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Quint lobs fireballs at FANTASTIC FOUR!
SPOILER ALERT !!
Ahoy, squirts! Quint here with my thoughts on FANTASTIC FOUR.
First things first. I grew up on Marvel comics. Even though I dipped into Batman and Superman every once in a while I never really got into DC. "Make mine, Marvel!" That's me. X-Men and Spider-Man were my favorite books, the books that I had subscriptions to. I did read Fantastic Four, but it wasn't one I kept up with issue to issue. However, I always loved the characters more than just about any other Marvel characters. The friendships, the relationships, the family feuds, the teamwork... and the villains. Doom is iconic and mysterious... the little glimpse of scar tissue around his eyes... I loved the way they handled him in the mid-80s books back on down the line to the '60s.
That being said, I probably picked up more copies of What If? than I did Fantastic Four books. My biggest exposure to the FF was when they dipped into Amazing Spider-Man, so I'm no expert on the book, nor do I know every single twist and turn in the backstory of each of the Four. I may not know each book by heart, but I can tell you that this film doesn't do justice to any aspect of the original material. Even the very small bits they get right in the movie seem half-assed.
Harry was able to find something to grab on to, something to make him enjoy the film even just a little bit. I wish I could have done that. My reaction to the trailers wasn't "This is godawful," but more "Meh." I didn't feel any excitement in the previews, I didn't see the actors becoming these characters, I didn't see any visual effects that made me go, "Oh, wow!" I was hoping that the film would have more to it than what is shown in the trailers, that Fox and Marvel were saving the money shots for the big screen.
So, my immediate reaction as the credits rolled was the movie was just as mediocre/bad as I was expecting... but that's not exactly true. It was as full of ill-executed special effects, emotionless characters, bland line delivery, enough modern references, slang and music to make SHREK blush and boring villain work as I was expecting it to be, but there were no great money shots or action sequences that I was hoping they were hiding from me. Matter of fact, if you've seen the main trailers and any one of the TV spots running right now you've seen 95% of the action in the film. No shit.
The movie has no energy whatsoever until the last 15 minutes and even then we get a climax that feels like it'd be a throw away bit of first act action in any other superhero movie.
I could nitpick this movie to death, but I'll steer clear of that stuff. There are plenty of major mistakes that I don't need to delve into the small wrongs. Although I will say ask yourself why all the characters that needed to be on the bridge just happen to be there... or how The Thing gets from the Baxter building to Doom's office all the way across New York in about a minute and a half... Or just how convenient it is that Doom has those masks in his office... Gah! I better stop or this'll just turn into a list of all the little shit that pile up to make the film the massive turd it is...
Characters:
Ioan Gruffudd as Reed Richards (aka Mr. Fantastic). I don't believe Mr. Gruffudd is a bad actor and I'm sure he can do great work, but he's so dull in this movie. Mr. Fantastic has always been a brain, but he's also been extremely likable, at least in the exposure I've had of him in comics. Gruffudd has a couple moments in the film where he isn't boring (the "date" with Sue and the restraining of Ben Grimm to be specific), but overall he was just bland and lifeless. He also gets the worst of the effects for his character. The CGI on Mr. Fantastic is ass that looks like it belongs in 1990.
Jessica Alba as Sue Storm (aka Invisible GIRL). Yes, GIRL. They even have a joke about her being the Invisible GIRL in the movie. She's gorgeous, no doubt. I thought she was beautiful starting back in the IDLE HANDS days... in many ways I'd say she hasn't been hotter than when she was in that angel outfit. However, no matter how pretty she is, there is no heart to her performance at all. That might be because the script calls for her to Ms. Bitch for the majority of the film, but it really felt like Alba was doing the bare minimum to put her character onto the screen.
I think they terribly miscast Reed and Sue. They’re too young. That might sound nitpicky, but in all honesty it's a big deal. It changes the dynamic of the Fantastic Four. Instead of being the matriarch of the group, she's now the little girl. The bickering between her and her brother (Johnny Storm) now comes off as just plain childish and annoying. I never felt that she loved Reed in the film, which is also a big dynamic of the group missed in exchange for some ridiculous love triangle story line involving Doom.
Chris Evans as Johnny Storm (aka The Human Torch). Of all the effects in the movie, I think Torch was handled the best and Chris Evans goes a long way to making him just as cocky, but likable as you want him to be. However, his character is slapped with the most dating dialogue, modern references, soundtrack and surroundings. The X-Games, the '00s rock soundtrack whenever he's onscreen... I think in another director's hands, with another script to work off of, Evans would have been a great Human Torch. As it stands he barely survives as being "pretty good."
Michael Chiklis as Ben Grimm (aka The Thing). Chiklis is the only one of the 4 that makes it through the film untainted. His Ben Grimm is perfect... tough, a bit of a smart-ass and loyal. His performance as The Thing (aka when he’s in orange costume) is equally great and the script is kindest to him in most respects. As great as he was in this film, I can only imagine how iconic he could have been if the film had actually been treated with a tiny bit of respect by the studio or the filmmakers.
Julian McMahon as Victor Von Doom (aka Dr. Doom). You know, reading interviews with McMahon I do get the feeling that he loves the character of Doom and I’m sure his heart was in the right place, but he's dreadful in the movie. I don't know how much of it to pin on his acting, though, since most of the reasons why Doom doesn't work is in the execution of a bad script idea. Instead of keeping with the dictator of Latveria angle (a bit absurd, but done right it could have been brilliant and radically different than any other super villain put to film yet) they decided the Green Goblin arc was more interesting.
He's now a businessman who ends up mutating into a metal man all the while his partners are undercutting him and taking his business. Instead of a pumpkin bomb on a balcony, it's a face off in an underground garage, but it all amounts to the same thing. His powers are ridiculous, his character 2 dimensional and worst of all... he's completely non-threatening and even boring. Visually, character-wise... just drab.
The pacing is almost nonexistent. The movie plods along and plods along and plods along. There is no excitement in the space station. There is a tiny bit of coolness to the Thing on the bridge, but then again... we've all seen the important bits of that scene for the last 6 months now... Thing blocks truck, pulls fire truck back over the edge... There was little new.
The Human Torch/Missile chase is good for the minute it takes, but there is no drama to the chase... It just kind of happens. Although I do like one moment when the Torch is able to temporarily decoy the missile away.
The end battle with the Four and Doom is short and not exciting in the least, with the exception of The Thing throwing a car and the Human Torch lobbing some good ol' fireballs.
The interaction between Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm is pretty great, but way underused. They have a couple good moments, the best being outside of the X-Games, but even those good scenes just peter out into nothingness, building to absolutely nada.
The score by John Ottman, who I really do like as a composer, is just like the movie: bland and overrun by shitty-ass modern rock music.
And yes... the outfits do look pretty good (although I can nitpick that, too... ask yourself why the Fantastic Four emblem isn't visible when Sue is invisible or doesn't burn off when Johnny Flames On), but if one of the best things a superhero movie has going for it are decent looking outfits, then it is in trouble.
I didn't want the film to end up being as bad or worse than I was expecting. I actually had some hope that I'd enjoy at least the spectacle of it, but the movie really does come up empty on all accounts. The characters are drab, uninspired and boring (with the exceptions of The Torch and The Thing). The spectacle is mishandled, the effects second rate at best. When you don't have a good script and can't even bring in the eye candy, then I don't know what to say.
Will you like it? I hope so. I certainly wanted to be wrong about the impressions the trailer gave me. I can't say how you'll react. I can just say that I have no desire to ever watch this movie again. It may not be as overall bad as CATWOMAN, but I somehow feel just as insulted by the movie, if that makes any sense?
Anyway, that's about it from me. I have a couple set reports to work on, but I'm afraid Comic-Con may arrive before I get ample time to work on 'em. Comic-Con is shaping up to be damn cool, so keep an eye out for my daily reports from San Diego starting next Thursday! 'Til then, this is Quint bidding you all a fond farewell and adieu.
-Quint
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Jul 08, 2005 3:33:41 AM CDT
This movie is a relentlessly banal, steaming pile of shit.
by robogeek.com
You fucked up yet another one, Avi and Tom! (For more, read...) robogeek.com/2005/07/fantastic-four-is-crap.html
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You throw the smackdown and a link to boot.
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I wasn't that excited when I heard this was going to be made. I knew that the FF was going to be a tough proposition to bring to the screen properly. Then, I thought the trailers looked pretty lame. But the kicker was when I heard what they were going to do with Dr.Doom. Made no sense at all. Why fuck around with Marvel's best villain?
Harry and Quint's reviews just confirm what I'd figured all along. This movie is going to suck. Marvel movies have pretty much jumped the shark anyhow and this is just more evidence of it.
Hell, I'll just go see Batman Begins for the third time. At least SOMEBODY got it right this summer. -
What sucks is that Ioan Gruffudd is a really wonderful actor to watch. His work on Horatio Hornblower was exceptional, though I guess he wants to run away from his period costumed roots and into a spandex unitard. After the buttwhooping this flick is gonna take this weekend, he's going to wish he was wearing a puffy shirt again.
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Jul 08, 2005 4:06:28 AM CDT
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
by drworm2002
FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK
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Jul 08, 2005 4:14:50 AM CDT
Do like I'm doing - buy a ticket for "Batman Begins" to supp
by thedevilsbidness
I do it all the time to support my favorite movies. When
"Serenity" comes out, I'll see it three or four times then buy tickets to see it again but actually go see something else. Yay me. -
I saw Hellboy twice and bought tix for it twice. Went to see The Girl Next Door & Alamo. Woo Boy did Alamo suck.
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Fantastic Four has always been the main Marvel book I was least interested in. The only time I ever found it readable was during Byrne's run. John Byrne actually made the book interesting. I like the characters, like the idea, but have almost always hated the execution...
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they bought tickets for some bad Disney movie that I can't rememebr the name of, which did great fake business, and the south park movie got seen by every kid in teh USA but didnt make hardly any money at the BO.
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14% on the tomato-meter at Rotten Tomatoes!!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHHAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
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Jul 08, 2005 4:52:17 AM CDT
They couldn't even make a good trailer out of this film. ser
by theginger twit
"You don't want to spend the rest of your life on fire do you?" "Is this a trick question?" (what the fuck is that?) "You're genetic structure is changing" ZAP "Think I'll get another oppinion" (Who writes this shit??)
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http://tinyurl.com/9yjmp
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Jul 08, 2005 5:02:24 AM CDT
"14% on the tomato-meter at Rotten Tomatoes!!!! YEEEEEEEEEEEEEHH
by thirteen 13
Ouch. Thats pretty damn bad.
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Just saw the midnight dcreening at the Arclight here in Hollywood. Godawful is the nicest thing I can say about this boring piece of crap. And it is replacing Star Wars ROTS in the mammoth Cinerama Dome.20th Century Fox should be ashamed of this load.
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Jul 08, 2005 5:08:33 AM CDT
"buying tickets for a movie you're not going to see is how e
by thirteen 13
Actually thats how they see all the R rated movies. Its the oldest trick in the book and it works beautifully. Thats how we all did it back when I was a kid. Always has worked. Always will continue to work, for the simple reason theater owners don't moniter the individual auditoriums. They never have, and they never will.
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Jul 08, 2005 5:17:04 AM CDT
This movie could spell the beginning of the end of this socalled
by orionsangels
They're milking it too much, it's like by the time they got to batman4 feeling. They're trying to make movies about every super hero and too quickly
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It was reported here that he hates the superhero movies and is sabotaging X-Men. With FF: One down, one to go. Sad.-----later-----m
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Wow. Last time I saw ratings that bad on Rotten Tomatoes I was reading the reviews for Catwoman. And for the few Batman Begins haters out there: Sorry, FF isn't going to beat Batman Begins in Box office receipts. Better luck next time.
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Jul 08, 2005 5:34:56 AM CDT
Yeah, but what they do with the clothing here is especially stup
by ribbons
Now, the FF in theory are not very clothing-friendly. The Thing has size 30 stompers, the Human Torch burns everything, the only time Sue would be able to turn invisible is if she were naked, and Reed's stretchitude would destroy his clothes (unless they stayed on in a Hulk-sized contrivance). So they invented the whole "unstable molecules" dealio in the comics. The molecules are unstable, or whatever, so their definition can be changed by whatever the four do. It sounds as stupid in the comics as it does when I say it, but hey, who are you to question science that doesn't actually exist?!?!? If you can't prove it right then you can't prove it wrong, eh? Eh? Eh? But so anyway, what they do in the movie is imply that the "DNA" of their clothes changed. Because, you know, clothes have DNA. Ooga-booga.
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It probably WILL beat Batman in the box office returns because it seems to have a bigger promotional campaign. This will teach all of the simple-minded studio execs that making shit is more profitable than making an intelligent film like Batman Begins, and thus it will be another ten years before we see another fluke of brilliance like it.
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I was actually expecting you to write a completely unfair review, but you were pretty balanced. For the most part. Which is actually kind of disappointing, because it means that this movie probably sucks as bad as everyone's saying it does.
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and I'll post my non comic book critical review. I'm going with my 4 year old son, who will probably be much less critical. I wonder if he'll remember it fondly, like Harry and Co do of the worlds worst movies(Godzilla, Wonka, and any other terrible movie of our youth, which when watched today are nearly unwatchable, uneventfull and cheezy), or will he think it was a blast. He liked Daredevel, Catwoman, and SHrek about equally. He didn't really analyze them. He just watched the story and had fun. I wonder if I'll be able to regain some of that myself today?
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I just got done reading robogeek's review, and like so many others, a lot of venom spared for the movie is predicated on the most fanboy-ish of nitpicks. I'm not a Marvel apologist. I actively and aggressively trash a handful of their films (and it's all well-documented in this site's archives, if you care to look). But when people say "Johnny Storm is inexplicably non-blonde," it comes off less as a withering comment and more like nont being able to see the forest through the trees. There's a very good explanation for why he's non-blonde: because Chris Evans is a better Johnny Storm than Paul Walker, that's why. Same reason Ben Grimm doesn't have brown hair, "inexplicably." Approximating the look of the character could have actually undermined the efforts to find a good actor. I won't really defend Jessica Alba, because I thought they should have gone with Rachel McAdams, who not only would have satisfied John Byrne but is a better actress to boot. And this is what I mean when I say I don't know to what degree I can trust critics like Quint, and (, yes) like Harry, and others whose opinions I normally respect but fear that they're talking around their disappointment that the movie wasn't tailor-made for them. And it creates a divide, because hearing long-winded dissertations on why it sucks that Ben Grimm didn't get to make any blonde jokes at Johnny's expense is as exasperating to me as my long-winded rant about why that shouldn't really matter probably is to everyone who's having those discussions. And yes, this movie is probably going to suck, and I'm sorry for slowing down the parade of deliriously clever insults everyone has stored up for it. If you wanna keep going on with it, fine. I realize in theory -- if not emotionally -- that it's not my place to be "inquisitive" about what you have to say about the film. So I won't be; at least, not individually. But there are times where I honestly feel like I'm taking crazy pills and I fail to see why certain aspects of the film that don't correspond well to the comics provoke such rage. I've heard all the lines about how "so-and-so" is a classic character, and how they're a template for Vader, or how Sue Storm is the Invisible WOMAN, not the Invisible GIRL (which isn't even really accurate anyway, if you're going to play that game). I just haven't really heard a compelling argument about why those particulars make a difference. And I'm not baiting for "fuck yous" or snarky remarks from kids on summer vacation who idolize Maddox, although I fully expect them.
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Jul 08, 2005 6:09:36 AM CDT
"ask yourself why the Fantastic Four emblem isn't visible wh
by freak2thec0re
but before that, ask yourself exactly how it's possible that the girl is turning invisible and the dude engulfing himself in flames. then you won't have to worry about little things like that anymore
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Jul 08, 2005 7:05:03 AM CDT
At least there is no scene with Halle Berry yelling "It's OV
by mr. profit
But Jessica Alba looking like she has to do a doozy of a twoozy when she tells Doom "No.Lets!" could be a close second.
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So much so that I took comfort in the fact that Harry liked Van Helsing. I assumed it was his grudge against Fox that was tainting his review of the film. Now, however, with the mainstream critics weighing in, it appears Harry was actually kind to the film. (Sigh.) 19% positive at Rotten Tomotoes right now. I'll see it, simply because I've been wanting to see a Fantastic Four film since I was in the first grade and read my first THING comic, but it's looking more and more like they screwed this up. And I think I get why Harry is so pissed...because this is it. The one chance in my lifetime that they're going to do this movie. Because when it bombs, that's it. No more F4. Crap!
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...instead of the costumes being made of Reed's patented "unstable molecules," they're just suits that the FF happened to be wearing when they received their powers. The emblems aren't added until later in the film, which means they weren't altered in space along with the rest of the uniforms, so the emblems shouldn't turn invisible or be fire-resistant. C'mon, if Arad and Co. managed to fuck up Doctor Doom -- Darth Vader before there was a Darth Vader -- do you honestly think they would keep the concept of unstable molecules? Time to get that blue FF wristband to complement your ELEKTRA red wristband reminder, Avi.
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For Stan's sake, what's with this "F4" crap? The team has always been called the FF for short! Anyway, it kills me that the one Marvel property that needed a Spielberg or a Cameron at the helm got a low-budget comedy director. Even Emmerich or Sommers would have at least made it look good, and with a good script, they would turned in an exciting flick. Chris Columbus, who was going to direct at one point and still has a producer credit, would have been a preferable choice to Story.
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"Harry's had it in for this movie since day one, he's bashing it because he wasn't invited to the set." "Harry hates it? That means it must be GREAT!" "Quint says he hates it because he's in the AICN Mafia." Guys, guys... no one's listening. The word's out. You've managed to make The Lamest Superhero Movie of All Time. Too bad for Avi Arad that he can't recall and burn the bootlegs of Corman's "F.F."... it must be embarassing when a labor of love that wasn't even meant to be released, made on a hundredth of the budget, outshines your "summer tentpole".
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Jul 08, 2005 8:19:34 AM CDT
I honestly did not see any difference between this and the first
by terry_1978
Both had EXTREME flaws, albeit people later saw some gleams of hope in second viewings. There is no way in hell that the first Spidey had less corn and cheese than FF, as they're pretty much in the same universe as far as that goes.
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Jul 08, 2005 8:23:08 AM CDT
Stay at home and be a comic snob or go see it and you might actu
by cookylamoo
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Jul 08, 2005 8:23:08 AM CDT
"A lot of reviewers have said "as bad as Daredevil" which was a
by pviii
brobdingnag, if you could just elaborate on this a bit.
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( Is it really true that hammerheads who check into the talkbacks just to shout "first" have never, ever been laid? That would explain much.) Great counterpoints, Ribbons. Those small nitpicks ( whose hair is what color eg) aren't as important as getting the gist of FF right. Sadly, it seems that the people who moulded this turd had no passion for the subject, & it shows on the screen. Backs up my assertion that Tim Story had no business directing FF, & the evidence is right up there on the screen. My poor FF - how can anyone overcome lame, uninspired direction & a pedestrian script? Ang Lee's mistake with The Hulk were the understandable errors of an "art house" director turning the Big Green Lug into an episode of Montel Williams; the sins of the quacks behind mangling the FF are of another order - not caring enough about the source material to do it proper justice. Or maybe we've been spoiled by guys like Bryan Singer & Sam Raimi ( Crom bless you, boys), guys who delivered the goods big time. I had hoped someone would have a go at Ironman, but if its going to be jokes like Tim Story directing, I'd rather they didn't. And that pisses me off.
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Jul 08, 2005 8:31:19 AM CDT
I wonder why Quint didn't have the balls to put up a review
by atticus finch
Curious.
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"i.e" not "AKA". "that is" not "also known as"
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Fantastic Four is a piece of shit?
In other news, the sky is blue.
And Daredevil was terrible.
Want a superhero movie?
Go rent Ichi the Killer.
That movie is full of superheroes. -
...and then rattle off a bunch of clearly fanboy-angst-ridden criticisms of the film. Alba may be a bad actress, but she's not too young to play the Invisible GIRL (yes, dumbshit, Girl... like she was called in the origin story). I won't defend the movie overall because I haven't seen it yet (but I will). I will, however, take great pleasure in pointing out the many instances where feeble critics latch onto poorly thought-out arguments in an effort to make the movie seem worse than it may actually be.
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and avoid this film like Catwoman. Or Daredevil. Or X-Men 3. The Incredibles is everything that a F.F. movie could have/should have been. And obviously Brad Bird has more respect for the material. STOP PAYING THEM $10 TO SEE CRAP!!! You're only making it worse.
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Jul 08, 2005 8:55:52 AM CDT
I love how people attempt to persuade you not to see this by say
by terry_1978
It's become a cliche across the board now. And I'm still going because it's Marvel, regardless of my opinion after the fact.
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It was quite fun. The movie is really about the interaction of these characters as a family. Which is the way it should be. It does suffer from Independence Day science. But I didn't come to watch the film to learn about molecular biology. Some of Quint's grips are valid but nitpicky. I went to have fun because I knew exactly what I was getting into. It is not as good as Spiderman 1 but in the same league. It has respect for the source material and is nothing like Catwoman.
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Jul 08, 2005 8:58:39 AM CDT
Dude, Roll Out The Special Edition Roger Corman Version On DVD A
by www.valiens.com
It can't be any worse than this--and The Thing costume looks better (except when the eyeholes move when he speaks. It is a Spencers Gifts mask after all.)
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Also, since Devin at Chud.com kinda liked it, the movie must seriously blow. I'd like to see the Corman version as well. I hear they actually got the thing right.
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Could anything be as bad as Catwoman? Talk about using an ice auger for an anal probe. Featuring an Oscar winning actress, no less? I wish Brad Bird had directed FF instead of The Incredibles, because the guy is exactly what we all would want from a director for this "franchise". ( although I thought Iron Giant was superior to The Incredibles, which itself was wonderful - but The Incredibles didn't utterly break my heart like Iron Giant did.) Anyone out there needing to recover from the disapppointment that is FF, go rent Iron Giant. Throw your dollars Brad's way; he'll make much better use of them, I promise you. ( hey Scratcher - you didn't like anything about daredevil at all? lumping anything in with Catwoman is just brutal. only asking)
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Jul 08, 2005 9:15:51 AM CDT
TheOnion.com kinda liked it (I tend to agree with their reviews)
by frankdrebin
Doesn't Hollywood WANT to have franchises anymore? I guess they're happy with one-offs that they have to promote like crazy to recoup their investment before words gets around.
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Jul 08, 2005 9:21:59 AM CDT
This is what happens when the studio gets its way without a batt
by hypnos99
No passion equals no good.
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i promised my friend i'd go to a matinee tomorrow. fuck. ah, well, at least Alba wil provide eye-candy. (in case you were wondering, Alba IS the most beautiful woman on earth. in light of this, her acting talent, or lack thereof, is largely irrelevant. she was born with all the talent she will ever need. that is, of course, until she gets old and nobody cares about her. ah, the lyrical tragedy of the beautiful young starlet! direct-to-video soft core "porn" beckons you Alba! it beckons! sooner than you realize...)
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Sincerely, explain that to me.
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I thought he had his own site but I can't remember where. I read his BB review and opinion on the new Superman suit.
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Jul 08, 2005 9:31:13 AM CDT
Brad Bird: Yeah, lifting other peoples material makes you a gre
by cookylamoo
You could make a case that there have been other super-heroes who are strong, stretch and run fast. But the combination of invisability and a force field? Brad should send twenty five cents of every dollar he made on the Incredibles to Stan Lee.
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it mighta been a bit of a downer emotionally, but it was a great movie. i think it failed because all people wanted was "HULK SMASH!" not, "Hulk has emotional problems" / "Hulk was abused as a child" / "Hulk's daddy is a bastard." in short -- Ang Lee made a great film, and american audiences were far too stupid to get it. it would have been a HUGE hit if it was a 2 hour long fight scene played over some retardo, affluent suburban teenie angst on ritalin nu-metal shittrack.
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Jul 08, 2005 9:41:52 AM CDT
Hulk didn't suck because it wasn't all "Hulk Smash!!!!".
by brock samson
It sucked because the "Hulk's Daddy" subplot was dull and annoying, the ending was terrible, and the performances were pretty weak, except for Sam Elliot's. Ang Lee's a talented guy, but they can't all be hits. Don't act so superior because most people didn't like it. Get over it. As to why FF probably sucks, I think Avi Arad and Marvel are too blame. They've been pushing out poor scripts to hack directors. Rami and Singer were the only two guys with good directing experience. The guy who directed "Taxi" making a FF film? No wonder it's said to suck.
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I just had too many storylines crammed into one movie. It was overkill. It was Frank Millers Man without fear Bill Seinkweicz(sp)"s Electra Saga and Millers Death of Electra All rolled into one. They should have picked one story and told that Preferebaly Man without fear.
Fantastic Four will suffer from being an amalgam of the Ultimate Fantastic Four and the original.
In the Ultimate version Doom does get his powers at the same time as Four. I just read the comics and it's good but it's also a bit out there. They get their powers by going through the Negative Zone. In the movie it's like the comic but more like the Hero's Reborn Version.
I bet people were looking for the Mole Man to pop up with his Creature so they could all wet themselves.
One thing people should take into consideration, is that if this movie came out, exactly as it is today but back when X-men came out, people would be raving about it.
Flip the two movies. Flip X-men with FF. If That happened would X-men be getting any raves from the fanboy's? I think not. After so many Marvel Movies of varying degrees of quality to compare with An X-men movie of FF movie and anything new will be jugded harshly. Look at all the venom being spewed at Ghost Rider. Look for all the Venom to be spewed at Spiderman 3 when we all hear Topher Grace will be playing a version of Venom.
Unfortunately Marvel has messed up their rep by rushing out stinkers like Electra X3 and I'll even toss DD in their(but Not Hulk, Hulk is a story telling and editing isssue not quality issue).
In that vein I'm going to have to do what i did when I started watching Lucas and Spielberg Movies when I was a kid. Indian Jones has nothing in common with Close Encounters or Jaws except that one man Directed them. Star wars has nothing in common with Indian Jones or Howard the Duck except one man put them on screen.
So to me all Marvel Movies must occupy their own sub catergory in the Comics Adaptation genre. The same goes for DC movies.
I stopped reading FF comics when John Byrne took the book over after he finished working on X-men. So to me i'm just going to wtch an action adventure sci-fi flick and will judge it on that basis alone, Not on whether Johnny boy has blond hair. You guys and your aryan worship. -
and quint just confimed why...
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the Hulk daddy subplot actually made me give a shit about the HULK! sure, it was kinda depressing, but it gave the HULK some kind of emotional weight other than "ME SMASHEM UP STUFF!" previous to the film, i thought the HULK was retarded. excuse, me, "special." imho, of course.
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I gotta side with the pro-HULK crowd on this one. I went in expecting the worst from what I'd heard but came away with what I thought to be one of the Top 5 superhero movies of all time. It had a real story and genuine emotion. Plus, I honestly thought the HULK looked great. A giant beast, a real HULK, as opposed to some guy in green makeup. Top 5 superhero flicks IMHO: 1) Spider-Man 2 2) Batman Begins 3) Superman 1&2 (I count them as one long movie) 4) X-Men 2 5) Hulk. Argue with my list if you like, but you'd be wrong.
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...and I'm talking live action. if you want to include The Incredibles, it probably goes to the top of the list.
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Jul 08, 2005 10:21:29 AM CDT
Could you really consider any superhero flick,"live action"
by justice41
What with all the cgi and all that.
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Do you seriously think that the Incredibles owed 25% of its success to the powers of the daughter? It's the storytelling. It's the dialogue and development of the characters. It's the fantastic production design. It's actually having real actors be your stars. A good movie isn't made or unmade by creative superpowers (what superpowers haven't been created by now anyway?) MaguaSynfield: I own the first 200 issues of DareDevil, but didn't see the movie. I guess if it was on HBO when I had time to kill I'd watch it, but I'm not in love with superhero movies. I'd rather watch Cowboy Bebop or Mononoke (or HLCL) if I want that type of entertainment. But give me a Wes Anderson movie any day over studio mediocrity.
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I liked the idea of giving Hulk emotional weight, don't get me wrong. It was an intriguing idea. I just didn't like the way it was handled. It may have to do with my disliking the performances in the film by Bana and Nolte. Oh well. I'm sure Hulk is better than FF anyway.
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Was I the only person who thought that Mystery Men was hilarious? When I saw it in the theater I thought it was going to be huge, but never did anything. Was it just poor marketing, or was I delusional? Greg Kinnear's NASCAR Superman was a classic.
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I don`t see an oscar in her future, but she does look sweet in spandex..
fantastic four sucks, uh, we knew that the moment tim story was announced as the director, how could you expect a good movie from the director responsible (or guilty) of taxi and barbershop, that would be like expecting a good superhero movie from the director of after the sunset and red dragon.. -
I saw it, I own a multi-generational dub (and that for $25 back in the early '90s), and I must say it stinks. Reed's gray hair looks phony, Doom's armor looks like plastic, and when they finally throw in the stretching and flaming effects, they look like they were in an early '90s movie that cost $1 million, which it did. The Thing is rather cool, though he suffers from rubberiness and the actor inside being SMALLER than the actor playing Ben Grimm. But the acting isn't bad, especially Jay Underwood as Johnny.
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Is the way they review things on AICN. They'll spend six or seven paragraphs talking about the trip to the movie theater. Either get to the point or hire an editor.
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Jul 08, 2005 10:47:22 AM CDT
Let me be the first to say...Marvel/Fox has raped my childhood!
by mastershake
Seriously, the FF was the first comic I got into around age 9. It got me into comics in general, and led to my lifelong interest in Sci-Fi. To see the FF reduced to this steaming pile, it just breaks my heart. I will not reward Marvel/Fox with my money to see this in the theater, or rent it on DVD. It will be a long time before Marvel gets a dime from me again. Why they had to rush the production on the FF, and hire a hack like Storey, who couldn't direct his way out of a paper bag and has no concept of how to treat the material correctly, bogels the mind. Like many have said, it seems like Roth is trying to sabotage it's Marvel properties on purpose. Well, mission accomplished, Roth.
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I think Fox made a terrible decision hiring Tim Story to direct "Fantastic Four." He's a passable director of lowbrow ethnic comedy, but what did Fox see in "Taxi" or "Barbershop" that put him in the director's chair of "Fantastic Four"? Did they enjoy the hamfisted interplay of white and black people? Were they impressed by Story's ability to coax career-diving performances out of Queen Latifah and Jimmy Fallon? What, exactly, did they like? I've read three reviews of "Fantastic Four" so far, including Quinty's, and they're all been very negative for the same reasons: horrible script, slow to no plot development, subpar special effects, and unexciting action sequences. Gee, sounds great. No wonder Michael Chiklis was so fired up to get back on "The Shield." Go back to making uninspired ethnic comdies, Tim, because you suck as an action director.
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Jul 08, 2005 10:55:25 AM CDT
I guess unless it's grim and gritty, comic book fans don'
by cookylamoo
Batman may be a nutjob who dresses up like a flying rodent, but as long as they take him "seriously" then I'm not just a fat geek living my life on a computer screen. Uhh, sure. Look, go see the FF and then rent yourself "The Station Agent". Then figure which group of freaks showed you a better time.
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I've been reading the talkbacks for a while now about FF. And I have heard so much unjustified trashing of this movie, it's insane. Here it is folks: These wannabe Roger Eberts that give us their expert opinion on a movie they've never seen just want to see the film fail. It's because they're selfish in what they want in a movie. They actually believe that the movie would be soooooo much better if only they had some input. Well guess what? These movies aren't being made for you assholes, you've already got your "perfect" medium in the form of the comics they're based on. They're being made for a WIDER AUDIENCE, to have let's say, some more UNIVERSAL APPEAL. And if you take it as such, you can actually enjoy youself. I went and saw FF last night and you know what? Pretty fucking entertaining. Period. It wasn't a cinematic masterpiece, but pretty damn good. The movie was what it was, a somewhat campy SUPERHERO movie that stays true to the spirit of the comic. Maybe not all 600 or whatever issues, but at least to the original. Including some necessary changes, obviously no one will accept that Doom is some scarred maniac from some made-up country, it's just crazy to even suggest it. The X-men movies took , to me, some real liberties in changing things about the comics that I didn't really like, but it needed to be done to make a good movie. And even with all the flaws, I loved those movies. I took the fact that I'm a HUGE X-men geek and set it aside to enjoy someone's way of telling that story. And be prepared for this movie to do better than the naysayers are telling you. I went to a PACKED midnight showing with a group of over 10 people who haven't even heard of the FF before the movie who all loved it. This is who the movie is made for. And before you say the obvious : "They're just typical moviegoers that like shitty movies", know that these people know REAL shitty movies when they see them, and we can actually enjoy ourselves without nitpicking EVRYTHING. Just enjoy the damn thing. So either take the movie for what it is: an ADAPTATION of the comics in order to work in movie format, or don't watch it. And don't try to ruin it or sabatoge it for everyone else that might enjoy it.
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is an average pretty girl. She's all makeup and hair and (fake?) tits. You want gorgeous, take a good look at Cate Blanchett or her elder, similarly beautiful woman, Helen Mirren -- especially in her youth. http://tinyurl.com/87t4s http://tinyurl.com/8ygh2
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Jul 08, 2005 11:00:37 AM CDT
".......making shit is more profitable than making an intelligen
by kai_mah'gra
.....yeah, I just like how people keep praising Batman Begins as the best thing since sliced bread or in this case as an "intelligent superhero film", yet somehow never managing to explain how it is that the villain in the movie, who intends to spread Scarecrow's hallucinogen through the city of Gotham by vaporizing the city's main water supply, is able to get away with vaporizing water from beneath the city under layers of concrete and the metal pipes via the microwave device, and yet somehow everyone including and especially Batman and Ras-Al-Gul themselves, who even have a final fight sequence within close proximity of the weapon are not affected by it despite the fact that they are presumably human beings. Human beings, you see, just happen to be 70% water-based, by body mass. If you happen to remember high school physics, microwaves (and by extension any kind of Electromagnetic radiation)heat up objects by supplying the water molecules within them, with vibratory energy. So it's kind of hard to imagine that a weapon with that kind of power (an amusing leap in scientific logic in and of itself, considering that this is microwaves we're talking about) to penetrate as far as it did and to vaporize as much water as it did in the Islet first and then presumably next in the city, and with that kind of range, is oddly, selective enough to somehow avoid every single human being, above the surface and who seem bear no resistance to that kind of Electrmagnetic radiation beyond regular clothing; these people, as well as the scientific laws governing their bodies, apparently are unfamiliar with the concept of leaving a pizza pop in a microwave oven too long. Yes, yes, I know nitpicking. But if Quint here is going to question the science behind the uniforms of the Fantastic 4 team (......and while we're at it, why not just question Spiderman's ability to produce all that webbing without suffering any considerable loss in body mass?), I thought it would only be fair to hold the paragon of comicbook movie excellence ( at least in geekdom's opinion anyway) of this year, Batman Begins, to the same lofty standards. I mean, it's only fair, particularly when you consider the fact that Nolan did after all set out to make a 'Real' world or 'realistic' Batman movie devoid of loopy movie magic science, and on the other hand Marvel have always insisted that FF4 is a summer popcorn flick for nothing more than entertainment value. I know I will get flamed for this given just how many people having been singing hosannas and drooling over Batman Begins ( even in this talkback alone), but I always like to believe that my high school science counted for something. But to be fair it was a great movie up until the point they decided to use the microwave the city's water supply schtick. It's almost as if these writer's are on a roll end then suddenly hit a wall about two-thirds into the script and then decide to fill the rest of the script with fuzzy science just to finish the story. Don't even get me started on WOTW. Do these guys ever spend any part of their budget on science consulants AT ALL??? Anyway, that's just me; for the next time someone else proclaims Batman Begins as the most incredible movie experience since Gone with the wind. As fo Fantastic four I will go and watch it with an open mind and obviously low expectations as I don't expect Shakespeare or any Oscar contenders this time of year; despite what AICN says about it.
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Here's what struck me as interesting, and perhaps the most telling. Everyone has nitpicks before a movie. (Does anyone remember noorganicwebshooters.com or whatever it was?) There were so many nitpicks about the X-Men movie it was hard to keep track. Batman Begins had its share as well. The most telling thing about a movie is if it's good enough (as much as something as subjective as entertainment can be called that) to make people FORGET their nitpicks. So far with what we've seen, for the most part it hasn't. Some things like the casting of Chris Evans or the Thing 'peanuts-in-you-turd suit', people are less vocal about. Strangely enough I don't hear anyone complaining about Alicia Masters anymore. Does this mean she's adequate or merely forgettable?
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Yet another reason to hate Fox.
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Quint gives the real review. He hates it, and says so. Harry hates it, but says he likes it so he can keep getting free perks from the studios and comic companies.
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Yes I've taken physics, and you might want to yourself. I think we're to understand that it was a MASER, a microwave laser which fires coherent electromagnetic waves in the 30 centimeter range of the spectrum. The reason you'd be unaffected even standing right next to it, is the same reason you wouldn't get burned by a laser that's not pointed right at you. The microwave oven analogy doesn't apply. Although I haven't done the math, the only problems I see are 1) Having a direct line of sight to be able to vaporize so much water, although you only have heat a certain amount of it to boiling point and via conduction, the water around it will boil as well. and 2) No one is seemingly burned by the steam, which is highly suspect.
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Ang Lee blew it. Figured he might since Crouching Tiger was LAME. Daredevil got much more right about it's character than Hulk did. FF looks low budget all the way, but might be fun... Kinda like the first X-Men.
