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A spy pays a visit to JESUS CAMP!!

Ahoy, squirts! Quint here. The more I read about this movie, the more I'm sure it's the scariest film I'll see this year. This is a real life horror movie in my eyes. I'm actually nervous about watching it because I'm afraid of what I'll see. This review is extremely well written and does a good job trying to separate the religion from the horrible acts described. Enjoy!

I sat on this review for about a week trying to decide if it was possible to discuss this film as a piece of art rather than to just debate its content. I've come to the conclusion that it's impossible. The fact of the matter is this: JESUS CAMP is a straightforward, blandly-produced documentary with very little to note aesthetically. The shots are simple; the subjects are obvious; there's no daunting musical score. The characters it follows and exposes are exceptional and the story is less created and more just left to observe. It seems as though there was no attempt whatsoever to establish a narrative. And it didn't need an attempt. Because even as thinly-coaxed as this is, it still managed to break my heart. By now you likely know the specifics of the title: the film explores the lives of a few select Evangelical Christians – those planted firmly on the extreme right side of the religious playing field – and follows them to a church camp in North Dakota called "Kids on Fire". At this camp these children – most ages 7-13, it seemed – are taught that they are to rise up as part of "God's Army", all intangible in bringing Jesus back to America. And before you squawk about how this film demonizes perfectly wonderful Christians, please remember this: all those involved, based on their recent interviews with media outlets, are thrilled as to how they were portrayed. I'm not going to pretend to be unbiased here. I'm a moderate-liberal Libertarian who was raised Christian and is now staunchly agnostic. My patience with the religious right – politically – has worn thin. Like a lot of even-thinking Americans, I realize that A) these Evangelicals do not represent all Christians and that B) anyone living in this country should be free to choose to believe whatever the hell their (hopefully) happy heart desires. It's part of the basis of our Constitution. So, however – in a point that seems largely forgotten to some – is the fact that no religion should be a part of government. It is with all of this in mind that I ask you, for a moment, to forget that this film has anything to do with religion whatsoever. Because though religion has a heavy hand in the themes and ideas presented in this movie, the main undercurrent is about something far different. This is, quite simply, an accidental cautionary tale, and the message therein is obvious: children can be brainwashed to believe anything. JESUS CAMP proves that in spades, and as sure as rain makes you not-dry, it's an EASY process. It's very clear from the beginning as one of the main boys – aged 11 or 12 – tells Pastor Becky, the woman who runs the camp, that he "got saved" when he was five years old because he, "just wanted more out of life." At age five. There's an adorable ten year-old girl who loves to dance but admits that she has to check herself now and again because she doesn't want to be like Britney Spears or Lindsay Lohan. She wants to dance for God – and yet, like the two starlets often do, she still sometimes makes a mistake and (as she explains with a sullen expression and her head down) dances "for the flesh". At age ten. Yet another precocious little girl, about the same age, has been conditioned and encouraged to evangelize to strangers in the bowling alley, at school, and on the street. She's been convinced that she can sense when someone "needs God in their life" and that she can point them to His grace. Towards the end of the film she approaches a group of black men and asks them, "If you died today, where do you think you would go?" One answers, "Heaven," with a bemused laugh. She checks several times to make sure that's what he meant, then thanks them and leaves, telling her friend, "I think they were Muslims." These are a few of the many examples that this film spills out that shows us, without a doubt, that these opinions and behaviors are not those of children who have been taught to think for themselves. Further scenes show us that Pastor Becky and the other church leaders and camp volunteers fervently – almost violently – berate these children, telling them that though they might say they're "good Christians", they break every day. They swear. They lie. They dishonor God. They read HARRY POTTER. And the only way to Salvation is to give their lives to God's Army, to repent for the awful nature of being a pre-teen, to convulse and apologize to the heavens in tongues. Under the watchful eyes of not only their church officials, but their parents and each other. And that's where we realize the absolute travesty that's befallen these children. Everyone in America is guaranteed a CHOICE to believe whatever they want to believe...and these children have been denied that choice. Their rights were violated before they even knew what rights were. They've been turned into robots. They've been turned into pawns for a greater religious and political movement. Don't think that the scene where the kids are goaded into worshipping a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush is anything but worship. Oh sure, they call it "blessing" him, but it's idol worship – which, the last time I checked, was a direct violation of the Ten Commandments. Think they worshipped a cutout of Clinton the same way? It's doubtful, seeing as they're given these children a day-long lesson on the evils of abortion and telling them to pray for Bush to appoint a judge that's friendly with criminalizing the practice. They're part of God's Army now, and they need to make sure that Congress and the White House are stacked with their Generals. And that's to say nothing of the fact that there's no need to have any kind of discussion with eight year-olds about abortion. If people were taking their children to Yankee Camp and teaching them to worship Derek Jeter, we'd claim it was a disturbed cult. If they were headed to Phish camp and taught about marijuana, it'd be a crime. And yet I'd ask you how it's any different at all to take these kids and form their spirituality for them. And then take it a step further and make them a group of pawns to guarantee future electoral success. Don't be fooled by the morons who tell you this is a movie that's liberally biased against Christianity. Oh, it's liberally biased all right, but not against Christianity – it's biased against child abuse, and these "Christians" just happen to practice one of the most covert and yet, somehow, blatantly obvious forms of it. This is not an art film. It's not beautifully photographed. It's not fair and balanced. It's not a flight of narrative genius. All the director/producers had to do was show up, point, and shoot. But as an exposé into an absolutely terrifying form of the same training that was most notably popularized by Hitler and, more recently, Al Qaeda, it's as important as anything you'll see this year. Especially when you realize that these people are milking these children and their delicate psyches until they break. Those that do have had the capacity to bomb abortion clinics. For starters. Is anyone stupid enough to believe that it's going to stop there? Mr. Winston

Readers Talkback
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  • Oct. 3, 2006, 1:37 p.m. CST

    i can't wait to see this

    by OneintenMan

    when is UK release?

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 1:37 p.m. CST

    i can't wait to see this

    by OneintenMan

    when is UK release?

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 1:41 p.m. CST

    sorry about the double post by the way...

    by OneintenMan

    happens to the best of us sooner or later I guess.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 1:42 p.m. CST

    Religious TB melt down in 3... 2... 1...

    by brycemonkey

    Commence TB melt down. Christians this... blah, blah, blah. Jews this... blah, blah, blah. Muslims this... blah, blah, blah. Then repeat for Republicans, liberals, deomcrats, facists, commies etc. etc. (sigh).

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 1:42 p.m. CST

    first second and third

    by OneintenMan

    is that arrogant?

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 1:48 p.m. CST

    Let the brainwash begin!

    by Bean_

    All hail His Holiness George Bush.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 1:51 p.m. CST

    I don't understand the fear reaction

    by PhilConnors

    Do these people deserve to be mocked and ridiculed? Yes. But feared? Please.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 1:53 p.m. CST

    The Bush cardboard thing IS idol worship

    by KnightShift

    Christians aren't supposed to need a physical representation of someone to pray for that person. It begs the question: why the hell is there a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush in ANY "Christian" place at all? (And I ask that as a devout Christian myself). The worship-the-cardboard-Bush thing smacks of too much Gnosticism, truth be known...

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2 p.m. CST

    AWESOME REVIEW

    by tile_mcgillus

    WoW! Great job Mr. Winston. I would love to read more of your reviews. Calling a spade a spade is something that is lost in today's society and you did just that with the child abuse comment.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:16 p.m. CST

    Man O man...

    by vivavitalogy

    I hate it when zealots give the rest of the Christians a bad name. I also hate it when agnostics, athiests etc. lump all Christians into the same group because of what they see on TV or in the movies. There are believers who aren't crazy!!!!

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:21 p.m. CST

    PhilConnors

    by Farley Flavors

    When you consider that we currently have a President, a Congress, and a Supreme Court who will bend over backwards to appease these people, I think it's perfectly sensible to be afraid.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:25 p.m. CST

    Loved the review right up until...

    by Childe Roland

    ...the obvious, easy and over-the-top Hitler reference. The surest way to transform yourself from a passionate critic of an ideaology into a frothing lunatic in the eyes of its supporters is to play the Hitler card (Al Quaeda would have been more than enough and symmetrically far more appropriate for the subject matter). I know some of these kids as young adults now. The fear response is actually pretty reasonable. When someone's only response to thought provoking questions about their faith and the idea of god is to angrily shout some very rehearsed sounding speech about having been lost until they were saved and how now they know god and how you are most certainly going to hell, it scares you a bit. Not thinking that they might be right, but thinking that they honestly believe with all that remains of their thoroughly washed and reprogrammed minds, in what they're saying. Tell you what, if they're right, Heaven's going to be one scary fucked-up no fun place to be.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:28 p.m. CST

    Excellent review.

    by minderbinder

    Very well written and amazingly unbiased for such a powderkeg of a movie. Movie sounds pretty fascinating, but I don't know if I'd be able to stomach it to be honest. TB hasn't gone insane yet, I guess that will be very soon?

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:34 p.m. CST

    I'm a Christian. Are you scared yet?

    by BeeDub

    A documentary about normal, everyday Christians going about their lives and worshipping as they desired would be pretty boring. So we get this stuff instead.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:36 p.m. CST

    I just keep thinking of the clip I saw...

    by beefywhore

    where she screams at the kids that in the old testament that Harry Potter would have been put to death...of course what she forgets to mentions is that in the NEW Testament Pastor Becky would have been put to death...Those were the days...sigh

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:37 p.m. CST

    THIS IS NOT CHRISTIANITY

    by El Scorcho

    And I hope everyone that sees this movie knows that. This is a fringe cult using Christianity in a very evil way. It makes me very, very sad. God doesn't hate gay people, a woman that gets an abortion is not going to hell because of it, etc, etc... These people are should be exiled. Seriously.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:40 p.m. CST

    Fear

    by Almost_Human

    You should be afraid of these people for the simple reason that thier PRIMARY motivation is fear itself. They take a book of the Bible that was written by a questionable source (Revelations) which members of the laiety and the clergy at the time the New Testament was assembled considered the inclusion of a book so totally counter to the messages of the rest of the gospels selected that it almost didn't make it into the Bible at all. And the New Testament as we know it WAS assembled by MEN, don't believe it, read some history. Why were they so upset at about it? Because Revelations is a book about fear, hatred, intolerance and death. Worshiping with Revelations as your focus is totally counter to the rest of Jesus' teaching. That is what these people do indirectly is worship death. Think I'm uninformed? I should tell you I have an uncle who is a fundamentalist Pentacostal. I've seen the death worhsipping first hand. And I have some bad news for you. They, the radical Chirsitan Right are EXACTLY like al Quada: If you don't believe in THIER God and woship Him THIER way, you are going to Hell for certain and are as good as dead already. That lowers thier threshold to the idea of killing non-believers as not only okay, but a religious duty, to the point where it is acceptable and even desirable. I will say this clearly, so there is no misunderstanding, be it Christianity or Islam, fundamentalism is a form of mental illness. You should not fear these people like you would an arch-villian. You should fear them like you fear a rabid dog because the logic of rabies is as close to logic as you will get from most of them. And I personally feel that if Jesus (a wise teacher of love and compassion) were to come back tomorrow, my uncle and the rest of the Jesus Camp people are in A LOT of trouble. Normally I just read this site for fun. Never felt a need to post . . . until now. Movies are not important. They are entertainment. The behavior this documentary displays IS important. Why? Because when they came for the Jews, we didn't say anything because we weren't Jews and when they came for the Christian Scientists, we didn't say anything because we weren't Christian Scientists, but when they came for the Talkbackers, it was too late. There was no one left to ask for help. Now, take the red pill and start working on local election reform to keep religion out of government or take the blue pill and wait for the Christian Stromtroopers to kick in your door while you whack off to the idea of a Transformer movie.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:47 p.m. CST

    Fear Pt. 2

    by Almost_Human

    I should also add that my uncle is a Pentacostal preacher who runs one of those mega-churches. I've seen how it works FROM THE INSIDE, not just as someone who knows a single fundamentalist. Now........WAKE UP!

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 2:53 p.m. CST

    The psychotic running that camp is a "charismatic"

    by WannaBePoser

    They're a goofball sect that believes in talking in tongues, faith healing, and spontaneous "possession" by the Holy Spirit, which usually leads to uncontrolled bawling, dancing, and generally making an ass out of yourself. Yes, be afraid of zealots, but remember that they are a minority in this world. Seriously, what 5 year old needs to be saved? Answer: NONE!

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:03 p.m. CST

    now bring us JIHADI CAMP

    by Sir Loin

    This documentary was entirely too easy and they knew there'd be little if no resistance, so I challenge the same crew to go do a film about the kids forced to read nothing but the Koran for hours and hours every single day. Theo van Gogh wasn't afraid.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:09 p.m. CST

    Blimey

    by Angel Blake

    I thought people are free to believe what they want?? you can't honestly compare these Christians (ie- who are taught to "love their enemies") to Al-Queda - who are beset on torturing and killing their enemies. That is such a lame comparison. Also, nobody really likes the idea of burning in hell, Christians are taught to win over people's souls (not just leave them to the flames, i'm alright jack etc) -- i think that's quite a nice stance personally. I think the card-board cut-out of George W.Bush is a little misjudged (he's hardly a bastion of Christian morals) but i'm guessing it signifies the biblical teaching of honouring your Governments and leaders. Lastly, this chap's assertion that this film is showcasing "child abuse" is frankly ridiculous. I'm guessing that would be emotional abuse (I saw the trailer with the kid crying intensely), might i just add - kids cry over near enough anything. To loosen the definition of child abuse to include (somewhat zealous) Christian worship is bloody frightening! Orwell weren't wrong...i'm sure these kids have got a choice, they certainly look like they're engaging in something -- which is quite refreshing in such times of indifference.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:17 p.m. CST

    The Muslim paralell to Jesus Camp

    by Tar Heel

    This reminds me of a PBS special I saw where boys-only schools in the mountainous regions of Pakistan do nothing but study the Koran all day. One boy professed his extreme hatred of America but couldn't point to it on a map. The lesson for all of us? Indoctrination is not education.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:18 p.m. CST

    You're right Almost_Human....up to a point

    by JRtist

    If Jesus were to come back tomorrow, his message of tolerance, acceptance, mercy and forgiveness would be viewed as much a threat to these zealots (and likely the rest of the establishment church) as it was back in the day of Jesus Pt.1. And they'd crucify him all over again.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:27 p.m. CST

