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Orson Scott Card Sneaks A Little More ENDER'S Info!!

Hi, everyone. "Moriarty" here with some Rumblings From The Lab...

This is one of those projects that’s been bounced around for years and years now, and I can see the appeal. There’s a great film waiting to be made just as soon as someone cracks it, and it sounds like they’re getting closer. Check it out:

Hey Harry,

I sat in on an Orson Scott Card lecture this evening at the University of Missouri in Columbia. While he spent most of the lecture speaking on his theory that the stories passed down through generations has shaped our culture - which was interesting, he did manage to talk a lot about the status of the Ender's Game movie.

Apparently the studio option on the book runs out on December 7th and he has, what I would characterize as, a moderate hope that the movie will become a reality. He plans to sit down with Wolfgang Peterson after he squares away the Posideon Adventure and give his latest script idea, which he described as a combination of Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, one final try. He said that if the deadline comes and goes then he will most likely end the attempt to bring the book to the big screen. Card was hopeful that the combination of the two books will work out the script problems in that the "buddy" movie approach would open up a practical way to reveal Ender's thoughts without any dreaded internal dialouge.

He sincierly seemed commited to coming up with a script that remained faithful to the original material - even if he doesn't write the script personally. Card said that the special effects would be revolutionary, ruling out wires or the Apollo 13 diving airplane technique, and that effects houses are lining up to get involved should the movie recieve the green light.

He also said that he would deny everything that he said tonight (and he will probably will) so if you feel better about waiting on this news until the deadline or if you want to run with it it is your perogative. Either way I don't mind and the info is now yours.

Love your site!!

The Big 3

I’m going to be interviewing Wolfgang Petersen very soon, so I’ll make sure to ask him about this at that point.

"Moriarty" out.

Readers Talkback
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  • Oct. 7, 2005, 9:11 p.m. CST

    ha ha! first

    by kate Moss

    I rock, dont do drugs

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 9:12 p.m. CST

    Well, we can always hope...

    by swinky

    I am a big fan of Mr. Card and his books. This one may be a bit TOO ambitious for the masses though...

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 9:21 p.m. CST

    Stupid stupid idea.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    I REALLY liked the idea of having Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow filmed side-by-side and then releasing them a year apart. Now we're getting one movie with a "buddy movie"-like format?!?!?!? Ender was no one's "buddy" and Bean is barely human emotionally. Dear god in heaven, we're going to get fart jokes in an Ender movie.

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 9:47 p.m. CST

    Maybe the buddy can be...

    by Phloton

    ...a black, effeminate robot, voiced by Robin Williams. The simple truth is, Hollywood can't do this book. Not the one the fans know and love. It's like The Watchmen. It can't be done in a 2 hour studio film. Maybe an HBO miniseries if it's helmed by someone who cares. But a studio can't sell Ender merchandise at Taco Bell.

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 9:48 p.m. CST

    I don't know

    by ciardi

    But with an unbalanced but charismatic Ender as xenocide and a diminutive but grizzled Bean repeating "I'm getting too old for this," the whole buddy thing could work.

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 9:51 p.m. CST

    Is this the same Orson Scott Card who is a bigot?

    by snowpuff

    The one who is an outspoken homophobe? I stopped reading Card after realizing that he lives up to few of the ideals preached about in his books...

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 9:54 p.m. CST

    Orsen!!!!!! MINI SERIES!!!

    by Russman

    HBO. INTERNATIONAL FUNDING AND CASTING. Don't compromise your vision.

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 10:04 p.m. CST

    Maybe SciFi

    by Gorrister

    I like the miniseries idea better than a motion picture. SciFi Channel may pick it up if offered. I mean, these guys make crap like "Man with the Screaming Brain" (sorry Bruce...I still love you!), "Bugs" and "Raptor Island" why not "Ender's Game"? I love the works of Orson Scott Card for the most part. I think the Ender series kinda fizzled after "Speaker for the Dead", but I'm a big fan of his short stories, especially "Unaccompanied Sonata".

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 10:10 p.m. CST

    One Last Thought

    by Gorrister

    I find it off that Card is a Mormon (a religion that frowns upon R rated movies). If Cards books "Ender's Game" and especially "Ender's Shadow" were made into movies that were TRUE adaptations, they would be rated NC-17 at best. Many scenes of kids murdering kids (thinking especially of the deaths of Bonzo and Pook), 10-year old Petra hanging around the barracks naked half the time, and many other such scenes that are in the novels.

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 10:15 p.m. CST

    This movie will never be made

    by jimmy_009

    Card has been trying for years. I just don't see it happening.

  • Very, VERY rare for a sequel to surpass the original, but that's what Card pulled off with Speaker. Here's hoping we get a whole trilogy of Ender movies.

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 10:24 p.m. CST

    This movie needs to be Anime

    by Scopa

    seriously. This story would be great as an animated series ala Seikai no Monshou (Crest of the Stars) CotS was based on a popular sci-fi book in japan, and the anime is really top notch. Having Enders game as an anime series would also ensure that the entire story gets told. (a 26 episode season = roughly 8.5 hours)

  • My opinion of Card was also damaged when I found out what about his social views...sadly, the guy is a Mormon, and with that comes some pretty harsh views on society and culture. I guess we can throw Card up there with artists like Richard Wagner. Socially repugnant, yet their work is still great. Odd dichotomy.

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 10:27 p.m. CST

    Scopa is RIGHT

    by Strabo

    Damn...this WOULD work really well as an anime, or at least as a seriously made animation (Dreamworks?)...

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 10:47 p.m. CST

    Card really love Serenity, by the way

    by kwerky

    Said that this was the high quality of sci-fi movie that he hopes Ender's Game is turned into.

  • I mean seriously, he promised to do EG after Troy, but now he's got like 5 movies scheduled before it. It's bullshit, find a director, someone who's as passionate as Orson is for his story.

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 11:22 p.m. CST

    I'd love to see EG on the big screen...

    by Animus

    ...but we all know that it wont nearly be half as good as the novels.. not in 1 movie at least... maybe a trilogy?

  • Oct. 7, 2005, 11:44 p.m. CST


    by Evil Chicken

    BTW, Great books although they probably wouldn

  • Not to diss OSC...he writes some great shit. But THE best, most intelligent novels involving intersteller warfare are these two (hopefully to one day be a Trilogy) by Greg Bear. THESE BOOKS NEED TO BE MADE INTO MOVIES god dammnit!

