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Roger Thornhill reports in on how KING AND I came about
For those that look at the trailer and wonder.... Why?... Well here's Rog with the skinny...
Roger Thornhill reporting with some KING AND I dirt and blame to spread
around...
True blame for the debacle known as THE KING AND I that will be foisted
upon an unsuspecting American audience rest not with Warner Bros but
rather with the Rogers and Hammerstein estate executers. Here's the
scoop: About three years ago an animation director friend of mine
wanted passionately to do the KING AND I (he'd been developing is for
several years). He had tons of INCREDIBLE artwork that he had been
creating along with his own adapted script, totally faithful to R&H's
original musical. Having seen the artwork, it was incredible and would
have put Disney to shame. So, two years ago he flew out to NYC to meet
with the R&H people and pitch his idea. They loved it and were excited
that someone of his background wanted to do this. My friend knew Rankin
and Bass had the rights to the R&H catalog, but nobody could ink a frame
without the estates approval. At that time there was no other movement
on the KING AND I front. Low and behold, about 3 or 4 months later deep
pocketed Warner Bros. and Morgan Creek productions announce they
acquired the rights to an animated KING AND I. Adding further insult to
injury, they were going to subcontract the project to RICH ANIMATION,
the guilty party foisting all those horrible Saturday moring quality
feature releases like Swan Princess and its sequel.
Essentially the R&H people sold their soul for the big dollar payoff and
Morgan Creek and WB figured they could do a low budget feature and make
a killing from name recognition. They know well and good what they
could have had, albeit from an independent production, but they opted
for the big dollars instead.
So, the blame should go as follows:
First to the Rogers and Hammerstein estate for selling out, when they
had a potential alternative.
Second, to Warner Bros/Morgan Creek for opting to subcontract to Rich
Animation instead of using the Warner Bros Animation facility and crew
Third to Rich Animation for doing such an incredibly poor job. I
haven't seen the whole film but I did see a lot of production artwork
and the trailer several times. While the production my friend would
have undertaken would have half the budget( RICH had about 20 Million I
understand) , the quality of one's art direction (character design and
BG design) need not be affected by the budget. Paper and pencils don't
change with the budget.
Lastly back to Warner Bros. for going ahead and releasing the film
theatrically instead of doing the honorable thing and burying it.
R-O-T
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He's a cool guy who doesn't have that great of an animation crew. He is a brilliant visionary who does the best job he can...before you complain let me see your drawing ability and directing ability. Rich is a man and Kubrick is a little man. Nuff said...."Oh let my pride fall down, I'm a little man..."
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Kubrick is one of my least favorite of popular directors but he did push the envelope. 2001 was a bit lame in my opinion. As for the Supertones reference, do they have a new video coming out?
Anyhow, The Swan Princess was a good animated movie, but I haven't seen its sequels. What happened to The Thief of Always? I'm sure its story is as interesting as that of The King and I. -
(Continuing form the other King and I board.) Walter, I'm afraid you've lost me. I still don't understand how you can claim POE is ripped off of Disney, or that Dreamworks is bad for calling themselves "the adult animation studio". Lord knows Disney can't lay claim to that title. Despite the promise of Tarzan, from what I've seen it is still very much a kid's movie, one that owes a lot to "The Lion King". At one point, li'l Tarzan says, "I'm gonna be the best ape EVER!" Does that sound to you like a studio interested in making adult cartoons? Katzenberg has released two movies that are far more mature in sensibility than anything Disney's done since he left. Why shouldn't he call himself the adult animation studio? Furthermore, I STILL don't see how you can label POE a Disney ripoff while praising Anastasia. Isn't 'Ana' a LOT more of a soulless Disney clone than POE? And comparing Ash to Mononoke, and Shrek to Monsters Inc...VERY tenuous. Shrek is a fairy tale giant, Monsters is about classic movie monsters (I think) and furthermore, Shrek was in production a LONG time ago. As for Ash/Mononoke...Disney re-releases (not makes but rereleases) an animated movie in the anime style, and therefore Ash is a ripoff because it has the director of Akira on board? All Japanese animated movies have had the same style for a long time, but if two western studios try to do something in the same style, THAT'S stealing? Come on. Dreamworks has some political motives, and they have done some spurious things behind the scenes. But all things considered, they're a remarkably ethical studio...especially when compared to Disney. But even if Dreamworks was run by, say, the current management of WB, you still can't let it blind you to the quality of the work they're turning out. Saying "I liked Mulan better than POE because I hate Katzenberg" is unfair and foolish. If you're going to judge a movie, judge it on its own merits. If you're listening to one of Mozart's symphonies, you don't care that the man who wrote them was an alchoholic wife-beater, do you? ****By the way, POE has grossed WAY more than Rugrats, and almost as much as ABL, if you factor in the worldwide box office for all movies. A flop it is definately not.
