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FANTASTIC FOUR (2005) review

The Fantastic Four has survived many terrible onslaughts in their years of fictional existence and they did so again tonight.

I just got out of the FANTASTIC FOUR film from Fox – and while it is mediocre, pedestrian, badly designed, lit and in some cases acted… The jewel of what the Fantastic Four can still be seen. It’s like a diamond compacted by the shit of the monkey over-seers in charge of this production – but in the course of throwing that shit-encrusted diamond… a few shiny spots shine through to show you that there’s a bit of Marvel’s greatest superheroes in there.

So… What stinks?

1. Jessica Alba – Sue Storm – Invisible WOMAN. She’s annoying, but beautiful. At no point would you get an iota of a clue that she was Von Doom’s lead geneticist. Not an ounce of the dialogue, her actions or even the way she holds herself leads you to believe that she would know a genome from a lawn gnome. She is used almost exclusively as either a nag or cleavage. Neither of which was really Sue Storm. I don’t think she was quite Halle Berry in X-MEN bad – but she was very very close.

2. Julian McMahon – Victor Von Doom – Dr. Doom. I know he’s allegedly a well loved actor from NIP/TUCK, a show I’ve never seen – and this performance doesn’t really make me want to see him in anything again. He comes across as sleazy bitchy villain #928. From that lame scar to his just smug look. He’s just a waste of screen time. Seeing Victor Von Doom all torn up in regards to proposing to Sue Storm… it’s just dreadful. Just about every aspect of this character is a complete and utter waste of time. I felt the ticks of an unseen clock clacking away everytime he was on screen. Then there’s the Latveria references – which I suppose is the bone they were throwing to all of us fans of the “real” Dr. Doom. This past 4th of July weekend, I had the immense pleasure of spending HOURS upon HOURS with Marv Wolfman chatting about his work on Marvel & DC’s adaptations of JOHN CARTER, WARLORD OF MARS, New TEEN TITANS and his work on FANTASTIC FOUR – and he went on and on about how he felt Dr. Doom was the greatest villain in the history of comics. How elegant and nuanced his back-story and creation was. How he wasn’t sure where any of it came from… Kirby, Lee… somebody else – but that it was the great glorious accident of the Marvel Universe. All of which was thrown out here.

3. Special Effects – The space stuff was dreadful. I’m not even sure if I can really express how shitty this stuff was. I mean – it was so bad I was longing for MOONRAKER or SPACE CAMP. There seemed to be a haze over it all. It screamed rushed and under-financed… except – it couldn’t really be under-financed, cuz you know they spent more money on the space effects in this film than 2001 cost in its entirety. It was just badly done. The Invisible Woman fx almost kicked ass – they had this wonderful air-brushed invisibility look going that had the soft balance light highlighting curves – but it seemed they wanted to also do the whole COMPLETE invisibility bit – but that just felt like a cop out. I understand the difficulty they had here – but the quasi-invisible look would have allowed her to still be a character whom we could relate to and observe – while the actors on screen wouldn’t have seen her at all. Then there’s Mr Fantastic… By having nearly all of his “cool bits” as a hero take place at night, I found his stretch stuff to be kinda lame. Especially during that last fight with Dr. Doom, though it was cool seeing him direct the FF at last.

4. The look of the film. Other than the Baxter Building – everything looked cheap and knocked off. The film had the cinematic depth of an episode of SEINFELD. Sets that weren’t textured. Nothing really had a sense of history or place to it. Much of it just seemed wasted. Like – you get this distant shot of Doom’s launch pad area – but there’s no launch. We’re told Johnny and Ben are pilots, but you won’t see it. Not really sure how they got back to Earth – but we didn’t see that flight or return. They set up placing flowers in outer space to be exposed – but we never see them again. The space station has gravity – somehow. Their uniforms kinda do look like leotards from Richard Simmons’ show. All the “matte” shots looked bad. Like half-assed GHOSTBUSTERS shots – and that isn’t a slight at GHOSTBUSTERS – cuz the matte shots of New York with weird shit happening there were excellent… Here, they seem very badly done. Frozen Reed – whew. Bad.

5. The Action. Pretty bad. Other than the straight out of the comics – missile on Torch’s tail sequence – all the action is buried in shadow. If you compare this work to that in Brad Bird’s THE INCREDIBLES – it’s painful. In fact – comparing any of this to Brad Bird’s THE INCREDIBLES is painful. There’s nothing in this that even comes close to being that cool. When Reed begins his series of transformations to distract and mess with Doom – you’d think you were about to see something very cool. And… I bet that if you were to see what Reed was doing as a separate fore-ground element – you’d be impressed – but it so blends in and feels flat with the background that none of it is striking, impressive or in the least bit fantastic.

6. Dialogue. Dreadful. I really really hate all the cute dialogue foreshadows throughout this film. Well – and that Von Doom statue foreshadow. Whether it be Susie feeling unnoticed, Reed stretching himself too thin, Ben feeling solid or Johnny being a hothead… They speak like bad bad bad afternoon cartoons. The script work after France’s draft was pretty much a waste of time and seemingly no effort. I’d hate to think it was work for someone to maim this wantonly dialogue into cutesy poo bullshit like this.

Ok – so with the Look, Action, FX, Dialogue, the Villain and 1 of the primary heroes all sucking pretty badly how could the Fantastic Four survive for me?

Mainly it comes down to the intangibles. A few scenes working here or there – mainly direct lifts from the comics and France’s early draft. There is no elegance or sense of scope with any of this film. It would be easy for me to just hate on this film – there’s more than enough wrong here for me to just call it a load of shit unworthy of anybody’s time – but that’s not how I feel.

Chris Evans and Michael Chiklis kinda rule. I like the THING make-up as a “stage 1” Thing. I know some on-line folks love to show the “HOW TO DRAW THE THING” image as some form of critique of the make-up that the crew that made the THING did – but frankly… It really does look almost exactly like early Jack Kirby The Thing. Now – that look evolved into a more angular and classic THING – and if (as I hope) this series were to continue in better and more competent hands. (Which I don’t think is likely) Then evolving his look would be wonderful.

I hate the amount of wasted time on this film. By complicating Reed & Sue’s relationship, giving Doom this whole corporate and financial under-plot I felt the flow and rhythm of the film just never really took off. I kept waiting for the Pogo-plane or the Fantasti-Car or any given of Reed Richards’ inventions to be activated. That mess on the bridge was just a mess. Just remembering back to the elegant first “action” beats of France’s script – it really had the FF working as a team. I do like that they kept a bit of the ol ‘fighting family’ aesthetic going.

I hate the absence of Yancy Street, Alicia Masters’ sculpting studio. I get that they were attempting to make an “origin” film – but everything they did in this film feels like the 8 pages of a comic leading up to the actual Fantastic Four adventure. It’s like… The Fantastic Four with nothing to do.

I love Reed and Sue at the “first date” spot and Reed’s bit about her wanting a stronger man – and his little facial bit. I love most everything with Johnny Storm – though – technically… I hate his hair cut, but that’s a nitpick… Just… it’d be nice when Ben Grimm makes a Blonde joke at his expense.. if, ya know… he were blonde. I like quite a bit with Ben, don’t like the marriage thing – or his wife going out in a negligee in the middle of New York. But Thing/Johnny gags were great – though I would have loved to have seen Ben actually rolling up Johnny’s car… cuz, that could’ve been a cool thing to watch instead of watching Sue being bitchy… again.

I think LITTLE kids will dig it, and mundanes (aka people not really familiar with the FF).

The more that you love the Fantastic Four – the more disappointed you’ll be in the film. The more educated in effects, film and the human language that you are – the more disappointed you’ll be in the film.

This isn’t so bad that I felt embarrassed for my favorite heroes – instead, it’s just a sad as hell that Fox and Marvel wasted what could have been such a fantastic opportunity to really raise the bar across the film world in terms of the superhero film. It’s a mediocre beginning – but then – FF1 wasn’t the best issue of the Fantastic Four – it is a series that got better and better… till the world ceased being the innocent world in which they were so Fantastic in.

Of the big summer films so far, it is by far the worst. But if this is as bad as the “gotta see” Summer films this year can get, then we should count ourselves lucky. Sure we’re getting some shit, but there’s a diamond in there too. Somewhere.

Readers Talkback
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  • July 5, 2005, 11:48 a.m. CST


    by FloppyStumps

    Really looking forward to this

  • July 6, 2005, 12:30 a.m. CST

    that sucks....

    by nalapou

    I was looking foward to this film... at least Jessica Alba is still amazingly hot.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:38 a.m. CST

    Still say it will suck.

    by Bean_

    I won't see it.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:38 a.m. CST


    by bib fortuna

    damn defective talkback. it ruined my sense of superiority..sniff..

  • July 6, 2005, 12:38 a.m. CST

    I dunno...

    by Bean_

    Wonder if Harry's opinion will change my mind...

  • July 6, 2005, 12:44 a.m. CST

    Oh FUCK...

    by Drworm2002

    I really really really really really wanted this to work. Why do they have to fuck up so many great comics. why can't they take the time and work to make it better then just go..."hey we could make a few bucks here...fuck make more movies...lets just make one bad one." Didn't anyone learn from Catwoman? I mean, that should have told the Co's not to stray too far from the source.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:44 a.m. CST

    kinda rule?

    by zacdilone

    Isn't that like "sorta pregnant?"

  • July 6, 2005, 12:48 a.m. CST

    Hey Childe Roland...

    by Ribbons

    ...sounds like somebody's been paying attention to your posts.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:52 a.m. CST

    Can't trust anything this guy says

    by JUSTICE41

    He hated this from the get go so why would his review be worth anything? Sorry fatman your words are invalid due to your hatred. Your too biased to listen to. Besides you like movies I've hated and you hated shit I like.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:58 a.m. CST

    Fantastic Forty-Two

    by pencil-man

    Holodigm, fuck you. If you don't like a movie, you don't like a movie. I hated The Matrix until I saw it. Even then, I thought it was entertaining, but nothing great. Alll you pojos seem to think God came down and annointed it with His Holy Cock, and then turn around and hate the sequels. I'm not going to see Fantastic Four until it comes to the library. Or until Fantastic 4 2 comes out.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:58 a.m. CST

    Dear - Above Monkeys - From Harry


    Actually - I didn't HATE it - I kinda liked it - there's just so much bad in it - that it isn't really a very good movie. Just mediocre with a few bright spots.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:59 a.m. CST

    This is what happens...

    by moviemaniac-7

    ... when you make movies with a release date in mind and not the movie itself. Fox blows it once more. All the reviews about the movies are mediocre at best. This does not smell good at all.

  • July 6, 2005, 1 a.m. CST

    And don'tr even pay attention to mo's review

    by JUSTICE41

    Mori is just The Good cop to Harry's stupid fat Bad cop, clown routine. Mori has always sided with Harry no matter how bad the movie, he just does it with nicer words.

  • It's been a while since I saw that one, but it sounds awfully familiar...

  • July 6, 2005, 1:01 a.m. CST

    "If you compare this work to that in Brad Bird

    by Anla'shok

    Ouch, that's sure to ruffle a few feathers.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:08 a.m. CST

    Is the quick talk back feature on the frits or what?

    by Anla'shok

  • July 6, 2005, 1:08 a.m. CST

    What... Jessica Alba can't pull off a geneticist?

    by el che'

    Will wonders ever cease?

  • July 6, 2005, 1:09 a.m. CST

    Anyway "If you compare this work to that in Brad Bird

    by Anla'shok

    Ouch, that's gonna ruffle a few feathers.

  • HARRY!! Why didn't you post my 40 Year Old Virgin review????

  • July 6, 2005, 1:11 a.m. CST

    Wait for it...

    by el che'

    Jessica Alba can "pull ME off any time!" Ho ho!

  • July 6, 2005, 1:14 a.m. CST

    Need more fun movies this summer.

    by GDM

    Is that too much to ask?

  • July 6, 2005, 1:18 a.m. CST

    Peyton Reed was supposed to do this, what happened?

    by Thoreau

    Really, he is a good director with respect for the material, what happened?

  • July 6, 2005, 1:21 a.m. CST

    very close,,,fantastic suck

    by perfecto_fan

    who gives a damn about first?

  • July 6, 2005, 1:29 a.m. CST

    Why didn't Peyton Reed make the movie?

    by Phloton

    Because Tim Story's Barbershop made a lot more money than Down With Love. It's clear they had no interest in putting someone with respect towards the material. It's the same reason studios hire Brett Ratner. A movie he was on made it's money back and some change. That's all that counts. Of course then you have another hack like John Singleton who hasn't had a hit since Boyz, but he still gets to make movies. I guess the studio makes enough in video sales.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:30 a.m. CST

    Lost Cuatros es Fantasticos!

    by PMK

    from Conan.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:31 a.m. CST

    By harry's comparison then The animated Batman cartoon is th

    by JUSTICE41

    Why would anyone with half a brain try to compare a cartoon to live action? Stupid. A cartoon can be made to do whatever you want. Live action, even augmented with CGI, is still limited. Just watch any of The StarWars prequels. Stinkerooonii Anyon who compares a book or a cartoon to the live action version should be fed feet first into a wood chipper.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:39 a.m. CST

    I can't wait!

    by spumpkin

    For the disappointment! Just kidding. How could I possibly be disappointed by something that I knew would suck from the very beginning? The Marvel films started out strong, but seemed to peter out around Daredevil. DC wins this round.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:43 a.m. CST

    Wow...what happend to Marvel

    by Bong

  • Who will spend money on a film ticket just to see how "hot" she is...forget plot, acting, etc

  • July 6, 2005, 1:47 a.m. CST

    Mundanes? Was that a fucking Xanth reference?

    by kintar0

    This fuckin' FF movie has looked shitty from day one.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:50 a.m. CST

    Space Camp Rules!


    I'm going to pull out my DVD of that and watch instead... I mean you have an all star cast! this move has everything! - Tom Skerrit, Joaquin Phoenix, Tate Donovan, howard the duck girl, Travoltas wife, the girl who ruined temple of doom, some token black guy, a robot, Star Wars references... um... space shuttles... Drama! Comedy! Did I mention a token black guy!??!

  • July 6, 2005, 1:52 a.m. CST


    by Det. John Kimble

    Although 'The Tick' did a great spoof of that story, seeing FF and the Surfer deal with the a world-eater would be, ya know, kinda cool.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:17 a.m. CST

    I will see this flick, pissed in my pants drunk

    by perfecto_fan

    Is there any other way to see this movie? Johnny Storm looks stupid with a fucken buzz cut.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:19 a.m. CST

    Hmmmm....Kai raises some interesting points

    by Purple Genie

    ....Kai raises some interesting points. Harry has hated this since frame 1 of a trailer. Wasn't busting out to see this, but Jessica Alba INVISIBLE??? It's so ironic it probably just has to be seen.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:21 a.m. CST


    by Hairy Nutsack

    Harry has never seen Nip/Tuck? Christ man you're missing some of the best TV ever! Oh wait I forgot, he doesn't like GOOD television.**AHEM** New Battlestar Galactica **AHEM**

  • July 6, 2005, 2:26 a.m. CST

    WARNING! There are industry hacks on this message board!

    by TedSallis

    And yeah, these guys are on FOX marketing payroll.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:28 a.m. CST

    It won't make more than BB because the BO is too crowded

    by andrew coleman

    You've got WOTW already out and Dark Water opening too. Both movies aim for the same demographic as F4. Now kids might go see F4 in packs but still won't help it to make more than 50 million in one weekend. I can see WOTW #1 with 37 million, F4 35, Dark Water 17-20 million. The word of mouth for this movie will not be strong and it will drop. I have my free pass from the Man On Fire dvd so I'm set to see it friday.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:29 a.m. CST

    This may or may not beat Batman Begins opening weekend. I doubt

    by Thirteen 13

    It probably won't debut at number one against War of the Worlds. They will probably have to settle for a debut in second with Batman Begins a close third. And yeah it might make more money than Batman Begins did for its opening weekend. Then of course Fantastic Four tailspins into 4th or 5th place the following weekend. Mediocre badly done superhero flicks don't stay in first or second place for very long.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:30 a.m. CST

    WARNING! There are people who think Industry Hack's opinions

    by Purple Genie

    LOL. Does pot make you paranoid?

  • July 6, 2005, 2:31 a.m. CST

    Just saw the movie tonight also...

    by Hail

    Harry is pretty much right. I never read FF, so I can't argue what's changed from the source material, but this film needed a more competent director...bottom line. There were so many things that happened w/o justification. The actor's (Ioan and Alba) needed to act off each other, and not just read lines while making emotionless expressions. I loved THING (especially the wedding ring moment after the bridge, which also happens to be one of those out of place moments I mentioned earlier). I also like Johnny Storm. Though he needed to be more Top-Gun Maverick, which at times he was. Unfortunatley, the director doesn't help this young actor maintain his consistency. There's also no emotional resonance to anything. Debbie leaving Thing. Thing being dumped, etc...However, I did like Julian McMahon, but I do think his best stuff is at the beginning before he becomes DOOM. After that, he really doesn't interact with anyone, leaving him to innermonologue. This movie is VERY episodic and never reaches a rythme, so it feels longer than it actually is. Ummm...I don't feel like dragging this out anymore. 2/4 stars

  • July 6, 2005, 2:39 a.m. CST


    by Fortunesfool

    Can you not just say it's shit. Episode 3 had a couple of good scenes in it too but it was a bad film, Lost in space had a couple of good scenes in it but it was a bad film. There was some great shots in matrix reloaded but in no way to they justify me saying it was a great film. This is clearly a bad film yet you seem to be defending it cause it has a couple of good bits..thats not a film thats a movie trailer.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:44 a.m. CST

    Not sure yet if I will see this

    by adolfoliver

    When the trailers are groan inducing, you just know the movie has little hope. Although I disagree with a lot of what Harry thinks about new releases, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that we agree on this picture. First of all, you just knew Jessica Alba was going to mutilate Sue Storm. You can tell Marvel had little respect for one of it's oldest, most cherished superheroes when they supported Alba's involvement in the first place. Jessica A. is just another pretty face in Hollywood and that is all she is. If they wanted her in the movie, then maybe she should have played the Thing's blind girlfriend or some other bit part. She doesn't seem like she could spell the word 'scientist', much less be one. Also, Dr. Doom has to be an absolute bad ass. He is arguably the most famous villian in the Marvel Universe and from the the trailers you get none of that. Instead of an older, wiser actor to play him, they chose a run-of-the-mill metrosexual frat boy to play him. In other words, someone who commands no authority. All Marvel has right now is Spider-Man to point to as a viable franchise and it is quickly running out of titles from which to draw upon.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:50 a.m. CST

    Harry didn't like Jessica Alba in the movie cause she was co

    by IamNumber1

    Seriously, Now that Harry says he hates this movie (but sorta liked it), than I will definitely see this movie. Just about every movie he hates I love. Christ, he also kinda liked catwoman. I don't expect this movie to be any good, but I'm still seeing it on general principle.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:52 a.m. CST

    DocFalken Help!!, we're being invaded by SuperHero Hypes fuc

    by Anla'shok

    Holy shit, we need a filter and we need one fast. Get ready boys the 'shinny happies' are on their fuckin way here to spread "positive buzz" for "their" god damn franchise. Here are some ways to spot em. First they complain that Harry has had it in for this film and that he is such a "meany" or a "fat butt" but that might be pushin it for em. They'll say that this film has a lot going for it and that we're being "rascist". If they do curse it will sound like they've never done it before, they might even self edit themselves like this "F**k or Sh*t" they'll use a lot of symbols like this :-( or this :-) and some may even type out "rolls eyes." Their kind of like an uber conservative church group on a road trip, but much more annoying.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:55 a.m. CST

    Sounds pretty good

    by Bryan

    Just kidding. I don't have any interest in this but I'm still pissed that Avi Arad burned the negatives to the original, probably way more entertaining Roger Corman cheap-o version. (That's what it says in this month's Wired.) I plan to buy the rights to this inferior Fantastic Four movie and burn the negative before it is transferred for DVD. Not because I have anything against the movie, but as a super villain revenge on Avi Arad. I would've done it to Daredevil but it's too late, that one already escaped.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:26 a.m. CST

    Just remember: Harry LOVED Van Helsing... PRAISED the Emmerich G

    by Triumph poops!

    What can I say? Go ahead and predict now how YOU'LL actually react to the movie if and when you see it...

  • July 6, 2005, 3:30 a.m. CST

    seeing how only list 12 (!!!) trailers, i'm not at

    by bauhausen

    ...rotten. i mean whenever did the ff4 need to be promoted? looks to me like the producers really had a bad feeling about this very early.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:39 a.m. CST

    Harrys nephew

    by simongarth2001

    Why didnt you take your nephew to see this Harry? You seem to take him to everything else. I am more than sure he would have loved it....

  • July 6, 2005, 3:50 a.m. CST

    For one- I Give a shit about FANTASTIC FOUR


    Triumph Poops - First off I wrote 2 reviews on GODZILLA - the 1st was the night of the world premiere and was about that premiere as much as the movie. You try to not have fun in Madison Square Garden sitting by Ali - audience members standing on their chairs doing the Arsenio Hall "dog pound" everytime Godzilla appeared on screen and so much sub-woofing power that every time godzilla stepped - you got a hummer. The next review was 36 hours later when I got back to Austin - took my father to see the first show that next morning in a nearly empty theater and found myself looking at a movie that would need an astonishing extracurricular experience to distract one from Maria Bello's horrendous acting and something pretty damn bad. As for ARMAGEDDON - I make no excuses - I love the film. Probably has something to do with having something in common with about 70% of the audience that saw that film. And I don't HATE - FANTASTIC FOUR. I kinda like it, despite a massive amount of shit in the film. And ya know what... I totally know where you're coming from. Had I not read about 9 drafts of this script and saw them systematically make the film worse and worse through the development process. Had I not been in contact with filmmakers at all stages of this production giving me updates about what was happening behind the scenes. Had I not just seen the film for myself. I probably would be clutching on to hope that they had made a Great FANTASTIC FOUR movie. I mean... It isn't that hard is it? You ask ANY Fantastic Four lover for a basic beat outline for how to tell the origin and a good Dr Doom vs FF story and you'll get pretty much the same thing. Unfortunately - most of those beats are not here. Unfortunately, and I wish to god I could tell you otherwise, the movie is mediocre with bright spots here and there. Can you have a degree of fun with this movie? Sure. But this isn't the movie that FANTASTIC FOUR could have been. And you don't need me to tell you that. You'll know it yourself this Friday.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:54 a.m. CST

    My Nephew


    SimonGarth - I didn't take my nephew to this tonight, cuz I didn't know about the screening till about an hour and a half before and he lives clear on the otherside of town and it was rush hour - aka no way to pick him up and get seats in time... or so I thought. The 200 seat auditorium didn't even fill up for the free screening - leaving about 50 seats empty. Sigh. I will be taking him to see the film next week. He will dig it, but I don't want to contribute to opening weekend.

  • July 6, 2005, 4 a.m. CST

    hey boss...

    by keepcoolbutcare

    Good to see you still awake this late in the evening.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:02 a.m. CST

    OK I've had enough, Harry is an elitist....

    by badboymason

    ..who thinks he knows more and has better taste than everyone else: "The more educated in effects, film and the human language that you are

  • July 6, 2005, 4:03 a.m. CST



    #1 - VAN HELSING sure as hell didn't look cheap - but back in 1974 that exact same script would have starred DOUG MCCLURE. #2 - VAN HELSING was never sold as being anything other than a Stephen Sommers caffiene sugar junkie saturday morning Universal Monster take-off. I actually would have GREATLY preferred Sommers' take on the FANTASTIC FOUR to this one. For one - the fx all would have been handled by ILM. Two - he would have the PogoPlane and the Fantasti-car. Doom definitely would have been based out of Latveria, and had been a sorceror/scientist. There would have been Doombots and tons of action (nonsensical action, but action none-the-less) and the film... would have ended with a sky loaded with asteroids with something silver approaching quickly from space.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:06 a.m. CST


    by Mark Twain

    Sigh. Harry gets a lot of grief for this one, but I gotta take his side. Yes, there is a lot to dislike about Armageddon, but I gotta chalk it up in my guilty pleasure column. I have no idea why. Somehow, despite all the flaws and horrible science, I like to watch that movie. For all you Armageddon haters, there's a great review at The Agony Booth that tears it apart and it's hilarious even if you like the film, as I do. Now what you saw in Van Helsing Harry . . . .

  • July 6, 2005, 4:06 a.m. CST

    "The jewel of what the Fantastic Four can still be seen."

    by Acerbic Norseman

    This sentence makes me dizzy.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:09 a.m. CST


    by keepcoolbutcare

    Just by reading your opinions here we all know how much love you have for moviies, in particular those in the "geekghetto" of popular culture...but can you HATE??? There's nothing wrong with hating Harry...yin yang you know. You bashed nearly ALL the reasons to go see a Summer Blockbuster...and yet you feel the need to tell people that you didn't really hate it? Let it die 10 years, some other company will pick up the rights to it...and we can do this all over again. Are you that much of an optimist that you'll be willing to ignore all the negative and say it wasn't bad? FLAME THE FUCK ON HARRY AND LIGHT THIS SHIT UP!!! C'mon, you'll feel better, I promise.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:12 a.m. CST



    I don't think if you know more about film, fx and human language that you're better than anyone or lessor than anyone. But knowledge of those three things and/or including knowledge in depth of THE FANTASTIC FOUR - will affect the love of love/hate one has for the film. That's simply a reality. Doesn't mean if you like it - you're a slobbering retard. If you hate it - doesn't mean you're Reed Richards. BUT - the lady I heard that "really liked" it at the theater tonight said, "I really liked it. I don't know much about the cartoon, cartoons are stupid." and her friend that liked it responded with, "I liked it too, it's almost as good as GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE" --- I'm not shitting you.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:16 a.m. CST

    Ok Harry

    by simongarth2001

    I am a massive FF fan too...since the late 60's. I just wan't the best FF film I can get. I am sure this one will do fine, but lets all hope they do it right for the sequel. It really isn't hard...just kindA...oooh, I don't know.....STICK TO THE SOURCE MATERIAL!! I want too see the real DOOM!! Maybe we still will.I am gonna enjoy this one for all it's worth and see what happens down the road.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:23 a.m. CST



    I don't flame to be funny, nor to be cool. When I out and out roast something, it's because it is god-fucking-awful. I honestly don't feel this is god-fucking-awful. It's merely mediocre. When a critic walking by me during the end credits asked me what I thought - I raised my hand and made that wavy hand motion that denotes mediocrity. You know, the international handsign for so-so. By the time I reached the door and the Fox rep asked what I thought to report back to Fox - I said - "Pretty Mediocre." That's not funny, that's not being mean. That's being honest. My father hated it far more than me. Robogeek instantly began comparing it to his own shit after a particularly bad night at a mexican restaurant - and everybody looked to me to give it the axe - and I just don't hate it. It is exactly what I thought it would be. A mixed bag. A film that would have moments that made me dream of what the FF could be, and a film that made me realize the limitations of everyone that made the film. I didn't know specifically what would work and what wouldn't. Though in the script, Johnny and Ben worked. Reed and Sue really didn't. Reed wound up working better than I thought. Doom was bad in the script, much worse in the film. Ultimately, the film had a warm spirit to it - but bad action, some piss poor space stuff that reminded me of very bad space films, and Doom burning a hole through a guy that looked about as convincing as something out of SCARY MOVIE 2. It's a wildly mixed bag with some stuff I liked, some stuff I hate. But ya know - if ya love it, killer. If you hate it, damn, I'm sorry. And if you're like me - you hope that Fox learns from their mistakes... Sees the potential in the property. Attracts a far better director, gets Michael France to writing, and makes a vastly superior 2nd film.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:28 a.m. CST

    by keepcoolbutcare

    What's worse, Harry being judgemental or you suckers begging for a reply from him?