    Christians ARE NOT like Al Quada

    by Banshee7

    I haven't seen the film, so I can't comment on it one way or the other. What I do want to address is this idea that fundamentalist Christians are "just as bad" or "the same as" fundamentalist Muslims. Guess what? They're nothing alike. "What about abortion clinic bombings and doctors being shot?" Well, first of all, there hasn't been a death from either of those things in 6 years. Second, those things are done because the perpetrators are attempting to stop the killing of un-born children. It is not to turn everyone into a Christian. Get it? That's a BIG difference. I ask you, outside of the Crusades, which were 500 freakin years ago, where are Christians kidnapping people, cutting off thier heads, blowing themselves up in nightclubs and restaurants, shooting and beating people because they won't convert to Christianity? Answer: NOWHERE. Where are the Christian leaders going on national or worldwide television and asking thier worshipers to join a "jihad" and to "convert or kill" all the infidels? Answer: NOWHERE. No one with any intelligence can honestly equate the two. Muslim extremists want everyone to convert to Islam or...they WILL KILL YOU. Christian extremists want everyone to convert to Christianity or...I don't know. But they sure as hell won't cut your head off.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:33 p.m. CST

    Religion=BAD. Spirituality=GOOD.

    by Read and Shut Up

    Can someone please start teaching kids THAT lesson? Freaky far-right religious nutcases.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:35 p.m. CST

    YES IT IS CHRISTIANITY, just of an extreme nature

    by IAmJack'sUserID

    No matter the extreme degree of the portrayal, it does underline a problem with not only the religion, but of religion in general. Religion has been transformed from its personel quest for spiritual acceptance and belief into a fist to swing down onto others' rights and own views by wackos who cannot fathom what individuality is.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:45 p.m. CST

    Almost_Human....Amen, brother!

    by Ninja Nerd

    Religion, sports, and politics are usually subjects I stay away from because in every crowd, there's some polarized idiot waiting to pounce. But Almost_Human is, sadly, right on target. I was raised in a very strict, Pentecostal environment myself. However, I was blessed (pun intended) with a brain and the ability to seek knowledge. I took Bible History, Religions of Mankind, and several related courses to learn about ALL religions and ALL people. I came away from that as an agnostic. Personally, I think the concept of "God created us in His own image" is one of the most arrogant and stupid things ever uttered. Whatever God, Yahweh, Buddha, etc. Supreme Being there may be, he/she is likely NOT anything we can comprehend. Tragically....for many reasons...my younger sister, a very intelligent and talented person, probably thinks "Jesus Camp" is the best movie on Earth. One of the things the movie points out is that 80% of Evangelicals home-school their children. None of my sister's 4 children have ever set foot in a public school. The youngest being 16, they never will. They are totally convinced that Science is evil, the Earth is 6,000 years old, the vast Universe about us is devoid of any other creatures, and so on. Oh yes, the whole family refers to G.W. as "our man Bush" and are hard right in their every thought and deed. My nieces and nephew are literally living in a weird alternate reality, built by my sister and brother-in-law, and carefully maintained. When I visit, I have to be careful not to laugh out loud or cry many tears over some of utter propoganda they've been force-fed their entire lives. Sis would probably invite Pastor Becky over for tea. I would probably shoot her, but that is unlikely as I do believe in the sanctity of life. Last weekend, I heard author David Rakoff read an essay from his book 'Don't Get Too Comfortable'. This was in Tulsa at their biannual Celebration of Books festival. A Red city in a Red state. The first piece in the book is 'Love It Or Leave It' and begins with the line, "George W. Bush made me want to become an American citizen." The crowd was smiling...until he proceeded to explain that he is an openly gay Canadian resident alien who became a citizen because he feared the Patriot Act would leave him in a position to get "disappeared" someplace. He edited some of the piece on-the-fly because the natives were DEFINITELY restless and he was a little worried about escaping with his balls intact, he confided to me later in private conversation. (I bought the book and read the entire piece later that evening...it's good and it's sad because it contains some unpleasant truths) As for the movie, I want to see it even though I know pretty much what I'm going to see. Extremism of any kind is misplaced and likely dangerous, especially to those in opposition to the particular belief or viewpoint. Of course, most of the TBs here devolve into a microcosmic example of that, so this is hardly news, cool or otherwise.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 3:58 p.m. CST

    Banshee7

    by Almost_Human

    Beleieve what you like about Christians, they are still HUMANS. Psychology still applies. Messages of hate and intolerance are bad no matter if "signed" by Jesus or Mohammed. However, if you don't think a Christian zealot won't kill you for a BELIEF in the right circumstance (just like a Muslim fundamentalist or any other beleif that requires you throws love, tolerance and compassion out the window), then you haven't been paying attention to history. You've also missed the point. Christianity is not intrinsicly bad, nor is Islam, but like ANYTHING made by humans (and all religions are human constructs unless you have a tape of God writing the Bible Himself), it is flawed and those flaws can be (and often are) exploited for evil. It appears to me you're just another Christian with his panties in a bunch becasue I don't believe as you. If you want to see response by two people you DID understand, read the posts by Read and Shut Up and IAmJack'sUserID. Next time, make sure you've read and understand what you criticize or you can keep giving up control of your own thoughts and life to the ones who claim to know the nature of God better than you do (or can). The definition of a God means that understanding Him is impossible since all we can really understand is the world around us by investigation and experimentation. Since a God is above and beyond the contraints of physics, psychology, math or any other human science, any person who says he/she knows absolutely what God wants is simply full of shit and looking to control you. Have a nice day.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:10 p.m. CST

    NinjaNerd

    by Almost_Human

    I am glad you woke up. Comparative religious studies is a wonderful thing. I was not raised Pentacostal, but I was raised Christian. CR wasn't my major, but I took a lot of it and came out an agnostic at first and very disillusioned about the nature of all religions. I later migrated to philosphical Buddhism (not religous Buddhism, I have no regular tsonga although I do sometimes seek out other like minded people) as a practical system to not only improve the quality of my life, but those around me as well. The 8-Fold Path, regardless of what you think of religions, I found to be good practical advice and NOT incompatible with the core tennets of many religions of love, compassion and tolerance. My beliefs require I respect any and all religious beliefs as long as they don't abandon those 3 things. I think fundamentalism does abandon those concepts in a wholesale fashion and should not be tolerated from any religious (or political) persuasion. This documentary, I think you'd agree, illustrates just that: the danger of fear and hatred as motivational tools. I am sad, however, that your family holidays sound a lot like mine. Keep fighting the good fight, brother.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:11 p.m. CST

    JRtist

    by Almost_Human

    rofl, point taken

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:18 p.m. CST

    FUNDAMENTALIST Christianity is EXACTLY like al Qaeda

    by NapoleonDynamite

    The vast majority of both Muslims and Christians are not zealots but both religions have the same minority of miltant, intolerant, hateful and murderous extremists who think that anyone who doesn't believe in their own specific little fairy tale is their mortal enemy and should be killed. "Love your enemy," my hairy ass. How many Christian fundies are out there saying we should love Osama bin Laden? I think this reviewer ha it right -- this is a film about child abuse, not religion, per se. Yes, brainwashing is child abuse. Threatening children with hell is a form of terrorism. Children have the same right to think and question arrive at their own conclusions as everyone else. These kids are being taught that they have no freedom of thought or speech or religion. That psycho cunt of a pastor is telling them it's evil to read Harry Potter, for Christ's sake. What bothers me most is that this strain of Christianity is creeping more and more into the mainstream complete with its religious intolerance, its fear of science, its homophobia, its misogyny and its paranoid delusions of "persecution." The only difference between them and al Qaeda is that they have more money and power and better weapons. They can invade countries with whole armies, with missiles, with tanks and with bombers. Somehow they think that makes them superior to suicide bombers, but if you were to take away their army, the Christian fundies would be taking backpacks full of dynamite into Muslim preschools. I'd also like to add that anyone who believes in creationism is a fucking retard and should be sterilized.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:18 p.m. CST

    AngelBlake

    by Almost_Human

    Read my response to Babshee7. It applies to your statements.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:21 p.m. CST

    RE: Hilter

    by Jinxo

    You know, generally speaking I get the idea of being annoyed with Hitler being too easily invoked. Any time some one is evil or acting badly his name gets inappropriately trotted out. But in the way this reviewer is using his name, it's valid. He brings up the name specifically in reference to brainwashing and manipulating young minds in the name of ideologically perfecting them. That's right on point. Could have thrown Jim Jones in there too. Two levels of badness at play in all these situations, barinwashing people, what you are brainwashing them for. Always scares me when a group misses that the brainwashing part is in itself intrinsically evil and figure, "As long as it's brainwashing for 'good' (which of course we are) then there's no problem." I remember watching on one of the PTL style religious stations when they were talking about backwards satanic messages in music. Always fun to watch those folks go into a fit over Stairway To Heaven. Well in this case they actually found a religious song that played backwards said something like, "Worship Jesus." They all smiled and applauded and were just sooo happy about that. I did a triple take. Hello? People? STILL BRAINWASHING!!! Not saying I buy backward messages but the point was they did and as long as it was subliminal messages for Jesus it was all good.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:26 p.m. CST

    The second that these crazies actually affect my life..

    by PhilConnors

    I move to Canada. Heck, I'll probably move there anyway.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:43 p.m. CST

    jaCKie_O

    by Almost_Human

    I don't think anyone will correct your grammar or spelling since it is remarkable coming from a woman who died in 1994.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:53 p.m. CST

    zzzzzzzz.....zzzzzz same ol same ol

    by superfatty

    Same ol crap. Lets bash this faith, no lets bash this one. Or, they just want to control you. Give me a break. I love it when a documentary focuses in on the extremism of anything, and now anything related to it is so. NOT ALL CHRISTIANS ARE LIKE THIS I dont even consider them Christians. And please, get a grip on the situation. No one is out to control you. Talk about freakshow! Now go read your Bible!!

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 4:53 p.m. CST

    Talibaptists

    by tatoosh

    Same goals as the taliban...just a different religion.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:07 p.m. CST

    Talibaptists....

    by JRtist

    ...now THAT's funny! And I laugh having been raised in Texas as a Southern Baptist, the son and grandson of ordained ministers. In my early 40s now...I'm partial to the Episcopal church. They seem fairly open minded.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:11 p.m. CST

    superfatty and anchorite, tsk tsk tsk

    by Almost_Human

    Superfatty, Now go read your Bible? Nice logic, hippocrit. And if you don't think what this discussion is about is mind control, then you're not understanding what you read. Now, go LEARN SOMETHING. Anchorite, I know you are a longtime troll here so I don't know why I even bother to respond to your innanity except I am REALLY bored. If you think I'm afraid of Christians, you're not only a troll, but sorrily mistaken as well. It's fundamentalism that is the problem. I don't fear anyone (you included sport) just like I don't fear a rabid dog. But I am apprehensive around both they both bite and are bereft of logic. You're a lot like that too, except substitute bark for bite. Like I've told many responders, UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ BEFORE COMMENTING. However, given your trollish nature, either understanding is beyond you or you have borderline personality disorder and just LIKE being an asshole. And I don't even hate you for being one either. Have a nice day.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:16 p.m. CST

    80% of Evangelicals Homeschool?

    by Captain Mal

    Utter nonsense. I came out of an evangelical background, and of the hundreds of evangelical families I know personally, exactly one homeschools. Now, if you want to talk about how many of them go to private schools, that's a different story.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:20 p.m. CST

    I wanna go to Phish camp!!!

    by Mechasheeva

    No seriously, this review was the best-written, most thoughtful I've read on this site from anyone in awhile. Religious extremism of any kind is very frightening, even moreso when people who subscribe to these beliefs are leading your country, making normally tolerant people look at you cock-eyed when you say you're a Christian or a Muslim or whatever.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:32 p.m. CST

    Bravo anchorite...

    by Childe Roland

    ...for playing true to form. This time you didn't even put up the pretense of a well reasoned position. You just called us all fuckheads for not seeing the world as you do. That's special and so are you. Kisses.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:38 p.m. CST

    Thats just a flat out excellent review

    by IndustryKiller!

    nothing more to say. No argument possible no agreeance necessary.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:42 p.m. CST

    80% of Evangelicals Homeschool..?

    by beefywhore

    That can't be right...maybe the other way around, 80% of home schooled kids come from Evangelical familys. That might even be a higher percentage...

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:50 p.m. CST

    Quality of Review

    by Almost_Human

    In all the discussion of the nature of fundamentalism, I was remiss in congratulating Mr. Winston for an excellent review. Far above average for this site. Thanks!

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:50 p.m. CST

    Oh, and make no mistake, folks...

    by Childe Roland

    ...most of us commenting specifically on the behavior of fundamentalist Christians are fully aware that they do not represent the majority of Christians (some of us may even be Christians ourselves, making the indictments that much more meaningful). I personally do find it amusing that folks claiming there can be no comparison between fundamentalist Christians and Al Quaeda are unable to follow the paint-by-numbers parallel between blowing up an abortion clinic or shooting a doctor because those places and people are not subscribing to a belief they hold and crashing a plane into a tower for the same exact fucking reason. As it happens, it's been about six years since the last major demonstrations of succesful violence against innocents by either sect on American soil. I can tell you why the right wing Christian fundamentalists haven't felt the need to blow shit up in that time (and I'll bet you can figure it out for yourself if you look at who's been in power and which way the political wind has been blowing...the terrorists won that battle, it seems, although temporarily we can hope). Any guesses why the Muslim extremists haven't done much in the U.S. lately? Maybe because they already succeeded in demonizing the U.S. to the majority of the world (and we stepped into that role all too willingly). Maybe because they see the clusterfuck we've mired ourselve in over in the Middle East and figure we can do a better job weakening and killing ourselves than they ever could. Or maybe they're all too happy to watch us pour money and resources into an unwinnable war, setting ourselves up to be bought out and further humiliated by emerging economic powerhouses in Asia? Either way, the longer we keep it up, the closer they come to ultimate victory (i.e. leaving our nation a demoralized, frightened and destitute shambles of what it should be).

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 5:59 p.m. CST

    All religious indoctrination is child abuse.

    by Some Dude

    Oh, and those of you christians who pretend that these fundamentalists aren't "real" christians, you really need to read your bible. They are closer to "true" christianity than you. If that bothers you, why do you still cling to your magic book?