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Jul 08, 2005 11:15:39 AM CDT
True Dat, Brock / More Alba Discussion -- Her No Nudity Thang
by zombiesolutions
it's nice that people can disagree and not trash each other or hurl insults. peace, bro. /// btw, of course everyone on earth wants to see Alba naked, but apparently she's one of those puritanical girls who just won't do it. (something about her father disowning her if she did nude for SIN CITY?). but, if i recall correctly, she does have a brief nude scene in THE PILLOW BOOK which nobody saw. i guess we'll all have to wait until her career is over and she HAS to do nude scenes. by which time her youth will be gone and nobody will care. whattashame! itsa crime i tellsya!
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Jul 08, 2005 11:15:45 AM CDT
So the Triplets of Biasedville: Harry, Eberrt & Ropert don't
by enter4none
Sounds like something worth expending a bit of a weekend...
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The Roger Corman version is very hard to find. If you know a geek who goes to comic conventions they can usually find a bootleg. That's how I saw it, through a friend. And now? Well, I hate my friend for inflicting it on me. The Roger Corman version is horrible! Imagine the old Batman TV series from the 60's with really terrible special effects, the kind that makes a movie like Robot Jox seem like Revenge of the Sith. That is how bad it is, and it never seems to end. I had more entertainment watching Sandler's "Going Overboard" or Antohny Michael Hall in "Hail Ceasar." As for the new version, see the Corman version first and this one seems like a masterpiece. I tend to knock the Hulk, and have recently discovered the Daredevil Director's cut is actually pretty good. But both of these movies are better than the new F4 flick. I agree with the earlier post, buy a ticket to batman and sneak into F4 if you must see it.
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The movie contains one of the all-time great "bad movie" moments. Doctor Doom's henchmen come to kidnap Alicia Masters. They sneak up behind her and do the standard "chloroform rag over the mouth" bit to render her unconscious. And we get the standard point-of-view shot from her, seeing the bottom half of the screen covered by the rag and then the rest of the image going from clear to fuzzy to black, as to show us what she is seeing as it happens. Pretty standard for numerous low-budget action movies. One problem though. The character of Alicia Masters is completely, totally, and in all ways, blind.
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She may be average but I would never kick her out of bed for eating crackers. She is better than most of the guys on this board can do in real life, me included. CB is nice too, but Alba is still really hot dude. Not slammin ya, just saying. Me personally, I prefer another Kate. Beckinsale is the hottest thing on my planet. Feel free to knock if you want. I'd still take Alba if she were lying on my bed in the F4 blue spandex.
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Jul 08, 2005 11:26:35 AM CDT
That way you'll NEVER get to see the Sub-Mariner or a Gigant
by cookylamoo
Kill the Franchise and make some fat geek think he's a critic.
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He looks like the sort of person you want to smash in the face as soon as you meet them. http://www.iesb.net/videointerviews/tomrothmanffpint.php
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Nothing like a Helen Mirren talkback comment. This is better than Penthouse Letters.
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Jul 08, 2005 11:35:31 AM CDT
"One problem though. The character of Alicia Masters is complete
by adambalm
Holy shit I collapsed on the floor after reading this. I remember that! For some reason it was real late at night and I didn't think twice about it. Fuck me running, that's brilliant. Also, this is another reason why I suspect the modern FF is a little less than 'mediocre'. Because when I saw the Corman version, my expectations were so low that I remember feeling the exact same thing that people describe after walking out of this one. 'Wow, that didn't suck as bad as I thought it would...' I think I'd put more stock in the reviews of those like Ebert and several other critics who see this without the baggage that we have. (Having ben told this was a total train wreck since day one, so even Daredevil or Batman Forever level bad would be enough to make us change our tune.)
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superman 1 & 2,
batman 1 & 2, (haven't seen begins)
spiderman 1 & 2,
x-men 1 & 2,
and HULK RULED! -
Jul 08, 2005 11:40:49 AM CDT
Shold have skipped the cliche Origin Movie and jumped right into
by fred
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....yeah, somebody needs to take high school physics (again; or at least get you're money back - you wuz robbed) but it's definitely not me. Water (obviously as liquid state) doesn't heat up by CONVECTION, more specifically convectional currents. ANybody who claims to have teken high school physics and goofs up on that one should be publicly pilloried at stake. I tried to dumb down my explanation to basics and leave out the MASER aspect of it so as not to get bogged down on technical terms but, if you want to get technical, I'll bite. The microwave oven analogy applies, Einstein, at the most basic of scientific principles; how in the world, do you imagine the water gets its heat energy under those circumstances if not from the increase in molecular vibratory energy from the Microwaves ( even as a MASER, which still does the same thing although from a focused, phased and coherent beam.)And since you brought it up, how do you explain the scientific rationale of expanding the range of effect the MASER wide enough to heat up the water over the area of the city that it did; you did after all corerctly mention that is was a focused coherent beam, right. That kind of science only exists in the annals of Star Trek lore and even then you're still faced with the exact same problem I pointed out - the problem of it being selective enough as to boil water underneath in the city yet, avoiding the water in the bodies of everybody above. ( in my original post this was the route I assumed they took - of widening the beam to achieve this - but seeing as you saw it different then ok, let's run with that and I will advise you to watch the movie again and in particular the last fight between Batman and Ras, and you will see more than once do they cross, in the midst of their struggle, in front of what can be presumed to be the front of the Maser's sight line without getting affected whatsoever even as it was running at that time. In fact even before Batman got to the train, I clearly recall Ras and his henchmen casually walking back and forth in front of, behind and around the machine after it was turned on without getting affected. How do you explain any of that, Mr "I've-taken-physics-myself" ? Good thing you brought up the steam too, seeing as it was under enough heat pressure to knock out a whole bunch of manhole covers from the holes. That kind of energy tends to carry a great deal of heat. And to generate that kind of energy the Electromagnetic Radiation of the Maser has to be of far shorter waverlength that they would cease to become Masers and as the physics dictates, become lasers. Still, one out of two ain't bad, so maybe you;'re high school physics career wasn't as complete loss. B+ for effort!!!
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Obviously, I meant to say that water doesn't heat up by Conduction as you stated in your post but rather through Convection and convectional currents. OR to be more scientifically accurate, heat does not spread through water conduction but rather via convectional currents
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Stan Lee said that no one was ever supposed to see the Corman FF. It was made badly on purpose. They were going to lose the film rights if they didn't do something with FF, so they hired Corman to make the movie on cheep, knowing that no one would ever see it (except for those of us who get bootlegs at comic con). Too bad that the cheesey Corman version is better than the New F4. Don't waste your money. See Land of the Dead. It may suck, but it's far better than this pile of crap.
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If it wasn't for having Gandalf and Van Helsing then I would say FF has an equal first movie to X-Men. Yes, you can feel some weakness in the movie and it is rather short for what we come to expect from superhero movies, but, it was between Daredevil and X-Men for me. I never gave a shit about the FF growing up, so, I just wanted to see a good superhero movie. This movie was really fun. If I could say one thing about it... you can feel the budget restraints and the character development cuts. It's like you can hear them saying "ok, we don't want another Hulk here. So, we're not 'over doing the special effects' and we are not going to have any of that talking stuff anymore than neccesarry" BUT it didn't feel like this came from the director. This director feels like he did the best he could and that YES he does get the material. I look forward to seeing a sequel and Tim Story getting to up the bar on FF2. I can see that he has it in him. ALSO... I'm sorry, but, for being nerds and geeks, everyone,even the AICN staff, are being a little daft about this movie. The characters are ripped RIGHT off of the pages of the comic. Dr. Doom is from Latveria, however you spell that, and it seems pretty obvious to me that he is heading back in the end and will OBVIOUSLY begin his world domination by taking over his home country. Is that NOT obvious to you guys? You know what... I think that Harry didn't hate this and is hopeful for a sequel that is great because it is pretty clear that this was a riskless origin movie and that it has set itself up for some fantastic sequels. Anyway, I gotta go to work.
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Why do they a bother making a the remakes? They suck alla the time! He he, Dino make a with a the funny! So anyway... my favorite part inna the Corman film was a when the FF, they trapped inna the stasis beam, or a whatever the hell it was, anna you just gotta watch a the kid playin' the Torch-a-Man... he's a TERRIBLE! I piss a my pants I laugha so hard at how bad he is inna that scene! He jumpin' around like he got a the taser inna his ass!
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MNS did the best translation from one genre to another, without the camp elements. And you'd have to say that the original Matrix is pure superhero, whether it's an adaptation or not. I agree with the earlier post that suggested that the nitpicking only really happens with the bad films -- fans are much more open to change if it can be pulled off successfully.
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Jul 08, 2005 12:13:45 PM CDT
Yes, El Borak, HULK did rule. Never understood why that movie go
by man of stool
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Jul 08, 2005 12:15:37 PM CDT
Lately, I hear more and more people go "HULK ruled!" I think it
by man of stool
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the movies suck. Like some of you have said: If hollywood knows that making shitty movies makes more money then they will keep doing them. How much did it cost to make this FF movie? 40 million? I don't know, but by the opinions here and the crappy trailers I've seen it looks like shit to me. The only films I've seen in a theater this YEAR are Revenge of the Sith and Batman Begins. Both are 'event' movies that have to be seen in a theater. But crap like FF and others aint even worth renting on DVD. I've watched B-movie Asian cinema that's better than the bile Hollywood put out. Pop culture is bathing in its own demise. ROFL. The movie remake of The Dukes of Hazzard will continute that trend since it has the wrong elements in place, ie actors and actress that don't fit. You go ahead and bitch about losing money Hollywood, because it aint my loss. It's yours. ___KNEEL___
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A review from Fantastic Four scribe Peter David(PAD)
In the interest of full disclosure, I will state what most of you already know: I wrote the novelization of "Fantastic Four." So obviously it's to my benefit for the film to do well. Anyone who feels that linkage to the film colors my opinion can disregard it as he or she sees fit.
Now--
Just came back from the FF screening in the city. I heard a number of adults crabbing about how terrible it was, and I was left wondering whether they saw the same film I did. I then asked every kid I could find who was in attendance what they thought of it, and kids of (literally) all ages loved it. Girls liked Sue Storm, boys grooved on the Thing and, particularly, the Human Torch. No one loved Reed. But, hey, what else is new?
Whatever you're expecting in terms of the more mature angle that comic book films have taken, be it "Batman Begins," "Sin City," or even the sophistication of X2...to enjoy "Fantastic Four," you simply have to set the wayback machine in your mind back to when comic books (and movies thereof) were mostly cornball fun. Think "Superman" but without the camp. Some mild spoilers follow:
It's a well-made film with some wince-worthy dialogue that you then realize could have (and possibly did) come straight out of Silver Age FF, and a lot of sequences that just nail the entire squabbling-yet-loving family nature of the FF. The film is at its best when it keeps it small. The character interactions, the throwaway casual uses of their powers. Johnny's tormenting of Ben, including a hilarious practical joke while the Thing is sleeping. And you sit there and say, "That's the FF."
When it goes big, there are stumbles. The main problem centers on Doctor Doom. My concern was not that they changed Victor Von Doom from a Latverian monarch to a corporate douche bag. My concern is that Von Doom blames Reed Richards for the accident that essentially ruined Von Doom's life. In the comic book, this blame is misplaced. In the film, it's not. That Von Doom goes bonkers as a result doesn't change the fact that Reed really IS responsible. I'll grant you, that's consistent with the comic in that Ben blames Reed for rushing them into space without the proper shielding in place. But the thrust of the comic isn't Ben trying to kill Reed as a consequence. In this case, the FF isn't battling a supervillain so much as they are doing damage control, cleaning up after the mess the themselves made (or at least that Reed made).
But there's more than enough in the film to make it worthwhile nevertheless. The Thing should defnitely be seen on a big screen, because all the cries of "Foam rubber" were misplaced. Between the acting, the sound effects, and a few CGI boosts, you'll believe a man can be made out of rock. And the must-see of the film remains the Human Torch. Basically he's an exuberant jackass, but hey, again, that's Johnny. That he's not callow doesn't bother me. After all, he grew up and married a Skrull in the comics, so why not just start with him as the older model? Instead of being a teen and thus expected to be a jerk, he's a guy who refuses to grow up. Johnny Storm with the ultimate in Peter Pan syndrome considering he really DOES learn to fly.
Several key scenes were in the script but not in the film, which would have topped two hours had they been there. These include an entire sequence with Ben attending a soiree at Alicia's art gallery, and Johnny running afoul of a football star and his date at a singles bar. I'll be interested to see if they show up back in the eventual DVD release, as they were excellent scenes (although admittedly they didn't advance the plot much.)
Bottom line, go in expecting a hip, up-to-date rethinking and redefining of the FF, and you're largely going to be disappointed. Expect a reasonably faithful (Von Doom issues aside) translation of the style, spirit and stories of the Silver Age of comics, and you'll have a great time.
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M.Knight, he a blew it with a the Unbreakable movie! 3 reasons offa the top a my head... 1) He start a the movie with a the title card that says something about a how many funny books are sold each year... right away, he turns off half a the audience (i.e. the chicks) so that they don' care about a the rest a the movie. 2) If a Bruno, he can't take a the water, why not a show him getting a sick inna the morning every time he take a the shower? Like he have a the smoker's cough, but a he don't smoke, eh? 3) He make a the point to get Sammy Jackson to say "ooh, I'm a your arch-a-nemesis, anna everybody know that the arch-a-nemesis is a the opposite to a the hero... you unbreakable, my bones, they a break easy." So then they make a the big deal about a how Bruno get sick inna the water, then why not a show a scene with a the Sammy inna the physical therapy pool, showin' us how the water make him a feel strong, anna he can move gracefully without a worrying about his a bones a breaking, eh? Holy crappa, I getta so pissed just thinkin' about it! He BLEW it! B-L-E-W it! Iffa I made a that movie, I would have done it a right! Shoot it! Print it! Inna the can! OLD SCHOOL, BABY!
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Have they been shoving this movie up our asses or what? Nothing else this summer, except maybe Episode III got as much pub as did Fantastic Four. Batman, which was excellent felt like it just snuck up on me. Anyway, everything I've now heard about it coupled with the unrelenting promotion on every friggin TV commercial and news show, website, whatever really just makes me hate it past Swamp Thing status. Having said that, low expectations usually means I will like something about it so...that reminds me: I finally saw Man-Thing this week and I have to say that even though the writing sucked, it was surprisingly atmospheric and watchable. The swamp rockd and the creature was relatively tits too; I'm glad they went for the evil creature angle rather than the action hero angle of the Swamp Thing movies.
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Jul 08, 2005 12:31:05 PM CDT
Hulk was interesting, and you've gotta admire Ang Lee's
by serious black
...it went against the expectations of like 90% of the viewing public who only knew the TV Hulk. Nobody wanted angst and repressed memories and flashbacks. They wanted Hulk smash. I admire the film but Marvel has only themselves to blame for not recognizing what people wanted to see and giving it to them. I still maintain the biggest downer in the film is Jennifer Connelly. Every line she delivers is painful. We know Bruce is glum and dark, but we needed a more energetic Betty to contrast Bana's performance. If they'd edited out most stuff with Connelly and Nolte, the many redundant flashbacks, and the final father/son battle, you'd have ended up with a 90 minute summer blockbuster that would have done gangbusters at the boxoffice because everything else in the movie kicks ass. It's just weighed down too heavily with boring psychobabble bullshit.
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Always happens when The Hulk is dropped into the same catagory as Daredevil or Batman & Robin or Electra. All us Hulk lovers trickle out. Those other superhero adaptations are not in the same league as Ang Lee and company actually had a vision and an original idea between them. And no pop culture references or nu-metal soundtrack. Nevermind in my top 5 comic movies it's in my top 5 films. Love Unbreakable also.
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Jul 08, 2005 12:36:13 PM CDT
Peter a David (hey, he gotta the a in name already)
by dinodelaurentiis
Here's a the deal... to alla the plants anna the wonks at a the Fox: you canna have it a both ways. You canna say you made a the changes to the funny book to make it a accessible to a the modern audience, anna then go anna say that the script is a bad because it was a supposed to be a like a the silver age funny books. An' another thing... you say the adults, they a don' like it, but a the children of alla the ages, like say, immature adults with a the minds of a dummies? will like it. That doesn't sound a too good...
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Jul 08, 2005 12:43:32 PM CDT
I edited my Hulk DVd and took out the opening sequence and the f
by justice41
I opened with Banner Just changing back from the hulk then started with Banner riding his bike and ended when Hulk changed back to Banner on the hill. I like the idea of starting with a semi hulk to get the audience jazzed seeing the Hulk then lead into the telling of how he became the hulk. Anything before or after those scenes are useless. I tossed in a few of the opening scenes in as flashbacks like when Banner is dreaming after being exposed and when he's in his old house with Betty. It was a bitch getting rid of the type and creating a new opening title sequence to match the score.
Man I wish I had had a DVD burner at the time. I may do it again now that i do have one.
Anyway the movie was a quality movie with bad storytlling and bad editing. -
...again it's partially Jennifer Connelly's fault, but also partially the script's fault. We never get to buy into the fact that Bruce and Betty are in love. Sure, she resembles his dead mama, but there's no scene that really sells their love for each other. A great performance out of Connelly could have conveyed those feelings without verbalizing them, but we didn't get a great performance. Consequently, when Bruce gives himself up to the army at the end just because Betty shows up, we're all like "huh?" What happened?
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I said conduction, not convection. If you can't even get that right, there's not much more I can help you with. Thermal CONDUCTION is heat transfer within a solid, liquid or gas. Put a hot coal in water, the coal with get colder as the surrounding water gets hotter according to the second law of thermodynamics. Convection is circulation within a fluid, either liquid or gas. "how in the world, do you imagine the water gets its heat energy under those circumstances if not from the increase in molecular vibratory energy from the Microwaves!!!!!!111111" It's called dialectric heating, buddy. And it wouldn't cause anything but the water being hit by the MASER to become superheated. You see, water is a good conductor, which is why it's used to cool things like car engines and space suits. Air is a good insulator, and poor conductor of heat. This is why foam and feathers are good at insulating, because they trap heat. So, the short answer is a substance is heated, its thermal energy transforms into what's called kinetic energy, as you can see by the steam blowing off manholes as you mentioned. What this means is that unless you're flash burned by the steam, the microwaves aren't going to affect you because lasers by their nature aren't ambient, they're coherent. Because the microwave energy was transformed into thermal energy which was transformed into kinetic energy as the steam shot everywhere and slowly cooled, as once again, CONDUCTION took hold. However, if they did pass in front of the beam, which I don't recall, that would have done something yes. But reread your own post, that's not what you were saying. "So it's kind of hard to imagine that a weapon with that kind of power (an amusing leap in scientific logic in and of itself, considering that this is microwaves we're talking about) to penetrate as far as it did and to vaporize as much water as it did in the Islet first and then presumably next in the city, and with that kind of range, is oddly, selective enough to somehow avoid every single human being, above the surface and who seem bear no resistance to that kind of Electrmagnetic radiation beyond regular clothing; these people, as well as the scientific laws governing their bodies..." But a MASER's effect is that selective, because it's only effective along a specific vector and now you're doing a 'Oh, I knew that all along...' You weren't arguing that anyone passed in front of the beam. Though nice try. Anyway, without doing the math (If you really want me to, I will), I'd say that it the MASER would not be enough to heat the entire city's water supply. At first I thought that since it wouldn't have a line of sight, that it wouldn't be very likely, but theoretically it could heat it through the sewer pipes, plumbing, etc as long as all the water was continuous and wasn't blocked off by dams or walls. But I'd need to know the values of 1) the watt output of the MASER 2) the amount of water in a city's water supply. If you can get me those two values, you can extrapolate it based on water having a specific heat capacity of 4,200 j/kg, meaning that's how much you have to heat it to get it to raise its temperature one unit. You know, this could be fun. Anyone know what these two values would be? You might be partially correct in needing a shorter wavelength. However, my guess is that the shorter the wavelength, the more localized the effect would be. It would probably vaporize anything within, say a few blocks, but then it would drop off proportional to distance from there, so that it would take days to heat anything up on the other side of town.
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He wanted everyone to be subdued in their performance so even when they should have gone wacko and screaming he wanted them to hold it in and not over react. He said as much in interviews and on the DVD. This is why almost everyone spoke in such hushed tones. That really annoyed me.
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I got a good bootleg DVD off ebay. It's a Corman movie, cheesy as all hell. If you like MST3K-type movies, you'd enjoy this for its badness . . . on the other hand, if you really like FF you might be offended. As someone else said, the Thing suit is the best effect, everything else is really bad, down to the foley for Dr. Doom cracking his gauntlets. It sounds like somebody chewing on several Jolly Ranchers at once. The Renaissance Faire rejects shrieking "A Queen? A Queen!" are even more awesome than the guy in "Quest of the Delta Knights" screaming "I'm comiiinnngg!!!!"
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Jul 08, 2005 12:53:47 PM CDT
Not to mention the Mutant Poodle which is where I gave up.
by cookylamoo
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He gave a long wordy review but truth be told, he probably is just being kind to save his job more then anything else. The point if that FOX and most importantly marvel has not learned their lesson.
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er, that should read trap pockets of air, not heat. Of course it traps heat.
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Jul 08, 2005 12:58:49 PM CDT
There were people on the streets who should have been flash frie
by justice41
But Eh it's a movie not reality. The Military is working on a Maser. Saw something about it on Discovery. They are hoping to be able to use it to destroy missles The demo they showed worked real well but the battery or power supply could not be sustained for more than a few seconds. It ws cool it was mounted on top of a modified Humvee.
So if you take what does exist and make it a comic book version then yes it would work exactly the way it did in BB's except for one problem. The power supply. It would take a small nuke reactor to power the one in BB's for as long as it was running. Maybe they tapped into the Electricity that was running the Train. Who knows. It wasn't the best device to come up with but it worked well enough. -
Jul 08, 2005 12:59:54 PM CDT
I don't know why people keep blaming Story, when it's FO
by the founder
Story was just their to shoot the damn film. This film was already set to go.
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But conduction is still taking place, because there's heat differences there.
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The reason convection is not the primary means of heat transfer here is that, without something moving it along, such as a fan or pump, convection is incredibly slow, using earth's gravity to pull down the denser, colder regions, while the hotter lighter ones rise. This effect wouldn't do much when you're flash vaporizing water to steam in seconds.
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Jul 08, 2005 1:11:57 PM CDT
Get ready X-men fans 'cuz I can see the same reviews ...
by lost skeleton
next Summer. I betch you can just cut and paste the reviews from FF to X-3 next year. Fox just sucks...and by the way the Hulk is one of the best comic-book movies ever made.
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The Corman Version of FF can be had pretty cheaply if you know where to look. It's all over ebay. I got a dvd copy from a local collector's show for 10 bucks. One of the stories behind the Corman film was that, the films producers knew they where just going to shelve the film but that one else involved in production was aware of this fact. The production of Corman FF film was covered in the media just like any other movie (I remember seeing the trailer at the San Diego Comic-con that year) Everyone thought it was coming out. The actors made sacrifices trading salary for a share of profits and merchandising. When the film was shelved the bootlegs starting popping up on VHS. A friend showed it to me and my feeling was that I felt bad for the people involved in the production. Despite all it's flaws, it looks like they really cared about the film. Had it been released back in the day it would have been a Kids film. Fanboys would not have been pleased, but kids would have loved it. Costing only million dollars to make it couldn't have not made money. It would have sold toys, and kids would have watched in VHS endlessly. After reading some of these talkbacks, I can't believe that people are being ultra critical of a bootleg copy (IE poor video quality) of a movie that 1. Was never meant to be released in the first place, and 2. Was made on a budget so tiny (By comparison) that it probably wouldn't have even covered the catering costs of the current FF film (OK, so I'm exaggerating a little bit....but not much). Does this mean that I think the Corman FF film is good? No (I still cringe at that closing shot of Reed waving goodbye). But it is fun to watch. I remember reading that the Corman FF had more special effects shots than Terminator. There is something admirable to the fact that they even managed to make a special effects movie on a budget that should have made it Impossible. They where doomed from the start (no pun intended) and yet they fought on anyway.
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Jul 08, 2005 1:30:00 PM CDT
Opinions of this have remained "It's bad but not as bad as I
by archduke_chocula
and then they give it high marks for not completely fucking up, i'll check it out but i'm not holding out much hope. Also, if this makes more than Batman Begins, Christian Bale will HUNT you down.
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Jul 08, 2005 1:30:21 PM CDT
In the year 1997, a gem named SPAWN graced the big screen. It wa
by man of stool
Seriously...
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Jul 08, 2005 1:32:17 PM CDT
Studios make crap like this, which costs $9.75 to see at the loc
by doc_strange
Then the MPAA wonders why people continue to download movies. Movies like these should cost matinee prices from 15 years ago, $2.50 tops. Hell, a dollar....... maybe.
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Tell em Fred!
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As long as were trashing other superhero movies, I've got to bring up my hate for Spider-Man 2. There's some great sequences of Spidey and Doc Ock action in this movie, but to me this one is far more painful than Hulk. Parker had his share of problems in the comics, but he was never such a depressed, whiny pansy as he is in this movie. Doc Ock's motivation and his giant magnet ball are ridiculous. Mary Jane is awful. Why does Parker even wear a mask now if everybody knows his identity? And why does every supervillain have such a personal connection to Parker? It seems the movie Spider-Man causes more problems than he fixes (kinda like some people are saying about FF.) What gets me is how everybody thinks Spider-Man 2 is so great and then craps on far better superhero movies. Spider-Man 2 is not a good movie.
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...adambalm and Kai. That shit is fascinating. Seriously. But you guys don't have access to, like, tools or anything, do you? That could get scary pretty quick.
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FF PREMIERE A DISASTER
BY DF NEWS
Torrential rains and a balky projector led to the cancellation of the July 6 world-premiere screening of Fox's FANTASTIC FOUR movie on New York's Liberty Island, Variety reported. Guests were scheduled to arrive on the island by 7 p.m. and the film's cast by 7:30, with the screening to begin at 9. But shortly after 6:30, just as a ferry dropped off at least 150 members of the New York press, a torrential downpour put plans on hold, stranding guests on the mainland and the press and publicists under a wooden, sideless roof on the island.
Fox executives and cast members, including Tom Rothman, Hutch Parker and Ioan Gruffudd, holed up in the Ritz Carlton hospitality suite and debated moving the premiere to the Regal Cinemas Battery Park, before electing to go ahead with Liberty Island, where a barbecue, outdoor stage and fireworks show were already set up, the trade paper reported.
The cast didn't show until almost 9, and by then workers had successfully toweled down all the seats and repainted the splotchy screen, which had sent a torrent of white paint into the gutter during the storm. Rangers, ferry workers and SWAT team members, all working overtime, looked on as the reasonably good-natured guests waited for another hour while film's actors and producers ran through the press line. The screening finally got under way around 10:20, after a fireworks show, only to have the projector break down 10 minutes later. By then the crowd rushed to fill the two boats heading back to shore. After reaching shore at 11, any guest still willing could hop into one of Fox's limos for a latenight screening at Battery Park, the trade paper reported. FANTASTIC FOUR opens to the public on July 8.
-- SCIFI WIRE
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Alba looks like any given cute cheerleader from any given high school. I *might* sleep with her if I found she has half a brain, which I doubt from having seen her in interviews. I like smart women, ergo Blanchett and Mirren. Beckinsale is lovely, but to me she looks manufactured, a bit of a Zeta-Jones imitation. I have always liked faces and bodies with a little more character, which may explain why I am attracted largely to "mature" actresses these days. Blanchett isn't really "mature," but she looks like she's lived a bit, and not by tearing around from club to club. But you are entitled to your opinion, naturally, and I respect our differences.
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.....Speaking of FF DVD bootlegs. Somehow, Someway, there has got to be a way to get a bootleg copy of the campy 60
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arads gonna have alot of wristbands before the year is out. If he runs out of room on his arms he can always sling a couple of those on his grape sized nutsack.
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You a *might* a sleep with her? *might*??? BWAHAHAHAHA! Tha's gotta be one a the funniest things onna this a talk-a-back so far. I piss a my pants I laugh a so hard. It's especially funny iffa you read it anna imagine it's a the Funny Book Guy from a the Simpsons. Didn' he anna Skinner's mama have a thing a goin' on for a while?
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Well, that would be alil redundant with Kai being a tool and all that, but I digress. But you know, I actually think it could kind of be fun if we tried to work some of the math out on this stuff. Not to nitpick or anything, but to see what you'd have to do so that it's possible. Like working out what you'd need to actually vaporize a city's water supply. That's something not that had to run the numbers on. I know there's people out there on AICN who are farther along in physics than me (And you'd kinda have to try pretty hard to be worse than Kai). Anyone wanna try this? I think it would be a cool game to get away from some of the negativity of thrashing movies and do something constructive.
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When are u gonna get offa your ass and make KING CONAN?
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This is giving Catwoman some serious competition for worst super hero movie. And you can tell the studio knows they have a stinker on their hands from the massive media blitz on this movie. I can't walk 3 feet without seeing the number 4!!!!! flashed in front of me or invading my eardrums on the radio. I guess the strategy is to cram in as many people as they can for opening weekend before it tailspins into 8th place the following weekend.
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Remember, Dino, nobody a-cried when Konk died, not even Dwan. Same-a for Dino. OK, maybe Raffaella And, yes, I *might* sleep with Alba. I don't care how good looking she is. I'd rather sleep with somebody smart and funny, which is why I'm with my wife and not some prettier women I've pursued. An old buddy told me I'm a "homelysexual," because I have more interest in less-conventionally attractive women. Whatever. The heart wants what it wants, to quote that perv, Woody Allen.
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Enh, it alla fall apart since a they show Arnie inna the Enquirer in his speedo with a his flabby body hangin' out alla over the place. The putz. I tell him "Arnie, why you gotta go anna wear that thing? Put onna the robe, nobody wants a to see a you like a that. You gonna be elected the President some-a-day, anna I could a make you big star again, but holy crappa, you look a like a the shit now!" It'sa over Johnny... IT'SA OVER! Arnie, he not a the Conan... he's a the flabby bastard.
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"I said conduction, not convection",...... YES and if you bothered to read or notice my follow-up post you might have realized that I did make a correction acknowledging that fact. That still doesn't make what you said any more correct, by any stretch of imagination. From http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/heatra.html:
"Conduction is heat transfer by means of molecular agitation within a material without any motion of the material as a whole."
...as in the there is no relative motion within the molecules of the materials hence the reason it is the primary means of heat transfer withing SOLIDS. Solids you see don't have relative molecular motion to the scale that liquids do. Conduction can occur in water as the primary means of heat transfer only when water is in solid form and hence known as ICE and likewise devoid of the molecular motion that convection entails. I don't believe, given the time of year that the movie potrayed, there was any ice beneath Gotham city. And that would rule out everything you said above regarding Conduction and Water in your rebuttal. If you think otherwise please provide me with evidence to prove that point! As for heat transfer in fluids and specifically liquids, again from the above source: ........."Convection is heat transfer by mass motion of a fluid such as air or WATER when the heated fluid is caused to move away from the source of heat, carrying energy with it.".......... That I have to explain this to you in plain black and white is embarrassing in and of itself. Heat is NOT NOT NOT NOT transferred in liquids primarily through CONDUCTION. It is transferred primarily through CONVECTION and CONVECTIONAL currents; which means the molecular motion of the heated water molecules from the heat source to the cooler parts of the fluid. And it does not simply mean, as you put it ,"circulation within a fluid" - there has to be heat transfer involved. That you couldn't even see your error the second time around and then compund it by capitalizing the word CONDUCTION and attempting to validate the argument is just ludicrously sad. I can't believe you don't even know this! As for your so-called "dialectric heating", (it's actually spelt diElectric heating, buddy, - there's no such thing as diAlectric heating and diAlectrics are an entirely different subject altogether) this time from http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9030384: "Dielectric Heating.....also called Capacitance Heating, method by which the temperature of an electrically nonconducting (insulating) material can be raised by subjecting the material to a high-frequency electromagnetic field. The method is widely employed industrially for heating thermosetting glues, for drying lumber and other fibrous materials, for preheating plastics before molding, and for fast jelling". ..........So the question I have for you is did you even know what the hell you were talking about or did you just feel like throwing out a complicated sounding term under the assumption or more likely, hope, that I couldn't possibly know what it means ( or heaven forbid, even look it up), with the aim of trying to drive home a fallacious argument? Dielectric heating is a specialized process performed under very specific lab (or industrial) conditions; I'm not even sure what to make of the fact that you felt that bringing it into your argument would infuse it with any semblance of validity. Just sad. By the way the only reason I'm providing references is so that you can check MY sources for yourself and not assume that I'm just pulling stuff out of my ass ( unlike some). Another thing I thought I should point out from your error filled rebuttal is when you say..."What this means is that unless you're flash burned by the steam, the microwaves aren't going to affect you because lasers by their nature aren't ambient, they're coherent." Buddy, MASERS and LASERS are NOT the same thing. Here you are chastizing me for not pointing them out to begin with and you can't even tell them apart. The wavelengths of photons from lasers are of a much lower value than those of a maser and hence the reason lasers carry more energy. And when you say that the microwaves are not going to affect the person like they will the water because they are coherent, are you aware that there's not way of aiming the MASER into the piped water system past the concrete, metal pipes sewer system and all without first going through whomever or whatever is on the surface first? My memory may be hazi but I strongly don't recall seeing a clear straight and unobstructed vector path to a/any specific open pipe of water in the movie. Unless of course the assumption then( wrongly, indubitibly ) is that the MASERs indeed can penetrate all that material and still maintain enough energy to raise the temperature of the water beneath the surface of the city to vapour point. Unlike you, I don't need to calculate anything to tell that with those wavelengths (Microwaves range to about >1400 micrometers from about 300micrometers) and given the time that the machine was on for, there's just not enough energy to pull that off. (and by the way I would really like to see your calculations since you keep offering to do them and especially considering all the faux pas' you've already committed; it should make for some amusing reading. I would really suggest you go an watch the movie again, specifically the fight scene at the end to see what I meant. And then I would suggest taking a refresher High School science course as well as refraining from trying to use "big" or complicated sounding terms during debates and arguments and essentially assuming that your audience is too stupid to look up the validity of what you're saying. Nice try though; a little research and forethought might have helped but nice try nonetheless. -
HAW! Thanks alot for putting that image back in my brain Dino.
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........yeah, well better a tool who knows his shit (or at least can actually take the time to research it) than a clueless clown who thinks he knows a few "big" words and some math. Speaking of which, I look forward with absolute glee to seeing your calculations as you offered to do - repeatedly I might add( unless of course you were, at the time talking out of your ass......as usual)
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Is this really worth the effort?
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Jul 08, 2005 2:27:44 PM CDT
How can anyone post a review by Peter David when that guy wrote
by fluffyunbound
That's like asking Uwe Boll to review House of the Dead.
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Kinda an arena bout of geekiness. One's armed with convection the other conduction and the crowd goes..meh!
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Can't we just say, "neener, neener, neener" and be done? Also, the plural of "faux pas" (fo [long "o"] pah') is "faux pas." Just like deer and sheep. Only French.
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Screw the convection/conduction stuff. Can you guys make a girl robot?
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...I really do think it's pretty awesome that there are people who can calculate exactly how much and of what type of energy it would take to vaporize a city's water supply. I can almost hear the automatic content filters activating the federal watch list protocols.
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Roland, I don't doubt their respective knowledge, but to me it's already got a bit old. They could go somewhere and argue in private. But your statement regarding the snoop software is a laugh except that it's frightening.
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I just got back from the Friday morning showing of Fantastic Four, where the next showing of FF was completely sold out. I hope this movie makes a lot of money and spawns sequels because I really think this ia a pretty darn-good, if not spectacular, start for the would-be franchise. I am 48 years old, so that would put me squarely in the "old-school" fan category, having grown up during the "Silver Age" of comics where having light-hearted fun with your super-heroes was more accepted. The Fantastic Four was always my favorite comic-book, and I was completely surprised at how much I enjoyed this movie, given the amount of negative reviews I have read. This movie really does capture the spirit of the early Fantastic Four comics and translates it successfully into another medium. Sorry, but I didn't notice or see any of the horrible special effects. I thought the casting was perfectly acceptable, and the acting, even Jessica Alba's was OK for me, and I'm not extremely easy to please. I think that the producers also deserve extra credit for trying something different with this movie in it's serio-comic appoach. I wouldn't have wanted another sour-puss of a movie like Batman Begins made with the FF in it. If you're not so into the bood-and-guts and extreme violence of many of the modern era's comics, chances are that you'll enjoy this super-hero fantasy. So, please, if you're on the fence, go see the movie and decide for yourself if it's good. Don't be run over by the runaway train of negativity on this talkback.
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Which translates to "Mixed or Average" reviews. That's not so bad.
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Just kidding. Based on the admittedly few positive reviews I've seen, I think this movie looks like a fun summer goofball movie that the whole family can enjoy. I'd rather my kid drag me to this shite than that fucking Sharkboy and Lava Girl.
