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Moriarty Reacts To UNITED 93!!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Hi, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab...
I’ll be honest... I’m not interested in changing anyone’s mind on this one. If you’re sure you can’t sit through it, then don’t. Don’t force yourself. If you get a knot in your stomach every time you see the trailer or a commercial for it, and you find yourself getting anxious at the thought of seeing 100 minutes of this in a theater... then don’t go.
What Paul Greengrass has done with this film is fairly exceptional, and it’s harder than it looks. He has completely avoided all of the traps that would typically hobble a film like this, and he’s done it in a way where his technique as a filmmaker is almost invisible. If you’re expecting something that ladles on the sentiment or that plays by the conventional rules of Hollywood storytelling, you won’t find it here. Even if you’re a fan of BLOODY SUNDAY, an earlier film that Greengrass made that dramatized a real-life tragic incident, I still don’t think you have any idea what he’s up to with this movie. I certainly didn’t.
I managed to make it to the theater last night without ever having seen a frame of the film. I didn’t see a trailer. I didn’t see any commercials. I hadn’t even seen a still from the film. It wasn’t like I was going out of my way to avoid all imagery from it, either. I simply happened to miss seeing anything until the lights went down and the film began, and in a way, I can’t imagine how you’d sell this. There are no movie stars. There are no “action scenes.” There are no elements that you would typically use to sell a movie to the general public, and you can’t simply cash in on tragedy, either.
But forget about how to sell the film. The deeper question... the more important question... is about whether or not the film has anything to say. Is it just a dramatic recreation of the events of that morning? Or does the film have some larger underpinning, something driving the narrative? In short, is this a case of a movie that exists simply for a message, or is there some genuine meat to it?
Personally, I don’t think it’s a message film at all. I don’t think this is a political film, and I think anyone who’s spent the last week getting worked up in our talkbacks over which agenda they think the film will satisfy is both wrong and right. Wrong because I don’t think the film has any one agenda on its mind, but right because I think you can project anything you want onto it, just as people have been projecting their agendas onto the real events ever since 9/11 happened. One of the ways you advance whatever your agenda is in a film like this is picking which details you include, and which you don’t. When you dramatize things, how you dramatize is inevitably going to reveal what your intent is.
But not Greengrass. His approach is really particular, very smart. As the film begins, he cuts from location to location, never telling us where we are with exposition, never explaining why anyone’s flying, not giving them long conversations about their backgrounds. There are no scenes in the conventional sense. It’s almost disconcerting. You see an airport terminal, people waiting there, and the way it’s shot, the way it’s cast... it’s like you’re looking at the extras from a film, and you can’t help but look around for the movie star, for the familiar face. Whatever dialogue you hear, it’s mixed almost as background noise, as part of the ambient sound. When we see the inside of the national command center for the FAA, and we see Ben Sliney as the Operations Manager, it doesn’t feel like we’re seeing something being set up for a movie. There’s no “moment” for Sliney. Instead, it’s just a guy doing his job, moving through his morning, and by using the real Ben Sliney to play himself, Greengrass guaranteed that he doesn’t look like a Hollywood actor. He looks like a real guy, a normal guy, and he’s totally natural about what he’s doing.
These small details start to aggregate, pile up. Because we’re seeing Arabs in hotel rooms from the very start, praying in their native tongue, we’re set on edge right away. Right away, we know who we’re looking at, and we know what they’re going to do. The question is when and how, and are we going to be able to watch when it does finally happen? It’s a question you might not know the answer to until the rough stuff kicks in. I saw people walk out of our screening and not come back.
Greengrass wisely focuses the first half of the film on NORAD and the FAA and the individual air traffic control centers, where we see guys gathered around screens, trying to sort out what’s going on. Planes drop out of communication first, then disappear from radar completely. The film was photographed by Barry Ackroyd, who’s got a long history of working in documentaries and also with Ken Loach, a very naturalistic filmmaker in his own right. Shooting this film on HD instead of film has allowed him and Greengrass to create their own style, working in long takes, but not in a gimmicky way. This just allows his actors to go beyond theater, to inhabit their characters completely. The film’s dialogue was almost entirely improvised, but all the actors were given any pertinent recordings or transcripts if available, and at the moments where it’s possible, the film is exact, precise.