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:03 p.m. CST

    Even if you are one of the "nice" Christians...

    by Some Dude

    ... you still have "faith" in fantasy and myth and as a result are just as crazy as the fundamentalists.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:22 p.m. CST

    A Few Points to Talkbackers

    by Mr. Winston

    1) Childe Roland...I almost understand your dislike for the Hitler reference, but I encourage you to go back and reread HOW I used it to make a point. Is it an "easy" connection to make? Of course - because it's the most obvious and most sensical. If you see the movie and can explain to me how indoctrinating these children with any kind of narrow political belief is NOT like the very same tactics used with the Hitler Youth, I'll redact my comment. It's a striking parallel because it's so painfully accurate. 2) I think some of you complaining in the TBs have not fully read the review. I made a very careful point at the beginning to note that I didn't (nor should anyone else) subscribe to the ridiculous notion that these people represent all Christians. They represent a minority - but a very vocal, very focused, very politically powerful minority. 3) If #2 doesn't scare you - even a little bit - then I would refer you to the outset of WWII and 9/11 as furthered historical development of the same kind of zealotism. Did the Nazis represent the all of Europe? Nope, minority. But look what they accoplished on a grand scale. Does Al Qaeda represent the all of Islam? Nope, minority. But I would say that fringe groups are the "issue" in the current terrorist climate, wouldn't you? 4) Finally, and perhaps I should have mentioned this to steel the correlation, but Pastor Becky openly and happily (and that second adjective is sincere) notes, on camera in a personal interview, that she's impressed with the way the Muslim extremists train their children and that the only answer to their actions is to train our children in the same way.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:26 p.m. CST

    ummm.. liberal libertarian?

    by Cotton McKnight

    Clearly this reviewer is one of those idiot college age kids who is rebelling against mommy and daddy. Boo hoo, I was raised Christian and now I "question everything". Let me know when you grow up, and learn what "liberal" and "libertarian" mean, too.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:33 p.m. CST

    Oh, Cotton

    by Mr. Winston

    First of all it was "moderately liberal", and I made the point to denote that, while I find myself on both side of the Conservative/Liberal fence in regards to my political beliefs, because of my station I could in no way present myself as "unbiased" when reviewing this film. Even blatant honesty gets no credit with some of you hacks, does it? Next time I'll remember to apologize upfront for having a well-adjusted political worldview, since this apparently is a detriment inside the walls of Cotton's HappyTime Funhouse.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:34 p.m. CST

    hey everyone.. and that means YOU.

    by Cotton McKnight

    Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and anyone that has ever even THOUGHT about the meaning of life: resident talkbacker "some dude" has officially weighed in and theres no need to believe in any of that anymore. He calls it fantasy, and gosh, i think his revelations are going to change the world! Move over Gandhi, MLK, the Dalai Lama.. SOME DUDE begs to differ! Let this be a day long remembered. Amen.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:36 p.m. CST

    SomeDude, You Need To Fact Check

    by Almost_Human

    Your statement concerning the "real" christians is incorrect. If you consult theologians and comparative religious scholars, most do not consider fundamentalism close to the core of Jesus' original teachings and original christian churches. That would probably be Greek Orthodox or Koptic Christians since they diverged from what would become the Roman Catholic church early on and have been very consistent in practice since then. In fact, one of the theologians I know considers fundamentalism not a religious doctrine but a fascist political doctrine that subverts religion. Chew on that a bit. It sounds like you are just an atheist, which is fine, but have the balls to say so man. However, if you endose fundamentalism, you are part of the problem. And there are good and bad christians, just like there are good and bad of most groups including atheists. Personally I don't care if you worship a box of rocks as long as you don't try to force others to your system and perpetuate GOOD things like love, compassion and tolerance. Now if you just like being a miserable mean-spirit who likes bashing ALL christians, you need to take a valium and relax a little. Just because someone has a spiritual beleif system and you don't does not by default make you right. That makes you as guilty of the very same arrogance as every other person who says they have the corner on truth (or the nature of God, take your pick). You don't know what underlies our reality any more than anyone else (me included, as well as the Pope, Roger Penrose or a Mullah). That's why I focus on making life better NOW, not in some wild ass guess at what a "heaven" is like. If you are so certain that you are right, I offer science to refute you. German mathematician Kurt Godel proved in the 20's (30's?) that in any given system you have to have at least one premise that is assumed true even though it cannot be proven. He has a wonderful mathematical PROOF to show this. Mathematicians of the day were appalled but they learned to deal with it. Up to that point they were locked into the mechancial universe mindset created by classical Newtonian physics. Ergo, unless Godel was wrong (he's not), your system also has an "unprovable truth". For an athiest, I'd imagine that unprovable would be the non-existence of a god. For further reading, I suggest "Godel, Escher, Bach: The Eternal Golden Braid" by Doulas Hoffstader. It has a wonderful discussion of self-referntial systems in math, geometric graphic arts and music. There won't be a quiz.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:38 p.m. CST

    Yeah but what about he other part?

    by Cotton McKnight

    You know, my generalization that you are going through a "I'm questioning everything that mom and dad taught me" phase. I have seen that a LOT. Heck I even went through it myself.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:38 p.m. CST

    A spy? The film's been out for weeks!

    by LaudnerGomez

    What's next, a test screening review of CARS?

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 6:51 p.m. CST

    Anyone named Cotton . . .

    by Almost_Human

    can't be trusted. Cotton Mather was a crazed zealot of the first rank and he's the only other Cotton I know. Just because someone questions something doesn't make them immature. Unless you like people without ANY curiosity like GWB or without intellect like Anchorite/GWB. Mr. Winston carefully disclosed any bias he may have had, unlike you, who resorted to name calling right out the gate. For shame. Aristotle said that ad hominim attacks are the last resort of a weak mind. I was wondering if you went to the same school as Anchorite. . . you both plead your cases with equal elegance.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 7:21 p.m. CST

    Saved?

    by infamousralf

    First off, excellent review, Mr. Winston. Second off, to anyone who hasn't seen the film, you should. There is no sense in bashing it or praising it based on the trailer and what someone else says. This is something that you have to see for youself. The fact that the subjects of the film felt fairly represented speaks of the even handed nature of the film, and to say that it is biased against Christians is wrong - it is not for or against, it simply exists and leaves you to make up your own mind. A person's beliefs aside, it is difficult to dismiss the admissions of Pastor Becky as to exactly what she is doing at that camp - building God's Army. Whether you believe this is an admirable goal or not, you would hopefully be able to admit that these children are being indoctrinated - there is no other word for it. if you truly believe in God, then I would think that you would also believe that one must come to God of their own volition. There is a reason that all children under 12 are innocent in the eyes of God, and that is because they do not have the capacity to grasp Original Sin, nor to be held accountable for it. How can a five year old be saved? The greatest gift God ever gave us was free will. To not allow others to use it, whether you believe in God or not, no matter what your intent (remember, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions)is the greatest sin.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:02 p.m. CST

    Childe Roland

    by Immortal_Fish

    You're right, ultimately. Someone that shoots a doctor for providing an abortion or someone that blows up an entire abortion clinic is of the same troubled mindset as a terrorist. I can see why you find this evident comparison so very frustrating how its simplicity eludes the far righties. The thing is, the muslims want to slowly carve off the heads of your loved ones with a dull knife regardless of whether or not you wish to uphold RvW. It pains me how this evident comparison eludes the mental grasp of the many far lefties here and elsewhere. Hence, the comparison is no comparison. To reduce it to base religious ideology is too simplistic; i.e. "You're either with me or I'll kill you if you're against me." Where the muslim terrorists are concerned, it's of way more significant magnitude than that. You are comparing the few weak desparate attempts of the disorganized few to the militized strength of the meticulously many, some of which include nations. Again, yes, I agree there is a comparison when you reduce it all to the simplistic, least common denominator. However, I also believe that you're way too smart to stop there.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:12 p.m. CST

    But what can we do?!

    by u2aerofan

    I have never posted before on this site - I've never felt compelled to. But after reading this, I couldn't help but feel this rage boiling inside of me - the same rage I felt after seeing Farenheit 9/11, the Enron documentary or the Wal-Mart documentary. All of these films are great. It's nice to hear about different things going on and how we're all supposed to get mad as hell when it happens...what infuriates me about these movies is the don't tell you what to do about it. They light this fire under you but they provide no answers on how to handle to problems. Or at least where I can direct my anger. I am furious that these ignorant people get away with treating children like this. But I feel a little powerless to stop it. It's just overwhelming.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:31 p.m. CST

    u2aerofan, you suffer from "selective outrage"

    by Kamala

    From TIME: A teacher in France is the latest to face death threats for daring to criticize the religion and its prophet's emphasis on violence. Entitled "Faced with Islamist intimidations, what should the free world do?," Redeker's article called the Koran "a book of extraordinary violence" that shows the prophet Mohammad to have been "a pitiless warlord, pillager, massacrer of Jews and polygamist." The very day the piece came out, Redeker started receiving e-mail death threats. In a letter to a friend published this week in Le Monde, Redeker wrote that one website condemning him to death included a map showing exactly where he and his family lived, along with photos of him and his workplaces. In the letter, published as part of an appeal of support signed by French intellectuals including Bernard-Henri Lévy, André Glucksmann and Elisabeth Badinter, Redeker writes that he and his family are being forced to move every two days. "I'm a homeless person," he complains. "I exercised a constitutional right, and I'm being punished for it right here on the territory of the Republic." Redeker is only the latest in a lengthening list of Europeans who have been subjected to death threats from Muslims outraged by criticism of their faith and prophet.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:30 p.m. CST

    u2aerofan

    by ikkyu

    good question. i think - feel free to disagree - that we have to start *somewhere* and that has to be in our own hearts first. there's no value in getting angry - the more of us try to have a good heart and love our neighbours (even these crazy fundie fucknuts), the more power we'll have to change the world for the better. without inner peace, outer peace is impossible. by a person's actions, so shall you know them - these people ARE crazy fucknuts, not because they say they're Christian, but because they do crazy shit. nowhere in Jesus' teachings (or Mohammed's, according to a learned and devout Muslim friend of mine) does it say we should terrorize children, teach intolerance and foster hatred. that shit's fucked up, whatever you believe. but getting angry about it is the fast-track to becoming just as crazy as these loons, and the world needs sane and good people right now, not more loons.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:36 p.m. CST

    Mr. Winston

    by Immortal_Fish

    You wrote -- "I made a very careful point at the beginning to note that I didn't (nor should anyone else) subscribe to the ridiculous notion that these people represent all Christians. They represent a minority - but a very vocal, very focused, very politically powerful minority." Indeed. And none of them -- NONE OF THEM -- even begin to equal the threat of an Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah, or even the Durkadurkadurka Mohammedjihad. There are much bigger fish to fry. We should start questioning the folks that want to kill us all instead of the equitable ones that want us to start selling Amway.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:38 p.m. CST

    Let me clarify...

    by u2aerofan

    I don't wish these people harm. I think they're insane, but I don't wish death to them. I live in the buckle of the bible belt - I've been around these sorts of people for years - and been victimized by them often (and work in a public school where I'm regularly targeted for the fact I don't "go to church"). But I don't wish them harm. My outrage is really that our country seems to have been hijacked by this small segment of the population - and it seems like everyone wants us to pay attention to what's happening, but no one wants to tell us what to do about it! So, Jesus Camp is a great little doc that makes me angry about how things work. But where do we go from there? What's the answer? It's frustrating. It's like being held down and forced to take the torture - what else can you do?

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:51 p.m. CST

    u2aerofan

    by Kamala

    The fact that someone can make that film and not be killed the next week, or that we can discuss it on a board like this proves this country has not been 'hijacked' as you say. You should be more worry about the people across the globe who want to kill because you don't share their faith: In the town of Mansehra - set up initially with the help of the United Nations Children's Fund, Unicef - primary children were singing a song at morning assembly which many might find disturbing. It includes the line: "When people deny our faith, ask them to convert and if they don't, destroy them utterly."

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:51 p.m. CST

    u2aerofan, you need a balanced breakfast

    by Immortal_Fish

    In the beginning, I got all my news from the pre-primetime network broadcasts. Then, I got all my news from talk radio. Then, I got all my news from CNN. The subtext here is that I was listening to only the left, then only the right, then only the left again. My advise to you, since you're asking (else, I wouldn't be so bold as to offer) is to seek a mix of sources and find your middle ground. The best place to start is on independant weblogs. Then, watch newscasts that OPPOSE what you believe. Think of it as an acid test. Digest their data, then search for more info on the web. It's not unlike stock investment -- diversify and grow rich. To trust in one news source, indeed, to trust in one political party (or politically themed party, as docudramas do) is to commit political suicide. No one gets it wrong all the time. Even Ted Kennedy. ;-)

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:48 p.m. CST

    what else can you do?

    by ikkyu

    don't get dragged down to their level. lead by example - show them what tolerance and respect are. tell as many folk as'll listen that intolerance is *not* the way. make your voice heard - vote - find other sane people - oppose intolerance wiith tolerance, hatred with love, ignorance with wisdom. and don't be discouraged, bro.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:53 p.m. CST

    To: Almost_Human

    by thebearovingian

    You wouldn't be so bored if you had Jesus in your life.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 8:58 p.m. CST

    ikkyu, I disagree

    by Immortal_Fish

    You wrote, "we have to start *somewhere* and that has to be in our own hearts first." That sounds great in written form. It fails the test of immediacy. Consider a barroom in your mind. A barroom that you bounce. At the bar, there sits a small, timid man, biting his nails and shivering, saying "I can't take it. I can't take it," over and over. At the other end of the bar is a large, muscular man, slamming a cleaver into the bar shouting, "I'm gonna chop up the next muthafucka that steps inta here!!" -- Which do you remove from the premesis first? Granted, each pose an inevitable threat. But that's not the question. Which do you remove FIRST?!?