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:27 a.m. CST

    Ummm Snowpuff.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    Crikey Snowpuff WTF? Perhaps someone could post an article that is written by someone who isn't a crazed liberal communist lesbian about Card's supposed homophobia? All that article proved was that the author is a stark, raving lunatic that sat down to do an interview with Card with an extreme agenda. Nothing in there says homophobe to me, just opposition to homosexuality. Not the same thing at all.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:27 a.m. CST

    snowpuff: you're a turd

    by Tacodave

    A bigot is someone who is (from the dictionary): "strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ." Every human on the face of the planet is partial to their own group/religion. If you're a Christian, you think Muslims are wrong and vice versa. And Card isn't intolerant at all. What you liberal kool-aid drinkers need to get through your heads is this: just because we think homosexuality is a sin, doesn't mean we are intolerant of homosexuals. I don't want you humping a guy in front of me, but if you want to do it in your own house, feel free. Just don't try to push your social agenda on me. YOU are intolerant of Christians.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:28 a.m. CST

    As much as I like Ender's Game

    by koosbane

    I would rather see W. Michael Gear's "Forbidden Borders" Trilogy. And while I enjoyed "Ender's Shadow", I would prefer they just made "Ender's Game" solo.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:32 a.m. CST

    Cards Religion?

    by TesticleTom

    The only bigotry I see above is judging the guy based on his religion. Way to be hypocrites, talkbackers.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:43 a.m. CST

    Oh please Tom, STFU.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    No bigotry in the above posts even if Mormons deserve it.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:46 a.m. CST

    Salon Article

    by TesticleTom

    Read the Salon article supposedly proving Card is a bigot. I agree with everything he said, so I guess I'm a bigot too. The interviewer of that article should be shot for being such an extremist close minded hippy.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:51 a.m. CST

    by TesticleTom

    Hairy.... Mormons deserve it? Could you possibly be a more generalizing, hate-filled, fascist pig? Anyone that can make a blanket negative statement about millions of people like that IS, in fact, a bigot.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:21 a.m. CST

    Yeah, I'm the hate filled one, LMFAO....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    Generalizing? No I'm being quite specific, I'm talking about Mormons specifically not generally. Hate-filled? Nope, I love Mormons, they are funny as fuck, especially their magic underwear. Fascist? You don't even know the meaning of the word fascist, it cannot be applied in this situation, try again. ***** What's your problem? been reading from the Golden Plates yourself there Tom? Tell us all about Mormom archaeologists proving that the fictitious people in the BOM are the Aztecs, Incas, and Mayans. Come on, I dare ya, tell us it's true. LMFAO

  • is a cult."- Angels in America. That being said, I've been waiting for an Ender's game movie for 15 years now, and I'm utterly convinced it's never going to happen. When Episode I came out, Card said they were on the verge of signing Jake Lloyd to play Ender. (shudder) And will you people frigging stop with the "turn it into a mini-series" mantra? When was the last decent sci-fi mini-series? I'LL TELL YOU! TWENTY FUCKING YEARS AGO WITH V! (and V-the Final Battle) Give it up! It's never going to happen! The anime idea is pretty cool though. I wish they would have done that with Dune. Instead we got 5 hours of "no, really. I'm in the desert, not in front of a sheet with a picture of a sand dune painted on it. I swear."

  • Sorry

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:33 a.m. CST

    Card is a right-wing extremist

    by Jerri Blank

    I've said it before and I'll say it again...I live in the same town as this butthole. He writes a weekly column for a local far right rag and it is astounding to read the crap that he believes. I have conservative friends that think he's a nutjob. The guy is totally loony and the main reason that this film has been in gestation so long is because no one in Hollywood wants to climb into bed with his ass. The amount of hate that spews forth from this freak is mind-boggling. He hates gays with a passion (Have you ever met or seen him?ISSUES!!!!!!!) Orson Scott Card is a crappy writer with an ugly wife and ugly kids and he can take his love of this shithole Bush administration and he can shove it all the way up his right-wing George Bush lovin' ass. Oh, and I'm glad his ugly retarded kid died.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:34 a.m. CST

    by studio planter

    homo's are cool.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:36 a.m. CST

    he may be a right wing extremist

    by studio planter

    but his books are awesome

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:39 a.m. CST

    FX houses line up for ANY movie that gets green lit....

    by captain_sulu

    And despite the fact that Ender's Game was good (Speaker sucked), I'm pretty sure this project isn't getting any sort of "special" attention. Especially since it's questionable it'll get made to begin with, on top of script problems. Nice try though Orson.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 2:05 a.m. CST

    Jerri Blank that is totally low.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    Blank attack the man, his beliefs, his books, his politics, but leave his wife and kids out of this. WTF is wrong with you? That is beyond fucking wrong.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 2:09 a.m. CST

    Card is hilarious writing Iron Man

    by vacuous tart

    Marvel hired him to do the origin for Ultimate Iron Man, which it turns out is exactly the same as Ender's origin, with different names. Anyway somewhere around the third issue he suddenly dumps like a half-dozen black kids into the story for some reason, which means he has to try to write black-people dialogue. Comedy fucking gold. It takes like 6 pages before you literally have a watermelon joke while they're sitting at the fried chicken drive-through window.

  • I haven't read Enders Shadow yet, but I believe that, in Shadow, the main character actually knows that Ender is fighting an honest-to-God Real War, instead of just training as he thinks he is. Am I right about this? The main character in Shadow (whoever he is, I forgot) does know that they are fighting a war while Ender doesn't? If not, anyway, I think it'd be a more suspensefull script if the audience knew more than Ender did. Otherwise, you just got another end twist movie. And we have enough of those. Oh, BTW, this whole post and title contained spoilers. Oops.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 4:33 a.m. CST

    Oh, he's a bigot.

    by Prankster

    Make no mistake. Go to and read some of his political columns, including the one that's currently up, about "Freakonomics"--like Bill Bennett, he uses it to draw fairly horrifying conclusions that serve his own agenda. He has a vile, homophobic essay somewhere in there too--the one that began the "rumours floating around the internet" that he's homophobic which he references in that interview. He basically thinks gays are "destroying society" in some vague, poorly-defined way, and that marriage is what he says it is, so gays trying to get married are crazy propagandists. Also, the people attacking Bush post-Katrina are hateful opportunists, because there was nothing Bush could have done! He spouts hateful, repetitive blather as fact and rarely cites references. He's very much in the mode of Ann Coulter and the gang at Fox News (whom he praises as "truly fair and balanced", as if no one had heard their slogan before) and it has nothing to do with him being a Mormon, he's just a dickhead. It's a shame that a guy who wrote so many good books on tolerance doesn't believe it in real life. Oh, and read some of his reviews for a real laugh. He called "Diary of a Mad Black Woman" one of the best films of the year, and in the current write-up of Serenity he closes by (unironically) expressing his desire for a "Full House" movie.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 4:44 a.m. CST

    Bigot and homophobe.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    I will read the articles Prankster, and thank you for the links, my only problem and concern is that people throw around words like bigot, racist, fascist, and homophobe around WAY too much. People can disagree and be strongly against differing groups of people and not fall into any of those categories. I don't believe in gay marriage myself, but I am perfectly okay with gay civil unions. The definition of the word 'marriage' does also matter to fair-minded reasonable people. Just as we call our sexualities something different, so too should we call our unions something different. Some would say they are just labels so what's the big deal, well to that I would say simply that you will get your ass kicked if you called a black or latino man a white man. We use these labels to importantly define who and what we are and they absolutely matter!