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[My English prof always taught me to use a subject that'll get your audience's attention; bad spelling works to, but in a bad way] Mind you, POE was not a kids movie either. In comparison to Disney works, Katzenberg's projects do have a "more" mature feel about them. But the key word here is not 'mature', it's 'more'. We must keep in mind what we're comparing it to. Compare POE with standard animated Disney fare and yes, you will see a distinct difference. Put it up against a good standard "mature" adult movie (read: NOT PORN FLICK) like.. say.. A Simple Plan. It's still way down on the level of kid's stuff. POE was good.. I love it, enjoy the soundtrack and will pick it up on LD/DVD/whateverD, but after seeing it and letting it settle for a while, I don't kid myself for a second thinking that it can be passed off as a film who's target audience is 100% adult. --- AJC
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Why in the world would anyone want to rip off Disney? Their animated films(or atleast the worst of them like Pocahontas and Hunchback) have bland animation, groin jokes, unrealistic-looking women, predictable storylines, flatulence jokes, sappiness galore with no dark stuff, left-wing extremist trashing of history, awful songs, and nothing original. Now, Hercules had some bright, good animation but it was nothing that Don Bluth and Dreamworks didn't top in the next 18 months. AND the comedy in Hercules wasn't the least bit funny.
All I know is that if you work with another studio, you can put out animated flicks with dark elements(Batman: Mask of The Phantasm), controversial dialogue(Antz), and PG-rated, tie-in-free(Prince of Egypt) animated movies. All the adult-aimed envelope-pushing goes on at other studios than Disney AND the best kid-aimed animated movies come from other studios, too.
Pixar seems to be Disney's greatest asset, but when are they going to release another stop-motion animated movie?
I, for one, am looking forward to Monkey Bone, Planet Ice, and Iron Giant. -
despite everything I have heard. This industry sickens me. What are these clowns thinking when they release trash like "King and I" into theaters (by the way it isnt the FIRST time a studio has hacked a great project)when all these damn near cool ass animation sequels like "Prince of Egypt II" and "Antz 2" go direct to video. At least DISNEY (whom I hate for their legal bloodthirsty business dealings) has the sence to break the current trend of releasing their Video sequels to video with "TOY STORY 2" (it will most likly be the last sequel released theatrically). oh yeah, if you think all anime has the same style, go watch "Ninja Scroll" then pop over to "Ghost in the Shell" then watch "Kikos delivery service" and any of the "Project AKO: battle" movies. Japanese anime style (like the American "Superhero" style) differs from artist to artist.
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New video should be out next week for Chase the Sun. Does anyone know where Coming Attractions went?
http://www.angelfire.com/az/ScarabNET/miframes.html -
I hope they spell "Rodgers" correctly on the film. Saw the trailer, gave the king a talking pet panther!!!!????? Last I read a couple of weeks ago, there were some legal problems, something that the film wouldn't be delivered to WB until additional money was paid, or something like that. This film called out for elegant animation and wide-screen.