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:02 p.m. CST

    Immortal_Fish

    by Shirt Ripper

    Research Leo Strauss and the neocons, then research Sayyid Qutb and the history of the radical Islamists- and their inability to be any effective force for change in their own countries. An important question: How is it that they have been able to enact more change here in America than in Egypt? The truth is, Al-Qaeda is a marginal threat at best. 9/11 was an awful, vile, murderous act of desperation- not a real threat to our country or way of life. The current administration and the fundamentalists who vote for the neocons are the real threat to our prosperity and way of life. U2aerofan- I'm picking up what you're laying down. Vote democrat, that's all we can really do. Fundies brainwashing kids is just going to happen. It's insane but that's religion. We can at least stop their figureheads from winning elections and hijacking our country.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:01 p.m. CST

    I once brought up Hitler...

    by thebearovingian

    in a research paper concerning genetic engineering (specifically about parents possibly having the option of choosing hair/ eye color etc of their child) and my stupid professor wrote something to the effect of, "Don't be so quick to compare this with Hitler." I ask, "Why the hell not?" b/c that's what the fucker (and his Nazi bastard "doctors" i.e. brother Mengele) wanted to do by creating the Aryan master race. I was justified in doing so.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:10 p.m. CST

    Shirt Ripper: Please don't vote or breed!

    by Kamala

    When you start comparing America to Egypt, you tuned out and shut off. The real threat to our way of life is the useful idiots who are so busy standing up the terrorist who want to kill and the illegals who stomp all over their country, they won't see the day that Islamic law is running the country. Then you really won't see any gay marriages. Maybe some stones being thrown your way or some nice beheadings

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:09 p.m. CST

    Immortal_Fish, Submitted for your consideration

    by Almost_Human

    Evil is like a weed. To uproot it, that's where you start: the roots. In this case, the roots are intolerance, fear and hatred of those who are different. Now being that 98% of all readers here probably only have effect on thier local community if at all, shouldn't they start at home if the "bigger fish" are too remote? Also, as an aside, to say that ALL Christians are equitable seems quite naieve. Equity wouldn't condemn those who don't believe as they do and that is exactly what fundamentalists believe. I know because my fundamnetalist preacher uncle TOLD ME SO. It's not just that if you don't believe in Jesus you are going to Hell, but that if you don't worship EXACTLY as they do you are going to Hell and if they can't convert you, you are an enemy worthy of death because if you are not in "God's Army" you are a minion of Satan. Not only that, he backs politcal candidates based on whether or not they think they will help usher in the Rapture! That, no matter how you color it, is insane. Some more equitable Christians? Torqumada and Jerry Fallwell come to mind so understand, IT'S NOT ABOUT CHRISTIANS IT'S ABOUT FUNDAMENTALISTS. And the logic of the comparison holds. You resort to hyperbole by saying that NONE OF THEM are dangerous merely because they are Christians or not as dangerous as another fundamentalist group is specious logic. Hatred and intolerance are evil even in the name of Jesus. Remember, the Nazi party was a fringe politcal movement too until Hitler's boys burned the Reichstag and made him Fuhrer for Life (Diebold electronic voting, anyone?). Don't foget, the Nazi's had a distinct relgious ideology too.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:10 p.m. CST

    thebearovingian

    by Almost_Human

    You wouldn't be so PUSHY if you understood Jesus. Nuff' said.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:12 p.m. CST

    thebearovingian #2

    by Almost_Human

    You should also forgive me. Douchebag.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:15 p.m. CST

    Shirt Ripper, "How is it that..."

    by Immortal_Fish

    Q: "How is it that they have been able to enact more change here in America than in Egypt?" -- A: The American liberal media in tandem with the American liberal movement orchestrated by the far left liberal Howard "the Doc" Dean. The same liberal movement that finds no problem at all in doling out self-serving national secrets unless it involves self-serving national secrets involving Valerie Plame. If the right annointed Rush Limbaugh (just ONE example) as party chair it would be an (admitted) failure of its party to seek balance among constituents. That you blindly encourage U2aerofan to vote as you do instead of vote his opinion as I do speaks volumes. Thank you so very much for proving my point for me, before I even had to make it clear that I had a point to begin with.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:15 p.m. CST

    I'll think about it...

    by thebearovingian

    but I'm leaning toward forgiving you.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:20 p.m. CST

    Immortal_Fish

    by Mr. Winston

    While I understand your point and might agree that Islamic extremists may pose a more immediate and more inherently violent threat to Americans in general, you can't be lazy enough to just "fry those fish" first. It's that kind of sleepwalking that leads to fascist, exremist movements outliving their infancy and becoming full-blown epidemics. As a secularist who would like to keep religion a private movement and not a political one, JESUS CAMP was a movie that opened my eyes. Perhaps (and hopefully) the extreme Evangelical movement will never reach the heights of Al Qaeda or Naziism, but as a group I see them as particularly threatning to my personal liberty. That I should ignore this just because there are other dangers in the world? That's preposterous. It's like telling a man drowning in a river not to worry about the current because there are jagged rocks downstream.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:20 p.m. CST

    Immortal_Fish - I like my Wheeties with Raisins

    by u2aerofan

    I appreciate the advice, but I do a lot of that already. I actually get most of my news from internet sources – usually the BBC and the NY Times . I don't have television in my home, and if I did I certainly would avoid talking heads shows at all costs (O'Reilly or Matthews) and any of the major networks. I think you're all missing what I'm really asking: What are we supposed to do with a film like this? I understand that we all get to practice freedom of speech and religion here in this great country of ours, and I understand my choice of the world "hijacked" was a bit strong. But I'm a little sick of constantly being angered by what I see and not being given any lesson in what to do about it. (This, I should point out, is essentially propaganda.) I can go out and vote for the other candidate, but he'll loose. I can go out and start a grassroots campaign or a social movement if I want - but where will that get us in the end? The struggle for equality and tolerance in this nation has become greater today than it ever was, if you ask me. And while it's all peachy to "love your neighbor" and "find inner peace" - let's be realistic - that's not a viable option. I want to live a peaceful existence as much as the next guy, but I'm not apt to let people walk all over me touting their religious fascism (of ANY kind - be it Christian or Muslim). I actually am tempted to argue that the real agitators here are not the subjects of the documentary, but the documentary filmmakers themselves. The subjects of this documentary are very clear cut - Worship Christ or go to hell. At least we know where they stand. I think it is far more dangerous that these filmmakers (the Michael Moore types: Although I'm not ready to group this documentary in with his essay filmmaking yet) are out there agitating audiences with their art and providing us with many different ways to interpret (or misinterpret) their message. It's unclear, exactly, what their goal with this film is. Of course - it can always be argued that this is the way with all art. What I do know is this – I’ll be seeing this film, for sure, but I’m not necessarily comfortable with this sort of filmmaking.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:23 p.m. CST

    thebearovingian

    by Almost_Human

    Excellent. Maybe you understood what Jesus was saying better than your blanket assertion I need him in my life indicates. I know Jesus' work quite well, better than most having had 22 hours of comparative relgious studies and a lifetime of being around real hardcore Baptists and Pentacostals. I like Jesus. I like his teachings. I think what humans do to his teachings is an abomination. Like someone said earlier, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:28 p.m. CST

    Immortal_Fish

    by Shirt Ripper

    So Al-Qaeda has had more influence in America than Egypt, because of liberals? Your entire post was confusing. I want to understand your point, I'm just not sure what it is (or how I proved it?)

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:34 p.m. CST

    You people have already made up your minds

    by Immortal_Fish

    And that's perfectly okay. Majority rules. Ben Franklin said, "We have given you Federalism. I pray you can keep it." Federalism is not Democracy. And since the 60's, we have had a Democracy. If that is a victory to you, then you have no lust for what the founding fathers strove for since the beginning. Keep huddling to your masses. Keep that mindset going. Keep heralding in what you yourselves foretold in V for Vendetta.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:33 p.m. CST

    Mr. Winston's Logic

    by Almost_Human

    If logic were a boat, I like the cut of your gib. Double-plus good and avoid Room 101.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 9:42 p.m. CST

    Immortal Fish

    by Almost_Human

    What we have is not a democracy either. It a Federal Republic. And the fundie's are not the majority, they are just more organized to vote. Including taking nursing home patients to vote AND TELLING THEM WHO TO VOTE FOR EVEN IF THE PATIENT IS NON COMPOS MENTIS. Bullshit you say? Nope. That's exactly what my uncle did. To MY grandparents. Sounds like your the one with the made up mind. V For Vendetta is not a blueprint. It's a cautionary tale. Just like the gospels are not literal instructions, but parables designed to illustrate good behavior. Have people forgotten how to read and critically analyze it? I am starting to think so . .

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 10:15 p.m. CST

    You're right, Almost_Human

    by Immortal_Fish

    Only you allowed your uncle to make up the minds of your grandparents. Did you do anything to prevent it? Will you do anything to prevent it from happening again? If you don't, then you perpetuate the problem. And does it suck? Certainly! No less than it sucks how illegal aliens are getting drivers licenses or in-state tuition fees. Let's stop focusing on blind partasinship and start focusing on what's really happening. V for Vendetta was correct in so many ways that the left pontificates on yet doesn't actually realize. In your example, controlled voting is an initiative of the right that can't be proven yet is propagated by the left. Meanwhile, it is the left that is propagating controlled thought in the first place.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 10:35 p.m. CST

    To anyone that's replied

    by Immortal_Fish

    I beg your forgiveness that I speak English, pay taxes, go to work, and obey the law -- but it's 11:32 as I write this. I'm honored that so many of you want a reply from me -- which I WILL give -- but it just won't be tonight. See you tomorrow at 12 EST.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 11:01 p.m. CST

    Cotton McKnight: Theologians don't matter as much as...

    by Some Dude

    ...what it actually says in the bible. Theologians, whatever they claim their job is or means, serve the purpose of glossing over the barbaric elements of their "faith" by interpreting the bible for the majority who don't bother to read it. Funny that the word of a god needs interpretation by man. Fundamentalists, unlike the namby-pamby moderates who rely on theolgians, follow the bible to the letter without the audacity to say "This part is literal, while this other part is figurative." Thus, they are the "real" christians. If you want a new, more palatable christianity, then "have the balls" to publish an abridged bible with all the errors and hate taken out. As for your silly idea that I need to prove the non-existence of a deity... oh boy. Have you disproven unicorns, fairies, goblins and flying elephants yet? If not, why don't you believe in them? In science one does not disprove things for which there is no evidence. One proves using evidence. Take a crack at "Letter to a Christian Nation," "The God Delusion" or "Breaking the Spell: Religion as Natural Phenomenon" if you would like to know more.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 11:03 p.m. CST

    Immortal Fish

    by Almost_Human

    The left, as you call them, isn't organized enough to brainwash anyone. Hell, they don't even have a plan. As for my grandparents, I would have done something but I found out about ex post facto. Can't fix what you don't know about you jackass. You accuse me of not defending my grandparents? You don't know me. Throw the blame on me for my uncle's bad acts? Maybe you better ask my uncle about that because I bet his ass still hurts from the chewing I gave him. If your logic follows (which it doesn't) I should be able to sue your dad for not dribbling you down his leg. As for vote rigging and not having any evidence, excuse me? What was that I just gave you but evidence? You seem to try get over using that old political hack trick of "if they catch you doing something, accuse your enemy of the same thing". You are the very defintion of partisan politics. You're an amatuer, both in politics and in life. This is the LAST acknowledgement you'll ever get from me. Why? Because I don't play with amatuers. So flame on...I expect no less from a sub-par intellect like yours. Come one, fight back as hard as you can! Call me anything you like. It'll only make you look like more of a loser. I now abandon the voice of reason and take on the voice of a grandson. By accusing me of not defending my grandparents, you have abandoned polite discourse and entered in the realm of personal insult. Indeed, your slander is fighting words. Take this as I mean it, in the most sincere way possible: Fuck You. My grandfather provided valiant and decorated service in WWII, including helping to transport Fatman, he lost a brother in a plane crash during the line of duty and I also lost an uncle in Vietnam. You insult his august and loved personage at your own risk. What have your family ever done to secure the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Oh.......nothing, that's right. They just raised a fool with borerline personality disorder. You and Anchorite should go bowling. Niether of you have integrated personalities and have both probably never kissed a girl. I will now return to reason. Goodbye, Immortal_Fish. I'd wish you ill, but with that charming personality you have, I'm sure you are at a minimum a miserable small minded man which is its own punishment.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 11:17 p.m. CST

    BTW Cotton

    by Some Dude

    As for you ad hominem assertion that I am merely going through a phase of testing my parents' beliefs and will eventually revert to some form of "belief"... I realized over 20 years ago that there was not any evidence for god, 2 years after coming to the same realization about Santa Claus. I am surprised that more people don't come to the same conclusion since Santa is like the training-wheels version of a god. Anyhow, 20 years is a long time for a phase, but have "faith" that I will revert to superstition. I know you can wait, afterall it has been a few years since the "messiah" was supposed to come back.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 11:36 p.m. CST

    SomeDude, You Really Don't Get It

    by Almost_Human

    You really need to read Godel's work before you take that tack on the science. Your clearly misunderstand the scientific method. Things are disproven by a lack of evidence in laboratories and courtrooms EVERY DAY. You should also know that science, like any logical framework, can lead to false negatives. Logic, the root of science, is merely a tool and fallible as the person weilding it. And the Bible is literal? You are sorely miseducated. The Bible was written by various human authors between about 50 CE and 150 CE. It was collected into a single volume over a period of several centuries by the clergy of the Greek and early Catholic churches from many many gospels available. Some gospels said Jesus was married, some said he was gay, some gave examples of Jesus' bad behavior as a child (this last gospel, btw, is still taught in Islam and Judaism) . . . all kind of things I bet would get your panties twisted. Of the 22 epistles (23 if you count Revelations) NOT ONE PAGE WAS DIRECTLY WRITTEN BY GOD. In addition, they are parables. Do you know what a parable is? It is a story in prose or verse that is told to illustrate a religious or ethical idea. Taking one literally is about as smart as taking an episode of Leave It To Beaver as the literal truth about 1950's America. You can learn not to act like a douchebag from Eddie Haskell's example just as easy as you can from Jesus, but if you think Eddie (who was a bad kid) is the Antichrist or Satan's minion and should be killed or some such, it's just as dumb as saying the Bible is the literal word of God. It most certainly is not. You want proof? Dead Sea Scrolls anyd many many conflicting gospels other than the 23 in the New Testament. As for editing the Bible, if you'd learn to think critically for yourself, no editing would be needed. You'd see Christ's message is simple: Love One Another and God is Love. If you had to edit, just drop Revelations, that's enough. It provides most of the inconsistency with what Paul and all the others reported as the ACTUAL words and deeds of Jesus. If you take the time to research the history of the Bible, you'd know that it shouldn't have been included in the first place and almost wasn't. By men. Not God. You seem somewhat educated, but you seem to only read what reinfoces your athiest system. I know plenty about atheism and support your right to that view, however, it seems like you hate and rail against something you really know little about. People who think the Bible is literal are not brave. They are dellusional. P.S. You should also check out "Why I Am Not A Christian" by Bertram Russell.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 11:40 p.m. CST

    Fundamentalism Vs Extremism

    by Pete Soot

    This film looks so scary but I wish people would not use the word fundamentalism when they probably mean extremism. Surely fundamentalism in any religion is sticking to a strict teaching of a law or way of life. There is nothing wrong with practicing any religion at it’s most fundamental level. Brainwashing children or killing in the name of religion is extremism. I think the difference is important.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 11:48 p.m. CST

    SomeDude Again You Are Confused

    by Almost_Human

    You need to read better. You were responding to my statements (Almost_Human) earlier as if Cotton McKnight made them. No. I made them. Cotton was, indeed the one who said someone was going through a phase, but he wasn't referring to you, but rather the reviewer Mr. Winston. At times, you have been so close to being able to carry on an intelligent conversation, it's almost heartbreaking. I say this not as an insult, but a genuine inquiry, so please take no offense as none is meant, but do you have a reading problem? It seems you don't scan well. If so, it's nothing to be ashamed of but you should consider that as a possibility.

