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WORLD TRADE CENTER Trailer On Apple.com!!
Hi, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab...
This looks like Oliver Stone has stepped up and made something totally different than UNITED 93, but also totally different from the films he’s been making, or any films he’s ever made before. It looks more like a conventional Hollywood movie than the one Paul Greengrass made, but I also think Stone’s in a position where he has to remind people that he can simply tell a good story well. For a long time, Oliver’s pushed his own style in different ways, to varying effect, and his last film was the mostly-lame ALEXANDER. He’s got to knock this one out of the ballpark. If he does, he buys himself an extension on his bankable career. If he doesn’t, then he will have altered his style for no reason.
How’s it looking to you?
"Moriarty" out.
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I find it very hard to take Cage seriously these days though. I hope he proves me wrong.
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Whose movies have worsened over time. But the trailer for this looks promising and I'm intrigued about a Stone film for the first time in years.
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Even the trailer was getting me choked up.
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Didn't know whether I wanted to see this or not, but the trailer brings all those emotions back. Quite powerful. I still think i"ts too soon for this though.
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United93 was a powerful film that didn't need CGI or Hollywood names. It worked due to the claustraphobia and the inbuilt power of the day we all remember. This trailer seems to "Hollywood". Nicolas Cage, whom I like, just seems to make it more about names than the horror of that day. Greengrass' film was full of understated class, this seems overblown and overly melodramatic. With 9/11 so fresh in our memories do we need melodrama? I don't think so.
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Not at all what I was expecting. Looks like a TV movie...but...well...yeah I dunno.
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...who makes a Brokeback style mashup trailer for this one.
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yeah this looks pretty good. Usually I skip this "disaster movie" kind of fare but from the looks of the trailer Stone has approached the subject matter very tastefully and it just shows. It does come off as a bit too glossy though, what with the raw footage all still fresh in our minds...
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imho
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Powerful stuff, those images are hard to forget.
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But regarding this, I don't know, it kinda feels like those John Wayne WWII flicks you see where everything is just too, I don't know, too Hollywood. I just don't see what the point of something like this is when there are plenty of good documentries out there. (Like the one that aired on CBS) There are thousands more docs that can be made of stories from people that experienced this first hand. I hate to say it, but it is indeed "too soon". You don't need to gloss it up like this. You have real people available. The same goes for the School Hostage flick Grazer is producing. (Which should not be made in the first place.) Something is just disturbing about Hollywood making a buck, or a few hundred million of them off something as tragic as these events.
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but so did the trailer for Alexander! I'm a sucker, so I'll probably end up seeing it...
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...in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1....
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This trailer looks like what I was afraid United 93 was going to be; a safe, emotionally manipulative star vehicle that yanks at the heartstrings until you cry for mercy. One long list of cliches.
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This film looks really good. There are so many stories from that day, there are so many stories every day but that day has a unified theme, that demand exploration. If it wasn't this it'd be a remake of I Dream Of Jeannie starring Jimmy Fallon and Britney Spears so I'd prefer it be something that'll make me emote.
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ugh...its just wrong that they keep making these movies. but if one HAS to compare it to 93...I say, based on the trailer 93 was better because it wasn't your standard hollywood flick. it was very clinical and didn't deliberately pull at your heart strings with overacted grandiose moments. WTC has hollywood written all over it. Shame Hollywood...Shame.
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IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!! IT'S ALL OUR FAULT!!
Oh... waitaminute... it's NOT our fault...
Thought I was a dumb-f*ck liberal there for a second!! -
No one wants YOUR interpretation of 9-11. That's what Fox News is for.
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United 93 was so much easier to swallow, emotionally. Maybe it was the fact that it didn't use "bankable" actors, and just didn't feel Hollywood-y in any sense. I haven't sorted through my feelings enough to figure out why, but this trailer made me feel dirty.
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It said "The World Saw Evil That Day", not "The World Saw Evil Men That Day." Even if there are people who actually don't believe in the evil of human beings, I'm sure just about every sane, rational human being would agree that the action taken of flying a jet liner into a building in order to kill as many innocent civlians as possible is an evil act, no matter what rationale is used.
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Im glad this doesnt resemble United 93 in style. United 93 was lame. The television movie was way better. 911 deserves big production not small grainy films. Im sure there are more stories to be told. Like the asian port authority cop who surved a fall from a number of floors with his dog. Wheres his movie? Or The cop who went on to sing the star bangled banner at yankee stadium.
There was also a fire company (Lucky Number 7) who were the first to go into the buildings and didnt lose a single man. Cant wait to see that movie. Numerous stories that day. This cant be the last 911 movie to be made nor the best.
Cant wait to see it. -
I hate that 'Courage" shit. And two men saw something different, huh?
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...without turning into Ghost Rider first?
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In the dictionary. It means fucked up depravity. Are you seriously arguing semantics over this? What happened that day was EVIL. You don't have to be religious to recognize evil in the world. Human beings are clearly capable of evil, and I don't know many people who would argue that 9/11 wasn't an evil act.
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but you gotta admit. People throw the word "evil" around WAY too fucking much.
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Not entirely. I'm in no shape or form a religious fundamentalist, but I do believe in man's capacity, and above all, will to do evil as much as I believe in man's capacity and will to do good. Both imply choices, and if you break them down into small enough particles, those choices will cease to mean anything. Again, whether you believe in man's evil or not, there is no other way to describe things such as slavery, the Holocaust, the Armenian genocide, Josef Stalin's purges and terrorism than evil -- even if one does go into detail about the historical and sociocultural circumstances surrounding those things and attempts to exhonorate each and every participant.
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The problem is, KungFu, that people don't use the word "evil" in that context very often. Its always used as a way to convince people that we are always good..its the other guy that's evil Its used in propaganda WAY too much. Despite its clinical definition, its used as a political feel good term too often.
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It almost had me in tears, and I'm a hard man.
Interesting though. -
True, it's a blatant case of devaluing a word's meaning when people like Ann Coulter call liberals "evil", just as much as when certain liberals call conservatives "nazis".
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The English language is butchered everyday by people using incorrect words. If the world didn't see EVIL on 9/11, what did we see? A very, very, very bad thing? I don't care what you feel about Fallwell, Robertson, Bush, or anybody else using the word. That was EVIL shit that day, and an entirely appropriate word to describe it.
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is what this film should be called. Labeling the antagonist as 'evil' and trying to pick a fight. Send Stone to the front lines and have him film some real time shit if he wants to film a 'war' movie about terrorism. Herzog style, up close and personal. He could use 'real Arabs' as Taliban suicides and stage real suicide bombings! And a war using real soldiers and ammo! But with more misplaced sentimentality folks! Cut! OK, lets do that again. We need some more extras... It'll be ok, they were non union. What am I talking about? I must be high.
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Then the Iraq War is extremely evil.
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I see very very bad, I don't see evil. I don't use the word evil because its a very dangerous word and is often used by the self-righteous. and yes, we all like to think of ourselves as good people, but guess what...the terrorists think they're doing good too. So I choose not to play the righteousness card. Accept the fact that the word evil is misused harshly. 9/11 is a tragedy, not because evil was done to us, but because two cultures who are both convinced that they are on god's/allah's side can't get along and see past their righteousness and start helping each other instead of hurting.
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this one shouldnt have any known actors in it. he'll probably ruin Ghost Rider for me too.
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Worst actor ever!!!!
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is that even if the film is good, it won't be able to make me feel how i did seeing the footage on the news on September 11th, there seems to be something very strange about watching people acting this stuff. The shot where they are in the building and the ceiling is shaking, I don't know it just feels fake. Like I can imagine the director saying "and now the planes hit. Action!". Does anyone know what I mean? I have no problen with real events being used for the basis of a film, and the story of the school seige that was announced yesterday I think will make a really powerful one, it's just I think I've seen too much actual footage for this to be emotionally effective. I think it will be far more powerful to future generations who didn't live through it. The final shot of the tower of smoke was great though.
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What's that Hollywood? 9/11 = critic proof? Nope.
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If you're going to crash a plane and kill everyone on board, why take the time to cut the throats of, or stab, some of the passengers? Same thing with the nazis -- killing untermenschen wasn't always enough. On countless occasions they did things like set fire to children in front of their parents and torture people in other unspeakable ways. Even if you think you're "good" and killing either "enemies of God" or stamping out "human pests", the sadism and wanton cruelty can't be explained as anything other than sheer evil.
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LOL!!! You shit-sucking liberal RE-tards can't even allow yourself to believe that evil exists.
Damn you guys are some amazing pieces of evolution. -
Speaking of generalizations and devaluing words...
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called "Mister" thank you very much"
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That phrase was supposed to be, "it's true, most evil people think they're doing good". Feel they're bringing justice to a chaotic world or something to that effect by killing or taking over a place.
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I can't believe they just used that old thing.
Next, Nic Cage should take some chalk, draw a line on the ground, and say, "Anyone willing to fight for truth, justice, and the American way, cross this line." -
That's why "liberal RE-tards" don't use it as often as right-wing nutjobs. Hey tsw, go back to your black and white world you call reality.
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yeah I just want to say that the evil discussion is really great. Its not everyday you hear people really talking it out civilized here on the talkback. Also, special kudos to VooDooV for that last post.
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then you can pretty much call ALL religion evil. The sheer amount of atrocity and stupidity committed in the name of a deity more than justifies the labeling of religion as evil in that case.
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That trailer felt really cheesy to me. There were moments where I expected Godzilla to show up. I have a feeling Alexander will look like a Best Picture winner in comparison to this movie
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It's extremely naive and irresponsible to think that the United States is incapable of such evil, which is a belief held by all who ridicule those who question the events of 9/11. Tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed by U.S. forces as a direct result of 9/11 and the "War on Terror." Millions of Americans watch TV and go to the movies while they see evil every day. No movies about that yet, though.
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I haven't been much of a fan of Stone's work since "JFK", but this looks promising. More straightforward filmmaking? God, we can only hope so with this subject matter. Please, Ollie, don't fuck this up.
