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Ahoy, squirts! Quint here with my brief thoughts on the upcoming flick DAVE CHAPPELLE'S BLOCK PARTY, a concert film along the lines of WATTSTAX but substitute hip hop for funk.

I'd say the film, directed by ETERNAL SUNSHINE's Michel Gondry, is about 65% music and 35% Chappelle organizing, rehearsing and recruiting an audience for his Block Party, a free music event on the streets of Brooklyn.

I was eager to see the film because of Gondry's direction and Chappelle's involvement. I don't have anything against rap or hip hop... I'm actually a fan of the earliest incarnations of the form like Run DMC, The Fatboys, Sir Mix-A-Lot, etc. I'm not predisposed to dislike the music, but it's not something I keep up with, really. That's actually true with most modern music... I guess you could say I'm kinda stuck in hey days of oldies rock, classic rock, disco, funk, 80s pop cheese, etc. The only currently active band I make sure to see whenever in town is Tenacious D.

So, as a music fan that is pretty much only one that likes the music he likes (ie someone who doesn't "like everything"), I went into this more as a Dave Chappelle fan.

I followed Chappelle back around his HALF BAKED time. I actually saw him perform at Cap City Comedy Club here in Austin a good 6 or so years ago. He came out after the set, which was fuckin' hilarious, and chatted up the 4 or 5 people who had remained, including this fat white geek. He was really cool to me and even sketched me a stick figure smoking a joint in this sketch-book I carried around in those days.

When Chappelle's Show premiered on Comedy Central I was so happy to see that he was finally getting the exposure he deserved and even happier still that his show was great. Season 2 was heads and tails better than the first season and was well on its way to becoming a centerpiece original show for Comedy Central. Then all that seemed to go away overnight and Chappelle's future was a question mark.

For those Chappelle fans out there, he's in top form in the doc. His humor is as natural as always, as effortlessly funny as he's ever been. Even more you can see the passion in his eyes for this music. It's fun to see him geek out for something, even if it's a geek out I don't personally share.

Of the musicians, the only two I knew of past just simple name recognition was Kanye West and Erykah Badu. West does a pretty electric live version of JESUS WALKS, supported by live horns and back-up singers. Earlier we see a college marching band that Chappelle bussed out to the event work their horns to the same song in front of Kanye who seemed to get a big kick out of it.

Gondry's camerawork is fantastic, especially during the most energetic of performances. He easily slips from one musician to another without losing focus... it's almost as if the whole thing was choreographed, but you can feel the spontaneous energy. It's an electric feeling you don't really find anywhere besides a great concert film.

I really enjoyed the film and I think most of you will, too. Even my fellow crackers out there, although watch out for the son of a murdered Black Panther taking the stage and getting everybody onstage and in the crowd to raise their fists high in the air. That scene is sure to make some white butt-holes clench up in the theater. Not all, surely, but there will be some creeped out white dudes, I guarantee you that.

Good music, good filmmaking and Chappelle being Chappelle. It's what you'd want from this thing.


Readers Talkback
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  • Feb. 28, 2006, 5:02 a.m. CST

    Ron white's block party!

    by ALUCINOR11

    The son of a murdered kkk comes out on stage and gets everyone to zeig heil! Not saying Ron white is involved with the kkk but then again I wouldn't say Dave Chappelle was involved with the Black Panthers.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 5:03 a.m. CST

    im rick james, bitch!

    by flamingrunt

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 5:04 a.m. CST

    ive seen some previews for this..

    by movieman742

    and it looks like a pretty good movie. i might go see it this weekend. i really like Chappelle and im glad he is back and doing some things he enjoys.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 5:39 a.m. CST


    by raknade

    I have to go

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 5:40 a.m. CST

    or, not

    by raknade

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 5:53 a.m. CST

    I see it coming already....

    by oh_riginal

    I'm going to be stuck in the 90's, musicwise. Give me Geto Boys, Dr. Dre, Eazy-E, Ice Cube, Spice 1, MC Eiht, Nas, 2Pac, Jay-Z (older stuff), Bloods & Crips, DJ Quik, Brotha Lynch Hung, and a million other rappers from every coast during the 90's over the 95% crap/10% decent rap on the radio these days.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:07 a.m. CST

    Overrated, but still damn funny

    by Mr. Shhhh

    His show was funnier than what SNL has been throwing out there. That's not saying much, but still funny.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:24 a.m. CST

    Then it's 35% of a movie

    by zekmoe

    since the music is plain awful. Terrible, trendy crapola. The anti-music. Soulless soul pretenders and talkers. Yawn. No wait. Yawn and puke.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:37 a.m. CST


    by Cameron1

    Mos Def, Talib Kweli, Common and The Roots are not terrible trendy crapola.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:49 a.m. CST

    fatboys? sir mix a lot? run dmc?

    by tripp5

    anyone else notice quint only lists fat rappers? shit, at least mix-a-lot rapped about bitches, the fatboys' lyrics were all about food! and isnt one of em dead? u like Heavy D, too? how about Fat Joe? as a side note, this movie will own all your fat white asses.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 8:16 a.m. CST

    here is the big question...

    by Drworm2002

    Will it make him $30 Million?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 8:47 a.m. CST

    The music was the one thing I hated about the show...

    by ComputerGuy68

    a 1/2 hr show does not need a musical guest.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 9:24 a.m. CST


    by monkeymafia

    I'm sure lots of us will see this to get our Chapelle fix, but I'm bummed this didn't come out earlirer. Kanye's annoying as hell now, and the re-birth of the Fugees isn't much now that they are playing on a Verizon Wireless commercial. A concert doc doesn't need two years to come out...

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 9:34 a.m. CST

    DJ CheezWhiz & Funk Master Scrotorium

    by Mike Nesmith

    Debut CD, "The Nine Inches of Larry", on Fuzzball Records. Check it out, yo!

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 9:46 a.m. CST

    In the tradition of WALK THE LINE and RAY...

    by Mike Nesmith

    Dave Chapelle IS Little Richard! Directed by Chris Columbus...

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:05 a.m. CST

    amen, Teh Suk

    by ILK

    amen. Rap, hip-hop and it's related incarnations are a legitimate art form that will be recognized by history as such. What a few jerk-offs say will not matter. They were saying it was a fad in the 80s. Now I find it surprising when I discover new rock-related music I like, but never seem to run out of refreshing and challenging rap. All things come and go in cycles, but rap's 15 minutes just turned into a full day and that day aint over. Not by a long shot.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:08 a.m. CST


    by grendelson138

    I hate white people.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:09 a.m. CST

    not half as much

    by ILK

    as we hate ourselves

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:11 a.m. CST

    rap--gutter art

    by moondoggy2u

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:13 a.m. CST

    Any instruments? Any singing? Hmm.

    by moondoggy2u

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:28 a.m. CST

    I wouldn't say they're racists...

    by John Maddening

    ...if they don't like rap/r&b. They might not like Eminem or the Beastie Boys, either. Am I only half a racist because I like rap but not r&b?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:31 a.m. CST

    who said

    by ILK

    rap was music? Why does it have to be? Poetry isn't music. Beat poetry wasn't music. There are millions of things in the world that are not music. The "rap isn't music" thing is so tired and old, my grandma doesn't even fart it anymore. It doesn't want to be what you want it to be, and never will.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:35 a.m. CST

    I don't agree..

    by ILK

    That everyone that doesn't LIKE rap is a racist. Or even that everyone here IS a racist. Impossible. But people who say it isn't a legitimate form are probably more than likely at least somewhat down that road. Or they're not paying attention. Take your pick. Call yourself whatever you want, but you're still wrong.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:45 a.m. CST

    If you missed the beauty and talent..

    by ILK

    .. you're just not paying close enough attention. And if you are not interested in paying close enough attention, that's fine. Just don't act like you know enough about it to form an educated opinion. Or act as though your opinion is informed.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:51 a.m. CST

    What it wants to be??

    by moondoggy2u

    Rap, not any other form of creativity, is not a conscious entity. A creation is what the creator chooses it to be. And I'd hate to tell you this, but the creators of rap market it as MUSIC, teh suk. You may not like that. You may disagree with it as I do. But that doesnt negate what the creators attempt to pass off as music. Personally, I do believe it to be an art form--you are, after all, creating written/spoken statements. Rap may generally be misogynistic, racist, hateful, primitive, and crass, but it is still an act of creativity (ie art).

