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COUNTDOWN TO VENDETTA! Cbabbitt On MATRIX Sequels! Part Two -- REVOLUTIONS Revisited!!
Hi, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab...
I’ve had people ask why we published this two-part article. First and foremost, I published it because I am a fan of impassioned film conversation. One of my favorite early things I published by Mr. Beaks here on the site was a series on a Brian De Palma retrospective in NYC. He reviewed all of De Palma’s films, which was a blast for me as an editor because I share Beaks’s love of that particular filmmaker and his work. In the case of THE MATRIX, I’m fascinated by the way fandom built the Wachowskis up as the saviors of action cinema, then tore them down just as quickly. Sometimes, with some films, I don’t think the one window of opportunity for discussion about them occurs when they happen to be in the theaters. Your more than 300 talkbacks on the first part of this article would indicate that many of you are interested in the discussion as well.
That said, here we go, back down the rabbit hole:
All Of Life's Riddles Are Answered In the Movies
Issue 2
THE BURLY SEQUELS: RESOLUTION AND REVOLUTION
(Click header to go directly to the section)
”Are You From The Matrix?”
”Everything That Has A Beginning Has An End”
”Look Past The Flesh... And See Your Enemy”
”Neodammerung”
The Matrix Revolutions never had a chance. The collective disappointment over Reloaded was too potent to allow another sequel a fair glimpse, especially since it was released so closely after that disappointment resonated. The response and general investment in the Matrix trilogy was basically deflated by the time Revolutions came around, and that unfortunate truth is why Revolutions was unfairly plagued. The third and final film in the Matrix trilogy is unlike anything we’ve seen in movies in some time. Revolutions is a fascinating, if incomplete adventure that is sorely affected by its surprising unevenness, yet somehow remains spectacular and worthy. Most unnerving is how its flaws are unquestionable evidence that the rumors of the Wachowski Brothers reconstructing the film to please a wider audience are true. This unsavory truth is more frustrating than the worst flaw in any of the movies simply because it feels like none of us have truly seen the complete, absolute vision that the brothers initially created. Nothing is more irking and depressing than watching the flaws of Revolutions and wondering what it really was. And that unpleasantness is punctuated by the fact that so much of Revolutions is astounding visual and thematic storytelling done with such intensity and passion that you can’t help but enjoy it. When Revolutions works, it is undeniably astonishing. So astonishing, in fact, that it still challenges Reloaded and even the original in certain places. The Matrix Revolutions was poised to be the epic of the trilogy, but what it lacks unfortunately kept it away from that accomplishment. As released in theaters, Revolutions works effectively as an enormous sci-fi adventure, while concluding the philosophical thematic content on a particularly strong note. Many of Reloaded’s faults are still apparent, like certain choices with specific characters and unnecessary subplots, but the main focus is much smoother and concise, not to mention thoroughly entertaining. The narrative is taut and tense in Revolutions, and leaves a considerable amount of interpretation to its audience. Which is not to say Revolutions has no answers for the many questions proposed by its predecessor. One of the epic misunderstandings and downright bewilderments of this final chapter is how surprisingly unsatisfied audiences were by its supposedly ambiguous nature. Revolutions is indeed a conclusion to the story, and a conclusion that answers every single question posed by its two formers through imagery and sub-text, while raising even more complex and universal questions for the viewer to explore. More than any other film in recent memory, The Matrix Revolutions is a momentous achievement of visual metaphor and thematic symbolism, beautifully intertwined for a strikingly poignant finish to a massively accomplished trilogy.
“Are you from the Matrix?”
The very outset of Matrix Revolutions presents something completely different and new, symbolic and important. And it’s something metaphorically introduced as the opening demonstration of code literally explodes onto the screen. For the first time in the trilogy, a bright light of spirituality bursts through the regular green code of the Matrix in the form of a bizarre, unseen image before reverting back to the neon imagery that represents the world of simulation. This barrage of images creates a significantly new philosophical connection between the world of mind and spirit, which fused with body will represent the core thematic arc of Revolutions that wondrously completes itself. These movies of ideas are brought to an engaging and moving conclusion with a finale that provides the most interesting and profound thematic insight within its narrative. In fact, Revolutions is so completely filled with conceptual material that aspects of the adventure can be easily misconstrued. The layer of adventure that disguises the heart of the Matrix is where the sequels confused audiences, simply because the surface level of Reloaded and especially Revolutions is admittedly not as straightforward as the original. As a pure adventure, the complexity and uncertainty that livens Revolutions is certainly divergent from the focused precision of the original. And that change can be understandably disconcerting, especially if Reloaded was so stressing to comprehend. But the surface of the films, as spectacular as they are, do not define their success. The nature of Revolutions is what makes it the most meaningful and profound chapter in the trilogy, and that final daring scope of Socratic questioning is why it concludes so triumphantly. The many labyrinthine layers of complexity in Revolutions begin immediately, and the importance of each one escalates more and more as the story progresses.
Revolutions begins exactly where Reloaded left off, an effective touch that immediately pulls the viewer into the central conflict. The first two sequences almost act as a preface to the actual start of the film - reintroducing the characters and conflict, while alluding to something mystically unknown about Neo and his state of unconsciousness. The first few moments reveal necessary points of exposition, most importantly the very short amount of time until the machines breach Zion and the Oracle’s message to have Morpheus and Trinity contact her immediately. The Wachowskis quickly set things in motion, taking little time before hurdling into significantly poignant territory. And it’s almost surprising that arguably the most important metaphorical conversation takes place literally five minutes into the film. But, then again, surprise is key to this final chapter.
While Neo’s body lays unconscious in the real world, his mind awakens in another. A world in-between the Matrix and Earth, where machines smuggle programs in and out of their simulation. Basically, Neo is stuck within the River Styx of the Matrix universe appropriately retitled Mobil Ave. And what unfolds during his time at this secretive place is extremely important in understanding where exactly his journey is destined. His first encounter is with a program named Sati, a young child that informs him about the location and a potentially dangerous character called the Trainman. Most striking about Sati is how innocently human she is, particularly when she discusses the notion of home in relation to the Matrix. She is genuinely interested in why Neo left the Matrix, and identifies with his departure by explaining that she herself had to leave her home. This is the first indication of something unknown about the reality behind the artificiality. Something about survival inherent in all living entities, whether they breathe air or use electricity. And while a philosophical analysis of the trilogy is better suited for an experienced scholar, the following conversation leaves the viewer with fascinating insight into Descarte’s famous slogan, “I think, therefore I am” by exploring new depths into the machine psyche. The sequence with Rama-Kandra is one of the most intriguing and moving pieces in the entire trilogy, and a clear symbol that the simplistic notions of good and evil challenged in Reloaded are even more substantially different than expected. With Rama-Kandra, the Matrix is confirmed as a reality, and its complete destruction is absolutely impossible if the war is to really end. Rama-Kandra speaks of love, of purpose, of life. A program that values beauty above all else. Beauty found in his daughter Sati, a program without a purpose simply because she’s an entity created from true passion in a world that doesn’t except incomprehensible virtue. The Matrix is very real, and that reality is something Neo begins to understand as he discovers more and more of its seemingly infinite layers. It’s because of this conversation that Neo finally realizes a truce is the only way to bring real peace, and that stability is impossible without mutual harmony. This segment is excellently performed by all the actors, with some of Keanu Reeves’ finest work. Reeves makes a wonderful arc throughout the entire trilogy, and his confidence as an actor is more than evident with his work as Neo. Keanu is perfect for this material, and he brings strength, vulnerability, and tenderness to this magnificent role.
Intercut between the conversation at Mobil Ave is the meeting with the Oracle and Morpheus and Trinity. And while the material with the Oracle is unfortunately hurt by the death of the great Gloria Foster, actress Mary Alice does a commendable job of stepping into the role with almost seamless ease. The Oracle is more prominent in Revolutions than its two predecessors, so imagining Foster’s charm is inherent when watching the less talented, but still worthy Alice. The Wachowskis neatly write around the situation, giving a sincere nod to Oshii’s Ghost in the Shell in the process. During their conversation with the Oracle, more information about the Trainman and his connection to the Merovingian is revealed. The Merovingian is a fascinating symbol of power within the Matrix, and after the Oracle sends our heroes to rescue Neo from his clutches, Revolutions becomes strangely disjointed.
Enter Club Hell
Once Morpheus, Trinity, and Seraph chase away the Trainman (the ever amusing and always enjoyable Bruce Spence), they realize the only way to save Neo is to openly face-off against the Merovingian and his cronies. This section is oddly structured, with moments of amazing spectacle mixed with surprisingly quick conversation. The entire ordeal is extremely important and supposedly hellacious, yet it’s resolved with anticlimactic ease. It’s difficult to believe the Merovingian would hand over his treasure so easily when he’s such a pivotal character of force within the Matrix. Our heroes essentially enter the club, kill a few people, point a gun to his head and the entire conflict is over. It feels rushed and incomplete considering what powerful intellect and strength the Merovingian possesses. The brief, yet outstanding set-piece in the coat-check room is short, but sweet. The shoot-out brings an effective symmetry with the lobby massacre in the original, with a plethora of mind over reality moments of sensation. Most effective about the sequence is that it seems to be building tension - tension that never seems to pay-off. Once Seraph, Morpheus, and Trinity dispose of the coat-check guards, their real threat lays ahead: The Merovingian. And once the Merovingian notices their entrance, he immediately sneers at their seemingly insignificant efforts with his wonderfully egomaniacal air. He’s not threatened by their presence, and he’s certainly more capable of simply succumbing to the minor danger of a gun pointed to his head. The entire section is somewhat stilted, even with its moments of excellence and highly enjoyable verbal dispute between the opposing forces. Lambert Wilson does tremendous work yet again, even in his regrettably brief screen-time. He has arguably my favorite line the entire film with, “It’s remarkable how similar the pattern of love is to the pattern of insanity”, and gives a genuinely heartfelt performance as this fascinating program of power. Hopefully this character is explored further in another medium sometime soon.
What follows the strangely uneven situation at Club Hell is even more bizarre once Trinity and Neo are reunited at Mobil Ave. This is perhaps the clearest lapse of problematic internal logic in a trilogy with very little narrative holes.
“Everything that has a beginning, has an end”
Once Neo is rescued from Mobil Ave he returns to the Matrix. However, as far as we know, his body is still laying unconscious on a table in the real world. This question of how he’s able to separate mind and body is even proposed in the coming conversation with the Oracle, and the answer is intriguing and important. However, once the sequence concludes, we see Trinity unplug Neo from a console with every crew member of the Hammer surrounding him. This edit is extremely misplaced. When did Neo awaken in the real world and willingly re-plug into the Matrix? While it’s safe to presume all of this happened between Neo’s reunion with Trinity in Mobil Ave to the following edit to the Matrix, the sequence is marred by another problem. Once in the Matrix, Morpheus contacts Link in the real world, who appropriately asks, “did you find Neo?”. This question leaves the viewer to surmise that Neo is indeed still unconscious on that table, and did not awaken once rescued. Yet once his conversation with the Oracle concludes, he unplugs from the Matrix at a console! Let’s deconstruct this sequence of events once again in a more organized manner.
-Neo lays unconscious in the real world, unplugged on a table.
-Neo’s mind awakens in Mobil Ave. A world between the Matrix and Zion (real world)
-Trinity rescues Neo from Mobil Ave by evidently using the train from Mobil back into the Matrix.
-Neo still hypothetically lays unconscious on the table, while his mind re-enters the Matrix. This would mean that Neo can connect to the Matrix without plugging in.
-Morpheus, Neo, Trinity and Seraph are reunited in the Matrix.
-Morpheus contacts Link in the real world, who asks, “did you find Neo?” Morpheus responds, “can’t you see him?” Link answers, “we were reading something, but we weren’t sure what it was”. This obviously means Neo is still unconscious in a different room, unplugged, yet connected to the Matrix. However...
-Neo visits the Oracle in which he asks, “how did I separate my mind from my body? How did I stop four sentinels by thinking it? Tell me just what the hell is happening to me” The Oracle reveals that the power of the one reaches to the source - its origin. Sensible, and a sufficient explanation for the situation at hand. Yet....
-The conversation concludes, and Neo is unplugged in the real world, sitting at a console with everyone watching him. Trinity unplugs him from the Matrix, which mean Neo absolutely did awaken in the real world and re-plug himself into the system.
So this sequence of edits can only mean one thing: Something is missing. The Wachowski Brothers are too smart and too efficient to originally create such a confusing segment of storytelling. This muddled structure is even further evidence of this film’s seemingly incomplete material. That being said, the material on display still happens to be fairly strong, especially the delightful and fascinating conversation between Neo and the Oracle.
The information revealed during Neo’s final visit to the Oracle is exceptionally important in understanding the fate of key characters and the actual revolution of the Matrix. The basis of the conversation is in comprehending the significance of stability and universal balance. There’s a wonderful and powerful sense of duality throughout the entire trilogy, and that Yin-Ying philosophy becomes imperative during the final section and ultimate resolution of the film. The Oracle explores that essential duality that exists between her and the Architect, Neo and Smith, and the Matrix and Zion. If the war is to end, Neo has to find a way to redeem all aspects of the equation, and why redemption is the answer over destruction. But as the Oracle states, a powerful agent of nihilistic chaos is bent on eradicating all that lives in both worlds. And if Smith can’t be defeated, then all life will perish. The only answer in overcoming this fatalistic threat rests within Neo, and only he can resolve the matter by understanding his own purpose. And quite frankly, if that’s not spectacular storytelling, then what is? This is one of the best sequences in the film, and firmly establishes an epic forthcoming confrontation of ideological values.
To underline the importance of duality, the Wachowskis follow-up Neo’s conversation with the Oracle with a similar moment for Smith. However, Smith is there for another reason. The opposite reason. Chaos and power. The exchange between these two mighty characters is delightfully wicked and darkly enjoyable, with excellent dialogue and hilarious wit. Hugo Weaving clearly enjoys his character, and his comfort and confidence is intensely striking no matter how awkward his maniacal laughter is delivered. Once Smith has copied himself on the Oracle, the Wachowskis shift the next portion of the story to the real world and Zion, and before things get outrageously intense, The Matrix Revolutions faces its worst moments.
It’s interesting how both Matrix sequels follow a pattern of uneven material during end of the first act and beginning of the second. Like Reloaded, Revolutions struggles with unnecessary sequences of stilted drama and heavy exposition that never builds emotion or excitement as smoothly as it should. This stretch of plotting in Revolutions is hardly as unbalanced as some of the material in Zion for its predecessor, but it does regrettably slow things down. What works for Revolutions during this section is that like the original, the story focuses on a single ship and its crew members, Bane/Smith among them. The Wachowskis focus more on Smith interacting and eventually killing the humans around him until he finally reaches his prime target: Neo. Before their inevitable confrontation, the few sequences with Bane/Smith just aren’t terribly intriguing. The actor does fine work with the given material, but the entire subplot itself is rather tame and bland. There’s not a great sense of danger for anyone on board the Hammer, and when something fatal finally does happen, it’s not shocking or suspenseful. In-between this conflict, the Hammer locates the missing ship from Reloaded, the Logos, and Morpheus and Niobe are reunited. Neo continues to have visions of a path leading to the machine city, and finally realizes his destiny will be determined by whatever lies in that unknown place. Everything with Neo is excellent, since the main character is easily the most engaging. After he reveals his seemingly suicidal plan of journeying to the machine city, he shares another soft and effective moment of tenderness with Trinity. Carrie-Ann Moss and Keanu Reeves are wonderful together, and their emotional quest becomes exceptionally strong and powerful as they face the darkness of their fate. Not so effective is what happens to Morpheus during this section. He’s basically non-existent. His character has absolutely nothing to do beyond reacting to situations around him and give a touching farewell to Neo. And while that farewell sequence happens to be an emotional highlight of Revolutions, the majority of his material is empty and dry. Morpheus should be in Zion, defending the city from the oncoming invasion instead of appearing sporadically throughout this section. Niobe, however, becomes a surprisingly effective and important character, and the Wachowskis give her a particularly entertaining task of piloting the Hammer back to Zion without getting eviscerated by thousands of sentinels. Niobe was useless in Reloaded, but thankfully becomes useful in Revolutions.
The Wachowskis sort of plow through this section, almost like they realized how uninspiring and pleasureless it was. Each sequence moves decidedly quick, without tension or suspense building towards a pay-off. The Zion battle is clearly on the horizon, and things move as quickly as possible to get there. Unfortunately back in Zion, preparation leads to more unnecessary and dry subplots with pointless characters Zee and the Kid, although each character is thankfully reduced to only one or two lackluster sequences. Everything here feels excessive, especially when something fascinating is happening within the Matrix itself. Instead of exposition leading up to the battle in Zion, following Smith’s rampage and destruction of the Matrix would have been far more engaging. How did the machines and programs react to Smith’s chaotic spree? How did the Agents respond to Smith? The events destabilizing the Matrix would’ve been vastly superior than the preparation in Zion, not to mention more sensible in connecting to Neo’s ultimate aim. The main problem with this entire section is that the lead characters are almost treated like supporting characters. They’re set aside while this epic war is brewing, and that makes the viewer disconnect with the core emotional conflict. That being said, once the Wachowskis get back on track, things start to take off.