By the time the film finally shifts gears and becomes entirely focused on what’s happening aboard Flight 93, an almost unbearable level of tension sets in, and I’d bet there will be no more demanding half-hour of film this year. Again... there is very little in the way of conventional drama. No big speeches back and forth. Even the oft-quoted “Let’s roll” gets thrown away in the middle of another line. I have a few small complaints about things that pull me out of the reality, like the casting of SLEDGE HAMMER’s David Rasche as a former pilot who is one of the passengers. He’s too well-known, too familiar. And there’s a touch I like, but that I question, in the final moments before the passengers stand up and fight back. They know they’re going to to do it. And by this point, the terrorists know that the passengers are planning something. And everyone’s retreated to their neutral corners to get ready. In those tense moments, people pray to Allah at one end of the plane while other people recite “The Lord’s Prayer” at the other. And for that moment, it’s a Holy War in miniature, and while I’m sure most of the people on the plane were praying, that bit of intercutting makes a stronger editorial statement than anything else in the film, and it’s the closest Greengrass comes to tipping his hand too far. But then when you see how he handles the very end of the movie, he reasserts his complete command, and he nails it. He handles it just right, and he manages to make a powerfully emotional film that is never sentimental, something I would have thought impossible.
So as I said at the start of this review... I’m not trying to convince you to see it if you weren’t going to. And I’m not reacting to it as an “important” film. I’m just reacting to it as a film, and as filmmaking, and on that level, I can’t recommend it strongly enough. It’s the sort of thing we’ll be looking back at years from now, and I think Greengrass deserves to be set free on anything he wants next. He’s earned it.
I’ve got pieces on MONSTER HOUSE and BEERFEST due later in the weekend, so I’ve got to get busy. Until then...
"Moriarty" out.
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Excellent indeed. Very well balanced and informative, I'll see this in the cinema by all means Mori. Thanks for the information :)
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the trailer and a handful of the reviews i've read (mostly on this site) have physically given me the chills and goosebumps. i can't remember the last time mere previews of a film, or even a film itself, has done that to me.
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He really knows what he's doing. Great review, Mori.
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And I'm definitely not missing this in the cinema. Sounds like Greengrass is truly a filmmaker to break the mainstream that has a real talent for doing things a bit different. If this film is as tense as it sounds I think that will turn off a lot of people.
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"I think you can project anything you want onto it" -
bourne supremacy sucked balls...that is all.
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http://www.toxicuniverse.com/review.php?rid=10006146
http://filmcritic1963.typepad.com/reviews/2006/04/united_93_.html
http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/review/2006/04/26/united_93/index_np.html
http://www.slantmagazine.com/film/film_review.asp?ID=2208 -
Apr 28, 2006 7:51:59 AM CDT
I think this will be the best reviewed bomb in a while.
by fluffyunbound
Over at Rottentomatoes, I literally can't believe the sweepingly positive reviews this thing is getting - but I still don't think people will see it. Audience perception of this film was formed long before it received any reviews. Those groans you heard when the trailer was run in theatres? That's the audience perception here. At least, that's my guess.
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If we disregard [as we should] any review that is negative because the reviewer is angry that the film doesn't focus on the "real facts of the massive government conspiracy behind 9/11", or where the reviewer is angry because the filmmakers are actually, you know, charging money for tickets to see the film, or where the reviewer is angry because the film made them "feel too much" [which may be the most stupid reason to pan a film I've heard in quite a while], then this film has virtually no negative reviews at all. I still think it will bomb, though.
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I'll be at the AMC Hoffman 22 in Arlington VA for the 9-ish o'clock showing tonight and invite any AICN'ers to come down and have a communl viewing exerience. I'll be the guy with the short hair & 4-day growth beard along with my hot-ass wife with the long red hair. I'll meet you at th ebar at Santa Fe Grill having a lot of drinks and the cheese enchilladas. C'mon done!
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u have been running down greengrass in talkback all week. what did he do to you?? he didnt rape ur childhood did he??
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I generally try and stay away from concerning myself with box office results, but with United 93 I've found myself intrigued by how this film will perform. While I respect your guess Fluffy, I'm going to guess that 93 ends up as a box office smash. It's really got the potential to perform like P. of the Christ did. Guess we'll see in a couple of days.
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It would almost be manipulative to try to score it.
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then this movie is exploitive of a tragedy. If the people who made flight 93 make a single profit then this movie is tainted. Everyone should have done it voluntarily and all proceeds should go to the september 11 funds.
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Hotel Rwanda sure as hell didn't donate any of their proceeds, even if they barely made any, which is a shame.
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The family members of the victims of the events of 9/11 are some of the best compensated victims of all time. Not to run them down or make light of their loss or anything, but there are plenty of hurricane victims [and plain old small-scale tragedt victims] who will never see 1/100th of the compensation the average WTC widow got. So I don't begrudge the studio the admission price on this one.
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What's the point of this thing? Certainly not to remind us of the tragedy, right? It doesn't offer catharsis, either. And it can't be entertainment. So...what?
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I disagree with Moriarty about NOT seeing this film if it upsets you. it's supposed to bring out our emotion! I haven't seen it yet but I guess the question I would have is, if you were on United 93, would you do what the passengers did? Sacrafice yourself for your country?
