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FANTASIA 2000
Then we have FANTASIA 2000, which will be the film that animation purest will grade
Disney on harshly. I mean for animation aficionados Fantasia is sacred territory. And sure
Walt had originally intended to make it a constant state of progression, but I keep finding
myself having trouble losing this segment and keeping that one. I almost wish it were an
entirely new Fantasia, of course that wouldn't be Walt's vision, but technically neither is
this. Oh well, I'm dying to see it. That dang whale sequence is suppose to blow me away,
so I'm gonna sit here in a constant state of slobbering till I see it.
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OOoooh, so nice and cozy.
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Really. I never saw it. Greenleaf, great idea. It's kinda sad that nothing is here. I love it. Nice and roomie. Anyways, nothing to say. Wait, thanks to whoever that was that said something about Arthur. I thought about it and wound up writing my essay to Harvard about Arthur.
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Even this TB is screwed up!
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If wonder if Harry's gonna get off his fat arse and do something about this one day or another.
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Where is everyone, is it just me and you? Gah, everyone gave up on the TBs. They myust not want to be around us anymore.
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THAT DOES IT! I WITHDRAW MY SUPPORT FROM THESE MOVIES!!! >snort!< ;)
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Morg, I couldn't find any pictures, I didnt look hard, but Icouldn't finsd any. And if the armor makes them look like reptiles, I'm with Blue, I'm gone. Chain mail would be cool, it would be realistic in a world of dragons and dungeons and talking eagles. It would be something people could identify with. PJ making a fish scale, gah, he has to make absolutely sure that no one forgets this is a fantasy: Orcs hatchiing from eggs or being genetically engineered, next thing I know it'll be set to a rock & roll soundtrack or something more futuristic than Dune's soundtrack.
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...PB was having a joke at Michael Martinez' expense, He wasn't serious about withdrawing his support, (what a blow THAT would be to PJ and Co. eh PB? heh!). *** Howdy every body! Maybe one of us should go post one more time on the other hosed TB to try to round up P's D and some-o-the other tail-enders and get em over here?
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I can not believe that we have been reduced to posting on a pathetically empty Fantasia TB. Well, it's nice to see y'all again. As for the pictures of the Rohirrim, I thought they were much to dark to be able to pick out many details (but that could just be my monitor). However, I am impressed by the armor worn by the elves. I liked the green overlapping plates on the shoulders and thighs. Perhaps it's not in the books, but I think it's a nice detail.
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...GREAT. I know JRRT describes them as wearing chain mail but this scale stuff is historically accurate, (as in it WAS manufactured in an actual historical time period tht would roughly correspond to Rohan's level of technology.), and is really just another interpretation of/another type of chain mail anyway. The plate armor is right out of course but it ain't going to make me "pull a Martinez". Don't know what to think about the Elf gear though it's, well, ODD...
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...just check out the horse tail on that helm! Woo Hoo!!
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Because there's no way I couldn't be taking part in Blue's little k=jolke, as if only 'he' can be funny. It wasnt even him that thought up the ol corn on the cob thing; it wasn't me, but it wasn't him either. So armor this and armor that, I havent seen the pics and I dont think i want to. I can assume off your descriptions and then when i see the movie i can tell you how undescriptive you are. So how's the good old Club Angband?