“Look past the flesh....and see your enemy”
Before Neo and Trinity set off for the machine city, a certain stowaway attempts to abolish their plan and very existence. The inevitable confrontation between Neo and Bane/Smith in the real world is an extremely pivotal sequence, albeit mildly entertaining. Because little to no suspense was built in this subplot prior to this moment, the fatalistic and emotional weight it means to carry is subdued. The overall sense of danger is ineffective since Neo and Trinity will undoubtedly survive, but what happens to Neo is imperative in understanding the final philosophical metaphor that essentially defines the trilogy’s thematic arc. Once blinded, Neo connects to the machines in another way - the most important way: Spiritually. Before decapitating Bane/Smith, he sees him as bright light glowing magically and beautifully in the oblivion of darkness. This introduces the final connection between Neo and the machines that once integrated will result in the absolute revolution of the story. Body, mind, and spirit have all been revealed, and that significance marks the final stretch of the Wachowskis epic vision. The rest of the film is soaring thematic content blended with astounding visual spectacle that completes the final pieces of the puzzle.
Like the chase sequence in Reloaded, the Zion dock battle simply speaks for itself. This enormous set-piece is easily among the most staggering, awe-inspiring segments of sci-fi spectacle since its first moment on film. The battle is fierce, epic, and frightening, and one of the most intense displays of visual effects in the history of film. John Gaeta, Dane Davis - hell, everyone involved with this piece of filmmaking did remarkable work in creating a deeply imaginative and atmospheric presentation of futuristic chaos. The Wachowski Brothers never tire of mesmerizing, and this entire section is what defines escapist entertainment. The battle essentially lasts until the very end of the film, and the emotional and visceral intensity continuously builds until a simply awesome climactic pay-off. Here’s an image that represents everything astonishing and horrifying about this incredible section of sci-fi mayhem.
Intercut between the battle is Niobe and Morpheus’ desperate race back to Zion in the Hammer, doing anything and everything to avoid thousands of sentinels on their tail. Niobe pilots the Hammer through the impossible complexity of a mechanical line in the real world, and every twist and turn is utterly flooring. The astonishing imagery and confident filmmaking demonstrate just how commanding and impressive the Wachowskis can be, and this sensational sequence never ceases to amaze on subsequent viewing. Truly incredible material.
The final stage is set for the resolution of the story, where everything comes to a triumphant conclusion. Neo’s journey to the machine city is yet another demonstration of the Wachowskis awesome imagination, with startling sci-fi imagery and powerful emotional crescendoes. The armada that defends the machine city is undeniably stunning, and Neo’s attempt to pierce through such a mighty force is epic adventure. Once Neo and Trinity crash into the machine city, that bizarre image from the preface makes its return - a mechanical city built of light and spirit ready to become one with the human anomaly created inside of it. By this point in the story, it should be perfectly clear that peace is the only option for Neo and Zion. The machines are too powerful, too smart, and too real to be utterly destroyed by an opposing force. The only salvation for Zion lies in truce, and Neo’s experiences in the real world and the Matrix have provided him with that understanding. The machines are not inherently evil, just another living entity that wants to survive in a cruel, unfair world. The destruction of the Matrix would only cause more harm to Zion than anything else. The existence of the Matrix solidifies a home for the machines and programs that peacefully inhabit it. This means the salvation of Zion will come through the salvation of the Matrix, and because of Smith, Neo has the opportunity to save both worlds to create a universe of harmony. Most fascinating about this dilemma is how Neo is uncertain how to achieve his goal. He understands peace is the only answer, but defeating Smith and bringing light (pun intended) to the world is still beyond him at this late point in the story. How he is to redeem the Matrix and save humanity is the essence of his purpose, and it’s not until his last moment of existence that he realizes the inevitability of his demise. Trinity’s fate is the same as Neo’s, and her final moment of life is significant and moving. She sacrifices herself for Neo, leading him along his journey with her intimacy and passion. Trinity’s love is what guides Neo to his moment of truth, and her final moment of tenderness is honest and touching, a spark of hope for an emotionally torn savior.
The Duex Ex Machina is the single greatest image in the entire trilogy. Good god.
“Neodammerung”
Neo enters the city of light and makes a truce with the spirit that dwells within it, an agreement that will bring freedom to both man and machine, save the Matrix and Zion, and unite body, mind, and spirit. Once united, the only result is bliss and peace, but nihilistic rage stands between that fine line of happiness and chaos. The final, climactic showdown between Neo and Smith is a battle of ideologies clashing together in the most metaphorically epic way imaginable. The Wachowski Brothers conclude their thematic arc incredibly well, with a beautiful sequence of comic-book spectacle symbolizing complex, intellectual literature. The ending of the Matrix Revolutions has been surprisingly misconstrued by audiences that felt something anticlimactic or unresolved. The fact is, everything is resolved. This is Neo’s story, and his journey comes to a significant and powerful end. His choices are what lead to a time of hope and peace in a world previously dominated by control. Neo’s accomplishment changes the core function of the Matrix. It’s not a system that enslaves at the end of Revolutions, it’s a real world for all that consider it real. The machines have a home without war. The humans have a home without war. This is exactly what Neo accomplishes. This is the Revolution of the story. With careful thought, this resolution is the only plausible and realistic conclusion for a story this complex and detailed. The ending is moving and memorable, and a beautiful way to conclude the trilogy. Neo’s moment of realization and purpose is one of the strongest emotional touches in the entire story - an epic finish for an epic journey. After war and battle, the only possible way to defeat his enemy is to succumb to inevitability and balance the equation. Destruction of his enemy is impossible in the simplistic definition of the term, but union of two identical, yet opposing entities will bring light from the darkness. Neo’s sacrifice is what joins body, mind, and spirit in all worlds, thus bringing truce, peace, and freedom. How long is that supposed to last? Like the Oracle states, “as long as it can”. A symbol of hope that represents both the greatest strengths and weaknesses of all living beings, and what ultimately balances the universe when destabilized.
The Matrix sequels are not perfect films, but they are works of genuine vision and should be appropriately commended for it. The Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions are escapist triumphs that explore fascinating depths of complex and profound issues, and that ambition is why they matter. The Wachowski Brothers are brilliant storytellers, and they deserve a proper acknowledgement for their vast and exciting imaginations. The sequels are intellectual undertakings that demand repeat viewing, but that confounding and inspiring nature is why they matter. The sequels request only one thing:
Free Your Mind.
Next time you’re going to try something like this, Cbabbitt, I’d advise you to take your time and really articulate yourself. None of this quickie book report stuff, eh?
In all seriousness, nice job, and let’s see how this talkback goes after the success of the first one.
"Moriarty" out.
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can we just move on with our lives.
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and approximately 250 of those questioned the point of publishing the article in the first place. seriously, this kinda ponderous overthink belongs on someone's home page or matrix forum, not on AICN.
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i get it, you like the film.
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fascinating if you're 15 and just heard of descarte, perhaps. really, mori, this is sophomoric film critique at its worst. you should be embarrassed that you're publishing this.
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There's an entire paragraph that just repeats "this film is deep and complex" in thirty different ways. Try telling us *how*, genius.
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You talk about "rich visual metaphor" as if it's taken for granted that the film is an artistic masterpiece. It's not. Far from it, in fact. And the reviewer obviously has different ideas about what constitutes a "taut narrative". Faceless characters that a don't care about fighting identical, cliched-looking machines isn't "taut". Hell, it's not even a narrative. We all get it - the Wachowski's have taken first year philosophy, and they chucked everything they learned into the films. That doesn't make it clever. In fact, the overt symbolism and iconography (Neo dissolving into a giant white Cross? Please.) is just amateurish. And don't get me started on their Hubris - comparing the Matrix films to the ancient myths and epics (Neodammerung = Gotterdammerung in the Ring cycle) is laughable.
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bullshit. the end of revolutions never makes clear what happens to the billions of people who are in the matrix. if they are all freed, how do the machines survive? and if they aren't all freed, how do they decide which poor suckers have to spend the rest of their lives as batteries?
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The matrix sequels are one fucking ludicrously overlong first draft of a sequel that Silver and Warners got hold of and green lit without getting the writers to rewrite it even once; or so it seems. We are always told American is the most obese country in the world, well the Matress sequels are the cinematic equivalent (just slightly ahead of Kill Bill). Somewhere amidst the 4 hours plus of convoluted, flabby, cliched tripe that is Reloaded and Revulsion (i know what I wrote) there is a great 2 hour/2.30 movie hidden. As they are though, the sequels massively disappointed the vast majority of the cinema going public for one reason and one reason only (and I wish blindsided Matress fans could understand this). THEY AREN'T VERY GOOD FILMS! And that's probably the most complimentary description I've ever given of this cinematic farce before.
And regarding the final climatic scene where the machines attack... "enormous set-piece is easily among the most staggering, awe-inspiring segments of sci-fi spectacle since its first moment on film. The battle is fierce, epic, and frightening, and one of the most intense displays of visual effects in the history of film."? What? They smash through the walls and then fly around in nice compact formations so they are easier to pick off? For me this was quite probably the most retarded final climatic battle ever "filmed". -
"Yeah, sooo.... Trinity dies, Neo makes a deal, sacrifices himself, the end. The Matrix is free. Awesome. Fatalistic. Duality. Seeya."
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Hem.
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When referring to the Zion battle you seemed to leave out the bit about it being unfocussed, overblown, far too long and pretty pointless given that it contains no characters we give a crap about (I would have thought that would be in one of the first screenwriting lessons).
This is that one lonely voice who just refuses to see why so few people liked this in the first place. It's not a conspiracy - they just weren't good movies.
Again Moriarty, I would question why this is here. This isn't discussion. This is mindless fanboy raving on films that have been left behind with good reason. As already pointed out, your '300 talkbalk' posts were not discussion, they were mostly questioning the existance of this piece.
Shouldn't every shit film get this sort of treatment? When is the 'House of the Dead was FANTASTIC and you all missed the point' article being posted? I'm still up for doing that 'Hell Comes to Frogtown' drivel piece too by the way. -
that guy is such an ass
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Thanks.
Ponderous navel-gazing and over-analysis does not imbue these films with intelligence.
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...is because neither side was wiped out by the other. That's what Hollywood and too much of the world would have you believe: that to "win" you must absolutely destroy your enemy. I'll bet that when Matrix 2 and 3 were announced that too many of us envisioned millions of humans getting unplugged from the Matrix at the end of the third film while the machines perish. And when that wasn't what we got, that's when the loathing started, because it wasn't what was _expected_. Neo could have chosen to destroy the machines. Instead he made another choice. He chose to drop the knife, and make a way for everyone to live. And I wonder if many people can really comprehend or understand what it means to make that kind of sacrifice. The depth and trueness of your life isn't measured by how much life you extinguish from others, but by how willing you are to let yourself be sacrificed for others, if it comes to that. Maybe years down the road the Matrix sequels will start getting the appreciation and understanding they deserve, because despite whatever problems they have, they make up one of the most profound morality tales of modern cinema.
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However I've always said the Matrix sequels weren't as good as the first one cause before they were made there was only one Ghost in the Shell movie at that time. I'm sure if they waited for Innocence they would have had more material to work with >_<
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Period.
The first film was a great honest-to god film.
The sequels were boring, self indulgent, and not satisfying. No amount of over-analysis can change that fact. As films they suck! -
...The people on the ship picked Neo up and plugged his body into the machine. it's one thing to fling your consiousness (unconsiously, mind you) to all these machine built universes, but it's a whole different kettle of fish to get out again. He probably stood around trying to get himself out, then said 'little help..?' so they did it the old fashioned way. duh.
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uh no. either humans are enslaved within the matrix or they aren't. the first two movies make clear that this is pretty much a zero sum solution, and revolutions simply ducks the hardest question of all: how on earth do the humans and machines make peace when the machines need humans for a fuel supply??? idiots who praise the matrix trilogy need to answer that one, instead of writing tediously long essays about how misunderstood it was.
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Well, I fell asleep on my Matrix DVD, did it matter after all it might be on TBS this week. As a screenwriter ( unproduced) director ( it
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Wish these two sequels had somehow morphed into something relevant while gathering dust, but no amount of wished for portent and fantasied deconstruction can turn these prententious sow's ears into a silk purse, Neo. Nor do indecipherable plot, uninvolving cardboard cyphers, and vacant gee-wiz effects make for good film making. They took a well executed, classic SF story, Neo, with fascinating ideas and scope and went nowhere with it in the sequels. Instead they betrayed the audience's trust to wallow in their own preciousness. One has to go back to TWIN PEAKS to find a more disappointing, insulting travesty to compare. Right, Neo? If they went for some simple big message about 'can't we all just ignore reality and get along', but failed to get it across in TWO agonized sequels, it's not the audience's fault. And Neo, likely the original version of REVOLUTIONS was worse than what hit the screen. They certainly didn't need the studio suits' help to muck it up, or apologists now to shift the blame. BTW, everyone got that Neo means one, right? And they were looking for the ONE. Get it? Ya see, you just change the letters around a bit after repeating it a lot. I'm still working on the cross thing though. They did manage to be sledgehammer obvious and utterly unfathomable at the same time, which is some kindof feat. Believe it, no one will look back on these last two in fifty years and think how underappreciated they were, if they're ever re-run at all.
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You've just repeated the same better-than-you BS that all the apologists come up with.
It's not that I was bored shitless at all, it's because I didn't understand! Of course!
Give me time to wrap my tiny mind around the concept of self-sacrifice and then i'll probably be right on your side!
We could even be friends yeah?
I've no inherent problem with any film but the fucking fans trying to tell me I'M WRONG in my OPINIONS really pisses me off. -
I think burried in these bloated sequels is one decent film. If someone had the ability to reedit them into a coprehensive single 2 hour film I would pay money to see it. Sometimes less is more.
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If I remember correctly, the whole point of the sequels was that Neo couldn't just go in, pull the plug and everybody would be happy. The Matrix may have been a prison, but not everyone really wanted to be unplugged from it. Both programs and Humans. Hence the reason why whats-his-name betrayed the Neb crew so he could eat steak and nail actresses, in the first film. In spite of its many problems, I think the Matrix Trilogy has value. But maybe the Warchowkis were stupid trying to make something different. People wanted to see Neo liberate the humans by force. Maybe thats what they should have given us.
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... all fancy dressing and no meat.
You have a lot of heavy-handed phrases, but ultimately they're saying very little. All of those ideas were suggested in the films but never explored. And the examples you've cited are so out open to interpretation that you can make Encino Man look philosphical. I respect your opinions, but honestly the Matrix sequels are just like the Back to the Future sequels: not well done. Underneath the technological advancements and high concept references, whether it works or not is where it all counts.
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From what I got from the end of the matrix is that the computers won and neo had done what all the neo's hade done before him. Neo represented a missing part of an algorithm a mathmatecal anomoly. Part of him was left in smith, thats what gave smith his rebellious nature. They fight they destroy/combine each other matrix wins. Math solved. Wierd ed... just sad. Your higher level of thinking is missing just one thing. What happens when the other side doesn't want or is not able to comprehend peace? Then it turns from everyone huggin to one side dying. I wouldn't have cared if either the robots or the humans had died but the way the situation was set up an ending of peace just seemed laughable.
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knowthyself, Ithink it would have been more powerfull if ther was no bloodshed and everyone died. Then heaps of bloodshed then peace and dancing..... to rave music.
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Star Wars (the original trilogy) had the same theme in all of the movies. Good vs. Evil, overcoming your darkside so forth and so on. The problem with the matrix is that they offer so much depth and different perspective that the ending just seemed like a let down for most people. How about this... lets say there never was a reloaded or revolutions. At the end of the Matrix Neo can rewrite code. Story over, machines lost, you can just imagine the rest going downhill for machines.
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The first Matrix movie was easy to follow, and an entertaining film for everyone. The sequels became too focused on geeky Matrix fanboys. It was much harder to understand and was just boring. People just didn't care.
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I'm wondering if my equally long winded point-by-point critique on The Matrix and its failures would be allowed as a thread topic? Yes? No? Oh well, on with the further attempt at white washing the failure of Revolutions. And the AICN hype machine keeps rolling, rolling, rolling...
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The very idea of determinism and its ramifications were crystal clear from the first movie. In fact everything that needed to be said, philosophically, was stated clearly and concisely. And with some flair as well!
But then the sequels came along and stretched the idea to breaking point, while, simultaneously, complicating the idea to a pointless degree.
Knowthyself is right, now humans have choice. But why the fuck would anyone want to live in the nuclear wasteland of reality when compared to the relative bliss of the Matrix?
Not much of a choice as far as I could tell. -
This is basically all you need to read instead of reading that bloated, lengthy, diatribe above.
- This is what's wrong with a particular scene in Revolutions.....
- This is what they meant, though it didn't really translate to the big screen....
- That was the best scene in the movie....
Awful. I agree. What a TOTAL P.R. piece.
I have no idea who this guy is, or who he knows, but he is obviously a friend of the W. Brothers to help hype their new film "V for Vendetta".
If the new film is anything like the Matrix sequels get ready for the word play....P for Pointless...B for Boring....S for Self-Indulgent, etc.
Reloaded and Revoluations are just overblown, self-important films that try to do too much. The simplicity and interwoven, thought provoking structure of the original Matrix were abandonded for this horrible film.
Sorry.....I don't buy it.....the public spoke...the movie sucked.
Now it's my turn. I am going to submit a post to Moriarty defending the political nuance and duality behind "Batman and Robin". -
Now THAT's a movie.......
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I'm also a HUGE DePalma fan and would love to take a look at it if its still available on the site. I tried searching but no luck.
