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‘I Have These Nightmares!!’
‘Maelstrom’ Sweeps Into SciFi!!
BATTLESTAR GALACTICA 3.17!!
I am – Hercules!!
“I can’t sleep. I have these nightmares.”
“About the Cylon. The one who held you captive. He sees the truth about your destiny. He’s coming for you. Soon.”
On the heels of “Dirty Hands,” last week’s moving and engrossing post-apocalypse class-warfare episode of “Battlestar Galactica,” we get “Maelstrom,” the big, top-secret, Starbuck-centric, franchise-rocking installment to which everybody’s been alluding for months.
Here’s what the Chicago Tribune said about “Maelstrom”:
“[Series mastermind Ronald D.] Moore adds that after the March 4 episode airs, the name of a major cast member will disappear from the show’s opening credits. They won’t say whether Sackhoff’s name is the one that goes missing. But they do make clear that what happens to Starbuck points the way to a major shift in the show’s direction. ‘It’s a fundamental and permanent change in the makeup of the show’s cast and of the show itself and how the show operates and what the show is about. It’s a very dramatic change of direction,’ Moore says.”
Read all of the Trib’s long Jan. 8 interview with Moore here.
10 p.m. Sunday. SciFi.
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Readers Talkback
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That's all I got.
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What other major character can they afford to lose?
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I've been hearing about this for months and Moore apparently has something major planned for this episode.
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It *can't* be the end of her. But I've never been so psyched, like I said in another TB, then I am for tonight.
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It's 8 am on a sunday and I'm noy first!!
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I hope I am not going to be too gutted by goes!!!
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March 4, 2007, 7:59 a.m. CST
Nice chunky cylon heavy episode. Just what we need
by Col. Tigh-Fighter
I hope we get Starbuck back at some point. <p>So Say We All
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Laura, the presidents mistress, "worst president ever" self-interested Cylon ass gets the boot. <p> Yes she was a worse president than baltar. She is more selfinterested ( The babies blood cured her but NO ONE ELSE was allowed to benefit from it!), continually placing her needs above that of the fleet. <p> If she wasn't a Cylon hy did Hera's blood save her? If she isn't self interested then why wasn't Hera's blood or the antibodies now in Laura used to treat others? <p> Die evil robobitch die!
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in a population of under 50k, how many examples of cancer will there be? besides which, its a baby, not much blood to go round, they were keeping her secret so couldnt keep topping up refills, and most of all, the american healthcare system is based upon the idea of wealth and power equalling privilege and health, if you think if isnt ordinary for someone like a president to get a treatment unavailable to others, then thats cute. anyway, i look forward to this episode. i have a feeling they built it up too much though. seems to me tv people cant avoid doing that.
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notice how they've worked her in over the past two episodes. She will be revealed as one of the final five, if not tonite, then soon. She is also probably responsible for the demise of starbuck, maybe a training mission with the newbie goes bad. we shall see...
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...Which was shown in that flashback episode of Galactica 80. That was a cool episode I must admit. But then again it could be Lee that perishes....
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Eventhough I've enjoyed the last three eps, I still miss the frakkin cylons.
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Looking forward to tonight's episode. Last week was great and I hope the buzz and build-up given towards "Maelstrom" pays off big.<P>"JUMP!"
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I mean she shifts moral views whenever it suits her. It is part of her charm, but it is also a serious flaw in her.
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but I mean GOD DAMN ... I hate the Sunday time slot. I didn't get around to watching the last ep until last night. Put the fucking thing back to Fridays for those of us who have fucking jobs already, assholes.
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Uh, I think we should do a double session next week.
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Looks like Starbuck might go bye bye. All signs point to her, but is Galactica ballsy enough to throw us a "Lost" style curve with a "24" style big death? I'll have to see it to believe it. So far this season Galactica has worked hard to get the series back where it was at the end of S2. But here's the thing to remember. This show has multiple strong female characters. They could afford to let Starbuck bite it and focus more on Caprica Six integrating into the humans next season. I'd actually prefer this, because we haven't seen much of her since she arrived aboard Galactica.
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whether a character dies or something else drastic happens. It gets old to see shows throw out a show and suddenly a few episodes later all is well. If they kill of Starbuck then she should remain dead. If someone popular turns out to be a Cylon then keep it that way. I admit that I was disappointed when the President was cured of her cancer. I thought that Mary McDonell was pulling in some fantastic work. Hated to see the character go but I knew it simply make the storyline continue. No. Instead some freaky Cylon cure was thrown out. Seriously, I hope that the writers and producers stick to their whatever we see on screen tonight.
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The Colonials think she's dead but some higher beings have her. They're the Cylon final five and also the Colonial five prophets. It's going to be revealed that the humans and Cylons are linked much closer than thought (the humans only thought they created the Cylons) and Hera is the first step towards reunification. (this of course is all conjecture on my part)
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http://tinyurl.com/yv8sjh
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I might just have to tune out if there is ever peace between the humans and cylons. More importantly I found something on that board that made me laugh out loud. This is priceless... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/punkn/bsg/HALOHELO2.jpg
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Broken link on the first one, let me try again... http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/punkn/bsg/HALOHELO2.jpg
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It won't frakkin work. Just go look at the photo on the damn scifi board. Screw you photobucket.com. I hope YOU turn out to be the cylon.
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In the last episode of Galactica 1980, we learn that the original Starbuck was marooned on a planet with only a Cylon for company, until one of the angels from the Ship of Lights showed up and declared Starbuck had some special destiny. Info about subsequent scripts that were planned but not filmed is that Starbuck was going to become one of the Ship-of-Lights angel-beings himself and show up to help the Galacticans on Earth. Whatever Ron Moore has planned for the new Starbuck will no doubt differ in detail from the above, but I'm willing to bet it's at least inspired by the above. (And won't be the first time that he's borrowed from Galactica 1980. After all, giving the Cylons human form was first introduced -- very badly, needless to say -- in G80. And the cylon/human hybrid baby may have been modeled on G80's angel/human hybrid baby, Dr. Zee -- which was incidentally said to be Starbuck's, albeit not biologically.) A related point: in the original series it was revealed that the Cylons had some past connection with the humans' history/mythology -- namely that Count Iblis had, centuries ago, provided the original voice for the Cylons' Imperious Leader. Once again details are different here, but I keep remembering Sharon's saying "we know more about your religion than you do" (and why the hell have none of the colonials asked her to elaborate??!?), and D'Anna asking "could there be a connection between your gods and our God?" as well as the fact that the final five Cylons are somehow connected with the humans' Eye of Jupiter. Seems to me that all this is Moore's variation on the Iblis idea.
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instead of "ckues"
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in the Galactica 80 episode, the angel lady says Starbuck has a special destiny... and then takes off and leaves him alone and marooned to die.<br> <br> She did him a real solid.
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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v127/punkn/bsg/HALOHELO2.jpg
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OK, it does the same thing when I paste it in! Those spaces appear. Weird. Well, copy the link, REMOVE the space between "alb" and "ums" as well as the space between "j" and "pg" and then it works.
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She didn't maroon him. This link summarizes the script of the unflimed G80 sequel that tells what originally was supposed to happen to Starbuck: http://www.blast.net/hart/WheelOfFire.htm (If mysterious spaces appear when I paste that link, just remove them)
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Tonight, she goes in.<p>Oh, and Laura is one hot PILF.
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First, you have to eliminate Helo, the human half of the human/Cylon hybrid. Then, accounting for the fact that there are 12 Cylons and 12 Olympian gods, there's some interesting possibilities. Aphrodite has a lot in common with Six, Apollo (god of healing) could be the black Cylon "doctor", Lucy Lawless (the General) could be Ares, Sharon's new call sign is Athena, the PR guy could be Hermes (?), Callum Keith Rennie (Starbuck's "homemaker") as Demeter, and Dean Stockwell as Poseidon (for no reason). That leaves Saul or Ellen Tigh for Dionysus, Prez and Adama for Zeus & Hera, Starbuck as Artemis, and Tyrol as Hephaestus. I think I'm probably wrong
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No one said she was for sure going to die. I think she flies into the Froot Loop vortex and is heard from for a looooong time.
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Will it be a literal or figurative whirlpool, I wonder? Cant imagine its a giant swirly thing in space. Too Star Trek
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a time warp.<br> <br> Uh, we should schedule a double session for next week.
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I've got a buddy who works as a PA on the series. According to inside sources, the Final Five are already cast, and will appear on the last episode this season. They are: Boomer (Grace Park), Madeline Albright, MacCauley Culkin, Bea Arthur, and Hulk Hogan. We've come to unite humanity, BROTHER.
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(a) Starbuck's inner turmoil or (b) her "eye of Jupiter" drawing, which looks much like a maelstrom. It is probably alliterative, not literal.
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How much you bet the cast change is a minor one; it seems they like to change for change sake. They keep having these 'fundamentsl changes', they're going to come right back to where they started. Can't they just tell a linear story and stop trying to show how dramatic their 'writing' is?
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Once Starbuck and Apollo headed down the "forget our loyal spouses, I really love you instead" road, their characters became expendable in my eyes. I really wish Starbuck had been the one to die instead of Kat, because Kat would have been a natural successor to Starbuck as the fleet's hotshot pilot.
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Ok what-ev, but are they going to stick with the changes or just hit the reset button next season like they did with most of the changes from the New Caprica arc? This season went downhill fast after the Collaborators episode (with the exception of the Baltar on the basestar scenes). The midseason cliffhanger was a pale imitation of the Pegasus cliffhanger in Season 2, and with the exception of Baltar and Lucy Lawless in the temple at the end, nothing interesting happened. Baltar's drug trip was somewhat interesting but the last three episodes have been pure filler. And worst of all this season they killed Kat!!! :( They better turn this show around or I am not watching next season.
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will miss the hotness that is Katee Sackhoff. I've no doubt she's gonna knock this ep out of the park - but it's gonna be rough not having her on the rest of the season. Which means we won't see her again until what? October? ARGH!
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The trapped in the airlock was hardly suspenseful and the whole labor strike thing was completely unnecessary. All it made me think was that the Cylons might be the good guys and have it right. Let's get back to the main story please.
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Damn, i wanted to know if I should prepare to be disappointed or not.
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...they really have a good story after all this hype. For months now we've been hearing about Maelstrom and 'something big' happening to Starbuck. Whether she dies, disappears or whatever the show really needs to come up with something for us.<p> Like many of the previous posters I'm a bit tired of being jerked around by this (and other) series' lead up advertising. Although to be fair, while Sci-Fi has never really suggested that Starbuck would be killed; Eick and Moore *have* sort of dangled the "hugeness" of what is supposed to happen in Maelstrom. If they don't deliver with tonight's episode... that loud crashing sound you'll hear could be most of the remaining fan base hopping off the bandwagon.
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I've been pretty critical about the last three episodes but I'm taking to day to veg out in front of the tv and catch up listening to Ron Moore's commentary tracks. In them he seems to be very aware that those episodes have sucked. So at least they are aware that these episodes haven't worked. Hopefully that means that they will learn from them and why they sucked.
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but Seelix fills the void very nicely...<p>Seriously, though, after the apparent "holding pattern" episodes of late, it will be nice to get back on track. <p>I just wish SciFi would pull this back into a one-hour-earlier timeslot. Sunday is fine, but they are showing it too late. I would almost guarantee a bump in ratings if they did so. People who gotta work on Monday mornings would be more inclined to watch it live on Sunday, instead of recording it or watching the Monday repeat.
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perhaps Starbuck'll enter the Maelstrom or whatever it is and we'll get several Starbuck-centric episodes back to back. Sure, there'll be brief parts with the rest of the cast, you know, "what happened to Starbuck, where's Starbuck, how can we save Starbuck?" But it'll be mostly Starbuck's adventures in the 4th Dimension. One can only hope they kill Roslyn.
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the only one who enjoyed it, and miles better than The Woman King. A little over 4 1/2 hours away, and I can't wait. :)
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Dirty Hands was the best episode since Exodus Part II. BY FAR. Helo vs. Evil Doctor was a shitty episode, but Dirty Hands completely stomped dick.
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In the interview, Moore says, "I can tell you this: After 'Maelstrom,' if you watch the main titles of 'Battlestar Galactica,' a prominent name will suddenly be missing." <br><br>So what if the name missing is that of an actor? People live giving out misleading spoilers. What if something crazy happens an the name missing is "Galactica?" <br><br>That's it, I'm predicting that Battlestar Galactica gets blow up!
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It finally delivered on the promise of showing us that the Galactica is not the only ship in the fleet. I agree, best since the New Caprica episodes.
