Ain't It Cool News (


Greetings, Faithful Talkbackers. I'm the Moderator, the omniscient and lonely voice of reason haunting the halls of @$$hole HQ. No regular column this week, folks. But that doesn’t mean the @$$holes aren’t keeping busy. The flavor of the day in comics, it seems, is crossover. We've got CIVIL WAR, ANNIHILATION, and HOUSE OF M over at Marvel competing with 52, ONE YEAR LATER, and INFINITE CRISIS at DC. Much has been said individually by the @$$holes in many a review about comics’ love affair with the crossover, but it's been a while since the 'Holes have gathered together to gab ad nauseum about something, so they thought that this would be a good occasion to do so. MODERATOR: Let's talk specifics first. Most of you have been following a few of these crossovers. Let’s get the ball rolling and talk CIVIL WAR...

HUMPHREY LEE: Well, the problem I immediately noticed about this whole CIVIL WAR nonsense is that, quite frankly, there's only three African Americans in sight, and hell, one of them is dead already!! That seems like a rather small amount of people to be going about liberating them...or wait, am I mixing that up with the other "Lets criticize American politics using classic American superhero types acting horribly out of character" riff that Millar always likes to use when he writes his comics? SQUASHUA: To toss something out on the giant pile of burning books, I have NOT been actively reading CIVIL WAR. I've been following it, but the only books I've bought (aside from the uninvolved SHE-HULK and NEXTWAVE issues) are NEW AVENGERS and (wait for it), FRONTLINE. I'm loving FRONTLINE. It's all the stories I'd want to read from CIVIL WAR, and they're paying some massively overdue attention to Speedball. Yes, I read NEW WARRIORS back in the day, what of it? BAYTOR: The one positive thing I’ll say about CIVIL WAR is that it perhaps has one of the more coherent through-lines I’ve seen in a major crossover event. I’ve never been a Marvel fan and I know zilch about any of the characters except the main ones, and I can follow it easily enough. I’m not catching loads of references to 20 year old stories (I know enough about Marvel to catch a fair number of those when they happen), so it’s a fairly “new reader friendly” event. PROFFESSOR CHALLENGER: I really do not believe the issue here involves one generation's definition of "good" versus a younger generation's definition of "good." The entire issue here has to do with the complete de-emphasis on character and elevation of plot to the level that there is no emotional impact other than the extreme disgust or extreme orgasm. Those going orgasmic over it are doing so because they literally do not give a shit about the individual characters. BAYTOR: You’ve even admitted to liking Millar doing virtually the same thing on THE ULTIMATES. The very clear division line you’ve made is that you don’t like him doing it in an established continuity, but for the fans who aren’t well-versed in that continuity, they’re going to accept CW as readily as they accept THE ULTIMATES. They don’t see the betrayal. Maybe Marvel should…but they see the dollars and chase the successes. If more traditional takes on their characters were selling better, they’d be chasing those bucks. SUPERHERO: Maybe we're seeing a trend where the big two just start doing one big event after another to keep the machine going. But what happens then? The fans get wise and fed up and leave and then we're looking at another comics implosion down the line. AMBUSH BUG: I think that HAS been a trend for a long time now. It’s just that the hype machine is bigger than ever. It started with CRISIS and the yearly X-Crossovers (MUTANT MASSACRE, INFERNO, et al). It’s just that now you read about it on the internet, see it on G4, read about it in NEWSWEEK and ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY. BAYTOR: I don’t think there’s a single thing Marvel can do to tarnish these characters. If they screw up, someone will just come behind them and undo it. The movies and video games have become far more important in this regard than the comics are likely to ever be again. SUPERHERO: You're absolutely right about that but the problem becomes when the characters become just brands to sell product. The characters will always be around in one form or another...but will they still be comic-book characters? PROF: For the last 4 or 5 years, Spider-Man and X-Men only exist for me as movie characters. The movies are the only place where the characters feel right to me. BUZZ MAVERIK: Other media do superheroes better than comic books. Fans of ULTIMATE GALACTUS think the original Galactus is ridiculous, but he's pretty cool even when he's spoofed in FAIRLY ODDPARENTS. SUPERHERO: Yeah, you're actually right about that. The Timm Batman/Superman/JLA cartoons were some of the best representations of the characters out there. It seems that other media seem to know what to do with the characters more than a lot of the comic book writers because they stick to what the core of the characters were about all along. PROF: Just because the fans are ignorant of the betrayal doesn't make it right on the part of Marvel. And neither does it make it wrong for those of us who recognize it to shout it from the rooftops so that the newer readers realize what's happening. If just a handful of newer fans rethink their positions and recognize the long-term implications in a publishing field that serializes characters (not plots), maybe the next generation of comics professionals will come from that pool as well brining some respect and balance back into the editorial leadership in a few years. BUZZ: When I first got seriously into comics, I was excited about finding back issues and learning what had happened before. Old events and characters were just more cool comics to read and it was all new to me. SUPERHERO: Hear, hear! But you might not be able to do that today like you were able to in the past. So many shops don't even carry back issues anymore. BAYTOR: Marvel and DC are on a course of diminishing returns, and a major part of that is that they’ve becoming virtually irrelevant in shaping the public opinion of their characters. No one aside from comic readers care that Reed Richards created a murderous clone of a Norse God… and even fewer people care that Black Goliath got killed. In five years time, the microscopic impact of CW will have completely vanished. BUZZ: But the same people would buy the comics no matter what went on. Comics are addictive. I steer clear of most of this shit, but damned if I wasn't in that store last Wednesday getting my copy of ESSENTIAL TALES OF THE ZOMBIE. In one form or another, comic fans end up hooked for life. PROF: I wish that were true. Unfortunately, once the company embraces the "new" characterizations, then that becomes the status quo and then in 5 years time we have Peter Parker finally having enough of J. Jonah Jameson and breaking his neck or some other twisted event to "shake up" the status quo. The bar keeps getting moved. Like Barry Farber has said for years: "Crime expands to fill our willingness to accept it." In other words, if we just keep allowing the wanton degeneration of heroic characters, then before long we have no heroes. BAYTOR: TIME Magazine called this during Superman’s 50th anniversary, criticizing the recent reboot for its adultification of juvenile fiction, noting that the average age of comic readers had already risen into the 20s. Until the day DC and/or Marvel decide to angle the product back toward the kids, the only thing I can really do is not buy this crap…and if they angle it back toward kids, I probably wouldn’t even be tempted to buy it. So, lose/lose. SUPERHERO: Lose, lose if DC and Marvel is all there is to read. Or if you're only interested in their core books. But honestly there's so much stuff out there right now...Vertigo, Manga, Dark Horse, Indies...that I don't feel that need to just read DC and Marvel anymore. BAYTOR: The entire mentality behind the crossover event is just more of the entrenching of the super-hero genre. The fanbase has been shrinking for a good long time, and it’s a tent-pole moment, trying to get them to buy (or, at least, get comic shops to order) as many books possible. Long-term, I’ve long thought it did more harm than good… but I can’t deny that I got off on the concept for three or four years. BUZZ: Well, these kind of comics aren't for kids, but they really aren't for adults either. BUG: I learned right and wrong from comics. SUPERHERO: Yeah, me too...oh, and the odd episode of DIFF’RENT STROKES helped as well. What? I was a latch-key kid...leave me alone! DAN GRENDEL: Yeah, comics taught me that you can hit people all you want and they won't really get hurt, and DIFF’RENT STROKES taught me that old men in bicycle shops want to rape you…ALWAYS! BUG: I think I became the somewhat moral person I am today because the heroes I read about in my youth WERE heroes and acted the part. SLEAZY G: Please note that Bug often uses the word "somewhat" when he actually means "slightly.” I've been working on it, but every time I tell him to look them up in a dictionary he just snickers at me for saying "dictionary". HUMPHREY: When I was in my pre-adolescence and then early teens I had some influence from guys like Spidey and Cap and so on rub off on me. But then later towards my twenties I would actually say that it was comics more like Gaiman's SANDMAN and BLACK ORCHID, Moore's TOP TEN, SWAMP THING, and WATCHMEN, and a slew of others that influenced my life. Spidey and them helped teach me right from wrong, but the others made me think and expand my mind…and, y'know, get me all fucking amped up so I'd start jumping around and banging my head and kicking stuff. Ahhh... kicking stuff. VROOM SOCKO: The comic that shaped and influenced me the most as a kid was probably either TINTIN (which taught me that one should stick up for your friends, question your surroundings, and that opium can be smuggled successfully in tin cans) or GI JOE (which taught me that loyalty and honor matter above all else and that ninjas garbed in black are cooler than anything you can think of.) BUG: The difference between Stan & Jack and today's writers is that today, heroism is something in need of deconstruction, dissassemblage. We have to ground our heroes these days. Stan & Jack gave the Marvel heroes weaknesses and humanity, but never forgot that they stood for a greater good. Today's writers seem to only see the chinks in the armor and neglect to notice how heroic and interesting these characters can be. BUZZ: It could be that comic heroes are going the way of the pulp heroes, into that murky moral ambiguity. The pulps did this close to 80 years ago. Of course, pulp writers and fans were less pretentious than we comic book aficionados. PROF: Except the Shadow never shot Doc Savage through the chest because they happened to be in a philosophical disagreement. DAN: Really? Aw, man, and I thought he was hardcore... PROF: It is possible to raise the maturity level in story-telling and still appeal to both kids and adults, but there has to be an awareness that cartoon pamphlets featuring idealized men and women dressed in circus outfits trying to make the world a better place is always going to be seen by most people as juvenile fiction. DAN: Out of all the crossovers I've read, this one strikes me as the one with the worst mischaracterization. You pretty much always get some characters acting kinda off in these things, but this shit is alternate universe-level bad. It's like a What If that Marvel decided they were gonna turn into a mini-series, but they forgot to tag it like that and won't admit their mistake. PROF: Exactly. If this were THE ULTIMATES? More power to 'em. If it were WHAT IF...? More power to 'em. It ain't and it was a flip of the finger to the longtime fans. SLEAZY: This has bugged the hell outta me too. Since the Ultimate Universe was first announced we've been told it was the place to do things they could never do in the 616 Universe. If Spidey had unmasked there I would have thought "wow, they weren't kidding--I can't believe they did that! That's cool as hell!" Instead, the minute fans got pissed about the unmasking we were told to go to the Ultimate Universe if we wanted to see the old-school wisecrackin' hidden secret identity version of Spider-Man. Whatta load of horseshit. SUPERHERO: I feel CIVIL WAR is cheap shock value. I've felt that since I read THE ILLUMINATI special that Bendis wrote. That's what initially set me against it. As soon as I read that I said to myself, “I am NOT spending one more dime on this event" and I've been able to stick to that despite my comic book addiction. BUG: I wish I were that strong. PROF: It takes willpower.....and a wife who won't give you comic money. VROOM: I think I've mentioned this before, but I just can't get past CIVIL WAR as an allegory for American politics. Stamford = 9/11, Iron Man = Bush, The Negative Zone = Secret CIA prisons, Sally Floyd = Keith Olbermann, Spider-Man = Valerie Plame, etc. etc... The story is just too close to the current political schism in the U.S. for me to enjoy any of it. SUPERHERO: See, I have no problem with comic books addressing current events or political issues. My problem is with, like you just said, when writers try and make existing characters "fit" roles so that they can tell the story they want to tell. VROOM: Exactly. I mean, DARK KNIGHT RETURNS was all about Reaganomics, but it was about Batman first and foremost. BUG: CIVIL WAR, in theory, interests me. I want to see these characters interact and acknowledge that they share the same space. The problem is that the main challenge these heroes are facing isn't really that big. All it is is a rehash of the end of the KREE-SKRULL WAR battle from the late eighties where Cap and Iron Man split due to the fact that one section of the Avengers thought it was a good idea to kill the Kree Supreme Intelligence and the other side disagreed, resulting in AVENGERS WEST and EAST COAST. PROF: Which makes more sense that beating each other into bloody pulps and killing Bill Foster. DAN: That's a good point. I was already somewhat blasé about the story in CIVIL WAR because we've seen the Mutant Registration Act before and DC has done the superhero identity thing in its JSA stories in addition to pitting people versus heroes in LEGENDS, but I hadn't considered the KREE-SKRULL WAR aspect. What I was hoping to see in CIVIL WAR was some new take on all of this that would keep my interest, and unfortunately what I got was characters acting way off kilter so they could be easily identifiable adversaries or make easy shock points. SUPERHERO: You're right Bug…the Cap and Iron Man split has been done before. Not only that it's been done twice that I can remember, the second time being in the 90's when Iron Man took it into his own hands to kill an enemy which actually ended up disbanding the Avengers for a while if I remember correctly. HUMPHREY: INFINITE CRISIS was great with keeping their people acting like they should, almost too much so in fact that the story suffered and felt terribly retreaded. CIVIL WAR on the other hand is actually a pretty high concept idea but telling it out of total concept with how the major player should be acting in this event. SUPERHERO: How is CIVIL WAR a high-concept idea? HUMPHREY: I think it is one from a fallout perspective. It's the concept of the registration side actually trying to turn this into a police force. It's not just a little spat, we're talking an entire army of registered and ranked superheroes patrolling the planet if the Reg-side gets its way. But this point is horribly understated in the overall story because we keep getting lost in "Iron Man and Cap hit each other cause they angry!!" PROF: Personally, I think it's a low concept idea. Two factions of heroes squaring off over a political disagreement just smacks of appealing to the lowest common denominator. Imagine instead what would'a happened if all the Marvel Heroes gathered on the lawn at the Capitol Building and basically said, this act is unconstitutional on its face and we choose not to abide by it. Cross us at your own risk. A combined and united front of super-powered force facing down a corrupt government trying to control the people through fostering fear of the heroes. THAT'S high-concept. BAYTOR: Millar characters feel a bit flat to me, but that’s a common failing in all of the work by him I’ve read. Lord knows Ellis’ AUTHORITY wasn’t filled with deep characterization, but Miller turned them into cartoon cut-outs of themselves, and nothing in WANTED ever made me feel the slightest bit sympathetic or interested in *who* those people were. I’m not terribly surprised to see Millar shoe-horning existing characters into the character types he needs to tell his big story. Even though I don’t care one whit about any of these people, I do find the central plot reasonably engaging, although at times totally laughable, such as Invisible Woman’s letter to Reed, which is completely devoid of any emotional outrage. The emotional stakes just aren’t there. It’s just pieces moving around on a chess board. BUG: And that's why I dislike this series so much. Millar has made it so that NO ONE can NOT be on one side or the other. You are either pro registration or not. All of a sudden, these characters are killing each other with little or no development at all. They're just fighting it out and not in a "heroes fight, then team up to fight a common foe" type of fight. They're fighting it out and making both sides look bad. When I put down CIVIL WAR #4, I didn't know who to root for or if I cared to do so because Millar is writing both sides as truly ugly people. Iron Man's a fascist. Cap's a stubborn brute. Hell, even Spider-Man is looking like a spineless lackey. If this was your first experience reading a Marvel comic, you'd think there truly are no heroes left in the Marvel U. SUPERHERO: I think that's the inherent problem with CIVIL WAR and Millar and/or Bendis writing in the mainstream Marvel U. They bring their Ultimate sensibilities into the game without realizing that they just don't fit into the history. BUG: Yeah, it's ego. Cap's comment in the latest CIVIL WAR is pure Ultimate Cap, not the real Cap. But since Ultimate Cap is the only Cap Millar knows, he writes him that way. BUZZ: None of the ramifications of CIVIL WAR are unthinkable, but their impact would be greater without the crossover. I want things to constantly be shaken up in each comic. If Peter Parker had decided to go public with his identity for personal reasons as part of an AMAZING SPIDER-MAN story, I might have given that a Keanuish "Whoa!" If Sue left Reed because he was tampering with the forces of unnature in THE FANTASTIC FOUR, I'd say the same thing. And if an issue of the FF had Reed cloning Thor, I'd say...that's pretty fucking stupid even by comic book standards. But the thing is, current Marvel wants to go grand and glorious with the whole universe, when they don't really put out interesting individual issues of individual comics. Work on one issue at a time, guys. SUPERHERO: Yup. You nailed it on the head. Maybe they should focus on making the core books interesting instead of using a mini-series to be the catalyst that causes change which ends up seeming forced anyway. In a regular book it might come across as a natural progression of things given time and would cause just as big a stir. BUG: Exactly. It's all about these major changes and status quo shake-ups. Spidey's unmasking. The New Warriors are dying. Iron Man's making Sentinels. Sue Storm's leaving Reed. All the while, someone forgot to put an interesting story in there somewhere. When all you have are shake-ups and cliffhangers, you don't have much of a story. DAN: That's pretty much what I was getting at with my comments about the small crossovers that used to happen between a few books. In small crossovers, each shaking of the tree can have the exploration it deserves in the forum that best suits it, and the inclusion of some other characters can still serve to stimulate sales in other books and draw new readership to books they may not have been aware of or just didn't care about. The vast majority of the Marvel Universe was introduced to me through guest appearances in other books or team-up stuff. The problem with massive crossovers is that you lose the impact of each important changeup or shocker because they fly at you too quickly, you get overloaded, and often the really important stuff gets lost behind cosmic fights and blasting. BUG: And kicking. HUMPHREY: Ahhh…kicking. PROF: Oh and don't get me started on the illogic of the cloning of a freakin' GOD! There are a couple of things I deliberately left out of the review and one of them was the utter stupidity of that idea based on a "hair" that was captured by Tony way back in AVENGERS #1. Guh! DAN; Come on, Prof, don't be an old man. Odin the All-Father went to Earth, and had sex with Jord, an avatar of Gaea, just to give birth to a son who combined the powers of Asgard and Midgard. Out popped Thor. Big deal, modern science can copy that shit no problem. BUG: Yeah, I did something similar in 9th grade chemistry with a bunsen burner and some Pop Rocks. SLEAZY: I disagree. VROOOM: About the Pop Rocks/Bunsen burner thing being the key to cloning a god? SLEAZY: No. I think that cloning Thor is the most brilliant stroke of all. Now that it's happened, we can safely extrapolate that Genius Fascist Tony and Genius Fascist Reed have an interdimensional breeding tank full of multiple duplicates of anybody they've ever been in a three-mile radius of. This means that Bill Foster can come back whenever they want. Gwen Stacy? Back! Her old man? Back! Every single Norse god to die underwhelmingly at the end of the last THOR run? BACK! BACK! BACK! Oh man, is Hulk gonna be PISSED when he comes back to Earth and finds out he's already here! BUZZ: They may get into this, I dunno, and they should work Dr. Strange into this kinda story. But if they're cloning a god, they are invoking a magickal entity which is very dangerous without the proper protections, binding and banishing rituals. In witchy circles, Odin (Wotan) frequently shows up... The forces at work in this story would be incredible, which may give them a way out of all the crap they've slung. As much as I'm against some of Marvel's decisions, I think that since they're out there, they should explore them to the limit. PROF: One thing that Stan definitely got right was his ability to recognize the value of a "shared" universe but not to the point of absurdity where heroes are literally tripping over each other throughout the various titles. It was just little things like if Spider-Man needed a lawyer, Matt Murdock would show up and maybe just a blurb pointing out to the reader that Matt's secretly Daredevil (in case the reader didn't already know). Which Stan also knew MIGHT get that previously uninformed reader to pick up the Daredevil title and try it out. BUG: Yeah, my first crossover was CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS. That series showcased the characters strengths and made me want to seek out the books of other characters in the Marvel U. So far, CIVIL WAR has highlighted all of the characters weaknesses, not strengths. It makes me want to drop titles rather than pick them up. PROF: Nah. CIVIL WAR is maybe more of a fanboy orgy than anything else. No way no how does some pedestrian off the street pick this thing up and like it. He or she'd wonder where the heroes are because it reads like a world taken over by super-villains. BAYTOR: I’ve never been much of a Marvel reader and don’t even know who half these characters are (first time I ever encountered Black Goliath), and I’ve got a clear sense of things…although Spider-Man’s new costume and Thor are mild questions in my mind. Perhaps because I don’t have such a deep knowledge of Iron Man and Captain America and Mr. Fantastic, I can accept these imperfect people without thinking that they’re super-villains. If anything, I find the notion that super-heroes should have the right to act as unlicensed vigilantes to be a completely morally dubious position, and that’s entirely dependent on accepting the genre conceit that vigilantism is just good, clean fun. BUZZ: That's the archetype. Thinking too much about what superheroes do in the real world leads you back to the fact that there aren't any superheroes in the real world. BAYTOR: I think the shared universe thing is more of a young man’s game. When I was in my early 20s, I just couldn’t get enough of the interconnectedness of the DCU and was buying all manner of crap just to keep up. At some point, I just had that moment of realization that I wasn’t liking most of those interconnected titles and came a couple of titles from quitting comics altogether (SANDMAN and PREACHER). CW isn’t terribly good, channeling a lot of better comics from the 80s and 90s, but for folks who haven’t experienced those earlier books or cross-over events, CW is probably really exciting. They can be enthusiastic about it, because they don’t see the Invisible Giant Rubber Band that’s going to return everything back to normal within a couple of years. SUPERHERO: You seem to think that CIVIL WAR is bringing in all these new readers, but is it really? I'll tell ya, when I go to my's not a young crowd that's picking up the comics in shops these days. The guys who are picking up stacks of books are all around my age. You wanna know where I see kids reading comics? In the manga isle at Borders. BUZZ: Maybe Marvel editorial wants to be young and hip again. PROF: And thin. BUG: We're our own worst enemies. We complain about this and that. We piss and moan, but at the end of the day, I'm going to finish out this CIVIL WAR miniseries. Am I going to like it? Will I want to read ANY Marvel books after it's over? Will I even recognize any of the characters I grew up knowing and loving? All signs point to “NO” at this point, but who knows? BAYTOR: I doubt anything superhero based is bringing in *that* many fans these days, much less the cross-over events. But just looking at the reaction on various message boards, the newer fans *are* enjoying these things a lot more than the Old Farts. At one time, I thought ARMAGEDDON 2001 #1 was one of the best comics I had ever read… I just never saw this sort of thing before. Super-heroes were acting in ways they never did when I was a kid. Superman was executing people, for god’s sake. Heroes were being killed off by the truckload. I didn’t know what was going to happen next and I loved it. But that love didn’t last, and within five years I started seeing the patterns. Within a handful of months I went from collecting the great bulk of the DCU (and this was the mid-90s, so that was a *lot* of books) to two or three DCU books. I was done with mediocrity and I would never find myself enthused by a crossover event again. And I think that’s the path a lot of today’s fans are on. CW is shiny and new to them and they dig it… and four or five years from now, they’ll either be out of comics completely or focusing on better quality titles. BUG: Or using it as a punch line like we use HEROES REBORN or THE CLONE SAGA, which if you all remember, were pretty big hits when they first came out. BUZZ: I think the shared universe faded a little when it became clear that current Marvel editors and writers don't read Marvel comics that they weren't personally involved in making. HUMPHREY: I dunno, these are characters have been around seemingly forever and simply put, they get stagnant from time to time. Sometimes you need that little kick in the @$$ to get things going and give something for the characters and the readers to chomp on. And I see why they do it, because it seems like you can't sell a book on quality alone. It's all about hype. You can't convince people they should be buying something synonymous with quality (FABLES, EX MACHINA, THE WALKING DEAD, etc.). BUG: The real problem is that the wrong people are writing these event books. I just read the latest issues of Brubaker's CAPTAIN AMERICA and Straczynski's AMAZING SPIDER-MAN comics and after reading their takes on the events in this crossover, I'm convinced THAT'S who should be writing these things. SUPERHERO: Marvel just needs to rein their writers in a bit. Not too much but it seems like no one at Marvel Editorial ever heard the word "NO" before. BUG: Marvel has capable writers who don't go for flash or shortcut character for story. They have Ed Brubaker, Brian K. Vaughan, Zeb Wells, Dan Slott, Jeff Parker, Dwayne McDuffie in their stable. They just aren't using them for these things because they aren't in this little ILLUMINATI of their own consisting of Quesada, Bendis, Millar, Bendis, Jenkins, Bendis and Quesada. It's a shame. HUMPHREY: Honestly, what I think is going on with the writers can be broken down into three parts. On the one side you have these writers that think they're bigger than the characters. What they say goes and it doesn't matter if their voice fits the characters because the characters are just toys for them furthering their hair-brained ideas. What Millar is doing with CIVIL WAR is a prime example of this. Then you have guys that show way too much respect and take such a "we're not worthy" approach to these guys to the point where they try to make their favorite character the coolest guy in the yard like it'll re-affirm their childhood or something. And then lastly you have the guys in between the other two. The guys that know, love, and respect these characters, but they also know how to write damn good stories that actually *gasp* take these characters down a few new avenues and show a little evolution on their part. And we're seeing this through Brubaker's runs on books like DAREDEVIL and what Slott has been doing with SHE-HULK and THING. We really need more guys in the middle. BUZZ: It takes caring about what you do. Maybe they do, but it doesn't seem like it. Every editor should be required to read each of the house's books (and they'd be smart if they read the other guy's, too). It would seem smart for a comic book writer to read as many comics as possible. DAN: I'm actually not against crossovers in general, or even CIVIL WAR in particular. I'm a proponent of whacking the beehive every few years. What I disagree with is the idea that to create new interest a company has to change characters intrinsically, or reshape the universe. Some of the most effective crossovers I've seen took place within the pages of only two or maybe three books, where a challenge was presented and a host of characters reacted to it and learned from it and were affected by it. BUZZ: Crossovers are becoming today's polybagged, variant foil bagged covers with trading cards.