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:32 a.m. CST


    by fitzcarraldo2

    I found EG rather dull. Wake me up when they film The Forever War by Joe Haldeman.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 9:12 a.m. CST

    "It's a shame that a guy who wrote so many good books on tol

    by ZombieSolutions

    I agree. But, you know how it is with these so called "christian" (or relgious) folks. "Tolerance" for them means 1) we're right and you're wrong and 2) believe in our ways or else we'll socially ostricize, abuse, and kill you. They are the enemy, and humanity has to evolve past their hateful lies and psychotic fairy tales if we are to survive.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:47 p.m. CST


    by SamVimes

    Hey, I'm Mormon, enjoy Cards books, and totally disagree with most, if not all, of his politics. Mormons, like everybody else, disagree on pretty much anything.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 12:49 p.m. CST

    Oh yes,

    by SamVimes

    And a Forever War movie would be awesome, in addition to never happening.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:34 p.m. CST

    Zombie that's ridiculous.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    Disagree with religious people's views all you want, I certainly do, but calling them the enemy is ridiculously over the top. Faith based groups are the first people to help out in any crisis. The first people on the ground during Katrina were faith based groups, and most of the volunteer work was done during Katrina were people of faith. The VAST majority of people in general claim to have some faith or other, they are not the enemy whether right or wrong.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:37 p.m. CST


    by Tacodave

    Your post shows just how intolerant YOU are. You lump all "christian" (or religious) folks into the same pile and say we are the enemy. Way to be accepting! ... The real truth is that liberals preach about tolerance all day, but only if the tolerance isn't shown towards religious people. We don't get tolerance at all, we just get labelled as bigots. Nice system.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:39 p.m. CST

    Jerri Blank

    by Tacodave

    I bet you think you're funny talking about Card's retarded kid dying. But you know what? Nobody else does and if you keep it up, there will be nobody to mourn YOUR death when you pass on. You probably don't care, of course, but when you're dead and face to face with God, don't say nobody tried to warn you.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 1:49 p.m. CST

    Tolerance only goes so far.

    by Cameron1

    I find it hilarious that people argue "you should be tolerant of my intolerance" Doesn't work that way I'm afraid. We are not tolerant of criminals because they harm society, we are not tolerant of homophobes or racists or sexists because they too harm society.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 2:22 p.m. CST

    About Bill Bennet

    by Immortal_Fish

    Bill Bennet was drawing a willfully preposterous analogy to dispute his caller's own rediculous idea. And as soon as he said it, he dismissed his own words as unimaginable. To claim Bennet rascist is to propagate a half truth of urban legend proportion. Wrap your head around the rest of the story first. But don't believeme. Transcripts ARE available. Above all else, I find it amusing how you liberals think of fetuses as babies only when it grants you the chance to bash a conservative. What if every black woman out there exercized "her right to choose"? What then?

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 2:50 p.m. CST


    by Tacodave

    You say that "homophobes" harm society, and I assume you include Card and perhaps me as homophobes. But I would argue that people who push a pro-homosexual agenda really harm society. Who judges which one of us is right? You can't have tolerance without knowing what to tolerate, and you can't agree on what is worth tolerating if you have different worldviews.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 2:52 p.m. CST

    Hell Yeah I'm Intolerant Of Right Wing Christianity!

    by ZombieSolutions

    the same way i am of neo-nazism, racism, homophoba et al. see, because these foul belief systems are CHOICES. people make a concious choice to be racist homophibic bigots. race and sexual orientation, on the other hand, are not choices -- people are born a particular race or particular gender or sexual orientation. if you believe in god -- well your god created these people the same way he created you. righ wing christians say "god hates fags?" well fuck that! you've made a choice to be hatemonger against innocent people who have done you no wrong. so, my intolerance of your ritualized hatred and bigotry towards the innocent and defenseless is justified. hell it's not only justifed, it's necessary. you are the enemy of civilization, not homosexuals. moreover, you've made a choice to stand on the side of hatred and darkness; either deal with it and own up to your radically distored views or wake up and come back to the light. your choice.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 2:58 p.m. CST

    Hatemongering Radical Right Wing Christians Are The True Enemies

    by ZombieSolutions

    i see no difference between your poison and that of Al-Queda or the Nazis. you are sick twisted and evil. the mythological / cartoonish fires of hell you are so afraird of are your birthright, your bed, your pillow filled with nails. deal with it, or change your ways. also: you really neat some sex. oh, and not with children like your wacko vampire priests are so into. good luck, god bless, WWJD, and amen.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 3:08 p.m. CST


    by MrCere

    If you take the word "Mormon" out of most of these posts and replace it with "Jew" or "African-American/Black" or whatever else people are socially sensative to it would put an interesting twist on things.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 3:23 p.m. CST

    the "Salon" article

    by Boris Grushenko

    I am not a fan of Card's books (dislike science fiction), but I am a fan of Card himself. I really enjoy reading his various articles at his website because he has strong, usually well-reasoned, opinions. I probably disagree with his opinions more than I agree, but that is part of the reason I enjoy reading him. He makes me think about my own opinions. (And you can disagree with an opinion and still acknowledge that it is well-reasoned... I've heard friends give poetic, well-reasoned defenses of Fight Club, but I still think it is shit... I enjoyed the Salon reporter's well-reasoned comments regarding Ender's Game, but I still find it boring.) In any case, I followed the link to the Salon article expecting to read some scathing diatribe by Card. That's it? All I saw was a guy expressing his opinion. The reporter is the one who should be catigated hear. How does that woman call herself a journalist? Instead of just disagreeing with Card, she attacks him relentlessly. She was condescending and even vulgar. There was also a strange disconnect between her opinion of what Card said, and what Card actually said. Her commentary seemed to be cut and pasted from another interview into this one. Just a poorly written, amateur article. Have an opinion, a strong opinion if you like, but don't attack the guy. Nowhere did I see an attack from Card with regards to homosexuals or any other group. That he has strong opinions about the morality of homosexuality and their right to marriage was patently obvious, but it wasn't an attack on the people. There is a world of difference. And for the record, I strongly disagree with Card and the Mormon Church on homosexuality, but I am respectful of their opinion. But why attack someone for their opinion? Debate them. Reason with them. And take your opinion to the ballot box. By the way, I am a liberal, pro-choice, pro-homosexual-marriage Mormon.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 4:15 p.m. CST