  • Oct. 3, 2006, 11:59 p.m. CST

    Pete Smoot's Language

    by Almost_Human

    I think you may be confusing fundamentalism with the concept of simple living. Asthetics are also often cofused with this concept for on the surface they are similar, but they are not the same. Simple living is probably best exemplified by the Quakers who have for many years excluded some forms of wealth and technology on relgious and ethical grounds. See the Quaker book, Testimony on Simplicity as an example. However, you raise a valid point. Simple living is not fundamentalism and fundamentalism as it is current used in most religous studies circles equates with extremism. Why? Becasue the fundamentalists have extreme views. However, simple living is a FANTASTIC concept. We'd have a much healthier and happier world if we all tried a bit o' simple living.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 12:22 a.m. CST

    Almost Human

    by Some Dude

    As I don't claim to be perfect, I don't mind mistaking one idiot for another. Sorry about that. Don't let your heart break over my error, instead let it break for all the poor children whose minds are warped by religion. Regardless, you still haven't presented your (or was it the other idiot's) proof of the nonexistence of flying elephants and unicorns. As soon as you can or need to do that, the same will hold true for gods. Also, it is not that I only read what supports atheism, it is that most serious writing and research supports atheism. The stuff written by "theologians" may refer to ancient texts, but they still lack any evidence as to the actual existence of a deity. Oh, and I am aware of the history of the bible and have read it cover to cover. I'm sure a few christians here will benefit from your refresher. One last addendum: you might want to research some of the quotes attributed to Jesus. They severely challenge the idea that he was either a good man or preaching a message of love. He demands much blood.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 12:26 a.m. CST

    Beer

    by calmwate

    Until the almighty one replies to my messages and joins me for a freakin beer - i think i'll continue to believe in meerkats! What!! At least they seem like they created the world..ehem..in seven days...ehem...Why?? ..cuz they're fast and stuff!!

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 12:38 a.m. CST

    Represent

    by tensticks

    Do these people represent all those who identify themselves as Christians? By no means. However, do these people represent the absolutely logical and inevitable conclusion to which a strict reading and interpretation of modern "Christianity" leads? Yes. Fringe group they may be, their contaminating effect cannot be underestimated. These people can and will take over Christianity at large, and they are doing it through fear, intimidation, and manipulation. "Moderate" Christianity will soon be as rare as "Moderate" Islam. Make no mistake. The most extreme, wacko, radical fringe of ANY faith is the one that will win out in the end...because they BELIEVE it more. Period. And in the end, the uber-radical Muslims will face off against the uber-radical Christians...and we'll be somewhere in the middle with a mushroom cloud over our head. Unless someone stops them.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 1:01 a.m. CST

    SomeDude

    by Almost_Human

    You've proven that you don't have a reading problem, but are instead, just plain stupid. I wasn't trying to prove God exists, you imbicile, I'm not even a Christian! In fact, I think, no, I know and can prove with symbolic logic or simple diagrams for your simple mind, that proving God exists or doesn't IS IMPOSSIBLE (see earlier notes about Kurt Godel). I was merely advocating that ANY VIEW, your narrow one included, that is counter to the principles of love, compassion and tolerance is not good. You want to be an athiest, fine, knock yourself out, but by insisting that NO relgions being taught, you are just as vile and evil as a Taliban or Jesus Camper. Just because you don't believe in transcendence you think NO ONE should apparently. Wow. What a dismal little world you live in. And I though Immortal_Fish was clueless, you are about to win the title. You are so dumb you even attacked me, the only person who remotely defended your earlier postions. Nice going dipstick. I bet you run a football to the wrong end zone too. You, Immortal_Fish and Anchorite are not capable of rational discussion. All three of you together don't make a good moron. To a one, you are all plauged with poor or non-existent education, pitiful logic skills and possibly mental illness. Have nice day being pissed off all the time at something you clearly don't understand, you dumbass monkeyboy. Last time I'll acknowledge you too.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 1:04 a.m. CST

    Calmwate

    by Almost_Human

    Have you considered George Carlinism? He worships the Sun and prays to Joe Pesce because Joe seems like a guy who can get things done.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 2:48 a.m. CST

    Thank-you, some dude

    by DarthCheesy-poof

    Because the Easter Bunny was recently spotted in Idaho, Elvis and Santa Claus were reported to have been spotted giving each other complimentary reach-arounds in Kalamazoo Michigan, Zeus and Quetzalcoatl are having a beer together at Mount Olympus. The "End of Days" must be here. When will people realize that religion is the root of all evil in this world? Does anbody watch CNN anymore? Every Fairy-Tale that we learned as children is destroying this planet. Any second now, the "four horsemen" will be bearing down upon us. I've got a great idea. Let's elect a leader that hates gays and arabs, loves the rich, and we will kick-start the armageddon, just so we don't have to listen to you bible-thumpimg idiots anymore.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 2:55 a.m. CST

    Oh yeah, and NinjaNerd-

    by DarthCheesy-poof

    You DA MAN!

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 3:22 a.m. CST

    Hmm

    by Booze Broads and Bullets

    Seems a bit fucked up but wouldn't mind seeing it. It was on the news here in Australia. Didn't see it tho

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:41 a.m. CST

    Wow, great discussion.

    by FuzzyWhisper

    Surely as entertaining as the documentary will be disturbing.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 7:58 a.m. CST

    Religion isn't the root of all evil.

    by Mr_Sleep001

    Humanity is just evil full stop. There has been much good fom religion. The Red Cross has its roots in Quakerism. Ghandi pushed to liberate India with Hindu principles. How much aid for the Tsunami came from religious organizations while secular governments twiddled their thumbs? I am biased as I work for a semi secular organisation (secular funding/Christian principles) that has helped regenerate a housing estate of 1000 homes. But then again secularism/atheism has been so much stronger for humanity. What with the holocaust, Stalinist purges, Tianamen square, the Chinese hidden holocaust. From a anthropological perspective societies were crushing each other before they established religion. Look at the conflict between Homo-Sapien and Neanderthal as an example. As much has been done in the name of reason and secularism as has been done in the name of religion. In the words of Bill Hicks were just a virus with shoes. That's either because of original sin or a sociological desire to dominate other people, depending on which side of the fence you're on.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 8:28 a.m. CST

    the kids in this film

    by Shigeru

    I'm not sure how one could make a judgement about them, because the filmmakers don't bother to treat the kids with any shred of respect. Just because you are 11 or 12 years old doesn't mean you can't be sincere about something in your life. I think that's extremely insulting towards these children.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 8:34 a.m. CST

    In response to your reply, Mr. Fish...

    by Childe Roland

    ...let me just say that one of us is definitely engaging in oversimplification. But it isn't me. You dismiss the Christian right as a loosely disorganized few in comparison to the Muslim radical movement? Your professed perceptions are either deliberate misrepresentations ot misconceptions based on exactly what the current administration would like you to believe about both groups. I have seen the clockwork organization and frightening mass of the Christian right. As a reporter (back before the Bush administration made a mission of placating them), I spent several months attending their meetings and listening to their careful orchestration of protests outside of clinics in my city...protests which led to several hospitalizations when the human chains refused to break and allow pregnant women or their doctors into the clinics. At these meetings, members of the radical right Christian pro-life movement bragged to each other about the number of times and different locations in which they'd clashed with law enforcement and been incarcerated. They discussed the most effective ways to resist arrest. They talked about similar meetings they'd attended in other communities and regions (one couple, in particular...a pair of trust fund babies who apparently didn't need to work...spent three quarters of the year touring the midwest and northeast specifically to participate pre-scheduled and carefully coordinated protests. I remember them so clearly because the husband was very proud of the scars his wife had acquired. So while they may not represent the majority of Christians, there are plenty of these fundamentalists who believe any means can justify their ends and that the righteousness of their beliefs outweighs the rights -- to life, liberty and happiness -- of the people they attempt to intimidate through menace and threats of physical violence (both implied and actual). As for the Muslims, apparently you are one of the many Americans who has a problem distinguishing between the comparitively few high-profile radicals who gobble up media attention with their heinous acts of violence and the millions of peaceful, law-abiding practicioners of Islam throughout the Middle East and the world. I don't blame you, necessarily, for this failure to form an informed opinion. After all, the American media has done its best to demonize all of Islam because terror nets viewers and fear sells. But I am disappointed to see you buy into that mentality. Because, based on other discussions we've had on other topics, I assumed you were smarter than that.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 9:04 a.m. CST

    Childe Rolande

    by Mr_Sleep001

    I don't see how an organisation such as al-Qaeda is merely a 'few high-profile radicals' apart from organisations as large as Hezbollah as minor as al-Mujharon have complex and numerous organisational hierachy. There are moderate Muslim movements in Europe that are aggressively lobbying governments to change policy in favour of Islam that has seen the introduction of stifling religous hatred laws. The law in the UK which is being debate means if you 'think' you might incite religous hatred or offence with what you say, you can be found guilty and face 7 years in prison (more than for grievous bodily harm or death by dangerous driving). So under UK law thought will be more dangerous than beating somebody up! There is an aggressive muslim lobby as there is an aggressive Christian lobby in the US. But like you say the media does skew stories against Islam, but it does skew against Christians too. Look at the coverage Moreland Baptist gets which is 75 people, mostly an extended family. And in the UK the BBC paints Christians as reactionary or pitiful, while muslims are firebrands or victims.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 9:23 a.m. CST

    People who claim bias are ignorant

    by Mooly

    It is easier for people to shout out "bias" whenever they hear something they don't like. However, this "Jesus Camp" was allowed to see the finished product and they APPROVED it. Meaning the people in charge of his camp saw this movie as a way to promote their cause and essenially brag about what they are doing. THAT is the scariest part of this whole documentary.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 9:25 a.m. CST

    DarthCheesy-poof

    by Almost_Human

    Darth, you do realize that statistically speaking, that Chirsitianity is NOT the religion of the most of the world? In fact, the practictioners of the two major religions combined, Christianity and Islam (both of which have strong End of the World elements to them and forced conversion or prostelization) are only about 50% of the world's population. So not EVERYONE was fed that fairytale you speak of. However, you are right on that teaching kids that the End Is Nigh and You Are God's Favorites (Screw the rest) is a HUGE problem. It's the very picture of (1) a deathwish, (2) perpetuation of a violence and (3) irrationality that (4) leads to self-fullfilling prophecy. Is this to say that no other religion believes in an end to the world? No, not at all. Buddhists believe everything is impermentant and I mean everything (including heaven and hell). The Maya believed that the end would come at the end of the cycles depicted in thier calendar (coming up in 2014 btw). The list goes on and on, but Christianity and Islam don't have the End as thier propritary concepts. However, the way that both Christianity and Islam both go for blind belief and indoctrination concerning thier beliefs that creates a problem. Both bad ideas. Let's talk about indoctrination a bit. As I have asserted earlier, any belief system---whether you call your god Jesus, Yahweh, bodi-dharma, Capt. Crunch, No God, Nyarlothep, Ra, whatever ---that does not revolve around love, compassion and tolerance is just bad . . .period. And here is where I think BOTH Christianity and Islam fail is that they are both prostletizing religions, i.e. they see thier mission as dictated by God to bring as many into thier fold as possible. Both have historically resorted to force. While this may not seem problimatic at first, consider you are dealing with beliefs, things that by definition cannot be proven, not facts, checkable by imperical evidence. Facts have to rational. Beliefs don't. It's much harder to commit an atrocity when you are backed by rationality. And by even considering prostlization/conversion both Christians and Muslims have abandoned the very notion of tolerance. The 11th Commandment should have been Keep Your Religion To Yourself Unless Asked. Islam's assertion that spreading religon by the sword is fine is simply wrong (and barbaric) as is thier extreme intolerance to ANY conflciting idea (see the Dutch cartoon issue). Both sides eventually resort to violence because they think thier beleif is THE ONLY TRUE ONE. That is the very picture of arrogance and stupidity, plain and simple. It's the dividing line between tolerance and totalitarianism. I think my earlier posts illustrate that anyone who says that "know the true mind of god" is a liar or delussional because perfect knowledge of a god's mind is by definition not humanly possible. Did you know that almost every other relgion practiced DOES NOT endorse prostletizing and conversion? Buddhists will talk to about Buddhism if you ask but if you don't bring it up they'll leave you alone and they'll NEVER INSIST that you believe as they do. Hindu's have public outreach centers but they are technically speaking, non-denominational and they will help anyone who comes in the door to study towards enlightenment but they don't think you need to be forced to thier beliefs for any reason. Yep, we should teach children FACTS and then let them come to thier OWN BELIEFS. Why? Facts are a better rational ground to stand on for one. Teach a kid to think critically and he/she is much harder to baffle with bullshit. Bullshit is what prostletizing is . . . you confront and argue with someone until they either agree on thier own or give in, it's based on beliefs that cannot be proven and it's fostered by fear and insecurity at the idea of others diffferent from you. You want to make the world a better place? Don't teach kids about relgion as you, an adult, see it, but rather teach them concepts (ideas) that promote good behavior such as the aforementioned love, compassion and tolerance. Why? Because ideas, even wrong ones, are usually rationale and those who differ have a framework within which to discuss those differences and hopefully reach peaceful resolution even if they agree to disagree. Beliefs are at thier core are irrational and cannot be discussed in any meaningful way if you adhere to a ridgid midset (which both Christians and Muslims usually do). By playing to emotion and irrational/non-provable beliefs, both religions do a great diservice to thier followers. However, the idea that all religious practices are bad is simply narrow minded. Atheism, although I personally find it an empty philosophy, is a vaild view, but if you insist that all people be athiest, then you are just as bad as Preacher Becky or a teacher at a Madrassa. Not all people have the ... fortitude?... to consider as stark an idea as atheism. If they use a belief to make them happier, as long as that belief does not interfere with your life in a substantive manner (just not agreeing is not enough), why should you care? It's not like you can prove god doesn't exist any more than they can prove he does. In short, lol, I think you're in the right neighborhood, but I encourage you to "drive around" and scope out the problem of what we teach kids a bit further.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 9:30 a.m. CST

    Childe Roland

    by Almost_Human

    Get 'em, tiger! lol Good show.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:13 a.m. CST

    !Ay Caramba!

    by dagls

    How come folks on this site can't just review a film? Why do we always have to get their politics thrown in. Now I'm going to have to see the movie just to get an unbiased opinion of the actual flick....

