yippieeee! nice pics.

Ouch, that face pull business looks painful , cool , but painful

looks perfect.

hope the film version is more viscious - drool, big teeth, bulk etc.

even pre-CGI Venom looks awesome. I'm glad to be up early for once.

thing what what a merger between the alien from alien and human what look like and to that end despite what sigourney said about no more aliens. I cant think of a better director to make another alien movie then Raimi. or danny boyle. A spaceship is heading towards the sun but before that one of the crew went down to neighbouring planet. Crew gets picked off by a hungry acid splitting monster.

UNT makes the tourney! Way to go Mean Green!

Which they no doubt will...

cant wait...

am i the only one who finds the images of Venom quite sexual....god damn my geeky side...

because those venom pics rock. i saved em all, so sony can be the bitches they wanna be now. i'm good.

Taking a dirt nap?<p>If this movie doesn't have you by the balls yet, you're not paying attention.

Oh, they're still here? That's odd...it's been 5 minutes already.

I think it's awesome to see a comic book movie get a little more "fantastic". Most of the comic book movies so far have shrunk the world that these people live in, leaving only a handful of "super" characters. Plus, any other-worldliness that these characters normally have are lost in more naturalistic readings of the source material. It's nice to see a superhero world a little more populated with actual heroes and villans.

If it's Topher, when did he grow biceps?

...look like the Venom in those fake Spiderman 3 trailers from a while back that used clips from Spawn.

"Yeah, I'm a comic book nerd - fuck you!"

"before sony pulls the plug"??? Do they own this site? How the hell do they get to pull anything? Tell them to go fuck themselves! Cool pics though

Looks cool, cant wait to Topher Grace in action.

Hollywood raping my dreams yet again.

looks bored as hell

Concept art looks great. Real life Venom suit looks kinda crappy.

Can. Not. Wait.

Well done

the aicn heyday circa 1998. sweet.

Spiderman´s real star

This is, indeed, some of the coolest stuff I've seen from Spidey 3. Sandman looks great, and Venom looks incredible, especially that shot of Grace in the practical outfit with the vines creeping up the back of his head.<p>I really can't wait to see this one.

Venom is more of a galactic force not a guy in spandex.<br>It looks too venomy. <br> This will be the worst summer ever.<br>

I can't tell whether it's deliberate or not, but that is a funny catchphrase. Not up there with COSMPIC POWER, maybe, but good all the same. If only I could figure out a way to use it in my normal, non-AICN life.

"Too Venomy."<p>See, that just doesn't work.

"Just venomy, and you?" Does that work for ya?<p>Pics look fantastic! I just can't wait for this movie.

...here, and just what I needed to give my morning a nice "looking forward to something" jolt. Church looks perfect and, while I'm no fan of the Venom character at all, I have to say Grace looks kick-ass, as do the designs for the character. Can't wait for this thing to open.

What, you mean it's fanboy art and plain wrong rumors?

Any idea who that concept artist is? Looks like "Crash" McCreary's pencil work, but I doubt it.

"Nah - too Venomy."

Yeah, Raimi's got a long history of crappy flicks, right? Jeez, you guys can all go take a flying f^$% into driveway full of broken glass! Rewatched EVIL DEAD II last night and you know what? It still rocks and Sam's still giving it up for you fan-boys in his current flicks. You assholes get more nods from Sam in one movie than a Dwight Schrute bobble-head. Give the guy a little love cause god knows he keeps giving it to you. Too Venomy indeed.

"She was too venomy for you. You didn't need to deal with that shit."

"Yes, but I find their early albums too Venomy."<p>I have been wracking my meagre brains (what else am I going to do - work?) and this is the best I can come up with. I don't know too many metalheads, though, so it's hard to know when this question might be asked.<p>Thanks for the tip, just pillow talk. I see where you're going, giving the word some new and flexible meaning, like 'shiny' in that Firefly malarkey, maybe. I'll give it a go, but if anyone looks at me funny I'm blaming you.

Can't wait to see it! http://tinyurl.com/2lnv56

And the character looks quite Venomacious.

You beat me to it!

OK, I know Venom's only in the last 2 minutes of the movie or whatever, but it's still jumping the shark having him in, especially with the goofie teeth like a Metroid Prime boss or something.

"Oh no - way too Venomy."

with three accounts of soliciting stolen goods and two accounts of breaking and entering. How does the defendant plead?" "Too venomy, your Honor."

"just take it in stride."<p>Fair enough....I'm sure you won't get too many funny looks. I'm quite sure.

"Yep, but them there snakes we's uh handlin' wuz too venomy!"

which is a good thing, obviously.<p>As mah dear old daddy used to say: "Always remember, young Frank, it's better to be too Venomy than too silver!"

...behind venomy lines.

bitch

If Sandman has sex with a woman, does he leave sand in her vagina?

sweeeeeeeeeet.

should this site care what sony does or doesnt do? i thought u didnt play the hollywood pr spin game?? or now that u sold out u do?

THE VENOMY OF MY VENOMY IS MY FRIEND, UNLESS HE IS SAM RAIMI, AND HE WILL KNOW TRUE FAILYUR WHEN THE INDIAN SPIDER-MAN UNLEASHES HIS COSMPIC POWERS AND DESTROYS ALL VENOMY WICKED CHARLATAINS. SPIDER-RAJ RULES!

"Too venomy, your Honor." Jesus Harold Christ, that's funny, and it will be stuck in my head forever. Should I ever be on trial for some reason, the temptation to say "Too venomy, your Honor" will be overwhelming. This being on trial is a serious business, I hear, and I'll be standing there in my best suit, stifling my giggles, a small amount of wee escaping into my shorts, and waiting for the chance to say it. I do not think the judge will be impressed.

The leaping venom in the middle of the pencil sketches looks perfect. Hope they get the organic feel right!

This kind of confirms what I have suspected all along, or atleast doesn't do anything to disprove it.. Brock will transform into Venom at the end of the movie in the belltower, and then the credits will probably roll.. Notice there is only really concept art for him transforming and lunging, which is what we see in the trailer. I don't mind this actually, I think they would be trying to fit too much in the movie if Pete was already getting rid of the suit half way through. Bring on Venom and Lizard in part IV.

a rip off from the Alien movies.

Wanna see the best ass... well done aicn.

Those are great. That is some amazing art work!

No matter how hard you work, you simply can't get a human jaw to look anything like Venom's. Either rig a Stan Winston animatronic head on there ala Ninja Turtles, or CGI the bitch!

I read on CNN that Marvel has killed off Steve Rogers. This is not news here?

Nope, I think the Venom will get down with good spidey. I've seen pics (including the above) with Venom shooting black webbing.

I HATE THEM, kill off cyclops, kill off iron man, BUT CAPTAIN AMERICA... fuck that shit.

I thought Spiderman was/would become Venom. But it seems like Topher, Son of Goblin is/will be. Oh well. Art looks great. Only thing I got from Spiderman was from the revised cartoons anyway.

Erase all this civil war crap, put the wings back on his helmet, and make peter parker icognito again.

http://films.thelot.com/films/30017

Anything to create controversy, huh Marvel? How about coming up with creative and entertaining stories, without altering the fundamental stories and characterizations of well established and beloved characters? I stopped reading comics right before the infamous "Spider-Man clone saga," and I'm glad I did, as I probably would have thrown out all my old Spider-Man comics in disgust if I had seen that as it happened. Killing off characters is the laziest way to create buzz/interest and pretend that you're doing something daring, when in reality you're only showing everyone the creative vacuum that you are trapped in. Love live Cap. *friendswithbenefits.com*

"Venomy Sniktlet's Series of Unfortunate Brain Eating Parasite Aliens"

He gets popped by a SNIPER'S BULLET?!?! Fuck this shit!

F this. Frickin Blasphemy

I'm impressed they didn't go all CGI with Venom. And killing Cap is really fucking stupid. They fuck up Spidey now this. For shame Marvel.

instead of stories and characterization. Captain America will return, and lots of people will buy the NEW Captain America #1, and it will be wrapped in a plastic flag with 500 shiny variant covers. Marvel has run themselves into the ground and taken the comic industry with them.

DAMN !!! WISH I HAVEN'T SEEN THESE. Now I'll imagine how it's done when it's on scree, Never did read 'ART OF' books before seeing the movies of said books. Damn.

I stopped reading comics during the Clone Saga. That just sucked balls. I have to admit that Civil War 1 got my interest back into comics. I recently bought issues 500 to present of Amazing Spider-Man. Everything up until the Civil War thing was very good again. Overall I think Civil War sucked. Pointless. Now Cap is dead. Not good. Marvel has really sucked up things.

which is why I stopped reading them 15 yrs ago. Killing Cap just doesn't make any sense. Oh wait, let's launch the series yet again for the first time. You got that right INWOsuxRED...

Its in the fucking thead title jack ass, don't want to see spidy pic don't look. You know perfectly well what goes on this site stop being a little bitch

First off, Sweet!!!!!!!! that the pictures are still up. Look totally great, can not wait for SM3. As far as Marvel killing Cap, FUCK MARVEL. This is horseshit. They better bring him back somehow, I don't care how. I want Cap back, still my greatest halloween costume . My mom made it when I was like 9, f'n greatest ever. F Marvel in their stupid ass.

Get a grip, fanboys.

The Red Skull will not allow Cap to stay dead. Cap died before and the Skull used the same technology and powers that brings him back to life to help him prevent Hitler from becoming omnipotent Besides, if ANYONE is going to kill Cap once and for ever it should be The Red Skull.<br> But outside of the comic book reality, from a praticul stand point this is just to boost sales. A character whose popularity has dipped gets killed to cause an outcry and people who have not though about Cap in years will suddenly demand his return and buy his books. We have seen it all before (Superman, The Green Arrow, The Green Lantern,The Blue Beetle, even Bucky is back.) Cap will be back and more popular than he has been in years due to this stunt.<br> It just surprises me they are pulling this NOW because the Captain America title is the best it has been in a long time. From what the CNN article said, it is obvious they are going to keep going to cover the reactions of his friends and foes to Cap's death. So you know that "Captain America will throw his might shield" again soon.

Maybe they will scrap it out for a few after Brock transforms into Venom, but the belltower scene has to be near the end of the movie.. They have already packed so much in, what with the marriage to Mary Jane, the black suit storyline, Gwen Stacy, the Sandman, the culmination of the Harry Osborne/Green Goblin plot and.. Venom? I'd love to see them fight it out at the end, if that is the case, but I also think it would be a waste of a decent character if Venom was dispatched so quickly at the end of the film and didn't return for a bulkier role in Part IV..

It's coming out in a couple of months and we haven't see a single clip....what's going on?

Peter Krause from Six Feet Under. That's who I'm going with. And somehow we need to get Klaus Kinski back from the dead to play the Red Skull. Actually, Ulrich Muhe from Lives of Others would be fantastic. There you go, Peter Krause as Captain America and Ulrich Muhe as the Red Skull. While we're at it I'll cast Thor, let's make Thor Jouko Ahola, Loki Bill Moseley, and Odin Stellan Skarsgard.

Don't buy the "death", and don't buy the relaunch. Don't encourage this shit. Don't let Marvel continue to shit on you and charge you for it. If you don't buy it...SOMEONE THAT SUCKS GETS FIRED. It really is that simple.