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I tend to agree with you. Considering everything that was going on that day I find it hard to believe that after finding out the intended fate of that plane, the government didn't shoot it down themselves. I'm not trying to diminish the bravery of these poor folks who were doomed by being on the wrong flight at the wrong time. But we all know that that the government is not above fabricating a story to boost morale in a time of need. I like the rest of the nation want to believe in the "Let's roll..." fate, but let's be realistic. I'll still see the film and try not to be a skeptic. I simply can't get that lurking ideology out of the back of my mind ever since this happened.
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because you know to a certain degree it happened. People saw Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor and cried even though that movie was garbage.
but for yackbacker, It goes like this, would you rather hear a story of passengers trying to take back a plane, and crashing it, or a story of our goverment making a decision and shooting a plane down. I think the families would rather figure their loved ones died with dignity, even if it isn't true.
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Apr 28, 2006 9:47:17 AM CDT
But it's based on fiction, therefore it has an agenda
by performingmonkey
I totally believe in Greengrass as a filmmaker, and yes this will be good but ultimately hollow because it's all BS.
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Great review, buddy. Lance Rock makes a good point above though. If this movie isn't meant to remind us, pick a side, raise money for the fund, or get all Hollywood and entertain, then why has it been made? If it's just to tell the story, wouldn't a true documentary be a better choice of medium? I'm intruiged to see how it does at the box office. And Fluffy, good point on the 9/11 funds. Peace out.
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I disagree with Moriarty about NOT seeing this film if it upsets you. it's supposed to bring out our emotion! I haven't seen it yet but I guess the question I would have is, if you were on United 93, would you do what the passengers did? Sacrafice yourself for your country?
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...it didn't take long for the conspiricy theories to make it to the board...personally don't really care...we definitely know that the passengers rose up against the hijackers and smashed their way into the cockpit...that's good enough for me...I'm definitely going to see this film, no matter how many knots I have in my stomach.
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But the audio tapes and black box make it pretty clear that the passengers revolted, and this led the hijackers to point the plane at the ground to forestall any chance of it being retaken. There really would not have been any downside for the government to declare that they had shot the plane down, if they had in fact shot it down. 95% of the public would have agreed there was no choice. Hell, the OTHER HALF of the conspiracy community accuses the government of deliberately grounding planes so that none of the jets COULD be shot down. So which conspiracy theory should I be listening to here?
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Like a previous poster stated, everyone's already made up their minds on this film. If you feel its too soon, and are sickened by the ham handedness of it, you will NOT see the film and thus not be able to review it. If you have no problem with these types of films, you will automatically love it because of the inherent emotion of said subject. Its a no brainer, people.
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I think we all know how it ends.
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change
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The audio tapes, phone calls and black box recordings show that the passengers did indeed start up some shit.S o, regardless if the terrorists then panicked and rammed the plane into the ground OR the govt. shot it down , does not diminish that valiant, spirited effort that makes them heroes( and I don't use that word lightly) of the highest order. oh, and you conspiracy geeks out there: If you had every question you have, fully answered to your satisfaction...you would simply postulate another thousand questions whose answers are being "covered up" by the govt. There's simply no end to peoples wild speculation.
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That the government has told us the whole truth about 9/11 is a moron. Anyone who thinks everything "loose change" says is right is also a moron. Hell, I'm a moron, too, but here's what I think: I think the plane was probably shot down, because it was the damn smart thing to do (let it crash into the capital to save seventy-something people who are going to die on impact anyone? Come on.) The hero story not only makes it palatable to the public, but it also absolves the military of all blame, so it's no wonder thats what we got. I don't think a missle or military plane hit the pentagon. What would be the point of that? I think that the towers were probably demoed, seeing as how they fell and other reports by some people who were there, but again, it was only done because they feared them falling over to one side or another and destroying much more of the city and I don't know how many more lives, which is understandable as well. As for this film, I probably won't see it in theaters, but I have no doubt it is a powerful experience and will definitely catch it on DVD.
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I think it's about the fact that they didn't just sit by and die without a fight that makes them 'heroes'. In the opinion of many people, it's better to try and fail then never to have tried at all. You wouldn't consider the emergency workers who died inside of the Towers heroes just because they died and didn't get to save the lives they went in to save? I think you would. It's the same thing for the people on this plane.
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Its the INTENT...not the RESULTS that matter.Whether or not they succeeded is no reflection on what they intended to do. If everyone did the the right thing ONLY if the odds of success were good....NO GOOD ACT WOULD EVER HAPPEN.I'm sure Mother Teresa didn't expect to wipe out famine...but she fed the starving multitudes anyway. And btw, there are somethings worse than death.
