Feb. 17, 2006, 2:16 a.m. CST
Feb. 17, 2006, 2:25 a.m. CST
has everyone heard that the season finale, Lay Down your Burdens Part 2, is going to be an hour and a half instead of an hour?
Feb. 17, 2006, 3:46 a.m. CST
Enjoyed Delany's performance a lot last week, added quite a bit of depth to an archetypal character on the page.
Feb. 17, 2006, 4:24 a.m. CST
by JT Kirk
Doubt it, this ship seems to have more disposable command staff cast members than Star Trek:TNG had background extras. I swear, the Pegasus must have been the colonies' dumping ground for shitty, useless officers destined to get removed. Hopefully tonight's ep won't just be another hamfisted sequence of Adama & son arguing with Pegasus command officer X, but have some actual meat to the story too that leads us SOMEWHERE.
Feb. 17, 2006, 5:14 a.m. CST
when this season is over. I've really been enjoying it so far (except for Scar, which I thought sucked wang)
Feb. 17, 2006, 5:39 a.m. CST
Pegasus Commanding officer = Defence Against the Dark Arts teacher in Harry Potter. You get one innings then BAM, you are outta there !
Feb. 17, 2006, 5:51 a.m. CST
Requirements: ability to not live long enough to have your character develop Location: Pegasus...followed by empty space Hours Needed: Very few...the fewer the better. Disclamer: The Colonial Fleet is not responsible for your impending death (which will happen), and previous deaths in this post are purely coincidental and includes complications with a hot cylon blond and bad luck in the black market.
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:13 a.m. CST
boomer, six, xena the warrior journalist, kevin spacey lookalike, and the black doctor. who's the sixth?
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:26 a.m. CST
Was Callum Keith Rennie. Think he was the one they threw out the airlock... He's in the opening sequence every week - blonde fella. Was on Due South after the original American cop buggered off.
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:29 a.m. CST
"Rumor has it I don't know much about military protocol. But I do know that a person who commands more than one ship is called an admiral."
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:33 a.m. CST
Don't forget Cylon Model #1 - the old, legacy, Glen A Larson style Centurion seen in the museum during the pilot mini-series. And Cylon Model #2 which is the new, improved Centurion. And do the Raiders / Heavy Raiders count as a Cylon model as well? The episode where Starbuck crash landed would seem to hint so.
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:47 a.m. CST
Enough with the semi-famous guest stars, use some talented unknowns, at this rate Carrot-Top will be the 12th Cylon model
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:55 a.m. CST
They never said what the 12 models were. Couldn
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:56 a.m. CST
They never said what the 12 models were. Couldn
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:56 a.m. CST
I think the reference was to Lee, not to Bill.
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:05 a.m. CST
its was 12 models of the souled Cylons. It has been pretty much confirmed that the walking toasters do NOT have a soul nor do they get resurected. Unless the Basestars do too (I doubt it they look to be legitimate ships commanded by a Cylon and not a Cylon themselves) that would leave 7 not 9.
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:25 a.m. CST
for a multiple episode arc.
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:39 a.m. CST
If the toasters do not have souls what about the Cylon Raiders? If i recall, wasn't scar about a resurected raider that hated human kind?
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:51 a.m. CST
"Second, you must be understood." "Huh-whaaa?" "Third, you must be pleasing." "Do I please you? Do you find me pleasing?" "And you must have a wire rack."
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:16 a.m. CST
by Mr Nice Gaius
FYI - CHUD apparently has it on good authority that the BSG season finale is going to be 90 minutes long. As this show seems to have a knack for great cliffhangers, I'm expecting another doozy.
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:18 a.m. CST
I was sure Billy was going to be a Cylon until they bumped him off last week. Of course, they could surprise everyone by bringing him back as a Cylon reveal in some future episode. But Gaeta and Mrs. Tigh...both are in places of influence over the major players (which is why I thought Billy was one). And I'm also thinking Six and Boomer are part of one Cylon faction, while Xena is stepping up to take over another.
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:29 a.m. CST
I've actually always felt, and I know no one else will agree (because it defeats the purpose of a lot of conversations held with 6) that Baltar is a cylon. This way the cylons could transmit 6 right into his consciousness (like a reverse resurrection)with no need for a chip, plus 6 is always telling him he isn't one of the humans (though I admit this is probably more of her way of manipulating him.) I just thought it would be well played, since the cylons, via 6, are manipulating him into gaining more and more power (and the stupid twat also gave Pegasus-6 a frakking nuke.)
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:36 a.m. CST
I think it is probable that he is a Cylon, but I hope not. It makes his character infinitely more nefarious and despicable if he is truly a human traitor. If he were a Cylon, he is just doing his job. Also, if he is a Cylon, then they should just come out and reveal it. Nobody at this point would be all that shocked.
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:45 a.m. CST
I see it this way: the toasters are the "primitive" Cylons, basically robots. They have AI, but no souls, and are not resurrected. (What's to resurrect?) The Raiders are an intermediate stage on the way to having a soul. As Boomer said in season one: they're like pets, trained animals. Alive, yes. Sentient, marginally. The raider Scar was like the shark in Jaws -- a predator with some ability to remember and recognize its prey. But probably not an ego or identity in the sense we would understand that term. (Question: did Scar only start to become more of an individual after the resurrection ship was destroyed and it could no longer travel from one ship-body to another?) Then there are the 12 top-level Cyclon models that look like us. They are definitely "souled." To sum up, the Cylon types recapitulate Cyclon evolution -- we are seeing three different phases of their developmental history. The more organic (flesh & blood) a type is, the more likely they are to manifest souls & resurrect.
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:52 a.m. CST
Battlestar is still good though-except for the primitive technology.
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:57 a.m. CST
Campaign to unseat Roslin? Give me a freakin' break. That damn epiphanies episode may have ruined the entire series going forward. I'll keep watching and (hopefully) enjoying, but I'm mucho concerned with the direction this show is going in.
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:02 a.m. CST
tell me you geeks aren't going to buy one of these: http://www.rebelscum.com/TF2006/tf06-hasbroTS/default.asp (scroll down for the galactica ones...) oh, and what was wrong with Scar, other than the "where-the-fuck-did-that-come-from" love side-story? Bring it on dad from Home Alone.
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:03 a.m. CST
When I was a kid, I remember giggling when I first heard Starbuck say it.
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:06 a.m. CST
plans on bringing him back. On the podcast Moore said that the actor was getting so many TV and movie offers that they didn't want to hold him back from a bigger career. He was a supporting player so he didn't work all the time on the show.
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:08 a.m. CST
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:10 a.m. CST
Agree that it'd be way more interesting with Baltar as 100% organic manmeat. It's too easy to make him a toaster, and we know MooreRon doesn't like the easy way out. On that note, I'm pretty sure te Big R is going to craft the Sympathizers/Rebels as sympathetically as possible in the coming arc, and make Roslin seem Cheney-esque in her power-grubbing push to protect against Al-Cylona. Enjoy the ride, folks.
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:15 a.m. CST
Over at sci-fi.com, in the BSG bboard, they had a link to this pic showing the new Peg skipper DOA.
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:16 a.m. CST
Still like Frell tho'...
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:24 a.m. CST
When the cylons talk about "souls" does anyone think they really mean some type of spirit-thing? If so, I'm not trying to argue with that. But, if they mean soul in broader sense, in the sense that some philosophers might describe the self, as a continuous stream of consciousness (in the sense of I can remember doing something ten years ago as myself having done it) then it's possible the toasters have souls, too. It's definitely true that the raiders have souls. I don't think Scar would only become aware of his indiviuality after it was threatened (by not being able to appear in a new "body", since he would have to be aware of his individuality in order to feel it threatened. And, yes, I know it's just a tv show. Also, unless 6 was lying, she did tell Gaius outright that he was human "Do you want to know why God chose you above all humans?" in Kobol's Last Gleaming pt.2; I don't remember her ever lying before (inside his head anyway; she's less honest when in a body.)
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:47 a.m. CST
by Sans Souci
What chances the 12th model Cylon is a sexless man-woman in a powder blue note-spangled jacket, sent to serenade unsuspecting Colonial kiddies in their bunks while conning them into purchasing musical insturments handmade by old ladies?
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:49 a.m. CST
of a cool classic space opera (yes, I am talking about the original) and turnt it into pretentious post 9/11-paranoia dreck. What`s the big deal?
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:27 a.m. CST
More and more I think the destruction of the resurrection ship in 2x12 marks a turning point in the series overall and Cylon psychology / metaphysics / mission in particular. Their entire religion is built on a literal "afterlife" -- they can't die! Except, oops, now they can. The last *four* (jeez) episodes have been pretty much Cylon-free, focusing instead on character exploration & political divisions within the fleet. ("Scar" was more concerned with Starbuck's emotional troubles, using the Great White Raider as a catalyst.) Cylon tactics have changed and become more hesitant and subtle now that their lives are on the line &, as you point out, the "continuous stream of consciousness" is no longer guaranteed. The final three episodes are likely to bring this issue (of the Cylon's negotiation with their changed circumstances) back with a vengeance.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:29 a.m. CST
The trailer seemed to suggest this, but who knows....
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:32 a.m. CST
by Dark Vapor
its a sci-fi show that is actually good you piece of stool. Anyone who uses the "word" TURNT doesn't have a valid opinion anyway.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:34 a.m. CST
I'm guessing that the logical thing to do would be six males, six females, and representatives of each race. So I would expect there to be 3 more males, 3 more females, with at least 1 asian male and 1 black female (Duala?). I'm not sure they've decided on Ellen, and surely there are good arguments that she is a Cylon, but I prefer that she just be a shitty person. Same with Baltar. Not every bad person needs to be a Cylon, and if they move that way, it will get boring. The Cylons have every reason to bring Gaius into their fold if he were ever found out, as he can partake of their breeding program. His brains and seemingly good health would almost certainly make him a good candidate.
Feb. 17, 2006, 12:16 p.m. CST
... the difference between Cylons and humans is increasingly In Name Only. The Colonials label all the Cylons "machines" the same way we label our enemies as "terrorists" or "barbarians" -- so we don't have to empathize with them or engage with their politics and history and agenda in any substantive way. Cylons = machines so it's OK to destroy / torture / rape them. This is the idea the show is really exploring -- not as "pretentious post 9/11-paranoia dreck," ManOfStool, but as a reflection of the dark turn our species has taken. Any of those Abu Ghraib photos could have been taken aboard the Pegasus.
Feb. 17, 2006, 12:24 p.m. CST
But letting them keep it for at least a few episodes was absolutely the shiz-nappy
Feb. 17, 2006, 12:25 p.m. CST
Their use of flesh and blood, DNA, ovaries, etc. means that to them, *we're* the technology -- a Cylon wearing a human body just inverts the concept of a human wearing metal armor. But on a practical level, I've wondered about the CT/MRI scan issue as well. In "Flight of the Phoenix" Sharon plugged a data line into her wrist, for gods' sake. You're telling me the don't have the medical technology to spot a data port built into someone's arm?
Feb. 17, 2006, 12:33 p.m. CST
In human form, the Cylons chose to create 1 human-cylon for each colony. Which means there is a 13th on the way. The ships, old models, were considered in that definition. TRUST ME
Feb. 17, 2006, 12:36 p.m. CST
You actually made me laugh. I DID act like a piece of stool because I happen to like the show. Just wanted to see what happens if I say something nasty in this TB. Concerning the typo: I`m German, so gimme a break. I love Galactica, it`s fracktastic!
Feb. 17, 2006, 12:42 p.m. CST
Kudos to you, too! I think you get what BSG is all about. Sorry about my scam, peeps. The best shows are from Yanksville, and I thank BitTorrent for my weekly catch-up on LOST, BSG, VERONICA MARS and 24. I hate waiting for the crappy dubbed German versions.
Feb. 17, 2006, 1:04 p.m. CST
I do not think tonight is the last we will see of the Pegasus. If I have read the synopsis correctly, Major Adama is the XO of the Pegasus now, and he would be on board when the Pegasus jumps away. I predict Lee will try to assume control, but the crew is still loyal to their own, and Lee will find himself in a brig. One way or the other, Lee Adama eventually will become the new CO on the Pegasus. Battlestar Pegasus might be slated for destruction at the end of the season finale. Those peacenik Cylon sympathizers have a nuke now, and what better way to force a peace deal than to destroy the fleet's most powerful warship?
Feb. 17, 2006, 1:33 p.m. CST
Organic is a bit of a meaningless term when discussing technology. Plastics are organic. Organic does not have to mean "living" or natural. The humanoid Cylons clearly are not birthed, and thus they must be manufactured. That they can manufacture humans so precisely is most likely a reflection of their ability to manipulate matter at the molecular level. If one has enough knowlege and precise enough instruments, one could assemble a cell out of atoms that would be indistinguishable from a "natural" cell (which is itself an organized arrangement of non-living molecules). Obviously there are differences between real humans and cylon humans, as witnessed by their strength and stamina, and their ability to download their memories/consciousness. However the models must be good enough to duplicate all obvious scientific tests - meaning good replication of cells, tissues, antigens, DNA, etc.
Feb. 17, 2006, 3:20 p.m. CST
Does anyone care about an SG-1 or ATlantis talkback?
Feb. 17, 2006, 3:30 p.m. CST
Feb. 17, 2006, 3:32 p.m. CST
Me likey BSG and LOST big time, but unlike those shows, the new DOCTOR WHO series actually gets BETTER as it goes along (after "Aliens of London" anyway). Go and catch an early screening of V FOR VENDETTA on March 17th, then wind the evening down with the moderately okay premiere of DOCTOR WHO, "Rose," on SciFi. You'll be glad you did.
Feb. 17, 2006, 3:33 p.m. CST
My roommate and I are having a little arguement. He swears that there are only seven models of Cylons. Can anyone tell me when it is exactly mentioned how many models there are?
Feb. 17, 2006, 3:35 p.m. CST
Feb. 17, 2006, 3:36 p.m. CST
Feb. 17, 2006, 3:36 p.m. CST
Feb. 17, 2006, 4:22 p.m. CST
And Baltar left the note for Adama.
Feb. 17, 2006, 4:25 p.m. CST
This has always bothered me. Tactically, it seems like a bad idea to have only twelve potential infiltrators. The moment one is identified, all the others of that model become worthless. I could see them starting out with only twelve models, but wouldn't they have a lot more by now? Or couldn't they surgicially alter existing models to make them look different? Also, was Sharon always a Cylon, or was she once a human who was copied (including her memories), killed and replaced with a Cylon duplicate? And when a Cylon 'dies' and is resurrected, are their memories downloaded into every copy of that model, or just one? It's been suggested that the current Sharon has the memories of the Sharon who was assassinated. I've been watching the show since the beginning, and this has never been satisfactorily explained for me.
Feb. 17, 2006, 4:42 p.m. CST
Simple. The bought the sets, from the unused 'John Woo's Lost in Space' pilot, and redressed them. They got them cheap (big bucks to make perm sets), but studio space in Vancouver is at a premium right now. The production company behind BSG has secured the space for the next season. They could tear down these very expensive sets; redress them (unlikely); or use the space for something new. I think BSP is here for a season longer.
Feb. 17, 2006, 5:06 p.m. CST
Are our ancestors. Follow: Any Galactica Character... Frak you! Frak Off! Mother Fraker! FRED FLINTSTONE - Prehistoric man (Cursing under his breath) Rakka FRAKKA, rakka FRAKKA etc. I rest my case
Feb. 17, 2006, 5:15 p.m. CST
and it wants to invade Grace Park. Repeatedly.
Feb. 17, 2006, 5:36 p.m. CST
"Scar", "Ephiphanies" and "Black Market" were more enjoyable after listening to the podcasts. If you don't like those episodes, rewatch them with the podcast, and you may get more of an appreciation for what they were trying to accomplish. I certainly did.
Feb. 17, 2006, 6:09 p.m. CST
Haven't read through the Talkback yet, but I figured I might as well mention something that kinda bugged me. I'm pretty sure the line from the mini was "there are 12 Cylon models" not 'there are 12 models of human cylons.' So in theory that would include the raider, the Centurion and the Base Star all as seperate models of cylon as well, as they are living beings that get ressurected (although that's hardly proven for the latter two, it was mentioned a couple eps back for the raiders). By my reckoning that would put the tally to at least 7, unless it's clarified later on (of course it was already implied that it was the human models to which they were refering to, but wasn't it a cylon who mentioned the number? why would they make that distinction?) anyways, that was about all I have to say on that. now to read what the rest of the class wrote...
Feb. 17, 2006, 6:10 p.m. CST
The reasons for twelve models can be easily explained, in or out of the context of the show. I agree with r3sp3ctm3 that the 12 models represent the 12 colonies, and that number echoes throughout the series. It could well be that the Cylons view that as something sacred, and thus use that many models for religious reasons. More practically, if they have to build up each design molecule by molecule (since they can't make humans the easy way), then each creating each new design could be an exhaustive process, and any more would overtax their resources, especially if they have to have factories devoted to making endless back up copies of each. It's possible model #13 is still in the design phase.
