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AICN COMICS ROUNDTABLE REVIEW OF DC COMICS' 52, INFINITE CRISIS, 7 SOLDIERS AND MORE!!!
Welcome once again to another AICN Comics League of @$$Holes Roundtable Review! I, Faithful Talkbackers, am the Moderator, the omniscient and lonely voice of reason haunting the halls of @$$hole HQ. When the ‘Holes last met at the roundtable, they discussed all of the high points and low points of Marvel Comics and their recent event/crossover books. This time we're going to focus on Marvel's Distinguished Competition, DC Comics.
The last few years have been pretty big for DC. The well publicized miniseries IDENTITY CRISIS snowballed into the cosmic INFINITE CRISIS. Then DC continuity jumped to ONE YEAR LATER, and flashbacked to that missing year in the weekly 52 maxi-series that recently reached the halfway point. All the while, Grant Morrison has been doling out an event of sorts he calls the SEVEN SOLDIERS OF VICTORY. DC's got a whole lot going on these days. But let's start with the most recent and focus on 52 first. Now that half of the maxi-series is over, what do you guys think of 52? Any of you reading it?
SQUASHUA: I've become somewhat obsessed with the mysteries behind the story of 52. It's a conspiracy I can handle. I don't feel like I have to take the first sentence of the seventh paragraph of "A Midsummer Night's Dream" and somehow cross-reference it to Tolstoy while dropping acid and masturbating to "The Illuminatus! Trilogy" (I'm looking at you, 7 SOLDIERS!). As a whole, the story never makes me feel beneath it.
SUPERHERO: I was reading it until issue 24. I just ended up dropping it. Not because issue 24 was horrible or anything, it's just that, well, I'm bored with it. There's some neat stuff in there but not enough to keep me coming back for more.
AMBUSH BUG (BUG): I'm feeling the same, but I haven't given up hope with the series yet. To me, the series seems to be meandering around a bit, popping around the DC globe, and only sometimes following a direct storyline. DC promises that all the threads are going to come together soon, but if that really is the case, the story has taken a hell of a long time to get there.
SUPERHERO: It's cool that DC is promising that all the threads are supposed to amount to something...the problem is that I'm at the point where I don't care what it's supposed to amount to! They promised INFINITE CRISIS would be worth all the minis I bought and all the anticipation, but guess what? It wasn't. So who's to say 52 is going to be different?
SLEAZY G (SLEAZY): I know where you're coming from, but I've always been a fan of anthology books and that's what this really is in a lot of ways. I'm one of the people who only ever bought ACTION COMICS on a regular basis when they did the weekly anthology thing for a year in the 80's. For me, maybe it's partly that nostalgia that made 52 appealing to me.
BUG: Some issues have worked better than others. I hate to sound like a broken record regarding single issue story structure, but each comic should be like an episode of a TV series, with little plot advancement and some kind of resolution or cliffhanger in the end to keep you coming back. Some of 52's issues have done that, but sometimes I feel like I'm just being prepared for something and it’s taking too long doing it. I don't want to be prepared to be entertained--I want to be entertained, dammit!
MODERATOR: Okay, as usual, we may be getting ahead of ourselves. Why don't I go ahead and give a quick recap of what exactly is going on in 52 up to now? The story is an expansive one that spans the globe and beyond hanging on the tag that even though Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman disappeared for a year, the DCU was not without heroes. So far we've seen the rise and fall of Booster Gold, opportunist super-hero who fell victim to his own fame when it was revealed that his heroism was disingenuous. Booster seemingly died after uncovering a clues to a mystery that had something to do with the number 52, the bending of time, and the Crisis that started it all.
We've also followed the down-on-her-luck, former Gotham detective Renee Montoya as she has been undergoing training from the enigmatic Question. They uncover a new heroine in Gotham, Kathy Kane aka the new/old Batwoman (and Montoya’s former lover), and a trail that leads to Kahndaq, a Middle Eastern country ruled by one of 52's other stars, Black Adam.
Black Adam has made Kahndaq a major world super power and has won the powerful Isis as a bride. Adam saves Isis' brother from death by granting him a portion of his own power. Dubbing himself Osiris, the Black Adam Family—a shadowy reflection of SHAZAM's Marvel Family--was formed.
There's also a plot involving Lex Luthor, Steel, and his niece Natasha. Natasha lost her power at the beginning of this series. Luthor has developed a process that activates the meta-gene in humans. Steel tries to stop Natasha from going through with this process, but the teen rebels. Steel isn't buying Luthor's philanthropist act and knows that something more insidious is afoot.
The series also follows Ralph Dibny and Dr. Fate (now in full floating helmet, KINGDOM COME mode) as they attempt to search for Sue Dibny's soul in Hell. Wonder Girl has joined a cult worshipping INFINITE CRISIS casualty Superboy as a messiah of resurrection. Starfire, Animal Man, and Adam Strange are trapped in space and trying to get home as a result of the Rann-Thanagar War. Dr. Magnus of the Metal Men was investigating the disappearance of all of the DCU's mad scientists resulting in his own abduction. The JLA and Teen Titans have attempted to form and reform, but without Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, or J'onn J'onzz in the DCU, they've had little luck in doing so. Lobo has started his own religion and has chosen to walk down the path of non-violence, but the temptation of a good fragging is always ever-present when the Main Man’s around. Someone is building a Red Tornado robot with junk and lumber. And the diabolical Egg Fu has reared his ugly head...er egg.
So with so much going on, what are your favorite and least favorite plots running in through 52?
HUMPHREY LEE (HUMPHREY): The plots that were interesting have had some of the wind taken out of their sails by leading up to events we know already happened due to the ONE YEAR LATER reboot.
BUG: See, that's where I think the series is successful. Because all of the characters have had a special "hold" put on them for this entire year of stories in DC proper, I really have no idea what's going to happen in this series when it reaches its conclusion. Well, except for the whole UN mandate stuff regarding super heroes and the growing war between the super-hero communities of different countries. That stuff has been fleshed out in the CHECKMATE and GREEN LANTERN series.
SUPERHERO: I liked the Montoya/Question stuff when it wasn't dealing with Batwoman. Batwoman is a bore.
SQUASHUA: It's unfortunate that they seemed to only use her as "stunt fodder"; she was around for what, two issues and then they didn’t touched on her again until just recently?
BUG: I think the absence of Batwoman in DC proper probably indicates that she's being set up to be killed with Montoya possibly mourning her death during this actual year and in the end, taking up the role of Batwoman out of respect for the original.
SUPERHERO: I've been thinking the exact same thing...I think Montoya is gonna eventually be the next Batwoman!
SLEAZY: What the hell is with you people? Montoya WILL NEVER and SHOULD NEVER be a cape. Period. Rucka's not gonna do it. She's always gonna be a regular street-level chick. She hates capes waaay too much to ever become one. They're clearly going somewhere with her, but it's not Batwoman.
SUPERHERO: Everyone freaks out at just the mention of Montoya becoming Batwoman! Which is why it'll happen.
SLEAZY: *sigh* Everyone freaks out because it's so goddamned stupid. I don't know why you people can't understand this character's motivation. She was permanently branded in a highly visible area by one of these hero's villains. They interfered with her cases over and over. She lost friends and lovers. She isn't gonna suddenly go "gosh, maybe I was wrong". Anybody who tries to suggest this just flat-out doesn't get the basics of writing.
BUG: She hates capes, that's the cool concept behind her becoming one. It'll happen. They're setting her up to be the next Question, but out of obligation and respect for the death of Batwoman, she'll fill her shoes.
SLEAZY: It's a shit idea that displays no originality whatsoever, so just move on before you cause a crippling brain aneurysm...
HUMPHREY: And there you go with another trend that has been pissing me off since the whole OYL/52 deal kicked off, DC's lame attempt at creating more "legacies" by killing off or retiring as many of their heroes as they can and putting in replacements.
BUG: Awww, see, Sleazy, you’ve got a friend after all.
HUMPHREY: Seriously people, just pushing a character out of the way and bringing in a new version doesn't make the property interesting again! Good stories make the properties interesting!
SQUASHUA: I saw an interview where the writers/editors talked of a hidden New God who has been presented throughout the series. If SEVEN SOLDIERS is canon, the New Gods have taken human form. Based on the multiple questions surrounding her identity, my money is on Montoya. Anyone?