Screw that, he should be solo villain material, I don't care what anyone says.

Really need to get down with the whole SPOILER concept, you know? Fuck those guys. I wasn't following the Civil War so I could read that shit crawiling on the bottom of the TV screen, while hearing an update on how putrid Anna Nicole's corpse was. Fuckers.

Sorry, that was awful. But I was enjoying the Venomy talkbalk so much...

wont be what his jawline looks like on film. Thats pre cgi i suppose.if its the real deal then fuck this movie, but i dont think they're that dumb. It'll be more like the drawings after CGI... DONT FUCK WITH VENOM'S JAW!!! AND HIS TEETH MUST BE HUGE! AND HE MUST HAVE TENTACLES!!! Fuck this black webbing shit... I want to see tentacles too. He is after all an alien symbiote and nothing screams alien like GIANT FREAKIN TENTACLES!!! but as long as they dont fuck up his face and the fact that he's like a hundred times stronger than spidey so spidey has to outwit him ill be happy. And he has to talk as venom and say something cool like 'WE ARE VENOM!!!'

FUCKING VENOM!! the first words spidey says has to be something 'HOLY SHIT I JUST FUCKING PISSED MYSELF!!'

is a wise crack like 'oh my what big teeth you have'... throw back to little red riding hood

That's the price of posting while at work and in a hurry and not spell checking.

that would be cool too

I was disappointed to see Spidey's black suit lacked the white wrap-around spider, but it looks as though Venom has it.

I want to see carnage now...... spiderman 4?

Was the worst piece of imagination, ever. "What's better than Spidey fighting one monstrous look alike? Spidey fighting TWO monstrouse look alikes!!!"

...because that's what Venom does, tongue-y stuff.

Choose any of the sinister six (that aren't dead of course)...<p>Why ganymede, did a dog take a crap on a transformer now?

I have been reading Captain America since before this stunt and Civil War. So it is not like i would be buying it because of this stupidity. But I am thinking i should drop the title till the death and relaunch "speical issues" are over so as not to encourage them.<br> I've heard that this is going to be Tobey Maguire's last time as Spider-Man. Has anyone else heard that or is it just net rumors?

I have been reading Captain America since before this stunt and Civil War. So it is not like i would be buying it because of this stupidity. But I am thinking i should drop the title till the death and relaunch "special issues" are over so as not to encourage them.<br> I've heard that this is going to be Tobey Maguire's last time as Spider-Man. Has anyone else heard that or is it just net rumors?

The worst thing Marvel ever did to Venom was let whoever put the frickin' toungue and dumb jagged tooth grin. Does anybody remember how subtle and wicked Venom was when you could only see Brock's creepy smile on what was otherwise a bulky Spider-man? Less is more, guys.

Those images are so freaking sweet! Venom looks bad ass!

He looks very good I must say and he is my favorite character in the marvel universe. I'll get shit for that I'm sure but honestly I love this character. I really hope he doesn't get the shaft. I'm greatly for him to be in the film considering it could be the last but I honestly feel as though this film should have just set up Venom for spidey 4. Introduce brock and the suit and end the film with him turning into venom. And for the haters that don't think he's strong enough to be the solo villian then I say add another one and it would be fine. It just seems like to much is going on in spidey 3 as it is, and I want the character to be done justice, I don't brock to become venom fight for 10-15 mins die and that's that. I fear that is what will happen but again I'm grateful for him to be in the film considering it could be the last one. I hope they give him his own film nothing huge budget but like it or not he has a huge following and there are fans pumped just for him alone, and hell the producers of the film knew he had to be involved because the fans wanted him. A lower budget dark (think blade) marvel film of venom vs carnage a glorified action movie, would be great for the fans of the character.

with topher doing the thinker shows the white spider on the back... i think.

i love how there's different versions of him. and the teeth get bigger. sweet!!!!!

I can kind of relate to what you're saying. But your post was a little too venomy.

Practical effects enhanced with CGI. I have faith in these guys.

Good work, Quesada. Unmask Spider-Man, then put a bullet in Captain America. Meanwhile, on the isle of Fiji, Jim Shooter is laughing his ass off and John Byrne is asking "What about me"?

F#%* your Micky Mouse!

Provided of course that there is a Spider man 4. First I think that Peter Parker facing his own darkside being brought out by the black suite deserves it's own movie. Harry as the Green Goblin and Sand man (who in this version is apprently the person who murdered Uncle Ben) will be the perfect villains for Spiderman to face in that crisis. Wanting revenge against the Sandman will open him up to the suite's influence. And while hurting or killing his old friend Harry is a line normal Peter would never cross. The suiters influence will make him vicious enough and powerful enough to take both. Secondly. Venom deserves to be the solo villain in a Spider Man. He's just too bad ass to have to share screen time. And Raimi can find some approriate theme of helplessness or fear that Venom can symbolize for Peter. Also the Venom pics look badass. Sandman's pretty cool too.

they killed superman... and the aftermath there with all those shitty superman spin off characters (ie superboy, the last son of krypton, steel, cyborg superman,). Eventually they had to just bring superman back. ARE WE GOING TO GET SOME BULLSHIT CYBORG CAPTAIN AMERICA? FUCK THAT!

Does anyone know what's supposed to be happening to Brock in the movie that makes him look like that? I say a stroke.

hahahaha brock likes it rough

He expects fan base reaction to Cap's death to be quite venomy.

...needs more tongue.

You can't please me.

Pull my finger.

Despite what the trailers show. It's an obvious ploy. Someone is framing him (Harry, most likely) to get Pete's shackles up. I thought that was pretty much consensus on these TalkBacks (and everywhere else that geeks congregate)- but I keep seeing people pop up bitching about it. How's this: IF IN THE MOVIE IT IS REVEALED THAT SANDMAN REALLY DID KILL BEN PARKER, I WILL EAT MY OWN SHORTS! NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

SM3 looks awesome. Killing Cap is dumb. Later.

This movie is going to rock my socks off!!!

Someone at Sony must be falling down on the job.

That is fucking BADASS!!!

WTF? They killed off captain america? http://www.wizarduniverse.com/conventions/la/003796419.cfm

I'm never watching another Spider-Man flick. :-)

Rather than pulling some uneccesary cliffhanger bullshit - besides we've already had the main cliffhanger with Harry discovering the Goblin lair - Raimi seems to be using Venom sparingly...from what I can tell, 'Venom' doesn't come into play until act 3 and it seems like the actual character is meant to be the culmination of Peter's journey through the 3rd film (the black suit, pissing off Brock) so at the end, he faces his demons so to speak (in this case the thing that made him evil and someone I guess he fucked over when he was a bad seed). Smart way to use the character besides the Brock character is the whole film as is the symbiote/goo stuff so I'm guessing you have 'Venom' throughout the film...he just has really comes into play in act 3.

He says I shoulda posted something Vemon-y earlier when it was funny. <p> I'm surprised it's still up. Then again, SM3 is only 3 months away. <p> BTW - Can someone find the article where THC (or was it KD again?)spilled the beans on the Uncle Ben thing? I wanna see Frijole eat his shorts.

It defeats the whole purpose of why Parker became Spiderman BASED OFF THE MOVIE'S LOGIC. He became Spiderman because of the guilt he felt for letting Uncle Ben's supposid killer and not taking reponsibility blah blah blah. Well if the guy didn't really kill Uncle Ben then the guilt has got to certainly be alot less for Peter, thus destroyng why he became Spiderman. This sounds like total bs but I hear Ben Kingsly has a suprise cameo as THE VULTURE. Great casting but does not sound viable to me

So AICN post images that they know Sony will want removed. They go as far as saying so in the post. So they're knowing going against Sony's wishes. I can understand that - after all, getting scoops should be what the site is about. So then why pull them when Sony asks for it? They knew Sony wouldn't want them up and posted them anyway. Why bother respecting Sony's wishes and pull them? I can't imagine a lawsuit would be pending as, if that was a genuine threat, they wouldn't have posted them in the first place bragging that Sony won't want them doing it. Makes no sense to me.

Does anyone have another link?

...any minute now

...is that Marvel will not let him rest in peace and either cheapen his death with some contrived resurrection ala Jean Gray, or give the name and persona of Captain America to some "new improved" character ala Captain Marvel...they will not allow their copyright to expire. Marvel sadly has long become something far less than the fabled "Marble Comics" of my youth. What will they do with a "new Cap"? Will they make him a woman? An Arab-American Muslim? A gay dwarf in a whellchair? What lengths of "political correctness" will they stretch in doing this? They do not remember their own history - - those of us old enough to remember when Steve Rogers became disillusioned after the President's suicide (the Watergate scandal was a cover-up of the Secret Empire) and donned the black-clad garb of the Nomad, know what happens when others not worthy of the name pretend to the Living Legend of Captain America. This is just not good story-telling, but it will produce several new varients for action figure collectors. If Jack Kirby were still alive asses would be kicked!

http://snipurl.com/1cb4b

...Moriarty knew it when he posted them. Sony leaks the shots themselves, knowing they'll get put up because they can't be seen anywhere else. They wait until they've been online long enough to create buzz that will feed hype for their own movie, and then send a formal 'cease and desist' to let all the fans know that what they saw was for real. Nothing new there...just standard guerilla marketing ever since Hollywood got smart enough to play along with the game and use the web like they do with the rest of the media. ...But do they think we don't know they're doing it?

Well hopefully we all got a quick look and they'll be re-posted elsewhere in time, if not already.

Good thing I saved the Venom pics earlier. But, c'mon - why cave in to pressure? They threaten to sue? Yank visitation rights?

This is just Marvel's ploy to hide him out as some other character like Ronin or someone so that he can do things without being burdened with the iconic image of Captain America.

It had to be said.

THIS...IS...SPARTA!

http://snipurl.com/1cb5i

AICN handshakes with the studios on shit like this. Intriguing photos or clips are "leaked" to create buzz or counter negative roumors, then pulled shortly after so that the imagery isnt tired by the time the film is released.

Thanks for the explanation. That would seem to be the case. Tactics are all a bit too venomy for my liking but I guess we got to see some nice pics in the process of being their marketing department's bitches.

sorry Ratigan, looks like I aped your post. Like minds...

Headline: "Mori says, 'Fuck those TB bitches in their whiny asses.'"

you know it!

Why? Because it happened during Civil War, the most money grubbing, poorly written, bastardization that comicbookdom has ever seen. There isnt a single aspect of the entire crossover that isn't tainted by the horrid editors at Marvel. To this day an argument doesn't exist to justify the behavior of any of the characters in this event. Making the whole thing worse is what a piss poor uninsightful Bush allegory the whole thing is. The fact that Cap died to promote this lemon event makes his death completely worthless and without resonance. Not only that but after all the plots, all the storylines, and the cliffhangers in his some 60 year history, he's taken out by a sniper while walking to court?? I hope they show a shot of Red Skull saying "Man I should have just done that like 50 years ago." They'll try to say some shit like "His death signifies the death of the old American Dream way of thinking. We live in a more cynical age and there isn't room in it for a guy like Captain America." Which might almost be true if the lead up to it corresponded with that in the least. Instead the Bush allegory belongs more to the actual editors and writers at Marvel who would sacrifice any sort of credibility they have to make a buck and leave their own "mark" on these characters, regardless of how they have to twist them to do it. Pathetic. I hope when they inevitably bring him back they pretend like all that bullshit didn't even happen.

classic!!

