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Another positive look at Oliver Stone's WORLD TRADE CENTER!!
Ahoy, squirts! Quint here. I'm having a bit of a difficult time placing this review. It comes off as a little greeny, if you know what I'm saying, but at the same time it makes some valid points on the pieces that don't work. In the end, if I disregarded all the reviews that were positive then we'd all turn into crazy, negative hate-mongers, cynical about every movie that comes out. Plus, I'm really pulling for this one to work. The bit below about the script being perhaps the weakest aspect of the film strikes me as true. The early, non-shooting draft I read was pretty weak-sauce, but in the hour I was onset almost none of the scripted dialogue remained. So, I hope they retooled the script enough to make this movie as touching and as heartfelt a tribute to the true heroes of that day as this movie needs to be. Enjoy the review.
Hey guys, about a week and a half ago, I took my
girlfriend to see the latest Pixar flick, Cars. While
waiting in line to buy tickets a guy come up to me and
asked me if I would be interested in participating in
a screening of World Trade Center. We would be asked
to fill out surveys when we were finished watching the
movie.
So, I attended the work in progress screening of
“World Trade Center” in Bloomington, MN last Thursday
night. I was not going to write in until I read the
review you guys posted from the same screening. I
couldn’t believe he was using words like “strictly
TV-movie-of-the-week-level.” I think he missed the
point of the movie. It seemed to me that Oliver Stone
made this movie strictly as a tribute to those police
and fire officials that gave their lives to help
protect people on 9-11. It is supposed to be
patriotic! It does seem like a different Stone
though, very restrained. Which I thought was a good
approach especially considering the subject matter.
There are no MTV style quick cuts. There are no giant
conspiracy theories. I would be surprised if it isn’t
rated PG-13 when it is released. It’s just a small
glimpse into what it must have been like for some of
those people involved. It really is the story of John
McLoughlin and William Jimeno. The movie also takes
its time at certain points. Nothing that can’t be
fixed with a tiny amount of editing. The cut we saw
has to be close to a finished print. They said the
score wasn’t completed yet. I actually thought the
temp score they used was very good. It’s pretty close
to the music that is used in the trailer for the
movie. They also said that we saw it on HD tape
because it hadn’t been put to film stock yet.
I thought the acting was top notch. Some of the stuff
with Maria Bello seemed a little too much at times,
but, she still does a great job. Especially in the
scenes with her characters children. Cage’s role is a
different role for him. There is no way over-the-top
acting like a lot of us have grown accustomed to
seeing. His performance is much more subdued. The
real star of the movie IS Michael Pena. This guy is
awesome. I’ve only seen him in a few things. He was
one of the few things I actually liked in Crash, and
he was very good a couple of years ago (the Glenn
Close season) on FX’s the Shield. I can’t wait to see
what he does next. Seeing the guy who plays Ethan on
Lost show up as a hero was a little strange. But,
anybody who doesn’t watch Lost won’t even notice.
I think the script probably is the weakest part of the
movie. But, it gets the job done. I mean it is based
on a true story, they are not trying to reinvent the
wheel here. There are a few cornball lines thrown in
there. But, I think they work, because about halfway
through the movie it really needs a few tension
releases. The tension and suspense really cranks up,
and a few of the cornball lines loosen it up just
enough, but, not too much.
Overall I would highly recommend this movie. You walk
out of the movie with a feeling of hope. If you’re
cynical and think that any movie about a disaster has
to end downbeat you will probably hate this movie.
Likewise, if you want to see explanations/politics
behind the actual disaster. It’s really a fitting
tribute to the heroes of 9-11. It is sad and very
intense, at the end of the screening it did receive a
nice round of applause. Not to mention a lot of tears
flowing in the audience. It’s not the perfect 9-11
movie, but it's close. If you use this you can call
me MinnesotaFarmBoy.
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and the first to say PLANT!!
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Well if it isnt planty mcplanterton
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I don't like to raise the PLANT alarm...but it's pretty easy to spot here. Oliver Stone making a good movie? Uh-huh...
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Bubbee, you owe me a Coke.
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People die...Lots of them.
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Because Americans are so braindead that the only way they can respond to a news event is to make a stupid movie about it. Hey Stone, how about making a film about our brave soldiers that shot those innocent iraqi children in cold blood?
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Because no-one would ever want to say they hate a movie because of a certain director (see JohnGalt06's post and any review of X-men 3 for a recent example). Maybe tastes and perceptions differ from person to person at the movies, but then again I'm just a cold blooded optimist!
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I think it will take someone from our generation to create something meaningful like you're talking about. There are alot of people, including some frightened liberals, who worry that if they make something honest they will be accused of not supporting our troops. It will probably be ten years before you see something truly meaningful and searching come out. As for books....one decent one is out called "Generation Kill". It isn't as well written as "Short Timers" but it is well done.
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The guy says it's no way a TV movie, and then goes on to describe it as such. Genius.
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'Hey Stone, how about making a film about our brave soldiers that shot those innocent iraqi children in cold blood?' What about Platoon when he shows the Mai Lai massacre? It's not like Stone's afraid of that subject matter, he's done it before and wanted a different approach (maybe cynically a career reviving approach) but it's not like Stone hasn't tackled the behaviour of America's militayr before
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Alien plants from Planet Shill invade the Internet and post on AICN: film at 11. Good god. My tip-off is when an overwhelmingly positive review mentions bad things, but dismissively so. i.e., "There was some over-acting, but we've seen worse and it only added to the FUN!" kind of thing.
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In fact, "plant" is misleading, because basically by saying "plant", you are suggesting that the studio is trying to fight bad publicity by planting fake reviews on sites like AICN. Nah, I doubt many bother to do that because no one gives a shit what anybody on this site writes and it doesn't affect the BO. I think most fake reviews--positive and negative--come from people who get a kick out of pulling one past Harry and Co. Suckers!
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Fair point.
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and join the massed ranks of feel-good patriots promoting US hypocrisy (some innocents deserve to be saved, others murdered depending on where they were born) instead of questioning why our misleaders get away with bullshitting us into another vietnam. Ah the CIA probably have pics of Stone bumming some asian kid or something.
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Yeah, I fuckin said it.
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I consider myself far from right wing and understand your problems with gingoistic cinema, but there's a fine distinct difference between celebrating the heroism of the everyman, which I believe what Stone and Greengrass are attempting and the exploitation of tragedy for political gain. This film's about guys who overcome great tragedy. It's not about the vile dichotomy of old men sending kids fresh out of high school off to fight in a war they don't understand. It's more about triumph over adversity than let's go kick ass
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It does sound pretty planty though. I won't be seeing any 9-11 movies for a while. For me there just isn't a need right now. A feeling which seems seems to be the same for most cinema goers (NB how the last movie vanished without a trace from theaters). I can see why the makers of this movie are worried that no one will go see this one either...
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or whatever the hell's its called looks more interesting and thoughtful than this film. Recreating the tragedy for the sake of recreating the tragedy...I see what Greengrass was doing with his film but this one doesn't strike me the same way, basically I do not believe that Stone's heart is in make a heartfelt tribute to the firefighters who died on 9/11. Come on, you know deep down he's itching to do a jittery, conspiracy-theorist, edited-in-a-quassinart piece of baffling speculation about 9/11...but to do so would be the end of his career ("Alexander" was close enough, already).
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This is not exactly on topic but since you mentioned "why they hate you" (Fettamundo's post above) this seems like a good time to tell some of you some stuff. I am a Canadian who actually likes America and Americans but I thought I would share some perceptions that the rest of the world (and I dont mean Canada here, I mean everyone else) has of the USA right now. 1) The world hates you because you are the dominant superpower in the world. They used to hate Spain, England, Rome and the rest in their turn to. You cant do much about this.
2) they hate you because you wont play or pay attention to soccer - or even call it football. You had to invent your own sports - and you refuse to pay attention to anything you dont win at.
3) speaking of football - American football is considered rugby with armor and too many breaks. Basically, they think you are pussies.
4) Your press coverage is exported throughout the world,unfortunately that press coverage generally serves to demonstrate that. Most americans do not know or care much about the fact that there is a rest of the world out there that does not speak english. It shows whenever someone who is not American watches American news. And dont bother trying to rebut what I am saying here until you watch a BBC news report and figure out the difference. 5) you export your movies everywhere but would rather die than import any. specially if there are subtitles involved.
6) Now onto recent politics, which have exacerbated things. Im sorry to say this - Im a fairly conservative guy after all - BUT you elected an obviously inappropriate fellow as president at what turned out to be a particularly inopportune time. Seriously he is embarassing. Republicans: this was YOUR FAULT - during the primaries. you must NEVER EVER EVER let this happen again.
7) This president proceeded to squander your goodwill post 9/11 by refusing to be dissuaded from his desire to solve the pre-existing Iraq problem and by instituting the worst communications plan of such a policy in the history of the western world. 8) You are 200% behind the idea of Israel. A great deal of the world still considers israel to be a zionist occupation of very questionable morality (I am not one of these people btw. Just giving you the heads up. When it comes to the middle my opinion is very nuanced. Your media treats it like this: Israel = good guys. Arabs = Bad guys. You may want to look into that.)