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:54 a.m. CST

    yeah, ILK,

    by moondoggy2u

    I can't tell you how much beauty I find in murder, rape, drugs, crime, ludity, and vulgarity. Every time I hear rap, I get a tear in my eye. Believe it or not, my soul even soars a bit, too. In fact, when I hear 50 cent, I feel that much closer to G-d Himself.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:55 a.m. CST

    65% MUSIC 35% CHAPELLE?.........


    Consider me about 75% not interested. I think Dave is Hilarious, but I think if he'd quit playing the race card he'd be brilliant. Honestly Dave I know it's the thing to do right now but why do you think there is so much tension between races? Could it be because both white and black people keep making fun of each others differences and doing so in a negative light? (the answer is yes). Y'know, getting paid because your relatives were slaves isn't the answer to racism. Learning how to respect each other and moving on is.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:07 a.m. CST


    by ILK

    I rest my case. You're listening to the wrong stuff, and probably not even really listening to it well. Shakespeare didn't fuck his mom or end the day with all his friends dead, wollowing in deep regret. Many of these people are just telling it like it is. And some are posers, relaying the same old tired messages. You know, like pop music does, but with more family-friendly messages of love. Face it, all you guys are really afraid of is that one of these guys talking about their gigantic penises is gonna gorilla-fuck your girl. At the end of the day, "wait till you see my......" ending in wallet isn't half as interesting to most women as the word it REALLY implies. And that must hurt.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:08 a.m. CST

    Quint, don't throw "cracker" around lightly...

    by Lance Rock

    An African-American friend of mine told me, after I used the term, that it refers to whip-cracker, as in slave owner. Not the harmless saltine you may have thought it was. It's intention is to be just as offensive as the N word...

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:14 a.m. CST


    by moondoggy2u

    That's all we're afraid of? My friend, I am hardly afraid of rap. In much the same sense i am not afraid of the hate that so many rappers spew. Its very simple--I dont condone, and stand oppose, to such evils. Sounds a bit melodramatic, but nonetheless true. As far as equating my reasoning to some sort of freudian fear, well, I think we can just let your "defense" speak for itself.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:17 a.m. CST


    by ILK

    riiiiight. But "you guys" wasn't really directed at you personally. I mean, the shoe fits, but where is your foot?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:23 a.m. CST

    That's just it.

    by ILK

    MY ears do NOT hear better than anyone else's. I'm just defending the form. Yes, like what you like. Who said you shouldn't? Try to keep up. If you don't like rap, fine. Just don't imply that it isn't legitimate. The way it's sold is about the distribution channels, not about what it wants to BE. It never wanted to BE music. And yes, in response to an earlier comment, it IS an IT, therefore can be referred to as such. And IT can have symbolic wants, needs and goals as a movement or scene. Symbolic. Why did anyone think I mean it literally, like rap is a living thing?? Do the lot of you suffer from aspergers?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Kinda want to see it...

    by Johnno

    But I'll wait for video...

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:44 a.m. CST

    best documentary film 2006

    by emu47

    My prediction. It'll take home the little gold man next year.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:46 a.m. CST

    But thats just the problem, ilk.

    by moondoggy2u

    you are SYMBOLICALLY saying that as an act of creation is the intent of the creator(s). I'm simply removing the middle man and saying the same thing you are (in that reguard only). Now, logically, if a creation is a result of a creator's itent. If rap is being marketed as a music, than that is the intent of the creators. And, like it or not, the moguls are people who contribute to rap as it is today. In fact, as you well know, most of your moguls are former rappers themselves. Why is this such a big deal? When we "racists" point out mainstream rap's violent and hateful aspects we have with rap, you dodge the issue by saying the aspects are a result of fake rappers and not the responsibility of THOSE WHO PRODUCE IT!! So how can we have, fake art, ILK? Hmmm?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:51 a.m. CST

    damn enter button.

    by moondoggy2u

    See, ILK, what we are trying to say is that, while we find rap to sound horrible, we do recognize it as art. What we also do, is hold those artists who wish to spread hate (whether through rock, rap, or a country sound) responsible for their actions. So which is it, ILK? Is the art responsible, or the artist?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 12:02 p.m. CST

    You can't really debate rap or hip hop music with ...

    by Lost Skeleton

    people who are not fans of hip hop because people who are not fans will of course judge the music based on what they hear...and the hip hop on the radio (Commerical hip hop) with the exception of Kanye West sucks. Even the Kanye West songs that they do play on the radio are not his best. Common, Mos Def, The Roots and Talib are underground, less well know artist to people who are not hip hop fans. In the Hip hop community, these artist get mad respect. Hell, the Roots ARE A LIVE FUCKING BAND! The musical arrangements and beat production take time to produce. Hip hop is more than just a turntable and some samples. To say that Hip hop is not music is to say that modern pop, R&B and even some punk is not music. I agree that 90% of the rap you hear on the radio sucks (i.e. 50 cent) and if I was judging a form of music strictly based on what I hear on the radio or around town...I would think it sucks too. Just like I can't get into a real debate over rock or punk ( I love U2 and Green Day but I am sure there are punk and rock fans rolling their eyes right now) For hip hop lovers...Dave choose the most uncommerical, best representers of the art form around. These guys and girls have a lot to say as compared to their more commerical counterparts and I think that is why Dave loves them so. I don't think white people who do not like rap are racists although I am thrown aback to the lack of respect of anything entertaining to Black people (See Madea grossing $30 million) I think white people feel that if I don't like it, than it is not wroth a damn. But to question that these guys and girls are artist is just shortsighted...they did the same thing to jazz and to rock before it got popular.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 12:05 p.m. CST


    by chimcham3000

    well if you werent a complete ass monkey youd realize that racism still exists in most parts of the country. im not sure how chappelle plays a race card other than being funny as shit and black. im not sure if ive heard of the funny as shit and black card. if you arent intuitive or investigative enough to search out hip hop that has nothing to do with violence or slappin ho's than maybe you really arent interested in the world around you. your interest would sit in placing things in tiny boxes to make it all just a little easier for you to understand. demonization is easy, understanding a mindset or walking a mile in a man's shoes isnt always so much. mainstream music in general is insulting to my intelligence, so i dont get all the furor over hip hop. and its hip hop not rap by the way.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 12:08 p.m. CST

    Y'all Sure Do Know Your Hip-Hop Music

    by utz_world

    A little research will tell you that the hip-hop displayed in this film IS NOT the Lil Jon, Fiddy or Young Geezy kind. Instead we have The Roots (the ONLY hip-hop group who play with live instruments), Mos Def & Talib Kweli (the antithesis of thug/gangsta), The Fugees (Erykah Badu & Jill Scott (who aren't even friggin hip-hop artists - but R&B singers!), Common, Kanye (performing with a high school band), and Dead Prez (the closest thing to "gangsta" in the whole damn lineup!). So, yes, moondoggy2u, there will be PLENTY of MUSIC, SINGING and INSTRUMENTALS! Trolls!