  • July 6, 2005, 4:35 a.m. CST

    Please use full sentences in reviews

    by kuryakin

    Unless you are B.M Bendis you don't need to...I mean it's like - did you ever...the effects in this film...when they work...they don't work....

  • July 6, 2005, 4:39 a.m. CST



    Well - go back and read my comments in regards to X1. I was slagging on it - but was reserving judgement based on Bryan Singer's talent, the talent assembled (Patrick Stewart, Ian McKellen, Darth Maul, Halle Berry{she was an actress back then}, Rogue girl{it's late}) - The script had gotten far more right than wrong - but the word from set and from some of the actors and from FOX was quite awful. When I went into the theater to see X-MEN, I knew it was going to be fucking dreadful. When I left the theater - I was so fucking happy cuz while it wasn't the X-MEN of my youth - it was it's own great cinematic invention. I have no problem with change if it works. I wish to god this worked. This Doc Doom does get plenty of laughs from an audience. Anna Paquin is many times the actress that Jessica Alba is... though, I'd rather fuck Jessica Alba - though settling for Anna Paquin wouldn't suck. Actually - I haven't had a wedge up my ass about this movie from the beginning. Read what I thought about it when Columbus was set to direct and even Peyton Reed. No, my ass wedge began when the director of TAXI and Simon Kinberg's dreadful fucking draft landed in my hands. As for T3 - the film changed my mind, remember. I railed on that for months - and then liked it. Avi hasn't been snubbing me, we spoke as recently as when he cast Kelsey as THE BEAST. I have never had a producer gig at FOX - that's bad info mate. And I'm not obsessed with the film being 100% true to the comic, I would love for it to just work on its own merits. It didn't. As for the GODZILLA screening. Dude - you ever seen a movie with 40,000 other people... Beach Balls being bounced around the stadium. Audience doing coordinated chants. It wasn't a film - it was an event. And one you just couldn't understand unless you were there. And I absolutely admit it affected the review, that's why 2 days later... I wrote the review stating I was insane. Point to another critic that has done that.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:39 a.m. CST

    plant city...

    by John Travolta

    ...for a good laugh, check out the FF page. It's a jungle out there dammit.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:42 a.m. CST

    Wow, interesting to see Harry not just posting a review, but act

    by Commando Cody

    I think the only point Triumph was trying to make was the exact same point others have made over and over again as well: going by all the films Harry HAS liked and raved about here -- and then comparing it to your own experience with those exact same films -- you can sort of guess where you might stand on the FF in the long run. I mean, it's a pure and simple extrapolation. If you do it for Roger Ebert and his thumbs up or down reviews, no reason you can't do it for Harry as well. And frankly, as a filmgoing comparison, I actually wish he had taken his nephew simply to see how a kid did react to this. Being the purist he is, will Harry completely freak out if his nephew loves it and adopts this version of the FF to call his own? And makes it the version for his generation to embrace and go by? I know my own nephew (who's 10) is dying to see this. To him, this is the big movie he's waited all summer for. He's loved all the things he's seen so far, and it's certainly got the, in the kid...jazzed for this movie. Me, I'm a lifelong FF fan (and I mean lifelong as in going al the way back to the priginal Kirby era) and the trailers won me over. Naturally I'll base my review on the final film once I see it, but so far I have to say I'm not completely outraged over what I have seen. I certainly think I'm going into it with a fresher and better frame of mind than Harry did, who actually did seem to take some rather heavy baggage in with him, or at least did seem to make his mind up to a particular degree a long time before this thing ever unspooled. Then again, I'm looking forward to a fun, big budget FF summer flick since I'm one of those that owns a copy of the Corman film, so I can honestly say I know what a truly crappy film version of the FF can be like!

  • July 6, 2005, 4:46 a.m. CST

    Re: My Sommers' FF bit


    It was tongue in cheek, but honestly - he would have made a better film, far more imaginative than this. As for VAN HELSING's trailers and marketing materials... that isn't what advertised the movie to me, it was Sommers. Any time you see his name, you know... without a doubt that you'll be getting a jokey, hokey, overblown spectacle with all the nutrition of FRANKENBERRY CEREAL. His films are not to be taken seriously. My dream FF would've come from Zemeckis or Spielberg. I would have loved to have seen Joe Johnston handling it or Mostow. But - if you think the director of TAXI is a worthy director for FANTASTIC FOUR - then, my friend, enjoy.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:48 a.m. CST

    Hey, wait a minute! If Harry is up late and here and responding

    by Commando Cody

    WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON WITH JOHN CARTER OF MARS? Seriously, this a news site, so where's some good inside news on it already? Or should we assume now that Paramount has forbidden you from saying anything, and we have to turn to other movie sites for early dirt on the film? And by the way, let's be very, very, very, very, very clear on this, Harry: HUGH JACKMAN NEEDS TO BE JOHN CARTER.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:51 a.m. CST


    by evergreen

    I had such high hopes. I'll have to stick to the Corman-produced version version

  • July 6, 2005, 4:53 a.m. CST

    Commando Cody


    As I said above several times. I kinda do like it, in spite of all the problems. Your 10 year old nephew will enjoy it, just as I know for a fact my 5 year old nephew will enjoy it. He won't know the difference between this Doom and the comic - he can't READ yet. But ya know what... It will get him INTERESTED in the Fantastic Four - the same way that Ralph Bakshi's LORD OF THE RINGS got me interested in LORD OF THE RINGS - though this isn't anywhere near as good as LORD OF THE RINGS by Bakshi. For one - the music by Ottman isn't anywhere near as cool as the score on LOTR.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:54 a.m. CST

    Uh, Harry, drop the bombs and roll out...

    by Anla'shok

    Mucking around in the talkbacks with frothing fanatics is just going to depress you.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:54 a.m. CST

    Whoever this "Alba" is, I take it this is a repetition of that r

    by SalvatoreGravano

    ...with one "Richards, Denise" as a nuclear scientist. Or, as she would have spelled and pronounced it, "nucular" scientis.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:58 a.m. CST

    Cody - Re: JOHN CARTER


    No - Paramount hasn't forbidden me from saying anything. There just isn't much to say at this point. We've got an 8 and a half minute teaser reel, tons of great design stuff, etc... right now the production is concentrating on nailing the script to make it the best damn film we can. That's in the hands of Ehren Krueger currently. More will be known, when it is known. -- As for Hugh - doesn't he look exactly like Frazetta's paintings of John Carter?

  • July 6, 2005, 5:06 a.m. CST



    Actually - I've never proclaimed myself as a proper anything other than who I am. I also accepted an all expense private jet trip to new york with John McTiernan and tore ROLLERBALL to pieces. Actually - in regards to Tim Story - when Avi Arad was telling me that he'd found this brilliant director - and that his film TAXI was testing through the roof and was just great. I was excited. I saw BARBERSHOP and thought - ya know, if he applies this type of warmth and a good family sense of humor - then the FF will really feel right. Then I saw TAXI. And that film was just dreadful. What'd you think of TAXI? I don't know. I saw DOWN WITH LOVE and TAXI and I thought. Man, DOWN WITH LOVE was about 1000 times better. But ya know what, James Cameron directed PIRANHA 2, Spielberg directed ALWAYS and HOOK, Tim Burton directed PLANET OF THE APES - people have bad days. This film is VASTLY superior to TAXI, far worse than BARBERSHOP. So it is either the second best or second worst. Depending on your take.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:09 a.m. CST



    Couldn't say there was anything I didn't like in WAR OF THE WORLDS, cuz I absolutely loved WAR OF THE WORLDS. I prefer the George Pal version - mainly because I love that ship design and the destruction of L.A. and the Church ending and the Atom Bomb drop. And "Everyone knows what the white flag means."

  • July 6, 2005, 5:15 a.m. CST


    by Lethal Waffle

    Hey Harry... glad to see you answering your "readers" in direct. I must say that I will side with you regarding "Armaggedon" - I love that film too... one of the best pure pop-corn summer fun films we had in the last 10 years... clearly one of the best of the Bruckheimer team. But "van Helsing"... there I totally hate that film, Sommers cannot handle SFX - he overuses them and therefore a Sommers version of FF4 would make me worried A LOT. Keep the good work - ignore the trash talk from some Talk Backers... I think it's amazing what you have achieved with Aintitcoolnews... you manage to live your dream and that's what counts. Although be careful - you have lost your enthusiasm from the beginning... I remember when i first started to read your website in 1997 you were reviewing more films, you were more enthusiastic about films... now you tend to be much more critical. This is a common pattern from anyone involve in the movie business it seems - you lose your "pure love" for films and get to see more and more the flaws...

  • July 6, 2005, 5:16 a.m. CST

    Well, since your answering questions...

    by Anla'shok

    1. Is Doom shown to be as intelligent as Reed Richards? 2. Are there any glimpses or flashbacks of Latveria? 3. Does Doom create any devices?4. Will we be getting a post count feature in talkback?

  • July 6, 2005, 5:17 a.m. CST

    Caught the Pal version on terrestrial.

    by Trevor Goodchild

    Hadn't seen it since I was under 12. Didn't realize how Christian it was. 'They've cut their own throats"

  • July 6, 2005, 5:22 a.m. CST


    by Eugene O

    You owe her an apology, Harry.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:23 a.m. CST

    Anla'shok's questions about FF


    1. Not directly. You never really see Doom doing science - but he does have a space station and an independent private space shuttle and a billion dollar corporation. 2. No glimpses of Latveria - one fella mentions that perhaps he should return there for a while. And the mask he wears was presented to him by the peoples of Latveria. 3. Not at all. 4. I don't know what you mean. Folks - my problem with Doom isn't just the difference from the comic character - it's that what he is given to do in the film is pretty sparse, boring and uninteresting. He's Donald Trump with Electro's powers and metal skin. I just find that boring - and not necessarily as interesting as what they could have otherwise done with the character.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:29 a.m. CST

    I may be wording it wrong, but it's a feature that let's

    by Anla'shok

    That way when newbie freakazoids weasel their way over here to rag on you and your site they can be outed like the festering postules they are.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:29 a.m. CST



    I'm not going to go through the process with you, simply because detailing the process would cause more problems. Point is - we try to do our best. When you have assholes out there that try to prank on everyone - it makes it harder. They target more than AICN btw. Don Murphy is a lovely chap that tries to keep us all straight online, we all love him. When we discover a plant - we tend to remove the whole story with the talkback.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:29 a.m. CST


    by stlfilmwire

    He says everything about the movie is horrible, but then he goes on to say that people unfamiliar with The Fantastic Four will like it!?!? That makes no freaking sense. So people unfamiliar with The Fantastic Four will really dig a movie that you say has bad acting, bad FX and bad art direction? Whatever.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:30 a.m. CST

    Maria Bello... um, oh yeah - did I mention - It is 5:22am


    heheh, Sorry Maria - you're lovely and talented. I owe you a back rub.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:32 a.m. CST

    "[Maria Bello] I owe you a back rub."

    by Eugene O

    Now that's more like it! :)

  • July 6, 2005, 5:35 a.m. CST

    A Fantastic Four movie should be heavy science fiction.

    by Eugene O

    This movie is anything but...

  • July 6, 2005, 5:42 a.m. CST

    My 4 year old son can't wait

    by zekmoe

    I think he will love it. I'll like it just as a popcorn action fest. I won't expect much and will be delighted. People liked the Tim Burton era batmans, and I hated them, but still watched. I'll take any comic/superhero/sci-fi movie I can get. Great ones will be in there. So will medeocre ones. But my son won't care. He'll be saying "Its clobbering time" while wearing his rubber fists and feet.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:47 a.m. CST

    Harry: "But ya know what, James Cameron directed PIRANHA 2, Spie

    by Commando Cody

    Harry, thanks for the John Carter update. Much appreciated as a lifelong Burroughs fan. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a great film and for Jackman to be cast since (as you mentioned) he really does just look like the picture perfect personification of the old kick ass Frazetta paintings that drew so many of us into the Burroughs books to begin with. As for your comment I cited above, let's keep one thing in mind. Of all the films you listed, Cameron's PIRANHA 2 (in my opinion) is the best of that lot. Why? One, because even as a low budget film it still feels Cameron-esque in tone and execution and is still Grade-B film fun, while the others are conversely A-level bores. And second, simply because Piranha 2 WAS a low budget, grade B film! Keep in mind for Piranha 2, you had Cameron at the very BEGINNING of his career whereas with Spielberg and HOOK and ALWAYS -- and likewise Burton with APES -- hey were on the opposite end of the scale. At the point they made those films, they were well INTO their careers and (and this is a big "and") they got all the money and had all the resources they needed to make those films. So to me, it isn't even fair to compare the "bad day" that Cameron had with PIRANAH 2 to the other films you listed. But, hey, we're talking about James Cameron, my favorite filmmaker so of course I'm gonna defend the guy!

  • July 6, 2005, 5:51 a.m. CST

    The Incredibles was a great Cartoon. But just because there are

    by Mr. Profit

    Many things will hurt this film. 1)Jessica Alba- It's common knowledge that she is not a great actress. She's not even a good actress. She is just smoking hot. Rachel McAdams who is on a roll should have been offered the role. 2)- The trailer looks like it shows the whole film. And when they showed the trailer yesterday at the theater an old man loudly said "That's not what happened!" when Doom was shown on the ship. But Harry's tastes may be a lot different than mine, he said Land of the Dead was a masterpiece when many of the critiques he leveled at the FF could be applied to LOTD. So I don't know what to think. The film is getting a great promo push. And at Toys R Us all the FF toys were there as soon as you walked in, with kids snatching up Thing hands. And it's probably the only film this summer that wont scare little kids so it will make some money. But a big time summer blockbuster? We wont know for sure until Monday.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:55 a.m. CST

    The Doom Factor

    by halfmadjesus

    It's just as I said a few weeks back: If Marvel/Fox/Tim Story fuck up Dr. Doom, then they've fucked up the movie - very simple. Marv Wolfman's got it right: Doom is the greatest, most complex villain in the history of comics. Yeah, the younger set likes their Venom and what-not, but for old schoolers, Doom's top-of-the-heap. It's arguable, but just barely. Magneto is a poor man's Dr. Doom. He didn't have much of a personality or backstory until Chris Claremont and other writers began infusing him with bits o'Doom. Anyway, the point is, they should've taken great care in adapting the good Doctor to screen. The kind of care Sam Raimi took in translating the Peter Parker/Spider-Man character - virtually the same as the comics, even the somewhat goofy bits. Why? Because the rest of the FF movie could be just as Harry describes it, but if they got Doom perfect, he'd be raving right now, that's why. It'd be a 25% cooler picture just for that. In comic book movies, villains are just as important as the heroes, and in the case of the FF/Doom, I'd say the villain is MORE important. Doom as an evil business tycoon/ex-boyfriend of Sue Storm greatly marginalizes, and I'd say castrates, a classic character in favor of a run-of-the-mill movie bad guy. By all accounts and appearances, it looks like Marvel and Fox aimed for and achieved mediocrity across the board with Fantastic Four. After seeing it, I might not want my money back, but I may never want to see it again, either. Can't say that prospect thrills me exactly.

  • July 6, 2005, 6 a.m. CST

    Quit Trashing Jessica Alba

    by Itchy

    I'm tired of all you hacks denegrating Jessica Alba's acting skills. She is actually a terrific actress. She needs to prove it to us by taking an Oscar worthy role - preferrably one of a young, drug addicted sex addict who spends an entire movie completely nude filming grapphic hardcore porn scenes to support her habit. Only then will her genius be recognized.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:01 a.m. CST

    The Reviewer's Rights

    by LucienPierce

    Armageddon was pretty cool, for what it was (Pearl Harbour just pips it as Bay's worst). I thoroughly enjoyed Van Helsing, for what it was (despite horrible casting for Dracula and his troupe) And Godzilla...well had they cast someone other than Broderick it could've been really cool. my point. Harry didn't enjoy FF and gave his opinion as such. That's what he does, as a reviewer he is just sharing his opinion of the film in his capacity. Doesn't mean I'm not gonna watch it. Just means he didn't like it. What I disagreed with was slagging a film before seeing it which happens on AICN more often than not (including talkbackers). Does going into a film hating it sour a film before seing it? Not always...I remember thinking Starship Troopers was going to be the biggest turd I'd ever seen but ended up loving it. It's not the greatest film but due to my low expectations it ended up being even better than had I been excited for it...While I doubt that FF could be better than Batman Begins I'm sure it'll be enjoyable.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:03 a.m. CST

    Harry , dude forget the zombie gear contest,

    by BrainFart

    keep the gear for yourself and raid sony to find out wtf is goin on with spiderman 3.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:03 a.m. CST

    Books to adapt...

    by keepcoolbutcare

    Way off topic here but I was just thinking...what next? We seem to be running out of comic books to make into movies so let's branch out here into books that could/should/hopefully will be/please god don't let them fuck this up novels that might adapt well to film..."Snowcrash", "Ubik", "The Golden Compass", "Survivor", "Filth", "Neuromancer", "Et Tu, Babe", "Blood Meridian"...I know the list can go on and on but what do y'all want to see?

  • July 6, 2005, 6:08 a.m. CST

    Leyner Needs to Make It to the Screen

    by docfalken

    But there isn't a comedian out right now that could do his perversion justice.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:11 a.m. CST

    I noticed the color thing to match the CGI too, but I thought WO

    by Mr. Profit

    The way spielberg filmed the SFX was pretty smart. He understands the limits of CGI. Sure the film should have looked nicer, but I had no problems. WOTW is a great film with top notch SFX, good acting, tight direction, the Tim Robbins scene was a little over long. The happy ending was a little too cookie cutter, but that's Spielberg. One thing, the way the aliens died made sense. I dont know why people hated it. But man the film has potential for a sequel if the Aliens are able to discover Robitussin. But WOTW's ending got trashed unfairly.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:17 a.m. CST


    by Dave33

    Most of the people who attended the test screenings LOVE the movie!.We all know that Harry has a personal agenda against the FF and Fox,screw him!!!!.Go to see the movie,you wont be dissapointed!

  • July 6, 2005, 6:19 a.m. CST

    I won't pay to see this

    by Rupee88

    This movie will make millions in profits, but I won't be contributing. It just encourages Hollywood to rape more beloved properties. This film has looked SO bad from the start and nothing has changed.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:26 a.m. CST

    on Leyner...

    by keepcoolbutcare

    Leyner...Clive Owen? Dan Castellaneta? Adrian Brody? Kevin Spacey? Bruce Campbell? Jake Gyllenhall?

  • July 6, 2005, 6:28 a.m. CST



    LOVE is overstating it. Most of the people that saw it tonight - kinda liked it. With the hardcore geeks HATING it. And me - recognizing what I felt was terrible - and still sorta liking it. By no means am I telling anyone to stay away. See it. I want a 2nd, BETTER one. I have no personal agenda against Fox. I loved REVENGE OF THE SITH and thought MR & MRS SMITH was fun. I think their plans for X3 stink, that Tom Rothman is a mook that abuses his filmmakers - specifically the good geek ones. And that making an X3 film that doesn't yet have a solid script and then rushing it for release in MAY of next year with a director that isn't known for great character or action, but hilarity... is the wrong direction. That's not an agenda - that's an opinion. But - I guess if you love ELEKTRA, LXG and ALIEN VS PREDATOR - you're Rothman's buddy!

  • July 6, 2005, 6:29 a.m. CST

    PLEASE direct yourselves over to

    by Ribbons

    ...where you may bear witness to some of the plantiest plant reviews of a movie (in the "User Comments" section) ever spawned. While I do think some of Harry's comments were on the nitpicky/petty side, a lot of them made sense. These reviews certainly don't help (neither does our new friend "Dave," who's either a plant or a toolbox). When will Fox learn their fucking lesson? It's almost as bad as those LXG "reviews" that were sent in to this site in 2003. "Sean Connery is a rock star." Mwahahaha.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:33 a.m. CST

    You still up?

    by keepcoolbutcare

    Man Harry, it's 4:20am here in Oakland and your still awake there in Austin? I thought that only in Cali did we have the buds that keep you up all night!

  • July 6, 2005, 6:34 a.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    I have a couple of questions: you seem to have a few specific beats in mind both about the character of Doom and an origin story of the Fantastic Four that this movie needed to and didn't hit in order to be done "right." Let's say that Doom is not allowed to be the ruler of a fictional country called Latveria who has it out for the Fantastic Four. You might not agree that the public wouldn't buy that, but just humor me here. What would those beats be? Question Number Two: who's that old guy with the Thing Hands in your new GIF?

  • July 6, 2005, 6:34 a.m. CST


    by kwisatzhaderach

    This movie looks awful, i'll probably catch it on TV in five years or so. What a waste of time and money.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:40 a.m. CST

    Pixar Got It Right

    by Evil Chicken

    I believe that Harry is spot on with the Brad Bird analogy. If you want to see a great Fantastic Four movie rent the Incredibles. Pixar served the story where Fox has (as it appears to this fan-boy) cow towed to the marketing department. Here

  • July 6, 2005, 6:43 a.m. CST

    I can't take it anymore!!!!

    by Shan

    Disappoint(-ed). Two 'p's and one 's'! NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND! Write appoint first, note the two 'p's and then add the dis+.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:45 a.m. CST

    "Fat Harry" animation theme courtesy of Captain Marvel

    by docfalken

  • July 6, 2005, 6:47 a.m. CST

    As for WotW's ending ...

    by Shan

    ... I think a lot of the gripes were not the whole bacteria angle from the book as ... a) someone who TC and DF meet at the very end who you wouldn't expect to see there because of THE WALL OF FIRE THEY walked into and maybe b) The alien war machines go from fully functional to doing the funky chicken walk and falling over without any transitional scene inbetween showing the start of the sickness. It was like a switch being flicked in terms of the change.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:49 a.m. CST

    Auteur theory

    by keepcoolbutcare

    Seems like the better supes movies tend to have a strong director behind them (Raimi, Nolan, Singer...I even dug A. Lee doing Hulk). So what does Fox do? They drive away two wunderkinds (Singer, Whedon) and end up with, to quote J. Hoberman (best film critic working today, someone who's "less than an auteur but not quite a hack" (Ratner), and Story, who hasn't yet done anything to warrant a franchise picture.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:50 a.m. CST

    As for Fantastic Four ...

    by Shan

    .. my WotW post I meant "the whole bacterial angle from the book as MUCH AS ... This Fantastic 4 Movie, the adverts look ok but it doesn't really leap out and grab me as of yet.

  • July 6, 2005, 7:14 a.m. CST



    The Canadian Flag was in honor of CANADA DAY - JULY 1st. I put it up before I left for Minnesota. The night of July 3rd I got very drunk at a party at CONVERGENCE - a convention in Minneapolis. Was partying - enjoying the holiday weekend like all red-blooded Americans should. The next day I had to get up early (hung over) pack all my shit and get ready to sit at an airport for hours on end. Flew back to Austin, got back to my place and an internet connection at 1:25am July 5th. OOPS. The July 4th Harry head doesn't show a flag anyways - it shows Emmerich spaceship blowing my head up. Then wishes all a Happy Independence Day. Wish it would have gone up. I blame booze and girls in wonder woman and batgirl costumes.

  • July 6, 2005, 7:20 a.m. CST

    The Fantastic Foursome

    by 1000yearFocker

    ...was a much better film

  • July 6, 2005, 7:21 a.m. CST

    Brobdingnag is a RETARD

    by PacinoHatersGoHo

    Harry, you shouldn't even address those sort of comments... if someone is displeased with the state of their country, whether it be political or social, then Brobdingnag advises you to leave rather than expressing your opinion and trying to have an influence on the country's future in a democratic fashion. I hope Brobdingnut's opinion is a minority one, or otherwise we are witnessing the transformation of the US into a Fascist state... oh wait, it's too late you say? Damn...

  • July 6, 2005, 7:37 a.m. CST

    Fan boys criticise Harry...

    by dennett316

  • July 6, 2005, 7:37 a.m. CST

    Were the special effects as bad as those in the King Kong traile

    by Atticus Finch

    'Cause if so, then that is bad.

  • I mean, INDEPENDENCE DAY made money, THE FAST AND THE FURIOUS made money, the first XXX film made money, and hell, even DODGEBALL made money. All four are stupid, STUPID films, but the general moviegoing public likes stupid films as long as they're flashy and geared toward the current MTV audience. After a long week stuck in cubicles or sitting at home playing their Sony PSPs, people want to shut their brains off for a couple of hours and FANTASTIC FOUR will service that need nicely.

  • July 6, 2005, 7:49 a.m. CST

    sorry, pressed wrong button

    by dennett316

    As I was saying, I loved how some of the fanboys slated Harry for saying the film ain't to great, only to say they hadn't seen it and were sure it would RAWK!!!! What the fuck is wrong with you people, see the film first then feel free to criticise someones OPINIONS, (note the word opinions, not order you must obey). Also, I don't know about anyone else, but if I go into a movie thinking it will suck I find myself being pleasently surprised more often than not. Having a love or particular affinity with a film sets up for more disappointment. Oh and brobdingnag, the love it or leave it shit is so old and redneck. Is your connection sheep powered? For the record, F4 looks sucky, but in an entertaining way, will wait for dvd.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:03 a.m. CST

    If it makes more money than Begins I will have lost ALL hope

    by performingmonkey

    Begins was made by talented people, unlike FF. However, no-one gives a fuck about that as long as the movie's promoted in a MTV style and looks like it contains effects like the Human Torch that the MTV fuckasses want to see. No-one went to see Begins (well, not no-one know what I fucking mean) because it didn't look 'flashy' enough for most people. It looked too dark, deep and scary, something the MTV fuckasses don't want from a comic book movie. Spiderman was fairly deep in places, but the MTV fuckasses didn't care about that because of all the colorful CG and a villain with fucking tentacles. I definitely preferred Begins over the first Spiderman, and I believe that the second Batman could easily be what Spides 2 was to Spides 1. Anyway, it always strikes me as odd that many people (Harry included) think the the FF are the greatest comic book heroes ever and that it's fucking sacrilige to fuck with them in any way. News for people - the FF SUCK and they always have. Batman pisses all over them. So do Xmen. When I first heard that FF was being made I knew instantaneously what kind of a movie it was going to be - a shit one that was more geared toward people who watch the motherfucking OC than comic book fans. This is also what X3 is going to turn into unless a fucking miracle happens. I have faith in Supes because of Singer and because he's making it mostly for the right reasons and with the right frame of mind. If a director sets out to make something that's simply a mind-numbing summer movie with the sole intention of getting asses in seats then it will blow.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:15 a.m. CST

    the second chance movement

    by liljuniorbrown

    Seriously,there hasn't been one Marvel comic adapted to film recently that couldn't be fixed in a sequel with better writting and or direction.The problem is they stray light years away from the source material and when it stinks up the box office they pull the plug. Look how long it took them to make Batman Begins,had Spiderman ,Xmen,and there sequels not came out to huge numbers in the time since Batman and Robin we would have never seen another Batman movie.And who's fault would it have been?The god awful director who made a movie so far away from the comics it was unreal.I read the other day where they ae adapting The Punisher into a tv series....with just a handful of minor changes such as moving him to New York and making it soley about him and maybe one Microchip type sidekick, violently kicking criminal ass every week it could be a highly rated fan of the comics dream come true. All i'm saying is if Avi Arad or who ever is the head man at Marvel wants another Spiderman type success on there hands they have got to do what one person posted earlier and stick with strong directors who will go by the book when it comes to the source.With the exception of organic webbing,and the Green Goblins costume Spiderman the movie and the comic were almost exactly the same thing. I know i'm beating a dead horse but i just don't want heros like Daredevil ,Hulk,Elektra,Punisher,FF,or god forbid Ghost Rider to never be on the big screen again.Hell,the casting in these movies is almost completely dead on as well just hire comic geeks to direct the damn things.Bryan Singer ,please don't waste anytime bringing Superman Returns to theaters.Prove my point.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:23 a.m. CST

    what's with the monkey comments?

    by Hiruu

    Is that comment just random? Hmmm.....let me think?