Feb. 17, 2006, 6:20 p.m. CST
Halfway through the tb now, and it was shown when Sharon went inside the basestar with the nuke that it was blood and guts, a living being inside of the metallic exterior. Since the cylons didn't seem to mind that they were being nuked, I wouldn't be surprised if either a) the basestar was to be ressurected by having it's consciousness beamed to the ressuerection ship and then theoretically beamed to somewhere it could be implanted back into a base star. anyways, I can't see my previous post at the bottom of the tb, so I'm wondering what's up with that. ah well, posting away
Feb. 17, 2006, 7:45 p.m. CST
How long will we be forced to endure episode after episode of humans yelling and shooting at each other? I thought this show was supposed to be about a war between mankind and machines? Can we please get back to it?
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:10 p.m. CST
Yeah, or if they're not shooting, there's a scene with four different people all pointing guns at each other, camera cutting back and forth, that army marching drum beating, until someone gives in and points the gun to the sky. But I do love the frackin show...
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:17 p.m. CST
by Mutant Leader
(MAJOR SPOILER RE:LUCY LAWLESS) According to one published article (I believe in Newsweek) Lucy is gonna be. . .how can I put this. . .sitting on a tall shadowy dais. . .wearing a surprisingly cool afro-sheen cut. . .and a velvet robe. . . if you see what I mean. . . By your command! :)
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:42 p.m. CST
it's about the stories going on during that war. If all we saw week after week was raiders and vipers and shooting and explosions the show will just get boring. To keep a show intersting they have to develop charcters and allow those characters to do the things that motivate them, be it, obtain power, maintain order, stay alive or get someone's approval. The drama heightens the show baby, lifts it above the "monster/attack of the week". Take another look at the whole story from another angle, you may see what we're talking about and fall in love with it all over again. Thats one of the things that made Baby5 so freaking awesome. Who wasn't moved when Sheridan called his Dad and told him that he may not be seeing him for a long time, but he's got something to do and he knows he's right or when he had to leave D'len (sp) in the middle of the night so that he could die alone and create a mythology for those who come after them. Who knows how BSG will end, but the yelling and shooting and the crying and the deceptions and everything else will mean something - so when this show ends - we will feel something. But if my rambling hasn't convinced you, try out SG1, they have all the shooting and explosions that you can get.
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:49 p.m. CST
Maybe you missed it, but in the pilot it was clearly stated by Rosalin: The war is over. We lost. This is about a small group of humans trying to survive, which means not just surviving external threats, but also the innate conflicts that arise any time a group of people are forced together.
Feb. 17, 2006, 8:52 p.m. CST
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:36 p.m. CST
by Red Giant
They die as much as the security extras from original Star Trek.
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:58 p.m. CST
10 Criswell points for thatdudewalter
Feb. 17, 2006, 9:59 p.m. CST
Even the abortion thing kinda worked...kinda. Slow clap on the other hand--totally worked.
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:01 p.m. CST
She looks real familiar but I can't place her...
Feb. 17, 2006, 10:12 p.m. CST
by Voice O. Reason
No reason they couldn't put him in charge of the Pegasus with Admiral Adama watching over him. Lee's promotion, despite the fact he did get Pegasus out of a huge mess, seems a little forced. Does the guy know anything about ship operations not involving flight/combat ops? Aren't there other line officers on board Galactica that'd make good COs? Sure Adama and Tigh used to be pilots too, but they also had years of training in ship operations.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:03 p.m. CST
Interestingly the show really wasn't focused on the issue of abortion rights. It neatly sidestepped the question, though I think it clear the writer(s) are on the pro-choice side. Debating abortion in the context of Galactica is a bit irrelevent to modern politics, as the human race is very much NOT on the verge of extinction (which I think would force even the most die-hard abortion proponent would to at least reexamine the issue). Rather this episode uses abortion to spin into the much larger argument, which is that of liberty vs security in a time of war. As always, no easy answer is present because no easy answer exists. Well played.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:06 p.m. CST
take over Pegasus.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:07 p.m. CST
If BSG were up for Emmys in the real world, that is...
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:10 p.m. CST
My problem with making Lee Commander is not one of qualifications. If Trammel was the best choice before, what was left can't be much good. Have to figure that Pegasus, being in mid-refit,was also lightly staffed prior to the colonial holocaust. I'm under the impression that a good portion of its crew seem to be civilians pressed into duty. What's left is questionable in terms of their loyalty, as we have just seen. I think Cain was right, if for the wrong reasons - crew integration is vital at this point. The Pegasus crew sees itself as separate (and superior) to the rest of the fleet. A reshuffle of the deck will be needed to correct that attitude. My concern with Commander Adama is political. Its a bit of the George W. problem. Surely some people will see Admiral Adama's appointment of his own son as a power grab, perhaps as a prelude to taking over completely (similar claims were made during John Adams administration). I'm not sure what the alternative is, though. Starbuck lacks the temperment for command, and Tigh would be an even bigger political problem.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:37 p.m. CST
True, but how long are they going to tell stories from the "can't we all just get along" angle? Seriously, it's been two seasons already and that theme is getting really, really old. Tonights episode was better than most of Season 2 thus far, but a handful of good episodes cannot save a terrible season. The writers are in a rut. What is worse is they continue to modify scripts from other SciFi shows (Star Trek, Space:Above and Beyond, etc) into "new" Battlestar episodes.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:38 p.m. CST
....on the "flashback" episodes. LOL.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:41 p.m. CST
I was just rereading older posts and decided to address some of them that were discussing this topic. Personally, I think Ron Moore dropped the proverbial ball when he made the call that Centurions/Raiders were NOT sentient beings. This could have opened the door to some very interesting storylines and characters. I waited a season and a half for a centurion "main character" to appear, only to have Moore stab me in the back. Moore has creatively castrated himself.
Feb. 17, 2006, 11:54 p.m. CST
I read somewhere they reflect (mock?) the 12 gods that the humans worship. I can't remember who is who (I think 6 is Aphrodite, etc.), but that might indicate who else may be a cylon.
Feb. 18, 2006, 12:21 a.m. CST
Sorry... I just have this image of Ronald D. Moore coming up behind you in a dark alley. "You know what happens to nosy people, kitty cat?"
Feb. 18, 2006, 1:06 a.m. CST
So far, all the female Cylons have been hot women. Plus, she wasn't able to commit to Billy because she didn't have any feelings for him, and would be unable to conceive a Cylon\human hybrid baby. That's the reason she was so upset when she thought Apollo might die, because she knew he was the one for her. And did anyone hear me yell when that stupid flash-flood warning appeared right in the middle of that tense scene as Apollo and his commander were wrestling for control of the ship? Fortunately, it ended right before a marathon block of commercial breaks.
Feb. 18, 2006, 1:24 a.m. CST
...you guys know that this board is important to the Battlestar writers and producers right? As an example you can't imagine the meeting Whedon had with the finance guys who put up the money for Serenity and him not showing sheets of printed forum boards, just like this one, showing support for Firefly? Sure, DVD sales was part of it, but so was fan support. If you don't like Battlestar, don't watch it and stop with the shitty feedback. If you do like it, and want the show to continue,( remember, most good sci-fi needs a third, fourth and sometimes fifth season before it hits a good stride)then quit posting unconstructive feedback.No more, "it's not as good as season number 1, episode 13 when Adama told Starbuck..." and help it have a chance to grow. Everything you dumb-asses bitched about during season one, the writers and producers have heard and done, but now it's not good enough. These characters and the actors who bring them to the screen have a palpable life now and we as fans need to help them grow into the show we want. I don't want this show to be canceled and have nothing but three seasons of good sci-fi cut short because of lack of fan support. Farscape, TNG and Babylon both got really good after three seasons and Firefly would have too. Long live BSG!
Feb. 18, 2006, 1:24 a.m. CST
At the beginning of season 2.He did ok with the military strategy aspect, but frakked up the everyday stuff. I mean he declared martial law and essentially got a bunch of civilians killed. Besides, i think even if he was offered Pegasus he'd turn it down. he said as much after Adama came back that he was better as an XO.
Feb. 18, 2006, 2:36 a.m. CST
Feb. 18, 2006, 2:37 a.m. CST
Feb. 18, 2006, 3:03 a.m. CST
Feb. 18, 2006, 3:09 a.m. CST
Six was brutally tortured to the point of death! Abu Graihb my fracking ass. Stupid ass liberals.
Feb. 18, 2006, 3:27 a.m. CST
Then it may be time to stop watching BSG.
Feb. 18, 2006, 3:38 a.m. CST
Is it just me, or have they been putting scenes in the "Previously on Battlestar Galactca" that actually didn't air? I'll be honest, I havent been watching as closely as I did during the first half of the season, but I dont think that the scene where Adama names the new commander was ever aired. Same with the scene that showed before Scar with Starbuck urging them to go back to the Colonies to rescue the resistance. Am I crazy? Becaause it seems like a pretty big deal to me, and honestly its just stupid to cut scenes that will set up future episodes, and then slide them in right before that episode airs. Also, being a pro-lifer myself, that abortion storyline was so mishandled it was ridiculous. As far as we know, Doc Coddle is the only doctor in the entire fleet, and the abortion issue would be moot if Adama just laid down the law. And as far as a political issue, I dont think most people in the fleet would be pissed to lose their abortion rights, considering they are the last of their species. Self-preservation is after all an inate human instinct. But really, you can ignore all of this post except for the part referenced in the title of the post. At this point I'm just rambling
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:06 a.m. CST
So with Apallo becoming commander of Pegasus, it makes me like the last few episodes more. The last few have been Appollo centric and yet seemingly pointless: floating in space wishing he was dead, the black market, getting shot by Starbuck... But now I see that it was planed by the writers to build up Apollo and complicate his character before becoming comander of the Pegasus. So the episodes and scenes that seemed pointless have actually been leading up to this. I still don't think they were the best of episodes, but at least now I see why they did them.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:09 a.m. CST
I haven't read the talkback responses to the episode yet, because I've yet to torrent it. But I have to ask you a question that's been plaguing me. Weeks ago, in the talkback for "Epiphanies," you proudly proclaimed that you would no longer be watching BSG, that "Epiphanies" was the "Spock's Brain" of Galactica. Yet in every BSG talkback since then, you've showed up. Have you ever explained why you reversed your position and are still watching the show and participating in the collective conversation? Some may call me obsessive for not letting this go, but you've become my great white whale; I am honestly curious to understand how you could dismiss the show so completely, severing your ties with it, then sneak back in, and still expect your opinions to have any credibility whatsoever.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:16 a.m. CST
"How dare you compare Pegasus to Abu Ghraib! Shut the FRACK up!" You sound like Dick Cheney in disguise: someone presents an opinion you disagree with and rather than respond with reasoned dialogue, you tell them to shut up. Too bad you can't just slap a hood on me or water-board me; that would sure teach me to express complex ideas with which you disagree. BTW, it's spelled "Ghraib" -- so I guess you're more likely George W. than "Shotgun Dick." (Though the latter nickname suits you.) Stupid ass conservative.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:24 a.m. CST
The commander of the Pegasus is the new Spinal Tap drummer. Good luck buddy!
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:27 a.m. CST
by Anakin Whoopass
Roslin didn't go that far, then again she didn't decide to start a mandatory breeding program either. What I liked is Baltar starting to get his act together. He completely played Roslin, using (made up?) scientific evidence to push her to take a stand she herself opposed, then used her decision as the pretext for publicly opposing her. Also I'm glad to see Roslin seems to have an executive office staff again. Through last week it seemed like she'd fired everyone but Billy.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:28 a.m. CST
...I hope (I pray!) the big-shots & money-marks have learned to ignore most of what goes down on these (and all other) boards. 80 - 90% of these TalkBackers (that is, ALL of the chronic complainers) are just pitiful fanboys, upset that the show's direction, storylines & character development don't line up with their fan fiction. "Fan service", or any attempt to cater to these geeks, is to court creative death. They're like religious fanatics... giving them what they whine for only inspires them to produce a bigger, more impossible-to-fulfill list of demands. Producers of genre-type entertainment need look no further than the impending demise of the once super-successful "Spider-Man" & "X-Men" movie franchises. Both are bending over backwards to satisfy the Message Board Morons (pointless deaths & excessive numbers of fan-favorite characters being shoe-horned into "X3", Venom in "Spider-Man 3") and both are going to get the same reaction from the 99.999% of the public that aren't pathetic fanboy feebs... "Ugh, well, THAT certainly sucked". Ron Moore & the rest of the BSG crew, you guys just keep doing what you're doing. If the big-shots & money-marks mention "message board reactions", feel free to print out this rant & give it to 'em.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:57 a.m. CST
Petty Officer Anastasia Dualla is hands-down, indisputably, the hottest woman in the history of sci-fi T.V. (if not the history of the Human race). As a kid I had a crush on Corporal Rigel (the 70s BSG character she's loosely based on) but, c'mon, this is off the charts. Kudos to the casting department.
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:10 a.m. CST
"So the episodes and scenes that seemed pointless have actually been leading up to this. I still don't think they were the best of episodes, but at least now I see why they did them." I agree -- and, as with Lost, more evidence that the proper perspective on the weekly up-and-down quality of the episodes is to consider them from the viewpoint of eventual DVD box set watchers: when strung together, the different modes and tones and foci will resolve into the pattern the writers always intended. (Of course, certain episodes will always rock -- or suck -- more than others. I myself have never been able to get through all of "Black Market" -- the show was that meh. Still, I give Moore and his crew the benefit of the doubt.)
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:17 a.m. CST
Actually, they must've changed his character's last name at the last moment.
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:24 a.m. CST
You haters have to shut the fuck up.
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:32 a.m. CST
Commander Adama! How freaking cool is that! "You have a brain?" Love it!
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:59 a.m. CST
by Voice O. Reason
That was to be in charge of the whole fleet, not just one ship.
Feb. 18, 2006, 10:21 a.m. CST
All the flamebait in the Galactica talkbacks starts with praise for the damn show. Who can tell when it's really time to make war? Not me. May we 80-90% never change. We talkbackers can be as idiotic as we like; "They" know just what to make of us. Even we know what to make of ourselves! And we like it! And you love it, thou man of wood! PS, I demand a 7 hour movie version of the Secret Wars with two intermissions.
Feb. 18, 2006, 10:36 a.m. CST
We know they are still around "and have there uses" according to six in the pilot, I wanna see the inspiration for KITT in knight rider at least once!
Feb. 18, 2006, 10:57 a.m. CST
It may not be Pegasys, simply because that is what we would expect from the original Living Legend storyline. Admiral Adama could eventually wind up being the "dying leader", and the Galactica could be destroyed at some point in the future. The remaining Pegasys could be renamed Galactica in his honor, with who else - Commander (Lee) Adama in charge, thus preserving the reason to call the show - Battlestar Galactica.
Feb. 18, 2006, 11:31 a.m. CST
The simple reason (which the show's writers seem to have realized) is that there are many more interesting stories to tell WITH Pegasus part of the fleet than with it blown up and gone. The show's premise becomes slightly more flexible with a second Battlestar (Example: Pegasus covering the fleet in the Scar ep) Plus, the possibility of a spinoff show, which I've mentioned before.
Feb. 18, 2006, 11:59 a.m. CST
~Sex scene Apollo/Dualla ~Liberty vs security ~The right to abortion ~Baltar vs Rosalin ~Apollo & Starbuck What more could you ask for? If you didn't like the epi, stop watching!
Feb. 18, 2006, 12:08 p.m. CST
Didn't think so. How about addressing the ISSUES? Call me a dickhead all you want, but if you can't address the issues, you're the real fuckwad.
Feb. 18, 2006, 12:55 p.m. CST
Did they actually say the centurions aren't sentient, b/c I don't remember that in the show. I recall them describing the raiders as more animalistic. In any case, sentience is on a continuum. There are gradations of it, including self-awareness and self-preservation. There isn't some magical point where you can say Creature A is sentient but Creature B is not. You can say Creature A is *more* sentient than Creature B, on the other hand. The definition of sentience: "Having sense perception; conscious. Experiencing sensation or feeling." All these things certainly apply to the raiders and the centurions.
Feb. 18, 2006, 1:19 p.m. CST
Ron Moore said the Centurians are not sentient on his blog, which makes a little sense to me. Why build sentient robots whose sole function is to be sent off into battle? If I had to guess, I'd say there are probably more machine like sentients in the Cylon community, beings akin to the original series' Lucifer, that were the leaders of the Cylons before the humanoids.
Feb. 18, 2006, 1:54 p.m. CST
You have a point. Nevertheless, he's just as bad a "people person" as John Heard's character if not even less so. No one really respects Tigh that much, what with the alcohol and the nympho wife.
Feb. 18, 2006, 1:57 p.m. CST
Tossing "ad hom" and "fuckwad" around in the same response ... my head spins at the precision with which you think. OK, I'll accept your invitation to address the ISSUES, though technically you haven't raised any ISSUES beyond (and I quote): "Six was brutally tortured to the point of death! Abu Graihb my fracking ass. Stupid ass liberals." I take it you find the application of Abu Ghraib to the Six situation inappropriate, then? And yet, looky here, abuses of prisoner rights (and bodies) to the point of death have been well documented at Abu Ghraib AND Guantanamo Bay; witness the recent spate of photographs showing (count with me here, if you're not using your other fingers to pick your nose and/or ass): sodomy, beating, and -- yep -- dead bodies. So any comebacks from you, beyond another charming witticism like "fuckhead"?
