propbably by the same people, "watered down", "devoid of emotion", "soulless crap", "not having the balls to take a stand" etc.
I would only feel the movie to be bad if it indeed is a misrepresentation or generalisation of an issue that in reality is way more complex.
If that's what Haggis is guilty of with Crash, could some of you Crash-haters give me some examples where and in what way in your opinion he did this, because up to now I haven't really read any solid arguments to support that opinion, except stating that he did it.
By the way, the Scientology membership doesn't exactly thrill me either, but that in itself is not enough to hate a particular
movie, unless the movie would contain any of the lunatic ramblings believed to be gospel by that very particular group, allthough ... I laughed my ass off with Battlefield Earth.
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I was unprepared for the barrage of horrible new age music to signify to me how important everything was supposed to be.
Crash is the ultimate movie for the Oprah crowd. And shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Munich. -
Damn, this forum should have some editing functionality. I didn't mean to say "stand" in the first line but "understand".
IndustryKiller just beat me with posting his respons to MiraJeffs post and gave me some detail why he thinks it's simplified.
He mentions the one good cop killing the black man. I didn't perceive Haggis' message there to be "See, they're all racist basterds", but more "We all live in fear of who or what we don't understand and fear can have terrible results, even the best of us that have good intentions." Or is that a simplification in itself?
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The problem with both the conservative and liberal ideologies is that the loudest voices and most prominent faces are fucking retarded caricatures of the values they narcissitically preach about.I am strongly against the current crop of faux "conservatives" and yet I have to hear bastardizations of my arguments come out of the gaping maw that is Rosie O'Donnell's mouth. The fat bitch even blamed Bush for 9/11. Thanks, cunt.My point is that while Haggis is a preachy fuck who makes awful movies and perfectly represents the Hollywood liberal that DOES exist and is EXACTLY as bad as Fox News would have us believe, it doesn't make everything he argues against correct.
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Charlize Theron in a catsuit. Oh wait, that's Three Days in the Valley.
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How about Sandra Bullock is a racist, until she falls down some stairs and her maid shows up to comfort her and she sees the error of her ways. That's like a fucking Full House episode right there.
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Finally somebody here gets it.. it's not really about the racism, it's about moral ambiguity and that under the right circumstances, good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things. Good and bad aren't exactly boolean.
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"You think you know who you are, you have no idea."
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The only reason I didn't shut the movie off right away was because Esposito laughed at it. If only the rest of the movie pointed out its own stupidity, it might have worked.
p.s. If I crash into someone around here, it's not because I want to "feel" something, it's because whoever installed of the traffic lights assumed no one would ever want to take a left. -
B/c they were shitty drivers, and not because they have emotional problems.
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I had a good time watching it, but come on people! This is not "the best Bond in the entire franchise". I can understand how people who hated all the other Bond films would like Daniel Craig's brand of working man Bond, but don't tell me you liked most of the 20 preceeding films and felt that they were leading towards a this cinematic achievement.
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I've been pulled from a flaming car by my former rapist and it's nothing like in 'Crash'.
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Vox I can give you a perfect example of the simplified racism in Crash. It was the moment the movie totally lost me. William Fichtner (the DA's assistant or something) and Don Cheadle (a cop) are alone in a room with Fichtner asking Cheadle how to handle a potentially volitle race relations situation. Don Cheadle tells them they might just have to take this one on the chin, Fichtner stops, thinks for a moment, then says, "Fuckin black people".....to the black cop standing right next to him, whose help he just asked for. He then goes on to try to get Cheadle to understand that black people are, in fact, problematic. This comes out of absolutely nowhere. I think that's a pretty good example. I'm not saying things like that don't happen, but Haggis makes them happen all at once, to one group of people, who are all connected....through racism. And to bitterman: Touche. WHat the fuck is with LA having no left turn lights? I hope some city planner got fired for that shit.
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Espositos titties, you know it to be true
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I only saw it once but thought it was an okay movie with a handful of fantastic moments. That being said I absolutely loved Casino Royale. And it has to do with everyone involved. Including the writers. the dialogue between craig and green on the train when they first met, just quick witty stuff. that sums up all the writting in that flick. love it.
