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Michael Moore's SICKO begins popping up all over...
And here are some posters that have popped up, courtesy of the good folks over at Cinematical.
Hey folks, Harry here... Below you'll see two YouTube pieces on Michael Moore's SICKO - a film that has had praise from both liberal and conservative reviewers, by claiming that Michael Moore's film is a balanced attack on both Republicans and Democrats regarding the outrageously inept reality of the U.S. Healthcare world. Both parties are guilty of the terrifying reality of healthcare in the U.S. and it seems that Michael hits both. Here's an early preview...
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site is acting all funny tonight.
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...watchout Moore, Al Gore might stop hitting on you at parties.
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roll out and into more scandalous debate...
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and Micheal Moore just gets people POed he doesn't really do anything for anyone. Just riles people up.
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And who cares what "conservatives" and "liberals" weigh in on this? Do we need their opinions to validate our own?! IMO, this guy tends to skew the facts in all of his films to suit his agenda, good or bad. These aren't documentaries, they're Op-Ed pieces disguised as balanced journalism.
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Who would win in a pie eating contest?
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Insurance is the oldest racket there is. I used to investigate claims against insurance companies and the shit those greedy bastards used to pull to avoid paying claims was amazing. And the medical community and healthcare providers are in on the scam too. I don't know if SiCKO will help open some eyes and help change things - probably not - but somebody needs to take on these pricks and expose them for the thieving fucking cocksuckers that they are. Lord knows Congress will never do anything about it since they are whores bought and paid for by the lobbyists for the medical and insurance industries. Dicks.
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It's really funny because a lot of you are.
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As much as I loved Bowling I thought Fahrenheit 9/11 was WAY too anti-Republican. It was practically propaganda. So, good, I like his documentary style so I wanna see an unbiased movie by him.
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So, what? We're all supposed to move to Cuba now? The United States is STILL the best and most free place to live on the planet!Call me when Moore makes a "documentary" that isn't geared to make this manipulative rich fat cat any fatter off his audience's gullibility. His donating ALL of the profits from this film to the Red Cross would be a start...
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I'm sure it'll be entertaining and I may well catch it (absolutely no pun intended)on DVD. Plus he's fat. Michael Moore's fat and he eats too much food and doesn't know when to stop eating because he likes eating and so that's what he does. He eats. Heaps. He's gonna need that same health care pretty soon. Because of all the stuff he consumes. Really fat guy. It must hurt his chest to slouch forward slightly. Is that what the "Moore" stands for? Moore food, please? He's hungry all the time and can't stop eating because he's upset that the world is in pain. He eats when he's upset and when he eats he is taking the food away from the starving poor children and causes them stomach pain and their pain gets him upset and so he eats and gets fatter and cries into his custard tarts. You better believe he had dessert the day of the Tsunamis. So much pain in the world, so much cake in his tummy. A fat man, indeed. Plump and not pretty to look at because he's fat and he eats to much.
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he saw the world divided into pairs of opposites: and last night, I was saying to myself. Holy God, the heavier burden is Lightness. And then. more real. Than our Lives.
My life is lighter than air. -
...and I thought Jabba the Hutt SOB might've been a bit harsh...
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even the canadians booed it at cannes. i mean, wow.
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the best place to live. It's one of those European places. Sweden or something. I read it on Wikipedia. I know, they don't even speak English there... crazy. Besides, I live in Australia, been to USA and there is NO WAY on the planet that USA is better then here! We're awesome.
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but the United States is awesome-er-est! ...or something... :)And that Wikipedia entry was obvious hacked by some jealous Swede.
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You have a clown as a president and yet you continue to defend and support him.
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Just accept it..........
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Me, my whole family, and all of my friends have jobs that have great health care benefits. Sorry if I don't see the huge crisis.
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That the USA isn't all that great. In the intelligence stakes that is. http://tinyurl.com/39l8lz
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May 22, 2007 12:12:32 AM CDT
Actually the film has done phenomenally well at Cannes
by industrykiller!
True story. And to Jimmy_009 above, me, some of my family, and a metric fucking ton of my friends don't have health care. And before you take cheap shots it's not because we are all a bunch of lazy slackers who don't have jobs. So you'll excuse me if I'm more than a little interested.
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If you have capital than you do not have much to fear in regards to making sure you have doctors kissing your ass. Moore is an idiot and the Cuba fiasco proved that he thinks all the rest of us are too. Try going to Havana as an American and getting cheap good heathcare. Good luck.
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...uh, at least, uh, hmm, what was my point?
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gotta love the guy. he never lets you down by either spouting hilariously inept opinions of movies and television, or when that is not an optin, simply spouting of horibbly insensitive and moronic statements.this is a guy who said "the constant gardener" lacked drama...(he's a little slow)but he's great for laughs. I love ya, big guy!
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They are after all French, and they enjoy eating shit and calling it a delicacy. Pansy ass Frogs. Les Français sont des lâches
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May 22, 2007 12:26:30 AM CDT
Why provide health care when you can buy more bombs?
by flim springfield
And some people call Michael Moore the crazy one.
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Moore...um...did exactly that in the film...
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(how Orwellian) so you can bomb the shit out of every foreign country, rape their natural resources and get lots of coolie labour into the bargain - all for the benefit of already fantastically rich but you're the only country in the western hemisphere without socialised medical costs despite being the richest country on the planet. I can't believe you lot put up with this.
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We could have it all...healthcare, education, welfare, social security, roads, bridges, parks, flowers and Bluebirds chirping...as long as your ok with giving Uncle Sam $8 of every $10 dollars you earn.
Shit costs...free healthcare isn't really free...someone has to pay. Some people may be willing to do this? Some not so willing.
It really is that simple. You get what you pay for. Pay more for health insurance or pay higher taxes, that's the choice.
Those who benefit the most will be those who arn't so fortunate, and those less inclined to work.
Those who earn money will foot the bill. It's how the system works. It all boils down to how much do you want to pay?
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People seem to think that this 'best place to live' argument is a competition between Australia and the US. Uhm...have you guys heard of Canada? Yah, thats right, start making fun of the 'EH' and the freaking maple leaf flag. But dudes, thats the WORST of our problems. Can you say that? Eh?
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have a look at Canadian Healthcare. Really, google it. You won't actually believe a government can do that...
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There is no shortage of damning stories about why the US health care system is broken. But if those clips are indicative of the material that More has gathered for his film, then he has made an uninteresting film that doesn't show us anything we don't already know.
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That sounds like a made up story.
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jimmy009 is still a dipshit, though. sorry big guy, but you know it's true.
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Canadian healthcare meets American capitalism...it's a place called... AMERIDA! Still, one of my favorite SNL clips, with Kevin Nealon playing Brent Musburger by pulling the corners of his eyes down. Good times.
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It;s too bad that it will take a movie like this to change things, but if in the end things are changed, then that is all that matters. We really have a problem here.
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He evidently slobbers all over The Great White North's health care as perfection personified. Yet, this does expose everything wrong with America's healthcare system. Sounds good to me.
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I don't know if you dumbasses who say "I have great health insurance at my job, so I don't see a crisis" realize that EVERY company is cutting back on their health coverage. My company is one of the largest book retailers in the world, and our health care has dwindled down to next to nothing (discounts and minor reimbursements) unless you're a store manager or in upper management. My wife's health care has been slashed three times since she started it, and it's barely even useful now. We both have worked for decades now, putting out money and time into the system, paying taxes, and contributing to society. We're repaid by the insurance companies making premiums so high and health care industry making prices so high that our employers opt to lessen the coverage? What's that shit?
Neither of our employers covers optical, dental, or prescriptions, although they do offer "discount programs" and reimbursements of less than half of what we spend on these things (which of course requires we have the money up front to pay for some unexpected procedure).
What I'm getting at here is that I'm an assistant manager and she's a general manager for our respective companies. We're not low-tier workers, and we've both been at it for many years. If we're having a rough time with minimal insurance through our employers, then I can only imagine what people lower on the totem pole have to contend with. We had good coverage 12 years ago, and it gets worse every year. This is happening all over the country to major corporations. They cut costs by cutting insurance.
What this means is that your company's great insurance that makes you blissfully unaware of the health care problems in this country will not always be there. They owe you nothing. They can cut the amount of care you get without further notice. They can raise premiums without asking your approval. They can switch health care plans-- even drop insurance altogether-- without so much as a care for your wellbeing. Don't count on that great insurance to be there in ten years. It probably won't be.
I pay taxes. I want my taxes to work toward my quality of life, and that includes health care. If you don't want to use a national health care system, then you should be able to opt out and pocket the savings, but don't prevent other people from being able to see a doctor out of their tax dollars just because you currently have a good insurance plan or good financial situation. -
O.K. George Bush is a fucking moron, and I have no idea why people voted for him, but that doesn't give everyone else lee way to be hating on us Americans. If it weren't for us, half this planet would doing there Heil Hitlers right now. Or bowing before The Emperor. Face it, rest of the world, Where would you be with out us? We're not asking for worship.... but just a little thing called RESPECT! Or decency for christ's sake.
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You spout that shit about everyone doing Heil Hitlers if not for you, and then demand respect. Fuck yourself. You may have helped out at the end of the two world wars, but really we (the English) had done most of the dirty work, you were just our mates down the road who showed up in big numbers to help us out as we were a little bit tired. Look at the results you've had when going into any war you've started since then. Hmm, not so good. You think your involvement in a just war justifies any other war you wish to start. That's why you get no respect.
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And Lost Rules...Whatever man, the US joined in last in WWI and WWII and like to take all the credit. Fuck that.
The Russians and the British did most of the legwork in WWII! Fucking arrogant Yanks. -
him, hey How bout a war? You're Fucking retard STARR! Fuck you! Not England, cause I, unlike you fuckface, don't judge an entire country of people based on one butt foaming idiot. Ireland? You guys did right by them. Right? India? Nothing but love for them, Right England? What about South Africa? Didn't the British treat them soooo well? Your country has more blood on its hands than ours ever could. But you still hate America. Look in the mirror, pal. Assholes like you, killed over a million of my ancestors. Oh, and BTW You fuckers started slavery! Assholes!
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I love how the government tries to block Michael when he's trying to do good things for people, like the 9/11 first reponders. I hope this flick tops his other ones, which sounds like a challenge, but this film will have the biggest audience yet: the average non insured american public!
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One hour of boredom, and nothing. Pass....Pass.....pass.....pass......pass. Jesus Fucking Christ! Throw a chair or something. Beckham is an American, now. How do you dickweeds feel bout that? He couldn't wait to get away from your piece of shit little "Island".
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and other shit. But hey, at least our healthcare is free!
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Soccer is one hour of boredom huh? Hm, that leaves half an hour of explosive action, amazing skill, passionate fans and a sport loved by billions around the world, including America. And with only one break for comercials! You're probably right though I would muich rather watch a game so boring that the fans in attendance have to drink to make it seem more interesting, whilst the fans at home fall asleep during the nine-hundreth ad break.......
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Wow. There depth of ignorance, and stupidity of other countries....staggers me. Oh, well. When Australia becomes part of China or some other psycho imperialistic country, please don't bother us. That goes for you too European Union...I...mean England.
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I love how y'all take the piss out of the French but did you know that it is illegal to work more than 35 hours per week in France AND they get 6 weeks paid vacation every year AND the benefits of free socialised medical care whereas in the "Land of the Free" the average working week is 46 hours with just 2 weeks vacation (and god help you if all that working makes you ill because you won't be able to afford to take time off for the 50 million of you without healthcare) - source http://tinyurl.com/2so8r9. 38% work more than 50 hours per week. That means the French work 1610 hours per year and on average Americans work 2800 hours per year. That's 75% moe working hours than the french. Slavery was abolished 200 years ago - yeah, right suckers!
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You really are doing your country a great disservice by perpetuating the stereotype that all Americans are insular, ignorant idiots.
And I'd like to point out that while your country has bodybags in the thousands coming out of Iraq, not a single Australian soldier has been killed by the enemy over there or in Afghanistan.
And yes, you may have forgotten, but the Russians were your allies in WWII. It was their sacrifice that stopped the Nazi warmachine pushing on into the rest of Europe.
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I can't wait to get out of this country. Mexico,perhaps...
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I dunno if I can come up with the 10,000 fee to become a citizen, though.
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But then I'd have to bow down to Prince Nazi Arm band Harry. I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that. The Queen was a good movie, though.
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yeah, the russians were our allies in WWII and there were 50 of them killed for every American GI (20 million russian deaths versus 400k American). I know your movies have taught you that john wayne won the war single handed but don't think the rest of the world is as brain washed as you are.
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Say what you like about that guy's opinions, but there's a man who knows how to make a funny documentary and present important and interesting issues in an entertaining manner. So, he's biased - so what? Are we not grown ups (most of us)? Can we not bear to hear an opinion we disagree with? I don't always agree with him, but Moore ALWAYS sparks a debate, and that has to be a good thing.
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But I don't smoke. huh. i like cheese alot, though. Good art, Speak a little of it.
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I just did a variation on an AICN running gag, but Kurt Russell smiled so I guess it was okay.
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I promise, I am not retarded. Not seriously, anyway.
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All I'd have to do is join the mafia. I like The Sopranos, but don't most of them get killed?
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And there are people dying... if you care about the living...so something,something....to make the World a better place for you and for me....You and for me......