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You're right, heat is not transferred primarily through conduction. I never said it conduction is always the primary means of heat transfer in liquids. It was transferred through conduction in this case, however. The common definition of thermal convection is 'The process of circulation that takes place in liquids and gases when there is a temperature difference between a liquid or gas.' This is best illustrated in the ocean currents and weather systems, occuring over a long period of time. I'm also slightly flattered that you cared enough about the misspelling of one letter to devote an entire paragraph to it. Especially someone who misread conduction as convection in one of my posts. And it's interesting that you had to go and look up the term on Encyclopedia Brittanica. But that's all you're doing here anyway. You say something you don't understand, (Like a microwave beam somehow cooking the surface inhabitants of the city) and then you have to google what I say to know what I'm talking about. "Dielectric heating is a specialized process performed under very specific lab (or industrial) conditions" Actually, dielectric heating is the method that microwaves heat up matter. Yeah, that pizza you brought up in your first argument? That's how your microwave oven heats that. Don't believe me? Check out Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven
"A microwave oven works by passing microwave radiation, usually at a frequency of 2450 MHz (a wavelength of 12.24 cm), through the food. Water, fat, and sugar molecules in the food absorb energy from the microwave beam in a process called DIELECTRIC HEATING." Wiz! Bow! Man, I rule. And you thought it was an industrial process? Fuck me running, this is fun. You didn't know that, even though that's the fundamental principle underlying your whole argument? Now you're gonna google s'more shit just to try to hold your already shaky ground. The means by which this would heat the water, as you can glean from the link is called dipole rotation. "Dipole rotation is the mechanism normally refered to as dielectric heating, a phenomenon most widely observable in the microwave oven where it operates most efficiently on liquid water." Liquid water, the exact subject we're talking about. Oh man, it sucks to be you at a time like this. See, don't try to keep up with me man. You'll just get hurt. I'm gonna post this twice just because it's so cool. -
You're right, heat is not transferred primarily through conduction. I never said it conduction is always the primary means of heat transfer in liquids. It was transferred through conduction in this case, however. The common definition of thermal convection is 'The process of circulation that takes place in liquids and gases when there is a temperature difference between a liquid or gas.' This is best illustrated in the ocean currents and weather systems, occuring over a long period of time. I'm also slightly flattered that you cared enough about the misspelling of one letter to devote an entire paragraph to it. Especially someone who misread conduction as convection in one of my posts. And it's interesting that you had to go and look up the term on Encyclopedia Brittanica. But that's all you're doing here anyway. You say something you don't understand, (Like a microwave beam somehow cooking the surface inhabitants of the city) and then you have to google what I say to know what I'm talking about. "Dielectric heating is a specialized process performed under very specific lab (or industrial) conditions" Actually, dielectric heating is the method that microwaves heat up matter. Yeah, that pizza you brought up in your first argument? That's how your microwave oven heats that. Don't believe me? Check out Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven
"A microwave oven works by passing microwave radiation, usually at a frequency of 2450 MHz (a wavelength of 12.24 cm), through the food. Water, fat, and sugar molecules in the food absorb energy from the microwave beam in a process called DIELECTRIC HEATING." Wiz! Bow! Man, I rule. And you thought it was an industrial process? Fuck me running, this is fun. You didn't know that, even though that's the fundamental principle underlying your whole argument? Now you're gonna google s'more shit just to try to hold your already shaky ground. The means by which this would heat the water, as you can glean from the link is called dipole rotation. "Dipole rotation is the mechanism normally refered to as dielectric heating, a phenomenon most widely observable in the microwave oven where it operates most efficiently on liquid water." Liquid water, the exact subject we're talking about. Oh man, it sucks to be you at a time like this. See, don't try to keep up with me man. You'll just get hurt. I'm gonna post this twice just because it's so cool. -
Jul 08, 2005 3:21:10 PM CDT
*watches as Kai frantically googles trying to figure out what I&
by adambalm
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it was fun and cool. Not a great film, but a fun film. And it had some eye poping speciall effects at times. Being a student of effects in film for the last 30 years, the majority looked spot on. Some were botched or underwhelming, but most were perfect. The thing costume was great as well. OF COURSE IT'S A SUIT!!!! You morons complain about perfect, unimpeachable CGI like the hulk, and then complain about perfect, emotionaly revealing costumes like the thing. WHat you fembots want is the real Hulk and Thing...oh wait... they don't exist!!! Geesh!!! Take a chill pill, buy some $10 popcorn and have some fun. You are probably the same guys looking for a deep emotional experience from a roller coaster.
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How bout you two duke it out over the super-string theory? Big Bang? The physics of baseball? And Kai how ya gonna rip the physics of Batman and then defend any of the science in FF? Yeah, your point will be that BB was supposed to keep it real and that FF is "popcornin fun" but c'mon, there's no science in the world that'll make Alba a grad of M.I.T!
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Jul 08, 2005 3:26:06 PM CDT
I'm rooting for adambalm, because I think Kai is a stupid na
by fluffyunbound
Also because once discussion goes on this long, isn't it kind of silly to view this as a science nitpick? I mean, to be a science nitpick, the error [if any] should be straightforward and obvious to a reasonable viewer. It shouldn't require people to duel with pocket protectors at 50 paces.
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A 40 out of 100 isn't bad? There aint no curves out there buddy, 40 is the lowest fucking cusp before we hit 39 on down and that's "Generally Negative Reviews". The highest score so far is only 75, which makes it a C+ at best. Hell man even Rupert's NY trashfest the Post gave it a 25!!! The Village Voice hasn't weighed in yet (30 or lower) to drag in down even more. Of course critical opinion has no say in terms of what a film will make or whether or not you, I, or anyone else will like it but don't try to pass off a fucking 40 as not so bad!
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Jul 08, 2005 3:35:14 PM CDT
We won't even get into the the Society of Shadows stupid pla
by cookylamoo
or teaching humanity morals by having the Gotham's population freak out on fear gas. And Oh Yeah, Ras, burning London. THAT did a whole lot of good.
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Jul 08, 2005 3:36:02 PM CDT
You guys are looking at this adambalm/Kai thing all wrong...
by childe roland
...to me, this would've been great dialogue for a young Reed vs. Victor Von Doom argument set in an MIT lab. It could've been going on in the background while Ben and Johnny are pulling each other's fingers up front. And then one of them sticks his head in the microwave to prove his point and POW! Instant scarma! So which one is Reed and which one is Doom? Discuss.
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I agree. I'm not one for nitpicking myself, on the science anyway. To me, it's a fun game to play. Like the crossword puzzle, me seeing how possible something is. I don't care if Peter Parker's spider powers are impossible (spiders and other insects are disproportionately strong because they are small, because of something called the inverse square.) but I don't give a shit. It would be fun to try and see what could give Parker the powers. Once, I just for the hell of it decided I wanted to see how realistic Superman would be. I picked one of his powers at random (Leaping a tall building in a single bound, I picked the empire state building) and I wanted to see if the energy he got from the sun could be transferred to do that. I looked up the average surface area of an adult male and used the data on the average light that falls on a square meter of land at the equator. (This is really fudging it because only a small part of Superman is going to get direct light.) I basically found that to jump the empire state building, he'd have to stand in three seconds of sunlight for every second he used to jump up there. This was maybe two years ago, so I can't remember all the values I used. But to me, this is fun. It's just fueling your imagination a bit, which is why we read the comics in the first place. I don't really care if the movies are accurate.
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Jul 08, 2005 3:39:28 PM CDT
You're right, heat is not transferred primarily through cond
by kai_mah'gra
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Jul 08, 2005 3:42:22 PM CDT
"You're right, heat is not transferred primarily through con
by kai_mah'gra
.....posted by adambalm. ...........just thought I'd let that one sink in for just moment. Let's have it again, savour it with me adambalm, "YOUR'RE RIGHT, heat is not transferred primarily through conduction."
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Kai: 'OMG, SPIDERS RNT TEH INSECTS FAGHEAD!!!' Just thought I'd beat the nitpicker to the punch.
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You'll really be savouring it when you get to the end.
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You realize, I hope, that this is roughly equivalent to a couple of teenagers making out passionately in public -- hand under the shirt, one leg between the other's legs. Get a room, physics fiends!
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Am I the only one who notices the trend here? The pseudo superior self proclaimed
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as for your response, you claim that you never said that Conduction was the primary means of heat transfer; No? but here's what you said ".....you only have heat a certain amount of it to boiling point and via CONDUCTION, the water around it will boil as well.". Yeah, that doesn't say Conduction to me too. And you're mocking me for googling stuff you wrote ( do you see any google links in my post?) and yet have Wikipidia as your primary scientific source? How amusing. FYI, the links I provided were not because I never knew what you were talking about ( nor that it was a bunch of B.S. ) but was because unlike you I don't make several unsubstantiated claims ( only to later back up SOME of them from Wikipidia of all places) especially when making questionable claims. So the references were really for your benefit and also a force of habit of mine of actually trying to refrain pulling stuff from out of my ass ( a force of habit of yours, it seems). And by the way there's absolutely no mention at all of the term Conduction anywhere whatsoever in that Wikipidia page you provided. So I'm still waiting for your proof of the link between Conduction heating as you clam and MASER heating ( so rush along back to Wikipidia or google if you must). And dielectric heating IS an Industrial process (preheating plastics, thermosetting Jells and drying lumber to name a few), as I have already provided the reference of. Maybe you should try actually reading before running your mouth. It's also nice to notice that you focused on the reference to Dielectric heating alone, out of all the other points I brought up in my argument ( your inexplicable confusion between MASERS and LASERS, the insuffecient energy carrried by MASER large photon wavelengths to penetrate metal and concrete, the yet to be substantiated claim of Conduction heating in Water as a primary means of heating, the lack of a clear path for the 'coherent', 'focused' MASER beam in the movie to the water, and oh yeah, my favourite, the claim or offer to provide mathematical calculations to back up you points; but seeing as you can't even come up with references to back up your claim, I hardly see that happening), all of which you conveniently sidestepped so you could gloat over your one "Wikipidia" victory, I guess dielectrics was all you had. Yeah, as you so aptly put it "fuck me running" is dead right, as in keep running all the way to the hills; or at least as far as you think you can get away from all the series of unsubstantiated claims you made in this discussion. YOu really need to run. And as for me getting hurt.....stop, please, you're scaring me.... REALLY.....I mean I'm here shaking in my little space boots because Adambalm is going to bowl me over with the "force of brilliance of his intellectual arguments". Man, I'm really really reheaaally scared........petrified silly!
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It'd suck if people blamed the FF concept itself (the way Ebert seems to in his review) instead of bad film-making for the poor quality of this film.
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Jul 08, 2005 4:19:07 PM CDT
"I'm rooting for adambalm, because I think Kai is a stupid n
by kai_mah'gra
.........WOW.... and this coming from someone calling themself "FluffyUnbound".......tragic!
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.......and so the "great intellectual mind" finally reduced to childish homophobic name-calling..............Is there ever a clearer sign of someone having reached the end of their cerebral capacity?....... Oh well, seeing as I have great difficulty stooping so low to such gutteral levels and reducing myself to name-calling, I guess I have to say, it was fun......
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Jul 08, 2005 4:27:55 PM CDT
My name has a long and storied history. Your name is just...gay
by fluffyunbound
But what should I expect from someone who has so clearly been owned by Adambalm? Brighten my existence and explain your name to me. What exactly IS a Kai_Mah'gra anyway? Sounds like some tea drink that Gwyneth Paltrow would live on for a month.
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...except that, personal tastes being as subjective as they are, it really is impossible for one to know for sure whether a film is bad or not if one doesn't bother to see it. There's simply no arguing that point. One person's favorite film might be another's fetid piece of worm-ridden, diseased, shit. Can you really put absolute trust in Rotten Tomatoes - the Family Feud top 100 of movie criticism? A review like Ebert's can tell you (and in a very measured, informed way) what HE didn't like about the film, and you may decide based on his opinion that it isn't the sort of film you would enjoy. But his experience of the movie isn't yours any more than reading the Cliff's Notes on a Shakespeare play is the equivalent of actually reading it yourself or (better yet) seeing it performed. And before you say "well, it's close enough for me," consider that Ebert might be suffering from the opposite syndrome of a Harry. While the latter had too much fanboy baggage to appreciate the film for what it was, the former clearly had not enough affection for the characters to appreciate the movie for what it was trying to be (and he pretty much admits that in his review). Would you rather have soemone else tell you that sex isn't all it's cracked up to be or try it for yourself? It's an extreme comparison, but a valid one. There are folks who genuinely don't enjoy sex. If I took their word for it as a young virgin, I never would have done it. Instead, I've had bad sex and good sex and sex that I completely forgot about until someone reminded me of it later. But I can honestly say I never had sex I regretted. As a movie lover I feel pretty much the same way. I may say I want my two hours back after a movie, but what fun would that be? If not for the Nothing But Troubles and U-Turns of the world, what would my friends and I hold our noses while discussing from the film world? I'm not saying FF is a good movie. I haven't seen it yet so I don't know that. Until I've seen it and run it through my very subjective brain pan, I can't possibly know if it's good, bad or somewhere in between on my personal quality scale. Neither can any one of you who hasn't seen it. So if you don't want to see it because you don't think it will be any good, that's fine. But don't talk about it as if you have conclusive evidence that it's bad (because you don't) and don't accuse people who still intend to see it after bearing witness to the same anecdotal evidence that you have of feeding some soulless corporate franchise-raping machine because, frankly, until you've seen the film and know what you're talking about, you sound pretty foolish. That's all I'm saying.
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Jul 08, 2005 4:38:18 PM CDT
"Brighten my existence and explain your name to me. ......"
by kai_mah'gra
And I would do this becaaaaase......it would benefit me how, again? I don't even give a crap what you think of my name means or how it sounds, despite the fact that you seem to be the self-proclaimed resident expert on Gay-names and Gwyneth Paltrow's beverages. Your name has a "long and storied history" ( and of course I wouldn't presume to claim that a name with "Fluffy" and "bound" in it is anything resembling gay. No, you would be the expert to know that, wouldn't you?), and my name has a "long and storied history" as well. And as little motivation as I have to explain that history to you, I could similarly give as much of a crap as to what the "storied" History of yours of anyone else's name on a freaking Talkback means. But go ahead and wallow in your new-found moment of euphoria at my Gay sounding name, if you must. If I can give you even that, then at least it's good to know you got some benefit beyond the intellectual value of anything that was being discussed, at all.
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I've been a Fantastic Four fan all my life and I still liked the movie.Could it have been better?Of course.Most any movie could have been better.I just thought it was an enjoyable way to spend an hour and a half.I thought the actors did a fine job.I still think Alba was miscast,but I don't think she was bad in the role.I hope this does well enough to warrant a sequel because with a better script,a better director,and a longer production schedule we could get the FF movie we really want.
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Jul 08, 2005 5:03:04 PM CDT
Whew, and I thought the political talkbacks were heated.
by cod profundity
And yes, that pun is the cleverest thing I can add to this discussion.
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Jul 08, 2005 5:05:45 PM CDT
Childe, I agree with that post except for one MAJOR point...
by cod profundity
...U Turn was a great film.
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Okay, here's what I'm gonna do. Since AICN has no 'quote' feature, I'm gonna preface everything I'm quoting of Kai's with 'YOU SAID' so you can tell them apart. There's alot of quotes here because I'm going point by point. K? Here goes. YOU SAID: "It's also nice to notice that you focused on the reference to Dielectric heating alone, out of all the other points I brought up in my argument" See, I didn't get dielectric heating from wikipedia, I got it years ago from my section on electromagnetism, and in the little 'science in real life' section it had how a microwave works. This isn't some obscure term. This is the fundamental principle by which microwaves impart thermal energy to matter. You're not getting around this. You don't know how a microwave oven works, do you? You had never heard the word before and you thought it was some obscure industrial process. My first suspicion was when you threw around terms like 'molecular vibratory energy!', a Stan Lee pseudoscience phrase if I ever heard one. You'll never see that language in the journals. But then again, you've never read one. It all looks like greek to you doesn't it, what with all those strange numbers and symbols, and weird formulas.
YOU SAID: "( your inexplicable confusion between MASERS and LASERS,)"
Okay, be my guest and go ask someone else in the field. They'll tell you LASER is a catch all in the field often used to describe the device which produces coherent electromagnetic photons. MASER is a more specific term, relating to only LASERs which operate in the microwave band. In fact you'll find textbooks in university bookshops on lasers which include sections on masers, as well as xasers, gamma ray lasers, all of could be classified as lasers because they all focus photons, the quanta of the electromagnetic field, into a coherent state. Although when the others are mentioned, often it's used to differentiate lasers which only operate in the visible light spectrum. I didn't feel the need to split hairs.
YOU SAID: "the insuffecient energy carrried by MASER large photon wavelengths to penetrate metal and concrete,"
But I answered this. My exact quote is 'but theoretically it could heat it through the sewer pipes, plumbing, etc as long as all the water was continuous and wasn't blocked off by dams or walls.' But 'penetrate metal'....the fuck? Please tell me you're joking. Metal is an even better conductor than water, with a specific heat capacity of 300 for copper, which is often used in plumbing. That's over 10 times the heating conduction of water. Damn, you just can't climb out of this one.
Of course you wouldn't know anything about that would you. Damn, this is just a bad day for you, huh?
"the yet to be substantiated claim of Conduction heating in Water as a primary means of heating, the lack of a clear path for the 'coherent', 'focused' MASER beam in the movie to the water, and oh yeah, my favourite, the claim or offer to provide mathematical calculations to back up you points;"
Not to back up my points. I never defended that this would be enough to vaporize an entire city's water supply. I specifically said it probably wasn't I said that twice now. I thought it would be fun to try and see what would be enough however. I still think that would be fun, maybe I'll try and look up the values later. What I took issue with was your inability to understand that this is a MICROWAVE BEAM, when YOU SAID it would "penetrate as far as it did and to vaporize as much water as it did in the Islet first and then presumably next in the city, and with that kind of range, is oddly, selective enough to somehow avoid every single human being....apparently [they] are unfamiliar with the concept of leaving a pizza pop in a microwave oven too long."
Only you're unfamiliar with the scientific laws governing that, as you've shown. And you're still trying to worm your way out of it. You can't respond to it because you fucked up. You didn't know how a microwave worked. You still don't know.
YOU SAID "but seeing as you can't even come up with references to back up your claim,"
I still can't believe you don't know this. Because the dielectric effect is so efficient at boiling water (Why I keep telling you, as in my first post, that it would only boil and vaporize the water and not do much to anyone on the surface, as you claim.) that it's used as a standard when cooking food to know how much water loss you'll have when cooking something. This is called the dielectic constants. Google the UK Microwave association site if you want to, I think you'll find what you need.
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Wow! There are people responding to this talkback now who have actually gone out and SEEN THE MOVIE!! And lo and behold, some of them are writing to say they liked it. The negativity on this talkback wouldn't be so funny if the people doing the bitching had actually SEEN THE MOVIE! But, no matter- some people's minds are made up and reviews already written in their heads before they step foot in the theater, so it doesn't matter if they see it or not. But, as I said before, if your mind is not made up yet, go see the FF and give it a fair chance.
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Egos and tempers have blown to Brobdinagian proportions -- now over such things as userIDs! "Long and storied" histories of userIDs? Give me a fucking break. I'm DennisMM because my name is Dennis and my last names begin with M and M. All the rest, including my original Talkback ID of JonnyQuick *and* the contributing writers' use of silly nicknames, is just fanboy foolishness. I say this as a 35-year comics reader, 38-year "Star Trek" fan, and most importantly a diagnosed manic-depressive (bipolar disorder). If I can keep my temper and ego in order, surely all of you need not puff up your chests and scream at one another. Thus endeth the lesson.
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came fully formed from Harry's head in a split instance. I'm kinda like Haley Joel Breathmint in A.I., where I sit around Harry's bedside and brush his hair out. BTW, Dennis is a ridiculous name. You'd be much cooler if you had an apostrophe in it. I keeed. I keeed. Dino a rules.
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I spent too many years (13-25, including time off college) living in eastern New Mexico, having to suck up the shit kicker culture. Apostrophes are popular. My sister-in-law is named D'Lynn. I went to high school with a girl named D'Aun and one named, horribly, K'Dawn (pronounced, not Keh-DAWN, but KAY-Dawn). Lortamercy, as Clarice Starling said.
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Jul 08, 2005 5:28:23 PM CDT
K'Dawn??? Fuck me that's awful, and I know someone calle
by cod profundity
that really isn't intended to offend you Dennis, sorry if it did.
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Hey, is there any chance of one day having the 'quote' feature or at least paragraph breaks in the future? It's giving me a headache reading over Kai's (and in response, sadly mine too) overly long posts without a single paragraph break.
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This is a late post on your 'Get a room' statement. But in effect, you're absolutely right. This argument is macho, petty, childish, and idiotic...but it's also so easy, and so much fun. I apologize if this is threadjacking the talkback. But I'm not the one who brought this up. See, Kai is like all snobs I've seen in fandom. They mope around, looking down their acerbic and bitter noses at everyone else, about how stupid movies are and how brainless everyone is. I've been guilty of a little of that myself in my darker moments (hell, I did it once in this talkback when I was in a bad moon), but I always feel bad about it afterwards. It's hard not to do that when most of geekdom is a little bit elitist like that. But often these people are self-loathing, as you can see Kai is. He throws around the word 'scientific!' in every other sentence and uses really real swinging sixties comic book phrases like 'molecular vibratory energy!' which you'd never hear any serious person in the field use. But it's all to cover up the fact that Kai doesn't understand the most basic principle of what he's criticising. He doesn't know how a microwave oven even works, as is now evident by him not even knowing the basic terminology. But he'll be happy to rip into everyone else for not knowing something, in fact he will go out of his way to seek out such opportunities. I don't think I'm better than everyone else. (I'm just better than him.)
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It's a great tradition among fans. I can understand the fun that can come with it. Hell, I once wrote a series of columns titled, "Snob Man vs. the Comics Ghetto," one installment of which was "Why I Hate Alex Raymond." That got some tempers running hot. The thing is, I wasn't medicated back then, and a bipolar mind is a precarious one. I could tip over the edge into high dudgeon or vast depression without much stimulus. These days I only want to argue over important things, like my comics shop owner ripping me off for my 12" Lone Wolf and Cub deluxe figures. (heh!) Seriously, it's just too tiring. Maybe youth is at least part of what it's cracked up to be -- it lends stamina to our uppitiness.
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It's late, I have had an awful fucking day in London, I've come on here and seen fucking zealots and idiots praising the attacks or calling for all muslims to be shot. I'm drinking to forget today and some of the things I've seen. So whoever came up with that term and then whoever called it pseudo stan lee (adambalm i think) I've got to say thanks for making me really chuckle. I shared a house with a physicist for a few years and he just loved to pick apart any stuff in films that was illogical bollocks, at first I hated him for it, but damn if it wasn't hilarious when I watched Supernova with him. Goodnight people.****p.s Adambalm, thanks for posting that quote for vikingkitty yesterday, it really shut him the fuck up. Peace.
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I forgot to mention that D'Aun wasn't pronounced "Dawn," but rather, "Dee-AWN." Man, west Texas - eastern New Mexico is a shithole. On the upside, I did live in the town where Norman Petty recorded (and ripped off)Buddy Holly and Roy Orbison, and got to tour the remains of Nor-Va-Jack studios when I was working for the Clovis newspaper in '85 -- and watch Vi Petty recreate her celesta part from Buddy's "Everyday."
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....check out "the Specials"!!!
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You hang in there, dude. London'll survive, and you will too man.
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Thought it was pretty good. Better that Spiderman 1 and the first Xmen.
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Hey Adambalm. I hear you. If I get some time next week I'll add the ability to post with paragraph tags and probably links (so this page doesn't get blown out whenever someone wants to link to their Jessica Biel fan page on Geocities). Hopefully you won't need to be able to post scientific notation because I won't be able to turn that on very quickly. But my caveat is that next week is going to be a busy week for this site. The crew is heading to San Diego for ComicCon and we hope to get some really great daily posts and interviews. I also feel that Harry will have some surprises of his own, but I don't know for sure. We are also going to extend the ol' email-in-your-photo thing (like we did for the Zombie and Star Wars stuff), so that we can get more contributors to show us what goes on at ComicCon. I'll be happy sitting here in 100 degree heat and living vicariously through the lucky bastards that are there.
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.... I really think you're on to someting with this YOU SAID quote system, so to wit: YOU SAID: "My first suspicion was when you threw around terms like 'molecular vibratory energy!', a Stan Lee pseudoscience phrase if I ever heard one.":: Are you trying to imply that molecules in solids don't vibrate in nature with energy that's directly related to their temperature, or are you just trying to find a way of saying you have never quite seen it phrased like that and as such, it must be wrong ( seeing as you are the expert on all scientific terms used in Journals everywhere and the resident authority on "pseudoscience phrases", that is)? because either way, all you have to do is ask. Of course the former question, would be unforgiveable for such an authority on terms scientific, but understandable nonetheless, seeing as it's you. YOU SAID: "MASER is a more specific term, relating to only LASERs which operate in the microwave band.":: Wrong again!!! MASERS predate LASERS by about 6 years ( MASERS invented in '54 and LASERS in 1960) and are the forerunners to Laser technology. Ref:: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/
Maser.html
In actual fact LASERS are actually considered to be a subset of MASERS . Ref:: http://einstein.stanford.edu/content/faqs/
maser.html
..... .especially when you consider the fact that MASERS ( unlike LASERS ) are also naturally occurrring phenomena, thousands of which have been detected in Space ( also referenced in the first link above). That people refer to MASERS as LASERS or use the terms intechangeably has less to do with the fact that it may be true than it has to do with poor language usage among the lay non-scientific community. I bet you wouldn't find the 2 terms being casually used interchangeably or MASERS referred to as a type of LASER, as you did,in any of your precious "Journals".Nice try though. So much for being the MASER expert. What now beyotch? Also in you rather pathetic attempt at backing out of your claim to provide a mathematical treatment YOU SAID::"I thought it would be fun to try and see what would be enough however. I still think that would be fun, maybe I'll try and look up the values later." :: Yeah......... later, that's er.....that's it.....er.....that's the ticket!! Yeah, "later"!!! In response to this I will merely point you to your prior comments when YOU SAID:: "Anyway, without doing the math (IF YOU REALLY WANT ME TO, I WILL)" :: translation - offer to do the math. And I think in response I SAID :: "....and by the way I would really like to see your calculations since you keep offering to do them.....". As it turns out I'm still waiting to see those same calculations while you try to back ou...I mean, look up th values "laaaaater".....yeah....that's the ticket....'laaater'. Just goes to show what happens when your mouth buys you ass ( or in this case your brain) something it can't handle. Sure thing buddy. Later. What else beeeyotch?
YOU SAID:: "Because the dielectric effect is so efficient at boiling water (Why I keep telling you, as in my first post, that it would only boil and vaporize the water and not do much to anyone on the surface, as you claim.)":: Excuse me for asking this again, but what exactly constitutes 70-75% of the human body? Because I was under the distinct impression that it was, oh, I don't know.... WATER? You know, pretty much the same as the type that you claim is being vapourized in your quote above. My question to you was always, how come that water in the human body isn't affected by the beam yet water inside metallic and concrete pipes gets instantly vaporized? And thanks for providing the specific heat capacity of copper, because I presume the reason you did so was to prove your point that human flesh has a higher specific heat capacity than copper hence the reason the water in human body remains unaffected. er...yeah...Rrrrrright!!! That makes sense, right, Mr. Scientific Journals? What now beeeyotch???? Oh man, you were right, this has been FUN. I can't remember the last time I owned someone like this in a debate. Oh, and just when you thought you might have gotten away with it, allow me to draw your attention back to the ludicrously pleasant fact, that there was no mention, read: ZERO, mention in your most recent post attempting to relate CONDUCTION to dielectric heating ( I suspect that it might have something to do with the fact that your beloved Wikipidia were similarly reluctant to link the two together). In fact the only time you mentioned conductivity in your post was when you referred to "the heating conduction" of water, (which I can only imagine from context was meant to be (specific) "heating CAPACITY" of water) and when you quoted me - and then (surprise surprise!!) once again conveniently entirely sidestepped addressing that quote. Allow me to be the first to congragulate you for completely backing off of a position you once so dearly held. John Kerry must be be so proud of you. But I seee you're keeping up with the dielectrc rhetoric and throwing out more dielectric phrases. It's ok I understand. Seeing as it's all you have left now. Have I already mentioned how much FUN this has been; because if not I must say this has really really been FUN. Are we running for th hills yet? -
adambalm and kai swallowed any insight I might have garnered from people who actually saw the movie as I waded through the endless physics masturbation.
As someone else here has already said, get a handful of condoms and a room and join the Ass Circus. Clowns. -
.....yeah, just keep repeating that to yourself over and over again, and I'm sure eventually even you'll believe it. Could you possibly any lamer? taking shots at me in the third person. But it's fine, clearly you need all the third-party support ( and self-delusions of greatness)you can get seeing as the arguing thing (or the thinking thing for that matter) isn't working out so great for you.
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Jul 08, 2005 6:49:24 PM CDT
Um, Kai, I know fuck all about physics, but I used to think I k
by cod profundity
Isn't talking about yourself in the third person using your own name? Like, you saying "Kai_Mah'gra is a big twat". Or me saying "Cod Profundity will look like a twat if he gets this wrong"
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Jul 08, 2005 6:50:09 PM CDT
Hey, if you don't want to explain your name, that's OK.
by fluffyunbound
Now I'm wondering if it's either 1) something out of Frank Herbert or 2) something a Japanese TV announcer would say while narrating a special about the '69 Mets. I hadn't considered the possibility that it was based on your actual name - I forget sometimes that some Generation D folks are saddled with fucking abortions of names containing apostrophes. If it is in fact based on your own name, then I can see how you would be sensitive, given the horrible undying shame and all.
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keep on reaching..........at the very least its more exercise than your mind is used to....
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One of the cardinal rules to avoiding bad films (others including never seeing a film involving the phrase "Sisterhood" or "Starring Martin Lawrence") is never ever, for the love of almighty Jebus even with a gun to your head, see a film with Jessica Alba in it. I'll never forget her trying to act or even emote having a pulse in the awful commercials for that ridiculous "Dark Angel" stillbirth foisted on us by James Cameron. Pretty face, zero talent. In fact, I'd go so far as to say her talent, or lack thereof, is like a vast gravitational vortex dragging down the quality of all acting in its vicinity. The implosion of this film is all the proof you'll ever need.
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Jul 08, 2005 6:56:12 PM CDT
Yerh, I thought I was right. When did adambalm refer to himself
by cod profundity
Here's a good example. http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=13386
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Psssssttttt! Look back at the talkback above and read your own posts. Then think the words, "Maybe they're not laughing WITH Kai Mah'gra. Maybe they're laughing AT Kai Mah'gra. And Kai Mah'gra doesn't like that! But you won't hear Kai Mah'gra say that."
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.......what's the matter Fluffy, you need some attention? Mommy forgot to change your diapers? Baby want a bottle?
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Jul 08, 2005 7:05:24 PM CDT
Oh man. I wasn't going to come down on either Kai's or A
by cod profundity
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YOU SAID: 'MASERS predate LASERS by about 6 years ( MASERS invented in '54 and LASERS in 1960)'!!!!!!!
Yes it was. If that's supposed to be news, or relevant I fear I'm missing your point. I didn't make up the usage, I'm just telling you what I've observed, and what's standard practice now, hence why I use them interchangably.
"Yeah......... later, that's er.....that's it.....er.....that's the ticket!" It's strange, I never said it would prove my point. I still
don't think it would be enough to vaporize a city's water supply. The difference is, I don't care. If you can provide the two values
one needs, you can do it yourself. I told you how. I'll tell you in more detail. We want to see how reasonable it would be to
say that a microwave laser could vaporize the water supply of a city. Now, these are completely arbitrary variables. I'm calling
the power output of maser PW, but you could just as easily call it AB, or CD. We want to find are ΔE: The required energy needed to vaporize
the water supply and T: The time that would take to do so. This wouldn't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt, nor are we trying to. This
is just a bit of fun, just as my little Superman exercise didn't prove that Superman could fly.
Basically, all you need to know beforehand is:
PW, the power output of the maser in watts (Joules per second, because we want to know how long this will take as well.)
M(w): The mass of the water of the city's water supply in kilograms.
ΔE: The energy required to bring the water to vaporization. To get this we need the value for M(w), the mass of the water
in kilograms times the latent heat of water. Basically, there is no temperature change at the boiling point, the energy supplied
at that point goes in to breaking the bonds, latent heat kind of measures how strong these bonds are, because that's how much
energy you have to supply to break them.
Other factors could factor in in the end, but this is physics, not engineering.
If you want to, you can do it yourself. As I said in the beginning, the only unknowns are 1) The standard power output of a microwave laser, and 2) the mass of a city's water supply. If you can find those, you can go ahead and solve it, and by the hero of the day Anakin. Also, anybody is welcome to add to, or correct any of the preceeding. I know there have to be some folks who read AICN who know this stuff too. If not, I'll do make any corrections I might be making in my tired haze and solve it tomorrow. It's about that time in my neck of the woods. I'm going to hit the sack. -
I just thought. Andy Serkis would be fucking class for the Joker.
Boy am I going to get flamed for that. Flame on fanboys, flame on. Hahaha. I knew i could link it to this talkback. I am a Supersegway genius that Eddie Temple Morris and Zane Lowe would be pround of. -
By the way, that was the greek symbol for delta, followed by the letter 'E' which is the common notation for a change in energy. Guess Doc Falken was right.
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...I would simply write a really long post about technical concepts I only marginally understand, punctuating it with expressions like "Beyotch" and "Fluffy don't play that third person shite".
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So we've gone from "(IF YOU REALLY WANT ME TO, I WILL)" re: the math - (and to which I responded in the affirmative)- to ".....you can do it yourself". I think that succintly and essentially summarizes the entire rhythm and tone that this argument has assumed so far. You proffer a piece of information, claim or in this case to show the how the math involved works; I challenge your claims, information or in this case I take you up on your offer to do the math; You back off from the claims, entirely sidestep them, forget you actually made them or in this case, tell me to do the math myself ( despite the fact that you were the one that originally brought up the whole issue). Yep, pretty much covers it. It was fun...... we should do this again sometime.
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Jul 08, 2005 7:41:28 PM CDT
Fluffy, does your name pertain to The Far Side comic strip?
by cod profundity
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Jul 08, 2005 7:43:18 PM CDT
So, Kai you fucked up big time with that third person shit. You
by cod profundity
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......I understand that that nappy rash can be a bitch. Hang in there tiger, Mommy will be along shortly and we'll have you all changed and clean up pretty soon. We'll also try and see if we can find your favourite pacifier and mr. teddy and get you all tucked in pretty soon. M'kay sport?
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So it's really a case of the pot calling the kettle black, but Kai is such a horse's ass that I really don't care. My [also quite lame] reference to its "storied history" was a poorly executed attempt at self-deprecating humor, referring to the numerous times a "Fluffy" related name has been banned from this site. It was a silly joke since I think it's been over two years since the last time I was banned. I was on a Fett like streak for a while there, though. The name isn't based on The Far Side - the original name was Fluffygreycat, for the very prosaic reason that my wife's cat was sitting on my desk the first time I signed up. I doubt I could reconstruct all the Fluffy names that got scorched for abuse, trolling, offensive statements, and "generally being an asshole" since that time. I actually think your name is quite clever, in a Mark Kurlansky kind of way. Almost as clever as "Grando Calrissian", which is I think the best name ever used at this site.
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Jul 08, 2005 7:49:21 PM CDT
Kai, you're making my molecules vibrate with the energy of s
by fluffyunbound
Please stop hurting my feelings.
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Jul 08, 2005 8:01:39 PM CDT
Whoa!!!! Comeback of the year there Fluffy.......bar none!!
by kai_mah'gra
....I'm like, totally floored.........did you learn that one at the nursery too or at the sandbox......because this horse's ass is just reeling right now.
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Maybe you could send me a maser as a prize. Shouldn't you be on your way to see Fantastic Four at this point? You could go, take notes, and then come back and talk to us about the "Shiny Plasmonic Energy" the Human Torch uses, or the "Spooky Harmonic Flux Resonance" of the Invisible Girl's powers, or any number of other terms you come up with on the spot.
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I don't know what everyone is whining about. This movie is fun. I have been reading comics for 30 years and I considered this movie to be fun adaptation. I will admit I would have done some things differently (especially Doom) but I can say the same thing about many comics I have read. I was pleasantly surprised that the Thing actually worked for me on screen (the trailers were kind of iffy). I thought the characters were portrayed very similar to the comic books (except for Sue being a Genetecist, it was introduced and pretty much dropped). I can understand why kids are enjoying it, it really is a comic book on the big screen. Stop overthinking it and just enjoy it.
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It had some groan inducing moments but overall I really liked it. At least this had some actual Dialogue compared to X-men and at least i actually liked the actors including the guy from nip tuck. Lots of kids eating this flick up especially the Rockman and fireguy stuff. That's what the kids behind me kept saying. I go tomorrow to see it again in a better theater with better seats and sound.
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Jul 08, 2005 8:49:15 PM CDT
Why does everyone seem to think paid movie critics don't hav
by sleeping_angel
After all, they're human beings, if someone looked me in the eye and said they never had any kind of bias about anything at all, I'd laugh quite a bit then call them a plonker or some such thing. I still say Fantastic Four is a good movie. Maybe it's just me, but I like watching movies, not comparing them to the things they're based on, even though I can't help it sometimes. But this Fantastic Four is actually entertaining, and funny as all get out. I defy anyone not to laugh at the feather duster scene. I suppose in a way, the movie is fulfilling the function of all movies, in that it's making people not think about their everyday lives, even if in this respect, it's making people sit around and complain about how it isn't any good before they even see it. abd there's no such thing as a universally bad film (except gigli) since someone somewhere will always find something they like in any movie (except gigli).
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Good God, Fluffy, I think I just peed a little. That is some funny shit. But let's not forget the "epidermetallic mutation" that Doom undergoes, or the "complete organelastic properties" of one Reed Richards. Man, pseudo-scientific terminology is fun! Let's do the X-men next.