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How can people dislike Disney when they were the birth inventor of feature length animated movies. Sure, they use pretty rough strategies to block out competition, but for God Sakes it's just to protect their business and hold their reputation. You would hate it to if other studios start stealing the market away from you for no darn reason. Now think about it, why would Warner, Dreamworks, and Fox want to make animation while they're enjoying heavy bucks with live-action flicks. We should or can assume that these studios want that public reputation Disney has and they had never, by personal envy from executives or whatsoever. Okay, it's a good advantage for the audience to get more films than just one studio. But in true respect, people shouldn't start spitting or criticizing Disney or its tradition just for the sake of their likes or obsessions with Anastasia or Prince of Egypt, and such. If an individual come to find other studio films more preferable(I mean personal) over any of Disney's films, better off knowing it for themselves rather than using it as a weapon to criticize Disney for the world to hear. Besides and again, Disney was the main inventor of animated feature films. If Snow White were never born, there would've been no PoE or Antz or Anastasia. Disney's traditional featurely animation annual trend help other studios to start aiming that market(officially owned by Disney). Don't go around telling me Jeffery Katzenberg is a genius because I don't find this true. Many classic Disney films such as Aladdin or Mermaid were run by Katzenberg at his reign, but simply the credit goes to the directors who actually put their time, effort, and thinking into the film with Katzenberg just coaching behind. Same goes with Prince of Egypt. The movie was very well done, but it's rather absurd that I hear people giving the credit to Katzenberg ignorantly ignoring the directors of the film. Jeffery Katzenberg is the runs the Dreamworks animation unit, and his attempt is to vengeance Disney(or Eisner out of jealousy or hate) by using the greedy strategy like I said over and over agains, Using Disney to overtake Disney. Using Disney's animators and composers, taking Disney's original ideas, spying on Disney's projects, etc. etc. etc. Agains, no one bashes Disney's formula composing of a sidekick, wantful hero or heroin, and related factors. Even though I personally hate Disney's formula, I won't bash Disney simply because Disney gave us animation of the past to apprecite and respect, and I have a definite understanding that Disney is gradually changing their animation over the next few years. Mulan was a first sign even though it kept tight to the formula, it did have changes. Tarzen will be a step further. And when you see year 2000's Dinosaurs and Atlantis, you'll know how climatically adult animation can be. Dreamworks has a beginning reputation of adult animated movies simply because PoE was an idea that Katzenberg tailgated since he found out about Atlantis and Dinosaurs, and then the film happen to finish production first. This is because Disney is a very busy studio taking care of at least 5 films at a time, meanwhile Dreamworks has just one or two to worry and it also enables them to intricately put much quality into these films. Concerning the size of the two studios as one individual mentioned above, how can you call a $23 billion ($70 billion in market capitilization) Mouse house anywhere near the 4-year old amateurish Dreamworks which barely generates below $1 billion in market capitilization as well as sales? It's way obvious that one overshadows the other. Indulge me and my aggressiveness, but I honestly think Disney can either buy or crush Dreamworks any day. No offense for the last statement. Peace.
-Walter- -
Roger Thornhll, I agree with your statement about the *relative*economy of quality production design, but even so I question your friend's ability to have done a brilliant film with 10 Mill.I wish he could have...Your quote-
" While the production my friend would have undertaken would have
half the budget( RICH had about 20 Million I understand) , the quality of one's art direction (character design and BG design) need not be affected by the budget.Paper and pencils don't change with the budget."
We are, I think, entering a time when animated feature budgets are going to shrink, but still I think it would have been difficult to have made a good film with 10M....If for no other reason, because the really good talent is getting paid really well at successful shops. One of the main reasons The R+B 'KING and I' looks so bad is because the designs have to be dumbed down so that mediocre talent can work with them on a tough production schedule.Anyway, my only point is that in animation there's no way around it: Quality Counts, Quality Costs, Quality is the best Guarantor of Profit....(Did I paraphrase Sears or Walmart with that line?)
As for the WB, they will keep on polishing turds, hoping to make something pretty...They haven't figured out that no matter how much you polish a turd...its still a turd.... -
Roger Thornhll, I agree with your statement about the *relative*economy of quality production design, but even so I question your friend's ability to have done a brilliant film with 10 Mill.I wish he could have...Your quote-
" While the production my friend would have undertaken would have
half the budget( RICH had about 20 Million I understand) , the quality of one's art direction (character design and BG design) need not be affected by the budget.Paper and pencils don't change with the budget."
We are, I think, entering a time when animated feature budgets are going to shrink, but still I think it would have been difficult to have made a good film with 10M....If for no other reason, because the really good talent is getting paid really well at successful shops. One of the main reasons The R+B 'KING and I' looks so bad is because the designs have to be dumbed down so that mediocre talent can work with them on a tough production schedule.Anyway, my only point is that in animation there's no way around it: Quality Counts, Quality Costs, Quality is the best Guarantor of Profit....(Did I paraphrase Sears or Walmart with that line?)