BUG: Nah, Montoya will be the next Batwoman.
SUPERHERO: If Montoya's past isn't the perfect setup for a superhero origin I don't know what is...
SLEAZY: I swear to god, one more time and I'm gonna hunt every last one of you "Montoya is the new Batwoman" fuckers down and beat your skulls in with Greg Rucka's own words on the subject painted on bricks in the hope of finally making a dent.
DAVE FARABEE: Yeah, but Rucka can't be trusted, Sleaze-man. He turned the tail end of GOTHAM CENTRAL, THE quintessential non-hero book, into a tie-in to the supernatural component to the biggest DC crossover in 20 years. THIS guy I should trust? Greg Rucka = company man.
ALL:…DAVE!!!!!!
SLEAZY: Don't get me wrong--I'm still pissed he cyborged Sasha Bordeaux up. Hate it. But that's different from him (and maybe Brubaker? I don't recall) stating in no uncertain terms that they'd never do it. Now having her replace or sidekick The Question? Kind of a cop-out, but not entirely objectionable depending on how it's done.
DAVE F.: I hope that when Montoya becomes Batwoman they give her a bigger rack.
ALL (but SLEAZY): …DAVE!!!!
SLEAZY: I've decided I hate you all.
SUPERHERO: I'm sticking to Batwoman. I'll probably be wrong but y'know I could be right.
SLEAZY: NO YOU COULD NOT BE RIGHT AAAAAAARRRHGHGAHGAHGHA
BUG: You scared Dave off.
SUPERHERO: I think Sleazy's gonna have an aneurism! MONTOYA IS BATWOMANMONTOYA IS BATWOMANMONTOYA IS BATWOMANMONTOYA IS BATWOMANMONTOYA IS BATWOMAN!
SLEAZY: Goddammit I wish I could Hulk out right now.
SQUASHUA: Speaking of The Question, how does he know so much? Like knowing to rescue the crime bible and having the foresight to pick Montoya as the (wo)man for the job?
BUG: Hey, he's the one asking the questions around here, not you!!!! Maybe Booster is this rumored New God. Or Super Chief!!! I really liked him. Why'd he have to die so soon? First Manitou Raven gets killed, and then Black Condor is killed in INFINITE CRISIS, and now Super Chief in 52. It ain't safe to be Native American in the DCU.
SQUASHUA: Or African American in Marvel.
SUPERHERO: I love the Black Adam stuff in 52...mostly because a lot of it was already set up in JSA and it seems like a logical progression of his story.
BUG: I'm really liking the Black Adam storyline. DC has done a good job at setting him up to be a complex character. Not really a villain, but not necessarily a hero either. He’s DC’s Namor now. I don’t think they had a character like that before.
SLEAZY: I like the Adam storyline somewhat, but it feels like they're setting up Isis to take a fall, and it bothers me a little. There's been far too much of that already, like with Booster and Super Chief and whoever that speedster chick Luthor whacked was. I understand getting you interested or invested before doing something bad to a character from a writer's perspective, but it's getting to the point where I'd like some of the characters or stories I'm interested in to actually stick around or have a more upbeat outcome. They don't all have to bite it, y'know?
BUG: Aww, c'mon, do you actually think that Booster is dead? Booster is either going to be making an appearance later on or already is as the masked mystery man Supernova. At least that's who I think it is...
SUPERHERO: Yep. Me too. But I'd heard some talk that Supernova might be the New God...like Lightray or something.
SLEAZY: Oh sweet baby jeebus no. I LOATHE the New Gods. Dear god do they suck. I'm sorry, but NOBODY--not even Morrison and Rucka and Johns and Giffen--can make those characters worthwhile.
BUZZ: Everybody has a character or set of characters they feel this way about. Me, I hate Thor.
BUG: Mine’s Captain Marvel Jr.!!!! Ooooh, do I despise that gimpy bastard!
SLEAZY: You know which character I hate? Guy Who Won't Shut Up About Montoya Being Batwoman #3.
DAN: Is something bothering you, Sleazy? Cuz I heard something about Montoya maybe becoming Batwoman, and I was thinking about that and missed all your other comments.
BUG: I think Booster is going to be the new Montoya.
SLEAZY: Bug, I hate you most of all.
DAN: As I've always hated Booster Gold, I could have cared less about that story.
SQUASHUA: What don't you like about Booster? I love that he's a complete sleaze. I hope they are going to address all the inconsistencies surrounding his character recently and not just dismiss them with "Hypertime". What I mean by this is that Booster was around during COUNTDOWN. Then, I believe he states (somewhere) that he's going to go back to the future and get some help. The next time we see Booster, it's in INFINITE CRISIS and he's fresh from the future with a brand new Skeets. With the way he acts since he's arrived, one would think that the Post-IC Booster Gold is (was) an entirely new entity.
DAN: I don't know that I can nail down exactly what it is that bothers me so much about Booster, but I think a lot of it has to do with his attitude. Characters like that tend to leave me cold.
SLEAZY: Dude, then how the hell did you end up here? Don't you know who we are?
DAN: Last I checked, none of us were claiming to be heroes...
SQUASHUA: Booster is dead, but I wouldn't count him out yet. He's a time traveler who technically died off-screen in a story that involves time travel. We haven't seen the last of him and I'm sure he's been set up to redeem himself in the final act.
SUPERHERO: I hate the Space Odyssey/Great Space Coaster thing.
HUMPHREY: I really, really, really wanted to like the “Lost in Space” story because Adam Strange and Animal Man are two of my favorite characters, but that whole thing went a place no comic should ever go.
DAN: I dug the space odyssey right up until Lobo entered the picture. I've always hated that character, and while he's less offensive here than in most places, he knocked me right out of that story.
BUG: Yeah, I’m not really into the space plotline mainly because I know next to nothing about the main three characters and the plot has given me very little to steer me into caring about them. The only character in that plotline that I am actually familiar with is Lobo and I really can’t stand the character because of the oversaturation of the character throughout the eighties and nineties.
SUPERHERO: The most interesting thing for me was what happened in issue 24 with the new Justice League formed by Firestorm. I actually thought that team would have been interesting to see develop but, of course, they killed that right out of the gate. Only two plotlines actually interested me (Black Adam and the new JLA) and one was kicked out the window almost from the get-go. I had to drop it after issue 24...it just couldn't keep my interest.
HUMPHREY: I'm actually a fan of Steel (Shaq flop aside) but that storyline is horrible. It doesn't help that his niece is easily the most annoying comic character I've read more than once.
SUPERHERO: Does anyone actually like Steel? I've always hated that character...
DAN: I do, but that plot is just irritating me.
SLEAZY: I never liked Steel much before, but then I only came across him in JLA. I think they're doing a decent job with his story: they set up an understandable conflict with his niece, and he's really leaving his ass hanging out in the wind considering his new look is part of a setup on Luthor's part. I can honestly say this is the first time he's held any interest for me whatsoever.
BUG: I never liked Steel. The guy just fails to entertain me. He's always been this bland non-character that has now become more bland since he's been reduced to the role of worrying dad. If he really was this powerful iconic character with steel hard skin everyone at DC is trying to pass him off as, he'd "steel" up and slap some sledge hammer to Luthor and his crew. In 52, John Henry Irons' balls are the only thing that aren't made of steel.
SLEAZY: Brilliant analysis there: Steel's too busy thinking things through? He should just punch stuff and make an ass out of himself in front of the media? The dude is smart enough to know he's playing Luthor's game and not the other way around, and he's trying to do the right thing without looking like he's the bad guy.
BUG: And making a hell of a snooze-fest of a story out of it in the process. How many times are we to see Steel eat shit because it's the right thing to do? He's got steel hard skin that drips molten metal and he's spent 27 issues staring at his shoes. Boring.
SLEAZY: He's not eating shit, he's getting his ducks in a row. It's set up, man.
SQUASHUA: Right from the beginning, he should have been frank with his niece (Hi, I'm Frank!), and told her that Luthor poisoned him rather than let her assume he was in the Everyman program. We do know, considering where he ends up OYL, that Luthor loses. He's the only major presence of 52 that we've seen OYL, besides Ugly Mannheim.