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:26 a.m. CST

    almost human

    by Some Dude

    The point is not final proof. If you don't have evidence, then the safest thing to say that something does not exist. As soon as something remotely indicating the existence of a god where to be discovered, I would consider the evidence and adjust my views accordingly. Your set theory nonsense is crap because it is merely wordplay and sophistry that I rate far lower on the level of importance than actual evidence (I've had an intelligent, but deluded friend bring up these "arguments" in the past - didn't work then, either). I lump you in with the magic believers, as much as it may offend you, because you don't understand what evidence is and why it is central to a rational adult "believing" in something like "transendance," whatever that is. And no my world is no more dismal than yours, where you cling to possibility of fantasy-land existing than merely accepting reality and moving along. As for me being as vile as the taliban or jesus camp clowns... oh, dear. I am sorry that I value the teaching of science to children rather than unverified nonsense that scares the crap out of them and makes them susceptible to being taken advantage of by charlatans, quacks and perverts. My "vile" worldview would have the not-so-vile effect of eliminating through education taliban and jesus camp retards. Which is the lesser of two "viles"?

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:26 a.m. CST

    One important point...

    by Pawprint

    A Fundamentalist is totally different to an Extremist, and it's important to differentiate between the two. A Fundamentalist is someone who doesn't 'interpret' the word of their holy book/religion but follows the teachings rigidly to the letter; an extremist (group) takes it that one step further and puts their own interpretation on the teachings to fit their own goals. The people featured in this film seem to be christian extremists, not fundamentalists. Just as those people who were living happily and non-violently under Taliban rule were fundamentalists; Al-Queda are extremists.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:27 a.m. CST

    Well, you know what Jesus said about hate...

    by Billy Goat

    Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does NOT hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters – and yes, even his own life – he CANNOT be my disciple." Maybe if Pastor Becky read this, she would... um... wait a minute...

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:30 a.m. CST

    shigeru

    by Some Dude

    That's because there is no such thing as a christian or muslim child. They are children of religious parents.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:32 a.m. CST

    More Fuel for Argument...

    by socratescocktail

    "This is, quite simply, an accidental cautionary tale, and the message therein is obvious: children can be brainwashed to believe anything. JESUS CAMP proves that in spades, and as sure as rain makes you not-dry, it's an EASY process. It's very clear from the beginning as one of the main boys – aged 11 or 12 – tells Pastor Becky, the woman who runs the camp, that he "got saved" when he was five years old because he, "just wanted more out of life." At age five." It's amazing that some people are incredulous that a five year old could think that, but when someone says "I knew I was gay when I was five" that's just someone acknowledging the truth of who they are...

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:32 a.m. CST

    Mr Sleep: Hitler was a christian...

    by Some Dude

    ...despite what christians like to say on the matter. Look it up, there are plenty of quotes from the man's own mouth about his role as a christian and nazi Germany's role as a christian nation. It is possible that in the last couple years of his life Hitler abandoned religion, but he was still the product of a religious upbringing and believed in gods and magic. Here's a hint: the guys selling christianity never claim the bad guys. Of course in retrospect all villainous people were not ever "true" christians. Ha. Too bad we only know that after the fact.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:37 a.m. CST

    socratescocktail: Here is the difference...

    by Some Dude

    Gayness occurs naturally in many species as a mutation. Religion must be taught. There are plenty of gay animals, but no religious ones. Thus, a five year old claiming to have felt same-sex attraction to a member of the same sex can be believed, while the religious five year old sounds like the victim of brainwashing. That was a good argument though.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:43 a.m. CST

    Pawprint: another important point...

    by Some Dude

    ...fundamentalist or extremist, both groups are insane. It's like one guy only reads Star Trek novels, while his neighbor goes further and writes and posts ST fan-fic. Both are dorks. At some point the distinction between two or more types of deranged behavior doesn't matter.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:51 a.m. CST

    What's wrong with posting fanfic?

    by Vi

    Ain't haitn', just sayin'.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 10:58 a.m. CST

    Actually, Pawprint, you're right...

    by Childe Roland

    ...but the way Ameircans have come to understand Christian and Muslim extremists is as fundamentalists, largely because of the way the media depicts Muslims (i.e. anyone who strictly adheres to the teachings of the Koran is automatically out to destroy anyone who believes anything different) and the way Christian extremists depict themselves (i.e. "We're just doing like it says in the Bible"). I apologize for further muddying the waters in my last post. Please feel free to insert "extremist" in place of "fundamentalist" in all instances. And Mr. Sleep: No one knows the extent of Al Quaeda's structure or alliances, and that's by design. They want us to think they're huge with allies everywhere so we'll be more scared of them (hence the term "Terrorists"), but even the nations we've attacked in retaliation for /reaction to 9/11 have had alleged ties to the organization at best (Bush to Afghanistan: "Give us Bin Laden or we'll invade!" Afghanistan to Bush: "We don't have Bin Laden." Bush: "Good!"; and don't even get me started on Iraq). And the fact that Hezbollah is so large and that both it and Mujharon are complexly organized really only lends credence to my comparison of those movements to the American radical right Christian extremist movement. My point was never that one was better or worse than the other, simply that they are, indeed, comparable. SO thanks for helping on that. Cheers.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 12:25 p.m. CST

    SomeDude-About the gay thing

    by PhilConnors

    Actually, we really don't know how exactly people become gay. It is not completely biological because in identical twins, both are gay only 50% of the time (if I remember right). It seems that there are both biological and environmental factors that influence sexuality.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 12:31 p.m. CST

    SomeDude

    by Almost_Human

    You really don't get what I am saying do you? You've just proven my point about you being just as fanatical as the Jesus Campers and the Madrassas, the only difference is YOUR god is science and atheism. And for you information, absent postive proof, the best tactic is not denial but open skepticism. As to how I evalute evidence, I am both a scientist and lawyer by training so I would imagine you should back up there on that critique. I am far more qualifed to rationally evaluate evidence than most people. Also, by grouping me in with the "magic users" once again you've proven you DON'T READ. I am a philospical Buddhist, not a religious one (clearly stated earlier). Your arrognace is astounding. Being philosopical and religous are NOT the same thing. It also shows you are a sadist in your assertion that there is no god of any sort AND YOU'D DENY OTHERS THE RIGHT TO BELIEVE CONTRARY IF IT WAS YOUR CHOICE. That also makes you a hippocrit. If you must know, I agree with Godel that in any system something has to be accepted as true even though it cannot be proven. That includes the universe. Does that mean there is a God? No. But niether does mean that there isn't one. Absence of proof is not proof positive or proof negative merely what Erwin Schrodinger would a state of superpostion. The one thing you got right was that kids NEED to be taught science and it would appear, so do you. In fact, the general populace of the US has a generally pitiful understanding of science and that is as shameful as anything about Americans. They seem to devalue intelligence for UNFOUNDED belief and unethical irrational choice. I'm not anti-religion or anti-science. I am pro-logic. Your position that others should be denied comfort because it counters your "faith" in science is unethical. Feel free to call me what you like. You've invalidated any opinion you may have by furhter illustrating your fundamentally faulty logic and ego-based belief that it's your way or the highway. And jsut because you dont' understand a word or concept does not make is sophistry, it just shows your ignorance. Narrow minded? You are the very defintion. The flip-side of the Pastor Becky coin. If it doesn't fit in your toy box, it's not real. Boo hoo. Come better prepared if you want to challenge me, sport. I can defeat your arguments all day . . . although as they decend further into ego and irrationality, I'll pay less and less attention.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 12:52 p.m. CST

    Pawprint & Childe Roland

    by Almost_Human

    Good points. Pawprint, good job on refining the defintion of fundametalism vs. extremism, however, would you consider that the literal traslations of parables can lead to misunderstanding and through propagation of error eventually give rise to extremism? If so, the extremists would be non-existent or or a much smaller group absent the fundamentalists. If not, I'd like to hear what you have to say. Thanks.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 1:01 p.m. CST

    Ole Gravy Leg

    by Almost_Human

    lol, you may have a point there . . . or I could just be really bored. Or I could just be a bored dork. I'm stuck at home with the contractors and lots of vacation time. Either way, it's all in good fun. I argue for sport. The dumber my opponent gets, the funnier (or sadder) I think its. I realize some ppl are probably taking this shit WAAAAAY to seriously so thanks for the reminder that this is all just a lark. Great screen name btw, where'd that come from?

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 1:10 p.m. CST

    As a Christian and a conservative...

    by Durendal

    ...I have to say that these people make me sick. Sure, teach your kids about the Bible if that's what you follow, or the Torah, or the Quran, etc, but don't pull this kind of iron-fisted indoctrination bullshit. Teach them the knowledge at the appropriate ages (lessons on adultery, fornication, etc can wait until they're old enough to have a grasp of it), but let them discuss it as they wish and decide on their own. This kind of crap is outright scary. Worshipping a cardboard cutout of Bush? What the HELL? Idol worship or no, what they hell do they know about him other than he CLAIMS to be a born-again Christian? They just accept that at face value and ravenously defend whatever he does. Idiots. And someone should tell them that Harry Potter is FICTION. It's harmless fiction, it's simple entertainment, it's something for kids to enjoy and imagine. It's not a how-to guide on witchcraft. Ugh. I agree with the above TB'er when he said that if Jesus came back today, these nuts would feel so threatened by him that they'd crucify him all over again. As a Christian myself, I wish these people would actually take the time to read the New Testament and figure out that Jesus's message was about loving thy neighbor regardless of who he/she is. The Jews and the Samaritans hated each other's guts with a fiery passion back in those days, but Jesus told the parable of the Good Samaritan to humble the Jews and let them know that you are supposed to love your neighbor, period. These guys don't follow the Bible. They follow the parts that fit their narrow agenda and omit the rest. I really hope this kind of thing is on the way out...

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 1:47 p.m. CST

    Durendal RE: Bush

    by Almost_Human

    I you look into it, he's personally said a few things that might change your mind about him being fundamentalist. Although he attends no chirch in the DC area, he is on record saying many things that lead me to believe that he is not faking it. That is even scarier, that he may believe he is some kind of Biblcal player in an Apocolypse play. In any case, the documentation is piling up to show his descision making process is not only irrational, but not even reality-based. That is the behavior of an extremist regardless of religious affliation. Aides have even told reporters that ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.'' (as reported by R. Suskind). He is clearly a madman to even employ people like that in the White House. Just wait until he tries to rig the next election via Diebold or tries to suspend the the 22nd Ammendment under the guise of national security/national crisis. It is not a certainty, but he's not above it. When it comes to poor ego-based decision making, so far, George has proven hiimself indeed the King.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 2:11 p.m. CST

    Holy crap, Almost_Human!

    by Childe Roland

    Is that empire quote accurate? I hadn't heard that. Was the fucking march playing in the background as Cheney finished grafting the black plate armor onto Bush and cackled from deep wihtin his shadowy cowl? How long before they just dissolve the senate? I know, I know...Star Wars was just a movie. But Lucas didn't make that shit up out of whole cloth. History is replete with illustrations of the inherent corruptions, shortcomings and ultimate failures of the imperial model. You know, the more this discussion goes on, the more appropriate that Hitler comparison seems.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 2:10 p.m. CST

    Almost_Human

    by Durendal

    Never said I thought he was a fundie. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't, but I wont believe it simply because he says so and pays a little bit of lip service. A healthy dose of skepticism is generally healthy when dealing with politicians. The scary thing is that some fervently do believe it.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 2:31 p.m. CST

    Childe Roland

    by Almost_Human

    Yep.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 2:32 p.m. CST

    Durendal

    by Almost_Human

    True, you didn't say he was a fundie. I did.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 2:56 p.m. CST

    Almost_Human

    by Angel Blake

    you said earlier that "real Christianity" is closest to the orthodox churches that split from the Roman Catholic church because theologians have acknowledged as much. Call me pedantic but if you're taking a historic stance, why don't you go back a few hundred years and say that real Christianity was set up during 100AD, firstly by Jesus, then by Peter, Paul et al? Frankly, i like the definition of what a puritan is, someone who searches the scripture for the notion of salvation. You don't need some scholar to tell you what "real" Christianity is, you can work it out for yourself.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 3:23 p.m. CST

    you know, its just time to abandon the label

    by VoodooV

    I know that this movie portrays extremists on the far right and I also know that the vast majority of people who call themselves christians are actually much closer to center and more moderate than these nutcases. But you HAVE to acknowledge that these idiots give christianity a bad name. So doesn't it just make you realize that maybe you have to stop calling yourself christians? no matter how many different ways of 'worshipping' you can come up with...everyone still calls it christianity. So much that in my opinion, Christianity has lost all meaning. I mean c'mon, if even local churches have differening views on how to worship...I just fail to see how you can lump it all into one catch-all term of Christianity? So why don't you just abandon the label Christians...isn't enough to just say you believe in God? To paraphrase a popular science fiction show..maybe God doesn't care how you pray...or what you call him...he just cares that you DO pray? If you ask me, a simple thing like that which could start bringing religion back from the brink of mysticism and fanaticism and start being more rational, individual, and spiritual, which if you ask me is far more important....and also much more tolerant. cuz if there are infinite flavors of Christianity, and we know that there are extremist Muslims and moderate Muslims...WTF is the difference in Christianity and Islam from that viewpoint. I'm agnostic, but if I were to believe in a god, I'd believe in the GOD..not the religion that claims to follow it...spirituality is individual, not mob mentality.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 3:27 p.m. CST

    Angel Blake

    by Almost_Human

    You are not being pedantic, in fact, the teaching of Christ DIRECTLY would be the preferred way to hear his message. However, barring that, you are right in your assessment of closeness of doctrine. However, I chose a slightly later time for one reason: the early Christians were very disorganized and living underground (in some cases literally underground). Writings being used were different from city to city. I was try to allow for time for the gospels to accrete to where at least most of the books included in the modren Bible were written. And that is a very narrow defintion of Puritan. True, by your definition, that is not a problem. However, the Puritans were also retrograd zealots thrown out of almost every country in Europe for being shit disturbers. They were the extremists of thier day and thier "our way or the highway" mentality has been a long suffering wound in the American moral/ethical psyche and in the case of the Dutch, part of what got them shown the door. No one needs scholars to tell them WHAT to think, but they are a valuable resource for alternate ideas. Read everything you can. Talk to others. Make up your own mind, but do so with evidence and logic as guides. That's what I did. If scholarship has value in any field it's not in teaching WHAT to think, but rather HOW to think with minimal error. You may have mistaken that reference to scholars as an appeal to authority when it was really just by way of example. Upon re-reading it, I can see where you might get that.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 3:28 p.m. CST

    please,

    by VoodooV

    the reason they haven't attacked us is because they ARE terrorists. Terrorists deal in sneak attacks..hitting you where you think you are comfortable. If they started attacking regularly, they know we become a conventional army at that point and they would simply lose. they know they can't beat us in a straight up fight. hence the terrorism. Ironically, its the same reason we were so effective in defeating the British in the Revolutionary war. we were called terrorists back then too remember?