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Your synopsis of "the Sky Is Blue" is still the best thing on this TB.
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Crash: Yeah, sure.
Munich: Knock, Knock.
Crash: Who´s there?
Munich: Go fuck yourself!
Munich should have won best picture...MiraJeff, how many times did you watch Crash? if I may ask.
Seriously I like Crash it hit the right notes where MiraJeff pointed out and I´d even go far out as to agree that´s what movies are all about...in terms of how to build up a story and that´s just it. Don´t get me wrong I thought it was a powerful movie. Although I think those epic moments could easily be strong without the racism plot but I can admit it may not be as powerful but I cant help but feeling that the movie was a bit preachy because majority of the people have already accepted that the racism is bad really really long ago even I can´t remember anyone ever telling me once that it´s bad to hate other skin colors I just knew so I´d rather settle for Remember the Titans for an anti-racism movie.
I guess that´s why for me it didn´t hold up for the 2nd viewing whereas I can watch Munich several times just for music composition, the lighting, the acting and the camera movement and still enjoy the hell out the whole movie and I think everybody can agree that it´s clear that Mr. Spielberg loves making movies on every level. For Munich he puts the movie and the audiences a ying and yang´ness because it leaves something for you to discuss and wonder. In many ways Munich is a better movie than Crash and should have won best picture...well that´s just my opinion.
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Jun 06, 2007 11:48:47 PM CDT
not only were Brokeback and Munich 2nd and 3rd to crash
by captaingilgore
But they are a DISTANT 2nd and 3rd to Crash. Munich is an absolute mess. Spielberg even admitted if he had more time he would've cut it dramatically. And there are so many long boring pretentious scenes in the movie that I fell asleep. Brokeback Mountain was also long yet slightly less boring. But the thing that that movie is remembered for is not its quality. It's one line. "I can't quit you". Or whatever the fuck the line is. That's what you remember Brokeback Mountain for. And that's not enough to win an oscar for.
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you also need a pretentius, manipulative Scientologist that created Walker: Texas Ranger...Oscar gold!!!
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But yeah, Crash is a great movie. The hate, go figure, directed towards that movie is stupid.
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and you know it... he told all the issues in Crash so well... and all the etnic groups living in LA and Hollywood were represented... and fairly too. Paul, you can do no wrong, email is momalicious@hotmail.com ---
chat with me dude. -
...in the modern sense of bad-ass. He's a SUAVE OPERATOR. He's got amazing skills, can kill in a second if need be, but he's not a BRUISER and he's not a commando. He plays Baccarat, not Texas Hold 'Em. The parkour sequence was okay, but the defibrillator and all the mistakes and falling so hard for the little girl were just ridiculous. Bond is not made, he's BORN. End of school.
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I love his work and I love CRASH. Haggis had his hand in a Best Picture contender three years in a row with this year's LETTERS FROM IWO JIMA, and that's a record for those of you keeping track. But then writing two consecutive Best Picture winners is a record, too. The man is fucking brilliant, haters be damned.
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if the Oscars are your sole arbiter of taste...I truly feel for you...the man created Walker: Texas Ranger, let's not throw around the "brilliant" baggage to liberally. Scientology can buy anything..and when you throw in a manipulative indoe film that makes people think they've seen something deep (when it's wading pool shallow)...and you got yourself a best picture! don't forget the Academy puritans who weren't ready for Brokeback Mountain.either way...the argument that the Oscars = validity, is a weak one, to say the least...36 Mafia anyone?
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So it's just *black* films, films that relate to black folks, and the soundtracks of black films that you dislike, Mr. BadWonka?
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You don't know Bond. If you did, you would know that he wasn't born a cold-blooded killer, he was made into one.
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Loved it the night I saw it. Besides, the Oscars may not be a great judge of film quality, but who the fuck are YOU to be the judge? Sure Haggis wrote "Walker, Texas Ranger." Fuck did YOU write?
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I eat it up like crack (can you eat crack?). Just thinking about that fucking movie winning best picture gives me the dry heaves 2 and a half years later. Thank you IndustryKiller for letting me know that Haggis' next film is more of the same, so I will not be fooled again. Want to see a real meditation on contemporary racism? Watch The Wire. Want to see a great film about the Iraq war? Well, Vietnam ended years before The Deer Hunter and Apocalypse Now, so it's probably gonna be a while.