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<nt>
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......along with Dirk Benedict, the original black Boomer, the robot dog, and Twiki from Buck Rodgers.
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It's so obvious!
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That Starbuck's ship get's torn apart along with her while Lee gets to witness her ragged body floating around in space. Maybe she gets too close to some type "whirlpool" in space.
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That'd be a great twist ... the Battlestar is destroyed but Starbuck gets to Earth, and Earth sends out a fleet to rescue the remainder.
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1. a large, powerful, or violent whirlpool. <p> 2. a restless, disordered, or tumultuous state of affairs: the maelstrom of early morning traffic.<p> 3. (initial capital letter) a famous hazardous whirlpool off the NW coast of Norway. <p> [Origin: 1550–60 for def. 3; early Dutch: maelstroom, now sp. maalstroom, repr. mal(en) to grind + stroom stream. <p> —Synonyms 2. tumult, pandemonium, bedlam.<p> Popularized as a synonym for "whirlpool" c.1841.
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I think it must be Roslin that pops it tonight. Look at the rapport that her and Adama have increased over the past few weeks. Just when you think those two are going to get down and dirty, she gets taken away. Classic typical love story.
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At this point, one guess is as good as another. It could be something as crazy as that... but then what do they call the show? <p> It's like if Friends had come back for an 11th season with none of the original cast members... they'd have had to call it something like... "Bunch of Whiny Dumb-Asses in A Coffee Shop"... <p> I don't know... take the Battlestar out of the show though... whatta ya got?... "Bunch of Whiny Dumb-Asses Running From Robots?"
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Maybe Earth could send out a fleet of Mars Rovers or Nasa Shuttles. Maybe Hubble could photograph the shit out of them. That would show the cylons!!
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Earth could be even more technologically advanced than the colonies. They could send out the Enterprise-F (oh, that'd be a sweet trick)
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I actually can't wait for this episode... haven't been able to say that for a while... probably since October 6th...
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The last like 3 or 4 episodes have been brutal for me. I know some people probably enjoyed them, but the only good thing in those last episodes in my opinion was the fact that Gaius has written some Mein Kampf equivalent, and the changing of his voice last week.
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That it was used up, so everybody went to a new system. The central planets formed an Alliance ...
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Maelstrom = Black Hole It looks, from the pics, that the Maelstrom could be an active black hole with an accreting disc. If it has a nearby companion star, it would be actively "eating", and an accretion disc would form as the infalling gas heats up.
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Lol, i'm only messing and that would be a nice crossover. BSG:1980 was over here in the UK a few weeks back and i managed to catch it. Words cannot describe how bad it is. One of the most disturbing things i've seen.
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When he changed his voice...it gave me chills. And as usual excellent acting from James Callis. And tritium, I've thought about it being a black hole. I'm just trying to figure out what that would mean. Are they going to get all sci-fi on us and take us into one? But I like your idea that it could just be creating some sort of dangerous side effect.
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As the others have said, you are not alone. "Dirty Hands" was a fantastic episode; one of the best of the season. And while I enjoyed the Helo-centric episode, the previous 2 shows have been a little awkward...especially the Adama/ex-wife story. That just felt rushed and poorly executed. Apparently, according the pod-cast, Ron Moore felt the same way.
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Ok, this theory is dependent on Starbuck actually turning out to be a cylon, but here it is. Remember how Helo was asking Starbuck how she could have drawn that eye of Jupiter when that temple was thousands (or maybe he said one thousand) years old? Well, what if the cylons actually predate the humans? What if humans didn't create cylons, but rather, a race of cylons came before the humans? What if they even created humanity. Maybe the final five were the original cylons, and after humanity had its first war with the centurian cylons and the centurian cylons set out to find their own planet, the original cylons found them and developed the 7 other flesh models? Make any sense? (P.S. screw you if you don't think it does.)
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When his voice changed, he sounded just like a typical yorkshire man. It's a really odd thing to hear that sort of voice in an american show. You only usually hear three types: A really bad Manchester accent, a cockney accent or a posh accent
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I see where you're going with this. I think I've read a similar idea elsewhere that could be described as the "Divine Intervention Theory".<P>Basically, the humans of the 12 Colonies created the Cylons (i.e. the tin can robots). But at some point after the first war, the Cylons had some "help" in the evolution department from a mysterious source. It could be that the 12 models are all based on previously living human beings that have somehow been integrated into the Cylon technology. How and by whom becomes anyone's guess...
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http://tinyurl.com/yqo2ro<P>Love how he inadvertently mentions my screenname. ;^)
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Maybe all the ads I keep seeing for 'Drive'. Anyway, yeah, if Earth needs to come to the rescue, then they need to be at least the same tech level as the colonists.
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(Adama could've cut the episode in half by acting in character ... heck, he even apologized for being written poorly), I did like Adama's Anniversary episode. While the airlock sequence was kinda unnecessary (and yes, I know it's supposed to be analagous to Adama's marraige), it actually comes out better in light of the following episode (which I definitely enjoyed).
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chrth - the Adama/ex-wife/airlock episode definitely plays better in lieu of "Dirty Hands". And I did enjoy seeing Helo get some recognition. I just think that episode would have played better had it immediately followed his actions regarding the Cylon virus.<P>Xiphos - Seelix is pretty damn money! You just gotta love sexy, short-haired Viper jocks.
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Makes me wonder ... oh yes it does ...
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That is the entire appeal of BSG. Perhaps the most perfect ending is a shot of Earth to end the series. Whatever, scenario they present with Earth humans will disappoint people.
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but a little too obvious. It would be better if they brought back Gary Coleman to bring back the magic he showed as Hieronymous Fox - the ruler of the cylons.
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Ellington. Armstrong. Parker. Davis. and Coltrane. D'Anna was apologizing because she was an Elvis Presley devotee'.
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...and is recast - that's why Katee Sackhoff is done for the season - and she will be replaced by... DIRK BENEDICT!
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Dirk is the Cylon God (Dirklon for short)!
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My response was to the post below it.
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I've always supported the theory of ancient Cylons, but not as creators of humanity.<P>Your theory would extend the origins of the Cylons much farther in time than most theories. You've provided something else to consider with respect to who the Lords of Kobol could be. Your theory would also explain In-Head-Six and In-Head-Baltar.
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Yeah, something like that. I haven't read that theory you're talking about, this one is just off the top of my head based on Helo asking Starbuck that question. But I can't think of anything that about turn the series on its ear more than that. There's so much talk of cylons being the "children of humanity", what if the humans are really the "children of the cylons." (the five) I can't think of another (good) explanation for how Thrace could see something like that and draw it unless she was either connected to some collective consciousness or had been around a long time.
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Thanks. Yeah, I think its a good explanation. But who knows. I just hope they come up with some plausible explanation for inner-Baltar and inner-Six and for Starbuck's drawings.
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Since Caprica is a Cylon, and they do the whole 'context' thing. Inner-Six, though ...
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Starbuck having foreknowledge of the maelstrom fits in with an old theory of mine about Baltar which could apply to Starbuck. I posted before that Baltar could be a copy of the original human creator of the ancient Cylons who ruled on Kobol.<P>Kara could be a copy of one of the original "priests" from Kobol - one who also had knowledge of Earth. Her hidden priest roots would also explain why Starbuck was the one to secure the arrow of Athena in Season One (also another link to "All this has happened before...").<P>Anyhow, I'm looking forward to major happenings tonight.
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Cylons are shown to envision only the physical surroundings of their choice during a "projection" - not people - so I think the jury is still out on that one.
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BTW, In-Head Baltar is STILL the best character on this show. In fact, I want a spinoff for him.
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He IS franchise material. If nothing else, at least he deserves his own major story arc.
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they got caught in the paint...
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Inner-Baltar rules. As much as I love Inner-Six, Inner-Baltar is fantastic.
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A little strange, but I think I figured it out.
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I think Kara is one of the five.
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If there isn't a "gotcha" at the end, this will be the lamest episode ever.
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This episode is lamer than the Charlie Baby stealing episode...Oops wrong show
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Ayyyyyyyyy!!! Let's all get some ice cream! Now that's what I call a sticky situation! RIP Battlestar.
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how this constitutes any major shift in the show's direction...
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The friggin' Cylon of Christmas Past, a cliched mother/daughter thing, and a 'splosion? Color me a little underwhelmed.
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Ok. So. Hmmm. Alright. Then. I guess.
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If Starbuck isn't one of the five (which really, to have her reappear in the season cliffhanger is really the only reason to kill her) then I say good.<br><br>Since New Caprica they have done everything they could to make Starbuck unlikeable and as far as I am concerned, they succeeded. They made me hate her character and I'm glad that the stupid love quadrangle is over once and for all.
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For another non-action filler episode as Lee tries to decide between boxers and briefs
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That's it? Starbuck buys the farm? BFD! I think we've all been taken for a ride, ladies and gentlemen. That was a terrible episode, and the payoff was non-existent. I call bullshit.
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One of my most beloved shows is now on its arc over the shark. Never though this would happen. They better have had a DAMN good reason for tonight's ep.
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Well, it was an episode, I'll say that. I mean I was interested, it wasn't a bad episode ... I don't want to say 'pointless' per se, because I'm sure at some point we'll find out the point. Hmm.<p> Well, next week is Baltar heavy. WOOHOO!<p> PS: She was gripping the eject awful tight.
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another hour wasted. that was boring. 15 minutes worth of show stretched out over 60. this show is going downhill and no where fast. thank god Heroes is not on Sundays here in Canada.
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Ok so I was wrong. Frack off. You guys who keep lableing these episodes as "fillers" miss the point of the series. It isn't about humans v cylons. It is about the characters. This was one of the best. Herc is right, again.
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see her ass in those undies at the beginning of the episode? NICE!!!!!!
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The standalone episodes usually disinterest me, and this one, while interesting, I guess, didn't even explain what the connection between Starbuck and that picture was, did it? She just died. Also, I don't see how she could be a cylon since she has a mother, and we've seen her as a child. Cylons wouldn't be born from people. I don't know, I enjoyed "Downloaded" a lot, and I liked how season 3 started, but again, maybe this isn't the show for me.
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You know how sometimes a series has a great episode that resolves a character's fate, but at the same time, opens up a bunch of mind-burning new questions? Yeah, this wasn't one those. For all the hype this episode got, geez. So we find out Starbuck has mommy issues and Leobenon in her head isn't really Leobenon, and there was really a raider I guess since it looked like Lee see it, or maybe there wasn't, but no one seemed really concerned about it, and oh yeah, next week everything is cool and Lee is Matlock for Baltar. Great.
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[SPOILER] an hour of ho-hum flashbacks and hallucinations as we learn that Starbuck had an abusive and hateful mother, with Starbuck apparently pretty much just comitting suicide by flying into a hurricane and exploding. It was only 2 episodes ago that we learnt Apollo had a spiteful and abusive mother. Are they really repeating themselves this quickly? And we couldnt have Starbuck go out in a more plot-centric episode, fighting Cylons or on the verge of uncovering some great secret? No, she sits around freaking out and then offs herself. For an episode with arguably Galactica's biggest character death thus far, it was completely fucking lame. lets hope the show picks up next week: "Prelude to the Trial of Baltar"
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I wanted to feel for Kara and feel like this was moving the show somewhere. The closest to meaningful drama was the 12 seconds of Adama at the end. Great scene. The rest of the show could have been packed into 1 minute and felt more surprising. I was hoping for a "Spock dies in the first 10 minutes" kind of misdirection. Instead I got ...worst...death?...ever.
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that should be "thank go heroes is NOW on Sundays here in Canada."
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i devoured the dvd's last summer, but this season has bored me to death. the opening episodes on new caprica were great, but since then it's just meandered with no real direction and tonight they just killed off my favorite character (who'd been handled horribly all season anyway). not looking likely i'll be back for season 4.
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Stop griping, people. Another fantastic episode from Moore, Eick and co.
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March 4, 2007, 10:07 p.m. CST
Also, failing to have her name in the opening credits..
by DanielKurland
tended to relieve any tension in the episode.
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"did she have her hand on the eject panel and was there a shot right after lee's pov that showed the cylon raider? yes."<p> I guess the question is, where does she think she's going, and why?
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RDM made this episode sound like the second coming..expectations were way up. Would've been ok if just kept his mouth shut.
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There is no way they just killed her off after all of the foreshadowing they did. Starbuck will return in some fashion.
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Ok, so know we're supposed to spend the next three episodes wondering when Kara will re-appear as the StarChild and help the Cylon and Human fleets find Earth together in peace. But really, The white light at the end? c'mon, just show the ship and that dammed awful noise it made...