    Being Mormon (Like Being A Member of Any Religion) Is A CHOICE,

    by ZombieSolutions

    to restate -- criticizing a belief system (which is chosen of ones own free will) is not racist or bigoted and therefore is not morally wrong. mormonism, then, is a belief system, not a race, gender, or sexual orienation and therefore is wide-open to criticism. get the difference? you can disagree with a belief system, you can't disagree with something someone has no control over such as skin color or gender. get it? next.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 4:57 p.m. CST


    by Cameron1

    Do you spit at gay in the street? Fund, magazines which promote violence agsinst them? Write to your reperesentatives about Gay Marriage? Go queer bashing? Cus if you do your fucking scum and you are destroying society. If you just don't like them your not destroying society, but imagine saying you just plain don't like Black people, that's a sick statement to make and anyone who makes it has a serious problem. Same for gays.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:29 p.m. CST


    by Hairy Nutsack

    How Zombie can be expected to be taken seriously with bullshit posts like the above is beyond me. As for criticizing belief systems, the same could be said about homosexuals. As hard as they've tried, they have not produced one tiny shred of proof that there is a gay gene and yet we are all force fed this tidbit as if it were a fact. Well here's the truth, the very fact that we can argue if there is or is not a gay gene at all proves that there is no proof. People want to believe in a gay gene just as strongly as other people believe being gay is sinful. What we have are differing opinions and beliefs, and there is plenty of room in the world for both. Go scream about how they treat gays in the Middle East Zombie, at least here we can at least discuss the possibility of gay unions, over there they murder gays without mercy. Intolerance that leads to actions like the Islama-wacks commit on their own people is all kinds of wrong, but intolerance that gets people to think and discuss and possibly to change and move the world is a good thing. Stop hate mongering Zombie, you're just as bad as any KKK asshole.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:32 p.m. CST

    Love the liberal handwringers.

    by Shaner Jedi

    Fucking hypocrites! If every SF author lived up to their ideals they'd be living in utopian societies you fucking leftist loons. Grow up, get real, and shut the fuck up.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:36 p.m. CST

    mad world

    by daroe

    just about everything that is wrong in the world can be traced to the prevalence of the judeo/christain/islamist myth system. In my fondest of most beautiful dreams all trace of these destructive psychotic fanatsies are wiped from the collective memory of the world.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:37 p.m. CST

    Shaner Jedi, everyone,...

    by Cameron1

    the best reason why 14 yr olds shouldn't have the internet in their bedrooms.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:39 p.m. CST

    Why I Hope Enders Game Is Not Made Into a Movie

    by Gorrister

    I completely admit that my reasons for hoping Ender's Game/Shadow is never made into a movie is 150% selfish. I have, for years, been a fan of stories that are less-known and underappreciated. Stories that I can discuss with another fan and anyone around us doesn't have a clue what we are talking about. Take "Lord of the Rings", for example. Until the movies came out (despite how successful the books have been) finding someone who had actually READ the books (without it being assigned in High School) was incredibly rare. It was always nice to find someone who had and discuss the books with them. Now, with the movies, most people have ONLY seen the movies and when you try to talk LOTR with them, they talk about the movie adaptation, not the books. They don't know who Tom Bombadin is, what the Battle of Five Armies is, or that Samwise, Legolas and Gimli eventually sailed to the Undying Lands decades after Frodo did. They also don't know that Faramir didn't keep Frodo captive long, that Frodo didn't send Samwise home before meeting Shelob, and various other things that Jackson threw in that weren't in the novels. It drives me nuts being only able to discuss the movie versions with people. Same thing goes for Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. I've been an Adams fan since 1980 and have read all his books. I guess I'm pretty obsessed with keeping things I love in the 'cult' status and hate to see them go mainstream. They feel more precious that way.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:41 p.m. CST


    by Gorrister

    I just realized I misspelled "Bombadil" in my post above. Feel free to flame me for that! I deserve it. LOL

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:44 p.m. CST

    Cameron 1 everyone.......

    by Shaner Jedi

    ...another intolerant, poseur left-winger. One on every corner.

  • And I'm a poseur how exactly? Oh I see I disagree with you so I must be a poseur, yes how very tolerant of you. Your point is?

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:49 p.m. CST


    by OBSD

    You are so wrong. As dated as it is, V still holds up (as much as anything with that much 80's hair can) both as a scary sci-fi action adveture and as a metaphor for the holocaust. It also serves as a warning that the media will instantly fold in the presence of anybody with a smidge of power, just to make sure their bread gets buttered. (not unlike what is going on with the media and the current administration today) I watch the entire two mini-series every few years and it still kicks the ass of any big-budget "aliens attack" movie made since then. (ID4, War Of The Worlds, I'm looking directly at you!) True, the subsequent ongoing series tried to be "Falcon Crest in space" and sucked, but the original material kicked ass and there's NO denying that. It broke the mold of sci-fi mini series and there hasn't been a decent one since.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:56 p.m. CST

    No, you're not intolerant because....

    by Shaner Jedi don't agree with me. You're intolerant because you and others brought this guys religion into the discussion and said he wasn't "living up to his ideals". Wake up! SF is about what people aspire to be, not what they are. That's why it's FICTION.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 5:59 p.m. CST


    by Cameron1

    you really are having trouble reading, aren't you? I haven't mentioned Card's religion once. Or anything about his ideals.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:02 p.m. CST


    by Cameron1

    I mentioned the word "poseur" to you, not "intolerant". Sheesh.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:13 p.m. CST


    by Tacodave

    Being gay IS a choice and you can't prove otherwise. You're one of the sheep who has bought into a scientific fact that has no evidence to back it up. .... Human evolution from monkeys, global warming caused by humans, the "gay" gene...these are all things you would quote as "facts" but they aren't facts, even by looking at them through the scientific method. So if there's no proof that homosexuals are 'born that way' or 'have no choice', then my opinion on the matter is just as valid as yours.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:14 p.m. CST


    by Tacodave

    I don't spit at gays, just as I don't spit at liars or gossips. I also don't fund ANY magazines, and have never written to a political representative. Like most Christians, I want to live my own life without nut jobs trying to "enlighten" me and my children with nonsensical garbage. My beliefs aren't hurting you, they aren't even effecting you in any way.