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Evil doesn't imply anything. Human beings are capable of great good and some of the worst atrocities history has ever recorded. To believe that evil exists is to acknowledge that human beings have a very base, animalistic nature, and that some people lack the willpower or desire to control that nature. Civilization plays a huge role in that control. If (or when) civilization breaks down, you will see that evil does exist in this world.
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It's still evil which is primarily a religious term. At least it originates from religion.
And who was it on here who called the mass killing of innocents evil? Does that also apply for the innocents who lost their lives in Afghanistan and Iraq or were the actions that lead to those deaths good?
I'd love to know how many soldiers involved in the war are religious. It might suggest that the use of 'evil acts' as a label is simply a call to arms for every bible bashing nut to pick up a rifle and go to war. -
I didn't mean to overgeneralize, but I just wish people would see that things aren't black and white. History is full of religion-based atrocities and yet people still follow blindly. I have no problem with Faith...but religion is what is dangerous.
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You know, I watched this trailer last night and I had this strange feeling that this movie might do really well at the Box Office. Say, as opposed to "Flight 93" which had a very modest performance despite the critical acclaim. I wonder if it will be because it's supposed to provide a central character focus / story of survival.
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...I'll be the first not to see this. Wonder if they'll have a fourm they have to take down like they did with United due to people posting the truth.
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Anyone over the age of twelve should realize the world is far more complex than that. In most movies you have the good guys vs the bad guys. But honestly things are rarely that simple.
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First the Pentagon security video gets released and now this trailer. I'm surprised they are not here yet. Maybe they're running late.
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So is good. So is bad. But I noticed that you still used the term, "Its not really evil, just very, very, very bad." Well, okay, voodoo, lets play semantics. If there is a difference, in your view, between bad and evil, what is it? Evil is just totally bad? The fact is, you, and those like you, spend far too much time analyzing a person's words and not enough time judging their actions. Those hijackers were evil. They butchered innocent civilian lives so as to spread fear, to bring the united states, with all its "corrupt western ideas" to its knees. I dont care if they called themselves angels of mercy, it doesnt change the fact that they are EVIL, Bad, terrible, or whatever term you wish to use that doesnt offend your sensibilities. And no matter the term, whether you agree or disagree, it does not change THEIR ACTIONS. And to knowthyself, and others like him, please, dont make generalizations. Just because some fundamentalist islamics decided to murder doesnt mean that we should label all muslims evil. Likewise, just because fundamentalist christians committed attrocities in the past doesnt mean christianity is evil. Sure, you can disagree with the doctrine all you want, but labeling a group evil based upon a relatively EXTREME minority's actions is the exact same propaganda you profess to avoid. Finally, you guys can sit here all live-long day in peace and comfort, speaking amongst yourselves about how you long for peace, how war is evil (or really, really, really bad) and that 9/11 is just a great example of two culture's inability to get along, but its all a bunch of pacifist hogwash. Did those fundamentalist muslims care one iota that they were targeting the innocents and not soldiers on a battlefield? Of course not--they were at war with our very culture, our very way of life, with EVERYONE (up to and including pacifists and those too frieghtened to judge others evil). In a conflict, the agressor makes the rules, and if you do not defend yourself physically, mentally, and morally, you will lose your freedom and even your very life. End of sermon.
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No, not really. They aren't teams. There's good and evil in all societies and among all peoples, but it doesn't mean there's some kind of alliance among all good people and among all evil people. The agenda of Mao, for example, was much more different than that of Hitler's, but I would argue that they were both equally evil.
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They need time to re-cut the latest version of "Loose Change" to include their "proof" that the clip was faked.
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Hitler could be proven to be "hateful" or "maniacal" but you can't PROVE he was evil anymore than you can prove that hurricane Katrina was "evil".
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If you can look past the glorified speeches and what not, then this movie might be quite good, and worthy being called WTC.
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However, its your subjective interpretation of those terms defines your character. If you equate good with hate, murder, theft, and rape, then you are evil. However, if you equate good with honesty, love, freedom, and life, then you are good. It isnt any more complicated than that. How you interpet those "subjective terms" and apply them to yourself and others in life is what difines you.
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I was strolling through Centrsl Park one fine day last summer when I came upon a duck pond. There was a mallard swimming lazily, quacking to himself. Suddenly from above and behind the duck a goose swooped in for a landing--directly on the duck. The duck goes under and pops up in front of the goose. He's gotta be pissed but he shakes it off. What's he gonna do? It's a goose for fuck sake! Yeah, dude: animals are evil. That's the moral. And since evolution isn't true and we're not descended from animals, we're not evil. We're angels in body form, right? Isn't that the other option? So yeah: there's another moral or something. I think. Plus....uhhhhh...USA! USA!
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physically. Does that mean we attack countries that never attacked us? We must defend ourselves mentally. Does that mean we brainwash our children to march in step? We must defend ourselves morally. Doesn't that mean we keep the moral authority by being more compassionate and understanding than our enemies?
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I apologize to Paul Greengrass for making fun of his movie. Sorry Paul, I just didn't see THAT coming. WTC looks so much worse than "United 93", I think you did a great job. What's up with this cheesy-as-hell soundtrack? What's with all the incredible stupid lines? I can't believe they actually made a movie like this...
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BTW, have you ever tried watching "Loose Change"? Just curious as to what your take on it might be. As for the Pentagon clip, well..."they" will never be satisfied with any official explanations or evidence. For example: Infowars - those guys believe that EVERY terrorist attack is actually a government "psy-op".
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>>Does that mean we attack countries that never attacked us?<<
Yes, just like the US attacked Iraq!
The US never learns. It just makes dumb movies for people who have no understanding of the wider world.
You only have to look at the posters on this talkback to realise that the intelligence levels in this country are abnormally low. -
"Well...you can't deny that two planes hit the WTC center" ....... First day on AICN? Hold on to your hat.
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Supposedly most of the movie takes place with Cage buried in the rubble. They look pinned pretty good. So, at least an hour of two guys in the dark, talking. Even a mine shaft disaster movie would have more action. Yawn.
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let ignore for moment that this film is based on 9/11 and pretend it's a fictional film (which frankly, all films are, no matter what truths they are ostensibly based on)
I generally like Stone, i think his films are often kinda artsy and intellegent (I believe NBK is a vastly underrated satire)...
but the words that came to mind when i saw this trailer were:
cliche / sappy / conventional / ron howard / backdraft / apollo 13..
...surely there is a more complex angle on these events from which to make a film than just a buddy movie, hero, survival, crying wives story. I dont mean to sound like a dick and granted i havnt seen the film...and maybe there's more to it...but you wouldnt know it from the trailer. this feels like a another "spoon-feed every emotion and reaction to the audience" movie.
I'm not sure that's the healthiest way to portray these events.
i'm sorry but just feels to obvious and too "hollywood popcorn & kleenex movie"
but of course I could be wrong. -
more evil than Stalin? By how much pain and suffering they caused? By how much they enjoyed killing? You can't prove which one is more evil because "evil" is a subjective term.
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and the new pentagon vids show next to nothing... I'll wait for the highway or the hotel video's....
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Yes, I've watched it, and I found it to be almost unwatchable. In my mind it's just another exercise in breaking everything down into such small parts that it all loses meaning and enables one to put things back together again in whatever order is desired. It literally amounts to "the rivet captured on tape in the wreckage doesn't correspond to the rivets used in that model of plane according to the blueprints we have acquired."
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Okay, it's like this: Katrina = Tragedy. 9-11 = Evil act. Don't call 9-11 a tragedy. It was mass murder. I know one day I'll pick up a history book and find Hitler and the Holocaust labeled as a "tragedy." We chip away at the language folks...and we chip away at the facts. Hell...we can't even call illegal immigrants "illegal" immigrants in some circles. We might offend!
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Whoever said anything about Iraq? As to your question of moral authority, how much of an authority will you be when you're dead? If you dont believe in physical defense, that's alright by me--and certainly by those who would kill you. How would you have dealt with Hitler, if you must be more compassionate and understanding then your enemy? Compassion sometimes requires you to physically act in defense of another, whether you like fighting or not.
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what are your thoughts on the fact that they only released a few frames of video that frankly dont show very much without using a great deal of imagination and speculation...but they wont release the imediately confiscated wide angle shots taken from the gas station and hotel?? does that not seem fishy to you? i'm not saying I know what happened..but thats the point! no one does. The videos exist and "they" wont let anyone see it...the question is why not!?! how can any American not be outraged!
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I was wondering when you'd show up. I'd admit, I was curious about the video footage. Supposedly, Judicial Watch did file for the other alleged tapes from the hotel and VDOT (I believe). But it does not look like that FOIA request has been answered. -- And yeah, fuck Infowars. Alex Jones and Prisonplanet are the fearmonger Yin to the so-called "Global Agenda's" Yang.
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Yes, two sides. Are you sitting in a room somewhere right now? Look to your left, then your right. Done? Okay, two sides, right? Now, the space you're sitting in, that's the space in between the two sides (the grey area). The grey area doesn't exist without the two sides. Two sides doesn't mean I deny the existence of the space in between. But there are clearly people lined up on both sides, and a majority of people in the middle somewhere.
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To attribute "evil" to something is the ultimate moral cop out. It's such an extreme word that it cannot (sanely) be applied to oneself, therefore applying it to someone else forces a dichotomy that benefits you -- "You're evil, therefore I must be good, and we cannot possibly have anything in common." I think "hate" is a much more useful term. The terrorists weren't motivated by "evil" or even some misguided notion of "good." They were motivated by hate. And the thing about hate is, nobody is immune to it. Right wing, left wing, we are all prone to hating each other. Hate is much easier to tolerate in ourselves than "evil." Therefore, you will not see anybody giving up their hatred, or very much discussion of it, because it requires more self-honesty than simply to label the other side as monsters.
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re: katrina...what do you call it if by way of govenment inaction many people die. is that still just a "tragedy"???
I think not my friend..that is something quite diferent altogether. the world is not so black and white.