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We got GRINDHOUSE whole, it bombed, but I still was able to see it twice.....so suck it!
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and he says you guys are artards for pulling out the "My country's army saved your ass in War X" card.
Love Moore's Wit and point of view, let's just hope it's more like Bowling than Fahrenheit. -
It's called Medicaid/Medicare.
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It's called Medicare/ Medicaid. The focus of healthcare reform, IMHO, should be directed at better funding these entitlements, rather than converting our entire system to single-payor (e.g. Hillary-care). The government CANNOT be trusted to run healthcare. Just look at the quality of care in the Veterans' Affairs hospitals if you want a taste of what that would be like.
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Even though he's a little crass, and meadering.
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I'm sorry, but we don't need any of your common sense or practical thinking around here.
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TNSTAAFL, guys. People happily laughing about how the NHS is free forget that the UK is one of the highest taxed countries in the world. Even so, less money per capita is spent on healthcare, which is why we have one of the worst cancer survival rates in the world. Under a State healthcare system, it's the State that decides whether it's worth treating you or not - so people in the UK are denied access to 'expensive' drugs that might help their conditions. Unless they have money, when they can pay for them themselves.
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France is cool...Why do the yanks hate it so much?
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I hate Fox...hiding behind their words and their brain washing. Australia, Canada, Japan, France and Sweden are the best countries! Suck on those testicle shaped rocks!
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this is coming from an irishman who was in canada and then travelled down to Newyork and fuck me if you couldnt tell that you were in a poorer looking country, i swear to fuck i thought id travelled back in time for christs sake, having said that, Ireland blows all you "eh" canadians, americans (90% of which claim irishiness) and you barbie loving ozzys bastards away, why? cause were the home of guiness, simple.
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Sweet. What country will claim the title of Greatest Country on Earth? I love humanity.
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you do realize that free health care comes at a cost right? look at the cost of living in england, look at the amount of taxes you have to pay in france (over 50% last i checked). look at gas prices. if you think $3 is bad in america, france has been paying over double that for diesel for years (look at my name, i am french, ive been there, i know). look it up, its there for the finding. i can only imagine the uproar we'd have if the US decided to take half our paycheck away.
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Where do all the immigrants flock to? Who makes all the new drugs and vaccines? Who makes (almost)all the good movies?
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Is that most doctors simply refuse to accept it, because it would pay them less for their time than they think they are entitled, and also because there's a lot of paperwork and hassle involved. People who rely on it have very few options and are often just plain out of luck. The root of the problem with medicine in the US is greed. Greedy doctors who went to med school because they could make a lot of money, instead of a genuine desire to help people. Greedy drug companies that ponder over how much a person is willing to pay for something to stay alive? How much blood can they squeeze from a corpse before it's dead. If we could find a solution to the extreme greed problem, this would all be over. A national health care system that paid flat and reasonable rates to doctors for their time would level the field and all the greedy types who would end up in med school will go be lawyers instead. There would be less doctors, but the one's we'd be left with would be genuine human beings who care about patients more than their sports cars and mansions.
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is that he's not a documentarian but a polemicist. He's a liberal Ann Coulter. A documentary should present both sides of the argument and Moore's don't. For examples of well-made, thought provoking documentaries check out "The Most Hated Family in America" and "The Life of Kevin Carter: Casualty of the Bang-Bang Club". Though Britain, Australia, and Ireland have all weighed in I think that Germany has the best health care system (and I'm an American). The problem is that America has the highest quality of health care for those who can afford it, look at all the wealthy Canadians who come here for surgery rather than wait in Canada. American political debate has become an all-or-nothing game: allow abortion or ban it, ban guns or give guns to everyone, socialized health care or the mess we have now. The answer is the German system which takes some of the power out of the hands of the insurance companies.
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We have an NHS in Britain and it's one of the few things this country has that we can be genuinely proud of. Helthcare is paid for by the taxes of everyone. And everyone benefits. It isn't perfect, obviously, but it's the best, most fair system on Earth.
Really. -
The second one is COMPLETELY redundant.
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my wife works at a hospital full time is required to have the hospitals insurance has to pay out the wazoo for it. i work 2 jobs and we still cant afford to put me on her insurance so a nhs system would help those like us who do work ( my wife works 40-50 hrs a week and i work 50) to get the health care we need ( i am borderline diabetic but cant get tested or treated because of above mentioned) i hope this movie does well even if it opens the dialouge on how crappy our healthcare is
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If I slice off the tips of both fingers, it wont cost me £35,000 to get them put back on - it'll get done for free. Or, if I have the money it can be done privately through Bupa or some other scheme.
I certainly wouldn't have to choose which fingertip I can keep, thats just barbaric. In Britain we can moan about taxes etc, but at the end of the day, it is definately worth the money. I dont see how it would take 80% tax for the US to have an NHS, then again, blowing shit up is obviously preferable to ensuring your citizens live. I'd rather pay more in taxes than have to fork out tens of thousands of dollars every time I need treatment. All of this Best Country shit can go out the window right now - every country has a past their not proud of. The fact that the UK has far less deadly wildlife than either the US or Australia is the clincher for me - fucking Funnelweb spiders and Rattlesnakes....fuck that shit! The worst thing I want to face is a bee, and I fucking hate them as well. -
an obituary
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He obviously doesnt know that NHS is in an absolute mess or could be joking. he probably is.....
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...But Ireland is the place to be. Hell, every American I know would sell their granny to be Irish. And on topic, Farenheit 9/11 bored me to tears, although Bowling for Columbine was a wee bit better.
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of paying too much for health care! Fucking crooks! Thanks Mikey!
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He's really annoying. HOWEVER, this film will be for the health care system what Inconvenient Truth was for global warming & pollution. It won't be quite as eye-opening to many Americans like global warming was, because Americans go through the BS of US healthcare regularly. But having this film will really expose the outrageous differences between the US health-sytem and other countries; and force people (particularly lawmakers & policymakers) to face this issue and start to make changes. And I don't like Al Gore either, btw.
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Yours is the kind of help that we patriotic Americans really don't need. While I wholeheartedly agree with what I suspect is your bottom line - Michael Moore (generally) sucks, America is a great country, etc etc - arguments like yours do nothing to further the cause and do nothing but serve to reinforce a bunch of negative stereotypes that are UNJUSTLY - and I do mean UNJUSTLY, all of you America-bashers out there - levied against us. Why is it that some people are completely unable to make the case FOR America without bashing other countries at the same time, thus causing folks from other countries to respond in kind, thus widening the rift?
For those of you who think that lost.rules and his ilk speak for all of us, here's a list of truths that you can take to the bank:
1. Despite what you see on TV and in the papers, the vast majority of Americans are not fat, lazy slobs. Americans as a whole are honest, hard working people who take pride in the fact that they get up every day at the asscrack of dawn and do what they have to do to provide for their families.
2. Most Americans are not Xenophobic idiots, despite the coverage you no doubt receive about our current immigration crisis. The issue is much broader than "keep the brown people out," and most of us can debate it intelligently.
3. I spend a great deal of time in the UK and Europe in general (in fact I have dual US/UK citizenship), and the UK is every bit as awesome as America. We can debate the merits of NHS vs. private healthcare all day, but when you come right down to it, I suspect that folks on both sides who are bashing the others have probably never spent more than a weekend, if that, in the countries they're having a go at. (For the Brits: America is not Disneyland. For the Yanks: Britain is not "tea & crumpets, pip pip wot wot!") -
If you don't want any more immigrant just say so. Stop releasing this man's films abroad in some hope to discourage interest in your country.Thank you,The Foreigner
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...please, please, please stop offending people with that "without us you'd all be seig heiling" crap. While it's true that without our involvement the War almost certainly would have been lost, the same can be said for ALL of the Allies, many of whose losses, as pointed out above, were far greater than our own. I'm as proud as anyone about our country's involvement in World War 2, but your brand of blunt confrontationalism is as insulting to me as it is to the people & countries you're attempting to put down.
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can one make documenatries with little to no evidence that supports the demining of their own country. It's amazing how smart libs think they are and yet gorge themselves with this fastfood propoganda without researching the facts themselves. Why will this man never debate inteligent journalists who disagree with his rhetoric?
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...is something ive always taken for granted up until a few years ago when i realised how lucky we are. im 23 now, and totally healthy, but my youth was filled with health problems. looking back made me realise how lucky we are. Healthcare should be completly unbiased. you get what you need, no matter what. No greed, no egos, no division of people... it really is how it should be. course there is financial problems with keeping something like that in working order, but its pretty much as important as things get. the last thing anyone needs to worry about when they hurt themselves of become sick, is how much it will cost them. This site has the occasional American that likes to throw " the most free country in the world" bullshit around ( i know its not EVERY American) well, i like the freedom to know almost nobody has a gun, i like the freedom to know that if something happens i dont need to worry about money. peace of mind is true freedom. The UK is far from perfect, but morally, the ideas are on the right track.
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Doesn't belong here. If you want to link some academic journals and/or actual data from country web-sites, then please feel free to make an argument about X country being better than Y.
Otherwise your posturing just seems insipid. I think I can say that in general, no country is completely 'peachy' in every aspect, regardless of how blindingly shiny its healthcare looks, they have a multitude of other problems which in the end kind of balance out. I think exceptions can be made for countries that are way out of the norm, like in a civil war or under some extreme government- these you can probably say are worse.
Think of it this way, out of the what.. 300 million people in America, someone earlier mentioned 50 million don't have health care. Let's say that figure is accurate. That's 1/6th of the population- i bet you could shave away half of it for people that: have enough money not to need it (small group, I know), will soon get it (bigger group than you think), etc. At the same time take a country like Canada and its people. Distribute the same average misery caused to that 25 or so million in america across Canadians, who have problems such as severely uneven wealth-distribution in their provinces, what to do with quebec, and people generally loafing ("student-teachers": people hired on a conditional basis in higher-education who don't need to be officially certified to teach, just to help fill a gap, now want the same benefits as actual professors). I think it evens out.
We're all people, you know, doesn't that suggest something? I thought the days of extreme nationalism were gone but you know, if your dick gets hard when you think about your flag maybe you should just do us a favor and go have a war with other erection-having people who get a stiffy for another flag, so you fight each other and die off, the world is a better place! But then as I said before, we're people, so something miserable is bound to happen (while good things happen too!). -
I want to live in a world where any argument is instantly invalidated by the use of the arguments - 1) You'd all be speaking German if we hadn't come and saved your butts! And 2) We were fighting the war for years before you showed up and it was the same in the first world war! I know it's a lovely dream world that will never happen but still -
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Can't wait for this. Fuck anybody who doesn't like him you stupid conservative Republican neocon, hypocritical, sociopathic, empathyless motherfucking assholes!
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Hey dumbfuck, if you'd like to start a little war to eliminate all the "wingnuts" as you seem to label conservatives, then in the words of the immortal Judge Mills Lane... Let's Get It On!
You know, for the ideology that is supposed to have tolerance dripping from every orifice of its member's bodies, it can be quite amusing to just sit back and watch the hate spew out any time someone disagrees with liberalism or liberal positions. -
Those bitching about his movies being op-ed pieces and not balanced documentaries should really just shut the fuck up. Moore has never claimed to be a "documentarian." He is an activist but first and foremost, by his own description, a filmmaker who's looking to engage and entertain the audience. So, yes, for the most part he is making op-ed pieces, and that is his fucking right as an American. Last time I checked we still had freedom of speech in this country and there is no denying Moore has an audience willing to listen. So pretty please, Moore haters, with sugar on top, FUCK OFF!
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You are quite possibly the biggest asshole on the planet. What a mroon you are. You don't see the crisis becasue you and your family are insured. wha tare you? 12 years old. It's called a newspaper. Look into it.
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Is there a reason you have a personal vendetta against me? From now on I'll agree with whatever the status quo is to gain your approval. I'll tell all of the other people that thought Constant Gardener lacked drama to do the same. Check out amazon.com or netflix for the reviews. Of course then you'll see lots of people thought the same thing I did. And sorry again if I thought the phrase Harry used was pretty over the top. And to Zerocorpse, why don't you just say you're a bookseller making 10 bucks an hour? There that wasn't so hard. Now finish getting your degree and come join the rest of us. My Health plan hasn't been cut back at all, sorry to inform you. Horribly insensitive BadMrWonka? Boo Fucking Hoo. All the movies you like suck dick. You gonna bitch about that too?
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Looks good. I'm excited about this. I love to see how pissed off people get when Michael Moore enters the conversation. It's good to know you can still offend people by sticking to the issues and you don't have to attack 9/11 widows or something equally egregious.
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The reason you 'see the crisis' is because you hear it from lawmakers who want you to see the crisis. My whole family AND friends are all insured well. I know someone who doesn't have it through work and only pays 150 a month from Regence Blue Shield. Get a fucking clue, I'm not a moron, you're a sucker, there isn't a crisis around every corner.
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American healthcare fucking sucks. It's expensive. It's (mostly) poor quality. It's linked -- utterly illogically -- to employment. (How the hell did that happen? How and why did any company agree to that arrangement in the first place?) It's focused on profitable and largely ineffective ameliorative measures (drugs and surgical procedures) and not focused on unprofitable but highly effective measures (exercise, nutrition and general checkups). Yes, Michael Moore is a whiny tool, but who wants to argue with him on these points? Anybody? Anybody?