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..It's going to be a fantasy allright.Turn of the century midgets fighting alongside medieval Vikings and ..sigh!40 foot tall 'prehistoric' African elephants.This is the prehistory that PJ has in mind?Actually armor is very important ,it says much about the culture and history of the people.The Rohirrim's scale wouldn't be so off since the earliest kinda armor would be this type.Worn by the aboriginal tribes of Phillipine and the early Asian nomadic tribes(in the form of hooves).If there is any model of the Rohirrim,it would be now the son of Noah,Japheth.Most probably Eastern nomadic tribes that gave rise to the aggressive widespread Indo European cultures that are most associated with the whiteskinned and light haired archatype.These Indo Europeans are said to have domesticated the earliest horses.Most of their names ,like the Greeks and the Indo Aryans incorporates the word 'horse'.The Indo Aryanswere the earliest chariot users.Migrations of these brought the Celts to Britain.They were probaly the ancestors of the tall white skinned Finnaro Ugaritic people of Russia,the notorious 'Aryans' of India,the very Celt like(in terms of culture and looks)ancient Greeks. http:// members.nbci.com/_XMCM/thrace/pictures.htm This is just to show the similarity to the Horse lords.Armor plates in M-E is fine as long as there are loops in Tolkien's description,i.e. he didn't mention it.But they shouldn't be medieval in design.Are people so sure that the dwarves were the atypical red haired SAcadinavians?Beware the Angilication in LOTR.The ancient Celts and the abriginal Native Americans wore what would be described in the closest ANGILICIZED equivalent,the gorget.But the real thing for the Celts would the torc and the Native Americans this http://www.nativetech.org/clothing/regions/region8.html doom and gloom.
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Most people do think the dwarves are Nordic, I did when I first came here. But all of the people with access to the Tolkien letters informed me that the dwarves are in fact based on the ancient hebrews. And I didn't understand what you meant with the whole native american thing. Maybe I didnt read it well enough, or maybe there's a typo that messed with it, or maybe you just went right over my head, but I didnt get it. Shit I can't wait for Dune. I'm watching an episode of B5 right now, and the symbolism is too plain. Earth has a Ministry of Peace and the guy in charge is named Welles. Earth also signs a non-aggression pact with an expanding alien race, and the guy signing it says, "At last we will know peace in our time." COuld JMS be any more plain.
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Upon a unthorough reexamination, I like PJ's interpretation. And morph, why does nbci havce stuff on ancient greece? The Numenorians/Gondorians are Egyptian in their building style. The damn statues are HUGE! The towers of amon hen and amon Sul (let those be the right names) should look like the Lighthouse of the Pharos, just not exactly, cause then its too plain. The Rohirrim are the ancient Indo Europeans (whatever morph called em). The dwarves a combination of Jews and Norse, cause lets understand this, THEY're fantasy. And so are the Elves. Another thing about the Indo Europeans, morph said something about them leading to the tall russians. Well I couldn't help but thinking about the caucasian mummies being found along the Silk Road to East Asia, like 5,000 years before the Silk Road existed. Maybe 1,000, I get all my info from tv and morph and i dont take notes. but I like to think of LOTR as more a an ancient prehistory that was lost (like Atlantis). I think that the giant Oliphaunt fits, hey there were Mammoths at one time. The armor, well, ican't argue about it cause Idont know shit. And if PJ makes this look historical rather than fantastical(is there a word for what I'm trying to say?), it will be awesome. Ok, I'm done, someone else talk.
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It's past my bedtime - and I'm a bear at work without enough sleep....grrrr. I've read the posts either lambasting or agreeing with PJ's vision of Middle-Earth (what little we know so far at least). And I'm a Martinezite to a lesser degree than Michael, but I still tend to agree with many of his opinions. I suppose that whenever fantasy and or "fairy tale" are mentioned we all have some preconceived notion that zips into our heads. Tolkien helped to change some of those notions, like our concept of Elves. And I for one would not like to see the LOTR look and feel like Errol Flynn's Robin Hood, or even Excalibre. The best I can describe what I want the film to look like is how the book made me "feel" when I read it. There was so much that was normal and recognizable. A farmed field looks like a farmed field no matter what century one lives in. And I don't want to quibble about armor - not being an expert in that area, but I don't want the armor to be "dated" - especially as medieval. The armor IMO should be realistic in the sense that it has function and utility and a robust warrior could fight all day (as Tolkien sometimes has his warriors do). Heavy armor would be a detriment to close quarter fighting - just to clumsy and confining. So scale armor or chain mail seems appropriate. Chain mail has a long history, but seems to go no further back that than Roman troops. But breastplates, greaves (sp?), shin guards and helmets have been around for a long long time. At least they seem to appear in Hollywood epics (from which I have derived most of my knowledge of ancient armor) about ancient Egypt and Greece. So what's my point? Jackson's view is probably as valid as any of ours, so I'm willing to let him have his way on how he presents his characters costuming. If it feels like Tolkien I'll like it. If it feels like fake Hollywood fanciful BS - you know, the horned adorned nonfunctional armor that no one could fight in that many fantasy films seem to delight in, then I'll hate it. But so far there seems to be more to like than dislike, and I daresay that we'll be debating this issue into the next century after the film is released.