9. You largely invented international law. Now you are refusing to abide by it. This hypocrisy is really starting to irk people. -------------- Personally, I like Americans and the US a lot. I think your contribution to the world is highly undervalued and most of the world has a ton of blood on its hands. But since your own media doesnt do a good job of sending impressions back to you I thought I'd let a big audience know. :-)
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The animals that attacked the WTC (Saudis by the way, not Iraquis) are just as bad as the animals in Iraq whereing US flags and dragging people out of their homes for summary executions. In fact I think an interesting film could be made about the tragic events of 9/11/01. Follow an average, middleclass citizen who directly experienced the attack, and follow the President and Vice President of the United States. Get the man on the street heroism (Which certainly took place no matter where you stand politicaly) and the SAT Phone conversations that allowed many of the Saudis to be spirited out of the country. The excited calls between Rove, Wof, and Rumsfeld when they realized they would have their war. End the film with our everyman/hero covered in ash and blood finally making it home to his family while Bush smokes a stogie on the porch with the Saudi Arabian ambassador. Theres your movie.
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That is all.
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How about Stone make a movie about the two soliders whose bodies were recently recovered, killed by Iraqis? How about Stone make a movie about terrorist kidnappings/beheadings of innocent journalists, contractors, religious missionaries? Oh, that's right, only "America is bad" message movies are appropriate.
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BTW, I do not condone what our soliders did. I just don't think we need a movie about it to "accurately" represent the current situation over there.
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If it was any greener we would all smoke up...
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That's weird. I remember a loooong time ago Bush flew onto an aircraft carrier and announced that the war was won (amid lots of high fives and backslapping). Did I miss a memo? As far as I'm concerned Bush and Blair have blood on their hands and ought to be on trial for genocide and mass murder. But that's just me... It's a sad situation all round, and our leaders aren't making things better.
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For years, people have complained about the middle east and what goes on over there. For the first time EVER, a president stepped up to do something about it. He never claimed it would be clean or we wouldn't lose men. But doing something in the middle east was a long time coming. Now, people just want to put the blood on Bush's hands, or say it's just for the oil. (Funny, though, how those chants have died out since gas hit three bucks a gallon.)People need to realize that being the leaders of the world also sometimes necessitates getting our hands dirty.
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I propose we have more people live, only one plane hit NY, and Michael Madsen as the prez personally shooting down the one headed for DC. Oh, and retcon Al-Qaeda so they are angry vegans out to punish beef-eating Americans.
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I kind of agree. Except what exactly were you supposed to be doing something about "over there"? and what has been/will be demonstrably improved? Just want to check the historical record against some metrics. (p.s. oh United States, speaking of the word metric, get with the fucking metric system. I mean, honestly people, You should be ashamed of yourselves.)
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I didn't realise Bush was elected on the 'Invade Iraq' ticket. (Although he is going for the 'Invade Iran follow up' ticket for his successor.) What an excellent demonstration in democracy invading a country half-way round the world is. Slavery is Freedom! Indeed...
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What a cavalier attitude you have. I lost a good friend on 9/11. She worked in the WTC. And guess what? As she was grinding out her $36,000 a year job some terrorists got it in their head that hitting the financial hub of the world would be a good idea. Guess what?! It wasn't. She was a sweet girl, with a beautiful smile and a beautiful heart and all she wanted to do that day was her job, and go home, and read a story to her kids, instead she became a statistic. So don't fucking tell me that "they should make a story about ourbrave soldiers splilling the blood of innocent Iraquis". Our soldiers aren't perfect, but they've picked up a weapon and are doing the job that their government has asked of them and for that show some fucking respect. If you can be a better example of what a soldier SHOULD be, then pick up a fucking pen and sign YOUR name to Uncle Sam's contract. Then YOU go show the rest of those "murderers" how it's done. But you won't, will you? No, you'll sit at your computer and speak of shit you know NOTHING about. My cousin Walter, a fine Marine, lost his right leg and 90% of his hearing in Iraq. You know what he was doing at the time Fettamundo?? He was handing out rations to kids and was hit by a carbomb. He wasn't killing kids you fuck, he was FEEDING them!! As for Stone's movie, I hope it does inspire hope and it does give mad love to the heros of the day. And I'll keep praying for the familes of not only the victims of 9/11 but for the soldiers out there on the front line and their families as well. And Fett....enjoy your freedom, cause' even asshole like you have a right to be protected.
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Well, discounting the fact that Saddam is no longer mass executing people, his sons aren't murdering and raping scores of women, government sponsored torture is over and the entire country doesn't have to live in fear of further genocide, not much. It takes years and years for a country to rebuild itself after a war. Look at how long it took Japan to get back on track. and America wasn't exactly a booming world power in the couple years following the revolution. So before you start screaming about results, give it some time. (And I mean other results then the small ones I've already named, of course.)
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I suggest Jack Nicholson as Osama...
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Wow? How about thank you America. People are screaming about the atrocities going on in the Sudan right now and how we are ignoring them. I guarantee that should we go over there and do something, people like you will be screaming about "invading a country half way around the world, sticking our noses into something that we don't need to, and bullying another nation." In your eyes, nothing we do would be right I'm sure. Bush was elected on a "We support what you are doing" ticket. And if we didn't need to do something in the middle east, I just have one question for you...How many times did you visit the area, since it was so wonderful before the USA went in?
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Now that the USA is good at righting wrongs in other countries I hear that North Korea is next! Things are all kinds of f-ed up there! What? Oh they have nukes so they can defend themselves from invasion? Oh, and no oil? Erm... Yeah Iran! You watch out we're comming!
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InfoWars.com Wake up Sheeple!
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the only reason I would have to go to that shit hole would be if I were connected to the Oil Industry or Military. Thankfully I am not connected with either...
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I never would've figured "If you liked Cars, you'll love WTC" as a marketing angle.
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our fellow countrymen's behavio(u)r abroad. Some of us would surprise you - especially how some of us in Texas are pretty low-key and intelligently respectful of other cultures. However, fuck the metric system. Fin.
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People who believe the 9/11 conspiracy theories (like the guys at infowars.com) are really kinda sad. I had a whole big debate about this with an activist friend of mine. Our debate is at
conspiracyclash.blogspot.com . You can find some links on there that do an excellent job of debunking the idea that 9/11 was a false flag operation perpetrated by the Bush administration. Teemu13, I did some thorough checking of available resources and backed it with common sense. Trust me, by going around parrotting a second rate PT Barnum like Alex Jones, YOU are being the sheeple. -
Doctor_Sin makes the point excellently. Forget that its used by everyone else on the planet. Everyone else is stupid. We Americans know better. OK...gotcha. Good thing you're polite in restaurants. ;-)
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Brother...if you lost a friend in the 9/11/01 attacks that is truly a sad and horrible thing. If you are lying in some sort of attempt to gain some credibility...you are a rotten bastard. If you are telling the truth, not only is it sad..but it has NOTHING TO DO WITH IRAQ! If you want revenge for that particular attack call your congressman...tell him we need to invade one of the other dictatorships over there...one that really attacked us on September 11, 2001...Saudi Arabia. One final thing in defence of Texans:
I have been an American living in Europe. I loved the people and had the time of my life so far. I actually plan on retiring there one day. I lived in Italy, but traveled around. You are absolutely right that American tourist can be ignorant, stupid, and crude. Texans- however- aren't the only American assholes. There are some good, soulful people in Texas. Bush is NOT a Texan. He is from Maine. He might try to act like a good old boy but he is a blueeblood yankee. Final note on Texas:
"It don't matter who's in Crawford...Bob Wills is still the King!" -
made me giggle
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Just 'fuck the metric system.' ;)) What we have works fine and dandy for the average person, whether they are smart or stupid. That way, no one has to be expected to work at improving their minds. I just don't wanna deal with learning all that stuff over again at my age. Oh, and yeah - I hate 'ugly Americans' type of behavior. I freely admit my ignorance when in another country. Oh, btw - have we lost to Ghana yet?
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LOL - Yeah, Ghana trashed us. At least we scored this time! :) As compared to our dismal match against the Czechs.
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12 is a more interesting number than 10. Screw royales with cheese, I want a quarter-pounder.
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I hear you. One, I'm not lying to gain credibility. We're all using fake names to talk shit to each other about movies, so I'm not at ALL cocerned about how I am perceived here. Concern about credibility here is like worrying about having "tells" in an on-line poker room. Doesn't fucking matter. That being said, I know that 9/11 has nothing to do with Iraq. My point was in regards to Fett acusing the soldiers there of being murderers. My cousin was a soldier there and had his life radically changed when he was, in fact, trying to help. Not hurt. The war is bullshit. Everyone knows it. But I refuse to spit on the men and women brave enough to be there.
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First I am British, (Welsh actually).