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True, there are people who will enjoy the film exactly as it is. And I do admit I get carried away. But it is born out of a bewildered feeling of helplessness and stunned disbelief. How can they keep getting it so wrong, so often, and not see their own mistakes?
I hope I did not accidentally insult any one who does like this movie. That was not my goal. I just know it could be so much better and the only power we have is ticket buying. But as long as they realize what the got wrong and attempt to do better. I.E. Batman Forever erased by Batman Begins. Let them make a profit and everyone who can enjoy it do so. If the reviews pouring in are any indication, then the message has been sent loud and clear.
However, I do humbly submit that you CAN tell if a movie will appeal to you with out seeing it. The director -
Jul 08, 2005 9:11:09 PM CDT
Harry and all Critics are WRONG - - This is Marvel films finest
by venomfangx
I just saw this bitch at the theater, and I had no reason to believe that this would be the best Marvel film yet. It is. Those who hate on it are jealous that they couldn't make a better movie. Simple as that. I'm not even a fan of the fantastic four, but there isn't a single mistep in this film, every character shines and is used to their own unique effectiveness, and the special effects never dominate the story or characters. Front and foremost this is a movie about its characters, and though it has moments of spectacle, it never takes attention away or spends too much time dwelling in useless battles or adventuring pointlessly in pretty scenery. This is a real movie, about real characters and events that change them. If that isn't what movie making is all about, then fuck. fuck. Go see this movie, you won't be dissapointed. I bet Harry liked this movie, I bet everyone did, it's just hip to say the latest of the great marvel films 'sucks.' You trolls are useless, go enjoy movies for what they are, depictions of fictional characters being brought authentically to life. Assholes. I'm out. Fantastic Four FUCKING OWNS
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Jul 08, 2005 9:30:05 PM CDT
Just saw it. Weak dialog, bland acting, substandard effects. N
by frankdrebin
How does Sue turning invisible on the bridge help her, Reed & Johnny get past the police line? When all the public saw was Ben catching the firetruck, why do they tell the reporters about the Fantastic 'Four'? Why would the crowd cheer them, when Ben pretty much CAUSED all the destruction on the bridge? When Ben smashes the truck cab, how come the driver is completely unharmed? How does Johnny hugging the kid protect him from the explosion ... and the shock wave ... and the shrapnel? After the Board Of Directors fires Doom, how come he still has access to all of the company's facilities? When Reed uses himself as a test subject and liquifies, how does he get better? Why is Alicia so hot for Ben? Does Doom absorb electricity or produce it? Why would the people of Latveria give Doom a sinister-looking faceplate as an award? Why does Reed have a dangerous lab in the middle of New York ... on top of a skyscraper (sure it's true to the comic, but it still needs explaining)? When Reed finds out that the cosmic storm is about to hit the space station, why doesn't he just punch the intercom button and warn everybody instead of wandering around looking for Doom? How come it took Doom 30 seconds to open the cosmic ray shields, but he couldn't close them in 6 minutes? Why did Doom have a space station anyway? And wouldn't it at least have a few other crew members on board? If Reed wants to help people, why is he experimenting on plants? When Johnny gives the nurse a thermometer heated to 200 degrees, why doesn't she say "Ouch"? Since Ben WANTS Reed and Sue to get together, why is he pissed when he finds out they took a walk together? Why would Doom fire a heat-seeking missle at Johnny when Johnny wasn't in torch mode? Why wouldn't Doom use the hyper-coolant on Johnny and fire the missle at Reed? I could go on and on, but I'll ask just one more: why does heating, then cooling Doom's metal body incapacitate him?
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...none of them make a lick of sense.
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Jul 08, 2005 9:43:04 PM CDT
forget FF. you guys should be begging for cameron to do THE AUTH
by cloudrider`
forget the matrix/madmax crossbreed called alita, if there’s one project big and cool enough to suit him, it’s the authority. for all of you nimrods who says “what the hell...???”, trust me when i say this... pick up this series(forget the first 12 issues, and jump straight to issue 13 and up; that’s where it gets so much cooler) and your life wont be the same since. this is the watchmen/citizen kane/titanic of superheroes action. superhero action simply do not get any bigger than this. forget raimi’s spidey(1st one sucks, 2nd cool), singer’s x-men(1st one sucks, 2nd much better), and nolan’s batman(1st hour orgasmic, 2nd hour pathetic) – cameron’s authority will be the end all and be all of superhero movie. there’s no need to ever make another superhero film after that. ever. trust me. of all the things i’ve said in my entire life, in this site and out, truer words have never been spoken or heard.
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they are 6 members of an elite team who take it upon themselves to babysit the world. and these guys take no bullshit and spare nothing to keep the peace. any supervillains crazy enough to want to conquer the world, these guys dont throw them in prison(pussies), or some asylum(PUSSY!!!!!!) so they can escape and start some shit again; these guys will torture said assholes and THEN kill them in the most grand fashion imaginable(make up your own topten list of how to best kill a supervillain, and you will still nowhere near as cool as how these guys done it!). and these guys are unbeatable. i dont care how strong a supervillain might seem, you might be the most powerful being in the universe, these 6 guys WILL still take you down. you can start worlwide invasion(and i mean WORLDWIDE, not just new jersey! and yes, that means boston is included as well.), and these 6 guys will each go to different countries and singlehandedly whup your asses and the other asses lining up behind you, before moving on to the next continent and whup some more asses. and when no supervillains have the balls enough to show up, in their spare time these guys actually bother to kill corrupt leaders and world tyrants of the world just to keep the world in harmony. yeah, that’s what they do to kill time until the next big supervillain shows up(unless of course, they got horny, in which case they usually held an orgy. yeah, you read that right. Wait, i havent mentioned that the two female members of the team are sluts, have i? Oh, and by the way, there’s a gay couple too in the team - coincidentally, they are the only two members who wear spandex.) they bow down to no presidents, and answer only to themselves. their headquarter is a spaceship 1/10th the size of the moon soaring above the cloud, watching over earth, and it’s just not for show - you wont believe how cool the ship is integrated into the actions. i mean, pick up the books, pretty please, and tell me if you have ever seen a more perfect pairing of project and director EVER?
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forget kong and jackson! forget spielberg and cruise! cameron and THIS – that’s the BIRTH OF NEW CINEMA, man! that’s ESB times 10, matrix times 100, jurassic park times 1000! the only reason cameron is considering doing alita and not authority, is because someone has gotten alita the comics into cameron’s path, but no one aroundhim has yet to show him the authority. i’ve seen alita the anime, and it’s nothing, NOTHING compared to the authority. this is huge. huge in scale, in actions, excitements, and IMHO, it’s the only comic book that’s big enough to warrant cameron’s attention. besides, i know he likes to make movies with titles that begin with ‘A’ or ‘T’, and he likes material that can project his ego and ambition. and after TITANIC, really, isn’t it fitting that the next film he does is titled AUTHORITY? i simply cant think of a bigger better movie title to announce “the king of the world”’s return than that. can you? the fact that authority begins with ‘A’ also only makes it providence. so... spread the words, baby... spread the words.
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aside from her and the fact that the movie was pretty weak on plot, it was OK.
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I knew Thing would be the great one..since that is the case..ok time for a "Marvel two in one"
With Ben and whom??? after a good fight on yancy street...
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I thought it was excellent. I've read Marvel comics for over 20 years but I don't go in to these things expecting a perfect reproduction of stories that were written long before I was born. They're constantly rewriting origins and alternate universe stories anyway. Maybe I'm just used to the idea that things could have happened differently than originally portrayed. The nit-picky things just slid right by me when I was watching and I didn't try to fit the movie into any perfect FF superhero mold.
I've liked most of the comic based movies I've seen and the only one's I skipped were Elektra and Catwoman. Without ranking them all, FF did as much for me as Batman Begins (which I thought was great as well) and I'll leave the comparison there.
The theater was packed and at the end I couldn't believe the applause. Where I live you never hear applause after a movie.
Never posted before but I just had to speak up for The FF. I don't think I've read a "review" on it yet that I agree with but it seems like most on this forum that have actually seen the movie enjoyed it.
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No actual human could write, "Those who hate on it are jealous that they couldn't make a better movie. Simple as that." It must be a last-ditch effort to turn the tide of word of mouth, so at least some people will see it on Saturday. And would someone tell me what the big deal is about critics being biased? Who ever said that they weren't? They're biased by education, experience watching films, reading, watching television, even reading comics. You read their reviews, try to figure out if they might be right, and then make your own decision. Is that so hard? I made up my own mind from the embarrassing trailers, and Harry and Quint's reviews only confirmed my expectations.
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While I haven't seen it yet, I can say this is the busiest weekend I have seen at the theatre in the last 20 weeks. Note to Hollywood no more remakes. Make movies that people want to see that are not re-hashes of other movies.
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There are a couple of groan inducing moments, but over the movie is solid and surprisingly funny. This is closer to Ghostbusters than Ghostbusters 2 was. And honestly, I thought Alba did a great job. So fuck all y'all.
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Jul 08, 2005 11:19:36 PM CDT
Even though I saw and liked the movie and had a few good laughs
by justice41
I was going to mention it especially when they got all the marketing points in. The feather duster stuff was funny as was the johnny hot tub scene. I really don't know what harry watched but someone musta slipped him a downer or something in his fifth helping from the buffett.
Harry's got me as frustrated as a skinhead at a Martin Luthor King Parade. Git er done
Can you believe my luck though. I'm down here in florida and we got a Himmacane coming in and while I was in the theater just before johnny does that bic lighter thing with his thumb the lights went out. Aftr waiting aout a half hour we left. We went to another theater and the lights had gone out there earlier in the day and the satelitte that feeds the movies was down so i had to waych this movie all over again in a hot muggy theater with no surround sound or any base and the movie was of such poor quality I complained and got tickets for another day, which is how I found out about the electrical failure. Got free tics at the other theater as well where I will be again to watch this from a proper theater wth proper sound and arena seats not those stupid ones were someone in front of you blocks some of your view. Man what a day. Rant over. This movie made me laugh and the torch and Ben ruled The other two were hit and miss but the fanboys in the theater all got giddy the first time Alba walked in in the tight outfit. -
If you think the plants have arrived here, then hop on over to plant city over at yahoo movies. They really need to train their interns to write better because the fake reviews are so easy to spot. You'll read stuff like "Forget Batman Begins, Fantastic Four is the real deal", "The movie event we've all been waiting for", "Solid acting, solid story, this one is a must see", "I plan to see it 3 more times at least!!!!", "Can only be called FANTASTIC!!!!", ect. ect. ect. Fox must have their interns pulling overtime churning out fake reviews.
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I got dragged to this crapfest. It was actually worse than I expected. With the exception of Chiklis and Chris Evens, the actors were awful, the effects were sub-made for TV Sci-Fi channel movie, and the story was terrible. Anyone who was entertained by this piece of garbage is probably mentally hadicapped. Even my friends who like almost anything hated it. It's just a bad film. On every level.
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Apparently anyone who disagrees with reviewers here are plants! I think you guys are getting a bit paranoid. As a 25 yo graphic designer very much NOT on the Fox/Marvel payroll...
This film was great. I think this is a fun film that just isn't meant for the average cynical, self-loathing genre fan.
"Oh, it's goint to make us look stupid" "Oh, but comics are serious!" "Oh but it should be more brooding like Batman Begins." Bah. I liked Batman Begins okay, but it was slow as molasses in places and downright (unintentionally) silly in others and far too pretensious by half. FF is fun. It captures the dialogue and the characters of the FF perfectly. I think the people who will enjoy this movie are the people who aren't obsessed with camera-angles and mise-en-scene and can't wait to get back to the net to show how much they think they know about movies. This is for those people who love to get swept away with likable characters in a fun situation. They like to see cool battle sequences, laugh, and root for some heroes. To be honest, I feel bad for the bitter fanboys who went into this movie ready to hate it, and could not let themselves be that child watching a comic book come alive. I'm not saying its everyone's cup of tea. Maybe there is something about the FF that seems out of place in this grim-n-gritty world where every hero has to have a dark side and reign in a savage killer instinct or be persecuted by those they are trying to protect. I like complex films. I enjoy seeing independent movies. But I'd cry the day I couldn't go see a fun summer blockbuster movie and enjoy it on its own terms.
BTW - The theater was packed at a 1:30 matinee showing with people of all shapes and sizes. I'm interested to see how FF does. I think it might just surprise people. I think the FF the movie is refreshing as a superhero movie in a similar way that the comic was such a revelation in the 60's. I think it shows that you can have your romance, you can have your sadness, but in the end - being a superhero can be pretty fun. The heroes can win in the end, get the girl, and go home to the cheers of millions. -
Jul 09, 2005 12:44:10 AM CDT
Saw it today, it wasn't a Spider-Man or a Batman Begins...bu
by cletus van damme
If it has an achilles heel at all, it's Alba in the role of Sue.
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Aside from Jessica Alba's "performance". Again, I've seen better actin' in tough-actin' Tinactin. And what the hell is going on in the above posts between Bill Nye & Carl Sagan? I thought we talked about movies around here. Go see Fantastic Four. Judge for yourself, then post.
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When you effusively back a movie like 'Fantastic Four,' use more than enough exclamation points for the rest of us, unironically toss around buzzwords like "heart" and "triumph" and own a user name that we've never seen before, we all already know that you're plants, which means that the practice is kind of useless. And Kai is Hawaiian for ocean, I think. Don't know if that has anything to do with Kai's name.
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Jul 09, 2005 12:50:40 AM CDT
Fuck Science. Sincerely, The State of Kansas Department of Educ
by heywood jablowme
Go see Fantastic Four. It's the goods.
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******Maybe you could send me a maser as a prize. Shouldn't you be on your way to see Fantastic Four at this point? You could go, take notes, and then come back and talk to us about the "Shiny Plasmonic Energy" the Human Torch uses, or the "Spooky Harmonic Flux Resonance" of the Invisible Girl's powers, or any number of other terms you come up with on the spot..*****
---Fluffy, you are a fucking comic genius. I have had to avoid this site like the plague to stop my eyes from bleeding every time I read some low double digit IQ twit with a (barely) high school understanding of world events and history make sweeping political statements as is so common here- but damn man, you actually make these talkbacks worth reading. And shit, no politics on this one how refreshing. ----Incidentally- I saw FF and it was a good fun popcorn flick -yes a bit light on good action as mentioned- but so was the (better) Batman Begins last time I checked. Anyone comparing FF to Catwoman is either a comic nerd on a level I will never understand or is just blind.
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Jul 09, 2005 1:02:25 AM CDT
Neither "conduction" nor "convection" are in the Bible, so it do
by heywood jablowme
Problem solved. I saw Fantastic Four and it was pretty darn good.
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I'm not a huge comic book fan but I do love movies...and films, too. My impression was that the film was poorly directed but, in the end, somewhat enjoyable. It could have been so much better but I thought the comedy played better than I expected. It's for this reason that it may do better box office than Batman Begins...if the little tykes have fun then it will do well. I like the tone of the film but I agree with the review that the pacing is off. The effects aren't as bad as everyone is stating. It's not groundbreaking but it also didn't pull me away from the story like I was expecting.
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I spoke too soon- that didn't last one post. Feeling IQ slipping from the talkback.. .noooooooo .... ...
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I was expecting FF to be horrible, but hoping it wasn't. Guess what? It wasn't. I was tired, I needed to pee, I was in a bad mood... and I still managed to have fun. Was it a good movie? No. Was it fun shlock? Absolutely. It was no worse than the 2nd half of Spiderman (which was incredibly boring... until the bridge scene at the end). It was no worse than the best parts of Daredevil (which had a certain energy and style). It was better than Corman's version. It was way better than season 1 of the '95 cartoon, but not as good as season 2. Got it?
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Jul 09, 2005 1:54:51 AM CDT
jeez, i don't know why all the nagative reviews. Saw it toda
by the founder
I was really expecting this film to suck balls so bad that even galactus would cry. i was surprised. it turned out to be an almost solid film, but it had some big problems. My biggest two are Doom and the thing andthat lil ole transformation device just hanging around so that when ben gets tired he can become human again. Other then that the film was sold enough, but there wasn't much imagination put forth, and a lot was copied from films that has worked in the past.
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So... all of youse yammering about CG vs. rubber (and that includes you Muren), here's the deal. Can you seriously imagine the Hulk done w/a rubber suit? Can you seriously imagine him running at full tilt throught the desert? Crumpling up tanks? Jumping miles through the air and letting go of his rage as the wind rushes past? No? You can't? You know why that is? Because you've just seen The Thing. That's what a rubber suit looks like. A guy that can barely move his arms. That walks like Rubber-Godzilla (or like Batman :) You see? Can you imagine rubber Thing running through the desert? He could barely run through the street. I love Chiklis, or Michael as I call him since I'm not on last name nickname basis with him, but stop telling me he was great. Vocally? Yes. Eyes, mouth, cheek. and lower-jaw acting? Yes. But body movement? Ferget it. Yes, he could move. He could walk. He could maybe even punch. But imagine him jumping around, running faster than a mother jogger and her baby stroller, or being flexible enough to wipe his own ass. You can't? Let me tell you why. Because Fox couldn't afford one of the only 2 companies able to do a convinving CG thing: ILM or Weta. But how can that be? I mean the movie cost over $100m! (Sure didn't look like it... it looked like Hellboy-level budget ~$60m) That's because they had to shoot it and get it done in half the time a movie like Spiderman takes to make. Half the time? Double the overtime. (yeah, the math is fuzzy, but you get my point) And overtime costs money. So, had they stretched out the schedule, yeah, it would've cost them more to keep the sets up, keep locations, etc., but they wouldn't be shelling out as much overtime to all the union jacks. They'd have 'em for more days, but it would still cost less. And then they'da had money for a CG thing. And then you'd actually see him do cool stuff, rather than see him after he did cool stuff. Why can't the Thing hold a firetruck over his head? Because he can't lift his arms that high, that's why. All the crap about rubber suit = more emotion, more humanity, better acting? BS. It was PURELY a cost-cutting measure. Keep Chiklis for his baby blues and his voice, but ditch the rubber and suit him up in CG. BTW, all a' youse clammoring for FF vs the Silver Surfer? Was it me, or did he show up there at the end? (before the hydrant stunt)
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I think like harry said that the sprit is there of what the f4 is, but the film itself had some problems. Reed fx was choppy and never as good as they should have been. The thing was a disappointment, but Chilkis made up for it by turning in a good performance. Evans was great as Torch. Ioan was fine as reed, but the man just didn't have much to work with. Alba as Sue was better then I expected, and not as bad as so many are making her out. The guy playing Doom, Mcmahon is his name was very limited and confined. i really believe this man could've made doom great if he had the right material and director. Story wasn't bad, but in, my opnion lacks the visual eye and imagination for this type of movie, but then again to me this was an exec driven film and they wanted a yes director who would have no say and power. I can see where the rushing really hurt this film. i think with more post production and reshoot time, this film could've been great.
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Jul 09, 2005 2:17:37 AM CDT
Calico Pete thanks for the info. i was wandering where in the he
by the founder
I just don't understand why FOX just doesn't take it's time and allow itself time to put these films out. Now it's going to be the same with x3.
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I'm a big Marvel fan but I just don't understand why they have to screw so many of their movies up! When they stick for the most part to original content they do well. Spiderman had only a few slight changes & look it did well. X-men kept things pretty true or didn't waste time putting together the origin for everyone. (Do we really need to know how Jean or Scott join the team?) Daredevil was pretty on as well. Hulk had a completely different problem. There was too much baggage attached to the project. The TV show (which I never liked, I'm probably in the minority there) had too strong of an impression on people's preceptions of the character. I thought the CGI idea was more true to the comic but regular moviegoers were too caught up on the Lou Farrigno visual. Plus Ang Lee's arthouse presentation was way too far from the mainstrean for viewers to stomach. By the time you add the father issues, the audience is gone. Not to mention Hulk's origin can't work in a post 60s environment. I also don't agree with Marvel's concept of multi-budget movies. Audiences are going to view a low budget Daredevil or Punisher to a big budget FF or Spiderman because they know that the movies come from the same house. It's the Disney sequel problem. You bring your brand down as a whole when you don't keep an even quality of product. I know most of the people involved here know that Punisher wasn't suppose to have the same box office totals as the Spidermans but the general public doesn't see it that way. I've yet to see the FF movie but from what I've seen & heard I've been fearful to see it. I read Avi Arad's article in Wired & if he's doing as much pimping of FF as he was that isn't good. I don't understand what Arad is doing lately as well. The man who had MJ call Peter "tiger" is letting little things slip like Thing making blonde jokes to a Johnny who clearly isn't blonde! I know that seems nitpicky but it's the little details that count & make a movie worth viewing over & over again. If you don't get the small things right, you'll definately get the big things wrong and it sounds like that's the case with the FF movie. I also don't understand why Marvel can't make a TV show right as well. Look at Teen Titans and Justice League! They created two great comic book cartoons that allow for unlimited appearances of the DC universe! (No Pun intended.) Marvel has yet to come out with a simple well created cartoon that they don't screw up the origins or recreate the characters to make them "hip or ultimate or whatever bullshit they want to call it". X-men Evolution was crap because they thought they had to rewrite the characters. Same with the lame Avengers cartoon! What's wrong with putting together an Avengers cartoon ala "Justice League". You can tell Avengers origin in three seconds! Put all the big hitters in for the first couple of seasons & then open it up! I'd love to see a regular cartoon with Iron Man, Cap, & Thor not to mention the lesser known characters like Stingray!! I want to see an Avengers cartoon with Stingray, damnit! I just don't understand how this is so hard for Marvel. They have a killer pre-school line of toys that all they have to promote it are fanboy Dads! Put together a little children's cartoon to tie in the toyline & boom! You have a great selling franchise! I firmly believe that Marvel has some great characters with well thought out origins that have stood the test of time. If they've lasted for 50+ years why can't they crossover to other medias! Oh yeah & bring back THOR!!
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Jul 09, 2005 2:51:29 AM CDT
Marvel doesn't own the rights to make any sort of motion pic
by justice41
DC and Time Warner does. They own the characters and produce the cartoons and movies as well as own the cartoon network. It's a package.
Marvel has all their stuff spread all over the place. To complain Marvel can't make a good cartoon is silly. Why not ask why Sony can't make a good Spidey cartoon or why Fox can't make a good X-men cartoon as they are the ones who have the rights to them in that form.
Besides marvel doesn't ahve a Bruce Timm on their side to help them create a look and feel like he did for Warners.
Bruce would make any marvel character cool as hell. -
I'm sick of hearing about how Brad Bird already made this film and what a genius he is."The Incredibles" was indeed a really good movie ,but it was a total rip off of Fantastic Four.The only "genius" thing he did was to make his film different enough that he couldn't get sued.
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Jul 09, 2005 3:13:30 AM CDT
Where are Minus Penith and Cocolopez??? Since Episode 3 came out
by plazola_mex
Hehehehe Where are you fucking loosers?? Here, here it is a movie you can trash suckers!!! You have lost the war against Star Wars and you have been hidding under the rocks. Pair of losers.
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tHis movie is freaking awesome:
http://download.ifilm.com/qt/portal/2675197_300.mov
When are you gonna open a talkback for this movie.
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Saw it. Liked it. Nuff said.
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Jul 09, 2005 3:39:14 AM CDT
As comic book fans, we're setting ourselves up for disappoin
by serious black
I've liked most comic book movies I've seen, at least on some level (except for Batman & Robin and Blade Trinity). But the only ones that didn't disappoint me at all we're Superman, Batman Begins, X-Men 1, Blade, and The Crow and the last two were just because I had no knowledge of the character going into the movie. I think all comic book movies are destined to fail on some level in that they will never please all of the fans. What most fans are frustrated with is the fact that the people in charge of production are not fans themselves and they truly have no appreciation for what makes these movies appealing to us. And, worse still they're generally too stupid or arrogant to just turn the reins over to a competent director who IS a fan of the material. And even when they do try this (like with Singer on X-Men) they still seem to muck things up. The best illustration is the two versions of Daredevil that are out there. I know a lot of people don't care for either version, but the MSJ's version is so much better than the producer's version that it makes me want to cry. The chopped up theatrical version makes ZERO sense but the head honchos thought it zipped along better or some nonsense. I think Sony has done it better with their Spider-Man movies as far as allowing a fan (Raimi) to do his own thing. Unfortunately for me I don't like Raimi's take on the characters. Oh well, like I said, they're never going please everyone. Sorry to ramble. It's late.
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...I think the standard AICN spelling is 'dissapointment'
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Jul 09, 2005 4:08:53 AM CDT
Just saw it, anyone who says they think it is good or "spectacul
by spectrebeeyatch
I laughed almost all the way through the Punisher. "Bring a knife to a gun fight", its so bad it was good. Same thing here I was laughing at everything in this movie, not at the jokes those sucked hard. This movie should have just cut 2/4 of that set up shit which was so pointless and made the final fight 15 minutes long instead of 2, then the movie would be worth seeing again. I saw it with my friend and I had the free ticket I got in Man of Fire dvd, and my friend paid 10$ and after the movie he said it was such a waste. I on the other hand had two hours of laughs. I repeat SO BAD its good for laughs, but that's it. I liked the actors but this script is just bad in all aspects. "No lets" seriously people in the theater were yelling at the screen and laughing during FX scenes. Not only that the theater was almost empty and we saw a showing at 7:55, bad sign. I love the posts from the Fox production team who try and break down Batman Begins science to try and make F4 look good. Doom grows metal skin, did you take any classes explaining how that could happen? If he can grow metal skin Ra's can have a machine that vaporizes water end of that. Seriously The Phantom was better than this. Remember that movie the guy who wore purple and was fighting pirates? No. Well it was better than this, so was the Shadow which also was hilarious.
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...find the plants on this Talk B ack, it's fun, easy, and so lame the guys at Fox must be desperate given tonight's results where Dark Water might edge FF,,,
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Poor ol' Avi Arad. Fuck, I'm slow
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Jul 09, 2005 5:23:21 AM CDT
Plazola_Mex (and BanthafodderUK, my thoughts are with you and al
by krullboy
Cocolopez will be playing the part of Wilson, the volleyball that will become a coconut pulp lubricated anal bead for MinastirithII. MinastirithII, in the role of Tom Hanks' character, will be flying back to the US after polishing Peter Jackson's knob following the premier of King Kong in New Zealand. When his plan crashes in the South Pacific, he will only have the soothing sounds of Cocolopez's "spoken word" albums to make the time pass by. . .that is, of course, until MinastirithII realizes that the the circumference of his wilson ball (read=Cocolopez) is the same as the greased Palantir that he had shoved up his ass since the New Zealand premier of the Return of the King in November 2003.
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Fluffy thanks for the compliment about my name. What can I say it was a moment of inspirational clarity. Ha sadly it was nothing so pretentious. It just seemed appropos for talkbacking.*****
Pseudoscience.....Jean Grey uses Pschyco-metaplasmic Energy. My favourite, however, is Superman and his Heliotropically triggered Thermonuclear kineticised cellular conversion. -
The Hulk failed for two reasons in my mind. First, and most importantly, the "frames" completely pulled me out of the movie. I was constantly aware that I was looking at light projected onto a large white screen. (Don't get me started on Talbot's jump out of frame Mr. Evil/time machine impersonation.) (Or the "breaking of the plane" during the restaurant scene.) (Ugh!) Second, Banner should have never liked being the Hulk. The comic (and TV show) was always based on how being the Hulk was a curse, not a way to vent having a bad day (or childhood for that matter). I have often wondered how a version of the movie without the multiple frames/bad editing would play. As it is, I'll most likely never watch it again. All of this was particularly disappointing since Hulk was the first comic that I ever got a subscription to way back in grade school. And I loved the TV show when it came out several years later.
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Jul 09, 2005 9:13:07 AM CDT
GOATZINGER, GLAD TO HEAR YOUR ARE KEEPING UP THE COCO LOVE, MATE
by krullboy
I sure do miss those epic TBs with those two fucking morons!!! Only films like ROTS can get them out of their shells (and out of each other's prolapsed colons)
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That's why it will be successful...or at least it will be a huge part of its success. Don't expect more from this film than you would from Herbie, the Love Bug.
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I grew up on comic books. I was telling my girlfriend right before the movie started that I've wanted to see the FF in action for 20 years now, and she just looked at me like " Wow you're old". Anyway, cutting to the chase. I cheered when I saw Thing in his trademark hat and trenchcoat. I thought the Thing suit looked (and sounded) amazing in most scenes and never really "looked fake". Johnny Storm and Ben Grimm do indeed steal this movie. My only real complaint with with the director, Tim Story. It's not that he's a bad directot per-say, just an average one. A lot of the action scenes were a bit....recycyled I suppose. And the overall look of the film was a bit grainy, possibly his cinematographers fault. Overall it was a good time. I laughed , my non-comic reading girlfriend enjoyed it. I went home happy.
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Jul 09, 2005 11:07:51 AM CDT
if this is a kids movie, then it bodes well for kids movies
by burlivesleftnut
Perhaps we can leave dreck like Spy Kids behind for "kids movies" that everyone can enjoy. And all you 'tards who think that only a plant could give a positive review? Fuck off, you cynical assholes. THIS MOVIE GAVE ME A REACH AROUND AND CLEANED UP AFTER!
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www.leesmovieinfo.com. And I agree with the poster that laughed through the whole thing. What a mess that movie was. Jessica Alba was severly miscast, and Horatio Hornblower as Mr. Fantastic was wrong. Also the freaking special effects were cheesy and cheap looking, Doom's motives not grand enough, and the situations of peril were all created by The Fantastic Four. They were not heroes at all. I had the same feeling when I left the theater when I saw The Scorpion King. FF was a kid film. What a shame. Especially after seeing Batman Begins, this film looks like an ABC Family Original Film. The Island is certainly looking better and better.
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"Jessica Alba as Sue Storm (aka Invisible GIRL). Yes, GIRL."
I read that her actual name WAS Invisible GIRL when the FF first came out...not a fan so not sure, but in the movie i recall them first calling her invisible WOMAN..."'hey its sue storm, invisible WOMAN"...and they chase her down the block! Then her brother cracks a joke and calls her GIRL...I think thats what it was, a joke against a guys sister!
Not a fan of FF, didn't think this movie would be good (because of all the negative reviews) but i def. enjoyed it. Not as good as spidey or bb but not as bad as the hulk or the js batmans, actually much better. There were parts where I thought it was questionable, like WOW now the gf is on the bridge? but overall I engjoyed it, but then again I never was an FF fan, so... -
The audience did NOT laugh at the dumb lines, like "No let's". They DID laugh at the jokes. They CLAPPED at the end of the movie (unknown: did they clap 'cuz it was over or bcuz they liked it). The theater was almost full at the 7:something pm show. Kids in the audience LOVED it. Hopefully it'll make money enough for a 2nd greenlight, and that one'll be done right. (xmen1 vs 2 scenario)
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Jul 09, 2005 12:16:47 PM CDT
Daredevil was a pile of poo poo, courtesy of its sloppy CGI and
by axelfoley
What is with all this pro-Daredevil propaganda? The movie has some watchable moments, don't get me wrong but it, at least to me, ranks as a C- average comic book flick. On the plus, I always get chills when I see Affleck (who I think was miscasted but did OK in the role) confronting Kingpin (and it's ok that it was Duncan, really it was) in his office and they say each other's names. Then Kingpin tosses him around like a doll---THAT'S RIGHT OFF THE COMICS.....well usually if you replace Spider-Man with DD but you get the idea. Irish Bullseye with a bald head and riding a Harley was lousy, ditto the acrobatic leaps of him and Elektra toward the end of the movie. Those looked HORRIBLE! How can any of you people overlook that? And I know DD is a comic book movie, but you know...Mark Steven Johnson is a hackboy. That's all he is. Ghost Rider, a comic book I could care less about looks decent, from what little I've heard about it. But for this movie, I dunno, there was lots to be desired. When does a lawyer in a shitty area of NYC afford a casket-like, metallic bath tub-equipped with retractable top? Jennifer Garner looked great, I even liked that whole Evanescence montage at the funeral. That played out well. And sure Favreau has his moments as stodgy wisecrack guy. But other than that the CGI was fucking shit-taculous. And DD doing a cartwheel to kick Bullseye off the motorcycle. Good God. Why didn't they just make the movie R. Why does DD have to be in the "It could have been a contenda" category of comic book film noir? Why is it I'm more interested in the depth of Matt Murdock's portrayal in Bill Bixby's Trial of the Incredible Hulk where DD wore a black ninja suit? Regarding FF, I will see it, possibly tonight, but i have my reserves. As someone who was never fond of that title, it's a Marvel movie, of course I'll see it in the theatres, but anyone getting the feeling this is going to be this summer's Hulk? That, that next month Avi Arad's going to sugarcoat responses as to why 28 year old suits who don't know a goddamn thing about the story simulated calling the shots over someone (Tim Story) they knew they could very well manipulate and take advantage of ---and arguably accept it because he realizes he may not get to many shots at directing something as grandscale as this was intended to be? Is Arad going to tell those at the San Diego Comic Con that it's doing well overseas and the DVD sales will be soaring months after? Guys, Batman Begins owned. It really did. Well done, Chris Nolan. If Singer waves to shore and gets a clue concerning the Man of Steel, well guess FUCKING WHAT. It's Captain America II with Burke from Revenge of the Nerds all over again. Surely that'll be doing great on On-Demand and in Suncoast Stores right Avi? -
BTW, is it me or is it totally ridiculous that WotW and FF are both PG-13? WotW should've gotten an R for disturbing vaporizing of carbon-based lifeforms. FF should've gotten a PG. It didn't because of Doom blowing holes in people. But was that necessary? And how can that really compare to WotW's depictions? If The Incredibles could manage to be a great movie with a PG, the FF should've been able to at least be the same mediocre one it is, with a PG. I'm sick of "cool violence" being added to spike up a rating. Why are we trying to bait our adolescents with promises of Mortal Kombat fatalities? WotW? It's an R. It's a fuckin' hard R. How it got PG-13 has to do with Spielberg and Cruise and Paramount greasing the wheels. If kids wanna see it, they should have to sneak in with their underage parents. FF? It's a "family" movie, so why spike it for a PG-13? "Sexual innuendo"? Ok, I wouldn't get rid of that, 'cuz the Human Torch had some of the funniest lines... but that wouldn't have sent it into the PG-13 realm (I'm guessing). I don't have a problem w/PG-13 movies... it's just that if FF wanted to be a PG-13, then it should have had Doom threatening the world and killing dozens and whatnot. For 1 guy made into toast in a parking garage? It's a waste. That could have been done as a PG death. The way it is it's done utterly w/commercial intent. I know 60% of you all are exactly the target for this kind of crap, seeing as how you equate "dark" and violence w/quality (see Sin City, or Ep3... both crap, in the end, despite some good moments), another 20% of you don't understand what I'm saying... but hey all, wake UP! Studios are dumb enough to think a movie like FF can't draw an audience unless it's PG-13. Look at BB, B, DD, X1, X2... is FF in the same league re: violence? No, right? Then why artificially push it for a PG-13? It's pure cynicism on their part. and the FF is anything but.
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Buy a ticket to something decent and then see F4. Unfortunately, in the town I'm in, it's splitting screentime in the same theatre with Batman, and there's nothing else worth seeing. Damn.
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Jul 09, 2005 1:06:45 PM CDT
axelfoley, not sure if you're referring to my post or not...
by serious black
...but my point was whether or not you like the DD director's cut, it has a plot that makes sense. By cutting out the Coolio subplot in for theaters they removed the entire reasoning for the Kingpin to get arrested. In the theatrical version DD just goes in and kicks Kingpin in the knees and we learn from Matt that "word is out on the Kingpin" but we don't see how the cops figure out Fisk is Kingpin. My point was that some bone-headed producer thought this version was better because it was fast paced and to hell with whether or not it made a lick of sense. Personally, I think DD director's cut is one of the best superhero movies out there, definitely not in league with Batman Begins or The Crow, but better than Spider-Man 2.
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Brad Bird ripped off the FF Fuckadoodledo. You know, there are only so many super powers to go around. One could make the same case that Marvel & DC ripped each other off left & right for uncounted years. BUT. Which character in the FF could run like Jesse Owens on crack? Which two characters in the FF were minor children? Which members of The Incredibles caught fire? One could spend years nitpicking, whining about who ripped off who or which came first, the chicken or the egg? Weren't the Avengers a direct response to The Justice League? So what. Big deal. The FF movie was entertaining...it had some nice moments ( Mark Frost, one half of the writing team in the credits, is a pretty good writer after all), some clunky moments ( if Alba can't "act", again - who cares? Being Sue Storm doesn't call for Meryl Streep, does it?) but in the end, it was at least fun. I had hoped for more, but I don't think FF is nearly as lousy as some people on this talkback have made it out to be, many of whom haven't even seen the film. Some of my earlier posts were based on my first viewing which, to be fair, came at a very bad time. But you know, Evans & Chiklis were pretty damned good, separately & especially together. Was reed Richards ever Mr. Excitement in the comic? Sure, if Jame Cameron or Raimi or (insert director here) had this project, we might all have been saying "wow" "zowee" or "schpledonkal". Maybe for the sequel. Yo Scratcher - give Daredevil a look ( the extended edition). It wasn't a great movie, but it's worth eyeballing.