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I remember when I first heard about the people who were being beheaded by Terrorists. I was in utter utter shock and disallusionment about humanity for weeks. The fact that someone could actually cut off the head of another person was so horrifying. To actually have a person in your hands and take a knife and saw off their head while they are alive and screaming. What kind of a person does this? How? - I then heard that you could download and watch it happening. The person who told me about this told me that he wishes more than anything that he hadn't watched it. That it haunted him for months... that it still did when he thought about it. This was one of the toughest meanest looking fuckers I've ever met telling me this and he was almost shaken telling me about it. I was upset enough by hearing about it. I sure as fuck wasn't going to watch it. Why? Because it's the thing of your worst nightmares. It's the kind of thing that tramatised people. Don't kid that you see violence in movies and that it's the same thing. Grown up time here: violence in real life FUCKS people lives up for the rest of their lives. - Everytime I see the trailer for this movie. I am horrified remembering what happened. I think about each person on the plane... including the obviously mentally fucked up terrorists(and do you think that it's the selfish bastards who are in charge who do the dieing, fuck no, it's the poor people who's lives are disposable to the people in charge, it the poor people who do the dieing in every fight. fucking fuckhead terrorists leaders are as fucked up as fucking all historic leaders who send other people to die for their war, always are). I just feel gutted, ripped open inside when I think about the lives that won't be lived. Everyone who died, died for a totally fucked up fucked up reason. They should have got to live their lives to a natural end. Not be killed. - Reviewers keep using the word 'unbearable' when discribing the suspense. That's the important word to remember when thinking about why some and maybe many people won't want to watch this movie. It's the unbearableness of it. And it's not like we don't want to cheer on the people who fight to the last to try to save other people. It's just that the pain we feel inside for those people is simple too tramatic and unbearable. There's something pretty alright about being that way in my opinion. And for those with the strength or maybe just less emotional than some of us that can watch it... good for them. Moriarty understands this from that perspective. He's saying that it's obvious that some people, maybe many, shouldn't watch this movie if they feel like it's going to fuck them up, because it's going to fuck them up alright. - Thanks for the fantastic words about the movie Moriarty. This is why this is the site I go to for Reviews.
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Well, I watched that damn Loose-Change video and now I have gone from blissfully ignorant to confused/suspicious. I am not a big fan of these types of conspiracy theories, but this one is good. Give it a look and keep an open mind - scary stuff.
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I agree. I saw that video of the first guy that they beheaded a couple years ago. Nick...(damn, cant remember his name). It seriously was one of the worst things I have ever seen in my entire life. Even thinking about it now gives me the chills. That said though, I will still see this movie. I dont really feel like I need to, but I want to see it.
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then I know your an idiot.
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...you really are a callous douce-bag.
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Moriarity did a good jib of pointing it out. I found the movie r ather illuminating concerning the human condition. On the other ahnd people will read what they will into the movie. Thats the movies point. Its not that hard to figure out people.
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Sorry. Actually, I heard Greengrass this morning talk about the point of the film, and I was deeply impressed.
He paints the passangers of #93 as a microcosm of the post 9-11 world. While the rest of us were trying to figure out what was happening, they had to come to terms with the reality of the situation, and (with incomplete information) make a decision about what to do. A decision that would affect their lives, and the lives of many people whom they did not know.
The rest of the nation still finds itself in the same situation. We have a threat, we have incomplete information, yet we have to decide what do we do? Do we charge full speed ahead on the offensive, do we meekly comply with the demands and hope for the best, or is there some middle road. This is the biggest question dividing the US, and dividing the western world. Anyway, after hearing Greengrass I was very impressed. -
...and I was stunned by the movie. It really is powerful. As for the point of it? I must admit I felt the same thing. Part of me wanted the ending to be, dare I say, a little more Hollywood, a little more like a "victory." As it is, it's disconcerting. That feels right in a sense, but it also leaves you wondering just what it was you got out of the experience. It's unbelievably tense, so much so that as a film fan it would normally bring me joy to experience that kind of brilliant filmmaking, but I found I couldn't really appreciate that because I was too busy thinking about how fucking tragic the whole thing was. I left bummed out, but I felt grateful to see such a well-made film. So I don't know who will really enjoy this movie, but it is definitely an incredibly powerful film experience. I remember people describing their reaction to Passion of the Christ, and I reacted way differently. I thought the movie was an utter bore. But so many people had such a powerful experience watching it that I wished I felt that way. This is sort of like that to me. It's a really terrible feeling the movie gives you, but it is also just cathartic to experience something moving in a movie theater. I think anyone who wants to wait for DVD for this should reconsider. I could never sit and watch this in my home. The only thing that made it bearable in fact was knowing other people were there experiencing it with me (although Moriarty was constantly jacking off behind me -- a major moment-killer.) Anyway, it is an amazing movie, I think if it interests you, you should see it, but like Mori said, if you think it might torture you, you're right. It's gutting.