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Yes, from the point of view of the cosmos and the fact that we're all star dust and will go back to being dust and the universe will eventually be destroyed, evil is a subjective term. However, this doesn't make it wrong (also subjective). The fact is that you as well as everyone else makes subjective choices every single day of your lives. There are certain subjective ideas that we as a species must try to agree upon as much as possible in order to forward our development and ensure that our short existence can be as pleasurable and meaningful (subjective term) as possible. The fact (subjective) is, we can never escape subjectivity in our lives. It's just a matter of what choices we think are important (subjective) to make and fight to have accepted. We shouldn't shy away from trying to define good or evil just because it's difficult or because not everyone is in agreement yet. If you don't believe in essentially evil people, you can by definition not believe in essentially good people either.
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the point you are missing is that "good" and "evil" are subjective terms. they are not absolute as your "walls" analogy implies.
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...but what they did was EVIL? I don't care about their motivation. What they did was fucking EVIL!! Jesus Christ, people, why the fuck is it so hard to use a word like that when somebody commits mass murder? I suppose the Dahmers of the world aren't EVIL either, just a little misguided...
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Problem doesn't change though, because nobody who hates anything will admit that their hate is wrong. I hate nazism, fascism, communism and religious fundamentalism and I feel that I'm right in doing so.
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>>How would you have dealt with Hitler<<<
Ha ha ha ha!
The Americans didn't deal with Hitler. They waited two years before they even got involved in the war.
Wasn't until their own interests were threatened by the Japanese that they even got involved.
US has always been ignorant of world events. More so now than ever. -
I'll go you one better: if you dont believe in essentially evil or good people, you dont even beleive in peoples' rights to live free. If you did, you would immediately have to defend freedom from those who would take have people serve them as slaves to their will and base desires. If everything is neither wrong or right, then there is nothing important or unimportant, and you are free to do anything to anyone at anytime. Sound like a familiar doctrine to anyone?
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...the actions that we define are subjective. Regardless, this semantic argument is ultimately pointless. We can go back and forth all day while the EVIL or BAD or MISGUIDED or WHATEVER THE FUCK WE WANT TO LABEL THEM people of the world will continue to plot our deaths. And yes, you specifically. They don't care if you are trying to understand them. They ultimately hate you too.
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aside from the spelling errors, i meant "you would immediately have to defend freedom from those who would take it and have people.."
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The fact remains, however late they were, that the Americans did deal with Hitler. And perhaps there's a lesson in there somewhere, about proactive measures as opposed to reactive ones.
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try to keep up with the discussion or you'll have to sit at the kiddy table. I'm not warning you again, young man...
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Hollywood, you've opened my eyes.
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I Know What You Did Last Supper.
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Well, first of all, I take slight umbrage to the title, "Official Story Believer". By nature, I'm a fairly inquisitive individual and therefore believe there are still 9/11 questions that need answering. However, the fact that the Pentagon video doesn't really show much shouldn't surprise anyone in the least. Technically, it is more than just a few frames - I believe the video is upwards of 3.5 minutes or so. But the key frames were already leaked to the public years ago. As for the other videos, I have no answer for that other than: if they DO exist, I hope they will be released, too. In the meantime, I think we can all agree that something flew into the Pentagon and that a lot of people on I-95/395 said that it was a commercial plane.
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it's not pointless at all...it is important to think about these things...we have to ask ourselves..first of all who are "they"? guys in caves in afganistan? iraqis? muslim fundamentalists? americans like timothy vey? 19 saudi highjackers? or is the "enemy" simply whoever our govenment says they are. do we take our leaders at their word? do they have unterior motives? do we just believe everything they feed us and then react with blind emotion? the next question, logically, is do "they" in fact hate us...and if so then why? once you spend some time thinking about and researching these things you'll realize that all is not what it seems. there is a much bigger picture than "they hate us becasue of our freedom"..that's nonsense...if thats why then why not bomb canada and holland and sweden then? in many ways they are more free than the US...one much look at the bigger picture, not do do so is to be willfully ignorant and is ultimately dangerous thinking.
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>>And perhaps there's a lesson in there somewhere, about proactive measures as opposed to reactive ones.<<
So you attack everyone! -
fair enough...but there as many witnesses that say it did not look at all like a commercial airliner. all im saying is that pecidents have been set.
-gulf of tonkin - pearl harbour - babies removed from incubators (a BS story that helped gain support for iraq war 1) - operation northwoods...google that...general smedly butler....google him. the US government has a pretty shady history of lies and deceit to the public. in light of history one must be skeptical. -
>>try to keep up with the discussion or you'll have to sit at the kiddy table.<<
This is the kiddy table!
Fact remains the Americans came into WWII two years late. They couldn't recognise evil if it slapped them in the face.
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It trivialises the events of that day in everyway possible. Into nothing more than an action movie. Look at the WTC added in with effects. Look at it burning from far away. The buildings collapsing! run from the special effects! This movie is beyond insulting. I thought United93 was insulting, but this is so far gone into the realm of action summer movie. Eating popcorn watching the WTC come down 5 years after 911. We should litteraly beat the shit outta Oliver Stone.
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caused 9-11. It's better than saying it was caused by evil. You might as well call Bin Laden a witch.
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the americans did not "deal with hitler" quite as you say...it was the russians who did most of the work (and dying).
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seriously, the images of 9/11 from that particular date are more than powerful enough to suffice for the next decade or so. i dont deny the place art has in our culture in regards to historical representation, but the events of that date are still confused in the general populations mind.
look, im not looking for any of the ignorant ideological conflict that a lot of these fucking morons engage in. im suffering from hate exhaustion . . . im just sick of it.
if we're talking about >factsnot< refuted. anywhere. that's all im saying. -
While both are bad. Are intent wasn't to kill 3000 innocent people in Iraq. Not only that we gave options and altimatums. While it hasn't gone well. Our intentions were to remove a dictator not kill innocent people and you know that. You can't compare that to terrorist who discriminantly wanted to kill as many innocent people as possible. There's a lesser of two evils here. Comparing the two is ridiculous.
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how does that help anyone? Does it make us safer? No. Does help people understand what he did? No. All it does is simplify the human condition into some fairytale of good vs evil. It's actually counter-productive when you think about it.
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my only question about the pentagon video is this. We all saw the planes smash into the towers and how big those explosions were. Maybe its just an issue of scale because of the vantage point of the camera but I would have thought the explosion would be vastly bigger.
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Anyone remember that film? This just looks like Stone revisiting that style of filmmaking again. He's always veered from one style (NBK) to another (Wall Street) with relative frequency. He just hasn't made a film in years that I've really wanted to see. I lived a few blocks from where the WTC went down and I have no desire to revisit that day.
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my argument is not the definition of evil, its how it is USED. Its used to manipulate our emotions and persuade us.
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We were there right along side the Russians! Who delt with the Japanese? Who fought them over the Pacific? How many Americans fought died on Okinawa? Who ended the war with atomic bombs and saved millions upon millions of lives. From a war that would have dragged on for decades. We did! That's who!
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Regarding "Loose Change" and rivets: such is the genesis of a conspiracy theory, I suppose. Yeah, I hear you. What's most frustrating to me are the immediately drawn conclusions that what you are seeing is a controlled demolition in NY, a faked crash site in PA, and a missle attack in DC. They immediately jump to these conclusions without asking themselves what the other possibilities may be with the evidence (and witnesses) at hand. Outside-the-box thinking is great but sometimes it must be done more than once. So, if folks are going to put forth these ideas, they need to get on the ball and get their facts straight, too.
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For just a split second, I didn't think it was going to say "of Courage and Survival" under it. Should've faded in simaltaneously with the "True Story" part. A True Story? Wow, this really happened? And yes, the trailer was awfully cheesy. And for fuck's sake, it's NICOLAS Cage. How many people can't spell his goddamn name correctly?!? It's annoying.
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May 17, 2006 10:51:45 AM CDT
Csn't wait for the over the top 9/11 score & theme song
by orionsangels
Celin Dion, with the title track, My Hero. That commie prick Oliver Stone is thinking Oscar! Why don't you go meet with your pal Castro again
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>>While it hasn't gone well. Our intentions were to remove a dictator<<
Actually the intention was to remove Weapons of Mass Destruction.
However, there weren't any Weapons of Mass Destruction. This was misinformation provided by "American Intelligence."
American Intelligence is an oxymoron!
Thousands of innocent Iraqis have died as a result of US incompetence.
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...is the refusal to believe evil exists. And this film looks really powerful.
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This all could have been pervented if saddam had just complied with the United States. He let his people tie and let this mess happen, by refusing to give himself up.
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if your doing it "by accident" like the US Army does in Iraq. I'm sure that's completely acceptable justification unless that "collateral damage" includes YOUR loved ones. Then it's a different story. I'm sure to Bin Laden, everyone who died in those towers was a casualty of war. Nothing personal.
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This all could have been pervented if saddam had just complied with the United States. He let his people die and let this mess happen, by refusing to give himself up.
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is really threatened by ambiguous concepts, then we are in far more trouble than im willing to admit.
and if anyone thinks the conflict first begun when Germany invaded Austria ended with the atomic weapons dropped on japan, all i have to say is: please read some more history. dividing conflict into neatly organized educational compartments is both incorrect and dangerous. the history of man is far more complex than that, and any reflexive analysis of it based on such assumptions is tragically flawed. essentially: fuck you, please shut up. -
There's nothing ok about killing people. I was merely stating there's a difference, between 9/11 and Iraq War. The people in the WTC had no options, no warning, no nothing. They just died outta the blue, but since they're mostly white rich people as the rest of the world sees it and not poor like Iraqi's. It's not that bad right? They deserved it, right? We gave Iraq a chance and our targets weren't innocent people and you know this.
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Hate isn't a cause, it's a symptom of strongly held beliefs.
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How has your not labeling of Jeffrey Dahmer as evil helped anyone as opposed to someone who has? I'm not going to argue his particular case one way or the other, but not all serial killers are mentally ill. By that token, anyone who goes to extreme measures to HELP another human being is also crazy, yet I don't hear anyone arguing that point.
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Left and Right, Democrat and Republican, Liberal and Conservative alike. As humans you are limited, and your need for decisive answers in questions you are too afraid to ask, as well as hear the answer to, shows your cowardice and ignorance.
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you talk as if you aren't human. put yourself on a pedestal much?