BUG: BTW, anyone see the new JSA advertisement with a new/old Steel on the roster? Maybe John Henry Irons is one of the characters that's not going to make it out of 52 alive...
PROFFESSOR CHALLENGER (PROF): That's going to be Commander Steel as he was in ALL-STAR SQUADRON. And a "real hardcore badass" (verbatim from Geoff to me). That doesn't necessarily preclude Steel from still being around. To my way of thinking, the biggest indication that Steel is gone by OYL is that I don't remember him being considered at all for membership in the new JLA.
SUPERHERO: As far as the Elongated Man subplot goes...it's been OK, but no great shakes for me.
HUMPHREY: The whole resurrection cult thing drove me batty, and since we only see a tidbit about it every five issues or so, the stuff with the Fate helmet and the missing scientists didn't keep my attention at all before I stopped reading the title.
SLEAZY: The Dibny thing in particular looks like it's going somewhere I wouldn't have expected, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. Setting him up to be a major player on the magical side of the DCU is a good way to distinguish him from both Plastic Man and from the other detective-ish characters like The Question and Batman. On the other hand, I haven't seen him turn up yet in the post-52 DCU, which makes me worry he won't be around either, which would bum me out.
BUG: Remember, there’s been an official “hold” put on all of 52’s major players until the end of the series. Dibny, Batwoman, Isis, Steel--all of these characters we’re hypothesizing may be dead by the end of 52 may not be present due to this “hold.”
DAN: I initially found the Dibny story to be lame, making Wonder Girl look like kind of an idiot, but as it progressed I warmed to it a bit and I'm cautiously optimistic now. I'm actually impressed by how well the whole maxi-series holds together for a weekly with continuous stories - it does it better than I expected. It has some missteps, but those are mainly caused by the fact that it happens in "real time' so a story can disappear for issues as nothing happens in it. It's also hampered a bit by having to address so many things a once, but that's the nature of the beast when you try to tell the story of an entire world for a year.
BAYTOR: I read the first couple of issues of 52, had a good laugh at Disco Donna, and haven’t even been tempted to look at it again. For me, the DCU drifted so far away from the sort of stories I’m interested in that I just can’t get any enthusiasm going for their latest big event. What do I want? I want a bunch of books that only vaguely interact with each other. I don’t want my favorite book to skip ahead a full year unless it wants to skip ahead a full year.
BUG: I know this weekly format has got to be a bitch for DC, but it really is an interesting experiment. And for the most part it's been a success for DC since they haven't missed a week yet. Marvel can't put a seven issue event out on time, but DC can do 20-some and counting issues in a row without a hitch. That says a lot about the organization of both companies right now. I respect DC for attempting and for the most part accomplishing such a large task.
BAYTOR: Man, hard to believe I am a big DC fan. I keep waiting for a moment to jump in and I've got fucking nothing. I recognize the words you're saying, but I don't know what they mean.
BUG: There is an awful lot going on and DC does rely quite a bit on the reader following the storyline pretty closely to understand what's going on. DC is not a very inclusive universe these days. If you didn't jump on during IDENTITY CRISIS, you're pretty much fucked when it comes to understanding the big story, and even that story had deep ties further into DC's past. I know DC is trying to distinguish itself from Marvel, but they really should break down and acknowledge that Marvel is doing something right by having a recap page at the beginning of each issue. Hell, get rid of that annoying Didio editorial page at the end of each issue. I'd much rather read up on a recap than that.
HUMPHREY: But there's the other thing that bugs me about this book in general. It's that in order to make 52 relevant in the slightest we get to have plot threads in the current books delayed until the events actually occur in 52. So you're just reading along in, say, TEEN TITANS, and then just because it was finally in 52 the week before all of a sudden it's like "Man Wonder Girl, remember when you were in that stupid resurrection cult? WTF were you thinking?" It's just horribly jarring because instead of organically dealing with these changes that have technically already happened it just becomes an "oh, by the way..."
MODERATOR: Well, let’s move onto OYL then, where each ongoing series jumped forward a year in continuity to allow room for the 52 maxiseries. What did you guys think of how DC pulled this off?
SUPERHERO: Yeah, the whole "jumping a year forward" in the regular books is something that was hard to take. It actually reminded me of the whole SECRET WAR mess back in the day. Remember that? They all jump into the Beyonder's complex and disappear and the next issue they're all back and Spidey's got a new costume and She Hulk is on the Fantastic Four...what the...? And then you had to wait a whole year to see exactly what happened as SW played itself out. The whole jumping a year ahead thing while another series plays itself out is absolutely jarring...
SLEAZY: Maybe so...but why is that a bad thing? I think it was meant to be jarring, and I can see why that would be a great storytelling technique. It makes everybody sit up and say "whoa, wait--WHAT?!?" and take notice of what's going on. In fact, the books that have changed less noticeably are also much less interesting to me. I don't mind a shakeup now and again as long as the explanation works.
SUPERHERO: Or it makes everybody sit up and say. "whoa, wait-WHAT THE FUCK??? Why should I give a crap? I have to wait another YEAR before this all plays itself out after I've been reading all these minis for a year plus a big tie-in event???? Wotta jip!"
HUMPHREY: Eh, it's okay. I mean, most of the "changes" have been negligible so far, so it's not like this supposed overhaul of theirs was anything huge to transition. So we have a new Atom and Blue Beetle, apparently Luthor is now on the outs with the public, and yadda yadda.
I mean, it all just goes back to what I was saying about the way 52 affects the outcome of books that are trying to progress forward but they have to wait until it's uncovered in the 52 series. It's not like anything major can really go down, otherwise we'd have noticed by now. You just can't go eight months ahead in a book like TEEN TITANS or whatever and then go "man, it's a shame the Society turned Nightwing into a eunuch" or whatnot.
BAYTOR: I read a few of the OYL books. My big complaint is the same I have with virtually every company-wide gimmick. It’s a good gimmick, but not in every frakkin’ book. Instead of making a book jump off the stand, the entire line takes one step forward and you see a huge mass of sameness.
BUZZ MAVERICK (BUZZ): Yeah. That's what's wrong with crossovers. Do each book right. The collective universe will then be in good shape.
BAYTOR: From what I read, there wasn’t a sense that they took full advantage of the time jump and it just felt really forced. You weren’t skipping boring stuff, you were skipping major events, which just seems like the wrong way to do things to me. It doesn't matter if you put out a brilliant Zero issue or a brilliant 1,000,000 issue, because there's a couple of dozen other issues doing the exact same thing at the exact same time that prevents your issue from jumping out on the stands.
SUPERHERO: My response is going to sound pretty crazy on this so just deal with it. I'm still convinced that the whole ONE YEAR LATER thing was really done to give the Superman titles some sense of continuity with the SUPERMAN RETURNS film that came out this past summer at around the same time that the ONE YEAR LATER thing began to hit all of the main books. If you go back and look at the Superman titles that came out at around the time of ONE YEAR LATER you will see that in every issue of the ONE YEAR LATER Superman titles they would have at least three characters saying stuff like, "He's back!" or "It's so good to have him back!" or "He's been gone for so long!"
SQUASHUA: I'm cautious to say that the Superman books benefit from OYL.
SUPERHERO: As far as how the ONE YEAR LATER THING actually worked? Meh. No big deal. To a regular reader like myself it just seemed like business as usual. Same old superhero tales without much of an impact.
SQUASHUA: I think it was more than a little jarring to pretty much every title, and it's a safe bet that not every creator was going to be happy having to wrap up their current plotlines and flush them down the toilet. I think the writers would have been better served with being told to jump their book a year forward at the best place they could *creatively* do so, rather than have a global mandate.
BUG: When I think of ONE YEAR LATER, I think of throwing fish food into a bowl. In my opinion, DC was at its strongest in the week after INFINITE CRISIS ended and OYL began. It was a nice cohesive nugget of a universe, but after OYL everyone seemed to forget talking to each other and working together and scattered into a million directions, like fish food hitting the water and dispersing. Some of the stories from OYL rose to the top, while others ended up as poop strings clinging to the @$$holes of a goldfish.
HUMPHREY: Yeah, it also doesn't help that so many books dropped the ball completely either with going in directions that made no sense (like NIGHTWING) or where the creative teams just failed to drive home things that could potentially be interesting.