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and how you were all simply too stupid to understand its depth and nuance.
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The neo-buddhist claptrap was really good! But there's... one thing I didn't understand. Did Neo have to pay to get into the machine city?
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To put it succinctly, I loved the film, therefore you are all a bunch of knuckle-dragging, ass-scratching imbeciles who simply do not possess a modicrum of wit to understand the majesty and grandeur of the film. I mean in the utmost respect, of course.
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... especially compared to the lunatic mess of MATRIX CONVOLUTIONS. I laughed my ass off throughout RIDDICK... I just wanted to moan during the MATRIX sequels. Now, BATMAN & ROBIN -- there truly would be a worthy experiment in retrospective critique. Easily one of the most astonishingly bad motion pictures ever made -- and I say that because it was on yesterday evening and I found myself watching in horror, thinking "This dude won an OSCAR a week ago..." ;)
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Yeah - I'll admit I did not think of the idea that the humans are free to chose their existence. And the whole necessity of the matrix for some people is sort of a larger critique on institutions and the need to be told what to do, etc... I like that. Just wish the Wachowskis could have been a bit more clear about it. Though the fact that they were not will not make me enjoy these films any less.
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First up, I'll agree with most people that Revolutions just seemed to drop the ball in comparison to the first two movies. Anyway, has anybody else listened to the Larry Wachowski interview up at Integral Naked? http://tinyurl.com/kltku To my knowledge it's the only public interview he's given since completing the movies and is definitely of interest to fans of the movies.
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That movie was pure romatic and comedic gold. It is because I say so. The rest of you are simply swimming in the shallow end of the gene pool.
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All pretty much ignored so that we can watch some character no one cares about shoot a machine gun in a big mecha for 15 minutes.
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... we don't hate the movie because it was so hyped. We don't hate the movie because Neo didn't save evry man. We hate the movie because it's flabby, unfocussed, self-indulgent tripe. The opening half hour is irrelevant and it's conclusion (the Merovingian just lets them go? Why would he do that?) is just plain stupid. It was an excuse to be in the Matrix (the only things from any of the three movies that worked). The final battle between man and machine has a) no character we care about b) is confused and unfocussed (like everything else in the sequels) c) has machines that don't attack but fly around in nice easier to animate and easier to shoot down patterns. And the fact is... the "real world" in all three movies is just not very interesting. It was always the moment where the original stumbled. "You cannot be told what the Matrix is, you have to see it". No, you could tell me simply. It's a virtual reality computer world created by machines in a cliche driven post-apocalyptic future where all the people were born sans personality with a typically impossible to win plight that we know they cannot lose. The first movie stands up as a fun action movie, but think about the philosophies in these movies and they all fall apart very fast. And to finish, I'll be generous towards the sequels, just to show it's not all hate. Reloaded has a couple of fun action sequences amidst its pretentions on intellect and Revolutions... well... it's not as bad as Rancid Aluminium so it's not quite the worst film ever commited to celluloid. But it runs it close. And that really is as positive as I can be.
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Here's a temp link to the mp3 of the interview. Enjoy: http://tinyurl.com/z9r5t
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Twice in the movie, Meta-Smith is unaware of what an individual Smith is doing. The second time is at the end; the first time is when the Oracle-Smith is laughing. The Oracle-Smith is laughing because the Oracle had said "I can't see past the decision I do not understand", i.e. she doesn't know what's going to happen after joining Smith. However, once she does, she sees what's going to happen (Smith: "I'm the one who will defeat you. We have foreseen it") and the ORACLE is laughing because she knows Neo is going to win.
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so billions of people remains hooked up to the matrix unless they're smart enough to free themselves? how fucking patronizing is that? and what's to stop the zion folk from going around liberating everyone they can find? or do they get a quote on how many they can set free? face it, the Wachowskis painted themselves into a corner with this whole "peace" bullcrap. the second renaissance set up the nice ideal of peaceful coexistence with the machines but Revolutions never bothered to make clear how it could possibly hope to work. instead, we get lengthy essays from pretentious hacks telling us how brilliant the whole thing is.
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The sequels are clear evidence that the Brothers wrote them on a place reacting to the success of the first film. Yes, there's a clever idea thrown in there, but as films they're a fucking mess.
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that should, of course, be 'quota'. fcuking typos.
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They are free because the Wachowskis say so. You have to free your mind to truly understand it. Now shut up, get back in line, and enjoy their genius!!
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The huge chunk of plot not in the movie but in the video game. The series of particularly poor anime shorts that explain the ideas. If you can't get the ideas into the movie by themselves then you're reaching too far and are going to end up making a bad movie... which they did.
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And how you dumbasses actually mistook earth shattering vernacular with clunky dialogue. You short-bus riding jerry's kids!!
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'And it
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Just wanted to add that tubby picks up on arguably the worst part of this article. It's like a bad philosophy essay. In fact, it reminds me of one I did 30mins before a deadline. Funnily enough my tutor loved that part...kind of reminds me of the rabid love for these movies(coming from the rabid fanbase that is).
And yes, I'm bitter. The first was was the dogs and they should have left it alone. -
And to thimk crap-flinging douche bags failed to apreciate the complex plotting and oscar callibur performance of Jean Claude VanDamme.
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He was downloaded into some guy that the Source had cloned to look like the 5 prvious versions (just a level of control). The oracle gave him a code to destroy the source but Neo decided to give it to Smith instead and bring peace through a truce. There ya go.. the Matrix in just a few sentences.
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I still cant believe you drooling, cow-eyed cudd chewers panned that movie. It was the cinematic equivalent to the Second Coming.
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Cheaper by the Dozen 2 never had a chance. The collective disappointment over the original Cheaper by the Dozen was too potent to allow another sequel a fair glimpse, especially since it was released so closely after that disappointment resonated. The response and general investment in the Cheaper by the Dozen series was basically deflated by the time Cheaper by the Dozen 2 came around, and that unfortunate truth is why Cheaper by the Dozen 2 was unfairly plagued. As a pure adventure, the complexity and uncertainty that livens Cheaper by the Dozen 2 is certainly divergent from the focused precision of the original. And that change can be understandably disconcerting, especially if Cheaper by the Dozen was so stressing to comprehend. But the surface of the films, as spectacular as they are, do not define their success. The nature of Cheaper by the Dozen 2 is what makes it the most meaningful and profound chapter in the series, and that final daring scope of Socratic questioning is why it concludes so triumphantly. The many labyrinthine layers of complexity in Cheaper by the Dozen 2 begin immediately, and the importance of each one escalates more and more as the story progresses. Cheaper by the Dozen 2 is indeed a conclusion to the story, and a conclusion that answers every single question posed by its two formers through imagery and sub-text, while raising even more complex and universal questions for the viewer to explore. More than any other film in recent memory, Cheaper by the Dozen 2 is a momentous achievement of visual metaphor and thematic symbolism, beautifully intertwined for a strikingly poignant finish to a massively accomplished series.
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Kenny Rogers was BORN to play Neo, dammit.
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I saw it as they put a plug in him while he was unconcious, so they could extract his mind from the Matrix back into his body.
That works for me. -
Im still laughing at the images of you guys typing up cheaper by the dozen and stroker ace. lol. classic
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and to think you big-belly neanderthals failed to see Howard's glory.
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I'm somewhat a little bit disappointed by this article. Cbabbitt it was a great effort but not as insightful as i wished. As the reaction of this talkback proves the article scratched only a few points of Revolutions and made almost only general (praising) conclusions which made it EASY to bash and attack this piece by every haters. Though the cinematic flaws were pointed out (perhaps not everyone) i think Cbabbitt left out many elements of the subtext and showing examples in the movie. But in the same time i can understand that this is "only" an article for a movie site and not an essay or paper for acadamic reasons. I really urge everyone who loves to bash the sequels for being "stupid, brainless piece of shit" etc. and "all the philosophical ideas were amateurishly handled" and "kiddie stuff" and that they actually "really understood" the sequels to rewatch the trilogy (especially Revolutions!) with the audio commentary by Cornel West and Ken Wilber.(yeah i know that nobody is going to do that but whatever...) The interaction between blue=body, green=mind and gold/yellow/light=spiritual world and many many other things critics and the audience totally missed and misunderstood will be explained pretty good throughout the commentaries by West and Wilber.
I know that the sequels were flawed but i think that they didn't deserve all the exaggerated hate. -
we simply failed to grasp West and Wilber's plotting, huh? Well, let me explain something: if a movie fails to tell its story in a convincing, entertaining, clear and concise fashion to the majority of those who've seen the movie, is it not possible that the movie itself is largely a failure? Anywho, back to writing my 27 page thesis entitled: Catwoman: the myths that destroyed a legend.
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Had to put it up on a header
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But in the end, the MATRIX sequels pissed all over what was established in the first film, and failed to have the guts to really deliver on what they set up. Endless talk in the first film about releasing everyone from the Matrix, changed with no explanation to "save Zion" in the latter two films. The W Brothers wrote themselves into a big old corner, and didn't have the guts to follow it through. How? Naked, freezing people plucked from their happy lives in the Matrix, dumped into a Nuclear wasteland, with Neo and Morpheus standing there droning on about how they saved them. The crowd then rising up and ripping those smug bastards to pieces.
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"The Wachowski Brothers are too smart and too efficient to originally create such a confusing segment of storytelling. This muddled structure is even further evidence of this film
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I'd pay to see someone try and defend that one.
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...spell my fuckin name right if you're gonna act casually familiar with my contribution to Western Philosophy. It's Descartes. Descartes with an 's' at the end. I can spell, therefore I am.
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Much like the trilogy I decided to wait for the final part before judging. Now here to begin.
Your argument for revising our poor opinion of the sequels seems based upon the assumption that we just weren't looking at the films correctly. We hated the first sequel because we were expecting too much because the first film was too good. I'll admit that any sequel would have a hard time living up to, but my dislike of Reloaded is free-standing and what parts I did enjoy were helped by my love of the original. My problems with the Reloaded are the same as your Moriarty, but for some reason you don't seem to find them important?! Any film were you can walk in 2/3 of the way through and enjoy it more than if you had been there at the start is a poor show indeed.
Reloaded should have been about showing that humanity is the bad guy, not the machines, but this story gets buried in the Animatrix anthology. Reloaded had the chance to break with conventional sci-fi and actual give a reason for the machines going apes shit against humanity, but unless you shelled out $20 on top of your cinema tickets you won't know that.
Again with Revolutions you blame bad feeling for the second sequel for the poor reception, and while people were put off the whole series a lot of people (myself included) were prepared to pony up the dough and buy anther ticket and hoping that - Like ROTSith - all would be good again. Where I disliked Reloaded I hate Revolutions because it repeats the same flaws, making some worse, i.e., Morpheus becomes so irrelevant to the point were he is just shouting out directions and that badly. Once again the problems are acknowledged and ignored as though the are gangrenous limbs that if excised will eave a health body, but the sickness is to big. The most enjoyable point in the whole film was when - for a few seconds - I thought the old plot twisting magic had returned, but it turned out that the film melted for real in the projector. -
The sequels were not nearly as bad as people are making them out to be. In fact, if you took a knife to them and cut out the annoying-as-piss minor characters and subplots and did some other minor editing, they'd probably add up to a damn fine three hour movie. However, this critique of them is shallow, shallow, shallow. It mentions things like "visual metaphors" over and over without explaining them--exactly how does Neo punching Smith in the face represent a symbolic clash of philisophical ideals? Just saying it does isn't enough. And "Chaos" vs. "Balance" isn't a clash of philosophies. The thing about philosophy is that it's organized and logically consistent--i.e. not chaos. And how can Smith represent Chaos when he's a self-replicating computer program? He is bringing ORDER to everything, while NEO brings the chaotic element of choice. And the two together balance the scales.
As far as I'm concerned, the philisophical underpinning is that all reality is a Matrix--nothing can be called quantifiably true, everything can be questioned. This is the natural end result of the skepticism that is introduced in the first film. We can't tell what's rea, there's no ultimate truth, therefore nothing matters. This leads naturally to narcisistic nihilism. Without a belief in something other than you, only you matter. Neo, on the other hand, comes to realize that there it's impossible to know any ultimate truth (as Smith says when he calles constructs like freedom, love, and ruth as hollow as the Matrix itself), but instead of despairing and succumbing to nihilism, he chooses his constructs. This choice is reflected in the end of the film, where peace means that any humans who want to be released from the Matrix will be. They're free to choose their constructs. -
in the article. He talks about Rama-Chandra, but doesn't mention the symbolism of Sati standing between Neo and him. He mentions Link asking about Neo, but uses it to critique the editing, not the symbolism of the question. I've already noted the Oracle-Smith laughing. He also fails to talk about the final conversation between the Architect and the Oracle, and the former's very ambiguous comment "I'm not human" ... and of course, he never mentioned why the machines really need the humans to survive, and what the Architect meant (in Reloaded) when he said "We are prepared for a lesser means of existence" (I'm paraphrasing). While I appreciate the effort, I feel there's a lot more that could've been said that would've driven the points home more effectively.
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You are the very first person I've heard on these talkbacks point out the obvious: that the story was really one of nihilism and anarchy--thats it. Heck, as far as Im concerned, that is the entire MO of the W brothers--thats what they believe in. How many times, in the matrix, did we have to endure Nietzsche? Its no secret that they skipped from the matrix directly to the similarly themed and plotted V for Vendetta. But hey, I guess you and I are simply too stupid to understand or support their philosophy, huh? We couldnt possibly have rationally objected to the philosophies inherent to the Matrix.
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The matrix sequels were actually a really good 3 hour movie stretched into 5 hours. If the fat had been trimmed, the story would have been a very interesting story. But of course, it wasnt, and thats why we're all here. Now, on with the flaming.
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You do realize that because Neo chose his constructs over "freedom," he pretty much upheld the rationalization of the Joe Pantoliano character and negated everything between. Oh well. On to more pointless examples of white washing
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Andy and Larry did not make Neo the militaristic messiah. And people are upset. Sounds like the another good analogy for Neo as Christ... Maybe I should rewatch the trilogy.
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Mar 13, 2006 10:31:42 AM CST
if you're going to claim to be analytical, do it right
by skinnyblackcladdink
what bothers me about your analysis is that you miss out the details. you shoot for the metaphorical explanation instantly, and that for you seems to cover up any holes in the actual narrative logic. it doesn't. a narrative must work within the confines of the "natural" laws it creates for itself, and you can't explain everything away by saying it's a metaphor, particularly in a movie that claims to be "science fiction", of the smart variety at that.
2 points: neo getting unplugged. the fact is, neo didn't know how to use the wireless in his jack-system, so it makes sense that they should help him get out of the matrix in a way that's familiar to him.
2nd, neo's "sacrifice". i don't think it was simply about "balancing the equation". remember the power surge going from machine city into neo? you said it yourself, the Wachowskis are too smart to not have that mean something. neo was a conduit, allowing the Deus to get to Smith, thus completing your "metaphorical balance" or "circle" or what have you. -
The stirring music that opens and closes Excalibur is Siegfried's funeral march from Wagner's Gotterdammerung, the final opera in his 4-part Ring cycle. I found myself a Wagner compilation with this 9-minute piece. And no, I ain't talking about the music you hear when Arthur snaps out of it & the remaining knights ride to confront Mordred, which I understand is by Carl Orrf. I know this strictly because of Excalibur - squinted at the credits and went searching; not trying to pose as a real fan of Wagner or of opera.
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The sequels are crap because it's obvious a trilogy was never intended. These douche drinkers had one good story in em, the original Matrix. Then when that exploded, they wrote two sequels over a weekend in between visits to the Dungeon and claimed it was supposed to be a trilogy all along. Seriously. No need for a fucking gigantic essay to explain why this and that was overlooked. The sequels are pieces of shit. End of story. If V for Vendetta is any good -- and I'm really not gonna get my hopes up here -- it's because the Wacko brothers adapted it from awesome source material (as opposed to pulling it out of their own riding-crop-whipped assholes). You don't see me writing a fucking book about how Speed 2 was unfairly harangued by the masses, because that film is an unredeemable piece of shit. Same thing here. You can throw out all the $20 words and film school gobbledygook you like but it ain't gonna change the fact that the Matrix sequels were a) written in 20 minutes, b) visually dreadful, c) an insult to everyone that bought into the first one and d) concrete evidence that these hosers are one trick ponies. Cbabbitt you poor deluded son of a bitch.
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I remember watching uncomfortably, the first Matrix movie and almost walking out of it many moons ago! I turned to my wife and said 'Oh my god! how bad was that!?' and she agreed. To our surprise the rest of the world went mad for it as if it was the new StarWars and I remained confused on the sidelines with a small group of friends (3 of us including my wife) who couldn't understand why no one else found lines like 'I know Kung-Fu' and 'there is no Spoon' and 'We need guns, lots of guns' Laughably rediculous! not to mention characters called Mouse (guess what? he's small!) and Tank!(yip he has Muscles) and CG Wire-Fu Bullet time Overload that stretched ones patience! Agent Smiths dreadful overacting as was Laurence Fishburn as the Cheesy, Chunky teacher bloke not to mention the crazy (crap accented) French Bloke and Colonel Kentucky the (Bullshit spouting) god/master or whatever he was at the end of the third one! Bill and ted as Jesus! Give me a break! at least everyone saw how shit the sequels were but why does no-one now realise the first one was just as crap!? the only ok thing in any of them was Carie Anne Moss but that's a small mercy in a 6 hour marathon of stolen material from far superior movies, shot thru like an advert for long leather coats and shades. I'll stick to Akira and Ghost in the Shell thanks! Real Humans look silly running along walls!
