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Too Much Confusion Here?? Ronald D. Moore Gives His Post-3.X GALACTICA Interviews!!

I am – Hercules!!
“Battlestar Galactica” mastermind Ron Moore is talking, and he’s answering a lot of questions the fans are asking after Sunday night’s third-season finale. In an interview with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette’s Rob Owen, Moore reveals that, yes, Galen Tyrol, Saul Tigh, Sam Anders and Tory Foster are indeed four of the “final five” Cylons. But Moore also cautions that they are “fundamentally different Cylons.” I'll say! Bill Adama and a lot of others in the colonial fleet witnessed Saul Tigh serving in Cylon War I 40 years ago. He may have even been around before the “invention” of the toaster centurions! Which begs the question, “What are Cylons”? The opening of the show each week tells us that they were “created by man” and that they “evolved” and that they “have a plan.” But. The Final Five Cylons were lurking in the Eye of Jupiter, an edifice supposedly built by human ancestors (or gods, or something) 3,000 years before the toasters were supposedly “invented.” The proposed “Caprica” prequel series, set 50 to 70 years before “Galactica,” would center on civil rights attorney Joseph Adama (Bill’s dad) and his opposition to the early Cylon-creating efforts of somebody named “Greystone.” So was Greystone a Cylon? Was he somehow influenced or directed by Cylons all those years ago to create these robots? And if so, why? And how long ago did the Final Five Cylons “evolve”? And how long has “the plan” been in place? SciFi programming exec Mark Stern once told Owen that the “Caprica” pilot script ends with an explanation of how the Cylons were named:
"Cybernetic, something, organism" was as much as Stern could remember.
(If anybody has a copy of that “Caprica” pilot script, there are - needless to say - a few of us over here who sure would be keen to read it!!) Other highlights of the new Owen-Moore interview: * The 2008 episodes (and perhaps the TV-movie due this autumn?) will deal with the backstories for Galen, Saul, Sam and Tory. “A part of next season's storylines will uncover how they came to be who they are and the specifics of that.” * Moore is not ruling out the idea that Starbuck is only in Apollo’s head. (Real or not, Katee Sackoff will return to her status as series regular next season.) * “Will we meet the final fifth Cylon next season?” asks Owen. “I think so,” replies Moore. * D’Anna will be back if Lucy Lawless’ schedule permits. “We're developing a storyline dealing with D'Anna and what she saw and who she was talking to,” says Moore. * The “entire cast” will be in the Pegasus TV-movie due this autumn. * Moore says whether or not the show will receive a fifth season “has nothing to do with next year's ratings. It's first and foremost a creative decision.” He goes on to say: “I think we would probably not go to them [and ask for more episodes] unless we were pretty sure they would give them to us.” * No matter how many episodes are left, Moore is determined that there will be no unresolved cliffhanger, and that the series will end with Earth. Behold all of the Post-Gazette’s must-read interview with Moore here. **** Meanwhile, Moore gives a much shorter interview to, in which he is asked (among other things): * “Your show was renewed for 13 episodes, then this week you got the extra nine. The renewals of some NBC shows have hinged on budget cuts -- was that the case here?” * “Katie Sackhoff [who plays Starbuck] made it sound in media interviews as if she's off the show and getting new jobs. Was that part of the ruse?” You can read all of TVWeek’s interview here.

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Readers Talkback
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  • March 26, 2007, 2:44 p.m. CST

    Where is the Slings and arrows TB?

    by EvilWizardGlick

    It looks like Slings and Arrows ended its run. Hutt was awesome as the dying actor playing Lear. A real tear jerker. <p> But not a single mention of this season.

  • March 26, 2007, 2:45 p.m. CST

    Caprica shelved?

    by EvilWizardGlick

    I thought Caprica was shelved?

  • March 26, 2007, 2:53 p.m. CST

    Damn you Michael Bay

    by Damnyou

    Damn you Michael Bay

  • March 26, 2007, 3:01 p.m. CST

    So the fijnal five...

    by Childe Roland

    ...are the skin job evolutions of a previous incarnation of cylcons? All of this has happened before...

  • March 26, 2007, 3:03 p.m. CST

    2008? Seriously?

    by Darth_Nader

    Even if they do the Pegasus movie, that leaves 9 months MINIMUM until we pick this storyline back up. That's assuming they start the new season in January next year, and not in May or something later. Taking some time off is one thing, but that is nuts. Why so long?

  • March 26, 2007, 3:07 p.m. CST

    An older, one-eyed, alcoholic Cylon is "different."

    by SpyGuy

    They have a Plan. <p>That plan, apparently, is to turn secondary characters at creative dead-ends into Cylons regardless of how much sense it makes plotwise.</p>

  • March 26, 2007, 3:09 p.m. CST

    Finally figured what it is about this show that I miss

    by redtom

    As a young lad, I'd be watchin the original series and always felt for the rag tag fleet, them being so lost with nothing but this mythical "earth" to strive for - maybe it was the music they used then, but I just don't get that feeling with this show...

  • March 26, 2007, 3:09 p.m. CST

    Well, remember ...

    by Hercules

    ... the Pegasus movie ties into season four. So the Final Five storyline may fit into Pegasus somehow maybe.

  • March 26, 2007, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Pegasus Movie

    by radjac33

    Cains the fifth Cylon

  • March 26, 2007, 3:22 p.m. CST

    chief stuck with a frakin human

    by DaleTremont

    bet tyrol wishes he'd never dropped boomer for cally now.

  • March 26, 2007, 3:25 p.m. CST

    Battle of the hybrid babies

    by Funkasaurus Rex

    So I guess a Cylon making a baby with a human isn't that big of a deal after all.

  • March 26, 2007, 3:28 p.m. CST

    This makes Hera so much less unique then

    by TheHichhiker

    Doesn't it? She is supposed to be the only human-cylon child, but she is certainly not if chief is a cylon... Also, prediction - the last cylon model is........ Bob Dylan

  • March 26, 2007, 3:29 p.m. CST

    Maybe Callie's been gettin some action on the side...

    by seanny_d

    Who knows? She seems like she could be a little slut. Even so, until the "fundamentally different" comment is fleshed out, I really don't think any of us can fully understand. Out of the seven known cylon models, none were easily able to procreate with a human, save for Athena and Helo. So it could be a completely different story for the final five.

  • March 26, 2007, 3:47 p.m. CST

    the fifth cylon is...

    by dr.bulber

    timothy leary. and hes still dead.

  • March 26, 2007, 4:06 p.m. CST

    I can't do it

    by chrth

    I've tried for a couple hours, but I keep running into dead ends. As near as I can tell it, the significance of the Cylon-Human Child is that it's a rejoining of the Earthbound Colony with the 12 (after the sundering from Kobol; cf Matrix: Revolutions or Dark Crystal if you're more puppet-inclined). That means the Skinjobs are actually Earth humans. But I keep falling into traps in terms of timing and communication; if the colonists created the Cylons, how did the Skinjobs get mixed in with them? Have the Final Five been in the colonies since the sundering? Can the Final Five communicate with Earth? Etc.<p> Everytime I start down a path, it branches too quickly to actually determine what's going on. Maybe I need to re-incorporate the Lords of Kobol/Iblis/Ship of Lights into the theory.<p> This may take weeks, not days.

  • March 26, 2007, 4:08 p.m. CST

    This will end...

    by Christopher3

    With the fleet crash landing on a mysterious island in the middle of the South Pacific, dotted with strange research stations emblazoned with a "Dharma" logo.

  • March 26, 2007, 4:09 p.m. CST

    no reason trying to "figure it out"

    by master bitchfist

    moore explained that hes making it up as he goes along

  • March 26, 2007, 4:12 p.m. CST

    Just gotta say...

    by bubcus

    I loved this season finale. The courtroom showdown was great, the four of the five revelation was as shocking to me as it was to them, and I loved that last minute where Apollo is reunited with a lost friend. Very cool. I'm sooo looking forward to picking back up where we left off. This single episode reinviggorated me with the series. Thank you, guys.

  • March 26, 2007, 4:18 p.m. CST

    I totally missed this season

    by Volstaff

    I work on Sundays, and after missing the first few episodes, I didn't even think of trying to tape them. It's one of those shows if you miss an episode or two, you may as well hang it up. That and I thought last year they were running out of steam toward the end of the season. Right now, Heroes is the must see show for me. Maybe I'll try and catch back up when they bring out the dvd for this season.

  • March 26, 2007, 4:27 p.m. CST

    mb: Oh, I'm not trying to 'figure it out'

    by chrth

    What I do is look for a solution based on a puzzle I'm given. I have no illusions that what I come up with is 'the answer', for me it's an intellectual exercise: if I was given the keys to the franchise, how would I resolve everything going forward?<p> My particular problem is the apparent need to add factors that have not yet been revealed to resolve it. When I typically do this, I limit myself to what has already happened. So the whole Ships of Light/Iblis/etc. stuff from the old show I would not normally consider in this situation because it's barely (if at all) hinted at. I think, though, that the original show has to be considered because of its influence.<p> I think it's time to watch the old show. Did I say weeks? I meant months.

  • March 26, 2007, 4:29 p.m. CST

    Moore's an ass when it comes to HDTV

    by NickC

    Not into Battlestar HD??? Have you seen BSG in HD, it is fucking (fracking?) amazing.. I wanted BSG on NBC just for the HD... oh well...

  • March 26, 2007, 4:35 p.m. CST

    NickCatal's an ass...

    by reinhold

    ...for thinking RDM has anything to do with the decision of whether SciFi broadcasts in HD. And rumor has it that SciFi *will* be in HD by next January.

  • March 26, 2007, 4:40 p.m. CST

    Why does this great show get poor ratings?


    I honestly think BSG is one of the best programs ever made. I don't say this as a geeky fanboy. This program is truly redefining it's genre and is head and shoulders better than anything on the major networks. It is a huge critical darling and dvd sales + Itunes are great. So why does this program get poor ratings?

  • March 26, 2007, 4:45 p.m. CST

    I call RATHOLE!!!

    by Kelvington

    we seem to be so far down the rathole here that I can't get out. If those four really ARE cylons, it's poor writing at best. A cheap and lazy solution to something that didn't need solving. BSG suffers from nitpicking like lepers at a buzzard convention, but seriously, I don't accept these four as cylons. It's just stupid.

  • March 26, 2007, 4:48 p.m. CST

    Hmm well..

    by Sly Fox

    I just finished watching the last episode and I can't say I was that impressed, it wrapped up the Baltar trial well but the final five stuff just was an anti-climax for me. They're going to make peace with the Cylons before they reach Earth and end up doing exactly what the Cylons did to Caprica... in a lot of ways I miss the original, is it too late for Richard Hatch's Second Coming show?

  • March 26, 2007, 4:54 p.m. CST

    There must be a way to get better ratings for BSG


    This program has a huge cult following and is also one of the most articulate and well written programs ever in any genre. There must be a way for the marketing people at NBC/Sci-Fi to boost the ratings. BSG is not a boring piece of crap like the last few ST series. This is groundbreaking tv that will rank among the best programs ever made. How could BSG get taken off the air for poor ratings. Yet mindless shit like Friends and American Idol (or any other reality progrmam) attract such large audiences?

  • March 26, 2007, 5:06 p.m. CST

    AICN Talkbackers: has BSG gone the way of LOST?

    by aceattorney


  • March 26, 2007, 5:18 p.m. CST

    What if the FINAL FIVE were created by us (Earth)

    by tritium

    What if the Final Five...which R. Moore states are fundamentally different, were in fact created by the 13th Tribe (Earth), and sent back to the original Colonies. If Earth (13th Colony) became more technically advanced then the original Colonies, this could account for them designing human-type Cylons prior to the original Colonies developing even the original Machine/Mechanical Cylons. >>> Just a thought.

  • March 26, 2007, 5:25 p.m. CST

    tritium - are the "skinjobs" machines???

    by TheHichhiker

    We always asume the "skinjobs" are cylons or at least machines engineered by cylons, but what if they (all of them, not just last/first five) are humans (or at least biological beings) that joined forces with cylons for whatever reason and use cylon tech for cloning/resurrection? The term "hybrid" suddenly makes much more sense.... We are never explained why "skinjobs" are not distinguishable from other humans.... Just a thought

  • March 26, 2007, 5:42 p.m. CST

    Ahnuld is the Final Fifth

    by spud mcspud

    How did all this work? Simple. The Cylons were created by Skynet. They went back in time to the Eye of Jupiter to ensure that they got created. Ahnuld Schwarzenegger fucked D'Anna Beers, creating Xena: Warrior Lesbian and Red Brigitte Nielsen. And Tigh is a Cylon because... ah hell, Chris Carter just entered the building!!!