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All the visions and higher purpose bs in the episode make me think she will be back but in what fashion - finding earth - being one of the five, otherwise, all of it would have all been meaningless.
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So this episode sucked, and I say that as someone who doesn't normally say that. I'm not a chronic complainer, but this? We didn't find out anything. We don't even know Starbuck died. In fact, it makes more sense that she lived and ends up taking that Raider from the Cylon and flying it back to Galactica at the end. *Sigh*.
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Valid point. Had I known nothing going in, I still wouldn't have been terribly impressed with the episode, but it wouldn't have had as much negative impact on me either.
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March 4, 2007, 10:13 p.m. CST
Starbuck will come back. Maybe not as Katee Sackhoff.
by FluffyUnbound
Sackhoff might not be re-signed for Season 4, but this episode is obviously a set up for some crazy shit to be done with the character. All the Oracle and Leoben dialogue points to it.
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Good God, seems like half of this board would be right at home bitching and moaning with the housewives that watch Days of Our Lives and General Hospital.
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Too much navel gazing for my taste this episode. I'm curious to see what it all means, but for the moment Kara's death isn't that franchise-shaking at all. Although I am curious if the thing that apparently isn't Leoben after all is related in any form to the Number Six "angel." (I still like season 3 better than season 2!)
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This episode was completely David Bowman flying into Jupiter. RDM couldn't resist.
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Thats it?!?! All this foreshadowing and mystical mumbo jumbo and she just... dies?!? It was a suicide really, considering she did nothing to save herself.
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About three seasons too late, unfortunately.
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Had her hand on the ejection handle, maybe she ejected right before the explosion?
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Alfre Woodward turns to Adama and says "You've broken all your toys..." Does anyone think Dad is gonna hold Lee responsible? He did put her back in that cockpit, making him responsible for her expensive suicide...
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On the other hand, I feel like my girlfriend just said 'I can't fuck, I have my period' ... but instead of saying 'I can give you a blowjob instead', she decided to go home.<p> 4000 geek points to whomever gets the reference.
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The fact she was gripping the eject switch and Lee saw the raider means that wasnt an hallucination. So for all we know she either died or was rescued by the raider. Id prefer an honest spiritual angle to the show than a simple rescue... Leobon saying he'd make her see tween life and death seems to say she is a cylon as D'Anna was the one to indulge in that particular cylon issue (either her visions of leobon are true or she is having cylon paranoia a la Baltar as well). Im wondering tho about the origins of the cylons now as maybe something other than mere AI development by humans 50 years previously led to the cylons. Is that 'Caprica' spinoff still in the works? Me thinks cylons were probably some secret alien tech reverse engineered by humans. Making cylons true ancient overlords. Might explain the segregation of the final five from the other 7 models...
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Bucky ejected, and is on that Raider. More fun with Lebowen, is my guess.<p>Gotta shout out for Vipers. Love those old school Vipers in the sky.
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That was disappointing.
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Try this out for speed..... the Lords of Kobol were humans who created sentient machine in their own image. The two races lived in peace for a time until some cataclysm forced Kobol to be abandoned. The sentient machines left their "Gods" behind and settled worlds that later became known as the Twelve colonies. Over time these machines forgot that they were machine and became to believe that their makers were mythical Gods. Later on, when these machines created the Cylons history started to repeat itself, perhaps awakening some dormant code that laid inactive since fleeing Kobol. The Cylons, after studying the DNA of their makers soon discovered that their "Gods" were machines just like themselves and used that DNA to re-create the original humanform models manufactured on Kobol so long ago. Now.... what about Earth? We know that the Thirtieth colony left thousands of years before Kobol was abandoned and the Twelve colonies were established. Maybe they are the original Lords of Kobol, the true humans that evolved on Kobol and were forced to flee when their machines began to think for themselves. If that is the case then the fleet might not be in for such a warm welcome if they ever find Earth.
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are going to end up being Cylongs. Both of the Oracles that we've seen so far (Amanda Plummer, tonight's Oracle) know way, way to much about what other people have seen, heard, or been told. There's just no other credible explanation without the show having to investigate the seemingly paranormal powers of the Oracles. It would be an intresting, albeit weird, turn if the Lords of Kobol actually are real. They tried that in the original BSG and it was just fucked up and cheesy.
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I had no problem with the show. In fact, I call season 3 the show's best season yet. I like the stand-alones. But I really don't get what the point of this was. Starbuck is one of my favorite characters in a show crowded with favorite characters, and if this is really how the character goes out, that is really lame. I definitely don't want Starbuck to turn out to be a Cylon, but I'm really hoping there's something more here than what it seems. This really was unsatisfying. I can't wait for RDM to put up his weekly podcast and finally hear what he has to say now that the episode has aired.
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Why wouldn't the Oracles have paranormal powers? You do realize they're following scriptural texts written 4000 years ago that they can't possibly have gotten hold of, right?
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OK... maybe my expectations were a bit too high after 3 episodes of filler (even though I enjoyed the doctor one and last week's somewhat, because it actually showed us something new about the fleet). So, I expected this week to be full of plot progression. Sadly, it did not deliver. I doubt Starbuck is dead...as others said she was gripping the eject and Lee seemed to see the raider as well... I think. This could have been a much more interesting episode, wish we could have learned the origin of the drawing but I guess that's something for another day. Whatever. I'll watch next week because really, what else is there on Sunday nights at 10?
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"Cylons are going to end up being Oracles" is what that first sentence should have read.
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find out something, be something, meet their destiny? I'm sure one of y'all remember.
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...now they quote Leoben. That's one big change.<P>Leoben (or rather In-Head Leoben) was a bitter enemy, now he is the warm and fuzzy, angel of mercy. There's another big turn.
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March 4, 2007, 10:38 p.m. CST
"their following Scriptual texts written 4000 years ago
by deathstar73
If they never got a hold of them then how are they following them?
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I'm not the BSG expert that I'm sure some of you are, so I'll grant that maybe I missed direct contradictory evidence...but is it possible that Starbuck is herself a Hybrid? 'Between' life and death, human and Cylon?
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I.E. the one the Oracle was simul-quoting? I couldn't remember.<p> NoHubris: Remember, Leoben is the most spiritual of the Cylons ... maybe he reads the Chronicles as well, and they were quoting him quoting them?
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This will all pay off later. Of course there was a purpose for this episode (other than killing off Starbuck). All will be known next season.
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Yeah, I don't know guys. After watching it, I do think this episode was built up too much. The one thing I just flat out don't get: why did she think she had to die? Is it simply because Leobon frakked with her head so much she couldn't take it anymore??? Have I missed something here?<P>Also:<P>A) she did have her hand on the ejection handle. Apollo gave a negative on a chute but...perhaps that was because he couldn't go beyond the hard deck. (If she did eject, was she expecting to be rescued by the heavy Raider?)<P>B) It appeared to me that Apollo saw the Raider...at least that's what the engine exhaust looked like. Can't really be sure without a replay.<P>C) Apollo and the bridge crew's reaction were the best things about this episode. I loved the facial expressions on Adama, Tigh, & Helo.<P>All in all, I'm not really sure what to think about this. Frak.
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following them? "<p> Aye, there's the rub! The scriptural texts detail the 13th Colony's journey, but since they haven't had contact since they all departed way back when, how could the other 12 colonies have the scriptures? Are they something the Oracles said? Something discovered? See, these are the questions I'd like to see explored every now and then.
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Even if Starbuck did eject and is aboard the Cylon Raider, at least I won't have to deal with her until October or so. One down, Apollo to go...
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Hadn't thought of that possibility.
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Starbuck once flew a Cylon ship ... hmmmmmmm
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Sure sounds like she is done with the show.... and kinda pissed http://trekweb.com/articles/2007/03/04/Katee-Sackhoff-Feels-Under-Used-in.shtml
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It's not about being dense (although I can't speak for everybody)
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This has all happened before and it will happen again?
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And he is also the one who believes that the Hybrid's ramblings have significant (perhaps prescient) meaning.
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Lots of new handles in the ol' BSG TB, tonight.
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Again, I'd really like for them to explore it. But as far as I can tell, not one single character -- not even the skeptics like Tyrol -- have commented on this.
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I think the problem is we were expecting some degree of payoff with her disappearance, but instead we only got more LOST-like story arc questions.
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http://trekweb.com/articles/2007/03/04/Katee-Sackhoff-Feels-Under-Used-in.shtml
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I guess a bump in ratings will show if it was because of tonight's show (or not).
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A major character bites the bullet, one of my faves I have to admit. Curious to see what direction the show will take now. Yeah, I was a bit dissapointed there wasn't more of a payoff, but maybe they're saving it for another time? I also didn't notice her name wasn't in the credits. I kinda make it a point not to look at the credits while the show was starting, kinda like what I did when the X-Files was on. Sometimes credits contain spoilers if you look hard enough.
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For whatever reason this site makes those idiotic spaces in long url's, go to tinyurl and then post the link.
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Leoben is a definitive link to the Hybrid.
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What the frak was that?!?!
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Well, hopefully they'll have some creative way to tie together humanity, the Cylons, their spirituality and religion, and their history. My guess is that Leoben is going to end up grabbing Starbuck because of all of the humans they've encountered her spirit is the most wild and unpredicitable which is something in the Cylon makeup that they seem to lack. When the Lucy Lawless Cylon started acting individually and impulsively her model was "boxed" by the others to prevent it.
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The clear signal about her future return is the scene at her mother's beside where her mom assures Kara she is up to the task concerning that thing she is expected to do (the only reason for mom to be in the episode IMO).<P>Enter hand on ejection handle/Lee spotting the Raider.
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http://tinyurl.com/2uvyjl<br><br>the site splits up long urls because the website software is so crappy that long urls break the width of the talkbacks. So their solution, rather than fix the problem, is to break up urls so they will wrap around and not break the margins.
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She never fit into the series anyway. She will be a final 5 Cylon for sure. But it will be nice to see her off the show for awhile anyway. This ep did suck on the whole. Next week looks like we are back to true drama with the trial of Baltar and Lady in Red Cylon. I am always impressed with the special effects in the vipers. It's too bad this show is not heavy action like the 80's show. But I am still hooked. Maybe the prequel show will be more action packed, who knows? It's pretty funny that Dirk B is on a Sci-fi movie next week. It is like a victory dance for Dirk since he hated the idea of a ball less Starbuck.
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just go to trekweb.com and there it is the lead story. She really seems like she is done forever with Galactica. Gilles Nuytens: You have a contract for 5 years with Galactica I believe, but there are rumors about you not coming back in season 4. I assume that is false rumor? Katee Sackhoff: I cannot answer that question due to confidentiality. All I can say is that when I read ep. 16. I was shocked to say the least. Gilles Nuytens: You had long hair during all your life but you had to cut it for the show, how did you react when you learned that you had to cut it and how was it to get it back, even if it was a wig, in the last episode of season 2? Katee Sackhoff: I know this sounds so ridiculous... but I cried when they cut it. Grace and I were sharing a room at boot camp and I got up in the middle of the night to see if I could still put it back in these twisty bobby pin things I used to do. I barely could with so much hairspray I couldn't stand too close to flame! Lol It was great to have it back for a little while in season 2 and 3. All I will say is I will never cut it again for Battlestar... Gilles Nuytens: Are you happy with the character developement of Starbuck so far? Katee Sackhoff: I'm thrilled with my character. However I did feel under used in season 3. I kept getting phone calls from people asking if the producers were mad at me. Trust me at one point my mind went to that assumption. Gilles Nuytens: Season 3 is very dark, at least from what we have seen so far, do you already know what direction the show is going to take next year? Katee Sackhoff: I have not given Battlestar a thought for awhile. Focusing on feature work. Gilles Nuytens: You said in another interview that you would love to play as yourself in "The Office", have you been approached about it since then? Katee Sackhoff: No. Would still love to. I'm such a fan of the show. Gilles Nuytens: Kara has been drawing mysterious symbols we can see in "The Eye Of Jupiter", some believe she is the choosen one or even one of the Final Five! What are your feelings about it? Katee Sackhoff: I'd like to say I have some feelings about it. I love where the writers have taken Kara and I trust they have done what's right and most interesting for the show. Gilles Nuytens: After 3 seasons, has the show changed your life in any way? Katee Sackhoff: Not really. I had a guy break into my house and had to move. Does that count. That's a change for the bad though. Gilles Nuytens: We have seen a very complicated relationship between the "anders-kara-lee-dualla" characters, is that a storyline you enjoyed doing because of all the various 'love triangles'? Katee Sackhoff: I actually hate the triangle. I think it's ridiculous. I wish she would just be with one of them and call it a day. Haha. But then that wouldn't be dramatic now would it.