Jack Kirby said it best years ago "comics have become commercials for toys". They want to sell a bunch of new action figures of "New Cap" or "New Caps" or the "Classic Cap Revived" ad nauseam.

Sorry.

Hahaha!

and just put him in the movie to throw a venomy bone to fanboys? That being the case, I can see Raimi throwing him in the last act, only to have Pete dispatch him rather quickly. There fanboys, you got your Venom on-screen wish and Raimi got the character out of his way.

it can get resurrected periodically...

has been explored in Captain America before in those classic Steve Englehart stories I referenced earlier. But Cap soon realised that America *needed* Captain America and Steve Rogers was the only man to do the job. Kirby then resumed the title. I fear that this new storyline will not be handled with any of the elegance or mythic grandeur of those mid seventies tales...but will descend into something contrived to make money of of as you say "Anti-American" feelings. I was ranting before but I would not be a bit surprised to see Steve Rogers replaced by a Muslim Arab-American as Cap. That reflects a lot of the current thinking. I have no problem with Marvel creating an Arab Muslim superhero, but to make him Captain America? A lesbian Batwoman is fine with me but a lesbian Captain America? Create a new icon to reflect diversity, I accept that but don't destroy an existing one. Now, can you imagine what Stephen Colbert is going to make of this?

two venomies doesn't make a right...

in some strange new place called theZone...alledgedly...at least - rumor has it...

He said, "Ow! That hurt like fuck!"

The part of the trailer where spidey lands in front of the big US flag does not appear in the version currently showing in England. Bad for business, I think.

Because he wouldn't help Halliburton defeat the Iraqis.

Gretsch stars in THE 4400, and was in TAKEN. He's Captain America. Aaron Eckhart's name keeps being waved here, but he's not right to me. His presence is wrong. Yes, he's an actor, a good one. He's tall. And he's got blonde hair. But he still doesn't look like Captain America.

or Captain Scandal? Or we can have Tony Blair, he's loved by his own country...

...even if our government fails to live up to them. Cap was never the embodiment of Washington DC politics, not FDR New Deal then, not Bush New World Order now. He represents the American Dream, the American Everyman, and yes the American Soldier. Steve Rogers is a timeless icon, a weakling who would have been considered useless in Hitler's Reich is given a secret formula designed by "Prof. Reinstein" a code-name derived from the most famous Scientist in the world who also happens to be a refugee German Jew. This transforms him into an Ubermensch equal to Himmler's wildest wet dreams...but without the ruthless, carniverous motivation that the Nazis ascribe to the paragon of the Herrenvolk. No, Steve Rogers is decent, egalitarian, hard working, idealistic, in short a bigger boy scout than Clark Kent! When the Germans attempted to counter him the result was a living Totenkopf, a grisly incarnation of death and madness. Cap is an Icon of everything that America should be, not of what it is. We *never* deserved him, but he fought for us regardless of that, without reservation. Whether or not we deserve him, we need him. Now more than ever.

In case you missed them the first time. http://lbunion.com/blog/420

Avi: "He's dead - now there will be no script!"

It just takes one site to post them. Then it spreads like a cancer through the Internet.

Long live Cap, long live the Gru.

in about 2 secs like Hawkeye. Don't worry about it.

all of 'em are juiced! I do agree though that he is needed to symbolize freedom and what it represents. There are no 'true' heroes anymore...all are shaded in gray now.

in line with the tone of Marvel Comics and their writing every character as the writer, not like the established characterization that existed prior to their annointed arrival.

rock hard ALL night long....

but these are just one simple click away...and, on a related note - new pictures of me and Cpt Kirk's 2pay can be seen everywhere...unfortuantely - nobody has requested that they be taken down yet...

years. Not really since Gru left. A few good spots here and there but the title has become a collection of the writer's grievances against the government. The Ultimates Cap is also a major turd but everyone loved the hype created by that so the Marvel U began to look more like the Ultimate U to me.

WARNING SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO PLANS TO ACTUALLY READ THE RAG IN WHICH STEVE ROGERS GETS SHOT - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OK I have not read this thing and now I really don't plan to, but, I have heard from reliable sources that The Red Skull organised the shooting, using Doctor Faustus to mind-control the shooter: SHARON CARTER! This just adds insult to injury.

WARNING SPOILERS FOR ANYONE WHO PLANS TO ACTUALLY READ THE RAG IN WHICH STEVE ROGERS GETS SHOT - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - OK I have not read this thing and now I really don't plan to, but, I have heard from reliable sources that The Red Skull organised the shooting, using Doctor Faustus to mind-control the shooter: SHARON Dix! This just adds insult to injury.

that most of these writers who claim to love these heroes actually hate them. They don't understand them, they belittle what they stand for, and in Cap's case they already killed him before all of this, you are right. They're a bunch of cynical black hearted t.v. writers with no imagination.

two should I believe...?

Elected. That way you'll never get a black, gay, or immigrant Captain America, Forp! Yay! Everybody wins (except for black, gay, and immigrant Americans, that is) <p> Ok, ok, having a little too much fun. Personally, I would be really curious to hear someone at Marvel give an honest explanation for this. It seems... I don't know, a little weird. I always thought of Captain America as a bit of a joke, I liked the way some writers handled him, like in MARVELS, but most of the time I thought: Here's a symbol of America as a big blue-clad clown running through the streets of New York beating up drug-dealers, and oh yeah, he's a COMIC BOOK ARTIST in his secret identity. Seriously. I know we're not supposed to think "but in real life--" But, in real life, someone would just shoot him. He's not invulnerable, he doesn't have a spidey sense, he can't outrun a bullet. And where the shit was he on 9/11? And did he go to Iraq? Maybe the editors killed him to express some clandestine, disgraceful anti-American sentiment, and right now they're chuckling to themselves and reading Marx and trying to figure out some way to help Al Qaeda, but I think it's much more likely that as editors they probably found it more and more difficult to sell a character that seems less and less plausible. I don't think Marvel is too un-American for Captain America, I think maybe Captain America is too American for America. Right now, anyway. Does that make sense?

for a few months.

"I don't think Marvel is too un-American for Captain America, I think maybe Captain America is too American for America. Right now, anyway." Well, that seems to be Marvel's basic policy regarding the character as well. After 9/11, they started on this path with using the character to examine America and now Cap's dead. So there's the conclusion they've drawn.

SICK AND FUCKING TIRED OF THIS "images removed" BULLSHIT!!!! GODFUCKINDAMMIT!!!<p> S-I-C-K!!!!

Man you are becoming my best AICN friend. Bendis, Millar, etc. have really shown their disdain for these superheroes over the years. In fact I think the entire Ultimates line is a paen to that very fact. But thats fine, cause its the Ultimates line. In regular continuity these writers simply don't have a place. Bendis, as wonderful with dialogue as he is, doesn't know the first thing about superheroes. Millar, with his plugging in Hollywood actors as likenesses for his characters and constant inside jokes, is just out for himself. Trying to create the bigger bang wherever they will let him play. He's absolutely nothing when he isn't stirring the proverbial pot. He knows this so he decided to go big and use the entire Marvel U as his playground in hopes that someday people will actually mistake spectacle for quality. The only thing that amazes me about Civil War is that Quesada could find a bunch of writers selfish enough to happily go along with all this bullshit without a single one of them saying "Hey, maybe we should actually justify these characters actions." I'll say he does a wonderful job weeding out the hacks and putting them in charge.

Marvel first, which wasn't too difficult because almost all of the characters became so damn toxic, but then DC because they started copying what Marvel had done. The characters really no longer stand for anything worthwhile for the most part.

Gentlemen, meet the new Ms.Marvel.

...were not worthy of Captain America. I am gay myself, and I was not born in this country. However, I feel strongly about the fact that to stay true to the myth...nobody is worthy of being Captain America except Steve Rogers. Remember the poor kid who tried and was crucified by the Red Skull? Captain America is a corporate owned commodity and his owners can do whatever they like to him. But he is also an iconic figure who represents more than a little bit of red and blue ink on newsprint. Those custodians of the legacy left by Simon and Kirby should have shown a little more respect for the vision of their creation, and less concearn for making the almighty buck. These characters will always sell...so long as you remain true to what they are all about. Killing off Cap is not remaining true. But as many have pointed out, that haven't been true to the character for a long time now. They won't leave it at this though, because if they don't have a character named Captain America in their publications for a certain amount of time they lose the copyright, then DC or somebody else will take it. this is why years after Mar-Vell's death and Carol Danvers power loss they kept bringing back new characters as "Captain Marvel" and "Ms. Marvel". They will resurrect Steve Rogers and make this whole storyline even more pointless, or create a New Captain America, just to prevent this from happening.

comic book these days. Good job, Quesada!

kind of money they are looking for with this stunt. If they wrote the characters correctly, on the other hand, they wouldn't need these stunt events to begin with.

r.i.p my brother may your sheild fly high in the sky..p.s. bush sucks

What is the story with that anyway?

...so here goes. JOE QUESADA HAS RAPED MY CHILDHOOD!!!

Cap's a symbol of the hope, freedom, and liberty that drew people to America when it was a young country. America's not that young anymore, though. In the first half of the last century it became a superpower, in the second half of the last century it became a fallible superpower, and the first few years of the current century have begun to display the fact that no nation, corporation, or any other organization can maintain an attitude of hope, prosperity, invulnerability, and devotion to ideals forever. The world got too complicated for Captain America, and this world has gotten too complicated for the image of America as an invincible bastion of freedom and opportunity. I don't like Cap being dead, but it may be the most appropriate thing for the character today.

is a good talkback. I second the statements of IndustryKiller

i love it when skinny dorks beef up

Put the poor bastards out of their misery. They deserve better than those idiots are giving them now.

That and Daredevil are two of the most consitantly well written traditional comics on the market these days. If you haven't read a comic in the last few years then you are missing some real quality entertainment from the big two comic companies (yes there is a _lot_ of crap as well) in things like Fables, Daredevil, Checkmate, Justice Society and more. Much like movies and TV, fans will always be divided but to write off an entire venue of fandom simply because there was a ton of crap some years ago belittles the work of some very talented people. For me, Ed Brubaker has earned enough trust to see what he has in store for Cap, given that the comic continues to be solicited well into the summer months.

...and the government is doing a ROBOCOP/SIX MILLION DOLLAR MAN type of *improvement* on America's hero. Heck, ...maybe even Tony Stark lends a hand behind the scenes. You have to admit, there is story potential for a comeback. And if they actually did it right, could it even compare to Batman's return in Frank Miller's "THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS"??? Well, ...that's an optimist's way of looking at it. And I'm no optimist.