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For what its worth, regarding all this discussion over arms and armor (yes, scale mail was alive and well in the Rohan-level of technology that corresponds to our historical frame of reference), let's not forget how diverse some of the cultures in the book are. For example, there's no reason why plate armor couldn't exist for Gondorians. After all, though they are in decline in the 3rd Age, they are the descendants of the Numenoreans, who (along with the Eldar) were WAY advanced over the tribes of men living in ME. Heck at one point, Sauron (when he was "hostage" in Numenor) had even taught them how to construct airships, metal self-propelled warships, and - believe it or not - rockets! So why not plate armor. Of course, it is, as has already been mentioned in this TB, very cumbersome and awkward, especially when fighting in close quarters (as an ancient history buff I've worn some of the stuff and it ain't fun). Anyway, enough babbling. I refuse to let typical Hollywood adjustments or minor directorial license spoil the movie for me. This, folks, make no mistake is gonna be BIG! Namarie, mellyn!
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A complete and self-important change of subject here. Just letting you all know it's ME BIRFDAY TOMORROW (the 2nd) and yes, it's the big ugly Three-Oh! Naw, I'm fine with it, jist gonna git pisht outta me skull is all! And dance the night away with all me fine old-fart-joke-crackin friends. (Thank Illuvatar fer puttin it on a Saturday!) Woo-hoo! AND OF COURSE you're ALL INVITED to the Prancing Pony (in associaion with Club Angband Distilleries) Auxiliary TB Birthday Bash and Disco Fiesta. Hope to see everybody there! I'll be the blotto blue wizard shakin his maraca under the glitter ball all night! ** Be back Monday to discuss actual topic, esp. Forde's latest journalistic fandango, and find out exactly what I did at my own party.....
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The Big Three-Oh, eh? Yikes I remember that birthday....barely. I hit that benchmark 13 years ago. -- YIKES!! A'course my erstwhile bud from up the road, morGoth, is even older than I....a couple years shy of the BIG Five-Oh as I recall. hehheh. Sorry, morGy, I couldn't resist. Oh, and BTW, morGy, for the last time, I do NOT pick toe cheese from Manwe's beloved feet (kiss kiss)-- he doesn't have any -- toe cheese that is. Namarie mellyn
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Cause there isn't much else to say, except that my name is spelled wrong. It's Modred, and the Scots consider him a hero, so the legends are a little off. I agree with Gooddulf and Morgy. I probably agree with Vanyar too, I don't remember what was said. I didn't catch morph's droopy tone about the movies, maybe i just cant understand what he said. Bye now. Oh, Happy Birfday Blue.
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...has reared it's ugly head again in E-Online's latest "Ask the Insider", prompting me to ask the insider: "What's all this about a "Palantir Staff"? Are you sure you got this right? There's nothing like it in the book. The Palantiri were "seeing stones" used by the ancient Numenoreans to communicate over long distances. Originally there were seven of them. We know from the text that by the time of TWOTR at least 3 of the stones survive, but are unsure about the fate of the other four. Gandalf carried an unadorned gnarled wooden staff. He caused the head of this staff to glow with a bluish light to help guide the Fellowship through the pitch dark Mines of Moria. Is this "Palantiri Staff" a fabrication by PJ and Co.?" *** Like maybe one of the four missing stones is riding around M.E. atop Mithrandir's staff?!!! AWK! Say it ain't so PJ! The plot ramifications are just too mind boggling! *** What say you tail-enders (that's the official name of our little clique now, you know; soon to be notorius on a web-wide-basis... Heh!) Namarie an' Trubba Not, Mr. Forde is a drunken sot! SM{;-0
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HAPPY BIRFDAY BLUE!