  • July 6, 2005, 8:23 a.m. CST

    what's with the monkey comments?

    by Hiruu

    Is that comment just random? Hmmm.....let me think?

  • July 6, 2005, 8:24 a.m. CST

    Harry, what did you think of the Oley Sassone/Roger Corman versi

    by Sith Witch

    I actually enjoy it for what it is. How does the new one compare against this?

  • July 6, 2005, 8:31 a.m. CST

    Good Lord

    by Mr. Shh

    Not since Godzilla has a bigtime production generated so little interest in me. Poor casting (except for Chiklis), less-than-arousing trailer, another thanks. This criticism of Harry has gone on far enough. If you don't like his reviews, go to another site. Why don't you go read Roger Ebert, whose view of movies has been so off kilter that his "thumb" direction has little significance anymore (Usual Suspects 1 1/2 stars?). A few words about CGI: CGI works when it is used within the framework of the movie, not when it becomes the movie. Some dork on here said they had to do shots at night because the CGI was so bad. First of all, CGI is done AFTER filming, secondly, they wouldn't change the entire timelime of the film is the CGI looked bad, thirdly, you are an idiot. There are directors that use CGI as a selling point, then there are those that use it to help tell the story. Just because a movie doesn't have CGI crammed down your throat every frame doesn't mean it isn't good.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:32 a.m. CST

    I'll just borrow the DVD

    by Drath

    I'm kinda interested in seeing the Torch and the Thing, but it sounds like most of the movie is underwhelming and at just an hour and a half, it sounds like something made for the tweens with ADD and not for people who've been around for more than a quarter of a century.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:33 a.m. CST

    In Other Words, It Sucked...

    by ZombieSolutions

    the only question left -- is it Corman suck, or Daredevil/Elektra suck? at least the Corman suck was funny. Daredevil/Elektra was the very bowels of suck -- no funny, just stinky mounds of putrid suckitude.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:41 a.m. CST

    Shan and a the WotW ending

    by DinoDeLaurentiis

    Shan... you got it alla wrong. The whole point a the film was a to show alla the action from a the point of view of a the Tom Cruise guy. So, a) his son, he canna show up atta the end, because once Tommy, he let him go, then we don' know what a happen to him after that, see? So, he coulda escape, but we don' see it. Maybe he go over the hill, and then think "Holy Crappa! I'ma gettin' outta here!" anna he run for his a life. b) we don' getta to see the aliens come a down with a the sniffles, a 'cos alla that, it happen offa the camera... we see what a Tommy see, so, by a the time he gets to the Boston, that's a the first a time he gets to see that the big robot, she's a sick. How long would it take a you to walk through the Connecticut? Prolly a week or something, no? Maybe a longer time, iffa you hide from a the ETs. c) Tommy, he tell that cute little bambino Dakota to sing nota to cover the sound, but a to give her somethin' else a to focus on while a he choke a crap outta the other guy... we hear a the struggle, and you know she do too, but she gotta focus onna the something else. Holy crappa, you guys are like a the, how you say? so critical! You no like a the Kong CGI, but what else a you want? Rick Baker inna the suit? I sell it to you cheap, good price... Goddamn know-it-all kids with a your IPods... but the Fantastico Foursome? I gotta give a you that one, she's a lookin' to be a the stinker!

  • July 6, 2005, 8:43 a.m. CST

    SUE STORM -- The Worst Hot Blonde Ever, and Here's Why...

    by ZombieSolutions

    everyone knows that hot chicks should be SEEN and NOT HEARD ('cept for fake, muffled/stuffed moans of pleasure and sucking sounds). Sue Storm, on the other hand, is a hot chick who can be HEARD but NOT SEEN! wtf?!?! theres some kind of twisted punishement in there for Reed "Dr. J.R. Bob Dobbs" Richards.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:50 a.m. CST

    Can't Wait To See This...This Winter Via NETFLIX OR... Fox,

    by jollydwarf

    If this does one tenth as well as all of the fucking oppressive tie-in marketing suggests it should (and why did the condom and male enhancement drug industries NOT capitalize on the various powers of the team?), then when you greenlight the sequel, all you need to pitch is this highest of 'high concepts': FANTASTIC FOUR VS. THE FAB FIVE. I mean, take those 'snappy' dialogue exchanges to the next level, girlfriend! "Flame on!" "You said it, bitch!"

  • July 6, 2005, 8:55 a.m. CST

    Here is how "Harry Math" works:

    by FluffyUnbound

    However much Harry likes a film, divide that amount by ten and that's the enjoyment you'll get out of it. Armageddon is 1/10th as good as Harry's review of it, TPM, AOTC and ROTS were 1/10th as good as Harry's review of them, etc. What you CANNOT do - CANNOT EVEN CONSIDER DOING - is trying to reverse the Harry Math. You can't say, "Harry hated a film X amount, I will only hate it X/10." That's not how it works. The Harry Math only makes a film worse, and never, ever, ever better. If Harry says a film is really bad but he still liked it a little bit, you can be pretty sure it's the worst film you'll see this year. Find me a review of a film Harry hated or panned that was actually a really good film, and I'll believe that the Harry Math can be reversed. Until then, on the basis of this review it looks like FF should have been called "Catwoman 2: Doctor Doom Electric Boogaloo".

  • July 6, 2005, 8:58 a.m. CST

    Cheers Fluffy

    by Ribbons

    It's no easy task making Ribbons laugh this early in the morning, but you have entertained Ribbons. "Harry Math." Ribbons shoot milk out of nose.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:59 a.m. CST

    WOTW's Ending in a Nutshell -- Scientology Tom and Dakota F.

    by ZombieSolutions

    wow. great movie, bad ending. the germ killa was fine (if rushed), but the "everything is AOK now!" fairy tale ending thing was abyssmal. blame "sentimental to a fault" Spielberg who just can't seem to be able to keep the darkness going. he always has to put the audiences to bed all snuggy and warm. too bad. said it before and i'll say it again -- it should've ended with Tom and Dakota standing in the middle of the ruined city, burning wrecks of Tripods around, the two of them survivors, but deeply traumatized, as the camera pulls back, you see construction and salvage teams starting the cleanup. cue voice over. roll credits. this way, you get the sense that something really, really bad and unerasable happened. people will put their lives back together, but they have been scarred, deeply, forever. the way it is in the film, it's as if nothing bad happened at all. too bad. not to Steve -- look, man, we can take it. bring on the dark and let it hover! life isn't about happy endings, it's about surviving bad endings and moving on. didn't Kubrick teach you anything?

  • July 6, 2005, 9 a.m. CST

    Torch or Pyro?

    by Trevor Goodchild

  • July 6, 2005, 9 a.m. CST

    Thing or Wolverine?

    by Trevor Goodchild

  • July 6, 2005, 9:01 a.m. CST

    Maybe I was wrong

    by kadath

    I thought this film would be an 'average' but enjoyable comic book movie. But if the Star Wars prequels' #1 cheerleader (hater of Blade 3, lover of Armageddon)hated it, it must be good, and could even be great! If you really want to see a top-notch property get ruined, wait for that John Carter movie...

  • July 6, 2005, 9:01 a.m. CST

    Invisible Girl or Jean Grey?

    by Trevor Goodchild

  • July 6, 2005, 9:01 a.m. CST

    the actors are all jerks...

    by G_R

    ...except for michael chiklis. i tried to meet them at an in store signing at a comic shop in NYC, and alba left after 2 minutes. i wrote about the whole experience and still managed to snag a bunch of pics.

  • . . . and Joaquin Phoenix is a fat bastard that was billed as Lief Phoenix. I wanted him to die so bad in that movie, when Newton's Laws were about to anally fuck him while he was attempting to do a spacewalk.

  • July 6, 2005, 9:03 a.m. CST

    Mr Fantastic or Proffessor X?

    by Trevor Goodchild

  • July 6, 2005, 9:03 a.m. CST

    Where's Tim?

    by The True Priapic

    So..exactly where was Tim at the end of the WOTW?Guess he doesn't have a place in this now reaquainted nuclear family?What was he fucking doing?Sitting in the house watching The Pitts?Oh..and jesus christ,that was one BOOOOORIIING film.The perf before us walked out in complete silence and the only voice heard was someone talking about the Kong trailer.Knew there was going to be a problem.Fanning is fucking creepy too,what was all that shit about crossing her arms?Spielberg trying to be cute in the midst of annhilation?That fucking HILARIOUS scene when Miranda Otto appears at the door got a bigger groan than when President Harrison Ford's pilot (Wiliam H.Macy?) said "It was you!!" to Viggo's brother from Indian Runner in that film with Ford as Prez of the ol' US.(And I was watching it in Boston so it wasn't english cynicism).Jesus,I was angry after that film.I'm guessing..and this is a push..that American viewers find more metaphor in it with Sept.11th?!Personally,taken as a summer action Blockbuster it fucking sucked.The aliens were FUCKING DREADFUL.God,Oh God..DREADFUL.Anyway... The FF.I was a MASSIVE fan of the Byrne era FF,I always remember that one page cliffhanger when Reed had tried to cure Ben and the machine blows up and through the mist Ben appears,with the line "I aint never gonna be the same again."AWESOME,true drama to a pre teen.I can remember playing hooky and travelling 40 miles to get the latest issues every month,the horror of finding a headline of "Byrne quits FF"(I think to go Hulking or was that from Alpha?).And I remember feeling gutted when Marvel had the whole anniversary issue deal (You remember around mutant massacre time,blah blah). Think it was FF 296 that was gonna have Mole man return,Ben go down to his lair as he was depressed and Byrne had hinted he would find his ultimate solution with something to do with Mole mans massive diamonds...and guess what?Byrne fucking did a runner through some politics at marvel leaving us with a truly dreadful double issue with a round-black-glasses wearing Grimm on the cover.Never found out what Byrne planned,one of the great Marvel mysteries to me...All this history I have(not as much as some,I grant)with FF,and I DONT WANT TO SEE THIS FILM.It looks shit,to waste Doom is herecy."THIS LAND IS MINE!!"that's how I feel about the big 4.I honestly thought that from the pre-film pics that they'd fucked up the torch and now it sounds like he's spot on.Oh,and the Thing strangely in that ad I saw with WOTW doesn't sound right?!Can't quite make out what's wrong.Harry's spot on with the Kirby look of Ben here,I think they'd probably thought they could deal with Ben's gradual transformation in sequels....Awwww,Fuck it.Let down with another summer...BRING ON WONKA!!!SAVE THIS SUMMER,DEPP!!! Oh,and by the way...we beat the fucking French to get the Olympics 2012.Hahahahahhah

  • July 6, 2005, 9:03 a.m. CST

    meant "Token BLACK guy"

    by krullboy


  • July 6, 2005, 9:04 a.m. CST

    Joaquin Phoenix-Joker. Eric Bana-American Oldboy remake.

    by Trevor Goodchild

  • July 6, 2005, 9:05 a.m. CST

    Hmmm, sounds like the problems with this film are EXACTLY like t

    by mortsleam

    Yet Harry loved that one. Hmmm, I say, hmmmm. By the by, Harry, lay off the exaggeration. If it looked like an episode of Seinfeld, it would be flat lit with floodlights and shot with three cameras on an obvious set in front of a live studio audience on video. And ya know, I'm just not getting that vibe from the promos. Of course it's not good. Fox fucked it over every chance they could get. But just because they didn't shoot your masturbatory fantasy of a 60's period piece come to life as directed by Peyton Reed doesn

  • July 6, 2005, 9:06 a.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    'Blade 3' did suck. I don't know what the hell you saw in it besides for Jessica Biel. 'Armageddon,' for all of its awfulness, is ten times the movie that 'Blade: Trinity' is. Senseless Robert McKay-style references to children do not a good movie make.

  • July 6, 2005, 9:08 a.m. CST

    Re: Running Out of the Comic Signing -- Put Yourself In Alba&#39

    by ZombieSolutions

    if you were an abusrdly beautiful girl and star of numerous geekart films and tv series, the LAST PLACE ON EARTH you would want to be is surrounded by sweaty, obese, obsessed, starlet stalker comic book nerds in the summer. the stench alone could kill an army of yaks. and as if she's gonna shake hands! they're still all covered with dried sperm! yucko!

  • July 6, 2005, 9:23 a.m. CST

    What's really sad is that Marv Wolfman has nothing better to

    by cookylamoo

    They way I see it. Marv must have been on the toilet and Harry was blocking the door to the stall.

  • July 6, 2005, 9:23 a.m. CST

    Here's why the WOTW ending is crap. It's stupidly illogi

    by Commando Cody

    Seriously, what the hell? Let me get this straight: you're telling me that aliens who are so technologically advanced that they can create towering machines that can gyroscopically walk on 3 legs perfectly...aliens who are so technologically advanced they have high energy destro-rays that can take down entire buildings versus our pee shooter guns...aliens who have mastered force shields to immune themselves from armed attack...aliens who can travel in either an intergalactic, interplanetary or interdimensional way to get into their parked, buried tripod ship...aliens who preplanned and did this a "million years ago" or whenever (meaning they were brilliant then and thus should only be brighter NOW)'re telling me that aliens who can do all that NEVER bothered to take a simple fucking ATMOSHPERIC SAMPLE of the place they intended to attack? You're telling me that BEFORE lightning bolting themselves to Earth, they DIDN'T bother to take a current, modern day sample of the very air they KNEW they'd be running around in? For crying out loud, technological "cavemen" that we are in comparison to them, even we know enough to do that with our own probes.

  • July 6, 2005, 9:30 a.m. CST

    No spoiler warning on this article, but we get one for every oth

    by Cletus Van Damme

  • July 6, 2005, 9:53 a.m. CST

    that IMDB page is fucking hilarious...


    ... what pathetic attempts at plant-ness... at least try a little subtletly, you morons.

  • July 6, 2005, 9:55 a.m. CST


    by ejcarter9

    Just tell me if this is the same kind of hypercriticism that proclaims Batman Begins as flawed or if it's a more general kind of criticism. Although I think the paragraph that says that if you love the FF you'll be disappointed is somewhat telling of that regard.

  • July 6, 2005, 9:58 a.m. CST

    Jessica Biel is a naughty girl

    by The True Priapic

    She was fucking dreadful in Blade 3.Nearly couldn't believe the lack of originality in the direction,was pissing myself when the obligatory shower scene came in.And I'm all for Jess in the buff but...for god's sake.The whole film was like a poor pilot for a tv show. Always fancied Charlize Theron as Sue Storm but don't agree with the Tim Robbins as Reed shtick. Anyone remember Johnny Storm having a Tasha Yar haircut?hahahaha the eighties were fucking awful. Lets be honest ...the fucking LAST comic you'd pick up these days is the FF.All comics are crap now.Is cerebus finished yet?If in doubt go back,re-read Watchmen,Dark Knight...(Oh Jeesus,don't get me started on that turd of a sequel)and pre -'85 marvel comics.Not the same league of creativity is it? Personally I have this horrible feeling I'm going to enjoy The Island.It's the only movie I expect fuck all from.Then again,the goddess Scarlett johansson is in it so there's something positive.She's damn tiny though,aint she?At least I don't have to put up with the Dunst pretending to be Mary Jane this year.And i think she's cute!!But absolutely no Mary Jane. Scarlett for Kitty Pryde.Dunst for the Traci Lords Story.'Nuff said

  • July 6, 2005, 10:11 a.m. CST

    Alicia Masters was ALWAYS boring.Frankie Raye for me

    by The True Priapic

    ...and Alicia cheated on Ben with Johnny!Fucking bitch.Sue was never really hot.Horrible haircuts.especially that mullet when she got feminized and became a WOMAN. Personally always fancied Nova... Eat shit Alicia.Now she's fucking changed colour as well as lovers!!That girl has to be stopped

  • July 6, 2005, 10:22 a.m. CST

    Re: FF Imdb reviews mostly Fox Plants or idiots

    by John-Locke

    If you are registered with Imdb you can see the other comments/reviews users have made. click on most of the Uber positive reviews username profile and you'll probably discover one of the following. They have registered within the last couple of days/weeks. The Only other film they have talked about is Passion of the Christ?. They give uber positive reviews to Electra and FF but give Sin City/WOTW 0 out of 10, coach carter comes up a few times.Plants or retards, you decide.

  • July 6, 2005, 10:27 a.m. CST

    Love the animation of Galactus tearing Arad a new one.

    by The Heathen

    I won't see FF in theaters probably, and if I do, it won't be the first weekend. I was going to swear it off completely, but that was mainly due to my anger of X3. I would have loved to have seen the Peyton Reed version.

  • July 6, 2005, 10:28 a.m. CST

    Another Off Topic WOTW Post...

    by ZombieSolutions

    perhaps the germ came into being AFTER the aliens put their INVID battlesuits (aka Tripods) way down near the earth's core? or perhaps their germ-detecto gear didn't pick up the germ? or perhaps Spielberg was trying to tap into the collective fever-dreamlike paranoia and fear of the new McCarthyism (it used to be "commies," now it's terrorists) regardless of the narrative hole in logic re: turns out the aliens were really dumb. still, WOTW works really well as an allegory for the brutal imperialist occupation of Vietna uh, i mean, Iraq at the hands of Halliburton-Dubya's Psychotic Khristian Oil Empire of Death (which also lends credence to the idea that although the aliens are really tough and techno-advanced, in the end they are also really incredibly dumb and shortsighted -- sorta like the US Axis of Oil). Tom and Dakota are an Iraqi family, and the Tripods are the US Axis of Oil forces -- aka brutal technocrats with superior weaponry out to harvest resources and murder thousands upon thousands of innocent women and children. but, hey, like Tim Robbins says, "history has proven all occupations fail eventually." yep! / btw, too bad FF is going to suck. i've pretty much resigned myself to this fact.

  • July 6, 2005, 10:34 a.m. CST

    And you rip the movie

    by AlwaysThere

    Didn't seet this shit coming...

  • July 6, 2005, 10:34 a.m. CST

    imdb comments are insulting

    by The Heathen

    Fuck you Fox. "Beyond great!" Fuckers.

  • July 6, 2005, 10:35 a.m. CST

    Coming From the same guy that loved 'LAME of the Dead'..

    by Graphix67

    So, from that review, Harry really, really hated it... BUT... it wasn't as bad as it could have been... *SIGH*... Real brave stance you took there Harry!

  • What Knowles is indirectly pointing out is the repeated failure of Marvel Films to live up to their potential, because Avi is a slave to his Toy Biz merchandise a producer, Arad deserves major kudos for being able to get a dozen green-lights in a row. That's impressive. The problem, is that he sacrifices so much in the process, instead of holding out for the best film possible...FOX was ready to write-off the FF which at the time, would have killed any chance of this film being made by any studio. For Marvel's fiscal lives, they can no longer go a year without a big film that can pimp toys via their ToyBiz branch. So Avi comprimised on a director, because TAXI was getting high scores in FOX's testing. As for the script, it was the grafting of the studio wanting a more X-Men/Spidey type model onto what they already had in place... Now, Avi is banking on a Hulk success -the studio loses on the film, but Marvel cleans up on merchandise, (Hulk Hands were the #1 selling toy for their year) a perfect world, Avi would actually give more of a shit about his properites and hold out for the best creative deal...for example, after The Incredibles came out, some reports talked of how pissed Avi was about the film because they stole FF's thunder. In truth, he was upset because if he had patience and let FF go into trunaround, the deal he could have gotten post-Incredibles would have been HUGE and a guarentee three-film greenlight. The Incredibles showed you can profit with a retro-superhero film, and every studio would have bowed at the opportunity to do a live-action Incredibles type film...this is the disappointment Harry talks about.

  • July 6, 2005, 10:40 a.m. CST

    Plant or Not? Yoooooou Decide......

    by Ribbons

    Here's a mere sample of the umm, foliage on display over at Enjoy: ------------ "I've been a huge Fantastic Four fan ever since I was a kid

  • July 6, 2005, 10:48 a.m. CST

    Thats odd...

    by FloppyStumps

    The first "first" I ever got was for something I DIDNT post on. I posted my "Ahem" topic for the Charlie and the Choc thing, but it never went through. I actually hate the sight of this film, and wish that it would've never been made. Just to clarify. Oh well, a first is a first.

  • July 6, 2005, 10:48 a.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    Sorry about getting carried away with the whole 'plant' thing. And I know they don't care that we know. But it's just so weird how hyperbolic they're being. It's like they're not even trying to sound unbiased.

  • July 6, 2005, 10:49 a.m. CST

    Okay, Harry...

    by Childe Roland

    ...since you're actually posting in this talkback, I'll address you directly instead of just critiquing your critique. I'm not sure whether it was my posts in other FF talkbacks (and thank you for noticing those, Ribbons) or if you actually dug up some old FF comics, but you seem to have come to the correct realization that The Thing was handled pretty well in this movie. So I have to wonder how, while doing whatever research led you to this conclusion, you missed the fact that Sue Storm started out as the Invisible GIRL. Again, this is an origin movie, and having her seem girlish and relatively ineffectual would be pretty consistent with the way she was played in the books at that point, wouldn't it? In fact, so would having all of the characters (with the exception of, perhaps, Doom) spout sheesy, punny dialogue. I understand your problems with the Doom character and the way he was handled. Hell, I share those problems. But the very fact that they so badly mishandled the villain - arguably the most important character in any movie - and still managed to make the movie entertaining overall should say something more than "shit-encrusted diamond" about the film as a whole, shouldn't it? I think that, deep down, you're still wanting to hate this movie (perhaps to uphold some measure of "I told you so" cred) despite the fact that you obviously enjoyed multiple aspects of it. Try divorcing yourself from your preconceived (and, in some cases, erroneous) notions of what the FF are supposed to be and look back at the film on its own merits, without that lexicon of information and misinformation. Was it watchable? Did parts make you tingle in funny places? I know there's a mostly objective (with Geek value added) critic in there somewhere beneath the elitist Comic Book Guy parody of a persona that sometimes dominates your reviews. Let him out so he can enjoy some of the respect he deserves.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:06 a.m. CST

    You think that's a plant, Ribbons? This guy is a redwood co

    by FluffyUnbound

    Review by "Big Unit": "An outstanding effort, Marvel does it again! This movie was fun yet it had grit, heart, and amazing action. The characters, effects, and story were all beyond great. Director Tim Story displays an amazing vision. He manages to keep the story intense and flowing as all the while it builds for what is probably the greatest showdown in comic adaptation film history. Spider-Man vs Doc Ock has nothing on this showdown. Story also manages to deliver a little bit of everything

  • July 6, 2005, 11:13 a.m. CST


    by The True Priapic

    Childe,I think the main problem is the 'missed opportunity' situation.Essentially,there's no need to begin the film as the comics do.The 'Girl/Woman' thing just doesn't matter,it's just that fans of the comic books wanted a film with at least a little depth added with the latent humour of the characters.Most of the talkbacks I see here that ring true of real fan feeling is one of sadness that something so cool is now a fucking pepsi max advert with a silly villian(something Doom really wasn't overall comic-wise).Ah well.... Now here's the thing where the anger comes from..the imdb reviews are astonishing.Absolutely astonishing.This is fox's Damage Limitation plan...Jesus Christ you've got to take a look to believe the shit on this thing.WOTW 0 out of 10??I didn't like that piece of shit but it's worthy of a 5 or so for the fucking cash plowed into the hype machine.Muggin's malone here bought it and saw it!! Oh,and Land of the Dead must be the most Zombie free Romero film I've ever seen and ...yup....BORING.Guess who gets Hopper...oooh,oooh it wouldn't be cholo and Big daddy would it?Am a dead movie fan but this was poooor.Maybe repeat viewing on Duh-vu-duh. Oh and by the way everyone...I think Harry's given up......... I'm going to watch those cunts on Big Brother UK.Bunch of cunts the lot of them.Check it out american friends,see why we english hate ourselves.The countrys in a fucked state...the olympics 2012 is going to be a joke.The fucking underground doesn't work at the best of times and the night buses?Yeah,riiiiiigghht...I live in London and I'M FUCKING NOT GOING TO USE 'EM!! Then again,at least Paris didn't win...hahahahaha.Shave those armpits,ladies.hahahahah

  • July 6, 2005, 11:28 a.m. CST

    So much happens while I sleep...

    by MasterWhedon

    I have a feeling I'm going to completely agree with Harry's review. I've been giving the film the benefit of the doubt, but nothing I've seen makes me get lost in the excitement the way I did for ROTS, Batman Begins or WOTW. It looks like a bland movie that I'll eventually own on DVD. And PS, I own the Criterion Collection version of Armageddon.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:31 a.m. CST

    And HEADGEEK, sir...

    by MasterWhedon

    ...if it wouldn't be too much trouble--if say this with a great deal of respect for the site and (most of) your reviews--could you PLEASE have someone do a once-over on your reviews to touch up your grammar? I know it's a stupid, midly-pretentious nitpick, but some of those sentences up above are just clusterfucks that should've been caught.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:33 a.m. CST

    Of course, I need someone to touch up mine too...

    by MasterWhedon evidenced by my last post with the "if say" and the "midly-pretentious." Just saying, I don't get my quotes put on the covers and booklets of DVDs. Not yet, at least.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:38 a.m. CST

    On imdb...

    by Childe Roland

    ...I see your point, Priapic. Those are pretty shameless plants, but not much worse than Harry's needlessly negative spin on what seems to be a movie he enjoyed seeing. Not having seen the movie yet, and basing my critique of his critique solely on my experience of other comic movies and the FF comic books I've read (origin to mid-1990s), I find his bashing of Alba's performance mind boggling. He's criticizing her for things the writers didn't give her character. There isn't one comment on her actual performance in his review. Even his harp on the "fully invisible" elements of her character are based on what he would have rather seen them do (and he seems pretty pleased with the depiction of her force field powers). Harry's take on Doom, I get - and I don't doubt I'll share it after reading a number of more objective reviews (despite thoroughly enjoying McMahon in Nip/Tuck). But Harry's criticisms of the film's production values seem like selective reaches. What he describes in terms of sets and cinematography sounded largely like scenes and sequences from the first X-Men film, which fans largely embraced despite some comic inconsistencies and less-than-fully-realized characters (Cyclops, anyone?). The difference here is that Harry came out well in advance of FF condemning everything about this film and now seems to be in the awkward position of having to tell us he actually liked it while still maintaining that he was right about everything he thought would suck (except Chiklis' Thing, of course, which he now agrees didn't need to be rocky or CGI after all). I understand being angry that the movie isn't exactly what current fans of the book as currently published wanted (as someone who hasn't read the FF in nearly ten years, I rather like the idea of an origin movie that resets things a bit for non-continuity buffs while remaining pretty faithful to at least the heroes' established origins). You have to expect a certain number of hype-filled planty reviews for any picture, but they don't make the actual film any worse by their existence. Nor does the concept of a more perfect film that doesn't exist.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:39 a.m. CST

    So we're "lucky" because it only realy realy sucks, when it

    by minderbinder

    Gee, that makes me feel better.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:23 p.m. CST

    Perspective -- it's a good thing

    by lettersoftransit

    Everybody -- including Harry -- looks at a property from their own POV. Personally, I grew up reading the Kirby issues and was never able to enjoy a single issue beyond those because, to me, it had to look like Kirby and sound like Lee. Obviously, not everyone felt that way because the book still sells. Going into a summer production, Fox had a lot of things to deal with, not the least of which being that much of what worked in the FF had just been done in the Incredibles. There is no doubt the studio trimmed the edges on the source material to make it more palatable for kids. But that may end up being a saving grace for the franchise. My kids love Star Wars but didn't want to see Anakin sell his soul and murder children. They like Batman but didn't want to watch this newer, darker version (And one nephew who did see it came away asking to watch the old TV series). They like alien movies but don't want to see the grisly images in War of the Worlds. So, coming into a summer that I thought was going to be packed with great moments sharing movies with my kids has come down to this: They are excited about seeing the Fantastic Four. Fox may have stumbled into classic counter-programming here. My kids never heard of the FF prior to the ads they see all over nickelodeon, but now they want to see and they `come to me and tell me (as if I didn't know) that the Incredibles ripped off the Fantastic Four. End of story will probably be that my kids will enjoy the film more than me (and I've been wanting an FF film since I was younger than them). If that takes a property little known outside the comics world and turns it into a viable franchise that I can hope to see improve with the next film... well, then it may not be all it could have been, but at least it's better than it not happening at all. And one of the other is generally all you can expect from the industry these days.