  • March 26, 2007, 5:44 p.m. CST


    by spud mcspud

    You, sir, invented sci-fi shark jumping. I hope your surfboard snaps. Now leave Ronald Moore! The power of the riff compels you!!!!

  • March 26, 2007, 5:45 p.m. CST

    The Fifth Cylon=Arvin Sloane!

    by Darth_Gonz


  • March 26, 2007, 5:57 p.m. CST

    No was is BSG becoming Lost

    by CrimsonJihad

    Yeah, last night's episode provoked more questions than answers. But I would say overall the answer to question ratio dwarves the one found in Lost.

  • March 26, 2007, 5:57 p.m. CST

    No way is BSG becoming Lost

    by CrimsonJihad

    Yeah, last night's episode provoked more questions than answers. But I would say overall the answer to question ratio dwarves the one found in Lost.

  • March 26, 2007, 6:14 p.m. CST


    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Apparently, the network knows that he ratings are actually better than the figures make it appear. They have been trying to get a consensus on the number of internet downloads (iTunes) and those watched via DVR. According to them, the ratings are better than they thought.

  • March 26, 2007, 7:10 p.m. CST

    The Fifth Cylon is Pretty Obvious

    by Itchy

    It's Andy Richter. Discuss.

  • March 26, 2007, 7:18 p.m. CST

    Tritium: I was thinking something along the lines

    by chrth

    Although I'm wondering if they were LEFT BEHIND (in other words, Earthlings are no different from the skinjobs), and that Earth can communicate directly with them. Thus the prophecies and the fact they gained awareness in the Nebula.<p> If this is the case, Starbuck is definitely a Cylon.

  • March 26, 2007, 7:35 p.m. CST

    Better ratings? Repeat the series on NBC in HD!

    by performingmonkey

    For fuck's sake, get this motherfrakker on NBC in glorious HD. From the miniseries through to the end then premiere season 4 on NBC, there you've got your better ratings.

  • March 26, 2007, 7:44 p.m. CST

    So does this mean....

    by torpor_haze

    if the actor who played Billy stuck around he would've been a cylon?

  • March 26, 2007, 7:46 p.m. CST

    Maybe the Final 5 can be ANY human

    by FluffyUnbound

    The 5 are just consciousness, and jumped into these 4 [plus Roslin?] while the fleet was in the supernova system. It's just asking too much for them to have been cylons the whole time. Too many coincidences, too many ways things could go wrong. Anders and Tigh could have caught a stray bullet dozens of times. Tori could have been killed during the occupation. The Chief could have died in the fire in the mini, or when Baltar stopped his heart. No, for those 4 people to be alive and still in the fleet takes way too high a degree of control if this was always "the plan". It only works if the 5 are "possessing" them.

  • March 26, 2007, 7:51 p.m. CST

    said the joker to the theif

    by Darth_Baltar

    so how is moore gonna explain a BOB DYLAN song hummming through the four new cylon heads???? puh-leeze. ROME closed out much much better

  • March 26, 2007, 7:53 p.m. CST

    theif = cheif thief, or just piss poor typing

    by Darth_Baltar

    tally the votes, just don't use florida machines

  • March 26, 2007, 8 p.m. CST

    Its a chicken or the egg thing now

    by aboriginal

    What preceded humans? It has happened before and it will happen again. Is Earth, the final colony, waiting as the Human/Cylon/human-Cylon plays itself out over and over again until they get it right and find them. And, once they find Earth will they be deemed ready to take the mantle? Are the final five Cylons not Cylons really at all, but self created hybrids themselves? Are the other seven an attempt to purge out the impurity to get to a true Cylon? PITA it is and I feel we're being toyed with too much as viewers where RDM may not know where he's really going with this.

  • March 26, 2007, 8:03 p.m. CST

    FluffyUnbound: The problem with that theory

    by chrth

    Is that RDM does not deny that the Chief/Cally child is Half-Cylon. If Chief just became a Cylon, that wouldn't be the case. HOWEVER, I am considering the possibility that the Final 5 don't resurrect; instead, they reincarnate. Chief has been a Cylon since birth, as have all of them. If Chief dies, his Cylon-ness passes to a child(?).<p> I think I like this idea (Reincarnation instead of Resurrection).

  • March 26, 2007, 8:09 p.m. CST

    Everyone knows the 5th Cylon is...

    by Breotan

    Milo Giacomo Rambaldi.

  • March 26, 2007, 8:19 p.m. CST

    Ok, wait, how's this

    by chrth

    The Final Five are actually The First Five, "Cylons" left behind by the Earth colonists to receive communications from them. The prophecies came from a Final Five because he/she was in direct communication with the Earth-bound fleet. The *purpose* of the Final Five was so that the 12 colonies could reunite with Earth at one point.<p> Here's where it gets tricky. There are different triggers programmed into the Final Five for necessity's reasons, like the prophecies just mentioned. In addition, at one point one or more of the Final Five *created the Cylons*. Perhaps he/she was looking to duplicate their existence, but was only partially successful (resurrect instead of reincarnate). Since it was a flawed creation, evolution took place but not in the way expected. Thus the Cylon Wars.<p> Now we've reached another triggering event, this time the journey to Earth (although Chief was actually triggered at the Eye of Jupiter temple). They're fulfilling their 'programming'. This also explains why the skinjobs aren't fully *evil*, because they're merely flawed (remember what Cavil said: they want to try to be perfect robots, i.e. they're not already).<p> Ok, I think I like where this is going.<p> PS: Another possible purpose is that the Final Five were left behind by the Lords of Kobol, and the way to Earth is a trap.

  • March 26, 2007, 8:25 p.m. CST

    pop quiz. you're making it up as you go along

    by Mr_X

    <br> <p>and you dont know who your final five are going to be. do you a) say to everyone, you knew who exactly would be the final 5 b) pick and choose chracters you know would cause cnntreversy c) release pictures of the final 5 in a dream state and have all white people, and then decide to make tory a final five member even though she's brown </br> </p>

  • March 26, 2007, 8:40 p.m. CST

    I cry Bullshit!

    by arrangedletters

    R: Why flashbacks? RM: There is a tie from these episodes into the events in season four. ... It's an opportunity to set up something for the fourth season that had not been told to the audience and that the characters themselves hadn't realized, and then go into the fourth season. This is a fancy way of saying RETCON!

  • March 26, 2007, 8:46 p.m. CST


    by chromedome

    Okay, I think the following numbers are correct: (and NO, it is NOT set to the tune of the 12 days of Christmas!)<p> final 5 cylons<p> 12 Lords of Kobol<p> 12 tribes <p> a 13th tribe that went to earth<p> 7 known cylon skin-job models<p> 4 newly introduced FDcylons (fundamentally different)<p> I read in one TB a post referring to 5 Lords of Kobol--I am not sure if there are 5 or 12. But if there were 12, one for each tribe, then a 13th tribe implies a possible 13th lord.<p>We had a "never said I was Leoben" so maybe he was the 13th?<p>RDM has now stated for the record that the four newly identified cylons are from the final 5, but are Fundamentally Different.<p>He also said that the reason that Roslyn, Athena, and CapSix shared the same 'dream' is because they are fundamentally different. So, is there an implication here that both humans and cylon skin jobs can BECOME Fundamentally Different Cylons? Maybe they were not so much "activated" as "transitioned"....<p>Starbuck also went thru a transition, and the One Who Was Not Leoben had a turn of phrase about what he was preparing her for that had a "transition" sort of meaning.<p>Starbuck warranted LOTS of special attention during and after her detention on Old Caprica, undergoing a fair amount of genetic testing. Possibly the cylons noticed something transitional about her, without understanding it fully. Hence all the subsequent interest in her.

  • March 26, 2007, 8:48 p.m. CST

    Everyone's a Cylon!

    by RumpleWho

    Did we say final five, we meant the final twenty-six, sorry, you see only the final five knew about the really final twenty-six.

  • March 26, 2007, 8:49 p.m. CST

    Not Really Leoben was...

    by chromedome

    instrumental in transitioning Starbuck into Destiny Fulfillment and Finding Earth, so Not Really Leoben has some direct and fundamental linkage to earth and the 13th tribe

  • March 26, 2007, 8:49 p.m. CST

    Good lord (repost)

    by Handiana Jolo

    First, thanks to chrth to pointing out the discussion on the topic I was posting on was here. At the risk of being one of those guys, I'm gonna repost some of my rant here since upon reading this TB it seems more relevant here than in the season finale thread:<br><br>Can people please stop bitching about writers "making things up as they go along" and as it were some sort of penetrating and meaningful analysis?<br><br>What do some of you think writing a story is? Whether they make it up beforehand, or during, or cut an episode differently in post, they're still ALWAYS making it up, and to an extent, they will ALWAYS reach a point in the story that things will evolve beyond the original vision. Shit, this is a long book with many chapters, you don't think writers have changed things in books because they surprise themselves at how things have turned out?<br><br>How many great shows (or shows period) do you think have had an ironclad plan from day one till the season finale that held up? You don't think things ever change, like when they discover an actor is funnier than they thought, or this storyline ends up being more interesting than that one?<br><br>Initially, Tyrol didn't have the role he turned out to assume. Cally was never supposed to be anything. Helo was supposed to be left on Caprica. The Falcon blew up in the second Death Star. Leia became Luke's sister. Ed on Northern Exposure became more interesting than anticipated.<br><br>Trust me, anyone familiar with the creative process will tell you it's always in flux, that if you always stuck to an ironclad 5-season plan from day one with unassailable character bios and no room for improvisation (oh, how you guys must hate improv, IT'S ALL MADE UP AS THEY GO ALONG!), you wouldn't make it to a season 5.<br><br>Criticize the show all you want, that's fine. Just please stop saying, "Oh no! They're making it up as they go!" To me, it's like bitching, "Shit! They wrote this book on paper!"

  • March 26, 2007, 8:50 p.m. CST

    Maybe we only got a final four...

    by chromedome honor of March Madness

  • March 26, 2007, 9:05 p.m. CST

    chromedome: good point

    by chrth

    The #1 seeds were Adama, Adama, Starbuck, and Baltar, so a lot of upsets had to be involved, especially since Tory was a 7 seed at best.

  • March 26, 2007, 9:17 p.m. CST

    Has anyone wondered why...

    by Epsilon

    Starbuck came back in a Viper? Even if she ejected from her blew up. I just assumed that she would return by jacking that Cylon ride. So how is this possible if she is real? Did she take that raider to Earth, and find that there are Vipers on Earth? Or is she just in Lee's head?

  • March 26, 2007, 9:22 p.m. CST


    by chromedome

    I noticed right off that Starbuck's viper outperformed Lee's, and he was already flying the newest model. So both Starbuck and her Viper are, dare I say it: fundamentally different...

  • March 26, 2007, 9:24 p.m. CST

    A Long Time Ago in a Galaxy Far, Far Away...

    by Long Tooth

    ...Wouldn't it be a funny if the whole storyline took place in Earth's past, explaining where we took all our our religions from? Not to mention a funny take on the opening Star Wars tag line...

  • March 26, 2007, 9:26 p.m. CST


    by slkboxrman

    loved the season finale, especially starbuck visiting apollo at the end and the whole galaxy zoom from where galactica is to where earth is...very cool.. just a question about the final 5 cylon models... maybe those 4 are 4 of the final 5, but as to whether theyre from earth or not is the question....remember when baltar was on the base ship and he was told that the final 5 were "boxed" ..shouldnt that figure into this analysis somehow ?? and as of d'annas last appearance her model was being "boxed" as maybe the 4 are 4 of the final 5 models but i think the 5 in the dreams are different cylons, if cylons at all...any thoughts ?? cuz i remember a still frame online somewhere of the 5 in the dreams and they were different than the 4 that we are being told are cylons, save maybe 2...maybe im just spacing , opinions ?

  • March 26, 2007, 9:27 p.m. CST

    starbucks viper

    by slkboxrman

    on the subject of starbucks viper, didnt it seem shiny and brand new ?

  • March 26, 2007, 9:41 p.m. CST

    Apollo and Starbuck

    by jtishere

    As to how Starbuck "outflew" Apollo at the end, I was under the impression that she was always the better pilot. Lee may have more maturity, but in terms of pure flying skills, it's Kara. As to Starbuck's Viper "blowing up" in front of Lee two episodes prior, I think it's helpful to remember that the Heavy Raider was only visible to Starbuck. Whether you want to call it a projection or a hologram, I'm sure the writers will provide an explanation in due course.