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I gave them no reason to love it. I didn't say daddy used to read these so I hope you like it. And I gave them no reason to hate it, saying Dr. Doom was supposed to be a genius dictator and Alicia was not a barfly. They know nothing going in they hadn't seen on TV, and they loved it. So did the audience. Was I annoyed? Yes. Although not by the hijinks, the pranks and the squabbling, which was right out of the comics, especially the very early ones. And it's a waste of a good villian to turn Dr. Doom into the love child of of Donald Trump and Electro. And I was surprised when I saw what they had done with Alicia, because I can't believe no one complained about it. The actress was fine in every sense, but the choices made about the way to present her, the worda and actions given her, lessened a character that is central to the Ben Grimm story. Alicia fell in love with Ben bAsed on his kindness. It was a real beauty and the beast sort of story. In the film she comes off as some hard-drinking hoochie that gets off on guys with rock hard abdomens. The actress, whose name I can't recall, has done good work elsewhere and would have totally been up to doing the part as originally conceived in the books. A head-shaker,that one. But there's no way this film deserves the enmity heaped on it. Yeah, it played like a TV pilot more than a film, but that's the way of most would-be franchises these days. The origin story of Spider-man just happened also to be one of the best stories in the comics, so it made a good first film. The origin story and first issue of the FF introduced the characters and their personalities, but was nothing, storywise, compared to what came later.
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Should be a question mark after "ripped off the FF?" My four year old decided to help, with predicable results.
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Take heart, lettersoftransit - perhaps when Doc gets back to Latveria we'll see the Doom we read about. But about Alicia - damn, dude. Its possible to go get a libation without being "barfly" or being a "hard drinking hoochie". She bought Ben a triple - she wasn't having one herself. She seemed perfectly sober heading for the door ( from personal experience I can tell you that blind people, sane ones, do not go out bar hopping alone or get munted in public often. Or at all. I think what they went for, instead of Ben's kindness towards her, was having her be the one who doesnt treat him as a monster. A thing. In the context of the comic, sure its off. But I was glad to see her in the film, & in the context of what they were about cinema-wise, it worked better. ( hombre, youse aint a teetotaler, are ya?)
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For those of you who weren't present, this is the result of a discussion that was on the subject of the microwave beam used to vaporize gotham's water supply. Now, a warning, I'm not for one to nitpick the science. I don't care if the numbers don't add up, because it gives us something fun to do. If this doesn't contribute to your enjoyment of the movie, then by all means, skip over this. It's certainly not necessary to know this to appreciate Batman Begins for what it is. But I've ran into alot of wannabe scientists online. They talk a good game, but when you actually ask them to shut up or put up, show the math and numbers, they back down. Kai didn't know how microwaves worked, but he liked the superior feeling he felt throwing out a fact or two and then looking down his nose at everyone else. But I want to say one more thing before I start. Physics is a skill. Physics is something you train to master. It's not like learning government, or the humanities, or poetry where you just fill your head with as much useless facts as possible. It's been said that all knowledge is either physics, or it's stamp collecting. Meaning if you're not doing the math and understanding the relationships and mechanics of how things work, then you're just collecting and categorizing stuff. Just as you can't know computers unless you get in there and write code or get into the guts of the machine to see how it works. (By the way, I don't. So I don't make the claim.) I remember having to explain to a guy that downloading a new ring tone on his cell phone does not constitute a hack. And the only way to understand physics is to get in there and do the math. You can talk a good game, but unless you can sit down and back it up, you're just a bystander. The fact that Kai didn't even believe me when I said how easy it is to run the numbers on this, is further evidence to me that he has never done a real physics problem in his life. I don't even know if this is advanced enough to be AP level stuff. This isn't condensed matter physics or quantum gravity or anything like that. You don't have to have a doctorate to know this. This is so easy that someone who does this for a living would laugh at how rudimentary this is. He might show you on a cocktail napkin. Anybody could learn to do this in 20 minutes. In fact, hopefully after reading this, you will. And then you too will laugh at Kai and his pretensions. Personally, in a movie I don't care if the science is right. I don't care that in Superman 1, Superman actually increased the force by flying up to catch her, at least doubling it, that Lois Lane would have hit with had she hit the ground. For me, it's fun and adds a second dimension by trying to figure this stuff out. I don't know if anyone's still interested, but here we go. I'm going to do it in a second post to try and break up these long monotonous messages.
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the re-writing of Dr. Doom pretty much sucked, and there were some holes in logic (why did Alba have to turn invisible on the Bridge? that didn't even make sense other than to show off how hot she is in panties.) but i enjoyed the rest of it. although not a classic by any stretch of the imagination, it certainly isn't nearly as bad as some of you are saying it is. (on a 4 star scale, i'd give it 2.5). and the overtly negative reviews in the press has me perplexed. maybe because the Incredibles was very similar (and better)? Daredevil and Blade Trinity still stand as the worst superhero movies of recent memory. Spiderman 1&2, the best. anyways, the theatre i was in was packed, and people seemed really into it, so... guess we can all expect FF2 in about 2 years... and i think it deserves it. i was entertained.
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First we're going to figure out how many joules to raise the temperature from room temperature to boiling point. Well, for good
measure let's make it a few degrees below boiling point as it's night time and a good deal of the water is underground.
As mentioned before, the specific heat capacity of water is 4186 joules. What this means is that it takes 4186 joules to raise the
temperature of 1 kilogram of water, by 1 degree. This is also called the 'calorie' in nutrition. If you ever wondered what that means on
the side of the cereal box, that's it. (Although it might get confusing, because in physics and chemistry, the term calorie is used to mean
a thousandth of this, but nevermind that.)
The formula for the energy needed (Delta E) here is Delta E=mc(T2-T1) where m =
the mass in kilograms, c=the specific heat capacity, and T2 is the final temperature (which will be 100 C at sea level, boiling point for us) and T1 equals the starting temperature (A bit lower than room temperature. Let's say 20 C).
Now we multiply 2,082,000,000,000 kilograms times the 4186 times 80 and we get 697,220,160,000,000,000 joules. A joule is the fundamental unit of energy, like kilogram is the fundamental unit of mass, or a newton is the fundamental unit to measure force.
That brings us to boiling point. What we now need to do is add that to what's called the specific latent heat. See, there's no temperature rise at boiling point, so
all the energy you put into the water, will go toward breaking the molecular bonds. The specific latent heat of steam is 2.3 million joules per kilogram. So we see that it's going to take us 2.3 million joules to turn 1 kilogram of water into 1 kilogram of steam.
The Delta E here going to be mass times 'l', the representing the latent heat. So it's m x l or 2.3 million joules x 2.082 trillion kilograms of water, which gives us 4,788,600,000,000,000,000 joules. So we're going to add the the energy it took us to get to boiling point, with the energy it takes us to break the bonds and vaporize
the water. 697,220,160,000,000,000 plus 4,788,600,000,000,000,000 = 5,485,820,160,000,000,000 joules.
So, now we move onto what's going to be supplying all those joules, all that energy: The prototyper microwave laser. For the maser, we want as powerful as we can get, so I'm going to go with the 5 MW (mega-watt or one million watts) free electron maser which was proposed to be a tunable output for the 1 MW FEM that was constructed at the FOM Institute (Rijnhuizen) Netherlands for 'practical electron cyclotron resonance heating' according to their site. But if someone has a better maser in mind, go ahead and tell me. The microwave beam in Begins was said to be a prototype, and thus we can venture a guess that it would be one of the most powerful masers built so far, otherwise what would be the point of highjacking it. One thing I'm not sure of though. I thought I remembered them saying there were two of them, but that might be just my imagination. Does anyone else remember? If so, we're going to have to double the watts, because we're having twice the amount of energy(joules) imparted to the water per second.
So what we want to know is how long would it take to get to the 5,485,820,160,000,000,000 joules joules needed to vaporize all the water. So we divide the joules needed by the watts supplied to get the time needed. Now as a reversal, we could start with the time it takes in the movie from when they start the device to when it begins vaporizing. And then we could find out how powerful of a maser you'd have to have to vaporize all that water in that amount of time. If someone has the movie downloaded, give me the exact time and we can do this next. But anyway 5,485,820,160,000,000,000 divided by 5,000,000 is 1097164032000 seconds. Or 18286067200 minutes. Or
304767786.6 hours, or 12698657.7 days or 34,790 years. Now that's staggering actually. I suspected that it wouldn't be enough, but this is far past not enough. Now if there's any typos, or if I missed a digit somewhere, I'm sure I'll hear about it. So, what I want to do next is see how long it was shown in the movie, and how many watts you'd need to equal that. If anyone's interested, that is. -
"a few degrees below boiling point" = a few degrees below room temperature.
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The 2,082,000,000,000 kg figure is the amount of water in New York's water supply. I used them as a model for Gotham's. According to the page 'Celebrating New York City's Clean Drinking Water' (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/celebrate.html) there are 550 billion gallons in making up their total water supply.
550 billion gallons = approx. 2082 billion litres, or just over two trillion liters. (This is using the short scale. 10 to the 12th power. Many non-english speaking countries still use the long scale in which a trillion would be 10 to the 18th power.)
Litres measure volume, but we want mass, not volume. Mass is measured by kilograms. Mass = volume x density. Luckily, we don't have to do any work there because the density of water is 1 kg per litre. So we have 2,082,000,000,000 kilograms.
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If anyone is interested, I have amassed a "few" reviews of FF and the *cough*actor*cough* that portrays Doom.
http://www.livejournal.com/community/julian_hate/ -
Jul 09, 2005 3:12:07 PM CDT
As stupid as the scene was, I must confess Alba looks hot as hel
by terry_1978
And that's all I have to say about that.
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I have to disagree with one aspect of your critique of Fantastic Four, stating that Julian is a fan of the character.
From interviews and conversations at conventions, it looks like he is making an attempt at being a fan of the character, for publicity purposes and it is showing.
While he proclaims how much he loves the character and compares him to Darth Vader, when asked specific questions about the character he is at a loss as to how to answer.
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I recently remembered Avid directed most of the Spider-Man cartoons and was involved with an X-men cartoon run. When ever I happened to catch one and see something stupid I would think "Well, it's for kids, I
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Sequel for sure! (sigh of relief)
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Forget this talk about Penn being the new Joker for the batman sequel! If the production really want inspirational casting then they should look towards a certain Johnny Depp. The guy has the charisma and talent to make the role his own!!
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I think it's funny how now that there are people (myself included) that are posting that this movie is actually pretty good, we all must be "PLANTS" who aren't genuine. Looks like the naysayers just can't admit defeat. Also notice how almost everyone who says it sucks HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN IT! While most who have seen it at least say it was OK. DON'T BE FOOLED! Make up your own mind and see it for yourself.
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This is interesting because Fantastic Four has the exact rating as Batman Begins, was released on roughly the same number of screens (Actually, Begins had a few more. BB: 3,858, FF: 3,602), and both had similar budgets. So as many on the talkbacks were predicting, FF may make more bank, and at least a part of that can be attributed to the kids.
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Depp would be inspired casting, but what that has to do with the FF movie... Julian McMahon doesnt seem to have won over anyone who saw FF - fanboys, haters or casual viewers. I'm afraid he may have gotten the role solely due to the media fawning over Nip/Tuck, as opposed to being the right actor for the role. ( hmmm actors from Nip/Tuck & The Shield - two shows on F/X. Coincidence? I think not.)
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And I thought Doom was well done for one reason and one reason only: NO BIZARRO PLOT TO DESTROY THE WORLD. All he wanted was to kill Reed for ruining his life and business. But who doesn't want to kill Reed? Also, I know McMahon didn't have a lot to do with it, but I thought the rendering of Doom at the end after all his shit was burnt off was classic in a John Byrne kind of way. The more I think about this movie the more I like it, methinks. Avi must be controlling my mind.
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Jul 09, 2005 4:57:47 PM CDT
Batman also had five days to make what it did. FF will probably
by justice41
Just shows you that people just want something to be entertained by, something they can bring kids to and geek out with em.
Why you guys hate children is beyond me but that's what I'm hearing, either that or you guys are a bit too self centered and only want your jollies appeased.
I predict this flick will make just over 55 million in three days knocking WOTW to nummer 3 after the Jen Connelly flick. -
Originally posted this in Harry's review, but that TB is partially fubar, so reposting here. Movie is nowhere near as bad as being reported. Not perfect, but not awful either. First -- I'm not a friggin plant. Must have pissed off enough of you in other TB by now. But I *am* a fanboy. Not afraid to admit I'm an FF fanboy either. Hundreds and hundreds of issues spanning nearly 20 years. Love these characters. Hated the crawl up until I saw it today. Hated all the major departures from the source material I'd been hearing. Did I love the film? No, yet still found it to be an enjoyable adaptation, not unlike the X movies. Cannot understand how you people allow yourselves to wallow in your own contradiction. Singer's adaptation of X-Men was far less faithful than Story's FF. Yes, Doom was not handled well, but neither was Nightcrawler. Doom was more Simon Cowell than the comic meglomaniacal genius, inventor and sorceror. In the comics, Kurt takes traditional studies to become a priest. In Singer's take, he's an extremeist zealot that engages in self mutilation to atone for what he mistakes for sins. In the comics, Kurt hated what he went through in the German circus. In Singer's movie, he relishes every chance to exclaim how he was known as the magnificent Nightcrawler. Gimme a break, you people. You can't laud one movie that's leaps and bounds away from the source material while hating another that merely diverts here and there. Yeah, on the surface Doom appears to have been fucked over, but there was enough hinting throughout the film to foreshadow a more traditional Doom in the sequel, if there is one. It was an origin, people. It's what led up to Doom assuming the mantle of Latveria. The way I see it, the FF movie Doom is an amalgam of the traditional and ultimate FF comic. Could he have been done better? Of course! Could he have been done way worse? Yeah, he could have as bad as I had been led to believe. Doom's only motivation in the book was a single scar on his face, so I bought movie Doom's motivation more easily -- that as a man losing eveything including his prettyboy face -- if he can't have anything then no one can. Similarities to Gobby in Spider-Man 1 be damned. Have to admit McMahon did good up until he put the mask on. He was too soft spoken. There was no classic Doom monologuing. Would have preferred Geoffrey Rush or Alan Rickman, but McMahon ended up putting in a good effort. Way better than I'd expected. I also didn't buy the relationship between he and Sue, but at the end Sue says there was no relationship anyway. It was just a front, with the subtext of it being her way of recapturing Reed's attention. Don't any of you haters listen? Like that scene on the bridge, Ben did not start it no matter how many of you try to convince yourselves he did. Ben was only starting to get used to the changes he was going through, including his massive weight increase. Recall how he still had to remember to step off the elevator *after* the bridge scene? Damn, the guy was breaking everything he touched up untill the end of the movie. Anyhow, the accident stemmed from an unfortunate consequence of the beam buckling underneath him as he approached the suicider. He managed to counter the fall and still save the guy, which resulted in the car crash, a domino effect. When things cooled down, a gas cannister exploded, sending the firetruck into a spin. Things were fine up until that point, and they didn't intentionally blow up the cannister! If you think the FF caused it all, then you must admit that the X-Men put civilians in danger at the train station when the Brotherhood showed up. The FF didn't save any lives? Then how do you think the firemen got back onto the bridge? Did the mutants save any lives in X1? You could argue that in the closing scene they saved the population of Manhattan, but wasn't that just a side-effect of stopping Magneto? The FF didn't use their powers together as a team? Then how do you explain the way Doom was taken down at the end? Both in how they fought him and then stopped him. It was a more satisfying sequence than in during the final act of X1 in the Statue of Liberty, where Grey and Storm fly Logan up to the torch -- the only scene in that film I recall where they used their powers together as a team. At least the FF were still learning their abilities throughout the movie, unlike the X-Men who had been training together since they were teens. Sure there were plot conveniences in the FF that didn't need to be. Ben getting cured was a groaner and again not wanting to be cured at the end of the FF is about as stupid as Magneto not having ripped the adamantium from Logan at any time during X1 and X2. Doom managing to turn Ben against Reed was as improbable as Xavier and Magneto having built Cerebro together. Ben's fiance running out onto the street in her lingerie was as convenient a plot device as the mind control watch batteries in X2. Gruffud played Reed too smirky and cheeky while Alba played Sue more viciously confrontational than she is in the comics, but they did nowhere near as awful as the actors who portrayed Sabertooth and Storm in X1 and Deathstrike in X2 (though that was more a fault of how she was used as opposed to they way she was played). And X1 was the same damn story as X2 for fuck's sake, right down to taking Xavier out of the second act! Bottom line, Singer had *much* less respect for his source material than Story did. You bitches just refuse to admit it. I've allowed myself to enjoy X1 and X2 for the adaptations they turned out to be, despite the vast differences from the comic roots you people claim to be so faithful. There's enough classic FF stuff in the movie if you're willing to look. But will you people allow yourselves to enjoy FF? Of course not. It's way more fun to bitch.
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There are several posters on this very talk back who have said they went to see it and it was terrible. One person who saw it said it was "so bad it hurt".
Harry and Quint both saw it and gave it a mostly bad review. An entire crew of professional reviews are collected at Rotten Tomatoes. They saw it and decided for themselves. Their reaction ranged from "God awful" to "Weak, but there are some fun parts." But most reviews were extremly negative. Some very creatively negative. I loved the one that wrote it as Dr. Doom.
Box office success does not invalidate the very real complaints of these people or their opinions. nor does it remove the films flaws.
But the best possible out come may have been achieved. It will make enough money to insure a sequel. But it's short comings have been pointed out enough that they learn from their mistakes and do better next time.
Maybe if Fox kicks some of the PR money back into the production of the film, they can hire good CGI techs for the next one. Perhaps the FF and Doom will be more on their feet and the presentation truer to the aspects that gained them so many fans in the first place.
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I got to accept that it's a kid's film. Nothing wrong with a kid's film. They need movies too. Family's together and all that stuff.
I had not really thought about it till dave and Justice 41 pointed it out, but there is sort of a balance here. Batman Begins for those who want it grittier and darker,and FF for family, fun and kids. It actualy seems good strategy for them to go after the market share that felt left out by the Batman film. -
Jul 09, 2005 5:55:57 PM CDT
Well, the difference between FF and Batman Begins aside from qua
by mr. profit
So the FF fanboys really need to stop acting like they were all right and the movie is going to be some huge hit. I dont see this film even surpassing the 175 mil mark domestically. Next weekend expect a 60 something percent drop off as Willy Wonka takes over the box office. I dont have nothing against children but they already have a film for them coming out. Sky High. How anyone over the age of 13 can say the FF film was great is beyond me. The effects were ass and the fact that it cost more than 100 mil to make makes me wonder who walked away with 95 million?
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Jul 09, 2005 6:13:31 PM CDT
spectrebeeyatch, "Doom grows metal skin, did you take any classe
by immortal_fish
Hey, Brainiac -- Another guy in the same movie grows rock skin. Try and suspend disbelief, hater, m'kay? And while we're at it, doesn't a guy grow metal skin in Singer's X2? But that's okay, of course. Tap dancing Christ on ice, this is the classic double standard I've been bellyaching about. Don't like it? Fine. But don't hate one movie for doing something that you love another movie for doing the same.
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What is a review? A review is the OPINION of the reviewer. Another person may agree with that OPINION, or may disagree. Assuming they are capable of independent thought. I read so much negative publicity on FF I was expecting a truly bad movie. But, in my OPINION, it was much better than I expected. Liked the Thing and the Torch. Reed got better as movie went on. Alba is eye candy - but I would risk cavities to suck on that candy anyday. Didn't like the treatment of Doom, but I honestly can't think of a way to do the traditional comic version without it seeming outlandish in modern-day terms. My rating would be a 6 on a scale of 10. But, again, that is just my OPINION. You are free to agree, or disagree - but remember - your OPINION does not invalidate my OPINION. We just see things differently. Oh - I agree with some of the comments on X1 and X2. Prof. X is supposed to be one of the most powerful mutants on earth - so both films concoct bogus plot devices to take him out of action for most of the film. And the Green Goblin in Spidey 1 was a let-down. FF is decidedly not a classic, but it was a fun way to spend an afternoon at the movies. Note I said afternoon - bargain matinee is the only way to go.
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Jul 09, 2005 6:26:56 PM CDT
Hate Doom? Then you should hate Jackman's Wolverine EQUALLY
by immortal_fish
Doom was the third spoke in a contrived love triangle that didn't exist in the comics. Logan was the third spoke in a contrived love triangle that didn't exist in the comics. Movie Doom was adapted into a Trump like company head for the sake of film plot. Movie Logan went from a 5-foot, ugly 60-something to a 6-foot, 30-something chick magnet for the sake of film plot. Sure, Doom should have been played by an elder Shakespearean actor. Sure, Logan should have been played by Harvey Keitel. But only one of them was adapted to screen with love and devotion to the source material. No matter, of course, that Singer hadn't a clue about Kirby's X-Men and actually had to READ some X-Men comics AFTER he was awarded the job. It's only important to note how Story turned the FF into an affirmative action grab, regardless of the cold fact how Singer turned the X-Men from an allegory of discrimmination to an allegory to homosexuality. "Have you ever tried 'not' being a mutant?" Please. You people have invested too much time hating to allow yourselves to admit what even Harry can't bring himself to admit. FF ain't any worse than the X movie. But, no, no, no. Singer -- GOOD!! Story -- BAD!! Baa! Baa! Anyone need some wool?
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Immortal, I can see what you mean. Argh that annoys me though. I mean what I didnt like about Doom was that he was the corporate guy. Norman Osborn 2.0. I could have lived with McMahon as Doom if he was still Latverian ruler. In fact he would have made an amazing all powerful hugely egotistical, narcissitic dictator. On a side note the best possible casting for Wolverine would have been Bruce Willis. I wouldn't think anyone could name a better Wolverine.
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Jul 09, 2005 6:59:43 PM CDT
Logan doesn't "grow" metal skin. He has an adamantium skelet
by mr. profit
Why do many characters look like a casting agent from WeHo picked many of them? Wolverine looked like a butch gay man. And who does he fight in the films? Women. And Doom? He was mad shady, like someone threw out his Daniel Beddingfield CD and he threw a tantrum. His motives were silly. You dont get any idea that he is a genius. He is just a generic villain who looked like the green goblin with an Ewok cape. What a silly film. To argue about it pointless because it's not even worth it. This film will be forgotten about next year the same way every overrate yet mediocre film is. Where the fuck is James Cameron?
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*overrated
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The man who grows metal skin in X2 was Colossus. And also, that Kai guy was a complete nincompoop. He amused me and my family, and I pine for his return.
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Thank you for obviating your ignorance to comic cannon and for obviating your rash hatred despite the cold clear facts. Of course Logan doesn't grow metal skin, fool. Collossus does. How's that crow taste?
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Come on dude, read the posts before me.
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I probably did not get your sarcasm about Wolvie. My bad.
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:) I re-read yet again. Hey it aint my fault, I forgot Collossus was even in that film.
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Why would I be eating crow? It was just a post. I dont take shit too seriously on the internet. I can respect that you like the movie. Im not mad at ya at all. And in my post I did not try to diss you either. So to go on a tirade calling me ignorant was a bit extreme. Have a good day.
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Look, I hate it too. I wanted the real deal Doom. We didn't get that. I admit this. Reed wasn't Reed either! Neither was Sue. Look, Doom can still develop into what we want. This was an ORIGIN film! Despite it all, consider the foreshadowing throughout the entire film. Doom wasn't killed off, unlike Osmond. The groundwork has been laid out. Check out the Ultimates canon, the real Doom still has a chance at happening. Hell, the Invincible's Syndrome proved how the common populace can grasp that regular people can wear stupid costumes and work for a dictator. This film had bigger problems to focus on!! Let's crap on them instead of Doom, which was the least of its worries. Damn, think of him as Anakin and I've converted at least half of you already.
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Keep in mind, I've yet to see this movie, but I was reading a couple of reviews from people on the 'net last night and somehow I got to thinking: do we fanboys give it more slack than we should because it's a comic book movie? While I understand (I even wrote about it on this here thread) that prejudice towards the comics can encourage some blinkered criticism of the film, I think it works both ways. Imagine you had no idea who the Fantastic Four were, or what the fuck you were seeing when you walked into the theater. Would you still like it as much as you did (or didn't, as the case may be)?
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I apologize for calling you ignorant. I shouldn't have done that. Instead, I should have let your three rapid fire posts do the work for me. :) I mean, anyone who takes the time to educate anyone in anything is clearly superior. After all, who eats crow other than people who admit themselves that they're rawng? But ultimately, this is just the internet and we're just talking about what is just a movie. It's not like you've posted to bash the FF flick more times than you can count on your fingers and toes, right? Please, we're all still here because we give a shit. You intend on crapping on the FF. I intend to blast you with facts and truth. Deal. I'm sure trying.
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I just took my 12 year old stepson, who is far more discerning than most kids his age. We both liked it (maybe me a bit more, since I grew up with FF). But my expectations were correct. I wasn't expecting brooding or psychological depth (like Batman Begins, which I loved) or social issues (like X-Men), I expected popcorn, cheesy fun. That's right, I said it. Popcorn. I don't think I'm "lowering" my standards - not all comic book films (let alone films in general) are created equal, neither should they be. I laughed quite a bit, was impressed by Chiklis (I never watched The Commish or the Shield, but oddly enough I dated a woman he was engaged to years ago) and dug some of the effects. Could it have been better? Of course. Alba was ok, but anyone could have played that role. And sure, the first thing out of Johnny's mouth is a commercial, but he's not the deepest guy in the Marvelverse, so I had no problem. I do agree with the above poster that Doom should have had more gravitas (sorry, Kiefer). Maybe now that he's burned , he'll have a more imposing voice in the sequel. The problem was, since they went younger with Reed, they had to go younger with Doom to match the story. And sure nothing much happens - it's about a family establishing itself, and it has to against Doom. My only major problem SPOILERS - is reversing Grimm. Though it fit Doom's plan, and I even bought that Grimm got Thinged up again to stop Doom, but the whole decision that he's "ok as is" seemed completely unmotivated and contradictory to everything we saw of the character. They could have just left it with Grimm being ambivalent and Reed promising to try again, but to just sweep it away like nothing was weak. Part of the problem was the mishandling of the Alicia Masters subplot. If we saw how important she was then maybe we'd understand better. I'd like to see those deleted scenes. END SPOILER Wasn't Grimm's wife the female X on the X-Files? Anyway, this was a perfectly fine start to a franchise which hopefully will improve.
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Jul 09, 2005 7:54:20 PM CDT
Hey, I always supported the film before it's release. I saw
by mr. profit
As I posted fast the last time and forgot all about Collossus in X2. Honest mistake. Also someone even accused me of being a Fox studio employee because I was mad that people unfairly dissed the film. Now that its out I cant argue with anyone as I was proven wrong. The film for me was weak and I did not like it. And Im not in the mood to go back and forth. Maybe you should blast Harry and Quint with facts and truth. Nothing is going to change my opinion on how the movie was weak. Good night :)
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Oh and I wanted to add, immortal fish, I don't really agree with your X-Men comparisons. They didn't change Wolverine to fit the story - they changed it because they found a great actor to play it (remember Dougray Scott was supposed to play him and backed out because of MI? Can't imagine that now, can we?) Maybe they should have given him a hairier back, but Harvey Keitel? Come on. That's an interesting idea but one that would have never worked. Having Harvey Keitel running around with a bunch of people half his age would have looked ridiculous. He's far too old now anyway. Maybe 20 years ago. I'm also not sure I agree with your Nightcrawler comments, especially since they're contradictory. In the comics, he was much more of an Errol Flynn swashbuckler who was able to keep up his spirits even through the bad shit. So his attitude about the carnival thing totally fit. Now I do agree that the scar tattoos were a deviation. But were still interesting. Now either you want him brooding or you want him swashbuckling. I was hoping as his character developed we would see less brood and more buckle, but sadly that's not going to happen in X3. Overall, I just wanted to say that if you go to see FF expecting YOUR FF than you'll be disappointed. Most of the negative fanboy reviews are about how they were expecting some interpretation (esp. Doom) that wasn't there. If you actually accept that this is the Hollywood FF, than you might actually have some fun.
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I'm set to go see it tomorrow afternoon, so what I say is merely speculative, a kind of whatiffing. But I see the phrases 'it's a popcorn movie' and 'just expect to be entertained' being thrown around alot. Personally, I'm pretty pleased with having a movie that's pure fun, after the slate of grim and gritty fair we've had so far this summer. But this begs a certain question. I don't recall any of the angst or character depth in the Spider-Man movies and X-Men movies interfering much with them working as entertainment or being great popcorn movies. Honestly, the most entertaining movies I can remember use those things to draw you in, to make the danger more palpable when they made you care about the characters, to make the victories that much more sweet at the end. I don't think it's very likely that I'll shred this movie tomorrow, because we all have some idea what we're getting into, but I think I would have had more fun if they tried a little harder.
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Thats the ONLY reason why she's made it in hollywood. Hundreds of more talented capable actresses, and they go with the least talented one. Its obvious she's more than willing to take it up her banana-bitin' tail pipe. Word.
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Thing with her having a show of her sculptures and the Thing was with her. Remember the stills that had her and ben walking the streets and in Front of that Art Gallery called Kirby. Anyone remember this? Go to superherohype, they may still have the pics.
I also read there are other scenes that got clipped for time. Maybe they'll show up in the DVD.
It wasn't a popcorn movie like The Mummy Returns. That was just a rehash of the first flick. This movie more reminded me of the tv show Married with Children. It was just a bit wacky and funny. It never tries to justify or explain things, or dwell on them which is what may turn the geeks off. Take Johnny just accepting that he could burst into flames or Reed his stretching. But to me it was the same as the book. Anyone notice how Sue's nose bled after she used her shield's just like it was done in the Ultimate's version? -
Jul 09, 2005 10:02:15 PM CDT
Here's a site with those pics from the scenes I talked about
by justice41
Too bad they didn't include it in the final cut.
http://www.hollywoodnorthreport.com/
insidefantasticfour.php -
Jul 09, 2005 10:05:44 PM CDT
McMahon was the only actor I liked in the damn flick. super sli
by tall_boy
Thats about it.
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I think 20.8 million is the latest figure now that the returns are starting to be tallied, now that they're not just going off an estimate. A very nice coming out party indeed.
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..to change the history and/or motivations of characters from comics than from other adapted print stories? I know it happens, but it seems to be more frowned upon when it happens to characters from novels or mythology, etc. Doom could easily have been a senior diplomat from Latveria, or a respected aerospace researcher taking part in an international launch. You could have a few throwaway lines explaining his & Reed's history. Launch to space, cosmic rays are let in by a miscalculation of ray shields (that Doom made, but blames on faulty data provided by Reed). Back on earth, powers develop, family dynamics, Doom grows increasingly hostile as he mutates. News of military coup in Latveria, international community decides to stay out of it. FF become media darlings. This enrages Doom because media is saturated by FF coverage, Latverian situation pushed to the background. Now we have a reason for Doom to want to destroy the FF, while making him somewhat sympathetic, except for his extreme ego. Big fight, Doom is defeated and then escapes custody. FF are heroes for stopping Doom, not at fault for his escape. Last scene: new Latverian dictator and cabinet shown discussing policy. "Any other business?"....."Oh yes." All heads turn, there's Vic. Cut to black. You keep the cores of the characters, enough of the comic flavor to satisfy everyone, AND make a little statement about how fickle and celebrity-centric our media is. That is just one possible way it could have gone. Maybe my little idea is just as bad as Goblin 2.0. But, this only took about 10 minutes. How long was the film in production?
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Sheep.
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Either that or you did but have no knowledge about all the new versions of the FF origins out there. This Origin is an amalgamation of all of them. The classic trip in space, The Hero's Reborn trip in space to find out and explore the space anomally,The ultimates version where reed has known Victor all the time and does do something that causes them to all get changed. Even in the crappy Corman one Reed knew Victor Doom. Nothing about Johnny has changed They used both versions of Sue from HR and UFF, the more agressive one. They used the HR version of ben who was a Military test pilot. But in every version Reed knows of Doom.
Latveria is mentioned in the movie and if you listen closely when Vic's people are kicking him to the curb one even mentions that Vic should go back to Latveria as a conquering hero or a long lost son. Something to that effect. Latveria would be a Balkan state, more than likely a Poor country. With the real way things are now Latveria would be a friendly nation just getting out of the grips of the Russkies. But we'll see because Vic is still alive and does get shipped back to his country. -
If you can reread my posts just above and tell me in anyway how I associate the two?
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Or some of you wouldn't be bragging about how much Starwars flicks make or how much Batman Begins made or how much WOTW made. People who say that obviously must not have jobs either. The quality of the work you put out will be rewarded by just compensation. If My clients don't get the best artwork I can do, they will go somewhere else because their money spent should equal the quality of whatever it is they purchased.
BO has just become the new tool of judging a movies quality. This is a business, there are no sure hits, so in reality big budget or no budget the only thing that matters is, is it what people want and will they pay to see it. -
Jul 10, 2005 1:30:39 AM CDT
Saw it tonight and at at the end a kid in the row behind me said
by axelfoley
I laughed. It was good time fun, exactly what I thought this movie was contrary to the crap this movie is getting. The audiences seemed to love it, the critics depise it. This was better than I expected, no really. It was a fun movie. Albeit, I had some problems with Grimm making a crack about Johnny having blond hair(which he does in the comics) but in the movie Evan had JET FUCKING BLACK HAIR. I also HATED how Doom's voice was the exact same with the mask. It just looked like some guy talking in a S and M flick. Other than that, everything came out OK. And the reality of this IMHO is despite its flaws its STILL better than the Hulk. Thoughts?
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Fight Club did lousy numbers at the box office so it wasn't quality? Miyazaki's works don't gross anygthing here in the states so I guess there's no quality involved in his work. "My Big Fat Greek Wedding" must be a fucking masterwork by your example because it's one of the most profitable films ever. All the musicians and books that sell the most are then the highest quality? So "Titanic" is the greatest film of all time? Pretty much everything I like in all fields doesn't earn any money so they must all be shit huh? Who the fuck cares 'bout the numbers 'cept for the suits? According to your line of reasoning every product made should be geared toward teenage girls cause they're the one's who made "Titanic" the greatest film ever made?
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"box office = quality"??? Michael Bay, Charlie's Angels, and every Will Smith movie except Men in Black pretty much fucking disproves that little theory.
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.....I think 11 Academy awards (after 14 nominations; indubitably the most ever and since) and ....er....oh yeah, being the highest grossing movie of all time might help it make a very very strong argument to that end. On both fronts (critical reviews and Box Office draw) I believe it would be a bit ridiculous to underplay and confine the success of the movie simply to the tastes and spending power of just teenage girls. Whether or not you enjoyed it at a critical level, (seeing as that's down to personal taste, at the end of the day), it did succeed at doing what essentially every single movie sets out to do; i.e. earning rave and critical reviews (check), and making coin at the B.O. (check, check) and doing so to a more successful degree than any other movie in History and since. So yes, Cameron could easily and jusitfiably argue that he did infact and indeed make the "greatest", if not most successful movie of all time; evenif he had to have a little help from "teenage girls" to do that. As for the argument that, "Pretty much everything I like in all fields doesn't earn any money so they must all be shit huh?" ( which is simplistic reasoning at it's most glaring), one could similarly argue in reverse, that in your opinion, everything you don't like and which is otherwise widly successful, sales-wise, must really be crappy and that the masses out there who contribute to the monetary success must really be idiots, and not enlightened like yourself. A classic example of flawed elitist reasoning. Just like this Fantastic Four movie; which seems to be on its way to making quite a bit of money for its opening weekend and which will put all those erstwhile "expert" reviewers ( Harry and his numerous like-minded geek minions on this talkback), who had predicted box-office doom for this cinematic "disaster", in the precarious position of being proven glaringly wrong. Now I'm not putting FF4 in the same league as Titanic (quality-wise) or Spiderman, X-Men, Batman Begins or any other successful comic-book movie, but I watched a midnight show tonight,(which I always do to avoid the hordes in the earlier evening screenings) and the theatre was as packed as you can ever imagine. The movie clearly has its weaknesses, mostly to do with the storyline and the script, but at the same time it seems to me like they set out to make a "fun" movie and not a deep or brooding picture. And in terms of when they released it and how they chose to market it, it would seem they succeeded at what they set out to do, and probably enough so to sign off on a sequel. And that's where the value of the Box-Office comes into play, being that this is, at the end of the day, a business and that a successful showing at the box-office is the only thing can justify more sequels. So now it's all down to the prior naysayers to come out of the woodwork with the inevitable "just because it made a lot of money doesn't mean its a good movie" schitck and that "the masses wouldn't know a good or quality movie if it crept up their collective asses"; well you know what, the studios don't give a crap , and they are the ones that make the movies, not you.
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Oh I get to go up against you Kai...cool fucking beans. Studios didn't make "Clerks" did they? Studios had nothig to do with "Sex, Lies, Videotape" did they? I dig that people flock to blockbuster...saw "Titanic" myself, thought the last hour and the best actress of our time's tits were awesome. Who says I can't make a movie? "Primer" cost nothing, was interesting and will launch a career. I just happen to dig stuff that doesn't get marketed at me...so I'm an elitist. And your gonna throw in Academey Awayd nods to back you up...don't critcs and filmmakers and actors vote on those? The same critcs who hated FF? (and I won't dignify it by saying four...they RAN IN FEAR FROM THE FOURTH WHEN THEY SAW THEY WERE GONNA TANGLE WITH WoTW) Now when you say "most successful" of all time, I buy that. IF AS AN ARTIST ALL YOU DID WAS TO SET OUT AND MAKE MONEY!!! Fuck yeah I'm enlightened, just like you and even Lando are. I just don't like being force fed crap and having to say it's good.