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absolutely can't wait
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You don't know jack shit about me you little pissant. I know about the crisis because I live it and see it every day, not from lawmakers you bitch ass motherfucker. I haven't had health insurance for three years now as I've been out of a job after being layed off and "temping" 40 hours a week with no insurance provided. Just so I can keep a roof over my girlfriend's and my head. This may be a shock to you but a lot of people can't afford $150 a month for health insurance.
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on a website that doesnt pay health insurance for its own employees. Happy that the vast money-hungry corporate conglomeration I work for pays for mine.
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but i got plenty of time to surf the internet and post things cuz thats really important to me!"
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Let's see. Lies about the Canadian health care system, which even the Canadian press couldn't swallow. Smooching up to Castro with lies about his health care system. Add to that Moore's exploitation of 9/11 first responders and his brazen violation of the trading with the enemy act, and we see that the fat one has gone to a new low.
Rich Lowry slaps Michael Moore down:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTEyNzA4YmY4Nzk4MTEzOTYyOGM1M2FlOWY3ZGVhM2M=
The Canadians rise up in anger:
http://www.thestar.com/artsentertainment/article/215801 -
Maybe so, but we can still kick YOUR ass - BOO YA!
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Why in Zeus' fat ass name is every friggin post turning into a friggin political debate?!?! A wannabe-political debate that is. What.The.Fu*k.
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Is this the doc that he was going to be making about greedy Pharmaceutical companies? I worked for one when it was announced (giving Monkeys rage virus and putting lipstick on Beagles and making the smoke Marlboro Red) and we were told to be suspicious of fat men asking questions - we were sent an email!
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Apparently, if I want to freakin' LIVE past the age of 30 in this country, I am supposed to hold TWO jobs from what the wingnuts are saying above. They say it would raise taxes, but looking at how much many people are already paying in insurance, I am starting to doubt this accepted thinking.
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Malpractice lawsuits
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You don't have "free" healthcare. You're paying for it in your ridiculously high taxes. You pay the government, we pay the doctor...get it?!? If it wasn't for the U.S. defending the world, advancing medicine, and investing in technology, the rest of the world would find it a lot more difficult to afford their government hand-outs. Don't be so damned impressed with yourselves, most of your "countries" are barely the size of a U.S. state or you have a tenth of the population. Try successfully running a country larger than a postage stamp with your f'ing socialism before you start boasting about your "free" shit. You a*holes love to talk shit about America but you sure love to watch our movies, don't ya?
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is and will always be - Canadian Bacon.
j/k - I'm looking forward to this. I love all of MM's movies. I've met him twice, really nice guy - actually was at a forum where he announced F911 for the first time ever. Really cool, too bad I didn't know about AICN at the time or I would have broke the story. -
and lawsuits in general. many people make good money off of them - myself included.
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Keep em coming Michael! You speak for a lot of us!!!
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Too much information. But the babbling was good. Keep up the babbling.
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We as Americans, we all are governed by a set of rules, you know this, right? Chief among the things these rules of our country grants and assumes are INALIENABLE, meaning, not just true for us, but universally true are the freedoms to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Chief among them? Life, of course. The government baldly states that it is every American citizen's right to live. When did this change? If I get AIDS, heaven forfend, I could get dropped by my insurance carrier quicker than Moore can hog all the pizza. But, in other countries, it seems as though they won't become destitute instead of dying, they have a right to live that we simply signed away. America's ideal is the greatest in the world, our citizens have grown fat, lazy intellectually, off of the largesse and victory of our forbears. Fuck everyone who says that people should get off their ass and work for insurance. What about that kid with juvenile leukemia, ass-tard? What about the poor fucking crack baby addicted out of the womb? Medicare? Look, it's not hard to spend tax money WE ALREADY CONTRIBUTE on Universal Health Care. WE DO THAT ALREADY, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security Benefits, we just allow TOO MUCH of the TAX we ALREADY spend to go to fucking cronies of the political machines (Dem and Republican both!). Soon, it will come down to the rich versus the poor in this country. The class war will begin, and then, you're going to see intelligent, able poor men with their Rights To Bear Arms fucking tear-assing through those oh so cute walled subdivisions, and TAKING what they want. And the rich have done it to themselves.
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so you're bitching about Michael Moore's lies by referencing an article in National Review?? You got to be fucking joking? A neocon rag that only tells one side of every story? The Fox News of fucking magazines? There's a good source. As far as The Star I can only tell you that Canadians, unlike Americans, don't have their heads shoved up their own asses so far that they can't be self critical about their own healthcare system.
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thanks for giving an actual story and something with substance instead of "american healthcare suxxx i r beter", it was a nice read.
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I love everyone equally, but literally, you read the fucking charter for a New American Century with that cut and paste shite. Look, that kind of fucking scare tactic (Social Security is going to fail) is fucking DUMB. Yeah, not going to happen, not for a looooong time so long as we don't fucking break it. If I say, fuck this computer, it's going to break! But I don't mention that i have cut fucking important pieces out of it, or left the caretaking of it to my mentally retarded cousin with knives for hands, then that's an intellectually dishonest argument. Call up a Senator and ask them if they believe Social Security is going to fail, or better yet, ask a middle of the road Republican Congressman. Nah, not going to happen. On the other hand, who would help those who needed it out of the kindness of their hearts, who would take care of the elderly, the sick children if the government DIDN'T MAKE THEM? Fuck the Cuyahoga River had to CATCH FUCKING FIRE because we didn't regulate pollution. Now that we do? No more fucking fires without punishment. Who takes care of people in this magical free market health care system and gives a SHIT about anything but the bottom line? Halliburton? Privatized medical accounts? Don't you REALIZE that a corporation's LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY is to the bottom line? Not to the people they affect with their business, goods, services, pollution, or mismanagement. Man, the free market capitalists cannot WAIT for fucking money to start filling the trough when Social Security gets fucking run through by greedy fucks who believe that God appointed them the fucking elite. Shit, how come every other country on the planet manages to fucking survive...NAY...THRIVE...while we allow the majority of our people to live like fucking retarded chimps? Sweden...they make twice as much as us, they live better lives, more vacation, fuck, they're even going to go off of petroleum fuel for their infrastructure, man! And don't give me this : America's freedom makes it great! Fucking France is free! Sweden? You can smoke pot, then walk down the block and get a fucking ROCKING blowjob from a hot ass prossie, THEN go and have an abortion if you want, and if that's too much fun for you, ask a doctor to KILL you in the bargain. Fucking intellectual retreads in this country are fucking drowning us in debt, fear, and all that other shit to make a fucking buck. The worst part? Our fucking shame got shot right the fuck off of us in Vietnam. You know Thomas Jefferson said that every two hundred years a healthy society would rise up in armed revolution...I'm just saying that those 'let them eat cake' fuckers in the Bush family (referring to Mama Bush's fucking heartless 'they're certainly doing better now' comment about the fucking victims of Katrina) are going to have a hard time of it when the hammer falls.
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Yeah it's politicized and not perfect, lacks some of the right focus, but with the world of entertainment / hype / etc it's probably the best thing that could reach this large of an audience. It still is topical and can help initiate curiosity and so on; i actually have some faith in people's ability to not look at something like this and consider it a way to masturbate to their ideology / party affiliation (i.e. cheering stupidly 'bush suxx im democrat / independent' or 'moore is fat lol im republican'). Some people might see through the fog and think more about healthcare than they would have previously, and that's good right?
A lot of people will see it. You're right though, and I'm willing to bet that if he continues with the same exact thing, he won't last too long. It's still entertainment. -
And what you just said isn't equal in its flamboyant rhetoric? It may not be 'scare tactic,' but i mean come on. I think we tend to idealize other things when we percieve ourselves / our country as inferior- like 'sweden is un-fucking-believably wonderful' because americans are big mac eating, over-moralizing, intellectually vapid, hypocritically religious scum bags. There are a lot of good americans, it's just that there are also a lot of shit bags here too- the thing is, we have a lot of people in our country- 300 million- and they have a small fraction of that. Let them try to include everyone who wants to be a part of their culture and see what happens. I dare any country to try that. Under the circumstances we're doing pretty good.
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Cuban healthcare comes in handy when Castro's jackboot is on your throat. What a filthy liar Michael Moore is. Read the truth here: http://tinyurl.com/28ue66
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I dont talk about this much but my father worked in the irish health service for 35 years. He retired in 1998 when my mother get cancer. When it comes to the Irish health service, i dont tend to believe what i read in the newspapers about the Irish health service because my father was there working at the coalface. The stuff about cavan monagahan was there when my dad was working in the Noth East. I will let you into a little secret. The current speaker of the Dail, Dr. Rory o Hanlon, was the TD for Monaghan. The head of the Monaghan hospital was called__________. He also was on the board of North Eastern Health board. _________, was a friend of Dr. Rory O'hanlon, who was minister for Health, in the haughey Govt. My dad was a Consultant Anaesthetitist for Our Lady's hospital, There were other consultants. But monaghan always got privilige because it was in the minister back yard. There was very little cavan hospital could do about this. Monaghan hospital got what monaghan hospital wanted. When Haughey Had his heart attack on his favourite boat before he died. He was lifted by air ambulance and taken to the mainland where the decision was made about which hospital he should go to. The ambulance crew signalled that they were headed to lukes. and a voice came back on the line saying" Jaysus, he cant go there" so the ambulance crew turned the ambulance around and headed for the Mater. Lukes of course is fine Gael hospital and the Mater is Fianna Fail hospital. visitors to this site from Ireland will know that the mater is in the middle of a row regarding a plan to build a state of the art childrens hospital, there. All about Ego. The Idea of Building a new hospital run by the 4 biggest childrens hospitals is daft. even if you get the thing built. Yout get down to who runs it. The head of crumblin will want to be the ceo, the head of the mater will want to be president, this will piss of Temple Street wo are more then happy to Move to the mater site. This is modern Ireland, I shit you not. Are modern transport plan is a joke. Ireland will be going to the polls on thursday. Bertie and the de boys, have easy work of Enda Kenny's Contract for the people. All poltical parties use focus groups. Ireland is no different from any other country in the world. We have adapted the presidential style. Last years excheuer figures were into the billions. I am lucky that I live very close to a hospital.
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Want more news about Michael Moore and "Sicko", including a recent interview from Cannes? Check it out: http://www.thenewsroom.com/details/324744/Entertainment?c_id=kc
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Did I say I worked in a fucking factory asshole? Sue me for taking a 10 second break from my temp desk job to post some messages online. I'll get right back to this blinding spredsheet MASSA.
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when is this out?
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in this TB referencing an article from The National Review about Moore's supposed dishonesty. Apparently the irony is lost to them.
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conservatives would vote for hitler if they thought it would get them into heaven and stop gay marriage
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Fantastic post. Brits and Yanks have far more in common than so many fools on both sides of the Pond would care to admit. Where would America be without the English language? And where would Britain be without American aid during the both wars. On the subject of 'who won the war' we have a draw. Britain (and France) thrashed the Kaiser's men in WWI and America and Russia won WWII. The petty bitching has to stop. Yanks: Stop reading 'Evil Empire: 101 ways in which Britain ruined the world'. Brits: Stop reading 'Why people hate America' or anything by george Galloway. WE ARE ALLIES!! So can we please act like them?
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In all countries people are screwed with healthcare and insurrances, not only in USA. But this film will be fun!
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I'm glad he made this movie just because hopefully it will get people really talking. It seems no one actually discusses this matter until they get sick. It's a problem that will probably require more than one solution. Socialized health care won't do it, at least not alone, that requires giving the government too much trust that they'll bungle in some idiotic beuracratic nightmare. Insisting on corporate responsiblity is a definite must. I remember when they were talking up a grocer's strike in California a month or two ago and people kind of snorted, "I don't get benefits why should they? They're just packing groceries." The point is if one company can be pushed to benefit its employees others can too.
Also, about that money Moore gave to that guy from Moorewatch.com. If I understand correctly it sounds like he put this detail in the film. That is truly despicable. The fact that this is public knowledge at all is truly awful. You do not exploit another man's grief no matter how much he hates you. As for the man who took the money, I can't blame him. If my wife is sick I'll gladly sacrifice my pride. I guess humiliating Charlton Heston isn't enough. -
Because these topics are boring and don't make for exciting filmmaking:
1. The FDA and their risk-averse culture, which results in hundreds of drugs and products rejected and higher drug prices.
2. The permissive legal system, which results in frivolous lawsuits and drives up malpractice insurance rates, which in turn drives up health care rates.
3. Medicare is broken, heading towards bankruptcy and carries too heavy of a tax burden to sustain long-term (much like Social Security). Having the federal government administer healthcare is like having a kleptomaniac manage a Wal-Mart. Privatized medical accounts in place of Medicare or Universal Health Care would probably work, but Congress is too in love with socialist, money-draining bureuacracies to ever approve such a thing. My guess is Moore will fill his time showing leggy pharmaceutical reps bringing in free lunches to doctor's offices or making Dick Cheney appear as if he wants to take drugs from old people and give them to Haliburton. -
Great Healthcare in Countries like England are the reason the taxes are so high. Some argue that it's too high, but when you've just been in a car accident and broke your back, or leg or what have you, I'm sure you'll feel alot better knowing that you're not going to go bankrupt because of it.
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when you move out of your parents basement and have to start paying for your own Health Care, a movie like this might interest you.