Second, I am an admirer of many things american - I go on holiday there every year, enjoy american movies, etc. The usual.
I am also half French (please don't hate me because of it: my grandma got out of the country because she was sick of it).
Anyway, Americans on holiday or visiting other countries are mostly rude, superior and a pain in the ass.
Fer instance: in Paris a few years ago I was sworn at by an American because he couldn't fit his thirty-odd pieces of luggage in an elevator designed for two (Europan-size) people.
When I saw him later he called me a 'French asshole' for some reason assuming I couldn't speak English. I did tell him - in remarkably good English - what I thought of him. For the next three days he was there whenever he saw me he started complaining loudly to the hotel management about the 'rude Brit who had insulted him'.
Funny thing is, whenever I would try to confront him, he would run away.
Asshole.
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Ditto the Anerican tourists who took it as a personal insult that the Metro didn't take American money; the American tourists who ran down the corridors of the Louvre; the - oh why bother?
When one goes to the US, one invariably comes across nice, polite, welcoming, genuine people.
Why you only seem to send your assholes abroard I don't know.
Change of subject.
A good friend of mine is Iraqi. he fled here in the 80s because the authorities were after him and his family. They tortured and then murdered all his brothers, brutalized his mother and raped his sisters.
Yes, I know, you've all heard it before, blah, blah, blah.
Anyway he welcomed the invasion, and is a big fan of what the Allies are trying to do in Iraq. he was able to get back for the first time after all these years and was avle to see his mother and ensure she's all right.
He says that after any war / occupation, it always takes a long time to come together. Think Germany after WW2, etc.
Add in all the other factors, and he thinks that the US and it's allies will be there for a long haul yet.
I have faith that there are a lot of good people out there in Iraq - and in Washington - and they're trying to do the right thing.
Let's wait and see.
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They just get sent to places the old men in suits don't want to go, to do things the old men in suits can't be bothered to do. Headlines are made by stuff like, "Wacko soldier guns down own platoon, rapes an Iraqi schoolful of kids and then uses the men for pinatas." 'Don't believe everything you read' - that goes both ways.
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sorry 95% of the world uses it. Everyone except the people who invented the imperial system and one of their colonies. anyway, last I will say about metric. its just another example of american exceptionalism - which you are going to pay a higher and higher price for. Storm clouds are brewing, folks. Anyway, as I said before, Im not anti-american. I think you do more good than you are given credit for (even more good than you give yourselves credit for based on some of your liberal self loathing youth) and a lot more good than most other countries in the world have ever managed to do. So please keep anything I might say in that context. Not cuz Im a kiss ass. because its a stone cold fact.
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Where did we lose track of the Plant accusations, gay jokes, racist diatribes, admin-bashing, and director-hating? I still call this goddamn "review" a garden of waist-high Triffids, each coiling its sinister chlorophyl-imbued veins about AICN's bloated, sinking corpse.
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Don't get me started on the English!
'Sigh' My mother-in-law's English....
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and cut all the political bull. I'm not surprised that the studio is pulling out all the stops to try and get people to watch this (PLANT!). When they saw how much United 93 made they must have shit themselves!
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Sheeple! What a clever marketing slogan. "The people that believe 9/11 was caused by Arab hijackers are sheeple -- people being led like sheep to the slaughter!" Alex Jones is a paranoid maniac, but I'm sure he's doing quite well for himself financially peddling his CT theories and clever slogans to people like you.
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any series of movie reviews I've ever seen. I almost think half the people in here are conservatives pretending to be idiot liberals in order to give libs a bad name. In fact, I'm sure of it...liberals aren't this dumb. PLANT!!!
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I much prefer Howard Roark. Hmmm...brings up a good question though - how do American conservatives reconcile the War on Terror and the actions of Ayn Rand's explosive protagonists?
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Everyone who walks or bikes knows what a "klick" is. And everyone knows how much liquid a liter is, or at least how much liquid two liters is. People still use the older system for driving speeds, and for describing the height and weight of a person, but use metric interchangeably for a lot of other things. And we could change the driving speed thing pretty quickly by jsut changing the signage and handing out tickets until people got the message.
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If you're referring to Howard Roark, he blew up something that he had the rights to. He designed his creation for no fee, except that it be constructed to his exact specifications. He was not paid--and as such, had every right to destroy it (killing no one). As for the heros of "Atlas Shrugged", they merely remove themselves from society and industry, and the world implodes on itself.
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Mah schoolin' done paid off!
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groups are just fine in Europe or Asia. A busload of people visiting any foreign coutry is shit no matter what nation. People just get loud and obnoxious in groups. Also it comes from being afraid or frustrated. You should see some unbelivably insulting behavior from bus tours visiting friedly neighbouring coutries in
all over EU. -
Roark had no legal right to blow up his buildings. That part is the most laughable part of the book. But then Im speaking as a lawyer. Believe me, jury selecting stone faced men and giving a political rant would not have saved H.R. in the real world. ;-). He also couldnt be sure of the safety of the demolition. He sure is lucky no boinking teenagers got squished. (yes, folks, as you can tell, Im not overly concerned about whether this talkback about an Oliver Stone 9/11 movie stays on topic)
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I guess you never had to weave your way through masses of European tourists in NYC who are either blissfully ignorant or uncaring of the fact that some people have to get to work. And yes, they ask questions in their own languages, as well.
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It's seriously too fucking late for this. The 9/11 hype machine has died down (not that Bush and every President following him won't bring it up when they make any offensive decisions) we should be on the second sequel by now! Jesus H Christ on a Crutch Cradling a Rabbit in a Hutch, when will they learn? First Pearl Harbour, then Kennedy, now this. Eventually the world will collapse because it's being held up with lies and naught else. The world needs Superman.
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I've been waiting for a response from you in the Superman TB. Are you ignorant or something?
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Thats it! Fall for the New World Order and their Evil.Become a slave! Cause I'm sure you'll have no problem being one and giving up your freedoms! most of you are brainwashed and Alex Jones provides actual facts,but you sheeple are too blind and into your own desires and evils to care to see the Evil in this World and Country.I wont argue with you because its pointless! You either see it or you dont! I just hope Americans wont give up their Freedoms for false Security!
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You moved way up the TB scale in my book with that Waylon reference!
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You just arent seeing the opportunities, Teemu13. One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the Ants, um, I mean, New World Order will soon be here. And I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them as trusted Internet personalities, we can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.
(with apologies to Mr. Kent Brockman) -
They type nothing of substance! They follow their ramblings about the New World Order with exclamation points! This proves they are right! They tell me I'm blind to the evils of the world, yet won't acknowledge the existence of terrorists that kidnap, torture, and behead. I've already gone on record in this TB saying some of the things our soldiers have done in this war are morally repugnant, but these rare instances do not excuse the belief that everyone in the Middle East is just happy-go-lucky innocents killed for a couple barrels of oil.
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What watered-down bullshit. "A tribute for the men and women that died saving other blah, blah, blah"? W-T-F. This from the man who directed SALVADOR? You've failed us, Stone. You failed us. Do we honestly need yet ANOTHER film kissing the asses of the police and firefighters?? Uh, newsflash: SAVING PEOPLE IS WHAT THEY GET PAID TO DO. Is it great for them to do it? Yes. Absolutely. Would you or I save someone if we could? Yes. Absolutely. That's human nature, no matter what cynics say. The police and firefighters just get TRAINED to do it better and more efficiently. AND-GET-PAID-TO-DO-IT. How about making a movie about how Hollywood is making movies off of stuff like 9/11, Stone? How about a film showing how New York is TODAY. A film that shows that there is still NOTHING built in the memory of 9/11, and that what WILL be built, will be under ground. UNDER. Ground. Why? Politics and fuck-ups. Your speciality, Stone. You've failed us.
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"Alex Jones provides actual facts". Holy shit...
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I love how you say cynicism isn't part of human nature and then write that diatribe. I don't question the need for a film that addresses the issues still surrounding the WTC site, but I have no problem with a story that honors they firemen and policemen who gave their lives that day. Just out of curiosity, how many civilians do you know that ran into that building trying to save people?
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...no fucking kidding, huh?
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Alex Jones is a paranoid fearmonger. Nuff said.
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Don't you know there is no war at all? That we've run Iraq all along? That most of the war footage is, in fact, shot in Arizona? And that all of the U.S. Media is in on it? As the government distracts you from their real plans while pretending to debate a war, you go along with it, not realizing that soon you'll have chips implanted in your brain that keep track of everything you think! And the World Trade Center? Come on, people, how stupid are you? There NEVER WAS A WORLD TRADE CENTER! It was all a hoax. Several alternative news sites were going to break the story--the government had to create the massive fake 9/11 attacks to cover the fact that the World Trade Center never really existed at all! And who helped engineer all that fake media on that fateful day? None other than Oliver Stone. Think about it, people. These are REAL FACTS!!! If I have to, I'll add even more exclamation points.
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Yes there is one who will Stop Satan and his New World Order!