  • March 26, 2007, 9:43 p.m. CST

    Weird stuff.

    by SylarTheCylon

    So what could the cylons want? I'm not sure Ron Moore knows. I agree with those that say he's probably making it up as he goes along. But that does not mean he won't come up with something spectacular. BSG is the best sci-fi show i've ever seen on tv, so i'll give the man the benefit of the doubt and just enjoy the ride. I do hope he pursues the religious angle a bit more and starts introducing seraphs, satan and stuff like that. The crazier the better. Regarding the final five, maybe they are the in-head people we keep seeing? HeadSix, HeadBaltar, NotLeoben etc. Maybe they can hop around from one persons (and cylon's) head to another as they see fit. Maybe they want to use Tigh now, so he'll start seeing his HeadWife, Anders will start seeing HeadStarbuck etc. Maybe when you are possessed by a final five cylon you are in a way a "fundamentally different" cylon because the mixture of essences, human and cylon that occur. Maybe that's what Ron Moore means.

  • March 26, 2007, 9:46 p.m. CST

    Baltar and his followers = Jesus and his Disciples...

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    It's kind of predictable. Baltar and his followers will be regarded as blasphemous by the other religious groups, while the military will see them as a growing threat to law and order. Baltar, meanwhile, will insist to his followers that he's not special or gifted, but in-head Six will convince him otherwise.

  • March 26, 2007, 9:54 p.m. CST

    Boy, TASG gets around; from Sparta to deep space...

    by Pennsy


  • March 26, 2007, 9:55 p.m. CST

    NBC should play BSG as a summer replacement


    I don't know how realistic this is but I think it would be a great idea if NBC ran BSG throughout the summer. It would work for both parties. NBC gets cheap programing and BSG gets the visibility it deserves + allows new fans to catch up with what has already gone on.

  • March 26, 2007, 9:58 p.m. CST

    The 5th Cylon is...

    by Pennsy

    What, you expect me to spoonfeed it to ya? Let's have some suggestions; it's a long way until early January '08.

  • March 26, 2007, 9:59 p.m. CST

    NBC reruns and in HD...

    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    I've wondered if they could do that by airing 10 episodes from Season 3 over the summer: The first 4 episodes, the algae planet two-parter, the Starbuck death episode, and the last 3 episodes.

  • March 26, 2007, 10:02 p.m. CST


    by Prof. Pop-Cult

    I would bank it's either Adm. Kane (since this would tie the upcoming Pegasus TV movie with Season 4), or an entirely new character whom we haven't met yet (and who could first appear in the Pegasus movie).

  • March 26, 2007, 10:11 p.m. CST

    To borrow a phrase from Blade Runner

    by Hervoyel

    ...and adapt it to my needs "I was quit when I saw the first half of this. I'm twice as quit now." I can't help it. Anyone who still hungers for more of this I'm not bashing you. By all means enjoy yourselves. We all find different things entertaining and I'm sure some of the TV I watch would sound stupid to many of you. That's where BSG has gotten to with me. To me it seems stupid now. BSG I think has just taken a nose-dive deep into some truly stupid shit. I think this has been a long time coming for me. It's not the BSG I wanted to see. The big fans of the original series wanted to see something like that. I loved the miniseries and I wanted to see something that stayed close to what the miniseries did. I basically think that I was looking for something more grounded in technology and reality and less focused on the religous aspects of their world. I really wasn't interested in plumbing the depths of Cylon history and culture. I find the fact that at least 4 of the last 5 Cylons were posing as humans and coincidentally survived the attack and made it to the fleet (and survived New Caprica) to be just laughable. It's so silly that you can't not laugh when you think about it. Ron Moore maybe making it up as he goes but you would think that he'd try a little harder wouldn't you?

  • March 26, 2007, 10:12 p.m. CST

    The end of something great?

    by electroaddict

    I really, really loved BSG up until this point. I even put up with the crappy 3rd season "filler" episodes in hope that the writers would eventually get their shit together. If this article is true, I really don't have much faith in Ron or any other writers to pull this shitty season 3 "cliffhanger" out of the gutter. I'll definitely give season 4 a chance, but I have a VERY hard time believing that those 4 characters, especially SAUL, are part of the final 5 cylons... I want to be on board- but GOD'S DAMN IT they'd better spin me one hell of a fan-fucking-tastic story to explain this crap.

  • March 26, 2007, 10:13 p.m. CST

    The president is the 5th cylon

    by hst666

    There. I said it. I hope no one else said it here as I skipped a lot of posts after the forst 20 or so. A lot of evidence points to her being the cylon, although those could all be red herrings.

  • March 26, 2007, 10:42 p.m. CST

    To add on to Prof Pop's idea

    by chromedome

    the 5th might well appear in the Pegasus mini--but may not necessarily be someone we have not met yet. Maybe we should watch for someone who is surprisingly present in the Pegasus mini--for example, the woman who asked Baltar to bless her son, and who helped him at the end last night. Someone pointed out that she also appeared in Baltars Drowning Dream. I can't confirm that, since I don't have it recorded. But if she did, and if she appears in the Pegasus mini, well that Would be interesting, eh?<p>Both Tori and Roslyn made very specific and prolonged eye contact with her at one point during the trial...

  • March 26, 2007, 10:44 p.m. CST


    by chromedome

    comcast digital hd lineup recently added the Universal HD channel, and they are airing Season 3 in HD now--about half a season behind, but still....<p>worth it!

  • March 26, 2007, 10:49 p.m. CST

    Because I can't "justenjoythefrakkingstory"

    by NetProphet

    As I was saying on the other thread, I find the backwards way used to fill four of the five white cloaks to be lazy story telling. We needed four bodies, so we just decided on these guys. Anybody would have been fine really. Flipped a coin to choose between making one of them Anders or Seelix. Any inconsistencies or implausibilities? That's o.k. - we'll use the device of explaining it all away because they are fundamentally different. While the creators are free to, and should, continue to develop their story as it progresses (as "anyone familiar with the creative process should be aware"), for me I find that suspension of disbelief is easier to maintain when there is some cannonical consistency. Thus, when someone complains that writers are making it up as they go along, which we of course all realize they in fact are, what we are really complaining about is some sudden deviation from the known laws we've seen applied to that universe. This is especially true of certain genre shows, sci-fi in particular, that have a so-called "mythology" to them. While week to week such shows may deal with different topics and many "fillers", we expect that the mythology has been planned out and has a point to it. We're hoping that is the case with Lost. In BSG's case, we were told early on that there are 12 Cylon models. A favorite fan topic following the mini became guessing who would fill the remaining 8 pairs of shoes and why. To find out that the writers did not have an established plan for a mere 8 spots and that in the end run I could have been named one of them for all that it matters, I am highly disappointed. That being said, I have no plans to abandon the show (although the last several episodes were the weakest by far of the series). I am hopeful that some good storytelling can redeem this flaw for me and re-suspend my disbelief.

  • March 26, 2007, 11:06 p.m. CST

    I love this show...

    by Russman

    And I'm gonna keep loving it. Sorry haters.

  • March 26, 2007, 11:11 p.m. CST


    by ManosTHOF

    Agreed. So say we all!

  • March 26, 2007, 11:26 p.m. CST

    When will a reporter ask the real question

    by jccalhoun

    "What was the deal with those stupid 'deleted' scenes at the end of the episodes?" I want to know whose idea that was and what the logic of it was.<br><br>And I still don't buy that those four are cylons. Not until 2008 and they say it in an episode. Everything else could just be misdirection from Moore.

  • March 26, 2007, 11:36 p.m. CST

    Testing, 1, 2 Test , Test ...

    by Evil_Imp

    Is this thing on?

  • March 26, 2007, 11:53 p.m. CST

    Great post So-Crates

    by Shivv

    I'm with you regarding people bitching about writers "making it up as they go along." Just want to add a few more examples to the ones you provided: <p>Spike was supposed to die about halfway through Season 2 of Buffy(a show which, by the way, had a 5-yer plan that they deviated from heavily). Not to mention the fact that Wesley never would have ended up on Angel if the guy playing Doyle had not been a problem on the set. Seelix was only supposed to be a character in the background until Aaron Douglas ad-libbed in a scene and gave her a name. Not to mention one of the best examples in Lost, where Jack was supposed to die halfway through the pilot, with de-facto leadership falling to Kate instead.

  • March 27, 2007, 12:07 a.m. CST


    by bobtlizard

    if the final five can jump into or posess bodies it makes sense that they have already been shown as beings of light. Maybe they are just energy beings?

  • March 27, 2007, 12:22 a.m. CST

    "Making it up as they go" argument....

    by seanny_d

    It's obvious Moore has a relative "plan." He's gone so far as to saying there are two more "chapters" of the story that need to be told. On a macro level, I think he must have a relative idea. On the micro level, he didn't know who the final five were going to be. He just knows they are important. I'd be willing to bet that he understands cylons quite well, regardless of who they are portraying. <p>Where the "making it up as they go" argument really works is instances like Alias where they drop dense mythology on you, like Rambaldi, and then contradict themselves a year later, completely mucking up the entire basis of the show. Alias REALLY suffered in that regard. <p>BSG has yet to experience such a point of no return. Yes, some retcon may be necessary but why is that always such a TERRIBLE thing? The fact is, we don't know what explanation they're going to have for the final five's genesis, and a quality show like Battlestar is NOT just going to drop the whole "I've been fighting cylons since before they were skinjobs" angle. So I'm having a little bit of faith that they'll come up with a satisfying explanation. The fact is, if the explanation is lame, then I'll be first to jump on the talkback and cry foul. But until then, I've enjoyed what I've seen thus far and am curious to where they go next. <p>For the record, I do find it a LITTLE BIT silly that 4 of the five undercover cylons were able to survive the attack on the colonies. That's going to be a tough one to explain.

  • March 27, 2007, 12:23 a.m. CST


    by slkboxrman

    i dont know why im always surprised by the comments that the writers are making it up as they go just because the story isnt going the way u feel it should be going or focusing on the things u think it should be focusing on... i dont think there are "filler" episodes, every episode drives parts of the plot along, and every episode is relevent. there are reasons why these people are doing TV shows and the rest of u are sitting here whining... and thanks for proving it regularly

  • March 27, 2007, 12:24 a.m. CST


    by electroaddict

    Some of the posts on this talkback are such bullshit. When did anyone's small bit of criticism turn into condemning them as a "hater"? As I've said before, I've loved BSG until this point. Now, after the season 3 finale, I'm not quite so sure... I'm more than willing to give season 4 a chance. But goddamn it, the first few episodes of season 4 better be GREAT or I'm out. I'm willing to suspend disbelief to a certain extent, but I won't be a ronny moore sycophant if the series starts to turn to shit.

  • March 27, 2007, 12:25 a.m. CST

    Tigh is an "Old-Fashioned" Ceylon

    by wingnut328

    One red eye

  • March 27, 2007, 12:33 a.m. CST


    by chromedome

    Thanks!! That was GREAT!<p>if his eye starts moving sinusoidally from left to right and back again, DEAD GIVEAWAY!

  • March 27, 2007, 12:41 a.m. CST

    Lord, How Stupid Can It Get?

    by Professor Krapp

    Sorry, this show is just so ridiculous anymore I can only laugh at the story. I couldn't take this shit seriously if you pointed a gun at my head. I respect the rest of you who like the show - we can't all like the same thing, nor should we, but this show has jumped a tank full of sharks. What Moore has to say makes me cringe. Thank the Gods I don't like this show any longer, otherwise I'd be really pissed about having to wait until 2008.

  • March 27, 2007, 12:49 a.m. CST

    One thing for certain has "jumped the shark"...

    by chromedome

    ...and that is using the phrase "jumped the shark"<p>Oh, krapp, I just used it....<p>;-)

  • March 27, 2007, 12:54 a.m. CST

    That's the First Time I Ever Used it

    by Professor Krapp

    And I've only been in the talkbacks about 4 weeks. I didn't know the phrase was taboo. Forgive me and I will never use it again. From now on, only obscure, sesquipedalian words and phrases.

  • March 27, 2007, 1:05 a.m. CST

    just kiddin around, Professor

    by chromedome

    it is, in fact, a Pervasive Phrase, sir. <p>forgive me, instead... no offense intended.<p>dammit, now I got look up sesquipiliciousexpialidocious.....

  • March 27, 2007, 2:43 a.m. CST


    by chrisd

    The series will end with Boxey staring at a snowglobe.

  • March 27, 2007, 2:56 a.m. CST

    Starbuck is in Apollo's head

    by J-Dizzle

    The whole Apollo-Starbuck encounter at the end of the finale was very reminiscent of Starbuck's interaction with not-really-Leoben in Maelstrom. Mark my words, Starbuck will be the death of Apollo.