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No way! And if they are, they I'll have to withdrawl my support yet again. It doesn't seem as funny the second time. I need to say this, although I feel only JD will fully appreciate it. This is a quote from a book about the historical King Arthur. "They will also maintain that the barge with the four queens conveyed him all the way to Glastonbury and that water stretched the whole rout. The reason:Glastonbury was called the Isle of Avalon. Who called Glastonury the Isle of Avalon? Why, Glastonbury, of curse." Most people won't understand that or won't care, but JD showed interest in this topic before.
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Sorry, no flaming Elsie references here (other than the foregoing).
"Dis" is in reference to Sir M's
casting about for towers at Amon
Hen and Amon Sul. Amon Sul is
the Numenorian name for Weathertop, and there was once a tower there that housed a Silmaril. Amon Hen was the site of a "high seat", the one Frodo
sat in and almost brought the
"hand" of Sauron down on him before taking off the Ring. The
Argonath were the immense statues
of Isildur and Anarion just north
of Amon Hen (and Tol Brandir and
Amon Lhaw). "Dat" is about the notorious "palantir staff". Wasn't this first rumored to be in
Saruman's posession? Hope to Iluvatar it's not true...just a
John Putzian crack dream. "De udder ting" is "Happy Birthday
P. Blue!" I share 48-ness with the
morGster and another regular whose
name escapes me at the moment.
Happy 30th, and remember...the
great ascent never ceases!
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I'll raise a glass of No. 7 in your honor and to your health!***'Palantir Staff'? What? Where? Ah, yes. Reported by the redoubtable journalist extraordinaire John Forde! Well then, naturally it must be true. Upon further reflection, I think I shall wait for the movie on this one. It does seem to be a rather uneccessary deviation, but I can think of worse (no SotS). Again, trust in PJ as he loves the story as much as we do and John Forde obviously does not.***Sir M. - have you considered the alternate spelling Medraut? And now, this tail-ender is taking her tail-end off to bed. I want to be well rested for Blue's Birthday Bash.
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Centuries ago,we have the tallteutonic/caucasian type in Britain.But five milleniums ago,who were the Brits?The Iberians(from which the Dunlendings was based),short,dark skinned and haired people that maybe lved in longhouses,like the aborigines of the Pacific,Borneo and Indonesia.People who probably practiced animisme and totemisme,much like the rest of the aboriginal world.ten thousand years ago ,during the era of M-E,the Brits would probably have been purty much like the Iberians.But maybe due to the Christian -like culture of elves,they wouldn't have been so paganistic.Prehistoric elephants (like mammoths) woulda been around then.But the largest would probably had been only a metre taller than our largest African.I fear that PJ is going to make into a typical 'fantasy' movie,using big fx just to show a simple magical processes.LOTR is written along the lines of the Grecian historical manuscripts,like those of the Greek travellers and the Books of Maccabee.Sober and non allegorical,like the written campaigns of Ceasar.Here we come to the tranlation of non English lit.The Bible in its original Greek or Hebrew version would probaly had been very different from the English translation,which uses the medieval high epic language.This is bad,since we would asociate medieval looks with the Bible.Think of Tolkien's tranlastion of Beowulf.Much of the translation is lost.I. e. the measurement via the relative speed of a flying bird to the ground is changed to present maesurement units.Direct textual translation from Beowulf woulda been incomprehensible for the layman(Are floatin' timbers like logs or sumpthin'?).Think of Red Book of Westmarch.Old Man willow was said to have closed its cracks with the sound of a lock closing,perhaps this is the tranlator's modern most accurate way of translating the Westron word of describing the crack's closing sound,whic would otherwise have notsurvived direct translation.Now think of the other instances of the using of modern terms to describe what westron tongue that wouldn't had suvived direct tranlation(like the football,the locomotive,devilry).The main mode of language used to translate the Red Book would be the medieval epic language used to translate other non English lit(like Homer's works,the KIng James Bible,the early Greek plays)With this in mind,think of the armor and costumes of M-E.Mail and helms and battlements and halls mnetioned in LOTR are features of not only the Brits but other cultures as well.The Malays hve their own 'bards'(peglipur lara') who telll legends(hikayat) of 'warriors or khights'(pahlawan) saving damsels in distsress(dayang) involving giants(gergasi or monsters(rakskaksa).If 'waistcoats' are the closest thing in English to describing the Westron name for the clothings of the Hobbits,then it would probably be the sleeveless cut to the waist affair like those of the aborigines of Borneo and America I'm just asking people to beware of any associations(especially medieval) we might have when reading LOTR.....