Feb. 18, 2006, 2:03 p.m. CST
Isn't kind of strange that the Galactica's bridge is huge, and the bridge of the Pegasus is smaller than its captain's quarters? I understand budge retraints for new sets...but for a ship that's supposed to be bigger, better, and bader than the Galactica, I would the Pegasus would have a big command center.
Feb. 18, 2006, 2:33 p.m. CST
Think about it, the Pegasus is advanced to the point where you don't need 25 people sitting and staring at their consoles perfroming seemingly small tasks. Everything is computerized, reducing the need for more people. At least thats how I look at it
Feb. 18, 2006, 2:58 p.m. CST
Maybe if you actually READ my post, I said that all you did was use ad hominems. Here's what I said: "Call me a dickhead all you want, but if you can't address the issues, you're the real fuckwad." So, you can use ad homs at me, without a prob, but for christ's sake, address the goddamn issues. Now, getting to your points you findally responded with: well documented? By who, AlfrackenQueda? Burden of proof is on your ass. And please, take your propaganda-filled websites to O'Sama. Post legitimate sites, if you even have any.
Feb. 18, 2006, 3:14 p.m. CST
... so I'm done helping dumb animals today, aceattorney. If you're *really* claiming that the Abu Ghraib abuses are undocumented, then I can only point at, well, the whole of the current news landscape and shake my head, sadly. Two parting questions, though: where exactly did you get your law degree? And where did you get the idea that Osama was an Irishman?
Feb. 18, 2006, 4:52 p.m. CST
So now the fleet is a family dynasty, Baltar is propped up as a puppet presidential candidate for a radical opportunist, abortion is illegal, rescue pilots have bad radios that fail only when they are really needed
Feb. 18, 2006, 5:05 p.m. CST
Do you remember when the only things we used to talk about after watching sci fi tv was how bad the effects were, the incredible cornball of the Star Trek universe (Doesn't anyone play fucking guitar or baseketball in space? Clarinet and water polo MY ASS!)or the general morality bullshit that always felt like a "The More You Know" spot than gripping entertainment. Thank you. Thank you to everyone involved in the creation of this show. Anything that makes fanboys talk about the real world outside of their windowless rooms is fine by me.
Feb. 18, 2006, 5:23 p.m. CST
Abu Ghraib, in the grand scheme of things, was pretty minor. Most of the abuses that have been documented, at least in the pictures and video, occured in one night. Lyndie England, who became famous for holding the Iraqi prisoner on the leash, didn't even work as a guard. The only reason she was there that night was because she was partying with her boyfriend who was a guard. Which is why its basically been concluded that the real reason for the abuses was the fact that the commanding officer had no control over the troops in her command. Not to say that what happened was excusable, and it hasn't been (all those involved have been punished or are in the process of being punished), but its not as big as blowing up a market with a truck bomb or trying to use mentally retarded individuals as bomb delivery systems (which the "insurgents" tried to do during one of the elections). The problem is, some on the Right try to excuse what these few individuals did, and people on the Left try to discredit the entire military with those actions. There were some idiots at Abu Ghraib, but I don't believe it really says anything about our military other than there are some idiots in it, and honestly you will find idiots in any large organization.
Feb. 18, 2006, 5:26 p.m. CST
I know it has been said that there are 12 models, and that the 12 models represent the 12 colonies. Since Earth represents the 13th colony, perhaps Helo and Boomer's offspring will represent the 13th model? Yes? No? Honoris Causa... Silverblade
Feb. 18, 2006, 5:51 p.m. CST
Exactly what I thought. Aside from fraternity prank-level abuses, there was NOTHING done that compares to the level of what happened to Six on the Peg. Thanks for demonstrating the total lack of substance in your pathetic argument. GOOD BYE! And by the way, I CONDEMN what the US did to those prisoners, even if they weren't as bad as zencat claims.
Feb. 18, 2006, 6 p.m. CST
by Sicuv Uyall
when are they gonna bring back those 2 singing robots from the original series.
Feb. 18, 2006, 7:27 p.m. CST
I really enjoyed that ep. After the low point of the Epiphanies / Black Market "era" the show seems to be climbing again. Scar was OK, and this ep was solid, almost great. I had a couple of nitpicks - I thought John Herd's death was a little cliched, and I thought it was a cop-out to have Roslin ban abortion but have it happen "five minutes after" the girl from Geminon got HER abortion [narratively it seems like letting the show have it both ways]. But we got loads of awesome effects shots in a decent battle sequence; we got Jamie Bamber actually being a decent actor for a change in the scene where he "gets the conn"; we finally got confirmation that battlestars have, you know, engine rooms; we got more extras than you could shake a stick at [did we meet the entire Pegasus crew or what?]; we got Baltar being Baltar; we got politics; and we got the demographics of Armageddon [including a great scene featuring the Best Supporting Whiteboard]. I'm really relieved that they managed to put a top-level ep together again.
Feb. 18, 2006, 7:36 p.m. CST
by Gheorghe Zamfir
Have you even been reading the news? BSG aside, comparing Abu Ghraib with fraternity pranks demonstrates an extraordinary amount of willful ignorance. If you can't discuss something with some amount of an informed opinion just do yourself the favor of not discussing it at all.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:28 p.m. CST
There is a difference between a different world and no world at all. Besides which, my understanding of the statistics implies that there is not much difference between unplanned births before and after the legalization of abortion (at least in the US). If there is a difference in the birth rates, it can better be attributed to overall life style changes, and much more effective birth control. If BSG was trying to make an issue of abortion, by which I mean it's morality and legality, I think there would have been a greater focus on the debate between Rosalin and the Geminons. Rather the episode frames the issue from Rosalin's point of view - not whether abortion is right or wrong, but whether a woman's right to an abortion should be sacrificed for the security of the human race.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:31 p.m. CST
Had to be made smaller so they had room for Cain's jaccuzi.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:38 p.m. CST
those who gave the orders got off scott free, the spooks, Bush's lap dog and Bush. It'll all come out... Just like how Regan was a terriorst supporter (the contras and arms for hostages) Bush the Torturer will be exposed for the rest of the "jesus freak" idiots in middle america. The emipre is falling people. And by the way, what an awesome epsiode.
Feb. 18, 2006, 8:58 p.m. CST
"It'll all come out." If it does, assuming it hasn't, then those people will be punished too. Unless there is specific evidence that these people you talk about gave the orders that you believe were made, your agitations will yield nothing.
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:10 p.m. CST
by Sgt. Black
I believe they ARE in fact adding cut scenes to the "Previously on..." segment.
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:12 p.m. CST
by Foster Zygote
I'm a "white" man with a son who is half Puerto Rican. Are you suggesting that this makes him less American than someone of European descent? Just who is American? How do you define this status? Just curious. Also, my son's uncle, Sgt. Martinez (who grew up in the midwest) has done a tour of Afghanistan and two tours of Iraq as a combat infantry soldier doing highly dangerous squad level counter insurgency work with a Barrett M82A. About half of his original platoon are dead now. Does his sevice earn him any status as more of an American than other hispanics? Perhaps even equal status with "white" Americans?
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:15 p.m. CST
Good ep. Not just for that.
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:17 p.m. CST
Keep on preaching. I understand the fear of a loss of culture, as we may be seeing in Europe, but a culture need not die because of a change in skin tone. If there's one thing America has done better than Europe, it's incorporating elements of the new culture with the old.
Feb. 18, 2006, 9:52 p.m. CST
by Foster Zygote
It seems, as I had hoped, that GreatOne2's post was simply worded in a way that could be interpreted in a maner that he didn't intend it to be. But as to the population issue: Large population is not always an advantage. Very often it is a liability. Explosive positive population growth can lead to overpopulation, poverty, starvation. Zero population growth in a population of sufficient enough numbers to maintain genetic diversity and prosperity can be a great advantage. I don't think that the abortion issue in this epsode was meant to be a literal allegory to todays abortion issues but was rather engaging the question of what would a free society with the right to choose abortion do in the event that there were only about 50,000 people left in the known univers.
Feb. 18, 2006, 10:32 p.m. CST
by Foster Zygote
Posted that last one before I got to read your follow-up post. Perhaps you didn't mean to insinuate racist ideas regarding the presence of Latin culture in the United States, but you are obviously easily upset. I made no ad hominem attack against you, engaged in no name calling, didn't make assumtions about your politics or make lame attempts to sound clever by citing the name of a well known figure in popular culture whom I have a passing, two dimentional understanding of. All I did was, at worst, ask a slightly pointed question asking you to clarify your meaning. The irony is that your suggestion that I read a book is unnecessary as my primary fields of study are human history and anthropology. I would wager that I know a great deal more about demographic plasticity and human migration than you do. Ultimatly, if you want to be taken seriously when discussing matters of science you need to learn some debate skills and refrain from childish outbursts that do nothing to serve your position. Name calling and insult are the last resort of someone with little else to say. I'll assume as well that you still had no underlying racist bias intended in your comments in which case it was only necessary to inform me, like an intelligent adult, that I was in error and had misread you. This would actually have given you a bit of the moral high ground and you would have estableshed yourself as a reasonable person worthy of an apology. I must say though that from a sociological and psychological position this sort of exchange is, none the less, fascinating to me.
Feb. 18, 2006, 11:03 p.m. CST
by Foster Zygote
MrD is right about the abortion statistics. Reliable data have shown that legal abortion in the Industrialized world has, at best, a negligible effect of birth rates and that lifestyle has a much greater impact. My paternal grandmother had eleven kids, for example. This wasn't because abortion wasn't available to her. My parents had two offspring and I'm quite sure that my mother never had an abortion. Not to imply that this collected data has reached the status of theory but it has not been shown to be unreliable at this point.
Feb. 18, 2006, 11:16 p.m. CST
by Col. Klink
"I made a vow back in December of 2003 when I first saw the Battlestar Galactica miniseries and learned it was going to be a regular series on SciFi. That promise was this: If Ron Moore pulls some fucking 'StarTrek-like miracle cure out of his ass' for Rosylin, I'm done with the show. One thing I admired from the beginning was the introduction of a character who was dying. It was great that they were commited to killing off a major character within "a few months" show-time. Well, looks like Moore had his balls cut off because he chickened out on that one. lol. This is my stop...the fleet will sail the rest of the way without me." Talk about a backpedal!
Feb. 19, 2006, 12:25 a.m. CST
Just thought that bore repeating.
Feb. 19, 2006, 12:40 a.m. CST
What would they do, rename the show Pegasus?? Never gonna happen. If you can guarantee one thing it's the survival of the Galactica right to the end of season 5, or however long it runs. Twas a good episode this week. We've now got setup for a huge season 2 finale, after a few weeks of 'character' eps. I think Starbuck's gonna do something totally frakked up in the finale as she's unstable, spiralling out of control.
Feb. 19, 2006, 12:40 a.m. CST
Baltar died in the nuclear exchange but his consciousness was downloaded into a new body along with Six as a "guide/companion/propagandist". I think this how the Cylons create new "human" toasters. The trick is that they have to get a human to want to become Cylons. The process has to be voluntary. It's always been interesting to see how Six has manipulated Baltar in to having him see himself as removed from humanity and humanities superior. Six has also commented to Baltar that he is starting to see humanity the way the Cylons do. The final push for Baltar, or anyone, to join is the offer of immortality. Your body might die but your consciousness will live on for ever. Unfortunately for the Cylons acquiring a soul is not that easy. In that promise of immortality lies a problem that the Cylons have encountered, a soul is unique and therefore when copied it no longer is a soul. Hence the desire for children.
Feb. 19, 2006, 12:43 a.m. CST
By every definition I'm aware of, Puerto Ricans (along with anyone else of European descent) are part of "Western Civilization". To use some huge generalizations, non-western civs would include anyone from almost all of Asia, the Middle East (excluding Hebrews), India, Native N and S American tribes (non-assimilated), Africans, etc. You don't need to speak English to be a part of western civ. Generally speaking it translates to Greco/Roman and Judeo-Christian origins. ***** And BTW I felt that the way they handled the whole abortion thing was cliched and ham-fisted (of course the heavily religeous Geminan would refer to the pregnant girl as her parent's "property"; gimmee a frakin break!) but it could have been worse. I expected something much more subtle and even handed from such a generally well written show. Very disappointing. Although Baltar's manipulation of the issue was very cool. Still, it's ironic that the Pres who supposedly has spent her "whole career fighting for a woman's right to choose" was ready to force an abortion on Sharon a couple weeks ago. (Anybody else waiting to see what side-effects having part-cylon cells injected into her body will have?) Altogether, I realised there are very few characters left I can still sympathise with. I guess it's pretty much just Helo.
Feb. 19, 2006, 12:55 a.m. CST
you probably already knew that.
Feb. 19, 2006, 2:20 a.m. CST
Why didn't anyone check Starbuck's videotape from when she flew through the Resurrection Ship? The transmission showed Cylons in stasis inside the ship, so just checking the tape would have shown the remaining models. I would think finding the Cylon "sleepers" in the fleet would be a higher priority.
Feb. 19, 2006, 2:35 a.m. CST
That would be a definite twist...an alliance with an alien race against the Cylons...until the aliens find out that the humans CREATED the cylons!
Feb. 19, 2006, 3:14 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
One of these days we'll see the Earth plot finally move forward, once that happens I have a huge wish I hope RM is considering. We need to see a lost colony of original series Centurions stuck on some remote planet somewhere, a remnant from the first war who couldn't FTL back to Cylon space but are still patrolling the sector they had been assigned to. Have an old style Basestar crashed on the planet with old style Raiders being piloted by 3 old style Centurions, and so on. Throw in a gold Centurion just for giggles, now that would be a bad ass episode.
Feb. 19, 2006, 5:01 a.m. CST
is the early season 2 ep "The Farm" in which we discover the Cylons are forcing human women to have babies against their will. Although I initially thought "The Farm" was a tad bizarro and hopefully just a fluke, it turns out to be the touchstone for this week. Lo and behold, back at the ranch the President has made a clearly analogous decision. Human women will be forced to bear children even if they have reached the very sensible conclusion it is not a good idea. I'm sure the #1 priority for any reasonable person would be to have a baby in the middle of a ragtag fleet continually under attack by ruthless machines where you have to trade jewelry for fresh fruit and hit the black market to obtain basic medicines. Maybe if the President actually got the fleet to Earth there would be more incentive to procreate the race. Regardless of where you stand on the abortion issue in the real world, think of the logistics. For humanity to survive you need access to raw materials and organics in huge quantities. You need a planet. Until then, you're just adding to population pressures that are probably a nightmare already. But then, I guess that's logic talking. Roslin is motivated by the single-minded conviction that the human race must survive, and messianic tunnel vision in a leader can take you to dangerous places... This message has been paid for by G. Baltar for President. "I betrayed the human race. Put me in charge!"
Feb. 19, 2006, 5:04 a.m. CST
Russman, I doubt you're going to read this, but I'll say it anyway. There were no orders given regarding what happened at Abu Ghraib. As I said, most if not all of the documented abuses occured during one night when the lower ranking soldiers were, for all intents and purposes, partying on the cell block. The commanding officer lost her command, and I believe she was also demoted (but I'm not 100% sure on that). The "spooks" were not behind any of it. Even the CO wasn't involved; she simply didn't have control of her unit. As far as "Bush the Torturer" goes, it all depends on how you define torture. We don't chop their heads off like their side does to the prisoners they take, so I'd say we're in pretty good shape. Also, although I am not a very religious person, I find it sad that you write off as idiots people who believe in God and let that belief guide their lives. It seems that those with your feelings are really the ones that exhibit the closed-mindedness so often attributed to Christians. Finally, if you want to call Reagan a terrorist, then I guess we should call clinton a terrorist for selling missile technology to China's oppressive regime, or even FDR and Truman could be considered terrorists for dealing with the USSR, who killed more people than Hitler. I dont expect reasoned conversation in a Talkback, but it would be nice if posts were heavier on facts and arguments instead of conspiracy theories and insults.
Feb. 19, 2006, 5:39 a.m. CST
...but I've got nothing to bitch about this week: Great episode! Hard-hitting, emotional and action-packed. Keep it up! And I loved 6 applauding Gaius at the end: Bravo, indeed. (All Gaius needs now though is a mustache to twirl while he says "Bwa-ha-ha-ha! maniacally.) As to the paying part, I don't have Sci-Fi, so I buy the eps each week from itunes. (which ROCKS in case you hadn't heard!) BTW, the eps Pegasus, Resurrection Ship 1 & 2, really play well back-to-back-to-back; it's like a BSG mini-movie...