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what the terrorists did on 9/11 was an act of evil. It takes one inhuman son of a bitch murder a fellow human being on a plane to make a point to the other passengers. Naysayers...just don't go, okay? Enjoy RV.
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why did 95% of the families not collect thier 2 million pound compensation fund??
dont believe be? -
sorry i meant dollars-
now do you dont believe me? -
... because by my understanding, it cost relatively little to make. So who cares if it doesn't cash in? Mr. Greengrass made the statement he wanted to make in doing the movie, and by all accounts was not constrained by any of the Hollywoodesque cliches that normally beset a large blockbuster. (Probably the best thing that ever happened to a film like this.) But if you feel you want to make a difference with your money, you can. Take the $10 you were going to spend on popcorn, Coke and Milk Duds, send it to the Red Cross instead, and watch United 93 snackless in the knowledge that part of your experience with the movie will be put to appropriate use.
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According to the 9-11 commission report, Flight 93 was the only one where it seems the hijackers did NOT kill or stab people. Maybe it was because they were short one team member. Nevertheless, the fact that the passengers or Flight 93 weren't looking at crew or passengers lying in pools of their own blood may have been a factor in their summoning up the courage to rebel. The movie decides that they needed to import the pilot-killing stewardess-stabbing incidents from the OTHER flights onto Flight 93, making the hijackers on that flight more cinematically hissable, and the passengers more cinematically heroic in the face of such villainy. Supposedly there's a fictional passenger who wants to co-operate with the terrorists, who has to be subdued by the passengers. Another fiction, another lie, and not just a realistic attempt to fill in the gaps, but to paint reality with movie logic, and Stephen Segal motivations. It doesn't sound to me like Greengrass truly cared about trying to dig into reality and bring us closer to it, if he was willing to allow these falshoods about Flight 93 to enter into it. I'm sorry, this is a pile of bullshit, and I've changed my mind totally about the worthiness of this film.
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rediculous political opinion like some fat bastard who will remain nameless.
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Ever the writer in the riffraff.
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They repeat that mantra of "Watch.. please watch.. you owe it to your country.. just keep an open mind and watch.." and post with different names like they just saw it and aren't already a hard core convert, but the cloying language and the plaintive tone is always the same. Like scientologists, they know better than to cite the info of their worldview, because that could be challenged and refuted within the forum. What they want is for people read an argument about the topic and then some of them will be curious enough to watch it and a small percentage will be gullible enough to buy into it and spread the Gospel According to Puke, like a viral chain letter from looney land. The best I can say to counter this is if you watch the Loose Screw vid you will waste an hour and a quarter of your life that could be better spent watching Battlestar Galactica or memorizing lines from The Jerk. Or anything else that's not packed with deceit. Even if you hate Grey's Anatomy, women love that thing, so you're better off watching that show just to be familliar with its characters. That way, when a girl says she loves you like a George O'Malley then you'll realize that you're being given the brush off.
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Well said sir; well said. I have not seen it yet but I will be. Well written, indeed.
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Personally, I'm not sure Greenglass had any choice but to show both sides praying. We know for a fact that several of the passengers said the Lord's Prayer with a telephone operator before they stormed the hijackers. So, if Greengrass had shown that, but not any prayer by the hijackers, the message would have been that the godly passenges were fighting against godless hijackers. I guess he could have shown the hijackers praying at other times, and thus avoided the parallel prayers. Other than that, the only choice would have been to drop the prayer completely, but that would be a bad choice for several reasons. First, we know that the prayer happened, so to cut it would be to send a message in itself. Second, since the audience knows that the hijackers were motivated by religion, cutting the prayer would have sent the message that religion itself is evil.
I can't think of a way, other than the one Greengrass appears to have chosen, to remain true to one of the few things we know happened on that flight, while at the same time refraining from sending unintended messages about either the passengers or the hijackers. -
Good review as usual. I think you post the most perceptive and thoughtful reviews on this site, and you seem to be predisposed to the exact same types of films that I am. Looking forward to seeing this.
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"...Shooting this film on HD instead of film has allowed him and Greengrass to create their own style, working in long takes, but not in a gimmicky way. This just allows his actors to go beyond theater, to inhabit their characters completely. The film
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http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_042806/content/paul_greengrass_interview_excerpt.guest.html
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The diehard fans of Loose Change and Christian and Islamic fundamentalists have a lot in common. They all believe that they alone know the truth and that everyone else who doesn't subscribe to their wacked out beliefs is part of the evil government conspiracy or a heathen/infidel.