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If you're not interested in the subject matter any and all analysis becomes irrelevant.
Reading this article was like having a fucking tooth pulled so how i'm supposed to get through 6 hours of commentary without cutting my own dick off is beyond me.
It's our prejudice, we can live it! -
Why was this character reduced to practically reaction shots....He barely did anything in the film.
The Matrix movies are okay, but I can see how fans would be dissapointed by the last two movies...not enough answers to all the questions provoked.
JUST LET THIS FILM DIE, NO MORE REVIEWS PLEASE!! -
being tied to a chair and forced to watch Gigli, Stroker Ace, Catwoman, Howard the Duck, Batman and Robin, Street Fighter, Cheaper by the Dozen 2, Superman 4, Riddick, and Leonard Part 6???
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i would sooner sit through those movies and an Albert Pyun/Uwe Boll Filmfest than ever watch the fucking matrix sequels again.
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I didn't think the thing with the Merovingian was somehow off seeing as how his 'intelligence' could control the situation. He did believe he had control of the situation. What he didn't predict was that Trinity would go all suicide bomber on him, willing to allow every one of them to be killed, otherwise the odds were initially in Merovingian's favor. PLUS it seems that he wanted to use them for a purpose. They know where the ORacle is, and he had a chance to gain what he called her 'eyes.' However, it turns out that Smith is the one who gets them in the end and his power increases dramatically. When you play the game 'Enter the Matrix' and you're in the level underneath Merovingian's mansion in the dungeons looking for the Keymaker, there are prisoners in there screaming about their eyes, and it looks as if they're blind... Someone had explained this as being like in a game called 'Go.' But I didn't quite understand it.
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Wouldn't that then mean that Link could really see Neo in the Matrix but his identity or code or whatever has changed. SO hypothetically, they get that walking code to a phone line and let it reinsert itself into his body? It is interesting, talking about supposed missing scenes. Joel Silver had said that despite their large budget, they couldn't film everything the Wachowskis wanted to. He'd mentioned that the bros had storyboarded many crazy sequences but they got nixed, for example more things happening on the freeway, and also one scene of Neo flying to save Trinity where the 'camera' does some crazy bullet time around his body, even moving to his view so we could see 'ourselves' flying around the Matrix at top speed like Neo giving us a feeling of vertigo... Also, and I'm not sure if this is true... I'd heard mention that during the Burly Brawl, when Neo flies up to escape, one Smith grabs his leg, and another grabs that Smith's leg, and another and another, until there's like a human chain of Smiths holding onto Neo in the air, and other Smiths begin climbing up them in order to get to him... Man! Have they released another 'Art fo the Matrix' book for Reloaded and Revolutions? There was supposed to be one coming out, it was advertised, but... what happened to it?
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...is that it was the opposite of revolutionary. I sat there agog as every hoary cliche was trucked out before me. Crusty general and earnest recruit who wants to do his part? Check. "Kiss me, I'm dying"? Check. "That's impossible! No one can do that!"? Check. I enjoyed Reloaded, but thought that that movie's shortcomings were because it was only one-half of what Revolutions would complete. That turned out not to be the case, and I think I felt more let down than anything else because I defended Reloaded pretty vigorously to my friends. Oh well...
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too many words....too many words!!!
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n the official site, that image was categorized under VFX shot. I don't see any VFX, unless those aren't really Neo and Smith, but their CGI doubles... anyone confirm this? It was stated in interviews that the Wachowskis wanted to play around with us and may have inserted some images here and there just to see if we could tell the difference between the real Keanu/Smith and the CGI ones...
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Not to offend you or anything, but I think the key problematic words in your statement were "Wife", "Akira", "Ghost in the shell." Why are you watching these movies anyway?
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The ones in the Matrix, I assume, all died as far as I could see, when Neo exploded all the Smith's again. It's never been actually shown how the human with his body taken over survives, but I'd assume it's the same as killing an Agent who's taken over your body, the human dies. But in this case, the only one who survived that are the programs like Sati, Seraph, the Merovingian and the Oracle. But perhaps the humans on teh other hand simply have yet to be reloaded sine they are not inherently a part of the Matrix? I don't know. The Machines had all along it seems found an alternate source of power. The Matrix's purpose it seems is as an exile/escape for programs that want to survive. It's a refugee area. The humans are kept alive for, well ethical purposes, as well the Archietect seems bent on finally creating the perfect paradise for them at whatever cost, it is his purpose and reason for existing after all, he's cheekily found a way to remain of some use for a very long time. As for who will remain in the Matrix and be freed? Well there are those like Morpheus who prefer reality, and those like Cypher who prefer the dream world. Which would you pick?
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Mar 13, 2006 11:27:53 AM CST
Are the brothers blissfully ignorant of the fact that..
by cotton mcknight
people hated the Matrix sequels? Those movies were absolute crap.
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ready by the time the movie comes out.
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From one source I've read on the Internet, Link's inability to see Neo at first is because Neo has transformed from the 6th incarnation (the Trickster/Devil) to the 7th (Rama-Chandra) via his transit in Mobil Station ... he won't fully become Rama-Chandra, however, until he sacrifices himself (Sati). In the original (I want to say Hindu but my memory is failing me right now), the 6th incarnation (remember, Neo is the 6th incarnation of the One) and the 7th incarnation actually meet one another, and that is what the Mobil station scene is representing. ... Someone criticized the notion of "balance" in the Neo-Smith reunification. It IS about balance. Smith and Neo are the same individual after Neo destroyed Smith in the first film, but different parts. Remember Smith's speech before the Burly Brawl? "Then you feel it too ... the connection between us"; Neo is Good, Smith is Evil, but it is important for them to rejoin so that Good and Evil are balanced and not individual. Yes, there is a surge because Smith has returned to the source (accidentally), but that's the surface issue. cf Wizard of Earthsea by LeGuin for similar idea of balance and rejoining.
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Your entire post which WierdEd responded to was about how this guys opinions were wrong.. he's an idiot, his opinions are wrong and stupid, and look at me I'm popular because no one ever lost popularity on AICN by saying something sucks.. hooray for me. Ed tried to resonably suggest there was another alternative and you exploded as if he had done to you what you did to him... except he didn't, he treated the opposing view as relavant and with respect, something that never even crossed your mind.
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"either humans are enslaved within the matrix or they aren't. the first two movies make clear that this is pretty much a zero sum solution, and revolutions simply ducks the hardest question of all: how on earth do the humans and machines make peace when the machines need humans for a fuel supply??? " Wrong, it seems there is no absolute need for humans as a power source. The first movie seems to indicate this from the point of view of Morpheus (who by the way is being tricked), the second movie undermines that assumption. And anyway, remember the talk with Councillar Haman in Zion? Humans needing machines to live... and machines needing humans to live... can't we all just get along? Also see my previous reply...
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To augment Johnno's point: Machines need humans because humans created them. If humans didn't exist, what purpose would the machines truly have? It's like Voltaire said, if God didn't exist we'd need to create him.
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I enjoyed reading your take and in revisiting these films later.
While I found the sequels unsatisfying I did find something that made them better for me and pissed me off at the same time.
The game Enter the Matrix that came out when the first sequel came out contains footage from the wachowski's that expands and fills in missing pieces of the story. There are about a dozen scenes including the moments where bane/smith betrays and sabotages by activating the EMP and a similar trip by Niobe to Persephone (girl on girl at that) that neo took. I found that after watching all the footage I had a better idea of what was happening and was pissed that this footage never made it into the trilogy since it explained some things.
-M
If anyone knows where they can be found I would be interested. It has been a long time since I have seen them. -
The only thing worse than the Matrix sequels is a long winded two part opus claiming that shit really takes like chocolate pudding. All those articles did was preach to the choir. The attempts to persuade are laughable and condescending. Every few years I take another look at things that disappointed me: Phantom Menace, Matrix sequels, the Cure's Wild Mood Swings, and guess what? They still suck! Only thing to do is accept it and look for new things because life is too short.
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They used to be available on a website, I apologize for not remembering where...but I'm sure you can google for them. They're also on the Ultimate Matrix DVD set, but if you don't have it, it's not worth getting it just for that.
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I hated Revolutions when it came out. Last year, however, I stumbled across a few essays that explained certain scenes to me that I didn't understand before; I didn't like the choices the Brothers W had made. However, when I saw that the choices were made for a reason that I was previously unaware of, I revisited the movie and was able to enjoy it a lot more. Is it a great movie? Nah, probably not. But if I can change, and if you can change ...
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Mar 13, 2006 11:59:18 AM CST
And the theme of symbiotic man/machine relationships...
by silver shamrock
Is explored so much better in the new Battlestar Galactica without all the pretentious bullshit. There's some pretty meaty philosophical and sociological ideas in play on that show, and the producers are secure enough not to have to "wear it on their sleeve". Even the weakest episode of BSG is more engaging than either Matrix sequel.
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I'm learning some new things from you that I find interesting... I suppose there isn't any opportunity to discuss. I did have an old account at 'The Last Free City', but haven't been back there for years... mostly because I've been on and off working on an essay of my own, but I get too distracted quite often. Also I haven't picked up the box set for the commentary and additional behind the scenes, since I already own all the films anyway. But if I ever have some money to blow or they re-release the box set version on Blu-Ray, I'd definately get it.
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http://wylfing.net/essays/index.html ... it has a lot of good stuff in it.
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needs to be burned then buried. i can understand a cross media experiment but their reason why it tanked was that it wasnt what the fans were expecting. That it was too intellectual and complex. But then they sold out like a 5 dollar whore by making the fans have to buy the animatrix or a videogame just to understand their film. they tried to fleece the fans and make as much money out of them as possible, and as such they deserve all the backlash and all the hate when the fans told them where they could stick their shitty film and promotional tie-ins
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well to each his own. I never had a problem understanding what was going on, my problem was with the pacing and long fight sequences that didn't advance the narrative one inch. Years later, the pacing is still awful and the fights are still dull and I can't identify with any of the characters on any level. No "deep" paper will change that.
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You're absolutely right about all your points and i know that one of the flaws of the sequels are the pacing etc. But i do think that the Wachowski brothers really made an effort to show ideas and their points in a new way. Well aside of the flaws, is it the fault of the majority that they weren't prepared for the kind of a new way the ideas and subtexts were shown in the movie and that it was just too much? Perhaps the answer is YES! Is it the fault of the Wachowski brothers that they started to deconstruct the first movie in Reloaded to expand the understanding of the universe within the reality of the Matrix movies and make it complex and perhaps unnecessary more complicated for the audience and NOT to show it more easily? Including all the flaws etc. the answer is YES. I can totally accept the reasons why people and the critics hated the sequels and saying for this and that reasons the movies were just bad. And i totally agree. But what i don't agree is that the movies were just stupid action movies which they aren't. We can argue how well or how shitty the philosophical ideas were executed throughout the sequels to death.(especially in case of Reloaded it was hard just to accept the "babbling" and i think even in Revolutions the W brothers succeeded and failed at the same time to really make every tiny elemnts clear) We can argue whether these ideas are in anyways profound in any necessity for the story and characters itself or whether they are believable in the movie. We can argue about the exceptional cases of few individuals that just EVERYTHING is nothing special and boring and piece of cake when the viewer actually thought about them already in daily life, already in their childhood, schools, college&university, reading books etc. but i really don't think THAT REALLY THE BIG MAJORITY think about all the themes in the sequels and i'm sure that they missed (and me too!) too many elements. Well call it ignorance. And whether it's the fault of the director's or not it's true that you enjoy the sequels much less when you have different expectations after the first movie and when you aren't aware about those things.
But i think that many who actually pretend that they really understood WHAT'S really going on in the sequels and to say that the themes were still stupid and easy are either totally hypocritical and liars or one of the fews who are real deep thinking philosophers (which i doubt when u see the numbers of people) I wasn't aware about all the references in the dialogs in the sequels and though i still didn't figured out much i think many lines make sense in a more complex way and in context with the whole trilogy when you know the theological, historical or philosophical background.(And the rest is either just stupid babbling or i just didn't get it)
Bottom line: It's one thing to criticize the sequels to tell a story in an entertaining way and and that they failed. But it's another thing just to pretend and not to admit that we didn't understand everything and missed too many things and not to recognize the effort behind them. For philosophers like West and Wilber the sequels are challenging movies where they have no problems to see every detail and facets and layers but they don't see that the way it was executed was not always satisfying for people like us, the normal audience, movie geeks and critics etc. And for the majority the sequels moved in a different way then it was expected, bad mistakes in how the story was told dramatically, unnecessary characters, stupid action sequences after another and pretentious philosophical babbling etc.etc.etc. -
Was indeed the resolution of peace. Joel Silver etc. commented that the movie would be timely, especially with the whole situation with Iraq etc. However during this time it seems that America was not so accepting of having a peaceful resolution (I'm speaking generally here) over the whole terrorism thing, and instead was happier with the Return of the King resolution, with the image of Arrargon and co heading out to Mordor and bringing the bad guys down. Perhaps if released today that feeling might have a better climate, which may probably work for V for Vendetta as well... but I'm speculating here...
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I agree about the pacing and the fights in Revolutions; like I said, it's not a great film. But I really loved Reloaded, and my love for Reloaded was based on the Architect and his speeches. So my approach to Revolutions was: I want to see if the Brothers W could continue on that vein. And like I said, I didn't like the choices they made on the philosophical side. Now that I understand why they made those choices, I'm more forgiving of them. Are they what I would've done? Probably not. But at least I understand that they weren't just pulling it out of their butts.
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Hey, I'm all for impassioned argument, but come on - "Keanu is perfect for this material, and he brings strength, vulnerability, and tenderness to this magnificent role" - that is just pathetic.
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...yes, the trilogy was flawed. But I respect the Ws for swinging for the fences rather than creating some pedistrian "free the humans and attack the machines!" bullshit - especially since that just couldn't happen. Remember how long it took to correct Neo's muscle atrophy in the first film? What would they do - free the humans and roll them out in wheelchairs with rocket launchers? Also, I don't think one three-hour movie would've solved the problem. I think a mini-series might've helped; it's obvious the Ws are trying to cram every idea and concept into 2 & 3, and they simply don't have enough space to adequately explain everything. All three movies really push boundaries and make you think, the action pieces are terrific and the resolution the ONLY answer given the logic of the Matrix. Oh - and Cbabbock or whatever your name is - long words and dramatic exposition do not good writing make. Your abuse of adverbs is only topped by your ability to over dramatize just about everything in both movies.
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I'd agree with you about the bad practice of placing the story in multiple formats and then the majority of the audience feeling lost... However, as a fan, I got everything I paid for and willing shelld out for it. So I feel no ounce of hate whatsoever. C'mon... a video game? Comic books? Manga? That totally agrees with me! I fucking loved it! Finally, a franchise for me! You can also say all that shit about Star Trek, Star Wars, The X-Files etc. I can also agree with critics about pacing, acting etc. But if you're interested in investing time discussing and finding out about the references in teh film and symbolism etc. then it's fucking awesome! The Wachowskis totally played towards the hardcore fandom! And for those left out, it's understandable, however I got everything I paid for and loved the ride, and the story etc. indeed makes sense. It however, requires that investment. The first film was also not so well received as many think. The following around it grew around the time of the DVD release.
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...It exists as a bad, poorly conceived marketing tool to make a quick hundred million bucks off of what was undoubtedly a clever, exciting, stand-alone sci-fi action film. Warner Brothers is the biggest whore in a business crowded with whores- they just wanted your money- and Larry W (or is it Andy?) wanted you to buy his video games and Neo dolls so he could buy a new plastic vagina and a set of bondage gear. The Matrix Sequels are awful- anyone that can't admit that is most likely snared deep in the throes of some type of bizarre hero-worship. You are probably the same type of person that believed Lucas had an entire Star Wars Prequel Mythology scripted out in his little red binder. The Worst part about the Matrix films is that they pretentiously try to assert their greatness on you- Im not buying it! In a hundred years people will still be reading Ray Bradbury, they will still be watching Alien, but the Matrix Trilogy will be forgotten.
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the matrix trilogy is fantastic. ALL three of the them. there is not a single single film from the past 5 years that has been as original as the Matrix films. whether they are concidered good, or bad. they are creative huge, and somehow got made, in a system that is affraid to be bold and creates one remake after another. i would watch Matrix Revolutions over ultraviolet or shaggy dog ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!