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He fixed the pilot script up a little bit for a friend and has been branded with the closing card on the main title ever since.
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Other than the Russian roulette scenes, that movie is boring as piss. The opening scenes at the wedding reception are loooong as fuck!
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Crash beat 4 vastly superior films 1 1/2 years ago, not 2 1/2. My mistake. (2 1/2 years ago Million Dollar Baby beat 4 vastly superior films)
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and just like that, you lost me...throwing non-sensical insults around is a sure way to convince any intelligent person that you're not interested in a rational discussion...
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you also fell back into that old simpleton TB'er tactic. "you can't have a critical opinion of Paul Haggis, because he's written a movie and you haven't!"weak minds think alike...I'm going back to work
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I don't think it's weak to ask if you have a certain dislike for black films when the only two things you dissed here were CRASH and the HUSTLE & FLOW soundtrack.
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People are sheep apparently.
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All the ethnic group were represented fairly?! WTF?! The Asians may as well have been pieces of amphibian shit in "Crash." Daniel Day Kim's one line slave trader; the Korean lady Esposito's character crashed into-bad Asian Driver! And of course the docile refugee slaves Ludacris felt sorry for so he bought them all chop-suey! Treated Fairly?- sure if Haggis got his views about Asians from Chuck Norris' 80's films starring Soon Tek Oh.
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that's how the Hollywood elite sees the rest of Los Angeles beyond their gated communities, executive offices and Il Sole. The great unwashed are at each other's throats, poor wretches. And frankly, Don Cheadle annoyed the shit out of me!
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I think you are on crack, my friend.
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People are sheep for hating Crash? Isn't it possible the movie was just such a pile of shit that the mere mention of its name makes people angry? Call hating it stylish or trendy if you want, but the movie was a travesty, and a great many people regret having wasted their time on such a movie, myself included.
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Funny, that's how I feel about your post, as well.
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casting Kirsten Dunst as Mary Jane Watson makes me angry! Crash is not an R-rated afterschool special, it looked more like a rejected pilot for a proposed series on FX.
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I was at that screening and I want to know which one you were, INDUSTRY KILLER... so please answer as I was in line and I took a good look who was around me. Were you the overweight rocker guy who brought in three hotdogs and two large cokes (all for himself) of which you spilled on your faded black, now light grey Aerosmith concert tee you got back in high school 22 years ago when you told everyone you were going to grow up, move to Hollywood and be a filmmaker and show them? Or were you the wiry little guy with the manicured goatee (flavor saver and all) dressed in your best cargo shorts, button up tommy bahama shirt and birkenstocks topping the whole ensemble off with the wiry little glasses you think look like Morpheus' in the Matrix? Or were you the stubby little french guy standing in line with your mother who kept commenting on how good your comb over looked and that maybe this would be a good opportunity to meet a nice girl? OR were you the 98 year old lady wearing a MINI SKIRT who, by the time the movie was over hacked up all of your left lung into your popcorn tub? Which one were you? I'd like to know, because that's who that damn screening consisted of. And the rest of you shit talking bitches. C'mon. Do you guys even live in Los Angeles? I want to know how many of you live in LA. Show me hands you fucking pussies. Until you've lived here, you don't know what it's like. And until you spend more time in the streets and less time at your computer in your fucking studio apartment in Deerfield, Michigan, (or for those of you who do live here, the fucking valley) you have no credibility. Crash was whatever, I don't give a fuck really, but what I think is sad is how you douchebags who have these gay little names you write your reviews under, probably have fourteen scripts you've written but can't get even the lowest level of literary agents to read it, fuck, you can't even get your piece of shit friends that post on this site too to read it because the shit you've written is so fucking bad, Jean Claude Van Damme wouldn't be interested five years from now. So what do you do? You attack a guy