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What's most interesting about the conspiracy theorists is that it's not just enough to claim that the U.S. government was behind 9-11, but that they bend over backwards to disprove every single element which puts the fundamentalists in a poor light. The beheadings, for example. Talkbacker GingerTwit claims -- I shit you not -- that the beheadings were faked because "the hands of the executioners were too white" and that "Nick Berg was already dead" when the Americans(!) cut his head off. The conspiratards are mentally defective and can take NOTHING at face value, unless it purports to support their own political ideals. In the face of recent debunking, the theories have become even more outlandish. Too many people saw the planes for them to have been missiles? No problem -- the missiles were, in fact, cloaked in a "sophisticated holographic projection. How to explain real families whose loved ones perished on the planes? No problem -- the planes were forced down, the passengers removed and killed and then the planes flew into their targets as drones. See, even in their stupidity and paranoia they can't get it right. I'm sure both the "hologram missile" nutters and the "murdered passengers/drone planes" loonies can present equally "credible" evidence supporting both versions. The most hilarious (and obnoxious) aspect is that they'll claim to be applying Occam's Razor to the situation.
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You talk about how Greengrass 'nails' this film and that it doesn't look like it's 'shot' but rather it's all natural and real. How do you explain away the fact that we see the Arabs in hotel rooms getting themselves ready for the big day ahead. I mean, i'm not pulling and conspiracy punches here, but regardless of what's true to the official story and what isn't, how can Greengrass paint an image of this day, while throwing in what sounds like blatant conjecture. Of course I haven't seen this film, but I do wonder about any seeds it be placing in our collective minds. Should this film not have stuck closer to the harder facts of the events on the ground? How can it not and be considered a truely factual account without looking like hollywood tripe?
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The beheadings weren't that bad. I might sound like a total tool saying that, but I've visited a lot of gore sights and I can tell you right here right now without batting one eye lid - thats nothing compared to what people are capable of. Somehow this stuff makes the news though while really gruesome shit can go out of sight out of mind. All violence and death is ugly. No matter who the perpertrator may be. You just have to imagine it was you to fully understand that no one diserves any sort of brutal back lashing. From anyone. For anything.
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I heart Pazuzu.
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The bottom line about the conspiracy theory fans is that they believe that the federal government caused all the atrocities of 9/11 and not al Qaeda lunatics, even though the latter freely admit that they did it. The conspiracy theory fans are so determined to excuse Al Qaeda for the attacks and simply refuse to accept the overwhelming bulk of evidence that do not conform to their beliefs that they really are just as deluded and no better than the Islamic extremists, the Christian fundamentalists who refuse to accept evolution as fact and believe that the earth is less than 5000 years old and the UFO fanatics that are convinced that the government is keeping a flying saucer somewhere.
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...if you can watch Nick Berg getting his head SAWED off and not bat an eye...then you must watching some some pretty brutal shit. I only heard the audio of his death and it was bone chilling! The reason "this stuff makes the news while really gruesome shit can go out of sight out of mind" is because chanting "God is Great" while sacrificing someone in cold blood needs to be seen by those who refuse to grasp that human evil like that is the greatest threat to civilazation and stability in the world. Of course the media would have you believe it's the "imperialistic U.S" or some such shit. DOC PAZUZU...did Ginger twat really say that?? Un fucking believable!
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Go back to the Harry Talkback for the past discussion...it will be on the front page (even at the bottom) for a while. >>> Fluffy, your B-ite post on Harrys 93 TB was fucking BRILLIANT. Great shit man- classic post.
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"And if all others accepted the lie which the Party imposed
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To the class of idiots who comment on a movie, without actually seeing it, as evidenced by their comments such as "it's bs" or who still think the government shot the plane down, or who think it the movie is some sort of bush campaign piece, or who think like the idiot critic in some link above that because they didn't find a drop of blood at the crash site, that somehow this is fiction or some other such bullshit nonsense, I say this. Go fucking read the 911 commission report (yeah, I know, asking a TB'er to read a book is without a superhero's name in the title, or with nice color pictures and people talking in little bubbles above their heads is like asking a monkey to paint the mona lisa), watch this movie, and then politely shut the fuck up and go jerk off. You obviously need to get laid.
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Take the "let's roll" comment, and go see how it's used/addressed in the movie. Then shut the fuck up.
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Apr 29, 2006 10:05:01 PM CDT
Whoa. looks like I need to keep up on my conspiracies.
by 'cholera's ghost
Here I had thought everything had been debunked as hell but guess not. I had no idea the Illuminati-Zionist-Neoconservative cabal was so sophistiated. It is a blessing we have people working to unravel their misdeeds 24 hours a day or there would be no stopping them. I shant underestimate their capabilities again.