  • But I notice you say you don't spit at gossips and liars either, why group gays in to that negative association? You don't like gays? I don't really care asling as you don't try to treat them any differently then it's all good. But I gotta say all these things that you think "we" accept as facts, we actually accept as theories with lots and lots of evidence to back it warming and evolution that is. The gay gene thing? Who knows, but really that isn't the point. The point is they want to be gay and it doesn't harm anyone that's why I don't have a problem with it. Do anything where you harm someone I have a problem with. Now isn't that a sensible way to go about things? Live and let live unless something is threatening you.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:26 p.m. CST

    V - The Miniseries/Final Battle

    by Gorrister

    I'm a big fan of V as well. Even though the effects don't hold up, the storyline pretty much does. The only thing I absolutely hate about V is the "Starchild" storyline. Having that brat suddenly display supernatural powers by saving the planet from blowing up was Deus Ex Machina on a level that would make the ancient Greek playwriters crap their pants.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:31 p.m. CST


    by Shaner Jedi

    ...did you say there are limits to tolerance? You did. Yet, it was snowpuff, Jerri Blank, and Zombie Solutions who were the first ones out to criticize him for being Mormon and a "nutjob". Funny how you didn't mention their comments when talking about tolerance.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:33 p.m. CST

    And before I go for the day....

    by Cameron1

    Taco, what do you think the "homosexual agenda" is? To recruit or something? ALL they want is acceptance and to be treated equally. That's it. Now why would you have a problem with that?

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:37 p.m. CST


    by Cameron1

    Yeh there are limits to tolerance, but I didn't mention Card once. And you are right I didn't mention ZomSol's posts cus I didn't read them. You want me to say he's being intolerant then fine he is. And?

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:40 p.m. CST

    That's a lie...

    by Shaner Jedi

    ..they want to FORCE people to accept their lifestyle. Fuck that! And you must've missed the part where they've pushed different states to push for hate crimes based on sexuality. If they wanted "equality", they'd want to merely be a part of society as a whole. But, that's not what they want, hence "gay-pride" parades, "gay day" at Disneyland, specific laws against "hate crimes",etc. They time and time again try to set themselves apart.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:44 p.m. CST

    Oh man you got washed.

    by Cameron1

    See they NEED the laws on hate crimes becuase they sufffer from them! Jesus how can you be so silly not to realise that IF they were treated equally they wouldn't need the Hate Crime legislation, or the Gay Pride Parades. They want to be part of society as a whole but society as a whole HAS to treat them equally. And yes they want to FORCE people to accept the lifestyle, just like Black people wanted to FORCE white only places to let Blacks in. Because if you go round discriminating you are not treating someone fairly are you?

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:45 p.m. CST


    by Shaner Jedi

    "You want me to say he's being intolerant then fine he is. And?" See, that's what I mean by "poseur". You can say it, but you sure as hell don't mean it. I called you a poseur because you said there are limits to tolerance against homophobes, bigots, etc, in a thread that about 6 posts in had snowpuff calling him a bigot who "doesn't live up to his ideals". Well, duh! That's whay they're "ideals". They're something to strive for.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:46 p.m. CST

    Umm you are now trying to tell me what I believe

    by Cameron1

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:48 p.m. CST

    See I said he was being intolerant because he was.

    by Cameron1

    But somehow that's not good enough for you. And why, does me saying there are limits to tolerance make me a poseur? You haven't explained that at all.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:49 p.m. CST

    Gay rhetoric

    by Shaner Jedi

    Did you just mention treating blacks unfairly? Last time I read the history books there was a policy in the south of "forced segregation". Show me where gays suffer from that.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:50 p.m. CST

    Great post Gorrister

    by Juggernaut125

    I know exactly how you feel. Trying to have a conversation with someone that is only movie saavy, can get frustrating.

  • Because it's not.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:54 p.m. CST

    Flash Poll: Nutjobs from New England support......

    by Shaner Jedi

    ..separation from the British commonwealth. Only 30% agree with their position. Those American seperatists were a bunch of nutjobs. A society that shouts down homophobes, bigots, and racists, is just as bad as a society that shouts down social "justice", "equality", and "diversity". Who draws the line?

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:57 p.m. CST

    I sure don't want you to

    by Shaner Jedi

    draw that line. But you brought up segregation. Nice apples and oranges.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 6:58 p.m. CST

    Well no Shaner,

    by Cameron1

    because justice, equality and diversity all have elements of fairness and reason in what they mean. Homophobia, bigotry and racism are all negative traits because they all about judging people and ostracising them for be different. That's just common sense bud.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7 p.m. CST

    Apples and er..apples

    by Cameron1

    because you see getting rid of segregation was a means to an end, not the end itself. The end was Equality. Just what gays want.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:01 p.m. CST


    by Shaner Jedi

    so how are gays treated unfairly then? How is their "struggle" anything like what blacks went through? Where are the firehoses? Where are the segregated bathrooms? Where are the police dogs? Fuck, there were likely gay "slaveholders" in the southern plantation economy.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:03 p.m. CST


    by Shaner Jedi

    "because justice, equality and diversity all have elements of fairness and reason in what they mean." You don't get it. Defined by whom?

  • My point is that Gays are not treated fairly in society. Now most of the laws and legislation is in place for Gays to be treated fairly but there is a still a culture of homophobia that permeates through all stratas, just like there was a culture of ingrained racism. hell there STILL is ingrained racism in some places but it's crumbing fast thank god.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:06 p.m. CST


    by Shaner Jedi

    "My point is that Gays are not treated fairly in society" How so?

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:12 p.m. CST

    Well how about Queer bashing. People being Anti-Gay marriage.

    by Cameron1

    The abhorrent abuse they are subjected to. The stigma surrounding being Gay. Stereotypes. Discrimination.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:12 p.m. CST


    by Shaner Jedi

    "but there is a still a culture of homophobia that permeates through all stratas, just like there was a culture of ingrained racism." Different things. Racism doesn't = homophobia. What would you call a black civil rights leader who also preached against gays?

  • How dumb are you? LOL Pointless question though Shaner. Why would him being Black make a difference? And no racism doesn't = homophobia, but it's just as irrational and damaging.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:18 p.m. CST

    Black civil rights = gay civil rights?

    by Shaner Jedi

    "The abhorrent abuse they are subjected to. The stigma surrounding being Gay." Gay marriage....last I heard Massachusetts was going to allow it. Didn't see a big uprising there. I don't see how you could possible equate what was an economical institution(slavery), carried on for 400 years, and then state-enforced segregation, lynchings, voting denial, etc with gay "bashing". Not even close to the same thing.