As for the WB, they will keep on polishing turds, hoping to make something pretty...They haven't figured out that no matter how much you polish a turd...its still a turd.... -
in responce to Walter, i know he's right on. I have a very close friend who is a REALLY big shot over at Disney, and he told me that all of the "Katzenburg films" were all out slap-stick comedies, aimed at both adults and children. Once he got his grubby hands on them he took out most of the funny "kid-stuff." My friend told me about some of the deleted scenes from these movies, and i was on the floor in hysterics because i could only imagine what they would have turned out like. Even over at dreamworks, Katzenburg had a problem with the camel in POE because it was too cartoonish. In the end almost half of the camels scenes were cut. Well Mr. Katzenburg, what do you think POE is, a live action epic? NO! its a CARTOON! I just can't seem to warm up to Dreamworks yet. The animation unit is run by a guy who hates cartoons. And Harry, dont delete this message because i knock your sugar daddies.
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When the studio's stop catering to the 10 and under set in animated films. Then will disney truly be beaten. SKG's POE sucked donkey because they kept on catering to the to the 10 and under set (Exhibit A; The when you believe song after the death of children). When the studio does an animated film for adults then disney will get the ASS WOOPING it deserves...if only we still had Robotech sigh...
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Guys, my defense of Dreamworks should not be construed of hatred of Disney. I like both companies, and I think there's plenty of room for both to succeed (and, realistically speaking, I think that's what's going to happen). But Walter, you're crediting them with too much. Disney would LIKE you to believe that they are the alpha and the omega when it comes to animation, but they aren't...simply the best purveyors of it for the last fifty years. There were lots of other talented artists working on animation at the same time Disney was...ever heard of Ub Iwerks? The Fleischer brothers? But Walt was the one with business savvy. We should be thankful that such a canny businessman was also such a talented animator, but still...who's to say that he wouldn't have been surpassed, artistically, if someone else had managed to compete? Anyway, I don't think anyone's ever going to "crush" Disney. Nor do I want anyone to. I just want some VARIETY, for crying out loud. Disney is NOT going to convey it, not Tarzan, not Dinosaurs, and I doubt Atlantis. It's not in their nature to do truly mature animation. I don't criticise them for that. I love their stuff, and I wish them many years of happiness. But I think you guys ascribe way too much to Disney in terms of coming up with ideas. POE owes ZILCH to Disney. It was Katz's idea from day one of Dreamworks (cause it's like a parallel for his escaping from Disney, get it?) As for "getting it done faster" to beat Disney from Tarzan, gimme a break. A brand-new animation unit, working as hard as they obviously did on POE, vs. an established production house with some of the most talented animators around? Of course POE wouldn't have been finished first if it had been a race. The idea of making a more mature animated movie can hardly be attributed to Disney. Even if it could, I don't see anything on their slate as mature as POE. As for Walter's statements about Katzenberg not having much to do with the success of his movies. Walter, the producer-director relationship is a LOT different in animation than in live-action. Because there are so many details to attend to, the directors have to make the creative decisions for each scene, character design, etc. but the producer's job is to have an idea of the big picture. Katz picked out the concept for POE, he chose the art styles that would impact it (the directors and animators implemented those styles), he chose what character angles were significant and which weren't, he made dozens of other decisions that affected the movie greatly. He had the vision that unified the whole movie, whereas the artists made all their contributions on a smaller and more detailed scale. A movie with three directors is probably not going to feature a specific vision unless the producer steps in. Isn't it obvious from the movies Katz has been attached to that he's had an impact, in storytelling, in theme, in style? Some criticism of Dreamworks is justified, but yours is more like blind hatred.