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 12:10 p.m. CST

    And another thing...

    by Lost Skeleton

    To say that all rap is violent is a overstatment. The artist that Dave choose to be on stage with are not violent at all. Also, they stand against some of the same bullshit violent rap that ILK is concerned about. But to lump all rap music into a box is very shortsighted...And I am tired of white men being tired of me as a Black man being pissed. I am angry and pissed off about the state of Black America and, really, we all should since we are sharing this land. To just dismiss the racial undercurrent that Black folks have to deal with everyday is just insensitive. Listening to people's anger instead of dismissing it may be the better thing to do. You can't tell me after Katrina that everything is okay in America, whether you are poor, brown, a woman, undereducated, etc.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 12:52 p.m. CST

    other hip hop groups who use instruments...

    by tripp5

    other than The Roots includes: The Beastie Boys, C-Lo Green and his Perfect Imperfections, the Fugees, and Snoop's touring band, the Snoopadelics, is not only a fucking huge band, but they also play METAL during their hip-hop/funk extravaganzas

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 1:24 p.m. CST

    I'm afraid I'm going to go down the low road and say...

    by FilmZ0mbie


  • Feb. 28, 2006, 1:31 p.m. CST

    I'm curious about the sonof the slain Black Panther

    by IAmJack'sUserID

    If it sounds like what I think it does, that's when I hit the skip button on my remote. Don't know if I want to see this since I'm racist since I hate R&B and rap, but then I like Dave Chappelle so does that cancel out my previous racism?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 1:34 p.m. CST

    Rap is to music like horror films are to movies...

    by Batutta

    There's some great nuggets out there, but there's so much AWFUL shit it's almost not worth sifting through to get to the good stuff.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 1:36 p.m. CST

    The music will be the best part of this.....

    by xXRedflyXx

    I used to hate on hip-hop....but I have realized that a lot of new hip-hop is retaining an edge and sophistication that is really missing from a lot of other genres of music right is just sad that people would write off the musical acts in this film because they are hip-hop. The artists chosen make great music for the most part... Common and the Roots are a couple of my favorite acts out right now.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 1:46 p.m. CST

    Lost skeleton

    by moondoggy2u

    Please understand, I'm not trying to be contrary or a troll. I noticed that you said--and i'm paraphrasing--that what is being played on the radios is basically what gives people who hate rap so much ammo. My question to you is if the mainstream (ie commercialized) rap consists of violence, drug endorsement, etc., would that not mean that I am right to say that the general medium of rap involves the very things I said above? Please understand, I'm not debating Rap as an artform. Granted, I dont feel that the bulk of rap as it has existed during the past twenty years constitutes music, but that is an entirely different discussion. I'm only talking about the messages being commonly used in the artfield.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 1:46 p.m. CST

    madlib and doom

    by chimcham3000

    yeah i could probably go for some madlib and mf doom in this flick but other than that this is the hip hop concert film the fans have been waiting for for too damn long.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 1:47 p.m. CST

    elP and OX

    by chimcham3000

    ok so maybe some elP and Cannibal Ox up in there too

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 1:48 p.m. CST


    by -guyinthebackrow

    You've never heard of the Fugees? Really?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 2:16 p.m. CST


    by Cameron1

    Hip-Hop is music, deal with it. You definition of music must be very very narrow if you discount hip-hop. And yes a lot og hip hop deals with guns and drugs some negatively some positively, it's a refelction of the people who nmake it and what they have experienced, there's nothing wrong with that.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 2:26 p.m. CST


    by Harry Weinstein

    Stetsasonic was, as they themselves pointed out back in the 80s, "The Original Hip Hop Band", instruments and all. Plus, from Stet came the deranged genius that is Prince Paul.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 2:57 p.m. CST

    Quint's problem is that he's old, not that he doesn'

    by FluffyUnbound

    like rap. So all of you mofos shouting "Racist" should step back. It's a fact of nature that, for the overwhelming majority of people, there's a day that comes between your 30th and 35th birthday when you realize that you don't know 90% of the people at the Grammy Awards. Quint is simply at that point in his life. As am I. I actually LOVE rap - I just don't have the time to get into new music, and music is like baseball: if you stop following it for a couple of years, when you pick it up again you never really know who everybody is anymore. Not like you did before.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 3 p.m. CST

    Dear chimcham3000


    If you had actually read my post you would have seen that I am well aware that racism exists in this country. (All of this country by the way, not just most of it as you so eloquently put it). You have also not seen very much of Dave Chapelle's comedy in general because 99.9% of it is making comments about race. Yeah, we need to discuss racial issues but Chapelle doesn't say what he says to find a solution, he's just telling jokes and he'd probably say as much. The problem with that is now that he's famous, his opinions are being heard by more people, and more specifically sheep like yourself who can't distinguish between reality and comedy. Also I didn't say anything about hip-hop so where did you get that from? In fact my opinion about the importance of hip-hop is so little that I usually don't comment on it at all. Oh and if your "intelligence" keeps you from coming up with anything better than ass monkey, I don't have anything to discuss with you. take care now.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 3 p.m. CST

    fatboys? sir mix a lot? run dmc? part deux

    by Da'Moose

    I'm wondering how he got away with such a uninformed sense of rap/hip hop history.... earliest incarnations? Try on some Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, or how about some Afrika Bambaataa and the Zulu nation, what about DJ Kool Herc? Kool Mo Dee? Kurtis Blow? KRS One and BDP? Shame on everyone defending hip-hop and rap without calling into question the statement that started the furor. And to the idiots calling rap "gutter music" and the like, take any modern musical genre be it alternative, hard rock, country, metal, all have their "gutter influences" the wholesome veneer of country especially ignores its storied and sordid past. Quint, I have to say that this review reeks of a self-imposed censorship that makes my brown skin crawl. Not everybody has to like everything, its really ok.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 3:14 p.m. CST

    What I find funny is...

    by PrinceRemy

    ..that whenever somebody wants to say that all rap isn't like "the mainstream crap", they immediately use 50 Cent as an example of that "crap". It's funny to me, because at one time, 50 WAS that heralded underground artist. Not know for his lyrics, no, but for his ultra-realistic rhymes. The major issue I take with most underground artists, is that their lyrics are super-obscure and seem to have no contact with reality. Are they creative? Without a doubt. But the reason that those same underground artists don't break through to the mainstream is because the average music listener doesn't want to put that much effort into figuring out their music choices...Now if you want to say that the average american music listener is too dumbed down...that's a whole different debate.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 3:23 p.m. CST

    much like jazz, the history of rap has been

    by HypeEndsHere

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 3:24 p.m. CST


    by HypeEndsHere

    the earliest sources and influences that created the form were a unique combination of black and white musical cultures.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 3:35 p.m. CST

    Here's the difference:

    by kintar0

    "I don't like rap or hip hop." Okay, whatever. You don't like rap or hip hop. "Rap and hip hop isn't music." Okay, you're a racist.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 4:01 p.m. CST

    No, PrinceRemy...