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Apr 29, 2006 11:34:07 PM CDT
Wow. If people are getting riled up over this flick...
by pewterschmidt
Oliver Stone's "WTC" should make for some _really_ interesting debate.
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i'd add one more point to your search for greengrass editorial comment. there's a moment early in the movie where the arabic prayers play under an god's eye image of a new york street that converges, then divides. perhaps i'm reaching here, but it could be suggesting the divergence between the christian and the muslim worlds that the 9/11 attacks inspired? just a thought...
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Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticisms_of_the_9/11_Commission_Report........
Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, said "There are not many editors eager for writers to explore the glaring defects of the 9/11 Commission Report. One would think that if the report could stand analysis, there would not be a taboo against calling attention to the inadequacy of its explanations. We know the government lied about Iraqi WMD, but we believe the government told the truth about 9/11." -
You went all the way to Wiki? And believe some guy saying "Well, since we didn't find wmd, 9/11 must be a hoax?" Hell, it's wiki. YOU could have wrote that yourself. Damn, son. You want to buy a bridge? Like I said, stfu, and go yank on your wang a while, or better yet, find a real, live girl, and see if you can have sex with her. People do win the lotto occasionally thanks to pure dumb luck, so, there's a chance she might just say yes.
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Apr 30, 2006 11:36:41 AM CDT
Hey Thylacine someone needs to read a book- and its you
by 900lbgorilla
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He fixes the cable?
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this is my reply from the other TB: Let's agree to disagree.
It appears that whatever I bring up you come up with an opposing talking point. It's well documented that the highest increases in national taxes came from Reagan due to the failure of the trickle down theory. The info I pulled came from The National Review, hardly a liberal source. Secondly, you can make a statement like dems "lie at their core" yet defend republican lies before I even list them. Bush lied about Saddam's WMDs, the uranium purchases from Niger, lying about "no one anticipated the levees (in New Orleans) would be breached" (he's on film being told days before). I suppose he didn't cut 22 billion from education or severly cut veterans benefits. Don't bother answering because I could answer for you - "bad intelligence, Michael Brown, no budget cuts just lesser increases." Someone else is always accountable but never this president. Hopefully the citizens will become better informed & vote in their best interests because it ain't happening now. -
I was watching the film for those moments that seemed to be too unplausible. Perhaps I missed some at 1st glance but the moment you mentioned (the arabs in the hotel room) didn't seem unbelievable. They showered, got dressed, prayed and left. Actually it was pretty vague. Yes, we'll never know what really happened but this was a close approximation of what might have been.
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It doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree whether it sypathizes for one side or the other. What the film fails to do and what I do not like about the film is that it fails to put actions of each side into context, like for example Spielberg did in Munich.
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"then this movie is exploitive of a tragedy. If the people who made flight 93 make a single profit then this movie is tainted. Everyone should have done it voluntarily and all proceeds should go to the september 11 funds."
*********
What you really mean here, of course, is "this movie is exploitive of an AMERICAN tragedy, one in which we have beatified every American victim. If you want to make tragedies about less important people, however (e.g. foreigners) then by all means go for it".
You fucking idiot. -
Don't forget to add most of the US citizenry, the house and the senate circa 1938 to the set of those who held that attitude and congratulated Chamberlain, my large simian chum.
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The main reason I can't buy into a conspiracy theory in which this whole thing was an ingenious deception arranged by the PNAC brigade is that said brigade have demonstrated in most spheres of planning and decision-making that they are utterly incompetent.
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"The terrorists got the job done, they killed Americans, no one on that plane is a hero."
What a moronic thing to say. Would you have said the same thing if someone had ensured that one of the flights aimed at the twin towers had been forced into the sea instead, killing all aboard? Those people would have saved thousands, even if not themselves. And personally I think it's a significantly better outcome having a plane hit an empty field that hit the Capitol or the White House. At the bare minimum, it is a sign of strength, resistance, power, an unwillingness to just lie down and take it. The hijackers on 93 failed their mission. -
before movie studios looked at the tragedy of 9/11 and thought, "How can we exploit this for profit?" Nothing is sacred. Then again, I guess it's no different than Titanic, the Perfect Storm, or any of those "true story" tragedy movies. Still, it rubs me the wrong way. Plus, what kind of movie could you really make? I mean, what those people did was heroic, absolutely, but they still died all the same. It's not a miraculous tale as if they fought back, got control of the plane, and landed safely. I really wished that had happened as compared to what did go down. I guess they did prevent the plane from hitting its intended target though, so that definately deserves praise. I just don't think a theatrical movie is necessary.
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...when IS a theatrical movie "necessary"?