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I don't know. It didn't strike me that she was too pissed about the show. I can't imagine that any actress would be thrilled with reading the script where their character appears to bite it. Done with the show? Maybe. But it seems pretty unlikely that they would just write her out just like that. Starbuck is an essential character to the BSG universe, and if she doesn't return as a lead character, she probably comes back in a guest role.
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Just sayin'. Random goddess myth introduced in the middle of Starbuck's "you've got a destiny" eulogy? "Aurora... the morningstar who brings the dawn... (or something)?" And doesn't Starbuck have wings tattooed on her arms? All of this has happened before and all of this will happen again? The Gods of Kobol religion is based on the myths of the people who played through the last cycle of these events, and it's all happening again.
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The show hasn't really jumped the shark...it just kind of walked up to a beached shark and is standing on a fin.
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Could she have ejected. And a cylon raider picked her up?
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...but to say those of us that wanted more are missing the point is a bit harsh. We were told this episode would shake things up, but will next week really be different? Starbuck has given us very little, save for a tedious love triangle this season and there were no higher implications to her death hinted at. We got flashbacks and poof, she's gone. I needed at least 1 small bone to really be "shaken up". Maybe someone not privy to the action reacting to a feeling when Starbuck went boom, like Ben when Alderran blew. A disturbance in the Cylon "force". Leoben / Ben? Come on give us something!
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NoHubris: "The clear signal about her future return..." - I think I agree. Although FluffyUnbound has an interesting notion = how will she return?<P>The biggest mistake the writers made this season? Making Starbuck's character so abrasive (some in this TB appear to actually "hate" her) that by the time they got around to this episode, her loss doesn't seem to carry much weight.
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On it's own, this episode was a great character piece and I trust TPTB have a purpose for her death. But I'm open to possibly being wrong and that this was just their way of getting rid of an unhappy actress. In which case I do question the point of this kind of death, if indeed she will never be returning to the show. Really wish I didnt read that stupid interview.
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"The biggest mistake the writers made this season? Making Starbuck's character so abrasive (some in this TB appear to actually "hate" her) that by the time they got around to this episode, her loss doesn't seem to carry much weight." You read my mind like an imagainary six.
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Even though I may not care about the Starbuck character as much as I used to, seeing the loss through both Adamas kinda worked for me. Olmos' scene at the end was very moving.
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I know you guys read this so let me write this down while my feelings are fresh.<br> <br> Although you never asked for the passion and respect of your fans, I have never felt more taken for granted as a viewer than I did tonight after anticipating and watching this episode. <br> The entire series has been touting Starbuck's "Destiny."<br> <br> The entire episode touted her "Destiny."<br> <br> And nothing happened. There was no resolution. If you are a viewer, checking the internet is not a requirement to enjoy a show. You don't need to be aware that "this will make sense later."<br> <br> It didn't make sense today.<br> <br> It says a lot about your accomplishments that I actually feel UPSET about how much of a let down the show was tonight.<br> <br> Your relationship with your viewers is yours to treat as you wish and it always has been. But I can say that after being a tremendous supporter and fan for a long time, you lost a lot of my trust after today...
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1. Apollo did see a Raider veer off as Bucky flew into sight.<p>2. She was in the cockpit as her Viper blew up.<p>Looks like it's Cylon city for Kara.
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Yeah, I just caught the replay. Apollo definitely has a visual on Starbuck AND the Raider. Looked like he was trying to make sense of her chatter, too. I wonder if any of that will be discussed by Adama & Co.<P>If she's dead and then turns out to be a Cylon...I suppose the upside would be that her new body will be void of the tattoos.<P>Did anyone else notice the obvious foreshadowing with the Galactica's hallway lights when she was handing Adama the Aurora figure?
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but that Aurora figure had some serious camel toe going on. Intentional? I think so.
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Kara's going to go all wil wheaton on us.
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I'm tired of mentally deranged characters. She turned into an unlikeable freak a long time ago and I hope she never comes back. Kill off some more! There are so may characters deserving of death.
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So I dunno why this is such a surprise. Oh wait, it's not. At the core of it all, this show really is a season by season glorified remake of the original Galactica, and that's what makes it so wonderful.
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"Now THAT is an exit." Probably the best utterance of a line of dialog on any medium anywhere.
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Is it confusing bold writing with writing that is arbitrary and capricious? Challenging your viewers versus poking them in the eye?<br> <br> I'm still ranting about this episode...
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When in-head Leoben said this to Kara, was this a reference to what D'Anna was trying to do? I wonder. And too all the whiners out there, this was a setup episode. Before they reveal her 'destiny' beyond this life, they had to deal with her actual life. I think the stuff in this ep was significant for her character because, for all her brash, death-defying behavior, she was always afraid of death and the unknown. Here, she finally faces it down and lets go. Obviously, we haven't seen the last of her. And sorry, Kai, your 'Whedon' references are a bit of a stretch and don't work. I just don't see the similarity. If you ever actually watched his shows (instead of constantly bitching about them in other talkbacks - gee, I remember when someone used to complain about people bringing up Whedon in BSG talkbacks. Now, who was that? Oh yeah, it was you!). Anyway, Joss' shows were usually a perfect balance between standalones and story arcs. In fact, if it wasn't for Buffy (and X-Files), this whole season long story arc thing wouldn't be so popular today (especially in scifi fantasy shows). And Jane's co-written ep last week was one of the best this season, in my opinion. So eat it.
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And you're making a lot of excuses.<br> <br> I'm a huge fan of this show and there is just no excuse for this episode.
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Ok...The raider was there so that Kara could be transfered back to another body...Xena Cylon saw one of the final 5 before she was boxed and appologised to it (KARA) because she had beaten the crap out of her in the "Retrieve the arrow" EP.
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Hoping it wasn't true, I really wanted a little more of a grand exit if she's a toaster. Apollo FOR SURE saw the raider though.
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"That was so dumb!! Her destiny was to commit suicide?!?! WTF?!?!"<p> Come on. Her destiny was to fly into the maelstrom, which will lead her to some major revelation. I think she's almost DEFINITELY a cylon, seeing as how she just exploded, but we won't really know for a while, will we? <p> Starbuck has been abrasive this year but it's hard to see her blow up like that and not at least care a little, if you've been following the show the whole time. Either way, she'll definitely be back. There's far too much foreshadowed with her destiny (which, for the love of god, was not simply to die for nothing). <p> I would have liked the final moment of the episode her waking up in goo and greeted by that cylon who's in love with her, but I guess they want us to wonder about her for a while. If we don't see her by the finale I'll be absolutely shocked.<P> Overall I enjoyed the ep, and I think it's going to payoff bigtime later on.
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You know the ones who talk about the future and what not? <p> I think she is.
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If she was really a cyclon, why waste her time at that baby factory in the first place? Oh and Badger's gotta eat I know, I'm going to hell for that...
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I didn't like this. Boooooo!!! Then again, I'm sure there's a grand plan involved..... I hope. If they killed her off just to "shake up" the show I won't be a happy camper.
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that interview. I got no impression that she was upset and distancing herself from the show. She said she was shocked at ep 16, which is understandable.
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Ok, I cant freeze frame since my DVR isnt that advanced, but did we just watch Starbuck die? Did she get picked up by the raider, was she IN it when it blew? Dont quite get the Firefly reference chrth made, and bringing up the loss of my favorite show after that is just like getting a papercut on my tongue and then sucking a lemon. SOMEONE tell me WTF just happened. Fernwick
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Since In-head Leoben seemed to be an angel of some kind, and since he was bringing Kara to a sort of higher plane (perhaps) I immediately thought of the original BSG episode where the devil effectively shows up in the form of Count Iblis but the glowing white lights in the sky try to protect the Galactica. So maybe little glowy white ball Starbuck will start tailing along with them giving them hints on bad things to avoid - then they wouldn't need Sackoff anymore would they. In all seriousness though, I wonder if this is actually moving the show into some kind of more metaphysical sphere because of all the life/death stuff, and Moore's pleas that this episode will redirect the whole show.
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...definitely fits into my Hybrid Theory, but as for tonight:<p>Starbuck said to him "you're not Leoben" and he replied "I never said I was" Interesting, and most surprising thing of the show, I thought. Was "Leoben" a Final Fiver taking on an appearance of Leoben? hmmmmm.<p>Seemed like Apollo definitely saw the Raider, too. He seemed a little startled by it, even, if only momentarily.<p>PATIENCE everyone: this was not a filler ep, and they have stated openly that this is the point at which the show changes direction. We can't see around the corner yet, but give it time. This didn't come out of nowhere, they have been setting this up since Leoben first spoke to Kara a long time ago. Trust and Enjoy the Long Story Arc!! So Say We All.<p>Cheers, NoHubris, MNG, chrth!!
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Prototype Human Cyclon download chip? Making humans into cylons? Just a thought to get around the "if she was a cyclon, why baby shop her?" Anyway, she's out of the credits which means we won't know until the end of the season or next season anyway. The key is probably to make sure she doesn't hook up with another series and just does like a Sci-Fi channel movie during the hiatus.
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What happened to that show I loved?<br><br> Running in the jungle from Cylon parties, Kara learning how to fly a Cylon ship by pulling on gooey nerves, the New Caprica rescue, etc, etc!<br><br>This new show they've morphed into feels like frakkin Party of Five.
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Only to find that she's Jumped the Shark. She then is offered ice cream by Henry Winkler, who says "Now that's what I call a sticky situation!" as he wipes the goo off her.
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March 5, 2007, 2:52 a.m. CST
This series blows dick, and has always done so
by Mr. Charmand Grimloch
I've actually endured every single moment, including those idiotic "webisodes", for this steaming chunk of shit called a television series, and personally, I cannot wait to sit back and watch as eventually all of the people moronically claiming this to be "the best television show ever" or even "the best science fiction show ever" to change gears entirely, and quietly disappear as the ratings finally take this turd completely down the pipes. This idea sucked from the initial get-go, and its a fucking riot to watch the same nerds who pinch their balls with one hand while typing how "hot" they think Katie Sack-a-shit Off is, try to excuse every fuck up the writers have made since the beginning of the laughable "New Caprica" concept. Rightly, many people stupid enough to think the charlatan Moore had ANY idea where this turkey was going have finally woken up and realized that Galactica is nothing more than a self important, brooding bunch of bullshit where Olmos delivers every single line of dialogue as though he has something caught in his throat, and McDonnell looks like she's stoned and about to cry every time she steps into the shot. This show is, like the X-Files, a one trick pony, that has shit once too often on the obstacle course its running.
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I'll predict that next season Starbuck returns as an in-head character. We have two in-head characters (Six and Baltar), but they also exist in the real world of the series. So an in-head Starbuck would not have a living counterpart. What I wonder is which regular character would be the most logical to experience in-head Starbuck. Apollo would be too obvious. Baltar already has an in-head Six to deal with. Maybe Helo?
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huh?
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Congrats to those on this talkback who have pointed out that this episode is clearly a stepping stone for the series: it is not the end of Starbuck. The Aurora reference is filled with possibilities - and the significance of the Aurora icon (placed on Adama's model ship - a literal 'figurehead)is potent: Starbuck's destiny is to lead the fleet to Earth. How this will be accomplished is the real trick. It is worth noting (http://www.answers.com/topic/figurehead) it was once believed that spirits/faeries called Klaboutermannikins (water mannikins) dwelt in the figureheads. The spirit guarded the ship from sickness, rocks, storms, and dangerous winds. If the ship sank, the Klaboutermannikin guided the sailors' souls to the Land of the Dead. To sink without a Klaboutermannikin condemned the sailor's soul to haunt the sea forever. That the question remains if she is with the Cylons now is something of a misdirection: the Oracle told Kara he would be 'coming for her. Soon.' That could be literal. But Sackoff's absence from the series for the remainder of the season indicates Starbuck's future 'presence' on the show maybe in spirit only.