MODERATOR: What do you guys think of some of the decisions Marvel editorial has made about their flagship characters such as Spider-Man's unmasking, another disassembly of Avengers, the break-up of Reed and Sue?

DAN: More out of character bullshit, for the most part. As far as the Avengers falling apart again, I didn't even notice. They haven't even been back together long enough for them to register as a team yet. CIVIL WAR came way to hard on the heels of DISASSEMBLED for me to care if the Avengers fell apart again right now. Reed and Sue have a history of arguing over minor crap but agreeing on the big ideas. Occasionally, Reed gets caught up in something and Sue points out that he needs to get his head out of his ass- AND HE DOES. She's even bailed on Reed before, when he shut down Franklin without talking to her about it. Guess what? I'm thinking Reed has learned to pay pretty damn close attention to Sue. She's his conscience. But Spidey's spent literally decades hiding his identity specifically to protect his family from the hordes of freaks who hate him. The whole Aunt May marrying Doc Ock thing was all about that, and any time anyone learned Peter's identity it was a huge deal because of how intrinsic that secret identity is to the idea of the character. BUG: I think all of this is just a continuation of the unmasking of DAREDEVIL arcs in his own series. There we had a status quo shattering event that could never be fixed without disappointing the fans who stuck through it. SUPERHERO: I do have to say though that Bendis made that work for me. It's always seemed like they'd figure out a way to clear Murdock's name which seems to be the direction Brubaker's headed right now anyway. Spidey unmasked in front of the whole world on television. That's a goof that's gonna be hard to fix. BUG: Spidey unmasked is wrong on so many levels. It screams of short-sightedness past whenever this regime at Marvel is over. The only way any of these characters can redeem themselves after CIVIL WAR is to have Iron Man and Cap captured in some bunker with the Taskmaster and the Hate Monger wearing Cap and Shellhead's costumes manipulating the whole thing. And that shit won't fly with today’s audience. Sooner or later, Scarlet Witch will swoop in or the Cosmic Cube or the Beyonder will be utilized because the writers have painted themselves into such a corner by mischaracterizing them and a return to status quo will be necessary. VROOM: The thing is, even that won't be satisfying. Now that we're where we're at, to have this all be the fault of some single super villain would be a massive storytelling copout. SUPERHERO: I'm fine with change. I really have no problem with it. With CIVIL WAR, though, the whole thing is completely forced. Everything every character is doing comes across as being done because of a desired final result, not because of how the story is flowing on its own.

MODERATOR: You guys have been pretty vocal about your dislike of CIVIL WAR and a lot of decisions Marvel editorial has been making recently, yet reports indicate that Marvel is still top of the heap when it comes to sales with high spikes coinciding with the release of CIVIL WAR. Why do you think CIVIL WAR is so popular with the readers?

SUPERHERO: Hype. In the words of Public Enemy, "Don't believe the ..." PROF: I think it’s because there's a good 30,000 or so short-sighted dumbasses out there who get some sort of personal satisfaction by flushing their money down the toilet and arguing that it entertains them. Then there's about an equal number of folks out there who buy anything with the name Marvel on it whether they enjoy it or not. Then there's about an equal number of people who buy it because they are the slow-motion-train wreck type of people. The rest are probably fans who buy each issue hoping against hope that it's all gonna get "better." Add that up and you have a successful sales number. The problem with that is there's no factoring in of "new" readers and nobody factors in the number of customers who finish the series and then give up on Marvel because of the bad taste left in their mouths. Short-term gain = long-term loss. HUMPHREY: I don't know if I'd be that broad. New readers that don't know much about these kinds of "events" see that there's this HUGE shakeup going and they become giddy about them. They haven't gone through a dozen or however many of these events as we have so they don’t know they usually just end in much wailing and gnashing of teeth. BUG: I can't rip on the readers that much. I'm still reading this stuff and I don't like it. I guess it has a lot to do with the fact that I grew up with these characters. Even though I dislike the direction Marvel is taking them right now, I'm still around. I think the reason readers are buying this in droves is that they too desperately want to believe in these heroes. I think we as reviewers are harder on this stuff because we have to wade through hype and fandom to look at the thing objectively. And I have looked at CIVIL WAR objectively. I bought it with my own money. I read it. And hell, there were some little details like the little umbrellas Sue and Johnny make for themselves as they leave the Baxter Building in the rain, that I enjoyed. The art is top notch, so at least they're making the uglification of all of my childhood heroes look pretty. PROF: I don't think it's a "rip" on the readers so much as recognizing how the corporate mind manipulates the "fan base." They understand the reality. The readers should recognize and understand it too. You surely remember your own teen years when you ran into total Marvel Zombies...excuse me...Zuvembies. Or the DC Geeks. Or the title nuts - those that obsessively collect only X-MEN comics or something. DAN: Well, whether Millar's characterization blows or not, his writing is technically solid, and the books have been fairly exciting. The art is gorgeous. Plenty is happening that has widespread effects in the Marvel universe, as advertised. BUZZ: McNiven's art is excellent, at least technically. Millar is a fine writer, as well as coming across as a genuinely cool guy with a message board where you can get a sense of community. Some of the action is quite good. And comic books are an addictive drug. What if heroin addicts had to take another drug for the H to continue being effective? CIVIL WAR isn't for new readers or old readers. It's specifically for readers at that stage where they buy, read, and love it all because it's a comic book. Call me weird, if I was Marvel, I'd want everyone's money. But, guys, if CW is cutting edge change, what does that say about monthly Marvel Comics? As a fan, I want things shaken each book, all the time. It shouldn't be a marketing gimmick. It should be standard operating procedure.

MODERATOR: And what about Marvel's other big crossover/event that's going on, the intergalactic space-opera ANNIHILATION?

VROOM: ANNIHILATION? Never heard of it. DAN: Is that the one where the Hulk got shot into space cuz he was a dick and landed on Rome and became Spartacus and is gonna come back with gladiator worshippers to beat the fuck out of Reed for being a douche? PROF: Hmm. I read the ANNIHILATION prologue, all four issues of SUPER-SKRULL, the first issue of NOVA, and two issues of SILVER SURFER. What I read was decent. I thought it was an "event" that smartly broke up into individual characters to move the story. The threat in ANNIHILATION was one that could affect the entire Marvel Universe, but they allowed the main titles to cruise along without having to tie into the events. It was smartly planned and I thought well put together. BUG: For the most part, I've been pleased with ANNIHILATION simply because it is being handled by Marvel editorial in the exact opposite way they are handling CIVIL WAR. Little hype. Few crossovers into other titles. Strong storytelling using characters to tell a story, not bending them to fit a means to and end. The way the whole thing built up these characters in each miniseries first, then threw them all together for the big war was a clever way for me to get invested in some characters that otherwise I wouldn't have given a shit about. But look who's writing it, Keith Giffen. An old schooler who understands the medium, its possibilities and limitations. SUPERHERO: Haven't read ANNIHILATION at all. By the time I was done with HOUSE OF M Marvel expected me to get into TWO crossovers??? WTF??? Man, those guys have got some nerve. I've heard it's interesting though. Figures that the crossover with less hype would be the one that I might enjoy. But I won't pick it up because I'm soured on the whole crossover thing as it is. BUG: ANNIHILATION is not a perfect story at all, but it appeals to me because in that it respects these characters and takes them in directions I've never seen. These guys may not be the ones on the lunchboxes, but they've been stagnant characters for years. This series is keeping them recognizable, but evolving them to the next level. Super Skrull - a reluctant hero. Silver Surfer - rekindles his allegiance to Galactus. Drax looks over a young girl because he was never able to do so with his daughter Moondragon. Nova - no longer a dimwitted teen hero, but now a seasoned battle-proven warrior. BUZZ: I'm sorry, Bug, but Nova will always be a dim witted teen hero. We're talkin' Ashton Kutcher in THAT 70's SHOW as a Human Rocket! BUG: These are changes in character, but they are natural evolutions that occur in the face of a war. They aren't divvied up to one side or another without consideration for their character as in CIVIL WAR. The writer's understanding of the character guides the hero or villain down his path and a good story comes out of it. HUMPHREY: See, ANNIHILATION I actually enjoy. Firstly, because it wasn't beaten into my head that "YOU MUST BUY THIS OR ELSE WE'LL SHOOT YOUR KITTEN!" It was put out there, it's a fun story albeit not very unique, and is actually handled somewhat tightly by the guys doing it. The characters are behaving exactly like I'd expect them too, and are showing a little bit of growth here and there, it's action-packed, has some decent drama, and you never really know who's going to make it or not. BUZZ: And is Marvel supporting it? Cynical comic book company hypes cynical comic for cynical fans. HUMPHREY: It's getting a fair share of support, but it's more of the variety of occasionally Joe Q in a Joe Friday's or whatever will drop the occasional "Oh, and ANNIHILATION is heating up this week, make sure you check it out." SQUASHUA: Notice what Reed Richards and Tony Stark are doing with the Negative Zone prison? I think we're going to see CIVIL WAR tie into ANNIHILATION from this angle. SLEAZY: I just don't see why we needed Reed to devise a Negative Zone prison for his friends (yet another example of how poorly characterized he is) when they already had the miniature prison Hank Pym devised over in SHE-HULK. They already had a perfect, in-continuity metaprison, and it was designed by somebody we already knew was a total douche. Using that option would have left Reed's reputation partially intact and reinforced the douchenozzlyness of Yellowjerkass all in one swell foop. That's how you maintain continuity and characterization while telling the same general storyline: bend the story to fit the characters and the existing Marvel Universe, but don't warp the characters and the Marvel U to cram them into the constraints of the story you've decided to tell. BUZZ: Could it be possible that Millar and whomever it editing CIVIL WAR don't read SHE-HULK? Nah, comics are their business so they're up on these things! SQUASHUA: They didn't use the excellent Pym Prison because (1) Reed needed to invent something besides Clor and (2) using the Negative Zone will eventually tie this to ANNIHILATION. Mark my words; all three events (CIVIL WAR, ANNIHILATION, and PLANET HULK) will tie together. SUPERHERO: Really...if the Hulk comes back to kick everyone's ass...that may be the coolest freaking thing ever. Seriously. Just so long as he actually does it and doesn't hold back...Tony, Reed, and all those jackasses deserve to have their skulls punched off for what they did to him. SQUASHUA: I'm tellin' ya. Hulk is going to get sucked into Annihilus' army and into the Negative Zone, come crashing through that prison, free everyone, and step out onto Four Freedom's plaza and drop kick Stark right through Reed's flexible asscheeks. Full circle, baby. DAVE FARABEE: Hey @$$holes, just passing through and thought I’d throw out a cent or two. BUG: Hey guys, it’s Dave! All: DAVE!!!! DAVE: I've heard your sentiment about the Hulk expressed from a number of readers, and even if tossed out partially in jest, to me it indicates Marvel has won. See, while some fans might be consciously aware of the fact that all the gross mischaracterizations of Reed, Tony, et al. stem from cheap, shock-tactic writing, on a subconscious level they're starting to accept those characterizations. Suddenly, it's not Millar and Bendis who need to be reigned in for eroding the heroic ethos, but the characters themselves who need to be punished for their bad behavior. Victory for Marvel! Hulk's gonna come back and probably WILL kick the asses of his fellow heroes as never before, and now instead of readers wondering at how unpleasant it is that a one-time hero like the Hulk has become a full-fledged villain (I bet we'll finally get some overt killing this time), they'll be thinking, "The heroes brought this on themselves." And they'll probably be excited to watch them get their "just desserts." It's very clever, very insidious, though honestly, it may well be the smartest way for Marvel to maintain an adult readership that makes a crap audience for the genre's conceits of heroism. I guess the new level of heroism will be when Reed or Tony have the *courage* to admit that, oops, yeah, they *did* became Gestapo fuckwads for a while there. Readers will nod, teary-eyed and touched. "It's SO true. Acknowledging that you're a scumbag is the bravest thing a person can do in a world of shit." SLEAZY: That’s some cent he tossed out. BUG: Smells like victory with a hint of fanboy. BUZZ: I think that the problem is that Mark Millar, a smart guy, writes very much what his audience wants. You're absolutely right. We fans get into debating the moral decisions of fictional characters, forgetting that they make whatever decisions the creative team chooses.