    by Lost Skeleton

    50 was never really respected as underground. Sure he flowed on a couple of mixtapes but I remember Jay-z hitting him with "I'm bout a dollar...who the f*6k is fifty cent?" It wasn't until 50 got with Em and Dre that his records sold. Still, 50's lyrics are pretty weak As for moondoggy2u, my argument doesn't back yours up because rock has a whole subgenre of racist and anti-female lyric (can't spell myso...) but it still is not only considered music, but it's lyrics are glossed over as a generation accepts them. My problem is your definition of music...does the definition stop at vocals? Is it because the lyrics are not sung in the traditional sense? Is classical or jazz music since there are no vocals? Is being able to dance to it make it music? Is it when the masses say it is music? (if so, your argument has already lost.) There is an argument in the Black community that states that the corporations who now own and produce these songs actually want the violent lyrics to sell to the young crowd. That said, a lot of country music has violent that music? I think we need to be clear that commerical music is not always a real indication of the quality of a genre. Would you say that Britney Spears is indicative of R & B? Hell, do you think R & B or Blues is music because hip hop is born out of the same branch as jazz, rock and blues. Is Shania Twain indicative of country? I think that your exposure to more hip hop artist may give you a better understanding to either back up or retract from your views. To blankly say that rap (hip hop) is not music without any real explanation of what you think music is or the definition of music is just an argument about attitude with very little basis.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 4:18 p.m. CST

    Funny nobody's mentioning his Oprah appearance.

    by Chastain-86

    You remember it -- the one where Dave couldn't have seemed crazier if he suddenly jumped up on the couch, and then sucked face with Katie Holmes in the stage wings. That motherfucker wasn't CUH-RAY-ZEE like zany, he was fuckin' CRAZY like Manson. I think there's a very, very small chance he'll come back one day to resurrect Chappelle's Show, but I can just about guarantee you it won't as a whole hold a candle to the earlier work. He's just simply gone through too much to regain that lightning in a bottle. And you know what that means, right? That's right, fuckers, SIX MORE YEARS OF CARLOS MENCIA. Thanks Dave, you crazy-ass millionaire -- you just screwed us all.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 4:20 p.m. CST

    Man, whatever happened to house music?

    by Doc_Strange

    It's gotta be the most soulful dance music out there but is being replaced by some awful breakbeat and trance. I guess you gotta be really high on XTC to enjoy that stuff. No disrespect towards hip-hop, but I don't listen anymore.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 4:34 p.m. CST

    fiddy cent's how to rob single...

    by JudgeNXcutioner

    is still one of the funniest hip hop tracks i've ever heard and this was before he got shot in the mouth and started sounding all slurred singing his rhymes!

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 4:41 p.m. CST

    Man, you guys...

    by Javeyjoe

    This talkback is crazy and a little scary. The very idea that people could argue and actually feel that hip-hop is not music in 2006 is scary. I for one can't wait to see this movie as I love the music of every artist, yes artist, involved in it. That doesn't mean I'm defending hip-hop because I love that funky mess. If you beat a stick rhythmically on a rock, it's music. If you walk in time with the beeping crosswalk indicator, it's music. And if you were to rap about how people chanting and singing and rhyming over music isn't music, it's music.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 4:50 p.m. CST

    Javeyjoe...well said...

    by Lost Skeleton

    it is just hard to argue with the illogical.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 4:58 p.m. CST

    Lost Skeleton

    by Javeyjoe

    It's just so strange. Even my mom would admit that hip-hop is music. My grandma would too.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 5:56 p.m. CST

    a few things..

    by ILK

    moondoggy2u.... Don't want to drag this out too long. But 1. I didn't call anyone racist. I said that it's a possibility. (go read my posts if you have to) 2. Individuals are responsible for their message/content, not a genre. 3. Rappers that rap about guns and violence are not FAKE, they're just not my thing (usually). SOME of them are fakes, as are a lot of the pop-rappers. (no other term for them that I can recall at the moment)

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:13 p.m. CST

    Lost Skeleton

    by moondoggy2u

    As I said earlier, the lyrics and message have nothing to do with it being music. You are quite correct in that other forms of music are used to communicate bad messages as well (and I'm against those, too). My question was if the Mainstream consists of mostly so and so lyrics, then wouldnt it be logical to say that the majority of whatever you are talking about consists of so and so? There seems to be a disconnect with you when someone tries to sepperate the is rap music debate from the what is rap's overall message debate. Now, if you want to get into why i dont believe the MAJORITY (not all) of rap is not music, it has to do with minimalism. To put it another way, if i were to present you with a painting, you would call it art (good or bad has nothing to do with it). Now, what about minimalism? If I were to hand you a panting with a triangle, or some other base shape, would it still be art? Some say yes, some say no. Now, what if I hand you a blank canvas? No paint at all--just the canvas. Is it still art? With the exception of a few, most would say no (I happen to agree with the majority--not because its the majority position, its simply my position happens to match the majority). Now, If i hand you a cd composed entirely of random pots banging, would that be considered music? And believe me, in real life, this h as been done. Well, the majority of rap does not use musical instruments. There is no singing. There is no melody. Is there a lyrical pattern? Of course there is--it is, after all, poetry. But does that constitute music? Thats it. If you want to get into believing that im some sort of racist, go ahead--knock yourself out. But dont think for one moment there arent other black people who feel the same way as I do, or have come to the same conclusion as I do. Now, I understand there are underground sounds and mixtures of rap/rock etc. I dont consider rap in and of itself bad. I simply find the majority of rap songs to be bad in content and frankly distasteful to my ears (sound wise). I also find heavy meatal to be distasteful in much the same fashion. So too, wi th country. So in conclusion, the content of the majority of rap songs has nothing to do with its musical classification. Its musical content (ie instruments and/or vocal harmonics) does, however. I hope you understand what I'm driving at. However, I fear you will simply cling to your grey blur of a mindset and simply dole out the accusations of racist and biggot. I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but experience has tought me differently.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:23 p.m. CST

    Thanks for responding in a civil fashion, ILK

    by moondoggy2u

    I know most people when they get into I hate rap rants they tend to get really angry and mean and quite honest, downright biggoted. believe me, there have been rap songs I have enjoyed (the ones that incorporated instruments or vocals and had a pretty positive message). I know I sound like a goody two shoes, but what can I say? I'm an idealist. In any case, if you mannage to get through the huuuge p ost i left, you'll understand what I'm talking about. I'm not saying anybody or anyone can't listen to what they want. I'm merely being judgemental about the majority of content thats marketed (whether rap, rock, pop, etc). And the only thing i will say is that the majority of rap songs being marketed (and thus IS the majority), I find to be too morally bankrupt. That's just my take on it. And by the way, I feel the same way about heavy metal and such. It was only in that last post that i devled into why i dont consider it music, which has nothing to do with why rap is good or bad. Anyway, thanks.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:34 p.m. CST

    so, moondoggy, do you hate...

    by Cameron1

    films like Goodfellas or The Godfather, Scarface; they revel in despicable behaviour they make it look glamorous. Yes they show the downside but so many, even mainstream hip hip songs (and yes depsite your narrow definition of music they are songs)talk about the badside as well as the glamour. If you discount any art because it deals with distasteful subject matter you are really missing out on a wealth of brilliant engaging art. Music doesn't necessarily have to consist of instruments anymore. It can be samples and scratches chanting or rhythmic speaking. The fact is, the most progressive boundary pushing original music is being made in rap/eletronica/d'n'b, melodies or not.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:41 p.m. CST

    unrelated, anyone know who performs this song???

    by Orionsangels

    whats the song in this clip? ---

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:41 p.m. CST

    until i hear the Beatles, Dylan, or Elvis of rap...

    by HypeEndsHere

    i'll refrain from calling it an art form. The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill came close, then she went nuts.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:45 p.m. CST

    The Dylan of rap? Public Enemy

    by Cameron1

    The Beatles of Rap? I'd be tempted to say DJ Shadow. and The Elvis? Jay Z of course.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:48 p.m. CST


    by moondoggy2u

    Very good questions, cameron. Im usually asked about those films quite a bit. Personally, I like both the Godfather and Scarface because they show what is so horrible about a life like that--the loss and dehumanization. Goodfellas, on the other hand, I've been of mixed minds--on one hand, it does show the bad sides, it seems to gloss it over--i dunno. In any case, I dont feel that something ceases to be art when it shows i message I dont like. But it is certainly an art that I will not care for, nor take to heart (other than to fight against the values that art represents). Put it to you this way: Hitler wrote Mein Kampf. Is that a work you will take to heart? Are those the ideals you will stand behind?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 6:56 p.m. CST