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I don't post on these much, but I was pretty upset about tonight's BSG, so I rewatched it three times, freezeframing through all the shots with the supposed "Cylon Raider" that Bucky kept seeing. Folks, that ain't no Cylon. The body is wrong, the movement is off, it cloaks in and out (not just through clouds.) But most of all, its engine trail is purple. Cylon ships have either red or no engine trails (I haven't been able to confirm, but I'm 99% sure.) If that's a Cylon, I'll eat my fucking hat. What it is, however, is occassionally white, and full of light. As in Ship of Light. Add to this the fact that Kara's "In-Head Cylon" is, in fact, not a Cylon (as he confirms when he says "I never said I was") and I'd say we have ourselves a proper set-up for the Serephs (the angelic creatures of original BSG.) Which leads me to a theory. If this is all going in a "war of gods with the humans/cylons caught in the middle" direction, then Kara's "Head Leoben" is a representative of the "good" Seraphs. Likewise, "In-Head Six" and "In-Head Baltar" are not just halucinations of Cylon programming (as we've set-up in the previous "there's nothing in Baltar's head" episodes.) Clearly, In-Head Baltar is not Baltar, and we've yet to meet a Six that matched up with Baltar's In-Head Six. Extrapolating from the Ship of Light/In-Head Not-Leoben theory: they are also Seraphs, communicating and leading the humans and Cylons in directions, as pawns in their war. This is a weird fucking direction for the show to take this late in the game, but they've always played the religious card heavily, and a little research shows how many cues they've taken from the original. Wonder how long till we see Iblis? The Seraphs just took Kara in their totally-not-Cylon ship of light, through the maelstrom. Not the best episode, by FAR, but a really, REALLY cool concept that could explain the whole "in-head person" thing very well.
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Just a thought:<br><br>If Kara was taken by a third party, and not by a Cylon (cause, seriously, NOT A CYLON RAIDER), then that would explain Moore's comments about this episode changing the direction of the show.<br><br> If this episode introduces the Seraphs, then that's a MAJOR shift in the show's direction, even if it's one that won't be revealed or paid off until much further down the line.
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Anyone else notice that it looked like the Moon, Earth and Sun in alignment? No way Starbuck is dead, it's almost sure now that she's one of the final five. Hope that won't be the cliffhanger though.
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Bamber and Sackhoff did a great job in this episode, as they usually do.
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If the writers/producers were not happy with her, they wouldn't give her the "destiny" buildup this season, then give her an entire episode focused on her just so she can commit suicide. I know that she's not on the last three eps, but I HOPE that we at least see her in the last few minutes of the season finale. Oh, did I mention she's undeniably hot? Yeah, I think I did earlier.
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They spent too much time on her. Now if there wasn't a 4th season then I might be a little pissed.
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I think the idea of the Seraphs is a cool idea, and yeah, it would explain the "in-head" characters. But would Seraphs be aliens or what? Because if so, wouldn't that contradict the "no aliens" policy on the new BSG? I never got into the original series, but those ideas sound pretty cool...
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Although how about this: maybe it's the original Lords of Kobol. We never found out what happened to them, did we? All we found out was that the humans left because the Lords were getting mean or something.<p> PS: Just checked Wiki, and it looks like in the original show there was some theory that the Seraphs were actually Lords of Kobol. So that would make sense.
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...back in the early 80's when she was on "Mamma's Family" and played the "hot" mom who used to bend over in hot pants all the time. Last night, when I saw her and thought of those memories, I puked AND dropped a nuke in my pants simultaneously. Good Lord. What has become of me?
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Here mom mentioned Starbuck always getting close to the edge, but never dying... <p> So because she had this destiny, it was impossible for her to die?
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Just excellent!!
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Starbuck feared death, and her way of dealing with that fear was to dance at the edge of death ... but even doing that didn't cure her fear. She had to confront death directly in order to cure her fear.
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Not sure if the Seraphs are the Lords of Kobol (if so, and they're related to the In-Heads, why would they want to make Gaius a monotheist? ... unless it's just one Lord of Kobol?), but it's really the only explanation that makes sense in the context of what the series has said (i.e. no aliens).
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I'm still trying to figure out how they could possibly work in Count Iblis. That would be a major direction change as well, and pretty frakkin' cool.
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<nt>
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twist". Why ? Because at least they had the foresight to slip that drawing in many episodes ago ... so clearly they had this arc planned long in advance. It's got some possibilities, that's for sure, and I'm looking forward to resuming the "quest" for Earth. Then again, I'm also looking forward to the cylons being in an episode again one of these days.
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That raider wasn't there. It was her subconcious programming leading her to something we have not yet seen. The whole time I was watching all I could think of was Boomer and the water.
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planetablaze - The Raider looked to be one of the "heavy Raiders" - NOT one of the smaller ones. Starbuck even called it out when she went after it. I believe she referred to it as a "turkey" and that there were no "sparrows" (i.e. the smaller Raiders). Just an observation.
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Somethings going on anyway. <p>The games afoot, Watson!
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No, really. You could see the name on the filter in the ash tray. Either an editor missed it in post production or...THEY WERE ON EARTH ALL ALONG! Personally, I'm going with the editor thingy.
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Yeah, yeah, it's setting things up for something bigger. But you can do that without dedicating an entire episode to someone brooding before offing themselves. That's just inexcusably poor writing. Especially when they've done so little with Starbuck in recent episodes that she'd pretty much just become some chick who gives Apollo sidelong glances and broods.
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This was what all the hubbub was about? She confronts her fear of death by killing herself? If this was it, it was a stupid way of killing off a character by leaving all these open issues. If they don't get back to all the open issues by the beginning of next season it'll seem like Lost is answering questions at lightning speed.
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We don't need to mess with theory, I think he's nailed personaly. It fits nice and neat and is as over-complicated as some of other fan-theories. If it *is* true, then I for one can't wait for series 4.
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let's not forget the crazy teleportation technology on Kobol and in the Temple of Jupiter which would leave a good way for Kara to have escaped death in her viper if she was 'ported onto a Sereph ship. This could also lead into a great concept of Cylon and Human having to team up against the Serephs who are clearly a little to at ease with treating both races like ants in an antfarm.
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Then we already know that they don't have the best of intentions. Heck, they could've messed with the Cylons to get them to worship one of them (Iblis) as the One True God and to get their revenge on the Humans. Iblis, of course, is the Cylon God played by Dirk Benedict this time
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We don't need to mess with [his] theory, I think he's nailed [it] personally. It fits nice and neat and is [not] as over-complicated as some of other fan-theories. If it *is* true, then I for one can't wait for series 4. Don't know what's wrong with me and missing words out lately..
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You know, this is a little far-fetched, but if Starbuck is still alive, and we're still due for a death, IF is was Adama that dies they could technically get around the "no aliens" clause he's got the show locked in. That opens up ALL kinds of possibilities.
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with the ejection theories. The shot of her with her hand on the ejection handles was just showing her hesitating for a moment. Even if she did punch, they were over some gas giant and she would have been crushed by the pressure as soon as she descended. She pulled an Obi-Wan Kenobi. I think you can see some clues and parallels in the old BSG/BSG80. She will be part of them finding their path to earth.
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We have the Final Five, and the Known Seven. Anyone else find it odd that it's not a split Six/Six distinction? How does the following sound:<p> The first 6 human-like Cylons were Wave I. They were exposed directly to the Seraph(s)/Iblis/Lords of Kobol. The second 6 did not; they were created with a belief in the One God but not exposure to him. It'd be like, God created Adam(a?), but instead of punishing him for eating the fruit, he killed him and started again with somebody outside the Garden. Now one of the 6 remained loyal and they were not destroyed/boxed/whatever happened to the other 5, so they still exist and their purpose is to keep the other 6 'second gen' Cylons or the Colonists from discovering the truth about 'God'.<p> This, of course, would be Cavil.<p> Now what D'Anna learned was the identity of the Final Five, one of whom she recognized. Cavil boxed her because she did not want her encountering the model and somehow 'awakening' it.
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She could still pull up, why would she grab the eject?
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Yea....dramatic effect. Didn't say it made a whole lotta sense. Writers are wacky that way
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If she ejected. The planet's atmosphere was dense enough to crush a ship. If she ejected, BLAM! Now, she may come back as a Cylon or something, but having her survive by ejecting would be big-league bullshit. That Starbuck body is gone.
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when she went back for the Arrow of apollo. That was Six. Too many things point away from Starbuck being a Cylon in my opinion. There were a few moments during her flight into the Maelstrom when i thought she was going to take a shot at the "raider" only to have it be Lee's Viper that she ended up blowing out of the sky. Starbuck accidentally killing the CAG, and Admiral's son, effectively grounding her, would have been a fairly big shakeup of the show, though still not a direction-turner.
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March 5, 2007, 11:14 a.m. CST
you guys are grabbing at straw,,,,it was a Heavy Raider
by SantiagoAtez
If it didn't look EXACTLY the same as other eps it's because the art of CG is NOT perfect!
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It now makes perfect sense that Count Iblis is the Cylon God as well as Baltar's 6. Just look at the way she uses temptation and self-doubt to make Baltar do her bidding.
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March 5, 2007, 11:30 a.m. CST
Mr. Charmand Grimloch- You hate the show and you watche
by Lovecraftfan
d it for its entire run? Why woudl you do that. I love people who come into Talkbacks and bitch and bitch and then reveal they can't stop watching the show.
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Ron Moore, will you never do the death of a female lead character with dignity and real dramatic resolution? The death of Tasha Yar must have had a great impact upon yeh.
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Charmand, I would say that from 33 to Home Part 2, it's clear that the show had a very specific through-line, and that the writers knew where they were going the entire time. Every "mystery" element introduced is ultimately resolved. Since that point, the show has been wildly uneven and I think that is due, in part, to the fact that there was no real clear plan on where to go after the map to Earth was found, the Adamas reconciled, and martial law was lifted. But I don't really see a way to claim that the first 16-17 episodes weren't integrated well or thought out in advance.
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The prophecy the Oracle told D'Anna came true after like 8 or 9 episodes later, and they even threw us a curveball by making us think the prophecy meant something else. I think people see 'filler' episodes and presume lack of planning, I just think after they mapped out the season they saw a couple holes they had to fill.
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First, I think we all know what's coming as the last scene of this season - the 'cliffhanger'. It will be a scene just like at the end of the pilot, when Sharon walked in - WOW! SHE'S A CYLON! This time - it's Starbuck. WOW! SHE'S ALIVE! When writers lose their creativity, when they get burned out on a project, when they begin to run out of ideas - it all becomes so predictable. But here's a good test: I have rewatched the episode, and Kara's death scene in slow motion. Lee DEFINETLY saw the Cylon Raider before he caught sight of Kara's fighter. So if next week's episode makes no mention of this fact - that the Cylons are nearby - perhaps even tracking the fleet - then I cry 'foul'. They cannot transition into the Baltar trial story without this being a big deal. I will be watching. Overall, I am disappointed. It's their show - not mine - but I have loved it for quite some time. To see it fall apart is really kind of sad. Let's hope they can get it together.
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to this theory of the Seraphs. If these creatures / angels can change their shape than that would explain the invisible 6, invisible Baltar, and the invisible cylon raider. What hasn't been emphasized enough is that Aurora (not only a love interest of Starbuck in the original series) is also the Roman goddess of dawn (or new beginnings). Her childern were the four winde (essential for ships to travel). And she was reborn every morning to guide the day. She was also believed to cause the dew in the sky as she weeped tears for one of her dead sons (lots of water on the viper cockpits last night). One way or another, Starbuck will be responsible for leadnig the Galactica to earth. Also, wasn't it during the trial of Baltar that the imperious leader was unveiled and wasn't it also the episode where Apollo was killed and resurrected in the original.
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If they're introducing a new group of beings that are manipulating events and people (both human and Cylon), doesn't that pretty much put an end to the "Cylon Plan"?
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Maybe the final five are the Seraphs. They were all glowing and stuff.
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They just might not be very good plans, or they might have a goal they're not 100% convinced on (cf the Cavils speech to Roslin/Adama)
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True, chrth. However, they suddenly don't seem so ominous or all-knowing.<P>Something is definitely going on with this show. The more I think about last night's ep, the more conflicted and curious I get.
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times. It's not like the whole 'They have a Plan' has any real meaning.<p>(Before anyone asks)<p> First plan: Kill most of the humans, try to breed with the remainder<p> Second plan: Since some militant humans escaped, hunt and destroy them so they don't come back and kill us<p> Third plan: Eh, we'll leave the humans alone (also have found breeding wasn't go to work).<p> Fourth plan: Never mind, we'll bug the humans again to make sure they don't come back with a vengeance. (This is essentially a kinder, gentler version of the second plan).<p> Fifth Plan: Let's find Earth!
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But we don't know since we haven't visited with any Basestars since the Eye of Jupiter episodes.
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Ah, but MNG ... why did they seem all-knowing before? In-Head Six. She looks like a Cylon, talks like a Cylon ... but is she a Cylon?
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Perhaps she got teleported out at the last second?<p> One thing is for sure - We were promised a death and a cylon reveal before the end of the season. It seems we have that death. Now, if Starbuck is to come back as a cylon, we will see her within the final 3 eps. If not, it's someone else. Who else could be a cylon?