MODERATOR: We've heard plenty about what Marvel has done wrong with CIVIL WAR, but the truth is we're all still reading Marvel titles and we're all still enjoying Marvel titles. So even if we're not on board with CIVIL WAR, what Marvel comics are you digging right now, and what about them makes them worth checking out if somebody's looking for an alternative to crossover fever?

VROOM: My favorite right now, is Fabian Nicieza's THUNDERBOLTS. I love, love LOVE redemption stories, (and I hope to read one about Wanda soon. Yes, I'm still bitter.) The path that Nicieza has given to Helmut Zemo is nothing short of enthralling. HUMPHREY: CABLE/DEADPOOL is always fun. And pretty much all the main X-team's titles are pretty stellar now (which is the first time in a long time). Ennis' run on the MAX PUNISHER series is fantastic. It's funny what you can do when you just let writers write and don't try and make everything out to be some giant "must read" event. BUZZ: ESSENTIAL TALES OF THE ZOMBIE VOL. 1. The fact that the current Marvel regime reprinted these horror mags redeems everything they've ever done wrong. Taking a cue from the DC SHOWCASES, this one reprints articles, ads, promos, prose pieces and reviews as well. SQUASHUA: You picking up AGENTS OF ATLAS? I know I'm going to get some shit for saying this, but AGENTS is like NEXTWAVE - EXTREME!!! - CATCHPHRASE!!! + HIP + ACTUAL CONTENT. PROF: The MIGHTY MARVEL WESTERNS this summer were beyond fantastic -- they made me feel like a Marvel Fanboy again as I read them. SUPERHERO: Well...everyone knows of my unabashed love for SPIDER-MAN LOVES MARY JANE but that may change after Miyazawa leaves the book. Everything Brubaker is doing is just gold for me. DAREDEVIL, CAPTAIN AMERICA, and his X-book are just great. I just love Brubaker. BUG: I’m loving the miniseries BEYOND! It’s like a crossover but without any characters that have their own series. Writer Dwayne McDuffie is really kicking ass and making some obscure Marvel characters cool all over again. Marvel really has been doing a great job with a lot of their miniseries this year. ARES is another mini that rocked my socks off.

MODERATOR: Well, there you have it and if you made it to the end of this lengthy meeting of the minds and are itching for more, the @$$Holes are planning another discussion focusing on DC’s crossovers/events coming soon. Until then, how about you all keep the roundtable rolling in the Talkbacks?

Readers Talkback
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  • Oct. 12, 2006, 8:56 a.m. CST


    by teddanson37

    i'm sorry i couldn't help myself

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9 a.m. CST

    civil war?

    by teddanson37

    who doesn't enjoy flushing their money down the toilet? i know i have on all 29 civil war titles i've purchased. in fact, i'm about to head out to the comic shop shortly and flush a few more dollars just for the sheer zeal one gets from being a fanboy.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:07 a.m. CST

    New charity: Marvel Artists missing front teeth

    by Sinestro

    I guess you don't need front teeth to draw.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:28 a.m. CST

    I will wait for the trade paperback before I consider

    by Sinestro

    purchasing it.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:38 a.m. CST

    Civil War Thought...

    by Pogue__Mahone

    I'm kinda left in the cold, too, with all the overt out of character stuff being thrown at us and the lack of emotional resonance in the series... but the art HAS been great and there've been a few cool 'what the fuck' moments. And I saw Spidey's changing of sides coming AGES ago! So... what will be the turning point in this 'War' that will make everyone wise up and realize what utter douchebags they're being? It's gonna be another major death! Look. Joe Quesada has often stated that he wishes Peter and Mary Jane had NEVER gotten married. Even their 'seperation' a few years back didn't last because that was intrinsically wrong for two characters who genuinely love each other. And we can't forget that one of the single most defining moments in Spider-Man history is, of course, the death of one Miss Gwen Stacey. Which leads to the point that Stark has a squad of villainous lunatics as a strike force - Green Goblin, anyone? He's gonna off MJ (And come on! Wouldn't it be SHOCKING if Aunt May bought the farm, too!?)What better way to change opinion than with this horrific tragedy!? The public will realize that the Act is wrong - Peter, by obeying the law and being brave and honest exposed himself to the EXACT fears that the opposition voiced... and lost EVERYTHING in return.. just by doing what he thought was 'right'! And the so called heroes - especially those that knew and loved MJ - will realize that they've been wrong too. That even the best intentions can be misled. And the heroes fighting will lead to the inevitable heroes team up to bring down this law. There'll hopefully be some lasting ramifications - friendships sundered, trust lost forever. But that, kids, is how I'd end it all! Hire me, Marvel.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:48 a.m. CST

    You guys are hilarious

    by speedom

    BEGIN RANT I always read the comic book stuff on AICN and I always get the same impression- That you guys are hopefulessly attached to a certain period in comics history and can not let it go. Every good review on here references the fact that the comic in question recalls comics of old, usually 60s Stan and Jack stuff, or the 70s. It's the only thing that you seem to look for is this old time feel. I can enjoy old comics but I enjoy new comics as well. I'm enjoying current Marvel and Civil War and I certainly do not feel like I'm some kind of idiot "Marvel zombie" or that I'm flushing my money down the toilet tricking myself into thinking I'm being entertained. How condesending is that? I for one have always been annoyed at the status quo in comics and have felt that comics worlds should change, like the real world. I felt like the events leading up to Civil War made sense and in fact, it was ridiculous that some young super hero hadn't had a hand in accidently killing tons of people and that there wasn't outrage over it. This was a logical, exciting idea to make a change in the world and plot. And guess what: PLOT SHOULD CHANGE CHARACTERS! Why should Reed Richards still act like he did 40 years ago? I know that's only something like 10 years marvel time, but I don't act like I did when I was 16. I feel like it really is about stories and there is room for classic style stories as well as more realistic grimmer tales. I love Dan Slot, I love Brian K Vaughn but I also feel like Millar, Bendis, etc can craft a good story. And I think that most people out there agree and are content to sit back and enjoy it without frothing at the mouth every time someone changes. The truth is, you're dealing with characterizations that were created by committee. Stan Lee didn't know everything about Spider Man when he created him, he evolved over time. The events in his life shaped him. And many many writers chose those events and portrayed how it would affect him. It seems like the @$$holes are intent on only focusing on the character choices they enjoy but guess what, in a serialized comic there is no platonic ideal of Spider Man. He is the Spider Man that is being currently written. You don't own him. END RANT.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:49 a.m. CST

    That sir, is one massive mega-review...

    by loodabagel

    I'll have to read this at lunch time.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:54 a.m. CST

    different audiences

    by moscow3055

    As a comic reader with me they're reading marvel adventures or trades of the ultimate spidey stuff....if ya wanna drag new readers in, those are the places it's gonna happen. Civil War is purely for us older fan-boys (like it or not)

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:57 a.m. CST


    by Hellpop

    with you 100%

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10 a.m. CST


    by Hellpop

    I taught a bunch of high achool aged kids this summer, and before classes there where groups of them pouring over issues of Civil War . . . and *gasp* half of them where girls!

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:05 a.m. CST

    Just logging in to give Squasha shit:

    by chrth


  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:07 a.m. CST


    by Pogue__Mahone

    Yes, chrth... Nextwave also gives me that weird tingly feeling inside - kinda like when I used to climb the rope in gym class. Pure, unadulterated fun.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:10 a.m. CST

    The only shit I got is from my name being misspelled.

    by Squashua

    SquashUa. The U stands for Uranus. What did I say in the second paragraph? I'm picking up and reading NEXTWAVE, but I'm not on ritalin, so I can appreciate AGENTS OF ATLAS too. See my upcoming AGENTS OF ATLAS #3 review where I compare the two. I think this week's reviews are delayed till next week.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:13 a.m. CST

    quite a cent indeed

    by kisskissbangbang

    Everybody made cogent comments here that I pretty much agreed with wholeheartedly, but Dave just swooped in for a moment, made the sharpest, most perceptive one of all, then swooped back out & into the ether. C'mon, Dave, don't tease us like this! Get back into the fold on a regular basis! Don't be a asshole! Uh...I mean, do be an Asshole! (Though you don't have to resume being Cormorant, cool & comics-like as that would be, like Nomad becoming Cap again.)

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:18 a.m. CST

    How can anyone side with the Pro-Reg side now?

    by TheAFLACDuck

    I mean aside from the fact that they're using the Negative Zone against other heros (why not have done that to all the Super Villains who were waaaay more troublesome in the past?) ... but now it looks like Stark is going to send arch-criminals out against the Anti-Reg group. Like using freakin' Bullseye and The Green Goblin to get your point across? Hmmmm, just seems way out of character. So exactly, how can you go back from here without a complete Universal mind-wipe? The Hulk coming back and kicking everyone's ass is an idea ... but what then? Is he going to say a Cosgrove-esque, "Everyone knock it off!" and both sides will say, "Aw Shucks." and kick the ground a little. Anyways, either way you look at it, Spider-Man unmasking himself was a stupid move ... that much is clear.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:22 a.m. CST

    Does Spider-Man wear a mask anymore?

    by Sinestro

    Just curious. If he still does, then why?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:35 a.m. CST

    you're right

    by biscuit turner

    Every single one of us buying and enjoying Civil War is a deluded idiot who gets great joy out of watching a foul-tempered Scot and a loud-mouthed New York EIC piss all over everything you love about comics. We use stacks of Byrne FFs as toilet paper and light cigars using original Kirby art gleefully stolen from the master himself. <br> Look, I'm unhappy about some changes at Marvel (I love Powers and USM but find Bendis's Avengers terrible, House of M was a disaster, Kirkman sucks on UXM) but I like Civil War.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:34 a.m. CST


    by moscow3055

    Hey my kids read Civil war as well...i'm just saying i'm guessing the HS kids reading Civil War didn't pick it up as their first read. My personal children (i teach as well eh) didn't start out with Civil War...they eased into it. And I'm just saying regardless of the bad characterizations, I don't think we should judge Civil War by it's ability to interest the little folks.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:39 a.m. CST

    Million Dollar Question...well technically two?

    by moscow3055

    regarding Civil War...Can I "enjoy" reading something that totally craps on the last 20 years of continuity? I guess I now recognize what the term guilty pleasure means. I don't think the car-wreck analogy is completely accurate here though. Cuz the whole point of this exercise is to entertain while a carwreck is a accident (cue the snide folks to call Civil War an accident. So if we enjoy reading Civil War and recognize that fav characters are acting abnormal at best, do we need to feel dirty?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:50 a.m. CST

    Millar's characters have no voice other than his

    by Steve Rogers

    It's true. They are all utterly indistinguishable and talk like him. Everyone in Ultimates, Civi War, Ultimate X-Men (back in the day), Wanted... it's all depressingly predictable. The ass-fucking of characterisation in favour of big bangs and stupid plot developments is all that his writing promotes. Shame.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:53 a.m. CST

    Amazing Roundtable @$$es…

    by The Heathen

    Maybe the best ever so far. DAVE!!! All that was missing was Schleppy and him mentioning the lack of Dagger's panties. ;) <br> <br> So many things to quote, but here are a few of my faves: "Yeah, my first crossover was CONTEST OF CHAMPIONS. That series showcased the characters strengths and made me want to seek out the books of other characters in the Marvel U. So far, CIVIL WAR has highlighted all of the characters weaknesses, not strengths. It makes me want to drop titles rather than pick them up." <br> <br> And <br> <br> "It's very clever, very insidious, though honestly, it may well be the smartest way for Marvel to maintain an adult readership that makes a crap audience for the genre's conceits of heroism. I guess the new level of heroism will be when Reed or Tony have the *courage* to admit that, oops, yeah, they *did* became Gestapo fuckwads for a while there. Readers will nod, teary-eyed and touched. "It's SO true. Acknowledging that you're a scumbag is the bravest thing a person can do in a world of shit." <br> <br> Bravo.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:12 a.m. CST

    Let Marvel grow...

    by Zebtron A. Rama

    -Civil War has been a hoot. I echo Speedoms comments to the rant above. Ya'll need to relax and enjoy the fun, or move on. My only reccomendation would be for Marvel to make it easier to locate the related titles within the greater story timeline. Some system to keep track of this would have been nice. I'm still not sure when the last issue of FF took place. -Annihilation is great as well. (except that Ronan thing) I love me some cosmic goodness, and lord knows all these charaters needed some life pumped back into 'em. -Planet Hulk on the other hand lost me. I just like some Banner with my Hulk. Not a bad story mind you, I just never liked Gladiator movies.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:17 a.m. CST

    Identity and Infinite Crisis were BULLSHIT

    by Steve Rogers

    I'm a DC fan as well as Marvel, but that shit was practically impenetrable. The one thing Civil War HASN'T fucked up is that it is all pretty understandable and you can follow it in just the one series (although a lot of the side series, as mentioned above, are better). 52 is even more of a DC continuity wank. Boring.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:31 a.m. CST

    I knew I wouldn't like Civil War when I read Illuminati

    by rev_skarekroe

    So I haven't bought any of it. I quit reading "New Avengers," and I haven't even thumbed through a copy of "Civil War" or it's crossovers. I'm sure I'm happier man for it. (OK, so I've bought some Planet Hulk stuff, but I'm a sucker for when they throw the Hulk into crazy out of this world scenarios. Sue me.)

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:36 a.m. CST

    And speaking of Marvel crossovers...

    by rev_skarekroe

    Has anyone read "Ultimate Power" #1? I wasn't able to get to my local comic store yesterday.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:40 a.m. CST

    the list of the marvel illuminati is...

    by teddanson37

    by far the funniest thing i've ever read! bendis really sucks. well everything i've ever read by him sucks. ultimate spidey is pretty stinking borring. at least the first twenty issues were. i mean it's interesting but it's seriously overrated. and i have to admit the only thing else i can remember reading of his was his run in ultimate x-men that killed beast for shock value and brought in like eight new characters and spent about half the time following wolverine around as he hung out with spidey, daredevil, and some kid who had the mutant power to kill people. i don't think i ever need to read another word that man puts in to print.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:47 a.m. CST

    Enjoy the fun?

    by The Heathen

    Pardon me, but just what the fuck is 'fun' about it? The killings in Stamford? The dark politcal themes? The splitting of 'heroes' into different factions? The killing of Goliath? The unmasking of Spider-Man? The carelessness shown by Tony and Reed? The serial killers in the new Thunderbolts? I call bullshit. A hoot? Fuckin A.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:52 a.m. CST

    @$$hole quotable:

    by The Heathen

    "The only way any of these characters can redeem themselves after CIVIL WAR is to have Iron Man and Cap captured in some bunker with the Taskmaster and the Hate Monger wearing Cap and Shellhead's costumes manipulating the whole thing." <br> <br> And even that's pushing it.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:54 a.m. CST

    A Testimonial: CW got me into comics

    by greatmoose

    I think the @$$holes area waaaay offbase. I never read comics at ALL until Civil War came out. Not a one. Saw the ads for VW and thought it was REALLY interesting. So I got the first ones. And loved it. And have kept up with it since. Also, I have since gotten into the Ultimates universe, Captain America, and the Punisher ina big way. I am a NEW reader and CW got me INTO comics. Thanks CW. PS: The a-holes really do need to move out of the past.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 12:04 p.m. CST

    Hate Monger

    by Squashua

    I've been a proponent of Hate Monger as a theory since day one, ever since I read Earth-X.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 12:12 p.m. CST


    by The Heathen

    Glad to have you in comics, but in a few years something like Civil War (hopefully not) is going to come along and your going to be fed up with it for doing what it's doing and running all over everything that your sacred Civil War did. The @$$holes were quite clear that if CW was taking place in the Ultimate Universe (where shit like this was supposed to happen) then they could roll with characters acting, well, not like themselves because it's a playground for stuff like that. They confess to liking The Ultimates and what not (not to mention a multitude of other works not in the big 2's central universes). Marvel is doing the exact opposite and it seems to be for no other reason than just to piss off their longtime fans. Why? <br> <br> Why?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 12:28 p.m. CST

    Hatemonger as the big bad.

    by moscow3055

    Don't ya think that's kinda the easy way out on this one? Personally I think they've kinda painted themselves into a corner with this one....regardless of wether ya like it or not it'll be interesting to see how they think they can resolve this effectively. Damn Reed and Tony are coming off like total asses in this. I mean even if ya agree with the registration aspect of it...just cuz ya register a gun doesn't mean that the government can tell ya how to use it...and that seems to be the easy resolution to this whole messy thing. "Yes I'll register but don't draft me" would make everybody happy...somebody tell me if this was addressed in one of the fifty million side books. Totally agree Front Line is the cream of the crop (was speedball a ditko creation?)