The Kings of Kings,Our Lord and Saviour,Our Creator,Jesus Christ My God! Yes,many of you will laugh,but we all will stand before God and when he casts you into eternal fire you'll will then remember that he is God and you will have wished you didnt deny him.So let the New World Order come,cause God will win in the end! Believe it! -
I've seen the trailer and it looks like horseshit.
I like the way the reviewers said that he highly recommends the film have the script is poor. Eh!?! How does that work? -
Thats the (holy) Spirit! I dont know about you, but I got the joy joy joy joy down in my heart! and if the devil doesnt like it he can sit on a tack! and...um... shit. Im out of tacks. anyone got a tack? nail? something pointy. I dont care. anything. pencil...Teemu13's head...ladies stiletto...(wanders off muttering)
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...what you've sarcastically hinted at here is not that far from what folks like Alex Jones will try to tell you. And my favorite "theories" so far have been that it was not planes that hit the Towers - but missles disguised by holograms. (ILM may or may not have been involved.) And also that the Towers were brought down by low-yield nuclear devices. Apparently, one can tell this is so by a particular glow that eminates during certain portions of footage before the Towers fall. They like to call this glow "Alpha radiation". But if you listen to Jones, he's going with the professor from BYU theory that the Towers were brought down by thermite...and that it was an inside job. Translation: our government did this.
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I mean, people in extreme situations like that are going to probably be speaking in cliches. They're labeled cliches for a reason, and a straightforward reenactment of these events probably isn't going to involve poetically written and delivered soliliques about heroism, life, and death.
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Silly me. In other news, murder is legal for Heisman trophy winners.
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"That's weird. I remember a loooong time ago Bush flew onto an aircraft carrier and announced that the war was won (amid lots of high fives and backslapping). Did I miss a memo?" ......... Actually, you must have missed his speech on that aircraft carrier, a loooong time ago. Don
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"Mission Accomplished" cantankerous?
http://tinyurl.com/zh999 Has the mission been accomplished? What was the mission? Why did the mission happen in the first place? Check your facts. Mine stand by themselves as self evident. What was your point anyway?
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How about "He got him!" or "Shock and Awe!" Seems like people will forgive anything for a snappy soundbite. It makes me sick...
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1) The world hates you because you are the dominant superpower in the world.... That is a burden we Americans are prepared to live with. 2) they hate you because you wont play or pay attention to soccer - or even call it football.... Sounds like
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doing trolloing around at a site dedicated to Hollywood anyway? Don't you know that Jesus hates people from Hollywood...? Well except for Mel Gibson and Kirk Cameron of course...they have immunity...Seriously dude wouldn't you be more comfortable with the crowd at FredPhelps.net of smoothyoungboys.com?
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I think you misunderstood my point. I wasnt positing, exlicitly or by implication, the infallability of juries. I was pointing out that the law in the real world would not allow Howard Roark with blowing up those buildings. what I said in the last post was just a reference to what happens in the trial in the fountainhead. (I quite enjoyed the book btw. Im not an opponent. Im just pointing out some of the silliness that exists therein.)
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you seem to be proud of why the rest of the world hates the USA. Are you a member of a 'Militia'?
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You don't know? Did you even listen to the speech at the time or did your attention span end with the banner?
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in future I will only concentrate on the points that aren't inconvenient and uncomfortable for people to deal with. Bush only ever does good things. The USA only ever does good things. ***DO NOT DEBATE ME ON THIS!***
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Im not going point by point with you. I provided info. How you deal with it is up to you. I will answer your request for examples though with two words: Enemy Combatants. (as in, they arent prisoners of war, so they dont get those rights). On more technical points I suppose I could talk about trying to get the US to abide by their own trade treaties, but that would be very un-cool news indeed so I'll leave it at that.
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Are we blaming Jews for anything yet. Oh, okay, I'll come back later for the good stuff.
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Alex Jones is in it on it. It's just a trick to continue to make the debate about something that NEVER EXISTED! The World Trade Center was a hoax! Don't blame me with you take your dog to the vet and YOU come back the tracking chip implanted in your brain! And, VanLingoMungo, "blame the jews"? Wake up, you sheeple! THERE ARE NO JEWS! ISRAEL is a hoax! There were no Jews to engineer 9/11 because there are no JEWS and NO WORLD TRADE CENTER! Don't be distracted from the plot to implant the microchips, which you can just bet Oliver Stone is in on and has been. Does "Alexander" make sense as a movie? No! But it makes perfect sense as A SECRET CODE SENT TO ACTIVATE NEW WORLD ORDER SLEEPER CELLS! They're coming to bar-code you all, and you just don't see it!
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Attention Deficit Disorder. Weren't we talking about a banner?
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"..whereas Mr. Knowles may be a man of sincerity it is more likely his restrictive, serpentine manservant, a D-list screenwriter, parent and the site's real Phantom Menace, who does not share both the politics and patience of his employer; this ardent fascist is stuck with the unenviable task of filling "talkbacks" with made up "stock characters" like VanLingoMungo, 'kevinwillis.net' or Mr.Nice Gaius, etc. who lie and exaggerate to absurdity in a war of baiting, smearing, framing and banning the site's few genuine posters when they stray from his fake posters' daily collective dogma: Western culture is supereior, Foreigners, Democrats, Islamic/Christian Fundamentalists, 9/11 truthseekers/movments and the Poor are the enemy and therefore are marked for extinction, War and genocide, which are good for America, and the official story on 9/11 is the gospel. This is the collective wisdom of AICN. "do not try to debate me" is the current mantra there, showing their hubris. talkbackers attempting to correct such fraudulence are surrounded branded and dismissed as trolls, haters,"tinfoil wackos", certified paranoid loonys (yet with no credentials in psychiatry , making it baseless)etc., even when the FBI's Rex Tomb confirms Bin Laden's absolute non-involvement in 911 or when even arrested dancing agents make astounding admissions of complicity.. the behavior of this 'walter mitty' wimp of many names is a total coverjob for the globalist state, besmirches the goodwill/Progressive image of Mr. Knowles.." -- very recent article
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Has the US done anything that any other nation wouldn't do under similar circumstances? You know the saying about stones and glass houses, right?
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Oil and finishing Daddy's war aren't reasons to invade a country. However, good things will come of the war and the future generations of Iraq will benefit from this act, however shamelessly self-interested it was.
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Parody, right?..... BUD: Hippy, you think everything is a conspiracy. HIPPY: That's 'cause everything is!
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the chicks there are HOT.
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Oh that's right. I went there. And by-and-by, were there any people running into the towers to save people? Of course there was. Did the police and firefighters tell everyone else to get away? Of course they did. Why? Because that's their job ...WHICH-THEY-GET-PAID-FOR!!!
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You're tone was just pissing me off, that's all. Do not take offense. You have the word 'monkey' in your name, that's fine, just don't fuck me off again with your attitude toward other TB'ers. This is a World Trade Center TB, not a Supes TB, so it's a clean slate. I still don't believe Stone should have made this, but I suppose SOMEONE was going to make it.
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I mean, unless I see a movie in which people talk about explosions on all levels of the building, and firefighters walk into the lobby to find bodies all over and that there have been detonations at the ground floor... Until I see a movie where they portray how IMPOSSIBLE it is, by the word of every reputable architect, demolitionist, and engineer in the business, that a building that tall would fall that way just because of some airplane fuel-- Especially when this has happened before and didn't lead to the same results even ONCE-- Especially when Tower 7 wasn't even hit by a plane-- Especially when a Bush was in charge of security and shut down the building for a couple days prior to that week-- Especially when certain people were selling all their stock in the airlines and insurance policies were taken out on the buildings just prior to 9/11... Well, all these coincidences and disputes and questions are not being addressed in this movie, most likely. Instead we're going to get a "tug at the heartstrings" re-telling of the official version. If he doesn't explore the dirty secrets, then this isn't the Oliver Stone I know and love.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCggC5b5vRU&search=world%20trade%20centre
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"Until I see a movie where they portray how IMPOSSIBLE it is, by the word of every reputable architect, demolitionist, and engineer in the business, that a building that tall would fall that way" ...... how about you name a few? One? Didn't you get the latest memo? All of the 'reputable' people are part of the conspiracy!
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"Paramount has sued 28-year-old experimental filmmaker Chris Moukarbel for using excerpts from the screenplay of Oliver Stone's upcoming World Trade Center to create a 12-minute film, featuring Yale University student actors, and posting it on his website, the Washington Post reported today. The lawsuit says in part, "Large numbers of people will see the Moukarbel Film first for free and determine, based on this poor-quality copy, that they do not want to pay to see the remainder of the WTC Film at a theater when it is released."