    Beatles i'd say De La Soul. though DJ shadow is good

    by HypeEndsHere

    Elvis (re: the racial aspects, The Beastie Boys more than M & M), and while Public Enemy is great, their lyrics are naive and political. Dylan was an actual writer that demands repeat listens to fully comprehend the content. just my $0.02.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:02 p.m. CST


    by Da'Moose

    You won't hear the Beatles, Elvis or Dylan of rap; all three white artists have openly acknowledged the music they STOLE from Black artists. The Beatles added drugs, Dylan revolutionary politics and Elvis sequins but the music remains based on Black blues, Negro spirituals and early Rock and Roll. You won't ever hear the "Beatles" of rap because the legacy of rap has yet to be fully realized. What you someday will hear are the KRS One's, Chuck D's and Grandmaster Flash's of whatever comes next. The commercialization of the worst elements of black music has been ongoing since the beginnings of recorded music, rap is no different. For every Outkast (BTW if you haven

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:04 p.m. CST

    naive and political

    by Da'Moose


  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:09 p.m. CST

    And Dylan was????

    by Da'Moose

    C'mon man listen to some of Dylan's lyrics....naive? political? How dare you in one breath attempt to use him as a yardstick to measure a genre that you obviously haven't much of a clue about, and a breath later, dismiss one of the most thoughtful, powerful and yes often misguided acts in music on the grounds that they were naive and political...please...

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:12 p.m. CST

    oh and another thing....

    by Da'Moose

    To be fair its not only Black music that suffers this kind of marginalization, Punk, Metal and Hardcore among others have been dismissed as non-musical by people who never bothered to take the time to actually listen.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:12 p.m. CST

    moondoggy & Hype

    by Cameron1

    Y'see for me, mdoggy, even stuff like Tupac or Biggie Smalls deals with the downside of the gangster/thug life, although I don't particularly care for those guys myself. However I won't discount there talent because they say things that I find questionable. Obviously I don't side with Mein Kampf, but if it were actually written really well I would be able to appreciate it on a purely aesthetic level but certainly not the message. I'm not a Christian I didn't like some of what Mel Gibson was saying with Passion of the Christ but it's still a heck of film in many ways. Hype, I went with Jay Z as Elvis cus of his work with Rick Rubin and his mixing of rock dynamics with Hip-Hop beats. I couldn't say De La Soul were The Beatles as they haven't ever done a Revolver, 3ft High and Rising is more Sgt Peppers/Abbey Road. Though I think you are half right IMO about Dylan/Public Enemy, I was thinking more of the protest type stuff, but lyrically they can't touch him. In fact Tupac might be nearer on a purely lyrical level.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:14 p.m. CST

    I have Speakerboxxx

    by HypeEndsHere

    oh, and fuck the STOLE bullshit. if you freely admit to them adding to what came before, then they are not stealing anything. no more than Outkast themselves stole from Blind Willie McTell. as for the not fully realized comment, i recall the Beatles hitting the big time only ten years after the creation of Rock n Roll in it's popular form (i'm going by the landmark "Rocket 88"). indeed Elvis was there almost at the very beginning. I'm a fan of hip-hop/rap. I have been ever since my friends went off into 80s hairband shit (I still have a hard time getting those references. quiz me on Kwame and Three Times Dope and I'm good). Rap has had 30 years to mature. It's not becoming a real art form because the artists are lacking. a lot of good stuff goes on underground though. but i was referring to the popular stuff. i did forget Outkast and Jay-Z. for that I apologize. how about a Langston Hughes of rap?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:16 p.m. CST

    the negro spirituals were taken from....

    by Cameron1

    scottish spirituals, however the rhythms are definitely from africa.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:20 p.m. CST

    oh, and Dylan was pushed forward by his

    by HypeEndsHere

    countercultural contemporaries as a political songwriter. read his biography AND his lyrics. he would be the first to tell you he was not pushing forward an agenda. it's easy to think that if all you listen to is Hurricane. i really should put more of an effort into listening to Tupac again. everyone says he's great, so I'll give it another go.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:27 p.m. CST

    Dylan certainly became politicised though

    by Cameron1

    It may not have been his starting point unlike Public Enemy, but then he was a middle class jew (like me) not a poor black man. And don't be too excited about Tupac, lyrically he's damn fine musically though it's all been done before.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:38 p.m. CST

    Popularizing and stealing

    by Da'Moose

    They like many others...Zeppelin, The Stones etc. only really "admitted" what they had taken and from whom after the fact as the climate would no permit them to do so at the time. To take without acknowledgement for whatever reason is stealing, period. As far as Dylan is concerned, I am not a student of his work I admit, what I do know of him is mostly through documentaries and performance, as you should give Tupac a closer listen, I should Dylan. Cameron, Negro spirituals had little to do with Scottish spirituals, the assertion of that belief is absurd. Negro spirituals were a product of three basic elements, the

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:39 p.m. CST

    Saw the trailer for this movie..

    by Windowlicker74

    I just don't understand what the fuzz is all about. Some negro walking around town with a megaphone inviting people for his party??? What the fuck was Gondry thinking?

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:42 p.m. CST

    I don't like hip-hop, but it IS music... at least...

    by Novaman5000

    As much as screaming industrial metal is music, anyway, and that shit is just screams and nails on a chalkboard with overdriven guitars. Just because something doesn't sound like traditional music, doesn't mean it isn't. Also, everyone who has EVER HEARD MUSIC before (and that's everyone), and then goes on to create their own has been inspired by other artists and are probably taking something from them, even if it's subtle. That's how the creation process works, artists build off of one another's accomplishments. It doesn't mean it's stealing... as long as it's not directly ripping off the other artist, anyway. It happens in every outlet from books to films, too.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:46 p.m. CST


    by Cameron1

    I'm open to be persuaded certainly, I always thought they weren't related but I've read a fair few interesting articles about the connections. I agree with why the spirituals were there, but the actual structures and compositions were influenced by scottish choral singing. And I think that's the point everyone is influenced by other things, it doesn't diminish the end product it's just fun to understand where those people got some of their ideas from.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:50 p.m. CST


    by Da'Moose

    I agree, it is often so much easier to dismiss something than accept that it may just appeal to someone else and not you. And yes art is a process by which bits are taken or borrowed from those who came before. But I do have a problem with any artist who does not acknowledge the fact that he or she has done this. Or worse yet, as many of the early white rock and roll artists did, make gobs and gobs of money off the backs of men who often died penniless. Praising them while at the same time not at all attempting to preserve the music they so blatantly ripped off. Call me petty but that just doesn't seem right to me.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:51 p.m. CST

    I agree...

    by Novaman5000

    and I am in no way defending that kind of behavior.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 7:59 p.m. CST


    by Da'Moose

    I think I remember reading a thesis or some other scholarly article about the commonalities. To be honest, I'm hardly a scholar so what I absorbed was (I'm sure) about 10% of what actually was written. The interesting thing that I do remember was that there were parallels drawn between a few different diverse musical "styles" often unrelated and geographically distant in origin. The basic gist being that like the assertion that there is a universal human tendency toward structured language, music and tribal rhythms are innate across racial and cultural boundaries as well.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 8:02 p.m. CST

    Damn and my point was....

    by Da'Moose

    that although they share some of the same structure there isn't anything conclusive that says one came from the other.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 8:25 p.m. CST

    by HypeEndsHere

    it's a shame we didn't get to see it in the US, but in the UK in the early sixties both the Animals and the Rolling Stones were given music specials and they had Howlin Wolf and John Lee Hooker and others flown in to perform on the shows. the Rolling Stones put out 3 albums before even writing a song. they were all blues covers. i think it's somewhat unfair to hold it against new performers that they make a greater amount of money or gain wider exposure. i mean, brilliant comedians worked for years on the stage and because of the invention of film, Chaplin became larger than them all. the blues musicians weren't victims of those that built onto their work. they were unfortunately, victims of the times. and though most of the British invasion used the blues as a springboard to stardom, it's interesting to note that almost every one of them returned to European roots later in their career. albums like Sgt. Pepper's owe more to music hall than anything. and as a sidebar: being civil is fun.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 9:32 p.m. CST

    Moondoggy2u = whitey

    by Sicuv Uyall

    Rap is mysogynistic, hateful, and racist.... and it's all directed towards YOU, Moondoggy!!! You're homo dumbshit!! If I could say that more eloquently, i'd be a rapper, you bitch!!