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 12:30 p.m. CST

    So Civil War is Like Season 5 of 24?

    by tonagan

    (runs away...)

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 12:34 p.m. CST

    I like the Hatemonger idea

    by rev_skarekroe

    Which means there's no way that's what'll happen.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 12:49 p.m. CST

    I also like Buzz's idea for the ramifications...

    by rev_skarekroe

    ...of cloning a God. Which means nothing like that will ever get mentioned.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 12:56 p.m. CST

    For the G.I.Joe fans out there...

    by slone13

    <p></p> <p>Pretty funny.</p>

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 12:58 p.m. CST

    You gotta remove the space between the 'c' and 'h'...

    by slone13

    ... in the link above.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:03 p.m. CST

    Wow Dan

    by Tito Trinidad

    I WAS hoping the hulk would come back and kick ass. AND I was hoping the Defenders would join him, but now I just feel manipulated. Good thing I am not buying this crap. I think the main difference between the DC and Marvel as far as characterization goes is the fact that many of DC's character's are more well known outside of the realm of comic books than Marvel. As such they probably bring in more licensing revenues. Therefore, if a DC editor isn't reigning in the writer who wants to do a Superman as a transvestite prostitute story, SOMEONE at Time Warner will. This of course doesn't explain the unmasking of Spidey. And c'mon I don't think that wanting decent characterization is a generational thing. It's a good writing thing.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:05 p.m. CST

    Without ignoring all the crap that's happened…

    by The Heathen

    Marvel obviously doesn't care about mixing/messing stuff up more and more over the past few years especially, so why not just leave the characters alone for 10 years Marvel time and a few months in the real world (I know they'd hate to give us time to reflect on the Marvel universe's state of being and not have the sales for a month or two) and then seriously retcon their books. Kingdom Come style, but not Elseworlds. Have it really happen. <br> <br> Say it's been a decade and you have all of these old characters that are new again, some dead, some back from the dead, some new. Plenty of new books, a lot of the same old ones, but now you have a whole decade of stories to tell much less just a year. It's drastic, but besides Brubakers books, AXM and Runaways I'm sick and tired of the way the Marvel Universe PROPER is and dif things continue along the same course there's not going to be a Marvel anymore. And fuck the Ultimate line. It will never be the proper Marvel and what's wrong with having established characters with morals and tradition? Marvel won't allow smoking but favors a more violent and non heroic model for their superheroes? I'd take a chain smoking Wolverine anyday over a prick like they've made Tony Stark who makes deals with killers. More on that later.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:08 p.m. CST

    Sorry SquashUa

    by chrth

    I had it right the first time, but with the TB system unperfect ... anyhoo, did I mention Nextwave is LOVE? ... finally, didn't comment earlier, but great convo guys. Love Dave's appearance. It's funny, I don't even need to read CW, I can just read these columns and I'm all caught up.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:20 p.m. CST

    re: Tito Trinidad

    by The Heathen

    "And c'mon I don't think that wanting decent characterization is a generational thing. It's a good writing thing." <br> <br> Well said.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:46 p.m. CST

    Kudos to...

    by sideshowbob

    Whoever edited that bitch. However, it doesn't really make for the most compelling roundtable when everyone agrees with each other.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Kudos to...

    by sideshowbob

    Whoever edited that bitch. However, it doesn't really make for the most compelling roundtable when everyone agrees with each other. Not one @$$hole likes Civil War or could at least stand up for Millar/Brevoort just to play Devil's Advocate?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:53 p.m. CST

    That said, I like Civil War

    by sideshowbob

    Why? I don't know, it's generally well-produced even if stuff is hapenning so fast it's a little head-scratching to watch the characters change on a dime like this. But you know what it's made me realize? I don't give a shit about these characters at all. In fact, I can't even remember why I EVER gave a shit about these characters. Aside from an occasional fluke here and there, when's the last time ANY of them have been particularly sympathetic in ANY book? It's a lot more fun to read these nu-Marvel comics completely objectively with zero attachment. If that's what Marvel wanted, they got it. Whether or not this is a noble goal is another story, but it's made for some entertaining stuff.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:55 p.m. CST

    These long-standing characters are like...

    by sideshowbob

    That box of toys in the doctor's waiting room that are all grimy and broken from too many kids smashing them against each other and leaving the mess for the next kid. It's smart to stay away from that box of toys, and likewise it's smart to keep your emotional distance from the Big 2's company-owned characters.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 1:59 p.m. CST

    And lastly,

    by sideshowbob

    I knew it would only take a dozen or so posts into the talkbacks before someone came through with a "DC roolz Marvel sux!" post. Guess what? These companies are exactly the same fucking thing. From their business model and their approach to their characters and their history to the fact that they share much of the same talent, the similarities between these companies far, far, far, far, far, far outweigh the differences. The sooner some people realize this the happier they will be.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:03 p.m. CST

    I'm on Speedom's side

    by Braner

    New fan here (and isn't that what everybody says this industry needs?) Civil War is entertaining. Real people like it. I could do without any crossovers too (in fact i do, minus frontline) but whining about the character changes makes you sound pathetic. If the book is entertaining thats all that matters. Oh yeah btw, Bendis is better than all of your favorite comic writers from the 70s and 80s at writing dialog.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:12 p.m. CST

    Disney should get into superhero comicbooks

    by Sinestro

    Disney should buy the Shazam/captain marvel rights from DC. New blood needs to enter the comicbook store. Old men cannot support this business for long. Will comicbook stores be around in ten years?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:14 p.m. CST

    Yeah, but…

    by The Heathen

    DC faltered on the production while staying true to their characters voice and Marvel has great production but has stripped their characters of everything that's made them heroes. None of them are perfect, hell, I'd probably go with Marvels characters if it weren't for how they've been handled save for Vaughan, Bru and Whedon that is. But DC currently has me invested back into Batman, Superman , Green Lantern and the Justice League because they're handling them better finally.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:17 p.m. CST

    "Real people like it."

    by The Heathen

    Blow me. <br> <br> Oh, and welcome to the world of comics. Bendis is responsible for me being called a Cog Smooch, it's true.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:20 p.m. CST

    Suggestion to the "Professor"

    by PoPoZao

    Stop reading comics, you pompous ass. Seriously. Do I watch TV shows I think are horrible? Do I finish a book after the first shitty twenty pages? No. Is bitching so much fun that you torture yourself with comic characters that don't act like you think they ought to? Get your wife to start giving you Valium money and tell her to stop with the comic money. Jeezum Crow.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:24 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    Why? Kids like anything. If they've never read a comic book before, they have jack-all to compare it to. ********* As much as Civil War is bugging me, I almost shot soda out of my nose in gigglefits when you guys suggested Dan Slott should be writing all the big Marvel crossovers. Guys, he's alright, but stop riding the guy's junk each week. "Thing" was not that good, and he's even expressed dissatisfaction with the series himself. But I guess that's because "disappointing Slott" still = teh awesomeness!!! And you make fun of "Bendis!" proponents for being delusional.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:30 p.m. CST

    @$$hole quotable:

    by The Heathen

    "I'm fine with change. I really have no problem with it. With CIVIL WAR, though, the whole thing is completely forced. Everything every character is doing comes across as being done because of a desired final result, not because of how the story is flowing on its own."

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:37 p.m. CST

    Slott would be fine…

    by The Heathen

    for writing Amazing Spider-Man though. Maybe not a huge crossover event, but he IS capable of writing some more serious stuff. Like Issue #4 of She-Hulk. <br> Bendis is quite good when he's edited. Which leads to another @$$hole Quotable: "Marvel just needs to rein their writers in a bit. Not too much but it seems like no one at Marvel Editorial ever heard the word "NO" before."

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:35 p.m. CST

    Yeah, I got to admit

    by sideshowbob

    The Thing was below expectations and I've finally dropped She-Hulk after the last few issues have felt a bit too "mailed in". Not to mention I hate, hate HATE "will they or won't they hook up?" stories, which is basically what She-Hulk is becoming. That said, if I were Marvel EIC, I'd put Slott on Fantastic Four in a cocaine heartbeat and Amazing Spider-Man even faster.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:35 p.m. CST

    Combining Ultimate and 'Regular' Marvel U....

    by CarmillaVonDoom

    How come no one has mentioned this? The resolution from what I have heard reported is that the two universes will 'collide' at the end of Civil War and -gasp- "nothing will be the same again" "Not everyone will survive" etc. etc. Now THAT sounds like a train-wreck to ME. ;^)

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:51 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    I'd put Slott on "Amazing Spider-Man" too.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 2:55 p.m. CST

    Hey everybody here's an idea

    by Shigeru

    Liking or disliking Civil War is an... wait what are they called? Oh yeah, OPINION. If a Talkbacker has started reading comics because of Civil War and is enjoying it a lot, just let him. It doesn't mean he's a fucking nazi asshole who swerves to hit the squierells instead of avoid them and pees on nuns (okay that was random). Let's debate and talk about it... but let's remember that it's a debate about whether a story has artistic merit or not, and that ultimately is up to the reader, no?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:01 p.m. CST

    No, Shigeru

    by Ribbons

    I will blast a hole in your chest! Rarrrrgh!!!

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:05 p.m. CST

    To the Negative Zone with you Shigeru

    by TheAFLACDuck

    ... 'cause you totally know that's what Iron Man would do to ya ;)

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Awesome round table guys

    by Darth Kal-El

    i have personally not been following this latest 'event' because of the bad taste left after house of m and secret war but i really liked reading everyones take on this. great job once again @$$holes! and buzz the line about nova being ashton kutcher from that 70s show as a human rocket had me rolling!

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:20 p.m. CST

    Civil War sucks AXM rocks and Nextwave is LOVE

    by DOGSOUP's like shakespeare with lots more punching. It's like Goethe but with lots more crunching. It's like Titanic but the boat's still floating. No it's not! The mother(honk)ing boat is exploding!! NEXTWAVE! Seriuosly though I never thought I'd say this EVER but The X-ecutioners Song is better than Civil War. I feel dirty now...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:29 p.m. CST


    by The Heathen

    I agree wholeheartedly.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:40 p.m. CST

    I didn't even read the article...

    by nofate

    yet I know exactly what I missed "blah, blah, Iron Man and Reed Richards are acting out of character, blah, blah, comics today don't have any original ideas, blah , blah, I'm a gun-toting republican and I take offense to anyone speaking their mind on any topic that contradicts my views and especially if it's printed on a comic which I decided to seek out, pay for and read".

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:40 p.m. CST


    by johncage

    Sounds like the "Prof" is unclear as to what 'high concept' actually means.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:44 p.m. CST

    "Real people like it"

    by Tito Trinidad

    What the heck is that supposed to mean? Seriously. Anyway, people seem to think that CW is some profound statement on world events but to me it just seems to be a multi-series long version of Wizards "who would win if x fought y"? And characterization IS important. Man, I used to buy X-Men faithfully awhile back but I stopped. Know why? There was an issue where Rachel Summers was on her way to kill Selena(?) the life force vampire lady. Wolverine goes to stop her from killing her(what!?!) and in doing so he shoves his fucking claws in her guts. Nevermind that one of the main appeals to that sorry-assed character was that he was one of the "heroes" that killed and i'm sure on more that one occasion he went on a few revenge missions himself. But also he tried to kill Rachel to keep her from killing someone else. That's characterization so bad it doesn't even make sense. So when you see Iron Man and Reed siccing a bunch of crazed, murderous(and drooling)supervillains on people who are supposed to be their friends, you have to wonder if they are being mind controlled or if the writing sucks. Actually, either way it just sucks at this point.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:45 p.m. CST

    I do have a question for the new comic fans who...

    by superhero

    have been introduced or re-introduced to comics because of Civil many of you will stick with reading Marvel or comics in general after it's over? Did Civil War get you interested in comics as a medium again or just this event in general? Will you still be reading books in 5, 10, 20 years down the line? I'm asking seriously here...not trying to bash anyone.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 3:53 p.m. CST

    nofate, dude…

    by The Heathen

    Read it first off, and secondly, I know we've had our differences but I'm not a gun-toting Red Stater and I hate, hate, hate the way things are going in Civil War. Civil War is so bad that it makes HoM look better and I hated HoM, but looking back I 'almost' wish I didn't. The @$$es even give examples of the books that they like tied into Civil War and most of them favor Annihilation too. Read the article bub. <br> <br> "So when you see Iron Man and Reed siccing a bunch of crazed, murderous(and drooling)supervillains on people who are supposed to be their friends, you have to wonder if they are being mind controlled or if the writing sucks. Actually, either way it just sucks at this point." <br> <br> Word, Tito.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 4:12 p.m. CST


    by Tito Trinidad

    Thanks man.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 4:33 p.m. CST

    No problem.

    by The Heathen

    You couldn't be more right and unfortunately that's the problem huh? No matter what - it sucks. Comic books are known for crazy fixes that make pulling rabbits out of hats look like childs play, but this is some serious painting into a corner here - on multiple levels. From Spider-Man umasking, to the misrepresentation of Reed and Tony, to the Registration Act. It's all too much. Fans can take Batman's back healing from some sort of mystic woman or even wanda saying those three words, but I don't know about Civil Wars ramifications and I do mean RAMifications becuase they've been so heavily forced. Crap.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 4:41 p.m. CST

    I quit...

    by loodabagel

    For now. This thing is seriously freaking me out right now. I'll be back when we start talking about Marc Silvestri or old videogames.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 4:50 p.m. CST

    You guys really ARE assholes!

    by Zardoz

    I for one, am enjoying CW so far, but I'll reserve final judgment on the series when it's actually FINISHED! Since we haven't seen the whole picture yet, how can you tell what it's going to be until it's done? And the more accurate real-world comparison to the negative zone prison is Gitmo, not Abu-Gharib. Oh and, based on some asshole's recommendation, I went out and bought Ultimate Spider-Man #97-100, and guess what: it sucks. It sucks BIG-TIME! So boring I almost fell asleep reading it. As to Millar's other work, I liked Wanted very much, and even though it's not quite done yet, Ultimates 2 may be the best comic book of the 21st century, and DEFINITELY the best post 9/11 comic. Just freaking AWESOME: the story, the characters, the ART! WOW! I can't wait for the conclusion in #13. And so you know where I'm coing from, I liked Infinite Crisis, (better than the original Crisis, even. I know, "Blasphemy!" you say) and 52 is much better than I expected so far, and it may turn out to be the best of the bunch, as far as the crossover books go...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 4:50 p.m. CST

    You guys really ARE assholes!

    by Zardoz

    I for one, am enjoying CW so far, but I'll reserve final judgment on the series when it's actually FINISHED! Since we haven't seen the whole picture yet, how can you tell what it's going to be until it's done? And the more accurate real-world comparison to the negative zone prison is Gitmo, not Abu-Gharib. Oh and, based on some asshole's recommendation, I went out and bought Ultimate Spider-Man #97-100, and guess what: it sucks. It sucks BIG-TIME! So boring I almost fell asleep reading it. As to Millar's other work, I liked Wanted very much, and even though it's not quite done yet, Ultimates 2 may be the best comic book of the 21st century, and DEFINITELY the best post 9/11 comic. Just freaking AWESOME: the story, the characters, the ART! WOW! I can't wait for the conclusion in #13. And so you know where I'm coming from, I liked Infinite Crisis, (better than the original Crisis, even. I know, "Blasphemy!" you say) and 52 is much better than I expected so far, and it may turn out to be the best of the bunch, as far as the crossover books go...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 4:52 p.m. CST

    sorry for the double post!

    by Zardoz

    I don't even know how that happened...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:02 p.m. CST

    Just Outta Curiosity-

    by LawyersGunsandFunny

    What are everyone's ages on here? I'm representing 24.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:03 p.m. CST


    by Tito Trinidad

    Explain to me how Infinite Crisis was better than the original Crisis. No bash, it's just that to me IC was confusing, the art was bad most of the time, there were instances of off kilter characterization(there's that word again!) and Superman I and II flew through a red sun without burning to a crisp. Not as bad as CW but I was definitely disappointed. To me the original Crisis had a concrete idea and purpose behind it and it was executed a lot better. Thoughts?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:04 p.m. CST

    my age: a gentleman never asks and a lady never tells..

    by Zardoz

    Let's just say I'm older than 18 and younger than 100...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:06 p.m. CST

    Civil War is the worst crossover in comics history

    by IndustryKiller!