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Where's a gunman on a grassy knoll when you need one?
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Bowling for Columbine was good. Fahrenheit 9/11 was ok but really skewed. Sicko is one that I'm looking forward to. Hell, if Fox News likes the film of an anti-Bush-ite, then it's gotta be good, right? Right?
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Getting some pussy for everyone around you, and being able to brag about it is the cornerstone of making this world a better place.
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Refute that, bitches.
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While I haven’t yet seen this new MM installment, I CAN say that he is an extremely gifted filmmaker and yes – a damn fine documentarian. As I’m sure most intelligent talkbackers realize, there are many variations on a theme within each major film genre, and although there are those that would choose to casually disqualify MM’s films from the documentary genre, you just can’t. You may not like this style of documentary, but it's STILL a documentary. There is no script. MM asks the questions and his subjects respond (often by stuffing foot A into mouth B.) Many would debunk his films as propaganda tools – to propagate what, I’m not sure – but there has never been so much as a second of film that has ever been proven to be an outright lie. There are those that would also recite tired arguments such as maintaining that MM "puts words into people’s mouths" or MM "uses clever editing" to demonize his subjects (thereby shielding us from the inherent good just waiting to be exposed in the corporatist mongrels we hold in such high regard.) But therein lies the genius. In actuality, he hasn't done anything disingenuous here. Look – no doubt, the man knows how to string bits of film together, but only in such a way to make the film more entertaining and to drive his points home. Honestly, there aren’t a lot of special effects and makeup required to make the following point: corporations exist to make money and they have absolutely no regard for the human condition. Whether it be corporations cutting jobs, allowing the unobstructed sale of guns, puppeteering governments into waging war, or allowing people to die from health-related maladies, the bottom line is the same – profit, profit, profit. I love how people (I suppose rightists mostly) run to the defense of a government in bed with corporations. Especially considering that they, too, are suffering at the hands of the machine. Perhaps they feel insulted after MM's F9/11, but what they don't realize is that prior to Dubya's reign-of-terror, Moore spent a good deal of time bashing the Clinton administration. Though, he didn't have quite enough ammunition to make a feature length film. Or maybe it's just that they consider themselves to be in with “the haves”, but these same folks should strongly consider the message that MM is attempting to convey (and I don’t have to see the film to understand the bottom line): what would happen to you or one of your loved ones if they were to come down with a debilitating illness that prevented them from working? Would the insurance company or the government come running to their aid? The obvious answer is "no." Look folks - stop puffing out your chests and stop to think for a minute. MM is not out to make a buck – he’s out to do what he’s always done – stick up for the little guy. And more to the point – 99.9999% of all American’s ARE the little guy.
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-movies, tv, some of the food. Bad things- poor education, no healthcare, maniac for president, arrogance,generally right-wing political climate, biased news, greed (not just grossly obese people, all natural resources), , televison "comedies", evangelists and awful tasting chocolate. Seriously, your chocolate tastes like cardboard. Austrailia? would be a cool country if it werent for their terrible television, grating accents and the fact that every living thing out there is poisonous and will gleefully kill you. I'm scottish. I'm the underdog with a noble heart.
I love disappointment. The english attitude to the French is totally unfounded. France has a decent quality of life, and most french food is to die for. Plus, you can actually fucking smoke over there. -
I've loathed Moore's movies for a while now. Bowling and F911 were both well-crafted pieces of biased propaganda. That being said, there is plenty he could show about the US healthcare system without his spin and tricky edits. There are problems. Hell yes. My father is an orthopedic surgeon. He ran a private practice and I can almost guarantee that he hates the insurance companies more than almost anyone in here. They tried to stiff him at every turn on bills. One reason the cost of medicine is going up is that doctors have to bill more to offset insurance companies paying less (while raising premiums, the assholes). Moore could show the impact of frivolous lawsuits and lawsuits getting huge sums for pain, but non-permanent damage. However, I'm not holding my breath on that one. The HMO system is fucked up, and yes, sometimes pharms will pay off doctors to push their medication, something that should be downright illegal. I don't mind them giving doctors sample packs for patients (some doctors just hand the patient a month's supply in drug sample packs), but payoffs are bullshit. I might go to see Sicko (not in theaters, but eventually), and while I think Moore will probably hit some good points. I'm not going to expect a huge deal of accuracy or a lack of cheap shots.
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internet forums always make me think americans are stupid, lying, selfish, ignorant arseholes. michael moore and one or two other people convince me otherwise.
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Internet forums always make me think foreigners are stupid, lying, selfish, ignorant assholes. You prove my thoughts correct.
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That he makes the super-bush-lovin A-holes pop a gasket. Its true Healthcare in America is a joke. HMO's? Please they could care less about you. Meanwhile Phamicutical's and Insurance companys are making record profits. Kinda like how the oil industry id making money hand over fist while your paying more. Fiar and Blanced aint it? Thats the real reason the Boy King was installed in the white house, not for democracy or even keeping us safe but so the few can have more while the more has less. I feel sorry for you Bush voters who got so snowed on Gay Marrage and all the fake tough guy talk to see it. You guys might need a ton of talk radio and fox news to wash this one away. I think this film will be more like Bowling and Rodger and me and thats a good thing. F 9/11 was more like an angry letter but what been going on over there I cant say I blame him, it just didnt make for great filmmaking.
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Not quite sure if you actually read my post or if you just classified me right off the bat as a right-wing Limbaugh drone and went batshit insane, but as far as I can tell you seem to think that Social Security/Medicare/Bloated Federal Entitlement will be okay as long as we "leave it alone". If we had let any of them alone they would have gone bankrupt years ago. The problem with these programs is increasing administrative costs and the vicious cycle that tends to occur. Social Security and Medicare can only be sustained by continuing to increase withholdings from taxpayers, because of increasing obligations to recipients and the lack of growth in those funds. Less money for people to invest, meaning smaller nest eggs, meaning more reliance on entitlements...increasing the demand for those entitlements. Private accounts would provide some growth to these funds and help make Social Security and Medicare solvent, but politicians rarely think beyond the next election cycle, and privitization is a multi-generational effort that wouldn't show substatial growth for decades. Moore isn't likely address any of this because he thinks sticking it to corporations (who provide millions of jobs as well as needed products and services) and conservatives (who try to keep government small and taxes non-confiscatory) is "looking out for the little guy".
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Could you please give an example of a documentary that is NOT propaganda? What are you comparing it to? The evening news?
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Thank God Michael Moore doesn't live up here in Canada...imagine the burden on our system. Yeah US, you can keep him :P All joking aside (don't take me too seriously), his stuff is usually funny but his editing is downright awful (and I mean in a distorting way). Just watch the Charles Heston scene carefully from Bowling to get an idea as to what I mean...
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...it's certainly superior to the US's. The American Healthcare system has to be fixed. You can not run everything on a for-profit basis and healtcare is a prime example of this. Unlike every other industrialised country's system whose emphasis is wellness, the US system's is profit. These are people's lives we are talking about, not commodities.
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Um, Michael Moore is a propagandist to drive his point home, whatever it is.
As for a lie that's been proven? He met with Roger Moore and changed the chrnology of "Roger and Me" to make it look more damning. He speaks to people who might agree with him but are just doing their jobs (secretaries, security guards) and edits it so these people look like asshats.
His films have never really accomplished anything, guns are still prevelant in the United States, George W. Bush was reelected, and health care will be a problem. This is because his movies don't change anything, they are one-sided attacks that only serve to galvanize those who already agree with him: much like Ann Coulter columns.
And before someone like PwnedByStallone says that I'm some right wing crack pot I voted for John Kerry, I voted for Ed Rendell as governor and Jim Webb as senator, I'm going to be volunteering for the Obama campaign. I love this country and believe that it's problems are solvable, but through compromise rather than the style of "agree-with-me-or-you're-evil" debate that we have now.
PwnedByStallone and Bacci, take a look at how you talk and refer to conservatives. One of the tenets of liberalism is tolerance: I don't agree with George Bush or those who support him but I understand that their opinions are simply different than mine and not evil.
Okay, now that I've stepped off my soap-box, who's excited for the Dark Knight?! -
I know he's trying to point out issues with american health care but he being a dick about.
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Well said and I heartily agree. Someone with your attitude has a much better chance of influencing my opinion than someone like Moore and his ilk do. My view is that most people want the same outcome, it's only the road chosen to get there that differs. I want better healthcare as much as the next person, I just don't think you get there by increasing the government's control over it. It's odd to me that the same people that complain that Bush screws everything up are the same people that would want to put healthcare under his control. How does that make any sense? Did anyone approve of how the govt handled Katrina? Is that who you really want in charge of your healthcare???
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The right idea, if you dont work or pay taxes then you should get shit care. I pay £30,000 a year income tax for all the EU tramp nation migrants to come here and get treated for free. It makes me so fucking mad I am moving to Australia next year, chased out of my Homeland by the polish and all the other eastern block roustabouts aloud in by fucking tony blair. Hats off to America the only ones angry are the ones that live in mobile homes and they should be drowned anyway. I would love to see Michael Moore been treated for his 9th heart attack next to a Junky and ex convict his film has enabled to get treated for free, bet he would shut his fat fucking mouth then
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Have you actually been to France, the people smell like a tramps crotch but are still as arrogant as Donald Trump, the food is normally steak served raw and costs as much as Gucci clothing and the whole of Paris smells from the fact most sewers are open and the people mentioned earlier. They have nearly elected a fascist president twice in the last 3 years and the are Historys cowards who cooporated with the Nazis. All in all a great bunch of lads. If it wasnt for the wine I would recommend the whole place was burnt to the ground
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And that point is - America is so fuckin far behind the rest of the intellectual planet that they honestly believe that the rest of the world only laughs at them because of Bush. We've been laughing at you for decades! It took an over-the-top cartoon character like Bush to finally show the yanks how backwards Americans can be!
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Bowling For Columbine. A comedy for the rest of the planet - a wake up call for America. A wake up call that America apparently pressed the snooze button for.
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One thing that bothers me about visiting Europe... I have to pay for every fucking time I want to use a bathroom, pay for toilet paper, pay to use soap... In America... public toilets are free and everywhere! Those yanks know their priorities, and it begins with the toilet! That my friends, is FREEDOM!
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why dont you just take a good honest look at the country you are living in and you can see that it isnt perfect be it the uk, the usa or brazil. the fact that one person made a film/documentary about a certain aspect of your society is in my opinion not a reason to go making poorly thought out rants or in other cases a extra reason for you to flame this one country. I was in the assumption this was an entertainment site and if you want to go political or radical or sociological i think there are better places for it. maybe the subject matter doesnt agree with you but i dont see these kinds of talkbacks on other movies.
And for sure this movie need more giant robots in it!!!! can you see the little michael moore hasbro toys allready?? -
the next time you drive your sleek machine over the Jersey state line, let me know. I will meet you under the Exxon sign that gives this fair city light.
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as always, your posts prove my point about your senseless opinions, and complete misunderstanding about everything you try to talk about, better than I ever could. thank you buddy.
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"Moore's appeal lies in his giving wealthy, over-educated, whites an opportunity to laugh at working-class whites." Now that's funny, right therrr.
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bring it on ballsack suckerrzzzz
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I was looking at that one sheet with Moore slumped in a chair. What a fatass. So many health problems in people today are due to them being overweight and sedentary.
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...meaningful healthcare reform as F 9/11 was in swinging the 2004 presidential election to Kerry.
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...most likely died from sheer boredom not poor healthcare.
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He pisses off everyone I hate.Repeatedly.
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We created breast implants, the tv, the microwave and a little thing called the INTERNET! FUCK YOU for not giving props where it's due. Fucking ingrates! Get off your lazy asses and get to work. YOU'RE damn RIGHT we work our asses off, we feed and pay for the damn world!
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Man, I know I wear my opinions on my sleeve, and I don't pretend my rhetoric is fact. I just don't like having talking points waved in my face like a fucking dog that's wet the carpet when I ask the question 'WHY'. There are people in the US who get sick, get hurt, and cannot run their day to day without the help of medical care they WILL not receive. To the person whose pop is a doctor, look, I'm not saying all doctors are greedy, but you ask your pop if he'd still be doing what he does if he got paid the same as the fucking teachers who brought him through the American education system. I don't believe that Sweden Rocks and America Sucks. It's just that I get depressed when the AMERICA ROX, THESE COLORS NEVER RUN fucking intellectual menstrual blood farts begin howling their yawp at the moon because someone said that they do it better somewhere else. We get all worked up when someone tells us unpretty truths, as Americans. Sweden has more overall freedom than we do. They don't have half the fun we do, but the FACT is that in Sweden fact is more important than the freedom to live in fiction. That's why they believe the SCIENCE on global warming, legalized drugs and prostitution, because they don't have invisible santa with a gun haunting their every tracks. Can't wait to see this one. Michael Moore can be unfair, but who gives a shit when the field is FUCKING FILLED with guys equal to the task pumping out their ignorant shit every day. The only solace the Anti get is that Moore can only put one of these out every couple of years, and with the doctors and drugs companies he's fucking with being the caretakers of his future, I think he's going to find out that he's gonna end up with a thermometer sewed up inside him.