SLEAZY: I think TEEN TITANS has done a pretty good job of genuinely shaking up the status quo and cast of the book while simultaneously harkening back to the previous characters and storylines. I love them having Ravager around to keep everybody on edge, and the stuff between Wonder Girl and Robin is really well done too.
SQUASHUA: Nightwing, who hasn't really been involved in anything lately, is getting attention in the interviews and the discussion is starting to sound reminiscent of Quesada talking about Speedball. Someone here has to be a Nightwing fan. I don't follow him. What do you think about the comments from Didio regarding Dick Grayson having been on the editorial chopping block, getting saved, and now being back on that block?
BUG: I'm torn with this issue. I think that Dick Grayson is as much of an icon as Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, but he's been a character that no one knows what to do with. The writers have been searching for a purpose for Grayson for years. Dixon was closest to making Grayson his own man, but everything Dixon built around the character has been destroyed since then. Right now, he's this aimless character...but I'd hate to see him go. I'd rather see something death-like happen to Tim Drake, the current Robin, and have Nightwing slip back into the Batcave as an equal partner (not sidekick) to Batman.
SLEAZY: Oh, come on. What are you, 73? That's a lousy idea, and not just because Tim Drake is the best Robin in the history of Robin. Nightwing as an "equal partner" of Batman? Please. Batman has no equal. Period. Second he does, you might as well kill 'em both cause you've destroyed the character anyway. Nightwing will only ever work if he's his own man, and the more distance from Batman he keeps the better.
BUG: Have you read ROBIN? That book sucks so bad it leaves hickies on your fingers after reading it. Tim Drake hasn’t been an interesting character since Dixon left the series four years ago.
SQUASHUA: And what about Jason Todd? Does his mere presence diminish Dick Grayson, or is he a better foil? Which brings me to another point that I've brought up before: Has anyone noticed the increased number of previously-unaccounted-for polar opposites and teen iterations? TEEN TITANS shoved a bunch down our collective throats a few months ago, but I'm seeing more and more evil Bizarro-esque doubles for heroes than ever before. Is it possible that DC is stealthily building up to a future "event"?
BUG: DC's done this type of thing for as long as I can remember. Every icon has to have a female version, a young sidekick, a character that has replaced them once and is now a sort of outsider, and an evil opposite. It kind of adds to the kitchy charm that I mentioned earlier.
MODERATOR: So some of you like 52, others have dropped it or skipped it altogether. Some followed the OYL stuff and we've commented on that. But what about the two miniseries that started it all, INFINITE CRISIS and IDENTITY CRISIS? Now that we've had a little time to see how it was going to effect the DCU, what do you guys think of INFINITE CRISIS and its fallout? DID anything worthwhile come from it or was it just another overblown event?
HUMPHREY: Honestly, I barely think of any of it at all anymore. I can truthfully say the only good thing I've seen come out of this is the existence of CHECKMATE as a series. That's it. Most of these "sweeping changes" have been so overblown that I'm not even sure what's different and what's not anymore. And already DC is going out of its way to drum up shock value by doing stuff like giving Supes and the Bat sons and doing god knows what with Wonder Woman...and I'm serious about that, what the fuck are they doing with WONDER WOMAN? Has the third issue of that series even come out yet?
SQUASHUA: I'm pissed about WONDER WOMAN. It started off on a very interesting note with terrific art, but the horrific scheduling has completely dropped the series off of my radar.
BUG: I forgot about WONDER WOMAN. Yeah, what's up with DC dropping the ball big time with their icon titles like FLASH, WONDER WOMAN (which is good, but the lag in distribution is killing it for me), and AQUAMAN, which smells like the balls of a dead mackerel...that is, if a mackerel had...balls...y'know...and it was...like...dead...and they were kind of smelly...y'know?
SLEAZY: The lameness of these three titles cannot be overstated. FLASH is a buzzkill, AQUAMAN lost me within a coupla issues and WW might be good...if it ever came out. Dropping the ball on these three is an oversight of massive proportions. I love what Heinberg did with YOUNG AVENGERS, but Didio fuckin' blew it here: wrong time to hire a TV guy to write WW, no matter how much he loves the character. That shit needed to drop every fourth Wednesday and it needed to kick people in the head.
SQUASHUA: I really like the All-New All-Different WONDER WOMAN, but I agree that it's been miscued. I feel that the mysteries behind her also weigh in on 52 and I'd love to see what happened with her as a secret agent. And hell, he added Libra. We haven't seen that guy
since, what, a cameo in JLU? And before that, never?
BAYTOR: I’m really not sure what they intended with the whole thing in INFINITE CRISIS. There was a lot of loose talk about “fixing” Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman…and the various lead-ups to the series seemed to go out of their way to break Superman and Wonder Woman so they could fix them. And Batman…they could have done that in a single word balloon: just have him acknowledge he’s been a bit too grim and make the decision to lighten up. To me, the whole thing is summed up by the fight between the Supermans in a vacant Metropolis: a bunch of pointless violence that ends up getting resolved when the participants stop acting like idiots. They seem to have drawn an imaginary line in the sand and had all their characters step over it and declare themselves fixed, and I’m left wondering why we had to have two or three years of set-up if the resolutions weren’t going to make any more sense than they did.
BUG: Yeah, when INFINITE CRISIS first came out, I thought when Johns brought back the old Supermans and Luthors he was going to make a comment on how screwy today’s superheroes had become. I think indeed he was going that route for a few issues, showing that the characters that returned from the previous CRISIS were much better heroes than the ones we have now in the DCU. But then things went apeshit: Superboy was ripping people’s arms off, Oldie Superman was obsessed about Lois dying, and Young Luthor showed his true colors. This sudden turnaround said that today’s DCU heroes were in fact screwy, but that this was due to the state of the world and not the heroes themselves--a point proven when the “good” heroes like Oldie Superman became misguided themselves by what was going on around them. I agree, it all could have happened in a single panel, but it made for a handful of interesting and memorable scenes. Still, though, I have difficulty understanding if Johns was trying to make a statement about DC’s heroes or just trying to tell a big action story. I think as a big budget action story it was pretty successful, but as a commentary on today’s heroes or an effort to advance the way heroes are perceived at DC it was a bit hazy and unfocused.
SUPERHERO: I'm not gonna say the whole thing was a failure or anything, but it did amount to a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing. I mean, what really changed all that much? It's just superheroes doing what they've always done. Nothing really new--except for the fact that all of these crossovers have made me drop weekly books like crazy and I’ve turned to looking to trades, indies, and manga because I'm sick of the crossover events and want to sit them out completely. Now I can get back to a place where my reading is more focused and I can look for stuff that I'll actually enjoy reading instead of buying into the hype. What I want is quality in my books, not quantity, these days. And I'm not going to get quality by trying to hunt down every mini or tie-in issue of a big event. That's something that I knew a while ago but forgot. INFINITE CRISIS reminded me of that.
MODERATOR: INFINITE CRISIS and its fallout wasn't the only thing going on at DC in the last year. The finale of the SEVEN SOLDIERS OF VICTORY maxi-series was released recently, finishing off Grant Morrison's ambitious tale that crossed universes and cast seven unlikely heroes as the saviors of the world. To those of you that have read it, what did you guys think of it? How do you think this will affect the rest of the DCU? And could someone attempt to clue me in as to what exactly it was all about?!??!!?
SLEAZY: I started out really excited about 7 SOLDIERS but found my enthusiasm waned over the 18 months or so the supposed one-year series took. I always look forward to Morrison trying to stretch the genre in new directions, so I had high hopes for the concept. In the end, though, I felt it started strong and petered out. In particular I thought the GUARDIAN and FRANKENSTEIN series were great, liked ZATANNA’s breeziness, and hated MISTER MIRACLE thanks to the New Gods connection.
SUPERHERO: Didn't read it. I was already immersed in the messes of HOUSE OF M and INFINITE CRISIS's multiple lead-in mini-series and I'm supposed to get into another event???? Nuh-uh...no thanks.