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No movie was ever made without a script. Kai, you and I can sit down and write one. That's got nothing to do with studios. And c'mon, "Hulk" opened huge and dropped. Let's get the word of mouth out and see in a couple of weeks what FF truly does. And when is 20 mil dynamite? Figure another 20 on Sat., 10 or so on Sunday, so we've got 50. But let's see if it has legs (and speaking of legs, yes, as an elitist, I would rather see "Murderball" that FF, but I know I can go down to the Parkway Speakeasy (just to mention that here in Oakland Ca. we've got the Parkway that has couches, beer, wine, food and the Grand Lake Theater, a magnificent place to see a flick) on a Wednesday, and pay $5.00 for two tickets!!! You could also call me pretentious, arty, snobby, whatever the fuck you like Kai. I just wanna go at it with ya.
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Doctor Von Doom was a horrible character. Badly written and executed. His relationship with Sue was lame too. Alba was a bad casting choice but she didn't ruin the movie. Von Doom did. A good hero(s) needs a good villian and they got the worst since Billy Zane's Titanic idiocy. Iffy special effects can be overlooked if the story is great. Von Doom was the weakest link.
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Jul 10, 2005 3:28:35 AM CDT
"The quality of the work you put out will be rewarded by just co
by cod profundity
Do you really believe that bollocks? By your reasoning Nsync are better than Tom Waits. Linkin Park are better than Interpol.
Titanic is better than any film ever made. You fucking retard. -
Kai's pretty smart, I need help with him/her, not Justice. I mean, people buy NAME BRAND items when the generic have THE SAME INGREDIENTS!!! Marketing baby, that's all that shit comes down too. Some critic back in the day, and I forget their name, said that if you put the biggest chunk of gold in a museum and have people pay to see it, does that mean it's the most artistic thing out there? I've always dug that argument.
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Jul 10, 2005 3:42:30 AM CDT
Comic book- Doctor Doom called... he said he's going to kick
by pan demonium
I probably shouldn't post when I'm stoned... Pan out.
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....wow, looks like someone had just been itching to go at it with me. Fascinating; somewhat tragic and pitiful, but fascinating nonetheless. I never said that studios didn't make art-house or indie flicks or more specifically the ones that you pointed out. Sure they do. But each studio has the prerogative to make their movie however they deem fit and furthermore to target it to whatever demographic and audience they best feel will serve their shareholders/stakeholders prime interests. In this particular case, Fox and Marvel clearly where not interested in making a piece of cinematic history with pathos and deep-seated sweeping human emotion. No, they set out to make a fun, popcorn summer money-maker. I don't think anyone will argue against that fact. Not even the critics you claim were panning it. Otherwise they(the studios) might have hired Clint Eastwood to direct it, Haggis to Write the script and then released it in November or December instead of smack-dab in the middle of summer; but obviously they didn't. And whether or not it has "legs" ( yet another beautiful example of the goalpost-shifting; first it was the movie is crap, but then it turned out that it wasn't, or at least, not entirely; then it was that it would tank at the box-office- well from early returns it seems like that theory is also going the way of the toilet. I dread to think what it might mean if it happens to maintain a reasonable degree of success or healthy run at the B.O. over the next couple of weeks; but I digress), considering just how much of a slump the B.O. is in this year, is there really any other barometer by which studios now measure the success of their movies other than opening weekend numbers? Especially when they know they shall recoup all their profits from merchandising, DVD sales and rentals and product tie-ins. The "legs" argument can basically be applied to any movie post-Titanic era; which incedentally had a 25-week run atop the B.O., and everybody knows that those days are long gone, teenage girls or not. So I can comfortably assure you that whether or not FF4 suffers a heavy drop-off ( which I highly doubt) in subsequent weeks, this weekend will let the suits know all they need to with regards to greenlighting a sequel. And as for running from WOTW, on the fourth, I was bowled over laughing at that before I realized you were actually serious. Yes, of course, to move your movie away from the same weekend as a Tom Cruise-Steven Spielberg movie is definitely daft thinking, bad business decision-making and a clearly gutless move by a studio that is in it, after all to make money. Like I alluded to before, is there really any surprise that it's THEM who make the movies and not you? Any speaking of which, considering the word of mouth from WOTW, (as well as Cruise's Scientology antics in recent weeks) I'm eager to see how its "legs" will hold up not only this weekend but also in coming weeks as well. And them maybe after that we can compare notes to see how they hold up to with FF4's "legs. And what exactly was the point you were trying to make with regards to the Academy Awards? On the one hand you say that its the same critics on the Academy who hated FF4, but yet on the other hand you still seem to have some difficutly accepting that those same critics essentially bestowed upon Titanic the title (by default) of being the "greatest" movie of all time ( on the basis of number of oscars they awarded it, in addtion to the record-setting earnings it had at the box-Office). You can't have it both ways. Either those critics know their stuff in both cases or they are clueless, regardless of whether or not in one case they seemingly rewarded a box-office blockbuster and then panned another. My point about Titanic was that they succeed both where FF4 seems to be aiming for (Box Office success) and also where you seem to think that FF4 was a failure ( with the critics reviews) and not only that, but in both cases to a greater degree than any other movie in history. So why wouldn't James Cameron be justified in calling it the 'greatest' movie ever, based on statistics alone (monetary and critics awards)? If you don't like the fact that FF4 seems to be doing well despite the scathing reviews or despite the fact that you don't believe that 'the masses should reward such "mediocrity" with repeat business', then that's no reason to underplay the possibilty that maybe you're not in the prime demographic for whom movies are made and marketed to. You're essentially 'fringe' audience, and 'fringe' doesn't always equal 'elite', sophisticated, enlightened or even 'artsy' (as the Titanic's success might imply).
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Where you at, I'm about to get bake-oed and throw on Aqua Teen Hunger Force...guess since it doesn't get those huge ratings and I'm watching it means I'm elitist right. I consider myself more of a "cultist" and a "cool-hunter" (read "Pattern Recognition" if you don't know what that is) than an outright elitist...I think Shakespeare would be writing for "Desperate Housewives" today and all. So did you dig "Raymond"? That show must've had you creaming. Ratings sell ADVERTISING dollars...oh, and notice how FF has the most promtional tie-ins in film history? It's called LCD (no, not the band) LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR, and that's what studio heads market mass movies for. I say BB, WotW cuz no matter what Nolan and Spielbergo wouldn't be entirely compromised. I'll see FF for $2.50, drunk and high, cuz Story is a HACK! I just hope his career isn't ruined based on the shit this movie received critically cause we need more minority (and that includes female) directors. The white male dominant gaze through the camera has gone on long enough. Oh, and I dig subtitled films as well, pretentious fuck that I am. I guess "Crouching Tiger" is then the greatest foreign film of all time cuz it grossed the most here in the states. C'mon, I wanna debate (hopefully your fucking someone now so your head'll be clear to take me and C. Profund on).
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First off how is it "tragic and pitful" to want to debate someone who I kinda respect. I NEVER CLAIMED TO HAVE SEEN THE MOVIE and I HAVEN'T BASHED IT AT ALL!!! And yo, did they or did they not change the fucking title to FFour just to open it on the fourth? It was a good move to back away from WotW...but then why not change the marketing ploy, which is all this movie is, marketing. And as for this night, yes I am pitiful cuz my bar was slow, my fuckmate's outta town, and I'm trying to debate someone who equates awards and gross receipts with "quality". Yeah, I know it's a business, yeah, rah rah capitalism and all its glories, but I like to be shown something new and interesting ala "The Incredibles" (since you've seen it, does FF have anything as cool as Elastagirl saving the children, or Dash's run on water...moments that I go to big budget, mass marketed movies). I dunno, I just wanted FF to be, you know, Fantastic. Metacritic's highest score for it is a 75!!! A C+ as your highest grade!!! I'll see it, but at an indie theater and for $2.50 and spend the remaing $7.50 I would've spent at a chain on beer. That way, my critical faculties will be on par with the teenage demographic that this movie was obviously made for, so Fox and Marvel can have all the promotional tie-ins they crave.
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Jul 10, 2005 4:51:14 AM CDT
"Story is a HACK! I just hope his career isn't ruined based
by kai_mah'gra
.....sooooo, let me get this straight.... Tim Story is a HACK, but we still need more like him nonetheless, simply because he's a minority too??? Yep, that makes perfect sense to me too. And I'm the one who needs a clear head? Maybe I'll just wait for your reinforcements to come along, seeing as how much you seem to need them, and also assuming that he actually answers your constant beckons, that is. But just to give your noodle something to mull over while we wait, doesn't it strike you as somewhat ironic or even odd that you only seem to find what most people enjoy to be, oh I don't know......below you? Hasn't the thought or perhaps possibility occurred to you that maybe some of the things that the majority of people enjoy that you don't, just might might actually (and maybeeven unbelievably) be good (quality-wise), and that maybe your personal tastes and their tastes simply don't converge? And that that is not a reflection of the relative quality of the movie(s) nor is it a commentary on whether or not they or you are superior to one another? Just let that one simmer a bit before responding to it.
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Explain to me how 'Titanic' or 'Fantastic Four' is any less artistically-ambitious than "Aqua Teen Hunger Force" and you can keep that chip on your shoulder.
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You quote me when it's convenient and then make shit up when it suits your purpose. OK, but debate my point I made to Justice41 that box office equals quality. I'm glad you think "Titanic" is the dogs bollocks but go through all the top grossing movies and defend them all. So you must shop at the Gap right? Buy your clothes at Wal-Mart? Your a populist, I'm a hater. Oh and Academy Awards...please!!! "Raging Bull" doesn't win best picture over Ordinary Fucking Peolpe!!! Will "Titanic" win best film of it's decade in a critic's poll? C'mon, it's a popularity contest that has made some shitty fucking picks over the years. Scorsese's never won one but Costner has? I don't know, I just think that lining up film at 24 frames per second is an art form, editing is an art (watch Kubrick to see what an edit can do for a piece of work), writing is an art form. And, um, Alanis, there is no "somewhat" ironic (either is or isn't) and your statement contained no irony whatsoever? Now, you wanna debate whether Alanis was being ironic by having no actual irony in her song? I just want you to defend to statement that box office equals quality. And Kai, you a chick or not? Just curious.
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ribbons, my point was that I might be an elitist, but I can laugh as well. And in terms of "less artistically-ambitious"...do ya think AQTF had to get approval from all the tie-ins? I dig subcultures man, stuff that isn't the mainstream, cause it mostly happens to be that I like. Plus it's got music by Schooly D.
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Its advertising blitz kind of made sure of that. It became very annoying that on any channel I put the tv on and there was an F4 logo. The question is will the movie have legs especially when Wedding Crashers and Wonka are coming up fast. I doubt it will have very good legs simply because the first 1 hour and like 45 minutes of this movie has no action and no pull for a second viewing. Movies like this depend on people seeing it again, and I can't imagine someone going to see this more than once. They don't fight Doom till the last ten minutes of the movie. So the movie really is just a waste of time. 2 hours of set up for a second movie, they don't become the Fantastic Four till the very end. I saw it in a movie that was sort of packed and people were groaning and complaining after the movie even the kids who one who passed by me said "That was boring". So 60 million opening weekend probably but if the legs drop out it might find tiself with around 110 million which might be good in some respects but not what Fox is looking for.
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Look, the "tie-in, marketing" stuff has nothing to do with it. I'm sure that the people who like 'X2' don't like it because there's a tub of Baskin-Robbins in it. I think you and Kai both have strong points to your arguments, I'm just saying, stuff that is more or less of the same alleged consequence as the movies you're bashing (like Titanic, which is why I assume you're speaking out against it, right?) isn't simply good because it's "anti-mainstream."
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let's give the ATHF boys over a hundred mil...for the budget, resources they have it's about as "artistic" as it could be. I consider "South Park" to be art and they have lousy production values. I just prefer things with a "voice" behind them... I'm a big believer in the now unpopular auteur theory. Was anything in FF "new"? My favorite film moments in BB's were the hallucinatoy p.o.v shots we got of people buggin out to Scarecrow's gas. I dug WotW cause Spielbergo can do tension like nobody's business. I just like things I haven't seen before, original writing, something new, something fresh.
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First of all, "South Park" is generally a satire. "Aqua Teen" aspires to nothing but absurdity and surreality. You like it; that's a preference, that doesn't make it good. That doesn't even necessarily make it funny. As for the "auteur" thing... I wish I could link you to or still owned the issue of Entertainment Weekly where the interviewed the head honcho at Adult Swim, because he hates auteurs, and apparently most of the people affiliated with other programs on the network ghostwrite for different shows. I'm not saying FF's good; I haven't even seen it. I AM saying that the way you're choosing to define things as good or bad is, well, elitist. There's no standard to it besides for whether or not you like it. And I like auteurs too.
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Ok ladies and gentleman, let me break this shit down for you.
How on earth can quality be judged by popularity or success? Consider this; If something is planted in the ground in a favourable position, placed in direct sunlight and given lots of attention it becomes a "successful" tree or whatever. Now, it does not mean any seeds planted out of direct sunlight are worth any less. It means that when something recieves attention it becomes more successful. "Ah ha", I hear some people say "but it recieves more attention because it's worthy of it", well no thats just stupidity talking. Major Studio films that cost big bucks to make must recoup that outlay for the studios to keep going. So the studios use something called marketing (I'm sure you guys have heard of this) Marketing advertises the film to as many people as possible as many times as possible in a variety of ways e.g happy meal tie-ins, tv spots, trailers infront of other big films, the stars talking on E! and Letterman or whatever. The upshot is, lots and lots of people hear about the film and get told how good it is by Letterman or the stars or whoever. So you've automatically created an audience for that film. Most people don't care if a critic disses a film. They think "wow look at all the shiny shit in the trailer, I've got to see this" Bear in mind the general population don't have a clue about the language of film or what constitutes excellent dialogue. They go to the movies to be entertained. The executives want the film to appeal to as broad a demographic as possible so they look for films that don't have very complex ideas or serious subject matter. Because that sort of thing puts Joe Public off the film. Moving on a little, independent films, usually their entire budgets are smaller than a major studios marketing budget for a movie. So in simple terms they don't get so much attention or sunlight, to go back to my first analogy. Less people hear about the film so less people go to see it. A good case is Donnie Darko, released just after 9/11 and involving a plane crash, the studio buried the movie. Eventually it came out on dvd and word of mouth spread about how good it was. Now it's a cult classic in the same way Repo Man is or any number of films that had either no money for marketing or were marketed atrociously (e.g fight club).
Think about the music business. We all know Shania Twain isn't a better artist than Tom Waits but she has a massive record company promoting her. She gets writing teams to come up songs that have the broadest possible appeal, by diluting any originality this in turns mean the songs are bland. Anyone who thinks that box office succes equals quality need to look at how the film industry operates and what goes in to selling a movie. -
If you're going to respond to my last post, keep in mind that I did not say box office quality or popularity equals success.
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Jul 10, 2005 6:25:43 AM CDT
What I think this debate comes down to is Entertainment vs. Art
by cod profundity
Art clearly has more worth in a psychological or spiritual or evolutionary sense. And these things are better- for want of a more appropriate term- than just disengaing your brain and filling your head with worthless rubbish.
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ya wanna play quotes...so did FF set out to "earn rave and critical review" or only merely try to do the second half of your argument, "make coin at the BO"? Oh, and Titanic came out IN THE WINTER, so in many ways it's a freak in terms of BO receipts. I don't think I'm a target audience for many films (hmmm, let's nail that anarchist, agnostic, drug-taking, well read, geek/nerd, Vice magazine lovin, Village Voice reading, conspiracy loving crowd...that'll gross us billions!) but does that mean I can't love film and am not allowed to critique it? What I guess has been marketed to me are "Fight Club" (great adaptation), "Trainspotting" (great book), "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" (up till "Sin City" the most faithfull adaptation ever put to film...and while it's BO has essentually killed Gilliams career I guess I was the only one at the premier laughing).
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Have to agree with you there buddy. Just one thing though, Fight Club was sold terribly by the "suits" they tried to make it look like some sort of action thriller. It's pretty much an impossible film to boil down to a few clips or words. The PSA's on the dvd were originally going to be the trailers for that film. To me they would have made fucking excellent trailers. Oblique, darkly funny, insanely inventive, clever and subversive. Just like the film. But the marketing guys were just to damn pussy to do that. To quote the greatest comedian there ever was "Anybody in marketing or advertising, kill yourself, this is not a joke, borrow a rifle from an NRA buddy and kill yourself. This is not a joke theres no fucking punchline"
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"There's no standard to it besides whether you like it or not"...um, dude, how do YOU judge things. We all decide for ourselves if something is "good" or not and then we lay claims to back it up. What, is your superpower "OBJECTIVE BOY", I view things from all ways with none of my subjective feelings involved. And how the fuck is enjoying ATHF "elitist"? Yeah, all those New Yorker reading intellectual just eat that shit up huh? Who said I didn't like Titanic, I used it as an example and, once again, think the last hour and Winsletts tits made it worthwhile for me.
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You know what? I'm happy to say I have a better "taste" in films and music than 85% of people in the US or the UK.
I can prove that shit to you, if you really want. The majority of people really don't understand cinema or music as artforms. They think it's all about entertainment and escapism. Call me elitist if you want. It's not a fucking insult. -
cod, ya had me at "Anybody in marketing or advertising"...but greatest there ever was? Flame was too bright, he shined and left us but over Pryor (in prime), Murphy (c'mon Ed, one more standup), Carlin (up to roughly '86), Rock (stick with the standup), Izzard (for what it's worth I think he's the funniest man alive). Who's your number 2? And thanks for the support.
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You got to go with Pryor for number 2. He practically invented the word motherfucker. With Bill he personally reflects my entire outlook on the world so he is my number one. However, after that it's open season for my favourites. Pryor and Izzard then you have Peter Cook and yeh I love Carlin but I was living in the UK when he was at his peak so never had the pleasure of seeing much of him. Murphy has to be in there too. Have you heard of Peter Kay? He's an english comedian, and he's comedy gold but I think a bit too localised for Americans who haven't lived in Britain.
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Look: you come across as a nice guy, and I hope there are no hard feelings, but this is incredibly frustrating. First of all, your idea of "elitists" is a stereotype of what you consider to be snobs. When I say elitist I mean the closes thing you can come up with to explain why "Aqua Teen" is any better than 'Fantastic Four' is that it's not the mainstream. Do you see what I'm saying here? I don't pretend to like things if they're popular or well-received either (or vice versa), but you can't complain about how movies are like huge, impersonal hunks of gold on one hand and then talk about how you're gonna go get blazed and watch ATHF on the other. Maybe some people just want to go to the theater and watch some shiny shit while they drink a lot of soda, I don't know. I feel bad because I think I kind of know what Kai is trying to say about how people define "good" or "bad," but I tend to agree with you in thinking that the success of movies is more complicated than that (marketing, for example, and I was thinking of something else but now I seem to have forgotten it) and my tastes also sort of align with yours in that a lot of movies I consider interesting and at times even moving are completely overlooked by most people for one reason or another ('Fight Club,' for example, and not to sound like too much of an "elitist" myself, but 'Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,' which was funny and sad and weird -- even from a purely visceral standpoint -- and something that I recommend as an armchair critic). So believe me when I say I actually want to sympathize with you (although, as you could probably tell, I'm not that big on "Aqua Teen Hunger Force"). The thing is, and this is what I inferred the case was, you said something to the effect that Joe Public doesn't know what a good movie is. Well, what if you don't know what a good movie is? Ya know? I mean, you can recognize something that's unconventional, perhaps more personal, more sensitive to what kind of messages it's sending or even more technically-accomplished, and it's good at being all of those things, but not necessarily good at being or doing other things. To go back to the art motif that you brought up earlier, it's like the debates that follow controversial pieces like a pile of bricks or a black dot on a white canvas: it's only as correct as however you choose to define certain terms within art, and those are often defined by whatever that "art" means to the person viewing it, which means there's never a definite answer only a personal one. That said, my "personal one" is closer to yours in that a lot exploitative crap gets pushed to the top of the heap each week.
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Wright was brilliant but ultimately a one trick pony. Peter Cook was named funniest comedian ever over the pond, right? Would love to see any surviving footage of his standup...and who's Peter Kay? We seem to have eerily similiar tastes so I'll try to check him out somehow. And right on 'bout Bill's worldview...have you read "American Scream"? I would've have loved to have heard his take on the "war", and now I'm gonna smoke a cigarette to honor that clever bastard. Oh and Bruce, great social critic, jokes kinda fall flat now (but at the time he must've blown peopel away). Harpo has to get props cuz the fucker never made a sound and is responsible for some comedic gems. Woody Allen (in terms of writing).
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I NEVER NOT FUCKING ONCE DID I SAY AQHF is "better" than FF...I have repeatedly stated that I HAVEN'T SEEN FF SO I DON'T KNOW!!! All I said was give them a hundred mil and see what they do with it. I kinda dig the honcho over at Adult Swim because since those show are "surreal" they might do the old cut and paste on a script...ie. hand it from one writer to the next, each adding there own touch with no "story" behind it. Good call on eternal. Joe Public to me is just a statistic and "...statistics apply to anyone that isn't you" (anyone, sides Profund who most likely has, seen Ultraviolet, the BBC series...that's a misquote but still applies here) My wish, of course, is that Joe Pub would go see the stuff I like, so there can be more of it (like any good capitalistic system). I wish they'd vote like me (ie. not at all), propel my favorite authors to the best seller list, go see my favorite bands but what can I do? I guess I just disdain statistics (and BO is one) cause they really don't speak for anyone. This has been nice ribbons, no flaming, just good 'ol debate. I like Hulk as well.
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Hey, Ribbons I know you were talking to keepcool and I'm not just here to defend him (who would be that sad) I happen to agree with what he says and with alot of what you say. Talking about modern art for example, I can't remember the guys name but he put yellow umbrella's along a highway and recently did something similar in New York. Now that affected me on a personal level because it was a textured piece. Simply enough it made the ordinary extraordinary and was a sharp contrast with things around it. It was in that sense visceral and I'd think almost everyone who saw it liked it. However it also played with notions of space and architechture and how people respond to changes in enviroment. Now this is going to sound incredibly egotistical but I appreciated it on more levels than other people because I have a deeper knowledge and experience of art than the average person. I don't think I'm any better than them but I do feel as though they would benefit hugely from my knowledge about these things. Eesh that sounds terribly narcissitic but I am just being honest. I do appreciate music on a deeper level- in terms of construction, harmonics, technical skill and pure poetry- than the majority of the record buying public. Hence Nsync and Britney being number one artists and someone like Patrick Wolf barley breaking the 100. I don't think for a minute I am any cleverer than these people, just that I have a better education about such things. If people wanted look for it they would be able to tell what was good quality and what was bad. Hmm that's a bit of a messy way to put it, sorry.
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cod, is that a stoke at me or is my paranoia (Proverbs for Paranoids "Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you" T. Pynchon)kicking in at this ungodly hour?
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Too much hash me thinks. LOL. Don;t worry about it. I just meant it would be sad if I just went in to defend someone for the hell of it. I do it when I agree with them. Yeh Wright was a one trick pony but it was a hell of a trick. Peter Kay? check out his sitcome called Phoenix Nights if you can find it. Or his stand up Live at the Top of the Tower
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cool...tonight it's resin cause my dirty rotten s.o.b dealer is picking up tomorrow. That resin could explain some of my rants though.
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I agree, an education in any kind of art would probably give other people a different opinion on what they did or didn't like. And cool, thanks for keeping your cool. A friendly resolution to a debate is a pleasant surprise around here.
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Jul 10, 2005 7:48:08 AM CDT
I absolutely hate scoring weed when I'm in the US. Bloody He
by cod profundity
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well, my boy does deliver, it's $240 for an ounce, it's Humboldt, and while your dead-on 'bout our laws, Oakland cops aren't too hard on stoners...beats the shootings and carjackings they normally got to deal with. Cop friend's of mine are all for legalization, they know we're a pretty mellow bunch.
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Jul 10, 2005 8:04:59 AM CDT
Aaah, deliveries. I remember them so well. Now I always have to
by cod profundity
I haven't been back here long so haven't really scored. In the UK you're looking at about
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Jul 10, 2005 8:26:35 AM CDT
Haha, you guys went from talking about things of cultural and ar
by burlivesleftnut
Look you dumb fucks. No one in any 'entertainment' medium wants to make movies that NO ONE SEES. Or songs that no one wants to listen to. Maybe Crispin Glover, but he is a fucking weido and an exception. So regardless of the artistic merit behind them film, the film makers will always be hookers. If they aren't then their shit is usually boring or offensive to extreme. THEY ARE HOOKERS. Shut up.
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Do you not enjoy any form of stand up comedy? Do you not like Richard Pryor or Bill Hicks?
Those guys were pure man. No pandering to audiences. Just one guy on stage speaking about his life and truth. If you don't understand it then don't comment on it.********"No one in any 'entertainment' medium wants to make movies that NO ONE SEES."****** What's your point? That filmmakers will be hookers? That they should sell out for the big bucks? Hahaha you are ridiculous. -
Jul 10, 2005 8:46:16 AM CDT
Oh, and Burl. 3 bands that make music they want to make and don&
by cod profundity
Radiohead. Interpol. The Pixies.
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Campy is what I thought of when I saw F4 trailer and that is why I will not see it. The head of Marvel even said that the show will be a little campy in a video interview. But he used the word campy as if it was a good thing. Did they learn anything from the older BATMAN movies? This new Batman is amazing..... because it has belivabilty, the characters are real, not fake, and there is real emotion, not just action or movment from actors........ and the script was beat to death untill it was perfect. F4 looks as if they did not care just get the movie done. Marvel is so dumb... " hey I know lets dumb it down and make it Campy, thats what the people want" Take a lesson with Batman Begins Marvel.
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You think Interpol didn't SHIT their pants when Entertainment Weekly (or whatever their stupid music mag is) did a story on them? Haha, wait, I guess if they were just in it for the music, then why even bother to market themselves. Also, notice anything different between Interpol's last album and their current? Hmmm, seems a little MORE accessible. Not less. I wonder why? Let's not even get into Radiohead because their fucking lame and we know even if they are doing it THEIR way, its still being made to SELL. They are just selling a certain type of brand. And even if they are not making music to pander to anyone, they are STILL making music to sell. If its just for the music, then they should fucking give it away. Its all about the money, you pretentious fuck. And I have seen my fair share of stand up. All of it is boring, solipsistic bullshit. If I want to hear some small cranium jack ass whine about the world, I will go and hang out at the junior high you go to. And Pixies? Dude, way to out yourself. Haha. Just kidding... love those guys. Still gay though.
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Jul 10, 2005 10:30:34 AM CDT
"What's your point? That filmmakers will be hookers? That th
by burlivesleftnut
I think my point was clear. Improve your cognitive skills! They are all in it for the money. Same reason you go to whatever soul sucking job you go to each day. Hey I am not putting myself above you or filmmakers or musicians or even--shudder--comedians. But lets not pretend its anything other than a business. They are just more fortunate than you in that when they go to work its an expensive set with caterers and shit, and you go to that indie record store that smells like urine.
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1. Yes Interpol want to sell records but they don't compromise the integrity of the music to do so. Neither do Radiohead, the reason the music sells is because it is fucking excellent. Go listen to some Bill Hicks before you denounce it all as rubbish. And the Pixies are gay? How did you work that one out? Oh I see you couldn't think of a comback so just trotted out some pathetic attempt at humour (I guess you really don't wathc stand ups.) Theres nothing wrong with making music and hoping it sells. What's fucked is if you sacrifice the truth for the money. None of those bands have done that. Neither did Bill Hicks. Now I'll agree that with films a certain amount of compromise is made with regards to the business side. But the films I think are worthwhile and Art are the ones that do not compromise story or vision for the sake of popularity.
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I mean, I remember watching Down With Love, completely floored, thinking this has got to be the greatest comedy of all time. I don
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OK what about the Hip Hop store I suppose that smells of weed does it. I can stay here aslong as you want arguing my point....because I'm right. And just because you are in whatever you do for the money does not mean everyone is. Devendra Banhart makes a fucking pittance yet he still makes records. So does Geoffrey Lewis. So do TV on the Radio. RJD2 doesn't make much either. Or EL-P. Shane Meadows has lost money on all but one of his films. Pawel Pavelowski (if that's spelt right) didnt make a film about russian asylum seekers to make money. It's his living but that does not mean money is the only object, or even the most important. Grow Up you fool.
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Jul 10, 2005 10:49:49 AM CDT
To further illustrate the point, Radiohead-Kid A, the most inacc
by cod profundity
They were fucking demi gods they could have made OK Computer 2.0 if they wanted to make money. They made something for them, something experimental and alienating instead.
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Tricky , the man uses music to combat his depression to relate his inner monolgue to the rest of the world. To exorcise his demons. This is documented fact. He makes money but not lots and could have stayed with Massive Attack had he been more interested in money, as it was his views and ideas clashed with Robert Del Naja so he went solo.
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Jul 10, 2005 11:06:06 AM CDT
Graham Coxon, split from Blur because he was sick of the success
by cod profundity
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Aphex Twin, does anyone on the fucking planet believe this man is in it for the money????
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Jul 10, 2005 11:13:43 AM CDT
At the risk of getting flamed here I'd have to agreee with C
by tonywilson
People need to make a living, musicians are lucky they can do what they love and make money, but the best musicians won't compromise art for money.
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Jul 10, 2005 11:17:38 AM CDT
Man, this is fun. Burl, oh Burl? You thought of a comeback yet?
by cod profundity
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,1525056,00.html
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Seriously... we have the same taste in like EVERYTHING, although I'm sorry, but Radiohead is over rated shit. Oh and stand up (included your beloved Bill Hicks) sucks. The difference between you and me is that you hold these people in higher regard than I do. But you know what? Being the misanthropic dickhead that I am, I believe that everyone is looking to cash in. But I am not going to argue with you because I know how to settle this. If they are not in it for the money (Tricky, Radiohead, Interpol) then tell me why they all do one thing, please. Tell me why they all make videos. They certainly aren't to extend their art, right? Hopefully you're not going to tell me that! I think videos are proof that a band is not different than a hooker. Why else would they market themselves to MTV, VH-1, Fuse or random video bars all over the globe. And while your at it, lets not use people like Graham Coxon or Tricky as shining examples of not-being-whores, okay? You are talking about two people who came from really successful bands. In Coxon's case, he has made enough money to never do anything for the rest of his life. Lets see how well his artistic integrity holds up when he has to pay the fucking mortgage. And if you are going to name all these cool people who do it for the music, you might as well include Madonna, Tori Amos, and Alanis Morissette. You know because they have artistic integrity too. They just aren't *cool* like your list. Haha. And by the way, you're not "right". Naive for sure, but not right. And I'm sorry you didn't know the Pixies were alterna-gay darlings. Just because you weren't aware doesn't mean it's not true.
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But that isn't true... the BEST musicians manage to find a way to make money *from* their art. Honestly, if they are just in it for the music, then why would they ever venture out of their garage. No, they want money... they want fame. They WANT people to listen... otherwise what's the point? And Cod, I can also name 50 or 60 or a hundred bands or acts that are seemingly so under the radar that it seems they are artists and not whores, but if you are telling me they don't want to get paid for their work, then you are a loon. Every single one of them have agents, and publicists. You don't think Aphex Twins has a agent? Every record the guy produces lists his manager. Open that CD up and check it out.
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I'll tell you why they make videos my. To get the music accross in as many ways as possible. You can't reach a big audience nowadays without a video. And just because they want to reach a big audience does not mean they are doing it for money.
Oh and while 95% of music videos are shit 5% are real pieces of art. Hmm off the top of my head Rabbit In Your Headlights directed by Jonathan Glazer. Around the World directed by Michel Gondry. All is Full of Love by Chris Cunningham. Windowlicker by Cunningham also.
I don't include Madonna as someone who does it just for the music, she's a fame whore. Tori Amos I really fucking like she just wasnt to hand on my CD rack to mention. Alanis Morrisette hmm you may have got me I dont like her but that's personal*******
"Being the misanthropic dickhead that I am"***** Burl you just gave it up you think the worst of everyone. I like to have an openmind on these things. -
Jul 10, 2005 11:34:19 AM CDT
"They WANT people to listen... otherwise what's the point?"
by cod profundity
Exactly, we are now on the same page. They want to reach the biggest audience possible, but not to JUST make money. I've said in previous posts that of course they want to make a living from it. What my problem is people who sacrifice the music for the money. I don't know why we are arguing anymore we seem to agree.
Maybe. -
Yeah. They want to reach that big audience because, you know, they gotta get the word out. Its the music man. Videos were created for one purpose, Cod. To sell records. Hey, I am all for cool videos. Its great when art and commerce can exist together, but lets not pretend those videos are anything more than commercials. And to let you know misanthrope != close-minded. If I was really close minded do you think I would listen to the same music you do? And Madonna may be a fame whore, but she also has definite ideas about her music and she puts it out there regardless of whether the record will sell or not. So she is no different than Radiolame, imo. She's just not all uppity about it. Okay dude, I have to go and finish some shelves for my house. Don't confuse the oncoming silence from me with victory! This a nice debate though. Nice chatting with bright people.
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Jul 10, 2005 11:39:30 AM CDT
oh and what is more fun than arguing with someone you agree with
by burlivesleftnut
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Jul 10, 2005 11:43:14 AM CDT
"Yeah. They want to reach that big audience because, you know, t
by cod profundity
Yeh that is it. I'm not against making money with your music. But bands do want to get the word out and do want people to love the music.
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Glad we are on the same page then.
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And the more Cheesiest of all time. uups! Flamin' keyboard.
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Why can't any bands possibly be interested in something other than money? I know you hate Radiohead but they honestly but art before money. Sure they sell a lot but they want people to hear the music to enjoy it to find something in it. So many bands and artists want this. It's not unfair for them to charge for it as they do it full time. But It is not always about making money first.
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Let me know how all those FREE Radiohead concerts are. Or the free PIXIES concerts. You are being totally ridiculous!
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I just said that they have a right to charge for playing live and records, however they still put integrity in front of money.
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Jul 10, 2005 2:40:11 PM CDT
Dude, I don't care if they do it for money. That is your is
by burlivesleftnut
Integrity is just a myth you choose to believe.
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Jul 10, 2005 3:11:15 PM CDT
I hope this movie fails. Marvel is becoming to complacent in th
by craiggers
They had a couple of successes with Spider-man and X-men and now it seems like they don't give a shit anymore. They hire the director of Barbershop for godsakes and expect teh movie to be good? It's so obvious that the director of The Incredibles should've been tapped; i mean his movie just screamed "I could make an awesome FF movie!!!" But no they get Tim Story to fuck it up. You know it's bad when Warner of all people, who have always used their DC license to sell toys bottomline, have finally gotten their shit together to not only make the best Batman movie since Tim Burton's film but finally get the Superman franchise back off the ground after development hell that seemed to doom the project. If you've seen the weblogs, then you know that there is no worry - Superman is in good hands. You know a movie will be good when only snippets from a weblog makes you excited. You know that a movie will suck, such as FF did, when trailer upon trailer failed to even arouse curiousity. So FF was a FF - a Fucking Failure. Okay, I'm done with my rant.
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Just so's we're clear.
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Jul 10, 2005 3:37:23 PM CDT
d@mn i see th Haters are still at it, it's like the Dems. Th
by the founder
I'll be the ist to admit that F4 wasn't a good movie at all, it was just entertainig and I enjoyed it. However it was far from as bad as critics and harry and his loyal ilk that post here made it out to be. will this movie have legs to stand on? I doubt it, in fact I going to say it not only is Charlie and Crashers going to be 1 & 2, i think old Tom may slip in to the 3rd position. Then again the critics and all of the industry predicted that this film would flop, and i can see why they feel that way, but FOx just got lucky and dodged a bullet. It's over now haters of all things F4, the movie was a success for the 1st week at least, I'm sure FOX will make it's budget back and a lil something extra.
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Wow, I knew you were a misanthrope but...wow that's so sad you think that. Sad as in tragic not in the inuslting way. I mean most of the guys I mentioned would be making music signed to record labels or not. Integrity is something thats is intangible but I wouldn't call it myth. Bill Hicks had integrity. Radiohead have integrity (whether you like the music or not). We are never going to agree on this. But it's nice to talk to someone who has great taste no matter what quibbles we have.
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F4 sucked balls and people who don't admit that are either sheep or work at Fox. This 56 million (Less then what I believed it would make, I thought it would make around 63 mil) is all that matters in HW so its a hit not unless somehow it only makes 5 million next week. That is impossible because kids are fucking stupid and will see movies over and over again no matter how bad they are. So the kiddies might help but they won't get many return viewings from other groups. I don't know what other people are talking about because in the theater I saw the movie in there was a lot of booing at the end. So will see, if the idiots rise this movie will do well.
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Jul 10, 2005 4:16:06 PM CDT
Holy crap, Fantastic Four grossed $56 million in its opening wee
by assking
About $20 million better than I expected, but it will be lucky to gross $10 million next weekend since very few people are likely to recommend it to others. In the end the studio was smart to publicize the movie so much. They knew they had a stinker and had to minimize their losses with a huge opening weekend and they got it. I bet the DVD is fucking LOADED with features to get even fanboys who loathed the movie to buy it.
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Either admit that I am right or Tony Wilson gets it. Kidding.
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Seriously though TonyWilson was helping them move bodies out of the Kings Cross underground on friday so he has bigger balls than both of us (me at least).
Goatzinger, they were a small part of the list. We had Devendra Banhart and RJD2 and EL-P and I think I mentioned TV on the Radio there too. Those are hardly PC-safe. Er and how is Mickey Bay PC?. LOL. -
I made this and thought i'd share it with you, this seems to be the busiest TB, BTW the amount of money FF makes has nothing to do with quality, Any way heres the link, http://www.weddingcrashersmovie.com/crashthistrailer/index.htm?id=23000
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...because it's "fun." Hulk was an ambitious undertaking, but hardly fun. It'll top 150 million easy.