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There's nothing wrong with exploring the causes for wars and how certain conflicts overlap or turn into others, but the danger is in giving in to complete relativism in the process. If every human concept and conflict can be reduced to equally neutral components then the impulse to resist oppression or to maintain a civilized society where everyone abides by rules to ensure that we all can live our lives is dangerously close. In its extreme and logical final phase, the world would be plunged into complete tyranny because the relative people of the "enlightened" nations wouldn't be able to see the "objective" importance in resisting the will of what they would see as just "a different way of looking at things, man".
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What use is it to chime in and drop a stupid Talkback grenade like that? Are you trying to claim some sort of high-ground so as to get off the best shot? You must be truly enlightened.
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I think the whole thing is still to fresh in my mind. I live in NJ and this is too much to handle on film. I drive the NJ turnpike and get a constant reminder on the horizon every time. Side Note: Why havent\'t we found Osama yet? Conspiracy???
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"a different way of looking at things, man" <-- this reminds me of the stoner kids in college who advocated understanding and peace
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Same reason you haven't found any Weapons of Mass Destruction. Sheer incompetence.
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It's just a lifestyle choice. What a moron.
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your passion and "patriotism" is exceeded only by your ignorance it seems. you need to crack open a few history books.
WW2
A/ dead americans 295,000 / dead russians 13,600,000 + 7,700,00 civillians.
B/ the war was about to end (and would have) before the US dropped 2 nuclear weapons on civilian cities.
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in THX and with action superstar Nicolas Cage. Unbelievable this movie got green lighted, but than again it isn't.
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no, the biggest threat to our society is buying into meaningless sound-byte rhetoric and bullshit HYPERBOLE.
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Your saying that there are WMDs out there and we just haven't found them yet?
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>>Your saying that there are WMDs out there and we just haven't found them yet?<<
No, I'm saying the US was a fool to think there were any. Sheer incompetence by the oxymoronic 'American Intelligence.'
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Well it makes sense. The Russians were on same soil as the Germans. They were more equipped to deal with the situation and more open to attack, but we certainly helped and played our part and we were overseas. So we made a bigger sacrifice. Oh and we didn't drop 2 nuclear bombs on Japan. We dropped 2 atomic bombs. nuclear bombs didn't exist yet. crack open a book. If Japans leaders weren't so stubborn and ignorant. They could have saved their own people. In the end though. The needs of millions outweigh the needs of the few.
If you wanna look up true evil. Read about the Holocaust. -
Good grief! WW2 and WTC?! I'm going to read this thread all day. Didn't 'Crash' teach us we need to be more tolerant? :-P
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"""He
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You seem very defensive when it comes to America and its mistakes in WWII and Iraq.
And you shift your ground even faster than Bush.
It is good to learn from mistakes. Is it surely bad to ignore them. -
You make me feel actual pain here. Congratulations.
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We all know the real events of 9/11 were terrible and heartbreaking but why make such a cheeseball movie out of it? Stone is just trying to land himself some easy bucks and critical praise from the bleary eyed safe shooting hack critics. This film could be about anything, boring slow mo-mo women crying and tough guys throwing themselves in harms way. Pleeeeeease give me a break! Watch a documentary if you really care what happened that day, not this shit.
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I can't believe any of you even debate these clowns. Don't give these limp wristed, spineless, pussies the time of day. If in the real world you encounter a sissy like these guys, who want to tell you what to think, punch them in the mouth.
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>>no, the biggest threat to our society is buying into meaningless sound-byte rhetoric and bullshit HYPERBOLE.<< I'll remember that the next time some animal rights activist tells me that "meat is murder" and shows me a picture of dead chickens with the title "Holocaust on your plate."
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"Get these mutha fuckin' terrorists off my goddamn plane!"
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>>If in the real world you encounter a sissy like these guys, who want to tell you what to think, punch them in the mouth.<<
Yes, let's drop bombs on them US of A style. Then hunker down in our Justice41 burrows and wait for them to go away. -
claiming all libs are cowards. I guess that's why your fearless leader Dubya was protecting Texas while tens of thousands of his countrymen died fighting in Vietnam.
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Never mind how many Americans or Russians died during WW2, if you're talking about the USA dropping two atomic bombs on Japan you simply cannot justify those actions! Just the environmental cost is beyond imagination, not to mention the number of humans and animals that were killed and poisoned. Japan is still paying the price. I understnad the allies wanted the war over, due to the probable loss of allied lives and the economic costs of the war, but it is still one of the worst atrocities in human history and the USA should be ashamed of this, just as many Germans and Japanese are ashamed of their war crimes.
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Interesting that there is not as much fist shaking about how it is too soon for this. Remember the talkback for the first trailer for United 93 was filled to the brim with hate for the film. Now, it seems that with the release of that movie, Greengrass generously took the barrage of unreadiness and let his movie speak for itself. Even though most of America didn't see the movie, he still seemed to ready the American public for things like this. Now that we have gotten over the fact, that yes, Hollywood was eventually going to make movies on 9/11, maybe Americans will set foot in the theatre to see this movie. There does seem to be more incredible & painful images in this movie because it is showcasing what a horrific event of this size was never ever before able to do before. That is that every American was able to see it actually happening on television. It's perfectly natural for us to be feeling this way and so unsurprising that we would react this way. These movies need to be made at this time, but it is not the right time for people to see it. United 93, since it has been released, will be greatly appreciated years from now. World Trade Center, we will see in August. I will be greatly suprised if World Trade Center makes a load of money and I think it will speak great greatly on how Americans think. Is that a good thing if people come in droves to see WTC and not at all for United 93? I don't know...
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He's an artist and changes his style to fit the material.
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give off a Ladder 49 vibe?
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Anyone who utters such empty, nonsense terms is truly a retard. The world is not as simple as your limited brainpower would like for it to be.
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i dont but this flic looks like it might make me cry into my hotdog. that sounds kinda pervy.
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Remember soon after 911. Collateral the Schwarzenegger film had to be pulled back. Vanilla Sky showed the WTC. A.I. showed the WTC. OMG. Now Hollywood's like, fuck it! Let's milk this cash cow already. My how times have changed in less than 5 years.
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Rhetoric and hyperbole have always been with us, and while annoying as hell, present no lasting threat. History always sorts out rhetoric from the truth. But the increasing desire of our society to deny the existence of evil poses an immense threat. Evil thrives most when it is denied. Look at Hitler and Chamberlain, for example. The primary problem is that the right-wing is too "other-centric" and inflammatory in its naming of evil, while the left-wing is just plain blind to evil. Evil is just as much "in-here" as "out-there." Evil is not only found in what happened on 9-11, it's also found in social policies that listen more to special interest groups than to the voices of people who are hungry, lacking good education, and angry. It's found in the Democrats' desire for power at any cost and the Republicans' pandering to the rich. Evil exists in all forms, and to refuse to believe in it poses a greater threat than any rhetorical bullshit.
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This has to be a parody or something. This must set the record for the most number of cliched lines ever in a trailer. Just awful.
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I am curious to see how the Republican jizzmoppers at Fox News handle this movie, because it is about faith, God, brotherhood, family, and it is a very respectful telling of the story -- all the things they want to accuse Godless liberals like Oliver Stone of not understanding. Well, Bush's old Yale alumni has more intelligence and more humility about his own views than these sops will ever know with their self-righteous platitudes and conscious bullshitting. This movie is going to do what United 93 never could, which is to look past the situation itself and find the meaning of faith in times of tragedy. The script for this is one of the most brilliant pieces of writing I have ever seen, and aside from a surprisingly saccharine ending (which I'm sure will look different off the page), this story is as respectful, terrifying, and insightful as any that I can think of in years. This movie does what Munich wished it could do, which is take these huge struggles that are bigger than human beings, and remind us that at the heart of all of them are just that -- human beings. People can bash this movie or Stone all they want, but when this film comes out they're going to feel pretty stupid. It's so well written and appears to be translated so well to film that this has the potential to be one of the best movies of the last few years.
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...and very hot.
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Best thing in that shitty movie...
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Scene that had to be reshot and eventually dumped? That was a great trailer teaser though. Real Spidey webslinging.
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I can't remember a film trailer ever moving me to tears, but that came close. I think Stone's one of the most talented, important filmmakers of our times and, from the looks of it, this could be his most affecting work yet.
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http://www.myspace.com/gnarlsbarkley
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Hmmmm.... he must be at the store buying Kool-Aid.
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People who embrace the idea that their enemy is "evil" are simple. They don't have the ability to see things in subjective terms because, most likely, they've had religious or pseudo-patriotic propaganda shoved down their throats too long. There are no moral absolutes. VoodooV nailed it with his "hate" post, but some of you simply don't have the equipment upstairs to grasp basic philosophical ideals. --- Hitler is often called "evil" and yet I'll wager there was no point in his life when he twirled his little mustache and said "Nya ha ha! I'm so evil! My evil plan is coming to fruition! I'll kill those do-gooder Jews and Americans!" and in fact, he referred to his enemies as "evil" and encouraged the Nazi party to wipe the "evil" of the Jews and socialists off the map. --- The fact is that BOTH SIDES in any conflict consider themselves "the good guys" and consider the enemy "the evil side" or "the bad guys." One need only look at the propaganda posters and films of the late 1930s and early 1940s, in which the enemy is cartoonishly portrayed as a stereotypical villain on both sides, to realize that "good" and "evil" are completely subjective concepts. --- You all say destroying the WTC and 3,000 human lives was "evil" (and we won't debate who was responsible for the event, or the many holes in the official story), but you deny that our soldiers- our good boys and girls- wandering around Baghdad shooting civilians (and they DID do this) is just as "evil." You deny that what happened in Abu Ghraib was an international act of "evil." You deny that the dropping of the bomb on Nagasaki or Hiroshima was "evil." So your primitive point of view is that ANY ACT OF VIOLENCE DONE *TO* US IS CAUSED BY "EVIL" and ANY ACT OF VIOLENCE DONE TO THOSE WE CONSIDER "EVIL" IS ACTUALLY GOOD. --- I wish you could understand how black & white, mundane, and silly that is, but you're not capable. I've tried to explain the philosophical concepts of moral absolutism to some of the more gung-ho Christian conservatives, and they have proven incapable of getting anything beyond "Enemies are all evil. We are all good." --- I'm not "blind to evil" here. I simply recognize that "evil" is a subjective term; It's ALWAYS the other guy, never oneself or one's side, that is labeled as evil. It's a pejorative term. In reality, there are no moral absolutes- We all commit acts of selfishness and selflessness every day, and the balance of these- which one of them we do *more* as individuals- is the only true indicator of what kind of people we are. --- What I see from the "lefties" is "let me explain this to you..." and what I see from the "righties" is "you're wimps who deserve to be beaten for not agreeing with my moral position." and it's all a little wrong-minded. The truth lies somewhere in-between, as usual. --- Finally, a special note to JUSTICE41: You seem to think that people who aren't conservative can't possibly be able to defend themselves, and follow up with a threat of a punch in the mouth. First of all, don't you think punching someone who just wants to discuss things is a little- oh- "evil?" and second, you're sadly mistaken if you think all liberals are tree-hugging hippies. We're not. Your stereotypes are wrong. Many liberals are soldiers, many of us are fighters, and lots of us do, indeed, know weapons and can hold our own in a fair (or dirty) fight. Punch me in the mouth, and I'll knock you on your ass and break your arm, nose, or collarbone before you can say "chickenhawk." So pick your battles wisely. "Liberal" is not synonymous with "complete pacifist" despite all the B.S. fed to you by O'Reilly. We can defend ourselves, and this country, a lot more frequently than conservatives do. Go ahead and throw the first punch, and we'll bust your jaw before you can say "chickenhawk."