BUG:I was annoyed not by the fact that it was another event book to buy into, but because of the delays in shipping the final issues. Never knowing when the final issues of some of the miniseries were coming out and giving up the ghost while waiting for the absolute final issue of the series to surface proved to be too taxing for me. I mean, it was a year long event that took almost two. INFINITE CRISIS hadn’t even begun when the first issue came out, and now we’re halfway through 52 and the final 7 SOLDIERS issue comes out. So much happened in DC during that time, no wonder 7 SOLDIERS seemed to lose relevance as it went on.
BUZZ: The SEVEN SOLDIERS books I read were great. Well written. Original. Exciting. Superb art. I didn't really care how it affected the DCU. To me, it was about good comics.
BUG: No doubt, Morrison wrote some great stories within this series. But I think it would have worked better had he kept it all separate and told individual miniseries. FRANKENSTEIN and KLARION stand out as two especially great reads. When Morrison had to tie it all up in the end, he seemed to have trouble pulling all of those plot threads together in a manner that was satisfying for this reader. Too much was left unsaid at the end of each miniseries, leaving too many expectations for the SEVEN SOLDIERS finale. So when each character got only a page or two to resolve things that took four issues to get to, is it a wonder I felt disappointed?
SLEAZY: Nah, you’re not wrong. 88 pages of miniseries for a character and four pages to wrap them up just didn’t cut it. The return of I, Spyder was totally out of left-field, Guardian and Frankenstein got even shorter shrift than the rest…it just didn’t click. The whole thing felt rushed and incomplete. While I respect the ambition, its intentionally off-kilter publishing schedule crippled it. The final issue also struck me as overwrought, and it was too clever for its own good--too many odd tangential references and baroque elements at a time when so much needed to happen that concision was key. Subtext is great, and I’m all in favor of a vast tapestry, but if the story that stuff is couched in is too thin, it’s a wasted effort.
HUMPHREY: I thought it was 15 good comics, 15 bad comics, and don't think it will or does affect the DCU in any way. Sometimes you just don't need everything to tie into everything else.
MODERATOR: Let's finish this off with some DC books you would recommend to others right now; event, crossover, or otherwise.
HUMPHREY: Sadly, despite the obvious amount of effort DC has put into this whole ordeal to try and reinvigorate their line, I'm recommending pretty much the same books as I would have a few years ago before this all started. Buy FABLES, buy 100 BULLETS, buy Y: THE LAST MAN and EX MACHINA and go hunt down LUCIFER and GOTHAM CENTRAL trades.Oh, and CHECKMATE, the only book to come out of all these "events" that I actually look forward to each month.
SQUASHUA: I'm enjoying the traditionally-named limited series: MYSTERY IN SPACE and TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED (though the Doctor Thirteen backup is entering "ejected from Hypertime" territory). And, of course, 52. I loved week 27; it pushed a lot of threads ahead without making the reader feel stupid.
BUG: I thought it was emotionally powerful with Ralph not being able to witness the death of his wife. And the fact that he's going to miss the Question and Montoya by seconds is kind of intriguing. The biggest thing to come out of this issue was the fact that it seals the deal that Skeets is a total dick!
SQUASHUA: They made IDENTITY CRISIS seem good, and they placed it appropriately time-wise (check out the negative weeks), giving enough leeway for Infinite Crisis. They cleared up the dangling thread of "Where's Eclipso?” There was the death and final fate of Waverider, the most useless character since Pariah (talk about separating the wheat from the chaff). It solidifies that Skeets is a machine intelligence plant set in place since before JMC was a museum guard. We have solid proof of The Question's cancer. And they're bringing the criminally underused Batwoman back into the mix. I don't know if it was good or if I was just so excited that finally multiple plots were zipping along and answers started flowing.
SUPERHERO: Wow. Missed it by that much. Too bad they already lost me. Right now I am loving Busiek's SUPERMAN. Pacheco is the Superman artist to beat as far as I'm concerned. DC should just throw money at him to draw Superman for the rest of his life. Love ALL STAR SUPERMAN. I like Dini's DETECTIVE COMICS (although I'm not sure he's still doing it). I do like Morrison's BATMAN but more for Kubert's art than anything else. I don't know...as far as superhero books go, ONE YEAR LATER made me drop more books than jump on anything. I would have stuck with JSA but they gave me the perfect jumping off point. Vertigo is where it's at for me: Y:THE LAST MAN, AMERICAN VIRGIN, DMZ...great books but I pick the latter two up in trade for the most part because Vertigo is so great about getting the trades out right away.
DAN: BIRDS OF PREY is consistently good.
THE OTHER SIDE is a great new Vertigo series that I'm really liking.
JONAH HEX.
MANHUNTER.
FABLES.
CHECKMATE.
BAYTOR: There's not a single thing I'm buying in DC proper. I’m following Wildstorm’s THE BOYS and DESOLATION JONES. I’m actually not following any at Vertigo at the moment, but who knows when I'll decide to buy up five Y: THE LAST MAN trades or FABLES?
ALL-STAR SUPERMAN is the closest to mainstream DCU I'm getting these days.
BUG: PRIDE OF BAGHDAD was the “event book” from DC this year that lived up to the hype and then some. Some of the most solid writing and art I’ve seen in a comic book this year occurred in that hardcover Vertigo offering. Vertigo’s THE EXTERMINATORS is by far the best new series in comics mainly due to the fact that from one issue to the next I have no idea what is going to happen, but I always end up pleasantly surprised. I really love UNCLE SAM & THE FREEDOM FIGHTERS for seamlessly mixing hardcore super-heroics with political issues without leaning to one side or the other. All of these books and all of the ones you guys recommended above show how diverse DC is as a comic book publisher.
MODERATOR: Well, this Roundtable has gone on long enough, Holes. Now it’s time for the Talkbackers to keep the Roundtable rolling down below. Have at it, Faithful Talkbackers!
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sweet balls
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http://tinyurl.com/ydgaxx
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is fucking brilliant. I was going to post a rant about Flash but since the creative team is changing there's no need to. Yay.
_Squeal_ -
The insides may be another story...that I don't want to read.
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I don't think I've bought a DC Universe comic since the last issue of Infinte Crisis, and I suspect I'm happier because of it.
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'Cause I've been buying that. But I figure since it's kind of an Elseworlds thing.
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Thank's for remembering me! That picture's the best!
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I'm thankful for reviews on Wed, but that's not why I'm writing. Regarding the Natalie Portman love from last week's column here are my short screed on why she's a cunt. I’m not digging Natalie like I used to. I watched recently the Braff/Portman commentary on the Garden State dvd and Nat is just no fun. Zach Braff would talk about humorous things that happened on the set and she was just joyless. Maybe she was on the rag? Also, she seemed to want to turn the commentary, at times, into a big in-joke for her and Braff. He was cool though. He just changed the subject and talked about a filming technique.
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Yes it was. Read the whole thing.
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Nov 22, 2006 10:19:57 AM CST
So Sleazy, you must think Darkseid is a crap villain?!?
by carmillavondoom
Because that would be really silly.
There wouldn't be a Darth Vader or Death Star without Kirbys inspiration. Nice job this week on everything, the cartoon was a hoot
and you covered some meaty issues regarding DC and their (mis)treatment of some core characters, esp. WW and Supergirl. -
yourselves the Sand Men, cuz you put me to sleep. Your little column needs moer boobs , and I'm not just talking about Prof. Challeger.
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I still don't get that all the way back in Identity Crisis, Zatanna was basically responsible for a bunch of the crap-o that went down, not to mention Batman's increased paranoia... And yet no one has said a godman thing to ZATANNA YET!!! What the hell? I would expect her to be front and center looking for a way to apologize or standing up for what she did as right. Instead... She fights fairy people?!? And every lead in book to Infinite Crisis was awesome... But then Shadowpact dissapeared, The 6 didn't really show up, Raan-Thanagar was... well I don't really know... and then there was that fourth one... I can't remember... Whaaaaaaaa?
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Shes extremely cute, powerful, has
decades of back story. Hmmmm...what gives?? -
It was in a Batman book, I think. She did apologise and get yelled at or someting. It involved her and Batman, and maybe Catwoman. Ah, I think it was in JLA or JLA Classified.
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MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN MONTOYA IS BATWOMAN...has Sleazy passed out yet?
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That was my other theory, but I think I forgot to mention it in the roundtable. Ah well, no biggie. :-)
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skeets...it all makes sense now.