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Obviously the american public is still comfortable with their government, and the government knows full well that when the public gets too uncomfortable with their gov't then they tear it down through revolution ... as seen through thousands of years of cultural evolution. Maybe you conspiracy nuts are right, then maybe again you're wrong. The truth is that a lot of people are dying, and it's very sad. The truth is we aren't living in 1984 yet... but the questions we really have to ask is when we are living in 1984 will we recognize it? Has Orwell's vision of a totalitarianist future become now? Hell no... I do what I want, when i want, wherever I want with respect everyone elses privacy, safety, and space. When they take away that kind of freedom then it's time to get worried. Conspiracy or no..... that's not the point. It's how can we help society grow, and stop people from dying.
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come on. Of course they're all about money. Interesting article too. Wonder if his "experimental" film was to see what Paramount would do to him for actually filmming an unreleased film from a major studio. I expect a riveting documentary to come from this...for which it will be released in Sundance, pick up a distributor, eventually play at an arthouse theatre in a major metropolitan area, force me to pay 10$ and in the end recoup the money for the poor soul who got sued by the big meany corporation. So, in the end, this is a good thing for this guy.
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IF there really was an Iceland! WAKE UP PEOPLE! And those so-called hot 'Icelandic' girls? Oh, sure, you think they're hot . . . until you find out they are either super-advanced robots programmed to suck out your vital manly juices, or really pretty guys. But still! And Bjork? There is no Bjork. Advanced artificial intelligence and holograms. She's all done with the holograms! Everybody know you can't build a building as tall as the World Trade Center, and, if you could, IT COULD NEVER BE HIT BY A PLANE!! Because they would be too tall. Isn't that obvious? What's wrong with you people? Am I THE ONLY ONE WHO CAN SEE THE TRUTH? Additionally, Harry Knowles is not one fat guy but an entire family of red-headed midgets in a suit specially created for them by Rick Baker. That explains a lot, doesn't it?
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life in the states, I would take issue with a lot of your points about the US, and your assertion that you aren't anti-american. I think there is a certain amount of Canadian jingoism that borders on it. I could hear your longing to bring up ridiculous logging disputes that no one in the states has heard of except loggers. On this point I think the americans have been the more sensible bunch not to view haggling over lumber prices as an assault on their national identity. The supremacy of the metric system is lost on the average person, who is never going to need to convert inches into miles, and Fahrenheit kicks Celcius' ass big time. Personally I think it is cool when I hear English people refer to weight in "stone". The difference makes them more interesting. I have heard from europeans who say that when they travel to the UK they find it charming that the distances are in miles and such because it is part of what makes it the UK for them. Personally I am convinced that if the US had switched to metric long ago then Canada would still be using the Imperial system and damned proud of it. I really don't like how you treat american "exceptionalism" as a dirty word, I like the independent streak of the US and I think it is one of america's more attractive features. If america wasn't willing to swim against the current (and the UN) then the bosnian genocide never would have been curtailed. Futhermore, I can't believe you are going to suggest that american football is wimpier than soccer. As a hockey fan I can't possibly watch soccer and not notice that no one is hitting or checking. I get bored silly watching soccer as there is so little of what I consider action. Passing that gigantic ball takes ages, breakaways are slow as hell, & goalies have eons to react to a shot on goal, the only reason anyone scores is because the goal is the size of New Hampshire. Compared to hockey, every sport looks slow and wimpy except maybe rugby, roller derby, and lucha libre. Football at least has hitting, there is a reason soccer players don't need helmets. Lastly, it is entirely within the Geneva Convention to dub a terrorist an enemy combabtant rather than a POW or criminal. It makes sense anyway, as a terrorist isn't really a soldier and they are much worse than a criminal. They clearly don't deserve to be accorded the same rights and privileges as either of the two classifications, and the GC doesn't require them to be classified as either. The GC was designed to protect citizens and soldiers, not saboteurs, maniacs, and members of nationless psychotics.
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......will we all get some cool "nWo" black and white t-shirts, and watch Bush enter the SOTU speech with "Voodoo Chile" as his theme music, Teemu13?
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Basically to boil down what you said... Cory849: 'I personally don't hate Americans but here's a bunch of reasons why people hate americans. Don't get me wrong though, I don't hate americans... just saying you know'.......
lol This is why people hate americans... cause they elect a stupid president, go to war for the wrong reasons, their inability to seperate church from state, corporate monsters, supplying arms to warlord countries, the war on drugs and their ignorance of international law. That's all ... no one hates them because of football or ignoring soccer, lumber, or ego.
People dont like americans just because of their general ignorance of everything logical and sane in a supposed democratic capitalist society. That's why I'm glad to be Canadian. I'm proud to know that america will take care of us in a war situation created by them, and scared at the same time for the nuclear fall-out that will hit us if america does get into a large scale war situation. Of course, Canadians are in Afghanistan... and why doesn't everyone hate us? Simple, cause we have maple syrup, hockey, snow, igloos, lots of natural resources, talented artists, actors, comedians, no nuclear arms, no death penalty, no war on drugs, few corporate monsters not already spilled over from the states, a relaxed drinking age, better gun control, excellent health care... BUT ABOVE ALL we treat other cultures with respect, let them into our country, and pride ourself explicitly as a multicultural nation. plus our anthem rocks. -
Also, where is this Canada place I keep hearing about?
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Unfortunately, I also agree about the idea that many Canadians look down on their neighbors to the south. This is a widespread phenomenon that has grown tremendously since the war in Irak has begun. Of course, it goes both ways and Canadians are viewed as some kind of pussies or, worse, traitors by Americans for saying no to the coalition of the willing (funny, that). Still, I've heard that story about American kids travelling abroad being recommended to sow a maple leaf on their backpack about a thousand times, but I've yet to hear of a reverse situation. I'm afraid there's a time when a Canadian living in the US for a long time stops being a Canadian living in the US for a long time and becomes simply an American. At heart, if not on paper.
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Jews.
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WTF? Being critical of the war in Iraq makes you a traitor to your country because people have died there? Suggesting that they might not have had to die or that they may not have died for a good reason is disrespectful? The government is not the army. At the highest level, the army is under orders, it doesn't make its own orders up. If anything, when the government sends soldiers somewhere and they get killed, that means that you have to examine what the government is doing even more closely than you did before. They'd better have a really, really good reason for sending them in, and a really, really good plan for what they are doing there (start to finish), otherwise those men and women are just being treated like garbage. Of course soldiers die in action. Yes, they do know that when they sign up. However, it's not their job to die. They rely on good command, good planning and good strategy. Soldiers' deaths should highlight any problems there are and force us to fix them, not be used to make those problems sacrosanct and quash debate.
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...by not just wallowing in victimhood and DOING something. DOING something, unlike what Canada and the rest of the UN scumbags (you know the UN--when they're not ignoring genocide they're raping little kids...oh, but we never hear about that on this site, only about accusations against US soldiers actions in the heat of war) (which we are investigating)...where was I?...the UN...yeah)want to do. See, any ACTION taken against the Taliban would be criticized by those who don't want action taken. There is a group of liberals, very vocal here on AICN, who simply wait for someone to do something about the horrors in this world so they can get on their moral high horse and BITCH about it. Because, indeed, the US and individuals under the US flag HAVE done awful things, and they need to be punished for those actions. Oddly enough, they usually ARE punished for it (but then, in all the wailing about Abu Grahbe you rarely hear people mentioning the JAILTIME served by those found guilty of abuse). See, kids, it's not that we're pure--we're as dirty as YOU all would be if you got off your asses and actually got yourselves dirty in the affairs of the planet Earth. No one, no liberal, was praising the Taliban pre-9-11. The Taliban were scum, misogynists and murderers, defilers and destroyers, awful, awful creatures...until the US actually DOES something about them. See, this is why war sucks--because there is no such thing as war without innocent deaths. But what was the alternative in Afghanistan? Where were all the liberals crying about women's rights and thuggish hardcore religionists when help was needed? Answer: The same place they were when Bill Clinton made sure the word "genocide" was purged from certain UN studies of a certain situation in Africa, because if that word was used it would automatically trigger certain US involvement in the area, and the wonderful liberal Mr, Bill didn't want to do that. Just like he didn't even visit the WTC bombing site. Libs want to just talk and that way they can sulk about being frustrated and having no available actions to take, because those actions would result in innocent blood being spilled. Well, yes, you're right...and while you were fretting, hundreds of thousands died in Iraq due to UN restrictions while Saddam stayed fat and happy. Thrity thousand Iraqi civilians have died in the time that two, three, four times that number would have died under the continued embargo, so what do the libs do NOW? They revize the numbers! "The embargo wasn't THAT bad!" they say NOW, after decisive action has been taken. When all you are is a bitchy contrarian who is just sitting on the sidelines waiting to attack the poor bastard who says "You know what? This has to be done before it gets even worse" you have a very small soul. You'd rather more thousands starve, suffer and die so you can sleep in the comfort of your phony liberal "caring" than be the one who says "Yep, I condone actions which killed some innocents...but I would do it again to stop more deaths." Because that would make you less than perfect. Oh, and Oliver Stone could have been one of the great moviemakers except he has no discipline and, I have it on good authority, is a shit to his crews.