    End of story. Thank God no one likes it except newbies and morons. With newbies its fine, you dont know any better. But if everyone enjoyed civil war I think it would finally be what put me into an asylum. Its so fucking awful on every level that it blows my mind anyone at Marvel editorials could think its worth the paper its printed on. Millar should be dragged out into the street and shot for producing such piss poor art. What they fail to mention in this talk is how much of a failure CW is as political allegory. It is both painfully obvious and painfully uninsightful. Bush is acting stupid you say Mr. marvel? Yeah we all know that already, got anything else to add? Like maybe an argument or show the effects of that kind of poiliticing? Didnt think so. Its childlike and one dimensional in its portrayal of real world events, its exactly this kind of story that comics are seen as a childs medium. It drives me nuts that Stracinskis SPider-Man seems to have fooled them though. Stracinski has been killing that character slowly an d painfully for years now and his work in Civil War is no different. I mean Peter Parker revealing his identity was because of a latent homosexual crush on Tony Stark, at least thats the only coherent thing one could gather from Stracinskis writing. And my God his reasoning for Reed Richards behavior must be one of the worst plot devices in this entire crossover. Instead of writing something that fits Richards character (which would have been tough given none of his actions justifiably fit his character) they write some heretofore unknown uncle that was blacklisted by the government. Whats funny about that is that would be a reason he would act in the exact opposite manner. Richards entire motivation is "you cant fight city hall". I mean youve gotta be fucking kidding me, one of the most brilliant minds on the planet says you cant fight powerful men??? Umm last I checked this was the guy who time after time has beaten the greatest villain mind in all of comic books (Doctor Doom) and toppled a world eating metagod. And this of all men is saying you cant stand up to a corrupt human government, nor should you even when they are obviously corrupt? Of all men this is the guy saying you should just sit back and let injustice fix itself? Its insane people actually get payed to write this shit.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:14 p.m. CST

    My age

    by Tito Trinidad

    I am 34. I started reading(or looking at the pictures) my brothers collection in the late '70s but I did not start buying my own books until 81 or 82 when I got hooked on the New Teen Titans. They were fighting some animated hindu statues with Hawkman or something. I remember buying an issue of X-men around that time but didn't get into them until Paul Smith started on art duties. Heady times man, heady times...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:15 p.m. CST

    Original Crisis vs. Infinite Crisis

    by Zardoz

    I thought the original crisis was bloated and too much of a "traditional" kiddie, comic book. The art is great and there are some awesome dramatic moments: the deaths of Flash and Supergirl, but it seems to be much ado about nothing. Whereas the new crisis turned the events of the original on it's head: the heroes of the original are now the villains, and everything has a consequence. At the end of the new crisis, everything was changed and definitely not for the better. The art in the original was more consistent, but still too traditional. I liked the different styles in the new one, and some of it was really innovative, IMO. That said, I didn't think EITHER one was perfect...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:18 p.m. CST

    Painted Into A Corner or How Fans Were Mislead

    by The Heathen

    "if the Hulk comes back to kick everyone's ass...that may be the coolest freaking thing ever. Seriously. Just so long as he actually does it and doesn't hold back...Tony, Reed, and all those jackasses deserve to have their skulls punched off for what they did to him." <br> <br> I agreed with that at first, but then I thought about it. 7 or 8 months ago I totally would have disagreed because why would Mr. Fantastic and Iron Man need to be smashed? Reed is pretty happy, nothing too major has happened with him recently. Tony reformed the Avengers with Cap and they were just about to start avenging stuff again when that "The Other" story-line happened in Spider-Man. Which was completely forgettable even though Peter technically died in it. The one thing that came from that story that has stuck is Tony and Peter's weird relationship. It started normal, but then Peter put on that stupid looking suit (which can change form to anything Peter wants it too btw) and felt he owed Tony something. He started calling him 'boss' about five times an issue (it was later mentioned in an aside that he does it just to annoy Stark - bullshit) and following him like a lap dog. Tony even put a hit out on Spider-Man and Spidey knew it! But did nothing accept follow his every order. We all know where it led him - to having great power and responsibility let go for just the great power when he unmasked himself. A move that outraged pretty much anyone that has an understanding of what Peter Parker as Spider-Man stands for. Where the fuck was his common sense, much less his Spider sense? Then the Registration Act came into the forefront and Stamford happened. <br> <br> Iron Man and Reed sent Hulk into space with no concern for his life or the life of anything else. Why not put him in that Prison Camp in the negative zone or anything like that? Oh, because the fact that Reed is actually building a prison camp to hold heroes is retarded. How many innocent lives will be lost because there aren't any heroes to stop the criminals just because they aren't registered? Tony has let loose a group of serial killers to bring heroes to the justice of the Registration Act. Let loose VILLAINS to capture HEROES. You read that right. He also supplied Reed with the hair to clone a God and we already mentioned his hit he put on Spidey. <br> <br> All of this was within a year real time and even shorter Marvel time. <br> <br> What happened though and is still happening is as insidious as Dave said it was. All of these actions are in place for a story with certain plot points and unfortunately the characters are being randomly chosen. Tony Stark builds weapons right? Reed Richards is super smart. Let's have them do this!!! We should all want the Hulk or the X-Men or anybody to come and lay the fuggin Tonny Jaa elbow down on Tony, Reed, Peter, etc, etc, but not really. See, I know that these characters would have never have done a lot, if any, of these things, so can I really hate the characters? No, not when it's forced like this. Disassembled led into HoM which led into Decimation and The Other and Planet Hulk while Civil War and Annihilation where beginning. All at once. There wasn't any room to breathe. These characters actions weren't developed. All I'm asking for is a couple of years, anything for proper character development. We got months, even weeks. Don't fuck with me or these established characters that way. They deserved to be treated better and so do the fans. <br> <br> If you're going to be mad and want the Hulk to smash anyone, it really should be the editors and writers who let this happen be the ones who get smashed. I feel cheated and tricked into feeling a certain way and that's worse than just telling a bad story. It's low. Is it so hard to just tell the truth Marvel? Are both sides represented balanced? Hell no. Is the Marvel Universe proper now the test ground for stuff like this in which you said the Ultimate Universe was created for 6 years ago? It shouldn't be. Think about the future, the long run, not just immediate. That's all I got in me. You've got a house built on solid foundation and eventually it will fall.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:25 p.m. CST

    re: Just Outta Curiosity-

    by The Heathen

    I'm representing 24 too, but I love Lost, Heroes and Blade as well. ; )

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:27 p.m. CST

    im repping 29

    by Darth Kal-El

    and my first exposure to comic books was gi joe comics in the 80s.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:27 p.m. CST

    I think the most hilarious thing about Civil War...

    by Ribbons

    ...was Sue's letter, wherein she copped to screwing Reed before she left in the middle of the night so that they could end their relationship on a happy note. That part was too ridiculous for me to even get mad at.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:30 p.m. CST

    Crisis vs IC

    by Tito Trinidad

    See I disagree. First I believed then and believe now that George Perez is one of the best draftsmen in comicdom and one of the foremost storytellers. The original series cemented his rep as someone who could handle large numbers of heroes(or villains) on a page. While I prefer him inking his own work or having Romeo Tanghal do that chore Jerry Ordway was also an excellent choice. Having the art switch from him, to Jimenez to whoever else in IC was jarring at times. Second, man that series changed a whole lot! At the time it eliminated the multiverse and was the catlyst in rebooting some of the most well known and enduring icons in comics(Superman, Wonderwoman and Flash anyone?) I think it was a precursor to how crossovers are now(for better or for worse) in that real wholesale changes are expected in the aftermath. While I thought Secret Wars and Contest of Champions was cool at the time. Crisis really made an impression on me

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:31 p.m. CST

    I want marvel to respond to this roundtable and talkbac

    by IndustryKiller!

    You hear that Marvel? Everyone hates your crossover. If you get a group of fanboys to agree wholeheartedly on something then its probably a pretty safe bet its true. I dont care if you are making money, you've lost all artistic credibility. How do you explain yourselves?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:35 p.m. CST

    I'm back! And now, a question...

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    Who is drawing comics with no teeth? I read that a few hours ago and can't stop thinking about it...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:36 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    For your edification, a truncated interpretation of how Marvel explains themselves, by Ribbons: "Money talks, bitch!!!"

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:38 p.m. CST

    Ultimates 2 #13

    by Zardoz

    Was everything supposed to wrap up in #12? 'cause even according to Marvel's web-site, issue #13 is listed as "part 7 of 6"? Just curious. And IndustryKiller, as my previous posts confirm, not EVERYONE hates CW, and I'm not the only one...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:43 p.m. CST

    Ribbons, never had "end of relationship sex" before?

    by Zardoz

    Y'know, the last sex you have with a partner, even though one, or maybe both of you know that you've reached the end of the relationship? The bittersweet finale of a doomed love affair? Happens all the time in the adult world, even without a letter directly identifying it as such...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:44 p.m. CST

    You know...

    by nofate

    my original comment, like always, was one of my trademarked first thing that comes to mind, non thought out statements so apologies to the red staters out there that might've been offended but I agree with Zardoz, wait until the damn thing is finished before passing judgement. And if the whole thing turns out to be that IM and Reed were being mind controlled, as much as I hate to admit it, it would just be another Marvel copt out. Onslaught? that was a story that had potential, Xavier going shit crazy, but nooo Magneto's evil hitched a ride when he got his tape erased. Clone Saga? it would have taken some balls to declare that all these years Spidey was a fake, so what happens? The whole thing gets blamed on the Green Goblin. Huh? I'm a Marvel Zombie and I've been burned over the years on some projects but believe me I'll take 'em over DC's crapfest any day.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:55 p.m. CST


    by Tito Trinidad

    How is the "Marvel Zombie" crap any different than DC crap in your mind? And second, isn't CW at issue 4 of a 7 issue series? Is it going to get better than this? The only possible way you can get out of this mess IS a copout.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 5:56 p.m. CST


    by Mister Mediocre

    Nice job, @$$holes! It's columns like this that make AICN the best place on the net for all things comics. Harry should give a lock of his red hair to each of you. There are a lot of gems in this column. One comment that really struck me was by Buzz Maverick, “I think the shared universe faded a little when it became clear that current Marvel editors and writers don't read Marvel comics that they weren't personally involved in making.” I couldn’t agree more, Buzz. It seems obvious to me that editors should be required to read the entire Marvel line. That should be the third bullet point in their job description. And that goes for writers as well. None of these characters exist in a vacuum. Don’t these people get comp copies? Quesada should stop banning smoking and start making his people read ALL the Marvel books.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 6:02 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    I'd be more receptive to your theories as to how the nuances of the story are supposed to work if: 1) this "end of the relationship sex" weren't the result of Reed Richards indirectly KILLING SOMEONE. It's not like they're "just two different people," for Pete's sake. Oh, and 2) if you hadn't been spouting on about how much you like Civil War already. And as much as you, Millar and Quesada try and convince us otherwise, this is not "the adult world."

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 6:03 p.m. CST


    by Tito Trinidad

    The only nod to the heroic nature of the characters is to ban smoking? But backstabbing, illegal cloning and murdering other heroes is just fine. That...that doesn't make much sense.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 6:49 p.m. CST

    Planet Hulk

    by DuncanDisorderly

    The current Hulk storyline, " Planet Hulk ", is by far the best comid that Marvel is turning out each month right now. I can't wait until Hulk catches up with Nick Fury, S.H.I.E.L.D., and Reed Richards...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 6:50 p.m. CST

    Joe Quesedilla isn't even that good of an artist

    by DOGSOUP

    Why did he get the top job again?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 7:30 p.m. CST

    because I like something, it invalidates my opinion?

    by Zardoz

    Yeah, that make sense. So ergo, because you dis-like CW, your opinon means zilch, Ribbons? Works for me, I guess...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 7:34 p.m. CST

    Civil War has me buying comics again...

    by modlight

    'nuff said.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 8:02 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    No, it doesn't completely invalidate your opinion, but it means that I'm less likely to consider your opinion objective. If I saw you critcize the series in some way instead of just dismissing every problem everybody has with it as "not giving it a chance," etc., then I'd also be more likely to think your opinion was objective because, frankly, half the shit that the @$$holes had problems with have nothing to do with how the series will end.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 8:30 p.m. CST

    Comic Book Taste

    by Hellpop

    I'd be extremely interested to see what some people here collect, or at laest have collected. . . are there any websites that you can catalog your books? or show your top 25 like does for movies?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 8:32 p.m. CST


    by seemorecarpenter

    You know, I never really read the "A$$hole" reviews on this site because usually they are obnoxious, mean, faux-nerd/hipster b.s. And, the Civil War criticism in this piece of crap "roundtable" just proves it. I must admit I am not overwhelmed by Civil War. It has had some good moments but something feels lackluster about the whole thing. I am waiting. I wonder if it is often the difference with reading it as a whole arc, in a graphic novel format versus reading it issue by issue. However, I think that Millar can deliver on an issue by issue basis if you look at some of his Marvel work. Ultimates is a great example. I thought the return of Thor was done very well. It came out of nowhere, surpised you, gave you a great cliffhanger ending. It was fun and daring. The follow up issue wasn’t as strong in my mind. I know that there are many reasons why a main character cannot die, for example we all know if Captain America died, he would be brought back again eventually. The advantage of killing a semi-minor character is that people won’t demand his return. However, it just doesn’t have as startling an impact. Maybe also it was the way the character was written. He was just a series of bad line and punches. Not more then that. I think if he’d had a little more, some conflict, his death would have been a bit more interesting. If I had written that issue I would have killed the fake Daredevil. Iron Fist is a great character, but does he really merit his own series? Additionally, it would give a solid out in the daredevil line, to free matt Murdock and it would have the poignancy to explain why Spider-Man would leave Tony’s side, Sue would betray her husband, etc. etc. But that’s a side point. Mainly I think there are two matters (I wouldn’t say problems, because it’s more than a singular thing really) that I don’t like about Civil War. The first has often been addressed in what I have read about Civil war: they don’t give the pro-reg side enough weight. Right now, if you are a fan, it is hard to see why to root for this side. Cloning, horrible prisons, arrogance, etc. See if Tony Stark is supposed to be “Bush” or to represent that side, you need an opposite force to really merit it. The school being blown up wasn’t enough. And it’s not because blowing up a school isn’t tragic enough, but that it wasn’t really ingrained into the psyche of the comics. The blood should have been pouring. Fear should have been shown. And what would have been more interesting, would have been to have characters we all assumed would be on the side of the angels, joining the devils – like Wolverine for example. In fact, I think I would buy that wolverine would side with Iron Man, because there are some lines that have to be in place, have to be respected. So, I think that it would play out better in the series over all, if a better weight was given to the pro-reg side. My second matter is the pace of the comic. I think if Samford had played out a little slower. IF the comic didn’t feel like fight scene after fight scene. Then we would really, truly buy into the issue. It would feel more real. We would buy the pro-reg side more, we would care more, and that would make us enjoy the conflict more. I think part of the reason that this has happened is because of the way Marvel mistakenly marketed the event. The truth is that we are getting a lot of the insight, in the side issues. It's not that Millar is doing a bad job, it’s that everyone has to have a piece and they can’t suddenly stop AMS, or FF, or the new avengers. But since Marvel kept stating that you didn’t need to read everything, then some of us didn’t and we missed out. And the main series just isn’t meaty enough without the side issues. But, I would like to in the end applaud Marvel and really bring up the main reason I am writing this post. I like that Marvel tried something different. I love a lot of the issues we are reading. I think the issues in the new avengers for example have been fantastic. I like the covers, the look, the drama of the whole event. I like that it is trying to be smart, and political, and take a stand. I even like frontline and it’s overly smarty pants parallel stories between real world political events and the comic world. We live ina world where most people don’t have any sort of contact with 9/11, the War in Iraq, and the aftermath of those events. People don’t like talking about it or thinking about it. But, a few places have the balls to address it. A great example is BSG, a science fiction show that really gets at the heart of terrorism, war, democracy. I could wax on about it. But the amazing thing to me isn’t that BSG doesn’t have a wider audience -- that is not the fault of the genre, but it’s placement on the science fiction network. If one of the main networks had the balls to buy it and put it on, and air it from the first episode (even HBO, the highly overrated network) then it would reach a wider audience -- star trek had great numbers in its day and look at LOST. No, the amazing think to me was the reaction of some fans of the old show. The attacks on Starbuck being a woman, etc. etc. And that reminds me of the little roundtable of “a$$” whatever talkers. I usually don’t read this comic because I feel you have an anti-Marvel bias. And you guys just choose not to like certain things or people because I think a lot of other people like them. You are a lot like faux-hipster/nerds. Maybe unveiling Spider Man’s identity wasn’t the best, but it was interesting. And it is compelling and it allows for so many ways for the character to change. And he should change. He is not a teenager, and if you really want to read that, then get it in a collected format and masterbate all over the old issues. I hope that some of the other “talkbackers” agree with me and call you guys out. A lot of us have complaints about Civil war, but a lot of us find stuff to talk about, it makes us think, its different then anything I’ve really seen in comics. And I too read watchmen and dkr and sin city and sandman and on and on and on. But all I got from your discussion was a festival of back slapping, attempts at being funny or clever and little discussion. Oh and lots and lots of whining. And finally, I want to defend Mr. Bendis. I met him. He’s a great guy who supports fans of comic books. He buys his comics at a store here in Portland. He is willing to meet, to talk to you to sign your comics. And he writes a lot of good issues. A lot of interesting ones that are different, and romantic in a literary sense. So maybe some of his stories are a little slow, but a lot of them are great. I was watching Charlie Rose last night and Anne Quinlen was on. And she made this comment about the democrats, how they treat their young. They eat them up and spit them out. There is a reason why that party doesn’t have many great leaders anymore. She pointed out how differently the Republicans would have treated Senator Bill Bradley in 2000 when he ran for president. And she’s right. The Republicans will look at the good features of their candidate, they don’t always dwell on the negative. Well I think comic fans are a lot like the democrats. We don’t focus on what’s great or fun or interesting. We just whine and moan and slap each other on the back because one day when we were twelve and we had no friends, a comic gave us comfort. Well, I’m 27, I am married and a professional and comics still give me comfort and I don’t think it is something bad. I don’t think they are bad. and I wish you guys would give some of the people some credit and be a little more civil to them. And really … you aren’t that funny.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 8:35 p.m. CST

    How can my opinion be anything but objective?

    by Zardoz

    After all, I'm not associated with Mark Millar or Marvel comics, so my opinion is hardly subjective: I don't have any personal interest vested in the outcome of, or opinion about the series. And I haven't been saying that CW is the greatest comic ever, but it IS trying to say SOMETHING. (whether it's about comic book heroes in general or parallels to the real post 9/11 world) That's what I really like about the series, so far. (and the art and the action has me hooked) Who are we to say how certain people will react to a highly traumatic event, whether it's 9/11 or Stamford? What Millar is saying, I believe, is that these events have polarized and changed everyone in the MU, for better and worse. (duh) I mean, who would've thought the U.S. would be so stupid to invade Iraq post 9/11, and yet we did it anyway, despite there being no evidence of a connection to Al Qaeda or WMD's. And since the most powerful heroes are on the side of the government in CW, I would point out that, as in the real world, "might does not make right". And again, the problems everyone has with the series so far might very well be addressed and resolved by the end of it, certainly not while it's ongoing and incomplete. When it's done, then tell me how awful it was, NOT before... (and anyway, my highest praise was for Ultimates 2, not CW)

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 8:39 p.m. CST

    Suggestion to PoPoZao

    by Prof Challenger

    Why don't you stop reading reviews and stick your head back up your ass where it belongs? That way the "pomposity" of people sharing opinions won't piss you off so much and distract you from your daily intestinal evacuation.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 8:46 p.m. CST

    johncage and "high concept"

    by Prof Challenger

    Actually, my point was (and maybe not expressed clearly) was that it may be "high concept" in theory but rather than appealing to the wide-ranging general public, I think that Marvel low-balled the public. Sort of like if George Lucas had taken STAR WARS and geared it to only to love-starved sci-fi geeks who live in their parents' basement. That's not what he did. He took his movie idea and constructed it in such a way as to appeal to the widest audience possible with lots of explosions and excitement and 2-dimensional characters. But none of the characters were one-note and we didn't get Han and Luke trying to strangle each other all of the sudden in the third movie. If CIVIL WAR is "high-concept" then it's the lowest level high-concept going right now.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 8:48 p.m. CST

    Civil War blows.

    by MattCG

    Any way you slice it. Commenting on the art, just illustrates how fucked the story is. Fuck this series and may Millar die in a fiery car crash with any of his brood who may be tempted to take up his mantle and fuck with the only thing in my life I currently enjoy.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:06 p.m. CST

    re: civility

    by The Heathen

    Doesn't your last sentence negate your entire essay of a post about civility?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:09 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    Well, you have a point there, and the series still has a few more issues left to elaborate on that. But, like I said, not all of the problems (i.e. the "pieces moving on a chessboard" thing) can be retroactively fixed.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:14 p.m. CST

    That's not very professorly of you...

    by PoPoZao

    But thanks for the thin-skinned response. Face facts, you were mighty condescending to CW fans. You know it, your fellow reviewers know it, and the CW fans on talkback know it. It seems the only thing you profess is being an old fart and apparently your wife's bitch.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:15 p.m. CST

    Where'd Heath & Kal Go?