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You're a twat. An enormous twat. Explains everything.
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Lucas got a LOT of ideas from the original New Gods series, take a look at Apokolyps, it looks just like the Death Star. And I know there are a hundreds (thousands?) of mythic father-son stories out there...but Luke/Vader is strongly played similar to Orion/Darkseid imo...:^)
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keep em comin
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It's funny that everyone hates Lobo. I remember reading somewhere that when the Grant/Bisely book came out it was supposed to be a spoof on the Punisher/Wolverine type characters but became popular. Although I suspect it was mainly because of Grant/Bisely, which kinda ties into what someone said about good writing and art making a character interesting. As far as 52, I am really liking the Black Adam and Question storylines(Richard Dragon!). The one thing that really annoys me is Steel neice. What a piece of work that bitch is.
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I'm sorry, but as much as I respect Kirby the Fourth World stuff is far from his best work. I find a lot of the character designs really unappealing, but the characters themselves are the biggest problem. Like I said, I'll give you Darkseid, and on second thought Metron is a decent character too. But honestly--Kalibak? Granny Goodness? Big Barda? Orion? Don't like any of 'em, and never really have. I think they get a lot of street cred because of Kirby's name, but I just don't think the concepts and characters stand up to the test of time at all. Some might suggest it's just because they haven't been handled well by the writers, and I generally believe a good writer can make the reader care about any character if they work at it. It's just that I've been bored silly by this stuff so many times that it's gonna take a lot of convincing for a writer to make me think it's worth bothering with.
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Nov 22, 2006 11:48:55 AM CST
Do you really think Lucas read Kirby's 4th World stuff?
by rev_skarekroe
I don't. Mcquarrie might have drawn some inspiration, but I don't really see it. On the other hand, Lucas did finance "Howard the Duck," and apparently spent a lot of time hanging around with Roy Thomas talking about the early direction of the "Star Wars" comic, so we know he had some familiarity with the funnybooks of the '70s.
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Morrison's take on Fourth World in JLA was badass.
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Even Morrison couldn't make that dumbass character cool.
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Word! That's the best opening ever @$$es. Awesome stuff. Now I better go read the actual roundtable.
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Were always better when interacting with the Superman books or JLA. Although that giant black and white trade that came out a couple of years ago was damn good (glory boat anyone?).
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Here we have a roundtake consisting of a bunch of geeks who aren't, for the most part, actually reading much in the way of DC comics on any sort of regular basis, discussing where DC is at and all that they are doing wrong. Wow, useful.
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...are you being ironic or what?
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I know quite a bit about DC, and I read more DC comics than those of other companies. At least I like to think I do. Go ahead, ask something.
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You crazy.
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...so does that mean Jar Jar and Mr. Nice Gauis are the same person? My head is reeling.
They're probably both Kevin Smith anyway. -
It's way past 12:02. :-) He'll have to wait till tonight.
Speaking of which, thanks for the props on the image, dude. Been working on since I became an @$$hole, knowing this day would eventually come. It used to be wider and had some Civil War crap on the globe, but the chalkboards became unreadable at that point. -
You need help. Now shut up so we can bask in the glory of the article. Either that or a mod should check the IP addresses recorded and prove it once and for all.
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As you all will notice there is a slight difference with the name on these ridiculous posts. Yeah, it's pretty messed up. My apologies for this troll's ridiculous intrusion.
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I'm working on it.
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Problem solved. Man, this place has some lax security up in here. Let's all kinds of troublemakers in.
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One with a period, one without. Or all three of them the same. I don't care. Someone go get a moderator. OK, stop laughing.
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This dude is just a douche. They banned moviemack, and I praised Harry's name. Can we get a repeat?
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My post should have read, “here IS my short screed…”.
Dinkin Flicka. I just caught that in the column header image. Very nice. It’s storming on the East coast like a muthafucka. Dinkin Flicka, man. Dinkin Flicka.
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Eat some AIDS made the cut! And now to read the rest of the roundtable.
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Or maybe not. But it's pretty freakin' stupid.
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Don't start arguing with yourself. This talkback is evidence of where that leads.
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They have been extremely unsubtle in pointing to Montoya as the new Question, what with the old one having an expiration date on him and like 15 people pointing at her and saying, through various contrived bits of dialog, "THAT is the question"
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Jar Jar's little "jig" was up almost before it started. Just look at his posted titled, "Jar Jar 4 Prick" = that's where he mixed himself up. Boy, you guys must have been owning him pretty good for him to pull a sad, messed up stunt like that.Again, I'm sorry that he ruined your TB.
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Jar Jar never really annoyed me before, but now that he's arguing with himself...'nuff said, to quote another person who has lost contact with reality. I do love most of the New Gods..Forever People too, except the Racer, who is beyond salvaging. I buy more DC than ever. Started getting Checkmate, 52, Secret Six, restarted Outsiders and Teen Titans, tried (then dropped) Omac, Shadowpact, Blue Beetle. Hate Meltzer, so not doing new JLA. Worried about Birds of Prey sans Canary plus...Judomaster????
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Good team effort. Also, Secret Six sucks?
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The reason I never really dig DC is because they are too hamstrung by the "icons," but they've been doing a lot of fresh stuff. However, they seem a little obvious to me in that we readers are supposed to think she's the going to be the new question, but she'll really be the (lesbian) Batwoman after all. She's definitely putting on one costume or the other, so scream away.
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Great roundtable, loved the Dave_F cameo. DAVE!!! Squash, well done sir on the 52 opening image! Everything from Carla Gugino's pooper to eat some aids. Umm, I'd say more but I gotta get ready for the Holiday, btw, hope everyone has a great one… well, mostly everyone. Later @$$es, Cogs and fellow talkbackers.
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Forgot about Jimmy Olsen!
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New Gods #1 premiered in 1971...I doubt Lucas had started work on Star Wars by that point. And yeah, I do think that George, or like someone mentioned above, McQuarrie, cribbed lots of visual stuff from New Gods. Who wouldn't. Yeah, some of the characters are a *little* lame (Lashina? Fastbak? I can name a bunch more) but Mister Miracle, Metron, Darkseid are all interesting. And the conflict between New Genesis and Apokolyps is interesting (to me anyway). One last parallel to Star Wars:
THE SOURCE....THE FORCE....hmmm sounds somewhat alike!! -
which is why it's a shame DC's regular line can't quite keep up. They seem to be spinning their wheels recently.
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Doctor Doom is by far the best pure villain in the history of comicdom.
Others make strong cases for #2 but DOOM and DOOM alone is #1. -
"Eat sum AIDS" made it on the board! Awesome. And I think I missed a Jar Jar meltdown?? Dammit!!
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i missed it as well.
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...is why I haven't read a superhero book since 1987. They keep reaming you guys, over and over, and yet you fall for it again the very next time. lol To each their own, I suppose.
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You're probably thrown off by the fact that Darkseid didn't appear in the SuperFriends cartoons until the Super Powers version in the mid-80s.
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freaking awesome image! seriously it rules! sorry ive been absent for a while new job and other things u know how it is. and hey someone fill me in on the jar jar breakdown/banning. god im glad that idiot got banned and if he didnt he should ive seen down syndrome kids with more to say than that secretion
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I mean at least someone is!
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NOT Batwoman. The old Question's going to die of cancer or some sort of "noble sacrifice". He's obviously preparing Renee to take on the mantle of the Question, in a mentor-like manner. (his very own teacher is educating her in his disciplines and the "answer" Renee seeks is the right "question"?) C'mon, get with the program, people. Besides, when she DOES become The "New" Question, Renee and Batwoman will have some spicy lesbo lovin' as capes. And I'm liking 52 very much, thank you. (although I AM starting to be annoyed by Civil War; too many important gaps in the story that are filled in by other books)
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kill the question? how dare they...he kicked so much ass in the cartoon.
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But i'd love it if she became the new Batwoman just because it'd make Sleazy cry and hate us.
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She'll either become a new Question (a partner or the new entity) or "The Answer" or just stay Montoya.
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You guys probably also hate the Inhumans??? Please lmk if this thread is still active. Thx. :^)
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Now there's something I'm somewhat familiar with... I've read The Jenkins/Lee series multiple times. It's one of my favorite comics ever. I'm sure there were some Kirby purists who absolutely hated it, but that's their problem, not mine.