I was just playin' around, with that whole black, gay, immigrant thing. I understand your point- Steve Rogers represented something in WW2 that had more to do with the ideology and will that America stood for in direct contrast with Nazi tyranny, and these themes pre-date contemporary notions of identity politics and what's commonly known (and constantly misinterpreted) as "political correctness". I agree with you, that this foundation can be preserved, and in fact shouldn't be upgraded or facelifted to fit the times, in fact- the Big Ideas that Captain America stood for at his inception are just as relevant today (if not moreso) than the newer ones we're wrestling with as a society right now. <p> The real difficulty must lie with the writers, because the world, and America AREN'T as small or as simple as they once were, as concepts that can be so easily distilled as "red and blue ink on paper". Much of what America stood against in WW2 can now be found within itself, America has become so complicated that it is more than one thing at the same time now. I believe that everything that America stood for, everything that made Captain America more than just ink on paper is still here, but I also believe that there's something else at work, something that corrupts the idea of a Captain America at it's core, and renderd the icon inert at best, ridiculous at worst. I'm not saying the writers at Marvel should have killed him off, I'm just finding it pretty easy to understand why they chose that option. Maybe it was the wrong one, or maybe it was overdue. Who knows.

Surely they can't be this stupid to disenfranchise all of their readers like this.

OMG! What the hey y'all!

...made me realise how dreary this thread is becoming...so to honor his bit of irreverence... http://snltranscripts.jt.org/99/99nbooks.phtml please fill in the gap.

spoiler---Ms. Marvel informs us that Cap is not dead "he's tucked away safe on the raft. no one knows. they're trying to save his life even as we speak." so there. go read it yourselves to confirm.

not that dark of a character. It was more James Bond than Cap.

worldviews in this country that interpret Captain America in two entirely different ways. Because there are different views of what is good and what is freedom. That is exactly why this character does not work anymore, or other characters like him.

but you're right, any more than one and the whole idea kind of falls apart.

http://www.firstshowing.net/2007/03/07/incredible-art-of-spider-man-3-photos-of-venom-and-sandman/

Comics is a fairly expensive medium to waste money on in hopes that something turns out good. That is the primary reason it is easy to write off comics. It wastes money and takes up space. To have to do extensive research, or extensive product sampling to finally find something acceptable just isn't worth it. Most other mediums are fairly easy to learn about from commercials and reviews. TV costs nothing, doesn't require you to go out of your way to find someplace that stocks it, and you can even do something else while you watch it. If you start collecting comics, you realize eventually that they take up too much space and you'd rather have room in your life for something else. The problems with comics, especially Marvel start at the top and work down so even if you find a title that is clicking, it will be taken over once or twice a year by the latest x-over that removes characterization, fucks up continuity, and trades interesting storylines for publicity stunts and "THIS ISSUE SOMEONE DIES" splashed across the cover. Once those are over, if the team producing quality is even still around, they will be dealing with a character that was just CHANGED FOREVER, and is no longer the same book you used to like, or they will be dealing with a character that hasn't changed at all, which just goes to show what a farce the x-over was in the first place. If the character winds up getting a movie or some other outside-of-comics spin-off, it will result in the comic twisting the character into the version you saw in the film, rather than the film staying true to the character. The company will degrade the best they have to make a fast buck, and we all know the great story we were totally into won't get finished until a new editor or writer comes along and decides he doesn't like it and ends it quickly and without logic so he can show you what HIS version of the character is all about. Old comic fans have the good runs that we care about, and the new stuff just isn't important anymore.

about, though. Cap represents something very specific and I think it would be nigh impossible to write the character in a way that honors that unless you believed it to some degree.

Back with the Avengers when they thawed him out of a giant block of ice (!?!?) floating off of Manhattan. Bad, bad gimmick. Cap's place was WWII, battling Nazis (alone or with the Invaders), and oppressive Commie Red Scare type stuff. They could have let him age through Vietnam and into the post-Nixon 70s. Let him grow old during Reagan. Symbolic of the End of America. But no, they had to insta-freeze him in some hokey ice block I never bought as a kid as anything but ridiculous.

They have a whole "Death of Captain America" mini-series to milk this out in, and it seems frank Castle picked up Cap's mask. The Punisher as Cap's replacement? Ugh. Also unoriginal...they did this before with John Walker.

What the hell is this, a goddamn soap opera? Will he return with amnesia???

cap wont die and everyone will forget about spidy's unmasking, this is all a ploy from marvel to get some attention since DC has been kicking their ass lately, you'll see, the sentry will make the world spin backwards and makes everyone forget the civil war events

shark. There is always a place for these characters - they're timeless to me.

sooo iconic. Not. It's like all of the stuff Alan Moore and Frank Miller were busy mocking before anyone realized it.

DC's Retcongasm that pretty much opened the floodgates for later comic writers to just do whatever the hell they wanted and reboot, revamp, and rework everyone under the sun. Half the people died, the remaining half either had new origins, selective amnesia, or just dis-a-fucking-peared into the void.<p>I could live my whole life without a comic book company trying to overexplain why some comic book published in the 40s has some narrative co-existence with a comic book published 40 years later.

I did the "venomy is my friend" thing at 9:08:01 AM. But really, we should all bow down to gorydon for "TOO VENOMY." Like Mr. Marmoset, I still like COSMPIC POWER better, but a little venomy goes a long way.

The character and the shield were cool but I always thought the name "Captain America" and the fact that he was basically wearing the American flag as a cotume was kinda lame. I mean, come on, he's got no powers but his "supreme patriotism" means he can go toe-to-toe with superpowered villains. That's just too much blatant propaganda for me to take him seriously.

Getting old, but still alive. And with him being a renowned tits lover, spending many nights in Montreal's topless bars, I'm positive he wouldn't mind having nipples on his suit.

He's just not the most powerful.

I could never take the whole rah-rah aspect of the character. I'm glad he's dead. Let him stay dead.

CNN was the one who broke the news about the cap's death, therefore spoilling the surprised for most of us who still need to catch up with marvel's civil war series. and cnn is own by time warner, just like DC. mmmm, conspiracy theories abound

He's a big dork. Sorry, but look at the guy!

It's all propaganda, gossip, rumors, and nonsense. I get my news from AICN Talkbacks. Tale that, Jon Stewart!

THat only made him 'the same as any other male for his size and weight that engages in regular intensive exercise'. At least that's what I remember reading in my trusty Who's Who of the Marvel Universe...of course that was like 10 years ago. And last thing I remember when I read comics was Cap giving up the serum (having it flushed from his body of something) because he thought that relying on the serum sent the wrong message to kids (like he was a living example of the benefits of steroids or some shit like that).

I agree and I rarely check their site anymore.

...credit for joke to Bronx Cheer.

Here, I'll show you...quick, the next five who want, tell me what the weather's like in your town?

I was only channeling the genius of previous posters, as were you. You see, here at AICN, there is a hive consciousness, a collective mind if you will, and we are all controlled by that diabolical mastermind Harry Knowles! Even when we think we are being contrary, we're doing his bidding.

News you can trust.

screw all of you that dont get waht the cap is really about.. liberals pissed me sometimes

...Ben and Jerry's Stephen Colbert's American Dream and curl up in front of the Colbert Report tonight to hear him put Marvel Comics on notice...maybe they'll even be dead to him. Quesada is probably a slavering godless killing machine of a Bear dressed up to look like a publisher.

Clear skies

Venomy

Cap is really about telling anyone who disagrees with his view that they are a liberal and they can go screw themself?

Exploiting the killing of Captain America as the work of a sleeper cell?

I was the one who promoted the whole "collective" idea back during the repligin' in all, blowing poor Deus Vult's mind with the notion that every other talkbacker except him WAS Harry. Got banned shortly after that...

as a result of the Super Soldier Serum. Come on, dude.

He likes to kick your teeth in and call you names.

<p>with jihadists dancing around his body, burned and dragged through the streets of Baghdad, cuz that's where he would have been, right, as he was a soldier and America is always right, and he would have been 100 percent behind the war ion Iraq...blah blah blah. I never should have gone there.</p> <p>But hey, how about that Venom?!</p>

wrong, are you actually reading the civil war saga? or just giving your opinion of what you think he is?

Marvel was the first comic book company to have the cojones to accept 9/11 into it's continuity, in a breathtaking tribute to the men and women of the rescue teams. <p>It was an issue of Amazing Spider-man (Vol 2 #36 "Black Issue"). Captain America, Thing, Wolverine, Spider-man, etc were on hand helping the firefighters save lives. Even Doctor Doom and Magneto stood in the crowd and looked on with tears of sorrow and rage at what the terrorists did. <p> Many comic book fans hated the issue, but I thought it was beautifully done and completely respectful of all the innocent lives that suffered and were lost because of some political/religious zealots' hate.

I guess that's why I got them mixed up

Cap always does the right thing, regardless of the degree of difficulty or the personal sacrifice. Cap never complains or gives up. Cap is fairminded. Cap gives people second chances, but holds them to high standards. Cap believes in justice and personal responsibility, but not revenge.

...that Ms. Marvel's comments in the Initiative "may not have been what they seem on the surface" and that "Yes, Steve Rogers is dead".

That just seemed a ridiculous conceit. If they had just been left out, it would have sold me.

Haven't read comics in about ten years. Use to collect heaps of them, but got sick of every second comic being a "collectors item" or "limited edition", printed with 4 variant covers (gotta collect them all!) with advertisements on every third page, and costing me $10. Got no idea what Cap's been up to in the past decade, but I imagine it hasn't changed all that much...

he never caved in, fought for what was right, and told the government to f*** off when they were wrong

Yeah that's all cool and stuff - like I said I never minded the character - but he wears the stars and stripes as a costume. So basically, he's wearing the same kind of thing that Apollo Creed wears when he's about to fight Ivan Drago.

<p>I have not read a Captain America comic book since 1976. I have never met him, and should not make any assumptions about the quality of his character. I also should be speaking ill of the dead, or soon to be dead. I should thank him for his service to our country.</p> <p>Cap, can you forgive me?</p> <p>A fellow citizen, Bronx Cheer

Übermensch so while he is still human, he is a genetically engineered human at peak performance all the time.

...as I have none on my keyboard I was forced to write Ubermensch without them.

petty politics, I'm behind him all the way. Especially cuz he's got that big shield.

superheroes clearly didn't do their jobs now - did they? It was flat out retarded to bring fictional characters into it. Doesn't anyone do allegory well anymore?

...kinda like the mortal version of Superman. A symbol for others to aspire to be like. I just couldn't take the guy seriously. Imagine if some dud dressed like him walked up to you. You'd fricken die laughing.

if you saw someone dressed like spider man,superman or batman?

HE'S DARK.

The Originalist one or the Living one?

laughs at batman.. whats your point?

Bastards. Probably having one of those pajama parties.

same as our administration that tragic day

...but if I saw a guy dressed like Captain America my first thought would be that he's an over-zealous sports fan.

Oh, and btw: TEH SILVER SURFER WILL PEE VISHNU'S HEAVENLY FLUIDS OUT ONTO SPIDERGUY WHEN WEBBING HANG DOWN FROM PENIS IN SHOWER.<p>That is all.

these days. But this is getting off-topic. Did Captain America drive a special car?

"WEBBING HANG DOWN" wow.

...Didn't you see Easy Rider...

and Keep Your Venomy-s closer!!<P>Sorry, couldn't resist..and I missed the pics so I'm bored.<P>Any links to the pics on another site?

in real life. What's your point? I would ask Cap for his phone number not laugh at him! :)

...DHAMAKA2007 showed up again recently at the other Spider-Man thread and gave you credit for doing all his dirty work for him.

Hmm, I wonder - if someone were to say that about Venom, would that be racist? On the same note, are all the "Too silver!" notes speciecist?