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    I swear, they're the only ones that read my posts. Maybe I'm too polite...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:16 p.m. CST

    to Heathen

    by seemorecarpenter

    probably. I am just curious what other people thought about the rest of it. but thank you for reading it

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:17 p.m. CST

    Oh, Wait

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    There he is. And who is the toothless Marvel artist?

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:20 p.m. CST

    Yeah, but the thing is...

    by Ribbons

    ...people critique films, music, plays, books, etc. They even get paid to do it? Why should it be any different with comic books? You're right; a lot of young children have special relationships with comic books. And in some ways I think that's why the adult versions of those people expect them to be "critic-proof." The reason that it may seem like there are more by-volume negative reviews of comics than there are of anything else is because independent comics aren't proliferated in the same way that smaller movies or music acts are.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:21 p.m. CST

    I'm Ron Burgundy?

    by Ribbons

    Sorry for the weird grammar in that last post.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:44 p.m. CST


    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    That last post made me laugh. That is all.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:52 p.m. CST

    hey willy were here

    by Darth Kal-El

    we were just having a LOST talk with vale over in the Cog Mansion. and hey its great to see all these new names in the comic talkback. i gues it takes a roundtable of a controversial series and boom everyone comes out of the woodwork

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 9:59 p.m. CST

    Lost on LOST

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    You know, I missed the first season on that, thus never tried it out. It seems like something I'd be into, though. I always feel left out when around my fellow nerds.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:06 p.m. CST

    Man, no way am i reading this entire talkback

    by El Vale

    I will say this: I couldn't give a bigger shit. <br> <br> I couldn't give a bigger shit about Civil War, about the characters, about heroism, about Superheroes. I'd be totally ok with it if they just went away. It's been too much for too damn long. <br> <br> Sadly, that's not gonna happen. In the meantime let's celebrate all the good comics that are coming out each and every week. <br> <br> Know what comic i thought was really good? The new Doctor Strange mini by Vaughan. I enjoyed every minute of it, altho'it made me wonder: Is Doc Strange gay? Cause that'd be cool.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:11 p.m. CST

    Strange Sexuality

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    That's a good question. Although in the past he had a thing going on with Clea, Garth Ennis wrote him as somewhat "femme" in the Thor:Vikins miniseries. Hey, I'm open-minded. If he's gay, I say let that rainbow colored Cloak of Cookie Monster fly!

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:11 p.m. CST

    Strange Sexuality

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    That's a good question. Although in the past he had a thing going on with Clea, Garth Ennis wrote him as somewhat "femme" in the Thor:Vikings miniseries. Hey, I'm open-minded. If he's gay, I say let that rainbow colored Cloak of Cookie Monster fly!

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:12 p.m. CST

    Ignore The 1st Post

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    The correct spelling for "Vikings" lies in the second. What the hell a "Vikin" is I'll never know...

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:33 p.m. CST

    It is kinda...Strange

    by El Vale

    I mean this comic i was talking about, The Oath #1, it's all about Strange having a male/asian assistant called Wong and them trying to save eachothers' lives no matter what. All the while i was thinking "man, this is fairly homoerotic", but also thinking "you know, if these guys are in love i'm totally cool with that" <br> <br> Plus look at the way Strange dresses.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:32 p.m. CST

    civil war, and craziness afoot @ marvel...

    by Bootskin

    You know, I definately can see why long-time fans would be upset with the current characterization of Stark, Richards and Cap. Esp after issue #4, but if you watch the other characters around them, they seem to be more in tune with what you folks are saying. For example, Sue leaving (and yes, "one last time" does exist, and I've had it 3 times....yes, I'm a talkbacker, and have had sex...) and Nighthawk's repsonse to Cap being an absolute prick. There are great moments of little characterizations such as these that are peppered through-out the book. And please, Black Goliath was a CRAPPY CHARACTER. I am all for more (and better) characters of African heritage, but "Black Goliath"? Not even 2nd stringer status here. He's only been in the story for us to witness a senseless death. Hell, they should've just killed off Hercules, it would've had a bigger impact, and made Thoor's appearance even more intimidating without him around to even the odds. I think that the only seriously bad thing about Black Goliath's death is that it only culls the already small numbers of minority charcters in the MU. Now, Reed, should've been mortified at his error, and Stark DID seem to be remorseful but wanted to "stay the course" of his current stance. I seriously think(hope) that these personality quirks are side-effects of either Hate-monger's influence, or something as simple as Skrull activity (further evidence of an Aniihlation cross-over). I think that this series could end up "rebooting" some things in the MU, re: a Infinite Crisis style redux. My only real reason for this train of thought is that pre-view of Mighty Avengers in wizard last month. But Hey, what do I know? I must be a noob or a Moron according to some of you. Because I don't hate this series at all. I like the production values, I like the fact that there are characters in the story 2nd gussing their original stances on the issues, and I like the dialogue. I hate the characterizations you all have pointed out, and I hope it will be addressed in the conclusion/climax of the series. I hope that something great comes of the story-line, and I hope the Ultimates universe stays where the fuck it is. I'm no noob, I'm 32 and have been reading comics since I was 3. I'm not a moron, (I think...) as I do hold degrees (of course so do some very famous morons, so I'm not sure that actually confirms anything.) I like the potential of this story, and hope it does well. I can see where some of you get your strong opinions and reservations from, but I will trust in the staff on hand for now. Besides, comics are gettign pretty expensive these days, and if this DOES turn out to be sucky, I can always show Marvel with my lack of $$ in their direction. Have fun.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:36 p.m. CST

    El Vale

    by Ribbons

    I think what you mean to say is "I couldn't give a smaller shit," but maybe I shouldn't be a semant/pedant/whatever here, since I mostly agree with you.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:40 p.m. CST

    The Greatest Cross-Over Event Of All Time...

    by Baytor

    Millenium... the Bizarro Version

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:44 p.m. CST

    Can't Wait For Cybil War

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    I'm with Bruce Willis!

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 10:52 p.m. CST

    The Hype

    by Homer Sexual

    Oh, we believe it. Comics=movies and even the indie consumers get sucked in. Just like big budget movies. And sometimes they're good and sometimes they're not. Most of don't always fall for it, but I think pretty much all of us do, sometimes. I am not reading CW because I didn't like the first issue, but I want to buy it. Even though I know I won't like it, I want to buy. I want to buy it real bad.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:25 p.m. CST

    Actually Ribbons

    by El Vale

    I meant "I couldn't give a bigger shirt". I mean that's as far as i go in terms of big shirts.

  • Oct. 12, 2006, 11:44 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    ...NOW I see where you were coming from. Yeah, those shirts can be pretty easy to give away on boring crossover events like these, especially the big ones.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, midnight CST

    real people like it

    by Braner

    Wow, that throwaway line caught a lot of action and now I'm supposed to blow somebody at some point. I hate how these things end up with me blowing people. Anyway, what I meant by "real people like it" is that people I talk to at my shop think its an entertaining story. People who are not weirdo ubergeek internet comics pundits. Superhero comics are just goofy fluff at heart anyway, even the really good stuff like James Robinson's Starman, come on guys. And i still think people who have problems with the end of "Wanted" are WAY too damn sensitive, and usually big dork asses.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 12:17 a.m. CST

    The Best Thing Here Is The Return Of Sideshow Bob...

    by Buzz Maverik

    I haven't been around much myself, so if you've been around and I haven't noticed, sorry. But it's good to read your insights, etc.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 1:23 a.m. CST


    by El Vale

    You and i are on the same page. I mean what the fuck are you gonna do with a big shirt? Grow into it? And give up my insane sex appeal? I don't think so.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 1:26 a.m. CST

    Wait a minute!

    by El Vale

    I thought the best thing here was the return of me, so i don't get where Buzz is coming from mom just may have some things to say about this whole stinking deal.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:20 a.m. CST

    It's a cookbook! A cookbook!

    by WaffleZombie

    Come on, we all know what it is. Skrulls lots and lots of skrulls. I find it easier to believe that a group of skrulls would act out of character by impersonating Tony and Strecth then the actual two of them going crazy so Millar can write about how much he hates Bush again. Then again it could be the Dopplegangers. haven't heard from them in over a decade, now have we?

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:49 a.m. CST

    @$$ holes on the money

    by notmike721

    But not on everything. This is my first talk back ive ever written but ive been a long time reader of this site and this column in particular. The weekly comics reviews have helped me get back in to comics and also avoid the shit. I can't tell you how many good books (y the last man, fables, We3, etc) and good writers like grant morrison, ive discovered or rediscovered all because of this column. I wanted to write because the topic of why people get into comics came up. As someone getting back into comics ive seen the downsides to what marvel has been doing in these past years that CW represents. Ive been a x-books fan for years. They are what got me into comics in the first place way back when i was a kid in the early nineties when they still had comic shops and all the kids my age read comic books. But even then marvel pulled its shady bs. Remember fatal attractions? One of my top three favorite x-men, colossus, becomes a bad guy. What the f? Oh multiple man, another favorite, lets kill him and keep him dead for like a million years. Moves like these, along with immense labrynthine plots made a young kid give up reading comics. And it wasn't just x-men, comics like spiderman, even then, went to bizarre places kids couldn't relate to. And after the early nineties, comics went into the tanks, when readers like me left. These comic altering chnages do have deep effects on new readers coming back to the books. What happened to the x-men while i was gone? Thank god i have wikipedia to keep up with all the changes. Now i know that cyclops died, then came back and then divorced jean grey and ended up with emma frost. Good they fucked up my favorite character so bad i dont even want to read him, cause i remember how happy i was when he got married to jean. I have the comic still. Spiderman is unmasked? well that fundamentally alters the very dna of his character, that makes his book something to ignore. which brings me back to the point of why i wrote this, what you sparked me to write to you guys. Characters and plot are fundamentally what matters and where cw ultimately fails. Older more mature readers see this as a gimmick, and they see how it fails at being good art. Now that graphic novels matter as literature, crossovers like civil war will matter even less to mature readers when so much good thought provoking stuff is out there. Civil war fails on the most basic level. Symoblically, captain America represents government and always has, since he first worked for the army. And iron man represents business, and always has, which in todays world opposes the government and opposes regulation. When I first heard about this crossover on tv I couldn’t believe the writer made a mistake as basic as that. Why not write something intellectually thought provoking, by having the government attack heroes and make the reader, especially young readers look at the the role government plays in all our lives? In fact, why not not write CW since watchmen covered this territory already? The basic upshot is this, kids coming in from learning about reed Richards from the movie, or x-men from the video games are going to either be confused or pissed about what the read and how far it deviates from the characters they know. Readers who try and come back to comics will find their favorite characters assainating other characters. And finally readers looking for something more mature will turn to something more mature. Afterall, superhero comics are supposed to tell a simple story, excitng, sometimes funny, sometime poignant, that is consistent. I open up an issue of spiderman, or see one of the movies, expecting to read about peter parker in love with mary jane, stressed by life and fighting a super villain and I can escape from life for a while. I open up watchmen to read literature which after reading cw is just what im going to do.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 5:27 a.m. CST

    I'm thinking that semi-regular TBers should post ...

    by Negative Man of comics every week. Pretty sure we can do it better than these hand picked snarl-fest, wannabe industry types. Seriously. The A-holes are JUST figuring that CIVIL WAR and ANNIHILATION are connecting to each other? What was the hint? The fact that since the big A-bug is invading the main M-verse because Reed cut himself out a chunk of the N-Zone as mentioned well before the first issue of the core Annihilation title came out? Wasn't like the prison just popped up. And Iron Man out of character? How many stories out there had future Stark's transforming into diabolical villains? Like 50 or so? The most recent was the Earth 2-ish storyline from Kirkman's underrated MARVEL TEAM UP. Anywho... Me thinks the reg TBers should over take this forum and just post reviews without the cocky-cock-cockiness and insults to anyone whom might enjoy a title. Call me crazy. Post the title of the book and review. At least the reviews won't be a week late... Give your thoughts, condemnations or condiments if ya think this is a good idea. Most of us just react; I think it's time we post proper. Or is that propa? Damn hip-speak...

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 8:04 a.m. CST

    Marvel doesn't have a clue...

    by mrfan

    about comics anymore. Enough said.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 9:11 a.m. CST

    Spider-Man represents Spider-Man

    by Thalya

    And if he isn't then the writer ain't doin' his bleepin' job.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 9:15 a.m. CST

    Negative Man..

    by Thalya

    Actually, something's already in the works, just not as streamlined as the excellent set-up the @$$holes have here. <BR><BR>Deets here:

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 9:19 a.m. CST


    by Thalya

    without that space, of course

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 9:23 a.m. CST

    Hey Buzz!

    by sideshowbob

    I've been reading the column almost every week but I haven't been buying a many books so I've mostly stayed out of the talkbacks. I've got a stack of graphic novels about 3 feet tall that I'm trying to get around to as well so I'm way behind and short on opinions these days. Once I make a dent in that, I've got to check out that zombie book you keep pimping. That sounds awesome on about 8 different levels.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 9:30 a.m. CST

    A gay Dr. Strange?

    by sideshowbob

    I don't know. Marvel's policy and history with gays is a bit strange in and of itself:

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 10:18 a.m. CST


    by Reelheed

    I want these titles to come together. It could be great. Hulk returns on warbound. Tony has to beg for help. Everyone teams up. The wave turns up. Using tonys profiles it kicks earth ass. Hulk saves the day. Tony "I'm dying. Argh. Koff. soz for being an twat." The entire universe is reshuffled a la house of M. Tony lives. Group hug. THE END. How great is that? I dont know about you but I'm saving up my cash already! HOUSE O'HULK: WAR WAVE here we come!

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 10:31 a.m. CST


    by Homer Sexual

    I do quite enjoy Annihilation, it is similar to Beyond, I guess, but more "serious," especially for Gifeen, and very much in the Starlin vein. Although I can only take the Annihilus character so seriously,he is hilarious looking. I don't normally go for space stories, and the only character I am fond of is Moondragon, who has hardly even been in the book. But it is a well-told story, lots of characters, fresh takes on old "second stringers," rather than having the same-old star characters behaving bizarrely, and Annihilation is very comprehensible although I have not read any of the interconnected books except Silver Surfer. On another topic, when Thing was being published I said it was too corny, but everyone seemed to be sucking its rocky orange d---, yet here are various talkbackers saying it was disappointing and that even Slott has said the same. 20/20 hindsight?

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 10:37 a.m. CST


    by Tito Trinidad

    So the comic book shop I go to where the majority of custormers think it's bullshit are just a figment of your imagination? Got it. Sorry explanation for a stupid comment, but hey water under the bridge. I was done thinking about your comment about 23 1/4 hours ago, Mr Sensitive. Don't go sucking your own dick too much.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 11 a.m. CST

    Good link, Sideshow

    by Homer Sexual

    As a gay reader who read comics long before having any idea I was gay, I have to say that interview is typical comics-industry babble. I remember when (in the 80s) Northstar was clearly gay, but not explicitly stated, and ultimately, he wasn't gay....he was an elf! WTF? I loved that Rawhide Kid mini (it was probably a MAX, yes)and that Handbook entry is probably the most offensive part of the story. He was pretending? That's worse than forgetting it ever happened. While it is very lame and pathetic, I can see how they want to have their cake and eat it too. Or better said, they want to keep all the gay readers (and I really believe there's a high percent of gay comic fans)but not offend anyone. Controversial, yet safe. Whatever. It's lame but I can understand. Before clicking the tinyurl, I was going to post "can we not bring up ambiguous Dr. Strange, because some people are going to get all pissy about debasing an established character and making him gay instead of inventing new gay heroes like Flaming Man or the Lipstick Lesbian." I think I had negative interaction with other posters on this topic during the last couple of weeks due to attention on Winick.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 11:06 a.m. CST


    by The Heathen

    "Characters and plot are fundamentally what matters and where CW ultimately fails. Older more mature readers see this as a gimmick, and they see how it fails at being good art." Well said notmike. <br> <br> Negative Man, the best thing you can do is actually write a review and post it here. Once you do that, you prove that your not just bullshitting like that one guy was who said writing reviews was cake, but he never did it. I happen to diagree, because I know that must have been an enormous task to edit and group together. Ahh, the code!!! This Roundtable was honest. Dan was the only one that really favors 'kinda' CW, or he really doesn't give a shit. Would you or anyone who likes CW have the @$$es lie? This isn't IGN or News@rama is it? Hell no. CW war is bad, so it get's a negative review. Anyone who looks can see that there are other books involved in CW that the @$$es like. In case you missed it, it's at the end.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 11:07 a.m. CST

    2 BIG questions.

    by Zebtron A. Rama

    1.Will the Annihilation Wave reach Earth in 3 months? (see Annihilation issue 3) 2.Who the heck is the "betrayer" using the GreenGoblin as their pawn in the latest issue of Civil War Frontline?