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You're a generalizing, jingoistic, arrogant, ignorant, hypocritical (I bet half your DVDs are American films) mother fucking piece of moose shit. The health care in Canada may be free, but it ain't excellent. Otherwise, why would so many Canadians come to the States to see doctors because of excessively long waits to see specialists? Ah, whatever, why bother. You give REAL Canadians a bad name.
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Nobody reads posts longer than five lines long. Just thought you should know. But hey, I'm sure it felt good to get off your chest.
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Considering there are comments in this very thread on longer posts, I'd say you're wrong. But hey, I'm sure it felt good to project. ;)
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Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Thanks! If you need any more posting templates, let me know.
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I can almost feel the ulcers growing in zfisk/homewrecker's stomach from being forced to tone down the usual homophobic racist horseshit to avoid further banning. Now he's trying -- feebly -- to get the same message across by quoting other people, mostly out of context. I also love his latest post, supposedly an excerpt from an "article", but he either fabricated it himself, or is too afraid to post its source for fear of a storm of derisive laughter from everyone else who has at least half a brain. Do not attempt to debate me on this, zfisk/homewrecker, for I am DocPazuzu, bitch.
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I know some drug dealers in LA. One grow great mushrooms. He used to deliver them to mr stone on a REGULAR basis. Sometimes they would be delivered alongside some cocaine, sometimes to the titty bar.
Oliver Stone is alot of things. A mavrick willing to tell a large american audience some fucked up shit. A inovator who brought a wide variety of cinematographic elements to big time hollywood features. He also gave woody his opus role.
One thing he is not, is a patriot. Many innocent and brave people died because of the world trade center, we still hear of Bush's reprecusions causing death of the innocent today. How has all this affected the filmmaker? Is he intrested in these people, their stories? Did he care?
No one on this site or the rest of the fuckng internet knows these these anwsers.
I know that strippers and coke cost a lot of money. I know that I don't know any strip club regulars who give enough of a fuck about jonny the dead fireman to make a movie about it. I know Alexander sucked. Maby this will put an old pervert rep back on top. I know I'd rather buy a lap dance for Oliver Stone than buy a ticket for his lame movie.
mingle amongst yourselves -
for healthcare are the extremely wealthy. If you think that only the wealthy should be entitled to good health care then by all means stew in your facist ultra-capitalistic ideologies. Canada is a little more socialistic and because of that there is more equal opportunity for everyone in this great country to access the health care, and dying doesn't have to happen because they dont have the money... I'd rather have long wait lines, than watching a poor child dying of some cancerous disease take the backseat to a white-collar criminal who smoked too many cigars when he was raping the common man. So stick that up your american ass.
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1.) "Why do they hate us?" Because they are homicidal maniacs.
2.) "Can't we all get along, kumbaya, etc?" No. Their idea of peace is sawing off our heads.
3.) "Then what can we do about it?" Kill them first.
4.) "But not all Muslims are like that, you warmonger!" - No sh*t, Sherlock. That's why we don't nuke the Middle East.
5.) "War for Oil!" - Bullsh*t. I pay $3 a gallon. If it was a war for oil, it'd be free.
6.) "No WMDs! Bush Lied People Died!" - We found enough Sarin in Iraq to slaughter everyone on the planet multiple times over. The people of Halabja didn't simultaneously have heart attacks.
7.) "Pull the troops out now" - and Iraq will fall to terrorists. Democracy takes time, and requires protection. It's a gamble, but the payoff is huge. And losing would be worse than never going there at all. Can't cut and run now.
8.) "But everyone hates America now because we're so mean". - Y'know, I believe they'd hate us anyway. For example, Canada is full of pu*sies who won't fight for their own civilization. That hasn't stopped the terrorists from attacking them, has it? -
As a liberal fed up with the Kerrys and Gores representing the party, let me say that I applaud most of what you said. I still despise Bush and think he is deceitful, so it's just sad that the Democrats couldn't come up with a better alternative. And in recent years, their alternative has been bitching and offering no solutions. Not unlike the Republicans when Clinton was President. I honestly think Bush Derangement Syndrome is real and hope there are enough sane liberals left to combat the (non)policies of Howard Dean.
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So even in Canada the only people who can get good health care are the extremely wealthy who have the money to go to the US. What was your point again?
Socialism levels the playing field by making everyone equally miserable. It discourages people from reaching for the brass ring of great reward for great effort and turns them into a bunch of lethargic drones who only do the bare minimum to get by. Why work hard when you get the same benefits as the guy who doesn -
I've joined the Skunk County Militia comrade! Rest assured that I will protect my own freedom and liberty, so no need for you to visit any time soon...
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What exactly was my attitute in the SR TB? I thought it was a pretty happy and easy going talkback (unlike this one). Let me know what, specifically I said to incur your wrath. In future I will send you all my posts so that you can edit them to avoid offence. I also wouldn't have to bring it up in another TB if you had the good grace to answer people when they ask you a question, you ignorant ass-hat child.
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I appreciate what you wrote. And to Vanlingomungo, man I hope folks read posts longer than 5 posts long, cause' I poured my heart out earlier in this TB. But if it's as you say, then I DO feel better about getting some of that off my chest. Very therapeutic. Uh oh, I guess I better end now before I hit the dreaded 6th line phase. =)
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ZeroCorpse: from what I understand, this movie's focus is not about the surrounding events of that day. It's about 2 guys trapped in the rubble, their perspective, their story. -- zfisk/homewrecker: you're an idiot and we all know it. God help you, son.
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1) cause they elect a stupid president
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its friday and I dont think Im in the debate mood I was so this should be pretty slack. nevertheless: I am not anti-american. I am pro-american. I am on team USA. (much more than some of the very blind young liberals posting on here) Team USA protects my Canadian ass. Team USA has pushed positive agendas in the world over the last 50 years that are truly staggering. It doesnt get enough credit for this. Its also true that the US does do military heavy lifting for Canada. its not being magnanimous in doing so. Its a security thing, but, yeah, thanks for the army and the Monroe Doctrine. I am down with it. As for the soccer stuff - Im just pointing to american exceptionalism/isolationism. Dismiss it if you like. I dont much care. You like America being exceptionalist - okey dokey. I have lots I love about the US and lots of stuff bugs me in lots of countries. oh - and I didnt say football was perceived as being wussier than soccer. read again. I said it was perceived as being wussier than rugby. and yeah. Id put equal numbers american football players up against good rugby players any day. Even with the linebackers extra size, they'd get a bruising. heck - even the soccer players would probably just keep running until the American footballers were exhausted and then kick the shit out of them. Hockey, now...hockey is Canadian. and international. and rough, and exhausting. Yeah - you were right up there. Hockey rules. Good point.
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lets stop all the hate and increase the love. All I'll say is that you can tell the USA has a two horse system based on the 'you either stand for this or you stand for that' mentalitly demonstrated above. Lets try and find a moderate path huh people? Oh and Cory, I think you'll find 'ice hockey' was invented by the British (like most things) :-P
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You are an idealogue. A smart idealogue but an idealogue nonetheless. I dont care what you want to call Bush's failing - a lack of articulateness in public, a lack of intelligence, an inappropriate smirking childish cavalier disrespectful demeanor - you pick it. But if you cant see what all the fuss is about then you are being wilfully blind. He wasnt your best option - McCain was. or some other guy that didnt run because he knew George had it locked up. Like, oh, I dont know, JEB Bush. Who, as near as I can figure, didnt get to run because he was named Jeb instead of George. Now THAT is a pity of truly historic proportions. Dont tell me that in a nation of 200 million people that this guy was your best option. its just embarassing.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_hockey
I think its fair to say what I said based on this entry. Unless you also mean that AK-47 was invented by David the first time he hit Goliath with a sling shot. -
mostly British origins, although then played by British soldiers stationed in Canada. How about a truce and say hockey is 2/3 Brittish and 1/3 Canadian?
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I'll buy you a Kokanee to make up for it. Hmmm, taste the Sasquatch :-P
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and kokanee?? dear god man, Im originally from the maritimes. The only thing I would use kokanee for is maybe to give it to my girlfriend in case she ever needed to burn the skin off of a mugger's face!
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I won
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"George W. Bush: Coulda been worse...". ------ yeah. I used to think Al Gore could be worse. I hated that election. But I dont anymore. I long for the past 8 years with Al Gore now (or - much better - John McCain), because I under-estimated the importance of being articulate and empathetic and sincere and clever. Its an accident of history. George W. Bush was elected in an other era and then re-elected because he was the republican war time incumbent. Kerry still would have been much better. And for me it isnt about ideology or campaign promises. there's too much blur between the parties for me to worry about that. As a centrist guy - conservative on some things and liberal on others - I tend to hate all of them a little bit. But on the communications front this guy and the team he picked were not up to the task. Anyway, you continue to rise in my estimation by, once again, giving a well thought out response. Cheers.