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 9:40 p.m. CST

    Alucinor 11 = idiot

    by Sicuv Uyall

    I've noticed that the issue of race is a very touchy subject on this geek website. What Alucinor is trying to say is that the KKK represents a group of people who have been treated unequally due to widespread racism in the early half of the 20th century, and decided to fight for equal rights, probably as a response to group riots, police beatings that were prominent in those times. That's what you mean by comparing the KKK to the Black Panther party right, alucinor... you dumb fuck.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 9:50 p.m. CST

    Sicuv Uyall

    by moondoggy2u

    Trust me, Sicuv, your eloquence, maturity, and clearly unprejudiced mind shows you to be perfect rapper material. Good luck

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:39 p.m. CST

    "Juice? What's juice? Gimme some drink! It's green!"

    by ZombieSolutions

    I love Chappelle. I'm gonna smoke some reefer and watch this movie and laff and rock.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 10:48 p.m. CST


    by one9deuce

    I am a little confused by one of you comments. You seem to imply that Chaplin became famous because of the invention of film, if I understand you right. But Chaplin didn't make his first film until it had been around for a couple of decades. Also, I am no music expert, but according to the dictionary definition of music, rap IS music.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:12 p.m. CST

    i just meant to imply Chaplin became immortal

    by HypeEndsHere

    because he was captured on film. there were tons of people doing what he did on the stage before and after. i was just saying that the technology broadcast his talents. Milton Berle became famous because of the medium of television. the underappreciated bluesmen in the jook joints played for years for only a shack full of people, but had there been a wider audience in that day and age, maybe it would've been difficult for people to 'steal' the blues without giving credit. so in short: film made Chaplin famous, but it wasn't developed FOR him. i hope that makes some sort of sense.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:44 p.m. CST

    LOL, Brodester.

    by moondoggy2u

    so..he's pissed because we the racists force him to be racist to be funny. Way to take the moral highground. Ahh, gotta love the theory of personal responsibility.

  • Feb. 28, 2006, 11:47 p.m. CST

    F- Chapelle

    by EUROPA

    F- Chapelle and his cry baby ass. The worst part of his show was "the music" what is it now this week does he want to be rich and famous again...or is he going to go run and hide again??

  • March 1, 2006, 12:35 a.m. CST

    brodester ...are you for real??

    by Windowlicker74

    sociological genius? tortured soul ??WAHAHAHAA the guy is just bad comedy man. crybabies

  • March 1, 2006, 1:12 a.m. CST

    It's just a bloody concert

    by hiperaktiv

    so i dont know what kind of "filmmaking" or "direction" you'd hope to see from Micehl Gondry, director of one of the most over rated movies in the world. He should prolly stick to concerts and music videos actually now that i think about it.

  • March 1, 2006, 1:48 a.m. CST

    How come every time rap is brought up...

    by Meremoth

    Oh he's a rasict, oh he's ignorant. Fuck that. If you really hate the rappers tear apart there lines. Questioning raps legitimacy as music won't help. Obvioulsy the backround beats are muscial. Most rappers also tend to have a different kind of harmonious rapping voice as opposed to their normal voice. Some don't, but most do. And yes there is a lot of bullshit out there IE: 50 Cent, but you'll fnd that in the rock world as well IE: Fall Out Boy. So everyone just calm done. Say fuck the media and go underground.

  • March 1, 2006, 1:54 a.m. CST

    Rap as an artform isn't musical?

    by SirBiatchReturns

    yet it has its roots in jazz and blues? I dunno about you, but when i hear a Pete Rock beat or DJ Premier, the first thing that comes to mind is 'wow. music!' But there is something important. If you cannot dance or do not at least understand rhythmn in a dancing sense, then actually your statements on hip hop would be very much useless.

  • March 1, 2006, 2:03 a.m. CST

    besides, isn't it funny...

    by SirBiatchReturns

    how 80% of the so-called garbage music (rap) selling right now is bought by non-black people? You know why? because what you're seeing on MTV is rap-influenced POP. and quite frankly, surburbia tend to love POP. a little racial statistic for you.

  • March 1, 2006, 3:05 a.m. CST


    by MCVamp

    LL Cool J is the Neil Diamond of hip-hop. DON'T CALL IT A COMEBACK!

  • March 1, 2006, 8:36 a.m. CST

    Hey TupacToo I hate to break the news for you

    by Windowlicker74

    Racism is not exclusively a white vs black thing, It's a matter of majority vs minority. If it were the other way around you guys would probably be just as bad. Look at what happened in Rwanda, where a million people were killed just because they're from another tribe.Or Sudan. Or is that also the white man's fault? Oh and SirBiatch, stick to White Chicks, will you?

  • March 1, 2006, 8:41 a.m. CST


    by Sicuv Uyall

    What Chappelle does is to stick your racism right in your racist face and get a response.If your eyes are open, you can either laugh at it realize how racist you are. Obviously, you're offended so you must be an extreme racist. Oh, and Moondoggy. Trust me. You are an idiot as well.

  • March 1, 2006, 9:09 a.m. CST

    Sicuv Uyall

    by moondoggy2u

    Interesting logic--since I am not one for race jokes or those that spew them, I am a racist.

  • March 1, 2006, 9:19 a.m. CST

    Next thing you know, Im gonna be called an anti-dentite

    by moondoggy2u

  • March 1, 2006, 9:28 a.m. CST

    windowlicker, stick to your moniker

    by SirBiatchReturns

    i know it sucks to see someone like me actually have an opinion, whether you agree or not, as opposed to dickriding whatever movie is accepted as cool. Continue licking those Bruce Campbell posters on your bedroom wall. silly geek.

  • March 1, 2006, 9:46 a.m. CST

    I'm going to play my rendition of 4'33

    by moondoggy2u

    Just so everybody in here appreciates the full aspects of the laissez-faire approach to music, I now give you, 4'33:

  • March 1, 2006, 9:48 a.m. CST

    4'33" continued

    by moondoggy2u

  • March 1, 2006, 9:49 a.m. CST

    I thank you for your time. Encore, anyone?

    by moondoggy2u

  • March 1, 2006, 10:05 a.m. CST

    Anchorite you ignorant slut...

    by UncleEthan

    Do you even have the slightest idea what you are talking about? What do you know about the Black Patners? If you are a contemporary of theirs you know what propaganda the FBI put out about them. You've heard the need to seek the truth. These men and women were community activist. These MEN and WOMEN fed children, trained people for work, and provided physical protection for people who were not getting it from the authorities. Usually I would let this TB ride as just a collection of the ignorant, but the Panthers are so far above you and your hate that this must be said. TheUnited States Government lied about the Panthers. The US GOV. murder specific Panthers. The US GOV. did to the Panthers what they did to AIM, the SDS, the Weathermen, and other groups of the time. The paid infiltrators to go into the groups and sow deciet and decent. They paid people to go into these groups and provide these WARRIORS (When have you ever fought over anything that didn't involve nipples in a Star Trek episode) with narcotics, women, etc. These MEN and WOMEN were not racsist...they loved their own people. Really. Go back and forth as ignorant as you want...but don't talk about something you have no clue about. Especially when you hide behind the aninimonity of an internet talk back and talk shit. If you are really against the Panthers and what they stood for. Why don't you get out and protest against them. Why don't you pickett this racsist film. Be prepared to state your argument and be willing to fucking die....thePanthers were. What would you die for? Not a goddamn thing.