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Yahoo! Go Katzenburg! When I was watching the HORRIBLY overrated (at least by this site) Prince of Egypt, I saw those camels during the parting of the red sea scene and thought "Jesus, look at that stupid thing!" I mean, you've got the climax of the movie (since they deleted the orgy scene, made for adults my ass!) when they are crossing the sea, then, all of a sudden, this bug-eyed CAMEL appears on screen, Jeff Goldbulm talks to it, it moans. That right there took away ANY credibility, suspense, or other good elements of the scene away. POE was so uneven it made me cry. I will get flamed for this, but Mulan was much MUCH better! And it made more, so there! I thought Mulan pushed the envelope more than POE. POE was too busy having stone noses chase after Moses trying to act like Aladdin while ripping off Ben Hur (poorly) to be effective. And whenever a song came on in POE the movie came to dead, grinding HALT! You Disney bashers should go watch Beauty & the Beast if you want a taste of how an animated movie SHOULD be made. Were there ANY good lines in POE? I can remember good, poignant lines left and right from The Ten Commandments, all POE had was the stanard 'My life is a lie!' crap, a la Aladdin. POE had the same problem Hercules did. It tried to hard to be like the two most popular Disney movies (Mermaid & Aladdin) and therefore ended up burying itself in convention. And also, Hunchback was a wonderfuly dark movie! Sure, it had those statue sidekicks, but other than that WOW! Boiling oil, lust, they said hell AND damnation, what more could you want? It WAS from the director of Beauty and the Beast, you know... AND I DON'T SEE POE IN THE BEST PICTURE NOMINATIONS, DO I????
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It still comes out as if you're praising Dreamworks(Katzenberg) just for the fact that you think they came up with a unique idea of making animated films for adults. And you still somewhat blame Disney or think they don't have the ability to do that. I told you once, I'll tell you twice. PoE has been assumed by many(not only myself) that it was a taken angle from Disney again with Atlantis heading that "Adult" animated film direction. Maybe I should be more specific, Atlantis has been verified with no songs, no comic relief, and a straight forward story about the lost civilization that is assumed to eventually be rated PG. No, I don't judge a movie as mature just based on anti-kid appropriate(Antz), but the plot of Atlantis can be judged even by the blind that is not what kids will enjoy. You can title Dreamworks "Adult Animation" if you personally believe this, but I just think or in fact morally forbid Disney(or any other studio) from doing the same. Even though on my view, Disney had that step first because they knew that the animation market will eventually broaden to higher age groups. Katzenberg knew this, and therefore he manage to develope PoE's idea, NOT because he wanted to escape from the Disney past. Besides, how much variables can you pull out of Dworks to officially call it an "Adult" studio? To what I've already seen, PoE is the only movie that is mature and enough for the PG rating. Just because Antz had profanity and needless blood doesn't mean it is a mature movie. There is a difference between a movie that is adult and a movie that is not appropriate for kids. Antz would fit with the not-appropriate for kids category. Besides the needless profanity(swear words) that I felt were there for no reason, the plot of the movie, the animation, and the humor were all understandable and enjoyable for little kids. Why don't people consider the villain being eaten by a bird in "A Bug's Life," and call It adult? Don't get me wrong, I find Antz very entertaining, but in terms of being mature or adult, I can obviously see that this was a studio purpose act to grant it a PG. PoE is based on a biblical theme, therefore it would be very boring for kids to see and inspire. Yes, you are correct. I am very much biased for Disney but again that is what a fan does, don't they? No, I don't step on other studios even when they're at competition(Fox), but I do disappreciate Jeffery Katzenberg for stealing the glory in which he don't deserve. And because the man runs the entire unit, I'm sad to say I disappreciate that studio as I disappreciate him. Next time.
-Walter- -
I post I had written above is directly to "Blah Blah" and such following believers. Keep in mind that I do respect your opinions, but I greatly disagree.
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God forbid we should introduce Broadway culture to the youth of America through animation. Your story is only partially correct. "Kick 'em when they're up, kick 'em when they're down...." And check your source before you state it as truth.