  • March 27, 2007, 5 a.m. CST

    I think it will be interesting...

    by mrfan

    to see how the relationship between Tigh and Adama is affected. I always enjoyed their scenes and genuine affection for one another. I wonder if Adama knows more than he is letting on about the situation.<p> Also, I do believe that Moore has an ending in sight. Plots change and/or have to be adjusted. Many things happen. People quit. Other characters become popular. Heck, even changing the budget of the show can affect it. Sometimes you have to roll with the punches. I hope that Moore stays on course with the final idea. The only thing I ask is that the show does resolve all the issues before ending. They now have a whole season to plan this.<p> One final thing. Was the female in charge of the trial Michael Hogan's wife? She look familar.<p> This is going to be a looooooong wait for this show. I may have to freeze myself until it is ready to air.

  • March 27, 2007, 5:21 a.m. CST

    So the song then...

    by Lemming

    Perhaps as these four cylons have different characteristics to the other skinjobs that includes picking up low-frequency transmissions?

  • March 27, 2007, 5:23 a.m. CST

    Count me in with Fluffy

    by GhostofCicero

    The Final Five have entered the minds of these humans. And I don't think we can forget the influence of the God's, they may not be mythological in the BG universe and this could be a Sci Fi Iliad. The God's were real and involved in the siege of Troy.

  • March 27, 2007, 6:11 a.m. CST

    A "Different" Cylon?

    by The Reef

    Compatible DNA - Can Cross breed with humans. So, that means Cylon and Human are the same species. The difference lies in the mind. The human mind is 90% unused (read the talkbacks for proof), so it could mean that the mind is being "programmed" with genetic memory with a retrovirus containing the Cylon "strain" or that the Cylons were the 13th tribe and we poor earth bound thirteens are Cylons too... And if the organic Cylons are created by a retrovirus then President Roslyn (who cured her cancer with it) is one too... By your command. The Reef.

  • March 27, 2007, 6:27 a.m. CST

    Congratulations Ron Moore!

    by Maniaq

    You have officially found the new term for what was previously referred to as "jumping the shark" - from now on this thoughtless act of storytelling suicide will be known as "Final Fiving" a show...<br> <br> How fitting that it is an old Star Trek hack who takes up the mantle in this ignoble tradition...<br> <br> Most of your second season was "meh" quality and then your season cliffhanger was a complete polished turd. Lucky some of us have been die-hard since the cancellation of the original series so we hung in there and then you pulled a spectacular sub-orbital jump and rekindled our interest...<br> <br> Sadly the rest of the season sucked - especially when you introduced us to the concept of the "Final Five" Cylons who, at the time, were supposedly "boxed" because they went crazy. To add salt to the wound, you hung us all out to dry with the worst ever season finale in the history of television - featuring the most pathetic piss poor use of a once unfuckable Bob Dylan song (someone had to say it) which seems to serve no useful purpose beyond your own narcissistic self-indulgence - and we are not left wondering what is going to happen, but rather WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED??<br> <br> You, sir, totally Final Fived this franchise! I used to be a lover but now I am officially a HATER!

  • March 27, 2007, 6:28 a.m. CST

    if anyone started watching the show on the last ep...

    by Amy Chasing

    (if you didn't get scared away by the opening "previously" montage - that was like an episode in itself) don't worry... no one knows what it all means yet either. :) <P> gotta admit though, was that the perfect book-end to Season 3? why, yes. yes I think it was. <P> so as it stands: Season 1 - the introductions. Season 2 - what they believe. Season 3 - who they are. Season 4 - what it all means? <P> So Kara Thrace & Her Special Destiny is Starbuck on lead vocals. Tigh on drums. Anders on guitar. Tyrol on bass. and Foster on percussion or something. yeah, that works. <P> And is it just me or could Foster be a download of Billy? They are supposed to be fundamentally different Cylons. Maybe these ones can download into someone else "mid-life". Which would then beg the question, if you kill a Final Five now - who's body would they then download to? Just how many Cylon bodies are there out there? aaarrrgh, don't listen to my rantings, just bring on the next season before we all start hearing music!

  • March 27, 2007, 6:31 a.m. CST

    "The human mind is 90% unused" Only in your case

    by chrth

    So if I put a bullet in your brain, there's a 90% chance no damage will occur? I can't believe you criticized talkbackers and you believe in stupid urban legends like that!<p> (remove the spaces)

  • March 27, 2007, 6:31 a.m. CST

    Wait, seriously, that was the big reveal?

    by Horseflesh

    You hear music and wander into a room and find out a few other people are there - I SIMPLY MUST BE AN EVIL ROBOT! I was kinda hoping for something more concrete on film than that before RDM starts confirming it.

  • March 27, 2007, 6:34 a.m. CST

    Actually, I think she's Indian or Pakistani

    by chrth

    But I could be wrong

  • March 27, 2007, 7:02 a.m. CST

    Until those 5 hoods are actually pulled back...

    by Long Tooth

    I'm suspecting the "four cylons" revealed are actually just a "red herring". (Forget what Moore claims, they already lied about Starbuck's death on the show, the actress not returning to the series, etc. They say in interviews whatever serves their goal. I can actually respect that, considering the internets penchant for spoilage.) Anyway, all four "revealed cylon characters" were on New Caprica and I'm wondering if something wasn't done to them while they were there. Either way, I think what they're indicating now is that the true origins of the Cylons are not what we were led to believe. I think the real crossroads of the show is whether or not the quality of storytelling continues. So far, so good...I say cautiously.

  • March 27, 2007, 7:13 a.m. CST

    End of season 3 poll here...

    by oceanfrog Tinyurl:

  • March 27, 2007, 7:42 a.m. CST

    yes, they have to explain...

    by Amy Chasing

    why a Bob Dylan song? Why and how music is the indicator that they're Cylons. If they're Cylons, Jim, but not as we know them - could they be being manipulated by a third party? And who re-assembled Starbuck and her shiny ship? Is she Number 5? Is she... alive?

  • March 27, 2007, 7:52 a.m. CST

    About the story choices and "making it up as you go"

    by FluffyUnbound

    It is well known that Moore follows the fan sites, which are filled with endless speculation. Given the amount of misdirection the show employs, and the way it has arbitrarily shifted direction several times and abandoned developed plot themes, I think it's possible [and maybe it sounds unlikely, but hear me out] that Moore deliberately runs the show away from plot resolutions that become too heavily "speculated". The #1 aim here seems to be to give people what they aren't expecting, and that means if the fandom shows signs of knowing where you're going, you have to change where you're going. And I can completely understand that. But I think it's unfortunate, because I think the show would be about 5x as popular [and would still be just as good a show and just as good a drama] if they had just stuck with the themes and plotlines they developed in the first season. Sure, some of them would have developed in "predictable" ways, but so what? I think at this point it should be obvious that if people don't get the story choices they've decided are the "logical" ones, they bitch that the show has jumped the shark and stop watching.

  • March 27, 2007, 8 a.m. CST

    Too many people are looking at this the wrong way

    by chrth

    We don't know what the result of this Final Five reveal will be. Next season may be the greatest in the history of recorded television. You can't judge a shark jumping until after the show has ended. I can understand that some people don't like it, but to say that the show is doing something wrong is premature.

  • March 27, 2007, 8:03 a.m. CST

    oh, and that shot of Starbuck & Apollo's vipers...

    by Amy Chasing

    flying over the nebula backdrop, with the electric guitar blazing and stuff... was it just me or did that give the impression of one of those "classic" 70's airbrushed artworks? Was almost expecting a winged horse or something to come out from behind a cloud... maybe riding a Harley Davidson... on fire... into a lightning storm!

  • March 27, 2007, 8:13 a.m. CST

    chrth. can't judge a shark jumping until after the...

    by Amy Chasing

    show has ended? you sure? since when did sharks get FTL drives anyway? <P> but seriously, you could pick that, say, the X-Files had jumped the shark pretty much after the movie. Maybe by the start of the 6th season. Definitely by the start of the "super-solider" seasons. I didn't need to wait til the end to know it wasn't as good as before. But I kept watching because I like speculative fiction and there's fair little of it about given a decent budget (compared to other genres of TV). <P> Stargate SG1 - jumped shark by the start of the Or-i story. Knew it then, but kept watching cause the show was cute in an inoffensive way (not really meant nicely). <P> B5 jumped shark by season 5. They just shouldn't have gone there. <P> Some jumps you can just tell. Just because you wish it'd go back to the ways of previous glory doesn't mean it will, and it usually doesn't. Which is why I like BSG. I just can't pick a jump-the-shark moment in it. It keeps wriggling around dammnit!

  • March 27, 2007, 8:28 a.m. CST

    All sharks have FTL drives, it keeps them alive

    by chrth

    Again, there's no way of knowing for sure when a show has jumped. We may suspect a show has jumped (cf The Simpsons), but without a complete series, it's impossible to determine exactly when. If jumping had been around back then, people would've said Cheers had jumped the shark as soon as Diane left. It didn't.<p> Has BSG jumped the shark? Perhaps. But it's arguable that New Caprica was the jump, not the Final Five. It needs to be seen through before we can say for sure.

  • March 27, 2007, 8:55 a.m. CST


    by watashi-wa

    (First talkback! Hullo!) I'm partway worried that half of this show is going to turn out to be a Roslyn Kamala-influenced fever dream. I can just imagine that being the big ending - her waking up on Caprica and still being the Education Minister or some crap like that. I love this show, but this episode was half brilliant (the courtroom stuff) and half disappointing (Bob Dylan lyics? What the hell?)... However, Roslyn's wee headache before the power went out lends weight to the argument that the Final Five are energy types that can possess folk, maybe the Kamala makes her immune to them or something - they tried to get in there, but failed - which is why she reacted like she did. Of course, she now has in common with Baltar the fact that both have found themselves inside Cylon-style projections. The fact she shared hers with Six and Athena... hmmm...

  • March 27, 2007, 8:57 a.m. CST

    Ron Moore raped my fetal gestation period.

    by Behemoth

    I'm just sayin'...

  • March 27, 2007, 9:01 a.m. CST

    Well chrth, for some of us Cheers did jump then

    by Hervoyel

    It varies a lot and I think most of us realize that. We both start out liking a show and after three seasons I'm ready to climb off the horse but you might still be enjoying it. You might very well be even more interested in it for the exact same reason/change that caused me to lose my interest. It's just the way things like this work. I think a lot of producers hope to not lose too many people as they "evolve" their show and at the same time hope to pick up more fans along the way. Whedon lost me on Angel and then in the last year I got interested in it again. He lost me on Buffy too at one point but my wife rolled along with every change that show went through.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:27 a.m. CST

    I posted this in the other TB, but did it seem...

    by zer0cool2k2

    to anyone else that when Lee saw Kara in her Viper, her voice seemed clear, as if she were standing beside him (or in his head), whereas his voice was obviously going out electronically over his Viper's comm system? <p> And here's another "This has all happened before" theory. Maybe humans (earthlings?) created the toaster Cylons, who revolted, fled and evolved. In time these Cylons developed more "human" models who revolted, fled and evolved, eventually thinking of themselves as human. These new "humans" eventually created cybernetic servants they called Cylons.....

  • March 27, 2007, 9:29 a.m. CST

    JTS cubed...

    by chrisd

    Referring to the use of the phrase "Jumping the Shark" as having "Jumped the Shark" has itself "Jumped the Shark".

  • March 27, 2007, 9:30 a.m. CST

    They ought to "reimagine" Jaws...

    by chrisd

    and name the shark "Jump", so it would be Jump, the shark.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:35 a.m. CST


    by The UnGod

    No no, no , he's outside, looking in!