  • July 6, 2005, 12:35 p.m. CST

    What Harry is pointing out is:

    by Juggernaut125

    He didn't hate the movie! How many times does he actually have to say it before you fucks actually hear him? Yes, it has faults. Yes, the screwed up the Dr. Doom character. (To make a good FF movie, base it on the FF characters. But they need to have a definite threat to face.) Yes, Alba was wrong casting as Sue Storm. (What has she actually done that proves she has any kind of range?)And so on. And so on. For all of you geeks out there that come to this site and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag and nag ang nag, how can you keep posting the same shit over and over. "Harry hated the movie because he's an elitist when it comes to the source material..." "Harry's review is biased because he didn't get any kick backs." etc. Harry simply thought the movie was "meh"... Movies can be meh. Not great. Not awful... Just meh. It happens. Live with it.

  • July 6, 2005, 1 p.m. CST

    Quit saying "it was good for what it was"

    by OBSD

    That's like saying "This lump of shit is know, for a lump of shit." Why are you eating a lump of shit in the first place? Why don't you say "Thanks for the shit, but I'm not spending my money on it. I'll wait until the steak comes around and eat that instead." If you keep doing that long enough, they'll take the lump of shit off of the menu. And thus endeth the analogy.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:07 p.m. CST

    Wow, Harry. This sounds as disappointing as Spider-Man 2.

    by Serious Black

    Although at least that one did have some decent special effects. I'll still see this, though, as the trailers look good and I have no vested interest in the characters nor preconceived notions of who they are going into the film. It sounds like Harry's FF baggage was a partial reason for his lack of enjoyment of the movie.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:07 p.m. CST

    I love it when Harry throws his two cents in on the talkback...

    by sith-vol

    ...and as for Van Helsing VS Fantastic Four, Van Helsing has Kate Beckinsale and I'd take Kate Beckinsale over Jessica Alba any day of the week...and twice on Sunday oh yeah.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:11 p.m. CST

    Way to proceed from some false conclusions...

    by Childe Roland

    ...there, Juggernaut (an apt handle considering the way you kind of bashed clumsily through your argument). How can you say Alba was wrong for Sue Storm based on her acting ability? What kind of range and depth, precisely, would be required of an actress to play a young woman who discovers she can turn invisible and who is part of an ensemble cast? Harry's early criticisms of her in the part were all about her appearance (specifically hair color) age (which he and others were way off base in criticizing considering this is an origin film) and hinted-at ethnicity (something about her being too naturally tan)being wrong. He has yet to point to one instance where her acting ability or lack thereof hurts this film. And for OBSD and anyone else saying "I'll pass on the shit and wait for the steak," you're also basing your decision on a review from a guy who, at worst, called this a shit-covered diamond. Assuming he's being objective (and I think we all know he's not), wouldn't a diamond be worth scraping off a little shit to enjoy? Here's an original idea: See the movie and decide for yourself if it's shit or not. But be warned, folks like me are going to ask why you thought it was shit and we expect reasonable answers if you expect us to take your opinion seriously.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:16 p.m. CST

    When is cheapskate Avi going to pull out his wallet and hire a r

    by Serious Black

    The only thing cooler than a Fincher Marvel movie would be a James Cameron superhero movie, but I don't think that will ever happen. You can't tell me that Fincher would prefer to make silly garbage like 'Panic Room' rather than a big comic book superhero movie. He would've done a awesome version of Daredevil or Punisher or Hulk or Elektra. He might have even made Ghost Rider look good, although that character is just so intrinsically ridiculous that I shudder to think of what we're going to see on screen. C'mon, Avi, just hire him, already.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:35 p.m. CST

    Amongst the things I Loved and Disliked about WOTW...

    by Cpt Kirks 2pay

    ...I was a bit dissapointed when we finally got to see the Aliens. Not that original looking (faces at least) and not that scary. Especially after the darkness and Evil we had succesfully been presented with up to this point, those Aliens shoulda been a lot more terrifying. Personally one of the most terrifying things I have seen on film, or can dream up in my own imagination, is actually seeing Aliens that want to suck out your brains, actually appear in your own house or back garden, or even in a field as you drive down the road somewhere. So, and consdidering this is Spielberg, or rather trying to be CLASSIC Spielberg, this shoulda hit the bullseye a lot more. As a result, it brings the terror level down a lot more for the film, for everything that you've seen before and after this point. Maybe it's because it's a PG-13 and this prevented Steven making them a lot more horrific than they so easily could have been, but heh, maybe that's me making bullshit excuses. At least they looked a lot more real than in other films.

  • July 6, 2005, 1:50 p.m. CST


    by Hypnos99

  • July 6, 2005, 2:03 p.m. CST

    Harry, you are still my boy but...

    by Lost Skeleton

    what the fuck ever! All you naysayers, shitters and haters were poo-pooing this flick from the beginning and now the general consensus so far is that kids and people who didn't read the comics will love it...well guess what...that is like 90% of the world's population so I think Fox will be happy. I wanted a true FF movie too but I think FF is going to make some coin which is all Fox cares about obviously.

  • The villains were very well done in the X-Men movie, although the "let's turn humans into Mutants" plot was silly. No way in hell were they as mangled as Dr. Doom seems to be, and if you don't see it then you don't know the original character. This is worse than Darth Vader's "Nooooooo!" in Episode 3. Frankly, the iconic cinematic villains are taking a real beating this year. Dr. Doom is ruined, Vader got upstaged by a geezer with leprosy and a coughing cgi skeleton, the Martians aren't even IN The War of the Worlds. And I'm still surprised Bat fans aren't complaining that they killed Ra's Al-Gul in Batman Begins! At least the Scarecrow was cool.

  • July 6, 2005, 2:34 p.m. CST

    7. Harry Knowles' Paycheck....the marketing people should kn

    by Enter4None

    Thank you Harry! Since we all know your initial thoughts about any movie are always based on how much the marketing people sucked your knob, I can safely skip your monologue and enjoy FF4...

  • July 6, 2005, 2:36 p.m. CST

    Boycott this movie! You'll hate yourself in the morning!

    by Zardoz

    If it opens big and makes any money the suits are gonna think it means the geeks approve of the raping of the source material. Don't give them the satisfaction; Go see "War of the Worlds" again, a vastly superior movie...

  • July 6, 2005, 2:46 p.m. CST

    "The villains were very well done in the X-Men movie"

    by The Heathen

    Sabretooth anybody? Well at least he didn't just grunt and say, "BOMB."

  • July 6, 2005, 2:46 p.m. CST

    The bottom line is - screw up Dr. Doom and you've screwed up

    by Movietool

    Everything else I've seen/read/heard as far as changes go are forgivable - but turning Victor Von Doom into a lovestruck Donald Trump/Lex Luthor? Blech. No interest in seeing this. I'd love to get my hands on the original script Harry keeps going on about. Is it out there anywhere?

  • July 6, 2005, 2:49 p.m. CST

    Magneto WAS handled well though.

    by The Heathen

    As far as Dr. Doom, Ed Brubaker is doing a mini on him soon, so that will help heal the wound of the movie characterization (until the DVD is released that is.)

  • July 6, 2005, 2:51 p.m. CST

    By the way, thanks for dropping by for no fucking reason to spoi

    by cookylamoo

    Do you do this at all the non-related threads?

  • July 6, 2005, 2:52 p.m. CST

    Childe Roland - you are so off the reservation on this...

    by genro

    you really, *really* need to consider the motivations of the some others involved i.e - studio execs and agents. Let me shed some light - In Spidey 2, do you know why Maguire had the mask off for the majority of the time he was in costume? It wasn't a creative decision. It was a mandate from his agent, agreed to by the studio. The spin? Because it was "too hard" to convey Tobey's emotions under the mask. But the real reason, as reported in the LAT, was because Tobey's peeps felt the costume's-image was overshadowing Maguire's image as the star of the, how does this relate to the FF? If you read articles from the FX people involved, you'd see they were *consciously* trying to make the actor's appearance more predominant when using their powers. In other words, this wasn't some "Sue's unsure of her powers" bullshit, but a placation to the actor negotiated by their agent and then handed down from the studio. I know for a bona fide-fucking-fact that was the decision behind the Thing make-up, and not some "early Kirby" wishful thinking. Chiklis's peeps wanted him to be recognizable under it at all costs. This is the same bullshit logic that decided the final look of ILM's Hulk, and the as to why Wolverine doesn't wear a mask...shit compromises that the producers must try and justify at any cost. I'm sure if Avi had read your "early Kirby" line when the design first slipped, he would have been spouting that off in every interview. Hell, I bet he starts using it as one of the many excuses he'll have as to why things went wrong...And this is the shit Harry knows also. So when he walks into a flick like FF, he sees a movie directed by a guy with no fundamental grasp as to what has made these characters survive for decades in other formats, a producer whose more focused on tie-in products and merchandise sales than the final product, and a studio looking to make some return on a decade old investment...this is a product, through and through.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:07 p.m. CST

    Harry, you just said it Sucked. All of that adds up to Suck.

    by DOGSOUP

    There is no ItMostly sucks but LOOK! There's a few redeeming spots! No no no. It sucks. Plain and simple. Jay Sherman style...

  • July 6, 2005, 3:10 p.m. CST

    The 'human language'?

    by JediStryker

    Is English now the official language of Earth?

  • July 6, 2005, 3:11 p.m. CST

    genro, I'm not sure how...

    by Childe Roland

    ...Chiklis' agent being happy that you can tell who he is under the Thing make-up changes the fact that he looks exactly like those first drawings of the character from Kirby. And I'm really not sure how Alba's not being partially visible, as Harry would have preferred to see her, supports your theory that the agents deictated the way the characters were portrayed. While we're at it, Wolverine has appeared without his mask at least as frequently as he has with it in the comics since the character's introduction in Giant Size X-Men #1, so how does mentioning that character's maskless movie look have any bearing on this conversation? While some of your facts concerning the ulterior motives of Hollywood movie types may be accurate in terms of how decisions get made in these movies, it doesn't change the facts that: 1.) This movie got the look of the Thing dead-on-balls accurate if you're going for his origin appearance (something the Hulk didn't manage because the title character didn't start out grey), 2.) Jessica Alba is definitely the right age and, with hair color, the right type to play an origin-era Sue Storm (even if the movie skips over calling her "The Invisible Girl" for PC reasons) and 3.) by Harry's own admission, a lot of the super-powerdy goodness that we all wanted from these characters came out just fine on the big screen (unrealistic comparisons to "The Incredibles" - an ANIMATED film that raped the premise of the FF without the constraints of effects budgets or the pesky physical limitations of actors - aside). So you're saying what, exactly? That because these critical elements of the film were gotten right by accident they should be disregarded and the film should be considered an utter failure? Just looking for the smallest hint of logic in your argument. And, lastly, what "reservation" specifically do you presume I belong on and why is it bad for me to be off of it? Are you afraid I might sell you some blankets infected with objectivity?

  • July 6, 2005, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Sorry About the Spoilers that Everybody Already Knows Who Read t

    by ZombieSolutions

    like how i've resigned myself to FF's certain suckiness; how i ultimately understand (and empathize with) how Alba would run away from fat, sweaty, creepy comic book guys in the sweltering NYC summer; and how Sue Storm represents the worse thing ever in an atractive woman -- a hot chick who can be HEARD, but NOT SEEN (inverting the preferable SEEN, but NOT HEARD maxim we associate with the fairer sex). sorry if i ruined WOTW for anyone, but seriously, you didn't know the basic story? the surprise isn't in the outline, it's in how terrifying and cool it is for 2 hours or so before it all crumbles into meaninglessness in, like, the last 5-10 minutes. up until the typically Spielbergian ending, it was great. i can only imagine how amazing Spielberg would be if he dropped the aching sentimentalism and nicey nicey poo, and got with the brutal honesty. he could be as good as Kubrick if only he'd stop trying to send us all into a diabetic coma.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:17 p.m. CST

    Stan Lee said about The Incredibles: "I feel like I wrote it." D

    by Ted Striker

    As we all know, it all comes down to the script. I'm sure it's easy for Stan Lee to want to take credit for the Incredibles -- though I'm pretty sure he'll stear clear of this FF movie... The Incredibles were great because of Brad Bird's great script and direction, which is what sounds like is sorely lacking in this Fantastic Four adaptation...

  • July 6, 2005, 3:23 p.m. CST


    by calami-shami

    this movie will probably make wnough money through its world wide run and dvd sales that theyll make a sequel. Which we'll be just as mundane as this movie and theres nothing that can be done about it. Avi will not be denied!

  • July 6, 2005, 3:24 p.m. CST

    Stan Lee Felt Like He Wrote all of Kirby's and Ditko's S

    by ZombieSolutions

    he felt it so strongly, in fact, that he stole their ideas and copyrighted them himself! now that's conviction! Excelsior, bub! 'Nuff said.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:24 p.m. CST

    by calami-shami

    whos the guy with the thing hands that harry gives head to up there? lol

  • July 6, 2005, 3:36 p.m. CST


    by TedSallis

    By the way Genie, I'm not to into pot, but, I do drink my share of coffee.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:41 p.m. CST

    The only person

    by Hamish

    who has posted anything on this page who doesn't suck balls is Harry. The guy expresses grave misgivings for months about the film treatment of a comic property he loves, and you all give him shit. Then he reviews the film and gives it a less than glowing but not totally dismissive review, and you still rag on him. I give up. You can all spend the rest of your lives watching pap like Are We There Yet. It's what you deserve.

  • That's Marvel Studios CEO Avi Arad being eaten by Harry dressed up as Galactus (silversurfer/F4 villain), -if you go to and scroll down to "The Doom-Defying, Two-Fisted Marketing of Fantastic Four" article ( you'll read that Arad insists he's "won over" the fans (being a talking head and going down spin alley if you ask me), he goes as far as saying: "Even Fat Harry has to admit there's something cooking," (with regards to the F4 movie). The animation in the corner is a very cool reply to that.... ...And I'm the biggest dork for knowing that.

  • July 6, 2005, 3:56 p.m. CST

    woah woah woah......wait a minute.

    by slappy jones

    what the fuck is wrong with piranha 2? it had FLYING KILLERS dude.....FLYING fucking KILLERS!!!

  • July 6, 2005, 4:20 p.m. CST


    by docfalken

    I think you are right about the spin doctors we've got in Talkback right now. The amount of new TB accounts coming from PR agency IP addresses is on the rise. ;) ROTFL. ... Groan. If any of them are reading though, please have the Burger King toys be better for the next film you put out. My kids were very disappointed in what they received in their Mighty Kids meal. Pretty big fall-off from the amazing Star Wars toys.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:30 p.m. CST

    "Magneto's a poor man's Doom"

    by oisin5199

    Are you kidding me? I was a FF fan as a kid, but X-Men as an adult. I just don't see how Doom is remotely interesting as a villain, besides as a cartoon. He might have a backstory (I admit I'm mostly unfamiliar with it) but what are his motivations now? He just seems to want power as an end in itself. Whereas Magneto has a definite social and political agenda, an interesting back story and more personality shifts than a schizophrenic. The various incarnations of Magneto are fascinating as are his ideological battles with Xavier, which the movies captured pretty well, I think. There are a few things that make me curious about Doom (I remember the scene in the 9/11 Spiderman in which Doom cried over the destruction of the Towers - I didn't quite get it though, because I thought Doom wanted to destroy NYC on more than one occasion. But I did read that issue totally out of context). And a final comparison: Alba couldn't hold a candle to Paquin or even Halle Berry. I always thought Dark Angel was pretty boring. And she's good in mostly visual stuff like Sin City. She certainly is not a high quality actor. Anna won an Oscar when she was a kid and I think she's pretty good. You'd think an Oscar would guarantee something with Halle, but...I think she's a good actress but terribly miscast and out of her element in the X-Men films. Anyways, I still say this movie will be fun and a very different experience than X-Men.

  • July 6, 2005, 4:40 p.m. CST


    by calami-shami

    HOLY SHIT! Thats fucking he-larry-us! I propose that from now on that little animation box be dedicated to the crushing of that nutsack's ego! Whats the next Avi screw up coming out? Ghostrider? I dont care if it sucks or not i want to see Harry possesed by the spirit of vengenance choking that ass with his evil hell chains...from hell!

  • July 6, 2005, 4:50 p.m. CST

    Childe Roland - subjective opinion versus facts

    by genro

    You think the Thing design looks like Kirby's first illustrations? I think he's not even close, as Kirby's inspiration was the clay Golem. Grimm looks like pumpkin-colored clay in the first issue. Is there a passing resembelance between the movie design and some of the earlier issues? Yes, in overall mass and size compared to the others. But the face is nowhere close to what Kirby created in any issue. If you've read any of the articles with Arad, Story, the FX people, etc, you'd see they were going for a melting of 40 years i.e - they weren't focusing on the origin appearances but a broader sense of the character. Alba has talked in a few interviews about how she knows she looks nothing like the character, but that she's going more for "the spirit" of Sue Storm. In other words, "I'm dying my hair blonde for a big paycheck". As for Thing, how can someone with such understanding *not* wonder why the most recognizable character of the group does not resemble the iconic image three generations have come to know over the years? They never used this psuedo "early Thing" look on any cartoon. In truth, Kirby continually changed a characters appearance over issues until he found what he liked. Any retconning of Thing's look was not King's intention and a byproduct of current fanboyy writers, (the supposed "gray Hulk", as perfect example). So, is this a budget issue? On a 130+ million film? Corman's people were closer to the look with a budget made of pennies and coupons. and I'm not going to retread the Wolverine point as you missed the correaltion between its decision and Spider-Man 2 entirely. Suffice to say, these are not artistic choices in any way, shape or form, but negotiated decisions by agents, producers and execs. You want to believe otherwise, go ahead. But realize the major flaw to your argument is the assumption the Thing design was going to mutate over the movie sequels into the standard Thing look. No one has ever alluded to that, and it actually goes against studio practices for heavy prosthetic work. An FF sequel would use the molds made from the first film. The only change would come in color, not design.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:02 p.m. CST

    Armageddon was awesome

    by GiftedInThePants

    It was awesome.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:10 p.m. CST

    Armageddon was Aaaawwwful....

    by Cpt Kirks 2pay

    ...Deep Impact was far more superior. That sums you lot up in one.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:13 p.m. CST

    Harry go back to Romero and kiss his ass some more.

    by screenplaywriter

    Or hell go to a Scientologist rally with Tom Cruise. Because frankly I hope this movie kicks ass. Isn't all comic-book dialogue hoaky and written poorly? Sure, Alba can't act, but you don't go to see an Alba film for her acting, you go for her T&A. And you have Chiklis a devoted "F4" fan and Chris Evans who looks like he'll be a show-stealing wisecracker like Ryan Reynolds was in "BLADE 3" which I might add he was the best part in it. I mean yeah I don't like that Tim "Barbershop" Story took on the reigns to this, but it looks good in my opinion and I'm going to gladly go see it, because frankly I'm a glutton for comic books and comic book films and you may write it off as another "HULK" or "DAREDEVIL" but to me those movies were good and I think a majority of fans would agree with me, some won't, but the rest of us will. I think sometimes you just write reviews to appeal to yourself and not to the fans and your readers and for that I say Moriarty and Quint are the better reviewers here.

  • July 6, 2005, 5:19 p.m. CST


    by halfmadjesus

    The thing is, under the guidance of a crappy writer, Doom is just as boring and one-note as you say - a tin-plated despot with a desire to conquer the world. *YAWN* But have a look at Byrne's "This Land is Mine!" like someone else mentioned above, or any of the stuff Stan & Jack did with him, and you'll see the character is very complex. Doom is ruled by the twin forces of ego and vanity - all his hang-ups stem from those aspects of his personality. Furthermore, he's not a totally 100% evil guy. Like what Claremont and other writers did with Magneto later on, Doom has sizeable grey areas to his motivations. He wants to conquer the world because he wants to end suffering. Doom believes he's the best candidate for the job, basically, the most fit to rule (ego). He'd make the world a paradise in his mind, and all everybody has to do is give up their pesky freedoms. That's an interesting character, in my opinion - very relevant to things going on in the world today, BTW. Magneto BECAME an interesting character over time, but he started out as a thin mutant copy of Doom, and most of the complexities he's developed were borrowed from Doom by the likes of Claremont. Anyway, Latveria, castles, black sorcery, Doombots, an armored suit (not armor skin), ranting monologues, insidious deathtraps, deep pathlogical hatred of Reed Richards, referring to himself in the 3rd person - I'd have kept all that stuff, kept Doom OFF the space station, and trotted it out there for the moviegoing public to enjoy. I figure nobody would have considered it "silly" or "dated," either. Like most things that stay true to time-tested, beloved comic books, a larger audience discovering Doom for the first time would have eaten it all up with a spoon, I reckon.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:02 p.m. CST

    Interesting use of the words...

    by Childe Roland

    ..."fact" and "opinion" genro, as you throw a lot of the latter around posing as the former. You and I can argue until we're blue in the fingers about what might or might not happen with sequels, but you're being deliberately obtuse if you don't believe Chiklis' Thing strongly resembles The Thing as originally drawn by Kirby. I've never said I believe htis was the look they were deliberately going for or the result of an artistic choice. I haven't addressed the film makers' motives at all (you seem to be pretty obsessed with them, though). I'm saying, and a lot of people on these very boards (including Harry) agree with me, that Chiklis' Thing, whether on purpose or by accident, looks like Kirby's Thing and that, as a long-time fan, I appreciate that in an origin movie. I'm also saying that Jessica Alba - young, cute and blonde - works for me visually and conceptually as an origin-era Invisible Girl/Woman. What specifically about her look in the role bothers you? Is it because in today's comics she's depicted as 30-something and a mom? What about the Ultimate FF comic (which I don't read, but don't pretend doesn't exist, either). SHe's pretty young there, too, I understand. COme to think of it, isn't Doom in this movie pretty close in concept to the way he's portrayed in Ultimate FF? You bluster and stomp and cry with a lot of indignant I-know-the-FF-and-how-movies-are-made-better-than-you-do bullshit, but what it boils down to is that you like your Thing extra chunky and only your opinion matters. Well, that's fine for you. But keep in mind that an opinion expressed loudly and frequently is no more a fact for its volume or everpresence. And try seeing a movie before declaring it crap. I certainly am not saying this movie is great. I haven't seen it. But after reading Harry's "review," I am even more optimistic about it than I was (mostly because he had to admit he kind of liked it). You should try some of the objectivity and maybe some restraint until all the facts are in (again, try seeing the movie). I promise, it won't make your world implode.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:49 p.m. CST

    WOTW Spoiler

    by flossygomez

    Yes, the ending really is a suprise to those who don't fucking read. Get literate people.

  • July 6, 2005, 6:53 p.m. CST

    Back on Subject

    by flossygomez

    I really never expected anything great from fantastic four, especially since I believe Galactus a far superior villain to old one note Doom. But, let's face would be goofy to bring him and silver surfer into an origin movie. Alba was badly miscast, too bad Charlize Theron was shooting Aeon Flux. Reed Richards should have been played by someone about 10 years older.

  • July 6, 2005, 7:05 p.m. CST

    Latinas by nature can be bitchy and controlling.

    by Orionsangels

    I'm Latino and i'm not gonna defend the casting of alba. Her casting makes no sense, other than they wanted hot exotic booty. Sue Storm should have been a white woman, a smart white woman.

  • July 6, 2005, 7:15 p.m. CST

    A movie so

    by Techtite

    I think what many people seem to be ignoring is the almost complete impossibility it was to bring Fantastic Four to the movie screen, as a live-action movie, in any form. The Thing: a walking hunk of rock. Even if they had the best CGI, how do you actually, authentically, believably, make rock seemingly

  • July 6, 2005, 7:31 p.m. CST

    Comic Movies

    by DBlunt

    What I don't understand about these movies based on comics is its the one time that Hollywood has a heap of material to go through in order to make a script. I mean, they couldn't find one compelling story out of all the FF comics in 50-odd years? One story that would translate well to the medium of cinema. In my mind, they should just quickly gloss over the "making of" the super heroes or allude (sp?) to it only as most superhero origins are pretty weak as they were done, like, 60 years ago. I have yet to see a comic movie with an actually strong story line with the exception of X-Men - or Sin City. Even Spider Man, while well done, was pretty damn weak, story-wise.

  • July 6, 2005, 7:36 p.m. CST

    It's sad, really

    by Kauzi Sezso

    but, that's why God created DVD. Maybe there'll be something good on there....

  • July 6, 2005, 7:46 p.m. CST

    dudes, its from the director of taxi! of course it sucks!

    by Filthy Fox

    nobody can be dissapointed with this film

  • July 6, 2005, 8:08 p.m. CST

    I didn't like X-men or the Spiderman movies or the Hulk. Bat

    by Orionsangels

    Superman I is still the best superhero movie ever made! Magical I tell ya

  • July 6, 2005, 8:30 p.m. CST

    I agree that F4 will be fun but...

    by andrew coleman

    So will Stealth and the Cave but will you guys defend those movies when they come out? I doubt it.

  • July 6, 2005, 8:34 p.m. CST

    Drath: "And I'm still surprised Bat fans aren't complain

    by Triumph poops!

    That's because all Bat fans know going in that one of the core concepts behind Ras al Ghul as a character is his perpetual regeneration baths where he comes back to life again and again and again. So given that Nolan and Goyer from Day One were making such a big deal about being true to all the characters and the Bat mythos, most Bat fans assume Liam Neeson is still out there waiting to come back...again. Besides, even if it wasn't about Nolan and Goyer, we're still talking about Hollywood here. You know, Hollywood -- where no one ever truly dies so long as the box office warrants it and the actor's paycheck clears the bank!

  • July 6, 2005, 8:39 p.m. CST

    As for Alba as Sue Storm, anyone talking about her "acting" is n

    by Triumph poops!

    You know why I'll be there to see this? Because she's supposed to be a hot, young Susan Storm in love with an older guy in Reed Richards. And tell me that ANY of you wouldn't want to be dating this (remember to take out the spaces -- I didn't want to stretch out the talback with a long net address). Here you go. Cute and sexy as can be! Lust away! End of Alba debate! http:// /films_2005/fox/fantasticfour /ff-22.html

  • July 6, 2005, 9:38 p.m. CST

    The best "plant" review ever on this site was

    by slappy jones

    ..the guy who wrote in with a review of the longest yard ages ago and used the phrase "america is about to fall in love with a bunch of convicts" ..or something like that. that was fantastically planty!!!who talks like that in real life aside from studio execs and the trailer voice man. That was great.