who is successful, who has put in more hours at least having a craft than you have masturbating to porn (which is almost impossible), you attack all of his scripts, the television shows he's made, his religion, his hairline, his fucking car, whatever the fuck else you fags can come up with, behind some pussy ass name like industry killer, (and I just scrolled up and read your half-assed explanation of your "moniker" and where it kind of came from and all I have to ask is, who the fuck sticks with a name like that for the past 22 years?) and you post on here rather than actually doing something that anyone would even give enough of a fuck about to criticize much less wipe their dog's ass with. You guys, with your bad breath and your gastrointestinal problems, fuck you. I saw In the Valley of Elah and I liked it. I didn't like Crash all that much. I didn't like the Black Donnelly's at all, but I liked the Bond movie and I think Bond's a bigger douchebag than IndustryKiller. I liked Million Dollar Baby and I tell you what, I liked In the Valley of Elah. I don't think IndustryKiller and I watched the same movie. What I saw was Tommy Lee Jones' character trying to find the truth about what happened to his son. Sorry the military is fucked up in many ways and sorry people are fucked up in many ways and sorry the war is fucked up in every way and sorry that everything is more fucked up in this country than it's not fucked up and sorry this was based off true events. Sorry for everything IndustryKiller... as you are actually the only one who has seen the movie. I guarantee that most of you haters, if you saw it, you'd actually like it. I used to live next to Camp Pendleton in an apartment complex filled with Marines, but decided to move after I came home one night and my building was taped off because the Marine living above me decided to drown his baby because it was crying too much. Sorry for that too. Shit is fucked up. IndustryKiller, you're such a killer, please keep writing your fifteenth script nobody will ever read and keep talking about your myspace page you just put up for your action movie and the youtube channel you're going to distribute it yourself with. Keep dreamin' while trying to stomp out others dreams, keep working while others are doing real work. Keep on keeping on you genius. And before you fucking plant fucks or whatever the fuck fucks start saying it... no, I"m sorry, I don't know Paul Haggis and, no, I don't work for the studio and blah blah blah. I'm just a guy who loves movies who actually thought this movie was very good and am just sick of fucking shitheads who act like they're quarterbacks going out with the head cheerleader talking shit. I hated that jock mentality, attack everything, everyone is a pussy, mentality in high school and I hate it now, but since you fucking pussies are acting like it I figured I should too. Fuck you guys. Keep on losing.
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Jun 07, 2007 2:45:37 AM CDT
Can we get a moritorium on "boring" and "pretentious"
by industrykiller!
I don't think there is any bigger cop out in describing a film than calling it boring and ESPECIALLY pretentious. Boring is just too vague to hit the mark. Boring is a five cent description. There has to be a REASON why something is boring, why the story isn't involving. State that rather than just saying boring. Where the characters poorly portrayed? Was it meandering? Was the outcome obvious and therefore the rest of the film boring? Details people. And man oh man has pretentious got to be the asshat buzz word of the decade. Something is artsy? Pretentious. Doesn't have enough action. Pretentious. Conveys a message? Pretentious. Uses words that are too big? Pretentious. I don't care if you are talking about Crash, Brokeback Mountain or whatever, pretentious is a bullshit charge. unless of course you are talking about Gus Van Sant's Last Days. Now THAT was fucking pretentious ;)
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Nothing to make me change my mind, though. So far, only CaptainGilgore has presented any kind of valid argument beyond 'the acting was good' or 'it looked pretty' or, best of all, 'it was fucking fantastic'. I take my hat off to you, CaptainGilgore, even if I don't agree with you.Someone above said everyone in the film gave career-best performances, which actually made me choke on my tea. Here's a list for you, buddy:Matt Dillon - Drugstore CowboyTerrence Howard - Hustle & FlowDon Cheadle - Out Of SightBrendan Fraser - Gods & MonstersMichael Pena - World Trade CentreJennifer Esposito - Summer Of SamWilliam Fichtner - GoThandie Newton - Gridlock'dRyan Phillipe - Cruel IntentionsChrist, even Ludacris has done better than Crash (see, again, Hustle & Flow). The only place you might have me is Sandra Bullock, who I only ever really liked in Speed.All in all, I think we can agree that if we want an interesting and insightful film that has something valid to say about racism, we should all be watching Do The Right Thing. Not Crash. Jack Nicholson was right.