Feb. 19, 2006, 8:13 a.m. CST
Pdid: first, I appreciate the points you make. But I must respond to the claim -- repeated more than once in this talkback -- that "most if not all of the documented abuses occured during one night when the lower ranking soldiers were, for all intents and purposes, partying on the cell block." Here's the quote from CID investigation report written by Special Agent James E. Seigmund: "A review of all the computer media submitted to this office revealed a total of 1,325 images of suspected detainee abuse, 93 video files of suspected detainee abuse, 660 images of adult pornography, 546 images of suspected dead Iraqi detainees, 29 images of soldiers in simulated sexual acts, 20 images of a soldier with a Swastika drawn between his eyes, 37 images of Military Working dogs being used in abuse of detainees and 125 images of questionable acts." Come on, now -- all of this occurred in *one night*? As the result of a few low-ranked officers partying? Must have been a busy night!
Feb. 19, 2006, 8:46 a.m. CST
This has happend in Afganistan, Iraq and at our Base in Cuba. These guys were given the nod to do "whatever it takes" to get information out of the priosners. And it goes straight to the top where the buck stops, your friend g.w. bush. And let us not forget the people who have died in captivity... or the secret prisons where we drop people off to be tortured. You know when Powell gave his speech to the UN about Iraq having WMDs, I knew he was lying and knew there was nothing there - and there wasn't. And I know when you get a bunch of 18-24 year old High School graduates and give them guns that there's gonna be some bad, bad things happening - and there has been. So I'm telling you this... torture or "making people uncomfortable" is a tried and true method for every government, we just lie about it better. Just because our country is the top dog right now, doesn't mean that we practice the high moral and ethical sermons that we preach. And as for the insurgents beheading people, we're not talking about them. As for the middle american idiots, yes I think they're idiots, it's their closed minds that are blinding them to the truth and their closed minds have helped put our country into an illegal and useless war that his killed tens of thousands of innoncent people, maimed thousands of our soliders and wiped out a couple of thousand of solider's lives. And their closed minds have helped change the balance of the supreme court that _may_ have crippling effects on the maturity and liberties for this country - and that AFFECTS ME! That's why I call them idiots. As for good 'ole ronny, he was a terrorist. He gave arms to the Contras, who would sneak in to Nicaragua (who after having a free democratic election voted in a goverment that we didn't like because they liked the C and the S words), kill cilivians and then run and hide across the border in a neighboring country. The Contras were terrorists, reagan gave them arms, he supported terrorists. China is a country, the Contras weren't. China's Gov't is bad too, as was the USSR and Saudi Arabia, and Iraq (that we armed and supported in the past too) as well as a number of other countries that are run by brutal dictators - but lets face it, we're capitalists... if selling some missle specs will let us sell our stuff to a market with over 1 billion people or lets our businesses set up shop and pay people $.50 cents an hour and lets those same companies polute their air and water, then that government is gonna have themselves some missles or some old tanks and some old guns or some surplus jets! Hell son! There's money to be made!! And now we come full circle; Morals, smorals - ethics - fethecks. We're talking about green backs. Justice and Liberty for all here in the US, screw the rest of the world, I mean come-on, they're not even real humans, right?? Is that the American Way Pdid? It's what we do, isn't it... sure, I can get DVDs cheap and glassware cheap and TVs cheap - yes the glory of living in the boosom of the empire. But is that the best we can do, Pdid? Don't you think that we can do better, that something should change? What makes us better than the Egyptians, the Greeks, Romans, Moors, French?, Dutch? and the British Empires (or economic conquers)? Bottled Water? MREs? Deodorant? Dental care? Look, I can understand what you're saying, but I'm sure that you've been lied to and in time, I think we'll find out that Abu Ghraib was just the tip of the mountain and that it wasn't just one night. And I loved the Pegasus episode because it shows that no matter how much "honor" a ship may have or how many "good men" may serve on a ship, pretty much most of them will follow the tone of the person in charge. Cain wanted to break that machine, and she let her men beat and "rape" it. Sure it looked like a woman, smelled like a woman, kicked, bled and screamed like a woman - but it was a machine... hey... just like "they're just Indians, they're just heathens, they're just Gauls, they're just rag heads, they're just natives, they're just Hawaiians - they have no souls." Dude, I'm not calling you any names but I just wanted to disagree with you and ask you to keep an eye on things. I also accept that you may disagree with me. So be it, enjoy the 3 day weekend, can't wait for next Friday's episode.
ComfortGirl, The answer was left on the cutting room floor of the ep "Pegasus." It's been reported that the Battlestar had its networked computers offline for overhaul when the Cylons attacked. It was able to blind jump away from the shipyards and save itself, and was able to figure out how the Cylons were taking the Colonials down from radio traffic. This scene, with Cain, is supposed to be included in the expanded version of the "Pegasus" episode in the Season 2.5 boxed set.
Feb. 19, 2006, 9:08 a.m. CST
by Glowing Spine
A Number 12 spanner and a hammer.
Feb. 19, 2006, 10:11 a.m. CST
Feb. 19, 2006, 10:57 a.m. CST
In rewatching the miniseries, it is also made clear that the Cylons used Baltar's program as a trojan horse, notjust to get through planetary systems, but also to shut down the vipers and Battlestars. Since the Pegasus was in the middle of a refit, I would assume the program was not yet installed, which would have protected the Pegasus from the sort of instant shut down commands used to devastate the rest of the fleet. This wouldn't have prevented the Cylons from hacking in and installing a more garden variety virus, but it is just as likely that Cain would have disconnected her network as soon as they realized they were under Cylon attack.
Feb. 19, 2006, 11:47 a.m. CST
Makes perfect sense.
Feb. 19, 2006, 12:46 p.m. CST
Anyway: I too am wondering about the "Previously on" ... I don't remember the Garner scene before this ep, and I don't remember when Roslin saw Baltar/Six. This was a better episode, and I'm excited about next week's. I'm also wondering if Six/Gina/Zarek are setting up Baltar somehow. I still don't buy the whole thing (how dare Roslin point out that he's selfish, just because he is?!?) ... but they're trying to make it interesting at least.
Feb. 19, 2006, 12:58 p.m. CST
by Col. Klink
...are the same sheep who fell for the WMD bait & switch that Bushie and the Fox Propaganda channel shoved down America's throat to force us into an illegal war. Unfortunately, at this sad point in America's history, intelligent citizens are outnumbered by ignorant jingoists who froth at the mouth when Bushie rings the bell. I now completely understand the utter helplessness of caring Germans who were trapped in Hitler's Germany.
Feb. 19, 2006, 1:16 p.m. CST
who escaped Hitler's Germany, you don't know jack shit about anything. Ignorant fucks like you are the real problem in this country.
Feb. 19, 2006, 2:07 p.m. CST
Of course it was a rip off The Incredibles (the clock analogy) and Wrath of Kahn (death in engineering) but was still a vast improvement. It was a great idea to actually include a Battlestar in a show that has the word in its title. (beyond the establishing shot and the quick zooms when a ship launches or lands.)
Feb. 19, 2006, 2:18 p.m. CST
Feb. 19, 2006, 2:40 p.m. CST
by Foster Zygote
Asking someone straigh up if a statement has any racist implications is NOT, repeat, NOT an ad homenim attack. I can't accept your defense that your name calling was simply in response to a version of the same by me. The reason I was suspicius of your original post is this: A discussion of extinction led you to mention the demographic change in much of Europe as if this were a type of extinction. You then compared that to the growing percentage of hispanics in the US population. The truth about Europe is far from what many headlines and 10 second news stories would lead people to believe. The percentage of Muslims in Europe is mostly concentrated in Eastern European countries like Albania, Kosovo, Yugoslavia etc. They've been there for many generations. Most Western European countries have between zero and three percent total Muslim citzens. Sweden has around six percent (this is off the top of my head) and France has the largest at around ten percent. It's true that total European population is shrinking while the percentage of Muslim Europeans is growing but there is no danger of the extinction of non Muslim Europeans in the forseeable future. Ultr nationalists and racists in Europe paint a differnt picture. They make sensetional claims that the old European population is in danger of being smothered by "foreigners". US total population has shrunk somewhat recently too but overall the US population has been fairly stable over the last quarter century. There was a big spike after WWII and a slump in the 60s but a recent trend (in Europe, the US or anywhere else) may merely be the start of another minor fluctuation. So in seemingly going from extinction to Muslims and Hispanics as agents of extinction I felt compelled to ask you to clarify your statement. Also, if you wanted to imply that I was a mindless puppet of the "cry racism" crowd you could have chosen a much better subject than Jesse Jackson, who's spent much of his career fighting real racism and is mildly controversial at best. You might have implied that I frequented lectures by Dr. Yosef A. A. ben-Jochannan. He's WAY out there. But you may not be familiar with him so a Johnny Cochran reference might have worked. You could have placed me at his funeral delivering his eulogy. Now THAT would have been funny.
Feb. 19, 2006, 2:46 p.m. CST
You're right on the money, both with your politics and your mockery of poor Gorrister (who you know will be back next week, pretending nothing's happened ... not unlike a certain WMD-inventing, torture-justifying, prisoner-renditioning, Katrina-forgetting, health-care-destroying administration).
Feb. 19, 2006, 2:56 p.m. CST
(quote) Galactica sucks! Moore took the premise of a cool classic space opera (yes, I am talking about the original) and turnt it into pretentious post 9/11-paranoia dreck. What`s the big deal? (/quote) _____________ Man, I'm sorry you see it that way.
Feb. 19, 2006, 3:18 p.m. CST
You are so right. The punch is poisoned, we can see them out in the open dumping the poison in the punch, we're yelling, the punch is poisoned and the damn fools are still drinking it, because the man who's serving it says he loves Jebus too.
Feb. 19, 2006, 3:53 p.m. CST
The Cylon electonic weapon is activated by line of sight attack, as per the mini. The Pegasus wasn't attacked line of sight during the war. The space station was nuked and Cain jumped to nowhere. Even without Baltar on board the Galactica figured out by radio chatter that the Cylons were shutting down Colonial systems remotely. Cain could have figured out the same thing, and if Gaeta can use his tech high school skills to mix and match computer elements, the Pegasus must have someone who can do that, too. It was probably harder for them, since Baltar knew exactly where the Trojan was and could remove it from affected systems, but Cain seems to have sat that part of the war out and maybe that's what she did with her time [outside of organizing rape parties, anyway].
Feb. 19, 2006, 5:03 p.m. CST
the ep where gaeta hooked the computers together to calculate where the fleet jumped to. just cuz you hook two computers together doesn't make them vulnerable to viruses. just how are these virii being transmitted? I can buy the initial virus attack in the miniseres since everything was wired AND it was a sneak attack, but virus attacks afterwards...weak
Feb. 19, 2006, 5:27 p.m. CST
by Darth Bono Jr.
That looks more like Joe Piscopo vs. Hitler!
Feb. 19, 2006, 6:36 p.m. CST
I was kinda surprised to see there wasn't much speculation on the 13th model yet. I agree that the 13th model will be the the hybred, furthermore the emergence of this hybred might just be a metaphor for what earth might represent over the course of the series. If you factor in much of what has been said about how the cylons view humanity you see how the machines may have a better understanding of 'us' then we do. The cylons view us as flawed and themselves as the next order of evolution (of the human species). The only problem is that the cylons themselves lack a soul, and thid lack of a soul ultimately prevents them from achieving their religious aspirations which we all know are fanatical. The logical progression for the cylon collective is to create humaniform cylons (biological machines, sentient but souless) with whom they will then be able to mate with humans (ahh the power of love, an apparent prerequisite for this to occur) in order to produce a 13th model which will have a soul and be able to reach 'heaven'. Now, this is where we get to earth.I believe that by the time the fleet begins to approach 'earth' we will have 2 hybred children one raised by the humans one raised by cylons. there will be a huge battle where on the eve of landing on earth the fleet will be destroyed as will the cylon battlegroup that has been following them. Somehow the 2 children will be deposited on earth [by the cylons alone or possibily a combination of the cylons and humans as the last act of humanity] to propagate a new race. You see Earth represents heaven, there is no 13th colony... yet. The thirteenth colony is us, descended from 2 hybreds whom we allready know genetically are 'whole', as in they posses all the genetic triats of all everyone, as in the universal donor ala the roslan super cure. You see, I think they are going to give us an adam and eve creation story here on earth. think of the
Feb. 19, 2006, 6:39 p.m. CST
I think they are going to give us an adam and eve creation story here on earth. Furthermore, I believe that it will be the cylons who watchover Adam and Eve as the god from the old testament, a wrathfull God who takes a hardline on those who do not follow his teachings. Take into consideration that the cylon collective consciousness is machine and only obeys logic and that the more individualistic humaniform models represent a small faction of the whole as they are ultimately a means to an end. It is fair to postulate that the it is the very nature of the humaniforms to be more 'human'and flexible in their belief. One could then imagine a point where those humaniforms eventually take over the collective so as to pass on a new aspect of their theology to the earthlings, Love. This could be done through an emissary, perhaps named jesus? Or even more interesting is the idea that as humainforms replace the harsh rule of the mechanicals they fragment and bring multiple monotheistic belief structiures to their children on earth IE Christianity, islam Buhdism, etc... All in all you get a nice little creation story of us the earthlings
Feb. 19, 2006, 6:42 p.m. CST
Remember when the cylon told the president that "Adama is a Cylon" in the first season before being blown out of the airlock? Do you guys still think Admiral or Commander Adama could be a Cylon?
Feb. 19, 2006, 7:41 p.m. CST
... over here in Australia, one of our (government) funded stations has ended up with buckets of supposed prisoner abuse photos and video, supposedly running up to the thousands of images. That would suggest more people and a longer period of time than has already been admitted. Maybe www.sbs.com.au might have more information. Some perspective, I am aware that much worse things happened in this prison when Saddam was in charge but we have to make sure we are better than them to a standard we'd accept here at home and not just relatively so compared to them.
Feb. 19, 2006, 8:19 p.m. CST
by Metaluna Mutant
Remember when Leoben whispered to Roslyn that "Adama is a Cylon", right before they tossed him out the airlock? Hey kiddos, Bill Adama isn't the only Adama in the fleet...
Feb. 19, 2006, 8:44 p.m. CST
... Some possibilities include a) Commander Adama is a Cylon b) Lee Adama is a Cylon c) after his death, the Cylons made a model duplicating Zak Adama to freak everyone out at a key point in time d) Leoben was just outright lying to screw things up amongst the ruling members of the fleet
Feb. 19, 2006, 9:09 p.m. CST
At least have the nerve to show that there *are* two legitimate arguments at work. If you're just joing to make anti-abortion folks looks like dogmatic fools who are insensitive to real people and the hardship they face when struggling with a pregnancy, you've just set up a straw man that's easy to knock down. Then you make the other side (Roslin and the doctor for instance) look like principled heroes and say, "Hey, it's just a TV show!" Well, fuck that. This show has become a platform for one-sided political venting and that really disrespects a lot of the viewership in "fly over" country. Creatively, it's a really weak and gutless decision. Apparently, the writers didn't think we could handle anything more mature, challenging or truly open minded than a preachy after school special to set up their soap box. You guys can keep this show. I'll skip all the coming stuff about the murderous God-believing Cylons theological aims which surely would have driven me away from the show eventually.
Feb. 19, 2006, 9:53 p.m. CST
As usual the only portrayal on tv of someone who is agianst legal abortion is that that person is a mindless retard. I enjoy this show, but they need to stay off their soapbox unless they want to present both sides of issues on which reasonable people might disagree. Otherwise, its just self riteous preaching.
Feb. 20, 2006, 12:10 a.m. CST
Shame you can't stay, we'll miss you... really.
Feb. 20, 2006, 12:26 a.m. CST
Pegasus gets hit with a nuke that knocks out the ftl drive, ok so far. FTL drive is repaired by turning 4 valves? Geez, the engine room looks like it's a frakking steam engine! I thought the captain was looking for a shovel to load more coal into the engine. At least on "Enterprise" they tried to make an engine room that actually looked like it powered a spaceship! BTW if facing extinction, abortion is kind of a bad idea.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:02 a.m. CST
I'm surprised that you both feel like the show betrayed your pro-life trust. I'm staunchly pro-choice and I felt Roslin's decision was poorly presented and ridiculously executed, not because it failed to portray both sides of the debate (sorry, but I really don't think that your "side" has any valid reasoning - if you don't like it, don't do it, no one is forcing you), but because she so quickly betrayed her beliefs and then acted in a Republican/Draconian fashion. A simple plea to the people that births are needed and all children will be cared for should have been enough. If she can't even keep the unwanted children out of the hands of pimps and criminals I don't see what right she has to force women to bear children. She's going to pay for her executive decision, and I'll be rooting for her to go down hard the whole time.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:06 a.m. CST
bottom line is that if it were a perfect world, or as this episode very neatly demonstrated, our civilization was on the brink of extinction, yeah, I'd be against abortion. Guess what though, its *far* from a perfect world, nor are we in an apocalypse. So has it occurred to you that if you do believe that all pregnancies should be carried to full term regardless of the situation, maybe you ARE a dogmatic fool to use your words? I'm sorry, but as Roslin said, take your pound of flesh and move on. *IF* this show was doing the one sided political venting as you are accusing. Roslin would have upheld legal abortions and said, "next issue" but guess what, that didn't happen. The writers DID explore both sides of the issue and very thoughtfully presented a scenario where one could conceive of banning abortion as a reasonable course of action. Get it through your skulls that we don't live in a black and white world.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:07 a.m. CST
by Col. Klink
Your grandparents fled fascism and you blindly march toward Bushie's ovens. Shame on you, fool.