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this site could really use a music section...top of 2k5 so far, no order, M.I.A "Arular" (I know you Brits got it last year but we had to wait a year), LCD Soundsystem (disc 1 good put lining up all the old singles on disc 2 made the album/and yeah, electroclash might be dead but they put on a fucking great show) Sleater-Kinney "The Woods" (their shows for the last couple years have been moving into this classic rock sound), Edan "Beauty and the Beat" (Beck meets Wu-Tang), 4Tet "Madvillian Remixes" (better than the originals), Clap Your Hands and Say Yeah (I've only heard six songs off it but Over and Over is my song of the year so far), Annie "Anniemal" (yeah, flame me, but wait till the next one) Fannypack "See you Next Tuesday" (c'mon, anygroup pimping L'Trimm deserves some props...plus I'm really digging female voices nowadays) The Hold Steady "Separation Sunday" (Best bar band in the world), Perceptionists "Black Dialogue" (not quite what I hoped it'd be but Lif and Acro got skills and a cause)***************back to comedy, how 'bout David Cross..."fuck I hate our Freedom!"
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Albums in no particular order, The Knife-Deep Cuts, QOTSA-Lullabies to Paralyze, Mylo-Destroy Rock and Roll, Roots Manuva-Colossal Insight, Patrick Wolf-Wind In The Wires, Tom Vek-We Have Sound. It's a mix of brit and US because I've been living in both places this year.
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Jul 10, 2005 5:12:28 PM CDT
Plus most of what Keepcool had aswell. MIA is fucking awsome, I
by cod profundity
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kinda a down year for hip-hop so far...Common, Blueprint I haven't heard yet, guessing Kanye will be huge...hey cod, is all this hype 'bout Dungen true? And any feelings 'bout Shadow vs. Rj?
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Terrible.
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Well I don't know what hype you heard actually, he's not been making too progress over here. But it is pretty fuking good I got to tell ya*** http://www.subliminalsounds.se/DOK/dungen2.html**** for some samples. Shadow and RJ? Well I gotta tell ya, have you ever heard of AIM? Released one of my all time favourite albums back in 98 called Cold Water Music, if you have heard it then you'll follow me when I say the first time I heard Deadringer I thought this could be Warm Water Music. So I was never too into the RJ is just ripping Shadow deal. Although Chicken Bone Circuit could be a Shadow cut. I love RJD2, the first album is absolutely badass. Such a fucking journey. Anyway, Since We Last Spoke is nothing like Shadow it's not like anything except 80's power ballds,lol. What do you think about it? Also are you a ClouDdead/Anticon fan?
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"Latest superhero film earns $56 million, helps end 19-week slump" from MSNBC. I called it......on the talkback to Harry's review no less. I said it would top the opening weekend gross of Batman Begins: check! I said it would help end the Box Office slump; check check!! and best of all I said that no one outside geekdom would listen to what the Harry-types and his minions of geek naysayers nitpicky comicbook fanboys were saying and predicting about the movie. check check check!!! Now, of course, lets's turn the page and listen to the next round of bashing; oh yeah, that it doesn't have "legs" and will tank like a lead weight next week. It should be interesting. Just about as interesting as scrolling all the way to the top of this talkback and reading all the predictions of "Doom" for this movie's fortunes at the B.O.
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Jul 10, 2005 6:05:17 PM CDT
Cod Profundity, "What I think this debate comes down to is Enter
by immortal_fish
Yabbut, Hulk was one and FF was the other. Most of the folks catering to this site and all of the other folks running it have seen fit to blast each film. Funny thing is that Hulk was as commercially successful as it was critically unsuccessful -- and for all any of us knows, FF could turn out the same way. Meanwhile, Batman Begins was as artsy as Hulk and the X flicks were big on fun, despite the wholesale departures of each from the source material (some way more than others). But go ahead and try to convince the average patron of this site of the similarities of these four equally entertaining flicks.
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hell man, I live in Oakland, the home of Anticon! Jel, Themselves, Pedestrian, "Divine Dissappointment" by Alias is one of my faves of all time. But the label seems to be stuck in a rut now...it's like they carved out their own sound but are now just stuck in that sound...unpredictability had become preditctable type of double-bind. Thanks for the hook-up with Dungen, they've been interviewed by all the mags I read out here so I'm just curious. I don't really go into RJ "ripping" off Shadow either...but what was he a "deadringer" of? He was absolutely insane live too...no fucking headphones, 4 turntables, skillz! When you saw M.I.A. was Diplo DJing? (that lucky Philly fuck is fucking the hottest philly out there now!) Wanna laugh...her show in San Fran. was $12.00...in the ladies room my girl heard people were paying $75 to scalpers!!! Damn me going in early!!!
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Jul 10, 2005 6:29:17 PM CDT
Kai_Mah'gra, "I called it......on the talkback to Harry'
by immortal_fish
Congrats! A week ago, I had pit myself alongside your advesaries, but today I stand with you. Everything I had feared was only mostly wasted energy. It was an origin film based upon an array of comic retellings which made itself marketably accessible despite the negative hype. It's not what I wanted, yet I remain reluctantly pleased. And I'm so happy that you've been proven right!
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So while yes, FF did do great numbers (I think Fox played this one well..."we were expecting 35 mil...we'll be happy with a 100"...so now they can scream how happy they are with the numbers (and we all should be, finally a good weekend!) when this movie needed these type of numbers to be a success. And BB did 72 mil over 5 days so if anything BB has done just as well if not better so far. And don't take my silence to any response as anything...I gotta go put on my Anticon t and go to work!!!
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That all the naysayers claim the movie will BOMB, attaching box office to how bad the movie is. Then, when they look like dumb asses, all of a sudden, box office doesn't equal quality, and it will fall next week (shit, what doesn't). You talked a lot of shit. You were wrong. Shut the fuck up.
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What makes you think that they have to make $300 milllion for a sequel to be greenlighted. The movie cost far below $150 million to make (why $150m? because that was what Chris Columbus' projected budget for it was going to be when he was attached to direct it, and before it was rejected by the studios who asked that the budget be scaled back down), not freaking $300 million!! Man, you naysayers are really reaching aren't you? Has it per chance occurred to you that these days most movies make most of their profits from DVD sales, merchandising and product tie-ins. Good grief, $300 million to break even. Where'd you come up with that one? what a clown. Production costs for the movie where $87.5 Million (ref: http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2005/FFOUR.php) with an additional $20-30 million spent on post-production and marketing. So the movie has a budget in the region of $90-$110 million depending on what marketing percentages where used for the product tie-ins and product placements (obviously studios are not going to release exact figures for obvious reasons). Nice try though. $300 miliion!!! Puhleeeze!!!!
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Jul 10, 2005 6:44:07 PM CDT
oisin5199, "They didn't change Wolverine to fit the story"
by immortal_fish
"they changed it because they found a great actor to play it" (remember Dougray Scott was supposed to play him and backed out because of MI? Can't imagine that now, can we?)" Are you honestly expecting me to believe that actors were cast prior to establishing a plot around their COMIC SOURCE MATERIAL incorrect ages? No, Singer had a story he wanted to tell and he cast actors around it based upon their ages. Bong water is a useful tool not intended as a substitute for refreshing beverage. "Harvey Keitel? Come on. That's an interesting idea but one that would have never worked. Having Harvey Keitel running around with a bunch of people half his age would have looked ridiculous. He's far too old now anyway." Never read an X-Men book, have you? Logan was assumed to be around retirement age when he first went up against the Hulk. You know, that big green guy with the huge muscles. "I'm also not sure I agree with your Nightcrawler comments, especially since they're contradictory." You can't be serious. Comic Kurt is studying to be a man of the cloth. Movie Kurt hides in abandoned churches while mutilating his flesh to atone for what he thinks are sins. The facts are NO CLEARER than this. Yes, comic Kurt is a swashbuckler. He took up studying fencing in Excalibur's first series run (another 'funny book' that took place in England, headed up by that countries version of Captain America -- you know, the one that looks liek a flag only without a shield). "So his attitude about the carnival thing totally fit" Of course, because all carnies are swashbucklers. My alcoholic uncle was a carney, but I always thought he was an asshole incapable of swarshing a buckle. "Now I do agree that the scar tattoos were a deviation." Oho! This proves that cocaine does indeed offer brief moments of clarity. "But were still interesting." Make that short-lived moments of clarity. "Overall, I just wanted to say that if you go to see FF expecting YOUR FF than you'll be disappointed." Writing this reply to you was bittersweet. You made it all too easy to counter your points, but I have to yield to the fact that, like myself, you still manaed to rise above what you had been led to believe and found the FF flick to be a worthy waste of your time. Problem is that your ignorance isn't helping me.
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yes, the movie was indubitibly weak; but I could see Fox's reasoning in running their marketing campaign and targeting the teenie-bopper crowd, they definitely knew what they where doing. But if there's any advantage to be gleaned from a strong B.O. showing, it's that the sequel will possibly attract a bigger name to direct as well as coax Fox to release more funds for a stronger picture, story and screenplay, this time around especially knowing that they have something big on their hands; and maybe a longer production schedule too. And hopefully ala X-Men we end up with a better sequel to a relatively decent franchise opener. And like most fanboys, I like Alba and all, but you kind of find yourself hoping that she develops "Halle Berry" syndrome and thinks comic-book movies are below her so that Sue Storm's role can be re-cast to a more believable Sue Storm. Doom too. The others I can live with, even as I imagine right now that Chiklis and Evans would/should be their priorities to get signed on for a sequel.
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It was good. Not great, but still good. And FF is so very comparable to X1 in so many ways. X1 was a mash of horrible villains only elevated by the performance of McKellan (who was also not cast faithfully to the source material). Movie Sabretooth was a throwaway, which is a fucking shame. Toad, a throwaway to begin with, had abilities invented for him just for sake of movie plot (e.g. shaddup, Jean). And Mystique came into her own only in the second film, which is also a shame considering how her abilities forced her into being used as little more than plot device and her character from X1 was spread across two characters in X2, herself and Lady Deathstrike (thanks to yet another handy plot device). Even though Mystique had more to do in the sequel, she remained a plot device and was ultimately nothing like her 4-color counterpart who would sooner take opposition to Magneto than she would yield to every one of his whims and fancies. But that's all okay, because it was done by Singer, who sits at the right hand of Raimi. Sure, Singer made a good flick, but it wasn't anywhere near as faithful to the source material as was the FF. "And hopefully ala X-Men we end up with a better sequel to a relatively decent franchise opener." This is all any of us can wish for. Personally, I'm pissed that Ang Lee didn't develop Nolte into Sterns, turning him into the Leader by the third act of the movie. Doesn't mean that a good movie can't still be vindicated by a better sequel. I still have hope for Hulk. Considering how they developed Doom throughout FF, there's still hope here too. But the fanbase ain't going to help matters with their stubborn, misplaced hatred. Plainly stated, there is less to loathe about the FF movie than there is with the X-Men movies.
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....good points there. I wouldn't worry about FF fanbase and their misplaced hatred. As this weekend prove with its outing after all the bashing, the studios don't have to pander to what can logically be considered a fringe element of their viewing audience if they successfully capture the imagination of the wider non-comicbook faithful viewers. The changes from source material that fanboys were whining about in FF were, for the most part, necessary in transferring the story from medium to medium and not completely losing new viewers like they did with the Hitch-Hiker's Guide movie; lots of inside jokes, unexplaned plot details, that were all sadly completely lost on people who were unfamiliar with the source material, and people who incidentally also hold the power of word-of-mouth, repeat business and DVD purchases.
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Jul 10, 2005 7:41:50 PM CDT
I just realized -- no one has been bitching about the Thing ef
by immortal_fish
Doesn't anyone remember a big part of why you're hating? Hey, I was first in line to gripe. There is no high button nose, no elongation between upper lip and nose, no UNIBROW. Hell, I don't even think Chiklis has blue eyes. And we've all seen the link to the "How to draw the Thing" illustration by now. I went into this expecting to hate the rendition of what was one of my most favorite comic muscle men ever. Is he Ben? Yes, for the most part. In fact, the effects were better than I had grown to expect in the pre-hype. Still don't like the lack of unibrow. Johnny asking Ben where his ears are honestly made me cringe (Thing in comics does indeed have ears). Despite all this, damn I was impressed. The skin does not look like lumpy rubber. Every time he moves, you hear rocks grating. It's very subtle yet still there. When a pidgeon shits on him, you hear the scrape of slate as he wipes the mess off. When he confronts a truck driver before pulling him to safety, there is a wink in his chin that I hadn't expected and looked for (and found) in subsequent scenes. Sure, Ben having eyelashes was jarring and pulled me out of the film, yet the overall majority average of his special effects had me sold. I certainly want better if there is another flick. Regardless, Thing effects were not a showstopper here.
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Jul 10, 2005 8:05:14 PM CDT
Kai_Mah'gra, "The changes from source material that fanboys
by immortal_fish
For the sake of plot? Perhaps. Let's review. If you read above what I've posted about regarding the X-Men flicks, this is the same problem I've had with that franchise. Changes in character development for sake of plot development. Admittedly, this worked in X1. Magneto as a holocaust victim, Rogue as a runaway, Jean and Logan closer in years than with Scott. What was there? The anarchy angle (Magneto). The 'what happens to runaways' angle (Rogue), and the love triangle (Jean, Scott, Logan). All of these played part in the story that Singer wanted to tell. And let's admit, hopes aside, none of us was expecting a sequel. Contrast this now, to FF, where as you say that changes were necessary. I say, WHAT CHANGES?! I'm standing by my testimony that the FF film is an amalgam of FF origin stories. From movie perspective, this is how ultimate Doom ended up in Latveria. The time for bitching about how Doom is handled will be after the sequel, not now.
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If these bitches were so truly pissed about the deviance from established comic history, then they should be equally pissed about how REED DIDN't KNOW THAT THE COSMIC RAYS WERE GOING TO MUTATE THEM!!! Goddamn, he knew. He fucking knew. I have a copy of the fews issues where Reed actually has a shiner given to him by Ben. Why? Because Reed had planned the cosmic ray accident. There was no miscalculation by Doom prior to launch. Reed already knew that their biological makeup would be altered by the trip. After Ben beat the shit out of Reed, they needed to find replacement muscle. Why else do you suppose Jen Walters left the Avengers for a pad in the Baxter building? You know, the hot green chick. Lasted for about 3-years. It was all drawn by some ham and egger called Byrne, a nobody in comics.
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And CRAP WITH CAPITAL "C". 'NUFF SAID.
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Um, your history is kind of fucked. She-Hulk was asked to join the FF after Secret Wars. The reason? While the Thing was on the Secret Wars planet, he could actually turn back into Ben Grimm. He didn't want to give up this opportunity, so he chose to stay there. His time on the planet was chronicled in his own comic. His decision to leave had nothing to do with Reed. And if Reed did know about the mutations, it was a later addition to the comic, and not something that Lee or Kirby would have ever added.
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adamantly arguing about box office numbers in movies. Are we just that savvy when it comes to the business of movies? Or do we have nothing else to argue about in regards to the fantastic four movie? Damn if movies rarely make any money, what the hell is everyone doing trying to get into the business? We should all become investment bankers...those guys make money.
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Has any of you brain drains taken into consideration the Hurricane? Or don't any of you know about it. We just had a huge hurricane that affected Florida, Alabama and Georgia weather wise. That alone can put a crimp in BO.
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Jul 10, 2005 10:42:47 PM CDT
"And if Reed did know about the mutations, it was a later additi
by adambalm
I thought I remembered this from Claremont's FF vs. X-Men. Was that the first it appeared?
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It really was a FUN and funny movie. And what the fuck's wrong with that? It's about people with super powers. It wasn't trying to be anything more than it is (cough, cough -- Spider-Man 2, X-Men 2 -- cough, cough). The effects were top-notch for the most part, although Thing maybe looks a little weird sometimes, but what the fuck do I know what a REAL orange rocky man is supposed to look like. The theater was pretty full and everyone laughed at all the jokes, and, yes, there was enthusiastic applause at the end of the show. Is it going to win any Oscars? Hell, no. Would I rather watch this again than Mystic River or most any other piece of critically-approved drivel passing for art? Hell, yes. I'd compare this with something like Men in Black, a stupid fun movie with lots of jokes and decent action. And while Men in Black is not a great movie, for some reason I can watch that damn thing over and over again. I guess I'll find out if FF is the same way when I get the DVD. And, before I go, I just have to remind you all that TITANIC IS THE GREATEST MOVIE OF ALL TIME. Look at the box office. I'm not wrong. I'm right. So right.
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i was really worried about this film. but there really wasn't anything to be worried about. i enjoyed it. i took my sister who is getting married in three weeks and she said it was no where near as bad as the reviews made it out to be. this movie was made as a launchpad to hopefully launch a franchise. but when x-men came out everyone (including myself) loved it. i saw it three times in theaters in one week. But looking back the movie is kinda weak. and fantastic four is also weak. but it's not a bad movie. it's just not a batman begins or a spiderman 2. it's an two hour long origin story. doom isn't a huge villian. but the heroes aren't that great either until the very end of the movie. the thing costume looks great. i don't care what people say. i loved the way chiklis looked. it was twelve times better than the CG hulk. when he said that "wish i could be invisible" line you could see tears in his eyes and you can't get that from a freakin' CG cartoon. jessica alba wasn't a great invisible woman but i don't hate her as sue half as much as i hate halle berry as storm. and reed was pretty much the big dork (as the source called for) and johnny was the rebelious youth (as the source called for). he wasn't blonde, but who cares, evans was johnny. and by all means who really wanted to see victor as the dictator of a small imaginary country? that would have been freakin' retarded. if doom returns in a sequel as the ruler of latveria then this setup did that portion of his history justice and makes more sense than any thing else you could come up with. stop whinnin'. it was a good movie. not amazing. not even fantastic. but it was good. and if it would have come out, say four years ago, we'd all be pissing our pants and lining up to see the movie for a fourth or fifth time in theaters. you know that's true.
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FF Fans 1, Fat Geek Critics 0
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An' it's silly all the fucking time... Hell, Leo not even couldn't take one round fucking Kate Winslet in the car. Box office telling how the quality is of a film? That's more silly than the movie itself. Oscars? They are overrated. An oscar it
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Jul 11, 2005 12:04:13 AM CDT
"......... that it's sad to see it go unseen. Might as well
by kai_mah'gra
Go unseen? So I guess those nobodies who plunked $56 million on it at the Box-office were basically just making down-payments for the direct-to-video DVDs, huh? They weren't really at the Theatres and it was all just one big illuuuusion by Fox to fool everyone that people actually saw their movie. What a bunch of hogwash, by someone who still just can't get over the fact that the movie wasn't as bad as his Sugar daddy Harry said it would be. get over it buddy, the movie didn't tank; it did well, probably enough to spawn a bunch of sequels. I know it pains you greatly to realize that the movie did quite ok for its studio, but hey, look on the bright side, maybe one of those sequels will actually stay true to form and tank like it's "supposed" to and then Fox will hire you or Harry to make a more faithful adaptation that lay non-comicbook fans can actually enjoy. Or NOT.......
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Jul 11, 2005 1:51:27 AM CDT
"anyone else, talkbacker or otherwise, who has a negative view o
by ribbons
I don't know if this has anything to do with my post about *possible* biases at the beginning of this thread, but if it does, I'd appreciate it if it was translated into English so I could at least have a go at standing up for myself.
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I think a movie like this should have been $150 million so maybe it'll have a bigger budget in the sequel. I have the same problems with this flick that everyone else had. Cheesy dialogue, lame story, The Thing looks rubbery, crap special FX (next time get ILM or Sony) and Jessica Alba as Sue Storm is just stupid and makes no sense... Reed looks like her father in this one! She actually looks younger than Johnny Storm! The only cool thing now that can come from this movie is a new animated FF 4 series! That's all I was hoping for anyways!
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Just found this link! :o) http://www.sfcrowsnest.com/news/arc/2004/nz6285.php Still late 2006 is too long to wait! :o(
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.....you wouldn't be missed.......that's for sure
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Well it's official ) according to CNN); the FF have saved Hollywood with a better than expected 56 million at the BO, beating out second place finisher WOTW by more than 20 million. All the haters who were predicting BO failure? Wrong. All the haters precidting bad word of mouth? Also wrong. In fact, the opposite seems true. CNN ( & other industry watchdogs) are are now crediting FF with turning the tide on what has been a bad ( according to some) year for BO. After murders in London, ongoing horseshit in Iraq & all the other kark we're having to dog paddle through, it seems that folks just wanted to be entertained, & the FF delivered. Of course, the haters will shrug it off & sneer an ominous "just watch next weeks receipts fall"... But FF looks well on its way to 100 mill & sequel territory. Never underestimate the power of a film that says "we aren't going to force you to use your brain. Why not just have fun, for a change?" Why not indeed.
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Box Office &/or academy awards do not necessarily indicate whats "the greatest movie of all time". Titanic, which I did enjoy, is a fine film, but I'd rather watch Catch 22, Jaws, Bladerunner or any of the LOTRs films. The English Patient won Oscars, but Christ was it ever shit, validating HL Menckens notion that "no one has ever lost money underestimating the taste of the American public." Many of the movies now considered to be "Hollywood Classics" were utter bombs when they premiered ( It's a Wonderful Life, eg). Its a crazy game, juggling BO numbers, awards & public/personal taste to try to determine the (so-called) greatest film ever. Don't bother. All you do is start a pissing contest, & who wants that? Or maybe I shouldn't ask that question in this venue...
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you know what's fun...I took a course 'bout films of the 30's. The Prof said normally he'd do stuff he likes, but for this one semester he wanted to go over the highest grossing, most popular films of the decade. He prefaced most of the films by telling us not to laugh at films that, to our "modern" sensibility, had interminably dreary melodrama, over the top performances, cheesy effects...basically sentimental dribbletypoop. This isn't to say that looking at the highest grossing films of the 2000's 70 years from now will cause the same effect (hell, film most likely won't be around in it's current form with all the advances in the Virtual world) but I just think it's a good point.
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Okay, alla you goddamn putzes, you a know who a you are... you went anna seen the Fantastico Four movie. Alla you putzes who a said "I gonna buy a ticket to a the Batman movie..." Admit it... you a choked when a you got uppa to the box office anna your mommy said "one a for a the Fantastico Four please." You a shoulda said "no mommy, Batman! It's a the Batman!" but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, you choke. You putzes! Now go anna look at what's a gonna happen. Fox, she's a LAUGHING at a you. Avi Arad, he's a wiping his ass with alla the money he a make this a weekend, that's a how much a money he make. An now, we gonna get a more a the crappy kind of funny book a movies. Anna the Fox? They gonna really a screw us over onna the X-Men a 3. Anna then, my funny book collection of X-Men? She gonna be a worthless... and then Dino, he's a gonna be a the pissed. Anna he's gonna find out a where you live, anna he's gonna come anna gut you like a the Kong snake. Anna you call a yourselves geeks! You shoulda be ashamed a yourselves... You not a the geek. You not a even the fanboy. You a PUTZ! Bah!
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Hey Dino - sometimes people just want to have a good time at the cinema. You know, like they didn't at your King Kong? How you likea dem apples?
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Dino, I tell you I smile whenever I see your posts man. So, I saw it yesterday, and it's criminal how much fun I had. I guess I'll do my own lil mini review and keep it as short as possible. The script was barely, BARELY better than the Corman version and I had just downloaded the Corman version. The difference is that here the cast seems to save it somehow. But this is a movie that was going to rise or fall on its cast, and whether they had any chemistry or magic together. They do, although it's hard to tell at first, with the unspeakable dialogue coming out of their mouth when the movie first opens. When Reed and Ben are standing there outside the Von Doom building where they're erecting a huge metal statue (foreshadowing!). "Well, friend for life..." Ben says. "I suppose we should go inside the building in order to arrange our uneventful mission into space, that being how we found ourselves here outside Victor's insidious lair." "Yes." Reed replies, thrusting his index finger in the air. "For science!" "For science!" Ben replies. You know, something occurs to me while I'm watching Reed show Doom his powerpoint presentation, with Doom watching it clapping his hands like a three year old at a magic show. "That's my Reed, always 'stretching'(foreshadowing!)" "Don't tease me, queen." Reed
replies. It occurs to me that the movie proceeds like a collection of script beats. Show that Reed and Ben are friends. Show that they're going into space. Show that Doom knows Reed from school and hates Reed. Show that Doom has money and likes to give it to all away to his arch enemies. Then, matters aren't helped when Sue and Johnny step out from behind the curtain. Johnny jams on an air guitar, and screams "I wanna rock!" while Sue admires herself in a mirror listening to the sound the wind makes passing through her ears. You know, I'm not sure I'm remembering the movie entirely correctly now... Actually, I think Johnny is riding his motorcycle over an alligator pit at this point while making out with two supermodels, but I mentally put him in there because it makes more sense. Fuck, people hop around in space and time in this movie like
there's a DeLorean involved. There's Johnny riding his motorcycle. Suddenly here he is with them. Here's Ben with the gang in quarantine in Latveria.
Bam! He's in New York trying to score a piece with his wife. Or when Johnny sees extreme sports on tv and gets an idea. He grabs a Mountain Dew out of the fridge and BAM!, the righteous thirst quenching power instantly teleports him there. Either that, or bad
editing did, I can't remember. Plus, I don't think there's enough product placement in this movifhf!xsds. Sorry, it's hard to type with my fingers dripping
with juice from this delicious Burger King whopper, fire-broiled to perfection. Have it your way. Anyway, in the end this movie was like falling in love with a hooker. Everyone tells you she's a hooker and just wants your money on the night table every morning after, and you agree with everything they said, yet...you love her. Coming out of this movie, I'm haunted by the words of Ebert when he reviewed Daredevil. "Better than we expect. More fun than we deserve." -
I don't know how many of the reviewers of this film actually remember the early issues of the Fantastic Four. This may be blasphamy but the first three issues are really pretty bad, with rambling plots, unlikely dialogue and a Thing that really does look like a monsterous turd. Even issue five that introduces Doctor Doom is all over the place. In his first appearance, Doom is not a Latverian Gypsy and his castle is located in upstate New York. His main weapon is a gun he wears on his belt. Kids were unimpressed. They thought that Doom was a robot walking around in a cape and hood. Doom didn't really become cool until FF Annual #2. So, if this movie is good, not great, it falls in line with it's source material. ........Now, one big problem with Batman Begins is that it starts out to be "realistic" but then, when push comes to shove they break down and throw in microwave rays, giant impractical monorail crashes, and a villain who thinks destroying evil cities does any good. If you'd just made a movie about Batman and the Scarecrow, you could have kept it grounded in Frank Miller territory and the fanboys would have been validated. As it is, the movie fails because it half-heartedly goes Hollywood and because it's grim and serious, but hardly any fun to watch. At least Fantastic Four is true to it's genre and style.
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...and that's actually okay with me. I went and saw this movie with my nephew (age 6) over the weekend, and tried to put all the griping I'd read in these talkbacks out of my head. That wasn't easy. Every time Doom was on screen, my inner geek cried about his being a corporate re-imagining. And my adult fan of McMahon's work in Nip/Tuck was screaming at him to stop trying to be funny while being evil. Doom isn't supposed to be funny (that was the inner geek again), and McMahon has the ability to do complexly motivated evil pretty straight up (the adult FX fan talking, again). But as these two parts of my critical brain were trying to out-bitch each other and ruin the movie for me, the uncle in me noticed something: my nephew was loving this movie. Unconditionally. He asked me a few times if that was "really how it happened" because his dad, a die-hard comic fan, had explained to him enough times while watching various marvel cartoons that things in the comic-to-film/TV world aren't always as they seem. And as I was trying to think of a quick and quiet way to explain the differences between the characters in this movie and the ones from the comics, I realized that, aside from Doom, they weren't significant differences at all. So I relaxed on my Doom issues and lightened up a bit and it turns out there really was a lot to love about the movie. Chiklis nailed Ben Grimm. Just nailed the character. My opinon of the looks of the suit is well documented in this and other talkbacks, so I'll let that rest. He was Ben Grimm. Evans' Torch was slightly annoying, but even my inner geek always found the Human Torch somewhat annoying in the comics and in almost exactly the same ways. Again, a pretty much dead-on performance. And his chemistry with Chiklis worked for me. It was very reminiscent of some of the better light-hearted moments from the books. Alba was perfectly fine for the role of Sue Storm as written. I am more convinced now than ever that any gripes about her "performance" are really just ethno-centric bullshit. Her character was about as interesting as Sue's character in 85% of the comics up through 1995 (didn't read them after that, so if she became some stand-out in recent years, I missed it) and she was hot as hell to boot. Whatever honked off so many people about her after they saw the film, I need it explained better if I'm going to acknowledge the validity of that gripe. Gruffudd's Reed was similar. He played it about as well as it was written and it was written to be about as interesting as Mr. Fantastic was in 75% of those old comic stories. He was always distracted and distant and oblivious to the fact that his family (including Ben) needed his direct emotional attention. This is why Sue felt ignored and often angry (anyone remember when she went all dominatrix and adopted the Malice persona? Tell me you couldn't see Alb's Sue doing that). I thought that dynamic was pretty well conveyed, given the limited run time of the movie (personally, I'll be curious to see what ended up on the cutting room floor). Sure, the love triangle plot device was a little contrived and, in my opinion, unnecessary, but it didn't detract from what was, otherwise, an entertaining superhero movie and one of Marvel's better comic adaptations to date. For comparison's sake, I'd put this one on a par with X-Men, the Director's Cut of Daredevil, and The Hulk. It's not quite as good as X2 or Spider Man 2, but it's worlds better than Elektra or The Punisher. The only Marvel film I'd put in the "it's just a plain good movie" category so far is Spider Man, which belongs up there with the original Superman and, now, Batman Begins as a movie that transcends the genre. If you were looking for that in FF, you're going to be disappointed. But if you were looking for a comic book film that could bridge the geek gap and actually let you enjoy some of your favorite characters on equal footing with a youngster who hasn't read 30+ years worth of back story, then this was all that and more.
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was the ensemble nature of the cast. They had to feel like they knew eachother, that they had these relationships for years before we were introduced to them. You can make the script better on the next movie, you can give it more money or a more visionary director, but you're stuck with these actors and characters unless you recast everyone. And even then, you're not that they'll have magic together. To me, they did. It felt a little like watching Star Trek Four, in that way. The interplay, the relationships were the star of the show, no matter what the plot was about. Alba, even McMahon all made were believable in their little nitches that they had in this circle of friends. The only one that didn't work for me was Washington. I couldn't tell if Alicia was blind or retarded. But I think most of her stuff, from the sounds of it, fell on the cutting room floor.
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Jul 11, 2005 10:16:08 AM CDT
The Corman version is worse, but not by as much as I thought it
by drath
The Corman version is awful. It
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Sorry, hate to burst you fanboys' bubble, but the FF movie was pretty damn good - I thought it was better than War Of The Worlds, quite frankly. Sure, it wasn't the knock-yer-ass-outta-yer-socks movie we might all have been hoping for, but I was quite happy with it. The characters were who they were supposed to be (but I still thought Chris Evans should have been blond). The only weakness I found was that I felt there should have been a bigger build-up for them to be "heros" - just the bit on the bridge just wasn't enough for me - and there should have been more terror or destruction to NY in order to inspire the public reaction that they got.
Of course, I'm also one of the few (the proud) that also liked Daredevil - so screw you all.
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Jul 11, 2005 10:23:31 AM CDT
you guys should be begging for cameron to do THE AUTHORITY!!!!
by dennismm
[... pick up this series(forget the first 12 issues, and jump straight to issue 13 and up;] So, we should skip all the introductory material, miss out on the gang stopping the blue from turning the earth into a rape camp? Avoid Jenny Sparks saving the world from God and go straight to the Millar issues, which are basically about Apollo and Midnighter being a gay couple? [Oh, and by the way, there's a gay couple too in the team - coincidentally, they are the only two members who wear spandex.)] No, Apollo wears spandex; The Midnighter wears leather. They are the only team members who wear traditional hero gear because they are, respectively, Superman and Batman gone way over the top. Go read some "Stormwatch" and ground your references, son. (I write "son" as a middle-aged man who, by your writing style, intuits your age as 16-25 -- if not, sorry, but you might want to polish your prose a bit to give your posts a bit more weight.)
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Wow! Took my son to see F4. He was SO excited (he's 11). For me, the coolest part of the whole movie was the "King Kong" trailer! I just talked to another friend of mine who went yesterday. He said whenever Johnny "flamed on" or there was another loud noise, it WOKE HIM UP!!!! Geez, after seeing what they did with "Batman Begins" I guess we expect a little more from a comic book movie. There's 2 hours of my life I'll never get back.......
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Former English major and newspaper writer (long lapsed, admittely) here. Let's work on subject/verb agreement, shall we. Examples: 1. [Neither "conduction" nor "convection" are in the Bible]; neither and either are groupings, not multiples -- ergo, neither/either is. [...none of them make a lick of sense.] Again, none is a group, not a multiple; none "makes" a lick of sense. Here endeth the lesson.
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Why is everyone who dislikes something a "hater"? I didn't like "Hulk." Does that make me a "Hulk-hater"? I merely wished to see a better movie made in a different style. If I'm a hater, than those who run me down are haters for hating me. The mind reels.
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Jul 11, 2005 11:10:49 AM CDT
"but I still thought Chris Evans should have been blond"
by maguasynfield
Dude, they used up all the blond dye on Jessica. What, you want they should blow the budget or sumptin? Could have used a little more grey dye on Reed Richards - you could barely see it. Hopefully they'll get some one else to do the hair stuff on the sequel.
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I think the majority of " haters" on this talkback are being called this because they cleansed their colon with this film without seeing it. If you saw it & hated it, well, then it's all a matter of taste, sobriety or whatever & is fair game for discussion. I'm guessing that hating something in advance, sans viewing, makes one a hater, & there was plenty of that to go around. Expressing misgivings is one thing, & a natural state of affairs; unloading on a film without giving it the courtesy of a viewing is another, & is therefore one of the most widely indulged pasttimes on this web site. Pick a talkback, ANY talkback & you'll see it.
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MaguaSynfeild: You're not going to get another, better movie. The Hulk is what it is. 90 percent of remakes suck, so give up already. By Haters, I mean the same three guys who lead off every board on this site with "This Will Suck", "I'm not spending my Money on this Crap" and "____________ is the worst ___________ in the business. "
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Sure we can. Since there WILL be a sequel, the chance exists for a better film. A director who can handle action better; a script that plays up to an older audience instead of down to a younger demographic; improved interaction between the FF members; hopefully better SFX, although I've seen worse; better soundtrack ( PLEASE). We seem to be in agreement on what constitutes a "hater", so I'm not sure why you're having a go at me. I was entertained by the FF movie, not flossing my ass with it....
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I came away from Fantastic Four feeling about the same way I did with X-Men. It was an inconsequential piece of fluff of a movie, but enjoyable at the same time. And the potential exists for it to get better (as X-Men did with X2). While I liked the movie, my main problem with it was that it felt small. It also felt as if nothing was really at stake. Now that the characters have been introduced, something a little more epic in scale might be in order for FF2. It doesn't have to be Lord of the Rings, but the Four have always been about saving the planet, not a city. Here's hoping with the success of FF they'll bring in a better director, up the budget and hire a better screenwriter. Fluff was fine for the first go around. But I'll be expecting more out of a sequel.
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Yup. Dead on. Perhaps Galacticus (sp?) will show in the sequel, which would help ramp up the stakes.
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Alla you guys should a listen to a the DennisMM. He can teach a you guys a thing or two about a the english language, even iffa he does like a the Jessica Tandy instead a the Jessica Biel. As it is, I canna barely read alla your posts, your grammar, she's a so bad!
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I'm not really attracted to Jessica Tandy, Dino, especially because she's been dead for nearly 11 years. She was an attractive woman through middle age. Jessica Biel I don't get, like I don't get Alba. Now, Kyra Sedgwick, she turns 40 in August, she's hot! She's just one degree from Kevin Bacon -- how deep is that degree, I wonder? Holy moly!
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So that's a why she hasn't come outta the guest cabana inna my villa on Santorini... I thought she was a just takin' a the long nap. Holy crappa what am I gonna tell a Hume Cronyn?? Wait, you mean a to tell me he a dead too??!! Sonofa...
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At first, your schtick was annoying and tiresome. But, much like a Saturday Night Live skit, it has become quite hilarious through sheer repetition. Now pace yourself, dude. If you play your cards right, you just might supplant Chicken George as the resident "who-the-fuck-is-this-guy?" guy. Keep it up.
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I no use a the schtick! This is a the real thing, Baby! C'mon, where's a the love? Dino, he make a the movies that a the geeks love, because a Dino, he love a the geeks. Holy crappa, The Darkness Army alone should a give a me the bragging rights for a the lifetime! But I make a the Kong, the Conan, the Flash Gordon, the Stephen King stuff, the Hannibal Lecter stuff... anna by the way, that Brent Ratner, he might a not be a so bad... nah, he's a the putz too.
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Dino, will you a make me a pizza pie, a piled high?
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World renowned franchise doomer and all around shithead Avi Arad has said that the box office "success" of this weekend means that there will be a sequel. The balls on this guy huh? Hes spitting right in our faces. He talks about this movie as if its an ATM there to just dispense the dough. I hate this motherfucker soooo much. Hes taking all the characters and heros weve loved and grown up with and is raping them up the asshole to line his fuckin pockets. You wanna make money Avi? Fine, great but how about putting some time and effort into these projects and a little bit of love and respect while your at it dick. FUCK YOU COCKSUCKER.