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... recent revelations about the remaining shooting schedule and who's still "in country" indicate that it is more and more likely that TSOTS is IN! And Hallelujah! Check out the archives at TORN and the last two E-Online "On the set" reports, (I'm afraid you'll have to dig for yourself my dear as I am too lazy to provide precise URLs). Happy weekend to all I'm off to see what Sir Ian is up to on his web site; what morG referred to.... Oh yeah: Trubba Not! SM{;-0
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I meant that the two towers at the water falls, one's seeing, one's hearing. These should look aEgyptiian in my mind, but probably not in morph's. I need to ask you a question. Do you consider The Lord of the Rings to be a translation of The Red Book of Westmarch. Do you believe that Tolkien traslated it himself with no other aides, no Rosetta Stone? It's a great idea. And I have something ot say, even if you already know this. In Hawaii, there are legendary little people, and I think there might also be some form of mythical or legendary people in the English area as well. One more thing, in some dark age texts about Britain, there are mentions of a whole lotta drwaves. Though everyone interprets them as modern little people. In one story, Chertein de Troyes Lancelot (not writtenin DA, but in the middle ages), Lance takes a ride in a cart (probably an artillery machine) that is driven by a drwaf. I know this is a little too modern, but most legends written a millenium after the occurrence have some attributes that are oftenly misplaced. I gotta go cause I'm on my way to the Club, I gotta tell JD how she might not know anything about the HISTORICAL Arthur.
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Morpheus, we are at loggerheads again! A while back some one posted a URL to a tape of an interview with Tolkien. One of the questions the interviewer asked was when the LOTR was supposed to have taken place. Tolkien (as best as I can recall) said that although Middle-Earth is OUR Earth, the story doesn
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I want to heartily agree with morph. Tolkien spoke of so many things that he could have never known (maybe not so many, but some). Morph always points these out. Like the pygmies, how they weren't 'discovered' until c1970. Others like the Ent stuff. And here's another thing, why would TOlkien say, "Look at what I've found, it's an ancient book written in Archaic English (wahtever was in England at the time of Numenor) and it talks of Elves and dwarves." Do you think the scholars (he was an english professor) would say 'really, well that's great.' Tolkien's source is probably long gone; I know it was only written in the 50s, but Geoffrey of Monmouth's 'source' for the History of the Kings of Britain was lost and was never around to support him. And here's another thing to think about, "The best trick the devil ever pulled was to make people believe he never existed." Then again I could be wasted on JD's No. 7.
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Dearest Skyway, most beloved of Moaters! You have renewed my hope. I was wondering why Brad Dourif (Grima) was still on location. Perhaps (and hopefully) filming SotS. I think it's important to show how our young hobbits have matured and grown on their perilous journey.
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But didn't they already burn Hobbiton?