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Maureen Stapleton died :(
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I was a fan of reloaded when I first saw it, and was disappointed by revolutions. Over time, I grew to dislike them both. The simple fact is, with the first matrix-I guess everyone was duped. They were overestimating what they were seeing. I doubt if a mainstream audience is THAT familiar with japanimation or *had seen dark city ; )* etc. They (and I) were thinking "WOW-this is the most mind-bending and original/exciting film I've seen in a long time." when we SHOULD have been thinking. "this is a great comic book movie. theyve brought manga to life." People didn't see it that way-they saw an ingenious film that was BALANCED,SUBTLE and mysterious. However, looking back, the warning signs are there-the sentinel that almost manages to take you right out of the movie-or the badly written crew members. Other than say 5 minutes of dodginess however,the movie was pure gold...a lucky strike? Now I dont hate the sequels- not at all- *and yknow,not to sound like a cock but ive read baudrillard and think I get the underlying references of the films* but they pale in comparison to the first movie. The thing is, NO-ONE COULD HAVE WRITTEN A SEQUEL TO THE MATRIX THAT WOULD SATISFY...not even the wachowskis...they wrote themselves into a corner in the case of the matrix movies ...LESS IS DEFINATELY MORE. The balance and atmosphere of the matrix was lost in the sequels-and the whole thing veered too much towards the comic-book side of things.... reloaded DID have great moments and I loved the idea that neo had power in the REAL world thus making him more than an anomale-but a messiah. I liked the idea that an audience just had to accept ...neo is powerful. nice parallel to faith. Like the guy says above, the military characters ruin the film a nd are so wooden. I also didnt like how morpheus developed (although like how smith did- *the concept of a real world smith was underused however*) I mean, how cool would it have been if the trinity,seifer etc were literally the LAST dregs of the human race....the last freedom fighters. SO MUCH BETTER! as for revolutions- really didnt like it at all. Little time spent in the matrix equated to a largely boring but pretty film. Everyone knew that the christ-figure neo would have to sacrifice himself to save the world....what if they had changed that ending? Ergo,inexorably,vis a vis: condense reloaded/revolutions into one film. call it the matrix 2 for a start...remove a number of wooden characters and unnecessary plot points/pop philosophical psycho- babble *except for the merovingian and architect* and youve probably got a damn good,worthwhile sequel. The films were flawed-not terrible but not great. But for such mediocrity to come after an incredibly well-directed and written original...it is not unsurprising they are viewed with such contempt.
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There's a disturbing vehemence and bitterness in criticism of these sequels. "LET THESE TERRIBLE HORRIBLE FILMS DIE!" etc. No, let people discuss them if they enjoy them. The Phantom Menace was spawning discussion threads for long years afterwards, and that film genuinely sucked ass. The problem is that most defenses of the Matrix sequels tend to be pretentious sermons like this one, which embarrass the rest of us who do like the films. I mostly agree with this reviewer, so why trot out these arguments yet again? To try and convert the haters, that's why. It's kind of obnoxious and it's not going to work. Disappointment with the sequels is still way too entrenched and you're wasting time and energy and preaching to a big fucking choir. On another note let me just add that anyone who makes their own personal edit of someone else's film has some serious problems -- fanaticism is the only way I can describe it.
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Believe it or not, I actually like the sequels. I will admit, however, that they largely failed in terms of pacing, dialogue, and what not for generalized audiences. Between you and myself, however, I love it--it reminded me a lot of Star Wars in terms of dialogue and pomp. I also admit that I liked the third one more than the second (largely for its Star Wars-like characters and dialogue, Dune-like messiah and complexity, and Terminator-like apocalyptic future. All in all, it works for me. Are there certain missteps? Of course. But I enjoy films and always give them the benefit of patience and whimsy. Call me sentimental, but its what I do. Now, I do make fun of them like everybody else here, but for me, I'm simply kidding and am big enough to poke fun (both at others and myself). Anywho, thanks for interrupting me on my 52 page critical analysis on why The Godfather Part 3 was misunderstood. ;)
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...with the sequels, yet they remain watchable throughout. Aside from the less-than-fluid narratives, the big problem is the absence of sympathetic characters. The audience lost touch with Neo when he flew away at the end of part one and the rest of the bunch (Morpheus, Trinity, Locke and Niobe) are charisma-free dullards. Why should we care about these people. Cypher, despite being a royal Judas, was a more likeable guy. * * * * The ongoing theme of the sequels is 'I Believe'. Count how many times it's said over the course of parts one and two. Write that number down on a piece of paper. Throw it away. * * * * And finally, why did the Wachowski's replace the late, great Gloria Foster (reasonably old black actress) with Mary Alice (another reasonably old black actress?). Talk about inviting unfair comparisons...
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Who cares? I've watched Star Wars hundreds of times. I read books over and over. I enjoy stories--whether literal or cinematic. As long as you have a good time, big deal. Even if you have a generic plot, as long as you throw in credibility in other areas, then its pretty much okay.
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One consistent problem I see from people who really *hate* the sequels is that almost all of them seem to have had some idea for what the sequels should have been other than what they were. Again, I absolutely agree the sequels have flaws, but it seems like those flaws are magnified by the fact that the first film so stimulated people that they came up with very firm ideas about exactly how the universe is supposed to work and the nature of the conflict. When those expectations were defied, they not only viewed it as a flaw in the film, they got actively angry. But I think the whole point of the Matrix movies is in that skepticism. They tell you from the start that you can't trust your senses. We are presented with a world, then told the world isn't real. We are presented with a prophecy of freedom, then find the prophecy is another means of control. Presented with villains, only to find that they aren't all villainous. Presented with a war, only to find that the solution to the story is in making peace, not winning the war.
The first film gives the faux-enlightenment of "we're all caught in a system that confines us." And that system can be anything, politics, religion, or just culture. Making that leap makes people feel good, it lets them feel superior to the masses. However, that's escaping one prison to live in another. Fighting the limits of your culture by joining in an equally oppressive counter-culture isn't liberation, it's self-indulgence. So Neo finds that the world isn't real; he then falls into the trap of thinking that because the Matrix isn't "real" it's evil. Now that he's woken up to the war, he thinks he has to fight in it. But in the sequels he finds out that one epiphany doesn't make you enlightened, you have to constantly question your assumptions for any hope of truth. People, most people anyway, are capable of shifting their paradigm, but almost no one is capable of living life where they don't have a paradigm, where there's no intellectual solid ground, no verifiable truth. People aren't comfortable with it, so they didn't want to see it in their pop entertainment. -
"The Oracle is more prominent in Revolutions than its two predecessors, so imagining Foster
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Well, i am an objectivist. As you can imagine, I disagree with the idea that their is no moral ground or truth. I'm not sure if you are a nihilist or not, but I have found that sort of thinking to be paradoxical and a moral/phillosophical contradiction (which cannot take place, logically). But I dont think the movie is an assertation of nihilism. If anything, the movie is pretty much an americanized example of chinese philosophy. Balance: too oposing forces. Smith represents nihilism and Neo is SUPPOSED to represent reason and faith. Personally, I think the W's kinda failed a bit when they had shown Neo giving in and then failing to portray that this was in effect a ruse to get them to join. Neo never really did give up fighting, but he kinda was made to seem as though he did. That's just my take on it (and I think its quite a few other people's take on it). Not saying I'm right because of that--just dont want to act as I'm being original or something.
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too and their instead of two and there!! Man i need to wake up. Spring Break is killing me!
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All that thought and energy about 2 shitty films
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You're right on that one. To me, what would've been a more interesting choice is if Neo, after Smith quotes the Oracle and is all confused, went up to Smith and took Smith's hand and pulled it into himself instead. That would've been more resonant.
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At the end of THE MATRIX humanity is enslaved by the machines to be used as a power source. At the end of REVOLUTIONS humanity is enslaved by the machines to be used as a power source. Seems like a lot of effort was put into a couple films in which NOTHING HAPPENS.
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Cause the second one had, um... more. You know more cars, more trucks, more Gleason. And an elephant is way better than beer. The third one was so great, you didn't even need Burt and Sally.
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Look, the first movie kicked ass. Alright, the fighting was cool, the bullet-time was new and exciting, and people enjoyed it. And because they enjoyed it, they were willing to dive into the philosophical stuff that the Brothers W put in there because it helped them enjoy the film more. But it was always the fighting first, philosophy second. And either the Brothers W didn't realize that (less likely) or they just weren't as successful with the action sequences in the sequels (more likely) in order to get people to enjoy the philosophy too. And I'm not trying to say the audience can't appreciate philosophy, what I'm saying is that a movie's first purpose is entertainment, not education or philosophy. And if someone doesn't find a film entertaining, more than likely they're not going to care about the educational/philosophical aspects.
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The difficulty in the Matrix Sequels and other works around them is that the realism of effects has outpaced our ability to realistically construct onscreen world. Or, you could say, it's outpaced the development of the ability to do it efficiently. The real world comes complete with much of this complex detail already arranged in meaningful ways. Fantasy and Science Fiction worlds come without this meaning ready-made, so it is up to the people making the work to work out these relationships. If they don't do a good enough job, characters will seem to coast along the surface of a story, and the story itself will by necessity be conventional. The first problem with the sequels is the self-conscious way in which the films are made. The second is worst than the third on this one, in that it seems to be more intent on topping the first in terms of the fights, the scale, and the complexity of the world itself. The impulse to top the last movie is natural, but it's an impulse that must be moderated by the knowledge that more is not necessarily better. Sometimes, its just more, and people know it. The second problem is that much needed exposition got shucked to the Enter The Matrix Video Game, much of it good material which would have explained changes in the characters. In Screenwriting class, we are given the command to kill widows and orphans in our scripts- that is, take out ends without beginnings to explain them(widows) and beginnings without ends to resolve them (orphans). By leaving unintegrated material crucial to certain relationships in the movie in the game, they created a mess of widows and orphans. Personally, I like the Matrix movies a great deal, and would love to see the material from the games edited into the movies to resolve some of those plot issues. Aside from that, The Matrix trilogy succeeds in not only creating a universe of its own, but creating changing perceptions of that universe within the story. The Wachowski Brothers should be given the credit for trying and largely succeeding in creating a fictional world where the hero's victory over evil is a spiritual one, where he fights not merely to win against his opponent, but to do the right thing.
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I am truly shocked by the hate for these films. I think this review is brilliantly stated. While I don't agree on every note, I have to say I agree 95%. Thank you for this revist to the films and I love them!!
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I know this because I never contemplated slitting my wrists during Revolutions. I was too busy plugging my fingers into my ears (well I did that during Reloaded too, but just during the 20 minute speeches)
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This guy nailed it! Yeah it takes time and it's complicated. It took me an hour of conversation and a good base of philosophical understanding to absorb Revolutions. The "big bang" at the beginning credits is the giveaway. But then, how do I explain it to others? I would have to write it down like this guy did. No one wants the answer to the "WTF?" question to begin with "Well, have you ever read Descarte?" Self-indulgant maybe, but come on! We're living in a secular world where modern philosphy never attempts to go beyond "we are insignificant animals at one with the planet." These movies attempted to show that spirituality is just as real as physics and math - and it succeeded beautifully despite it's faults.
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I don't understand where this hate comes from. In fact, the only place I ever hear hate like this is online, in AICN talkbacks. All my friends, who are film geeks themselves, all have hardons for them. They recognize some flaws, but also recognize the brilliance and significance and spectacle of it all. I don't know how this site continues to breed such hatred and negativity, but it makes me sick. I never hear anyone saying anything positive anymore on this site. It's all b*tch*ng all the time. Seriously. Why are you here? Why come to a site dedicated, really, to the love of film, just to hate and tear down? Do you really love film or do you just love a place where you can take out your own frustrations for your own inept-ness to get a film made? I am sick and tired of this. You all are boring and tired. Predictably full of hate and can never bring something meaningful to a conversation. This opinion does not extend to the editors of the site - just the huddled mass of intellectualy impotent "talkbackers". And this is not just because I disagree with people about these films. This is the same for every talk back on this site. *sigh* That's all. It's not worth my time. IF anyone actually reads my talkback, all I'll get is called names or told off, that's all you can do. Or you'll disregard my entire letter due to a typo or something and disregard content. You all make me sick.
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Several of us are having a positive thoughtful discussion on the film. Yeah, there are some haters in here, but we're mostly ignoring them at this point.
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Okay, let's do that again. I also don't beleive there IS no truth, I believe there is, by the very nature of the word truth. The question is whether we can ever KNOW the truth. I don't think that is possible, it's far too complex. I think the essential difference between Smith and Neo is that when Smith looks at existence and says "There is no purpose" (remember his big purpose speech? And how he claims Neo took his purpose from his by "freeing" him?) "there is no meaning", he has no way to respond. Neo, on the other hand, hears Smith's talk about how love, freedom, etc. are just as hollow as the Matrix, and he says "that may be, but I choose to believe in them." Neo is defining his own purpose. Existence is random and meaningless, and you can either take that as license for self-gratification or as a responsibility to give it meaning. And, yes, on another level, Neo was the chaotic element of "choice" balancing Smith's stifling, orderly, despotic nature. I don't think the two interpretations are incompatible.
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What they said!
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"The Matrix" was nothing that we have not seen a million times before in Joseph Campbell adventure stories - adapted brilliantly to the information/internet age. The heroes and villains and ideas of good and evil were very clearly defined and palatable for a huge audience: Machines = Bad; Humans = Good; Zion = Free; Matrix = Slavery. "Reloaded" was not as structurally genius but was more original and complicated and offered some interesting variations on the black and white machinations of "The Matrix." Nothing against either installment - they just both have strengths and weaknesses.
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I understand what you're saying. However, I think people are being unfair to the film because they are palcing their expectations on it rather than trying to figure out what the film is trying to accomplish. And yes, that is in part because the first film melded ideas and action better than the sequels. But the simple fact that a movie didn't do what you wanted it to doesn't make it bad. There are plenty of things to gripe about, but the fact that the plot didn't go the way you wanted seems, to me, to be your problem rather than the film's, y'know? And if people don't like it, hey, that's to be expected. So be it. But there is a difference between not liking something and that thing being actually *bad*.
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there are some. like yourself. but when I see a talkback, i feel like most of the time it is like 75% are just ridiculous haters. Fine. You don't like a film. No problem. But there is a sure difference between those who critically don't like a film and the messageboard "haters". I just can't stand them. --- But I guess I just have to deal. Or not read the talkbacks. Thanks Chrth for your response.
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Nobody, but nobody I know, even the most outre of my friends liked Reloaded and Resolution. They DID like Matrix. Maybe they had to work too hard?
Perhaps I was angry at these films because some huge and complex ideas were presented, but without sufficient maps and clues for decent storytelling, and movies are about storytelling.
Too bad that brillian special effects and a few good performances were so wasted.
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Nobody, but nobody I know, even the most outre of my friends liked Reloaded and Resolution. They DID like Matrix. Maybe they had to work too hard?
Perhaps I was angry at these films because some huge and complex ideas were presented, but without sufficient maps and clues for decent storytelling, and movies are about storytelling.
Too bad that brillian special effects and a few good performances were so wasted.
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Dont you hate that damn enter button? Yeah, I understand what you are saying. On a personal note, I actually do feel life has meaning and thus disagree with you, but I completely understand where you are coming from. You know, I think this is an AICN first: two people who didnt descend into snarkiness the moment a disagreement erupted. I guess thats what makes us mature, huh ZB, you nihilistic, leather wearing poo head;)
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...wannabe filmmakers and film critics who spend more time bitching and complaining about the movies they secretly wish they had at least 1/5 of the brain power to conceive.
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I wish I'd written this but I didn't. It circulated on the web after Revolutions came out and it's the best summation of the movie I've read.
Neo: Hi little Girl. Little Girl: Hi Neo. I can't act for shit, but I'm still better than you. Neo: Dude, like, totally. What am I here for? Little Girl: You're stuck in limbo, between the Matrix and the real world. We'll do some more obvious religious imagery later on. Right now, I'm gonna R-U-N-N-O-F-T with the mad pilot dude from Mad Max. * little Girl escapes on train * Trinity: Hi Oracle. You look different than before. Oracle: Yes, the original actress who played me died due to the shame of the boring last movie. I'll now repeat some nonsensical plot device which supposedly 'explains' why I look different. God, the Wachowski's suck. Trinity: We need to find Neo. Oracle: Well, you could just wake him up, but why not go to a bad S&M club and stare at Monica Bellucci's tits? Int: Bad S&M Club. Trinity, Fat Morpheus and Chinese dude like TOTALLY flip out on some badasses. They also enter an elevator and press the button for 'HELL' in yet more transparent religious imagery. Trinity: Give us Neo. Meringue French Dude: No. Give me the Oracle's eyes. Trinity: ? Monica Belluci: Aren't my tits ACE? Trinity: I'm gonna kill ALL you bitches. Trinity flips out and karate kicks EVERYONE, then points a gun at the French dude. Despite not having even primed the gun, none of French dudes bodyguards shoot her. Trinity: Give me Neo. French Dude: OK then. Audience: Jebus. That wasn't so hard. What was the point of the French dude? French Dude: To speak cod philosophy in a mad French accent, brainses. Monica Belluci: *wobbles breasts* Int: A train station. Neo and Trinity KISS. They then go back to the REAL WORLD. Neo: I must go to the machine city. ALONE. I need a ship to take. Trinity: I'm coming with you. Neo: Oh, OK then. They leave, in their own ship. Big Fat Morpheus and Mrs Will Smith take another ship. Back in Zion, there are lots of stock shots of mewling babies and crying wimmin. Some big walker things walk around, shooting guns from their fricking arms. Angry Black Dude: You're all supposed to hate me because I don't believe Neo is the new Jebus, so I'll shout and yell a lot. We have TWO hours to save humanity. Some machines get into Zion. The walker dudes shoot them. This goes on for several hours. Eventually a bald-headed Vasquez clone, also from Aliens, rescues the day with a home made bazooka. The audience is unimpressed. Mrs Will Smith does mad flying skillz, and nuclear bombs Zion, but this only kills the machines. Everyone cheers. Meanwhile.... Neo: I can see everything, as I'm the new Jebus, but I can't see that Agent Smith is on the ship and about to give me a mad melty face. Agent Smith: MWA HA HA HA HA *sticks mad melty electricty in Neo's face, burns his eyes out* Neo: Bummer. Trinity rescues him. They fly their ship into space. Trinity sees the sun and sky for the first time, like EVER. Trinity: Oh shit, I've seen something really beautiful. That must mean I'm going to die now. Trinity dies. Neo: Don't die Trinity. Trinity: I have to. Neo: Don't die Trinity. Trinity: I have to. N.B. This continues for several hours. Trinity dies. At last. Audience whoops and hollers. Neo walks around the machine city. Big mad machine could kill him, but doesn't. Neo: Hi Big Mad Machine. Agent Smith is totally flipping out. If I don't kill him, he'll kill us all. Despite the fact you control the Matrix, the people, everything, you can't control one stupid programme and need my help. Machine: OK dude, you go kill him. Neo: Fine, I shall kill Agent Smith in an SFX orgy of destruction which still looks like it took place in a disused set of Se7en. Neo is reborn in a flash of light. The light comes out of his heart in the shape of a crucifix. Just in case you didn't, like, totally get that he *is* Jebus. Neo kills Smith. Neo: OK Machine dude, I killed Smith. Now, what say you stop the other machines killing Zion, and we go get a beer and live happily ever after? Machine Dude: Sure, Neo. It goes against everything from the other 2 movies, where you've fought against the machines, but obviously the Wachowski brothers only wrote one film originally and have no idea how to end this one, so lets do that. Int: Zion, Morpheus and a mad killing robot machine do a high five, everyone cheers and yells. Dumb Kid: YEAH!! Neo like totally SAVED US!!! I told you he would. Audience: But the machines still rule things, you dumb bitch, nothing has changed. Morpheus: Verily, Neo is reborn. He is the new Neville Chamberlain. I told all you bitches. Oracle: And if you think that isn't lame enough, now's where I come back and set the scene for more sequels. Audience: BOOOOOO, leaves
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I love it when people go "I don't understand the hate!" "If you don't like movies, don't visit this site!!" You do understand that the people who 'hate' upon these movies are probably the ones who were most excited about them, right? That the unbelievable letdown of these films brought out a very real disappointment that evolved into anger and resentment? (Same with the Prequels, which suck even more) It's not unreasonable for expectations to figure into your feelings on a film. But I seriously doubt that the detractors arbitrarily decide to hate on a film because of the wait and high hopes involved. There is something about the quality of the movie itself that leads to such a vicious response... So you like the Matrix sequels, good for you, you don't have to look at them with disgust, as I do. You speak your piece, we'll speak ours.