  • March 27, 2007, 9:35 a.m. CST

    The Dylan Song

    by The Alienist

    It was obviously not just a radio "pick up" as they obviously understood the language (I'm assuming the 12 colonies speak a different language than the Earth English of the original song lyrics.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:42 a.m. CST

    Enough JTS.

    by chrisd

    The only real problem about BG is not the Final Four or Five, the Dylan or Hendrix song, or the big pullout/pushin on the galaxy, although all of those can be annoying, but Ron Moore and company have twisted this stuff before and turn out some good stuff, so I will believe this will turn out good. The real problem is waiting until 2008! to see what happens next! That JTS.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:50 a.m. CST

    For those crying about BSG in HD...

    by Lost Skeleton

    each season, including this one, is repeated on Universal HD, which is a HD channel on Comcast, Direct TV and the Dish Network. BSG is amazing in HD and I do not know why the show isn't simulcast on Sci Fi and Universal at the same time. Also, I think I enjoyed Apollo's courtroom speech/testimony. If you listen to is an indictment on the Iraq war and how America has behaved since 9/11. I think the Cylon's have a good sect and a bad one. it seems that the final 4 of 5 want to help the humans rather than destroy them.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:55 a.m. CST

    Oh My FREAKIN' GOD!!!!

    by The Alienist

    Okay, go to: you will find a You Tube BSG video set to "All Along the Watchtower" featuring (prominantly) Tori, Anders, Tyrol and Tighe. You would assume it was a fan who saw the final show and thought they'd edit together a resistance video. BUT the vid was uploaded LAST NOVEMBER. Coincidence? Or was this entered by Ron Moore? Or Cylon time travel intervention?

  • March 27, 2007, 9:55 a.m. CST

    Kara has to be the 5th

    by BeatsMe

    It's the only way she's still alive. My theory is the final 5 are on earth and they're somehow able to resurrect without the use of a ship (or maybe Earth is one giant resurrection ship?). So when her ship blew, she woke up on Earth, where they have some nifty new Raiders.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:55 a.m. CST a brother who is able to identify his own...

    by Lost Skeleton

    Hot advisor to President is not black....she is southeast Asian...maybe Pakistain or India

  • March 27, 2007, 10:07 a.m. CST

    Manchurian Candidate, anyone?

    by Yogsoggoth

    They all remembered the song from their childhood. Obviously they were programmed to remember they were Cylons when they heard the song. Obviously the song was becoming clearer and moer audible as they approached the nebula. I can't see why so many people are bitching about the show jumping the shark. I heard a lot of the same speculation about the New Caprica story line, yet everyone seems to agree that the first three episodes of season three were some of the best that BSG has to offer. I'm not going to call anyone stupid for giving up on BSG (it's your choice) , but you can't argue that they are makign it up as they go. Everything we have seen up to now proves that they are working from a plan. We just don't know what the plan is. If you want to go see shit made up on the fly, I suggest you watch Lost.

  • March 27, 2007, 10:10 a.m. CST

    Final 4 (5)

    by mikegator

    I love the show but I admit to being slightly disappointed in who the final 3 of 5 are. I don't really care that Tory is a Cylon. She is an okay character, but not one I'm attached to. With Tigh and Tyrol being Cylons, that is what really bothers me. Obviously because of the aforementioned history with Adama (Tigh) and with Tyrol having a son now. They made such a big deal about Helo and Athena having a baby and another Cylon just goes and does it and it's no big deal. Kind of like any Cylon can just have babies now. As for Anders, I think that's kind of a shame. He is a good character and we have a little more invested in him. I suppose I can be swayed that it's okay that he is a Cylon. As for the fifth, I think most people are expecting it to by Roslyn. I am. But with the blood transfusion, perhaps that just gave her more insight and thus allowed her brain activity to operate/pick up on another frequency. If they wanted to throw us a curve ball on her, that's one way they could do it. Might be a bit lame, but at this point anything is possible. Still a great show!

  • March 27, 2007, 10:26 a.m. CST

    The possibly of Starbuck being imagined is nil..

    by Lemming

    ..because Gaita says about the two vipers requesting landing right at the end. Or did I imagine THAT?

  • March 27, 2007, 10:28 a.m. CST

    If "Jump the Shark" is now outdated, how about...

    by Behemoth

    ..."became a cylon" be the new phrase. Like, "Yeah, that new Andy Richter show really became a cylon when Richter took a dump onscreen" or "SNL really became a cylon when that new guy took over the Bush impression from Will Forte." P.S. Ron Moore raped my Golden Years.

  • March 27, 2007, 10:28 a.m. CST

    Also the fifth can't be Rosyln

    by Lemming

    The opera house isn't proof, because Hera and Baltar were there too. That, and the fact that she didn't hear any music. Whoever it is, wasn't on Galactica.

  • March 27, 2007, 10:31 a.m. CST

    "as soon as Diane left. It didn't."

    by Billyeveryteen

    Sorry Chrth, it did. Rebecca sucked. The writing took an nose dive, and Lilith was a shitty replacement.

  • March 27, 2007, 10:42 a.m. CST

    The Fifth, Final Cylon is...

    by Smokin Doc Cottle

    The Marlboro Man.

  • March 27, 2007, 10:53 a.m. CST

    Billyeveryteen: My point was (and still is)

    by chrth

    No one could've said at that moment that it jumped the shark then. Yes, some people didn't like Rebecca, but others did (along with the increased role for Frasier). It was only until after Rebecca showed up the next season that people could accurately judge the effect Diane's leaving had. Ditto the Final Five. We have to see what TPTB do with it before we can judge it.

  • March 27, 2007, 10:53 a.m. CST

    Kara, 5th speculation & a shark named Jump

    by 1derWoman

    first, the whole jumping the shark thing came from the episode in Happy Days when The Fonz literally jumped a shark. The show went downhill after that, and thus the term was coined. (Episode 91, 1977 - a long while before Diane left Cheers and Sam for the final time.) My random speculation for the 5th is Zarek. I like the irony of choosing the former Apollo. It actually makes me chuckle. He came so close to being VP. He could have gotten rid of Baltar and been "in charge" of the humans, with only Daddy Adama to deal with, really. He has a built in following from the prison ship, where he, presumably, still resides. (i'm guessing?) Oh, and I think that D'Anna apologized to Ol'One-Eye. Bonus random thought there for ya. Why? For pluckin' out that durned eye AND any involvement in the destruction of his slutwife. Starbuck jumped. That was her only option for survival at that point. The ship that Apollo saw, or thought he saw, explode was the toaster, if that. He may have been suffering his own 'pressure affects' and seeing things (or not seeing things as they really were). I believe Kara jumped and has been doing some jump-searching, trying to hook back up with them and in the interim, oopsidentally found basically a runway with the landing lights all alight. All lovely theories for you to chew on, except for Jumpy the Shark.

  • March 27, 2007, 11:01 a.m. CST

    Ron Moore is answering questions at

    by Boomers_Lips

    at the BSG forum, he has made a thread in which he answers questions brought up by fans. including: Q: Did Michael Hogan (Saul) know he was a cylon since the miniseries? How did you tell him and did his reaction change your interpretation of the character? A:He did not know, and frankly, neither did I. David Eick and I called each of the actors to tell them they were, in fact, Cylons and their reactions were all very similar in that everyone wanted to know what it meant in terms of changing their characters and what our plans were for the future. I told them about the hows and whys of their new-found heritage and a rough outline of where it was going in the future and in the end, they were all pretty enthusiast -- if scared -- about going in this direction. The same could be said for all of us when we first committed to this story, but by the time it was ready for air, we were all pretty gung-ho about what we'd done and felt eager to show the episode to the audience. Ron

  • March 27, 2007, 11:02 a.m. CST

    the link to the forum & Ron's thread

    by Boomers_Lips

  • March 27, 2007, 11:31 a.m. CST

    Yeah, Yogsoggoth,

    by Novaman5000

    Except Lost sets things up in season 1 that pay off 3 years later (such as the cable into the ocean, danielles kidnapped child), while RDM admits to deciding those 4 characters were cylons only THIS year. Lost makes up some things as it goes but huge reveals like cylons who couldn't possibly be cylons as we know it is something that needs to be handled pretty damn delicately if they want to minimize plot holes... I find it kind of surprising that you could deny the Lost writers' plan and yet claim that this show has one. That being said, I still love BSG, not knocking it at all. Though I do think it's best to have a plan, as long as the writers don't contradict themselves, I'm fine with them making it up as they go.

  • March 27, 2007, 11:38 a.m. CST


    by -guyinthebackrow

    How did the cable into the ocean pay off in season 3? I'm with on Danielle's missing kid, but what about the cable? For me, the cable hasn't paid off because if you did have a cable than even if the sky turned purple you would still be able to contact the mainland, but the others have said that they can't... so... please explain your theory.

  • March 27, 2007, 11:52 a.m. CST


    by Yogsoggoth

    is doing exactly what the Lost producers have been claiming that they do. They know the beginning, the middle, and the end of their series in broad strokes. They didn't plot every characters, every moment. The whole New Caprica plotline was an idea that they had decided that they wanted to do at some point but, as the series went along, they felt that the election was the perfect time to do the story. Now, they always intended to reveal the final five cylons, but hadn't decided who they would be until this year. Thematically they already know what they want to do, so I don't think it really mattered who they picked. If you had read the interviews with Ron Moore you wuold know that it isn't impossible that Saul is a Cylon. There are things we still don't know about the Cylons at all - what their plan is? and who / what their God is? - are just two. As far as Lost is concerned, there is nothing that has occured to convince me that they aren't making it up as they go along. The transition of the Others from spooky, mutant, zombie, jungle stalkers to Hillbilly Pirates to Scientists just reeks of throwing ideas against a wall to see which stick. The tone of the show has changed to radically to have been planned. But, that is my opinion of Lost, and I certainly will respect yours.

  • March 27, 2007, 1:08 p.m. CST

    Out of the Box Theory/No More Complaints

    by NetProphet

    from me. While I'm not on board with the four characters being Cylons, just to prove I'm not a "hater" I came up with a theory on the whys and hows of the fundamental differences. First off, I asked myself about the whole "boxing" of the five models explanation we had previously been given. Why would the other seven models make up such a story to tell humans? Then assuming this must be true, why can't the seven now remember what the other five even looked like? And at the time of such boxing, were these models fundamentally different from the others, or is that something that occurred after/as a result of the boxing. Now my premise starts off akin to the "all happened before" ideas out there, touching on the historical fact of the 12 Lords of Kobol. The 12 lords align perfectly with the 12 models. Maybe they were enlightened humans, or maybe they were the first humanoid sentient machines. Whatever the case, they used to exist and then disappeared into the ether. Possibly they transcended to a higher plane of being, becoming more spirit than physical being. In any event, humanity (with possible traces of Cylon "blood" in there) disperses, starts the colonies, forgets any past experimentation with artificial life,if any, and the Lords of Kobol become legend. Thousands of years later, the colonies start production of new robotic helpers, these machines revolt, and go off into space. There, experiments to create humanoid lifeforms commence, and they are successful 12 times, but 12 times only. While they can produce the artifice, the bodies, only those first 12 ever gain sentience, with all other efforts being lifeless lumps. This is because that sentience is actually somehow acquired by accidentally tapping into or trapping the essences of the missing Lords that were floating around out there. Maybe the Lords even were looking for some manner of rebirth to physical form (sort of "Wings of Desire" like). Re-born into new bodies, however, they are disoriented and suffer as well as from the fracture of their psyche by the production of numerous duplicates of each model. Now they can't even remember where they came from. Over time, though, with multiple downloads and more and more glimpses into that area between life and death, some start to become aware of their true nature. Five of them try to persuade the other seven to stop any plans the machines had for continuing war against humanity using these perfect new undercover agents. They are deemed crazy for this end up being boxed as a result. Now all duplicates of these five are terminated and the full collective conciousness of each is concentrated in one last unit that is literally sealed in a coffin. The only escape is to try and overcome their physical entrapment by psychic means. With their newly reintegrated minds, they project outward. Their goal is to save not only humanity, but also awaken their brothers. Maybe they are able to erase their images from the other humanoid Cylon minds to help achieve this goal. Could it be they must then find suitable vessels among the humans, perhaps carrying suitable genetic markers that the other seven Cylons might recognize if the retained the images of the final five? Thus, the psychic Cylon is born, fundamentally different yet still one of the twelve. Maybe I could live with such an explanation.

  • March 27, 2007, 1:28 p.m. CST

    too much psy for my scifi

    by 1derWoman

    While I enjoy your theory about the 12 Lords, I just can't seem to jump aboard the Psychic Cylon Train. I'd have to shoot the tv screen if it came to that, and I love my tv. Very interesting, though, NP. Ya kept me reading, but I think ya lost me at the final five escaping physical entrapment by psychic means. I'll have to mull this over some more.