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Guys Bow Timmy just summed up in a paragraph what I took me a whole review to write. If you want to know the ultimate message of In the Valley of Elah allow Timmy to demonstrate. "Sorry the military is fucked up in many ways and sorry people are fucked up in many ways and sorry the war is fucked up in every way and sorry that everything is more fucked up in this country than it's not fucked up and sorry this was based off true events. Sorry for everything...." Charming Timmy. And eloquent. Charming and eloquent. I suppose you got that charm and eloquence from living on the "streets" though, and fuck how can I compare to that? I can't and I won't. You're so tough Timmy, I wish I could be like you, from the streets and all. And I gotta say, YOU should be a writer (you know the profession you assume I'm in) the way you describe all those characters that were at the screening. It's funny though about the lady who apparently coughed up my lung is that I don't recall anyone coughing in the movie, let alone repeatedly enough to hack up someone else's lung. And about your comments to the rest of the group about actually living in Los Angeles and how it's "different" when you do? Allow me to enlighten those that aren't fortunate enough to live in our little metropolis in the sun.....it's exactly how you think it is, only the traffic is worse, much worse. And unless Timmy is living in a crack den in Compton he's having the same experience as the rest of us. You're suspect my friend. But you are completely correct about James Bond being a bigger douche bag than me. I met him at a party in the Hamptons once and he's just an incredible prick. Limey bastard.
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Is like calling them Xenophobes because they didn't like Alien Vs Predator.
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You are both heroes among men. You, me and every other man woman and child on earth who saw Crash for how laughable and condescending it was are brought closer to each other by our mutual disdain for this sub-par movie. And because some of you seem to have forgotten -- the Oscars are a joke that are less than meaningless when it comes to guaging the enduring quality of a movie.
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Hmm, heard some examples but none of them convinced me really. One tb'er here mentions the Sandra Bullock scene where after she falls down the stairs she suddenly isn't racist anymore (in the way she treats her maid). I don't think that was about that at all. I think the crash, pardon the pun, down the stairs and thén finding out there's really noone she can reach out too (hubby and girlfriend calls) sort of makes her wake up to the life she's actually in, that the only person she can really talk to is the woman doing her housework; it's not so much about racism as it is about being so closed off from the world, so disconnected, you live in fear of every moment you might get in touch with it (as she did with the car jacking).
I think, and that's what I liked about the movie, that the movie isn't at all about racism, but simply about people being disconnected from each other and the world around them and the devastating consequences this can have. While not exactly a new insight it's nonetheless a crucial social phenomena in our times, and dare I say especially in the US.
The consequences of losing touch with the world and the people in it and living in your own glass bubble as a person, as a nation, we can see on a regular basis: when it happens to a person, you get Columbine, Virginia Tech; when it happens as a nation, you get a war that actually everybody knows is pointless and yet it continues.
You think what the hell does this have to do with "Crash".
I think a lot, but obviously I might just be reading into things. -
You made me cry.
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I liked what you wrote up there, VoxMillennium. Some nice thoughts, well articulated, and I actually agree with you.Problem is, just having those thoughts does not make for a good film. You have to convey them artfully, skillfully, with some measure of sensitivity, and using the medium of story as your vehicle. You have to create believable characters the audience can engage with. And if you have a message, you should get it across with subtlety while also being dramatic. It's a difficult trick to pull off, and in my opinion Mr Haggis failed to do that in every way possible. Honestly, I found your post more affecting than his film, which was ham-fisted and embarrassing dreck.
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Dude... is that all you could come up with? You're a bonehead. I own you AND the streets... AND your birkenstocks... fag.
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I understand what you're getting at; I guess I was more forgiving to the writer as I perhaps considered the message indeed to be more important than the way it was given form.
I do concede that the writing at times may have had what I usually call 'the subtlety of a chainsaw', but I gues I preferred that against some watered down tiptoeing around the issue.
I must say that everybody I personally know, was very moved by the movie, so I guess the sledgehammer approach worked for some.
To summ things up, I see your point, but the lack of subtlety to me was a minor annoyance compared to the dramatic impact it achieved, I guess in spite of it, and in my mind certainly doesn't warrant the level of hatred directed at the movie, even less the man, on that basis anyway. -
Sounds like Paul just rewrote and resold that 1996 Ed Zwick/Meg Ryan movie, "COURAGE UNDER FIRE." IndustryKiller is dead-on and Haggis is a sitcom writing swipe.