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I'm really excited to see this. And I'm not an Oliver Stone or Nick Cage fan...
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Took it down to Chinatown and back again.
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very, very, very bad that day. Happy now fuckers?
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Man you guys sure are gullible nuts aintcha. I guess after years of being lied to by your mother about her job as greeter to men of wealth, I guess any wacko drivel will be slopped up by you twits. So how many of you twats live in a compound in Wacko Texas just waiting for the FIBBII guys while you sop up the latest conspiracy drivel on the net?
Moral Cowards. -
I think that you -- while making certain valid points -- commit the very same error you accuse absolutists of, namely automatically assuming that everyone who believes in evil defines it in Oilcan Harry terms. That is not the case with a lot of us. I'm under no illusions about evil being one-dimensional or that most evil human beings sit at home twirling their mustaches while cackling maniacally. Evil is, despite its mundanity, an enormously complex problem and not easily defined. Furthermore, like you said, nobody will admit to be being evil so the problem becomes even more complex, yet we must -- and do -- make moral judgments and define ourselves and our society by subjective means every single day. If we allow the erosion of the very concept of "good" or "bad" there will be no impetus to improve as a species.
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Blah, Blah, Blah
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IF in the future, irrefutable evidence arises (or a confession surfaces) that says that the Bush administration was behind 9/11 in one way or another (and I'm not saying he was-- I'm saying "what if?"), would you suddenly-- as a hardcore conservative-- say that Bush is "evil" or would you find a reason to justify his actions, like saying "it was for the greater good" or "he was shocking us into defending ourselves against the threat of terrorism"? If you found out it was Jesus Christ of God Himself who chose that method to smite those people on 9/11, and there was absolute proof of this, would you change your mind about this "evil" act and consider it "good" all of a sudden? Or would 9/11 still be "evil" even if it was Jesus Christ who organized it to punish a building full of "sinners" who "had it coming"? --- I really wonder. If it was all Don Rumsfeld's doing, would it still be "evil" or would it be "part of a decisive plan"? --- Party loyalty is what blinds people, not subjectivity.
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whats the stoy about?
at least they didn't release it on sep 11 -
that flight 93 was actually decent movie distract you from the bigger fact that IT NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN MADE IN THE FIRST PLACE! one does not forgive the other
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What the fuck kind of stupid question is that? I already said it was an EVIL act, and if Bush was complicit, the act is still EVIL and GWB is an EVIL man. BTW, I am certainly not a Bush fan or a Republican, but it's a huge stretch to pin 9/11 on him, regardless of how many Internet sites tell you otherwise.
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Zero, if a family member was kidnapped, held captive for weeks, tortured, sodomized, mutilated, and eventually killed, what term to you reserve for the person who did it and the acts themselves? Does it even matter what term you use?
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I said "evil" was subjective, because it's misused and applies only to the enemy. People commit "good" or "bad" acts... But this is far less extreme than categorizing something as "Evil." --- "Bad" is simply "not good" while "Evil" is "inherently and intentionally villainous." --- You're right, DocPazuzu... But the fact remains that it's not the act that people are judging as evil-- it's the People Behind The Act, and ONLY when they are "not on our side." if an "evil" act is committed by someone on our side, we try to justify it somehow. Until people can see evil within themselves and their own group, they have little right to slap the label on others. -- JUSTICE41: So that's all you've got, huh? The word "drivel" and some non-sequitur about "conspiracy theories"? So not only would the average liberal beat you in boxing ring, but they'd trounce you in a debate, too. Sad. Get some new material before bothering to attack- and here's a hint: Stop taking your Cliff's notes from O'Reilly, Coulter, and Limbaugh. They're weak debaters and barely capable of withstanding scrutiny. Try some other sound bites next time. Maybe one of them will stick.
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...Just kidding, you're not going to see the mysterious collapse of the CIA/DOD/Secret Service 47 story high rise that fell in 6.6 seconds hours after the towers fell tho no plane hit it. Btw, I wonder if this movie will talk about how top FBI counter terrorism chief Agent John ONeil was ho ton the trail of al Qaeda, til he was fired and sent to head security of the towers on 9/11? Or how NORAD stood down?
Oh, THANK GOD they finally cleared everything up with that Pentagon footage yesterday! *WHEW* -
Yep, I'm sure when all those fine folks were laid to rest in Arlington they thought to themselves "Thank God I've protected the right of Americans to make asses of themselves on the internet."
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I'd say they're mentally deranged, at least. Probably a sociopath with a legitimate mental problem. I would not say they were "evil" although I might say their actions were "vile" or "insane." Really, the word I'd use would be "murderer" since that's more than strong enough to explain WHAT they did, and how vile it is. I don't need to assign a moral identity to the killer, as I don't know him or his motivations and can't rightly determine if he did what he did from hatred, or some twisted belief that he was "defeating evil." --- Also, let us put into question what my family member might have done to invite this... Was this my rotten Uncle who probably deserved to die, or was this my innocent niece who has done nothing to provoke this murderer? Did my relative do anything to this man? Did they know him? Are there any direct connections between the actions of my relative and their fate? Was this completely random? Was the man working for someone else, or doing it of his own volition? Too many questions, too much going on in a human brain... You can't just slap "evil" on the guy and assume he was working for the devil or something. Perhaps he was on a prescription drug that was unstable, and caused this reaction? Perhaps he was forced to do this by some other person? Perhaps he's just a piece of shit who wanted to extort money from me? This is why I say--- There are shades of grey, and you do yourself a disservice to ignore all the factors in favor of a pejorative term like "evil" because it steps past all the factors and simply categorizes people as being "decisively villainous", which may or may not be the case. Would I be mad or devastated? Sure. But I watched "Good" Christians beat my friend to death with baseball bats once, because he was gay and thus "an EVIL abomination" in their eyes. I know he wasn't evil. He was a good guy who volunteered for many community organizations... in my eyes, the killers were evil. In their eyes, my friend was evil and they were doing "the lord's work." Who was right?
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I'm not sure who you were directing that question towards. I'm not a republican, but if irrefutable evidence came out proving my mother was behind 9-11, I'd say she was evil, yes. And if Jesus had been behind it? Evil.
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don't be sheep.
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they are not gonna show that stuff. They have nothing to do with the 2 gentlemen's story that Oliver Stone will be portraying in his film. And thanks for jammin' the bandwidth with such a useless post.
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So if Jesus did it, and it were an evil act, and you called Jesus "evil" for it, then who or what would be your moral compass point for "good" after that? You'd have to deny God... So would that mean you'd change your world view and decide that Satan was "good" and God was "evil"?
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Is anyone capable of adult thought and communication? Anyone?
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but there appears to be a pretty good discussion about the nature of Good vs. Evil going on here...
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You're making the mistake of thinking I look at Jesus as a moral compass, or that I even believe in God. I happen to believe in good, evil, and everything in between. It's no disservice to think there is evil, either abstract or as some kind of entity, in this world. I am sorry for your loss, and guess what, those people who beat your friend -- EVIL. Jesus, of the little I know, didn't teach the killing of sinners, so their justifications are all bullshit anyway. What they did was EVIL and homophobic. I'm not going to respond to each of your scenarios. Suffice to say, the dude torturing your family member is EVIL. That doesn't mean I think he was working for the devil. I don't bring religion into the equation. You keep bringing it up.
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Satan would have to prove it to me. Until then, I'd assume they were both evil.
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...is absolutely none. The US trains and funds Osama and al Qaeda, pulls back the FBI from investigating them
in 2001, and Skull and Bones Bush and his neocon buddies can rise up to great power and shake everyone into fear. THEY LET IT HAPPEN.
Check out this great new documentary that proves they allowed it to happen:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6757267008400743688
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Here is a quote that might be of some interest: "The second clause says no law may contradict the principles of democracy. Can you imagine millions demonstrating in Iraq, calling for same-sex marriage, like in Sweden, America, and Britain? Same-sex marriages means a marriage of a man with a man, or a woman with a woman. This is a terrible catastrophe, totally forbidden by Islam. Whoever marries someone of the same sex must be killed. Both must be killed as soon as possible and must be burned as well," - Iraqi Ayatollah Ahmad Husseini Al-Baghdadi. -- Now, Islam aside, this is supposed to be coming from a man of God. Is his instruction and those who would follow this statement with action "evil", per se? Much like those who beat your friend because they were doing "the Lord's work", I'd say they were pretty evil. Evil as in - an intentional cause of suffering and destruction; completely devoid of rational thought and empathy.