And what DOES make this different from any of those other movies, apart from perhaps a shorter time having elapsed since the event occurred?
We need to stop treating 9/11 as the blackest day in history. Fifty times as many people died in the recent tsunami. I'd be surprised if you were up in arms about a movie based on that. -
The editing of the prayer scene seemed to show how everyone is human, praying to "God" in their final moments. And not everyone is praying in the back of the plane. I was really worried they were all going to hold hands and pray or something. I was wondering how the terrorists would have treated an Islamic hostage. That would have been an interesting dynamic. Love the conspiracy theories. Any more?
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this movie is a work of fiction inspired by and based on actual events - the fiction is what fills in the gaps in the events the movie is based on - like what really happened on the plane amongst the passengers - no one can really be sure - this movie reaches a reasonable conclusion as to what happened on the plane based on speculation phone calls and voice recordings from the cockpit - thats it - its just a movie - however controversial it may be - its nothing more
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... THIS JUST IN... undisclosed sources have just come forward to announce that the elusive iraqui WMDs have finally been discovered... they were found bouncing around inside of 900LBGorilla's gigantic flappy vagina... along with a number of hidden reagan era junk bonds and slush funds
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I don't care if it's been 5 years, it's too soon for this sh_t. This movie is a disgrace, because it speculates on dialog and is NOT AUTHENTIC. We don't know what happened on the plane and it's an insult to the Americans who died, fighting for their lives...against a bunch of raghead terrorists.
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Gawd people, look at the pictures! A little tiny hole punched into the Pentagon. Not nearly big enough for a 757. Where are the holes the engines made? Hell! Where are the engines?! A real president would have shown us every detail, left no doubt in the minds of Americans. Not confiscated every video that recorded the pentagon strike and hid them away or destroyed them and left us w/4 blurry frames of video. Instead we get cloak and dagger crap. Hell, national newsmen on the scene witnessed that there was no plane evident at the site. The evidence is empirical from the Pentagon to the tower strikes to United 93. Something stinks. People can lie and get things wrong but hard evidence or the lack thereof is so abundant at each scene to make anyone doubt. Everyone speaks of all this conspiracy evidence being refuted. The gov't gathered up all the evidence and shipped it off to China. Talk about covering your tracks. Something stinks. Don't need to be a conspiracy nut to realize that something really stinks. And what a coincidence that our gov't was training for just such an event on that day. How convenient that our trillion dollar defenses were told to stand down. WTF!!! So dont take the word of a few in here that bad mouth videos like Loose Change. Watch it for yourself and decide. The naysayers have bought into the corporate owned medias that have been cowtowed & coerced into looking the other way. Will you?
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"raghead"? - thats kinda racist dont you think? - the iranians that executed the hijackings and crashes werent wearing "rags" on their heads - or turbins - nor do the majority of iraqis that we are both fighting and protecting in our current war - if the terrorists were black would you have referred to them as "nigger terrorists" - and its not too soon for this movie - i lived in ny when this stuff happened - i worked about 12 blocks from the wtc - i was freaked out over it for a year - but i am ready to see a "dramatization" of the surrounding events - its not a steven segal action movie for retards - the weekend box office proved that - why exactly is it too soon - hollywood is part of the same capitalist society that is america - why change the rules for them - we went to war over capitalist principles under the guise of a noble cause - why not make a movie under the same pretext - its the american way - the most we (joe citizen/moviegoer) can hope for is that the movie thats made has some merrit - something we can walk away with that makes us think - i am a star wars fan too by the way
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I thought the hijackers were (officially at least) mainly Saudis, with a few Egyptians and UAE nationals thrown in.
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... thats what i meant... saudi arabian - but still - calling them "ragheads" is kinda dumb
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Unthinkable fake United f93 movie trailer here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-m59xj9jG0 -
This is VERY rare- a movie I find excellent that I CAN'T recommend to too many people!
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where its due. I just got home from seeing this. I assumed the director would slip up somewhere and inject some sort of political message in the movie..if he did, I missed it. I have to concur with Mori, there are no 'hollywood' moments in this movie, there is no one kicking ass, and there is no Ed harris sitting in the control room saying "not on my watch" So I think the movie per se, is a very good one. But I also have to agree with the other posters here. What WAS the point of this movie? The movie was almost clinical in its approach to what happened. There was no message, there was no soapboxing..so what was the point in telling what most of us already knew and/or guessed. But even though I don't have a problem with the movie per se...Hollywood is getting rich off this movie and that I DO have a problem with. I thought I heard somewhere that some of the profits were going to some charity organization...dunno if its true or not, but were I that charity, I'd refuse the money. The result was a very good movie..but the intent was explotative in my opinion....Bad Hollywood...BAD!!
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