  • March 1, 2006, 10:09 a.m. CST

    My bad...

    by UncleEthan

    I stand behind my last post as a defence of the Panthers...however I misskvnllxaqeed the Lenny Bruce bit in Anchorite's post and must apologize for any personal attack on him. I do get what your doing. Sad thing is, Hoss, I fear that mostof the numbnuts on here will not.

  • March 1, 2006, 10:12 a.m. CST


    by Joyride

    It amazes me how most talk backs that have to do with black people or movies end up creating talkbacks about racism on this site. My theory is that certain people among us feel threatened by african americans who make enough of an impact on the enteryainment world to warrant their own articles on AICN. I mean, damn, if you don't like hip-hop, which is obviously what this movie is about, then why take the time to post on the talkback. If I see an article on a subject I'm not interested in, I won't take it as an oppurtunity to let the world know how much that particular subject bores me.

  • March 1, 2006, 10:22 a.m. CST

    Uncle Ethan

    by moondoggy2u

    I'm curious about something. If the panthers were above hate and the bad aspects of the panthers is to be attributed only to government manipulation (undercover agents, legislation,etc.), how do you explain Huey P. Newton?

  • March 1, 2006, 10:26 a.m. CST

    Damn enter button.

    by moondoggy2u

    I meant to say, how do you explain huey P. Newton's policy being overthrown and the majority of the panthers embracing Eldridge Cleaver's approach and views?

  • March 1, 2006, 10:27 a.m. CST

    "you gotta be really high on XTC to enjoy that stuff"

    by I_Snake_Plissken

    One, two, three, four, five, senses working ooooovertiiimmmmme (c'mon, I'm not THAT old am I?)

  • March 1, 2006, 10:35 a.m. CST

    and just to head you off at the pass

    by moondoggy2u

    I meant the majority of the panthers OUTSIDE the US. Basically, it split the panthers. What I'm basically asking is, how does Cleaver fit into being an FBI stooge?

  • March 1, 2006, 11:11 a.m. CST

    Just because...

    by UncleEthan

    Because the group changed leaders and philosophies does not make all that has come before or since null and void. I never said, by the way, that they were above anything. Were they a hate group....hell no. You don't see the KKK or Aryan Nations doing community service in trailer parks. That said, your question is insightful and interesting. Sure there were divisions and struggles that were home grown. Even within local churches you get personality and theological conflicts. I, for one, have never considered Cleaver a stooge of any sort. I think the brothers had a legitimate difference of opinion. I also believe that the distrust and paranoia brought on in a hostile enviroment; created, in part, by the US Gov., definately played a part in the split. I also think that Power corrupts. Can't avoid it. Everybody likes to be on the big stage. Look at John Trudell, Russel Means, and Russell Banks...hell, watch as the right is beginning to tear itself apart over the port issue and other policies. It is the natural way of things. Selah.

  • March 1, 2006, 11:27 a.m. CST

    Quint was cool till he admited....

    by tHEmOOG

    he liked Tenacious D. I hate Jack Black. He ruined King Kong and pretty much everything else he touches. Jack Black must die.

  • March 1, 2006, 11:35 a.m. CST

    excellent points, UncleEthan

    by moondoggy2u

    Power does indeed do that. Then again, does power corrupt, or does power attract the corrupt? In any case, if you've read my previous posts on this talkback, its pretty obvious Im somewhat an anti cleaver kinda guy. I'm not saying the black panthers didnt have the right to be a militia. However, I do question the the actions and beliefs Cleaver aspoused (discrimination, barbarism, etc.). I'm not saying Hoover was any different in his techniques with the Panthers (and every other group Hoover deemed seditious). I am saying however, there were many, like Cleaver, who were filled with hate and found the panthers to be ideal for their more...radical ideals. Obviously men like Cleaver have their reasons, but equally obvious is the distinction between a reason and a mandate. Anywho, Uncle Ethan, thanks for not delving into the tired old "you racist pig" rhetoric. Its pretty refreshing when you can have a nice dialogue, huh?

  • March 1, 2006, 11:45 a.m. CST

    Brother Moondoggy...

    by UncleEthan

    You are preaching to the choir, hoss. I'm on the same page as far a personal philosophy. I just hate to see a group like the Panthers who are COMPLEX be reduced, by some wing nut, to a "hate group" and lumped in with the likes of the cracker elite. As a for instance in where I am coming from personally: I understand the greivences of the Palastinian People. They should, however, followed the path of Ghandi and Dr, King and they would have their own nation right this minute. As to your comment about constructive dialogue- when people do not make ignorant, hasty generalizations but ask thoughtful, thought provoking questions that make the other guy work hard- it's easy to have a good conversation.

  • March 1, 2006, 11:48 a.m. CST


    by moondoggy2u

    Well, I dont know about cracker elite and all that, but i do understand the sentiment. As far as inciteful discussions, I am a republican and my wife is a Democrat. You should be in our house every election year;)

  • March 1, 2006, noon CST

    arrgghhh. I meant "insightful."

    by moondoggy2u

  • March 1, 2006, 12:12 p.m. CST


    by UncleEthan

    By "Cracker Elite" I mean those groups like the KKK, Aryan Brotherhood, Skin Heads, John Birch Society- real hate groups that populate the back woods and trailer parks of our great nation. Those are hate groups. On a personal poor guy. I bet it's tough around the house during elections. So are you a Grand Old Party Republican who believes in smaller government, less government intrusion into our personal lives, liberty, and all of those good things or one of the neo-con types who seemed to have high jacked a political party that, I feel, is puling away from it's own noble roots. Short Version: The Republicans of Lincoln, TR, and Ike(In my opinion the last President that wasn't some sort of scoundrel) or the party of the Bush, Cheney, Saudi-Arabian Oil Conglomerates?

  • March 1, 2006, 12:28 p.m. CST

    uncle ethan--Im asked that a lot here in NY

    by moondoggy2u

    Well, obviously GOP. Concerning oil conglomerates...ehh. Believe it or not, I see nothing wrong with having ginormous oil companies. Remember, if you have less government intrusion, then you by deffinition have to have a free market. In any case, I believe the only thing I like about the current president has been the willingness to confront the terrorist issue in what I believe to be the best possible way. You and I can debate that later, im sure. However, in every other issue, particularly the spending, I've been opposed. Save for his willingness to attempt to tackle larger national issues and refusal to raise taxes, I find his domestic policies to be little different from Clinton. As you can imagine, my view sorta gets me in hot water from both sides of the political fense. How about yourself?

  • March 1, 2006, 12:31 p.m. CST

    And as far as me being a poor guy

    by moondoggy2u

    nahh. The truth is, I am the luckiest man in the world to have earned her love and trust. We both agree that morality is not something that is left or right, but, rather, degrees of height.