Feb. 20, 2006, 2:26 a.m. CST
Feb. 20, 2006, 3:10 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
WTF are you talking about? Star Trek engine rooms don't look anything like what I'd expect an engine room to look like. I expect there to be tubes and valves for coolant and lubricant and what not, and gauges and dials and greasy gizmos, not backlit panels filled with fiber-optic cables and LCDs.....The FTL was not repaired by turning the valves, the valves rerouted the coolant needed for the FTL drives to work.
Feb. 20, 2006, 3:20 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
They absolutely failed to portray both sides of the debate. The only side that wanted to make abortion illegal were the religious wackjobs from Geminon, they were the ONLY group supporting the ban. I am not a religious person, and I believe abortion to be murder. Let me explain why, the common argument is that doctors cannot prove that the little lump of flesh we call the fetus is a human life, so supporters of abortion say, kill it, who cares. The flip side is that those same doctors cannot prove that the fetus is not a human life either. In any other situation involving the possibility of killing a human life we would be cautious, or err on the side of caution. In this situation we throw caution out the window and are possibly, I said possibly, killing innocent human children. How can the possiblity of killing an innocent child be acceptable in a rational society?
Feb. 20, 2006, 3:26 a.m. CST
I don't think your "side" has valid reasoning either, but I am not so small minded as to think that its not an issue with reasonable people on either side. You are a liberal right (I am a D by the way, don't lump me in with the GOP)? That means you are supposed to be open minded, so don't be so quick to dump on an opposing viewpoint. Speaking for myself and what I believe many other anti-abortion people would say, I don't have any desire to let the government control people's personal lives. The reason we are against abortion is that innocent life is being taken. Isn't that really the crux of the issue? If you believed that life was being taken in an abortion, then I would hope you would be on my "side." If I didn't believe that life was being taken in an abortion, then I would be on your "side." Normal religious people (we exist, contrary to media reports) aren't trying to force our beliefs on others, just stepping in to protect the innocent. Anyway, my relevant BSG point is that the anti-abortion forces we portrayed as backwards rigid assholes. In the real world, good people of faith who oppose abortion would NOT send that girl back to be subject to abuse by her parents. Anyone opposed to abortion, that would subject an unwed pregnant woman to any kind of abuse is a hypocrite. Contrary to what RM is portraying, we aren't all like that. What I can appreciate from this episode is the setting up of the president as a total politican who will be exposed when Baltar is elected. She used religion when it helped her, and then shit on the Geminons who helped her get control. How quickely she forgets the "gods" now that she is healed. She compromised on her stance on abortion, which she felt was wrong but did so nonetheless. She suggested that Cain be killed. She will probably sell out somehow to try to win this election.
Feb. 20, 2006, 4:43 a.m. CST
...namely, how come those sexy Cylons glow in the dark when they're really turned on and shove wires up their arms when they're really not - although they're supposed to be indistinguishable from humans. --- OK, but come *on* people; this is an Internet geek board, you're telling me nobody thought up at least a dozen answers? Here are two: --- 1) Just because it's machinery doesn't mean it's made of rods and gears. Considering the Colonial biology/medicine is about at our level, and AFAIK we still can't get a good look at the insides of a human cell, it's perfectly concievable that Cylon body cells are *very* different from our own, even if they're made of the same elements, even in a similar ratio (thus being indistinguishable by electrophoresis), but simply arranged within a very different architecture (more machine-like, if you will, although the human cell already is simply a very complex machine). And so, since many organisms here on Earth (like the bacterial colonies within fireflies) are quite capable of glowing, it's concievable that the nerve cells in the clusters around Cylon spines contain similar structures, and are maybe used for communication of some sort. Also, AFAIK, the conduit Sharon, ahem, connected to was an optical cable, and if one's nervous system is capable of reciving and transmitting light signals, that would make one's nerve cells very much like, well, optical cable ports. This "different cell structure" hypothesis would also account for any number of weird Cylon abilities, like downloading (brain cells with inbuilt radio transceivers, made of superconductors in minute concentrations), strength and speed (different muscle cells), etc., and would make the Cylons clearly *not human*, because even though they resemble humans down to the cellular level, they're completely alien within the cells themselves. This would also cover the breeding problem with humans (it doesn't matter how hot a chick is, if her ova are weird on the inside it's no deal. It's the beauty inside that counts) and the Cylon models (it's not realistic to expect non-human stem cells to undergo cellular division resulting in a humanoid organism, so the human Cylons most likely have to be built cell by cell, a complicated and painstaking process whatever your tech level might be, thus severely limiting the number of possible permutations (down to 12, actually)). --- 2) By that same premise (complex technology too small to be noticed by Colonial scans), but a bit more conservative, the Cylon cells may actually be very human-like, but their bodily fluids could be saturated with carbon-based nanobots (I suppose they don't stick out on the scanner as much as, say, metal ones) working closely with their host body to grant them all those abilities. The point about microscopic optical and radio transceivers remains, but this would make all the machinery external to the cells, an thus completely undetectable by cellular scans, making the Cylons very much human (but simply augmented) - more "Jake 2.0" than "Terminator". This version explains their cyborg abilities even better, but doesn't cover the reproduction issues as neatly. --- What do you fine folks think? Come on, it a sci-fi show, let's talk science!
Feb. 20, 2006, 6:44 a.m. CST
man, Katee Sackhoff - get thee hither!!!
Feb. 20, 2006, 7:45 a.m. CST
On the show, they were portrayed as dicks not because of their position, but because even after they GOT THEIR WAY and had policy changed in their favor [at great political cost to the person who did it] they had to pile on and try to "run up the score". Sounds pretty dickish to me. Take your victory and be happy. It's interesting to see the parallel here, since the pro-life people on this talkback seem to be being dicks in exactly the same way - the polity on the show just MADE ABORTION ILLEGAL, but because not every character on the show had a complete conversion to your point of view, you're STILL PISSED. That makes you dicks. Sorry. It's very clever of Moore and Eick to set up plot points that efficaciously duplicate themselves in the post-airing posturings of the fanbase.
Feb. 20, 2006, 9:06 a.m. CST
The argument that the "pro-life" side "won" in the show means nothing. The writers maneuvered everything so that said victory was depicted as a horrific day in the life of the President and every sensible person in the colonies. It was unanimously a very down moment on screen. Case in point, Roslin telling the Gem. rep to F-off, her tearful proclamation of the new law, Baltar's "principled" stand against the religious nuts. Please. If you guys can't see how you're being spoon fed by the writers with no sense of drama about the situation, that's just sad. I saw lots of proclamations about "taking away rights," not caring about the pregnant girl and keeping people out of "our bodies." But, no character mentioned one compelling real life argument on the other side other than the purely utilitarian one to try and repopulate the race. (something that doesn't apply in our real world debate) Doesn't that seem weird? Wouldn't it have been more dramatic to have characters struggling with compelling reasons on both sides? But, the writers didn't want to give any time to compelling pro-life arguments, because that's not their agenda. I'm not asking anyone to take or portray my side as right, I'm only saying it's a shame that the writers chose to set up idiotic, hard hearted fools on one side and give them no compelling reason to support their point other than pure brainless dogma, making the point by proxy that this is something we can relate to real life. If anyone believes 50% of society who disagrees with killing for convenience doesn't feel that way because they love their fellow humans and want to make the world a better place, they've seriously misunderstood their opposition. Several people in this Talk Back are that much in the dark. At least I can admit there are well intentioned, principled people on both sides. Folks like Col. Klink are blind to that fact, thinking their enemies are two dimensional cartoons, and that's why they fare so badly in debates and elections.
Feb. 20, 2006, 10:15 a.m. CST
If that's your claim, you must never have watched the show before. The Geminese sided with Roslin during the coup. The Geminese freed Roslin from the brig. The Geminese accompanied Roslin to Kobol. That's why this plot development is "neat" - because Roslin is presented as having been a secular feminist on Caprica, but events have transpired in such a way as to make her dependent upon religious fundamentalists for her political survival. The situation is not being treated in a straightforward dramatic way - it's been handled in an ironic way, and to expose the irony the story perspective the writers chose is Roslin's. The fact that the issue gives Baltar an opening to appear as the "secular" alternative [when Baltar has in previous episodes essentially converted to the Cylon religion, and claimed to see himself as an instrument of the Cylon god] simply adds a level of irony. The "utilitarian" aspects of the debate conflict with the Roslin character's own moral views, and she chooses the utilitarian answer - with consequences that she did not foresee. THAT'S the story being told in the episode. It's not a stand-up debate because the show is not being shown on the Catholic Life Network. In any event, I think that under the circumstances the utilitarian and moral arguments about the issue merge and become one and the same. The small number of survivors left throw into relief the value of each individual human life, and thus render ineffective the standard choice argument about individual preference. I don't see why this fails to satisfy you - or, rather, I see why it fails to satisfy you and I think it makes you unreasonable. In many ways, this reminds me of the entire debate that arose when the mini first aired about the Cylon religion, and the offense many religious types took at the fact that the Cylons were monotheists. It didn't occur to them that most science fiction treats religion as a joke that will be discarded as man develops, and that by treating religion as something so important and so intrinsic to consciousness itself that EVEN EVIL ROBOTS WOULD DEVELOP IT, the show was giving religion much more credit than 99% of the other sci-fi out there. Nope, all they could see was the most superficial reading imaginable, because anything less than complete congruence with their views was unacceptable. That's what's happening here, too. 99.999% of the other shows out there on American TV wouldn't even give pro-life forces a half victory. 99.999% of the other shows on American TV would have had Roslin decide to keep abortion rights intact, regardless of the demographic situation. But for some reason, stepping outside of that paradigm is just not good enough, because they didn't read a Papal encyclical out loud in Roslin's office, right?
Feb. 20, 2006, 10:40 a.m. CST
by Col. Klink
As it should have been. She traded away people's essential rights on a "temporary" basis due to a crisis. Much like our "temporary" Patriot Act, will now haunt us for the rest of our lives. It's a shame you religious nutjobs are so obsessed with what other people do with their bodies that you missed the point of the show.
Feb. 20, 2006, 10:41 a.m. CST
by Mr Nice Gaius
What a great show Friday. I've enjoyed the past 3 Apollo/Starbuck-centric episodes. I felt that they were fairly critical in building some nuance into those characters for future episodes (i.e. Starbuck deciding that she does have something to live for, etc.). But this recent episode was a really nice return to form. The political maneuvering by Baltar and Roslin, the pro-life/choice issue being put forward (as it would have to be in the Fleet's circumstances), an appearance by Tom Zarek, and a nice Pegasus action sequence all played to the show's strengths = The Fleet and Adama/Roslin/Baltar. Great stuff and with some nice character moments to boot - Doc Cottle for one and Apollo stepping up to the plate. And as for the promotion, I don't think Adama has too many options. Nepotism? Sure. But I doubt there is a big pool of qualified candidates out there.
Feb. 20, 2006, 10:45 a.m. CST
by Mr Nice Gaius
I think she just got promoted to CAG HOTTIE. Good lord! I know everyone loves Grace Park and Sackhoff is sexy as hell. But you'd be as lifeless as a Centurion if Dualla didn't put a FTL Jump in your pants...
Feb. 20, 2006, 10:51 a.m. CST
You make some compelling arguments, but again, the "win" means nothing because it's depicted as a tragedy. Things couldn't have been more dire if the Pegasus had been destroyed with all hands aboard. Abortion "rights" being overturned was just another horrible surrender (like the Olympic Carrier incident) the humans had to make to their situation, giving up their cherished right to stab defenseless babies in the skull. Pardon me while I shed a tear for poor Roslin giving up part of her precious orthodoxy. Sheesh. And no, having religion in a show isn't necessarily a good thing. If the religious characters (Cylons) that most closely represent what is nearest to your heart are depicted as depraved, evil murderers... No, I wouldn't say that's a net gain at all. LOL. I'd rather the issue wasn't in the show at whatsoever. But, it's apparent now that the show has an axe to grind and one specific point of view to push. From a strictly creative point of view, that sort of treatment just doesn't have the nuance of a B5 (written by a confirmed athiest) where some devoutly religious people were shown as occasionally useful. Here's an idea. What if Adama, while trying to convince Roslin, had said, "Y'know, I was adopted. My real mother could have done away with me, but she didn't." That might have been a genuine, "Hey, I hadn't thought about that" moment for Roslin before she went back to beating the feminist drum. Something that minor could have given the episode balance of a sort. But, nothing, absolutely nothing could be shown in a positive light on that side, just the rabid Geminons starring in the role of Pat Robertson. From a plot point of view, that's fixing the game and removes much of the power of the dramatic events unfolding. Besides, as Hairy Nutsack showed us in his post above, the best arguments against abortion aren't religious based at all. I came to my view by learning about the procedure itself and the common reasons for having it done. Anyway, I know my way of thinking isn't for everyone. So, I respect your disagreement. I just wish I could watch a great show without getting my personal views consistently shat on and mocked in a heavy handed and patronizing way.
Feb. 20, 2006, 10:55 a.m. CST
Actually we can, and if there were substantial differences between human and cylon cells, it wouldn't be all that difficult to spot the two, =assuming= that the Galactica fleet had the appropriate equipment
Feb. 20, 2006, 11:01 a.m. CST
You're the choir they were preaching to with this episode. Remain content that everyone who disagrees with you is just crazy, a bunch of cartoon villains. Consume what moveon.org tells you and never grant that anyone could have a rational opinion that conflicts with yours. Just know that it's a very small box you've fashioned to live in.
Feb. 20, 2006, 11:07 a.m. CST
I know we're capable of separating the basic subcellular components, but is it possible right now to further analyze those? Honestly, I'm a bit out of the loop when it comes to cellular microbiology. How deep did we get?
Feb. 20, 2006, 11:15 a.m. CST
I mean, how deep can we actually see for ourselves, so to speak (electron microscopes and such), not how deep our *indirect* observations go? If viewed directly, any alien structures within the cell would most likely really stick out, but they might be able to mimic human cells under indirect observation. Also, good point about the equipment - it's not unreasonable to assume that the biggest and best electron and X-ray microscopes were in various institutes on all those nuked planets. That CAT scanner Doc Cottle uses might be the most sophisticated scanner the Colonials still have.
Feb. 20, 2006, 11:54 a.m. CST
How much of a bitch is Dee? I guess Billy didn't mean anything to her... stupid whore. Just leading him on that whole time... and barely cried when he died. But damn she is hot.
Feb. 20, 2006, 12:41 p.m. CST
I mean really, what kind of a dipshit was Billy anyway. His move for the gun was so telegraphad that everyone in the room could see it coming. She told him not to do it and what did he do? He did it anyway. It's often sad when the stupid die but you can't stop your life over it. Besides they made a point of saying that a month had passed since Lee got shot. She's supposed to lay off bumping uglies and stay in mourning for exactly how long? I wasn't aware that there was a mandatory time period for mourning the dead.