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I bet Avi's gonna get alot of shit at San Diego. I can see him at the FF Q&A panel. Fan: "Fuck you. You raped my childhood and I want to kill your mother. Die asshole." Avi: "Iz zare a qveshtion?" Fan: "Yeah. How's Iron Man coming? Have you shortlisted any directors yet?"
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Because it moves feelings out of that tragedy. That's bucause it
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Jul 11, 2005 2:24:48 PM CDT
If you say F4 is "fun" and blah blah blah you have to go see Ste
by spectrebeeyatch
Double standard idiots. I don't care if F4 is light hearted and popcorn giggles, I didn't want that. I'm not a hater because I actually was looking forward to the movie and ignored all the bad press. But guess what I got kicked in the nuts by Avi Arad and Tim Story who is the worst director next to Bret Ratner. Doom sucks, actually everything sucked except for the ending which I thought was cool. But like one minute of good does not replace 1 hour and 59 minutes of horrible. So all you guys claiming its so "cute" and "fun". If any of you bash Stealth or the Cave your a dumb ass because those are "fun" and "Poppcorn films" too and they'll be better than this one.
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My kids liked it a lot. I'm a Marvel fan for 25 years and have read the FF for nearly that long. While the movie wasn't epic in scope as I had hoped, it was still a lot of fun seeing the characters come to at least semi-life on the screen. Maybe they'll nail the sequel!
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Jul 11, 2005 2:58:42 PM CDT
okay, I must be a retard... I am kind of looking forward to Stea
by burlivesleftnut
Is anyone else willing to admit this? Also spectre, I don't think people really have an issue with admitting a fun movie is just fun. People openly heap love on Long Kiss Goodnight on this sight. Its just fun. I can understand people not liking FF, it was not perfect by any stretch, but why such extremism about it? You guys are fucking nuts.
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Jul 11, 2005 3:22:29 PM CDT
And look at Battlefield Earth...called the worst movie of all ti
by cookylamoo
Actually, it had kind of a fun premise. What if a conquered Earth was considered such a backwater shithole that it was assigned to two junior level idiots. And what if that jerkwater planet rebelled and destroyed homeworld. Was it the greatest movie ever. No! But it was still more fun than The English Patient.
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...that was more fun than "The English Patient." That movie was so fucked up, it had the girl I went to it with talking about how she'd stick with me even if my face got burned off. Guess how fast she got dumped? Seriously... you know it's time to get out when the girl starts talking about how much she'd love you with your face burned off. As for Spectre's "if, then..." argument, I've got to take issue. I like a particular ratio of nuts to corn in my shit, and the hue has to be a pretty specific brown/green. That's not saying FF is shit (because, really, it's not). I'm just pointing out that not even all shit is created equally.
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Jul 11, 2005 4:07:18 PM CDT
FF, Music, ... Battlefield Earth, ... Harry, ... And More!
by deathstalker
MaguaSynfield,
You hit on the other aspect of the movie that disappointed me (aside from the additional hair issues ;c) -- the music.
What music?
Cripes, I can't even remember ANY of the music.
What is it with superhero movies lately that they have LAME ASS music? Even from great composers? Where is the THEME music? X-Men had none, Spider-Man had none, Daredevil had none, Punisher had none, and now FF has none.
Look at the themes from the past - will we never have another Superman or Star Wars theme? Hell, even the cartoon superhero shows had catchier, more memorable themes than the movies.
As for Battlefield Earth that was recently mentioned, the book was great, the movie sucked.
I'm telling ya people, it's all in the writing - and most of the writers these days basically suck. Of course, at least THEY'RE getting paid - hell, I guess I'd be happy to write crap if I got paid to do it .... but then, I wouldn't put my name on it.
And hey, speaking of getting paid for things, whatever happened to that film that Harry was supposed to be producing? The one where he was going to show how great he is and that he wasn't going to let any mistakes happen on? Anyone heard *anything* about it recently???
According to IMDB, Moriarty's got the co-writing credit for Mortal Kombat 3 - here's hoping he gets it RIGHT. If it ain't, I think his commenting gig here should be up (as should Harry's, if his great project is crap!)
--- Death has spoken
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In my experience, only a few gits are calling "Battlefield Earth" the worst movie of all time. It's been trashed because it was based on a *horrible* book probably not written by Hubbard (many believe the last 15 years or so of his life were nonproductive and possibly mentally challenged) but by a Scientology lackey. The book is filled with Scientology propaganda, not unlike Ayn Rand's books shoving objectivism down readers' throats. Also, "Battlefield Earth" had horrible production values in spite of the money spent on the film -- $73 million in 2000, with only one "big name" star, who probably worked cheap to promote Scientology. Then there are the sixth fingers of the aliens: Sometimes they move, sometimes they are stiff; sometimes they are absent! "Battlefield Earth," while not the worst film I've ever seen, made me want my money and, more importantly, my time back.
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But only because it's got Daniel Dae-Kim in it, and I think that horror movies get some leeway in the stupidity department. As for you "wanting to like this movie," spectrebeeyatch, ummm, I've seen you trashing it and anybody looking forward to it for at least a week now. As a matter of fact you wrote an almost identical post to the one I'm now responding to on Harry's review article. But "popcorn" movie isn't really a defense, I agree. 'Spider-Man 2' could also be considered a popcorn movie and you didn't hear anyone involved referring to it as such, because they knew they had something good on their hands. When Avi and Tim Story start calling the 'Fantastic Four' a popcorn movie, which they have, that's like recognizing its flaws as a movie. It's almost as if they're saying "stop asking about whether or not it's good; it doesn't aspire to be." Or maybe not, but that's the vibe I get. Although I'm not exactly sure what you're expecting out of a Fantastic Four movie: family learns to coexist besides literal and figurative differences; seems to be there in the movie you watched. As for "light-hearted and popcorn giggles," I'm pretty sure that's a stream-of-consciousness rant, but I think I kind of know what you're saying, and I don't know how many FF fans expected a "dark" (the word that gives fanboys boners) adaptation. Hell, half of them wanted it to be retro.
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With 'X-Men' they had a much smaller budget at the time and the possibilities with special effects weren't as great as they are today, just to name two reasons why Singer really wasn't that satisfied with the way it turned out. That changed with the second one in which he could realize much more of his ideas.
This whole talk about the FF being a Popcorn movie is so annoying,I mean what were "The Incredibles" or "Spider-Man" ?
If Arad starts thinking in these simple categories then we are going to get lots more of 'Batman and Robin' type movies as long as they make enough money.
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Firstly, thanks for giving me another countless reason to completely avoid playing nice here. Especially when addressing someone named after a piece of another person's sexual organs. Fuck you too, pal. Despite that, I'm man enough to admit that I think I'm rawng here. Haven't looked into it and don't really care to, but visions of the black wife beater jumpsuit with the yellow/orange belt springs to mind. I have those some 40 or so issues of the short-lived Thing series. Despite this, am I not still right about what Reed knew? I encourage you to point out such obvious weaknesses in any other post I've logged here, if you have the balls. And to the TB who mentioned that Kirby wouldn't have wanted it to end up that way, listen up -- try to keep a popular comic series popular for what was then a 25+ year run. It was a new and entertaining twist that fell within the confines of established canon. And why did I mention it in the first place? Because Doom DID NOT screw up any calculations resulting in the FF being pelted with cosmic rays! You people are all flustered about "disrespecting the source material" yet this major beat continues to elude you. Just like how Singer's X-Men unfaithful adaptations continue to elude you as faithful. Each were decent adaptations, only
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Damn. I hate it when I allow you people to eat my damn lunch.
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I said your history was fucked. Not you. Really wasn't attacked person. Now calling you a sensitive bitch with pigtails might be an attack. I was just correcting your continuity. What else is a geek supposed to do?!? And I don't know if Reed knew. When I stopped reading comics in 1987, he didn't know. My only thought is that I personally can't see the character wanting that for the people he cared about... but whatever. Gwen Stacy had babies for fuck sake.
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Jul 11, 2005 7:32:25 PM CDT
Childe Roland, "the uncle in me noticed something: my nephew was
by immortal_fish
Ah. My arch nemesis. We meet again. I don't like you. And I know you don't like me. Neither of us cares, of course, but I want to commend you for standing ground, not only here but on the Thing effects. I had stayed away from those topics because I was on the negative side (and didn't feel comfortable being there). Everything I'd seen up until that point was horrible prior to seeing it in motion during the film. And you've been proven correct. They really got it. The teeth, the cheeks, everything. I go on in further detail upward in the list of posts, so I won't wax on here. The reason why I write this is to share my own similar experience. Again, I had long since gone negative on this flick for many reasons already documented on this site. My 7-year old daughter asked (more like demanded) that we go see 'the Incredibles made with real people'. There's something about the knack those people have, who've lived mere single digit lifespans, that can make your heart melt almost on demand. She was genuinely excited. A young girl (GIRL! -- as in, uncommon comic demographic) jazzed to see a movie based upon a comic run of over 20 years I'd collected, of which I'd had no interest seeing. Yeah, there were weak spots, unnececcary fluff, absense of score, and seemingly departures from source. But can't deny that it provided quality time while not being the disappointment I'd been led to believe it was going to be. Cheers, Childe. Now where's Ribbon's review?
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Jul 11, 2005 7:47:11 PM CDT
BurlIvesLeftNut, "What else is a geek supposed to do?!?"
by immortal_fish
You're right. Sorry I've grown jaded. What else can you expect from someone having grown accustomed to this sack of rabid weasels known as TB. Still gave you your props, despite the backhand, which I'm surprised you haven't yet grown accustomed to as a veteran here. Wait, that's right, no one admits being rawng in a TB. My bad again. Back to point, Reed did indeed know. I can dig up the ish number if you must know. What alarms me is how no one else has already posted the evidence, considering how steeped this place is in geekness. Which only drives home my point -- considering all the bitching about departure from source material, NO ONE KNOWS the true source material, so how can the moviebe judged on it?
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Jul 11, 2005 8:06:14 PM CDT
You know, having rewatched SPIDER-MAN 2 this month on HBO a few
by triumph poops!
Seriously, for all the talk of Spider-man 2 being SUCH a high water benchmark for superhero films and whatnot, the film is actually pretty boring for the most part. The first half seriously drags big time and you have some really bad side issues like Kirsten Dunst showing yet again how miscast she was, particularly since she spends most of the movie looking plain and rather unpretty (unlike MJ in the comics who's a total bombshell no matter what the situation). Sure, Tobey was still good...Alfred Molina made a good Doc Ock...but all in all, what's the big deal? I think diehard COMIC fans jump on it simply because it took the material so seriously. So that as if by extenstion that same "seriousness" gives some kind of validation to their beloved comic geekdom (which they didn't outgrow in becoming adults), so basically they embrace the movie because they WANT some sort of "serious" validation. So they can stop feeling like the nerds they are at heart. I mean, that may sound like a slam, but it's not meant to be. Hey, to each his own. Some kids grow up to be adults who still like to build elaborate model train sets. We all needs hobbies. But my point is, having now seen FF, I have to say I actually did have more fun at it then I did at Spider-man 2. And far, far more interestly -- and going along with what some others have said here as well -- my kids DEFINITELY enjoyed the FF movie more than Spider-man 2. They were totally digging it, particularly the whole Ben-Johnny bits. In fact, I think I'll now have to brace myself for my son going from Jedi fanatic to Ben Grimm worshipper. So if nothing else, I'll have to say good work, Michael Chikliss, in making a young kid believe in you and in how you brought a hero to life on the screen for his young mind.
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It's spelled 'wrong'. Ha. Just kidding. And why would anyone post unless they KNEW THEY WERE RIGHT! Like that cool guy who's been losing money in the movie business for 20 years. Man, CHUD just ran a letter I wrote slamming something from their site and I mispelled a word. How fucking embarassing is that? I guess not as embarassing as actually visiting CHUD, but still a sad day for me.
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Jul 11, 2005 8:21:45 PM CDT
Triumph poops!, "I think diehard COMIC fans jump on it simply be
by immortal_fish
Looks like this is what makes or breaks a comic inspired flick. Problem I have with that is how the alleged comic fanboy community is inconsistent with this sentiment. I've been spewing all over this thread how Story was way more faithful to the FF source material than Singer ever thought of being with the X material, despite tribal sentiment here on AICN and elsewhere. I say this reluctantly, since I know you're a hater of Lee's Hulk. You and others like you claim that there wasn't enough "Hulk SMASH!" and as a fanboy, I agree. Thing is, too many Tales to Astonish covers depicted their contents as Soap Opera, which is what you and your fellow detractors have been bellyaching about for going on 2 years now. One of the long lived major players in Hulk history is Doc Samson, a fucking PSYCHIATRIST, yet you and others like you continue to wail on about how Hulk was unfaithful. Soap opera, check. Psychiatrist, check. Love triangle via Banner, Talbot, and Ross, check. All the reason to provide Ang's telling with the emotional weight it carried, but, no, no... not enough "Hulk SMASH!" for you and others like you. You claim that Spider-Man 2 comic fans took it so seriously, leading to its success, yet how did this same formula work for the Hulk film? Besides not at all. This is the same problem I have with Singer's films that no one else has a problem with. FF was just as faithful, only more so. But, no... Singer sits at the right hand of Raimi, so everything is okay.
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Jul 11, 2005 8:23:00 PM CDT
Ribbons, "do we fanboys give it more slack than we should becaus
by immortal_fish
Absolutely not. We expect yellow spandex. ;-)
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You know what's ironic to me about this movie not having any real score to speak of? The Corman version--rushed into production and funded by the loose change found under rugs--actually had a memorable, hummable theme. I don't understand why Spider-Man 1&2, X-Men 1&2, Hulk, Daredevil, Batman Begins, and now this Fantastic Four movie, don't. It's not lack of talent or money, with the pedigree that's being hired and I don't think lack of time is an argument either. I remember reading an interview with the actress who played the invisible woman in the Corman version (From my hometown, and who also ironically, fucked Dr. Doom in an episode of nip/tuck, or so the Germans would have us believe.) that they had something like a few weeks to shoot the whole movie before the rights expired. Everything was done on the fly, including the music. I really can't think of a single excuse other than that no one actually requests them to come up with anything distinctive anymore.
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Jul 11, 2005 8:27:47 PM CDT
"Back to point, Reed did indeed know. I can dig up the ish numbe
by adambalm
As I said, I believe I remember that from the Claremont X-Men vs. FF mini, but I may be mistaken.
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Its as simple as that. Directors and producers don't want those scores cluttering up their movie because they think its cheesy. Even movies with a really nice core melody on the soundtrack seem to be afraid to use it. Gladiator was that way. Spider-man actually had a GREAT theme, but its pretty subtle. I have mixed feelings about the issue. I like a good stirring theme, but the minimalist in me also likes for their to be a better marriage of music and visual. Although I guess those things are not mutually exclusive.
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Jul 11, 2005 8:45:26 PM CDT
adambalm, "a memorable, hummable theme. I don't understand w
by immortal_fish
Slow down. Scroll the above posts. I was one of the FF movie detractors in this regard. It had no score and I admit this. The film would have carried more dramatic impact if it did. There is something to be said for score. And for this reason, I disagree with you about the score for Hulk. It was the first time in a long time (if ever) that Elfman didn't sound like Elfman. Ang Lee hammered him hard to divert and grow artistically. You would know this if you took time to learn of the film's development. And with all it's plodding pacing (as most of you Hulk haters would have the rest of us believe) there was plenty of screentime to allow for score, including the final confrontation with David Banner.
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Jul 11, 2005 10:06:37 PM CDT
Immortal Fish: "Thing is, too many Tales to Astonish covers depi
by triumph poops!
Well, here's my take on this, Fish. And this is me speaking as someone who was once an avid comic fan himself -- though not much any more. I treasure my comics from the golden days of being a kid and from when I was really into them (hey, they're still lovingly packed away in), but all that said, as an adult I've also now moved on to other interests or "grown up" concerns that end up preoccupying an adult life. Not to mention another core issue about current day comics which is: what do I care about someone doing a modern day Ultimate FF or Ultimate Spiderman comic (for example) where they retell an origin or try to relaunch a character all so some current "hot" creator (ie. someone enjoying their 15 minutes of Andy Warhol fame) can jerk themself off, thinking "Ha! I'll do this better than those guys who actually CREATED this thing!" In the end, do I REALLY think they'll retell or restart characters better than Lee & Kirby or Lee & Ditko did it the first time around? Hell no. To be honest, I read Bendis' Ultimate Spiderman relaunch and the first thing that came to my mind was why the hell is it taking him something like 3 issues to retell a story that Stan Lee got across in only 20 or so pages? And Stan got it done with more emotional punch to boot! That said, and going back to being a self-admitted HULK detractor, I remember buying TALES TO ASTONISH when it first came out. Yes, they had soap opera-ish covers, as did many Marvels of the time. That was the emotional schtick and appeal over the competition. But to my mindset, it's still a matter of the core characters and the FUN you're supposed to have with them. I see the SPIDER-MAN movies and despites some quibbles about the second one being a bit slow and boring overall, I think the first Spider-man movie is the best superhero movie other than Donner's SUPERMAN (which I think is still THE best superhero movie ever made.) Why? Because in the end, both Spidey films delivered what you what you came looking for: a wise-cracking hero, web-slinging around, fighting some colorful villains. Peter at the Bugle with J. Jonah Jameson being as colorful as you imagined he's be -- in fact, in the case of the movies, even more so. And that's the key thing. The fun factor with elements like that. Going from the livliness of Tobey Maguire and J.K. Simmons in SPIDER-MAN to the dourness and heavy handed hamminess of Nick Nolte and Sam Elliott and, frankly, just about everybody in the HULK is just not fun...nor is it what people wanted. Which is why the movie was a box office disappointment. On the flip side, the FF movie (to me) delivered on the fun of the characters. Did they change certain elements? Sure, but I also expect that going into all of these movies. I know the cinematic incarnations are always going to be a "movie" take on these properties. But to me, even the FF movie stands above the HULK movie because it delivered on the core comic book sense of fun that you came to see brought to life on the big screen. Yes, the early Marvels have a sense of soap opera nature -- but keep in mind it was a FUN 1960's sort of over the top, teenager-ish, soap opera. Very broadstroke...well, like a modern day soap opera. In the HULK movie, once Banner gets captured and getstaken to the lab...gets mad and breaks out and fights the military...sure, THAT 15 or 20 minutes is GREAT. THAT'S the Hulk film everyone came to see. Right up to him calming down and changing back to being Bruce in San Francisco simply because Betty's right in front of him. THAT'S the basic, fun, teenager-ish soap opera aspect people could embrace. That they WANTED to embrace. That they came LOOKING for. But the whole fucking Nick Nolte hamminess and psychobabble aspects...the Hulking fighting jellyfish and who the hell knows what the hell else at the end just utterly sucked. I mean, I bought the Hulk DVD for one reason: I couldn't even SEE the ending of the HULK in the theater it seemed so dark. So I bought the DVD and cranked up the TV brightness, and I was still left saying "What the fuck is this ending all about?" The bottom line: Yes, I'm an old comic fan -- old enough to have bought the original Marvels when they debuted. AND I'm a big movie lover, and I can appreciate certain cinematic changes made to bring things to life. But in combining those two, at my comic adaptation movies, I want the same experience I had reading the comic: I want to have fun. Which I had at Superman AND at Spiderman AND at FF. But I'm a Hulk detractor for one simple reason: it was a shitty movie, plain and simple. Though as I said, nice break-out section. Too bad the fun and tone of that 15 or 20 minutes wasn't what the REST of the movie was like. If it had been, we'd already be standing in line for HULK 2.
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Wait, where's this hostility coming from again? I wasn't trying to insult you. Honestly I wasn't even thinking of you in particular, rather this topic that seems to be brought up more as of late. I'm sorry if my post sounded confrontational. I didn't mean it too. I wasn't attacking you, just noting it in a 'isn't this fascinating...' type way. Most of my posts are like that. Because speculation and seeing what others think on the matter is far more interesting than just showing up to scream my opinion, although we all do that. Also if you look at the War of the Worlds review threads, you'll see I've been an ardent defender of the Hulk as well. Yes I knew that fact about Elfman, yes I heard that Ang talk about that on the DVD, just as you had. I like that he forced Elfman not to reach back into his own bag of tricks, but that still doesn't give me anything to remember his score after the movie's over. Although the wailing/desert singing was cool.
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And the big audience (for a monday night) that I saw it with loved it. They clapped, they laughed, they may have cried. Now, we all know what they got wrong. But what they got right is important too. They got the FF right, The tragic Thing, the asshole Torch, dorky Reed and mother Sue. Plus they showed that having super-powers could actually be fun. God what a concept. I can believe a man can fly, but I can also believe a man would use his streching powers to reach for the toilet paper. This was a movie about super-heroes living in the real world and it caught pefectly what Stan and Jack were saying back in the sixties. That's what I think people are responding to...The film's humanity. Comic book guys of the world...get lost, this movie is a joy.
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Woulda thought he'd be here to rail against us who liked this flick.
Don't worry about the whiny fanboys, they'll go to see this and won't admit to it, but somewhere along the way they'll let some knowledge slip and will give themselves away as the hypocrite they are.
Why does every movie ahve to be dark and for that matter what is Dark?
I don't care how mess up a movie tries to be, how much the body count or how the body count got that way in the end it's just a silly movie. Dark. Pffftttpph! Dark. Sound like a little child. -
Jul 12, 2005 1:06:56 AM CDT
I'm going to see both Stealth and The Cave. They both look l
by the founder
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Jul 12, 2005 1:14:30 AM CDT
Still at it in here? Why can't we like both bats and F4? Jee
by the founder
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Love your posts, man. ("Fans 1, Fat Geek Critics 0," LOL!) Agree with you 100%, FF is a good time and it's true to Stan Lee (and itself) all the way through. Jessica Alba surprised me, she was fine as Sue Storm, at least as good as Ioan Gruffud was in his role. Chris Evans and Mike Chiklis, enough has been said, they are both awesome in the movie. The jokes in this movie are genuinely funny (I laughed out loud, something I very rarely do at a cinema) and there are a couple of fantastic (no pun intended) moments of sadness involving The Thing (the scene in which he couldn't pick up The One Ring was touching). Special effects are okay to great, no significant flaws, and the Thing costume is magnificent (as we all know from the ubiquitous "wow it actually looks like rock" exclamations on the Internet). I am totally down for the sequel, hope this continues to make a ton of cash. And to Harry Knowles: Pop in your Van Helsing or Phantom Menace DVD and get over it.
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adambalm: "You know what's ironic to me about this movie not having any real score to speak of?"
BurlIvesLeftNut: "scores like that are not popular anymore"
The reason FF's music suXORs is because Jerry Goldsmith is dead and John Williams is too old. Back in the day, when both of these guys were cranking out the classic stuff (late 70s to late 80s/early 90s), there were at least two or three new memorable scores every year. The pool of talent has pretty much run dry, nowadays; Lord of the Rings recaptured some of the sweetness, thanks to Howard Shore's very leitmotif-driven scores (there were a lot of "hummable" themes in that trilogy), but even a huge percentage of those movies' soundtracks were filler (particularly in the last two pictures).
Not too many directors realize the value of a good score in a film. Among contemporary artists, Kubrick did for sure, Spielberg does for sure; besides them, I can't think of any director who clearly and consistently exhibits the highest respect for music in a motion picture. Most filmmakers seem to consider it little more than background accompaniment, as opposed to a tool for creation as vital as any other. -
Jul 12, 2005 5:00:13 AM CDT
Stupid fanboys, I finally saw FF tonight and it was a fun movie
by assking
Nothing groundbreaking, but why would anyone expect a movie based on such a silly comic book to be more than an entertaining popcorn movie? I kept waiting for the movie to turn shitty, but it never did. Harry fucked this movie up for a lot of people by reading the script early on and deciding that the movie would suck. Anyone who thinks this movie is shit should stop sucking Harry's balls and think for themselves. FF wasn't great, but it was a shitload of fun.
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And spoken well. It hadn't hit me until you brought it up, this lack of "theme music", but there it is. Or isn't. James Horner must cost too much these days, but despite that & the death of Jerry Goldsmith ( a great, great loss), there are still guys out there who can put it all together. Eric Serra, who did a splendid score for The Fifth Element ( very entertaining & undervalued film), comes to mind. Brad Fidel's Terminator score gets ripped off left & right. Its more likely that the issue is not a lack of available composers, but stupidity on the part of filmakers. What would Search for Spock be without that perfect Horner score? It elevated the scene of stealing the Enterprise into something special, & great film makers ( which Tim Story is not) have always known this. Take away Bernard Herrman's scores from any of the Hitchcock movies he did, & the foundation is weakened. Any film maker who gives short shrift to the score is a tool, plain & simple.
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Jul 12, 2005 7:50:46 AM CDT
DennisMM - re:you guys should be begging for cameron to do THE A
by cloudrider`
what the hell?!! you guys are STILL talking about FF??? like it's really worth all this much web space. where's the love for the future coolest superhero franchise ever??? yes, pay allegiance to the AUTHORITY, you nimrods!!! and dennissMM, since you seem to be the only one who shows interest enough to reply, i'llgo easy on you. yes, i recommend newbies unfamiliar with the series to jump straight to issue 13. millar's issues are not about apollo and mnighter being gay! i dont know where you got that idea from. it's about these guys getting the widescreen treatment in which to show off
their ass kicking way. the panels are richer, the drawings are so much better, and frankly i think millar and quietly can do asskicking better than anyone else in the biz; tehy go even one better than the series creator, warren ellis IMO. and where's the characters intro you're talking about in issue#1 - 12??? i've read them all and it's not there. like you pointed out, people have to go back to stormwatch(i dropped the series even way before any authority members showed up) to read about these guys early years, but what's the point? we know these guys are cool. i dont need to know every backstory ever written about them to know that.
this is not watchmen, there's not much depth here. this series is about a bunch of cool assholes kicking ass in a big way. and yeah, i actually do not care much about jenny spark. it think the series become more interesting without her in it. but that's just me. but, if people want to know more about her and read up #1 - 12, by all means, do that. but i seriously think issue #13 is where you should start if you want to get hooked by it. oh, and mnighter and apollo are actually ellis' playful take of our two greatest comic icons, namely, batman and supes??? really? thanks for telling me the obvious, dennis. yeah, you're right -
spandex and black leather ARE different. ironic that someone who refered to me as 'son', would be that anal about the difference between leather and spandex. the
point is both are wearing 'typical' superhero costume, while the rest of teams wear a somewhat ouf-of-the-norm outfits. -
It would have helped this movie immeasurably if the producers had done one little thing. As Victor metamorphosized into Doom, CHANGE HIS VOICE with filters, the way they did with the Thing. So by the end, he sounds like what Doctor Doom is supposed to sound like...namely Vincent Price. If Julian McMahon has voiced Darth Vader, he would have come off a wimp, too. Whoever makes the DVD, try it. The movie will be 30% better.
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Wow... that's kind of cool. Shouldn't I have a fancy cape and underground complex or something? And henchmen! I've always wanted a bunch of henchmen I could slap around and send to do my bidding. Seriously, Fish, relax. I really don't harbor deep feelings about you one way or the other. I'm just a stickler for making a good argument and backing it up... which you've been doing a pretty solid job of in this talkback. And I commend you on not only revising your pre-screening opinion of this film, but also on being man enough to admit that the movie - at least on some level - changed your mind and/or surprised you. Too many talkbackers think that doing something like that will make their cyber testicles shrivel up and fall off, but I think it really is a sign of character. So kudos to you and my best to your daughter.
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Roland, i too need a nemesis. What do you got? Far too long have i raped, plundered, pilaged and tea bagged un chalenged on this blue rock. I spit in your general direction. Does thou accept thine defeat?
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...for arch nemesey (patent pending on this word, by the way) is $9.95 for the first minute and $1.95 for each additional minute (I cover all henchmen costs). That does include standard posturing and one free drawn-out exposition of my grand plans for your ultimate defeat (additional expositions are billed on a $.50 per word basis). The easily escapable and needlessly elaborate deathtrap scenario is a nice add-on feature for $50 and comes with regular and seemingly unprompted cursings of your name, which adds real value to the relationship (i.e. "Blast you, Man Juice!"). Those cursings are complete with frustrated fist pumps and include one random lackey execution at no extra cost to you. Of course, if you're looking for something a little lighter, I can sign on as your foil for a one year period at the flat rate of $75. With this package you don't get the elaborate death traps or prolonged exposition of plans, and any henchmen need to be sub-contracted on a job-by-job basis. But you do get free cursings and fist pumpings (if you want me to kill a lackey, I'll have to bill you for that). Please enter your Visa or Mastercard number and expiration date, as well as your preferred billing plan to continue.
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"millar's issues are not about apollo and mnighter being gay." Hmm ... Warren Ellis thinks so. Millar had both the hillbilly supervillain (name escapes me) and Last Call rant about the couple being gay. He had Midnighter and Apollo fight like a pair of bitchy queers. He had them married in the last issue, adopting Jenny Quantum at the same time. The underlying theme was Midnighter's and Apollo's relationship -- all the rest was just what Ellis calls "fight comics." But you're free to disagree, as I like to say. Just my opinion, and having stated my point I'm done with my end of the discussion. Thanks for sharing your views.
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I inadvertently addressed my post to cooky rather than cloudrider. Apologies to both of you.
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"thanks for telling me the obvious, dennis. yeah, you're right - spandex and black leather ARE different. ironic that someone who refered to me as 'son', would be that anal about the difference between leather and spandex. the point is both are wearing 'typical' superhero costume, while the rest of teams wear a somewhat ouf-of-the-norm outfits." 1. Batman in the comics wears a stretch sort of fabric. Very different from black leather. 2. You made it seem as if wearing "costumes" is gay, whereas the largest part of the Stormwatch gang did wear costumes. It was Jenny who refused to, thus opening the way for other Stormwatch members to move away from spandex. Whether that is the case or not, The Authority, as created, was not about killing bad guys. It was about anarchism among post-humans and the resulting violence. Peace out and much love, as the cool young people don't say anymore.
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Your mastery of the english language will prove your demise simple simple. But being that i still reside in my mother's basement and can not afford you outlandish price scheme, this round goes to you. Well played young man, well played. I digress, i rather enjoyed FF. it was hard to get over the criticism it took on this site by harry and co. but i enjoyed the flick regardless. I understand that Harry, Mori, Quint and such are not critics per se. But fans themselves. So i took it light heartedly the utter hate and disgust for this film even before the first negative was burnt. I did however have a problem with mori posting 2 reviews and suggesting that they hold no merit. Why even post the reviews to begin with. i accept that most fanboys hate and form opinions here without seeing a film, thats a given. But that was low even for here. It was un called for. I digress again (i do that some times) i will be the death of roland
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Are you referring to Mor's X3 script review? I must have missed his review of FF...
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actually no, It was either Mori or quint who posted to viewer reviews of FF but suggested that we pay no attention to them. the question is, why even post the reviews. I feel like they had it in for this film, which is fine. But why even post the 2 reviews
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...is half correct, adam. It was actually Quint who pretty much chummed the waters of pre-screening hate with any remaining shred of his credibility by throwing those two reviews up with a hearty disclaimer stating that he didn't trust them. By the way, MJ, this was a free sample of the sort of cursings you could be enjoying if you only gave me that credit card number.
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Jul 12, 2005 7:58:25 PM CDT
Childe Roland, "Shouldn't I have a... underground complex or
by immortal_fish
Some of us refer to it as our mother's basement. Or, in my case, my monster-in-law's basement. That Massachussetts Title V, she be a real bitch!
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Jul 12, 2005 8:08:38 PM CDT
adambalm, "but that still doesn't give me anything to rememb
by immortal_fish
Awwright. Since you put score as a subjective thing, I yield. Sorry I hopped on you, but I've grown defensive in this sea of Harry zombies. You didn't find the Hulk score memorable, while I did. Subjectivity. I grant you that. But there is a fine line between one's personal tastes and a solid artistic effort. Will admit that Elfman registered lower on the memoribility scale than did the TV Hulk theme. Yet this doesn't mean that I can easily get those six decending bars out of my head.
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Jul 12, 2005 8:36:29 PM CDT
Triumph poops!, "In the end, do I REALLY think they'll retel
by immortal_fish
Full grasp on what you're saying. Look, I wanted Trimpe era Hulk more than anyone else. Would have even been satisfied with the paint-by-numbers Buscema era Hulk too. If nothing else, it had that comic feel. Despised the lack of the Rick Jones character, who could have at least been the lab assistant Banner pushed out of the way if for nothing other than an obscure reference/homage. He was an important surrogate for Betty when Banner went green and the movie sorely lacked this necessary ingredient. Hated how the Hulk spoke only twice, one of them being a (phenomenally scripted) dream sequence of all things. Plus, I've already admitted earlier in this TB how Nolte was picture perfectly set up as Sterns aka Leader from the McFarlane era, which would have been way more enjoyable than that dark mash of movement who ultimately wasn't Crusher Creel and which neither of us really got to actually see until the movie was released to DVD. But my point was that Ang's Hulk was solidly based on the Tales to Astonish days -- which had imprinted on their covers many times that it was a soap opera. It didn't allude to it or jokingly refer to itself as such, it reveled in it with the words "SOAP OPERA" emblazoned upon it several times. Later on, the Samson character was introduced, along with all the psyche joining/division plots. Later there were other personas including the Hell Hulk. The cerebral struggles between the green and grey Hulks were explored even on the UPN cartoon of the 90's. I'm sorry the 2003 Hulk flick didn't provide you with the same sense of "I hope this never ends" feeling I got. But if you were dissatisfied mostly because of the tragedy aspects Lee threw in, well, they were already well-rooted in the source material decades beforehand and were absolutely not engineered by Lee for the sake of the film adaptation. Don't like the 2003 Hulk if you don't want to. That's your right, but just don't hate it for being something you don't happen to realize it already was. Like the FF flick, there are plenty other reasons to dislike it than that.
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Jul 13, 2005 7:04:13 AM CDT
Actually Immortal Fish, many of the Hulk elements you bring up (
by triumph poops!
...and it really does come down to not only taste, but "how" you reacted to the final film translation, the updating, and how it plays off your memories and the hopes you walked in with HOPING to be a kid again. But you've had some great posts in this thread. Nice to see a literate comic fan staking his ground, defending it intelligently, and in the end enjoying what he got in his movie experience. To that end, I'm glad you enjoyed the Hulk movie as much as you did. I think it's great when a fan of a particular character or genre or whatever can "get" what they wanted when they bought their ticket -- so, again, good to you. Like I've said as well, there ARE parts of the Hulk movie where I think it soars, so I will agree with you that there is some sort of gem in there...someplace. But nice work defending it, and nice to see everyone at this late stage of the game not yelling at each other so much and actually talking like geeks who are interested as opposed to geeks hoping to just yell. Man, I'm as guilty of that as anyone in the past, so maybe I'm mellowing. Shit! I guess I AM get old!
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Childe, Childe you're glib. You don't know cursings, I do!. It was my full intention to test your merit by Naming moriarty in Quint's stead. I have been told i am only as brilliant as my villians. You passed the initiation. I would give my evil laugh but i have since contracted asthma living in this basement.... er i mean lair. I welcome your cursings insolent cur. You may be ill equipped to chalenge one such as I, but your first showing was adequate enough.
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There's never nothing to be gained as a comic fan when watching a comic adaptation to film. Well, unless it's Blade: Trinity, of course. Each comic film has its cringe worthy moments. FF has the Ben cure and bikini bridge scenes in one flick. Bullseye begging a devilish garbed hero in a church for mercy as his palms bled was another (more offensive to me than the playground sequence, which was a close second in the same movie -- and I'm not even a Christian). Pretty much any scene where Kirsten Dunst pretends to be a dry Mary Jane too. Please check out Hulk again some lazy weekend afternoon when you're recovering from a broken toe. Hell, you've already invested in the DVD, so you may as well diminish its prorated value. Honestly, this is the only comic inspired flick I've seen that packs major reply value. At the end, when he's fighting rock/paper/scissors guy, wrap your head around the backflashes going on. When Hulk says "Take it all" it cuts to young David kissing his son on the forehead. The subtext being that he is too unstable to accept the gamma energy, thus gave it back to his son. Roll it on the tongue, like a fine merlot. The movie is loaded with those moments. I've seen you write in other TB that there are too many flashbacks, so I know you realise they are there. All I ask is you to consider how they were used. Another thing is you have to consider that Lee had to appease not only comic fans, but TV series fans, who both expected very different things (I won't bother to bore a veteran with the differences). There goes the amagalm theory I posed here earlier regarding the recent FF movie. It was a taller order any other filmaker has had to pull off in a comic adaptation, kinda sorta save Spider-Man, but his 70's series didn't remain as prominent in public perception was the series of Eddie's father. Let's admit the 60's Batman series was a joke that the way more serious movie adaptations by Burton and onward didn't have to contend with. Only Joss Whedon faces similar problems with comic vs. TV canon, and it will be so very interesting to see how that turns out. Hell, the garden variety TB contains loads of invisible plane references, meanwhile fans of the comic source material all know how WW can fly. Ergo my standing complaint to the Fans of Singer Coalition. Look, I could go on all night and interest in this TB is drawing to a close. Bottom line, I've enjoyed what ended up being a debate here on TB which is a place all too rife with argument. Thanks, guys. Because of you, there will be one less rabid weasel in the sack. Well, for a while at least.
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$100mil on the second weekend. Better first week BO than Charlie. managed to rank higher than WotW. The FF 'has legs'. But keep on hatin'! -- BTW, Hulk made $100mil in 10 days. But keep on hatin'!
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