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Man that was some cheesy mush with sugar on top. Is this being made for A&E, Lifetime or O?
It looks like one of those films based on true events where heroes are painted by doing something that involves them in events they could have never foreseen.
What the hell is Stone doing? Did the backlash from mainstream US over Alexander from turn him into a p...atriot whipped director? -
Write some more. You're silly!
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I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. What is this "thought" you refer too?
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And that's not all. The neocons are behind the so-called "flouridation" of our water supplies, robbing us of our vital bodily essences. You know what I'm taking about!
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i think i would like a total disaster flick thing on this better .. in a few years .. seeing the towers again in thsi trailer .. hearing 'tuesday morning' ... i was there .. i was awake .. i was working on my playlist to DJ on top of the WTC on 9/12 ... and suddenly the TV news tell me that it is all gone .. ok .. stop whining ..
i find that in this trailer they try too much to bring in the 'wife left at home' drama ... and Cage looks corny ... -
disaster in the history of the world has no reason to be made into a movie, let alone more than one.
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Watch Penn & Teller's BULLSHIT!!! Find out who's feeding you all this crap, before you start barking.
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I guess thats why we need these movies, not everyone knows about it. I'd settle for a docu and a plaque any day over some crap hollywood. BUY WAR BONDS!!!
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There was no mention of the Bush/Clinton illuminati, NWO, the greys, etc which makes me think that you are a bit of a poseur. Fuckin amatuer (although you may be an expert on the best brand of tinfoil or best wacky AM radio station to get while driving through the Nevada desert)
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I'll get back on topic with the nature of evil debate. Who would win a fight between the Time Bandits and Fith Element incarnations of evil and which religion do they represent? Think on while I replenish my bodily essences...
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was witnessed by every American and will be a constant reminder. But, the story itself of World Trade Center(the movie!) is of the two men caught in the rubble and the last to be taken out of ground zero. So, as a filmmaker, you have to recreate the horrific atmosphere that we know all too well from sitting in front of our television sets. We can always see how the events unfolded, no need to recreate all of that, but we do need to feel their story, the survivors. This does look incredibly powerful, but alas, very melodramatic. I really hope Stone doesn't need cutaways to CGI shots and keeps the point of view very restrictive between the two men. Have that day unfold around them. I'm also really worried about the wives storyline(didn't like the shot of Maria Bello sniffing the sheets...) We will see. I'm definitely going to see it...the trailer has definitely haunted me to no end. And, I like the music.
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...is crashing planes into towers and then demanding 1 Miiillion Dollars! Mwahahahahaha... MWAHAHAHA!!!
Regardless of how corny this hallmark card of a movie is, there are enough dumb americans that will go and see this, waving there pretty little rags, asking God to Bless America and to stand by their side as they fight 'religious fanatics'. With good christian love of course...
If non-american terrorists were really behind the whole 9-11 show, they would have the sense to blow up McDonalds all over the country, bring your fat asses to a halt in no time...
Idiots. -
along with John Travolta, must be someone that shows up to work on time every day. We all know those people that are not really very good at what they do but because they're at work on time everyday, they get the good stuff.
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Holy Lord! That was good...really good.
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Less. It's like talking to a plant. The minute you or any other nut starts looking for governmental conspiracies your done. And whatever happened to your family,,, fuck em What the fuck does anyone here care about your so called fucking family and friends?
You all could be killed by fire for all I care.
Nutty people ned to die anyways because you wacko's breed too much.
Olly Stone will inject some sort of Conspiracy garbage into this flick or he'll be ostracized in Hollywood. He's gotta tow the Ultra Lib line or he'll end up like Ron Silver or that wacky Steven Baldwin.
Anyways nothing new here just rehashing an event that can be watched in realtime on video as it happened through A&E or the History Channel. -
how else will they sell their millions of books and DVD documentaries? BULLSHIT!!! Name me one famous conspiracy that was proven fact?
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Our moral compass for defining good and evil comes from faith, huh? Sir, I suggest you read up on plato and aristotle. Hell, at this point, I'd settle if you just crack open Atlas shrugged or did a few hours research on objectivism. Again, you do not have to be religious to be moral, to define good and bad, right and wrong, justice and evil. By the way, Docpazuzu, I'm only curious, but are you a fellow objectivist as well? The only reason I ask is because of your arguments and terminology.
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Which type of asshole is it you are? A leftie goon pretending to be a pea-brained ultra-conservative in order to piss people off, or are you exactly the type of reactionary asshole you appear to be at face value?
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it would not be a conspiracy thoery.
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Good try
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You are right, however. A lot of these nutjobs thrive on the fact that it can't be proven and the idea that there are no coincidences.
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I'm uncomfortable fully embracing any "ism", but I certainly have objectivist leanings, yes.
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If I understood what you meant by that I might be able to reply.
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Why? Because, just like Spike Lee, when people see their names on a movie, people tend to know that the movie will either suck or be a heavy handed 'This is how you should think' piece. Lee and Stone's names mean people actually know to stay away from a movie. Case in point, INSIDE MAN has the biggest domestic take of any Spike Lee movie and the phrase 'Directed by Spike Lee' or 'A Spike Lee joint' was not featured in the domestic trailers (not sure if it was used in foriegn territories). Now Stone's name is not featured for this movie. I'll bet when they tested the trailer (yes...they do have focus groups for trailers) the audience was moved by the trailer and then groaned when Oliver Stone's name appeared on screen. This looks good (though Cage's accent sounds awfuly comical...I smell quotables!), and I do wonder if half the film will be told in flashback of the main characters lives as they lay trapped.
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I have the same leanings myself, and yet Im religious--go figure, huh? If I had to pick an ism, i'd pick objectivism, but it still wouldn't fully apply. I was just curious because you seemed to be about one step ahead of me in my posts.
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Look, I understand that its retarded to think 9/11 was some nazi/cheney/masonic conspiracy. However, I think you underestimate the illuminati, Tom. Beware the illuminati, beware!
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It's a trap and only fools walk into traps like that.
Good try though. I'm sure it works on your average simpleton who hasn't ever actually got into a real knock down drag out debate. -
I think there is a connection. I truly believe the current crop of 20-something conspiratards is the result of kids being allowed to watch The X Files unsupervised all through the 1990's.
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and all I got was this Lone Gunmen T-shirt???
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This thread has become exactly like the United 93 thread. Pointless.
I wouldn't hand over my hard earned money to watch anything Ollie makes. The mans just a fucking wackjob. -
Pussy.
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wacky conspiracists have been around forever. Moon landing? Happened in some desert in New Mexico. Balloon crashes? It was actually aliens in Roswell. President gets killed by a nut who may or may not have had help? It was actually a multi faceted plat concocted by the US industrial complex, carried out by the CIA, FBI, Dallas Police, rogue elements in the navy/army, and covered up by the supreme court and every major news agency. These nutcases have been around for years and the internet, and its blessed anonymity, have only brought them out of the woodwork and into the light.
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Time as usual. Make sure she washes her squack out real good.
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Perhaps they were going for ultra-realisim and that was, in fact, the billboard on that street corner when the planes shadow passed over... But if not, then it feels odd that Paramount is, in essence, plugging one of there own movies. I know, dumb observation, but it caught my eye...
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Guess why your mama's favorite helmet wearer.
Took that long to get the whole never answer a negative question bit....So hows all this name calling working for your objectivist leanings. -
I think you actually did answer my question. You're the reactionary cretin who flunked remedial spelling, not the leftie troll.
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...I suggest you look up "objectivism", you dope.
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Luc Besson's ball of evil is no match for David Warner. The only reason Sark lost to Tron was stupid Flynn rigged the game. Plus, Evil makes some good points. Nipples? For men?
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Anybody else think the word evil was used purposely to put off the lib-bashers who assume because it's Stone that he'll bring politics into it?
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I'm sure it is, because who can keep Oliver Stone separate from Osama Bin Ladin? When Ollie grows a beard, you can't tell the two apart.
I thought it was odd, though, when I heard he cast Anthony Hopkins as Bush, and Woody Harrelson as Dick Cheney. And Juliette Lewis as Chelsea Clinton, whose only seen in one seen jogging past the WTC, but still. Anyone else heard the rumors that Stone ends up trying to pin 9/11 on Opus Dei? Turns out, the terrorists were actually albino Roman Catholics. -
Mark Levin
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I understand why people get so turned off conspiracy theorists cause a lot of them turn off any reason in their brains and blindly believe even the most inane theories. That being said I think there are enough discrepancies with 9/11 to question the accuracy of the info we have been given that day. It is not unAmerican to question your government, it's the whole fucking point of living in a democracy.
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Something incredible happened today. As I was scrolling down the TB I noticed that I was actually agreeing with most of your points. The leftist remarks aside, I think you made a lot of sense echoed my feelings on this issue. Now what am I supposed to do.
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Are you sure? What if it's not? Who says? Why did you say that? What are you wearing?
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so now its unhealthy and "evil" to question information we are told? God does the world get dumber each day or is it just me? the amount of morons here amazes me, no offense (or maybe I should say no ofence.) oh and evil DOES exist, but the word is way overused and that VOODOO guy has a point, even people who do EVIL things weren't born evil, and it's the fact that people do these things to each other that makes it all the more tragic.
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Are you questioning? The government just filled in the gaps information wise after the fact. What you are really doing is coming up with excuse for yourself. I'm sure everyone in the country older than two has seen the videos over and over again until their eyes were bleary from staring at the television. You want to blame anyone blame Clinton for not being a little more pro-active in dealing with Al Queada after they wacked us over and over again in the 90's. 9-11 is the results of trying to find out what the enemy thinks and wants instead of finding them and killing them.
This is why you libs can't be trusted with running the country. The Democrats have lost their spines over the years. Last hawkish Pres. was Johnson and look what a total fuck up he and Kennedy were with Nam. Reagan didn't do so good in Beruit either.
You don't lay the smack down, you'll wind up getting smack round. -
I'm sick of Bush, religion, terrorist. the war in iraq. moore, gore and the global threat, college professors, o'reilly, hannity, conspiracy theorist. hurricanes, celebrities, even moby. As they say in NY - Fight it out amongst ya-selves. I'm done.