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I think the main issue is that most (not all, most) of the haters don't add anything more to the conversation than " SUCKD!!!!!111" ... As I mentioned previously, I used to hate Revolutions, and I could still supply the arguments on why I hated it. And if I still hated the film, I would supply the reasons in a discussion, rather than just posting to register my dislike without explanation.
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Really. I appreciate the latter's efforts here, but Beaks is a far better writer. This reads like a high school kid wrote it. And perhaps that's the case. Does anyone really edit anything here?
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Well, I suppose it depends what you mean by "meaning" ;) I think the universe has the meaning we give to it. Conscious beings with awareness and volition give meaning to what is meaningless.
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Tron was just on TV the other night and holy crap... does anyone else notice the similarities to the Matrix sequels? The hero talks to a digital face... he has to fight a giant bad guy... and the whole point is to reboot the system. Seriously, it's all in there.
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It was utterly emotionless. There was no feeling at all in that movie. When Trinity died, I guess it was supposed to be sad, but nobody in the theater really gave a shit. Neo's connection to the source didn't make any sense. What, does he have a wifi implant? He just beams back into the Matrix for no real reason or physical connection? I think maybe this guy is reading too far into it.
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Look it up. *Doctor Who - The Deadly Assassin*. Its the story where "The Matrix" itself comes from. And it made its debut about 23 years before the precious first movie of this trilogy hit the theatre screen. All the Wachowski base are belong to Doctor Who...
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They replaced Gloria Foster because she died before filming her scenes for Revolutions.
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You are obviously haven't bothered to read the talkback where many ask the same question and it's answered.
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Something about the character Kid made me remember him as being called "Jimmy". I could have sworn someone called him that.
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I agree with the lack of emotional depth for Neo/Trinity. BUt it seems that the Wachowski Bros were trying to make the humans duller than the machine/program characters as those are the most memorable and charasmatic characters in the film... It's never Neo you like to hear talking, but Agent Smith. Neo is pretty much always the same simple questioning character since the first film. It is always usually Morpheus and Agent Smith in the first as wel las teh Oracle, in teh sequels, it's the ORacle, Merovingian, PErsephone, and of course Agent Smith as usual... you just love to hear him open his mouth. I beleive a similar comparison is made in Blade Runner, where the real humans are ironically the dullest characters. It's been a long time since I saw that one... The style of teh matrix seems to be like those of Ghost in the Shell and Innocence, where the ideologies and philosophy takes precedence over the characterizations.
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i mean....."Neo
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That's the same reason I cannot stand Atlas shrugged, or any other philosophy-disguised-as fiction novel/movie/etc. The characters are often simply mouth pieces and it gets old REEEAALLL fast.
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We needed some gunfights to wake us up from the dull kung-fu battles.
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Absolutely brilliant pair of articles, more of these please!
Ty^ -
and like someone said in the past talkback, thats absolute failure in my book
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jasher78...i can tell you where the hate comes from. mommy didn't love them enough and they're too busy posting on AICN TBs to go out and find a woman. the fact that these people can't get it together enough to read something that is more that 7 sentences long...should tell you something. all of these boys would rather cry "plant!" than actually read the articles and see that the writer actually talks more about the flaws within the sequels (yes, boys...there is no "a" in the word) than anything else. remember...this is the crowd that loves it when Quint and Harry talk about how certain movies or women or whatever make them "drool" or "cream themselves". seriously...it's time that the non-slobbering fanboy-like film fan of AICN realize that they are the least represented on this site...and the types that live here, on the TBs, aren't necessary worth the bandwidth they take up.
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Keanu's acting! Theres more emotion in a piece of cheese and the CGI? Wheres Harryhausen when you need him to improve shite effects! As for the "spectacular storytelling", I enjoyed Stealth more...(oooh, burn!)
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"The final, climactic showdown between Neo and Smith is a battle of ideologies clashing together in the most metaphorically epic way imaginable. The Wachowski Brothers conclude their thematic arc incredibly well, with a beautiful sequence of comic-book spectacle symbolizing complex, intellectual literature."
did i read correctly? this guy is comparing the horrible cgi'ed dragon ball z style fight WITH COMPLEX INTELLECTUAL LITERATURE????????
dude i think you're seriously hallucinating -
moondoggy2u: Well i enjoyed the sequels, too.Hell, i have even the trilogy box but i wouldn't say that i really "love" them. It's more a love&hate thing and a little bit frustration that the sequels don't run fluidly like the first one and spending too much time in useless characters (and a few other things).
ipcheck, misnomer: Absolutely agree. The W brothers crammed too many things into the sequels i guess. And many of us couldn't either recognize and rationalize everything or lacked the knowledge about all the different backround or thought it was just babbling sth. or everything together. As i said that many things become clearer when you see the sequels with the commentary by West and Wilber but that's the problem. Why do i have to be a fucking brainy philosopher so i can "get" the sequels. Why do i need so much knowledge. Why do i have to listen to a commentary so i can enjoy much more the sequels? I think the W brothers demand too much from the audience to really appreciate Reloaded and Revolutions. Many people didn't get all the little hints in the first movie either but 1. it worked great as a movie in many terms and 2. the big themes were laid down more clearly so you could easily follow and understand them following Neo who discovers everything. In the sequels you have the feeling that Neo is just a philosophical instrument by the Ws to play with and to make their points.
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The W brothers dropped the ball and no amount of overanalysing will change that. The same kind of mentality that makes a blank canvas an arthouse masterpiece does not make an overblown disjointed mess a film master piece. And no bitchin about why Mor posted this. It was a good read if just for the flame factor.
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First off, let me establish that I liked the Matrix back when it was called Ghost in the Shell, Dark City and every other Sci-Fi and Anime title out there that the Wachowski's ripped off. Second, Neo and Trinity are "wonderful together, and their emotional quest becomes exceptionally strong and powerful as they face the darkness of their fate" What?! Welcome to the 2006 worst film couple awards, first prize goes to Padme and Anakin, Neo and Trinity come in as close second. Your analyziz is biased, as films, both sequels fail and why am I even writing this?! Matrix was good, Reloaded resucked and Revolutions was too little too late.
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I forgot about the shitty philosophy behind it. It was nothing I didn't learn in intro to Philoshy last semester. Thanks, it helped me get a B in the class.
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Not "Are you a f-king idiot," but rather a permutation of that. Basically, can you look past the superficial and the herd mentality to see the true qualities of things? Movies, specifically? ......Entertainment hits or misses, it is true. And like a meal great ingredients can be spoiled by bad preparation. Great preparation can be spoiled by an over or under-abundance of an ingredient. ......We are not, as consumers, obligated to reward shortcomings, but if we claim to be connoisseurs we are liars, if we cannot recognize component quality. In what, in the case of the Matrix sequels and in my opinion the original too, is a mess.
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the contrived convoluted plot. The main failure of the sequals was one of simple moviemaking. Indulgent is the key word. I've watched Reloaded many times on DVD, and its pretty good if you just skip past the Zion scenes. The whole hippy aspect of Zion is embarrasing AND simply a failure with regards to production design. As for Zion...who are all these people we care nothing about? Too many 50-ish angry generals/leaders. And the special effects were simply too busy. I read an article in Cinefex magazine that the VFX people were begging the directors to tone down the fight scenes. Just being able to put a million squiddies in a scene does NOT mean it should be done. Those scenes are difficult to watch. The first sci-fi film I remember overdoing it with regards to #'s of ships was Return of the Jedi. Revolutions continues this poor decision, along with the Star Wars prequals. I miss the beauty of shots like the single Nostromo in Alien, as it approaches the ringed planet. Sure these war films require more numbers, but how many more. Such shots, with their inherent unbelievability, drain VFX scenes of their impact. Does anyone see these VFX shots and think of them as REAL? Less IS more. That should be the filmaker's motto for the next few years.
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cancer?
bullshit..... -
when Neo wakes up after being shot, the choral music kicks in and he defeats Smith effortlessly, right? Remember the adrenaline rush, the feeling of fucking joy that Neo ressurrected and went became totally fucking badass. Well as simple as it may be that's what I wanted from the sequels. it's what everybody wanted, the Wachowski's crafted one of the most exhilirating finales in cinema history. The sequels rubbished everything people loved about the first film. Yeh they may have given us more complex (but undoutedly messy)sequels but we invested in the characters so much because their story in the original was so much fun. Making Morpheus nothing more than fool, someone who fell for the machines trick, making Neo nothing more than an anomaly ruined everything people loved in the Matrix universe.
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Hey, I totally agree with you: the movies failed to illustrate their points. You only get it if there is a huuuge amount of suposition. But get it or no, the movies had a slew of problems with them. I like them, but then I have a high tolerance for flawed films. Believe it or no, I immensely enjoyed Phantom Menace, just to give you an idea of my tolerance levels.
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Everything this guy says is wrong wrong wrong. The movies were bad, the majority of the audience feels that way, and you offer no inteligent insight into the contrary. Just "this is a deep and complex masterpiece that should be praised" over and over. My theory is the Wachowski's buckled under the pressure of the run-away success of the first movie. The result is psuedo intellectial CGI fests that don't deserve a second look. But go ahead and pat them on the back for it...
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The first matrix rocked cos it had like kung-fu and shit and chicks in leather.....yeah baby.
Thats what the next two should have been. More kung-fu. More slo-mo kung-fu. A total of eight hours of kung-fu fighting and whizzing bullets would have been swell.
And then if they do a series. Guess what....kung-fuckin-fu. 5 seasons of 22 episodes kung-fu slo-mo fighting. Wouldn't want it to get boring so Neo could kick in a different guy in a black suit each week.
Screw all the metaphorical shit and classical references and shit...that stuffs for pussies.
Just gawdamned slo-mo-bullet-time-wire-kicking-kung-fu.
But not like kill bill vol 2. All that talky shit dragged on.
You know what would have made it better. More..................
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...of one of your most beloved characters, you have failed. Seriously, that is the worst death scene in cinema history, and all the special effects spectacle and sci-fi philosophizing in the world couldn't redeem it. I will say this, though: that music accompanying the Smith/Neo battle and the end credits was awesome.
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the scene where Human Smith and Neo fight in the real world. Odd how that fight, devoid of wirefu or special effects, rang far truer and was more suspenseful than anything else in the entire flick.
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You know, I respect this guy for acknowledging the flaws in two of his favorite films, for trying to present a passionate, well-reasoned argument regarding their quality, and for getting something out of the films that I didn't. Frankly, though, if you have to publish an article (Two extremely long parts, no less!) about why a movie didn't suck, despite what everyone thought, then it's probably a bad movie, man. Shiny Happy Rainbow Girl does not a good conclusion make. A film should speak for itself, and that includes acquitting itself from criticism. To Cbabbitt: You're passionate about what you like, and I respect that. Just know that I disagree, for what that's worth.
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DarthCorleone.....we heard you when you said that the first time. in the Reloaded TB. give it a rest.
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You know, I respect this guy for acknowledging the flaws in two of his favorite films, for trying to present a passionate, well-reasoned argument regarding their quality, and for getting something out of the films that I didn't. Frankly, though, if you have to publish an article (Two extremely long parts, no less!) about why a movie didn't suck, despite what everyone thought, then it's probably a bad movie, man. Shiny Happy Rainbow Girl does not a good conclusion make. A film should speak for itself, and that includes acquitting itself from criticism. To Cbabbitt: You're passionate about what you like, and I respect that. Just know that I disagree, for what that's worth.
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That all you needed from the first Reloaded was about 10 minutes, Smith is back and taking over the matrix, and Zion is under attack by the machines. Why? Because nothing else in Reloaded mattered at all in Revolutions. Other then Smith, not one bit of action that happened in Matrix in Reloaded had any effect on anything that happened in Revolutions. The quicker plot would have been, the machines have found Zion, are gonna destroy it, unless Neo turns himself over to them, meahwhile Smith starts taking over the matrix, which causes the two sides to join become allies against a common foe. There we go, I think I just covered the most important story points for the sequels without the needless and overly thought out theological conversations and unneeded characters and events. Be honest here, Reloaded and Revolutions really only contain one movie's worth of story, needlessly filled with overly long and action sequences and some extremely pointless conversations and interactions with other characters. And the one other thing that really killed the movies for me, why in the hell did they decide to start acting like cartoon characters? The major over acting, the almost robotic like movement when they were in the matrix, I felt like I was watching the cast of Scarey Movie pretending to be the cast of the Matrix. There there are the full cgi puppets in Reloaded, god those were awful. Part of being a good director is knowing when something doesnt work, and cutting it. You can pretend that they are deep movies, but they're not. They're attempts at being deep, but fall extremely short. I'll always love the first movie, and the 3rd movie is ok. It's Reloaded that really kills me, What a piece of crap.
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were to be given a choice. much like Neo had in the first movie, either live in the matrix in denial or come out of it and live free. So it would be wrong to say that nothing happened over the course of the three movies. At the end of the first one all humans were enslaved, at the end of the third all humans were given a choice to remain in the matrix
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was when NEO and TRINITY break through the cloud cover and she finally sees the real sun for the first and last time. it was a genuinely felt moment; a moving moment. i really liked that/ the rest of the film, unfortunately, was nonsense; utter filler; little more than a video game cutscene with delusions of granduer.
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Given all that was cool, the fights were not that cool. Harry was right in comparing them to TMNT fights... they got these weapons but use the flat edge or as supplementals. Retarded. The final battle of Kung Fu Hustle is what it should have been like. The superpowerful fighting in normal time while collateral damage happens in slow motion - Giving us the illusions of high-speed combat. It should have been gory as shit too. Those "programs" Neo fights should have been spreading wings and shit, morphing and being all kinds of badass, instead they were just agents with bad style.
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No thanks. I don't wanta get my sex changed. And no it's not all resolved. The humans are still the energy source for the machines and have to live in 'our world' which has war and disease. If it's a different world all together than the first is movie becomes less cool. I think they should have let the Matrix be solo.
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Because I didn't ask a question, dumbass.
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...if you're telling me humans now have a choice whether or not they become batteries, how do the machines guarantee they'll have enough batteries to keep things running? Oh yeah, this truce is gonna last real long....
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Nope The Green River Killer was just a nice guy who had a penchant for killing women. Don't call him evil though that would be judgemental. Hitler and Stalin were just understood. Osama is really an awsome person because people all over the middle east love him.... God I hate liberal ideas like there's no suck thing as bad. How about I shoot you and rape your corpse and then fire bomb your entire family just because I don't agree with you. I bet you'd believe in evil then.
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I haven't seen any suggestions from the aint-sequels crowd on how they would have made it differently. Cbabbitt identified what he thought the failings were, how they could be improved. Anyone else got some alternative themes, plots, storylines they would have liked to see? Me? Don't know really: maybe I would have likes to have seen more focus on the philisophical crap, less of Harold Perrineau's annoying overbite.
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And considering how pissed off I was coming out of the theater, that's a HUGE compliment to your piece, Mr. Babbitt.