Feb. 20, 2006, 12:54 p.m. CST
I wasn't really referring to her "fracking" Apollo... just her in general. I realize they had to write him out of the show, and he was a pointless character... but they really didn't set it up at all. They had her cooing over Apollo, but not seeming disinterested in Billy, or unhappy with him or anything. Just, "will you marry me?" ... "no." ... *Billy dies* ... "Dee feigns tears, then runs to Apollo's side" I guess it was just all kind of convenient. But alas it is TV.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:08 p.m. CST
...and I found no fault with this episode. It actually did what I've been harping for... it presented both sides of the issue intelligently. While the Geminininn... Geminiinnn... Jemmydeeeenininn... those people were presented as inflexible and unsympathetic... I didn't mind that because there are a bunch of anti-abortionists who are exactly that way. And of course there are those on the other side of the spectrum who refuse to see the other point of view as well, and I think that point, while not hammered home as plainly, was felt. I appreciated that the debate really came through due to the situation they were in. This episode probably handled the abortion issue in the most intelligent, even-handed manner I've ever seen on tv, even if only in the sci-fi genre.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:22 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
How can you claim the Geminese position isn't presented in a one-side way? Assuming the Colonies were roughly equal in terms of population, then the pro-life movement in the Colonies makes up only 1/12th of all Colonial humans, or 8.3%. According to the show only 8.3% of the humans in the Galactica universe oppose abortion, and they are also a bunch of gods loving kooks. That's the problem in a nutshell. In our real world polls suggest the issue divided at roughly 50%, and there are plenty of people who are not religious and/or religious kooks, like myself. Presenting the pro-life people as religious maniacs, and also as the radical minority does a disservice to good, honest people.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:30 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
Klink wrote: "It's a shame you religious nutjobs are so obsessed with what other people do with their bodies that you missed the point of the show.".....You have missed the point of the pro-life movement. The only people obsessed with what women do with their bodies is the pro-abortion people. I have never met someone who is against abortion who thinks it is a shame women have so much control over their bodies, it has never even been thought. The issue for pro-life people is not about women's bodies, it is about the life or death of human babies. No one wants to restrict a woman from making choices about their bodies, NO ONE! At the same time, NO ONE should have the right to kill a child just because it becomes inconvenient for them to have the child.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:37 p.m. CST
Wow, I couldn't disagree more. Maybe you can help me see the "intelligent" display of the pro-life side of the argument in the episode. I must have been seriously out to lunch during that scene. Let's see. Adama's plea was just based on extinction, so that's out. The Gema... gemamam... uh, those "religious" people were just shown to be mean and uncaring and the representative didn't present any argument at all to the president other than threats. So, honestly I may have missed where someone, anyone might have even remotely proposed the taking of a life as a superior moral imperative. It seemed to me that the episode studiously avoided that uncomfortable truth, just like most abortion supporters seem to. None of abortion's other collateral damage mentioned either. In my opinion, of course. I seriously could have missed something.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:39 p.m. CST
"Assuming the Colonies were roughly equal in terms of population, then the pro-life movement in the Colonies makes up only 1/12th of all Colonial humans, or 8.3%. According to the show only 8.3% of the humans in the Galactica universe oppose abortion" I didn't get that from the show. What I got was that the Geminese are the "fundamentalist" pro-lifers. I don't think at any point the show tried to say "The geminese are the only ones that think abortion is wrong." Just that, the geminese feel the strongest about it because of their religious roots.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:53 p.m. CST
I don't think the episode needed to address or present every single talking point from both sides. I'm just glad I didn't feel insulted as a viewer after this episode, since all too often that's not the case. Yes, the Jemmynites were shown to be over-religious, but I don't recall the argument being painted in the reasonable baby-murders vs the whacky religious let-em-livers. Of course I was watching the midnight re-broadcast and I had to rewind the DVR when I realized I had slept through the last 15 minutes, so I could've missed something. If I have reason to be insulted, please let me know because I need something to take my mind off my good mood today.
Feb. 20, 2006, 1:54 p.m. CST
No one thinks abortion is trivial, but a woman's body is her own. I'm pretty sure you don't want someone to regulate your sperm. You wack jobs make life less fun. (great ep tho')
Feb. 20, 2006, 2:09 p.m. CST
I don't think the episode implied that the Geminese were the only people anywhere who opposed abortion. They just happen to be Roslin's most fanatic supporters, because as fundamentalists they were the most likely to believe that Roslin was in fact a figure from prophecy. This made them a constituency Roslin could not afford to ignore or offend, so the representative from Geminon had ready access to Roslin if they wanted to bitch. The girl who had stowed away was also from Geminon, so that made it appropriate for her parents to employ their representative as an advocate. And although in our own society "religious extremists" aren't the only people who are pro-life, they do tend to make up a significant percentage of the "single issue" voters on this subject; that means if you're making up a story plot that requires the presence of single-issue voters on the subject of abortion within a theoretical alternative polity, and you've previously established that the people from one planet are religious fundamentalists, it makes perfect sense that those people will fill that particular role.
Feb. 20, 2006, 2:12 p.m. CST
My claim that the Geminese aren't presented in a one-sided way is based on the fact that in other episodes there are Geminese who are presented in a positive way, AND they are presented that way precisely because of their religious beliefs. The corporal who rescues Roslin from the brig during her escape is one example.
Feb. 20, 2006, 3:56 p.m. CST
Anybody else feel like the Lee/Dee relationship came out of nowhere? I guess some of you are alluding to that in your posts. But, that scene a couple of episodes ago with Dee listening in on Lee in the locker room caught me completely by surprise. Was the Billy actor known to be leaving the show or something and they had to find an alternate love interest for her? I thought that Billy, as the idealistic political protege, was a great character. Dee was his girl and I thought all their feelings were mutual. Suddenly, she was all cold on him. I guess the prophecy about the great leader dying of a wasting disease and of Billy's prominent future is out the window now. That abandoning of plotline almost reminds me of LOST in its wanton disregard for previous episodes.
Feb. 20, 2006, 4:12 p.m. CST
Isn't this just a visual trick to give the viewers an "aha!" moment? Like not meant to be taken literally? Are we really meant to think that the Cylons glow like that when they're all hot 'n' bothered? Cuz unless there's some ban on non-missionary sex in their world, I think maybe the Chief would have noticed...
Feb. 20, 2006, 4:46 p.m. CST
The Geminese were portrayed as extremely unsympathetic to the needs of the girl. That is a one sided straw man being set up by the writers, and I think its insulting to the issue. If they are going to bring it up at all, I just think it would have been more fair and would have made for a more compelling argument between the pres and the Geminons if there was compassion on thier side and not naked dogmatism.
Feb. 20, 2006, 5:43 p.m. CST
As it is, the death rate would be greatly outpacing the birth rate, due to all the factors that would be increasing the mortality rate amongst both adults and children, regardless of what you do. The environment (everyone's basically living full time in submarines) is not conducive to positive population growth. That's not even taking into account the fact that if even one attack gets through, they could lose hundreds or even thousands of people in one stroke. They will have to get to a habitable planet to start pushing the population back up again - even more difficult, they'd have to be somewhere the Cylons can't find and attack them.
Feb. 20, 2006, 6:06 p.m. CST
No, I don't think it's just a visual trick, I think it was very much literal. But I also think it was an exception. I don't believe they glow whenever they frack, it's more likely that that one time Six was glowing because something else was going on beside the sex. I actually happen to believe that it was in that moment that she implanted him with her mental image - all the details seem to point in that direction.
Adama of all people was the one to turn Roslin around, and the fanatics still bitch about it...yeah I'm going to agree with fluffy or whoever called you people dicks. We already have the freedom of choice when it comes to this issue..pro lifers can be pro lifers...they can pop out all the babies they want..no one interferes (cept maybe social services when they go too far and don't have the means to care for all those mouths) and the pro choice people can be pro choice and no one interferes, (well except for the extremists who believe its justified to bomb abortion clinics). anyway. the only reason this is an issue is once again..the fanatics are dicks..arent happy with the fact that they CAN live their lives the way they want to...THEY WANT MORE, they want to be able to tell perfect strangers: "nope, it doesn't matter that you were raped or that it was an accident or they're too young or that it might endanger your life..you're going to have that baby whether you like it or not." Face it, the fanatics are dicks. You want prolife? give me a world with no rape, no danger to the mother, and all parents are financially and emotionally stable enough to raise children..then I'll be on the pro life side..till then, STFU. Ron Moore has always been respectful to religion in the shows he writes. Just take a look at DS9. When you see Roslin being despondent during her press conference..you call it a tragedy, I look at it and I see a person who has the maturity to put her own personal beliefs aside and put the needs of the people first. Obviously you can't say the same about the Geminese/religious whackjobs. She had the power to say, fuck you Gemini! we're going to do things my way or the highway...but she didnt...and again..STILL you bitch. Well I'll say it cuz Roslin couldnt...Fuck you Geminese! try not to be such poor winners in the future...assholes.
Feb. 20, 2006, 7:01 p.m. CST
Ya know, it is good that TV makes people think from time to time. Too many shows on the tube these days simply make people's brains flatline. On this abortion issue, I really don't care. I have my own personal beliefs and opinions on the topic, but this is just a TV show after-all. There is no point in "debating" the topic when respect for opposing views is lost. This crap is almost as bad as those who post "first" after a dozen posts have already been made. And it is almost twice as bad as those who post about different shows with no relation to the topic or show the particular talkback is about. Honoris Causa... Silverblade
Feb. 20, 2006, 7:56 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
The only person acting like a dick is the one accusing others of being dicks, the rest of us are just enjoying a good conversation among friends, so you STFU VoodooV you asshole.
Feb. 20, 2006, 8:09 p.m. CST
Might only be when they want to initiate a pregnancy, so it doesn't happen all the time. Which might mean that Dr Baltar is actually going to be a father. It certainly will be entertaining watching him trying to weasel out of Colonial Child Support if his behaviour on other matters is anything to go by ...
Feb. 20, 2006, 8:11 p.m. CST
Just to clarify.
Feb. 20, 2006, 9:06 p.m. CST
gboybama I have seen a lot of people talking about how sudden the Lee/Dee relationship came about and I don't completely understand it. Many episodes back we had moments between the two where an attraction was obvious. They were both kind of involved with other people (Dee with Billy and Lee trying to connect with Kara) but the groundwork was visible all the way back to the episode where Lee was teaching her unarmed combat. That's been a while.
Feb. 20, 2006, 11 p.m. CST
by Snowden's Secret
Consistently! I love the show's ambition but it is too eager to create parallels to events in 21st C U.S. This ISN'T 21st C U.S. where we are living high on the hog, this is a situation with the entire population of Galactica and the fleet in constant struggle for survival. Abortion and birth rates would certainly NOT be an issue. When human beings are in a survival mode, they become VERY fertile. The fertility rate of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, where population growth is viewed as weapon of war against Israel, has soared to 8.8 children per woman. The 45 nations of East, West and Middle Africa average more than six births per woman. These chickies in the fleet would be breeding like bunnies. The writers consistently try to draw parallels where none exist. Take advantage of this fantastic situation to explore the limits of human nature under extreme crisis. This is what Sci-fi is for - to explore things that we can't in normal fiction and real life. There are still some great moments on the show. I just wish that they would stop trying to draw obscure allegories and push the envelope of imagination. I also wish that everyone would stop acting like wussies. We're being threatened by sentient, laser-spewing, shape-changing toasters! Suck it up and deal with a few restrictions on creature comforts and civil liberties. Really looking forward to next week. That's what this show should be all about.
Feb. 20, 2006, 11:58 p.m. CST
This talkback really demonstrates this in a nutshell. One side thinks the argument is about women's rights. The other side thinks it's about murdering innocents. Thus, the 'pro-life' and 'pro-choice' language, as opposed to anti-life and anti-choice. This is while it will never be resolved. And as long as it's legal in non-Tv land, all you can do is to exercise your choice to have or not have one. And this is exactly why this debate completely misses the point of the episode. As someone earlier said, this was not about abortion as such. It was about the politics of freedoms in wartime. And especially important for Roslin's character, since she had originally ordered the Cylon abortion. But the writers were not interested in an abortion debate. That would not be interesting and not what a scifi show is for. Hell, I don't even let my students write papers about abortion, because it's an unresolveable issue based on personal beliefs. What possible purpose would it serve to highlight an abortion debate on Battlestar Galactica? It's about the decisions that have to be made in wartime. And as this show demonstrates time and again, the decisions leaders make are not always the right ones. It leaves it to us to decide, like any intelligent show should.
Feb. 21, 2006, 12:56 a.m. CST
by Col. Klink
Your misguided religious beliefs will NEVER be imposed in a secular nation like the US, no matter how much you pray. Get used to the fact that other people don't have to live their lives according to whatever fantasy figure you decide to worship. If you'd be more comfortable living in a country where superstitious dogma is imposed by the government on it's citizens, try Iran. I hear it's the next stop on Bushie's "To Hell in a Handbasket" tour.
Feb. 21, 2006, 7:20 a.m. CST
...see, we were all getting along, being all intellectual-like, and you come over here being a dick.
Feb. 21, 2006, 8:44 a.m. CST
However I disagree with you for this reason: Our society isn't mature enough to take care of the tens of thousands of orphans and the homeless children that here now. Our socitey views people as liabilities, not assets (Hey, Carl Marx told us to do it, blame him). We do a bad job take care of them now. So while that doesn't mean, lets give abortions to everyone - you have to ask this... if a woman gets pregnant and changes her mind, who are you, and who are we, to force her to do something with her body against her will. And with all the horible, cruel and unloving mothers in the world now, why would you want to force a child to enter the world and live with a woman who doesn't want him/her and may be resentful of that child's life and may hurt that child physically or emotionally. You are right, who's to know if that lump of cells is a "real human being" or not... as far as I'm concerned, it's still part of that woman's body and I believe that she has the right to do what she wants with her body. AS for BSG - I don't think they were making a political statement like others think... this is just a story in their universe and it has to be addressed. They are the last 50,000 humans left in the known universe. If they plan on living, they gotta start getting busy and set up some schools too. I agree with another post above that they really need more resources because a population boom may leave people starving. It would be funny if they institue a "fertility month festival" or group bareback parties! Oh, sorry... that's my overly active immagination again... hey, you guys have a great week!
Feb. 21, 2006, 8:51 a.m. CST
Lots of interesting stuff to ponder there. Klink? Is this mic on? Didn't you hear when I said my objections to abortions weren't primarily religious based? Most athiests abhor murder. Does that make them Jesus freaks? Oh well, live in your fear-filled dream world where everyone's trying to cart you off to a concentration camp, take away your back issues of High Times and using the Constitution as toilet paper. We heard the same make believe scare tactics during the Reagan years. OMG IT'S THE END OF DEMOCRACY, SOON WE'LL ALL BE IN CHAINS, PRAYING TO JERRY FALWELL!!!!! Sheesh, grow up.
Feb. 21, 2006, 8:57 a.m. CST
I said "most athiests abhor murder." That could be misinterpreted as a slam. I know full well that athiests have (what I think is) an equal chance at being moral people as anyone else. There are plenty of wretched religious people out there. It's just the human condition. So, a shout out to all my athiest friends! Woot.
Feb. 21, 2006, 9:41 a.m. CST
by Snowden's Secret
Hairy Nutsack: very reasoned argument :-)
Feb. 21, 2006, 10:39 a.m. CST
"Oh, no, no it's not religion, it's science, I swear!" Go peddle your wares elsewhere. Klink, I'm as pissed as you,(All 3 branches of government, and the supreme court!?!) but these fucktards will never learn. Olsin, way to straddle the fence, coward.
Feb. 21, 2006, 11:45 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
I appreciate not being called a dick. Let me the address the "it's part of her body" part of your argument. See the truth is the fetus is in fact not a part of her body. A child, while sharing common family DNA markers, has a distinct and different DNA strand all it's own. As for the rest, I'm not sure how you can justify abortion on the basis of there being bad parents in the world. To make that argument valid we'd have to kill the bad parents, not the children. "....if a woman gets pregant and changes her mind...." We aren't talking about a woman buying a pair of jeans she doesn't like here, we are talking about a little lump of flesh that may or may not be a human being. The fact that she changes her mind is inconsequential, there was once a thing in the this world called taking responsibility for our actions. How about people spend less time being selfish and be more responsible with their bodies, MEN AND WOMEN. Sex is more important than a lot of things, but it's not more important than the life of a child, ever! In fact, I'd place the value of a child's life above 99.9% of all adult lives, children have vast potential, we adults have already wasted our lives, evidenced by us arguing about abortion on AICN.
Feb. 21, 2006, 11:58 a.m. CST
if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck,..etc..etc. I guess its just me then, I have no way of describing a group of people who get their way, yet still bitch and moan about it and STILL want you to conform to their beliefs other than calling them dicks and assholes..guess I'm the flawed one here. Roslin did what a good leader should do, she compromised, she is for a woman's right to choose, but she saw the writing on the wall that the need for a growing population overrides womans' choice in this case. The fact that the antiabortionists STILL bitch about this and see this as one-sided political venting is one hundred percent dickery. I'm sorry, but I see it as pure hypocricy that this nation was founded on the idea of no religious persecution..but if your religion or lack therof disagrees with the antiabortionists religion....watch out! We already have the ability to choose to have the pregnancy..or not..but obviously thats not good enough for some people or else we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Feb. 21, 2006, 12:13 p.m. CST
The light could be organic; a chemical reaction similiar to fireflies and various sea creatures. Why they would have cells that do this I don't know, but it would help explain Boomer sticking an optical fiber in her arm. The colonials could potentialy use this to detect cylons if they knew to look for these cells but they don't know about them yet.
Feb. 21, 2006, 12:13 p.m. CST
Don't be a fool with your life! Oops. too late. Maybe you can get a job on LOST. Over there, they seem more interested in adding a new character every week than they do in developing any of the 14 they already got.
Feb. 21, 2006, 12:25 p.m. CST
First, dude, before you call me a coward, get my name right. Secondly, it's not the job of television writers to represent your personal political view at all, let alone accurately. They are there to tell a story. If you watch tv to validate your personal politics, then you're a bit of a pathetic frak, aren't you? Even though it looks like I agree with you politically, that's not really the point. I hate it just as much when right wingers get pissed off when tv doesn't reflect their positions. Taking a side and ranting is the easy way out in telling a story. To me, that's far more cowardly then telling a story with various gray areas.
Feb. 21, 2006, 12:54 p.m. CST
by Col. Klink
In your world, "being a dick" equals being told the cold, hard truth. Sorry for reality, sister.
Feb. 21, 2006, 1:05 p.m. CST
by Col. Klink
These superstitious fanatics are DESPERATE to convince everyone that the only reason they want to take away women's rights is to save unborn lives. It's a shame that their devotion to the sanctity of life ends at the death penalty debate. Amazing how many Pro-Life zealots are Pro-Death penalty, isn't it? Their ignorance doesn't raise them to the level of "cartoon villains", they're still just useful idiots to be used by the fascists who have currently hijacked the US government.