They can't be mistaken for civilians. That helps them defend the civilian population when bad guys are around. I was wondering, wouldn't it be interesting to have all the heroes dress in regular clothes? That way when KRRISH COMES HE CANNOT FIND THE COWARDLY SPIDER-PEOPLES HIDING FROM RETRIBUTION!!!

Everyone should try it.

gimp in his next film by hiring someone who knows how to light a scene.

a brew, but knowinghim, he would refused, so i would say, you rock dude, make us all proud

what?

They should call him Traction Action Batman.

out if you want them to live up to their reputation, that's all.

On that note sheck out the DJ in this music video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xi08A4I1q4Q Once again be sure to fill any gaps (heh heh heh)

...My keyboard lacks umlauts and now it's drunk!

by the PC police here. Anyway, people who have been around here long enough know that I'm a little on the side of nuts when it comes to things Cap.

Thanks for the link! Neat pics!

those are my favorite all time characters, however, i do enjoy almost all comic book characters, even spider-man sometimes, specially when is wrtitten by j. michael s.

the characters are more iconic and therefore more clear cut in terms of what they represent. When I was younger I liked the more soap opera approach of Marvel and I still think the writing in the late 70s early 80s blows anything they are writing today out of the water, goofy costumes or no.

I'd like to wear a cape myself.

with you everywhere you go, chances are you look like a gimp.

Check out trent.blogspot.com ! I'm looking forward to this so very, very badly.

early bird gets the worm bitches!!! i got mine!

well, Something dire has happened to captain america that may change marvel forever. Or did it? I just don't know based on a line in Civil War The Initiative. Can Cap really be away for that long?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGIfE2vuymI Once more remember to fill those gaps!

Quesada and company killing off Cap is a bullshit publicity stunt designed to boost circulation. I understand that comics are a business and money must be made, but the proper way to do that is through good, authentic story-telling, not whacked out stunts. Peter Parker unmasking is another example of such bullshit. Parker has spent his whole adult life protecting those he loves (Mary Jane, Aunt May) from dozens of insane, murderous enemies. Having Parker unmask is like sending out engraved invitations to those enemies saying "come and kill my loved ones". Parker has never been that stupid. The unmasking is dumb and out of character, and defies logic, both in the fiction, and outside of the fiction, as it aleinates any reader with an ounce or more of brains. Likewise, killing Captain America, especially in such a weak-ass way, is another bullshit stunt designed to boost circulation, and is a slap in the face of fans, from old-school fans to current fans who are smart. Captain America is an icon, and has been a fictional role model for kids for decades. One of my earliest memories is sitting on the floor of my families living room, reading a copy of The Avengers. Marvel comics helped me learn how to read, and helped form the minds of many, many kids. Killing Cap as a blatant publicity stunt is an insult to all real fans everywhere. Poor Joe Simon, co-creator of Captain America with the late, great Jack KIrby, has been quoted to the effect that "we need Captain America now more than ever". He is right. We are in the midst of probably our greatest time of crisis since World War Two. If the people at Marvel are incapable of writing stories that speak to this time and crisis, perhaps they should hand the writing tasks over to writers, not publicity hounds. It is a shame that Joe Simon, now in his nineties, must spend the twilight years of his life witnessing the literal and figurative murder of the great American icon that he and Jack Kirby created together in the era when America rose to to battle with the terrible tyranny of Nazi Germany. The people at Marvel are behaving in a gutless, money-grubbing manner, and I will not buy their comics under this regime. It is a shame.

"alienates any reader", "family's living room", etc. Sorry. I'm pissed off and typing too fast.

totally agree.... screw you marvel, quesada and millar...

http://tinyurl.com/yovzrj along with some other leaked Spidey stuff.

http://tinyurl.com/yovzrj and look through their archive, heaps of cool stuff.

"and Keep Your Venomy-s closer!!" Best statement yet!

That people didn't care about Captain America anymore? That the New Modern World was too complex for the simple ideals he represented? That nobody believes in that sort of "corny old fashioned stuff" nowadays? Then howcome as I picked me way through the Internets I find so many people wanting to be Captain America? Is the new generation too hip? Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_NG7OYGQt0

Even back in that 70's show days, i thought that this guy should be peter parker. He was hot for the redhead ... he was a skinny loser type ... Perfect to play peter!

That people didn't care about Captain America anymore? That the New Modern World was too complex for the simple ideals he represented? That nobody believes in that sort of "corny old fashioned stuff" nowadays? Then howcome as I picked me way through the Internets I find so many people wanting to be Captain America? Is the new generation too hip? Take a look: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_NG7OYGQt0 and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4KUs51mpzo and here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeBBpMUN-A8 See, everybody wants to be Cap!

although the first was incomplete.

Naw...too Venomy!

More or less everyone here agrees that Marvel is crap. I hope the brass over there realizes how utterly impossible it is to get virtually everyone here to agree on one thing. Yet here we are, all agreeing what bullshit it is that Cap is dead. Some of us have different reasons sure, but the thought is the same. I personally think its fine if they kill him off, but not because of Civil War, that dog just will not hunt. If you want to do something big you have to EARN it. I know Quesada, its a nutty concept but its true.

about Cap's death. Lame. Lame. Lame.

Trying to carve out a name for themselves instead of just writing the damn characters. Everybody wants to reinvent the wheel and in the age of the "celebrity" comic book writer, this is what you get. Spectacle over substance, strange when you are writing about superheroes, but true.

America, or at least the Cap of Gruenwald and prior. They'll say "Oh those were great stories, BUT...". They think he's a chump and that his values are for hicks. I'd even bet money on it. They're the kind of people that think Superman needs a mullet and then to be pummelled to death. Marvel has not written anything spectacular in a long time. The Ultimates is garbage compared to Stern's Avengers.

AND SILVER SURFER TAKE BOX OFFICE HOSTAGE. HAHAHA ORDER OF HOSTAGE WITH TWO EGGS. U WILL ALL B CRYING WHEN SHIVA AND VISHNU LAY SMACKDOWN ON ALL SPIDERMANS,.

hahaha. I enjoyed that. The pics are VERY good, I must say. I'll be there (yah, like I was ACTUALLY thinking of not seeing this...). I gotta say this whole CAP thing is pretty hilarious. First, I have no idea what it is you were talking about, but gathered some info by reading through the TBs. Let me get this out of the way. I am DEFINATELY a geek. Not only that, I am a nerd. I have all the stuff going for me. Really, I do. But you know what I think? This CAP discussion makes us all sound like the cliche 'basement 40 yr olds'. Am I wrong? Seriously, like, tell me, cuz I absolutely dont want to sound like, you know, those pissy TBers who dont say anything productive. I just really think this is lame. Anyways....reply if you feel the need.

Seriously.

Don't you feel kind of left out?

It's about killing the idea of what he represents in the context of the Marvel universe. About the way they tell the stories. It's a statement about how they feel about superheroes. And that statement is: I HATE YOU.

I'm sorry, but how does killing Cap mean they hate superheroes? Traditionally beloved characters that are killed and stay dead for any period of time are practically sainted. Even in real life, people who are assassinated are generally viewed as martyrs--which is what'll happen to Cap in the MU now, without doubt. What shows hate for a character or concept is when you see a hero randomly revealed to be less of a hero than you thought. Hal Jordan--DC fucked him up, they tarnished him. But Barry Allen, Mar-Vell (D'oh), even Uncle Ben--they died, and it preserved them. I think Cap fits much more into that category. The idea that Marvel hates superheroes just because they want to show how tough life is for superheroes is backward thinking. You may as well say that Mel Gibson hates Jesus.

I need dates!

Marvel and DC have become too "Hollywood" to me and therefore do not get my money anymore (well, I do buy Vertigo, Icon and Max titles still). I dropped the traditional lines both for good with the whole 52 and Civil War travesties. Hate what's happened to Nightwing and I hate just about everything that's going on in JQ's stable save for Moon Knight. I still think Cap is Ronin but I am not going to pay to find out. Is nothing sacred? Yes I know 52 and Civil War have sold well but I so tire of shock value passing for plot/story. Whoever said above said it, said it right. The old stuff is what matters. The last decade or so has sucked. Just my opinion. Dark Horse has always been my A#1 and still is. Just saying. Joe Q and Dan Dido or whatever his name is can suck my pipe long and hard. I certainly cannot create myself and therefore I am talking out my neck, but Marvel and DC publishers/editors/top brass control too much. If they would just loosen the reins a little we would probably see some stimulating stuff. No pleasing me I guess. I will say it again. Marvel and DC suck/phail. They've taken too many great characters down the wrong path. Too many. My opinions and therefore I am challenging no one. I am a simple man and demand good storytelling for my money. Thanks for reading the rant even though it is off topic. SM3 looks like a win. Fuck the pre-haters.

DONT KILL STEVE. I LIKE STEVE.

OR ILL SHOVE A CRUCIFIX UP JONAHS ASS AND MAKE ABRAHAM BLOW SOLOMON

...maybe he taped his show too early today.

...(sigh)he must take on Marvel over this...He has praised Steve Rogers before, and could only see this move as the work of those who hate America. Tonights show must have been taped early, before he had a chance to hear about this debacle...C'mon Steve don't let me down...tomorrow night's show put Marvel on notice!

...In a way no death of a fictional character has before. When Phoenix died back in '80, when Barry Allen and Kara died in the Crisis, when Spock died in Star Trek II, all those deaths seemed meaningful somehow...and as much as I loved the characters, I still felt detached from them, It was just a story, and one told reasonably well. But this today just angers and upsets me in a way that doesn't make sense. It seems somehow *personal*, maybe because I am a veteren?, maybe because of my own ideals about America...having come to this country when I was seven years old? I don't know, Cap's death hurts in a way Superman's death didn't. And Superman is a much more Iconic character right? Maybe it's because Cap is more human. Maybe it's because unlike all of the other heroes I've mentioned who gave their lives in valient self-sacrifice, who died nobly to save copuntless others, Caps death was dull and meaningless...killed by an assassin. And to have the last thing he saw in life be the only woman he ever truly loved gun him down...that's just sick. Why would his writers be so cruel to him? Couldn't they have come up with a better death at least? At least Bucky got to die in Battle. why not Cap? This upsets me more than it should have...i'm taking it way to personally, it must bring up some kind of unresolved issues or something...I'm going to go to bed now.

instead of entertain us, by screwing up characters or storylines instead of givning us simple yet terrfic stories.. i also blame brian michel bendis for this trend, he pretty much controls behind curtins what goes on on marvel, and the guy is overrated when it comes to writting "epic" storylines.. come on, you know marvel was out of their minds once they unmasked spidy and gave him that lame ass red and gold outfit(another horrible Jq creation)

of the way they offed him. If he is, it could just be they are making a statement with the way he died. Just like they've been making statements with the character since 9/11.

Because all of the good stories already happened, and that's what people want to see on film. They want to see heroes, not whiny post-modern versions of the characters. Marvel is so post-modern, it's almost post-post-modern. I mean, what they did with the Scarlett Witch was ridic. And DC with ID Crisis and Wonder Woman having the biggest nuts in the DCU is double ridic. She's practically not even a woman anymore, she's a Frank Miller nightmare with breasts. The toolboxes they have turned the Big Three into. Thank goodness for the animated series!