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God, I hate trying to be a jackass and then putting in typos that aren't obviuous (hangs head in shame). Damn. Time to get back to Being a Jerk 101 if you'll excuse me (tear falls down face)
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My idea on to make sequels to the MATRIX: Don't. NOTE: This advice also applies to the Star Wars prequels as well as remaking KING KONG. But then, hindsight is 20/20. You don't know how worthless a film is until someone's poured tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars into it. Pity, that.
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...Now that you got me thinking about it, I think I would have quite enjoyed it if REVOLUTIONS ended with all of humanity waking up at once, pushing their way out of those pods and looking at each other with a WTF? look.
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...what is this "matrix" of which you all speak?
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how the fuck is the truce between humans and the machines supposed to work if every human has a 'choice' to leave the matrix? and how does that choice work, since the premise of the original matrix movie is that you can only understand it by seeing it for yourself? so much for informed fucking consent...
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...oh forget it.
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Personally I dont mind the Matrix sequels, but I do find myself skipping to the fights over the meandering crap inbetween nowadays.
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The part where they see the sky for the first time over the machine city. Seeing as how I thought that was one of the only really well done and impacting parts in the film (all 3 seconds of it), I'm kind of surprised at it's omission. Did I miss it?
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Can't wait to see it again this Friday. (By the way, I also agree with the fact that people laughing at Trinity's death took all of the power out of the movie. I'd also like to say that the octupus-machines are machines, and probably very drone-like, so if you think of it like that, it makes sense that they all followed an easily followable pattern. Plus, it would take a lot of computing power to control those things and even more if they were random).
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to three a paragraph, or at least one a sentence...or, better yet, don't use them at all. This is another barely readable WALL OF TEXT. I'm all for posting interpretation on already-released fanboy standards, but, really, this needed some serious editing.
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...I was slightly disappointed at the end of the first movie (before it was annouced that sequels would be made), that the bigger picture hadn't been addressed with a massive wakeup by the pod people). I was quite pleased when it was announced there would be sequels (which I foolishly thought would FINISH THE STORY!) - unfortunately at the end of Revolutions, humanity was in exactly the same position as it was at the end of the first film (i.e. a bunch of duracells) - what a complete waste of time. I really wish that they hadn't bothered & just left it at the far superior first film.
P.S. A bit like the Star Wars prequels really - as a lifelong fan (until 2005, that is) having endured the pain of Eps 1 & 2, only to be seriously let down (or should I say gut-punched?) with the severely lame Ep3. In hindsight I really wish old Georgie hadn't bothered either & just left people to speculate after the originals...... -
i had to comment on this part.
"Trinity unplugs him from the Matrix, which mean Neo absolutely did awaken in the real world and re-plug himself into the system."
You have it all backwards, Neo's mind was seperated from his body and was residing in Mobil-Ave (whilst his body was unconsicous on the sick bay). Once trinity brought him back via the train he was in effect a Rogue program in the matrix, an "exile". Once Link found out that the "something" he was reading was neo, they obviously carted his body to the chair put the needle in his head so that his mind could download back into his body from the matrix.. the first time he has awoken since he passed out in reloaded was that above mentioned part, which was why everyone was staring at him. it wasn't a bad edit, you just misread the situation. -
It would be like the reset button was pressed on the entire human species. Millions wouldn't be able to cope, and go nuts on the spot. Millions more wouldn't survive for a month, lost and starving on the 'Desert Of The Real". And millions would be killed as the leftovers fought for dominance of the world. Would the 'freeing' of the Matrix be worth this cost? Fascinating. More ideas please!
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They're comparable to "Batman and Robin" is completely ridiculous. There are many movies that are far worse than the Matrix sequels. Please, spare us the hyperbole.
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Multiple Matrices. The "real" world is really just another matrix, and so on and so on. It made sense as to why Neo could use some of his powers in the real world. Plus, it makes sense to have a backup, computers would know this. Especially after the failures of the first few matrices. Humans desire to be free, they have this "choice" thing the machines can't understand, so as a safeguard the computers institute many levels of the matrix, or more than one Matrix, so humans awaken from the first matrix and think they're out, completely unaware that they're still very much trapped. It'd also be a bit of a mind fuck to imagine infinite matrices with no hope of ever escaping. I think that's a better way they could have done it. It really just takes the concept of the original, that the "real" world isn't real, and expands it to the point where there may be no such thing as real anymore, at least any attainable real world for these humans.
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That when the 3rd movie ended, I wasn't happy. I didn't want either Neo or Trinity to die. I wanted all the humans unplugged from the Matrix and the machines annihilated. However, after seeing the film a few more times, it really becomes apparent that there was no way that the ultimate destruction of the machines would have been possible. Plus the choice Neo made to save both the machines and humans was a much greater sacrifice than killing one and saving the other. Yes I do think people's failure to realize that we have to obliterate the enemy completely with predjudice says a lot about how under-evolved our "society" is. I think now the Wachowskis actually made a point that went over a lot of people's heads. Truthfully, the average person wouldn't have thought of that, hell, neither did I.
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"The characters are often simply mouth pieces and it gets old REEEAALLL fast." - Too true, it is indeed a drawback, and many of the criticisms can also be levelled at Mamoru Oshii. I guess it comes down to a certain taste in teh genre. Sorta like a medium that simply lets you hear these kinds of ideas in an entertaining way. I'm not arguing to award the Matrix with a little gold statue in this case (Well... maybe for FX and technical achievements). It just isn't that sort of film... I could've been, but unfortunately it isn't, and I don't think they were really trying to make it that sort of film to begin with... So I can't y'know, say they really 'failed' in this aspect... but I do wish things could've been done smoother, for example the complaints about Trinity's death scene, there is no excuse for that, and shit, I was laughing too, but it was more because I couldn't buy Keanu's acting and whimpering... the problem with dealing with plot/philosophy-driven over character driven films comes to when you now have to put in an very emotional scene, something films like Ghost in the Shell avoid with their characters... it wouldn't pan out...
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by condemning most of humanity to serve as their batteries? yeah, the Wachowskis are so much more enlightened than the rest of us. and here i was thinking that they came up with a cop-out bullshit ending because they hadn't thought things through properly.
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"Because I didn't ask a question, dumbass." - You are telling us why the Matrix sucked, when clearly your reasons have been refuted.- "how do the machines guarantee they'll have enough batteries to keep things running?"- As said before, the machines appear to have the ability to survive regardless of humans as batteries. The Matrix is more about a conflict between machines and programs, between those that have a purpoe to serve and those that are simply redundant, outdated, etc. The Matrix has become a refugee area for them... There's a lot more going on in these films than just about the humans. - "Oh yeah, this truce is gonna last real long...." - I'd wonder about that too...
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"how the fuck is the truce between humans and the machines supposed to work if every human has a 'choice' to leave the matrix? and how does that choice work, since the premise of the original matrix movie is that you can only understand it by seeing it for yourself?" - Same way Cypher decided he didn't want to be there anymore. See that this sort of person doesn't want out. Erase memory, check him off a list etc. Even morpheus explains in the first film that after a certain age, people grow too attached. It's not some impossible system to work out. In the comic books, many Zion rebels love revisiting the Matrix and feel better in there than outside, but that's outside the scope of the trilogy if you want to just stick with what's provided in the films... - "by condemning most of humanity to serve as their batteries? yeah, the Wachowskis are so much more enlightened than the rest of us. and here i was thinking that they came up with a cop-out bullshit ending because they hadn't thought things through properly." - IF it was me, I think I'd prefer the comfort of the matrix and simulated reality, so what about being a battery? I help them, they help me... and if all you critics can come up for with an ending is everybody waking up followed by "the End" or a Matrix within a Matrix... well that's just LAME... and you'd still bitch about seeing that last one coming a mile away... I think most of you are bitter because you probably placed bets on it and lost...
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That would sort of take away from the 'reality' of the films topics. For example, not everyone would appreciate being woken up, and once they do, then what? The ending is closure for the characters, the discussion of ideals, and open ended because we human beings in the real world still have not resolved our differences, forget about dealing with sentient things that we created. There are other issues within teh film dealing with the conflict of ideologies, determinism Vs. Free will etc. things that don't have a definite answer in our world today, so how can the Matrix give you that answer? If that sort of thing's not your cup of tea, then you're watching the wrong movie. For you I recommend Return of the King which is quite excellent in it's own handling of things... anyway what I'm tryign to say is, I disagree about ending the film as you'd have wished... the open ended bit allows me to wonder how thigns might turn out with all the various complications... and for all you know you're welcome to think that in teh end one day, everyone would choose to be out of the matrix. WAy I see it, for a timely perspective, it's sort of like, you may think democracy is the best form of governance, but is it really such a good idea to force the decision upon a group of people where many don't want it even if some do? It's the same idea as freeing those in the Matrix... it was not about the Matrix technology and habitation that the rebels were trying to free them from... it was the Machine's domination, (Notice how the rogue programs have a fetish for those outfits in the clubs etc.? Perfectly fitting for a group where many were designed as part of a system to keep the humans in check...) As Morpheus tells Neo in the first film... "What is the Matrix? Control" !
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First, I have to commend cbabbit for his two installments on the merits of the "Matrix" sequels. Very well thought out and an obvious labor of love. I'm an unmitigated fan of the entire trilogy and I have also been perplexed at the cold reception the sequels have received. I'm not exactly sure why "Reloaded" or "Revolutions" have yet to be embraced by the general public, but I'm hoping that those who initially have found the movie less than fulfilling at least give the films another viewing. My appreciation for the trilogy as well as the "Animatrix" shorts grows considerably every time I decide to revisit the saga. I think it's sort of futile to try and second guess or re-write the sequels as the Wachoskis did an admirable job on their own in concluding their epic. I don't have a real point to make, I just wanted to voice how I still find it odd that many of the talkbackers equate the sequels to cinematic excrement.
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newc0253, I think you should at least watch the firt "Matrix" movie again and listen to what Agent Smith has to say to Morpheus. The matrix was originally conceived as a paradise for the "enslaved" human race, but the program was ineffective as something in our nature could not accept a world devoid of suffering and pain. I would also recommend watching the animated "Second Renaissance" from the "Animatrix" to get a better perspective on the human/machine relationship as it pertains to this fictional universe.
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IS that really the reason people hate the end of Revolutions so much? Because they don't understand the difference between letting people willingly choose to live in the Matrix and forcing them to? Come on. If I was forced to live in my apartment and work at my job, it would be slavery. If I choose to do it, it's freedom.
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Regarding your idea of a multi-leveled matrix and a contigency plan for the machines, the whole prophecy of "The One" covers both of those ideas. The "real world" can be read as another construct, or more specifically, Zion, since we are informed, via "Reloaded," that the prophecy was nothing more than another system of control. You know, I was going to go on and on about this point but I've got other things to do. Just watch "Reloaded" again, especially the scenes with the Oracle and the Architect. (See, what I'm trying to get people to do is to go back and watch the movies again.)
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I think this dude is the architects younger dumber brother, he blows
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The Wachowski brothers have said it themselves in interviews that each chapter in the Matrix trilogy is about a phase of existence.
THE MATRIX was about BIRTH, having Neo awaken to the real world and goes to school in a way, learning what he can and cannot do. By the end of the first film he is a matured character and ready to get down to business. In RELOADED which is about LIFE, Neo really gets to do his stuff, which I cannot understand how people found this to be boring or "not what they expected". I am a 23 year student and master instructor of Martial Arts and the movements used in the French Chateau fight alone are some of the best choreagraphy I have ever seen, utilizing almost 16 different types of martial arts styles.
The chase scene was incredible and
the Smith burly brawl was absoultely astounding. All of these aspects of the film including the way it was shot (bright daylight, vivid colors) signify LIFE and LIVING. REVOLUTIONS is of course about DEATH, and nobody really likes death in our society and that is the real reason this movie bombed. The entire storyline of REVOLUTIONS moves towards the integration of body, mind and spirit - and the only way this can happen is for Neo to die. But who wants to see that? Not many. Check out the lighting in this chapter (dark, dim, little daylight) - this is the end. Characters are going to DIE. It's very bleak, but within this is a spiritual, psychological message that many are too insensitive to understand. Sacrifice leads to salvation and peace. I for one think it was a bold step into the historical epic arena where the hero usually dies at the end (BRAVEHEART, GLADIATOR, etc.), but most of the world probably wanted an ending more akin to RETURN OF THE JEDI or RETURN OF THE KING. All in all I would rank the entire trilogy up there with LOTR and STAR WARS classic trilogy. -
so much flaming going on. Why do people feel the need to argue in such a toxic manner? If you don't like the Matrix series, but you have no other arguement than "because it blows" we've already heard quite enough, thank you. If you have a compelling argument, then awesome.
Anyway, I'm confused on why so many people hate the ending of the movie. Does it just not end the way you want it to? I'm not saying I loved it, but it makes sense. If the machines had won, there would be no Zion and no "One" thus ending the cycle. If all of the humans were set free from the Matrix, how would Zion possibly be able to handle the need for food and space? It doesn't seem like they were doing so well in the first place... Do you really think that freeing everyone seems plausible? The ending that we are left with makes the most sense. The machines get what they want and humans get what they want. Just because one is strapped into the new and improved matrix (oooh color in the skies), doesn't mean that they are slaves... -
I always wondered why the machines used humans as batteries in the first place? Wouldn't cows have been more effective? They are large, plentiful, and stupid. It would have been easy to design a matrix for them. Just endless fields of fresh grass and cool ponds. Plus, the resulting "cows fighting their mechanical oppressors" movie would have been much more entertaining than all three Matrix movies (and shorter). Hell...if anything it would have made a great beef commercial.
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Excellent point Splungeman. Machines are dumb. Why didn't people invent smarter machines. Jebus
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i know theres also a lot of hate for crash, but obviously enough people had to like it for it to be voted as oscars best picture, and its tomato rating? 76%. matrix reloadeds rating? 75%. man what a horrible movie. i know different people have different opinions about different things, and im not one who blames peoples hate on the movies because they "dont get it", you just werent entertained, and thats fine. i was in fact very entertained, and i find myself just wanting to revisit the sequels alone without watching the first.. er.. first. besides the many layers you get from the movie, i love how depending on your mood, you can watch them with your brain turned off as mindless action entertainment, or actually pay attention and catch things you might have missed in previous viewings. thats why i love the sequels so much.
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We hate what we don't understand.
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nothing has come close to surpassing their action sequences and nothing probably will for quite some time (maybe Cameron can top it with his new films).
I recognize all the flaws of the sequels like some horrible pacing and stilted dialogue among other things, but it's always been obvious that the nerds who take the time to the hate so much simply didn't understand a lot of what was going on in the films.
Props for another fair article, shows how good these films are for continued discussion which is a RARITY for any genre. Although I think too much credit was given to the W. brothers for what worked in the sequels. -
Some of you guys seem to be confusing 'hate' with 'lack of understanding'. If that makes you feel better about apologising for these films then fair enough. It's possible to hate something we understand. You also seem to be confusing 'trying to tell you they are cack' with 'discussion'. Much confusion all round. That's not a 'rarity' either - there are plenty of shit films. These are simly two of many.
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giving everyone a choice like cypher would mean releasing everyone from the matrix, dumbass. so much for the truce.
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was in the first movie. I distinctly remember rolling my eyes through the part about the body's btu's and how combined with fusion, the machines would have all the energy they needed. First time I heard that, i laughed uncontrollably in the theater. Why not just use the fusion? Its sorta like the machines invented nuclear power just so they can turn on a lightbulb and absorb its indirect energy. I still laugh when I think about the premise.
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Mar 14, 2006 6:46:04 AM CST
I wasn't interested in Matrix Revolution after Reloaded
by bendersshinyass
I loved Reloaded until the car chase. after that I just DID NOT get it. And that climax was so beyond me that i seriously felt like I'd missed a couple scenes. And the closing credits music was nails down a chalk board. And that Trailer for Matrix revolutions at the end.... I just felt so 'Matrixed out' that i had no interest. And so it goes it was bagged and I didn't care. But alas, I caught it recently on TV and it really wasn't too bad. What pissed me off though, was the shitty editing during the Zion attack sequence and the whole concept of the train station. It was like, beyond the matrix, in neo's mind or something. It was fucking bizzare. so all up, all three films as 1 big story, the first half is great! the second half is a bad come down off the drugs that inspired the first. see ya
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Yes, pinky--I have utilized the power from a nuclear reactor to build indutries and other giant machines so that they may build solar cells. Now, I can only pray for there to be enough sunlight to make it work...
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But judging by this talkback, a lot of people really don't get it. In the original Matrix, and a couple of the cartoons in the Animatrix, it's obvious that the machines can tell when someone begins to question the reality of the Matrix, because they get Agents sent after them. The truce just means that people will be allowed to wake up, if they choose to. And if they don't like what they see when they wake up, they can go back to being slaves. So yeah, in a way, nothing's changed at the end of Revolutions, but the idea is that people have finally been given choice. Doesn't make the films any better, but that's what happened.
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Now there's no doubt that it was all a dream. However, with the matrix, there is absolutely way of knowing. There is BOTH the seperation of the Matrix and the real world, plus there is also NO seperation of the matrix and the real world. It's ALL in the matrix. When you do that to an audiance you fuck them up and as a result, fuck up the success of your film. however, had they of kept it nice and simple - 1 sequel where we learn that there is no real world, it's all a computer programe, even when they think they've been woken up. thats when Neo comes to terms with the new way of thinking and the film closes with a third to come in a few years time. They didn't do that. these films failed. And this site has some splaining to do over this bizzare attempt to convince us that WE'RE ALL WRONG and these films are somehow something they just simply aint.