Feb. 21, 2006, 1:48 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
This could have stayed a nice friendly debate, but you fucks had to turn it into a personal one.
Feb. 21, 2006, 1:51 p.m. CST
Watch how this works. Some (not me) would say convicted murderers may deserve the death penalty. They've proven incompatible with society and a danger to others. Unborn babies, on the other hand, are innocent by definition. Agreed? I have no particular opinion on the death penalty one way or the other, but using the logic I've just imparted to you, surely you can see a rational argument for being pro death penalty and anti abortion. Neither of us may take that stance, but I can see the reasoning behind it. No inconsistency there at all. Now, someone who wants to protect convicted murderers and kill the innocent unborn... that's a person with no rational leg to stand on whatsoever. I mean, can you imagine my confusion that many pro-choicers are all worried about dolphins and trees but can't send enough money to support abortion mills? It's a testimony to the brutality of our age I suppose and the vanishing nobility of the human race. Some people cherish an old redwood more than a baby. To me, that sounds materialistic. I don't need a Bible to tell me that's wrong. And while I'm on the subject, did I just hear the classic pro abortion logic that we don't want more poor, unwanted children around, so they're really better off not being born? Pardon me for valuing already-created lives whether they be poor, unwanted, disadvantaged or whatever. Saying they're somehow less deserving of being brought to term or somehow more problematic reeks of a bloody Final Solution to me. Except, instead of a fantasy Holocaust like Klink proposes, this one is ACTUALLY HAPPENING, right now as I type. Some little 4 month old fetus had it's heart stopped, an already created life, snuffed out. That doesn't at least make you question things? Well, probably not. To take the alternative position, one must harden their heart such that no amount of reasoning can get through. The deaths become something hypothetical and one's conscience is buried deep where it can never be reached. You must portray everyone as fanatics and never engage in the discussion point by point. Really, I feel for some of you and wish you well. I hope you can one day see the injustice you now campaign for. Shame on this show for portraying one side of this sensitive issue as nothing more than wacko, control-freak nutjobs. Neither side deserved that sort of mockery.
Feb. 21, 2006, 1:54 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
I can't see anyone complaining about the decision, that is not the problem we are having with the episode. The problem is that they portrayed the pro-life side as if only religious zealots believed abortion is wrong. I am not religious or zealous, what I am is a rational human being who can look beyond the half-assed science people use to justify irresponsible behavior and see that the reality is people don't want to have kids so they'd rather just kill them. People don't want to be honest about what is really happening. Oh and before you bring up rape and incest, you can have those abortions, I won't ever argue about those, rarely happens anyway.
Feb. 21, 2006, 1:59 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
I'm not superstitious or religious you asshole, and I absolutely want to save unborn lives. As for the death penalty, explain to me why you would prefer to protect the life of a brutal murderer over the life on an innocent child. Man, what a barbarian I am hoping to save the life of a baby over a serial killer, what the hell am I thinking?
Feb. 21, 2006, 2:32 p.m. CST
... would I have thought that I would be in agreement with a person known as Hairy Nutsack. Preach onnn, brutha! And Klink, is your arm getting tired from holding up your day-glo sign?
Feb. 21, 2006, 2:37 p.m. CST
Should have gotten your name right, my bad. I respect you. When you post, you seem to have a good bead on things. Coming into a thread, and explaining why both sides are ignorant children, seems a little condescending. Yes this is a show we all love, and the subject matter can be debated, better, elsewhere. But rational, logical, viewpoints are needed here. If we don't fight these jingoistic assholes, everyone loses.(look at our government) Still, calling you a coward, is a bit much. I am truly sorry.
Feb. 21, 2006, 2:44 p.m. CST
Feb. 21, 2006, 3 p.m. CST
First off: Why can't AICN upgrade these talkbacks to include formatting and editing? Sheesh... Anyway, the issue is this: Throughout history, women have always sought to terminate unwanted pregnancies, and they always will. This is a simple fact of human nature that the pro-life people just can't seem to understand. They also seem unable to comprehend what the end result will be if they get what they say they want. Women, and the good doctors that simply want to protect their health by giving them a clean and safe way to terminate the pregnancies they were going to terminate anyway, will end up in prison. Many more will die from back-alley abortions and through their own ham-fisted, coat-hangered efforts. A black market in abortions, with all the inherent horrifying social ramifications, will quickly arise to help meet the demand. In short, a whole host of social ills will arise in short order; this is how it was before Roe v. Wade and how it will surely be again if abortion is criminalized. Much better is the idea of minimizing unwanted pregnancies, and thus the need for abortion, in the first place. But the very same conservatives who want the practice criminalized are also the ones who object to comprehensive sex education and reliable, freely available birth control. Until these people get their collective heads out of their asses, there is no hope this issue will be satisfactorily resolved. Which, of course, is exactly what Karl Rove and the Republican High Command wants. This issue works heavily in their favor as they can get their "useful idiots" all riled up about abortion and gay marriage while completely ignoring the much more serious issues facing the country today. As a result, some very bad people get elected and Republicans maintain power. They're then free to enact legislation and tax policy that works against the financial and social interests of the very people that elected them. It's a pretty sweet deal for 'em.
Feb. 21, 2006, 3:22 p.m. CST
But, at least you're somewhat willing to engage the issue. Number one, I am extremely pro contraception. Prolifers who are against contraception need to be hit with a frying pan. Number two, you can't justify "protecting health" if it takes killing to do it. Death of a baby trumps anything other than another death. The rest you discussed was just politics. Each side has their partisan assholes in power, unfortunately, and they're all in it strictly to enrich themselves. (At least it usuallly seems that way to me.) What it "boils down to" is whether one believes a human is being terminated or an inanimate slug of some kind. Regardless of whether one is spiritual or not, if you believe the former, you'll be pro life. If you tend toward the latter, you'll be pro choice. That's really it. Of course, medical SCIENCE tells us that a fetus is indistinguishible from us in every meaningful way. Heartbeat, DNA, fingerprints, etc. So, to my way of thinking it's just a human being at another stage of development. You can't justify its death at the hands of another for convenience or financial reasons, which account for 97% of abortions. Rape and incest? Honestly, I'm not fit to judge those situations. The rape of an innocent approaches the heinous tragedy of abortion in its scope, so I couldn't really say what's worse. Seems like compounding one bad act with another, but like I said, I'm not qualified to say.
Feb. 21, 2006, 3:39 p.m. CST
by Glowing Spine
... where I can "blindly march toward Bushie's ovens". I wouldn't want to miss that. Sounds like the fiery joys of Carousel. Christ, three baseships and a battlestar in a drunken nuke brawl in the last ep, and the last 20 posts have alternated between ad hominems and attempts to argue with idiots.
Feb. 21, 2006, 3:45 p.m. CST
Gboybama, you've illustrated the problem very well. It's the pro-lifer's obsession with "life" that's the sticking point. Nobody likes abortion, nobody wants to "kill babies", and no woman treats it as just another form of contraception. It's a difficult, pschologically damaging procedure for whomever undergoes one. But human nature is human nature - woman WILL seek to terminate pregnancies for various reasons; always have, always will. We have to accept that and deal with it as a society. The way you do that with a minimum of social carnage is to keep it legal, but make it as rare as you possibly can, and there are ways to do that. Look at it this way: if we reduced the speed limits to 25 mph everywhere, we would possibly save 25-30,000 lives every year. If we make smoking illegal, we might save half a million! Yet we don't, because we view the social disruption that would result as a far more serious problem. We continue to execute people even though we know that some of them are surely innocent (unless we believe the American judicial system to be infallable - LOL). In short, while nobody, and I mean NOBODY likes abortion, the alternative, criminalization, is worse. Until the pro-lifer's understand this, the issue will continue to divide America and allow unfit people to be elected to government. About 60% of American understand this; the rest will hopefully come around eventually. If not, we'll never be rid of this devisive issue.
Feb. 21, 2006, 4:30 p.m. CST
Thanks for the nice reply. Okay so a a fetus has differnt DNA, fine, but it normally can not live without the woman... so in layman's terms it's part of the woman. if the woman smokes the baby smoke, if she drinks, the baby drinks, if she dies, the fetus or the glob of cells/meat will most likely die. It's part of the woman. However I wasn't "defending abortion on the basis of there being bad parents in the world." I was simply stating an observation that as a country and as a species we're not doing that great of job taking care of our kids now. So if somoene doesn't want to have a kid, they shouldn't be forced to have one (I'm talking about wives, girlfriends who've changed their minds, one night stands and victims of incest and rape). It's not fair to the woman nor is it to her partner. And I agree with your call for personal responsibility too, but accidents happen and being forced to have a child when you're not ready for it or don't want to do it - isn't the best solution either. Who says every woman is supposed to have a baby and not every woman wants to have a baby. As someone above posted, women have always seeked to have an abortion and always will. And to say, well they shouldn't have sex isn't a solution either. Might as well tell them not to breathe. Now I know that you're have been simply sharing what you believe, but I also wonder, if you're a male, why do you care so stongly about it. You can't give birth. You can't even really make any decision about any child that you father. The woman can deny you access, legally or illeaglly. And if your gf or wife really wanted to have an abortion, there's nothing you can do - it's all in her hands. She's the one who has to physically and mentally change for 9 months carrying the baby and then for the rest of her life raising the baby. The only thing you can really count on is paying for that child - for 18 years or more. But I'm curious - and I ask this simply as a question and not as a slam, but why do you think this is something you should be concerned about? If you and your partner don't beleive in abortions, then don't abort any children.
Feb. 21, 2006, 4:48 p.m. CST
for suggesting that a life might outweigh convenience in most cases. What a radical I must be. Far be it from me to want to take society's focus off conducting business as usual and following their bliss. Sad, sad times. As a final thought for your consideration, I wonder what folks might say about the premature babies that are born like three and four months into their development and survive through the wonders of medical science? Are those tiny babies people worthy of our full protection once breathing in the world? Anyone would say yes. But, if they hadn't been born a little early, in that case, they wouldn't have been people and it would have been okay to do away with them due to the desires of another person? That doesn't make any sense. There's no difference between that little one in the womb and that prematurely born one surviving on feeding tubes. Both are utterly dependent on others to survive. One is simply hidden from view. But, that's a very uncomfortable thought for folks who don't want to grapple with the situation fully and want to be content that some greater good is served by allowing the slaughter that's currently going on. Say, a nurse, at the mother's urging removed the tubes from that healthy premature baby and it died. 99% of us would want her prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law no matter what her rationale. Once science continues to expose the mystery of development in the womb, I have hopes that abortion will become as insufferibly abhorrent to society as the ficticious nurse I mentioned. But, like everyone says, it's a very complicated issue and there's no perfect solution. I just have my take and I'm entitled to it.
Feb. 21, 2006, 4:52 p.m. CST
... simply because it's wrong. I'm male, and I'm very concerned about it. Not only am I concerned about the death of the unborn child but also about how accepting such a disgraceful act as no big deal is further eroding us as a civilization.
Feb. 21, 2006, 5:21 p.m. CST
First of all, this was a great episode, probably one of the best of the series. It reminded me of what's missing in season 2 from the brilliant season 1. Now, as far the Abortion issue is concerned. I thought they handled it quite well without being too preachy. Yes, Roslin is painted as a staunch Pro-Choicer, but it was Adama who suggested that she go the other route. Is he Pro-Life? We don't really know and I like that they don't specify one way or the other. I admit that there were times when it *was* borderline preachy - the gasps of shock when Roslin made her announcment during the press conference comes to mind. I have a problem when a show gets too preachy, but I don't mind that it expresses a particular point of view. In fact, I'm tired of shows that feel obligated to always show a balanced picture of every subject matter. Art is not (and should not be) objective. It should be a true expression of the artist's thoughts, feelings and yes, political opinions. So if Ron Moore wants to express his Pro-Life views on his show, he definitely should. And we, the viewing audience, should debate them if we don't agree.
Feb. 21, 2006, 5:46 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
Hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of women who love abortion. My mother works with a woman right now that has had 8 abortions and is proud of it, fucking proud of it! Why do I care? Yes I'm male, but I grew up helping to raise my 2 younger brothers from both of my parents' 2nd marriages. I am also now married with a son of my own, and because of these things I have come to treasure children. "And to say, well they shouldn't have sex isn't a solution either. Might as well tell them not to breathe." There it is in a nutshell, most people's excuse for why abortion should be legal, because people can't keep their pants on, so let's excuse bad behavior and give them a way out. Personally I believe we should stop sacrificing/murdering innocent children on the altar of the sex gods. Of course people can live without having sex, what a ridiculous suggestion that they can't. Betcha half the nerds that post in these TalkBacks have to live without having sex, even if that isn't their choice. LOL The fact that people have always done this....blah blah blah is inconsequential. That's like excusing a murderer because, hey there have always been serial killers after all.
Feb. 21, 2006, 5:58 p.m. CST
by Childe Roland
Dude went to a law school where his fraternity brothers apparently sodomized him with broom handles and then beat him with them while burning pictures of his family in front of him. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Certainly wasn't as bad as what happened to Six on the Pegasus. In other news, aceattorney is drafting a C&D to the families of Jewish survivors from WWII concentration camps. He'd prefer they stop engaging in the hyperbole of referring to the whole thing as a "Holocaust." Acceptable alternative language outlined in the letter includes: "the not-so-nice times," "the recent unpleasantness" and "that thing that happened over there in Germany." The mind boggles, aa. As for BSG, I almost didn't watch after the mini. What a mistake that would've been. The show just keeps getting better.
Feb. 21, 2006, 6:11 p.m. CST
I agree that it's a complicated issue, which is why I'm on the fence about it. On one hand, I think abortion should not be so freely available such that it can be done on a whim. But on the other hand, I'm worried about the kind of society that banning abortion will create - back alley and black market abortions and all that. I think you, as well the pro-choicers on the forum, all fall into the same pitfalls that make this issue so contentious (and complicated). Pro-Lifers talk about "killing babies" as if the fetus at any stage is a "baby". Wherease Pro-Choicers think that a women's choice should always outweigh the possible killing of a life (whatever that means). In the end, it really comes down to how we define life and when we think life begins. If at conception, then should we outlaw contraceptives that basically cause "early abortions" (terminates the zygote shortly after conception)? So let's say we allow contraceptives because we think - well that's too early. Then at what point do we decide that life has begun and that life has the same rights and priveleges as anyone else? Frankly, I don't know.
Feb. 21, 2006, 7:34 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
I appreciate you replying in a civil manner...."Pro-Lifers talk about "killing babies" as if the fetus at any stage is a "baby"- the question begged then is when does the "fetus" become a "baby" then? One of my best friends' brother was 4 months premature, he was one of those babies in the incubators for months and months even after his regular due date came around. By standards set forth by pro-aborts he was not a human being seconds before he exited the womb, I mean what the fuck!?!? The only definition a pro-abort accepts for a "fetus" to become a "baby" is when they exit the womb and take their first breath of oxygen. We are talking about people that want third-trimester partial-birth abortions allowed. If they said a "fetus" is only a "baby" once it reaches the point of viability then maybe, I stress maybe, there could be a meanignful discussion, but when pro-abort fucktards insist that a fetus is only a human being once it leaves the room, that defies all logic and reason and reflects nothing but a blood thirsty need to defend a woman's right to choose, whatever the hell that even means. Next let's talk about the billion-dollar abortion industry, follow the money folks, that's what this is really all about.
Feb. 21, 2006, 7:54 p.m. CST
The difference between recently and the first season is that it's always stupid humans screwing things up. Before, it was the Cylons doing something clever and the humans surviving it. Now it's stupid humans committing terrorism. Stupid humans killing commanders interfering with the Black Market. Stupid humans ignoring orders and flying into a trap.
Feb. 21, 2006, 9:01 p.m. CST
I'm getting the picture that you're a little uptight about sex. (please note that I'm not calling you names) I may be wrong, and I probably am, but some of the things you said triggered some flags. Sure people can live without sex, but very few want to live without it. Anyway, we'll never agree but one of the other reasons why I support a woman's right to choose is because an abortion ban will eventually lead to something else that may effect me. If we let our government tell women what they can't do with their own reproductive system, the next step is to control what men can do - and I don't want that. And I think that for us to be a free society, we have avoid those kinds of pit falls. If you don't like abortion, don't get one, if you don't like gay marraige, don't marry a person of the same sex. My ex-gf getting an abortion doesn't hurt or effect you. You may think it's murder, but I hope that your thoughts don't lead you to take action in someone's personal matter and decision that will never impact or harm you (unless that kid would've eventually invent flying cars). But I hope in BSG they'll revisit this decision in "that world" and at least drop a line as to what the effects of Roslyn's desicion are.