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http://tinyurl.com/mtvm9
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http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200671,00.html
Ouch. Looks like even Propaganda Fox news can't ignore the 9/11 families wanting the truth behind 9/11, or the Jersey Girls in their new documentary 9/11 Press For Truth: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-330418413919565384&q=Press+for+Truth
Oh, and Saturday and Sunday in Los Angeles, big name celbrities, former CIA, millitary, 9/11 heroes/survivors, and a couple thousand concenred citizens will be seeing a screening of A Scanner Darkly and new 9/11 documentaries at: http://www.americanscholarssymposium.org/ -
How many of the American scholars at your upcoming symposium are structural engineers or demolitions experts?
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-330418413919565384&q=Press+for+Truth
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Alex Jones WAS the least respectable source that I had ever seen. Then Ashok0 suggested that I "crawl back inside Kerry's rectum." That was when I knew that there was indeed a lower form of life than Alex Jones. Hey - as long as the extreme right and the extreme left are both pissed off at me, I think Im doing just fine. :-)
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You can join my Milita if you want. Our motto can be: Defending a reasoned middle way, to the extreme! Although rations are slim, only kool-aid and Kokanee to drink...
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"For example, Canada is full of pu*sies who won't fight for their own civilization."
Umm, for the record, our soldiers happen to be fighting and dying in Afganistan right now in the war on terror. Not that you care. -
There are a LOT of really moronic Canadians and Americans on this talkback.
Thank God they don't represent the average Canadian and American! -
Brycemonkey: Gah. My eyes!!! It burns my EYES!!!-------- Riker33: You are officially a cheesehead. What? Oh. I thought this was the part of the talkback where we made ourselves feel superior by throwing around unsupported insults. My bad.
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We arent dumbfounded with glazed eyes. We are chill. Why? because the last guy that tried to got in the way of one of our prime ministers got throttled by that prime minister. Little known fact but Canadian Prime Ministers...Ninjas. All of them. (We are also chill because we are mostly stoned on BC pot. We are also distracted because we are trying to stop Brycemonkey from giving us his kokanee).
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Pockeybot don't need no steenkin' architects, demolitionists and structural engineers! Or, as he so succinctly put it in the last WTC talkback: "You got everyone from Charlie Sheen, director David Lynch, the lead singer of Blink 182, Richard Dreyfuss, and writers Erica Jong and Gore Vidal saying it was an inside job to Jeaneane Garafalo, Harry Belefonte, many people in journalism and hollywood...just in case people dont want to listen to politicians."
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1) yale, how do you think he got there? his family's rich. It's been noted that he was only an average student.. an average student for prez? come on! As for being a fighter pilot the guy 'gamed the system' He never spent one iota of time overseas defending his country. I'm not saying you should have chosen Kerry but I am saying a system that allows you to only choose from two people (gore doesn't count) is @#$@#ed up. In canada we have a representative government. I can choose between the new democratic party, liberals, conservatives, bloc quebecois, green party, canadian alliance, independents... the list goes on. Each member of parliament votes on matters with respect to their jurisdiction. We don't have an all powerful prime-ministre here. He/she can easily lose a vote of confidence within a year and be kicked out office just like that 2)he did go to war for the wrong reasons... he said iraq had wmds.. they found none there... then he accentuated his reasons that it was because there was a dictator and oppression. Okay that's fine... they may be in there for the right reasons but they went there with the wrong reasons. I disagree about their continued occupation but that's my opinion. The war isn't over and I can't say whether I'm right or wrong. Neither can you. All I know is an endless flow of bodies keep comming out of that country. Maybe 10 years down the road we'll know who was right. 3)yes church and state are heavily connected over there. But we're talking about America. It's made a lot of progress but look at the turmoil still surrounding gay marriage, abortion, and euthanasia... It is a constitutional law for its seperation in the u.s. but I would say though that christianity has an upper hand there...a little worse than in canada where we have seiks and all colours and religions sitting as members in parliament. 'God bless american' 'in god we trust'... it's all semantics of course, but to lie to yourself and say christianity isn't at the core of America while other religions are marginalized is ridiculous. 4)To go through the enormous history of all the arms supplied by america and the history of alliances they've had with african countries as well as private arms dealers from america have infilitrated that continent would be exhausting and taxing, but maybe you should take a course in war and politics in Africa, and see for yourself America's drastic effect on that continent. Although, it is not just America. Few examples, Somali dictator Siad Barre recieved arms from USSR, then by the U.S. from 1980-1990, and nearly 3/4's of his arms were supplied by the U.S. Especially during the Cold War both the Soviets, and the U.S. supplied arms to many factions all across Africa. They staged their own little war within a war you could say. To go into America's corporate monsters and their exploitation of children and people in third world countries, and their exploitation of their own people would be exhausting too. Suffice it to say, it exists, and America plays a large part. I dare you to tell me you dont have something in your house made in china, or an old pair of nike running shoes. Of Course, Canada contributes to this too, but not as much I would say. 5) The War on Drugs was your stupidest comment of them all. To @#$@ing believe that you think that the war on drugs is effective at all in any measurement in the least bit is a laughing stock. In canada we have safe injection sites, crack pipe programs, and revolutionary ways to stop the spread of HIV, and STDS... we are saving peoples lives who will do these drugs anyway no matter what we tell them. You on the other hand put people in jail forever who will never ever get a chance at rehabilitation, and contribute towards society's growth. 6) you mean countries that play lip-service to the Int. Law like the United States has? how hypocritical. 7)And yes i do not enjoy it that America can become the most powerful nation through a lot exploitation, and ignorance,... but as foucault would say knowledge is power, and the U.S. continues to learn from its mistakes. You dont get big without making big mistakes I guess. I dont hate the U.S. I was just pointing out some major problems. So next time don't piss in my face and tell me it's raining. Oh and about the health care thing... if you really believe that the 'brass iron reachers' health should be of more concern than those people who are marginalized and left to the wayside by society because of discrimination or other means then I feel sorry for you. We're not a socialist country in Canada, but we've learned that leaning slightly in that direction working towards 'the greatest good for the greatest number' works for us and for everyone.
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please watch Transportation Sec. Norman Mineta's testimony to the 9/11 Commission here...[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y&search=norman%20mineta ]] The thing that sticks out = Cheney knew about an incoming flight! What were the orders? If it was for a shoot down, why weren't the Pentagon, Capitol building and White House evacuated... What if the orders were to let the incoming aircraft hit?
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1) According to you they hate us because we elected an average student? I sort of doubt the rest of the world is that elitist. Do you think any dummy can fly the highly technical F-102? We have a system that only allows you to choose one of two people? That
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were to let the incoming aircraft hit? .... If you conspiracy theory retards actually listened to the testimony you wouldn't ask such idiotic questions. The ORDER was for a large cheese pizza, extra sauce.
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well - if GWB can then thats evidence that it must be a lot easier than it looks. ;-)
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uncle, whatever. I am still waiting for you to tell me what I did wrong in the other TB but since you don't check this site for hours at a time it's like having an argument by post. i.e. slightly more boring than chess by post. OK Peace. Oh and BTW pawn to king four.
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Here's hoping that in the afterlife, Zarqawi is greated by 72 AICN talkbackers. You guys are pathetic.
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You're one of us now, you smug little fuck stick. :-)
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You're just in a combative mood. I'm done with you. You gave me nothing to substantiate yourself as a clear-headed person that is able to look at your own nations faults objectively. If you want to feel superior as an american to every other country, and look positively on what you think is a justified war and your country's violent history... if that gives you confidence then have at it. Let me leave you with one quote though from Einstein "He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." If you understand what he's saying...Just answer one thing... can you honestly say that Canada has a more violent history than America? That's why people hate america... its violence.
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Quote Einstein if you want to impress me about physics. When it came to politics he was about as astute as the Dixie Chicks. This discussion is not about the laundry list of American faults. We have plenty, like many other nations. It
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"can you honestly say that Canada has a more violent history than America?" ---> No, it hasn't. But that's like comparing apples and oranges. Is France or Britain's history as violent as Americas? IS Mexicos? Is Argentinas? Canada took a different path than the US. It has about 1/10th the population of the US and thus is less of a world power than the US. Canada essentially downsized its military after the Korean War because it knew it didn't need to have a large military because of its proximity to the US. Many of Canada's social programs are easier for Canada to implement and maintain because its a filthy rich country with a small population. Its not impossible for the US to have universal health care, which I want, but it's not easy either. Does the world really hate America for its violence as you stated? Do they hate us for our Civil War? What about the Spanish-American War? Doubtful, it's probably the post-WWII conflicts that the US has been involved in. Not Korea. Definitely Vietnam could be seen that way. Selling arms to "allies" to fight enemies probably doesn't help. The Gulf War? No, even Canada supported that. Iraq War? Hellz yes. So really, the world is only pissed at US violence in Vietnam and the Iraq War and maybe b/c we sell arms to dubious people. It's more our recent history than our entire history then. But, wait a sec, Austrailia has been involved with every US conflict since the end of WWII. They even fought in the 'Nam. Does the world hate the Austrialians? Nope. Well, maybe the Kiwis do. France is the reason for the Vietnam conflict and they had a bloody war in Algeria. Does the world hate them? Not really, some do. Point is Wolack that there's good and bad in each nation. America's role as the dominant power was thrust upon it after the Europeans destroyed themselves. The Soviets collapsed and now it's just the US. Personally, I don't like our role as "world police." I'm in favor of a return to ;pre-1941 isolationism. However, the US can often be a good stabilizing force, much like the British Empire in its heyday. But I'd rather us Americans stick to ourselves and not bother others like our Founding Fathers intended. They'd be rolling in their graves they knew Americans were dying in Iraq.