  • March 27, 2007, 1:30 p.m. CST

    the 4 et all

    by 24hourbbq

    Yeah I think just because they're Cylons, doesn't mean they're tied down to becoming bad guys. After all, Boomer at first only suspected herself as a Cylon, and rebelled against it. For those of you who still have issue with whether or not Moore had or has A Plan[tm]: put yourself in his shoes for just a sec. Sure, it's a good idea to have a general idea of the overarching plotline so that you KNOW that you can wrap the series up successfully if you get a full run of it. But there's nothing saying this has to stay static. It's just _A_ way to do it. After working on it for several years, if you and your team come up with ways to tell the story that you think are gonna be more exciting, there's absolutely no reason why you couldn't change it. You just have to think it through and make sure that you'll still be able to maintain a throughline, and that you're not screwing things up, continuity-wise. You don't want to write yourself into a corner, but at the same time it would be boring for you, as a creative person, to stay frozen in the single plan for 5 or more years of something that you're pouring your energy into. Personally I think that what they did with the finale was awesome. You can either keep the same day-to-day episodes, or move the show FORWARD. And by doing that sometimes you have to expand the world of the story. You have to challenge the assumptions that these characters have been making about how their universe works. You have to UP the stakes. You have to knock them off balance and see what that does to them. Do you really want another season of them just continuing on their way to Earth, fighting cylons every now and then, fighting amongst themselves, figuring out ways of making their condensed society work? Standalone episode after standalone episode? That's fine if you like minutia, and it still has its place to flavor the story and the characters, but the more import that this fleet gains over the course of the series, the better. If they arrive at their destination the same people that they were when they left, that would be boring. So NetProphet, way to go with your idea! Sounds like a possibility to me, and one that would mesh with what we've seen so far. So complainers, instead of basing your assumptions of what the deal with the Fiinal 4 of 5 is gonna be, or what the deal with Starbuck is, or whatever, strictly on what has been shown to be possible to the characters as-of-yet, allow for the possibility of them not being collectively omniscient. It's gonna be a long wait 'til the next installment, but I'm gonna be there! Yeehaw!

  • March 27, 2007, 1:40 p.m. CST

    It's because they all frakked Cylons

    by performingmonkey

    Everyone's saying oh it's this theory it's that theory but I bet it's just because they frakked Cylons. We will discover that Tori frakked a Cylon and with Tigh they will say that it's because Ellen frakked the old-guy Cylon and then frakked Tigh and that's how he's now one of the 5. Then they'll give some bullshit explanation for why Baltar and Helo didn't become Cylons when they frakked Six and Boomer (you know why they call her 'Boomer', right...because she masturbates with boom microphone stands).

  • March 27, 2007, 1:49 p.m. CST

    Thanks 1derWoman

    by NetProphet

    That psychic part of the theory is where it breaks down for me as well. I don't think I'm really on board that train either. Glad to know somebody read it anyhow - it kind of looks like one of those long winded rants even I usually skip right past.

  • March 27, 2007, 1:59 p.m. CST


    by adrock303

    ...and it will all happen again." Those are the first words spoken in Disney's classic "Peter Pan". I just got the remastered dvd for my 3-year old, and I've never seen it until now. Maybe this has been brought up before in the TBs, but I've never read it. Anyway, seems like a pretty big coincidence. Sure, it might've just been part of their inspiration, but it's almost word for word in BSG. I wouldn't think anything of it except I keep coming up with interesting parallels. The show deals with death a lot. The unwillingness to die (Starbuck), the obession with what exists between life and death (D'Anna). Not to mention the fact that Cylons don't die. They've already found their Neverland. And do you remember where Neverland is? "Second star to the right, and straight on til morning." Sounds like the last part of their road map to me. Anything to this? Love the show, it has absolutely not jumped the shark, and I really hope it goes 5 seasons. In the history of great tv, I put it right up there with Sopranos.

  • March 27, 2007, 2:07 p.m. CST

    Well that made fuck all sense to me.....

    by Mickey The Idiot

    1. Do Cylons age? Coz Adama's known Tigh for a good few years. 2. If Cylon men are sterile (Tyrol) and Cylon women (Boomer), why the big fucking deal about the baby? 3. Jimi. Fucking Jimi. Hey, why not go the whole hog, crowbar in Noonien Soong and have him turn up with a Strat. Brent Spiner gotta eat, y'know... and lay some licks.

  • March 27, 2007, 2:09 p.m. CST

    I meant are NOT sterile and nor are cylon women

    by Mickey The Idiot

    Ah fuck it. See. Confused. Medusa-on-the-rag confused, I'm tellin' you. And the worst part is confused but not in the least bit curious.

  • March 27, 2007, 2:41 p.m. CST

    newbie houseguests & theories

    by 1derWoman

    I've got a friend that comes over to watch the Dresden Files before BSG. She's not into BSG (old or new), but has caught a good portion of this last season. During Apollo's dis of "the system" (excellent constructive meltdown on the stand, btw) we noted that no Skin stayed with any other Skin, but gravitated toward humans, cultivating serious domestic relations (ie marriages or something like it). Tyrol did frak around with Boomer, but they busted all apart, pun unintended, when she was outted as a Skin. Who knows about. Sam made a good point with his pissed-ness about being stuck on Caprica fighting Toasters & Skins just to stay alive. What was the point of that? WeLLHeLL - the other team didn't know either, not that it would have caused the a moments pause. The Skins boxed up D'Anna without blinking (the others being so narrowminded they can't see their own nosetips). They didn't even bother to pick her brain, literally or figuratively, when she, uh, rebooted. But I digress. Sorry. Ol' One-Eye was with Ellen, all too human. Tyrol with Callie. Sam all over Starbuck. Who knows who Tori is doin'.. Gaeta? haha :X I still don't trust him, but... who knows. The point of Cylons have SEEMED to be to create hyrids by any means. We have three known, that I can recall. Hera, baby Nick (isn't that Tyrol's kid's name?) and Starbuck's tube-daughter from her stolen eggs, the oldest of all known half-breeds. ...I wonder how Gaius will get Six out of the clink... Oh! and the Cylons claim to worship the one true God. Doesn't matter what god it is. To a polytheistic society, that's got to be pretty gobsmacking, just like it is to one-God-ers freak out on multi-godworshipers in reality. My brain is about burnt trying to think about this in a linear way. I need more information, or to re-view old info, to go anywhere else with this. ARg!

  • March 27, 2007, 2:46 p.m. CST

    Netprophet: You have a mistake in your analysis

    by chrth

    AFAIK, we've never been told that the Final Five were boxed. I believe that was something we came up with here (or got imported here from another board).

  • March 27, 2007, 2:50 p.m. CST

    newbie houseguests

    by secretcylon

    comes over to watch Dresden?

  • March 27, 2007, 3:04 p.m. CST


    by 1derWoman

    yeah, she's currently cable-less but wants to watch it. She, and admittedly, I find Bob-the-skull that's not quite the disembodied head he's meant to be quite funny. Hey, dude, if I can get her to watch BSG at all, get her hooked now before she restores her cable, when she does, that's one more house watching, another blip upward in the ratings. But we're constantly cracking up over Dresden, with his hockeystix and drumstix of protection. I'd have given up on the show after the first viewing if I hadn't said she could come watch it at my house 'til she gets her cable back. SciFi has piss me off so many times since it started I hardly watch it anymore except for BSG and the Doctor, oh, and to watch the demise of SG1. Bah! It's so a love/hate relationship for me.

  • March 27, 2007, 3:07 p.m. CST

    Tigh is Starbuck's dad.

    by Childe Roland

    Add that to my list of wild, unfounded predictions (right next to "Starbuck was the first hybrid."<p>It would totally explain why they hate each other so much, even if they don't really know the truth (although I'm betting Kara does by now).<Everything we thought we knew about the cylons is supposed to be changing. Everything the cylons thought they knew about everything (including the uniqueness of Hera) is changing, too.

  • March 27, 2007, 3:12 p.m. CST

    To the Contrary chrth

    by NetProphet

    The story about the other five models being "boxed" came from Ron Moore himself. It was skirted around by Caprica Six (not in head Six) when Baltar asked why he didn't see the other five models on the basestar. She was rather vague and obviously uncomfortable talking about it. It was in the episode "Torn".

  • March 27, 2007, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Childe Roland & NetProphet

    by chrth

    CR: Remember, Kara and Tigh were chummy on New Caprica. We never found out why, either. Humph.<p> NetProphet: I know Caprica skirted the issue, but I have never heard RDM say they were boxed. Do you remember when/where he said that?

  • March 27, 2007, 3:35 p.m. CST


    by PurityOfEssence

    "jumping the shark" - from now on this thoughtless act of storytelling suicide will be known as "Final Fiving" a show... Um, no it wont. If you walk over and tell someone "wow they Final Fived that shit" they'll probaly think you're talking about a damn gameshow... The end of this season is strange I'll give you that, but after everything that Moore said durring the podcast for Maelstrom, he has proven that if he is anything he is an accomplished liar.

  • March 27, 2007, 4 p.m. CST


    by secretcylon

    I hear you on the love hate relationship. If everyone who watches BSG could get 2 or 3 other people into the show, the ratings would skyrocket. My dad is now obsessed with the show and I've gotten a couple of people at my job into it. We've got a few months now to rope people in and get them caught up.

  • March 27, 2007, 4:13 p.m. CST

    The Alienist is right!

    by Zardoz

    Frak me! That is either a weird-ass coincidence, or someone's dropping some SERIOUS clues!

  • March 27, 2007, 4:17 p.m. CST


    by 24hourbbq

    Tori was with Anders at the beginning of part 2 of the finale... But as far as before, yeah we don't really know at this point.

  • March 27, 2007, 4:41 p.m. CST


    by 1derWoman

    We (I) saw them getting started, but get interrupted. Was that their 'second swing through the park, having re-dressed and were going thru the 'fun' of undressing a second time? Not that it matters, really. It's merely an observation seeing as Tyrol and Boomer were together before Tyrol latched on to Callie and had what I assume is a hybrid baby. Sam and Tori were both emotionally tattered with the things going on around them - Sam losing Starbuck not just to Lee, but presumably to death and Tori unable to sleep for days and days, by her own admission to Roslin. And let's not forget the music driving her/them up the wall (not quite as literally as Ol' One-Eye). Coitus Interuptus, black-out, then the thrill-killer realization of, well, to steal from Dune, "the Sleeper has awakened" - x4 (maybe 5). It's not a fool-proof theory or anything, but it could point in the direction of the missing Cylon, eventually. See, this would likely kill my own Zarek theory because, well, is he with anyone? Even if he was with someone, who's to say that someone isn't a SkinJob? I just think it's going to be someone in a key position, like Tigh (yes, I typed his actual name) and Tori, and even Th'Chief. It's certainly something to keep in mind, I think.

  • March 27, 2007, 5 p.m. CST

    Season 3 DVD should be out in August...

    by Pennsy

    Per Bear McCreary's website (the composer for the show); the scoop be here -> (thanks to one Robin Parrish for finding it first).

  • March 27, 2007, 5 p.m. CST

    The Alienist is RIGHT!

    by holyguacamole

    See the post above entitled 'Oh My Freakin GOD!'. That's unbelievable. No way that guy was that lucky to predict the final four and the song back in November. Either he is Ron Moore, plugged in to Moore, or Ron Moore got the idea for the finale by watching this dude's video. I don't know why people aren't talking about this. P.S. How do you guys get line spaces in your posts?

  • March 27, 2007, 5:11 p.m. CST

    No-one's mentioned, btw...

    by watashi-wa

    Keyzer Soze lives, and he's a lawyer in the fleet!

  • March 27, 2007, 5:19 p.m. CST

    RDMs biggest mistake...

    by _Maltheus_

    ...was admitting that he made everything up in the last minute. I know that shows don't have every detail worked out in advance. Killing off a character, that was originally suppose to live, is no big deal. Instead, RDM is retroactively changing characters cause he has no more good ideas for the show. I was partly enthusiastic about this direction, until his interview. Now I know, there's no point trying to re-watch old episodes for some clues, cause there were none to be had. More than jumping any sharks, this is analogous to having Greedo shoot first. It's changing something we once loved about the show into something inexplicable. I truly do rank it with the Alias zombie-sphere, Bobby Ewing in the shower (all a dream) and Fonzy jumping the shark. It makes it so that there's no point in trying to analyze what will come. For all I know, we'll find out Adama is a cross-dresser next season. Perhaps Roslin will end up a gansta rapper. This show has no coherence. If you like it, you like it. But get over the first year buzz this show had, it was all unfilled promise and I'm sure it's no longer a critical darling. Stargate (and Atlantis) at it's worst was better than BSG season 3.

  • March 27, 2007, 6:44 p.m. CST


    by Oberon

    "Stargate (and Atlantis) at it's worst was better than BSG season 3." <p> Let's not get carried away now.