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Actually I'm just asking people to question their preconceptions when reading LOTR.If the beginning of LOTR,there is no question of a translator.I don't know about Ips.But this movie ,which the nearest thing to bring alive M-E,makes me worry.All this disassociation of being 'English'.Not only in LOTR,but other films ,especially about the future and the past.So we have Anglo Saxon armors and knights in a movie about an earlier Briton general that fought Saxons,mind you (!).We have 'medieval'clothings aboput a purportedly prehistoric book.We have Californian like police msirens and Hari Rama cults and neo-thriller atmosphere3 in the near future of Blade Runner.We have the '50s gothic monster in space ,where noone can hear you scream!Actually,Morg,I'm just saying that the culture of English is not exceptional,like any other cultures.The coming Dark Lord would be the Hindu's Krishna incarnate form of the Destroyer at the end of Kali Yuga.We have the Native American Hopi propehecies of the end of ages,the Ragnarok of the Norsemen,the biblical end of times...
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... I hope they aren't a CLOSE friend! This has always been one of my pet peeves: That Tolkienoids have to suffer the comments of fools... er... um... the unitiated shall we say... making comments about LOTR when they don't know the first thing about it, tch tch... guess it's time to find another companion for movie going huh? You do of course realize that this post is completely for the sake of evoking a giggle? I have plenty of good friends myself around whom I never bring up the subject because they invariable have something insulting to say... Oh well, guess they just don't know what they're missing... well some of them do and are glad that they are missing it. I guess there's no accounting for taste... Hey I'm TRYING to be non-judgmental and condescending but LOTR is so near and dear that I'm afraid I haven't succeeded on that account. *SIGH* Namarie an' Trubba Not SM{;-0
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Here's something you gotta say in Excalibur's defense. It was the 80's. Many good things came from the 80's (me being one of the best, and of coure 'Tainted Love'), but there were also many failed experiments. Another thing, Excalibur is an interpretation, and it came out around the same time as Lynch's interpretation of Dune. Don't judge modern culture's view of King Arthur based on one man's interpretation of it. You can when I do my version, but that won't be for another ten to twenty years, maybe more; I am only 18. Once again morph, I don't really understand what you mean at the end of your TB. I would understand each sentence serparately, but I don't understand the connection you're making to English culture, Excalibur, or LOTR. Ingold, you told the friend, "No, absolutely not!" Right? The only saving grace D&D might have is that if it knows it sucks and isn't 'funny' (judged by popular standards). Then D&D can be a cool funny thing like Street Fighter and Double Dragon. But I doubt it. And dammit! It's Patrick Stewart. He may be forever known as the Star Trek dude, hell, that's how I first saw him, but I also saw him do great performances in Excalibur, Dune, and the best Robin Hood: Men in Tights. Moaters, I am with you in that, I can't remember telling anyone about how much I llke LOTR. Hell, in high school, people are branded left and right.
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...the fact that they did burn Hobbiton actually encourges my blief that TSOTS may be in the films. Just because they've already, ostensibly, filmed The Battle of Bywater, (when they burned the set) does not mean that they might still have plans to film "Sharkey's End" befor shootin wraps this month. The whole project has been shot out of sequence. There's no SURE way to tell the fate of TSOFTS until ROTK is released.... THREE YEARS #$@^%$ FROM NOW! Unless of course we get some sort of "conclusive" "spy report" (as if there could be such a thing). I merely said that it was looking more and more likely that TSOTS is in. My optimism stems partly from PJ's assertion that they are "moving closer and closer to the books". Now we hear that Brad Dourif is still in country among other little hints. If it's NOT TSOTS I grow increasingly afraid that some gross perversion of Saruman's and Grima's messy ends has been perpretrated. Of course the shooting with Dourif could be completely unrelated; clean up shots, re-shoots, a thousand things. I prefer to remain optimistic and interpret the "evidence" as being a good sign that TSOTS is indeed going to be in ROTK. SM{;-0
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New LOTR TB on AICNS main page "Christopher Lee" and LOTR. Get yer tails over there me lads!... and Lasses!
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You can still smell the stink
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The geeky underbelly of AICN.
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Puff. Gasp. Wheeze. 300! Only 3700 more to go to reach the 4000s . . . huff. puff. gasp.
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Some jokes just write themselves
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