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down in the storm while Lee pulled back was freakin awesome?
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We didn't see Starbuck perish, just fade into white inside the cockpit. MAYBE she's been kidnapped.
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the Lords of Kobol. I think they're the Final Five. Now the Lords/Iblis may be behind them (as the One God), but that reveal will happen later.
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I still have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. You keep on bitching about the show and mention Espenson and supposed flashback eps in the same breath. I already pointed out last week you were WRONG about that. Neither of Espenson's episodes were flashbacks - both were specifically about the survival of the fleet (your so-called 'urgency') - the first being about the food supply, the second being about fuel supply and treatment of the workers (plus the fact that both eps subtly added incredible depth to Baltar's character). How the frak is that emo? You're not liking the show currently, so you're flailing about looking for someone to blame. Whedon and his crew has always been an easy target for you, so you blame them. Nice. I still can't imagine any similarity between BSG and Whedon's stuff. But keep trying though. I'm sure if you look hard enough, everything wrong with television and movies will sooner or later be Joss' fault.
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George Mason beats Georgetown in a "Battle of the Beltway" and Louisville squeaks by UK to make it the most exciting NCAA Championship in years. Sadly, UofL goes down to George Mason in the biggest Cinderella story ever. Rick Pitino ends up being the Cylon God and then defects back to the Boston Celtics. It's madness, I tell you . MADNESS!!! (oh, yeah...anybody that thinks Katie/Starbuck is gone for good is frakked in the head. She'll be back....oh yes...she'll be back. Now how about some Seelix-on-Callie action????)
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The Oracle told her, "Leoben is coming for you." Starbuck, "You're not Leoben." "I never said I was." Why would they stress the mysterious Cylon raider, and show us a clear close-up of her hand gripping the Pilot Eject lever, unless it will become part of the storyline? Leoben did come after her - but not in her head, he sent the ship. The Cylons believe suicide is a sin, and they want her alive.
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Nope. That is NOT a heavy raider. There are a few reasons for me to say this, I'm not just being contrary. <br><br>Heavy Raider's engines don't run purple. Heavy Raiders have a different build, this ship was long and sleak, much like the (ugh) Droid Fighters from Phantom Menace (compare to the heavys in the opening sequence. I did. It ain't one. Promise.) Heavy Raiders cannot cloak or hide themselves from Dradis detection. The ship was also not just in Starbuck's head, as Apollo clearly sees it right before Bucky's ship 'splodes, so nix to the "Cylon programming" theory.<br><br>But more than any of that, the guys at Zoic (the FX company) aren't stupid, they aren't lazy, and if the FX in this episode are any indication, they worked damned hard on these particular sequences. Why, then, do we never get a shot confirming it's a Raider? Why do we only get fleeting glances and fly-by's? That's not just for dramatic import, people, the ship is INTENTIONALLY obscured (by either the cockpit, clouds, or darkness.) The one thing we ALWAYS see? <br><br> Purple engine trails.<br><br>I know that sounds ridiculous and nitpicky, but I know people at Zoic. That isn't just some bizarre choice. That's intentional. That is no Cylon.<br><br>Which isn't to say that Bucky et al didn't THINK it was a Cylon, clearly they did, but they never got a good look at it, and it didn't register on Dradis. I'm sure that's what this Seraph Stelth ship was counting on. Forgive the analogy, but: If you spend all your time in Iraq, when you start chasing down an Iranian, you don't much care about differences in skin color and facial features at the time, you probably just focus on catching the "bad guy." Humans only know humans and Cylons. Without a big wake-up call, a skeptic like Starbuck sure as hell isn't gonna call that hostile, non-human fighter anything other than a Cylon.<br><br>Also, totally agree with the idea of the Final Five being Seraphs (I'm assuming one of them is, in fact, God), and I'm guessing the Lords of Kobol are ALSO Seraphs. Two warring factions of Gods... using each side for their own aims... starting to sound a little like Original BSG.<br><br>Or Babaylon 5. :-D
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It's easy to point out when you're wrong. Because you usually are! I love how when I've proven you wrong, your only defense is 'oh, I was only baiting you. And you fell for it. Ha Ha!' Lame. Even for you.
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Okay, the Oracle saw Leoben, but not what was behind the face, which, as Starbuck discovered, was something MUCH more. They don't stress a "raider" visually, it's just what the crew THINKS it is. They never give us an objective close-up from Sbux point of view, which is a clue in and of itself. And the eject lever, that's Starbuck making the decision NOT to pull it. The show is, above all, a character drama, and if you're going down, even if you're at peace with it, you have a moment of "should I save myself" contemplation. It's just a character beat. She didn't pull anything. She's in that ship when it 'splodes, unless (and I like this theory) she was teleported out.<br><br> And seriously guys, Starbuck didn't commit suicide. She let go of who she was to "become what she is." If "what she is" is a Cylon, you think Starbuck of all people would be okay with that? AT ALL? She would fight that all the way to the bank. If this show does anything, it does character. It would be mindbogglingly out of character for Kara to decide that she's totally at peace with being a Cylon. No, she's at peace with letting go of her demons and becoming somehting more. What exactly? Ain't that the question.<br><br>Oh, and not to overstep my bounds here, but Whedon is brilliant, and this show never, EVER reminds me of him, even when Espenson is writing. Peace.
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Cylons and Humans have to eventually come together to rebel against the Gods that have so nonchalantly messed with their heads and altered events? That could be sweet beyond reason.<br><br>Don't know if that's where they're going, but I'm behind that 100%. Good call, man! Way to run with the theory.
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Mr. Nice Gaius and JarJar4Prez will be played by oisin5199 and Kai_Mah'gra.
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2 warring factions of Gods, mostly from a 'how can they possibly cover all that?' perspective. I think the idea that the Seraphs are meddling with Cylons and Humans is great (kudos, Lemming), and a Cylon-Human team-up may very well be in the offing.
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Lee is peering out his cockpit. Suddenly, he sees something. The Cylon Raider comes into view, then suddenly, here come Starbuck's viper. He sees them both. That's important. Where did the Raider come from, and how will the fleet deal with it's appearance? If they don't deal with what Lee saw, then there is no credibility to the story.
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I guess maybe I'm just hoping this isn't planned precisely because it's been kind of choppy. // New topic: I have a couple of problems with recent developments: First, the introduction of oracle seers into the Colonial religion [instead of just wise old black lady priests or guest star priests] tends to undermine everything they did with Roslin in season 1 and 2, because if clairvoyance is a huge part of the Colonial religion, everyone should have reacted to Roslin's visions a lot differently, including Roslin. And Baltar shouldn't have been able to imply Roslin was nuts if "real" psychics are falling out of trees in Colonial society. Second, I think the introduction of the "Final Five" was handled in a very clumsy way, and if it was such an important scriptural concept and was so important to the Cylons, we should have heard about it before. I don't like the way it came out of nowhere. Taken together I think the way the show went "back to the well" on the "mystical prophecy" thing has really set the show back. I could be interested in "the arrow of Apollo" and wondering if Roslin's visions were real or just medical; this new tendency for new prophecies to be introduced every two weeks and for the Colonial scriptures to expand exponentially is really debilitating for the show.
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Hopefully it doesn't devolve into the "Donkey AIDS" spectacle of two weeks ago...
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Ha! Well thankfully chrth, JJ4P/Vog/Mr. Mean Gaius/by by is gone-daddy-gone away.
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...is how people on this talkback, and elsewhere on the 'net keep bitching about how this episode "...introduced the idea of Kara's abusive childhood unnecessarily to add depth to her character....blah, blah blah". Her abusive past has been hinted at and mentioned several times, it was just expanded/shown last night in greater detail. Here's my interesting thought for the day: If/when Starbuck miraculously rejoins the fleet, how in the Hell is she going to prove she's not a Cylon? I hope her absence from the next few eps gives Tricia Helfer a little more screentime. There's been far too little on the Cylon on board storyline.
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You definitely set a compelling scenario regarding the Not-Raider. But to me, it was plain as day, especially after watching the replay. I don't believe anyone said that the Cylon ships cloak themselves or slip in and out of Dradis. But it was clearly stated that the planet/cloud was wrecking havoc on Dradis in general. (Didn't they even lose Starbuck on Dradis at one point?) As for the exhaust, I'm not sure...but I always thought the Cylon exhaust/contrails were purplish-white anyway. (Godsdamn, how geeky is this???!!!)<P>However, based upon your theory, I do concede this possibility: whoever/whatever it was may have been intended to look like a heavy Raider because it/they knew Starbuck would go after it when it appeared. Could it all be part of this Not-Leobon's plan?<P>Cheers!
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Who else was hoping they'd bring back Amanda Plummer as the strange oracle on New Caprica? Her brand of craziness seemed much more realistic than new-agey oracle girl.
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Bound to piss a few people off. Ron Moore all but suggests that the death was just the writers being ballsy for no good reason. But if you really listen to what he is saying, I think you get the sense that there is a HUGE story here that they have always planned and killing Starbuck off made it work better.
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Oracle. Although maybe the purpose was to show Oracles weren't an infrequent occurence.
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The only way oracle girl could've known the dirty details of Starbuck's destiny, which includes Leoben, is if the oracle herself is a cylon. Maybe she's one of the five? It's the only thing that made sense to me since I don't believe in new agey pseudo science. If it turns out the oracle isn't a Cylon, it would suck for me because no one can read minds.<p> That said, I wonder what the hell Starbuck's "destiny" is. Cylon? Long-term memory wiped Special Ops Cylon? Hybridized Cylon? Something else?<p> I'm interested to find out.
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<p>I guess the first few episodes of this season were an anomaly. I remember thinking that Exodus, Pt.2 was one of the best hours on TV of all time. I did had a lot problems with the second half of season 2. But this episode was the first time I realized that more of the show sucks than is great.</p> <p>There is no defense for this episode. I see some of you are using the same Lost defense here. "Trust us, they're setting things up for greatness later on." I don't care what they are setting up, anyone can set it up better than this (think children with crayons). Each episode must be able to stand on it's own as a good episode or it sucks. It's really that simple. You cannot point to another episode that was as bad as this. What scares me is that Ron Moore was setting this up as the pivotal moment in the season. What the fuck is Hollywood smoking these days?</p> <p>As for this turning into a Whedon show, I love all his shows (even the last two seasons of Buffy). I think he's a TV genius. If that's what was happening to this show, I should be enjoying it more, no? Shows like that weren't about the arc either. The arcs were just gravy. So why is it they seem so much more coherent? Why did Buffy deal with its arc better than big arc shows like BSG and Lost?</p> <p>I can't see how this is setting up anything great either. If she is one of the final five, it's kind of an anti-climatic way to do it. Whether she is or not, everyone is wondering it. If she is, it would have been much more effective to have her run into another copy of herself. Not telegraphing it a season away. If killing her was about setting up the "boo-hoos" in the fleet, well she doesn't deserve it anymore and hasn't in some time, and this episode did nothing to remind us of why we once liked her. So again, it's an ineffective setup.</p> <p>Yeah this show did a good job tricking me into believing it was quality sci-fi. But it's not really any better than shows like Earth: Final Conflict and Andromeda. Both of which had good first seasons, turning into inexplicable crap sometime in their second. The only difference is that BSG is on in primetime rather than weekend afternoon syndication. I managed to eventually stop watching those other two shows and now I wonder where my breaking point for this one will be.</p> <p>Rome needs more talkbacks. Aside from Heroes, it's the only show that's not been sucking it up this year. I would kill for a decent sci-fi show again (or any new decent show). If there were just a few more good shows on TV, I'd be able to more easily give up on crap like BSG and Lost. Maybe there are 12-step programs out there to help me ween myself off.</p>
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And extra spiffy it looked too. BSG does have some nice effects shots that I am beginning to get complacent about. <p> Katies one for good, I think. SHame!
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"I have watched all final four episodes of the season, and let me tell you, Starbuck’s story, whatever happens Sunday, is not over. And that finale the end of March is incredible. I’ll have more to say on that the closer we get to the airdate."<P>Full link: http://news.bostonherald.com/blogs/roughEdge/<p> Sounds good to me.
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What was so bad about it? I thought it was solid, well-acted, and a great set-up. And Maltheus, in a serial drama, you CAN have set up episodes, and it CAN be ok. I don't even see how this could be considered all "set up", anyway. 3 seasons of hinting at Kara's destiny comes to a head as she realizes she has to fly into the storm, her entire life has been leading to that moment. HOW IS THAT SET UP!? It's a culmination of the "what does that symbol mean"? storyline and a jumping off point for discovering Kara's true destiny. I'm pretty shocked at alot of the hate for this ep.<p> Also, with Kara's mom having been in the cylon wars, AND having been medaled for something we've yet to know about, one has to wonder if she had been captured way back when and implanted with a wee little cylon child, who she named Kara.