  • March 27, 2007, 7 p.m. CST

    Yeah, the video is interesting ... HOWEVER

    by chrth

    I call coincidence. We're noticing the 4 because of the last ep. But they aren't the only 4 in the video. And it makes sense that Tigh and Tyrol are shown because they're the leaders of the resistance. It also makes sense to show Anders because they're establishing his location prior to going after Starbuck. And as far as I can tell, Tory's only there at the beginning.<p> As for the song, well, as a commenter noted, RDM originally had plans to use the song in season 1. So until I get any confirmation from TPTB, I'm sticking with coincidence.

  • March 27, 2007, 8:27 p.m. CST

    God! There Sure Are Some Stupid Talkback Trolls Here!

    by Real Deal

    The 3rd season for me has been better overall than #2! It was getting a little slow at the end but this finale brought me right back! I really get tired of people saying they don't like a show but continue to show up at the talkbacks! What's up with that? I think the show is becoming very intriguing. So if you don't like the show ( like it's always been said ) simply don't watch! Don't try to ruin it for others. You can't anyway! So give it up already!

  • March 27, 2007, 8:46 p.m. CST

    ...jump the shark...

    by jimmy rabbitte

    First, how did this phrase come to be? <p> If my memory serves... it started with a 1978 or 1979 three part episode of Happy Days. <p> The writers took a nice little show about a bunch of '50's kids hanging around at Arnold's; and transported *the entire cast* to Hollywood for three weeks. Now, I went on many vacations when I was growing up; but I *never* brought along *every single person from home that I know*. Getting away from all of that is what a vacation is all about... <p> Anyway... they *all* go to California, Richie auditions to be "the next big thing in movies", Malph and Potsie annoy everybody (including the audience), and Fonzie gets in a big beef with the local icon of cool who just happens to be a pro water skier... can you see where this is going... of course you can... Fonzie and The California Kid make a bet... The Cal Kid chickens out and Fonzie wins the bet by... you guessed it... making a water ski jump over a caged shark. <p> That's what constitutes "jumping the shark".<p> Because, what does Happy Days really have to do with jumping over sharks while wearing water skies? It stretches the shows parameters beyond all reasonable expectancy. <p> Since a sci-fi show like BSG is supposed to stretch boundaries and imagination; perhaps the attempts to keep us guessing (or whatever they're attempting) don't quite qualify as jumping the shark, per se... <p> However R.M. needs to be a little more adept at moving the pieces around the board; because it starting to feel as though he's lost his way with the story direction. <p> ...if he attempted to jump a shark from his present position he's likely to wind up as bait... IMHO

  • March 27, 2007, 8:51 p.m. CST

    Does anyone know....

    by clockpolitiks

    Where I can find the cover version of the dylan song they played in this episode? I like it a lot.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:07 p.m. CST

    I like the show but...

    by I Hope You Die

    I don't think any of the "they have a plan" secret destiny stuff was necessary at all. The premise - the last remnants of the colonies search for Earth while being pursued by Cylons - is strong enough to carry the show without hinting at some overarching super-secret storyline. Shows that claim to be revealing an overarching mystery rarely work and it was completely unnecessary for this show. Still, that's what we got, and you just have to accept that they're going to make some of it up as they go along.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:08 p.m. CST

    You know if They Made The Prisoner Today

    by Real Deal

    ( One of the best show ever in my opinion )Everyone would be saying about the last episode that it " Jumped The Shark "! The last episode of this show was really different and really one of it's best! It took everything full circle and really defined the show. But because it was different people now days would be crying foul! At the end of BSG I'm sure that everything will come together and the whinners will look ultra stupid. If they pull an " Xfiles " I'll be right there with you guys complaining. But we're not at the end yet and unlike some other shows currently running ( no names please ) things are moving forward and being gradually revealed to us. People will look back on this show and go " I really wish they made shows like that still! "

  • March 27, 2007, 9:12 p.m. CST

    The YouTube video...

    by I Hope You Die

    Pretty sure the presence of "All Along the Watchtower" is merely an allusion to EVERY VIETNAM MOVIE EVER MADE. That song is pretty standard for any parody of a Vietnam war movie or anyone who wants to evoke Vietnam.

  • March 27, 2007, 9:42 p.m. CST

    That youtube is more than coincidence

    by pax256

    Only the 4 regular cast are featured... other players here are occasional at best in this video. I say Ron Moore or someone close to him did this for internet posterity LOL...

  • March 27, 2007, 9:45 p.m. CST

    Watchtower cover

    by DrJubal

    I read somewhere that the Dylan cover will be on the forthcoming Season 3 soundtrack CD.

  • March 27, 2007, 10:11 p.m. CST

    Featured relatively prominently I mean...

    by pax256

    Dont wanna forget Eddie there lol...

  • March 27, 2007, 10:21 p.m. CST

    Galactica DVDs

    by Vadakin

    I was thinking of getting the boxsets of the series and I was wondering if anyone could tell me whether the mini-series is in the season 1 set or whether I have to get it seperately

  • March 27, 2007, 10:33 p.m. CST


    by jimmy rabbitte

    The season 1 set includes the mini-series... although they did release it separately as well...

  • March 27, 2007, 11:25 p.m. CST

    guy in back row

    by slkboxrman

    the cable in the ocean wasnt a way to contact the mainland or contact civilization.....the russian guy mentioned that the cables go into the ocean to the buoys for the submarine....he said once the anomoly happened they dont work and all other communication methods either

  • March 27, 2007, 11:29 p.m. CST

    about those 4

    by slkboxrman

    "fundamentally different" can mean anything could mean theyre not cylons at all....perhaps just pawns...i dont think its a coincidence that 3 of the 4 are high up in the galactica heirarchy,,colonel tigh is 2nd in command to adama....tory is the presidents right hand woman....tyrol is in charge of the flight for anders, im not sure what part he plays other than he was head of the resistance on old caprica...maybe some good guys are influencing them...i doubt all hearing a song indicates some secret cylon activation code...

  • March 27, 2007, 11:31 p.m. CST


    by slkboxrman

    sorry, i meant to say i think its highly coincidental that they all are somewhat high in the pecking order of galactica

  • March 28, 2007, 3:12 a.m. CST

    they all ended up in that one room-

    by samsquanch

    that suggests some kind of "programming", more thatn the song. If it was just the sone, it could be weird enemy psy-ops, but the fact that they were all 'led' to that room, at the same time, means that there was somethig else afoot. imho

  • March 28, 2007, 6:08 a.m. CST


    by zerotau

    Come on, we all know it. This season was not as good as 1 and 2. It had its great moments like when Galactica jumped into the atmosphere of New Caprica, released the fighters and jumped right out again. That was, for me, the single coolest moment in the series overall (I think I came a little). But something has been missing. Where are the “No, more Mr. Nice Gaius”, and that tension in the Pegasus episodes when Starbuck was ordered to shoot Admiral Cain. I’ve been struggling a little bit this season. The virus (?), the love triangle (?) (Although I really enjoyed the boxing episode, and why didn’t they have an octagonal ring?), and I don’t mind so called “fillers” but this season for some reason I did, and please, please don’t let James Olmos direct another episode. Despite all this, I must say the final episode restored a little bit of my faith in the writers. There was a playfulness we haven’t seen for much too long. I laughed out loud when the doctor exclaimed “Are you two freaking out at the same time?” and the song, that was pretty cool too. I will definitely not abandon this show, which IS the best out there. I’m truly looking forward to season 4, but I must confess, somewhere in my mind I’m hoping it’s the last one and that they go out with a bang. See you in January!!

  • March 28, 2007, 8:31 a.m. CST


    by -guyinthebackrow

    Ahh. That's right. Thank you.

  • March 28, 2007, 8:43 a.m. CST

    Ron Moore...I beseech you!

    by blackbottomlip

    In a recent post in your Q+A mentioned that you see people split over BSG...and that those who dislike the show are people who cannot live with the tensions and surprises/plot twists/lack of character security...I think there is danger here of believing your own press on that. So many of us have loved your show and felt like the writing was among the strongest there was in a long while- primarily due to the complexity and depth of the character development...What I think people here are responding to is the emphasis on plot twists and gimmicks over character development and depth. I don't think it's about us not being able to handle who is or isn't a cylon, whether Starbuck is dead or not. It IS your can do what you want to with it...but please consider that a myriad of voices here are saying something isn't working- and they all point to the writing... In Star Trek TNG so many loved Picard because of his almost literary kind of depth...he was a complex, well written character- no one ultimately cares that Jordi changed the polarity of the deflector dish to travel back in time/re-ignite the sun/etc etc (that never happened- but you get the point- plot twist over character dev)But everyone remembers the qualities of the Picard character... thanks for all your hard work on this show and for being willing to take some risks! So many of us really want to see this show go out with a bang not a whimper

  • March 28, 2007, 9:12 a.m. CST

    Son of a bitch!

    by scrumdiddly

    Why do I read these things???

  • March 28, 2007, 9:13 a.m. CST


    by 1derWoman

    i don't believe the shows dubbed as 'filler episodes' are really 100% fillers. I haven't watched or purchased any on DVD to go back and check this out, but plan to do so in the near future. Just a feeling more than any theory. Maybe it's because I have never been one to understand why on Earth (or Kobol, or Caprica, etc), when you have a story more or less planned out, somewhere to really go, would you *waste* an episode (and tons of production $'s)without dropping at least something of real value in there to further the movement of storyline to fruition.

  • March 28, 2007, 9:27 a.m. CST

    My Bad chrth

    by NetProphet

    Despite the fact that the idea the final five were boxed is rampant all over the internet, I looked everywhere and couldn't find the comment I remembered about the boxing stuff. In fact, I came across this from the Rapture podcast: (talking about D'Anna) "...the fact that she glimpsed the final five, she had done the for— she had bitten from— she had eaten from the tree of forbidden knowledge, she had gone to a place that they were— none of them were supposed to do, they were not supposed to think about the final five, they weren't supposed to talk about them, and she started getting closer and closer, and Baltar encouraging her all the way, and ultimately she succeeds, [41:47]but then her entire model is eliminated in the first time that any of the Cylons had been eliminated as a model. Terry: Oh, it's the first time? RDM: Yeah. 'Cause there's always— there's— there have been twelve— Terry: Right. RDM: —and we've seen seven— Terry: So now there's eleven. RDM: —and now there is eleven. In a sense, part of that comes from the fact that the Cylons are a very young civilization. At the beginning of the series, they were very much in lockstep with one another, a very homogeneous group. Even though there were twelve models, they had a very tight, cohesive point of view. But over the course of time this young civilization and society has grown divisive and- has seen division spring from within, and then problems happen, and then finally the— one model goes too far and has to be eliminated by the others, and I think that's an interesting commentary on the Cylons and on humanity." This is somewhat confusing. How can seven out of a "tight and cohesive" group of 12 be forbidden to know anything about the other five? And now the five appear to be out there doing their own thing, yet D'Anna's searching for knowledge of them is so serious a transgression her entire line gets shut down. Could be that they are such super deep cover agents that they don't want the other Cylons to accidentally tip off the humans, and that they've intentionally repressed their memory of them. In any event, I made a wrong assumption. Oh well, it was part of a theory I wasn't crazy about to begin with.

  • March 28, 2007, 9:27 a.m. CST


    by xmanowarx

    all of this has happened before and will happen again. meaning that the humans at some point in the past created a robotic race that turned on them and forced them to venture forth to the stars and settle on new planets. there have been hybrid children in the past, and someone (namely pythia) was around to write it all down. i think these 4 newly revealed cylons may be descendents of the last batch of hybrids, making them partly cylon but fundamentally different. and who has seen both sides of the conflict and has been pumping out a manifesto on the whole situation and who is now being regarded as some kind of prophet? baltar. is he the new pythia?

  • March 28, 2007, 10:09 a.m. CST

    Why are there 'low ratings'?

    by Mutant Leader

    Because a lot of us are having B5/PTEN/Season 5 flashbacks. It's as simple as that. Guys. . .there ARE no 'low ratings'. It's a cable show; the situation is well in hand. If RDM says it's not a problem, why do some of us insist that it is? This AINT B5, okay? Relax! :)

  • March 28, 2007, 11:12 a.m. CST

    I was wondering about being the fifth too.

    by CrichtonAstronut

    The dream seems pretty convincing on that point, if not quite a lock it at least introduces the idea. And while it's true that Baltar and Hera were in the dream it is not certain that they were HAVING the dream along with Athena, CapricaSix and Laura Roslin. CapricaSix and Athena are known Cylons, so both of them sharing a dream and Roslin dreaming it too is pretty interesting. Also Rolsin powers of vision and prophesy seem very similar to Leoben Conroy's.

  • March 28, 2007, 11:13 a.m. CST

    wondering about Roslin being the fifth too.

    by CrichtonAstronut

    sorry. Typoed the title.