Jar Jar has destroyed himself and I didn't even get to see it. Gad, I hope somebody can fill me in on the details. He started arguing with himself? Damn, that is just too cool. -
Runaways Issue 22
Well first off, I’ve got to turn off this Cat Stevens. Cat Stevens is certainly not suited for reading or reviewing Runaways. Nah, we’re gonna need some indypunk emoboy stuff. Depending on the style of the story, I’m thinking either Pavement or Smashing Pumpkins. This one’s more relaxed than issues past, so I’m thinking Pavement… Ahh, there we go.
Alright then, onto the reviewing of the comic. I was a bit of a late comer to Runaways, and this only the second time I’ve seen Adrian Alphona’s art in its original format. I mean, I’ve got the big ass Vol. 1 hardcover and the next two digests, but I’ve always thought comic book art looked best in its original comic book form because this issue was simply gorgeous. I think this is the best I’ve ever seen the guy’s art. When you’ve got all those old issues (or trades in my case) to look at, you get to watch him grow as an artist. In roughly 36 issues, he’s come quite a way. When you go back to issue 1, you’ve got all of these bland looking people with oversized mouths and eyes. By now, there’s just loads of detail put into these characters. The characters have gone through some subtle changes, their appearance changing only slightly, as Alphona’s art has gotten better and better. My only real problem with the art is that these kids are supposed to be living on the streets. (Well, they’ve got a nice underground lair, but that’s not the point) So why the hell are they always dressed like the Donatella Versace catalog? Just saying.
As for the story, well…
Brian, I just have to know: What makes your teenager’s dialogue so realistic? It’s truthful. It’s honest. It’s not cheesy in the least. Like when I was watching Heroes the other day, I said to myself “Cheerleaders do not talk like that. I know because I am good friends with a few. Whoever wrote this show needs to spend a few days back in High School, so they can figure out that people don’t talk like that at all.”
You’re not actually doing that, are you? You’re not taping my conversations, right? Because I’m all for good dialogue, but that’s just creepy, especially when I don’t get to reap the benefits of you stealing my conversations. But wait! I live in Montana. You live in California. There’s no way you’re bugging me. Whew! That’s a load off of my chest.
*Spoiler!*Spoiler!*Plot Details!*Spoiler!*Spoiler!*
Of all the Runaways, I’ve never been a big fan of Chase Stein, but as the series has progressed, he gone from a douche to a COOL douche. He was just as ass up until he pulled that knife on Victor in issue ?, maybe 3?, Vol 2. Then I thought: Hey this guy’s kind of cool. And he just got more and more badass. He shot a freaking Doctor Doom robot. He killed a carjacker and talked tough to an extra dimensional drug dealer. But when poor old Gertrude Yorkes died, Chase went a little off the deep end. And that’s what this issue is mostly about. Chase is not in a good mood. I mean, he thought about killing that poor street kid! The guy’s a total creep now! You can see it in his eyes, (thanks to the stellar art of Alphona.) So what, is he going to kill Nico now? Because I really couldn’t handle that. The Nico/Victor romance has been one of my favorite aspects of late.
In other news, poor old Xavin is back to being the awkward comic relief, after having a great moment in the last issue, which is fine I guess. I wouldn’t want Runaways to become grim ‘n’ gritty. *shudder* It seems he’s destined to always be a little goofy, as he and Molly have a great conversation during a board game. He tries to explain to her why he’s always changing forms. After rereading it for this review, it even seemed a little sad.
Grade: A. If you’re not reading Runaways, you’re a communist.
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This thread is always active! We like to All-Week around here.
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...and...word.
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...go ninja, go ninja, go.
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I've always thought they had great characters and designs and ideas. Much stronger concept that the New Gods because it was a little smaller and easier to handle. I think he overreached with the New Gods, and it just never clicked for me. I know some folks around here seem very attached to the New Gods, but I'm hardly the first person to suggest that Ditko's work at DC wasn't his best. Inhumans, though? Classic.
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Any good tips on where there are some other boards that are heavily posted on that are just regarding comics???
Wizard doesn't seem like much, and I've only other wise been on the CGC boards. Was thinking about getting a bunch of books slabbed. What do you guys think? -
I dropped 52 at the halfway point. The book reads like the Island of Misfit D-Listers, except that sounds much too interesting a concept for this title. They cry, "Look, stuff happens when the big heroes aren't around!" Then, heroes unseen in years get slaughtered, proving to all naysayers once and for all that the World's Finest have bigger cocks than all other DC heroes. Oh, and Wonder Woman's got the most ribbed strap-on. Wouldn't it have been great if more of the creators had decided to each tell an epic story that would truly represent a year in the life of the DC UNIVERSE. Cracked open a Who's Who and said, "hey which of these characters could truly step up and fill the heroic vacuum," rather than "how many of these losers should I kill to build up the menace of Skeets through wholesale slaughter?" Think about it-- 52 comic books. Imagine telling Mark Waid, Geoff Johns, Greg Rucka, and Grant Morrison "You're each responsible for 13 issues that should match 'Crisis On Infinite Earths' in scale and best it for substance. Talk amongst yourselves. Greg, you want to tell a Question/Montoya story? Well, most of 'Watchmen'was a smaller mystery story with non-powered protagonists. Shoot for that. Waid, you want to tell the story of Elongated Man's fall and ultimate redemption against all odds. Sounds like 'The Dark Knight Returns.' Run with that. Geoff, I know you love this Black Adam thing you started in JSA. Why not take the license given in your 13 issues to tell your own "Kid Miracleman" saga? Oh, and Grant, you know that idea you had for the 7 Soldiers of Victory? Do you think you could pull that off in 286 pages? You the man, G!" Ever look at those timelines DC put up after Zero Hour through the Secret Files & Origins books? They would compress multiple multi-year runs in characters books to fit a subjective year's time. Imagine The Judas Contract, The Shadow War of Hawkman, The Trial of the Flash, and so on overlapping within weeks of each other in one intertwined narrative. That's what "52" should be. All killer, no filler. If Alan Heinberg can't tell anyone what he's got planned for his haphazard yet tepid "Wonder Woman" relaunch, then conceive the greatest Vixen story ever told instead and name drop Donna Troy once in issue #35. They should be sweating "how are we going to fit this into just 52 issues," instead of crafting Steel solo stories so bad they could have been pulled from a time capsule left by Louise Simonson & Chris Batista circa 1994. If Steel's going to be in "52," it better be like that moment from Morrison's JLA where, in place of armor, "I'm wearing the entire Watchtower!" This is a book that should launch 1,000 comics to follow, not make "Marvel Comics Presents" look comperably relevant.
I get a great discount for my comics online, so I think I'm out about $35 on 52. What I got for my money was a humorless retread of a swell Booster Gold episode of "Justice League Unlimited" that ended with the death of yet another JLI member. I'm beyond caring at this point, since that classic run will never be replicated, but did anyone bother to ask J.M. DeMatteis how he felt about that? DiDio keeps trotting out Keith Giffen to validate the scourging of those characters, forgetting Giff's the one who made J'Onn J'Onzz an (Oreo) junkie and Blue Beetle (and Booster) an embezzler. DeMatteis was the humanist who brought the endearing affection within the JLI to the table. Has he even worked at DC proper since "Formerly Known As...?"
What else I got:
The threadbare and uninteresting Batwoman revamp.
Doc Will Magnus, the least clamored for Metal Men character, boring the readership in ways Black Goliath never could imagine.
A retread of the Question/Huntress appearances from "JL Unlimited." Except Huntress makes more sense in the story than Montoya. Plus, there's the potential for romantic entanglement, or at least snappy patter. Oh, and writing by Gail Simone. Did I mention before that Cartoon Network gives me "JLU" for free, on television, with Jeffrey Combs providing a voice? Or that any single Ditko or O'Neil Question story was better than this entire subplot to date?
Natasha Irons, lacking all the charm and sass of Christopher Priest's take, hanging out with Lex Luthor and stand-ins for Infinity Inc. Infinity Incorporated. Let that swish around in your mouth for a moment before wretching uncontrollably. A KIDS Incorporated reformation would be better, especially if Fergie got killed by Skeets!