  • That's it. That's your point? Well ok, but I was expecting more. Ah well. Nighty Night.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:22 p.m. CST

    Not pointless

    by Shaner Jedi

    You tried to equate the black civil rights movement with the gay agenda.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:27 p.m. CST

    Actually i

    by Cameron1

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:28 p.m. CST

    Actually I said all the both was Equality. That's it.

    by Cameron1

    Have fun with the last word though. ;

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:28 p.m. CST


    by Shaner Jedi

    ...obviously to the gay individual who is suffering from discrimination or especially abuse, it is severe. But to compare the whole societal and political institution of the slave trade, plantation economy, emancipation, segregation, is not as severe on the whole.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:30 p.m. CST

    Damn broken finger. "all they both wanted was Equality"

    by Cameron1

    is how it should read.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 7:30 p.m. CST

    But tell me...

    by Shaner Jedi do you hope to achieve this "equality"? Give me specifics. Tell me how you would achieve equality without doing the exact opposite.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 8:11 p.m. CST


    by Gorrister

    God, I can't believe I'm getting in on this conversation. lol. Oh well. I'll just say this and be done with it: There is no such thing as Equality. "All Men Are Created Equal" is wishful thinking. People who cry out for Equality in countries like the USA are really just saying "I want special treatment!". If things were truely equal, there wouldn't be things like Affirmative Action or Hate Crime Laws. How equal is it if I get a life sentence for killing a black man or a gay man compared to getting 20 years for killing a straight, white man? The white guy is just as dead as the other two and all three crimes deserve harsh punishment. (ok, I've ranted. Now I"m dropping out of this debate) ;-)

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 8:55 p.m. CST

    Good post Gorrister.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    Hate Crime legislation is absolute bullshit. First off, minorities are not prosecuted for hate crimes no matter the circumstance, and secondly we have a right to feel or think what we want about who we want. Yes racism and bigotry is WRONG but having the law prosecuting people for how they think and feel is one of the scariest slippery slopes to have ever been suggested and yet it is law somehow. Fucking retarded.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 8:58 p.m. CST

    I should have my head examined...

    by slapshot

    ... for getting into another one of these arguments. No, being gay is absolutely NOT a choice. I'm gay, always have been. Wasted untold years attempting to be straight, attempting to be attracted to women, attempting to be what I'm not. Can't. Don't. Doesn't work. I can look at, say, Sarah Michelle Gellar, and appreciate that she's a beautiful woman, but it doesn't do anything at all for me. Jake Gyllenhall? Matthew Fox? Nathan Fillion? They all do a LOT for me. The problem with people like Card or W. is that they each believe that their God is the real God, that their religion is the real, true religion, and that it is infallibly true all the time. They believe that homosexuality is a choice that's been made, and I know from personal experience that it ain't. They are unwilling to believe what anyone else says, because their bible has to be right on the gay issue, because if it's proven wrong on one single issue, then the entire text is suspect. Our very existence threatens their entire worldview, and we scare them.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 9:21 p.m. CST

    At the risk of causing a major flame war...

    by TonyWilson

    Goddamn Slapshot, that was fucking great. Very cool mate.

  • Oct. 8, 2005, 10:58 p.m. CST

    FUCK Christ, YOUR Lord

    by Jerri Blank


  • Oct. 9, 2005, 12:34 a.m. CST

    One of My Favorite Things

    by Anton_Sirius

    Pathetic brainwashed morons who assume everyone who disagrees with them is a "liberal". Because of course there are only two possible answers to any question.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 1:30 a.m. CST

    You know...

    by LeckoManiac

    I have read this entire thread...and I must say I am disappointed with both sides of the argument. I am not really going to say what my views are towards homosexuals and christianity and all of that jazz...I will see that both sides of this are being completely irrational "you're intolerant", "no you are"...I mean come on! The only intelligent post I have seen thus far was made by Boris Grushenko about a third of the way up...I am not even sure why I am posting this because someone will probably bash me and call me either a "stupid fag loving liberal" or " a stupid fag hating conservative" I mean are we all 15 here? Go to college, recieve a higher education and lets have a CIVIL debate, all of this bashing on both sides is going NOWHERE...also Card's work on Iron Man is sooo lame...and this movie won't be made...I think I might just have to check out Serenity just so I can jump in on this whole thang.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 2:05 a.m. CST

    Jerri Blank.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    First off your knowledge of Old Testament scripture is impressive, but it is absolutely irrelevant to Christianity in that Christians do not follow the Law of the Old Testament. The Law is said to be fulfilled by Christ's death and is therefore null and void now, well unless you're a Jew. Go argue with the Jews about all those verses you quoted, their the ones that still follow at least some of the Old Testament. ******* Back to choice. I can concede that people do not make conscious choices about being gay or not. That does not mean that there is a gay gene. It's the old nature vs. nurture argument and it is very valid. Since you don't believe in God Jerri you must believe in evolution. One of the very basic foundations of evolution is survival of the fittest, so how far would a species get if it were incapable of reproducing naturally? Evolution is not a living thinking thing, it is a biological process and therefore cannot take into account the artificial methods people can use to reproduce like the old turkey baster. Evolution is not going to create a dead end species, so where does that leave us then? Well there could be some sort of mutatative process at work, but no point in baseless speculation there. Nature is ruled out and that leaves nurture. I know it is unpopular to talk about this because of the very negative spin it can put on the whole debate, but the fact that so many gay people were molested or severely abused at a young age is alarming and should not be ignored. I don't know what your particular situation was Jerri, and I sincerely hope you were not molested or abused, but if you're intellectually honest at all you have to admit that there may be a link, unless you insist on clinging to the empty nature argument. We all have no problem understanding how seriously fucked up an adult gets after being raped, and yet many people pass over this important issue when talking about children. We know that our childhood shapes us into the person we become, and a childhood trauma has damaging effects that turn into all kinds of extreme lifestyles. Why is it people are afraid to even talk about this in regards to homosexuality? I mean what are people afraid of exactly? So back to my original statement, I agree that people may not make a conscious choice to be gay or not, but I strongly believe that many people make a sub-conscious choice as a means to deal with some sort of childhood trauma they simply have no capacity to understand or cope with.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 3:52 a.m. CST

    Here's another nice card link...

    by phelion2

    If you would like to know more about the whacky world of "the person or persons alledgedly known as" orson scott card: Card used to attend the local sci-fi Convention in Greensboro, NC, StellarCon, in the early 80's before becoming a house hold name. Now he won't touch the con with 10ft pole even though they have become one of the most repsected student-run conventions in Southeast, produced by the Science Fiction Fantasy Federation of UNC-Greensboro, for fear of alledgedlly offending the local church elders or some such as far as I have been told. Having worked in conventions and the film biz for ten years now, I know you often pay a terrible price for getting that access behind the velvet rope and finding out your favorite so-and-so is a so-and-so. The article linked above outlines that Card likely didn't even write most or any of his books, which seem to be a succession of sucker plays even put in the most positive terms. Anyhow, when it comes down to it, this ends up being a Joshua situation: Sometimes the only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 7:55 a.m. CST

    Dear Mr. or Mrs. Nutsack,

    by Jerri Blank

    No, I was not molested or abused when I was a child. I had a very happy Methodist upbringing in a small Southern town. My parents are still together so I

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 12:42 p.m. CST

    If they don't use wires or the airplane-diving technique...

    by DarthCorleone else are they going to do it? I'm very curious. I'm surprised the airplane-diving technique would even be an option, given that it would involve putting a bunch of prepubescent kids up in the "Vomit Comet."