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get a good job and then when you have to pay a shit load for health care its chump change. every country sucks. falwell is in hell too
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Television was invented by the Germans. Paul Nipkow in 1884. And also, USA has pretty much the highest rate of homeless for any one country so hats for feeding THE REST OF the world. Thanks for that. And you don't "work your asses off". You also have the highest obesity rate in the world. Kudos. But, if it makes you feel better, you are the loudest country in the world.
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great point. and by the way when the tsunami hit a few years back i think i remember france contributing about 100 k while we fucking ponied up a couple hundred mil. we provide you everything, all we ask is for you to fuckin suck our dick once in awhile.
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I'm going to revoke your internet priveleges if you keep that tone with me bucko. We're all cowboys here and cary guns and eat big macs and we'll KICK your MIC ASS for such attitude!
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who cares about the homeless. im not fat so i dont care. im not really loud either, but i see your point on that. we are the superpower so we take advantage of everyone but we do give back too. whoever is in the lesser position of course will be bitter.
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I have been experiencing feelings of guilt for taking from the US and never giving. I think it's past I paid my due so put your nuts on my chin, champ.
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...on any of this. I just love a good international scuffle. I actually visited the USA earlier this year and loved every second. I think (hope) most of the people here are taking this all with the good humour intended... BTW - the "nuts on your chin" offers stands.
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Um... thanks?
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yet no one came forward to claim the 10,000 he offered if anyone could prove one lie in his film? i mean if farenheit is so full to the brim with lies why won't anyone try to make some money out if it???
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The whole point of F911 (which I found boring as boring as watching Stephen Hawkings and Christopher Reeve arm wrestle) was to act as a counter balance to all the government propaganda utilising the same propaganda tools that they, at the time, were employing to persuade the American people. Like most documentary film makers he doesn't care to take an unbiased approach to any one subject. A lot of people were cranky that he unabashedly made a one-sided argument. Also, he's pretty hefty.
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The conservative viewpoint is one of the old Anglo Puritan Work Ethic trying to graft itself onto modern life. Look, I'm all for streamlined government, but the founders of our government understood that tyranny is wrong, even dressed up in pretty plastic and sold to me in pretty packaging. What part of 'Corporations are Amoral' doesn't seem to register? They are impartial, to a fault, to everything but the bottom line. They don't understand OR actually bend to the will of the people. When there is such a spread between those who can afford to purchase influence through stock and those who can't, allow the corporations to dictate to them the means of their life. Hey, check out IDIOCRACY...Brawndo owns you. Or will own you. Hell, I'm going to bet you're NOT a right-wing nutjob, man. But you are a 'whatever makes one rich, is morally acceptable'. That kind of thinking led to bloody revolution in the past, and believe me, when the yokels in middle America finally understand that the corporate masters have them firmly yoked by controlling how they live, there's going to be some baaaad bad times.
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universal healthcare is only possible in an economy of plenty. An economy of plenty is only possible when there are enough resources and enough stability. Stability costs money to achieve and maintain. Europe has been lucky to have had America to provide for security, although America had its own interests in this bargain - i.e. the promotion of stable allies with whom to do business and who also support similar goals and ideologies. But an economy of plenty - the illusion anyways - is sustained by consumerism: the consumption of more goods than are necessary for survival and well-being. This, however, fosters both waste of resources and a culture only interested in consumption, while disregarding the more important matters of what makes their society stable and secure. In a democracy, freedom is taken for granted, and is reduced to the right to have whatever the guy next door is having. Equality, then, becomes less of a possibility, the more the 'economy of plenty' starts to reveal its illusive nature. The more dissatisfaction prevails, the more will opposition against giving up freedoms in order to equalize what is available dwindle, and this in accordance with the lowest common denominator. This is also the case with the demand for 'security'. Eventually, democracy destroys itself from within. The problem with America (and indirectly also Europe) is that its' economy is in a mess: it needs to secure access to oil in order to guarantee economic growth, but at the same time must compete with countries unwilling to accept unipolarity as the norm. In fact, they can't. If resources were infinite, there wouldn't be a problem, since the universal pursuit of wealth, systematized and institutionalized by the West by the ideology of capitalism and free-market liberalism, has at least managed one important victory: global integration through economic institutions, which is why all our economies depend on each other, and why all stand to lose in the case of economic meltdown. The problem is that this too was sustained by the illusion of an 'economy of plenty' being possible, and which has translated greed and risk aversion to our financial markets, making all our economies even more vulnerable to speculation. Our faith in technology and universal education (and healthcare) are also predicated on the assumption 'plenty', and thus forgets that what sustains it will eventually run out. In fact, technology ends up destroying man, since somehow people always think that technology will - given enough time - solve all our problems, so we postpone the hard decisions for later. But leaders know that oil is running out. And when it does... talk about universal health-care will be the last worry on people's minds. But if this movie gives us a glimpse on the the state of affairs of man in this day and age, then maybe it will make people think about the limits of democracy, and human nature, particularly in the context of limited resources. Left-right debates are themselves a waste of energy.
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yeah I have, although I've never been to paris at, yes it is a cesspit. Some french do have questionable hygene true. As for the food, youre eating the wrong stuff. Granted the french eat horsemeat and snails, but thats because they fucking love eating so much. Pastries, crisps, chocolate, pizza now THATS what the french do well. Best fucking cakes on the planet. I HATED cakes. Couldnt stand em. Basically bland sugary bread imo, but in france, I had a revelation. Cake rules all.
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May 22, 2007 9:33:30 PM CDT
The one's who are Un-American think the system works...
by burnhollywood
After all, they're just a noisy minority who want to keep their own countrymen sick or dead broke: "The poll found Americans across party lines willing to make some sacrifice to insure that every American has access to health insurance. Sixty percent, including 62 percent of independents and 46 percent of Republicans, said they would be willing to pay more in taxes. Half said they would be willing to pay as much as $500 a year more." - 3/1/7 New York Times Poll. Delete the spaces, read it, and weep: http://www.nyti mes.com/2007/03/01/washin gton/01cnd-po ll.html
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Shame on you pinheads (my apologies to real pinheads) for all the fat jokes and foam-at-the-mouth idealogues. Our health care system IS a mess. Pointing out our problems and indicating that other countries get things right isn't unAmerican. It takes a real patriot to force us to take a clear look at ourselves. Only then can we improve.
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Hehehe
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You seem to confuse me with someone who regards you.I don't.
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This thing will catch on
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The US is a nation running on credit in every sense: socially, politically and last but not least economically.
Eventually the dollar will be abandoned as world monetary standard in favor of the Euro (experts expect about 10 years from now or less), instigated by the Chinese dumping their useless stacks of dollar reserves which they have been sitting on, but the enormous amount of money they'll lose that way at some point will be too big a price to pay and the other nations, especially in the Middle East, will follow suit (already more and more voices in the Arab world are heard saying that the price of oil should be linked to the Euro in stead of dollar), so if Americans are thinking they've been experiencing swimming up shit creek in recent years economically, wait when that happens and your huge national debt will be called in. The US will finally realize what has been glossed over by being a credit based nation: that in fact the whole country is bankrupt. The rest of the world has been tolerating this, by keep giving loans to the US, or keep buying dollars (that they don't need), which amounts to the same thing, for reasons of economic stability (fear of inflation) and because US economy is a vigorous market, making it a driving force in world economy, and foreign investors are afraid to let go of that, which is what US economic policies have been banking on.
With growing markets in Asia and South-America however it is becoming less and less atractive for foreign nations to do this and I'm sorry to say this but a nation cannot function based on credit forever; gotta pay the piper his dues in the end.
Obviously this little rant is a gross simplification of what's going on, but it is also nevertheless true unfortunately, so it's time the people of the US start waking up and get their act together.
A change of regime will be a good start, but the current policies unfortunately have more or less been held up by both republicans and democrats, so nothing much is going to change I fear unless people start demanding change from whatever government will be in power (if it is willing to switch its hearing aid on that is, which is doubtful from a historic point of view). -
Hey, I got a question for ya. Since healthcare seems to be linked to employment. What happens when you retire? Do you keep those health care benefits in perpetuity or are you thrown on the scrap heap of medicare? This would alarm me somewhat if I was an American because for those of us who are lucky enough to reach retirement age my crystal ball says that everyone of us is going to get sick and die sooner or later. So what gives? No job , no health care?
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That will be the trend yes. Governments all over the western world are facing the huge problem, that due to obvious reasons, increased medical knowledge and technology, declining birth rates, the part of the population that is retired will keep on growing and the part that works will keep on getting smaller.
Government benefits are being paid in most western countries by taxing the working part of its populace, so less people that work, less income for the state from taxes, less money for benefits like health care.
Solutions:
- Keep raising taxes which will cause people to have less to spend, so economy will be damaged, companies have to cut back, people get fired, so even less people that work etc.
- Make people work longer before they can retire. This will work for a while in part but as an isolated measure won't be sufficient.
- Government will keep on cutting on benefits like health care to balance the drop in tax revenue
Most countries are trying to implement the last two measures.
All measures however will increase the already high amount of stress on the social fabric of nations like the US, like solidarity between those that work and those that don't work.
A lot of potential for a lot of ugliness I'm afraid. -
The solution for us in the US is a simple one. Everyone is always bitching that they don't want us going into other countries but as soon as we don't (Darfur for instance) everyone is bitching that we aren't doing enough. How are we the ones responsible for everyone elses problems?
I propose that we pull all of our military that are stationed around the world (want to see some foreign economies collapse?) and bring them home. Use them to secure OUR borders.
Next, screw foreign aid. We have homeless and sick people here. Stop all of the foreign aid and use it to fix what's broken here. Charity begins at home, not overseas.
America has it's faults to be sure, but I would contend that we are no better or no worse than any other country. -
Cuban health care only works for high-ranking Communist Party members, the military, and health-care tourist who can pay in foreign currency at a special facility catering to foreigners.
Ordinary Cubans experience the real system: Even aspirin and Pepto-Bismol can be rare, and there’s a black market for them. According to a report in the Canadian National Post: “Hospitals are falling apart, surgeons lack basic supplies and must reuse latex gloves. Patients must buy their sutures on the black market and provide bed sheets and food for extended hospital stays.”
Anything that’s wrong in Cuba is always blamed on the United States, like everything else in the world. If there is a shortage of medicine, well, that’s because of the U.S. embargo. But the United States is not the only country in the world that sells drugs. Cuba could buy them from Europe or elsewhere, and the U.S. embargo makes an exception for medicines.
The only reason to fantasize about Cuban health care is to stick a finger in the eye of us Yanquis. For the likes of Michael Moore and the rest of you America haters, the true glory of Cuba is less its health care than the fact that it is an enemy of the United States. -
anyways... I watched Children of Men a few times over the weekend, and that documentary Cuaron did on the dangers of global capitalism on that DVD was so fucking heavy... Universal health care is the least of my worries... I'm just hoping American society survives after the disaster that was the Bush administration. Let's all pray that when the Dems win in '08 it won't mean business as usual.
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Moore will really have to up his game at making Americans look stupid, causing people discomfort, and being unsexy if he hopes to top Borat in the fake doc category.
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Anyone who would hold up Cuba's system as a good model lacks the intellectual horsepower and integrity to address the problem properly. Unlike the French, the vast majority of Americans will see through Sicko's disingenuous arguments, and in the end this movie will be lucky to earn one one-hundreth of Farenheit 9/11's box office.
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I'm sure MM doesn't get the issue after years of working on this film, interviewing experts, championing the cause of 9/11 first responders, etc. He's not putting Cuba up on a pedestal... he's using Cuba comparatively, i.e. 'even Cuba of all places has an easier way to help these people'.
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Give me a break, MM! The worst you're likely to face is a pitiful fine for going to Cuba. Take it out of your croissant budget-
"Director Oliver Stone visited Cuba to make two documentaries about dictator Fidel Castro. Stone's production company was fined roughly $6,300 last year for visits that took place in 2002 and 2003."- USA Today -
..is concerned that the White House might take more extreme measures in this case in order to derail the release of Sicko. O'Hara describes the inquiry as "a politically motivated investigation" because Sicko criticizes the nexus of profits, politicians and the health care industry.
To prevent Sicko from potential confiscation, the master print has been hidden outside the USA, Lehane says. The filmmaker is worried that authorities might deem the recorded footage contraband because it was created in Cuba and seize it under the same rules that allow, for instance, the confiscation of smuggled cigars."
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Bringing brains and sanity back!
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I think Moore is marvellous but he faces an enemy even greater than any bueaucratic Government body or military conflict - the ignorance and greed of the American public. Voting in a party who would raise taxes to a point where the neediest would not have to suffer. How much has this fucking war cost..? After 9-11 America should have licked it's wounds, regrouped, contemplated an appropriate response i.e.The utter destruction of Taliban forces in Helmand province instead of loking for a scapegoat in Saddam. America's healthcare has never been anything but a disgrace and doesn't come anywhere near the standards enjoyed by Canadians. I might be British but having lived in LA for a long time i can tell you that the poorest suffer a world of shit - especially in the land of dreams that is Hollywood.
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I think Moore is marvellous but he faces an enemy even greater than any bueaucratic Government body or military conflict - the ignorance and greed of the American public. Voting in a party who would raise taxes to a point where the neediest would not have to suffer. How much has this fucking war cost..? After 9-11 America should have licked it's wounds, regrouped, contemplated an appropriate response i.e.The utter destruction of Taliban forces in Helmand province instead of loking for a scapegoat in Saddam. America's healthcare has never been anything but a disgrace and doesn't come anywhere near the standards enjoyed by Canadians. I might be British but having lived in LA for a long time i can tell you that the poorest suffer a world of shit - especially in the land of dreams that is Hollywood.