In Spiderman 3? So that's who Bruce Campbell is playing! Man, sorry I missed them!

that link was entirely unnecessary.

that he was building up to this and that Millar hates America.

are you being serious? that is dissapointing since he feeds off american culture then

Which, I don't know if he is being sarastic or not, but I don't think Brubaker is a jokey kind of guy.

It's off topic but while we're exchangin bad news. This is the producer of Transformers and the supposed GI Joe film In terms of "G.I. Joe" don't expect that title to stay, but do expect one new character - "Action Man is the equivalent of G.I. Joe internationally pretty much. It's a different character, but pretty much the same idea and his name is Alex Mann. So we're creating a buddy movie between Duke and Alex. That's what we're doing. All the characters will be there and it'll be really fun, but unfortunately our president has put us in a position internationally where it would be very difficult to release a movie called 'G.I. Joe' internationally in a lot of places" What. the fuck. is that all about? A buddy film? Why even fucking bother making a GI Joe film of you have no idea why people would even want to see one, which he clearly doesn't. SOmeone shoot this guy before he kills another classic 80's franchise.

that. Do they think people are going to be fooled by the name? What a maroon.

yeah, dont make the movie, unfortunally is to bad for transformers... one of the biggest tools in hollywood is directing this flick and trust me, that will be an embarrasement for everyone

it's a real pile. There is no familiar characterization in it at all, it's so superficial - like Gremlins but with giant robots.

oh so its a typical michel bay movie, no big surprise there

ninjas fighting on an elevated train. I read those comics as a kid, and the only thing I remember is Snake Eyes goes to visit the blind man who takes away guns, then he fights Stormshadow on the train. We know they both have the same bitchin tattoo, and for the movie that is really all we need to know. I also remember stormshadow escaping from alcatraz by using a garden hose, and I remember Snake-eyes often faking his own death to escape things. Cobra was a mysterious cult with lots of cool masks and weapons. That worked well when not overly explained. There were a bunch of other characters, but I only liked the characters that wore masks(which you aren't allowed to do in Hollywood). I certainly don't remember a buddy movie feel to it. Nothing else matters, as long as the actors have swivel arms.

surprise it takes place before Cobras existence so early in dev. and they've already found a way a screw it up.

No, no, no, no, He's outside looking in.

funny one-liners. I hope they have guest appearances by William Perry and Srg Slaughter.

The entire cast is being done by Afro american Dwarfs except for Marky Mark Wahlberg who will play Duke Houser Full time Srgt part time porn star.

Enjoy.

WTF!?!?!?!!? Just read it on CNN... Joe Simon and Jack Kirby are flipping out of their caskets!!<P> How can they just kill off Cap with a damn Sniper!! <P> If they kill him off, do it appropriatly, last book of the War thing they have right now, he dies to protect something, but in style, with some meaning.. Not a Freaking recreation of a Marky Mark movie (Which ressembles a lot, no, is copied right off of the one Keenen Ivory Wayans did called "Most Wanted" in 1997)! <P> This shows you how uncreative Marvel has become. Everybody know Spidey, they changed the costume, big thing going on about Superhero vs. Superhero.. Blah... I'm happy I stopped collecting these back in the 90's... They've become the worst storytellers ever since Quesada and the Arad took over... <P> Killed Cap.. bastards! <P> Extract from the CNN site - Quesada said he wanted to readers find their own meaning in Cap's end. "There is a lot to be read in there. But I'm not one who is going to tell people, this is what you should read into it, because I could look into it and read several different types of messages," he told CNN. - End quote <P> Which translate into: "I have no clue why we did it.. We just wanted to kill someone off, and sell more books like DC did when they killed Superman. Expect our hero doesn't die to save the world, oh no! None of that crap! We kill him off by a sniper. We have no imagination what can I tell you! Hell after the Spidey movie we decided to give him organic WebShooters in the comics too, because well.. euh... because .. euh... Well, let's just say we like to fuck around with our most precious characters that stood for something for so many years because the movie made millions, so there must be something to it right??" - End of translation. <P> Marvel's dead... No soul into that company anymore. As tacky as Stan Lee is when he talks about comic book heroes, at least he stood by the characters and would not change things around just to sell a book. He got the writers and artists to push themselves to get a good storyline out. not go for the easy way out. "Kill someone! Easy sell!". Oh where are you Stan when we need you! <P> Well, now that Cap is dead, I just hope they don't ressucitate him in two months to sell comics again. They made a decision, hope they live with it and keep Rodgers dead, bringing him back to life would be demeaning to the character, just like trying to bring back Colossus to life after he gave his for the Mutants.. Oh wait.. they did that already didn't they.. Lack of imagination is what keeps this industry alive I guess... <p> The hell with Marvel!

...why people think it's such an insult for Cap to die in much the same way JFK, Martin Luther King, and Gandhi died.

and they want to keep reading his adventures...

I understand *that*. I understand being upset he's dead. But I don't understand why people seem to be upset specifically that he was gunned down by a sniper.

much like those leaders you mentioned. Cut down like nothing...in Cap's case, not saving the world or dying while doing something heroic. I think that's what bugs people.

JFK, MLK, Ghandi, RFK, Lincoln, Harvel Milk, John Lennon, etc. etc. etc. were real people...life isn't scripted...there's no guarantee that anyone will have a "good" death versus a "bad" one...a "heroic" death versus a ""meaningless" one. But because Cap WAS in fact a fictional character...that means there were REAL PEOPLE WHO CONTROLLED HIS FATE. His authors decided to give him this death... instead of the one he deserved, there are actual people to blame here not just "fate", so I intend to blame them...for poor story-telling. As for reading his adventures, I haven't read a Marvel comic in years, and probably never will again at this rate.

I'm sorry the link offended you. i assume you are refering to the HG link? I thought by your "phone number" comment you would get a kick out of the DJ in the clip, as he was kinda hot. It may be possible that you are refering to any one of a bunch of links I have posted here some of which are even more silly...I tend to deal with grief with humour, I'm sorry if any of this has angered you...it was not intentional.

for years, which is why I stopped a long time ago. And they'll just bring him back soon enough...with the shiny foil cover like was mentioned by someone else before. Continuity is a joke anyways, always depending upon that specific writer as to what he chooses to keep/ignore. If they would make a great Cap movie, all would be right.

Yes, because then they would retcon the comic to fit the movie version. Of course if the movie sucks...

It would, of course, take place during WWII. The Invaders dammit!

<br>

...it's set for 2009 release. Brad Pitt will be 46 years old in 2009, he still looks pretty damn hot...but his Dorian Gray like youth has noticeably slipped in the past few months...Angelina would age anybody I guess. He could manage the latter day thawed out world weary Cap, but if this is to take place in WWII (I hope) then he's past the necessary stage of unblemished innocence needed to carry off the part.

...a few months back. The truth is nobody's been cast yet.

So you're saying that because Cap is a fictional character, a "cheap" death that was shared by many of the most lionized and admired leaders in real life is inappropriate? Captain America is supposed to be the ultimate idolized American hero--given the fate of every other ultimate idolized American hero in our history, I can't think of a more meaningful way for him to go. The world kills its heroes, s'just how it is.

Cap wasn't a hero in the same sense as JFK or MLK, he was more like the firemen of 9/11 who sacrificed everything so others might live. That's the sort of death that would have been appropriate for the character. In the "Marvel Universe" there are characters for whom an assassination would fit their character...Professor X for example. Cap is just not the same kind of character.

...they could have crucified him for our sins and it still would have been nothing but a cheap unimaginative stunt to sell more variant covers of some fifty different versions of "replacement" Cap down the line. Unimaginative, unoriginal, dull, stupid, and callow marketeering disguised as story-telling. Fuck those guys, fuck those miserable, slimy, greedy bastards in every filthy orifice they have with a chainsaw!

I kid you not. Total bimbo-movie: all looks no brains.

I think that's ridiculous, personally. The guy is the living, breathing emblem of freedom in the MU. Yes, he's more combat-oriented than, say, Gandhi. Yes, the way we, and no doubt he, would've liked to see him go is sacrificing himself in the fight for freedom. But the fact is, he was a guy who stood up there draped in the American flag and gave the nation hope. He was someone who inspired others. He was someone who represented something. And that's what gets you assassinated. I think it's the most fitting way he could have died, honestly. Again, not that I'm happy he's dead, but I can't deny how well it fits the character and what he means.<br>As for Marvel being money-grubbing, idea-less blahblah. Maybe, I'm pretty picky about which comics I read. I will say I've never much liked Millar. But I'll also say that Daredevil has enjoyed perhaps the most consistently great run of comics--through several different writers--I've ever seen since Quesada took over. Bendis and Maleev's Daredevil is up there with Miller's DD, Waid's Flash, and Claremont's X-Men for all-time great runs. There's good and bad in the Marvel stable--and yes, they do big stories, and yes that's largley sales-driven. But the fact is, comic sales suck, and they've sucked for far longer than Quesada's been there. They've got to do something. As for all this chrome-laced-variant-cover BS, maybe I haven't been paying attention lately, but I'd swear I haven't seen a 5-dollar premium chrome-mirror-variant-gatefold blah-blah-blah comic since about 1998. Seems like a dated criticism to me.

Why have i never been able to catch one of these pictures before it gets pulled...somebody help me out and send me a WORKING link?? the link before had some pictures that didn't work....help me out buds

the link is working....oh yeah, if the mouth gets bigger bigger as the movie progresses then does that mean venom is in the movie longer? ;) .......Raimi wins

I only remember a time with those foil/variant covers, so I guess I'm stuck back in the early 90's. The whole Avengers storyline of killing the Kree Supreme Intelligence by the Black Knight sticks in my mind with all of those type of covers.<p>As for the assassination perspective, I do see your viewpoint. But let me ask you this, what has been happening in the Captain America universe? Is he universally loved by the common folk? I remember he setup a hotline a long time ago so that he could help all of America. Is that still the case? Would anyone care if he was assassinated with that Civil War stuff going on? Cap's main villains have always tried to destroy him ideologically, trying to strip away his heart, soul, and beliefs in freedom. So I can see your assassination point of view if the American public loves him.

I had posted an earlier angry response to you that didn't show up...Hopefully this post will. I don't buy your argument. Leaders are not assassinated because they inspire hope. They are assassinated because some evil bastard who is fucked in the head shoots them. A psychopath can become obssessed with a political leader, a popular singer, or just anybody on the street. This is dirty, grubby reality. Mythology is supposed to be grander than that, bigger than that, larger-than-life. This is spitting in the face of the gods.

That was, in my opinion, the low point of the Avengers. I had no itnerest in Avengers in the early 90s at all.<br><br> As for Cap being loved--yeah, he was. And in the Civil War he was essentially the General Lee of the rebelling heroes. How can you have a story called "Civil War" without one of the opposing leaders being assassinated? Heh. In any case, he was loved by the populace of the Marvel Universe, and when he went Rogue he did so because he believed the law stood in opposition to freedom and became a rebel leader. When he died, he was still a symbol and a leader.

I just read the NY Times Article and saw the panel. He had his hands cuffed behind his back...no fucking way can this be compared to JFK, MLK, etc. zb.brox I assume you actually paid money and read this shit? What is wrong with your soul, man?