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 1 p.m. CST


    by DarthCorleone

    I made that comment about the potential movie not realizing the firestorm that this talkback had become. For the record, I'm with Jerri Blank, Cameron1, etc. on the issue, but I'm not interested in participating in the argument at this time.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 1:24 p.m. CST


    by samsquanch

    you're an idiot.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 1:58 p.m. CST

    Thank you dstbro1.....

    by Hairy Nutsack

    I must be an idiot because dstbro1 said so......Thank you for the polite and intelligent response Jerri Blank.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 2:17 p.m. CST


    by samsquanch

    you're also crazy.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 2:57 p.m. CST


    by Hairy Nutsack

    Feel free to actually add something to the conversation.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 4:54 p.m. CST

    Jerri Blank

    by Manos

    Be not decieved, God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

  • Thats just not natural. Haven't they read Genesis?

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 5:22 p.m. CST

    most of you are losers

    by gaek

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 8:04 p.m. CST

    Another weekend ending. Have a great week ahead.

    by Jerri Blank


  • Oct. 9, 2005, 10:03 p.m. CST

    The 2

    by Darth Maui

    I'm a Mormon and I've never read Card's books. Where does that put me? Anyways, I just love how a thread about whether an Ender's movie might get made turns into a thread about whether homosexuality is right or not.

  • Oct. 9, 2005, 10:15 p.m. CST

    The 2

    by Darth Maui

    "The shit I went through in high school

  • Oct. 10, 2005, 12:12 a.m. CST

    been a very long time since ive posted here

    by exador

    ....and after reading most of the talkback here, i'm reminded why..anytime some sort of politics comes up here, you only get a small small group that has any kind of positive conversation in mind, or atleast polite disagreement backed up with strong facts or notions..instead you get a whole lot of loud mouthed jerks that turn the site into a cesspit of intolerance and namecalling. its very sad. anyhow....i had the pleasure of meeting OSC years ago during a booksigning in Toronto...he was warm, friendly and very kind...a true gentleman...the line up took almost 4 hours for me to reach him to get him to sign my book (it was when Xenocide was released) and i wondered why the line up took so was because he was taking the time to have long chats with every single person that was there..he impressed me very much ....i'm sad that his personal views in life are so completely at odds with what i believe, and that he's a very big supporter of the neocons and such..but thats life...doesnt change the fact that he was also incredibly nice to me, and that i really enjoyed meeting him....i dislike his views on homosexuality, and it'd be nice to think he was a bit more open minded (or intelligent) but there ya go.....itd be nice if everyone had and open mind, but all you can do is just try to stay positive, and influence your own little part of the world...if you have kids (as i do) you just make sure they're raised to treat people with respect, to try to see to it that they grow up knowing other cultures and other types of becomes increasingly hard to tell a gay joke or a racist joke, if you have friends that are gay or a different colour :)

  • Oct. 10, 2005, 12:52 a.m. CST

    The 2

    by Darth Maui

    You can have friends who smoke and teach your kids to be tolerant of those who smoke but smoking is still bad for you.

  • Oct. 10, 2005, 6:28 p.m. CST

    how is gay sex bad for you?

    by samsquanch

    I just don't get the smoking analogy. smoking destroys your lungs, you need lungs to breathe. it's bad. Gay sex is just sex, and sex isn't bad for you, (barring std's, naturally). So unless you believe in the abstract concept of "sin", which seems pretty morally random, and if you don't believe that the core of the earth is a netherworld of fire and brimstone ruled by a red guy with horns, then where's the harm?

  • Oct. 10, 2005, 6:34 p.m. CST

    Anyone who thinks the Ender story is meant to claim forgiveness

    by FluffyUnbound

    Sorry. I thought I'd heard just about every stupid theory the world had to offer, but I guess there's always a new low to be had. Card may be a Mormon moron and a homophobe, but this Hitler theory is absolutely moronic and the sort of "critical theory" excess that makes anyone with half a brain laugh at the entire field.

  • Oct. 10, 2005, 7:30 p.m. CST

    At the risk of being banned...

    by pizzatheface

    "Nigger, Spic, Honkey, Faggot, Wop, Gook, etc." How much you want a bet I'll be banned, even though what I wrote here has no hatred attatched to it? I'm just writing letters in an order that some people find offensive. I'm not prejudiced! Yet, there is PLENTY of malicious stuff being written in these posts that is intentionally offensive (Especially the low-blow about Card's mentally retarded son), but nobody here is going to be banned except for me. I love double standards. Let's drop the hatred, people, and talk about movies!

  • Oct. 11, 2005, 2:41 a.m. CST

    The 2

    by Darth Maui

    "how is gay sex bad for you?" That's not really as topic for an AICN thread but many people have smoked and said that nothing bad would come of it. It is only in recent years that the majority of people are beginning to realize it destroys. Just as with smoking, gay sex (along with other sexual deviations) is only likely to have negative effects in the long term and the best way to sum it up is that years down the road you will end up with a decreased quality of life (including family life). If you have no concept of what I am talking about then just trust that there may be more to life than what you have conceived so far. I don't threaten people with the possibility that God's going to give them a good talking to then send them down to hell to be pitchforked for eternity by impish little demons. The reason it is a sin is because it is bad for *you*, not because it pisses off somebody who you think is just trying to keep you from having a little fun.

  • Oct. 11, 2005, 3:29 a.m. CST

    Just for the record . . .

    by MrCere

    The Mormon church not only claims homosexual action is wrong but so is all sex and even sexual activity outside of the bonds of marriage. Hats off to JerriBlank for showing some real class here at Talkback.