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...and many things about america suck balls, but if Australia is so great then why do you still have the queen on your money? The bitches of the british, you lot are. USA is still the only country that has a separation of church and state written into the law. That's a good thing. MM is great for taking on health care; and has always attacked BOTH left and right. F911 was more heavy handed against the right because they were being bigger assholes at the time (and the left really didn't have any power then, anyway).
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when and where
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I think you're right on four accounts counts: 1) The Dems will keep up the war (remember they were supposed to end it after last year's election, and they are already backing down to Bush) 2) The funding for Healthcare can EASILY come from our war budget 3) The Dems WILL raise taxes instead and 4) the sloth and gluttony of the American people is our (and Michael Moore's) greatest enemy. But not completely. The problem is exaggerated by the fact that most Americans are denied access to the information that they need to make informed decisions. The big networks are ALL biased towards the status quo and regularly repress essential information.
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Remember that Moore is the ONLY voice in popular culture who is offering an alternative view to what is coming at us from the big networks, who regularly repress stories, change facts around and flood the news with junk--information we don't need and can't use to help us make informed voting decisions.
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A lot of people on this TB have criticised MM for making propaganda. He is criticized for not giving a balanced view. First, a definition of propoganda: "Propaganda is the deliberate, systematic attempt to shape perceptions, manipulate cognitions, and direct behavior to achieve a response that furthers the desired intent of the propagandist." Source: Garth S. Jowett and Victoria O'Donnell, Propaganda And Persuasion, 4th edition, 2006.
An example of this is the campaign "Click it or ticket", used to get more people to buckle their seat belts and SAVE THEIR OWN LIVES. Not all propoganda is bad, changing our perceptions for our own good.
Most Americans are served a big old moose-shit pie by the the prevailing regime. Propogandists have convinced a large number of us that this is the best damn pie in the world. F9/11 was propoganda used to say "hey, that's a shit pie, don't eat it".
What would be, in your opinion, a "balanced view"? "Hey guys, this a moose-shit pie, but at least you get a slice"? Or an analysis of the peanuts the moose has been eating?
Yes, Moore is trying to change our views and yes, he uses emotion to do it. But don't criticise him for saying shit stinks.
By the way, all you France bashers, remember the slogan there (a far cry from what is going on here) is "let them eat cake". -
Those of you who don't think everyone has a right to healthcare, it's in the constitution, we have an "inalienable right to life, liberty and the pursuit of property". This truth is held to be "self-evident". If you deny a cancer patient the right to healthcare, you are denying his or her right to life. This is contrary to the constitution.
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Edward L. Bernays: "The only difference between ‘propaganda’ and ‘education,’ really, is in the point of view. The advocacy of what we believe in is education. The advocacy of what we don’t believe in is propaganda.”
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You don't reserve better! All the money that the US spends on defense, including the piece of shit system, the missile defense shield, that does not work, and yet Uncle Sam has no money for universal health care? And instead of questioning this, you rip on Micheal Moore for being....fat? You are the reason why gas companies and health care rape the common man and then blame the "market." Like I said, you chimps do not deserve better.
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I think he did that when he decided to go to war without congressional approval. And I believe that the Freedom Act is one of his highlights also.
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He may have ripped it up, but he didn't get my copy... What about YOUR'S?
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...not the US Constitution. Two very different documents, not the least of which is that one, the Constitution, is legally binding while the other, the Declaration of Independence, isn't.
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...the pursuit of happiness", not property.
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actually, it is in the Constitution, Article V: "Article [V.]
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or
otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment
of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval
forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of
War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the
same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor
shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against
himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without
due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for
public use, without just compensation."
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No, the real power lies in us, the american people. We just choose, over and over and over again, to give it away
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Trombone, you ignorant buffoon. The Constitution does NOT say "inalienable right to life liberty and the pursuit of property". The Declaration of Independence expressed our belief that we are born with rights that include life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and that governments are established to secure them, not provide them. Our government is under no constitutional obligation to provide any health care. We, the people, may ask them to by electing representatives who support spending our taxes on it, but it isn't a "right". Stay awake in civics class next time.
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Missed quote, but the content is still the same and my point is still valid. See Article V from the Constitution above.
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1.) The government does NOT "give" us rights. We are already born with them. The government merely protects them.
2.) Our rights come with responsibilities. You don't possess one without the other. 3.) Michael Moore is a gadfly who should not be taken seriously. -
... because for everthing he shrills on docu/propagana films is not how HE choses to live his life. If I told you about some fat, white guy who lives in a penthouse, owns multi-million dollar property, puts his kid in private school and finds tax loopholes in his financial investments, you'd think for sure you were talking about a republican. Think of all the people in dying around the world with ZERO healthcare he could be helping with all his money. Until he lives like Ghandi, he's just pushing his socialist propaganda. And if you love socialism... there's plenty of places you can go live in your Utopia. Moore should wake up in his big bed and fuzzy bathrobe every morning and thank God for the capitalism that made him a rich man. That's why we see you tools that defend him to be utterly mentally lacking. Now go watch Team America for your reprograming!
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1) and 2) are good points. Who else but Michael Moore is taking these issues on a national scale? We don't need to take MM seriously, but we DO need to take the issues seriously. And he puts them on a national platform for us.
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Moore's personal life does not invalidate his documentaries, any more than Bush's personal life justifies his political horrors. Remember Hitler was a life-long vegetarian, faithful to his partner.
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1.) You meant the Fifth Amendment, not Article V (which deals with passing amendments). 2.) Even the Fifth Amendment, which deals with due process, has nothing to do with your original argument. 3.) No one has a right to health care. Period. We may have a societal desire to elect representatives who will spend our tax money on providing health care, but it is not in the Constitution. At all. End of story.
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It limits what the government can take away from a person under certain circumstances, not what the government must provide to people. Specifically, that the government can't declare a person a criminal, and then seize their property or jail them or execute them without a trial (also that a person can't be forced to testify against themself, that a person has the right to a lawyer, etc.). It has nothing to do with a right to healthcare or other social programs.
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Thanks for the education. I do appreciate it. My argument is that a right to live (and the 5th amendment does say that the government cannot deprive us of life) by extension includes health care.
Granted this is not an argument likely to be made, but it is an interesting one. -
Why should I go back to school when you are so obviously taking me there?
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...putting health care issues on a national platform. He is selling "Hate America". That's it. You don't have to like America's private health care system, and even desire to socialize it. It's a free country. But MM is NOT bring up the issue in order to promote socialized medicine. If he was serious about the issue, he'd have set the documentary in Sweden or Canada, not friggin' Cuba! No, MM's sole desire is to vent his hatred for democracy and freedom. The health care debate is not the issue, it is only the vehicle.
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Sorry 'bout that. And I'll calm down a little. I disagree with you entirely about your take on the Fifth Amendment, but it is an interesting argument.
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what the constitution does or does not say anymore? Bushco has shat all over the constitution without any oversight or accountability. They've been taking huge, atrocious dumps all over the Constitution, and no one has really shown any outrage.
Is the Democratic party in league with the same people pulling the strings with the Republicans? Will a Democratic administration in '08 actually bring the country back to sanity? These are the things I worry about... I have a bad feeling that the legacy of Bushco will be so bad, that the majority of the country will be hard up to even provide basic needs for their families. It may be so bad in the near future that the mere idea of seriously debating universal health care will be ridiculous. -
I'm sure everyone from the neophyte O'Reily fanatics to all levels of Dubyanauts will soon have enough right wing fodder to help you pull the wool back over your eyes and live in Patriot Act-tastic bliss.
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That supposed smell Paris has Chorilio, or whatever, isn't the city. It's from you having your head up your ass. I was there just last year and I can tell you it is one of the fucking cleanest and most beautiful cities on Earth. And the people. Yeah maybe bathing is less frequent or used more sparingly in an effort to conserve than here in the U.S. but if you think every American is squeaky clean in comparison you need to take a good look or whiff of New York City. Hell that city has fucking toxic waste puddles on every sidewalk corner.
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"He is selling 'Hate America'." That's a stretch, Fargin, can you back it up? And what is wrong with Cuba? I didn't realize that Cuba=hate America. BTW have you SEEN the documentary? Wait till you see it (and hopefully think about it) until you decide. I agree he's not the best, Noam Chomsky is a much better critic, but he gets the stuff out there. We need to know, and talk about, this stuff.
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I care about the constitution, whether or not Bush does. I hope you do too.
It looks like the Dems are not going to be all that much different than the GOP in '08. For example, the gap between rich and poor in the US increased a greater amount under Clinton than it did under Reagan.
And I think it was MM that said. "No one likes to be fucked. But when you're getting fucked, it's nicer to hear someone say 'I love you'." (aside to Fargin and Detinue: I know that's not in the Constitution) -
A right to not have the government kill a person (except as punishment for certain criminal acts proven in court) is far different from a right for the government to have to provide all it citizens with the necessities to sustain life (food, shelter, clothing, healthcare, etc.). Just to clarify your position, trombone, do you literally consider the government guilty of murder if it doesn't provide everyone with food, shelter, healthcare, etc?
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Your hyperventilating is annoying. The republic will recover from President Chimpy McBushHitler or whatever you left wing extremist morons call him. January 2009 we'll have a new president, and he or she may not a Republican (unfortunately). Dr. Evil Dick Cheney won't declare martial law if Shillary is elected. And as I recall, the Donkeycrats are running Congress now, aren't they? Fish Taco proves that knuckle dragging mouth breathers have shifted left, not right.
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MM is indeed selling Hate America. I've seen his other movies. Do I need to see ANOTHER Star Wars sequel to know George Lucas can't write dialog for crap? I don't need to see Sicko to know MM hates America. And ask any Cubano who risked their life floating to Florida in a makeshift raft what's wrong with Cuba. Lovely people, beautiful island, wonderful culture. With a horrible brutal mass murdering dictator who rules with an iron fist. And Noam Chomsky? Please.
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I do care. It's just that after what's been going on... I understand what you're saying there but I'm holding onto my last shred of hope and trying to keep pessimism at bay, that the Dems will be able to change things.
I think the reason some people get so enraged about Michael Moore's activism, is the fact that he is brave enough to try and make a difference by speaking truth to power, and it reflects poorly on their own cowardice, intellectual laziness, and servitude to authority. -
The government currently exercises it's "right" to murder in Iraq. In this case it would not be "murder", but "criminal negligence". Note: The government currently funds the right to life (and regular healthcare) for interstate highways, why not human beings? Sorry if that seems too much of a stretch.
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Especially when it comes to partisan politics, truth and Mr. Moore part company early on.
I think the reason people get so enraged about Michael Moore's activism is that there is not just tremendous bias, but there is often propagandistic distortion of facts, events, and time-lines, all in order to make a point.
Which is not an indictmnet against Sicko, which I have not seen, and may be perfectly objective, this time around. I doubt it, but I can hope.
Universal Healthcare--which puts our health choices in the hands of usually faceless and unaccountable government bureaucrats--does not sound better to me than having our healthcare choices being in the hands of faceless and largely unaccountable insurance company bureaucrats. However, while both distort market forces, the insurance system is still more responsive (despite all the bad stuff you can say about them), and treatments still unavailable in supposedly superior single-payer systems have been covered, at least partially, by many American insurance plans (and supplemented by Medicare or Medicaid) for years, meaning that American healthcare--especially in regards to diseases with relatively new treatment options--out performs pretty much every quasi-socialist healthcare system out there.
Peace out. -
The government owes me a car. I have to drive to work, don't I? Preferably a sports-car. And the government should provide every sexually active male with an attractive, hygenic prositute. What's life without a little whoopee? Stupid non-European government.
Bring on the Socialist Utopia! -
...disagree with Michael Moore's positions and are engaging in counter-activism against them.
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to that of smaller, poorer countries. It's inarguable that the richest country on Earth should be able to care for it's (comparatively small) population. You're quite a sparsely populated country, you DO know that, don't you? it's shameful, literally a cause for shame, that any old people in the US have to live in abject poverty and die in the street. That's a weak country; a weak society, and nothing you say about fending for yourself and bootstraps will change the fact that CHILDREN are affected by poverty in the US more than children in any other developed nation.
Oh and one thing about the French; they don't resort to stupid insults about Americans under any circumstances, despite what you say, i have never heard a French person laugh at Americans for being fat or vulgar or crass or materialistic or gullible. All I ever hear is Americans making horrible childish jokes about cheese and underarm hair and garlic while the French stand there looking fairy dignified. Americans have rah-rah patriotism, they have the flag, they have anthems and chants, 'Fuck-yeah!!, Wooh, Wooh!' and a million other things but the French have something you don't. Real national pride; true cultural confidence that doesn't need to flaunt itself, won over long centuries of bloodshed and recovery. They don't insult you; they don't have to. -
There is no "left-wing" on this TB (or in the US, for that matter). A true leftist is a communist, or an anarchist. And by communist, I mean a state with no religion, communaly owned, and centrally run. Anarchist means no governing body.
And you need to support your opinion about his earlier documentaries. What, precisely, is "Hate America"? One could just as easily say that MM is selling "LOVE AMERICA". Also, which America are you talking about?