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 3:47 p.m. CST

    Here are some bad Christians

    by Almost_Human

    "POSO, Indonesia (AP) -- Indonesia said the execution of three Roman Catholic militants for bloody attacks on Muslims six years ago was a matter of justice not religion, as thousands of mourners packed churches in Christian-majority parts of the country Sunday to pray for the men." (dated Sept 24, 2006) 70 people died and they inflammed the situation to near revoloution. Too far from home? Try Eric Rudolph. Unless you think bombing and killing docotors is ok. How about that old standard of American culture, the KKK. They were a Christian organization. Lynch any niggers lately? How about being informed and getting some perspective? Bad news people, just because you are a Christian does not mean all Christians are good. And non-violent or not, interfering with another person's health is wrong. It interferes with thier free will. A person's body is thiers and they can do what they like to it. Kill it, maim it, tattoo it, pierce it, whatever. You don't like, tough. Unless you want to chain everyone to a wall, you can't stop them. The argument that differnitated cells are humans and need protection is simply logic retarded by belief and bad science. There is not enough neural complexity to form a mind in the first trimester Don't like it? Maybe you should join the Bush cabinet and "create some new reality". Try to stop me from seeing a doctor for something that is my business and see how quick it'll end.....badly....for you. Once again, you are advocating FORCING your view on someone else. Non-violent force is still force. Zealots never see this fact.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 3:56 p.m. CST

    Very interesting discussion.

    by DocPazuzu

    While I do understand the distinction some folks here have made between fundamentalists and extremists, I think that the differences are quite fluid and can’t really be applied in order to differentiate between the two in any meaningful or satisfactory manner. There are plenty of fundamentalists who also are violent, as well as numerous extremists who aren’t. Instead of focusing on their differences, perhaps one should point out the very obvious thing they have in common, namely an utter contempt for science and empirical evidence (no matter how compelling) and an unquestioning belief in dogma (no matter how preposterous)? There’s an example I’ve brought up on previous occasions in talkback when it comes to illustrating how fundamentalists think (term used very lightly). A few years ago, when I worked at a public library in Ohio, I had a colleague who was a fundamentalist Christian. She and I would get into numerous heated discussions dealing with just about everything in (and including) the Universe. One particular discussion started when she claimed that dinosaurs coexisted with humans right up to the Flood. After she dismissed the notion of being able to date fossils with any degree of accuracy, I asked her how old the Earth was. Basing her belief on a generational roll-call in the Bible, she claimed it could be no older than 10,000 years – adding with a scoff: “but my minister believes it’s only 6,000 years old, which I think is a bit extreme.” With that staggering nugget of insight out of the way, I proceeded to ask her how old she believed the Universe to be. “Oh, the same – about 10,000 years old.” That’s when I knew I had her – or so I thought. Quothe I: “Well, do you believe in the speed of light?” After a bit of explaining as to what I meant (that the speed of light could be measured by scientific methods), she agreed that she did. I then asked her if she believed that light traveling from the Sun takes more than eight minutes to reach the Earth. She did. And light coming from Alpha Centauri taking 4.3 years to reach us? Definitely. “So how do you explain objects in space – like the Andromeda Galaxy – being a couple of million light YEARS away if the Universe is only 10,000 years old?” I asked, rather smugly and triumphantly. She said she didn’t have an answer to that and would “read up on it.” A couple of days later she explained to me that God had created the Universe with “mid-flight light”, that is, God didn’t allow the objects in space to naturally radiate light to various surrounding locales, but “made” the light reach all destinations simultaneously in order to test our faith. Naturally I was speechless. It was genius; no need for any scientific explanation, and a perfect excuse to dismiss any kind of science or rational explanation from anyone else. Did I mention that this woman works in a public library? My point with this story is that it’s not an “either or” situation. Fundamentalism and extremism are detrimental to our development as a species, and we shouldn’t ignore the homegrown variety just because it’s not fully as violently extreme as some of the Islamist variants around the world. So far we don’t have to fight the Christian fundies/extremists with guns, so why wait until that point? I think this documentary fills an enormously important function and we ignore its message at our own peril.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 3:58 p.m. CST

    What do you know, indeed, anchorite?

    by Childe Roland

    I cited only my first-hand experience with the militant radical Christian right. Didn't feel the need to run a laundry list of abortion clinic bombings, shootings, beatings (which at least one of those human chains I covered erupted into...how exactly is that non-violent?) or gay bashings that any tool using monkey with a keyboard and knowledge of search engines can find with frightening ease. Don't insult anyone's intelligence by pretending I "failed" to cite anything and that somehow supports your position. You can credit the government agencies and the draconian measures they've enacted in the post 9-11 world for the lack of Muslim terrorist activity on U.S. soil, but it rings ridiculously hollow...especially coupled with your allegation of decades of daily violence and malice against the U.S. by Muslims (if you're counting the various folks unhappy with our presence in Iraq in that tally, you're fudging your numbers...we're the aggressors on foreign soil there...do you blame the bees for stinging the foolhardy child who goes and smashes the side of their hive with a stick?). I'm glad my posts amuse you (but I really doubt they do...you come off as quite angry). But you really ought to be careful of how you look when casually tossing about words like "ignoramus" with your ethnocentric and myopic assertions about politics, religion and human nature. Because those are three arenas in which you've consistently proven you know nothing except what you wish were true. Care to go home and get your shinebox now?

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 4 p.m. CST

    Historically Bad Chriatians

    by Almost_Human

    Torquemada, leader of the Spanish Inquisition. Pope Sixtus IV, the Pope who comissioned the SPansih Inquisition in 1478. Edgar Ray Killen, Baptist preacher and KKK member who killed 3 civil rights workers in 1964. How about Pope Pius XII, who silently acquesed to the Nazi party and thier plan for "The Final Solution". I could list some more, but you get the idea.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 4:19 p.m. CST

    DocPazuzu!

    by Almost_Human

    That is without a doubt one of the funniest and simultaneously sad stories I have ever read. Mid-flight light? rofl. I'll have to run that by the uncle at Turkey Day. You do bring a good point and I think, foretold, where a large bulk of my arguments were going. Thanks! My fingers are getting tired.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 4:22 p.m. CST

    Mid-flight Light and ideas like that . . .

    by Almost_Human

    are the reasons if aliens are here, they have us under quarantine. The sign reads, "DON'T FEED THE WATER MONKEYS ON THIS PLANET -- LOGIC HAZARD"

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 4:28 p.m. CST

    Did I mention . . .

    by Almost_Human

    that Joseph Mengele was a Christian?

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:09 p.m. CST

    Almost Human: You broke your promise and my heart.

    by Some Dude

    I thought you were done acknowledging me. According to you I have trouble reading, but according to me you are a liar.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:12 p.m. CST

    I don't normally do this, but...

    by Manatee

    Some recommended reading; "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason" by Sam Harris. In it, Harris basically argues that our species will destroy itself if we can't move beyond religious ideologies. I couldn't agree more.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:16 p.m. CST

    Almost Human: Does that make you a "hippocrit"?

    by Some Dude

    Anyhow, I am not saying people should not have the right to ignore evidence and be stupid, if that makes them happier. However, I do think it should be a crime to foist magical beliefs on unwitting children. You can stop acknowledging me now.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:18 p.m. CST

    Doc Pazuzu.

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    It has been too long, sir.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:33 p.m. CST

    SomeDude

    by Almost_Human

    I changed my mind, the right of all people with free will. I now find your brand of stupidity entertaining.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:37 p.m. CST

    SomeDude

    by Almost_Human

    In fact, I've decided to keep pissing you off just for fun. Why? Because you have the logic skills of a doorknob. I think I'll refute everything you say from now on, even if by some wildass chance you might be right about something. Liar? I think not. As to what you think of me, I could give a shit. But I am going to poke you in the eye every chance I get from now on. Why? Because I can. The day you best me in an argument is the day I don't come to AICN anymore. There's your challenge. Take if you dare.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:40 p.m. CST

    Ditto what MNG typed, Doc.

    by Childe Roland

    I was so wrapped up in chiding anchorite for his usual horse shittery that I missed your delightful tale of mid-flight light. How is that notion any wackier than Xenu and Thetans? I think willful ignorance may be the only thing in all creation that simultaneously frightens, amuses, saddens and frustrates me. Sho'nuff...it's powerful stuff.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:39 p.m. CST

    Almost Human

    by Some Dude

    "The less a man speaks in declaratives, the less apt he is to look foolish in retrospect." Or to look like a liar. It took one measly post for me to get you to go back on your word and acknowledge me. I own your foolish, lying ass. Good day!

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:40 p.m. CST

    SomeDude

    by Almost_Human

    Come on! Get madder!

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:42 p.m. CST

    SomeDude, you own exactly. ...

    by Almost_Human

    an overinflated sense of self-worth.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:48 p.m. CST

    Roland: Mid-flight light isn't wackier than Xenu...

    by Some Dude

    ...that's why I am endlessly amused by the hypocrisy (or as Almost Human spells it "hippocrisy") of Christians, Jews and other magical thinkers who revel in laughing at "wacky" Scientology. Presumably, among magic thinkers, the age of one's magic book is inversely proportionate to how funny it is.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:51 p.m. CST

    I am pretty sure no one grades . .. .

    by Almost_Human

    for spelling and grammar at AICN. You at least understood the concept. Unlike your poorly formed or missing concepts concerning transcendence, fascism, history and logic.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:52 p.m. CST

    Roland: correction

    by Some Dude

    "Mid-flight light isn't any less wacky than Xenu..." Sorry, I got distracted and reversed the two. Someone keeps farting.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:55 p.m. CST

    Fart jokes are . . .

    by Almost_Human

    funny. Care to take an informal pole about who has presented a better case here?

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:56 p.m. CST

    Almost: I prefer not to take poles...

    by Some Dude

    ..but feel free to do as you like!

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 5:57 p.m. CST

    poll that is

    by Almost_Human

    unless you like poles

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:01 p.m. CST

    Farting.

    by Childe Roland

    Actually that's just anchorite's argument you hear and smell, Dude. Nine out of ten people can't tell the difference, though, so don't feel bad.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:04 p.m. CST

    BringingBackSexy

    by Almost_Human

    It's pretty simple. I stand for free will, logic, love, compassion and tolerance. SomeDude wants to insist that all religions need to be eliminated. He refuses to see the equivalent zeal to the fundamentalist extremists and his ridgid faulty logic.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:07 p.m. CST

    Bringing Sexy Back

    by Childe Roland

    Mel Brooks just called and he wants that "Oy-fucking-vey!" line for History of the World Part II. His people will call your people.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:10 p.m. CST

    BSB

    by Almost_Human

    Is Anchorite a . . .trollbot? lol

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:14 p.m. CST

    It is less debate and

    by Almost_Human

    more like he's Andy Dick. You can call me Stone Cold.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:22 p.m. CST

    save me

    by reckni

    to quote Slayer, "religion's a whore"

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:29 p.m. CST

    One of the most frustrating conservative arguments

    by Novaman5000

    is the one that we haven't been attacked since then because Bush and Company have done such a great job fighting terror. Please, as if terrorist attacks were happening on a daily basis and then just suddenly stopped. And what about that new book that's causing such a fuss in DC? The one that suggests Bush and Co. had information on Al Qaeda months before Sept 11th and ignored it? Hell Condy Rice hasn't even denied it. She just said she "can't recall" the meeting. CAN'T RECALL!?! Anchorite, spare us your bullshit suggestions that this president has done anything but fuck up since day 1.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:30 p.m. CST

    BTW, the book is State of Denial by Bob Woodward.

    by Novaman5000

    Haven't read it yet, but it's being touted as accurate by many, including Colin Powell, who finally admitted he was fired (as the book claims) just recently.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:37 p.m. CST

    Sorry for the tangent.

    by Novaman5000

    Back to the topic at hand: What is scary about these fundies is that, despite being a minority, they have alot of power in our society. They can affect a show being aired, political races (election 2004 anyone?), who gets fined by the FCC, laws that are passed, and box office sales on films (ever heard of the Dove foundation? Studios are bending over backwards to get good reviews from them)! The fact, then, that this influential group harbors such bigotry and disregard for anyone who may have different values than them, makes them something to be concerned about. I realize it's all tough to be like "these fucking crazies don't scare me, if they scare you, you're a bitch", but you know what? Maybe they should scare you a little. If you're part of a group they don't like, they can make your life miserable.

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 6:51 p.m. CST

    History of the World Pt. II

    by Almost_Human

    We should be so lucky. Mel Brooks was (and still may be) funnier than anyone directing comedy today. And his small part in Blazing Saddles as the GOV is absurdly sublime. "I didn't get a HARRUUMPH outta that guy!"

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 11:29 p.m. CST

    Holy Crap!

    by dagls

    i just finished reading all of the talkbacks up to this point. these things take on a life of their own, don't they? i don't even remember what the movie was anymore....

  • Oct. 4, 2006, 11:47 p.m. CST

    WHY...

    by thebearovingian

    must I be so fly? And why did TomBodet let loose in the German tongue? Geben zie der einen gürtel!

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 7:56 a.m. CST

    Pearl of Wisdom

    by Almost_Human

    Anchorite is Jewish? Oh surely thou dost pull mine leg.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 8:42 a.m. CST

    Thanks, MNG & Childe

    by DocPazuzu

    I don't know about TOO long, but it certainly has been a while I've been away.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 8:48 a.m. CST

    I'm not sure if anchorite has outright claimed...

    by Childe Roland

    ...Judaism as his religion, and I honestly don't care (other than I would feel worse for the Jews because they've got him on their side). If he is Jewish, he's a strong example of why religion and politics shouldn't mix, as he certainly believes that it is the United States' continuing mission to ensure the uncontested survival of Jews in the Middle East by eradicating the Muslim world (because that's the only way Israel can be safe, apparently). Get him going on the subject sometime. It's like a clown car wreck, wathching him try to justify one people's right to exist over another's -- tragic and messy but ultimately quite funny. However, it really doesn't matter to me what he believes any more than it matters to me who someone fucks or what someone's diet is. I just don't like to see bullshit go unchecked on the Internets. Because, even if we all recognize it as bullshit, there are kids out there who log onto these sites and read this shit and think that, because someone posted it and someone else left it up there for the world to see, it must be true. I know I'll never change his mind or get him to consider the validity of anyone else's viewpoint, but I'll call him on the bullshit every time I see it.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 8:47 a.m. CST

    Almost Human

    by DocPazuzu

    Lest you think BringingSexyBack is a sensible, righteous dude judging by his anchorite-slamming, I feel an obligation to tell you that he was recently banned (as "brokebackcowboy") for launching into about a dozen or so rabidly anti-semitic tirades in talkback. With that in mind, Brokedick's indignation rings exceedingly hollow.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 8:58 a.m. CST

    DocPazuzu

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    No problemo, it's good to see you back on the boards. Things here at AICN have been...interesting.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 9:02 a.m. CST

    Speaking of blogs, BringingSexyBack...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Whatever happened to the "Brokebackcowboy" blog? I think Harry may have actually checked that out which, in turn, prompted the banning of ol' brokeback. Wait, am I somehow being redundant by addressing this with you?