  • July 6, 2005, 9:51 p.m. CST

    Harry sounds right

    by Homer Sexual

    I have dissed some of Harry's reviews because they tended to talk about his childhood years, or whatever, instead of the movie. Also, Harry gives good reviews to a lot of crap, so I don't trust him when he loves something. But when a guy who loves everything says something sucks, and stays on topic and even gives cogent reasons. Well, I have been waiting for this and hoping for the best. But the only hope is that this is fun garbage. That's the BEST case scenario.

  • July 6, 2005, 9:56 p.m. CST


    by VatoLoco

  • July 6, 2005, 10:20 p.m. CST

    Actually, Child Roland...

    by OBSD

    I wasn't talking about F4 specifically, nor was I refrencing Harry's review at all, I was refrencing a guy way up at the top who said something like "Van Helsing and Armmeggedon were good for what they were" or words to that effect. For a few years now I've been hearing that phrase: "Good for what it was." Not that it's GOOD by any stretchof the imagination, but "good for what it was. In my mind that means that it sucked, but there were some explosions, and because people don't want to admit that they just paid $10.00 to see this steaming turd, so they just say it was "Good for what it was". It's very possible to make an exciting film that's smartly written, well acted, and well directed with good special effects and everything. We can have the whole ball of wax, we just have to stop going to crap movies THAT was my point. I have not made a judgement on F4 because I 'm boycotting all Marvel Movies (with the exception of Spider-Man 3) because, like his conterparts in the comics division, Arad is basically telling the fans: "FUCK YOU. YOU'LL WATCH ANY RETARTED STORY WE FILM NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT DEVIATES FROM THE STORY AND YOU'LL LIKE IT!" Well, fuck him. He's not seeing any more of my cash until he starts respecting the source material. I'm done now.

  • July 6, 2005, 10:21 p.m. CST


    by DocMcCoy

    now my expectations are even lower...and can harry use his powers to get someone to release THE OUTFIT on dvd? home of the bbq bananaman video

  • July 6, 2005, 10:29 p.m. CST


    by OBSD

    Can anyone confirm the rumors that Arad personally destroyed the prints to Corman's Fantastic Four? Mori? Harry? Anyone? Plus, seeing as how the new animation is basically throwing down the gauntlet to Arad (excellent job, by the way), will you guys post some sort of story on that? I'm starting to feel like it's '97 with you guys vs. Batman & Robin all over again. Mabye this site is getting it's balls back after all. That would be cool.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:07 p.m. CST

    On Peyton Reed...

    by Ribbons

    I don't know why I'm even really bothering to write this, since almost no one's going to react to it positively and since the audience I'm trying to reach apparently think Harry's opinions are the only ones that don't "suck balls," but I figured I'd dispel some of the rumors that people have co-opted as fact lately in their efforts to bash Tim Story. If you think Peyton Reed was gonna make a more "faithful, classy, retro" Fantastic Four, you're wrong. Take a look at these links: news/articles/ 1458473/20021101/ index.jhtml?headlines=true ************ display.cgi?id=15287. Not only had he decided to move the film in a less retro direction than people are pretending he would have gone, but the same "metrosexual, 'fratboy' Doom" would have been there, and his origin would have been linked to the Fantastic Four's as well. And his "power" was even lamer. So keep talking about how Peyton Reed would have been a better director because of whatever reason you choose this week, but at least get your facts straight.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:15 p.m. CST

    Hey John Singleton's not a one note hack...

    by beefywhore

    in fact as long as we're talking super-hero movies, I can't wait to see him do a Black Lightning movie

  • July 6, 2005, 11:16 p.m. CST


    by beefywhore

    Was that horribly racist?

  • July 6, 2005, 11:19 p.m. CST

    Arad and Corman's Fantastic Four

    by Ribbons

    I'm pretty sure I actually read an article where he said that he had hunted down copies of the film. Wonder if he'll burn the negatives for 'Elektra' too. Arad is a massive shill, and he'll say whatever it takes to convince people that the Big Mac they're eating is filet mignon.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:28 p.m. CST

    I'm as mad as hell ...

    by MajorOcelot

    I wish there were a way that we could keep people from seeing movies like this and show companies like fox that we won't blindly stomach the garbage that they pile into the theaters. Fox believes that if they shake Alba's tits in our faces and place the FF on fast food cups all over the place they will make money. The sad thing is that they are right and geeks everywhere need to NOT GO SEE THIS FILM. Your pal is right Harry, Doom is one of the coolest fucking villains of our time. Done right he could've been a new Vader for us even. However because Fox doesn't give a shit about the content and only care that it gets retarded little 13 year olds that think the Ring 2 is the best movie of the year to see it, the real fans get dick and see one of the most promising super hero franchises get raped and left for dead on the side of the road. I can't believe that Sue is played by an actress that is a year younger than me! She supposed to be like a matriarchal figure (if that is even a word). Fuck you Fox.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:30 p.m. CST

    and I'm not gonna take this anymore!!!!

    by MajorOcelot

  • July 6, 2005, 11:36 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    What is your deal with me? Seriously, it's like in every single talkback -- even ones where I don't even fucking talk back -- you have to slip some insult of me into one of your posts. Even now, when you just complimented me for, I don't know, I guess reading FluffyUnbound's post about Harry Math, you had to add "who I can't believe I just gave a compliment." If you have a specific problem with me, you can just address me directly, you know.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:51 p.m. CST

    Childe Roland...

    by genro

    you're trying to have it both ways. If the Thing design is so "spot-on-balls-dead-accurate", then how the fuck can you also say "I've never said I believe htis was the look they were deliberately going for or the result of an artistic choice"...what utter bullshit. You suggest I'm're either the living example of the man who can't see the trees because of the forest in his way, or you realized how off this Thing looks when compared to your beloved "origin" idea. Chiklis' Thing has a resembelance to the art in issues 5 and 6, at best. He's smaller and has more of a human face than one of mud, as Kirby designed in the first four...Take all the shots you want dude, it just shows how easy it's been for me to sink your battleship on this. I haven't read the book since the early 90s' so I could give a fuck less about keeping up with current designs, (which you apparently have). What I'm sure of is that you don't have a inkling as to the why's and wherefores in regards to the decision making process on these flicks, but you're more than willing to set upon Knowles because he does and he takes this into the theater with's such righteous bullshit on your part. I could hand you link after link that would lay out how decisions were made on this film, and you'll ignore it by deflecting to personal shots. Weak stand.

  • July 6, 2005, 11:57 p.m. CST

    Invisibility = Hollow Man

    by deadboy1313

    I think this will be Marvel's decline into generic (read DC) Superhero movies. They're trying to crank them out as cash cows instead of developing them with the nuances that made the X-men and Spidey into franchise films. NOT that I wouldn't have changed a few things (adding Gwen Stacy and the Beast, as well as more Anna "yummy Rogue" Pacquin). Invisibility was done to perfection in Hollow Man. Even better than the film were the dvd documentaries on how the effects were created. As far as ignoring Yancy Street.......It's Clobberin' Time!

  • July 7, 2005, 12:32 a.m. CST

    I know this is a little off topic

    by beefywhore

    But I haven't seen any coverage of this project and here is a cool lookig poster of The Fog

  • July 7, 2005, 1:12 a.m. CST

    I might be alone here...

    by Sleeping_Angel

    ...But I really enjoyed this movie. I thought it was funny as hell, (which is pretty funny, especially the south park version). And I'm thinking Harry might need some glasses or something, what with Johnny Storm's hair being blonde and all, mabye he saw it in a theatre with bad colour, I dunno. Anyway, I think the idea of this movie (get ready, this is pretty shocking) is to go to it, watch it, laugh at it, and enjoy yourself. If you're sitting in the theatre comparing it frame by frame to issues of the comic, I'm thinking you need a life. It's a movie. On a rational note, not everyone is going to like it, just like, anyone who has read the fantastic four from issue one to whatever damn issue they're up to, will like every issue, and if you do, well you need a life too, I mean really. Original forms of things are not the be all and end all of those things, if they were, Ben Grimm (or is it Grim, I haven't the slightest) wouldn't have...oh wait, spoiler.... nevermind. Just watch it, it's good.

  • July 7, 2005, 1:15 a.m. CST

    Oh and I forgot to mention

    by Sleeping_Angel

    I saw the trailer for 'Stealth' before Fantastic 4, that movie is going to be so cool. Screw all you guys who can't enjoy movies just for the movie part of them.

  • July 7, 2005, 1:27 a.m. CST

    Ouch Dude...What'd I ever do to you...

    by beefywhore

    Oh well....suck my balls Kai_Mah'gra

  • July 7, 2005, 1:58 a.m. CST

    I care about f4, but i knew FOX would phuck this up, and Tim Sto

    by The Founder

    I'm sick of the Story bashing. Now granted i think he was out of his league, cause he doesn't have the visualy stlye yet for this film, but at the same time this was an exec driven film from the start, and it's their fault when this blows up in their faces, which it probably will. Harry has had a hatred for this project cause it's not how he feels it should be, but I think harry is a little on to something. The film could've been great. What in the hell is going on with marvel.

  • July 7, 2005, 2:03 a.m. CST

    Oh no the director is black, he 's also behind taxi and barb

    by The Founder

    was going to squeeze out a good film. Look Story was never the man for the job. He had little power and say in this film. It amazes me how very few points the finger at Kinberg. A man who's worked on Cat Woman, XXX2, Charlie Angels2, and Mr & Mrs Smith???? What were you people expecting.

  • July 7, 2005, 2:05 a.m. CST

    One more bit of good news, Kinberg also is attached to X3. Just

    by The Founder

  • July 7, 2005, 2:20 a.m. CST

    If Dr. Doom sucks it doesn't matter how funny the movie is

    by andrew coleman

    Comic book movies work if the bad guy is kick ass. Spidey had one crazy as balls bad guy in Goblin, and a complete bad ass with Doc Ock, and both characters made sense and had an evil plan. What is Dr. Doom's plan in this movie? "I've always wanted power.", well who doesn't? So does Doom just randomly decide he must destroy the Fantastic Four? The show down between the bad guy or bad guys against the hero is suppose to be epic. Not just something that happens. If Doom has no real evil plan, if he is just crazy for the sake of being crazy and that just makes him the bad guy, that's boring and the movie will also suck.

  • July 7, 2005, 2:42 a.m. CST

    The REAL Dr Doom......

    by Doctor Ecks

    OK. The FF trailers have looked cheap. I was never a big comic book fan as a kid, but occasionally checked them out. I'm appreciating them more now, particularly since I'm getting into some of the artists (I've ALWAYS liked Wally Wood for example, and that has fueled my curiosity into other illustrators). Anyway, the heydey of the FF was before my time, so I'm not too familiar with anything but the most basic idea's concerning the characters. For most of these adaptations, it seems best to try and stick to the source material. What's my point?...... Well I decided to check out a site on Dr Doom. I apologize for my ignorance, but I don't remember Dr Doom being that big in the 70's. Frankly, I sympathize with the writers. How on earth could they have put forth the story of Dr Doom? I mean, come on! He's a gypsy with magical powers who becomes the King of Latveria and puts the FF in a time machine to steal Blackbeard's treasure! Wait a minute. That would've been cool. Can you imagine $150,000,000 production with that in it?! THAT would definitely be cause to "stay-in-the-car" for a good 5-10 minutes before going into the theater. Lastly. So many people have said "Jessica Alba is hot" that a karmic backlash of sorts must surely occur soon. Sure she's "hot", but she's got to be the most dissappointing screen presence i've seen in a while. Other famous hotties were terrible actresses - Ursula Andress for example - but do you think Alba will come even remotely close to being remembered 5 minutes beyond her latest screen appearance? BTW - here's the link for Dr Doom's story... Lastly. The FF should've had a 60's look to it, even if it were set in the present day. Sue storm has a 60's big blonde doo, and doesn't RR have greying temples? Shouldn't their outfits be some sort of blue!? Perhaps not pale blue (that would've been cool) but blue just the same? And WTF? Every 3 year old pictures The Thing with major brow-action! What gives!? I actually could buy the idea of a 20ft Hulk, but a browless-Thing!!! Whahhh!?! Who forced THAT concept on the production design? No artist, that's for sure. That's like leaving the little pointy ears off of Batman's costume.

  • July 7, 2005, 2:42 a.m. CST

    Dr Doom doesn't suck

    by Sleeping_Angel

    Just to clarify a bit for you, Doom has issues in this movie, and like all megalomaniacs, he decides that if he can't have something, no one can. I like the fact that he's not just some dude who comes on the scene with crazy arse scams, what'd Dr Doom ever want anyway? I don't know the comics well enough say. I dig on how he hates Reed and Ben a long time before anything even happens to them, and hates them more when their brilliant idea screws up. I think he's pretty indifferent to Johnny, since Johnny never really bothers anyone except Ben in this movie. (and mind you, that's some funny stuff, especially the feather duster scene.) And just a side note on the villain being the centrepiece thing, the villains were the centrepiece of batman and robin, so maybe we can that's not as important as everyone makes it out to be. now after all that rant, I'm back to 'go, watch, enjoy'

  • July 7, 2005, 2:58 a.m. CST

    I want to clarify on my Doom comment

    by andrew coleman

    I didn't mean the bad guy should be the main focus. I'm also not saying that Doom should have an uber plan to destroy the world. But to make the leader of Latveria and changing him to a pissed off ex bf who now has metal skin? Have you seen the new online promo's? It's all about Sue's personal life "Her ex won't go away". Is that what Doom is now an up tight ass hole who can't get over some nice ass? So he puts on a metal mask and blows up down town NY? Okay I'm ranting but I hope someone sees my point at least slightly

  • July 7, 2005, 2:58 a.m. CST

    Now that CHUD has officially given FF a higher score than BATMAN

    by zikade zarathos

    I just want to point out that every last iota of CHUD's credibility just flew out the fucking window. FANTASTIC FOUR is a seriously horrendous movie, and Harry was far too kind in his review. It's awful.

  • July 7, 2005, 3:01 a.m. CST

    On the same not about bad guys...

    by andrew coleman

    Some news floating around that there will be 4 bad guys in Spider man 4, Vulture, Venom, Sandman, Hobgoblin and maybe two more bad guys. Alright sorry to break off back to F4...

  • July 7, 2005, 3:53 a.m. CST

    I wonder if the CHUD guys went on a set visit?

    by GILFHunter

    Even if you hate Harry's tastes, you've got to appreciate his integrety when he ripped Blade Trinity while there were banners for the film papering the site.

  • July 7, 2005, 5:30 a.m. CST

    IMDB Plants

    by Nabster

    My god Fox is shameless. I can't believe what I am reading on the IMDB page for Fantastic Four. You would think its one of the best films ever made. Review after review, raving about how this is a fantastic film.

  • July 7, 2005, 5:36 a.m. CST


    by Nabster

    "The more educated in effects, film and the human language that you are

  • July 7, 2005, 5:47 a.m. CST

    I like the way Harry thinks he's some kind of an insider

    by The_Iceman2288

    When he's actually nothing but a fanboy behind a computer.

  • July 7, 2005, 7:20 a.m. CST


    by Sleeping_Angel

    Now, I don't know if it's familiar territory for talkbackers, but I can't see anything wrong with Victor being jealous, even though in the beginning, the jealousy is unfounded, it just sort of drives him, because he can see how Reed could come back in with his old routines, mixed with his new ideas about life, and steal Susan back. Again I'm with, it isn't a carbon copy of the comic book story, and I'll say this, show me one adaption of anything at all in the history of film, that is a carbon copy of the thing it was adapted from. And once you see the movie, see the potential for the things that the comic geeks expected. That is if a second film is ever made. I do fear for its future, given the quality groundwork in this film, as opposed to the general feeling of hatred that most people seem to have towards it. I worry that it'll be made direct to video with actors who just sort of look like the originals. But I did mean to talk more about Victor, a very young victor. If you're a comic fan, you must have read, or glimpsed at the recent 'what if' series of books. all the movies to me, have been 'what if' stories, another take on the characters and the worlds they live in. It's all fiction, and fiction is fluid. the only thing that stops that fluidity is stubborn clinging to source material. imagine what movies like war of the worlds, or lord of the rings would have been like if they'd stuck precisely to the source material. sure geeks would have liked them, but no one else. And blasting holes through annoying people's chests is awesome fun, don't say you wouldn't want to do it if you could.

  • July 7, 2005, 7:24 a.m. CST

    "Islamic " Cowards

    by The True Priapic

    These cunts have struck in London now..makes this talkback seem pointless.These fucking cunts are probably celebrating in Finsbury Park..I just don't understand why we don't get them out of the country.Aren't they a security risk?If they promote terrorism in the country they live fuck 'em.We are far too scared of PC-ness here.I fucking cannot believe Blair coming out and doing his FUCKING acting bit...long ...pauses...and...this is...another...long pause. Terrorism is utter cowardice.They will not win.I hate and pity them at the same time. Anyone who lives and works in London knows that the underground has always been a risk.It's delapidation is quaint to tourists but terrifying to residents.The buses to work are so overcrowded as well...I put in a talkback above yesterday making a joke point about how we can barely get these services working at the best of times so how could we manage the olympics.If you read it you'll understand how fucking ill I feel now....Horrifically..and I don't mean this lightly,this was fucking inevitable.Al Quida have taken "responsibility".They will not win. Even capital punishment wouldn't work.It would just inflame these cunts "responsibilites"....

  • July 7, 2005, 7:42 a.m. CST


    by Sebilrazen

    Hmmm... Insider would seem to lead to an impression that he would have to be 'in' the industry to be considered one, am I correct? WTF is 'John Carpenter of Mars' then? Wouldn't that qualify him as an 'insider?'

  • July 7, 2005, 7:44 a.m. CST


    by Sebilrazen

    "John Carter of Mars"

  • July 7, 2005, 7:55 a.m. CST

    I saw this today,

    by Conan_the_Humble

    It wasn't as bad as I was expecting from Harry's bile aimed at this for so long. If he can turn around and say he liked Daredevil yet hated this, I'd say ANY credibility Harry had left was thrown out the window. IN addition, I enjoyed this more than any Blade movie to date. Something Harry obviously doesn't agree with, remember his "infamous" Blade 2 review... Cheers.

  • July 7, 2005, 7:58 a.m. CST

    The Angel, he's a Sleeping inna the ground...

    by DinoDeLaurentiis

    ...'cos he's a goddamn PLANT! Holy crappa, iffa it were not a bad enough onna the IMDB, now we gotta the foliage a growing alla over the place here too! Goddamn a studio putzes with their marketing campaigns anna their "I don' know much about a the comic a books, but I know a what I like, anna I like a this movie blah blah BLAH BLAH BLAH!" GO HOME GRANDMA, FOR I AM LUGASH! I mean, I'm a the Dino!

  • July 7, 2005, 8:17 a.m. CST

    That's the first time I've been called a plant

    by Sleeping_Angel

    That's quite an honour, oh and dino, are you typing in your real accent, or are you just trying to sound retarded? It's too late at night to argue about that though. I'm pondering staying up for the first episode of stripperella, 2:30am is a bit harsh for a brand new TV show though. But I'm not going to apologise for liking the fantastic 4, nor for expressing that view in this 'forum'. If you want to actively debate the film, then I'm all for that, since I have my views well formed, but if you want to call me names, I'm going to laugh at you, then go to sleep

  • July 7, 2005, 8:20 a.m. CST

    How does it feel to be in the sweaty back pocket of WB?

    by Breck

    I would ask how you sleep at night, but I guess with that fat paycheck they give you to bash all FOX movies, you can afford a nice sleep number bed that can even accomodate your fat ass. What is your sleep number anyway, 2 million?

  • July 7, 2005, 8:23 a.m. CST

    Devin at CHUD liked it

    by Lost Skeleton

    and he is saying the same's not that bad and is a great mood lighter to Batman Begins so there...50 million opening weekend.

  • July 7, 2005, 8:26 a.m. CST

    I hate to say it,

    by Jar Jar 4 Prez

    but I totally agree with Harry. Both Van Helsing and Armageddon were good movies and I'm sure that FF is gonna suck a turd.

  • July 7, 2005, 8:47 a.m. CST

    genro, genro... you're being glib.

    by Childe Roland

    Sorry to cop a Cruise-ism, but it's actually appropriate here. If you say the Thing bears a resemblance to issues 5 & 6, how can you also say his look is completely off? I'm not taking personal shots. I'm laying out facts observable to anyone (even yourself, as you just proved). And there is no double standard to my saying it doesn't matter why The Thing in the movie looks like he did in Kirby's early work. He does, and that's enough. It has nothing to do with the motivations of the string pullers involved. It can be a happy accident (like life on this planet and most of the folks typing on this board) and it's PERFECTLY OK to enjoy it. Just as it's perfectly okay to enjoy a young, cute actress playing a young, cute Sue Storm. How is stating opinion weak? Because it undermines the grand conspiracy to make these movies shitty that you seem to think you've cornered the awareness market on? News flash - as long as the movie looks good enough to make money, all of your inside knowledge about how it was corrupted and raped and mishandled means absolutely nothing. Try telling legions of Star Wars prequel fans that their movies are shit because they were primarily designed to sell toys. You'll get some pretty rabid responses. Many will insist that isn't the case (personally, I think it is). But many, MANY more will tell you it doesn't matter as long as they enjoy the end product. That's the forest, genro. What you're doing is building a bunker out of trees that are now rotted and decomposing (or are you building a time machine to go back and stop this movie from being made this way so you and Harry can have your precious "retro" FF flick?). All I'm doing is saying that it doesn't matter if F4 was designed to sell toys AND the looks of the characters were determined more by the machinations of agents and actors than the creative forces behind the scenes, AS LONG AS they got things right - which, for the most part, it appears they did. Read Harry's review again. The negativity is completely predicated on what might have been and what he would have done differently. Most of the concrete things he has to say about the movie itself (aside from some general comments on cinematography, lighting and sets) are positive. The end result, the movie we get and the movie we watch... the movie which Harry admits he "kind of liked" is what matters. You are the one being self righteous, insisting that you can appreciate the movie on a different level than uninformed folk like myself (what a pompous blowhard you are). Again, I haven't seen the movie yet. I'm going to. I may like it or I may hate it. But I'm seeing it because I like the general look of everything I've seen from it so far. I like all of that enough to override my misgivings about how they handled the Doom character. Everything else looks consistent with what I, as a movie lover and a comic fan, want from an FF movie. Go ahead and tell me I'm wrong for that opinion again. It's funny. And while I'm laughing at your seething, jaded "Hollywood insider" rage, you go take an elementary logic course - or watch the clip of Tom Cruise on the Today show (he knows as much about Psychology as you do about movie criticism). Then come back and talk to me about weak arguments "dude."

  • July 7, 2005, 9:12 a.m. CST

    "Shut up and eat our crap, and like it."

    by SpikeTBB

    Straying from the source material can be acceptable if the results are a good story. Peter Parker didn

  • July 7, 2005, 9:27 a.m. CST

    I realize..

    by SpikeTBB

    I know Fox will not go broke with out my participation, it's a point of principle, however.

  • July 7, 2005, 9:28 a.m. CST

    Think London's Underground is at risk? NYC's Subway is f

    by Mr. Profit

    When it rains real bad our system is all fucked up. In March there were 3 seperate incidents where the system shut down. My condolences go out to the people of London who are going through this tough time.

  • July 7, 2005, 9:54 a.m. CST

    Childe Roland...this is great...

    by genro

    I love how you cannot actually rebuttal things I point out that you say. "Spot-on-dead-balls-accurate" - your fucking words. How many times do I have to go back and pull your "origin" bullshit idea? The argument you've stated now is not the one you made earlier. You keep watering it down to fit what you want it to mean. Previously, you were arguing for these decisions to be made as pertaining to "an origin film". But every time I point out that there's no proof or basis for that claim, but there is when pertaining to the business side of things, you scream "Inside Baseball"!...the fact that you're willing to consider "happy accident" is sad. There is no such thing on a big studio film as coincidence. There are so many people that have say on the smallest decisions, it's fucking absurd...I pointed out the Thing similiarity to issues 5 and 6 to show that you're a dimbulb when it comes to Kirby art. You scream Origin in every post until I point out, it's not close. I then have to tell you which issues he resembles, and you're not even bright enough to reply with "maybe those issues were the main reference material, because they also have the first appearance of doom"...that's a logical conclusion, not fucking happy accidents on a 130 Million god, I cannot believe you are so ignorant to business you would even write those words as a serious possibility...your argument for Alba's casting being based on getting a young, cute chick has credibility, but that's because it's a standard move for all big studio projects aimed for a 18-34 demo. It's more sound than your initial "Invisible GIRL" for this retro-film concept, I'm not a champion of the Peyton Reed idea. I simply pointed out that the similarities between FF and The Incredibles would have allowed Arad to make a "retro" superhero film - i.e not in the mold of Spidey or X-Men. In case you're unaware, FOX wanted FF to be almost an X-Men clone, which is when they were considering Bernie Mac for Grimm and the latino chick for Sue, (the ethnic diversity of the X-men, to clairfy even more), having the X writers come on board, emphasizing the powers as metaphors for their inherent nature, etc...and Doom became DaFoe's Goblin...retro does not have to mean 1960's. It means an older style. Arad tried to meld the two - a retro storyarc with the current superhero take - and it didn't work.

  • July 7, 2005, 10:26 a.m. CST

    Not only do you argue like Cruise...

    by Childe Roland're apparently dyslexic as well. If you quote me in the future, genro, try to get it right. My words were "dead-on balls accurate" and I stand by them. That's my opinion. And it's hardly ignorant. I've read the comics and seen the stills from the movie. Regardless of what Kirby meant the Thing's face to look like in issue 1, I believe Chiklis' mug in the movie make-up is a about as close as you can get to the way it ended up looking on paper. You're the one who first said the look was "not even close" and followed that with an admission that he looked like Kirby's depiction of The Thing in issues 5 & 6. Are you saying that Kirby was so inconsistent that the character's look changed that dramatically from issue #1 to issue #5 or are you dyslexic AND schizophrenic? And to suggest that people weilding 130 million dollar budgets are incapable of making mistakes or creating what amount to happy accidents is not only economically and creatively naive, it's borderline paranoid. I hate to break it to you, but even one man masturbating can't accurately predict where his splooge will go... when you involve more people in a more complicated process, there's a certain amount of chaos that you just need to accept. Not everything goes according to plan. Sometimes dramas are unintentionally funny. Sometimes the cheapest or easiest way does end up being the best way. Do you even plan on seeing this movie or are you going to keep talking out of your ass about its overall quality based on Harry's admittedly biased opinion of it? Because that would stop being funny after a while and just become sad. If it doesn't look like something you're interested in, give it a miss. But don't try and tell people who are interested in it based on what they've seen of it that they shouldn't be because of what you think you know about it (without having seen it). That, my confused little friend, is the definition of "ignorant." You're right about one thing, though. This is fun. Keep it coming, genro. With all the horrible shit going on in the world today, I can use the yuks.

  • July 7, 2005, 11:51 a.m. CST

    21% at Rotten Tomatoes

    by wash

    Face it fanboys (and Avi), this film is a colossal critical flop. It will sell toys and *maybe* even make a profit when all is said and done, but the franchise is over before it started. And it further tarnishes the Marvel brand, which in the long term, ain't good (durr!). Good going AA and Fox. Hopefully you learned something.