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Good post.
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I keep coming back to the line of dialogue with Kara and her mother. The way the line came out, it seemed to suggest that her mother's dream was for her daughter to have a glorious military career. But was that really what the dream was about? Maybe the dream was really about Kara's destiny, and the vision that her mother kept having about it. Kara probably got sick of hearing about it, and despised the abuse she faced as a result of what she saw was her mother's obsession. So in that context, her spiteful comments made perfect sense. Kara probably always knew the truth of her destiny, and spent her whole life in denial running away from it. Until she couldn't run away any more.
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I don't know if it's just because they were flying in light, but was it just me or did the CG on the vipers look significantly better this ep?
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"Everything has happened before, and everything will happen again." The 'whirlpool' is a gravity-well. It is most probably Kara Thrace herself who has been leaving signs for the Fleet to follow. Has it not been extremely coincidental for Galactica to be finding all these signs which point the way to Earth - placed there 4000 years before, JUST so that Galactica can find them? Signs that appear (Supernova) JUST when Galactica arrives? Kara Thrace has gone back in time 4000 years to make sure those signs are there for the Galactica to follow. I think the plot arc was brilliant. Thank you for tolerating my first post.
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Kara was the result of some shit that happened to her during the cylon war. A hybrid child, perhaps.<p> Alot of people have noted that it was a HEAVY raider seen in the maelstrom. Heavy raiders can hold a resurrection pod. Arbitrary choice to have that instead of a regular little raider? I doubt it.<p> Also, the creators have said that both Maelstom and the finale would be tied together. I expect (hope) we get some inkling of what's happened to starbuck by then.
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I agree, top notch cg tonight. Like I said above, I thought the maelstrom scenes, particularly Starbuck's explosion, looked awesome.
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<p>What was good about it? I mean, there was no story. Just some flashbacks and flying around in hazy weather. So Kara was abused as a kid. We knew that already. Plus, even in season 1, I always hated the stories about magic. Visions and destiny have always been the weakest part of this show (in-head Baltar and Six aside, that may have a decent explanation). Visions and destiny are pretty much the definition of deus ex machina. I guess I have nothing to rip apart cause it was 45 minutes of nothing to me. I would love to hear what you thought was good about it (storywise)?</p> <p>Set up episodes are fine, but they have to stand on their own as well. The only exception to this might be the part 1 to a multi-part episode. Maybe I missed something. Maybe I tuned out due to boredom. But other than Kara dying, I can't recall a single thing that happened in this ep. And although I once loved Starbuck, I couldn't care less that they killed her. Her character had gotten to the point where she was dragging down the show.</p>
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Adama smashing his ship over the loss of Kara, as if Galactica is doomed without her presence.
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Either as a Cylon and that raider was her Resurrection ship, or she ejected and the raider caughter her and Lee just didn't see it for some unimaginable reason, or SOMETHING because as it was, there was no closure at all with this episode. If Starbuck is dead and gone and that's it, then they really blew it. I don't think she is though, I can't believe they'd be that stupid (and it would be stupid to do it, no matter what kind of spin could be put on it). I know things happen with contracts, but that doesn't excuse a build up with no pay off. There was NONE here after so much of the season was setting up something about Kara and the Cylons! So much in fact that I think they'll regret even pretending she is really dead for a while as that seems to be what they are going to do. I'm not very enthusded for what could be tedious angst and recriminations that will follow between Apollo and Adama (talk about a broken record). They've covered so much conflict between those two, this feels like it'll take us right back to where they were when they were both morning the other son's death! And nuts to never featureing Dirk Benedict as Starbuck's long lost dad! What a lost opportunity. BTW, I think Kara could easily be a Cylon even though we saw her mom in flashbacks. The memories of her mother are either fake or the Mother is also a Cylon, or both. I don't take anything too literally with those flashbacks, I don't know why anyone would! We live in the age where they rewrite whatever you think you saw all the time, and those scenes with Starbuck's mother had a surreal feel anyway. But that could also have just been to mislead us.
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It was assumed that it was her father, wasn't it? There wasn't much of a "present day" story because it was all about Starbuck struggling with her dreams and visions. It was alot of exposition, not a self contained plot, but I hardly see how that's a bad thing.<p> Storywise, things happened, but they were all tied to Kara and her "destiny". If you weren't interested in that story there was nothing for you. She has visions, she visits the oracle, she starts to really lose it, etc. We also got alot of background info: We know it was her mother who abused her, her mother who had somehow been medaled though she had never even made officer in the Cylon wars (I think there's something to that). She kept telling Kara she was special, and it seems to be more than just a "special military career" thing. Her mother believed she had a destiny. <p> The oracle had some bits for her, as well. Most interesting? She told her leo would be coming for her (the Heavy Raider swiping past her viper, anyone?). It was all about Kara coming to terms with her dreams and possible destiny, and rather than denying it as she had been doing, she faced it. Even if it meant death. That was the story.<p> As for visions and magic, I get what you're saying about the "Deus Ex Machina" stuff but I've always been a fan of all this mythology and destiny stuff in BSG. I wouldn't be nearly as interested in the show as I am, otherwise. I can see how visions are convenient and easy, but I don't think they have to be, and I don't think they're mishandled in BSG. <p>This episode could only be considered a waste if Starbuck was never mentioned again in this show. But that would be ridiculous. After all that talk about her destiny? As I see it, this was just a jumping point for the character... Where it leads her now I don't know. <p> And as for missing Starbuck - True, she'd been hard to take as of late, but I still felt it in my gut a little when her ship exploded. It's kind of rough seeing a character you've followed for years just blown up like that.
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if Kara was implanted in her mother, I wonder if there was some resentment there. She had become pregnant because of cylon experimentation, which I'm sure she hated, but she loved her baby at the same time.
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when it comes to quality. Exodus part 2 was simply awesome to behold and gives Galactica a pass in my book for alot of sloppy things. Hell, I've loved just about every hour since the mini. I feel no need to be overly critical or apologize for it. My only problem is I don't want to be told I'm getting steak when I clearly have a hamburger. The interview with Moore set this episode up as a turning point, yet nothing pivoted. Yes, something may have been setup, but there was no payout. It was 40 minutes of nothing with a great Adama moment at the end. To think that Starbuck's "death" alone will change anything about the fleet is naieve. I needed some sort of higher implication for this episode to feel significant on its own. Step back and view it as a stand alone episode from a 1st time watcher's perspective. Would you watch again?
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fools that picture that kara has subconcious been drawing is that time travelling donut from star trek tos. starbuck has gone back in time to meet mccoy and joan collins. really am getting bored by no pay off whatsoever this season, felt underwhelmed by starbucks "death". what we reallly need is a couple fo people to die in one go. that'd be ballsy.
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fools that picture that kara has subconcious been drawing is that time travelling donut from star trek tos. starbuck has gone back in time to meet mccoy and joan collins. really am getting bored by no pay off whatsoever this season, felt underwhelmed by starbucks "death". what we reallly need is a couple fo people to die in one go. that'd be ballsy.
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I haven't read all the posts, but at the end there, when Apollo finds Starbuck again in the clouds, before her ship goes blooey, I think he sees the Cylon raider as well. I think that's what he means when he yells 'visual'. Also, before her ship blows up, it looks like she grabs a release mechanism for an ejector seat. Soooo, I think the Cylon raider she saw was real, and doing some kind of close-proximity mind-fuck with her, and she ejected before the viper exploded. This is probably how they'll explain it when she comes back. Nothing here to totally confirm or deny whether or not she's a toaster, though.
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That would explain why her mom thinks she's so 'special', and hates her at the same time. Her mom was in the war, could have been experimented on...
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but I promise to bring it back to Galactica. Every day I try to watch "The Simpsons" on our FOX affiliate, they run this fucking Pepsi commercial every break. Its got some douche screaming in french over this punk / beach boys fusion while some ass rides a giant Pepsi ball to a bunch of Subarus. I fucking hate it so much, the only way I will ever drink Pepsi again is out of Grace Park's vagina.
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Full circle.
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Wasn't the original Starbuck stranded forever on a barren planet. He met a being from the ship of lights, and somehow fatherd a super child...Dr. Z or something. That child was supposed to become the savior of the human race. Maybe Moore is following G. Larsen's blueprint.
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weird episode, initially i didnt like it other than the Viper scenes, too much of the drama and flashbacks that makes me doze off or fast forward. but then, its a controversial episode... and it makes me wanna go back and look for more clues. interesting. the Cylon ship is the transport that was seen in the Eye of Jupiter episode... both Baltar and the Toasters used it to land on the planet. so there was a Cylon ship there, looks like Starbuck is a Cylon now, or maybe she was since the baby farm... or maybe she is one of the 5... which makes the most sense. but yea, i agree the episode is kinda half baked... i mean they setup the Mandala she was drawing for a LONG time just for this payoff in the episode? lol... i mean the implications are huge to be sure, but the episode is small and easily dismissed.
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She kicks butt. :) http://tinyurl.com/24svw7
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The fucking bitch put rubber bugs on her mom's shoes when she knew she was petrified of them! Godsdamned ungrateful little frakker! I think it was a very good episode but not the *LIFE CHANGING HOUR OF TELEVISION THAT WILL...CHANGE YOUR LIFE...FOREVERRRRR!!!!* that people were expecting it to be. The network should just shut the fuck up, just like with Lost where they're fucking building up filler episodes and then when just character stuff happens people get frakked off and say they've had it with the show. I hope to frak Moore knows what he's doing or else we've just lost a great character and the overall plot has gone to shit. It's pretty much impossible to predict what the finale will be. Roslin as the number one Cylon would be a good cliffhanger. I believe she will lose the presidency before long. Baltar might end up President again if last week's ep was anything to go by. The Chief and Cally were digging what he was saying in his 'Mein Kampf'-style writings. What if it all turned around and it was Baltar that led them to Earth and Roslyn was the lead Cylon?
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She did eject. Just wait till next weeks episode where the Chief discovers her body smeared under Apollo's ship. Apollo got a little too close while she was ejecting and "SPLAT." They will identify her by those bug eyes she always shows. Apollo and crew will be devastated.
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Starbuck might be the first hybrid. Remember, her mother was in the first Cylon war. Perhaps she was impregnated by one of the first skinjobs. Did they ever say why she got the medal? Was she a POW of the Cylons? It might also explain why Starbuck was the only one who could fly the Raider.
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... or at least we were lead to believe he was flying that raider ...
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There's something going on with the parallels between the three apartments - Caprica, New Caprica, Starbuck's Mom's place - and the three generations of Thraces - Mom, Kara Thrace, Kacey - and Leoben saying he's not who he seems to be and that all of this has happened before and will happen again. All of the intercuts between the three similar locations and the three blonde actresses was definitely telegraphing we should expect a big payoff to this in the future. The whole episode felt rushed to me though. It also confirmed what I already knew which is frankly I'm bored shitless by 90% of the scenes which don't feature Baltar and Six or Adama and Roslin. The show's critical reputation is 100% built on the Iraq allegories and the Baltar sub plot with all its marvellous mystical mythic bullshit, and RDM should damn well know this and play to his strengths instead of plaguing us with weeks of craptacula filler. I don't believe anybody on earth gives a toss about Lee Adama and his wacky adventures in love, so kindly stop making us watch that vomit every other week. It was frankly ridiculous when weeks ago they spliced together the fascinating Baltar torture hallucinations with the unromantic rhombus of recrimination, or the wrecked angle of requited love, or the trapezium of tedium, or the square of despair, or the kite of shite, or whatever trigonometric sobriquet floats your boat for that clusterfuck of a plot device. If killing off Starbuck for a while has hastened the demise of that nonsense, then I think we can all breathe a sigh of relief.
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This TB is seriously starting to repeat itself...
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The raider wasn't there. I think the purple exhaust was a symbol of how it wasn't real. Kara also saw the whirlpool as being multicolored, but Lee saw it as white clouds. He says, <p> "Visual! Visual, ok.. Kara, I'm coming to get you!", and as he says that the camera focuses on Kara's ship, NOT the 'raider' which is flying away. This is showing that he DID NOT SEE the raider, even though it was plain as day. Either it was truly invisible to him and not Kara, or it was in her head. <p> Not sure what this means, precisely, but Heroes is on and I must go.