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 9 a.m. CST

    And...

    by DocPazuzu

    ...he's a liar too.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 9:13 a.m. CST

    MNG and DocPazuzu

    by Almost_Human

    Thanks for the word of caution. I do recall some of the brokebackcowboy debacle, but did not realize that BSB and BBC were the same person. However, it still doesn't change the fact that it is a sad day for Jews everywhere that Anchorite would choose to affiliate with thier group(s).

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 9:20 a.m. CST

    RE: Lost Prophet

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    No. He may have flamed out when the site was going through its testing phase. *** As for the blog, you know better than to ask me that question...

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 10:08 a.m. CST

    "this alter ego thing is getting tiresome."

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Really? I find it hilarious. But here is that link for you - http://brokebackcowboy.blogspot.com/ *** You'll notice the the Harry is a Zionist-Nazi post and screen captures have been conveniently removed.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 10:58 a.m. CST

    BringingSexyBack

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Yeah, good grasp of the obvious. But I don't feel it necessary to elaborate, I think your posts are speaking for themselves. You do have an M.O. and its sticking out like a sore virtual thumb. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt, you know.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 11:35 a.m. CST

    "my perceptive powers need tuning."

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    You're right about that. I am a VASTLY intelligent TalkBacker. *** A lot of people write "teh" or even "pwned". But not everyone mentions Fox News, George Bush, Jews, WTC, Lost Prophet, zfisk/homewrecker (!), or takes cheapshots at anchorite and DocPazuzu. That takes a certain individual with a distinct panache/legacy to reference all that in one TB thread. And let's not forget the fact that your handle showed up on AICN almost immediately following the ban of "brokebackcowboy". And, like I've stated, the (your) blog was immediately cleansed of its posts regarding Harry and the "Zionist" image contained within the animated gif in the top-lefthand corner of this page. So, yeah. I do tend to figure out certain folks' M.O. It's not about being clever. Sometimes, it's just painfully obvious.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 11:35 a.m. CST

    BringingBrokedickBack

    by DocPazuzu

    Dude, don't front. As if your politics and fixating on certain talkbackers weren't clues enough, there's also the sexual fixation on talkbackers' moms and sisters. And I challenge you to find one other talkbacker during the past ten years who's referred to Jesus as "Yeshua" -- other than you "and" brokedick. Man up.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 12:19 p.m. CST

    "what thread might that be?"

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    This thread, BringingBrokeBack.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 12:28 p.m. CST

    Is there such a thing...

    by Childe Roland

    ...as a cheap shot at anchorite? That's really the only question I've got. I don't really recall brokebackcowboy or his M.O. (was he that infamous? did that happen very suddenly? I kind of thought I had most of the usuall suspects on my radar) but, if BSB is really a reincarnation, I say just come clean. Jesus would forgive you if you were honest about your mistakes and my understanding is that, if one does as god does often enough, one becomes as god is. How cool would that be if we all forgave a penitent talkbacker and suddenly got cool Jesus powers? I'd so rock the Halloween party this year making ice out of thin air, multiplying nachos and turning six packs into cases. Years from now, people could read the drunken and hungover recountings of my miraculous deeds and start worshipping me or blaming me for all the horrible shit they decide do to one another. That would be somewhat ironic.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 12:43 p.m. CST

    Childe

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I certainly don't mean to sound like I'm speaking for anchorite. But I do know that brokebackcowboy had a hard-on for "engaging" anchorite in TB. I'm not sure how he slipped under your rador but if you were to go back to some of the more recent WTC TBs or anything remotely involving Israel et al, you will see how those discussions were steered. *** My only point about all this is to get him to come clean. Nothing more. At least for now.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 12:53 p.m. CST

    BringingSexyBack

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    "MNG seems to have a few perpetual enemies". - Hmmm, not that I'm aware of. Although I will admit that zfisk/homewrecker, Ringb(w)earer (god bless him), and Jar Jar 4 Prick are on my "List". But nothing specific happened between me and Jar Jar. He's just someone who can't take his own weak medicine. * Childe: sorry, I do realize radar is spelled with an "a".

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 1:02 p.m. CST

    BringingSexyBack

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Defending anchorite? Hardly. Anchorite is a big boy; he can speak for himself. Besides, he knows full well that I will be taking him to task in the BSG TBs...

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 1 p.m. CST

    "Yeshua is the proper name for Jesus"

    by DocPazuzu

    As far as I can see, nobody is disputing that notion, brokedickback. However, the fact that you put it in those terms makes this an even more clear-cut case since that's exactly -- word for word -- how you phrased it in your earlier incarnation at one point. You're either too much of a bitch to confess or merely lying to distance yourself from the earlier tactics ("I want to fuck your Jewish sister in the ass") which landed you in so much hot water. Oh, and the roundabout ways in which you refer to earlier talkbacks and talkbackers is cowardly and embarrassing to say the least.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 1:23 p.m. CST

    Gosh, MNG, it's hard to imagine anyone...

    by Childe Roland

    ...actually "wanting" to engage anchorite in any sort of discussion, much less having some sort of sexual desire to do so. But now that you mention the WTC talkbacks, specifically, I do seem to recall someone making those kinds of posts. This is a toughie, because if BSB is one of the banned on the run, as it were, I'd hope he'd be able to turn that sense of humor of his on himself and laugh about it publicly now. But, if he's not, I'd hate to see usually reasonable guys like you and Doc P. caught up in some paranoid reverse MPD web like the one that dragged homewrecker down into insanity and talkback infamy. Doc makes a strong case, though. Can't say as I've read more than one reference to Yeshua in the last 15 years.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 1:28 p.m. CST

    DocPazuzu: May I be so bold as to ask what the hell

    by Mr Brownstone

    you're talking about? I thought this was about Jesus Camp and next thing I know you're talking about fucking Jewish sisters' asses, or something to that effect.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 1:38 p.m. CST

    Childe and DocPaz

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Speaking of Yeshua, here is a link to the TB that may serve as the basis for this discussion: http://tinyurl.com/jfj46 *** This is where the banishment occured. And, funny enough, where I also picked up on the Yeshua reference...

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 1:46 p.m. CST

    And Childe...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...please don't let me travel the path of zfisk/homewrecker.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 2:39 p.m. CST

    I'm there for you, MNG.

    by Childe Roland

    It's like I've told a select few folks I actually trust: "If I ever turn into that guy...you know...THAT guy? Do me, you and the rest of the world a favor and put a bullet in my head." I must admit to being surprised at how quickly and downright enthusiastically some of them agreed to do just that. ;)

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 3:08 p.m. CST

    Thanks Childe.

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Ha! Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I've actually had the same conversation: "Hey man, if I ever wear a pair of shorts like that guy is wearing, shoot me immediately." "No problem, you got it!". Let's just hope we don't have that conversation. Cheers. :)

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 3:10 p.m. CST

    Mr. Brownstone

    by DocPazuzu

    I can see how that seemed a bit odd. What I was doing was quoting BringingBrokedickBack's usual form of debating "skills" in earlier talkbacks. He would hint at every talkbacker opposing him being a Jew, and talk about how much he would like to sodomize their mothers/sisters/daughters. Sorry for the confusion.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 3:14 p.m. CST

    MNG & Childe

    by DocPazuzu

    Don't worry, I'd never go down that route. BringingBrokedickBack is so obvious, though, that I felt I could afford a poke or two in his general fake-ass direction without seeming nutzoid.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 3:37 p.m. CST

    Doc Pazuzu: I got it now ... I think.

    by Mr Brownstone

    I hope you don't think I'm the same guy too, since my name also starts with "Bro". Now can we get back on the topic of Yeshua? :)

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 3:46 p.m. CST

    Mr. Brownstone

    by DocPazuzu

    Yesh, we can.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 3:48 p.m. CST

    Oh, and Mr. Brownstone...

    by DocPazuzu

    ...did you ever get The Pit on DVD? I seem to recall discussing that horror schlock classic with you eons ago. Still haven't added it to my own collection yet...

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 4:02 p.m. CST

    Boy, it just gets clearer with every subsequent post.

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    I think BringingBrokeBack is suffering from Post Bannishment Guilt Disorder. Come on, dude. Admit it. Put down that bag of bricks. Take that first step into a larger world.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 4:32 p.m. CST

    You know, when I think about how hard it is...

    by Childe Roland

    ...to get banned from this site, I have to wonder what kind of people decide to make that a hobby. I mean, it recalls the old Dennis Millerism about Slash: "How the hell do you get kicked out of Guns n' Roses?" except there isn't the association of "bad boy cool" with it. I've been to other sites and aicn is pretty "wild west" in terms of moderation and restrictions on free expression. From what I've seen, there's very little that could come up, even in the most heated of debates, that would actually move someone to ban you. So how much of a persistent prick do you really have to be to not only get noticed above the din but to irritate one of the admins enough for them not to want to keep you around as a talback whipping boy and potential source of amusement? Do people actually take pride in something like that?

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 5 p.m. CST

    Did someone say The Pit?

    by Mechasheeva

    That was indeed filmed in my hometown, yes it was.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 5:34 p.m. CST

    Childe - The Art of Getting Banned

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Apparently, what you need to do to get banned on AICN is: A) Consistently tell everyone what Moriarty REALLY meant to say in one of his movie reviews. B) Resort to hate-speech such as "filthy Jews" (ala zfisk/homewrecker) C) Repeatedly call everyone on the boards a Zionist-Nazi, create a blog that speculates that AICN is a Zionist website, post a screen capture of Harry's animated gif (stating that it contains a hidden Zionist symbol) on the blog, and then INVITE Harry to check the blog out in TB! *** Now, AICN's TBs may be a little "wild west" in nature. But every once in awhile, Harry & Co. are quick on the draw.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 5:37 p.m. CST

    Add Don Murphy...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    ...to the number of brokebackcowboy topics covered in this TB.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:04 p.m. CST

    We all know about Don Murphy...

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    But he is just another in a series of TB related subjects once frequented by brokebackcowboy. FLAMES ON OPTIMUS much, BringingSexyBack?

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:25 p.m. CST

    Free Speech, Yehaw!

    by Almost_Human

    Ya know, MGN, CR & BSB, I was wondering that myself. It seems like Harry is a very relaxed Marshall an hizza Dep You Tees in this little patch of free speech. Ah yuh, <spit...clang> you gotta be a pretty foul bastard to earn his wrath. But you ya know the air smells good here except to the occasional offgassing from the anchorite mines .. .

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:28 p.m. CST

    Pardon me . . .

    by Almost_Human

    I've been reading Wolves of the Calla all day, thankee-sai, and I have old west on the brain.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:35 p.m. CST

    Almost_Human

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    The Old West and "Wolves of the Calla"? Any good? Somehow, I found myself on a western kick. I just finished Lansdale's "Dead in the West" and am now a good third of the way into McCarthy's "Blood Meridian". BRUTAL.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:46 p.m. CST

    Actually it's

    by Almost_Human

    part of Stephen King's Dark Tower series. If Lansdale and McCarthy are your regular fare, it might not suit your tastes. However, given your monicker and obvious love? for the best written show on television, it's probably a good choice. It is the most "Old West" of the series since The Gunslinger. As you may or may not know, The Dark Tower covers a lot of literary/genre landscape, Western, Fantasy, SF, Horror, King plays all the instruments. Well.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:47 p.m. CST

    And McCarthy . . .

    by Almost_Human

    kicks some ass too in a very Hemmingway sort of way.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:51 p.m. CST

    Wow

    by Mr. Winston

    I hope Oliver Stone is developing a movie about Anti-Semetic Hijackers engaging in forced anal fornication with Jewish Women who are hostages on one of the government-backed Zionist planes headed for a collision course with FOXNews HQ that veered off course thanks only to the supreme power of Yeshua. Then, I don't know, maybe I could post a review and you guys would have something to talk about :) By the way, I've officially become confused about the meaning of "Zionist", especially when paired with its twin brother "Nazi".

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:54 p.m. CST

    Almost_Human

    by Mr. Nice Gaius

    Cool. Believe it or not, I've never read any Stephen King. Don't really know why. The Lansdale book was given to me by a buddy who figured I'd get a kick out it. (We both have a mutual admiration for "Bubba Ho-Tep".) I've been meaning to check out McCarthy's work for awhile now. So far, "Blood Meridian" is kicking my ass. And yes - "BSG" is one of the best written shows on TV. I rank it just a hair below "Deadwood"...which is yet another western. I'm sensing a theme here.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 6:55 p.m. CST

    Mr. Winston

    by Almost_Human

    You are a funny guy. And thanks for kicking off an entertaining discussion. LOOK! LOOK AT THE MONSTER YOU HAVE BORN UNTO THIS WORLD! lol

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 7:06 p.m. CST

    I enjoyed Deadwood but . . .

    by Almost_Human

    my one and really only objection was the gratutious and more disturbingly anachronistic use of the word fuck. While the word was in use during the period it was probably being used by a small group of London prostitutes and not the general public. I know it's a word geek hangup. Essential King (IMOHO), check out The Dark Tower series (best read in order), Salem's Lot, The Shining, The Stand (both versions), Different Seasons, Night Shift and The Dead Zone (in no particular order)

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 7:09 p.m. CST

    Well Thanks, AH

    by Mr. Winston

    And I've got to sidle up and agree with you on the DARK TOWER series - best set of books I've ever read in my life. I find that most fantasy/sci-fi stuff is too random and often refuses to set up a world with a set of rules that govern the "fantastical" things that happen within them, but this was such a good mix of just what you mentioned above that I was riveted. I actually jumped into the series with THE WASTELANDS - which I still consider the best of the lot - when I was about 12. Couldn't put the last book down. My main goal in life is to convince Stephen King to let me produce the entire collection into film. When that happens I'm going to get famously drunk and try not to run him over with my van.

  • Oct. 5, 2006, 7:18 p.m. CST

    Mr. Winston if you do that . . .

    by Almost_Human

    I'll buy the first drink. And the second. Probably several more. Maybe even hookers and firetrucks. Only on thing, may I suggest look at Michael Wheelan for some of the design elements. If anyone can blend that Western SF look together better that he, I want to see it.

  • Oct. 7, 2006, 6:05 p.m. CST

    In America...

    by Optimus Murphy

    ...people need to realize that the power of the fundamentalist Christians on the right is directly tied the power of the extreme left. The two feed off one another in a political battle of escalation.