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Crash is what movies are all about? I don't think so. I like movies, for lots of reasons but, to me, Crash is really quite indefensibly bad, on so many levels. All those scenes you mentioned: twaddle. Simplistic, gobshyte, manipulative BOGUS twaddle. Shallow. Utterly without depth. Crash isn't merely bad it's utterly frigging awful. Impressive to those who've given not a nanosecond of thought to the vast complexities of human interrelations in their lives. And the carjacker who carried around the effigy of the Patron Saint of Travellers or whatever-the-crap it was in his pocket, like that's something that might actually happen in real life (the way the whole movie reflects 'real life') and isn't some kind of simplistic plot device (!)? What a load of maggot shit that was. "Oh, but, see, he's really a *good* boy. And he loved his momma. Not like his brother the cop." How *deep*, how *complex*. Jesus, what a spectacular mucus-blast of turgidity...
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I don't think people hate a movie to be "stylish"...we hate the movie because it's a contrived, phoney, condecending piece of shit film.
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oh, whine whine. everything in Crash was so manipulative. They manipulated me with the preachy dialogue and music. Cry cry. Let me let you in on a little secret. EVERY FUCKING MOVIE IS MANIPULATIVE! That's the whole point of movies, to manipulate your feelings and emotions! Every set chosen, every actor chosen, every color chosen, every editing decision, every line, every song, THEY'RE ALL CHOSEN TO MANIPULATE YOU. So if you're crying about Crash "manipulation", then go complain about every single movie ever made.
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the only ethnicity not living in&arround Hollywood,LA is jewish people... I am not from USA so that was very informative to me... I need some more geography lessons I guess...lol! I love this very amazing film! Ta ta until later!
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Of course all films are manipulative, but what makes a story work is when that manipulation is skilful and artful. When it sneaks up on you, and you aren't aware it's happening. In our lives, all of us can try to be manipulative if we want, but it takes some talent to really pull it off. That's why some guys get all the chicks and some guys don't.For example, is it more moving if the emotion of a scene catches you off guard and you find yourself getting all choked up because, damnit, you actually came to care for the characters you were watching, or would it be better if R Lee Ermey appeared at the side of the screen and yelled 'YOU WILL CRY NOW!' in your face.That's Crash to me. It's R Lee Ermey yelling 'AND HERE'S ANOTHER THING I THINK ABOUT RACE!' every five minutes.
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Our soldiers DO kill and torture innocents in Iraq and elsewhere, and are just as capable of atrocities as people from anywhere else in the world. We need more people to understand this, rather than sticking "support our troops" magnets on the backs of their SUV's and waving their American flags. I hate preaching, but welcome it in this case.
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It was a fabulous film that obviously made Americans angry because the mirror it held up to the nation presented too accurate a representation of what the country has become.Guys, just because the film offended you doesn't mean it was a bad film; it probably means it was a very good one judging by the intensity of the hate it has seemed to engender.
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Thanks, Pdorwick.Way to ignore the many points made, on both sides of the argument, in this talkback.
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...since they don't seem to make much sense at all.Not only did you miss the point of the movie but you seemed to be completely ignorant of the skill with which it was made. Actually, you're arguments seem to prove my point: sorry the movie made you so mad.
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just to FEEL something.
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happyman23? How about angryman23?Pdorwick, you have such inescapable logic. You are the man.
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While I do think that Crash wasnt that well written, it had decent acting. However, Flags of our fathers was such bullshit. That movie was so fucking confusing. It shouldnt have had the part with the old war veteran talking to the other guy. It was just fucking awful.
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I'm glad my comment could do for you what Crash did for me.
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Every disgusted or bewildered look I got from someone after telling them I'd actually paid to see Brokeback Mountain told me a hell of a lot more about the discrimination we still live with today than Paul Haggis could accomplish with 1000 hours of film. And I'm no Brokeback fanboy. I liked it, didn't love it. What I really don't get is this mentality that somehow Haggis is off limits. Guess what? Not everybody who hates his movie is a frustrated writer and (shocker) every single one of us can name at least ten writers currently working in Hollywood who we absolutely love. But hey, that fucker got a movie made, we must all want to see him burn for it. Grow up.