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These talkbacks should never be allowed to get off topic.
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So apparently aliens hit the towers, or some freak act of nature? Because this preview looks like ID4 or Day After Tomorrow or any other generic, manipulative studio crap. United 93 was amazing - this looks idiotic.
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That is some funny shit.
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Oh, wait, that means everyone will go see it! Touche, Hollywood.
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You sir are the perfect citizen. If I started a government I would want you to be a citizen because you would be happy to sit back eat ho ho's, watch sitcoms, and never question anything I ever did. What's better you would believe everything I told you. So if any of my plots to take over the world come to fruition I'm gonna give you a ring. That cool?
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I'm curious as to how many of you were there that day and saw what i saw... or lost friend like i did, or half your family like my friend did. The only evil happening is that this message board has been allowed to go on this long and get this cynical. I'm not a republican, I'm not a democrat... I think for myself, I don't rehash all the b.s. news footage that followed for a year(s) after it. It was a horrible day, and anyone not living in NY has NO CLUE what life was like for thee next few months. You're forgetting this was an actual day, not just a movie, and the movie doesn't mean JACK. Stop thinking of your own selfish a$$es for a change and get a hobby that doesn't involve trying to be the first name in Talkback. I'm sorry, but I'm really disappointed right now, no matter what side you think your on.
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That's what you wacko's are. Governments love you morons who run around decrying and declaring everything the gov does, horrible, as long as it's in the other parties hands. All your crazy talk does is harden up the other sides resolve. You people are just useful idiots. The Dems use you to say the crazy things that they can't and the Rep use you to point to, as why the Gov shouldn't be in Libs hands. When a Lib takes over the presidency we will get the black helicopter wacko's and the roles will reverse but you wackjobs, no matter the stripe, are just morons and useful idiots for the two parties to use to maintain or gain power. Good job there nitz.
Too bad someone can't just kill you idiots and save us all the moronic conspiracy crap. -
Look, Justice41, First, I don't pretend to know anything for sure about anything in this life whether it be religion, politics, or anything else. I think the saying "A wise man will admit he knows nothing" is very true. So that being said I don't pretend to know that there was a conspiracy or there wasn't. I just don't blindly follow whatever I am told. I studied media quite extensively in university and anyone that is educated on the topic is aware of how manipulative the various mediums can be. To lump me into the category of a conspiracy loving wack job is completely inaccurate. Are you aware that there are different types of people in this world with a wide range of opinions on various topics? You can't lump people into two neat categories. At least not in this dimension of space. To not ALWAYS trust politicians does not make me a conspiracy nut. But if you wish to do so then cool. I have an uncle who has some farmland you are welcome to graze on.
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this is melodramatic and irresponsible. i understand someone was going to make movies about this at some point, but we're going to approach a point where the medium, these inflated stabs at reality, is going to become more real to us then the actual events. If we keep bouncing back and forth between movie/tv reflecting real life, and real life reflecting movie/tv, all we're going to be left with is an exaggeration of what it means to be human. our understanding of different social groups are based on gross exaggerations that have done nothing short of polarizing people. think of how you view religious people (case in point: the use of the word "evil"), politicians, world conflicts, social issues...it's all in a binary model. one or the other and they are almost always polar opposites.
this might be a movie, but its not "just" a movie. our ability to swallow a world trace center movie from the screenwriter of scarface/director of natural born killers (2 of the greatest examples of exaggerated reality that exist on film) says a lot about where we are as people, sitting in a slowly boiling pot of water, wondering why things are getting a little hot.
when our society has become complacent to dramatized snuff films, our sense of perspective goes out the window and our ability to feel things with personal honesty is diminished.
dammit. freakin oliver stone. -
...then I REFUSE to see it. Sheen knows what really happened on 9/11. He saw the same t.v. images that we all did...but, see, he noticed stuff that we mere mortals could not comprehend. Then afterwards he went and masturbated to child porn on the internet while threatening to kill Denise Richards.
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The trailer looks slick and manipulative. Actually, I enjoyed National Treasure, and liked for once that Cage wasn't over the top.
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political discussion, we can only look for it to get worse.
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Not sure if I'll see the movie. And no idea if it will actually be good... Stone hasn't made a good movie in about 12 years.
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They'll take 80 minutes and watch this.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change -
I wanted to see United 93 because I thought it would be a small ungeneralized focus on the events of that day. Because for some reason watching those involved react to the situation has more "power" than watching the situation itself, on screen of course. Understand? I don't know if I can sit in a theatre and watch 9/11 go down all "towering inferno" style. United 93 was, to me, a deeply emotional and heroic story and it was a great film. For some reason watching this WTC trailer I get completely opposite reactions. Seeing the shadow of the plane go over the building.. that tower of smoke. I'm sure the story of the men involved is greatly heroic just as U93's was, but this screams melodramatic Hollywood summer fare and I wished 9/11 wouldn't have been brought down to this in a hundred years. It doesn't matter who is making the film, be it Peter Jackson or M Night or anyone.. doesn't matter. I can't stomach this concept. Seeing this trailer alone I think to myself 'I will not see this movie in the theatres'.
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Can't wait for the big explosions! Awesome!
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Nobody ever says, "Well, you people can keep your eyes open all you want, but I blindly follow what I'm told!" Or, "The government says it, so that's good enough for me!" It's always other people saying they said it, or must be like that, or that there are presumably people blindly following what they are told . . . And why is it we always seem to disagree with the people who are blindly following what they are told? Does anyone ever say something we agree with 100%, so we think they're just blindly following what we told them? And folks who don't make up their minds on anything, who aren't Democrats or Republicans and can always see both sides of the issue . . . why don't we say they are blindly following a moderate line of milquetoast middle-of-the-road moral relativism? And if someone thinks really hard about everything they are told--are they really doing that because they are independent thinkers, making their own way in the world? Or has someone TOLD them to think that way? Huh?
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Doing a personal parody of right-wing nut jobs, I'll eat a burger from Richard Linklater's Fast Food Nation. Anybody who uses the words "kill you idiots" in regards to somebody they disagree with ideologically is either a troll, a rejected and marginalized right-wing nutjob no conservative would actually want to be seen with, or a cosmopolitan left-of-center playwrite referring to the red-staters in Jesusland. And, seriously: nipples? For men?
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LOL!! Great tagline for the movie poster!!!
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but I will say we have conclusive cinematic proof that evil goes away when Milla voms on it! They never tried it in Time Bandits but I'm sure it would of worked there too. Conclusion, if anyone/thing is evil, vomit on it.
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This film is a glorified snuff film. Hey!! Dont roll your eyes at me yet, people--let me explain my point of view. When it came to films like Titanic, Saving Private Ryan, Passion of the Christ, and Pearl Harbor, there were depictions people/events that were not filmed and happened quite some time ago, showing details that most of us never knew or had seen, giving us new perspective. This film, however, is about one of the most filmed, catalogued, and freshest major event/incident in our nation's history. How many cameras, reporters, and news anchors were there that day? Indeed, our pictures were so precise that we are able to see the planes' points of impact, innocent, desperate people leaping from flame-engulfed levels, men and women running from the falling rubble and debris as the towers individually collapse upon the populace below, and people standing in shock and confusion as they look upon the remaining hulks. We all have seen these images, felt the power of that day, whether small or large, and we have all remembered (so much so that all of us can recall what we were doing upon that day). It is now a mere five years later, but our memories are undoubtedly still fresh. The sights, smells, fears, desperation, and uncertainty are all there; we have only to close our eyes to have it come back. This film shows nothing new, brings to us no new perspective, and invites us to feel only what we already know. It is indeed a multi-million dollar, star-studded, grand example of those in our nation who are obsessed with voyeurism. I am sorry, but I dont need a film to remind me of how I felt upon that day or bastardize the REALITY of that day.
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Nice to see you taking the question everything ideal to practice. You made some good points. Even though most of your questions are rhetorical they are still relevant. I personally question info I'm given partly because of a great prof I once had, being raised by a sociologist and just noticing how manipulated most of the public are through religion, media, and David Hasselhoff.
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Dude, Gilliam evil couldn't be stopped, even by Milla Jovovich. At the most, he would just burn down Kevin's house and show up in his toaster oven, and then KILL his shallow and self-involved parents who are too stupid to listen to the wisdom of children named Kevin! On the other hand, Milla Jovovich wrapped in a skimpy bandage bikini in an obviously cold room could vom on my evil any day of the week. Now: Luc Besson re-imagines 9/11 as a futuristic martial arts showdown. Discuss.
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Man, if only. I wish. Still, I think most people to greater or lesser degrees make up their own minds, on the whole. If people were as easily manipulable as is generally imagined, people would change their points of view constantly, based on the latest manipulation. Yet folks who believe in black helicopters tend to continue to believe in 'em. Religious folks don't go Christian-to-athiest-to-Christian-to-Muslim-to-Jew-to-Hindu based on who the latest person who talked to 'em. Folks who disagree with the POV of Fox News or CNN seem to be more defined by their disagreement than by their sudden conversion to the manipulated data. I tend to believe that most people can only be manipulated into points of view that they are predisposed towards, anyway . . . and, even so, your average talk radio listener will dismiss stuff that somebody says that doesn't dovetail with what they believe to be true. I just don't think seeing most folks (who disagree with us) as sheep is accurate or helpful, or seeing ourselves as wonderfully independent thinkers by comparison. Except of course for me, as I am a wonderfully independent thinker, because I have the balls to question the very concept of independent thinking. So go graze your grass, sheepboys! Now: David Hasselhoff stars as the guy getting his picture taken on top of the WTC just as the first plane is coming in, and the government tries to cover it up by claiming the image was fake! Discuss.
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Is that what the kids are calling it these days? ;-)
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well, you are indeed correct that most people vociferously cling to their faith, morality, and political beliefs--because they are often instilled at a young age. However, a person can indeed be made to disobey their instincts, common sense, and even established sense of ethics. I assure you, it has been proven that 80% of the population, through controlled authority archetypes, peer pressure, and anonymity can be made to stay inside a burning building, willingly electrocute others, and bear false testimony. Another 10 percent will simply shut down, neither cooperating nor preventing acts they feel are morally/ethically wrong. Only ten percent of the population will actually act indipendently, sometimes inspiring others to follow. These statistics tend to fluctuate a bit in different regions, depending on the political/social climate, but not much.