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There is no direction, but the creator has you all fooled into thinking there is some pre-conceived idea. There is not. Sadly, this will not sink in until it is far too late, and you suddenly wake up and realize that the program is greatly overrated. This "event" episode was ridiculous. All that will happen now is at some point, a foolish spin will be put on these events to somehow qualify their relevance. Don't be tricked. The drama is false, and the characters are ridiculous. This show is the biggest hoax perpetrated on science fiction television fans since someone moronically claimed that Star Trek-The Next Generation was better that the original series. Guess what? It wasn't.
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I like your theory, chrth. And, as for the plan, the 7 can have a plan, and they can think it is actually their idea, even if not. Or, their plan may be their own, but may be superseded by the 5's plan. The whole "take care of humans on New Caprica" was not a part of the original cylon plan, anyway.<p>A priest once told me: " If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans..."
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...is not "what happened to Kara" since it seems clear she is not gone for good.<p>The most interesting question: Who Was Appearing As Leoben?<p>Kara said "you're not Leoben" and he replied "I never said I was..."<p>So WHO was it helping her to "the other side"? God? One of the Final Five? Someone/something else? The answer is the key to what happened to Kara.
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...a Seelix-Centric episode ;~)
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Seriously, go troll somewhere else and leave us "fools" alone. We are obviously too stupid to even understand anything you write so please don't bother responding to this or any other message, just go the fuck away.<p> Anyway, thought the episode was great. I absolutely love the mystical aspects of this show, and man was this mystic heavy. I did do a WTF when the Oracle wasn't Plummer though.
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I just saw the Canadian broadcast of SG 10x18 and in the episode they give a big FUCK YOU to SciFi for the cancellation. The episode itself wasn't great, but I laughed long and hard after the scene. If I got the episode number wrong, it's the one with Fred Willard as Vala's father.
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The real human Starbuck is still at the baby factory.
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"You've got to STRAP IT DOWN!" Man...I sat through GALACTICA 1980 when it first ran back in the day, HOPING for a payoff, but this is getting to be too much. C'mon, man! You're better than this. I still believe in the show, but my centons are getting shorter.
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Interesting theory.
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Are projecting their frustrations of the seeming aimlessness of this half of the season a bit too much. No, it wasn't spectacular, but it had some good acting and character moments (about time they showed Kara THrace do something but whine) and sets up an intriguing development concerning THrace. WIll it pay off in the end? I hope so. I will give them the benefit of the doubt.Yes this half of the season seems very meandering with all the filler episodes, but I think the last two were very good stand alone episodes. And if Starbuck's sacrifice means a furthering of the overall story and a new direction for Kara Thrace in the future, I'm all for it. If you wanna bitch about a formerly great show that has REALLY turned to crap in it's third season, go bitch on a Veronica Mars talkback.
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(Mom, Kara, daughter) are all the same person - maybe cloned. That is why the mother is so mean. She knows what her future holds and she is preparing herself (Kara) for what comes next...
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You know, I looked up this guy's name on the internets and this is what I found: http://tinyurl.com/2aft79<P>As a consequence, I just can't take his whining seriously.
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And where the hell is Red Ned Lynch?!
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I see the truth now thanks to Mr. Nice Gaius. I just thought he loved Transformers. "Me Grimloch act like douche on talkback!" "Mike Bay gotta eat me" and such.
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otherwise, "that thing I was supposed to do" would be to get herself blown up. for a second, when they reveal her mom had cancer, I thought she'd have some kind of terminal hereditary disease, and so she would crash the ship into that thing that looked like her drawing, revealing some kind of fundamental clue to earth, so she'd turn out to be "the dying leader that leads them to earth but doesn't get to see it herself" (remember that? where's the dying leader?) <p> Still, those "scenes from the next episode" didn't look like a major shift in anything.
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It lacked gravitas.<p>But man, those Vipers looked awesome.
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It should've been a two parter or three or four parter. This is Starbuck we're talking about here.<P>Her departure should reverberate through every succeeding episode in an astoundingly haunting manner. We should see a desperate search of the maelstrom where clues to Kara's "death"/destination are discovered. Baltar's trial should be interrupted and Baltar should be released by Adama to analyze them and then figure out part of the puzzle. Leoben should show up with the Hybrid and the Basestar to also look for her leading to the season ending cliff hanger.<P>Just a thought.
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Listening to the podcast now. They simply couldn't afford Plummer for another episode.
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1) planetablaze has made a _very_ credible theory. Humans & Cylons could just be being manipulated by higher powers - which may have now been introduced through not-Leoben (although their formal introduction is still to come), and have actually been hinted at through the Oracles, inhead-characters, & scriptures/faiths the Humans & Cylons have. <P> 2) Considering how I read that Moore wanted 5 years for BSG, and wanted to tackle what the characters believe & who they are.. Now with the possibility of higher powers manipulating the characters - BSG could come one step closer to Babylon 5-ness (the show I've been comparing BSG to ever since they started talking about beliefs and destinies). <P> 3) Starbuck's death worked. She's been going downhill mentally all season. She has alot of scars from her childhood. This episode was the straw that broke her. Only because of her friends, because of not-Leoben's wisdom, and through strength of will - rather than be destroyed by it, she's been transformed by it. She accepted what she thinks she had to do (because up until now she didn't know) and she did it. She is now no longer the Starbuck we knew. <P> This was not a Tasha Yar death (killed like a red shirt). Not a Jadzia Dax death (killed for no reason). This is most likely a Sheridan death - both he and Starbuck didn't know what it was all about. They then find out in their own way and do something about it in their own way. Their resulting deaths and possible "resurrection" are transformations to fulfil their destinies and help those they care about. <P> 4) BSG is still the most talked about, argued about, and thought provoking sci-fi on TV at the moment. I'll be missing it when it's gone, because other than a possible live-action Star Wars series, once BSG is gone there'll be no decent sci-fi on TV anymore (unless you count Doctor Who). <P> 0) The last ep of SG1 was pathetic, and the scene regarding the financial situation of the "Stargate program" was about as clever as the episodes to do with Wormhole X-treme (not Stargate's finest hours at all. Funny perhaps, but like bad episodes of Robot Chicken or Family Guy - no heart, no wit, just obvious laughs).
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Thanks for the link--I laughed so hard that I am real pain now. Worth it! I may send it out to friends as my own long lost baby picture, to prove that Chromedome once did have hair!!<p>Thanks again for the much needed laughter, sir. I can almost breathe normally, now...
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I've raved twice about the last moments of this episode, but listening to the podcast made it even better. That moment was not scripted and the ship was a rental! It was worth over a hundred thousand and Ed destroyed it on camera. Great TV. Although I wish he had said "It's too bad she won't live" but that would have been out of place I suppose.
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You are most welcome.<P>Amy Chasing! Nice to see you back!
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I didn't think the jab at SciFi was meant to be clever, in fact it was blatantly hamfisted, and good for them that they made it so obvious. I'll be curious to see if the joke remains in the show when it's broadcast here in the U.S.
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said the big kahuna in that interview invisotexted at the top... the *only* way this is a fundamental change in the show, and the way its told, and the direction its going, is if Kara downloads. If they're not going there, then this is just a character on the show dying and never being seen again, and we've been there, and we've done that. Why they didn't go ahead and show it... I dunno. As is, it remains a good ep; with a final shot of Kara covered in goo, Leoben at her side, having downloaded into a new body, that woulda *killed*.
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I just thought the Vala's Dad episode was sooo lame (almost as lame as the recent montage-flashback episode of Scrubs: seriously, only watch that if you've got 21 minutes to waste) that the jab at SciFi came across to me as "wink wink - we're being cancelled but we can talk about it within the context of the show" that I think I physically flinched at the hamfist coming straight for my face. <P> And I never left MNG - I just didn't have anything decent to write about lately (got sick of explaining to the twits over and over again why Heroes is the way it is and why BSG is more than just Cylons vs Humans every week)
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If/when Starbuck miraculously rejoins the fleet, how in the Hell is she going to prove she's not a Cylon? Doesn't matter since they COMMISSIONED A TOASTER. These guys deserve to die after a mistake like that. They've already given away the store.
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I like the idea that the elder Thrace was experimented on by the cylons, just as her daughter was. This has happened before, it will happen again. Starbucks daughter on New Caprica was not hers. We saw that upon the return. 0.02
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TV guide: The episode that undoubtedly will cause the largest stir in TV fandom was Galactica’s riveting and ultimately devastating journey into the metaphysical, as Starbuck (a brooding, tormented Katee Sackhoff) finally faced and embraced her destiny. Which meant, in a series of visions and hallucinations guided by the specter of the not-quite-Leobon as if he were the Ghost of Psychodramas Past, that Kara had to confront the soul-crushing memories of her abusive mother, who instilled in the self-destructive Starbuck a belief that suffering was good for the soul. Nobody suffers on Galactica as memorably as Starbuck, and in this final act that took her from “emotional basket case” to a martyr for purposes yet to be determined, this frakked-up hero leaves nothing but suffering in her wake. I’ve seen the remaining three episodes of this season, and without giving anything away, I can tell you the shocks just keep coming. Next week’s episode picks up two weeks after Starbuck’s death — the survivor head count has dropped, notably, from 41,400 to 41,399 — and it’s hardly a surprise to learn that no one (Adama, Lee, Sam, even her longtime nemesis Tigh) is taking the loss well. The “celebrity trial” of Baltar (“the most hated man alive”) looms and occupies much of the rest of the season, resulting in some of the most potent courtroom drama I’ve seen on TV in ages, pitting father against son (Adama vs. Lee, yet again) as more revelations in the testimony threaten to tear apart this beleaguered society of military and civilian survivors. In the prosecutor’s opening statement, as the two-part finale begins on March 18, the haunting question “How do we measure loss?” is repeated. Loss, mortality, spirituality, justice and ethical behavior in an epic battle for survival: These themes resonate throughout Battlestar Galactica, transcending the categories of sci-fi and cult TV, which is why the explosive demise of Starbuck didn’t play out like just another calculated TV death. (See 24.) Anyone who thinks Starbuck’s ultimate destiny (a phrase repeated so often I sometimes felt I’d stumbled into an episode of Heroes) was to disintegrate into a million little pieces doesn’t know this show. Anyone who can figure out who and what was waiting for her on the other side, and why, is welcome to explain it to me. And I guarantee nobody will be able to predict the twists in the March 25 season finale, which will make you question everything you thought you knew about nearly everyone and everything. My jaw is still smarting from gaping in astonished disbelief. The wait between seasons is going to be excruciating.
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I've been skimming through these theories and alot have been quite fascinating, but I'm confused as to why the "Aurora" tie in has been igorned. Aurora is the goddess of the dawn, but also a reference to the morning star, which heralds the coming of light. I think this is significant. This implies both metaphysical links to Kara as a "harbinger of light or hope," and also navigational references - as a star that guids mariners at sea. To get super geeky: the equivalent in Tolkien's mythology is Earendil the mariner - the mortal who reaches the undying lands, and then is taken up into the heavens to guide his people to the promised land (Numenor). Just some thoughts . . .
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After reading that, I can't wait... It is going to be a killer wait if they end in May and we have to wait for S4 in......January!
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I agree about the utter lameness of the episode, in fact there have been far too many of those lately, and Stargate has never done character episodes very well. But the second half of this season suffers from the cancellation. They had this whole season written and much of it filmed before SciFi cancelled the show, they had a big chunk of season 11 planned and partially scripted as well. So sadly they are forced to finish as planned, with episodes that are non A plot, and later they have to somehow pick up the pieces of the Ori story in the movies if they ever happen.<p> But dear god, was anyone actually wondering was life was like for Cameron Mitchell back in Smallville or what Vala's Dad was like? < roll eyes >
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episodes are fantastic. I am so looking foward to them.
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what makes the show great? 1. space battles 2. cylons chasing the humans 3. baltar playing both sides 4. baltar crazy or not? 5. playing who's a cylon? 6. sex what makes the show suck? 1. character introspectives 2. character introspectives that are out of character (i.e. the love quadrangle) 3. killing off characters that could heighten the drama (several supporting characters, especially from the Pegasus which I think could've provided a plethora of well written episodes) 4. standalone episodes 5. standalone episodes that are repeats of crap we've seen before (stuck in the airlock) 6. flashbacks 7. flashbacks that are out of character (Adama starting the new cylon war) 8. flashbacks with an abusive/alcoholic parent/wife
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...and they're going to trade her for the hybrid girl. So say we all who are drunk.
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Starbuck IS the shark, and, in fact, Galactica jumped HER! With Ice Cream!
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