  • July 7, 2005, 11:54 a.m. CST

    I may have a movie deal here..

    by SpikeTBB

    So when is the X rated version coming out? I can see it now.. The Fantastic Whores! Ms. Orgasmic! The Insatiable Woman! SweetThing! The Human Scorcher! And special guest villain Bruce Campbell as the man they can

  • July 7, 2005, 12:30 p.m. CST

    Just to recap the comicbook superhero movies so far:

    by Serious Black

    The GOOD: Superman 1 and 2, Batman, The Crow, Blade, X-Men, Spider-Man, X2, Daredevil Director's Cut, Batman Begins. The BAD: Superman 3 and 4, Batman Returns, Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, Blade 2, Daredevil Theatrical Release, Punisher, Spider-Man 2, Blade Trinity The UGLY: Rubber-eared Captain America, Dolph's Punisher, Hulk, Elektra Not sure if this is a complete list or not. Sounds like FF will end up as the latest addition to the BAD category. Good, bad, or hideous, these damn superhero movies are going to keep coming to theaters.

  • July 7, 2005, 12:32 p.m. CST

    Just to recap the comicbook superhero movies so far:

    by Serious Black

    The GOOD: Superman 1 and 2, Batman, The Crow, Blade, X-Men, Spider-Man, X2, Daredevil Director's Cut, Batman Begins. The BAD: Superman 3 and 4, Batman Returns, Batman Forever, Batman & Robin, Blade 2, Daredevil Theatrical Release, Punisher, Spider-Man 2, Blade Trinity The UGLY: Rubber-eared Captain America, Dolph's Punisher, Hulk, Elektra Not sure if this is a complete list or not. Sounds like FF will end up as the latest addition to the BAD category. Good, bad, or hideous, these damn superhero movies are going to keep coming to theaters.

  • July 7, 2005, 12:33 p.m. CST

    Serious a Black

    by DinoDeLaurentiis

    Don' a forget a the "Howard, He's a the Duck". Holy crappa that was a one foul fowl. Heh heh, I make a with a the funny!

  • July 7, 2005, 12:36 p.m. CST

    Yeah, right. I knew I forgot a few.

    by Serious Black

    Howard the Duck: Ugly. Hellboy: Bad.

  • July 7, 2005, 12:39 p.m. CST

    "FF" OPENS IN AUSTRALIA - wasn't too bad!

    by rastar

    I saw the film tonight after work - it opened here on a Thursday - and I enjoyed it very much. Not as good as Batman Begins, or Spiderman 2, or X-Men, but it had some of the elements that made the first X-Men and the original Superman (& it's sequel) so entertaining. I grew up watching Star Wars, Superman and watching all the classic 60s, 70s and 80s cartoons, which this film is influenced by, and it seemed to have the same optimism and light-hearted quality to it that I remember. As Harry said, the film lacks the polish and subtlety of recent Marvel epics, but I didn't expect as much going in. In it's favour, it does have some good action scenes (not great) some good pacing and some great effects shots. On the whole, the effects aren't great, but they aren't crap, either. The score by John Ottman took some time to impress me, but it works well, without dominating the film. I think Dr Doom was both good and bad at times, but I felt that the way he was defeated (or not quite) was pretty cool. I think it could have been made so much more over the top, but it worked in the context of the film. I think the film is aimed more at kids and at a wider audience, which will be frustrating for some but not for others. I recommend seeing it - but don't let your expectations ruin the fun.

  • July 7, 2005, 12:50 p.m. CST

    More I forgot...

    by Serious Black

    In the interest of completeness, bear with me. BAD: League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. UGLY: Spawn. There's a few I still haven't seen like Catwoman and BarbWire, but I have no intention of seeing these either. I'm going to predict Ghost Rider will fall somewhere between bad and ugly, but you never know, it could be the best movie ever.

  • July 7, 2005, 12:52 p.m. CST


    by rastar

    Sorry about the apparent contradictions in my previous post, but it's 3:38am here... To clarify... Effects shots - some great (Johnny Storm), most okay. Dr Doom - seemed to fit the style of the film well enough, but not exactly memorable... Performances - the Fantastic Four, I felt the casting was great. Dr Doom, I think they could have done better. Overall impression - it's not a bad film and at times it's a lot of fun, with some genuinely funny lines (Thing and Storm) throughout.

  • July 7, 2005, 12:52 p.m. CST

    The Corman film doesn't seem so bad now.

    by Uncle Stan

  • July 7, 2005, 1:04 p.m. CST

    Who else hopes that "Fantasti-car" and "PogoPlane" become the ne

    by OptimusPrimeTime

    Jessica Alba is not a sexy, tomcat beanpole. I'm going to see the movie this weekend; with my expectations already this low, I'm pretty sure I'll like it. Fully expect FF to out-earn BB at the box office (probably a great Batman movie, but only because it made Bruce into a slightly-less 2D character). Also, while I'm at it, if WotW had cut from TC crumbling the alien vine in Boston to Morgan Freeman's narration, it would be one of my favorite movies; easily the most intense thing I've seen on screen in a long time. Spielberg's ending (which is to say, not Wells') left a bad aftertaste.

  • July 7, 2005, 1:04 p.m. CST

    The Lesson of Howard

    by SpikeTBB

    Didn't Howard the Duck bankrupt the studio that made it?

  • July 7, 2005, 1:32 p.m. CST

    Ebert's 1-star FF Review!! (The last sentence is particular

    by MasterWhedon

    So you get in a spaceship, and you venture into orbit to research a mysterious star storm hurtling toward Earth. There's a theory it may involve properties of use to man. The spaceship is equipped with a shield to protect its passengers from harmful effects, but the storm arrives ahead of schedule and saturates everybody on board with unexplained but powerful energy that creates radical molecular changes in their bodies. They return safety to Earth, only to discover that Reed Richards (Ioan Gruffudd), the leader of the group, has a body that can take any form or stretch to unimaginable lengths. Call him Mr. Fantastic. Ben Grimm (Michael Chiklis) develops superhuman powers in a vast and bulky body that seems made of stone. Call him the Thing. Sue Storm (Jessica Alba) can become invisible at will and generate force fields that can contain propane explosions, in case you have a propane explosion that needs containing but want the option of being invisible. Call her Invisible Woman. And her brother Johnny Storm (Chris Evans) has a body that can burn at supernova temperatures. Call him the Human Torch. I almost forgot the villain, Victor Von Doom (Julian McMahon), who becomes Dr. Doom and wants to use the properties of the star storm and the powers of the Fantastic Four for his own purposes. He eventually becomes metallic. By this point in the review, are you growing a little restless? What am I gonna do, list names and actors and superpowers and nicknames forever? That's how the movie feels. It's all setup and demonstration, and naming and discussing and demonstrating, and it never digests the complications of the Fantastic Four and gets on to telling a compelling story. Sure, there's a nice sequence where the Thing keeps a fire truck from falling off a bridge, but you see one fire truck saved from falling off a bridge, you've seen them all. The Fantastic Four are, in short, underwhelming. The edges kind of blur between them and other superhero teams. That's understandable. How many people could pass a test right now on who the X-Men are and what their powers are? Or would want to? I wasn't watching "Fantastic Four" to study it, but to be entertained by it, but how could I be amazed by a movie that makes its own characters so indifferent about themselves? The Human Torch, to repeat, can burn at supernova temperatures! He can become so hot, indeed, that he could threaten the very existence of the Earth itself! This is absolutely stupendously amazing, wouldn't you agree? If you could burn at supernova temperatures, would you be able to stop talking about it? I know people who won't shut up about winning 50 bucks in the lottery. But after Johnny Storm finds out he has become the Human Torch, he takes it pretty much in stride, showing off a little by setting his thumb on fire. Later he saves the Earth, while Invisible Woman simultaneously contains his supernova so he doesn't destroy it. That means Invisible Woman could maybe create a force field to contain the sun, which would be a big deal, but she's too distracted to explore the possibilities; she gets uptight because she will have to be naked to be invisible, because otherwise people could see her empty clothes; it is no consolation to her that invisible nudity is more of a metaphysical concept than a condition. Are these people complete idiots? The entire nature of their existence has radically changed, and they're about as excited as if they got a makeover on "Oprah." The exception is Ben Grimm, as the Thing, who gets depressed when he looks in the mirror. Unlike the others, who look normal, except when actually exhibiting superpowers, he looks like -- well, he looks like the Hulk, just as the Human Torch looks like the Flash, and the Invisible Woman has some of the same powers as Storm in "X-Men." Is this the road company? Thing clomps around on his Size 18 boulders and feels like an outcast until he meets a blind woman named Alicia (Kerry Washington) who loves him, in part because she can't see him. But the Thing looks like Don Rickles crossed with Mt. Rushmore; he has a body that feels like a driveway and a face with crevices you could hide a toothbrush in. Alicia tenderly feels his face with her fingers, like blind people often do while falling in love in the movies, and I guess she likes what she feels. Maybe she's extrapolating. The story involves Dr. Doom's plot to ... but perhaps we need not concern ourselves with the plot of the movie, since it is undermined at every moment by the unwieldy need to involve a screenful of characters, who, despite the most astonishing powers, have not been made exciting or even interesting. The X-Men are major league compared to them. And the really good superhero movies, like "Superman," "SpiderMan 2" and "Batman Begins," leave "Fantastic Four" so far behind that the movie should almost be ashamed to show itself in the same theaters.

  • July 7, 2005, 1:37 p.m. CST

    FF is a the family film?

    by DinoDeLaurentiis

    Okay okay, for alla you people who have a seen a the movie, and not a the plants who keep a sayin' its a the family movie... I gotta the 5-year-old granddaughter from a Rafaella... she like a to see the movie, but I keep a hearing how a they show Jessie Alba inna the bra anna the panties anna how she is a the naked but invisible... somebody please 'splain to Dino, can I take a the little girl anna relax or what?

  • July 7, 2005, 1:43 p.m. CST

    You've got to hand it to Ebert...

    by Childe Roland

    ...when he doesn't like a movie, he usually has well-thought-out reasons. Perhaps because he's bothered to see it? Anyone else read his review of Star Trek: Nemesis? It was awesome (the review, obviously... not the film).

  • July 7, 2005, 1:50 p.m. CST

    Let me get this straight....

    by decfx

    the film is pure shit but the first word description is mediocre. You need to make up your mind.

  • July 7, 2005, 1:55 p.m. CST

    Childe Roland

    by MasterWhedon

    Yeah, I read the Nemesis one. Loved it. The whole bit about how if their shields are always failing, they should get new ones was priceless.

  • July 7, 2005, 2:14 p.m. CST

    it's almost as good as GEORGE OF THE JUNGLE

    by tjrmusic

    I just read your post about that couple's comments after the movie. That was one of the best laughs I've had in a while. This is off topic (kinda) but reading your post reminded me of a similar incident. I was in the theater and they where playing the trailer for "Prince of Egypt". sitting behind me was this inbred couple. It isn't till the very end of the trailer when the wife suddenly realizes what was already obvious to everyone else sitting in the theater. That this film is the story of Moses. So she she says out loud to her husband: "This is the 10 Commandments"! The husband replies: "I guess they're cartoonizing it". The Wife finishes this brilliant discourse with "Well that's good because now kids will see it".

  • July 7, 2005, 2:24 p.m. CST

    Sure FF is a moldy 21% at rottentomatoes, but the real story is

    by The Heathen

    The Devils Rejects is getting surprisingly good reviews. Hmm. I bet the average for FF goes down to at least 19% when all the reviews come in.

  • July 7, 2005, 2:29 p.m. CST

    I'm also quite fond...

    by Childe Roland

    ...of Ebert's original "The Brown Bunny" review, MasterWhedon. The one before Gallo tried to give him colon cancer. The best bit was a play on one of Churchill's more memorable quotes ("When I wake, I shall be sober"), but he really made it his own. I don't always agree with him, but his reviews are usually entertaining.

  • July 7, 2005, 2:36 p.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    Yeah, I remember that whole fiasco. He gave a really great interview on Stern around that time. My all-time favorite "bad" review he's ever given was to Rob Reiner's North (you may have seen this, but it bears repeating): "I hated this movie. Hated hated hated hated hated this movie. Hated it. Hated every simpering stupid vacant audience-insulting moment of it. Hated the sensibility that thought anyone would like it. Hated the implied insult to the audience by its belief that anyone would be entertained by it." There's more too, but I don't want to clog up the TB. Anyway, I'm pumped for FF now! Could be this year's Gigli!! (Which, PS, I saw, and it wasn't nearly THAT bad.)

  • July 7, 2005, 3 p.m. CST

    Find FF review in these links

    by STL Critic or

  • July 7, 2005, 3:21 p.m. CST

    Gigli = Fantastic Four

    by GILFHunter

    MasterWhedon, you put it out there for all the universe to read. Lets hope it snowballs.

  • July 7, 2005, 3:27 p.m. CST

    STL Critic

    by docfalken

    Two links to the same review? Geez.

  • July 7, 2005, 3:46 p.m. CST

    Thanks, MasterWhedon...

    by Mafu

    ...for posting Ebert's review of "Fantastic Four" on this talkback. He pretty much nailed it, in my opinion, though I don't always agree with him. He's right in the sense that after seeing "Batman Begins" and "Spiderman 2," a movie like "Fantastic Four" seems pathetically amateur in comparison. Gigli, indeed.

  • July 7, 2005, 3:52 p.m. CST

    The Gigli Connection

    by MasterWhedon

    While I don't think FF will reach the same lows of Bennifer Picture #1--mainly due to the lack of tabloid glitz (read: public hatred) surrounding its stars--I do think it might be the type of film folks will irrationally throw shit on, simply because they see others throwing shit its way. Again, I watched Gigli because I wanted to see what the hype was about. It IS, most definitely, a bad movie, but it's not nearly as bad as it was made out to be. I fear the same thing happening to Fantastic Four, where it will become the jaded fanboy's ammunition and their thrust to tear down a studio for improperly handling a flagship title, a la Batman and Robin. I will go see the movie and wait to make up my mind, but I'm afraid I already see which way the tide is stemming.

  • July 7, 2005, 3:59 p.m. CST


    by adambalm

    Man am I late to the party, and with very little to say might I add. I saw this review last night, couldn't think of anything to add. I then saw it this morning, read s'more of the talkbacks, shrugged, and closed the window. Now, after reading through the 300 or so posts, I find myself with a growing anger, and I'm not sure how to express it. This probably has something to do with not hearing back yet from a friend who was moving to england, after what happened in London today. Strangely enough, the one thing I'm not angry at is the makers of this movie. That's like blaming Bush for failing when he tries to make real words come out of his mouth. You know, that reminds me of my Rottweiler who always gets his big, cartoon-like head stuck in a box of milk bones trying to get the last one at the bottom. No, I find myself becoming more angry at geekdom who set themselves up to be 'pleasantly surprised' at this hammered shit. I see the same opinion fatigue at other movies all the time. Take War of the Worlds for instance. See, geeks can only stand to hold the same opinion for so long before they get bored and do an about-face. Geeks are Athenians, as Paul wrote about them. They live in wait to talk about some new thing. People had been saying how much it 0wned for so long that no movie could live up to it. The inevitable backlash followed as people entered the theatre waiting to be born anew in its brilliance. In cases like this, I find it's best to listen to those who haven't been following the movie since it was vaporware, those without the baggage of expectations and the entire history of production with them. I look to the critics who aren't also rumor mongers. (nothing wrong with that, Mark Felt was one) And in the case of War of the Worlds, about 80% of these mainstream critics were pleased. Now, this talkback is filled to the brim with the inevitable backlash of people who have dined on a nutritious diet of hate for this film for over a year, and nothing could be as bad as people expected. Childe was spot on with his prediction that Harry would quietly back down after seeing this movie, because all of fandom did it. This is maddening because a movie that about 21% of the critics who walked into this movie without baggage, shredded this thing. But the trend of hating this movie has run its course. Me, I'm gonna go see it this weekend, and try to do so with new eyes if I can.

  • July 7, 2005, 4:16 p.m. CST

    You know, I made myself watch...

    by Childe Roland

    ...Batman and Robin a second time after almost becoming violently ill the first time through. I just really wanted to be sure it was as bad as I remembered (kind of like when I buy a bag of those fluffy orange candy peanuts - which look kind of like the Thing's pecker, I suppose - every other year or so and end up getting sick after one or two). And I can confidently say that Batman and Robin deserves every bit of harsh criticism it ever received. Even Uma Thurman was unwatchable in it (and I'd pay good money to watch her take a crap). But movies like that are truly rare. A fair number of bad movies are at least laughably bad and have MST3K potential (I'm thinking of From Dusk 'til Dawn at the moment). I don't think even Ebert's review of F4 (which was less glowing but more fair than Harry's) makes it out to be Batman and Robin bad or even MST3K bad (which the Corman version definitely is). It may just end up being Revenge of the Sith bad: not bad for a prequel (comic book movie), better than average for a Star Wars (Marvel) movie, but not a very good film in the grand scnheme of things. Guess we'll see this weekend.

  • July 7, 2005, 4:35 p.m. CST

    Jessica Alba comments - Guyver and stuff

    by Krazeyivan

    Dark Angel Season 1 rocked and Jessica alba showed real potential, get her matched to a quality script - a great director say ooohhh James Cameron and then wait for everyone to eat humble pie, oscars are a fuckin joke who cares, shit people get them. Good actors get great scripts, great directors and get to shine. If suits push you or the project round what the fuck are u meant to do! Just to finish Sean Penn is a miserable bastard with no sense of humour - in the 80's he loved to kick shit out of photographers I liked him then, now he is up his own ass - your an actor - thats it - fucking plumbers do a more important job in the scheme of things, smile you cunt! Anyone remember the guyver film, I lied parts of that. Plus the best manga series to my mind is the legend of the four dragon kings. Thats the end of my rant, Fox suck - there .... done

  • July 7, 2005, 5:14 p.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    I have not yet seen the movie, but, more importantly, I think you have me confused with someone else. I take great pride in not being an irrational Hater, on this site or elsewhere. I legitimately try to give each movie its due, try and see it for what it is, and I do not participate in unnecessary bashing. I've actually been known in my own personal circles to be a little soft on movies--even bad ones--if they give me even a partial rush (i.e. I love all three Star Wars prequels). I do agree with you that there are plenty of folks who trash films like FF based on glimpses of trailers and out of focus set photos, but I really haven't been one of those guys. Serisouly, check the old posts. Much as I didn't like the music or text, I thought the first FF trailer was okay. Not great by any means, but okay. The more I've seen and the more I've heard from those who've seen it (whose opinions I trust), leads me to believe that they've missed that mark. HOWEVER, I have never said this film will be shit and I have never once insulted or attacked anyone involved in the making of the film. Christ, I'm one of the folks who think X-Men 3 can still be saved. Anyway, Ebert's a guy who's opinion I value, and everything I've heard seems to fall in line with his review, ESPECIALLY THAT LAST SENTENCE. As far as Gigli goes, I was commenting more on public perception of the film and its critical repsonse (and I did happen to point out that Gigli has some average-to-almost-strong pieces). There is no Hate coming from me. And there won't be, even if the movie is crap.

  • July 7, 2005, 5:19 p.m. CST


    by napalm68

    What sort of tosspot plant wrote this review. You wouldn't have thought this person had it in for this film from day one, but the same person gets giddy with excitement seeing a picture of KONG HAND toys. Fark. Yeah, this review has a LOT of credibilty. Fool. I wish the directors had just sent him a box of krispy kreme to shut him up.

  • July 7, 2005, 5:44 p.m. CST

    Just by your inclusion...

    by Childe Roland

    ...of me under the category of haters, I can tell you haven't read my other posts in this or other FF talkbacks, Kai. If you scroll up a bit (or search the site for all things FF), you'll see that I have remained one of the staunchest defenders of not only the "wait-and-see" approach to this movie, but also of most of the things about this film that Harry's been criticizing since day one. In fact, I only started to seriously suspect it might not be as good as I would prefer after reading Ebert's review, which seems pretty even handed in its critiques of the story and character development. But I still intend to see it opening weekend and I still maintain that, even if it is a bad story, the film makers nailed the look of an origin-era Thing and Jessica Alba is just fine casting as the Invisible Girl/Woman.

  • July 7, 2005, 5:55 p.m. CST


    by tango fett

    That's the funniest damn thing I've heard all day. Funny, because franly, it's true. Those guys act like they all wear happy helmets (REN AND STIMPY ROCK).

  • July 7, 2005, 5:56 p.m. CST

    Childe Roland and Kai_Mah'gra

    by MasterWhedon

    Childe, I'll back you up on you being rather even-tempered about this movie. Actually, Kai_Mah'gra, I was thinking and--what's funny is the most I've EVER posted in a FF forum was this very one. I haven't even really given an opinion on this film, much less a negative one. I think you're most definitely getting Childe and I mixed up with others. As for voicing something of an opinion--Childe, I agree with you on the Thing. I prefer the rockier, more angular version, but this is how Kirby first drew him. I also like that it's a guy in a suit, just not that you can occasionally see the foam rubber "folds." Rocks shouldn't look pinched. As for Alba, I've never cared for her particularly, and I suppose she'll be fine. I've just always though of Sue as a mother, or (in the Ultimate 'verse) as the girl next door you can see yourself marrying one day. Alba seems more like the girl you'd woo for months, date for a week and then get dumped by. She doesn't seem comforting. Again, I haven't seen the movie, but these are the notions I bring into the theater. I hope they're off.

  • July 7, 2005, 6:02 p.m. CST


    by Childe Roland

    ...that Alba sentiment is hilarious and hits way too close to home. Trouble is, girls like that DO live next door. And some even become mothers! Then there are those uncomfortable drop-offs after the weekend visits and the ill-advised post-break-up hook-ups because there's nothing else to do while the kid's napping. Still, it's not like they cast a red-headed Chinese woman. That really would've honked a few people off.

  • July 7, 2005, 6:23 p.m. CST

    I think this movie will do okay because of teens and kids

    by andrew coleman

    First weekend might be impressive but then there will be a huge drop. You can tell Fox is nervous from all the advertising also the fact that Charlie and Chocolate factory opens a week after is bad news for them too.

  • July 7, 2005, 6:31 p.m. CST

    Uh, did it just get awkward in here?

    by Serious Black

    I think that's my cue to call it a day. Good luck to all going to see this over the weekend. I think I've changed my mind and will wait for the DVD.

  • July 7, 2005, 6:32 p.m. CST

    Uh, did it just get awkward in here?

    by Serious Black

    I think that's my cue to call it a day. Good luck to all going to see this over the weekend. I think I've changed my mind and will wait for the DVD.

  • ...despite all the weak, elementary-school arguments about "waiting for a movie to come out before you pass judgement"...Congratulations! WE WERE RIGHT! See, children, sometimes you don't have to see something to recognize junk. When will self-deluded apologists figure that out?

  • July 7, 2005, 6:48 p.m. CST


    by BAMF

    You are precisely the sort of deluded apologist of which I speak. Instead of imploring us to spare you, why don't you spare us the spectacle of your endless wallowing in "mindless summer entertainment?" Your implicit tolerance of crap is why Hollywood keeps making it. People like you and adambalm can go in with your rose-colored glasses and see crap with "new eyes" until your blue in the face. Doesn't change the fact that crap is still crap. And no, I'm not going to respond to the infantile call to action: "Have you seen the movie? Or are you basing your rant on a 2-minute trailer?"

  • July 7, 2005, 7:01 p.m. CST


    by docfalken

    I don't know if doughnuts would have kept Harry from writing his review the way he did. I do think that Harry's review comes from his geek conflicts. I mean who doesn't want to see Human Torch zooming through the sky. Who doesn't want Ben Grimm to scream out "It's clobbering time!". The problem is that a complete movie needs to be wrapped around those visual/sound bites. That doesn't seem to be what has happened, instead they picked and chose which legacy elements to include and decided to xerox elements that worked on some other properties (Osborn and Doom similaries). Personally I hope that the movie makes enough money to get us FF movie number 2, but the critics and fans slap Marvel around enough so that they rethink their formula for the next one.

  • July 7, 2005, 7:07 p.m. CST

    Damn Bamf!!

    by docfalken

    I think you should be writing superhero villian dialogue for films. I just reread your post through my son's Darth Vader voice-changer and it made him cry. There really needs to be a film villian that fights movie moguls and shouts out lines like "your implicit tolerance of crap makes me want to pummel you!".

  • July 7, 2005, 7:33 p.m. CST

    Jeez, everyone's coming down from AICN's ivory tower

    by adambalm

    First Harry, now DF. Now that he's here, can I ask if it's intentional that we have to go through two pages to get to Harry's review? I've been noticing this alot lately. If so, why? If not, when will it be fixed? Uh, that sounds a lot more negative than I meant it to.

  • July 7, 2005, 7:42 p.m. CST

    also, docfalken...

    by tango fett

    AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHApuke. The post about the evil dialogue made me laugh out loud, causing most people in my workplace to stare at me. Whoo, party. Also, notice how I barely contribute to the talkback at all. To quote Peter Griffin "Well...that's my momma, hehehehehe"

  • July 7, 2005, 7:43 p.m. CST

    Hook was one of the greatest movies of my childhood!

    by iamnicksaicnsn

    How dare you! The nerve...

  • July 7, 2005, 7:57 p.m. CST

    Two Pages for Harry's Review

    by docfalken

    There are some limitations in the current home-grown software that is being used to manage all of the content on the site. The two clicks thing is one of them and happens when one of Harry's reviews also takes a slot in the "Top Stories" column. Slowly I'm changing out all of the scripts to something newer, faster, better, but that problem I haven't had to address yet. Regarding ivory towers, that is pretty far from the truth. The reason I'm beginning to seem to post more is that I've discovered that if I use my docfalken screen name, Harry doesn't ban me as much as he used to.

  • July 7, 2005, 8:08 p.m. CST

    hey docfalken

    by IamNumber1

    Nothing to say really, just checking to make sure I wasn't banned either

  • July 7, 2005, 8:09 p.m. CST


    by SuperUltraNinja

    whats really important now is getting a captain america movie set in world war 2 with bruce campbell starring made right away. if anyone important is reading this please make it. please.

  • July 7, 2005, 8:41 p.m. CST

    Yes, but......

    by brinkeguthrie

    is it better than "Thunderbirds" from last year? OK- that's it for the movies this year. See ya in 06 for 'CARS' and 007 (assuming EON doesn't screw it up more than they have...)

  • July 7, 2005, 9:15 p.m. CST

    what's up doc?

    by keepcoolbutcare

    What'd you think about my choices for playing Leyner? If it ever does happen though I'd love to see an unknown ala Dustin Hoffman back in the day. But who could direct the thing? And what studio or indie would make it? Leyner certainly isn't as hot a property as he used to be but I still think Et, Tu would translate pretty well to the big screen.

  • July 7, 2005, 9:27 p.m. CST

    John Carter

    by nsomnia

    Harry, please cut the bullshit and tell everyone what is the (small) extent and the (many) limitaions of your "producer" involvement in JCOM, you talk like you actually produce that thing when you really don't.Humble Harry,Humble. NSOMNIA OUT

  • July 7, 2005, 10:28 p.m. CST

    A little perspective...

    by jonwes

    Just for some perspective, Compiled from Rated on a scale of 0 - 100% Spider-man - 83% Spider-man - 73% X-men 2 - 68% X-men - 64% Hulk - 54% Blade 2 - 52% Blade - 45% Daredevil - 42% Blade Trinity - 38% Elektra - 34% Punisher - 33% Right now, Fantastic four is hovering around 41% - 45%, which actually makes me pretty excited about the movie comparing it to how much I enjoyed the other movies its close to. My scale would be similar, though I'd bump X-men 2 up and Punisher as well.