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I made several very clear and concise statements about why other people from other nations feel alienated by The U.S. in the world. I know canadians feel alienated by the U.S.'s war on drugs. I know Africa was alienated by the arms it gave warlords. I know a lot of countries dont like how you dont listen to international law, but this is all my opinion against your opinion. NEITHER OF US CAN TALK IN ABSOLUTES ABOUT WHO IS RIGHT AND WHO IS WRONG... I'm not saying I'm more right than you. I'm saying I have very valid points and I brought up a lot of points in history that you completely snuffed off ... like how america helped to destroy africa ALONG WITH THE USSR... noo but you bring up communism as an excuse for that... your argument is,... would you rather the ussr just supplied the warlords with arms and took the world over with communism... that's the problem with america. It is always looking for a well 'WOULD YOU RATHER' absolutist and circular logical statement. Do you even know who supplied arms first to the African continent? FACT: The U.S. contributed to Africa's suffering a big deal. That is fact. OPINION: My opinion is that I would have rather seen the U.S. take the high road and not send arms to warlord countries. They should have looked ahead to the disasters that would have occured. We'll never know if that would have changed the outcome of the cold war. All I know is the U.S. has too much of a mentality of 'well they hit us, we gotta hit back, we cant talk this out... and would you rather (some completely unsubstantiated claim ie commmunism takes over, Terrorism takes over) that happen' philosophy,.... Personally, I know a lot about how the War on Drugs is failing in the U.S. and how it continues to fail... I wrote my thesis on it. As long as they continue to have a war on it it will still be a problem in the U.S. Canada thinks along the lines of rehabilitation, saving lives and reducing HIV infection through sharing needles by needle exchange programs, and drug courts. They know sending these people to jail isn't the answer. Your comments about raising the comfort of living in 3rd world countries is ridiculous... by giving them the means with slave work that can barely maintain their existence. Does it matter to you that the U.S. is giving up on its capitalist ideologies to trade with Communist countries that treat the workers like shit. Did you know America has been doing what your suggesting with Columbia... encouraging the farmers to continue to farm there, and try to raise their standard of living but at the same time turning their backs on the farming products these farmers are trying to export to america. Farming doesn't work in Columbia. The few farmers that are farming there can barely salvage a living. Most of them dont have roofs over their houses. The U.S. has made it fucking impossible for them to export their produce, and gains to the U.S. The only way they know how to survive right now is through exporting cocaine. Anyway, I am rambling... what my point is is that some points I brought up were fact, and the rest was my opinion... same goes for you, ... If you stop waving your flag around for a second you might actually be able to set it down, and see the truth for yourself.
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Please respond friend. Anyways, about the Africa thing, that can't be thrown entirely on America's lap my friend. Remember, it was the Europeans who colonized it in the first place. Also, many other countries sold their arms to African warlords. Doesn't excuse the US' role, but just wanted to point out that many others have shit on their shoes.
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You're right Thornhill about Australia... Maybe it's because australia is just so small and not enough of a presence in these conflicts. You're right about British colonization. If anything the world should be resentful towards the U.K. for the amount of damage they've done to the world, not the U.S. But the U.S. has taken the place of I'm not going to say 'Empire' but it's beginning to feel like it. I think you're right on the money about the world police idea too. Of course, many argue that if the U.S. didn't go into Iraq, or Afghan, or Vietnam.... etc then terror and tyranny would prevail because the u.n. won't do anything. Which is very true. The U.N. has become a huge beaurocracy of stagnation. I wish it could be what it intended, but it ignores all of its' own principles. That's not to say that if Iraq turned into another Nazi Germany that international tribunals would just idely sit by. Who knows. I don't hate america... I was just trying to figure out why a lot of people in other countries have a general feeling of distaste for America and why the conception is that its better to go backpacking in europe with a canadian flag on your backpack than an american one. I mean Canadians are in Afghanistan,... we have recently been the subject of a terror attack in Toronto, but I'd still prefer to wear the canadian flag in europe for safety reasons. All boiled down I think people like to think things should be decided collaboratively, rather than by one. Some might think its totalitarianism on a globosphere to see the U.S. go anywhere on its own without lengthy consideration to international law. Conversely, int. law hasn't shown to be working. There's a lot not to like about the U.S. but definately a hell of a lot to like; their space program, their ingenuity, technology, innovation, education, art, culture, music, writing, .. the list goes on.. maybe people are just jealous and resentful that this country is the one making all the decisions in the world. Seriously, I dont know. Maybe I was wrong to make a list on why other countries have trouble with the U.S.'s foreign policies and why they might hate the U.S., Seriously, I have no idea. I can't even remember how this whole argument started with Cantankerous... I'm done on this thread. I stand by my points and he stands by his.
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No kidding wolack22. I hope that thesis of yours was a little more focused than your performance in this sorry discussion. What you did was made a bunch of questionable statements about why people from other nations feel alienated by The U.S.
My primary response was -
Where THE ZONE Go???
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fool...I'm sorry but you were owned in the argument. If you dont want to admit it that's fine. All i heard was a bunch of facist absolutest statements from you about communism, tyrrany, and pacifism... GO BACK TO THE FUCKIN MCARTHY ERA YOU FOOL! you sound like a fucking idiot. you didn't address any of my points about the hypocrisy of america. Why is america dealing with communist nations on one hand, but opposing it in the next? Why stand up for some principles but not for others? You're the one rambling my friend. Dammit im sick of replying to you, but when you fucking use a quote I used in simply just trying to wave a white flag and stop this argument you act like a child. You just want the last word... Ill let you have it... GO FOR IT! IT'S ALL YOURS! Of course the american must have the last word. It's in his nature.
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... when a participant in an argument grades their own performance and then proclaims themselves the winner. Can I assume that the reason you
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If you don't think I did, you obviously didn't read what I wrote. I also noticed that among all your comments I read you paid little attention to the substance and history I devoted to my comments and just attacked my statements. Further, you gave no substance to your statements. You basically boil it down to well we're not the only country who's made these mistakes, so what's your point? The point is your the not the only country who's made these mistakes, but the only one powerful enough to change it up and make the world a better place. I cited historical accounts of the states arming warlords, (hell their still doing it today) furthering the destruction of 3rd world countries ,... i cited specific countries and warlords.. i cited why the U.S.'s war on drugs has failed (smoking a joint is a victimless crime, the war on drugs existence perpetuates the existence of cartels, it has been proved ineffective through millions upon millions of dollars in its budget, People still do drugs, they will always do drugs... alcohol is not stigmatized even though marijuana is much less harmful, its criminalization increases its profit and violence, the amount of money to put offenders who do drugs behind bars and solely for drug offences has amounted to over billions and billions of dollars of american tax payer money who will just get out and do it again. Jail doesn't work, rehabilitation works... look at the research. needle exchange saves lives, the fbi wasting its time to extradite marc emery from canada for selling some seeds for FUCKING MARIJUANA rather than going out and catching terrorists has alienated a lot of canadians. Have you ever seen anyone violent on marijuana? How many people have you seen rape people, kill people, and butcher people on alcohol? Now compare. Illegal drugs are far less toxic than legal ones. Its a hypocrisy. HERE's WHAT YOU NEED TO UNDERSTAND: DRUG ADDICTION IS NOT A CRIMINAL ISSUE IT IS A PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE. safe injection sites, needle exchanges, and rehab programs rather than jail prevent the spread of hiv, and hepatitis. The research has shown that those on drugs after they get out of jail without any rehabilitaiton go out and continue to use. The racism inherent in those targeted by drug enforcement... why is it always poor black people you see on cops getting busted, why not the corporate white collar coke addicts. I just dont understand your statement that we should just throw them all in jail through the revolving door of the legal system. i'm surprised you haven't picked up a newspaper or watched a special to find this out for youself. Everyone knows this, and those who dont obviously have their head in the sand. I mean if you really think george bush is a top 'yale fighter pilot' (who never went to war, and got into yale because of his family where he only obtained mediocre grades) and is a great president then you really are delusional and I have to end this argument now. Something about you is getting under my skin... you really are cantankerous.
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Cheesehead? Isn't that someone from Wisconsin? I'm from Ontario...but I do like cheese.
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Too soon.
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Wow, this is awesome! Front page has shit from 2 years ago! WTG!
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I can't wait for it to come out in theaters. I hope that early reviews of Casino Royale are posted soon too!
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