Feb. 21, 2006, 9:15 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
How you read that into anything I said is beyond me. There are all kinds of things people want to do, but that doesn't mean it's smart to do anywhere, at anytime, and under any circumstance. I'm all for responsible people having responsible sex, a message from the condom lobby, but I am completely against people having sex irresponsibly, and abortion facilitates that kind of lifestyle and thinking. I had sex when I was in highschool, and it was the greatest experience I had ever had up until that time, but looking back on that period in my life I know that I was mentally and emotionally unprepared for the possible repercussions of that sex, and I'm glad I didn't have to face any of them. So now that I am a responsible adult I am smart enough to conclude that I was foolish to be having sex when I was that young, but by all means let's encourage our teenagers to bang away, what's the problem? They can just get an abortion after all.
Feb. 21, 2006, 10:04 p.m. CST
I respect you man, but that one statement seems like the worst argument yet. If something doesn't affect us directly we shouldn't be concerned that it goes on? We'd have a scary world if that was the rule. We might still have slavery, for instance. Whether we like it or not, our laws are based on secular moral judgements. I'm not sure there's any other viable alternative. And, I would further add that some of our greatest moments have been when the "not involved" actually stood up for the rights of those who couldn't speak for themselves. That's one thing that keeps me motivated to keep talking to people about this. Anyway, cheers.
Feb. 21, 2006, 11:28 p.m. CST
My daughter just had her one year birthday. But she doesn't look like a one year old, because she was also 4 months early and spent that time in the hospital like your example, Nutsack. We were initially faced with extreme possibilities of permanent damage and a terrible life for her, and we were given the choice whether to have the baby 'naturally' which would have resulted in a stillbirth or through a c-section that would give her a small chance to live (she was just on the cusp of viability with a vent and produced surfactant, technology that's only recently available). My wife and I knew deep down she wanted to live, so we took the chance and after a 4 month ordeal she's seemingly fine, thank the gods. But when she was 'born' she was a fetus - I mean she didn't even have proper skin. And the doctors' outlook was initially pretty grave. It certainly made me think about the abortion issue - and made me glad that we had the choice. If we had aborted, I would have had a hole in my life and I'm so glad we didn't. And that's every person's burden to carry who is faced with that difficult decision. Not yours. Not the government's. Not the born-agains'. I can't imagine any woman who's not fucking insane who would be 'proud' of having 8 abortions. Every person faced with that decision has to live with the consequences of whatever choice they make. In this life and the next. I'm sure this has been said, but it's just the height of fucking hypocrisy to go to battle over the 'unborn' when there are millions of actual children who die every day over starvation and disease. Pro-lifers should crusade to help them instead of humiliating people who have to deal with their own personal tragedies. And billy, thanks for the apology. You probably meant it in a Stephen Colbert kinda way. I still stand by my assertion that television should not be beholden to a political stance.
Feb. 21, 2006, 11:57 p.m. CST
Can't even accept an apology, you sound like a prick. I pity your students. (glad your kid is ok, tho')
Feb. 22, 2006, 12:21 a.m. CST
by Col. Klink
They whine "Protect the unborn! Life is sacred" But people on Death Row? "Fry 'em!!" It seems Jesus only loves you in the womb. Once you pop out, you're fair game.
Feb. 22, 2006, 12:25 a.m. CST
The thing that always gets my goat about this argument is... both sides seem to ignore the things they have in common, namely: they should agree that there's TOO MANY UNWANTED PREGNANCIES. There's no magic bullet, but it starts with education and counselling. If a wide-ranging, multi-front effort were made to approach the problem from that angle, in time abortion wouldn't need to be outlawed, it'd be OBSOLETE. Wouldn't that be something worth fighting for?
Feb. 22, 2006, 12:31 a.m. CST
From multiple sources on the radio (so take it with the appropriate grain of salt) that the abortion rate / pregnancy rate is 23%. So nearly a quarter of all pregnancies end in some sort of abortion. (I'd assume that includes medically required ones, so that # can be considered to be inflated, I'd guess) I consider myself pro-choice, but that number (if its accurate) is still a fucking tragedy.
Feb. 22, 2006, 12:46 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
The only thing that has been proven in this conversation is that you are a drooling idiot Klink. The fact that you cannot distinguish the difference between a baby (or fetus if you prefer) over that of someone on death row proves you are a fucking retard. The death penalty is problematic for many reasons, but even comparing a death row inmate to an unborn child is way WAY beyond the fucking pale you goddam brainless prick. Also, you pathetic asshole, I'm not a holy roller, I'm not even sure I believe in god or not. So take your religion bashing and shove it up your stupid cum soaked ass.
Feb. 22, 2006, 12:52 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
Thank you for an intelligent contribution. I absolutely agree that fighting for less unwanted pregnancies is something worth fighting for. That is exactly why I couple irresponsibility with abortion. Personal responsibility for both sexes begins before they have sex, let alone before they get pregnant. We understand personal responsibility when it comes to STDs and AIDS, well most of us do I hope, but for some reason we throw personal responsibility out the window when it comes to pregnancy.
Feb. 22, 2006, 6:48 a.m. CST
by Col. Klink
The fact that you have 'degrees' of which type of life is worth saving, and which type isn't, shows what a hypocritical half-wit you are. Stop obsessing about how strangers handle their pregnancies and worry about your own mundane existence. Oh, and be sure to add more profanity to your next rambling response. It makes you look like quite the intellectual!
Feb. 22, 2006, 11:57 a.m. CST
What part of 'thanks for your apology' do you not understand? Way to read into things. And I'm still waiting for pro-lifers to tell me why they worry about the unborn when living children are dying in record numbers?
Feb. 22, 2006, 12:51 p.m. CST
... I try to counter it with the adoption. There are millions of willing parents out there who are aching for a child. Why can't we have a national system in place to pair up adoptive parents with pregnant women who don't want to raise the child? Medical costs could be paid for by a combination of the parents (or their insurance plan) and the government. Ooooooor... we can go the other route. We can put contraceptives in the water, sterilizing the populace, and people would have to actually plan their parenthood in a proactive manner instead of a reactive manner. ... think I read a book about that once... hmmmm....... Anyway, killing babies is wrong, m'kay? Children are a consequence of sexual activity, and if you're unwilling to go through the pain of childbirth or the financial strain of parenthood, then avoid the sexual activity altogether or double protect yourself from the possibility of conception. Keep abortions possible and legal for rape and incest and medical (not mental) health reasons, of course, but abortions should be as limited as possible and should never be a "choice." Women have all the rights that men do in our legal system (and rightly so), but nature has determined that women provide the means of helping a child develop and enter this world. Nature has determined that sexual activity leads to reproduction. The choice is made when the woman engages in the sexual activity. So in that sense I am VERY pro-choice. Choose whether or not to have sex. If you have sex, you might have a kid. If you don't, then it's vacations and cars for a lifetime. Ask yourselves this question... why do we need to protect people from the consequences of their actions?
Feb. 22, 2006, 1:54 p.m. CST
I really liked EJ's proposal. Provide free and easy contraception for those too poor or lazy to obtain it for themselves and raise adoption to hero status in this country. Problem solved. The irresponsible can have all the reckless sex they desire (YESSS!!!) and innocent babies can live with families who want nothing more than a child. You guys *do* know that the demand for healthy children far exceeds the supply and that many infertile parents go to China, Africa or Russia looking for babies, right? And hey Oisin, "Living children are dying in record numbers?" Um, where? Seems I might have heard about that on the news. If you're talking about the propaganda spread by the poverty lobby, don't believe the hype. My wife teaches in an inner city school and while many of the parents drive pimped out rides to drop off their kids, they file for free breakfasts and lunches that we pay for. Nobody starves in this country unless they are a victim of criminal parental neglect. And believe me, on the occasions that this is the case, any prolifer will get pretty damn worked up about it. Any decent person would, for that matter. (Have to point out here that the "fascistic" churches some on here paint as leading the new reich feed the disadvantaged and ask for nothing in return. Talk about no good deed going unpunished!) Meanwhile, there are millions of abortions in the US a year and what about those casualties isn't "living?"
Feb. 22, 2006, 2:33 p.m. CST
From Bush's own Children's Defense Fund (Leave No Child Behind): In 2004, 13 million American children younger than 18 lived below the poverty line and more than one out of every six American children (17.8 percent) was poor. That is more children living in poverty today than 38 years ago. A child in America is more likely to live in poverty than a child in any of the 18 other wealthy industrialized nations for which data exist. Each year, more than 2 million children die all over the world as a result of vaccine-preventable diseases (United Nations, www.un.org). Approximately 34,000 of the world
Feb. 22, 2006, 3:14 p.m. CST
Anybody here who thinks we need more laws to protect us from ourselves...go read it. Let's see now...we have drug laws, gun control laws, seat belt laws, smoking bans, prostitution laws, radio and TV censorship, laws against suicide...why the fuck don't they just put us all into a padded room at birth? Murder, assault and stealing are the only ways anyone can really hurt you. Anything else is you failing to take responsibility for your own situation. Those who want to legislate away the "corruption of society" should move to Communist country, or some place that doesn't have a founding document that was designed to allow non-Puritan thinking to thrive. You want freedom? Suck it up, you pansies. You cop-loving, Bush-voting, insurance-buying pussies.
Feb. 22, 2006, 3:30 p.m. CST
There are fanatics on both sides of the issue. Those that think that abortion should be allowed even in the third trimester and those that think abortion is wrong even when the woman's life is in danger. I don't think we can have civil discussion about the issue unless we argue the moderate points of views, which is what I think most people on this forum are in the mindset of (as well as most of America).
Feb. 22, 2006, 3:38 p.m. CST
Way to totally miss my point. My only assertion was that American children are not starving in the streets. You said "children are dying in record numbers." If you meant American children, that is a lie, and thus the propaganda I spoke of. My anecdotal example was for your amusement and nothing more. Worldwide poverty is a completely different ball of wax and a very, very serious problem. So, thanks for projecting your hate of what you suspect some people believe onto me. If you want to talk numbers I can do that as well. You say two million die of starvation globally per year? Many more die in abortion annually in the United States alone. Maybe ten times as many. But, oh I forgot, caring about that makes one a whacko, religious, conservative insurance buyer. So, that's got to be wrong. Eh, it's not worth continuing. All the answers to your other wild eyed assertions are in my previous posts.
Feb. 22, 2006, 3:43 p.m. CST
Here's my attempt at trying to find some middle ground. An abortion should never, ever be denied if a woman's life is in danger. I'm sure somebody will find a way to call me a drooling mouth breather over this, but there it is.
Feb. 22, 2006, 4:36 p.m. CST
I never cared much for the abortion debate because I don't want to side with religious people. I don't trust people who blindly accept things as fact, when they could never possibly prove them. But the pro-abortion crowd acts so much like the religious crowd typically acts, on this issue. It's as if they know, for CERTAIN, that it's not a life until it can support itself (this actually means around 8 years old in certain cultures, 28 in others). I'm against abortion, not because I care about those babies, but because I'm against hypocracy and illogic. If you don't know for sure when life begins (and NOBODY does) then you must err on the side of caution. Maybe that child will end up growing up in a horrible family and will never have a chance. But that's not the issue here. If it were, half this country would be for the routine euthunaisa of healthy two year olds. This is about whether a person has the right to take away the life of another. BSG left that out of the episode and just turned it into another, we must curtail civil liberties episode (L.A. writers can't perceive the issue any other way). For the anti-abortion folks, making it illegal is an attempt to restore civil liberties, to those children who've had them taken away. I found the episode somewhat ironic, because most of the drive to legalize abortion came from people whose primary concern was overpopulation. And even some of you pro-abortion talkbackers remarked that it should be illegal in a situation where you need to repopulate the species. Your side argues practicality and our side argues idealistically. Most practical solutions are transient at best. A band-aid until we can reach our idealistic goals. But, I believe we should always, at least, aim for our ideals. Bush, on the other hand, can go suck it! You liberals should love him for how he's expanded government so much.
Feb. 22, 2006, 6:39 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
...and thank you for joining in the debate. I'd like to address Oisin's accusation that anti-abortion people don't want to help people. Let's see, the first people on the ground at Katrina were church people, blankets, food, water. Church people give more money to charity than anyone else. Church people also go to the impoverished countries and feed and medicate people with their own hands. Church people set up halfway houses for women who don't want abortions but are in bad situations. Church people help facilitate adoptions all over the country, one of my brothers was adopted in this manner. Do I need to go on? There are probably a million other examples of what good religious people do for others. I am not religious myself, but I have personally been to poor parts of Mexico, not to party, but to help build homes and feed poor people. So Oisin, please tell us what good things you have done that compare to the MASSIVE amounts of good deeds that are done by anti-abortion people every day. I suspect you haven't done a thing, but please prove me wrong.
Feb. 22, 2006, 10:08 p.m. CST
so doing good deeds earns the right to tell perfect strangers that they can't abort....fascinating.
Feb. 22, 2006, 11:40 p.m. CST
by Col. Klink
Because the lawn gnome they worship says so. And you better obey their lawn gnome cuz he's King of the Universe!
Feb. 22, 2006, 11:59 p.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
You guys aren't even trying anymore.
Feb. 23, 2006, 12:58 a.m. CST
by Col. Klink
Bow out gracefully.
Feb. 23, 2006, 3:56 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
.....how about you attempt to put together a coherent pro-abortion argument instead of acting like an attention starved moron. Seriously, show us you can argue the issue with a tiny degree of intelligence.
Feb. 23, 2006, 4:03 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
Can you possibly put more words in my mouth there Voodoo? I never said or implied anything of the sort, but even if I did, what would give you the right to question my telling perfect strangers they shouldn't have abortions? Just as you and Klink have the right to act like idiots and add nothing to the conversation, I have the right to express my opinion on abortion. It's called Freedom of Speech, ain't the Bill of Rights a bitch when it works against you?
Feb. 23, 2006, 12:16 p.m. CST
by Col. Klink
...when the zealots resort to name calling. God grant them the serenity to accept things like abortion that they can not change...
Feb. 23, 2006, 12:26 p.m. CST
I'm talking about the Pro-Life movement and its ideology. Individual people who may happen to be anti-abortion might be very good people who help others. But the ideology of the pro-life movement is violent, overly- religious and intolerant and, yes, whacko. I know plenty of religious people who aren't interested in waging a campaign against abortion and bothering people who are trying to live their own lives. And I'm sorry, but you can't compare numbers of abortions to numbers of living children. Obviously, people disagree about fetuses being children and they are obviously unwanted. But you cannot argue that the starving, poor child is fully human. You just can't convince me that the pro-life movement is not the epitome of religious hypocrisy. It's just some vague cause that somehow makes you feel superior and feel better about yourself. And you know what good things I'm doing? I'm raising my daughter the best way I know how and will teach her not to be an intolerant fuckwad who shoves her beliefs down people's throats.
Feb. 23, 2006, 12:27 p.m. CST
Have fun in South Dakota!
Feb. 23, 2006, 5:31 p.m. CST
Yes osin, there are many of those hypocritical, hate-filled religious types who play the abortion debate like it's a football game. But most people who are anti-abortion aren't those types of people. As with any issue, the media focuses on the loud-mouths. I live in Colorado, bout 10 minutes away from the Focus on the Family headquarters. So I'm in regular contact with the relgious anti-abortion folk in this town. For the most part, they are very reasonable people. But I think my father, who is very liberal understands this issue best. I think he's pro-abortion, but he always argues for legalizing it as a way to prevent the republicans from ever getting elected again. Almost everyone I met who voted for Bush, did so over this one issue. I'd point out a million different ways how Bush isn't a conservative, they'd agree but reluctantly come back to the abortion issue. They don't believe in telling others what to do (they're hunters and always have people telling them what to do), but they see abortion as murder and will always back the side who "claims" to be anti-abortion. Bush and the Republicans are in power for one reason alone. Pro-abortion liberals. As a conservative, I'd like to see the issue off the table so that the big government Bush's of the world won't have a chance. But the neocon types will make sure it'll never be legalized because they know where all their support comes from. Again, abortion isn't a huge issue for me, there are much more serious issues in this country right now, I just don't understand arguments in favor of it. When does life begin? Does anyone have a definite answer on this?
Feb. 24, 2006, 12:05 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
I'm glad you are trying to be a good father or mother Oisin, and I commend you for it. I hope you weren't referring to me as an itolerant shoving fuckwad though. I didn't start this conversation, Ron Moore did, and none of us would be talking about abortion right now if it weren't for BSG. I've never stood in front of a clinic with a sign, and I've never tried to force my beliefs on anyone who wasn't willing to force their own beliefs on me. Unlike the current thread troll, I try to debate this issue with logic and more than a little respect for my counterparts.
Feb. 24, 2006, 12:16 a.m. CST
by Hairy Nutsack
They say to never feed a troll, and I'm afraid I got sucked into it. My apologies to everyone in the thread for not resisting the temptaion. As for you Klink, claiming you won an argument because I've been calling you names when you've been calling people names and spewing intolerance towards religious people throughout the thread is hypocritical beyond words. I'm done responding to you, it is more than a waste of my time. Thanks for the laughs, and keep trying to kiss Voodoo's ass, I'm sure he/she will respond to you any minute now so you can get your joygasm. Inside Klink's head- "Yay someone paid attention to me, I must be special like my Mommy always said I was." Yeah you're real special, orange helmet special.