He was handcuffed because he turned himself in to the opposing forces to prevent bloodshed among civilians. He was a hero opposing an unjust law, assassinated before his trial. You know that MLK, Gandhi, and Nelson Mandella were all arrested, and Mandella imprisoned for years, right?

...for Nelson Mandela, who is still alive, to be assassinated. There is nothing glorious or heroic in being assassinated. Even evil dictators get assassinated. There's actually a statue in Fresno, CA of Telirian the assassin who shot Talat Pasha the architect of the Armenian Genocide, and there are placques in Munich to the (unfortunately) unsucessful assassin who tried to kill Hitler at the Burgerbraukeller.

...imprisoned or bound in handcuffs. The only assassination I can think off that matches this is the shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald by Jack Ruby, hardly someone who compares to Captain America.

http://tinyurl.com/364a4t http://stuffdaddy.blogspot.com

Motherfucker used to build rec centers, shoot hoops with inner city kids, rebuild slums, and STILL have time to hang with Cap and battle supervillains. Where was he when Cap needed his homey to have his back?

...without actually reading this piece of crap ( I will be shot myself before I buy or read this garbage) I have discovered that Falcon and Bucky (?) (!) are hot on the trail of Cap's killers. Apparently they retconed Bucky's death some time back...nothing is sacred to these motherfuckers. Earlier somebody posted that Simon and Kirby would be spinning in their caskets... of course Simon is actually still alive...but this shit will probably kill him.

Captain America isn't real. Because I think it's appropriate for them to tell a story where Cap dies senselessly, I therefore find it appropriate to senselessly kill real people? Yeah, no. This is a story, and if the story they're telling is the story of how a good and heroic man was arrested and killed for what he believed in, then more power to them. That shit happens all the time in history, and it's a damn shame. And, no, Gandhi and King weren't killed while in cuffs--so you'd be okay with Cap dying if he'd been arrested, convicted, served his sentence, then got shot while giving a speech about it? They can't just cut to the chase? Come on.

...THAT"S BEEN MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT!!! This isn't dirty, grubby, shades of gray, morally ambiguous, cynical, post-post-post modern, socially relevant, randomly violent, ultimately meaningless, soulessly despairing, suicidally depressing real fucking life!!! This is comic books, this is four-colour wonderland, 21st century mythology, legend, fable, archytype, "how it should be", once upon a time, happily ever after, World without End, Glory Hallelluliah! You either are a shill for marvel's hack editors or are that long forgotten horror come back 'round again. The dreaded Marvel Zombie! Yes a heartless, souless, walking corpse content to slurp up whatever vile filth The House of No Ideas Left vomits out upon the ground!

"Leaders are not assassinated because they inspire hope." Not the only reason, but I think that has played a part of it. Do you not think that JFK, MLK inspired hope in people? As in the hope that change would occur due to their actions/political power? <p>zb.brox - In that context of the events that led to Cap being whacked, I can see it. I still think it was a stupid idea to have him killed off (for now), but I will give you the fact that he was standing up against 'the establishment', and in fact did die for something. I'm sure Cap will be back with Bucky before you know it. Stupid.

the idea of killing/bringing back Cap is stupid. Just wanted to clarify.

This whole thing has become way to emotional. I'm really fucking sick over this... I don't need some lame-ass apologist for shit-hack Brubaker coming around with half-assed excuses on how "meaningful" this fucked-up publicity stunt is. Go away and suck Quesada's dick. I'm only still hanging around this TB to see if superninja, who I respect, has read my apology for offending him, which I did not mean to do.

I'm sorry if my emotional overreactions to Zb.brox have left you with the wrong impression that I do not believe MLK, JFK, Ghandi, etc. inspired hope. Yes they did, and that hope is still alive. But, that is not why they are dead. They are dead because some whack-job killed them. Some mentally unbalanced sick fuck thought the world would be better without them. This happened in spite of the hope they inspired in good people who continue working in their names today, because this world is a sad and senseless place. That's why we invent legends to make sense of it. That's why we shouldn't just crumple up and throw out what legends we still have. Which is what they have done, and have been doing over at Marvel for quite some time. I'm going to go lie down now, I'm actually in pain over this.

Those are fake muscles on Topher, right? There's no way he's that pumped. Or if he is, it certainly ain't proportionate, because the other non-makeup shots reveal his relatively normal forearms. I'm not making fun--he's my build, but just sayin', cuz Venom is a whole lot of muscle. Between this and the extended clips from the other day, I'm starting to cheadle my pants. I think I'll take that whole week in May off work and just see this every day. They'll probably catch me stroking my shishkabob in the theater like Pee Wee.

Okay, dude, you need to chill out. I haven't read the damn books--like I said, I don't read too many comics these days--and I don't care if you like them. For all I know, the writing sucks and the storytelling sucks. Like I said, I don't like Millar, I'll believe it. But I take issue with the idea that Captain America shouldn't be killed in the way that real world heroes are killed. In the real world, leaders who inspire too much hope, whose movement is too powerful and strikes too deep a cord with the people, are shot down by people who are afraid of change. If you want your comics to be all giggles, I'm sorry, but I like comics better when they actually say something rather than being pure idyllic fantasy.

for the last 15 yrs or so. As far as I am concerned, that's not 'real' Marvel, and those stories have no bearing on what those characters are. Oh, and don't worry about it. I've enjoyed the back and forth and differing opinions.<p>Abom, just watched the first one last night again, and I'll be throwing in the 2nd one in again at some point. I'll probably watch both of them again a couple more times to get me all cheadled up with venomy goodness for the third one.

I don't necesarilly agree it was stupid to kill him. The problem is, with serialized storytelling in a continuous universe, you can't tell all the stories you'd like to tell. There are probably hundreds of great stories revolving around the death of Captain America that could be told. Unfortunately, they can only tell one, and by telling that one they remove the possibility of all the other great Captain America stories. Which is why it's natural for them to kill characters and bring them back every other month. It fucks up your trust in the company and your faith in the continuity, and it's stupid. But, how else are these stories gonna get told? This is part of the reason the best comics are almost inevitably ones with limited runs. (That and the quality control of a single creative team).

Pitt may like to be Cap because now that he's a father he's said he actually wants to play mature parts. But he never seems sincere in more classic roles - he has Peter Pan syndrome like Cruise as far as I'm concerned. Aaron Eckhart, baby. That's a man and when he commits to a part he comes across as extremely sincere whether you love or hate the character. That is the most important thing about casting Cap - he has to seem totally sincere, like Superman.

I could totally see him as Cap, especially if they want to make it a good, character-driven movie, not just an action whollop.

into such a jerk. RIP Marvel! Maybe someday the real Marvel U will return instead of the MSM version we have now.

them try to make a character piece because unless it's set in WWII, they will use it to make the sort of political statement they've been making with the character since 9/11. And I doubt anyone wants to see Cap as a handwringer for 2 hours. I actually have an idea for a trilogy set in WWII, then the late 60s, then the late 80s, reflecting on how Cap manages to stay the same regardless of the way the culture changes, even though it's troubling to him. And how we need him more than ever, and all that stuff, like Simon said (Simon not being dead yet and all). And I think people would like to see that movie, but Hollywood would not want to make it.

are still burning. I'm also female, but thanks for trying to hook me up with a gay dj. You shouldn't let the Cap thing bug you too much. They haven't really been writing Cap since Gruenwald stopped.

...thanks.

it's an act. But nevertheless it was silly of me to post that.

...I'm well aware that I'm taking this too hard, in an almost non-rational way, that makes it difficult for me to discuss without getting really pissed off, or posting inane links. I really am going to go lie down now. Sorry for the ruckass, peace y'all.

That would be awesome, actually. See him in the 40s as the golden boy, in the 60s trying to maintain his identity at a time when America was losing hers, and the 80s during the Iran-Contra scandal, the cold war, the me-generation, post-watergate, and all the other indications that America was starting to rot from the inside out. And see Cap still there, still doing what he believes in, etc. It'd be a nice change from superhero movies that all seem to take place totally removed from any real societal context. Most superhero movies, there's no unvierse outside of the hero's home city.

I am down with good stories and am no longer a strict continuity freak. Obviously both of the big houses have run out of enough good ideas to publish a monthly with the amount of product they have out there. I would rather get excellent stories in spurts and pay more to have a really good story with fantastic art, delivered when they promised, than have to put up with the serialized monthly stuff. And these writers are not half as good as they think they are. They have no imagination, you could populate their damn universe by watching CNN and then slapping costumes on top of it. They do not appreciate mythology and it shows. Even Rucka's Wonder Woman, which people admired for its attention to detail, was more like a technical exercise than a great myth being told.

they are being funny the intention is to be funny in a certain way for sure.

He represents an ideal, not the reality. Still, Hollywood would never make that kind of film because Cap represents sort of a fixed ideal and we can't have any of that. He'll need some teen angst and hand wringing before they're done with him.

Personally, I like Daredevil when it's a gritty, street-level crime story. I certainly like the mythic element to him, but he's not Batman or Superman, he should be real, living, breathing human being Matt Murdock first and spooky fearless ninja crimefighter Daredevil second. Fantastic Four, in my opinion, should have the kind of child-like wonder at the marvel of creation, almost a teeny-bopper scifi feel, before any sort of "mythic" feeling. Yes, Captain America should be mythic. But he's interesting because, unlike, say, Superman, he's a mythic character forced to interact with the real world. With the possible exceptions of Thor, Hulk, Cap, and the Silver Surfer, I don't think Marvel has ever been the place to look for comics that parade mythology and heroes who are, to one degree or another, demigods sent from on high to perform a vital function on the earth. That's more DCs domain.

Well, it does.

sense that Star Wars is mythology. Luke Skywalker is no god, you can relate to him as a real person. It is an understanding that when you write these stories, you are talking about ideals and philosophies, and not just writing your own personal sitcom about the character even if it conflicts with the established character. Then you are changing the definition of what it means to be X, or you are simply disregarding any meaning associated with the character in favor of your stupid CNN "pulled from the headlines" story. That said, I have come to prefer DC for the reason they follow mythology more closely and allow less of the real world into their stories. Marvel used to do this as well, it was not so ridiculously obvious as it is today. What really bothers me is that they are passing this off as innovative when it is just glorifying a lack of imagination.

the mediocrity of t.v. into the comic book medium and we're supposed to think it's awesome because they hired a celebrity writer.

One creative team and less time to fuck up who and what the characters are/represent.

on AICN. Seriously.

I can't believe AICN hasn't blown up yet...

I don't think it's mediocre to try and write a story that plays off of real world events. What's mediocre is when characters are distorted out of proportion to try and fit the story a writer wants to tell, rather than allowing the events of the story to be determined by how characters react to events. So, I'd think rather than fans of Cap, who seems to have stayed fairly true to character during Civil War, fans of Iron Man should be really disturbed. <BR><BR> On the mythology point, I understood what you meant, perhaps my wording was misleadingly dramatic: When I think of a character that's got a strong mythology, I think of them as having a specific purpose or set of skills at which they're more or less the best. Batman is a mythic character because he's the world's greatest detective, because he fulfills a strong thematic function (i.e., a man whose pure will and determination allow him to do things even superhumans can't), and he's more or less static. The Hulk is much the same way--or he was for twenty years or so, anyway. Now he's kinda all over the map. However, I don't think that's a necessary component of being a superhero. Yes, superheros need to have some allegorical elements, but I don't think that means they can't also be realistic stories told about the real world. Marvel's positioning for 40 years has been, basically, real, vulnerable heroes with realistic problems. Rent checks, alcoholism, miscarriages, cancer, discrimination. That's been the Marvel universe for decades, and I'm glad it's there.