Oh yeah, the space opera. I keep forgetting that story exists. Wouldn't it be cool if Morrison turned that into "The Marvin Martian Manifesto?" Or a line of dialogue could be written where the balloon couldn't trail toward the mouth of any of the three main characters without anyone knowing the difference? Maybe its to soften the backlash when one of them finally dies already. When Lobo is a comparative oasis of character complexity, no one in space can hear you scream.
You might get from my ranting that I hate "52," but I don't. I even get itchy about dropping it at times. My problem was that it was so relentlessly functional, told with unimpeachable adequacy, that I could no longer handle the the mad journeyman skillz 4+ times a month. I do wish I could buy the Black Marvel Family stuff seperate, though.
P.S. I really like Steel as a character, but not here. I can handle Montoya as a new Question, I suppose.
P.P.S. Thanks for the kind words in that other Talkback, Buzz Maverick. It otherwise sucks to bother with a long post when it just gets completely lost amongst flame wars. -
Except that it was Jack Kirby who created the New Gods and the Inhumans, not Steve Ditko. :)
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Carmilla, though I might get my @$$ kicked for endorsing other boards, Newsarama and ComicBookResources have some good chatting going on. And don't forget the Bendis Boards at JinxWorld and the Millar boards at MillarWorld. @$$World.
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RKMBs is run by the guy who moderates the DC Comics message board but, unlike the DC boards, its free and fun, and discusses all sorts of things not related to Time Warner corporate shilling: http://tinyurl.com/7tsgt
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... Jar Jar 4 Prez. You mess with the bull, you get the horns.
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I bought this one yesteray where a female Daredevil/Deathstroke and Catwoman/Electra fight Kingpin/Riddler. Gad! What an awful story. Every single page was a gimmick. There were about 50 characters in it, and they all had to combine some characters. Oh well, it was only a buck. I also got me some old Mike Allred stuff. I want more. Right now.
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....
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As much as I am following '52', I wish they would resolve the issues between Batman and Zatanna. Is he going to forgive her transgression on him and what does it say about the character and how she 'behaved' back then, doing the dirty work of leaguers like Hawkman and Green Arrow.
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I loved almost all of Seven Soldiers (exception of most of Mr Miracle), and was disapointed with Sleazy's extremely negative review of #1, as well as the semi-drubbing it got in this here roundtable. So I was thinking that Jar Jar is like Cesar Chavez and me, I'm like a smart person who has serious criticisms about George Bush. Does anybody understand me?? Yeah yeah fuck you it's Monday, give me a break. so who's gonna finally explain WTF happened with JJ4P??
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Just so you know, that was Bug who didn't like SSOV #1. I had problems with it too, and said so in the roundtable, but the actual negative review was all Bug. As for resident "too smart for the room" guy JJ4P, he fucked himself. He'd been impersonating Mr. Nice Gaius by creating the same name with the . at the end but the real MNG didn't know who the impostor was. JJ came in and started arguing with himself using his normal and knock-off IDs. Since the talkbacks started maintaining your login name, though, this has become a little trickier. Apparently he was so busy owning all of us because he's so frikkin' smart that he forgot to change who he was logged in as, attacked himself using the same name he was logged in with, and tipped his hand. Once the real MNG saw it he went straight to The Powers That Be, explained the situation and got both names booted. Shame, really--couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. I mean that literally--if he wasn't such a douche it could never have happened.
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No computer access outside of work so I couldn't post anything since. Doesn't look like I missed much, what with that DC loveletter...sorry, "round table discussion". At least you had the decency to wait 'till CW is finished before ganging up on it @$$holes!
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Trust me, it's still a sacrifice of sorts.
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Does that mean i can go back to being non-stupid and non-owned?
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Thanks for taking the time to explain the JJ4P situation to the boys. It was no secret that JJ4P and I did not like each other. However, his little stunt has got to be one the most pathetic things I've ever seen on AICN. I hope you guys won't miss him too much...Cheers.
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When the whole thing went down i kinda came to the conclusion that you'd always been another JJ4P persona, so it's nice to see you're your own self suficient entity...that must feel good.
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For a new Walking Dead issue, don't you think?
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Okay, all that was pretty funny. I enjoyed those JJ4P discussions. They will go down as legend in the Cog Records. Or not.
I did enjoy Punisher's War Journal. Can't wait until he writes his next entry. Spider-Man was a bit odd with the "Check out Civil War's 5 & 6!", but still a good read.
Finally got to Blacksad. What an awesome work of art/noir. I love it. It finishes too soon ...
Time for CogSmooching Part 4 ...
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Ha! It feels incredibly good. And I imagine JJ4P is still in a state of shock over the amount of ownage he was served.
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If any of you guys saved his lunatic posts, feel free to send them to me in the Zone. That stuff is comedy gold.
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Punisher War Journal was horrible. Matt Fraction offing beloved villains in his first writing gig for Marvel and having Frank make X-Files references? Bleh. Marvel really jumped the shark on this one. Does anyone else think there'll be a huge dropping-off on Marvel once Civil War ends? Especially if they keep putting ou crappy new books like this. P:WJ feels like its the 90s again.
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Last page of Civil War #7: cut to the Watcher on the blue area of the moon. Watcher: "I hope you have enjoyed your look at the PARALLEL UNIVERSE that the Scarlet Witch created at the end of House of M. Now I return you to Earth 616, as the Fantastic Four discover a new planet and Peter Parker delivers some photos to J. Jonah Jameson."
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Yeah that sounds like a fairly appropriate Talkback death for JJ4P... pretty hilarious actually. I would say it confirms what a worthless tool he was, but it's not like there was ever much doubt. Oh it was Bug who reviewed it... shoot, sorry about that. I stand by my 'It was Monday' defense. Vale: yeah WD has been insanely late...lazy ass Kirkman...
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Have Rob Liefield do a splash page of Joey Q surrounded by beautiful women (wearing only the golden parts of that wretched spider-armor) and heaping piles of money, laughing his ass off.
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Why wearing anything at all?
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Nextwave!
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I got to meet him at Heroescon in NC
this summer. It was obvious that he was ill, but he was *extremely* kind.
And his take on the X-Men among others imo rocked really hard. RIP
Dave. -
Shame, I do like reading trolling
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cause the mystery and teasing is half the fun! plus it'd reinforce how utterly brain-dead the new design is.
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LOL LOL LOL
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I like Vic Sage the fanatic objectivist with crank politics. I like Vic Sage the blank slate reeducated in arcane martial arts by Peter Dragon, who then tried to hold up the sinking ship of Flint, Michigan-- Hub City or whatever. I don't like what Vietch did with him, and I almost don't mind the JLU's conspiracy weirdo. Vic Sage has good history, and he could be a nice thowback antidote to sidekicks with AIDs.
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Nice.
I like 52 the more I think about it. Some issues are more lackluster than others, but when you look back on it so far I like the story and where it's going. I hope that The Question remains alive as well perhaps with Montoya as The Answer or something else maybe not as gimmicky, but whatever. I like Steel as a character, but in this series he's too mopey. Skeets is an evil bastard he is. I forget about the heroes in space as well. The scientists on that island isn't my cup of tea either.
Shig, the Liefeld drawing with Al Quesada had me rolling man. "how utterly brain-dead the new design is." Ha! -
How bout that Minx?
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She's got spunk. That kid could really go places.
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Am I the only one to recognize John Bolton's Snow White? She's a chinese actress by the name of Shu Qi(hsu chi). Seriously...is this considered art? Taking a picture and photoshopping it. Compare the following image to the panels on page 26.
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/2812/shuqijohnboltonxx9.jpg
I'm pretty sure given enough time I could match up every panel of snow white to a real photograph of this chick. -
Yes. It is.
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Lastes.
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any way you could scan those pages? I haven't scene the book yet, but I'm curious to see the resemblance. Is it overly Greg Land-ish?
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Perhaps. Even that's funny because he has to resort to the open-for-anyone user name that he loathed because he was banned and owned. I've never seen someone get owned so much. Good times. Last.
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I must go now!
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No, I must!
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... That's my trademark
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Ali Larter is hot.
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http://www.comicspace.com/aicn_comics/