  • March 1, 2006, 12:38 p.m. CST

    The Middle

    by UncleEthan

    I'm the true middle brother...aside from being a pacifist...I agree that from Bush I to Clinton to Bush II the paymasters have been the same. They are opporating out of the same play book. My only divergence from what your saying is that I believe that, while Islamic violence and attempted facsism is a real issue...the threat of terror has been used to push questionable policies at best. There are people making a ton of money and using or current geo-political situation to their political and economic advantage. That, is truly ugly. PS- I don't mind big companies or free markets (All for them as long as they don't involve selling American workers out to over seas business interest like the Chi-coms)...I mind when they attempt to high-jack public policy for their own financial enrichment.

  • March 1, 2006, 1:01 p.m. CST

    uncle eathan

    by moondoggy2u

    yeah, i agree with you about the principles of greed. I dont think, of course, you can ever take that out of politics. My wife is very much a pacifist, like you. As you can imagine, I dont subscribe to pacifism. Heck, I came within inches of joining as an officer in the marines;)

  • March 1, 2006, 2:52 p.m. CST


    by UncleEthan

    From the jump, brother, I missed the full import of your post until the end. I never said I neccesarily looked up to the Black Panther Party. I admire many of the things they acomplished, but I would find myself in agreement more with a MLK or post-Mecca Malcolm X than Cleaver, Mao,or Lennin.(John Lennon was cool) I was simply not wanting them to be lumped in with outright HATE groups that opporate from a position of absolute ignorance like the KKK, Aryans, Muslim Brother, Five Percenters, et al... You mentioned Farrakhan, in my opinion he is a beast. I'm currently working on a piece right now comparing the "war" between The Honorable Elijah Muhammed and Malcolm X, to the war between the Umyaads and Ali(the son-in-law and champion of the Prophet Muhammed) during the early days of Islam.(Thus creating the Suni and Shite sects) I admire Malcolm a great deal, but I think the Nation itself, while acomplishing some positive things regarding black identity and pride, has been a devicive force in Black American culture. I cannot abide by the Anti-Semmintism. I strongly believe that that Louis Farrakahn had more than a little hand in the death of Malcolm X...a true Muslim and great man.

  • March 1, 2006, 2:54 p.m. CST


    by UncleEthan

    My handle on here is taken from "The Searchers" easily one of the five greatest American films. Good looking out.

  • March 1, 2006, 7:09 p.m. CST

    I Like REAL Hip Hop

    by ZombieSolutions

    the ROOTS, MOS DEF, Talib Kweli, et al. basically, the guys Chappelle likes. All of that top 40 bullshit (50 cent, the Game, whatever) sucks shit, however.

  • March 1, 2006, 8:01 p.m. CST

    Moondoggy2u + Uncle Ethan

    by Sicuv Uyall

    I think we have a love connection going on here.

  • March 1, 2006, 8:24 p.m. CST


    by UncleEthan

    All American discourse doesn't have to be couched in vitriol and hate...even if the two parties disagree. So sure, that could be a type of love. Love for my fellow countryman even if I don't like everything he is into...It's called patriotism...Bill O'reilly should check it out.

  • March 1, 2006, 10:16 p.m. CST


    by pokadoo

    I was thinking about XTC (the band) when i read that too! Funny. Also, while i'm here, anyone wanting to check out some hip-hop that's not about Bling n Bitches, check out MF DOOM and his various alter-egos. Ace! ps: ppprrrrr

  • March 1, 2006, 10:40 p.m. CST

    Aww, Uncle Ethan, and I was gonna pick out china...

    by moondoggy2u


  • March 2, 2006, 10:01 a.m. CST

    I hate Bill O'Reilly

    by Sicuv Uyall

    How can someone who makes sense half the time fuck it up by being ignorant and obnoxious the rest of the time? The same goes for Bill Maher. And I'm probably way off track from Chappelle's Block Party but notice how most of these other talkbacks are too.

  • March 2, 2006, 5:31 p.m. CST

    snake, i too still own skylarking &

    by ashhole

    dukes of the stratosphear. which brings me to my point. none of us has the right, qualification, or purpose to deem something music or not music. not even qualified, professional music critics say something they don't like isn't music. if you don't like hip hop, cool. i don't like pop. i think it's more marketing than art and i hate that, but it's still music. it's just not music i listen to. when you come to the table stating that hip hop is not music, when the genre has sold hundreds of millions of albums over a nearly 30 year span, you only remove yourself from the realm of relevant, informed discourse. say you don't like the sound, the lyrical content, the public personae of artists, make all the generalizations you want, but to question whether or not hip hop is music is absurd.

  • March 2, 2006, 6:17 p.m. CST

    hey, ashhole, read about John Cage.

    by moondoggy2u

    When you do, you will understand my questions concerning the definition of music. Its not a prejudice. As I said at the very beginning, its a question of minimalism. At what point does something cease to be music? Read up on the man(look in wikipedia if you want--its a fairly thorough article). After you read it, you will understand why I ask that, okay?

  • March 2, 2006, 7:17 p.m. CST

    Here's what i read about John Cage

    by pokadoo

    "Wherever we are, what we hear is mostly noise. When we ignore it, it disturbs us. When we listen to it, we find it fascinating. The sound of a truck at 50 m.p.h. Static between the stations. Rain. We want to capture and control these sounds, to use them, not as sound effects, but as musical instruments. Cage on the future of music - from a lecture given in 1937" I bet he liked a bit of Public Enemy.

  • March 2, 2006, 9:09 p.m. CST

    I agree, pokadoo, he would.

    by moondoggy2u

    Since I find his definition to be subjective, I disagree with it. And before anybody gets on my case, I know what I said takes a lot of brass to write. However, you cannot tell me that 4'33" is music. Its a statement. Similarly, a model airplane that you build yourself isnt art--its a craft. If you read up on Cage's "school," you would have undoubtedly learned that it almost entirely consisted of art students, not music students. Following Cage's definition, as appears to be yours, pokadoo, I could bang a pot for an hour with no discernable rhythm and it would be considered music. Definitions must be objective, pokadoo. Having a subjective definition to something is the same as having no definition at all. So if anything is music, than nothing is music. I admit philosophy is getting a bit heady for this sort of tb, so I thank you for taking the time to read it, pokadoo, and not getting into the "you suck" sorta statements;)

  • March 2, 2006, 9:13 p.m. CST

    Cage's definition continued.

    by moondoggy2u

    Basically, what I just wrote above could technically be considered music: i made sound when I typed the keys. If you follow the patterns I presented above, you too can play my music. See what I mean? If you take his definition to its logical conclusion, it gets kinda wacky.

  • March 2, 2006, 10:35 p.m. CST

    Well, some people like wacky

    by pokadoo

    Your perfectly entitled to your opinion about rap music and art rock, but to some people, a person banging a pot for an hour with no discernable rhythm IS considered music. I'm sure a lot of Sonic Youth/Mike Patton/Kelly Clarkson fans would love to hear that as support act for their idols. Could be a new career choice there for you, Moondoggy!*just kidding-don't get mad!* Also, i'm curious, is it just acts like 50 cent & Biggie that put you off Rap? I find it hard to believe you've never shaken your butt to Run DMC, A Tribe called Quest or Outkast!

  • March 2, 2006, 10:52 p.m. CST

    Lol, pokadoo--where's my pot???

    by moondoggy2u

    Oh, I'm not put off by all rap. Truth is, I do like some Run DMC, i like some Outkast, etc. Rap is in and of itself, no big deal to me. What I dont like is gangsta rap. I should also point out that to me, at a certain point, rap ceases to be music--basically when there is no singing and no instruments. However, if you have music, and the act of rapping is included, then I'm all there. I guess I just listen to music, you know? I mean music in the strictest sense. Snobbish? I suppose. You have to understand, I was raised on classical.