When it becomes so much like reality - what's the point? The characters don't even act heroic anymore. Some people who read Civil War would argue Cap has acted out of character - Iron Man has without a doubt. Marvel has distorted the characters out of proportion to fit in the context of real world events they want to comment on.

If they're twisting the characters to fit the story, that's shoddy storytelling. But that's a different issue than writing that's drawn from life. The level of realism in any story should depend, in my opinion, entirley on the purpose of the story, and what serves the story best. What's the point of Civil War? I don't know, I haven't read it, I've only heard about it. But I'm not going to condemn it simply for being too true-to-life. I like the conflict between superheroes and reality, because the two are hard to reconcile.

virtue when you are telling superhero stories. If they do, their should be consequences, not a "this is the way things are now" or they cease to be heroes. However, virtue is now routinely mocked and considered unsophisticated. Realizing, of course, this is my personal opinion, but that I'm also right. :)

character for awhile now. Cap for sure. They were guilty of writing boring stories before 9/11, but post-9/11, they were guilty of manipulating the character so they could comment on real world events without a doubt.

IMagine my surprise when it turned out Aunt May never died, and that the person Peter adn family knew and loved and climaxed in one of the msot touching moments in Spidey's life turned outy to be some actress Norman Osbourne hired... THAT IS BULLSHIT!!!! I don't know how it turned out as I stopped reading Spidey some years back... not because I wanted to, but I was running out of place to keep comics... and I'm tired of never ending stories I guess, so I turned to manga...

But whose idea of virtue? If one hero is fighting the good fight for God and one is doing so to preserve the law and another is doing so for the good of all humanity, can only one of them really be a superhero? And what's so virtuous about behaving with virtue when virtue comes easy to you? Flawed human beings doing their best to make a difference in the face of a corrupt world is much more interesting than, say, 99% of Superman stories. Trust me, I'm not a fan of the Millar/Morrison tactic of making every superhero secretly a leatherdaddy who was abused by their step-father and diddle by a nun a Sunday school. But heroes should be capable of making stupid decisions, taking the wrong side of an argument, and succumbing to human weaknesses and still be heroes.

say to remain heroes, there have to be consequences for those things or it ceases to be virtuous. I don't mind the lows as long as there are highs. And sure, there are differences in the various worldviews between what is virtuous, but I would argue that there is a basic foundation shared by humanity in regards to how we treat others. The basis for that is law and ultimately the discussion is how you wield power to enforce it.

We're not, too my knowledge, talking about anyone going on a killing spree. Most people recognize that, say, the Punisher is more of a psychotic than a hero. In Civil War, for instance, the difference is focused on whether it's reasonable to give up freedom for security, and whether it's better to go along with an unjust law in the hopes of using the system to moderate it or to totally rebel. Having not read the story and seen specifics of how characters act (for all I know Tony cries for the head of Captain America and drinks his blood once he's dead), it doesn't seem to me that any character needs to sacrifice what makes them a hero to be on either side of that divide.

read Civil War, only followed a little leading up to it. The characters were acting out of character long before Civil War, it was an editorial choice by Marvel obviously.

The point about Cap dying this way is that he is a SOLDIER, a WARRIOR, not a PACIFIST like MLK or Ghandi. Yes, Cap is a fictional character, but he is an iconic one who represents the American Spirit, to kids and adults who grew up with the character. Killing Cap is bad enough, but for him to die senselessly and not in combat defending America just adds fuel to the fire. It is a bullshit publicity stunt that shows contempt for the character and the fans. Oh, and Brad Pitt, who is a decent guy and decent actor, would just be wrong for Cap. Aaron Eckhart, Paul Walker, Jeffery Nordling are all better choices for Cap. Last, any Cap movie must be set in the World War Two era, at least for the first half of the movie, preferably the entire film.

If Cap died at all in the comics, he should have gone out fighting, just to clarify my previous point.

I mean, if you're talking about, say, Morrison's X-Men, then absolutely. That was bullshit. But I don't think that was part of a coherent editorial strategy by Marvel so much as a desire to get respected, big-name writers on board. And a lot of those big-name writers are people who made it big in Vertigo or self-published comics. Hardly surprising the way some superhero comics have gone as a result.

What was Cap first, soldier or leader? "Captain" can suggest either, but the costume, the shield, and the reluctance to kill enemies points toward the latter.

comic book doesn't mean you understand superheroes. Bendis clearly doesn't - who cares if he writes snappy dialogue? He writes every character like The Bendis. It's like the Being John Malkovitch scene in the restaurant.

soldier and the characterization of him as a good-hearted but naive grunt which became pervasive made me ill. It's cynical and condescending. But regardless of all that, it was just the icing on the stank cake to end his career that way when he was such an optimistic character to begin with. But then they destroyed him long before they took him out with a headshot. I'm sure it was well-crafted in the way Bru wrote it, but who cares at this point? Maybe it was a mercy killing as others have suggested. Hopefully Spidey and Iron-Man will be next.

Rick Moranis IS Captain America.

or Gandhi. That's a little too worshipful of the character, completely besides the point, much much like SuperSavior Returns. Ick, ick, ick.

First, Bendis does *great* Superhero work. His Daredevil and his Ultimate Spider-Man are some of the best stuff Marvel's done. If you don't like New Avengers, that's one thing, but it's just overly flippant to say every character sounds the same. He writes DD, Wolverine, and Spider-Man together, and you don't need to even look at the pictures to know who's talking. The characters are on. Maybe he's not the best guy for the unabashed over-the-top SUPER superheroes like the Avengers, but to just ignore the good work he does is a sign of prejudice toward him more than insight.<br><br>Second, I didn't say writing an indie or Vertigo book made you a good superhero writer. I was just challenging the idea you posed that Marvel made some editorial decision to write superhero books without real heroes in. That's not the case. They simply hired the writers with the best reps, thinking this would lead to sales and quality. If it didn't, so be it, sad for them. But it's not some anti-Superhero agenda, it's an attempt to draw talent form outside the superhero framework, because regurgitating the same type of story for decades leads to stagnant quality and stagnant sales. <BR><BR> Third, Cap shouldn't be compared to JFK, MLK, and Gandhi? I think that's a little too worshipful of them. They were heroes, sure, but they were still people. They weren't saints. Maybe that's something Marvel should focus on--that when someone is assassinated, there's tendency to view them as an unassaillable martyr. Cap was mythic before, but now that he's been violently cut down? I wouldn't be surprised to see Cap-oriented cults and militias in the MU. Sounds like an interesting story, to me.

disagree with you about his level of talent and CERTAINLY he is lacking in imagination when it comes to superheroics. I really don't like most of the current talent which is why I don't read comic books anymore. Geoff Johns and Dan Slott I still count as good writers. Roping in what I refer to as "celebrity" writers is a fallout of Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, etc., still effecting comics to this day. Getting people who really hate supeheroes and think it's cool to deconstruct them to write superheroes. Alan Moore has paid penance with his ABC line. Millar is still banished. And agreed about JFK, MLK, etc. If you read up on them they're definitely not superheroes. It cheapens their lives to compare a superhero to them, quite frankly.

to real people. To draw a comparison between Superman and Messiah was embarassing for the filmmakers of Superman Returns. The same thing goes for MLK and Captain America, I really hope they don't try to go there. It's like watching people who have saved the planet 100 times looking at the smoldering remains of the WTC and crying a tear and it's supposed to move me. Please. It makes me want to smash something that these writers are so full of themselves.

by the Bendii versus people who have taste. :D

See, I think we have to stop here, because I have endless contempt for Geoff Johns given how he manhandled the Flash. Sigh. ;) But I think it's silly to say that Bendis and others have contempt for superheroes, anymore than Stan Lee did when he helped to create Spider-Man, the Hulk, and the X-Men. They were new types of heroes, too--including the Hulk, of all people, barely heroic at all in the early years. As for comparing superheroes to real people... I'm fine with it. I *like* to see writers, of superheroes or anything else, try to make sense of the socio-political context in which they live. How it's done is everything.

and when heroes in contemporary mythology start equivocating and suffering from second-guessing, you don't have what people seek from mythology. What you end up with is a Woody Allen story with violence. Action is a key component of heroic deeds. Certainly there's inward reflection, but once a course is decided upon, it's time to act. (snore)

http://tinyurl.com/364a4t http://stuffdaddy.blogspot.com

But it was good in the beginning, great, even. And his Hawkman run, and his JSA, of course. You'll never get me to admit Bendis is better at anything other than writing punchy dialogue. We are like fire and ice, like oil and water! Tragic, really. :D

No more navel gazing from my superheroes, please!

Torso

his superhero work. :D

Like that new Diddy song, perhaps?

first, they came for the X-Men.

im coming in late to the game so ill just comment on all the above <P> i have to say it fuckn sucks that Captain America went out like he did...the greatest soldier ever gets sniped...fuckn bullshit if u ask me. i guess marvel doesnt care about the character enough to give him a fitting end. if they wanted to kill him for some reason, he should have gone out in civil war...think it would have been more poetic for him to go out instead of the disappinting end we got...yeah cap surrenders...wow..brav-fucking-o marvel. <P> i enjoyed civil war for the most part except for the lame finale like i mentioned above. i dont get how you have all those superheroes fighting and who dies? a C-list hero and 4 D-list villains who havnt been seen since the bronze age of comics. one question...is spidey back in a black costume now? and i agree, fuckn kill Stark for turning into a grade A asshole. <P> just got back from the midnite show for 300 and i for one fucking loved it. it had some great energy and was loaded with bad-assery

...you expanded to say he was good for nothing but snappy dialogue, I figured maybe you hadn't read some of his stuff that *rules*. :) <br><br> And I haven't heard the new Diddy, I'm afraid, not a big fan of rap and hip-hop. More a fan of music. (I kid. Mostly. ;))

I've been constantly prematurely ejaculating like Jim with Nadia...

...took Ironic Man's side in the Cival War and thus instead of putting Marvel on notice, basically said that Cap's death is what happens when you cross the Government. Colbert obviously wasn't told that Cap *had turned himself in to the authorities, and was going to trial* when he was shot. That makes for a whole different ballgame, even in Colbert's ultra-jingoist "truthyness" ... hopefully this will come to his attention and flocks of eagles will swoop down and tear apart the evil Godless Bears that have usurped the Mighty Marvel Bullpen... (actually I think Colbert would like to be the new Captain America himself, unless of course he actually has been the Real Captain America all along)

...and because I tend to deal with my grief through humour: CAPTAIN AMERICA WILL BE 2009'S LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE!!!

and hip-hop, but sometimes the beat grabs you and there is no turning back. Besides, it sounds like Diddy is copying Outkast anyway.

....of the various popular rapper sout there, Diddy's voice itself generally annoys me less than many of them. So perhaps, if I ever hear this song, I'll have a positive opinion. Until then, hardrock-industrial-prog-metal for me.

All the threat warning colors. Be mindful of bears.

Anyone know if these images are anywhere else?