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Is that despite your protestations to the contrary, one never knows which category you fall into unless you are in a similar situation. You can train to be a soldier or learn about psychology and sociology to any extent you like, and there is no guarantee of what your actions will be. Sure, training helps you prepare and act accordingly in a hostile situation, but it can still happen to rookies because there is no real way to be 100 percent sure until that person has been in a hostile situation. I've seen fully trained soldiers, who had never been in combat, actually freeze up and civilian kids take charge of a situation as though they were a full-bird colonel. The point is, you cant tell what you're made of until you have experience. Just food for thought...
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felt very very very cheesy. The fact is I remember everything about 9/11 where I was etc, and remember being taken aback when seeing the whole thing unravel and the confusion. This film feels to polished...I dont think its too soon but will reserve judgement..+ do people REALLY want to see/be reminded of this? I mean I'm british and I wouldnt have any desire to rush into the theaters to see any 9/11 movie let alone a london bombing one starring ant & dec...thats the kind of equivalent were talking about here....
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is what will seperate this movie from United 93. I don't believe this movie will have an ounce of it because Nic Cage says in the trailer, "We are not prepared for this." United 93 you could smell the fucking confusion in the air, just like on that day. As a film lover, the images look very good and emotional, but I do have more severe doubts on this movie everyday. People have been making some good points. I'll wait and see until August. I'm out.
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...not about the perceived quality of this film (which this trailer actually does something to improve, IMHO), but about the public appetite for it. United 93 was a fantastic movie by any critical measure. But it's been outgrossed by a lot of very crummy flicks this year (i.e. RV, She's The Man, Take The Lead, Firewall... the list goes on and on). The only reason you can call it a commercial success is that it only cost $15m to make, and it grossed $30m. I suspect this film cost more, and I think Paramount has to be concerned that if a well-made 9/11 film like United 93 fails to catch on in the mainstream, a big-budget second helping may be doomed to failure. And while you and I know that the two films are very different in theme and context, we also know that Joe Public is just gonna see another 9/11 movie on the poster. I'd be worried if I were Paramount, even if the quality of this movie makes United 93 look like Airport '79.
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is that I'm assuming they are placing this trailer in front of the DaVinci Code. Realistically, there will be a lot of the American public who will be seeing the trailer. I'm interested to hear everyone's reaction in the theatre when it comes up, because I plan on seeing DaVinci Code this weekend. Anyone know the budget for this movie? The production value does look WAY more heavy than United 93.
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I'm guessing there's more to this then meets the eye but the trailer presents it as "Poseidon with relevance!". We'll see...
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I could find this information anywhere at any library or internet. I don't need a movie to inform me on heroism.
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but hanks does make a good terrorist...
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Hmm...that would make a great movie.
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I figured out this thread too soon. I don't even have to read it, because I already know what happened. First, someone complained about the trailer. Then someone said something good about it. Then someone started discussing the merits and demerits of Oliver Stone. Then someone brought up a conspiracy, and then people got into a Conservative Vs. Liberal war, and then DocPazuzu showed up and pissed everybody off.
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That's just a lucky guess. When has any of that ever happened before. Oh wait...
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Most people form the majority of their basic opinions on politics, religion etc. by the time they graduate highschool through a mix of peers and media. From there I get annoyed by people who have decided they are democrat or liberal and then vehemently defend everything their party pushes. You just have to read these message boards to see examples of this. That is the kind of idiocy I am referring to. On some issues I am conservative on others I'm liberal. But anyone who bashes someone stance on an issue based solely on that person's political affiliation is a fucking idiot. And if you haven't seen enough of those morons on these talkback alone then you haven't been around that long. So these are the people I call sheep not just the people who happen to disagree with me. People who disagree with me are actually more like monkeys not sheep. Let's be clear on this.
And for the sarcastically challenged I am of course kidding on that last comment. -
Hey, so uh....
"JFK":Public didnt like... Hmmm
Ive got an awesome idea! LETS EXPLOIT A NATIONAL TRADGEDY! Its so original! Truly, something that I, Oliver Stone, have never done. Ill just write up an awesome screenplay, put in some explosions, add a few famous talented actors and wham-bam! A heartwrenching film that you MUST like, or else you hate America.
Terrorist.
Please? Dont forget about me.
-Love
Oliver Stone
p.s I can promise i will force my own agenda into the movie.
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Can we please be done with these huge-budget recreations of horrible times? Seriously. Filmmakers can be more original than this.
This trailer disgusted me. Though I never say that I wont go see a movie it will take alot for me to reconsider. -
Ive already seen some talkbacks saying stuff like "This trailer choked me up" and "this brings all the emotions back". This movie looks like a shameless exploitation designed to bring up powerful emotions that have already been made. Dont suddenly respect it because it has a recent disaster in it. We cant go around supporting people who just cash in on tradgedy. If it is good (like i have heard united 93 is) then its worthy of those responses, but if it is just a overacted propaganda-filled cry-story, I say ditch it. You dont need to see an overdone film to remember the true tradgedy, and the true heroes. Remember 9/11 and all that we lost.
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For Oliver Stone not to provide his actors with goofy fake hair these days? Nicolas Cage's mustache is the new Collin Ferrell's hair.
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I find it to be totally derogatory and asenine. You can always tell the romantic mentalities by that term. No, I am not referring to chivalry, but rather, the idea that people are not all equal, democracy does not work, and the masses exist to serve the betters among us, the more highly evolved. The sort of thinking you see depicted in Lord of the Rings, Star Wars and beowulf, and perpetuated by the middle ages and any tyrannical regime. Oh, we all know the notion: one man amidst the entire group of innocents and villains, the savior of the entire helpless populace. There is a line between indipendent thinking/leadership and cynnical, isolationist arrogance, Peter, and any who use the term sheep to describe those around them have shown themselves to have crossed it.
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Isn't it tasteless that Paramount Pictures included product placements in one of the shots? Check out this shot (note that both Zoolander and Hardball are both Paramount releases):
http://img155.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zoolander6og.jpg -
Yeah, bt that's a foreboding shadow of death passing over Zoolander. Maybe it's more of a commentary than product placement?
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You haven't seen the movie. You were probably one of the people who cried and raised your fist about Flight 93, didn't see that, and now say that you can see it because you "heard" it was good. Listen, I don't care if you don't want to see the movie, but its plain to see your fear in going to see it(which is ABSOLUTELY fine, I understand the apprehension, not trying to dog you at all). But, you are as bad as the people who say that you are not American if you don't see this. It goes both ways. Nobody is supposed to see this movie and nobody shouldn't see this movie. It should always be available for that choice, though.
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But seriously. I don't know how you can overlook fashion, music trends, and religion and think that people are not SHEEP. But I respect your opinion. It just appears we have lived very different lives up until this point because in mine I have seen countless examples of people following the examples of those in the spotlight. Even an asinine superior human like myself has fallen victim to peer pressure from time to time.
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Oh, I dont overlook at it all. In my limited time on this earth, I have seen many trends come and go, and many people follow such trends. I learned a long time ago, however, that simply not following a trend doesnt make you indipendent. Trends happen because people want them to happen; if a lot of people didnt like soemthing, it wouldnt be trendy. Now I'll grant you, there are those who dont like something but do it anyway to fit in--but we all do that at one time or another. Remember, indipendence has nothing to do with what you wear, your musical tastes, or if you are a part of a trend. Indipendence is your willingness to stick up for yourself, your mind, feelings, and desires. If you like something or are influenced by something that a ton and a half of other people are liking or influenced by doesnt make you any less indipendent. It just means that whatever is trendy or inspirational really was something nice in its own way. Remember, independence has nothing to do with what you wear, your musical tastes, or if you are a part of a trend, but rather your willingness to stick up for yourself, your mind, feelings, and desires. Independence is courage, reasoning, and the willingness to listen as well as act, even if you are on your own.
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I was trying to put the middle sentence at the end and then erase the original sentence. sorry about that.
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I bet it wins the Oscar for Best Picture.
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Darkplanet here (your fav
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Does this mean you'll be disappointed if Stone shows planes hitting the towers as opposed to missiles?
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I said it on 9-11 and i'll say it again - NEW YORK AND THE WORLD TRADE CENTRE WERE LEGITIMATE TARGETS for anyone opposed to Capitalism and 'Western values'. It has to be reiterated - the violence, revenge and bloodshed which Americans clamoured for in the wake of 9-11 has been more than extracted by the loss of innocent lives in Afghanistan and Iraq. You had a chance to vote out that crazy bastard President and his greedy cesspool of a family but YOU BLEW IT! And all the while North Korea proliferate a nuclear arsenal that can wipe out life in California as we know it (might be a good thing). Here's an idea... try learning from your mistakes and stop trying to run the world - didn't you know that job belongs to China now so get in line with the others. The U.S.A. - they're soooo 1980's.
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Oh and I suppose you thought you saw a plane hit the Pentagon? (I saw many reporters snicker on air over that waste of time). With the latest release of 2 or 3 additional frames from a possible 80+ security cameras that supposedly caught the event we are all left wondering. That recent event did nothing but create more focus on a plethora of unanswered questions. Primarily; why would you release something so utterly vague when you claim to have clear footage of the plane hitting the building? I've never seen a more terrifyingly obvious example of propagandist manipulation. Oh and by the way (if you actually took the time as a responsible citizen to look into it) you would find that no one in the 9/11 truth movement is claiming that missiles hit the Twin Towers. It's not a matter of whether or not planes hit the towers, it's the plausibility of those towers falling under their own weight at the speed of gravity from the impact. Because of the extensive coverage of the event it is possible to calculate the buildings fall rate. You'll find with very little homework that buildings only collapse at the speed of gravity when floor-by-floor, timed charges are used. A building collapsing under it's own weight (unaided from explosives) from structural failure will slow down as you get closer to the bottom. It
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