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honestly Brokeback Mountian wasnt that good of a movie ( it looked nice lol...it was filmed 20minutes from here)But Crash was a hundred times better.
Whats with the supreme hate-on ACIN writers have with Mr.Haggis??? -
The HD-A1 freezes and crashes just to feel something.
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"Why would I want to see any of these movies? two that are sympathetic to terrorists, and two that are sympathetic to homosexuals."
This man also writes letters to Bush and has anncoulter.com bookmarked. -
It's the sort of thing that would make a funny SNL sketch. "THIS MAN IS HANDSOME! THIS MAN IS THE HERO! HE DOES NOT HAVE VERY MANY EXPRESSIONS BUT YOU WILL SYMPATHIZE WITH HIS PLIGHT!" And later: "THIS GUY IS UGLY! HE IS THE VILLAIN! I WANT YOU TO HATE HIM WHENEVER HE IS ON SCREEN! I DON'T THINK YOU'RE HATING ENOUGH! WATCH HIM SHOOT A PUPPY! Doesn't that make you angry? Are you angry now? Are you really angry at the puppy killer? NOT ANGRY ENOUGH GODDAMMIT!! GRIT YOUR TEETH!!!
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Best Talkback rant EVER. Not that I agree with everything you said, but I appreciate the time put in and the lack of spelling errors and such. And for all you Bond purists who are judging the character by the Ian Fleming books, let me just spare you the energy now and tell you that no one reads those books, they watch the 19 FUCKING FILMS that have been made since they were written. And THAT'S what they judge the character by. And wasn't he married in the books, anyway, and his wife was killed? That's a helluva lot more believable motivation for becoming cold-hearted than dating Eva Green for three minutes. Hate on, nerds.
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it's not too hard to spell "fag" properly, or to regurgitate the old moronic talkbacker fallback point, "you can't insult anyone that makes movies unless you have made a movie!"it's the most senseless argument ever, but they always seem to go for it like flies to shit. the only good part is, whenever I hear it, I can pretty much give up on that particular talkbacker, since I know useless slobbering drivel is all I'm gonna see for them. and in Bow Timmy's case, no exception. I live in LA, and believe me, there are morons like him here, who think "you're a fag" is a legitimate argument...but there are idiots like that in any city. he's just useless.
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if you didn't grow up in LA then you probably don't understand Crash. If you are a transplant living in LA you probably will hate Crash because you think LA is Robertson and 3rd. LA is sixth and western, a mini mall blazing with LAPD batons beating homeless women. LA is a city full of hate and Crash was amazing. Don't hate my hometown or a movie that gives you a real sense of what it's like to live here. go back to Texas.
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in Casino Royale. I only saw it in the theater so I can't check.
btw, I was at that screening too. I think Bow Timmy was the gymnast. At least I think he was a gymnast. He had his head all the way up his own ass. I guess Haggis' ass was occupied. -
R. Lee Emery is welcome to provide such a commentary track on the HITTER DVD.Oh, and Hitter has just chosen HD-DVD because of a nasty shootouts at the docks against Blu-Ray left his partner paralyzed.
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fag... faggy... fagarooski... where do you live? The valley? Where do you work? More importantly what do you do because it's not what you'd like to be doing? I wanna know that Baddy Boy so please tell me. BadMrWonka? Even my name rules over yours. Bow Timmy, bitch, cuz I own you. Even your "uselss slobbering drivel" was cliched, useless slobbering drivel. And no, you can't insult anyone that makes a movie YOU HAVEN'T FUCKING SEEN because a) YOU HAVEN'T FUCKING SEEN IT and b) the one you did see, CRASH, you didn't like. And you can't insult the person because why the fuck would you want to insult the person you dipshit? Criticizing movies aren't about insults you fuckhead. So, you accuse me of falling back on an old arguement when you fall back on the oldest arguement there is, hey, let's attack the guy personally. Let's attack everything about him, his religion especially, you sure didn't leave that out in your posts... come on, that arguement is so old... Who gives a fuck what religion he is. I don't, you're beloved Kenneth Turan doesn't, who by the way loved IN THE LAND OF WOMAN and hated your beloved 300 so he really is someone no one should give a fuck about. I'm baptist, you gonna hate me cuz I'm baptist? You're such a piss poor excuse for the intelligent debating you so easily accuse me of lacking. EWWWWWWWWWWWWW, MrBadWonka, you're just another shithead living in the valley who is not, in any way, smarter than me. So now... Bow Timmy, bitch.