  • July 7, 2005, 10:48 p.m. CST

    I dont know...

    by Kamikaze_Jones

    Part of me wants to avoid this one on the basis that pretty much everybody at AICN has been shitkicking it since forever. But the more I see of it the more I think it could be a fun movie. I don't claim to be a superfan of the FF, although I'm familiar enough with the story to know how it got assraped in the film, but I keep seeing more and more snippets of the movie and thinking it could be good. I don't expect anyt5hing with the resonance and reverence of Spider-Man or Batman Begins, but to be fair I always thought the FF were a little more on the cheesy side than those heroes anyway. Just my opinion, though.

  • July 8, 2005, 12:02 a.m. CST

    is that a put down?

    by keepcoolbutcare

    Hey Kai_Mah'gra if your a chick I would gladly kiss yo ass.

  • July 8, 2005, 12:38 a.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    This thing is getting absolutely savaged over on To be fair, I do plan on seeing the film myself, and I actually try to ignore for the most part, but it's something that's caught my attention. Then again, it's hard to make out how many of these critics are frustrated nerds who wanted to see a "badass, Latverian dictator" Dr. Doom. I'm less convinced than others that the "despotic" Doctor Doom was the way to go. I genuinely can't see the appeal or "complexity" of it, but that doesn't stop people from breaking out the torches and pitchforks over it. It's hard for me to trust the opinions of critics I often respect because of it, because I can't tell how many of them are talking around the fact that they're pissed they didn't get the version of Doctor Doom that was a formative part of their childhood. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

  • July 8, 2005, 12:57 a.m. CST

    On Leyner

    by docfalken

    I just don't know of a New York actor/comedian who could pull off the attitude needed for Et Tu. Maybe Jake Gyllenhall. Maybe Jason Lee. And so I don't get lynched in this TB, should the Thing smoke a cigar in this flick?

  • July 8, 2005, 1:20 a.m. CST

    Jessica alba likes it up the butt.

    by cherrycola

    that has to be the only reason why she's made it in hollywood. Seriously, what demented hollywood agent/producer does'nt like their sex to be twisted and sadistic? Think abou it: jessica needs a blockbuster yet there are a hundred more talented young women to be found yet they DON'T LIKE IT UP THE BUTT. Period. Take jessica into the office, bend her over the desk, snort some coke, tell her what a whore she is and how she'll be a BIG star if she can make it past 10 min. So here, bite down on this whip and take it like a big girl. Now look into the camera and watch yourself on my expensive plasma TeeVee and imagine you're in another place.......And open wide.

  • July 8, 2005, 2:15 a.m. CST

    Saw it tonight.

    by RedFive

    Out of 1:50mins of movie there was 10 mins of cool stuff,the rest is clown shoes.Jessica alba is the worst actress there is and she isnt sue storm by a mile. The dialog and the direction are worse then the roger corman flick and its too bad MARVEL is totaly losing it.

  • July 8, 2005, 2:48 a.m. CST

    fundamentally smoking red weed

    by Darth Philbin

    i was high off my ass when i watched this tonight and loved it. mike chicklets is the shit as the thing and i think this bodysuit stuff is gonna catch on and be the death knell for CGI. i am going to put a petition up on the web on my site so that the movie making people will see it and instead of using CGI to do the Silver Surfer in FF2 they will just shave somebody down and smear silver paint on them like the tin man or that dead bitch in goldfinger - but use silver paint and not gold if you understand the fucking concept. there were a bunch of dorks in the theater including this one dude that had like a 2x fantastic four shirt on but i swear that he was like 5x - it should have said "44DD" on it because that was his fucking bra size. oh well I think I am gonna see this a few more times this weekend but make sure that i am fundamentally more fucked up each time. SPOILER - the Thing says "so no to drugs". FUCK him, fuck nancy reagan and if PLEASE e-mail me if you score red weed - paying $50 a nickel. p.s. how does invisible lady not make her pants and bra disappear but she can make all of the poop in her colon and intestines disappear. would have been cooler to see floating shit and tar on her lungs from all the dope she smoked at MIT. bet she smoked some pole too. I love you all and Jesus too! I just know when I see Murderball high I might never return...

  • July 8, 2005, 5:24 a.m. CST

    Experiment 626

    by Ribbons

    Guess you're not big on reading the TalkBack you post to, huh? Why don't you find my post above and check out exactly what Peyton Reed's "vision" for the Fantastic Four was. I imagine that it would have looked a lot like the movie you're getting now, with possibly less craptacular dialogue.

  • July 8, 2005, 11:36 a.m. CST

    21% on Rottentomatoes!!!!!

    by nsomnia

    They just might beat Catwoman as the worst reviewed movie of the year, and Harry "kind of liked it"...stand your ground Harry, but don't sink!

  • July 8, 2005, 2:52 p.m. CST

    So, will Marvel get the message?

    by ejcarter9

    All this critical disdain will hopefully serve to remind Marvel of what it used to do right. Hopefully Avi will put X3 back on the right track or shelve it for a few years... hell, shelve ALL Marvel productions for a while until they can get over themselves and start doing good movies again.

  • July 8, 2005, 4:15 p.m. CST

    Sequel? Hell No! Not With This Group.

    by Roboteer

    This is a sad day for the entire genre and FF fans in particular. One could tell from the beginning when first Peyton Reed and then Tim Story were picked to direct. Not only were they obviously out of their league with the material, but couldn't even handle the relationships (as witnessed by the two flops they did prior to being picked). The character portrayal may be worse than Corman's version. The writing, also horrid, was on the wall when Story was far more concerned about making this an affirmative action project than capturing any of the comic's appeal or continuity. And the worst fears about Jessica Alba came true in spades. One can only hope that this will do poorly enough to shelve any idea of a sequel with this company of miscreants. Though Chiklis might deserve better. If ever brought back it needs a long rest and completely new personnel top to bottom. If The Bat can get a do-over for virtually no reason, there may be hope for the FF someday. I just hope this is Gigli bad and Arad is made accountable for this mess by the Board. God may forgive him, but I never will.

  • July 8, 2005, 5:07 p.m. CST

    What could have been...

    by halfmadjesus

    That's what Harry's talking about, and that's what anyone familiar at all with the FF will be saying to themselves after seeing this film. What could have been if, say, someone with a passion for the material like Sam Raimi has a passion for Spider-Man had been at the helm. What could have been if the creative and suit-types responsible for concocting this had adhered more strictly to the classic Lee & Kirby source material. It's a testament to the characters, frankly, that the film works on any level at all. I have a feeling the type of moviegoer who digs insipid, pieces of popcorn fluff like XXX and National Treasure will think Fantastic Four: The Movie is fine and dandy - it's that kind of picture, really. A glossy distraction with a few likable characters you might not mind spending a couple of hours with. That's what Fox wants - an easily digestable hit . And maybe they'll get it. From a fan standpoint, though, the success of something like this is dangerous because it sends a message to studios that they can approach these comic films from a focus group standpoint, crap out something totally mediocre, and still make money. Which means Hollywood'll go back to formula again and again like they did with FF, but maybe they'll apply it to your favorite character(s) next time. Bottom line: The movie's harmless like your average, dumb, summer blockbuster. It has zero rewatch value. Speaking again as a fan - I'm the kind who will go out 3-4 times on an opening weekend to support a well-made comic book film like the Spider-Man or X-Men movies. I'll buy the DVD - sometimes even the multiple director's cuts and special editions the studios like to double-dip us for. When Hollywood caters to me, I spend a lot of my money rewarding them. I saw FF on a matinee, and have no desire to see it again, ever. I will not be going back to the theatre. I will not be buying the DVD. It remains to be seen if Fox's plan to cater to the masses on this will pay more for them in the long run. Is it better to make a picture that opens big, drops off quickly, sells a lot of DVDs its first couple of weeks, then is ultimately forgotten? Or is it better to at least TRY to aim for something with a little substance, a little potential for lasting beyond a 3-day opening weekend? That's really the question at hand now, and it's up to the general moviegoing public to answer it.

  • July 8, 2005, 7:16 p.m. CST

    Why are Harry's negative reviews so gross?

    by wackedfuck

    Why is it whenever Harry gives a film a bad or mediocre review, he always says gross things? For example, in this review he talks about shit encrusted diamonds and in the Blade 3 review, he talks about crusty vaginas. Guess what, Harry? You don't have to make us want to puke to get your point across.

  • July 8, 2005, 8:15 p.m. CST

    I've seen better actors on Skinamax

    by M-dubb

    Jeez was Reed Richards bad. Also, how did Reed, Sue and Johnny know Ben was on the bridge? Whenever there's a traffic jam I always think, hmmm probably The Thing.

  • July 8, 2005, 9:04 p.m. CST

    And to contribute even less...

    by tango fett

    I liked the Punisher, maybe even loved it. And I saw BB again and it was just as good. 3 of the 4 people I saw it with say it's their favorite movie and they aren't even remotely fanboys.

  • July 8, 2005, 11:26 p.m. CST

    "I've seen better actors on Skinamax"

    by Voice O. Reason

    Jessica Alba should be on Skinamax. No, really.

  • July 9, 2005, 4:38 a.m. CST

    Wow! That was a kid movie. I did not like it at all.

    by Mr. Profit

    The film could have been great but it was straight garbage that the kiddies in the audience ate up and clapped at the end. It was bad. And the FF werent even heroes. All the issues and situations of peril were created by them. They never saved anyone. The sequence on the bridge was all because of The Thing. Doom never threatened the world. He only fought with them. The FF didn't save NY. Doom came off as a shady guy with sugar in his tank who was on some "I Dont see you Mrs. Richards!" type shady shit and zapped his silly powers to put holes in people. And his motivation? His scarred face and tanked company? Wow...The whole turning back to Ben Grimm but then turning into The Thing to save Reed was silly. I can understand doing that in part 2 maybe, but there was no character development to justify why The Thing who was in cry baby mode all film would want to not be Ben Grimm again. And the effects looked pretty dated. Jessica Alba went in and out from terrible to merely OK. The only thing they got kinda right was the relationships between the core 4. I do expect this movie to be huge. I went to a 2 O'Clock showing yesterday that was not only packed, but packed with kids.

  • July 9, 2005, 4:53 a.m. CST

    And Alicia Masters is the flyest blind chick I have ever seen.

    by Mr. Profit

    Seriously she was really pretty. Not to say blind people are ugly, but man she matched right down to her accessories and make up in both scenes she was in. Who dressed her and put on her make up? Because how can a blind woman put on Eye Shadow?

  • July 9, 2005, 4:54 a.m. CST

    One more thing.... Was Ben Grimm's wife Tina from Friday the

    by Mr. Profit

  • July 9, 2005, 10:56 a.m. CST

    by silverdog

  • July 9, 2005, 11:07 a.m. CST

    Well, it's on it's way to a big weekend unless word of m

    by Mr. Profit

  • July 9, 2005, 12:07 p.m. CST

    Pretty "meh" but the theater was full and they clapped

    by Homer Sexual

    I didn't even go early because I figured it wouldn't be crowded. The teens where I work all think the movie looks lame, but the audience was almost all families and the kids, mostly about 8-11, ate it up. They clapped at Stan Lee's cameo and applauded at the end. The best I can say is that the special effects weren't as bad as I expected. In fact the whole movie wasn't as bad as I'd heard. Not that it was good, it wasn't. But it appears to be a hit.

  • July 9, 2005, 12:14 p.m. CST

    $21 million, beeyotch!

    by Hiruu

    My oh my, the movie colleced 20.8 million, and the crowds ate the movie up! Punk ass fanboys with a grudge because they didn't use there "pet" director, or whatever else can eat a dick!

  • July 9, 2005, 12:25 p.m. CST

    You tell them Hiruu

    by mpfanatic

    Bitches you couldnt kill this movie this time A holes

  • July 9, 2005, 1:02 p.m. CST

    point taken, Hiruu...

    by HypeEndsHere

    Despite "there" when you need "their".

  • July 9, 2005, 2:13 p.m. CST

    Hiruu and mpfanatic

    by halfmadjesus

    Wow...what a victory. Now we can all look forward to more half-assed, dumbed-down comic adaptations created plot-point by plot-point in a studio boardroom, because Fox just learned these things don't have to appeal to anyone beyond the age of 12 years-old to make money. Kids don't need quality - just splashy special effects, lots of goofy humor, and a loud marketing campaign to brainwash them into seeing the film. Fantastic Four = Scooby-Doo.

  • July 9, 2005, 3:12 p.m. CST

    Fantastic Flawed

    by JHova420

    I saw this movie and it was not good. If it isn't Spider-Man or X-Men then Marvel can't get it right. In which case the credit should go to Rami and Singer (though now he's gone on to fuck up Superman, well see how that franchise works with Ratner) I think it's time for Avi Arad to step down, it clear he cars more about his ego than these characters. It's sad because this could have been kick ass but instead it sucked.

  • July 9, 2005, 3:14 p.m. CST

    Not great, but still a very good flick

    by Immortal_Fish

    First -- I'm not a friggin plant. Must have pissed off enough of you in other TB by now. But I *am* a fanboy. Not afraid to admit I'm an FF fanboy either. Hundreds and hundreds of issues spanning nearly 20 years. Love these characters. Hated the crawl up until I saw it today. Hated all the major departures from the source material I'd been hearing. Did I love the film? No, yet still found it to be an enjoyable adaptation, not unlike the X movies. Cannot understand how you people allow yourselves to wallow in your own contradiction. Singer's adaptation of X-Men was far less faithful than Story's FF. Doom was not handled well, just like Nightcrawler. Yes, Doom was more Simon Cowell than meglomaniacal genius, inventor and sorceror. In the comics, Kurt takes traditional studies to become a priest. In Singer's take, he's an extremeist zealot that engages in self mutilation to atone for what he mistakes for sins. In the comics, Kurt hated what he went through in the German circus. In Singer's movie, he relishes every chance to exclaim how he was known as the magnificent Nightcrawler. Gimme a break, you people. You can't laud one movie that's leaps and bounds away from the source material while hating another that merely diverts here and there. The way I see it, the FF movie is an amalgam of the traditional and ultimate FF comics. Yeah, Doom appears to have been fucked over, but there was enough hinting throughout the film to foreshadow a more traditional Doom in the sequel, if there is one. It was an origin, people. It's what led up to Doom assuming the mantle of Latveria. Doom's only motivation in the book was a single scar on his face, so I bought movie Doom's motivation more easily -- that as a man losing eveything including his prettyboy face -- if he can't have anything then no one can. Have to admit McMahon did good up until he put the mask on. Too soft spoken. No classic Doom monologuing. Would have preferred Geoffrey Rush or Alan Rickman, but McMahon ended up putting in a good effort. Way better than I'd expected. I also didn't buy the relationship between he and Sue, but at the end Sue says there was no relationship anyway. It was just a front, with the subtext ofit being her way of recapturing Reed's attention. Don't any of you haters listen? Like that scene on the bridge, Ben did not start it no matter how many of you try to convince yourselves he did. Ben was only starting to get used to the changes, including his massive weight. Remember how he had to remember to step off the elevator *after* the bridge scene? The accident stemmed from an unfortunate consequence of the beam buckling underneath him as he approached the suicider. He managed to counter the fall and still save the guy, which resulted in the car crash, a domino effect. When things cooled down, a gas cannister exploded, sending the firetruck into a spin. Things were fine up until that point, and they didn't intentionally blow up the cannister! If you think the FF caused it all, then you must admit that the X-Men put civilians in danger at the train station when the Brotherhood showed up. The FF didn't save lives? Then how do you consider the firemen got back onto the bridge? Did the mutants save any lives in X1? You could argue that in the closing scene they saved the population of Manhattan, but wasn't that just a side-effect of stopping Magneto? The FF didn't use their powers together as a team? Then how do you explain the way Doom was taken down at the end? Both the fighting and the stopping. It was a more satisfying sequence than in during the final act of X1 in the Statue of Liberty, where Grey and Storm shoot Logan up to the torch -- the only scene in that film I recall where they used their powers together as a team. At least the FF were still learning their abilities throughout the movie, unlike the X-Men who had been training together since they were teens. Sure there were plot conveniences in the FF that didn't need to be. Ben getting cured was a groaner and again not wanting to be cured at the end of the FF is about as stupid as Magneto not having ripped the adamantium from Logan at any time during X1 and X2. Doom managing to turn Ben against Reed was as improbable as Xavier and Magneto having built Cerebro together. Gruffud played Reed too smirky and cheeky while Alba played Sue more viciously confrontational than she is in the comics, but they did nowhere near as awful as the actors who portrayed Sabertooth and Storm in X1. Bottom line, Singer had less respect for his source material than Story did. You bitches just refuse to admit it. I've allowed myself to enjoy X1 and X2 for the adaptations they turned out to be, despite the vast differences from the comic roots you people claim to be so faithful. Will you allow yourself to enjoy FF? There's enough classic FF stuff in there if you're willing to look.

  • July 9, 2005, 3:58 p.m. CST

    This will drop off harder than The Hulk, here's why...

    by Mr. Profit

    The Hulk had a horrible second weekend and so will the FF. This weekend The FF will make a killing because every other movie was "dark". (Sidebar) When did the American movie going public become so pussy that Batman Begins and WOTW are considered "Dark"? As for the film, I did not like the FF film at all. It wasn't even so bad that it was fun good. It was just ordinary. With all the kids happily seeing this wackness this weekend, they will all have their attention diverted next weekend when Willy Wonka is released and makes a killing. But did anyone really expect this film to flop when mediocrity like The Grudge can open with 40 Million? I really do think though that Marvel will start to fall off now. Spidey 3 and X3 wont reel in the big bucks like their predecessors. It's DC's turn now.

  • July 9, 2005, 4:23 p.m. CST

    CHUD can suck my nuts.

    by Saluki

    CHUD has went downhill since Devin has taken over as KING OF ALL THE UNIVERSE.

  • July 9, 2005, 4:28 p.m. CST

    RT's %'s, FF Box Office, Ebert reviews, NSYNCER

    by The Heathen

    I believe Dr. Boll's "Alone in the Dark" is still the worst reviewed movie of the year (and possibly ever?) with 1%. Now that's a moldy mother fucker.The FF will make over $50 mil this first weekend, but I'm guessing the drop off % will be pretty steep. We as fans of comics and movies in general should expect more, especially from the longest running Marvel comic. Speaking of memorable Ebert reviews, check out his "Undead" review, funny stuff. And Justin Timberlake better not mess with Batman. Please, please, please keep him away from it. I can see Cameron Diaz playing Harley Quinn already. Noooo!!!

  • July 9, 2005, 6:43 p.m. CST


    by lindyboy

    I think everyone else has said what I have suspected and feared since the first trailer. This however was *not* a big deal for me as the FF are not as iconic as say Spiderman. Still my brand new and growing by the day fear is that FF is a prelude to the disasters to come from Marvel better than average film run.

  • July 9, 2005, 9:17 p.m. CST

    FF was a good movie

    by tiger79772

    FF was a pretty good movie. It was a good thing that assraped the source material, because the source material pretty much sucked. FF has always been a cheesy comic book aimed towards kids. Fox was smart to make the movie geared towards kids they will make lots of money for this move. If they had stayed true to the source material nobody would even go see the movie,except the 60 or 70 fanboys on here who jerk off while reading FF comics because it would have been terrible. And could somebody please explain to me how the special effects sucked. They were much better than the special effects in batman begins. Although batman begins is the better movie. And to all you Jessica Alba haters, your just hating on her because you know she would never give it up to ugly m***F****ers like you. Which was the smarter choice for fox make a movie which stayed true to the source material, which like 60 or 70 masterbating fanboys would show up, Or make FF geared towards kids like its always been and get millions of kids across the country to watch the movie and make millions of dollars? The choice was pretty obvious and fox made the right one.

  • July 9, 2005, 11:06 p.m. CST

    Go See This Movie and Decide for YOURSELF

    by ImBatman

    I regularly check out the TalkBacks on movies I am interested in seeing. If, for no other reason, to read the ramblings and opinions of other fanboys like myself. But really guys, why take Harry&#39;s word for it? If you are really a FAN of Science Fiction and Comics, then how could you possibly be swayed by one persons&#39; (or even a hundred peoples&#39;) opinions on a movie YOU WANT TO SEE!! So someone didn&#39;t like it - THEIR LOSS! And they have my sympathy!! I haven&#39;t seen FF yet, as I prefer going to the matinee during the weekdays when the theatre isn&#39;t so crowded or noisy. BUT, I WILL SEE IT ON MONDAY, JULY 11TH. And if it is even 1/10th as good as the previews and trailers I have seen, then I WILL LOVE IT!! I loved DAREDEVIL, both SPIDER-MAN movies, both X-MEN movies (X1 was better), BATMAN BEGINS (THE Batman, at last), LXG, THE HULK and even ELECTRA. And the First 2 Keaton BATMAN Movies, as well as the first 2 SUPERMAN movies. I enjoyed them all because I am a FAN of Sci-Fi and COMICS for almost 44 of my 46 Years of existence. And there were changes to the characters in EVERY ONE of the above mentioned films. But that is what Hollywierd does - they have to change things around for the medium, which is film instead of paper. What works in the Sci-fi or Comic medium does NOT always translate well to the screen. Plus, the Studios are in the business to make MONEY, not satisfy a very SMALL minority of the viewing public. So Harry didn&#39;t rave about how great FF was, So he didn&#39;t like it. Who gives a FUCK? I don&#39;t, and a real FAN wouldn&#39;t either. All you haters are worse than the so called "plants", as not only do you NOT have a mind of your own, You think everyone should agree with you and just submit to your will and opinion. Reality Check, dudes. It is still a free country, and although I may not agree with you, I will defend TO THE DEATH your right to your opinion, regardless of how insane I may think it is. Opinions are just like Assholes - Everybody has one! P.S. What does PISS ME OFF is people trying to post spoilers without adding <SPOILERS> to the subject line. Oh, and especially those who would not only spoil a movie, but do so while posting said spoiler as a hijacked thread. In other words, this is a FF thread, NOT a War of the Worlds thread, so post your Spoilers there. And you know who I am talking about!!

  • July 10, 2005, 12:36 a.m. CST

    For once I agree with Harry.

    by Damer1

    I think his assessment was spot on in this case. This still doesn&#39;t get you a pass for Blade II big fella.

  • July 10, 2005, 1:23 a.m. CST

    Brobdingnag said it all for me.

    by Voice O. Reason

    Seriously. Good job.

  • July 10, 2005, 1:29 a.m. CST

    Saw it tonight and at at the end a kid in the row behind me said

    by axelfoley

    I laughed. It was good time fun, exactly what I thought this movie was contrary to the crap this movie is getting. The audiences seemed to love it, the critics depise it. This was better than I expected, no really. It was a fun movie. Albeit, I had some problems with Grimm making a crack about Johnny having blond hair(which he does in the comics) but in the movie Evan had JET FUCKING BLACK HAIR. I also HATED how Doom&#39;s voice was the exact same with the mask. It just looked like some guy talking in a S and M flick. Other than that, everything came out OK. And the reality of this IMHO is despite its flaws its STILL better than the Hulk. Thoughts?

  • July 10, 2005, 3:48 a.m. CST

    Lay off the HULK, dammit

    by Ribbons

    I get that you guys don&#39;t like the movie, but man if you can&#39;t seem to stop talking about it. Better than &#39;Hulk?&#39; Try &#39;Catwoman.&#39; Or does repeating something over and over in a public forum make it feel like you&#39;re giving information and not an opinion?

  • July 10, 2005, 4:52 a.m. CST

    I swear he&#39;s talking about Star Wars Ep3

    by Mennon

    The acting, action, CG,&#12288;that all sucked in Ep3 too!

  • July 10, 2005, 8:51 a.m. CST

    I dont think anyone is denying that Jessica Alba is one bad ass

    by Mr. Profit

    But being hot doesn&#39;t make you a great actress. It doesn&#39;t even make you a good one. It&#39;s like she doesn&#39;t even try. you would have thought that Alba would have gone to a couple of classes to get better. But right now she&#39;s in the same acting league as Hilary Duff. Only thing she&#39;s fucking fly so that&#39;s been saving her ass. And please dont say her lame performance was because she wasn&#39;t given enough to do. Real actors can make the most of the little scenes their in. And didn&#39;t The Hulk open to 24 million on the Friday of it&#39;s release? We all know how that story ended. It was never debated that the FF wouldn&#39;t make huge opening weekend money, but does it have legs?

  • July 10, 2005, 10:22 a.m. CST

    If you&#39;ve seen the Hulk you&#39;d realize that this was info

    by axelfoley

  • July 10, 2005, 12:25 p.m. CST

    Exposure to this movie......

    by Acerbic Norseman

    has fundamentally altered my DNA. Doom was just terrible and the story absolutely sucked ass. The guy that played the Torch did a decent job. Ben Grimm had some redeeming qualities too but they over milked the "my hands are too big to pick up stuff" and the scene where he had to get out of the elevator was groan inducing. I laughed the hardest at the product placement during the scene that took place outside of the sports arena. I had a sudden urge to purchase a Pepsi product and when the Whopper(TM) caught fire and I noticed the flame broiled slogan, I nearly pissed myself. Good times...... As I walked out of the theatre wishing I had the last hour and forty minutes of my life back, I overheard the two twenty somethings in front of me telling each other how awesome the movie was. "Really awesome man, really AWESOME!" One man&#39;s hell is another man&#39;s heaven, or so I&#39;ve read.

  • July 10, 2005, 12:59 p.m. CST

    $56 Million Weekend

    by mpfanatic

    We are pretty much guaranteed a sequel now...lets hope its more like X2 next time. I still enjoyed FF though, and think ya&#39;ll need to relax

  • July 10, 2005, 1:04 p.m. CST

    Clearly Designed for Kids

    by Ultraman2000

    Although I considered the film a stultifyingly dull and disjointed mess, my boys (aged ten and eight years-old) considered it a step above "Batman Begins." It appears the filmmakers went out of their way to ensure the story was accessible to the elementary school crowd, hence, the clunky expository dialogue and Looney Tunes-simple visual cues. I&#39;m not excusing the lack of craftsmanship here; rather, I&#39;m simply pointing out the film is intended for a different audience than Nolan&#39;s Batman film or "War of the Worlds." I have to agree with Harry&#39;s observation, though, that "The Incredibles" is a far superior effort aimed at the same group.

  • July 10, 2005, 3:22 p.m. CST

    Better than I Expected, Family Enjoyed It

    by MrStinger

    Maybe it was my low expectations, but FF was a much more enjoyable movie than I expected, given its generally negative feedback and reviews. It didn&#39;t get everything right, but even the iconic Superman didn&#39;t (Brando as Jor-El, Krypton as an ice planet, Luthor wearing wigs), nor did X-Men (Wolverine too tall, Rogue too young), but, like those two much-loved films, the things it got right (Johnny, Reed, and Ben&#39;s charactes) exceed the ones it got wrong (Sue and Doom). I hope there&#39;e a sequel, and it&#39;s more like X2 or Spiderman 2, improving on the original material while jettisoning some of the mistakes. Bring on the Surfer and Galactus!

  • July 10, 2005, 3:45 p.m. CST

    Well harry all the bashing you need was for nothing, the film bl

    by The Founder

    FOX is alm that they managed to pull off a number 1 postion with all the bad reviews this film got. They can&#39;t be happy about that. The movie could&#39;ve made that much more with positive reviews. Hopefully FOX will put together a better creative team for the sequel.