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 11:22 a.m. CST

    Give It A Shot, Negative Man.

    by Buzz Maverik

    Anybody can do this. I've always viewed this as punk rock. You just do it. Writing a review is easy. What's not so easy is getting it on the site, especially not a week late. It's not the same as posting in the talkbacks. I don't personally understand how it works and I don't want to, but I believe Bug, Sleaze, Dave, Greg, Moriarity, Harry and whomever our current contact is here. Also, while some of us (including myself especially) will cheer you, encourage you, read your work, respectfully visit your talkbacks, at the same time, we're not going to help you. You may not need our help. Others are doing it, and I'm looking forward to it. Also, once it's up there...unless you state exactly what every reader feels about a particular book or creative team, you're gonna get some shit from those readers. Most of the time, @$$holes encourage the shit. We're into shit. But if you're honest, and you don't just like everything (in other words if you're not really critquing) they aren't gonna love you.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 11:26 a.m. CST

    Homer Sexual - Giffen

    by Squashua

    "but more 'serious,' especially for Gifeen," - (1) Giffen. (2) The above statement makes it obvious you haven't been properly exposed to the man's work. Keith Giffen might write "silly" at times, but if you read into it, there is some very heavy stuff in both his Legion of Super-Heroes run and (truthfully) the JLI books. It wasn't always Bwah-ha-ha. He's written some truly evil shit.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 11:45 a.m. CST

    Remember, @$$holes Formed As A Reaction To "Pros"...

    by Buzz Maverik

    No, not hookers. The Professional Comic Book reviewers here. How can you be a professional comic book reviewer? That's even dumber than being a regular comic book reviewer. It's a comic book. I think I will look at it and review it. Yeah, I'm 11 years old and I see AMAZING SPIDER-MAN where Doc Ock is holding Aunt May hostage and throwing Spidey's ass out of a helicopter and I say, "I wonder what the critics think." And bay-bee, it's still what the 11 year old thinks that counts, even if that 11 year old is now in his 20s, 30s, or 40s. "He's a human rocket and he seems like a stoner but we never see him getting stoned and he gets his ass kicked every sigle time he faces a supervillain, I'm gonna buy that!" "Wait, Buzz, it got a bad review." "He's fighting a guy called the Spinyx!" "Fuck the review! But steal it so we have enough left for a slurpee and a pack of Camels." So, anyway, there's these professional comic book reviewers here on the site, and we actually like 'em, a few of our friends even right for 'em, but it turns out they have to write only positive reviews. They aren't really reviews. They are recommendations. I call 'em advertising, which pisses 'em off, I don't know why. Then, Vroom Socko says they say he can't swear in his reviews. I said, "Of course you can swear, Vroom, you're very foul mouthed. Last time I had dinner at yer house, you said, hey pass the fuckin' potatos! Oh, sorry as shit about that, Ma!" So the Comedian wrote a review of the X-STATIX and it got posted. Pretty soon, the whole gang is doing it. The Professional Guys tell us we can't call ourselves @$$holes, a name we all claim to have invented but was actually invented by me when Harry had a story about a theme in JAY & SILENT BOB being about "talkback @$$holes" and I posted, "Hey, Kev, Talkback @$$hole # 3 here..." We got to be honest and have fun. If we liked something, we said it. If we didn't, we didn't. To this day, none of us are industry wannabees. Which isn't to say that if they called me up and offered me Quesada's job I'd turn it down...I'd see what it paid and make my decision. Then, the head Pro Comic Reviewer called us yeast infections to the industry. I'd been toying with eliminating any of my real personality and making "Buzz" strictly a fictional character so that's when I let him loose (the only time I let him loose in real life was when these two guys approached me and Mrs. Buzz and sort of hinted that they were going to mug us and in about 7 seconds "Buzz" had scared the living shit out of them and they were "just kidding, man, don't get all mad and all" Also, people sometimes buy Buzz drinks). So we all let out the @$$hole persona and in about 7 seconds the Professional Comic Book Reviewers disappeared. We were kind of flattered about the yeast infection comment because we like anything to do with the vagina. But that's the @$$hole story. It's not easy to become an @$$hole now. The hazing is indecribable, although I did much worse to myself: I made a comprehensive list of every early Image character with the words "Hawk" "Blud" or "Wulf" in their name. 11,317 of them sunsabitches.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 11:46 a.m. CST


    by Shigeru

    Joe Q and Millar have gone on record saying that there will NOT be a twist at the end. There is NO PUPPERMASTER controlling things behind the scenes. Which means this series will surely end in a gigantic wet frapping fart.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 12:01 p.m. CST

    Buzz Maverick

    by Shigeru

    I once sat on the same toilet seat as Buzz Maverick... it cured my inoperable brain cancer.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 12:06 p.m. CST

    Warren Ellis Had A Comment

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    When Planetary crossed over with Batman, he said that the idea of using different versions of the Dark Knight came when he realized that all he is is a name and a chest symbol. Seriously. How does the grim, murderous 1940s version compare to the campy 1950s-60s version to the psycho 1980s-90s version to the new one? And how do they comnpare to the Dark Knight Returns one? Sometimes, that's how you gotta look at these characters...

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 12:36 p.m. CST

    Dude, Buzz

    by rev_skarekroe

    Were you channeling Harry Knowles there or what?

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 12:42 p.m. CST

    Tito my man

    by Braner

    Now I'm sucking my own dick? Is this before or after I have to blow Heathen? It would appear this site is no fun at all if you don't like performing fellatio. My mind is open and all but there's got to be a better way to convince me I shouldn't like a comic book series.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 12:54 p.m. CST


    by The Heathen

    definitely after. Your right, how could sucking me off convince you not to read a comic? You'd be hooked for life. Then again, you are one of those 'real life people' right?

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 1:20 p.m. CST

    good post on the @$$hole origins buzz

    by Darth Kal-El

    i didnt actually know u guys came from the tbs. i remember hearing something about another review crew called grey something but shit, its been @$$holes for quite a long time now. and now of course theres Cogs...

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 1:19 p.m. CST


    by Braner

    Actually I think you get a pass from all the mouth rape and autofellatio since you agree with the opinions of the @$$holes. Get out while you still can man!

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 1:53 p.m. CST

    Hey Psynapse....

    by Bootskin

    RE:Just what the hell is 'heroic' about turning completely on people who have saved your life (and countless others) innumerable times in favor of a reactionary government sanctioned progrom? Y'know, a lot of people could be asked this question. Such as the crew behind Days of future past...or say...Kingdom Come? Or Squadron Supreme? Millenium? Don't get me wrong, there are multitudes of differences in each of these storylines, but they all have a very similar underlying theme. all good stories (...well Millenium not so much maybe..), but all dealt with the question of to much power in the hands of those who are fighting the good fight. And in the case of Squadron Supreme, of couse there are no "out of character moments because the characters were created for just such a story. BUT, we do see contradiction in the others: Superman just up and leaving everybody? because he didnt get his way in Kingdom Come? Sorry, a bit of a stretch. I think he would've stayed active, even if form the shadows. That's the only one I can think of now off the top of my head. That's either because these storylines were all minor culprits in comparison, or because I haven't read the damn things in years...

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:08 p.m. CST

    Kingdom Come comparisons, etc.

    by The Heathen

    Kingdom Come was Elseworlds first off, even though many creators and fans have thought of it as not. The difference between Kingdom Come and Civil War (thus far) besides the Elseworlds thing is that KC managed to have the characters do things in a more natural way. It's years in the future and Superman left because a bunch of other younger powered capes were running the show and he left them be. Lois was killed and he didn't want to take part of it anymore. I recently read it and can see how that reasonable characterization makes sense. Say the stuff that has happened in CW was ten or twenty years in the future, I can say to myself, "You know, these characters have gone through a bunch of shit in these couple of decades and I can understand that Reed is a mad scientist now or that Peter Parker has had it or Tony is only in it for himself, but not the way it happened. I just can't make the connection. I had a lengthy post about the stuff that's happened and the time it happened in. Doesn't make sense to me. And I care too i sthe thing. I DO give a shit about these characters, so it affects me and the foundation that's been laid out for them. In Kingdom Come the older heroes recognized there error and made the changes that needed to be made. It seemed to have a better, more natural pace. I read it all at once, but guess what? I've done the same with Civil War and it just doesn't jive. And as far as as Al Quesada (oh Vale) and Millar are concerned with there not being a twist? Just like Speedball would die or this person would stay dead or Daredevil Father would be out when or blah, blah, blah. I'll believe it when I see it. I trust them as far as I can throw them and Da Q is a big dude, cumbersome even. I hope Millar stays away from Astonishing X-Men. I hope that title dies with Whedon and Casaday leaving. Random I know, but I just want to keep my Marvel books I love safe.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:15 p.m. CST

    Just to clarify

    by El Vale

    I'm not saying Vaughan's Doc Strange IS gay, i'm just saying i wish he were, cause that'd be cool.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:23 p.m. CST


    by The Heathen

    I need some tasteless humor in my life. You got anything?

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:22 p.m. CST

    My fellow Cogs

    by El Vale

    Seriously, check out that Doc Strange comic, it's tons of fun.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:24 p.m. CST

    The Heathen, others who dislike CW....

    by Bootskin

    I was just throwing it out there for devil's advocate. I still haven't decided just how i feel about CW but I certainly don't share your unabashed hatred for it. I understand your points, and why you don't like it, and you and the others on here who don't like it certainly have the right NOT to like it. In my post I was simply pointing out that these issues have already been used in other stories. Even though some were "elseworlds" or "what-if?" stories, with the advent of the Ultimate line and Max and the other out of continuity stories out there, who's to say if this DOES end up sucking horribly by the end, it won't be erased/retconed away like all the other shit in the past (Heroes Reborn anyone?) Marvel is fast becoming the new old DC. With all these different worlds/Ultimate Lines et al. we'll probably see their own version of Crisis in a few years (if this isn't it already...) just to clean up all the continuity poo that's been spread around the last few years. And maybe it'll be welcomed by all of us. (but probably not..) Oh, and just to make one thingclear, I DO car ebaout all of these characters dearly and when their basic "foundation" as you put it, gets all screwed up I definately get concerned. But i'm just going to watch and see, and if at the end everyhing ISN'T fixed, THEN I'll get on my soapbox, but not until then.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:26 p.m. CST

    vale i have been wanting to

    by Darth Kal-El

    since i saw it in the previews catalog. im gald to hear its out and its good. and dr. strange is gay as all paris! at least hes always seemed kinda queer to me.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:35 p.m. CST


    by Bootskin

    I understand your points, and agree with them to some extent. I was simply pointing out similar issues as far as basic plot/theme. I understand also that mos tof the stories I put out there were what if/elseworlds, but the similar underlying theme is there. All I was saying, and not arguing with you at all. So, "Puh-leeze" realize this. I'm probably one of the only people on here who disagrees with you and hasn't degraded myself to fellatio comments, or remarks about your mother. Cuz, as far as I'm concerned, you don't deserve it for having an opinion. Anyhoo, I was thinking a bit more about the KC comparison, and thought of somehting. CW reads a LOT like KC, but only if the Superman angle was taken out. IE: Cap as Batman, and Iron Man as Luthor. Thor=Captain Marvel. Kinda weird right? The only problem of course is that this is taking place in ESTABLISHED continuity (for as long as that lasts anyway...), and KC was elseworlds. (See? I get it...) something else to remember too, DC a few years back issued statements that the KC future was going to be the established future for the DCU they were going to be heading for. Cool thing about KC was that it galvanized the DCU, and a LOT of cool things came about because of it. But that's for another talkback. Too bad CW couldn't have the same effect on the Marvel Universe eh?

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:38 p.m. CST

    Re: Psynapse

    by Bootskin

    hmm... I meant one of the only people who hasn't resorted to name calling etc, and disagrees with you. I wan't trying to imply no one else agreed wiht you. GAH, I hope you get my point lol.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:42 p.m. CST


    by Darth Kal-El

    i dont think anyone was saying u cant have an opinion. and i think a lot of the felatio/name calling was all in fun. i post here all the time and its just kinda how we talk. i admire that u stuck around tho even if you did percieve this to be a hostile environment. its not i assure u. were all just having fun talking about the things were passionate about

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:48 p.m. CST


    by The Heathen

    I wasn't fully replying to just you besides the Kingdome Come stuff. I wanted to like Civil War. I never go into anything saying, "I'm gonna hate this shit." Unless it's like a Liefeld and Austen story or something, but anyway, I liked the first issue of Civil War. I didn't love it, but I gave it a chance to mold itself and then issue #2 came out and we allknow about that. "Marvel is fast becoming the new old DC." I really like that quote. It's humorous and true. I'm glad you care about these characters because what's the point if not? At least that's my theory. I don't waste my time reading or watching stuff about Paris Hilton because I don't give a shit. Marvel history though? Yeah, I care. You care. A bunch of people do, much more than Marvel thinks do. And you know what? If this is some sort of reboot then I'll probably have some problems with it, but I really don't think Marvel cares to admit their mistakes like that and therefore I don't think were getting a Marvel Crisis. Say what you will about the big two, but DC has confessed to fucking up a lot of their stuff, especially the last ten years. That's refreshing to me. Wouldn't it be nice to have Joey Q say, "You know what? We screwed up. Let's fix it." And no matter how retarded it would be the fans would support him because he was up front with them. Unfortunately that's not the case and we have Axel Alonso telling Sleazy G. that everything's fine, the war--er, the story couldn't be better recieved. Thanks for the reply Bootskin. Psy, I need that humor.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 2:54 p.m. CST

    What Darth said Bootskin…

    by The Heathen

    and I only told that guy to blow me because he said that anyone who didn't like CW wasn't real. I'm real. I even pinched myself to double check. ; ) <br> <br> You're right about taking Superman out of KC. Wow, never thought of that comparison. Good one.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 3:13 p.m. CST

    For my tastes

    by El Vale

    And if this is in fact what we're talking about, i think DC has been completely hypocritical when admiting their fuck ups. <br> <br> One of the problems i had with IC, aside from everything, was the fact that they didn't have the balls to say "Wait, stop...we fucked up, all this darkness and grim n gritty shit, we fucked up. Sorry. Let's start from scratch" No. They had to go and make it part of the story, the cultural factors that resulted in the industry heading in that direction, that's all meta, and we're integrating it into our worldview so Superman prime or whatever can get mad at it and punch some walls. <br> <br> But fear not, reader, for Geoff Johns and myself, Dan Didio, have made it all better by having our actual fictional Universe apologize for it without even having to apologize for it in the first place. What a load of shit, it's like saying to all those writers and artists who contributed to the grim n gritty business "Hey fucked up, you know that right? But it's ok now because we've made it better by making it seem like you didn't fuck up at all and it was all deliberate so,'s my back so you can pat it. Also, thank me later". Well fuck you, Johns and Didio, if you're going to suck dicks you might as well suck mine instead of your own. <br> <br> Also, Doc Strange is gay.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 3:15 p.m. CST

    Hulk wont come back and Smash things right.

    by DOGSOUP

    Because CW will end before Planet Hulk will. Besides, if Hulk did come back he'd probably think heroes beating and killing other heroes was HI-Larious and just desserts for launching him into space.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 3:16 p.m. CST

    i bought the Strange issue

    by Shigeru

    Him and WONG have a special kinda love connection but Strange tapped Clea and she's a hottie. So um I dunno where that leaves him.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 3:26 p.m. CST

    It IS a special kinda love connection!

    by El Vale

    I'm so glad i'm not making this up. BTW Wong needn't know about Clea.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 3:30 p.m. CST

    But Vale…

    by The Heathen

    You pretty much hate all of DC (besides Bru's Catwoman) and just said that you didn't care about Marvel's characters even though those are the one's you read more of. It seems as though all you care about (in the super heroes verses at least) is saying how shitty they are or 'meh' you can do without. Really? And you honestly never watched Superman when you were younger? You know how I feel about this. HoM was a turd you praised and IC was better (not the end all be all) with primarily production faults. I'd take IC anyday over HoM and HoM anyday over CW and CW over Milligan's or Austen's X-Men runs, but c'mon my Cog. I just don't get your disdain for DC Editorial when Marvel puts the bird finger squarely in front of your face, but sure, DC sucks because the tried to fix their mistakes by including them in a story, how suckish of them.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 3:54 p.m. CST

    He'll love him…

    by The Heathen

    Wong time.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 4:39 p.m. CST

    Thank you, Psy!

    by The Heathen

    Right on cue. ;)

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 5:40 p.m. CST

    No no guys

    by El Vale

    Talking about my disdain for Marvel editorial would be kinda silly because i mean isn't that what EVERYONE's doing in this talkback? If anything, i tried to be original =P There's nothing to be said about Marvel editorial anymore, this whole CW talkback (and round table) is about Marvel editorial and how it sucks. But let's not pretend DC editorial is angellic when in fact it's not. <br> <br> And seriously guys, i'd like to know what is it that makes me Quesada's bitch, because i sure don't know. Sometimes you guys make it sound like i read anything Marvel puts out like a moron and i'd at the very least have to read CW for that to be even remotely true. I read a lot of Vertigo, have loved Catwoman and Hitman in the past, i read Morrison's Batman and All Star Supes, i read Tec...i mean i seriously don't get it. Alright, i liked HoM; is that because i'm Marvel's bitch or is it perhaps because i'm Bendis' bitch? I mean alright i admit it, i do read Ennis' Punisher. I do read Brubaker's Criminal. I've been known to enjoy the last couple of New Avergers. I like Ultimates. I love Ultimate Spidey. I like Nextwave. Now, do i enjoy all those titles because they're Marvel, or does the autheur theory reign supreme? I'd be inclined to say it's the latter, i mean i also read Desolation Jones by Ellis and that's technically published by DC. And Fell, from Image.