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Gymnast... not funny. try again.
Bow Timmy, bitch.
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I don't hate the "message" or "theme" of Crash, at all. The thing I can't stand is the pendantic script, bland, ham fisted direction and the choice of music. Some of you seem unable to understand this distinction. Saying I have to live in LA to appreciate it, is like saying I have to live 1950's Mexico City to appreciate Los Olvidados. Saying "you don't get it" is a pretty juvenile argument. I get it. trust me. I just don't like it. And so you don't get confused.... I admire the theme, just not the movie. Understand?
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Los Olvidadowhat? Okay, you got netflix, you're smart. You get it. Or do you?
No... you don't have to live in LA, but you do have to like Crash. It's a law in LA if you live here and everyone on this board who lives here, all two of you, you are breaking the law and the LAPD is comin' to getchya!! -
You didn't make your point to mr. brownstone. Please end all your posts with "Bow Timmy, bitch." No one can dispute you on these boards if you do.
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It's the answer to anything and everything. Fuck Yeah.
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What is that some kind of gay party game? Or is it wishful thinking for some of the guys on this message board? What the fuck?
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and if you're anything to go by bow timmy, I don't think I want to. haha. but seriously man, your hatred for humanity makes Mike Leigh look like Richard Simmons. I don't have netflix, but if you do rent Los Olvidados. It's a good movie, you'll hate it. To be honest, in a way I envy you, it must be very liberating to be a clinically diagnosed bi-polar schizophrenic.
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why did I make you cry?
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I was crying with laughter. It's all in good fun my man. Or is it?
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it is all in good fun... I was just messin with you about the netflix comment. I kind of couldn't resist. In the Valley of Elah is not Crash... people are going to be surprised. I'm just not one of those people to say I hate LeBron because he didn't score as many points as he did last game and then attack his race, his religion and everything else about him because even though he played great this game. Paul Haggis made a very good movie. I'm not going to let my feelings of Crash or anything else, good or bad, deter me from seeing what was in front of me. And what I saw the other night was great. Crash was the first movie he directed... It's not his fault it won the Oscar.
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I was there too and saw it. You're right, it's not his fault that Crash won the Oscar.
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C'mon, he's probably the most respectable Scientologist in Hollywood right now, so let's see him bring L. Ron Hubbard's MISSION EARTH books to the screen! Hoo-Boy, that'd be about 35 hours of fun for the whole Dianetic family!
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There's nothing like getting into a discussion with someone who puts his own opinion of what you're saying ahead of, you know, what you're actually saying. Very refreshing.I'd talk to you some more, Pdorwick, but I see Spandau Belly had posted and I'd like to respond to him. Nothing personal, buddy, it's just that Spandau Belly is funny, interesting and reasonable, whereas you are... well... not.You take care, though.
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All we would need is a green screen, one afternoon of R Lee Ermey's time, and a selection of phrases for him to shout in his best Full Metal Jacket yell. Here are some suggestions:"HITTER DOESN'T FOLLOW YOUR STINKING RULES!""NOTHING STOPS HITTER WHEN HIS MIND IS MADE UP!""HITTER THINKS HIS BOSS IS A GODDAMN PANTYWAIST DESK JOCKEY!""THIS SCENE OF HITTER DRINKING IN HIS VEST WHILE HOLDING HIS GUN SYMBOLISES THE LONELINESS HE HIDES DEEP DOWN INSIDE!"And so on...It's actually a pretty good idea, along as Mr Ermey can actually be seen at the side of the screen while he says (sorry, shouts) these things, much like those late night programmes with sign language people in the corner.
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Sorry, you didn't follow with your cute little sign off.Fluff my pillow, drippy whore.
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