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Obviously I'm not going to change anyone's opinion here, but I'll give it one last shot. Walter--there was no point at which someone at Disney said, "I know! We'll do ADULT animation!" And everyone marvelled at their originality. People have been trying to make animation an adult medium since it was invented. Disney took its shot with Fantasia, which wasn't really "adult" but was "all ages". It was a bomb that has since become a classic. But it convinced Disney to make cartoons for the kiddies. THat's what they did, that's what they're doing, that's what they will do. If Atlantis is more mature than their other works, it's the same kind of maturity that pervaded their best work, just stretched out to feature length instead of squashed into the occasional scene. Disney does not have a single project planned that will aim over the heads of kids. Nor will they ever do so. Nor SHOULD they do so. Disney provides quality kid's features, and they will always do so with style and wit. Dreamworks, on the other hand, is rapidly evolving a more mature style. POE and Antz were steps, not the finished product. THey will still turn out the occasional kiddie flick, like "El DOrado", but already their aim is more ambition in this area than Disney. Hunchback and Mulan, cutting edge? That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard. Hunchback was not a truly mature film, it just seemed a bit racier than their previous stuff. THrowing in references to God and some scary scenes does not make a movie more mature. It's still a ludicrous simplification of Hugo's grand novel. ANd Mulan...that's not even worth debating. POE, meanwhile, was obviously constructed for those who had a greater attention span than a flea. YOung kids during both sscreenings I saw were squirming or confused. There are no easy one-liners or gimmick characters. Even Hotep and Huy were ultimately (slightly disappointingly) toned down. And would you care to explain how a couple of shots of a stylized camel can ruin the suspense, yet the non-stop babbling of a talking dragon voiced by Eddie Murphy enhances the drama? As for Antz...this is ironic, because I feel ABL is a much better film than Antz, but Antz is definately pitched at a higher level. THe fact that it's structured after (and borrows from) a Woody Allen film. The Marxist stuff. The First Blood references. THe theme of the thing, for crying out loud. There' sa lot more to it than a couple of stray curse words. ****But hey, we all have our own opinion. I've bashed Dreamworks in the past, I just like to play devil's advocate. But I think all-encompassing hatred for any studio is silly, even WB has it's good points. They're only human. YOu've got to look at the product, not the silly games that went into it, because that's all anyone's going to care about in a few years.
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Requoting yourself "Disney does not have a single project planned that will aim over the heads of kids." It's as if you're still either thinking that Disney is somewhat a whimp or lack the ability to make adult animated films OR you can't accept the fact that Disney is taking that step (Which I still understood they attempted first). Disney had made good business for the past decades on films that aimed at kids because it brings a big market. But, to what I've known of and you can't keep denying is the fact that Atlantis is adult, and will not be just mature compared to the others(As you put it). When will you accept a movie as being adult? Does it need to portray God like Prince of Egypt, or much worst use pornography in order to achieve that limit? To what I can assume, you and such portions of the audience have seen Disney's kid-oriented films in the past and have strongly adopted the moral idea that Disney is a studio that only makes movies for kids. Even if Disney's future offers anything to an R-rated. Again, Atlantis will be that step without the pornography but it will be as mature as the word says. Re-emphasizing Mulan and Hunchback to be cutting edges of animation, I'm afraid that is definitely true not only from my point of view but from many I've heard from. No, I'm not saying they were kid-abandoned films, but they do have a more mature theme in them than many in the past. If
you stated that the portrayal of a monster looking man and the emphasis of God isn't what makes a film adult, then for what reason do you call Antz adult? Besides those profanity as I said before and few needless blood, I still see the plot and animation of Antz to be totally kid-understandable as well as appealing. (Take this for consideration, the theatre I went in to view Antz were loaded with kids 10 and below). Hunchback is not adult as either Mulan, but they have a more grown-up theme, plot, animation, and such subject importance far distance from Antz. Of course PoE definitely raise higher ages than those two, but that is the reason why I see it absurd for people to ALREADY call Dreamworks an *adult* animation studio, when they had only release one truly adult animated film.
Finally, and in fairness, I do agree with you that the product is what counts regardless of all other related aspects. But, isn't it weird how you can still try to convince me, and many others, to justice innocence for Katzenberg and his team when you believe the product(and only the product) is most important.
-Walter- -
Walter, you gotta be a disney animator or something, and a very insecure one at that. No one is attacking disney, but you take everything that is not pro-disney as a direct, biting criticism. Disney is not the end-all of animation. Right now, i think they're the best studio, but they aren't the only ones out there. Please stop putting out 3 page long talkbacks trying to justify your blind faith in disney
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when the glasses are filled with Jim Beam and when Barry White is playing on the stereo....well, that's how it all starts!
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