  • Oct. 11, 2005, 12:06 p.m. CST

    The 2

    by Darth Maui

    "The Mormon church not only claims homosexual action is wrong but so is all sex and even sexual activity outside of the bonds of marriage." It used to be not only Momrmons who thought that. Now everybody else insists on doing whatever they want, whenever they want and that nobody should stop them. "MUST . . . OBEY . . . EVERY . . . URGE."

  • Oct. 11, 2005, 3:49 p.m. CST

    Thanks Hairy Nutsack...

    by tango fett

    I was gonna say the same exact thing. Jerri dude (or uh, chick I guess), the Old Testament is a Jewish sorta thing. You kinda missed the point of the New Testament buddy...but you certainly did your homework which is cool. Now, I don't HATE gays, I'm just sorta against it because well, the bible specifically says that it's wrong, what with the Sodom and Gomorrah thing. Just sayin' is all.

  • Oct. 11, 2005, 4:04 p.m. CST


    by tango fett

    Sorry about the dude or chick thing if that was offensive but uh yeah, sorry. As I've said, I believe Homosexuality is a sin, but that doesn't instantly make you a sick, horrible person (to an extent I guess). I have a science teacher who's a lesbian and she's absolutely batshit crazy (in a cool way). Do I hate her for her choice in gender? Hell no. I just don't really agree with it as that's how us crazy-ass Lutherans are. But as others have said, it's nice that you have some class in what you type compared to most of the assholes on here (well, except for your first one I guess). Anywho, this shouldn't be a movie, blah blah blah, good book though. Out

  • Oct. 11, 2005, 5:28 p.m. CST

    darth maui

    by samsquanch

    " It's only in recent years that people realize that it destroys"... recent like, since the sixties? The smoking analogy was a bad one, man, let it go... I asked a specific question, and as for whether or not this forum is appropriate for this topic, 1: too late for that mate, and 2: why? I don't believe I'm going to convince anyone to renounce their faith here, but I have a pet theory that people like you, and Hairy, and nearly half the talkbackers here are generally decent, intelligent folks that have just never had the privilege of being able to engage in this kind of debate. Forgive me if I seem a little hostile sometimes, I genuinely enjoy the dialogue, I just have a tendency to be a bit of a prick (I don't think that would change if I found Jesus, BTW) This kind of forum gets shit on, but I actually really enjoy it, it's a forgotten little corner of the net populated by nerds like me, and how facinating is it that we have so much in common, but you're a mormon, I'm a heathen, Jerri's a fag, there's probably a few closet girls in here, etc. Why shouldn't this be the PERFECT forum for debate like this? This is where I found out that Orson Scott Card is a lunatic! That broke my fucking heart man! you mentioned that you hadn't read the books, read Ender's Game and get back to us, you might figure out why it pisses me off so much that he dismisses 10 percent of the human population for being born. You mentioned that gay sex is "deviant sex". if your church teaches you this, that's a real shame. again, I think you're a compassionate, perceptive person, you seem relaxed and confident, I honestly believe if you ever actually got to know some queers you might figure out that they're just people, like you, and me, they get married and have kids and fight with their parents and playfight with their siblings and get dumped and break hearts and grow old together, just like Mormons, Muslims, or Jews, or pricks like me.......... oh yeah, and by the way, you guys are totally right about the Leviticus passage being in the Old Testament, so uh, do you think you could give Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all those guys a call and give them a heads up? Thanks. Also, Everyone's complimenting Jerri for doing his homework on that, but I haven't read an actual rebuttal, like, somewhere else in the Bible it specifically denounces homosexuality... are there any in the new testament? enlighten me.... thanks for tuning in.

  • Oct. 11, 2005, 6:49 p.m. CST

    Salon article

    by snowpuff

    As Prankster said, there are many, many more articles and writings that you can read where Card lays out his bigotted opinions and his other bizarre rantings.

  • Oct. 12, 2005, 1:25 a.m. CST

    The 2

    by Darth Maui

    "Why shouldn't this be the PERFECT forum for debate like this?" Well, I have been discussing things but I only let a little out at a time. "I honestly believe if you ever actually got to know some queers you might figure out that they're just people." Trust me, I know some queers and I don't do anything to antagonize them. We get along fine. "Could you give Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and all those guys a call and give them a heads up?" I don't really have anything to do with them. It's hard to lay out all my views in one paragraph but Joseph Smith (don't stop reading just because that name was mentioned) said that God is far more liberal than people give him credit for. I know a lot about the issue; it is complex and not as simplistic as even many Mormons can grasp. I'm sorry if gays have to deal with people who are too fanatic in the opposite direction and condemn gays to hell. It's not about the possibility of going to hell. It's about everybody on the planet learning what's best for them in the long run. And people can appear to be "living right" on the surface and still need to correct elitist, self-righteous attitudes.

  • Oct. 12, 2005, 3:12 a.m. CST

    points of actual contention

    by samsquanch

    I got nothing against Mormons, don't get me wrong. It's interesting that you mention elitist, self righteous attitudes, however. Here are a few that I've identified:______Where do you get the idea that Homosexuality is some kind of destructive force in your life? It's baffling to me that you see something so benign as a personal threat to your happiness and liberty. Before anyone starts talking about the "gay agenda", however, allow me to let you all in on a little secret; after Intelligent Design, "The Gay Agenda" is the most laughable idea the religious right has ever come up with. Try putting just ten fags in a room and see if they can agree on ANYTHING, much less how to take over the world.______Apparently, gayness is somehow destroying "The Family". I say that particularly narrow concept of the Family is a much more recent phenomenon than homosexuality. It's older than religion itself, incidentally, and we still have families.______As far as Gayness being any kind of corrosive agent in society, let me ask you, when was the last time you saw a bunch of drag queens hanging out by a church with placards that read "Fags Hate God"? or when did a gay president start a war in the middle east because Muslims dress like hell? Or armed pink Militias?______Here's what I believe: I believe that religion fucks up all the good parts about religion. Jesus probably had some pretty enlightening and tolerant things to say about queers, but the prudes who packaged and sold Christianity a few hundred years later probably left those bits out. The old men responsible for the actual text in the bible probably thought homosexuality was "icky", and a couple thousand years later, it's fucking scripture. Get over it already. "those that are without sin may cast the first stone," and all that. practice what you preach.

  • Oct. 12, 2005, 4:14 p.m. CST

    The 2

    by Darth Maui

    I agree with a lot of what you just said, the primary thing being that there are many people who profess to be religious who are just not getting it right. There are some things however that I never said, such as seeing homosexuality "as a personal threat to [my] happiness and liberty." I also never said anything about gays having an agenda or saying they hate God. I also never said we should stone gays or that I am without sin.