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Is that because you didn't really believe she was baking cookies, or that she was really smoking while spouting nonsense? Yes that Gloria woman was quite the thespian.
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I think the second oracle was generally viewed as less talented because she sounded like Elmer Fudd with dentures.
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Real interesting reads, thank you. Relevant, insightful, and straight forward. As opposed to cbabbit's well-meaning ramble, which substitutes content for absurdly over-flowery language and enthusiasm.
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The first movie was the bomb. 2nd - 3rd fights in recap:
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batteries spiel to Neo, then Neo asking if using cows would have been smarter. "Uhhh, let's learn some more kung fu!"
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1) I don't hate the movies... in fact, I own all of them... just for a little background here. 2) What I'm talking about is some sort of reveal where they realize the real world is still in the computer, and that there's no promises that even if they can wake up from it, that they'll be out of the matrix. I wanted an ending that was a sort of a downer, facing them with obscene odds of possibly infinite matrices. I think that would make them reevaluate the whole idea of reality and being free, which is really what the sequels were trying to do, anyway. You could of course have them resolve themselves to keep fighting until they are free, whatever the cost, though that might make things feel like nothing was accomplished because they're right back where they started. Either way, I would have liked a more "oh shit" ending than the somewhat predictable one we got. The first matrix was all about mindbending shit, and the architect's conversation in 2 hinted at big things that revolutions simply never delivered on.
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The level of "hate" that everyone is talking about has to be derived from the fact that most of the so-called "haters" DO understand the movie. If you don't understand something, your initial reaction may be to hate something but to still hate it years later means you actually have reasons to hate it. Trust me, no-one on this board is actually so important to the other posters that they will go out of their way to hate something just to piss you off!! Really, the Matrix sequels weren't that hard to understand.
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"With careful thought, this resolution is the only plausible and realistic conclusion for a story this complex and detailed."
Wrong. Neo should have put Man back in the driver's seat of our home planet. He had the power to kick ass in both the virtual and real world and yet, in the end, he cut a deal that was sooooo in favor of the machines, it's almost ridiculous ("Cool, no more rebellious batteries!"). How could he possibly give a damn about what happens to the programs in the Matrix? They were all merely written to do certain jobs in the Matrix, which, just in case I have to remind you, is an instrument to ensure the peaceful slavery of the human race. A.I. is A.I., and that's that.
BUT if Neo really is what the Architect says he is (simply a piece of code with a function and a human host body) then this makes sense. The One as the ultimate control instrument that keeps the machines in power while letting the humans think they won. The last 6 Ones were imperfect because they weren't "in love" and chose to reset the cycle of Zion (16 hand-picked babes with which to repopulate the underworld? Count me in!) and now, the machines rule without the "civilian unrest".
I think Reloaded and (especially) Revolutions garnered so much hate because the first movie presented Neo as THE ass-kicking savior who would free the enslaved population, and in the end, he wasn't and still got the Braveheart treatment, which just wasn't fitting for the ignorant turncoat he was.
Am I so wrong with this point of view?
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I think what bothers me about the "haters" is that they seem to think they're in the majority. If you look at the IMDB votes, most of them are positive on both sequels. The fact is, they were *disapointing* movies, and the fact that people had such strong feelings for the first movie undoubtedly lead some people to really despise the sequels... but most people view them as flawed, not awful. And no, you and your friends don't count as "most people". The people you talk to at the video store, either. That's anecdotal evidence; 'cause I can just as easily say everyone *I* know was disappointed in the sequels, but still liked them enough to buy them. Obviously opinion is heavily mixed, and neither side should get all haughty-bitchy, as if the other side is denying the obvious. There are plenty of reasons to like them and plenty of reasons not to.
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...if I had a thesaurus, I'd tell you that in 7000 words.
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sorry folks, i've seen all the animatrix films, etc, and i still say this is very far from being as 'obvious' as you seem to think it is. why should freedom from the the matrix depend on being smart enough to figure out that reality is actually a computer construct? a prison is no less of a prison simply due to the fact that sometimes people manage to escape. it's like saying that the communist dictatorship in cuba is okay, simply because you can always swim for florida if you don't like it. as another talkbacker remarked, the conclusion of Revolutions makes Neo look like Neville Chamberlain. and, if you're smart enough to understand that historical reference, you should be smart enough to understand why Revolutions was a shitty movie.
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Why wouldn't everyone be given a conscious option of whether to come out or not? It seems pretty clear that most people would choose to stay, the machines don't need to fear losing thier full power supply. If they can choose to stay it's not a prison, it's a resort.
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uh, maybe because "no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself"? i seem to remember someone saying that in one of the movies... in other words, the only way to give people a genuine choice would be to remove them from the matrix. and, given the emphasis which the original movie places on the importance of people seeking what is real, it seems doubtful that most wouldn't choose to stay, nor would the machines voluntarily allow a mass exodus from the matrix, jeopardizing their survival. then again, it's pretty obvious that defenders of revolutions aren't the masters of thinking-things-through...
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you could say the same thing about cuba. by your logic, anyone who doesn't start swimming for miami automatically consents to the communist dictatorship. and if you told everyone in the matrix that they were really living in a computer simulation, why wouldn't everyone demand to be rich and famous?? after all, why would you consent to going back into the matrix if you were a peasant in india or a prisoner in china? or why would you even choose to do a boring middle class job in some office when you could be fighting the machines??
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"giving everyone a choice like cypher would mean releasing everyone from the matrix, dumbass. so much for the truce." - No, not necessary... How did Neo learn about the Matrix? Morpheus and co. plugged him into some kind of program simulator thing. Unplugging the person is not necessary to tell them about it, show them visuals and watch their reaction. "uh, maybe because "no one can be told what The Matrix is. You have to see it for yourself"? i seem to remember someone saying that in one of the movies..." - Which is exactly what Morpheus did aboard the Nebuchadnezzar. Visually show Neo. Do you think Neo stepped outside the ship? No, they appear to have brought him from the operating and recuperation table to the chair. Though that initial shock of it all that Neo went through prior to it could supposedly help. Then again that shock could also kill some. One thing to note from the films and even comics is that the rebels only bother to go after those who already feel something is wrong with the world despite how comfortable or uncomfortable their lives are... "given the emphasis which the original movie places on the importance of people seeking what is real" - Well it is only Morpheus, Trinity and the rebels who are placing that emphasis on it. They are believers in that sense, you're not hearing any opposing points of view from them other than from Cypher who also made some excellent points in the very same movie. See? Morpheus and co. believe Neo is the One and are convincing him to stay. "nor would the machines voluntarily allow a mass exodus from the matrix, jeopardizing their survival." - As said before, the machines don't appear that concerned about the Matrix, and it seems suggested that they no longer need to utilize humans as energy. As well the machine philosophy is none too concerned about their numbers than they are about survival as a whole, which is why many are none too concerned about getting rid of outdated/useless programs, who are taking exile in the Matrix and fighting for it so they have a place to stay. "why wouldn't everyone demand to be rich and famous??" - The first Matrix was designed to be a paradise, it didn't work out... erasure of memory and returning them to their daily pattern is therefore a good option, as they would like it that much... However it is an interesting point... would you suppose that those who haven't got it so good? For example that bum in the station in film 1, might probably be more keen to get out of there? Many of course will debate what to do... even Neo who asks about the possibility, "I can't go back... can I?"
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Johnno already argued this, but to summarize: 1: They could easily show them what the Matrix was in the same way Morpheus showed Neo in the Construct in the first film. 2: Even if the protagonists feel searching for truth is important, they freely state most people just aren't ready to be woken up. I doubt more than 1 or 2 in a hundred would want to leave the Matrix. 3: You don't need to swim miles and miles to get out of the Matrix, you just need to be woken up. Also note that humans still seem to make the rules, for the most part, in the Matrix. The rules of the universe are set by the machines, but politics, government, life, etc. are still seemingly human-run. Not much of a dictatorship.
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"a sufficient explanation for the situation at hand".......except it isn't - its just more laughable philosophical double speak that provides no explanation to anything, other than the Wachowskis being woefully unable to provide answers to the questions they raise themselves. Sums up the Matrix sequals really.
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Humans will all be given a choice as to whether or not they stay in the matrix. How this is implemented is never explained, yet another thing that the film didn't see through. Any thoughts on the subject are purely speculation. No one but the W. Bros really know for sure.
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Ya know the old question, "how do you really know you're not just a brain in a jar"? Well, the Matrix was the first dedicated film adaptation of that old philosophical whipping horse. Wasn't it? It's very original in that sense, whatever else it might have (judiciously!) borrowed from GitS and Neuromancer and etc.
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True, as far as I know. People accuse it of ripping off Dark City (another phenomenal film), but A: while some of the themes are the same, the nature of reality in each film is different. The ideas in DC are in some ways more similar to the ideas in Memento. B: The Matrix was in production long before DC came out, anyway, so similarities are largely coincidental.
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if at the end of revolutions the machines give humans a choice and everything is great after that then why, in the almost infinite intelligence of the machines, did they not think of this earlier?
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any movie that requires a video game, comic book, and cartoons to be understood better is no good because it fails to explain things in a coherent and intelligent manner on its own. Look at Revenge of the Sith... there was a movie that had a cartoon that helped explain more about minor details of the movie, whereas if you are interested in knowing more about the fundamentals of the Matrix movies you would have to see the animatrix and/or read play the videogame. And for everyone who said that the peace solution was the only way to end the trilogy, i don't agree. first of all are all the questions regarding what exactly would happen if everyone was unplugged from the matrix. and you do have to be unplugged (i.e., the red or blue pill deal). For the peace solution to be fair and carried to a logical conclusion EVERYONE would have to be given a choice between one of the two pills as was the case with Neo. Am I missing something? A better ending: the machines are overthrown, humans take over and are left contemplating the irony of needing machines while at the same time wanting to be free from them (as was mentioned in Reloaded).
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He was the only character in the entire trilogy who was enjoying himself.
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Considering these movies like to explore the concept of what is real and what isn't...what does exist and what doesn't, the movie could very well have existed if the machines had used cows. There is no spoon remember? Understand I wasn't posting that last post because I needed verification of my dumbassness (believe me...I know). I just find the machines in these movies to be extremely stupid. They must be running on the Windows OS.
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These movies fall into that type of sci-fi that uses baffling paradoxes and mind tricks to convince people they are experienceing something "smart". Throw a lot of metaphysics, philosophy and computer jargon in there and most people will walk out thinking, "Well shit, that must have been good sci-fi because I don't think I could explain that to anyone if I tried." Keep in mind this is the average movie-goer I'm referring to. The plot of these movies are really deceptively simple to anyone who can separate the meat from the fluff. I enjoyed them for what they were. Cool looking martial arts, SFX extravaganzas. But good sci-fi they are not.
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The machines had no incentive to make everything all shiny-happy for the humans until Neo essentially blackmailed them with the threat of Smith.
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For those wanting a far more enjoyable movie experience (than reloaded and revolutions) should try locating either of these two fan-edit constructs. One is called THE MATRIX DEZIONIZED and the other is THE MATRIX REGENERATED. Both of these FAN-Edition movies combine / edit Matrix Reloaded and Matrix Revolutions into one pleasing movie by removing all ZION parts(from reloaded / revolutions). Look for both of these FAN-EDITS and see what a little cutting here and there can do to restore your faith in this franchise...
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She had just been impaled, mortally wounded, yet she was able to talk like nothing happened, like she was tired. Then she went on for what seemed like forever. If they had cut it down to a minute or thirty seconds, or had her die like someone getting impaled actually dies, it would have hit a lot closer to home.
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"..Clearly, as you watch the film, you suspect the Wachowskis never had two viable sequels to "The Matrix." They had one, and then decided for whatever reasons -- an inability to trim their own verbose dialogue, a desire to squeeze the last penny out of an idea -- to stretch it into two.
It's all a little maddening, because there's one good movie here, scattered between the two halves. Trim 45 minutes out of 'The Matrix Reloaded'... Lop the first hour from 'The Matrix Revolutions.' Now splice them together, and you'd have a single compelling, sci-fi classic."
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Ok, you get a bunch of fucking animals, plug them into the matrix and let them live in a big ass jungle matrix while the machines feed on their energy. Something the machines should have done in the first place because large animals give off probably twice the energy a human would, but we're talking engaging movie action here.
And fuck you, I like that there's an anime, a comic series and a video game to explore the Matrix with. Odds are if you're marketing a movie to "le geek" then you want to use all their outlets to make money off of. Oh wow, capitalism! Yes, I'd like to use the world's largest comic publishing house, the best animation houses and the best gaming developers to tie into my movie. Good deal. You don't NEED any of those to understand the movies (unless you're an idiot. Hello 3/4 of America) but they only make a richer background. The sequences of the Animatrix that told the story of the machine's rise? Brilliant. They expanded on Morpheus' breakdown of the history of the machine takeover and gave us better story. Good deal. I have no problem with tie-ins that are WORTH MY FUCKING TIME, but would honestly slow down the main event.
Why didn't the machines give humans a choice earlier? EGO. If YOU had your oppressors under your thumb would you give them any choices? Yeah thought not.
I enjoyed the hell out of all these movies and tie ins and I'm not afraid to say it. I guess that's just because I don't expect the best fucking thing ever then get quickly jaded by everything I see because my hopes and standards have gotten higher than both Cheech and Chong.
Talkback's name should be changed to Hateback cause that's all y'all ever do.
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Here it is, the only one you'll ever need. I'd offer the above analysis as further proof. Enjoy.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0242653/usercomments-1293 -
Living in a world where Keanu Reeves is Christ/God would be impossibly inescapably depressing. Maybe that is why the Zionists never had any joy or hope in the film. Also, I've always wondered if the Wachowski brothers didn't spread themselves too thin trying to do two films, the Animatrix, the video game, the comic books, etc. etc. etc. simultaneously. I know they had their hearts set on making 2003, "The Year of the Matrix", as they put it; but, they should have aimed for quality instead of sheer quantity.
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They didn't answer any questions!!! At least that's what pissed me off. On top of that they just went in a totally different direction and we never got to see a croud of people reacting after seeing the things that Neo can do. And we didn't get to see anyone actually "get free". All we got was a bunch of cryptic double talk and eye winking. Not very tasty precious. Nope, not tasty at all.
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They didn't answer any questions!!! At least that's what pissed me off. On top of that they just went in a totally different direction and we never got to see a croud of people reacting after seeing the things that Neo can do. And we didn't get to see anyone actually "get free". All we got was a bunch of cryptic double talk and eye winking. Not very tasty precious. Nope, not tasty at all.
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The matrix was an awe inspiring, visually fantastic and smart movie. Given that it was released at the same time as the "SUPPOSEDLY" brilliant and unstoppable phantom menace, the first matrix set the standard in new age "SCI FI". So what happened? The first sequel was tolerable but alas the flaws were already in place. In my eyes the biggest of said flaws was simply the over the top theology. The whole morpheus as moses at the gathering was just to much for an audience who thought that the first one simply made sci fi look cool again. As for the third installment....... where to begin. Hardly any of the questions raised in the first two were addressed let alone answered, then theirs the whole neo/smith one on one. Two characters who cant feel pain, bleed or seemingly be destroyed just makes for boring viewing. The fact that this was done in the first movie doesn't seem to impress the film makers. So in this one they add the fact that they can fly............ not very inventive is it. At least revenge of the sith put the two main principles of good and evil on a volcanic planet. A pretty convincing one too. The fact remains that the Matrix, could've been this generations star wars, Hell it even started out promising. Alas, it wasn't meant to be. Simply because like George lucas on his "ahem" prequels the pretty colors and cheap yet effective computer FX, take center stage over what was once a great story. In essence. Money fucked it for all of us.
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It was, like, 10 times better than Revolutions. Reloaded was wretched excess, but at least there were some good parts. Revolutions was just wretched. No good parts, just lots of joke-fodder. I'd say Revolutions deserves a spot on the "Worst Sequels" list, and a much higher spot than "Reloaded."
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Reloaded and Revolutions blew big juicy chunks of vomit. This guy just making excuses for a horribly conceived sequels. I mean you can get all metaphysical on us, and say some highfalutin things about the matrix sequels, but the things is, they may have wanted that message to be delivered, but somehow both these films fail to do that...as in delivery. it wasn't that we didn't understand the convoluted plot and storyline, we just didn't get why it had to be so effing boring. It seems like another case of relying way to heavily on CGI than really good storytelling. Refarted and Revoltings doesn't meet that mark...heck Joss Whedon's Serenity flick was far superior to the POS known as the matrix sequels, and that was purely a by the numbers scifi flick. However unlike the Matrix sequels, it was actually enjoyable.
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The comments prove how stupid most of the movie public is. These movies have flaws, but if you take the time to actually watch and THINK about them it makes sense. They collectively are great movies that can really challenge you.
However most of the movie public like stuff in cookie cutter fashion. Give me the end with full explanations and the hero wins. Bunch of morons, keep watching your crap movies, and when something stimulating comes around go hide your heads between your legs.
Matrix = Must be able to think
Majority of talkback comments = stupid dumb idiots -
Apr 29, 2008 12:21:43 AM CDT
If a TBer writes a post in a dead TB, does it ever get read?
by thebearovingian
It very well could.
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