  • Oct. 13, 2006, 7:09 p.m. CST

    Darth Kal-el, et al....

    by Bootskin

    I understand how the TB works, and how these conversations can go, trust me. I've been coming here ever since I was looking for Star Wars Episode I "insider" information a long time ago in a galax....well, you get it. So yes, no need for explanations. But, I have always tried (most times in vain) to at least maintain composure when dealing with the opinions of others on here, seeing as most do not. But anyway, back to the topic at hand: I believe the idea behind a retro-active re-write a-la a fictional storyline such as Crisis (original) was pure genius. It had never been done before, and singlehandedly straightened out 9sort of..) a HUGELY convoluted mutli-verse. And instead fo just wiping it clean and starting anew, DC took the best parts (IMHO) of some REALLY stupid earth-1 earth 2 poo poo, along with dumb and inexplicable multiple characters with same names, and other such mindbenders, and fit it into a fun 12-part series. THAT took a shitload of imagination, and work on the current staff. TI would have been really easy to simply say; "fuck it, lets start over from #1 all over again, with no explanation." Although, they DID do this in some cases, I believe all in all it held up, and still holds up to this day. Matter of fact I read it the other day before I read IC. Anyway, I just hope to the comic gods that this (or something similar) is what they have in store at the (former) house of ideas. Because otherwise I will think that this CW will be a HUGE waste of my time and money. BUT, I'm enjoying it for now.

  • Oct. 14, 2006, 10:27 a.m. CST

    Vale & Marvel

    by TheRevengeOfBayouWilly

    If you like a lot of Marvel, you're not the only one. I'm an unabashed Marvel Zombie and tend to give them some leeway. Of course, sometimes they break my heart, like when they pissed all over Morrison' run on X-Men. So, you hire Claremont, find out he's stale, hire some new blood, piss him off, then hire the stale guy again? What the...

  • Oct. 14, 2006, 12:11 p.m. CST


    by The Heathen

    Now I know you read a lot of everything, but as far as DC's Superhero universe and Marvels Superhero universes are concerned you seem to always favor Marvel. In now way is DC 'angelic' but I find it funny how you rag on them for at least trying to fix mistakes. Marvel just sticks it to the fans and say's "deal with it." I'm actually not sure if your serious or not, but as far as that goes I don't get it. I guess it's because like you said, this Roundtable was addressing the problems of Marvel Editorial and you wanted to be different so why not do this! A 180! I dunno. I like good books and I like my publishers to try and make good books that sell because they're good, not because they're nothing but gimmicks. DC has 52, it's a gimmick. It's gotten lukewarm reception. It's good sometimes and bad at others. Marvel has it's entire Superverse tied into 3 cross-overs and admits as much fault as Dubya does. Call me crazy but I won't leave anyone's actions alone just because they're being ragged on in a case like this that involves something bigger than just a personal argument. I'm no Marvel Zombie, look no further than Buzz's analogy for that, but I'm not a 'whatever DC people' call themselves are either. Despite Batman, Superman and Green Lantern I really like Marvels characters a lot more. Or at least I want to, but Civil War isn't making it easy. Stuff like Bendis' recent NA issues, Runaways, everything Brubaker (Uncanny, DD, Cap) and Astonishing are what keep my faith though. I don't know if any of this makes sense, but here it is. <br> <br> Oh, and... you know I love you shortcake. ; )

  • Oct. 14, 2006, 1:20 p.m. CST

    Reading about comics is much more fun than reading them

    by INWOsuxRED

    at least these days. CW is probably doing Marvel well in that the hype caused me to take time to read about it, and look at some comics at the bookstore, but rather than draw me back as a fan, it just confirmed what I thought about comics these days, which is they suck. I'm sure there are some good things out there, but its more bad than good. The last few times I looked for something in a comic store was for the more recent issues of Eightball, and most of the comic store owners around here hadn't heard of it, even post Ghostworld movie. I would strongly recommend to anyone who claims to be a new fan because they read CW that they should go out and get back issues from when Marvel was good(or DC for that matter), or maybe look into some collections of decent storylines from the past. You seriously deserve better than Civil War, and it isn't that hard to find better. All of the characters you like in Civil War have seen better days.

  • Oct. 14, 2006, 2:28 p.m. CST

    I'm purdy and taste like strawberries

    by El Vale

    Alright, Cogs of the world...after a lot of soul searching (not to mention lots and lots of drinking) last night, i'm gonna have to give you the edge when it comes to being partial to Marvel characters. Meaning i do admit i've always thought they were cooler. I've always been in favor of the X-Men and Daredevil and even Spider Man, whereas DC has Superman and Wonder Woman and Green Lantern and i dunno...bleh. That said, All Star Supes is prolly my fave comic right now, i don't look forward to any other book more. Oh and i see all this CW crap, all this talk about Iron Man and Captain America...the Fantastic Four, Thor...i have no interest in those characters either, i mean i haven't even checked out Bru's Cap. Which i should, i think, just because it's Bru. So i guess what i'm trying to say is yes i like Marvel better than DC in some cases but that doesn't mean i'm a Marvel zombie and editorial doesn't have its hand down my pockets and not only because i'm a shameless thief either. <br> <br> Yes i do give DC shit, but not for trying to fix mistakes. Fixing mistakes is great. People who fix mistakes are alright, as far as i'm concerned. What i don't like is the way they "fixed" them. I would've had tons more respect for DC if they would've just said "Hey guys sorry, we fucked up. We're starting from scratch" like they used to do in the old days. <br> <br> And about superheroes, sure...they're cool sometimes. I like superheroes. But as you've seen, if i'm reading a Superman book it's because Morrison, bless his heart, is writing it. And Brubaker. And Bendis. And that's just the market, this is what they have to do to make a decent living, so i wouldn't mind if the superheroes went away and we started seeing some growth around this parts. I'm sick of writers having to dress the stories they want to tell in superhero attire so they can have a shelf life. If you want to write a science fiction comic, do it as a Superman comic. If you want to write a space opera, do it as an X-Men comic. Romance comic, Spider Man. I don't know...i just don't like it this week.

  • Oct. 15, 2006, 10:57 a.m. CST

    I understand…

    by The Heathen

    And what you said made a lot of sense my friend. Do you think it would ever be possible to start over? Does anyone have the balls to do so? We're probably just going to get a civil crisis every couple a decades it seems. I dunno, I feel kinda jaded about the whole thing right now too to be honest. This Roundtable exhausted me. After reading the Q&A we did, it made me want to root more for companies like that that don't have a mandate, but just want to put out stuff that makes them proud. It's noble and different in these times.

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 12:16 a.m. CST

    I was there when The @$$holes first @$$embled

    by mortsleam

    Started out fun. Became less fun right aorund the time they started using their real names. Then a bunch of new reviewers showed up, who, frankly, I can't stand to read. Their tone, their writing styles, their opinions, just all no fun. But then again comics themselves haven't really been much fun for the past two years or so, have they? And it doesn't look to get any better. This Civil War/52 de-re-construction crap is sucking the life out of the industry. I think it's the last gasp before the entire medium dries up and blows away. The disrespect for the characters and the short term splash without regard to long term consequences will result in universes that are confusing, distancing, and... well... no fun. And short of a real Scarlet Witch coming along and rearranging reality so that Bendis and Millar didn't take over Marvel and the Infinite Crisis was never greenlit, there's no way they'll be able to fix it. Comics will be gone as a viable art form within 6 years. Which I think is what the Mayans were really prophesizing.

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 1:59 a.m. CST

    Comics will never cease to be a viable art form

    by El Vale

    Maybe superhero comics will crash and burn taking the american industry with them...but look towards Europe, where they paint comic book characters on airplanes to celebrate a new book coming out, or Japan where everyone reads a comic on their way to work. People will always want to make comics, and people will always want to read comics. Sorry, comics haters.

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 11:25 a.m. CST

    Bayou Willie, Be A Marvel Vampire!

    by Buzz Maverik

    I was the world's biggest Marvel Zombie. Especially when I was a kid because DC had Superfriends and I wasn't going to read that stuff. I was truly disillusioned when I discovered that almost 100% of my favorite Merry Marvel Madmen were also writing and drawing comics for DC. But I will always have a strong pro-Marvel bias. I'm always more attracted to their comics. Often, this results in the greatest disappointments. I think that too often here we talk about the comics of our youth or are accused of yearning for the comics when we were younger, when, without even realizing it ourselves, we just want something well done. Opinions differ, of course, but the true Zombie is not capable of disappointment. It's not that I want comics like the comics I read as a kid, although that wouldn't be as bad as everyone thinks, it's that I want comics as good as the novels, movies, TV shows and other comics I enjoy. Making comics is a difficult job. If you look too much to the past, you're stuff is dated. If you look too much to the present, your stuff is trendy...and about to be dated. Vampires, however, are more autonomous memebers of the undead than zombies. Voodoo zombies like Marvel's Simon Garth are controlled by others. The living/walking dead are just mindless. Vampires, like Marvel's Dracula in TOMB OF DRACULA, or Blade, make choices and have ideas. They're still dead, but...So Marvel may be where I always return, may be my comfort zone and what I prefer, but as a vampire I'm capable of more, the zombies never get to sit at the cool table in the cemetary.

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 11:34 a.m. CST

    Nah, In 6 Years...

    by Buzz Maverik

    ...people who have been reading this column will be making comics...and then, brother, we're all really going to be in trouble.

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 11:43 a.m. CST


    by Thalya

    "If you look too much to the past, you're stuff is dated. If you look too much to the present, your stuff is trendy...and about to be dated."<BR><BR>That's just beautiful, Buzz.

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 3:25 p.m. CST

    Why Thank You, Thalya!

    by Buzz Maverik


  • Oct. 16, 2006, 4:08 p.m. CST

    HOLY F*@#!!!

    by Thalya

    Newsarama<BR><BR> DC January solicits<BR><BR> MANHUNTER COVER!!! <BR><BR>LOOK!!!<BR><BR> NOW!!!<BR><BR><BR><BR> (if there was ever a way to grab attention to that book, DC just did it)

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 9:48 p.m. CST

    How bout this?

    by El Vale

    On the cover, Manhunter takes a steamy shit on Bush's chest. That's an attention grabber right there. <br> <br> Call me, DC marketing people!

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 9:56 p.m. CST

    *raises eyebrows*

    by Thalya

    Dude, you might want to pry yourself free from the hentai tentacles of adolescence before they start raping you AND your childhood..<BR><BR> *shrugs* What can I say? When a wordplay opportunity presents itself, I go for it, regardless of how I actually feel.<BR><BR> Your turn for a retort, Vale. :P

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 10:07 p.m. CST


    by Thalya

    Did I mention I think you're a better writer than to resort to that level?

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 10:07 p.m. CST


    by dregmobile

    Finally got around to reading all of the Round Table. A little late, but well done, guys! That was a great point Professor Ambush Buzz made about the regular titles having weak stories - that has been my major gripe with the series, though the Wolverine arc has always been strong, and Spider-Man and Frontline are heating up nicely. I personally hope Hulk will play a role toward the end, but it's not looking like Planet Hulk is ending any time soon ... <br> <br>Finally got around to reading the first Fables trade. Thanks for those (I can't remember) who recommended it. I liked it, but am assuming it gets better, since I didn't really understand the hype I detected (that it's the no. 1 comic around right now), since while I enjoyoed it, wasn't kicked in the balls by it ... <br> <br> Also hit Identity Crisis, and was glad I finally gave it a go. Really, really liked it until it ended, and realised the shadowy villains were not going to be punished for their actions, or even recognised for committing them. Question for anyone knowledgeable with DC: I have all the JLA's, but were these bad guys in Identity Crisis ever punished for what they did in any other books? Anyway, at least now I know how Firestorm and Tim Drake's dad died ... <br> <br>Something I noticed about Marvel Vs. DC sales ... seems DC in four weeks of 52 made more money than the fourth issue of Civil War ... ! Very smart, DC. I'm not falling for it, but very smart ... <br> <br>Now on to Blacksad ...

  • Oct. 16, 2006, 10:12 p.m. CST


    by Thalya

    Which bad guys in particular do you mean? Jean Loring? Secret Society? And btw, was that not Calculator-goodness, or what?

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 12:34 a.m. CST


    by El Vale

    About Fables, yeah, it gets better. Waaay better. By the time you reach "March of the Wooden Soldiers" you'll barely be able to keep your bodily functions in check. <br> <br> By the way, i've found that tends to happen quite a lot: The first arc of a critically acclaimed series is always the weakest. Which is good, innit?

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 12:37 a.m. CST


    by El Vale

    I don't think that's true, even tho i'd like to.

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 1:21 a.m. CST

    Interesting ...

    by dregmobile

    Then mark me down for the next Fables trade ... <br> <br>Thalya, not necessarily Jean Loring, but yeah, the Calculator, the puppeteers of the entire plot, so to speak. They just seemed to hang out at the end muttering "Told you we'd win", etc. I don't think there's anything that shits me more than having a complete arc end without the bad guys getting their commupance (just how the hell do you spell commeupance, anyway?). That works in favour long-term, if there are shadowy villains we know our heroes will eventually cross, but I'd just like to have seen that happen instead of seeing everyone gutted at the end of the arc. Or was INFINITE CRISIS supposed to be finale/continuation of those stories? Any clarification here would be great!

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 8:45 a.m. CST

    Well, like Batman said..

    by Thalya

    Calc was innocent here. Sure, he arranged a hit or two, but it wasn't his story. IDC, at that, was a deliberate downer that set up everything for Infinite Crisis and provided motivations for that. Calc's comeuppance will be a long time in the making, after something much more egregious, but Shadow Thief got prosecuted for killing Firestorm over in Manhunter (and wound up escaping, though Monocle got beheaded in the process). Dr. Light is still at large, though he got a pitcher of hot coffee poured in his lap by Talia al Ghul. Deathstroke's currently in jail thanks to Ollie Queen, though for unrelated reasons, and the rest of the villains are out there in limbo, waiting for a new story. Hope this helps.

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 8:47 a.m. CST

    Eesh, Vale..

    by Thalya

    I honestly think that. You're usually much more imaginative than to resort to scatology. I see evidence of that every time you write.

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 9:25 a.m. CST

    It took me forever to find that Manhunter picture...

    by loodabagel

    And it took me even longer to figure out which one it was. And then I said "Hey, wait a minute! That guy's not supposed to be alive!"

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 10:10 a.m. CST

    Who copped a squat on Bush's chest?

    by The Heathen

    Anyway, if he really is back then… really? I mean, come on DC, don't give me that. I haven't been reading Manhunter, but I got the recent few issues to try out courtesy of Thalya's recommendation. But that cover certainly does get attention.

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 10:19 a.m. CST

    I went to the bowling alle this weekend...

    by loodabagel

    And in the back, thay had an old ninja turtles arcade game. The cashbox was broken so you could give yourself some free games. I made it all the way to the skateboarding level before I had to leave. Damn, I want to play that again sometime.

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 10:57 a.m. CST

    Of course the real reason..

    by Thalya

    He's on the cover because Wonder Woman's on trial. Ted may wind up getting better treatment than Barry Allen.

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 11:05 a.m. CST

    Then why's he "shushing" then?

    by The Heathen

    "Shhh, I'm dead. My head got blown off." <br> <br> TMNT is awesome. I want that and the X-Men arcade game in my house now. <br> <br>Check the emails, Thal. ; )

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 5:39 p.m. CST

    Green Arrow: Year One by Andy Diggle and Jock

    by The Heathen

    I can now by a Green Arrow book. Sweet.

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 7:23 p.m. CST

    I've heard a lot of bad stuff here about Kevin Smith's

    by dregmobile

    GA run, but they were the only GA books I got, and I liked them. Think I got the Meltzer ones after he ended, too. <br> <br>Thanks for the recap, Thalya. You sure know your DC! Couldn't find that Manhunter pic, but will give it another try ...

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 9:27 p.m. CST

    Well, undoubtedly the details of his death are going to

    by Thalya

    ..finally com out into the DCU proper.<BR><BR> 'Welcome dreg. But I guess I'd have to know my DC judging by the amount I've paid that company thus far, to say nothing of the fanfic research.<BR><BR> And a hint on that Manhunter cover: she's not featured on it.

  • Oct. 17, 2006, 9:36 p.m. CST

    I second that, Heath

    by El Vale

    That sounds pretty awesome. And i haven't even read The Losers. Man, i am such a hack.

  • Oct. 20, 2006, 11:49 a.m. CST

    Newsarama Blog just linked here.

    by Squashua


  • Oct. 23, 2006, 8:04 p.m. CST

    I think I'm Last.

    by dregmobile

    Not sure yet ...

  • Oct. 24, 2006, 9:49 a.m. CST

    I think I'm last now...

    by loodabagel

    Wow, we've been slacking on this one.

  • Nov. 2, 2006, 6:57 p.m. CST

    I've been last ...

    by dregmobile

    since before you were born.

  • Nov. 8, 2006, 1:21 a.m. CST


    by blackthought

    where i belong.

  • Nov. 9, 2006, 9:54 a.m. CST

    I've been last...

    by loodabagel

    Since before your mother existed.

  • Nov. 12, 2006, 12:06 a.m. CST


    by blackthought


  • Nov. 16, 2006, 2:21 p.m. CST


    by Squashua

    Here I am. Rock you like a hurricane!

  • Nov. 21, 2006, 10:05 a.m. CST


    by loodabagel

    Oh Honey don't!

  • Dec. 1, 2006, 4:29 p.m. CST


    by Squashua

    I won't, then. Keep on keepin' on!

  • Dec. 5, 2006, 9:50 a.m. CST


    by loodabagel

    Chicago, New Yor and Detroit. It's all on the same street.

  • Dec. 8, 2006, 1:04 p.m. CST

    by Squashua