  • March 28, 2007, 11:24 a.m. CST

    No, I don't think Roslin is a Cylon ...

    by holyguacamole

    ...rather, her dreams come from the connection she has with Hera (and Athena) - the blood infused in the prez to cure her cancer. Moore is establishing (on and off the show) that the final five are 'fundamentally different' than the other cylons. Moore's holding the 5th in his back pocket to be revealed later (once he decides who it is.)

  • March 28, 2007, 11:49 a.m. CST

    I forget..

    by Billyeveryteen

    Besides Exodus, do any Vipers, this season, fire a single fraking shot?

  • March 28, 2007, 11:58 a.m. CST

    Woohoo! Katee Sackhoff is the Evil Bionic Woman!

    by Abin Sur

    That may be old news, but I think it's awesome! Watching her kick ass with robot strength will be sweet! I guess that was the pilot she said she was filming...

  • March 28, 2007, 12:16 p.m. CST

    Rember that this is a "re-envisioning"

    by Breotan

    While things are different, a lot of major items from the old series have been brought forward. If you'll remember there was a story arc that involved "angels" and "demons" using Starbuck and Apollo and the Cylons as tools to do their work. Remember Apollo and Starbuck in their dress whites? I expect that the new series is now bringing this element into the storyline and we'll see more of it in Season 4. In any event, it's probably useless to speculate on what's up with the Final Five right now given all the misdirection involved. Personally, I would be rather irritated if Tyrol et al, were sleepers because that would be a major retcon and would likely diminish the story to date.

  • March 28, 2007, 12:22 p.m. CST


    by Lemming

    Plenty of viper firing in Maelstrom, and some lovely viper shots as well tbh. It's just a shame she's shooting at frak all.

  • March 28, 2007, 1:20 p.m. CST

    If I may interject here...

    by Dr Dischord

    This episode was an excellent example of why I fucking hate record companies. If you were RM, would you rather use the original Dylan or Hendrix cover of Watchtower for your show, or some bullshit emo-metal version with faux-bhangra in the background? Luckily, you have to pay through the nose to use famous music, esp. if you're using it in a less than blockbuster show or movie. Its why no Wes Anderson movie soundtracks contain the Rolling Stones songs that appear in the movies. Its why Daria will have to be re-edited, snipping out the 3 second altrock clips, in order to see the light of DVD. Its why, in one episode of TNG, Chief O'Brien and his old war buddy are singing an obscure folk song from the 1800s rather than Louie Louie, as the writers originally intended. Record companies are worse than HMOs and the Third Reich combined.

  • March 28, 2007, 2:10 p.m. CST

    If there is a cylcon plan...

    by _Maltheus_

    <p>...then judging by RDMs interview, the writers don't even know it yet. They get paid tons of money to simply do their homework the night before. A story like this deserves better planning.</p> <p>As for the best moment of the series, it was not the ftl-atmo jump (that did have me on my feet), it was Tigh poisoning his wife (when I slam this season, I mean all the post-caprica stuff).

  • March 28, 2007, 2:53 p.m. CST


    by Dr Dischord

    Assuming the prequel doesn't happen, how is that going to influence the storylines on BSG? Is there info that was only going to be revealed on Caprica that is crucial to understanding BSG? My theory is that the person/corp./group that developed toaster Cylons later went on to create a genetic breed of CYlons, cloned humans that were planned, ie destined, down to every A,T,C, & G. The plans they used for the cloning were based on records of similar or identical experiments by the original Humans. And even though #5 is probably Starbuck, it would be awesome if it was a reincarnated Cain.

  • March 28, 2007, 4:01 p.m. CST

    Rock on Maltheus/The Right to Criticize

    by NetProphet

    It kills me that every time someone voices any "negative" opinion on the Talkback they get labeled a hater. I for one, think this forum exists to air both positive and negative commentary. If someone wants to post a personal reflection on the show, even if it is their feeling that the proverbial shark has been jumped, why not. Someone who disagrees always has the opportunity to counter with their opinion backed up with some well reasoned and persuasive argument. Much better than "just shut up you hater/whiner, etc." Personally, I thought the last several episodes were very weak, and have alraedy set forth my points on why the revelation of the four Cylons doesn't work for me. It doesn't mean I won't keep watching with the hopes it pays off in the end. But by no means am I slavishly going to think every choice from here on in is a gem. Appreciation is subjective - and by no means is BSG, or any other show for that matter, so objectively perfect that it can't be criticized. Ewoks anyone? Now I'll get off my pedestal.

  • March 28, 2007, 4:24 p.m. CST

    OMG how funny

    by 1derWoman


  • March 28, 2007, 5:15 p.m. CST

    show is slipping...

    by datachasm

    wtf is the deal with the Cylons? Six, et all, now Tyrol, Tigh, and the other 2 i do not even know their characters names they are so irrelevant to the shows storyline... how can they be Robots or Cyborgs at all? wouldnt a simple XRAY show some kind of computer brain and wiring in the nervous system at least? Tigh... if he was in several wars for the Colonies or whatever, he was never wounded once and required surgery? the shows is just becoming unbelievably stupid, and yet so many people want to believe it will make sense they ignore all the signs. i really dont wanna hear any writing tips from Moore, i think his writing and plot sucks.

  • March 28, 2007, 9:01 p.m. CST

    Thanks NetProphet

    by _Maltheus_

    <p>I don't even know what it means to be a "hater" anymore when all the "lovers" seem so much more hate filled. I'm not angry at people who thought this was a great season. I truly wish I felt that way. I just want a show with a better sense of continuity so that I can join in the speculation of what's to come. As it stands now, the present is no guide to the future. There is no overarching story.</p> <p>If I were the producer of this show, I would at the very least know who all the cylons are up front so that I could develop their story in such a way that the audience would be going ah-haaa in the end, not WTF? I would drop only the most subtle hints that would make everyone want to rewatch the series and see it from that different angle. RDM says this ep will make us wonder what it is to be a cylon. My sentiments exactly. It simply has no meaning anymore. Cylons aside, even the courtroom stuff was bordering on ludicrous. This show use to have this heavy, dramatic feel. Now I can't stop laughing at the dialog.</p> <p>As a suggestion, if you don't want to hear criticism about your show, perhaps you shouldn't be perusing something called a "talkback." Criticism is kind of the point.</p>

  • March 28, 2007, 11:16 p.m. CST

    On the Nose Maltheus/STD Theory

    by NetProphet

    It is that "ah-haaa" moment that I feel I've been cheated out of too. With the way these four were selected, it makes you wonder if they have even figured out the fifth one yet. As it is, they could pick anyone, no matter how off the wall, and it can be explained because of the "fundamental difference." And since I blew my own pledge to not complain anymore, I'll torture myself (and others) by posting a new theory about the fundamental difference. The new Cylons are a viral "worm" program (pun intended!) that is passed from host to host via sexual intercourse. Tyrol got infected through Boomer. Ellen got the Cy-clap from Cavil and passed it on to Saul. Doral (I think his one incarnation was a press/publicity guy) met and slept with Tori after some governmental press conference. And we all know what a horndog Anders is. I'd be surprised if he hadn't picked up every STD in the galaxy along the way. That leaves the fifth as ... Admiral Cain, who had her way with the captive Gina/6 model! That's it, shoot me now.

  • March 29, 2007, 2:51 a.m. CST

    Cylon = Cybernetic Colonial?

    by kinanswer

    Just a thought :-/

  • March 29, 2007, 3:35 a.m. CST

    The Great Bear Speaks

    by kinanswer

    Check out Bear McCreary blog on the use of the track "All Along The Watchtower". It would seem to suggest that the BSG crew are maybe not Cylons. Another earth probe? "I learned that the idea was not that Bob Dylan necessarily exists in the characters' universe, but that an artist on one of the colonies may have recorded a song with the exact same melody and lyrics. Perhaps this unknown performer and Dylan pulled inspiration from a common, ethereal source."

  • March 29, 2007, 8:19 a.m. CST


    by Roboteer

    The BIG problem I have with Moore is his lack of any moral compass. He doesn't seem to realize the fine line between rationalizing the use of say, suicide bombers, and becoming an apologist for them. He likes to turn things on their head..... what if instead of suicide bombers, the story had us take a second, positive look, at Nazi death camps? How could a writer possibly do that? Well, dishonestly as Moore does. Death camps become ethnic summer camps with crafts, making lamp shades and such. With suicide bombers, you don't have them killing innocent women and children as they mostly do. And you have them in desperate survival mode against a genocidal oppressor instead of middleclass comfort, brainwashed by a rabid religion. Soooo, maybe Hitler wasn't so bad after all, at least in the beginning. Some of Moore's moral equivalencies should be condemned as any homage to the Nazis would be. They are also just stupid. Adama's crying because he 'started the War' by sending an unarmed scout ship into Cylon space? Give me a break! Are critics praising great writing here, or just politically correct Leftist thesis they agree with? It's obvious where it's all going too, WE are the Cylons. That's been the point all along. That there's no difference between us and them. That purposefully exterminating billions of sentient beings is really just human nature. The first Cylon to arrive on Earth will have a funny mustache, bad haircut, and named Adolph. The show's second POV being one of self loathing, betrayal, collective guilt, and functional psychosis. In other words, Liberalism. And why viewership, continues to fall. People get tired of the continuous irrational drumbeat of negativity and defeatism. I'm sure he was told by SciFi to juice up the series, move towards some sort of conclusion, or it's canceled. I can see Moore, petulantly, making half the cast Cylons. THERE! You wanted change... Of course like Starbuck's first much heralded premature death, there is no commitment as yet that these are REALLY Cylons. Don't be surprised when they're not. Why would anyone over the age of ten be hanging on edge for the next episode of something that has clearly become so arbitrary, silly, and indifferent to its audience? My other carpe Moore is the choice of music. He could have at least made it Jimi's cover. Though, Cylons can listen to Jimi, but they can't hear Jimi. Then maybe something more upbeat... by the Supremes, yeah, that's the ticket. A little Motown couldn't hurt the preachy, depressing morass, this once promising series has devolved into.

  • March 29, 2007, 12:11 p.m. CST

    Videos of Ronald Moore interviews

    by Schierke

  • March 29, 2007, 1:28 p.m. CST

    Maltheus And A Critic Ha!

    by Real Deal

    May I quote you? " For all I know, we'll find out Adama is a cross-dresser next season. Perhaps Roslin will end up a gansta rapper. This show has no coherence. If you like it, you like it. But get over the first year buzz this show had, it was all unfilled promise and I'm sure it's no longer a critical darling. Stargate (and Atlantis) at it's worst was better than BSG season 3. " This is just trying to be intellectualy cute. And not quite getting there.

  • March 29, 2007, 7:47 p.m. CST

    Earth is the Cylon Homeworld

    by NHRonin

    Circa the year 3000; RDM's final "Ah ha!" moment in the series.

  • March 29, 2007, 8:42 p.m. CST

    Nah. They will end up on Earth alright.

    by mrfan

    Only it will be filled with stinking apes. Stinking talking apes.

  • March 30, 2007, 11:02 a.m. CST

    Distance to Earth revealed

    by RobRed1

    Bob Dylans "Along Along the Watchtower" was released in 1968. Radio broadcasts travel at the speed of light through the vacuum of space. Now, look at the very last scene of the episode where they zoom out on Galactica and then zoom in on earth. Figure out the approximate distance and you get the distance to earth and a time frame based on the first broadcast of Dylan's song. -------------------------------- I think when they get to earth, they will find the "13th Colony" is really the original source of humanity. There was an original man vs. machine conflict that led to the 12 tribes fleeing to resettle elsewhere. Meanwhile, in the two thousand years since, humans and their machines on earth found accord and live in harmony now. Earth technology is far advanced because of the cooperation of man and machine. Earth will enforce peace on both the human fleet and their cylon pursuers.

  • March 30, 2007, 12:56 p.m. CST

    It's not Dylan's AATW

    by NHRonin

    Which blows the distance to Earth theory out of the water.

  • March 31, 2007, 4:06 p.m. CST

    I swear, subtext is WASTED on some of you guys.

    by ZeroCorpse

    Those of you who "hate" the show after the season ender are really very shallow, aren't you? All you want is badass laser fights. You're the same people who wanted the Star Wars prequels to be all badass Sith fights, and whined about the stuff you didn't get (though you THINK you got it, you didn't get it). It's SUBTEXT, people. It's foreshadowing. It's storytelling 101, and you suck at comprehending it. You need to go back to watching B&B's Star Trek, because they're real big on just spoon-feeding you the plot points and giving you badass fights and T&A moments.