My question was not, "what's wrong with Cuba", but how does Cuba=hate America? -
I haven't heard any reputable source claim that he has distorted facts in his documentaries. Do you have any examples?
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"Hope in Dems". I think you had better hope in something else. Sorry to say, but it's true.
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I do not consider myself a coward, intellectually lazy, or a slave to authority. You should have seen how I was "speaking truth to power" (another lame left cliche) during the Clinton Administration. I do care that not enough Americans get proper health care. But it is TRULY cowardly and intellectually lazy to go to Cuba and film how apparachiks and obtuse foreigners are getting state funded health care (funded on the slavery of the oppressed Cuban people) and call it "better that America's". And believing this propaganda just to be fashionable and chic is a slap at the poor imprisoned people of Cuba. THAT'S cowardice. You want to "speak truth to power"? Speak out against Castro and his dictatorship.
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...is itself a piece of willful propaganda manufactured in the wake of Fahrenheit 9-11. There are about EIGHT pages of backed-up sources and references at www.michaelmoore.com, dealing with every gray area of that film. He highlighted particular incidents but he did NOT make anything up. That 'Moore lies' is what you would LIKE to be true, but as we have seen, your faith-based world view means precisely DICK in a world of sources and verified data. See WMD, Jessica Lynch, yellow-cake uranium etcetera for further details.
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to healthcare. Which is to grant large regional insurance companies exclusive rights to a region, provided the company guarantees coverage to all.
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If the Cubans were able to give their people healthcare that was only half as good as US healthcare, it would still be a source of shame for the US. Comparing the richest nation on earth to a tiny, embargo-crushed island is stupid.
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The argument is not about the upper end services, which is, it seems, the central point to your argument for US healthcare. The point is that a large number of people don't have any AT ALL for BASIC stuff. Most people don't need brain surgery. They need anti-biotics and cavities filled.
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In Switzerland, the government requires by law that everyone residing in the country be insured with basic and accident insurance. There is a (fairly equitable) system by which low-income individuals and families can get funds from the government to pay part of their premiums (including foreign students living and attending school in Switzerland). It is not through employers. You see, once we start being imaginative, solutions present themselves. i don't know if you all remember, but Clinton came close to giving us Universal Healthcare in the 90s. It was blocked by, of all organizations, the American Medical Association--our doctors.
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...in the aftermath of the collapse of Soviet communism and the rapid conversion of Chinese communism to a sort of Maoist corporatist dictatorship (fascism), WHAT ACTUAL THREAT does Castro's little commie island pose to the US that it needs to be crushed by embargoes?
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There are thousands of people who believe the earth is flat. Documents and documents about how the astronauts never went to the moon. And way too many people who believe Michael Moore is an honest film maker. What IS true is that the ordinary people of Cuba have worse health care than any other country in the Western Hemisphere with the possible exception of Haiti, no matter what Michael Moore says. Lies by omission are still lies.
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Who are not exactly a leftist think-tank, released a report a month ago detailing the theories of their brightest and best on social and political developments in the First World over the next century. They predict a massive resurgence of Marxism, with the middle-classes, debilitated by, social chaos, debt and overwork, taking the place of the proletariat in the ongoing struggle against the super rich corporatists (neo-aristocrats).
Interesting stuff. -
I agree with you on Cuba and a bunch of my friends have been there. It's supposed to be a VERY nice country. I don't know enough about what goes on there to make an informed opinion about whether or not it's a good country. I don't think Fargin does either...
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file under: pointless as fuck
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As I said before, the US embargo does not include medicine, and other countries besides the US sell medicine. The TRUTH is that Castro doesn't care about his subjects enough to let them get proper health care, unless you are in the military or high official. You don't like that, Jose? Off to prison you go. Forever. And maybe your kids too.
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you have yet to back up your assertion that MM is lying...
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You kidding!? This is one of the best TBs since Walter B!
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It could be that. Or it could be that you have attached your ego to the group that Michael Moore is critical of, and the truth is, you really have no other choice than to believe that he is a hypocrit, liar, propagandist, etc.
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The point of healthcare is to keep people ALIVE, no?
"Data for 2004 show that Cuba has one of the highest life expectancy rates in Latin America. Costa Rica, Chile, Virgin Islands, Guadeloupe, and Martinique now have a higher life expectancy for combined sexes from birth.[3] In 2002 Cuba was found to have the lowest infant mortality rate in the Americas along with Canada
BBC:
In 2006, BBC flagship news programme Newsnight featured Cuba's Healthcare system as part of a series identifying "the world's best public services". The report noted that "Thanks chiefly to the American economic blockade, but partly also to the web of strange rules and regulations that constrict Cuban life, the economy is in a terrible mess: national income per head is minuscule, and resources are amazingly tight. Healthcare, however, is a top national priority" The report stated that life expectancy and infant mortality rates are pretty much the same as the USA's. Its doctor-to-patient ratios stand comparison to any country in Western Europe. Its annual total health spend per head, however, comes in at $251; just over a tenth of the UK's. The report concluded that the population's admirable health is one of the key reasons why Castro is still in power. -
"There are thousands of people who believe the earth is flat."
Everything after that is mindless off-topic waffle. -
The Swiss System sounds interesting, but I personally don't trust my US government enough to make it worthwhile. Yes, health care is expensive. But having the wasteful US government provide any of it won't make it cheaper, or more efficient. There are good ideas out there. "Let the government take care of it" is not necessarily one of them, at least for us. Surely there are market solutions involving LESS government that can improve American health care. Right?
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Fargin's not "mindless". He obviously has some education and he obviously cares, which is great. I'll take an educated person who cares over an uneducated lackluster any day.
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Typical American ignorance and stupidity. The World Wide Web is in fact an English invention. There, you've learned something today.
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I said that the post that began with the words "There are thousands of people who believe the earth is flat." is bereft of anything but groundless assertions and willful untruths. What does the flatness of the earth of the cheesiness of the moon have to do with with either Michael Moore's reliability or the Cuban health system? It was a totally spurious comparison.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_turing
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I'm with you on the distrust of the US government. The point is that we need healthcare for everyone. I personally think 1) everyone deserves it and 2) it is possible to put a system in place in the US which serves the American people better than the system we have in place. Fargin, the Swiss System has very little government involvement outside of price regulation and providing funds for those who can't pay. It's all done through insurance companies. I think one of the issues here (and correct me if I'm wrong, Fargin) is: does someone deserve Healthcare if he/she can't pay for it him/herself? Do we, as a society, have a moral responsibility to those around us? To what extent does this responsibility extend? I am really enjoying talking about this stuff with you and really would like to hear your answers on these questions.
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Put aside that the reflexively dishonest Cuban government is the ultimate source for these figures. Cuba had the lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America prior to the revolution and has lost ground to other countries around the world EVER SINCE. It also has an appallingly high abortion rate, meaning most problem pregnancies are pre-emptively ended.
Other countries in Latin America have made advances in health without Cuba’s vicious suppression of human rights (which, no doubt, contributes to the island having the highest suicide rate in Latin America). The way public health works in Cuba was nicely illustrated by the case of Dr. Desi Mendoza Rivero, who complained of an outbreak of dengue fever that the regime preferred to ignore in the late 1990s, and was jailed for his trouble. Sepulchrave says "the population's admirable health is one of the key reasons why Castro is still in power." That's actually backwards, Sep: The key reason Castro is still in power is because the people want to keep being healthy (and not riddled with unhealthy bullet wounds). I cannot SERIOUSLY believe anyone thinks the Castro's dictatorship has ANYTHING positive to offer the world, including it's "health care" system. -
Runs the best equipped and trained military on the history of this planet.
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Equipped..yes. Trained..no.
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What was said was said by BBC Newsnight, one of, no; strike that, THE most highly respected news reporting team in the world bar none, in 2006. I'll take the BBC over you any day. Sorry, but there it is.
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We already have government sponsored health care, though: it's called Medicaid. And it represents a large portion of our government's health care budget and isn't terrible good health care, compared to private insurance. Our problem isn't so much our moral responsibility. We have it, both on the left and right. Our problem is always trade offs. We can give everyone in America essentially Super-Medicaid, but it would be horrendously expensive. Even with means testing, providing everyone with government sponsored healthcare may actually be MORE morally irresponsible: if an average family pays $400 a month in private health care and then gets it for "free" through the government, but pays an extra $1000 a month in taxes to pay for it, are we being morally responsible? Maybe, if some families without any now get some. But maybe not, if the trade off is a deep economic recession and everyone now gets substandard health care. So where is the middle ground? Definitely something to ponder, on your part and mine as well. Good discussion 'Bone!
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I totally agree with you about "deserving" certain services from the government. But our government shouldn't stop at healthcare! If citizens can't get to the hospital, or to clinics for medical follow-ups, they should also be provided, no, we have a responsibility to provide them with automobiles if they can't afford it. And what about heat for their houses in the winter? If they can't afford it, we should provide that too! And what about fresh water? That should be provided too! What about food? That is being provided, forget that one. What about a government grant for converter boxes for analog tv sets, when the US goes digital in 2009? That should be provided. What about college education? Again, people should have a "right" to it right? What about our moral responsibility to people who've made bad choices with their debt? We shouldn't let them twist in the wind. And the Swiss? I'd like to take a tour of the Swiss ghetto's and see how Bjorg is getting along in the Swiss-hood. Try to emmigrate to Switzerland! Betcha can't!
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sounds like we agree on the healthcare bit, Fargin. I, personally, think everyone should have access, and that there is an effective way to do it. Maybe I'm a dreamer, but if we make reasonable cuts in the war budget, we can more than pay for healthcare AND cut taxes. I like discussing with you too, Fargin.
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The limey teabags at the BBC are respected by no one in America. And notice the, er, "careful" way they say "partly also to the web of strange rules and regulations that constrict Cuban life". Yeah, strange and constricting rules like if you speak out about your horrible living conditions, you get an AK-47 butt to the jaw. Thanks for the straight talk, Beeb.
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BBC - respected throughout the world. Simply the finest. As for news reporting in the US...yikes, it's something of a joke.
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"From each according to his means to each according to his needs." And sorry kiddies, it's been proven not to work. I lived in Canada during the Hillary-Care debate and when we had something serious happen, we went to New York to get it taken care of because the emergency in Quebec looked like something out the 50's, seriously. We couldn't even go to Vermont because they've "socialized" all of their competent doctors right out of the state. VT is the Forrest Gump of the union.
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my point is that it's not a "service", but a "right". And probably the best solution is not for the government to "provide" it but to create legislation which puts a system in place that DOES provide it. And please don't confuse Switzerland with Sweden, and yes, you should go see a Swiss ghetto--you'd be surprised at how nice it is. And what does immigration have to do with healthcare for citizens?
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Yep, I agree everyone should have access to healthcare too. But you are again talking about trade off when you say "cut the war budget". Can we? The US military is woefully underfunded, believe it or not. We have the only worldwide military today. We defend more than just our own country, but only we are paying taxes on it. So where else do we cut? Some paleo-conservatives that run in my circles say cut the education budget. Or Social Security. Really? Can we afford to do that either? Tough questions.
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" it's been proven not to work". I assume here you are talking about communism? Actually, it has been working for thousands of years in the institution of monastic life. Take a look at how monasteries are run and you will find it very democratic, with group ownership of the land and jobs assigned based on need and ability.
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Yeah, keep drinking the MM cool-aid
http://tinyurl.com/6nd5h
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Disagree with you on the War Budget, bro'. Practically and philosophically. We don't "need" to be in Iraq or Afganistan. We don't "need" to be paying out aid to Israel. Philosophically, the idea of maintaining an army that spends most of it's time on foreign soil is pretty revolting.
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Though they are clearly defined in the Constitution. Highways aren't living things and have no legal rights, certainly not with regards to the Constitution. That the government chooses to fund highway construction and maintenance doesn't constitute any sort of right to those things. The government is simply making a choice and could stop funding it anytime it wanted to. Likewise, the government could choose to fund universal healthcare, though it isn't at this time. It still doesn't make healthcare a Constitutional right.
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I'm inventing a new device that will keep your dick warm in harsh winter weather. It's called the Dick Blanket.
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I do think we need to be in Iraq and Afghanistan. And probably Iran and Syria and North Korea. Not forever, but not never. The problem is no matter how much we are reviled for being the world's policeman, we're it. Again, it's trade offs: which is more revolting? American troops on foreign soil, or Al Qaida troops on domestic soil? Now, you can make an argument about how we encourage jihad by being so "mercenary", and that Iraq isn't part of the war on terror, but I disagree about that and it is off topic. And I bet the cost of health care far outpaces even our huge military budget, but I have no concrete numbers on that. Even if we went down to Swiss military levels, I bet it wouldn't pay for one week's worth of our health care needs in the US. Anyway, agree to disagree.
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...state, income redistributing, socialized government approach. My argument is with Michael Moore's ideas, not with him personally.
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people that will have to be taxed up the wahoo to pay to make the system run? And are any of you in favor of letting people opt out of the universal healthcare system if they don't want to participate?
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Thanks for the link. I'd like to check out some more of it. Not too sure about the Exxon and Philip Morris-funded Independence Institute, but would like to check the facts.
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You're right, this is off-topic. A note about the Swiss military: in 24 hours Switzerland can have a standing army of 100,000. Required military service (of which I am in favor in the US) and yearly mandatory target practice. How exactly, do you support your statement that the US "needs to be in Iraq and Afghanistan"?
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americans did not invent the television. the socts did, although technically, it was an italian inventor although he didnt patent it. The english invented the internet. Breast implants? ill give you that. whoopee-do, your country managed to make breasts look even more stupid.
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It's not the government being a nanny, it's about us taking care of each other. I too, dislike the idea that "they" are responsible. "We" are responsible.
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Universal Healthcare does not have to mean an increase in taxes. See the examples of Switzerland and exclusive license above.
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a heated political discussion between talkbackers who are mostly euphemisms for male and female genitalia.
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Your link is to a document from Independence Institute, a right wing thinktank.
Anyone have a non-partisan link to claims that MM distorted facts in F9/11? -
Facts are facts. While I don't think all of the rebuttals in the document are unassailable, many of them are simple, straight-forward truths. For examle, "11.
The Saudis left the U.S. only after air travel was opened for the general public." This fact is now well-documented and MM's claim that Bush secreted out the Saudis was pure fantasy. It is unfortunate that MM has blown his credibility with this sort of BS. I cannot take him seriously in the least. -
"11. The Saudis left the U.S. only after air travel was opened for the general public."
That point is -
anyways, I was going to say that that point was handled on the Michael Moore site.
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are worth the entire US TV news service combined and multiplied by all the newspapers in America. Your news is a pile of dogshit. With less than 1% foreign coverage. End of story.
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There is no such thing as an Al Qaeda troop, Fargin. Much as the Pentagon Cold War nostalgists would like you to think; the 'War on Terror' should always have been an international POLICE action. The war was for power and resources. Nothing more. And it's backfired. And you've lost. And they have won. And greed was the reason why.
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Fully agree with ya mate,
The BBC at least tries to give the whole picture rather than waving flags and hiding the truth. despite his obvious flaws that is why Michael Moore is so heavily criticised ..........he dares to speak out. (the shock, the horror)
I came to visit USA and found barely any coverage on any incidents around the world not American......despite bombs in Europe (Madrid), a natural disaster in Asia and forest fires in Australia. Not a peep!!!
The BBC make mistakes but atleast try and give us impartial news from around the world. You could learn a little from them..........if your pride allows it.
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For whatever reason, American journalism lost its balls. The BBC's 'The Power of Nightmares' doc is a perfect example of the kind of real reporting that just does not happen here. Even the rabid conservatives I know shrug their shoulders when I mention Leo Strauss... that's really at the heart of why politics in America is so fucked up- people aren't very well informed.
It doesn't take long to connect the dots once you learn about Strauss->the neoconservative movement->the Bush administration->TGWOT... It's not difficult to understand, and if NBC or ABC did a documentary series like 'The Power of Nightmares' when it was pertinent, we wouldn't be in this mess today. -
neo conservatives or whatsleft of them believe that the rest of the world is unamerican and therefore immoral and they believe that the rest of the world should be americanised. and dont like it when countries say no. That is what is happening in the middle east. Arab countries know that the US govt is trying to force them into some sort of militarised christian conversion. Anyway back to moore. The observer news paper did one of its finest articles on Moore called the HUnt for Micheal Moore. Tim adams went to cannes to interview him and got nowhere. Seemingly moore dosnt like interviewers to challenge the facts of his movies, so he does press conferences instead where the questions are limited to his movies. In one of those arena shows he brought to Ireland and the UK, in the UK a lone voice tried to challenge moore but was dragged kicking and screaming out of the building. Moore is big baby who kicks and screams untill he gets what he wants. if I can find that article from the observer i will post the link because it really is worth reading. It is by andrew Anthony...
http://film.guardian.co.uk/cannes2004/story/0,,1222498,00.html -
That article had a consistently pissy, antagonistic tone towards him throughout... It was an annoying read, and didn't present any real claim that his movies distorted facts. There is a claim that there has been nothing built in Littleton (in the Lockheed factory referred to in BfC) that is used in war, but that is false.
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Like I said that is one of the better things about British Journalism. They do try and ask questions for all parties no matter which way they turn.
Michael Moore tries to challenge (reasons still not entirely clear) a system that doesn not tolerate challenge.
If what emerald boy says is true (i do not doubt it) then it is disappointing that Moore professes the same attitudes his films attack....namely that of intolerance, corruption and arrogance.
British policy may be alittle too leniant one way (ie fundamalists being able to preach hatred,) and too harsh another (christians values and traditions losing ground more and more due to government equality laws) but as a nation we have addressed wrongs we have committed in the past and as a result has one of the best economies in the world and a country which tries and help those that are not so fortunate.
Why do so many of the African nations and Eastern Europeans skip western Europe (Germany, France Spain) to come here?
You may argue because we are stupid!! or even it is our duty re- Empire days(sigh). I would say it is because we are compassionate despite recent horrendous mistakes such as Iraq and Afghanistan following others lead.
I like the fact people like Moore challenge these ideals not just in America but Britain and other countries as well.
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And for the record yes i am a Christian and no i am not a right wing nutter. I hate the fact that over here in schools Christmas is called 'winter festival' and Easter barely exists so that we are 'tolerant' and equal to all. It is not the vast majority of those from other countries that has caused this, it is those that believe it is inn the coutries best interest.
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why is very reason why I cant stand Micheal Moore, these days. Moore should have told the full story regarding the neocons rise to power. mistakingly he focused only on bush. big mistake. How bush became president starts in the 1980s. Wolfiwits, cheney, Rummy, bush snr, knew that reagan was weak and when Reagan was shot, they used that time to take over the running of the white house. In 1984, Pat robertson and the late jerry fallwell went to reagan to convince him that they could bring in the evangelical vote. and they did. by 50%. IN 1982, with the neocons, in the positions of power they retained untill recently. They Argued and convinced Reagan to finish off Soviet Union. This was called game theory. Both sides bluffing each other. The usa knew Russia had gone to pieces(the sent in the CIA and they reported as much) and they used there own military threat to bring down the old soviet union. and they had an allie in Rome. What ended Bush senior's term in office was that Paul wolfiwitz wanted to use force against saddam and go all the way to baghdad and finish him off. Bush went behind wolfy back and ordered that the state department hem saddam in. Wolfiwitiz. The neocons got thier revenge in the end as we are all seeing but bush was forced from office as a lame duck leader. Here is where things get very dark. what i am about to write is all true. none of it is made up. Moderate republicans horrified that the evagelists were taking over fled the party. When they all ended up voting for clinton, the newly evangelised repulican party were enraged and decided to plot campaign to destroy the democratic party and its liberal leader bill clinton. What the public had no and has no idea about is just how far the evangelised republicans would. So they set up an office near to where the clintons lived and worked. They called it whitewater. All the staff were paid by the republicans to spy, forge hillary and bills signature of documents which were fake but these people know that the americans are gullible. They brought in Kenneth Star who is a neocon judge. they paid a group of women to say that they all had affairs with bill clinton. Then there is the story of Monica Lewinsky. She worked for someone who was a friend of a senior neocon. They came to her and asked would she like to work in the white house. She liked most democrats loved clinton. Running this whol campaign was newt gingrich. Neocons infiltrated the uniosn in washington. Suddenly Strikes started to happen and blackout occoured in washington. oil, gas and electricity reserves ran out. Then Karl rove was brought in and the whispering started. Americans love there oil and were looking for someone to blame. this was when fox news was brought into to lay into the clinton administration. A young reporter was given 300,000 a year to write up bogus stories for the nation magazine and to go on Crossfire on CNN to air those stories in public. Then they unloaded there canons, First came paula jones, then Jennifer Flowers and someone else and finally monica. Monica was destroyed by the neocons bu they did care. Clinton was being destroyed by very powerful people. Who hated his liberal agenda. They accused by him of murder of bringing drugs in to the country and of generally being immoral and unfit for office. So clinton was impeached and he won. but it was all over and of course clinton did a stupid thing by exonrating Mark Ric. For the past twenty years Cheney was working on a plan with others to make the USA Christian Imperial world power. Now as VP and in the white house, he is full control. Bush knows who the real president is. Bush is the lame duck president looking for a way out. As with blair, Cheney has left it to others to clean up his mess, when Resgigns or dies. It was cheney who said the following thing. A reporter: mister Cheney what do you think of the middle east. Cheney: let it burn. The neocons and Al-qaeda, want different versions of the same thing. Neocons want the world to be a christian empire(this is where the endtimers come). Al-qaeda wants an lslamic one. Nobody wants a war with a Iran. But the Us are being softened up for one. IN the pakistan earthquake bush phoned up the son of bill graham. Billy Graham is the leader of Christian Aid. Suddenly report came in of bibles turning up in opnely muslim areas. these were evangelsitic version of the bible. Christian aid openly admit to bringing god to areas of the world where god doesnt exist. Africa is another area, where the whitehouse is looking to set-up amrican bases. Here is where there is a new form evangelism on the rise. When you hear Rice talk you hear the voice of an evangelist. When she was in the middle east she said she wanted to bring american style principles to the region. that was code for: Christian evangelical fundementalism.
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we get to hear the Syndicated columnist Cal Thomas and democrat Marianne mCkeon. So we get a balance between the sensible sounding McKeone and the frothing rantings of Thomas. Who last week told us all that he knew Jerry Fallwell and While matt was on holiday, the poor on fortunate Anton Savage, interviewed bill o' reilly, who tore savage an new ass. By claimining three times that savage didnt know what he was talking about. Bill claims that he is friends to all people, before laying into what he claims are american haters and that he only agreed to be interviewed cause he is a friend of Cal thomas. Who himself says he takes on all comers. both democrat and republican, he fully supports peoples right to enter america but only if they dont break they law. Thomas supports the minutemen and there right to protect borders and shoot illegals in the head and we also hear from the sherrif of utah. Crazy place america, crazy.
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of MM that he did not go far enough with F9/11. I think his intention with the film was to get the ball rolling for the mainstream news to do their jobs. In a sane world, they would have reported their own 'The Power of Nightmares' before the '04 election.
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have made 150 million each. Farenheit 9/11 pt 2 will make probably more money. By this time bush will be out office, the US will be sick of him and his dopey administration. More money for moore.
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twice. once with a relative who is a filmmaker and then with my mate. The relative felt that it was far too long and need it a major edit and that was. my mate liked it. My own view is that Moore got lost In Iraq. I learnt afterwards that the Who were furious when Moore claimed that they ok'd his use of cant get fooled again and parker and stone turned hi into a suicide bomber after BFC. People came up to them after BFC saying what a good job they did on the animation. Trey or mat sat down and watched it. Moore became hot dog chomping suicide bomber.
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By the way I agree with bringing christianity to places not known for its tolerance. I agree with preaching the word of God to all of the world whether they are in 3rd world, muslim states or any where else. I mean bloody hell Britain certainly needs more of God right now!!
I just do not believe it should be done with tanks and Guns!!
Certain right wing extrmists (I do not include Billy graham in this catagory) believe all those non-christian are sub-human. They seem the sort that if it was 800 years ago they would be riding into the sunset waering a red cross and waving a sword at all those not \greeing with them. Contrary to liberals belief people like Billy Graham would have been burnt at the stake for heresy!!!
In my opinion Christianity is about love, it is religeon that causes the problems. Being legalistick, condeming and judgemental not to mention arrogant and self-rightous is not being Christ like.
That is the what the world paints christianity as -all that is negative without understanding what it is about.
It is those that cause this suffering in the name of christianity that annoy me as they paint the rest of us in the worst light possible.
Any way what were we talking about again..........................ah yes Michael Moore!! -
regarding former Iraqi interpereters who were all employed by the british army. They all been dumped and scattered to live in the Middle east as exiles. Where they are in constant threat from militants. they have been abandoned by the one group of people who promised to bring them freedom. the british army. some of them want to get into to britain. Where they will be deported. Bush and Blair should be ashamed of themselves.
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it's
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this
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am I just going to do
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...?
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the most fun TB in a looonnng time. And it's cool to talk with people I would NEVER talk to in my day-to-day life about this stuff.
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I’m afraid this TB’s horses have run wild and the carriage is in grave danger of spilling its occupants. In fact, the occupants are already dead. And it will take some time to mop up the crimson pools. Honestly folks – I think dinner is ready. Turn off the computer and go eat. The eye-strain is taking its toll.
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itblowstherobot, thank you for taking the time to read an insightful and though-provoking TB that, though it could have easily been criticized for being long-winded, at least had something to do with the TB. Michael Moore – makes documentaries. Therein, he interviews people who usually make asses out of themselves without much provocation. Not a single fact delivered in any of his films can be misconstrued as a lie. Ann Coulter – snorts fire and brimstone. Her adam’s apple – so delicate and shiny – on occasion looks ready to part ways from its neck as she attempts to prove a point. And after the dust has cleared, absolutely nothing of merit has been discussed, issues have not come to light, and certainly no truth-telling has occurred. MM’s films have accomplished a lot. They’ve helped to pry open eyes previously encrusted with the status quo (I like that), which incidentally – as someone has already mentioned – has been a bunch of crap of late. I’m not a lefty, I’m not a righty. I’m a GDI who knows the difference between wrong and right. Discarding people like so much trash for record profits and hiding the evidence – wrong. Making movies to show what evil lurks below the surface – right. Not propaganda – there’s no point of view here. It’s the facts Jacks. Like it or not.
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