  • July 10, 2005, 3:48 p.m. CST

    I may be to early to talk sequel until after next week, but FOX

    by The Founder

  • July 10, 2005, 3:59 p.m. CST

    I can&#39;t believe people are defending this movie and bashing

    by andrew coleman

    Are you people insane! F4 was really boring and not funny all the way until the last ten minutes. This thing was a mess and way too choppy. They cut a lot out it seems since there are scenes in the trailer that are not in the movie. Alicia&#39;s big scene was cut as was Reed and Sue talking in what looks like a movie theater. Many scenes were lit so badly that I started to laugh. Also I saw this in a half packed theater in LA where at the end people were booing and one guy was talking as he left saying "I fell asleep in the middle of the movie", when I heard that I realized I could have done the same thing and woke right as Doom put the mask on and I wouldn&#39;t have missed anything. People who fold their cards to this movie either work for Fox or have simply brainwashed themselves into thinking its good because its the only F4 movie they will have for like another ten years before it is remade again by Fox.

  • July 10, 2005, 4:17 p.m. CST

    When you bash Batman Begins and praise The Fantastic Four, you l

    by Mr. Profit

    And when you also equate Box Office with Quality. And Batman is far from a flop at 175 million in the US so far. That is an example of Good word of mouth. The FF movie has no legs. Come back next week with a huge I TOLD YOU SO if the film makes over 25 mil next weekend. I seriously doubt that it will. And no Im not a fan boy mad about what I wanted my vision of the FF to be. I was never really a fan or collected FF comics, I just knew who they were and who they had beef with. This movie was sloppy filmmaking that in the right hands could have been waaay better.

  • July 10, 2005, 4:28 p.m. CST

    I enjoyed it

    by Eclectic Fan

    I&#39;m gonna go out on a limb here and disagree with the pack. I really, really liked this movie. I&#39;m a fan of the comics, and I think the film did a fine job of bringing forth the relationships in this group. The Fantastic Four always seemed more real to me than any of the other Marvel characters with their bickering and teasing. They seemed to have a deeper family relationship going on than any other "group" of supereheroes. F4 were always comical superheroes. They weren&#39;t dark like Batman or in hiding like the legions of other comic book heroes. The grudgingly accepted their fate --and the attention it received -- and dealt with it as best they could. I hate that we have such a focus on special effects when we see and discuss movies any more. If the effects work, they shouldn&#39;t be noticeable. We talk about the effects in a movie like they&#39;re the most important aspect and a movie sucks if the effects are bad. My position is that if a plot is strong enough and the acting is good, and you&#39;re really sucked into the film, you shouldn&#39;t notice the effects at all. They should fit in seamlessly to the film as a whole. All that said: whoever did Jessica Alba&#39;s makeup went way overboard. She&#39;s much too beautiful to have to be covered in so much paint. The clown makeup should be reserved for old ladies.

  • July 10, 2005, 5:41 p.m. CST

    plant business (on imdb)

    by drjones

    i&#39;m not shocked by all things planty anymore. last summer a couple of friends on mine took over the part time job of filling crappy target group chat rooms with "i&#39;ve seen this movie and it freaking rocks" tirades about some crappy teen movie. so there was a time when i imagined plants as just bad guys in black suits sitting in front of their pcs with a big grin, happy about the innocent public they tease with their reviews or telling. but the reality is that -as almost every business in the modern capitalistic world does- even plant business lacks identification with it&#39;s product and corporation and a certain quality of their product. infact plants are poor 18 year old boys and girls who just try to earn some bucks in their spare time in order to buy a shirt for less than 20 $.

  • July 10, 2005, 5:43 p.m. CST

    Fantastic Four is number 1 this weekend

    by quentintarantado

    That&#39;s a wakeup call to all us nerds. We don&#39;t exactly rule the world. Yet. Fantastic Four earned $56M this weekend, bumping War of the Worlds to no. 2, doing better business than X2 ($54M) during its debut weekend. To add humiliation to the geeks and nerds, FF is THE movie that pulled Hollywood out of its 19 week slump. Not Batman, not Sith, not WOTW. I think FF did well because a lot of people didn&#39;t know the comic that well, saw the trailers and thought it would be fun. I&#39;m going to see it myself this weekend.

  • July 10, 2005, 6:27 p.m. CST

    Why Not Like Both FF and Batman?

    by MrStinger

    Enjoyed them both, as did my son, for different reasons--Batman was dark, intense, and serious, while FF was lighthearted and fun. Even Harry gave them both positive reviews, just one stronger than the other. Liking one doesn&#39;t mean you have to hate the other. Have some range of emotion, people.

  • July 10, 2005, 6:43 p.m. CST

    Anyone who added to Fantastic Four&#39;s box office this weekend

    by IndustryKiller

    The studios can make 500 shit comic films in a row that tank and not think for a second about improving the quality, but when one shit comic flick slips through they say THIS IS WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT! They sit there like vermin and wait for the disgusting average filmgoing public to affirm their belief that they want shitty mindless comic book dreck and now that they have with Fantastic Four we are gonna get NOTHING but horrible garbage until the movies get so bad that the whole trend finally eats itself. But even knowing that some of you stupid assholes just had to go see every comic film that comes out no matter how awful you know it&#39;s going to be, even know that you do an incredible disservice to the film community by condoning this garbage. Well then enjoy your god awful RATner directed X3, you have certainly fucking earned it.

  • July 10, 2005, 7:44 p.m. CST

    Just GO and see it for yourself!!!

    by MrSpunkmeister2u

    I can&#39;t tell you how many bad reviews I&#39;ve read about the F4. And what&#39;s worse is I&#39;ve seen people post that weren&#39;t going to see the movie based on those reviews. Come on people, make a decision for yourself. I have to admit I was "dreading" seeing the movie based on the reviews I&#39;ve read here. However, I decided to see the movie and form my OWN opinion. Granted, this is coming from somone who loves all the old Toho Godzilla flicks and even owns the old Roger Corman F4 movie. Movies of this sort always have so much hype that they rarely live up to anyones expectations. F4 fell beneath my own expectations but I went in with "suspension of disbelief" and an open mind prepared to "enjoy" a movie. And that&#39;s exactly what I did, I truly enjoyed the movie. Is it flawless? By no means. It does sport some cheesy sfx especially the space scenes and the first daylight action scene on the bridge. But I went in with my imagination in tact and looked past all the nitpicky faults and enjoyed it for what it was. I saw someones post nitpicking about the F4 emblem on the costumes and the fact that it came later and should not have turned invisable, stretched or resisted fire. So what??? I can&#39;t believe that someone would judge a whole movie on such an insignificant blooper. Bottomline, the movie is fun. Go see it yourself. That is, go see it if you want to enjoy it and have a good time. But if you&#39;re seeing it just so you can pick it apart then just stay at home and save yourself the trouble. So there&#39;s my 2 cents worth. No go forth and have a fantastic time!!!

  • July 10, 2005, 8:38 p.m. CST

    I&#39;ve seen it twice this weekend

    by antonphd

    brobdingnag said it perfect! Every superhero movie isn&#39;t serious. This movie was better the second time around! And you guys who complain that the FF aren&#39;t true to the comic... what comic are you reading? Having seen it twice I&#39;d have to say that it was exactly like the comic but with one single difference... no magic. And you know what... that&#39;s cool cause magic and scifi superpowers just don&#39;t mix well in a 90 minute movie format. And they were smart to make Sue Storm have the force field powers right off the bat cause as a superhero in the begining... she was kinda lame. I think that they did a perfect job and maybe if they had more money they could have some a better climax... BUT... and this is what I like best about the FF... unlike some superhero movies... the fight was not epic right off the bat before they even have time to get good at their powers... I mean, come on, how are they suddenly epic warriors just because they have superpowers... they did the same thing spiderman did... they kept the fight on par with the skills of the group. Complain about that. You guys aren&#39;t the experts in film or comics that you claim to be... I am just a casual fan at 31 and I catch on faster than you guys do.

  • July 10, 2005, 8:39 p.m. CST

    F4 Movie

    by theartman

    I have been a comic collector for the last twenty years, and I thought it was as good as the first Spiderman.I saw it with a group of friends and we are all mid 30&#39;s. We thought it was pretty good actually, not perfect, but good. I would say 4 stars out of 5.

  • July 10, 2005, 9:10 p.m. CST

    PROBABLE Sequel

    by David Assholehof

    Ok, primates, here&#39;s yet another gaggle of opinions form a generation-comic elder. FF is a mixed bag, just like X1 was. It led into a pretty good X2. This FF movie had a few sparks of coolness, but generally, the writing was flawed and the direction was uninspired. 70% CRAP, 30% RESPECTABLE. It also fell prey to the typical Hollywood formulas ("Now I&#39;m the thing... Now I&#39;m NOT! Woohoo! Wait, now I want to be, SHAZAM!" LAME, see number 1 again.). Now, can a kick-ass sequel with true flame-on be made? YES. Here are the 4 ingredients required. 1) Better writing. Duh. 2) Namor or Surfer/Galactus in, Doom out. Galactus is probably too big for one movie (Hint, hint Avi...), so lead into him with Surfer in 2 and then Big G in 3. Doom does NOT come back. He&#39;s wrecked. Who ever thought up his angle should be fired, multiple times. And take back his stapler. 3) Improve Mr. Fantastic&#39;s stretch effects. That scene where he "grabbed" the Thing, egads. 4) Peter Berg directing. This movie needs the coolness of The Rundown. If not this, he needs to do the wolverine spin-off with the Miller/Hand short story as a basis.

  • July 10, 2005, 9:24 p.m. CST

    I saw it TWICE Too. I ENJOYED it!

    by jonwes

    Mwa ha ha. I&#39;m starting to think Harry should play the Mole Man in the sequel, and some of the talkbackers here can be his mindless Moloids. I&#39;m certain there&#39;d be a lot of cheers when the FF sends them back to the hole from whence they spewed forth.

  • July 10, 2005, 9:39 p.m. CST

    another small gripe...

    by David Assholehof

    WTF was up with Doom&#39;s voice? hell, the Spider-man and his Amazing Friends version at least sounded like they at least gave it some thought. Should have had some o&#39; dat re-verberation effect. Yah. Oh, and Super-Friends def rocked.

  • July 10, 2005, 9:39 p.m. CST


    by Ribbons

    My point is that whenever a comic book movie comes out, good or bad, people always feel the need to compare it to the &#39;Hulk.&#39; Which sort of goes ways to confirm my suspicion that the movie angered them. There are, contrary to popular opinion, far worse comic book movies, far worse recent comic book movies, and far worse recent Marvel movies than &#39;Hulk.&#39; Yet it&#39;s always the measuring stick. I&#39;m just going from experience here when I say most of the time when I post it&#39;s because I&#39;m trying to understand someone else&#39;s POV. I think a lot of people slamming &#39;Hulk&#39; unnecessarily are trying to validate their hatred for it in the process.

  • July 10, 2005, 9:42 p.m. CST


    by David Assholehof

    BTW, I sounded as negative as Harry in that last blurb, but I actually did enjoy it. I&#39;ve been recommending to my friends to go see it for it&#39;s high-points but opt for matinee...

  • ...or FF is actually an okay movie. I&#39;d hate to be suckered into a theater by some of these positive reviews in the talkback, but I just might go see this. On the other hand, if I feel the urge to masturbate to porn maybe I&#39;ll just stay home and wait for cable.

  • July 10, 2005, 9:52 p.m. CST

    Hulk & Kirby

    by David Assholehof

    I have to say, I thoroughly enjoyed the Hulk and I agree it unfairly gets a bad rap. Poo-poo on you Hulk-haters. Bring that hulk back to fight the Thing in the sequel, a &#39;la Kirby, and all I would need is a bottle of hand-lotion or some spit *PATOUI!*... And make the machinery look more Kirby-ized, please... Kirby Thor&#39;s and FF are my favorite comics. Any Kirby-haters out there, don&#39;t bother slamming him or me for loving him. I got into a drawn-out pissing match with a "collector" who stated that todays artists are better and that Kirby sucked. I lost every ounce of respect for that person. Kirby was a GOD amongst scribbling mortals.

  • July 10, 2005, 10:19 p.m. CST


    by mpfanatic

    I dont know about everyone else, maybe they are plants, but I&#39;m not a plant. I genuinely enjoyed myself and I talked to others who did as well, so maybe people dont care that its not perfect

  • July 10, 2005, 10:20 p.m. CST

    Hulk as Yardstick

    by MrStinger

    Why is The Hulk the yardstick for comic book-based movies? Not because the Hulk was so bad, but because it was so disappointing. It had the budget, a good director, good casting, and a lot of fan-based good will on the heels of X-Men and Spiderman. It had a pent-up fan base who wanted to see if CGI could deliver what the two-per-episode Hulk-outs of 70&#39;s TV could not. The last two Superman movies and the fourth Batman were just as disappointing, but successful movies had already proved the franchises viable, and, after a few years, they were revived. With Hulk, the franchise may have been permanently poisoned, and that is disappointment of a monumental nature to comic book fans everywhere.

  • July 10, 2005, 10:25 p.m. CST

    Hulk Vs. Thing

    by MrStinger

    That being said, I have to agree with Mr. Assholehoff&#39;s suggestion of a Hulk Vs. Thing battle in a FF sequel--those were always my favorite FF stories. The filmmakers couldn&#39;t do better than focus on the best Lee-Kirby stories, with the end of FF2 setting up the appearance of Galactus in FF3.

  • July 10, 2005, 10:39 p.m. CST

    Hollywood&#39;s slump is not major. It&#39;s all about the movie

    by Mr. Profit

    Not to mention both I Robot, The Bourne Sequel, and Harry Potter opened with 50 plus mill. That&#39;s a whole lot to beat and great years like last year are hard to top. The Fantastic Four may have made more opening weekend gross than last years weekend, but that doesnt mean its going to gross enough money to help top all of last years hits.

  • July 10, 2005, 10:45 p.m. CST

    It&#39;s Decent Enough to Spawn a Sequel

    by BossCane

    I went in with guttural low expectations, expecting the movie to be horrible because of the mediocre trailers and terrible reviews. In fact, the only reason I went is because my two nephews and daughter (all below the age of 10) were dying to go. I went to a matinee packed full of families and, I was pleasantly surprised. The movie was sort of brainless popcorn fun. The kids loved it. And, most importantly, for the most part, the actors nailed the characters. The Thing and the Torch were dead on. Gruffold as Reed Richards was fine. Alba, well, 3 out of 4 isn&#39;t bad and she&#39;s not that painful to look at. Doom was poorly developed and butchered, but, there&#39;s hope that Doom will be a better villain in a sequel. And there will be a sequel. It will have the box office and enough kiddies to warrant a sequel. Everyone compares it to Hulk, which is interesting. I remember having high expectations for the Hulk because of the cast and director, watching the movie and leaving the theater with a vague sense of disappointment. I always categorize Hulk as a noble failure. Great director, solid cast, interesting movie, but it just didn&#39;t take and really might never be the franchise that Marvel hoped. FF, on the other hand, had tons of flaws, a so-so director, questionable cast choices, but it worked enough for me (and to most of the family matinee theater who applauded) to be enjoyable (no Batman Begins, Superman or X-Men 2) but enjoyable enough to hope for a sequel.

  • July 10, 2005, 11:18 p.m. CST

    How in Hades Harry could blast his swimmers into his shorts over

    by Serious Black

    This movie kicks ass. I laughed. I didn&#39;t cry, but I did laugh some more. I take back anything bad I said about Fox execs (at least until that piece of shit X3 comes out). I loved this movie. Not, "it was okay." Not, "yeah but..." I loved it. Not that it&#39;s the greatest movie ever, by any means. But it&#39;s ENJOYABLE. Remember when we went to movies to be entertained and not to look for every little inconsistency and implausibility? I wouldn&#39;t change a damn thing about this movie. It works as is, end of story. Was it as good as Batman Begins? Fuck no! I sat through most of Batman Begins with a goofy grin on my face thinking "Holy shit this movie is fucking awesome" and then Katie Holmes had to go screw it up when she rubs Christian Bale&#39;s cheek but even that couldn&#39;t ruin for me. No, FF is no BB, but I didn&#39;t laugh so much during Batman. I wasn&#39;t bored out of my skull like I was during most of Spider-Man 2 with all of Peter&#39;s whining about his miserable existence or Hulk (which I liked) with its umpteenth flashback of Daddy Banner. There&#39;s no pretend attempt at a message like the X-Men movies. It&#39;s just a funny action movie that entertained me and the people I saw it with. What more do you want? Oh yeah, bring Tim Story back for the sequel. Blackout.

  • July 10, 2005, 11:37 p.m. CST

    Just further evidence that this site, once a haven for film buff

    by IndustryKiller

    You people are like fucking cockroaches. You swarm and just ruin everything.

  • July 11, 2005, 12:09 a.m. CST

    People who don&#39;t like this movie just can&#39;t appreciate i

    by FelatioHornblowr

    Ha! Just kidding. There is absolutely no meaning or subtext in this film. It&#39;s freakin&#39; BRILLIANT! Not piss your pants funny, but consistent chuckles throughout. An overall good time at the movies.

  • July 11, 2005, 12:32 a.m. CST

    Batman was twice the film this crap was....

    by RedScab

    IF you want to see all the best parts of this film just watch all the annoying ads online. These adds contain the best parts of the film the rest is a big waste of time and money. I would have rather seen Episode III or Batman Begins again. This movie was just plan bad, Harry was right it had a few, very few good moments. It looked like one of those Scifi channel movie&#39;s of the week. But if you asked me this was a bad choice by marvel I never found these characters interesting in comics compared to the x-men or batman but thats just me. Hell I thought daredevil and punisher were much better than this crap. Well you know we will see a sequel becuase of all the money it made this weekend. Lets just hope it gets better from here.

  • July 11, 2005, 12:56 a.m. CST

    Fantastic Four is going to be the top film next weekend too. Wa

    by FelatioHornblowr

    &#39;Cause no parent in their right mind is gonna take their kid to see a remake of a movie that traumatized their generation. How many people had nightmares about those little orange bastards after seeing that movie? The movie looks downright creepy. The people who go to see &#39;Charlie up the Chocolate Factory&#39; are not going to bring their kids. Hence, once people hear that FF is not nearly the disaster it was proclaimed, the ones that held back this weekend will go next weekend. Sequel City, baby!

  • July 11, 2005, 1:02 a.m. CST


    by tuesday noble

    Did Reeds sonic cloud booth remind anyone else of The Fly?

  • July 11, 2005, 1:21 a.m. CST

    Batutta I&#39;m not a FOX pr person, but the film was entertaini

    by The Founder

    it was not a good movie. it wasn&#39;t bad at all, just entertaining and nothing more. Still don&#39;t know why the critics ripped it to shreds cause it&#39;s not a bad fim. Doom was screwed uped and the fx was choppy in places, mostlty reed, but Troch and Thing were good, especially torch.

  • July 11, 2005, 1:32 a.m. CST

    IndustryKiller you make a vaild point, but FOX can&#39;t be happ

    by The Founder

    I think they know they missed a flop bullet big time. The execs aren&#39;t happy about them negative reviews cause i&#39;m sure they know that if not for those the movie would&#39;ve probably took in over 70 million this weekend. I&#39;d like to think they will learn their lesson and aim for fun and quality if their&#39;s a sequel. Positve reviews are always a plus.

  • July 11, 2005, 2:19 a.m. CST

    Don&#39;t worry.

    by Lukecash

    This is all the money it&#39;s gonna make. Most of my friends who saw it thought it was a piece of shit. Eveyone I know who saw Sith and Batman thought it was a great movie. All I hear from my Fantastic Four crowed was it sucked.

  • July 11, 2005, 7:11 a.m. CST

    It will never be good enough for some of you

    by normal-guy

    Let me sum up most of these bad reviews - It sucked because they didn&#39;t do what I wanted. To make it better they have to do everything on my list. You people seem to forget that this is a COMIC BOOK movie. I challenge you to go back and read those comic books. They are all goofy and stupid and have terrible dialog. For some reason you have based your pathetic lives around your skewed memories of these comics and now feel that all comic movies should be treated as Shakespeare. But they are not and most often should not be treated that way. Some characters lend themselves to a more realistic approach. X-men possibly, Batman. They tried this with the Hulk and most of you hated it, though now you are crying fowl because they didn&#39;t try it with FF. They stuck to the roots. A goofy, silly comic book and you are hating on it. Nothing will ever be good enough for you. My kids and I thoroughly enjoyed this movie and can&#39;t wait for the next. Sorry geeks, but not all movies are made just for you and your perverted memories of childhood.

  • July 11, 2005, 7:42 a.m. CST

    Vindication is sweet...

    by Lost Skeleton

    I didn&#39;t see this shitfest but I did say it was going to be #1 with over 50 million right!

  • July 11, 2005, 8:40 a.m. CST

    IndustryKiller - get over yourself.

    by OptimusPrimeTime

    A lot of people enjoyed the movie for what it was: a summer popcorn flick. Dear lord, these are the Fantastic Four, not the &#39;dark and brooding&#39; four. The movie wasn&#39;t without its plotholes (*Spoiler* the timeline for the re-alteration of Ben Grimm being one I keep expecting to read about here. *End Spoiler*), but it also had its share of good points, including just about everything Human Torch. That said, given how rebellious they played Johnny, I don&#39;t think they had a wealth of options for how to express Sue&#39;s motherly traits; you&#39;re not going to see the Sue Storm most of the complainers are expecting without Franklin Richards....and that&#39;s a bad idea for an origin film. Reed is supposed to be aloof, so I didn&#39;t have a problem with his role. Heck, Thing&#39;s suit didn&#39;t even bother me. Finally, I have the full expectation that the next time we see Victor Von Doom, he&#39;ll be the Latverian Dictator we&#39;ve come to expect; I just hope they hold that off for a sequel or two.

  • July 11, 2005, 9:08 a.m. CST

    Harry&#39;s Fantastic Clobberin&#39;

    by Brit Pop

    I&#39;m about to watch Fantastic Four, I&#39;m not a huge comic reader but do remember the FF cartoon from years back. All I can say is I hope Harry is wrong, or at least maybe was tired or drunk when he watched it. I&#39;ll post a review afterwards - although I slated WOTW because I thought it really sucked - Harry loved it... go figure. And yes, I will be stating my OPINION on the film just in case NoDumbYank wants to have another crack at me, cause he is heading on a fantastic voyage through Harry&#39;s colon as we speak.

  • July 11, 2005, 9:29 a.m. CST

    It&#39;s easy to see why it had a big weekend: it&#39;s like tho

    by JohnnyTremaine

    It&#39;s safe enough for parents to take their 5-8 yr olds to. There really hasn&#39;t been a family-Disney-Finding Nemo-type film yet this summer. Maybe Charlie and the Chocolate Factory will also clean up next week. Although Batman Begins is the better film, it most definitely is NOT appropriate for small children due to some of its imagery. Like someone above said, the audience fall off next week is likely to be pretty steep. Also, it probably opened on a ton of screens--likely as many as the distrubutor could find. But I can&#39;t take anything away from Fantastic Four&#39;s opening: it opened to great numbers considering most of the tickets were half-price children&#39;s admittance.

  • July 11, 2005, 10:20 a.m. CST

    !!hey harry, your beloved war of the worlds took a clobberin at

    by silverdog

    fantastic four sucks, but at leas it moved miss scientology out of the first place.. now bring the chocolate factory

  • July 11, 2005, 10:50 a.m. CST

    So very Sweet!

    by Hiruu

    The bashers will never admit they totally missed the boat on FF, but that&#39;s okay. Well just have to see what the film brings in this week to decide who&#39;s right or wrong, but currently, it&#39;s looking like FF is the surprise hit of the season!

  • July 11, 2005, 10:53 a.m. CST

    Dino a scold a you all!

    by DinoDeLaurentiis

    I a posted this over in a the Mori&#39;s review, but I gonna repost it here, because a the Dino, he so pissed he don&#39;t know where to post a today... Okay, alla you goddamn putzes, you a know who a you are... you went anna seen the Fantastico Four movie. Alla you putzes who a said "I gonna buy a ticket to a the Batman movie..." Admit it... you a choked when a you got uppa to the box office anna your mommy said "one a for a the Fantastico Four please." You a shoulda said "no mommy, Batman! It&#39;s a the Batman!" but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, you choke. You putzes! Now go anna look at what&#39;s a gonna happen. Fox, she&#39;s a LAUGHING at a you. Avi Arad, he&#39;s a wiping his ass with alla the money he a make this a weekend, that&#39;s a how much a money he make. An now, we gonna get a more a the crappy kind of funny book a movies. Anna the Fox? They gonna really a screw us over onna the X-Men a 3. Anna then, my funny book collection of X-Men? She gonna be a worthless... and then Dino, he&#39;s a gonna be a the pissed. Anna he&#39;s gonna find out a where you live, anna he&#39;s gonna come anna gut you like a the Kong snake. Anna you call a yourselves geeks! You shoulda be ashamed a yourselves... You not a the geek. You not a even the fanboy. You a PUTZ! Bah!

  • July 11, 2005, 11:07 a.m. CST

    Normal Guy... Abnormal Opinion

    by Brit Pop

    &#39;Pathetic lives&#39; ?? &#39;Skewed opinions&#39; ??... A bit harsh dont you think? Let me take time from my pathetic life to retort... Most of the modern comic book movies ARE bad, they rely on CGI spectacle, product placement, &#39;hot 100&#39; actors and usually try to fit everything that the comic characters have ever done into one two hour ordeal. Your kid&#39;s loved the film because it was designed for them.. ie - butts on seats... dollars in coffers... action figures and luchboxes. The only problem is... these movies are about characters that generally you have to be over 18 to remember, therefore... would it not be fair to say that they could at least try to give the films a bit of dignity for those who might want to see characters they grew up with finally on the big screen. Oops.. I&#39;ve just revealed that I am a geek, and don&#39;t have any kids unlike you - I just masturbate in front of Elektra all day because my Dad&#39;s in jail and my Mom&#39;s in rehab and I need to escape into a fantasy world because theres nothing for me here - until the rest of the world realises I am a super hero just waiting for my gamma ray burst. Xmen - Good... Hulk - OK but had a CGI muto-poodle in it... Batman Begins - Brilliant... Daredevil / Electra - pointless... Spiderman - Splendid... Fantastic Four - watching it in 30 minutes... Your opinions on geekdom - Fuck off back to the Ikea website and pick me up a bag of 100 candles.

  • July 11, 2005, 11:14 a.m. CST

    losing money

    by ender third

    so FF made 21mil on fri, then went downhill from there. sun it only made 14mil-word of mouth spreads fast. sun, saw batman (again) and the theater was over half full. thats a good sign that people will go see a good movie and not fall for the hype of a crappy movies opening weekend.

  • July 11, 2005, 11:52 a.m. CST

    Thanks Brit-Pop

    by normal-guy

    You basically proved my point. Nothing is going to be good enough to fit your age-old memories of the comic books you read as a kid, and apparently still masturbate to. Sorry if you haven&#39;t realized it, but comic books are still sold today. Specifically, Fantastic Four comic books are sold today. Publishers such as Marvel and DC have restarted their characters so many times to make them appeal to todays youth. They didn&#39;t keep them the same old 4 color, inane dialog and stupid ass scenarios just to give you more spank material. They updated them to 16 color, inane dialog and stupid ass scenarios. They made them listen to rap, and taught all of their heros how to skateboard and play video games. So to say that no one under 18 knows these characters or would care to see them on the big screen is just completely wrong. Personally my basement is filled with comic books, but I don&#39;t base my life on them or cry foul when a publisher restarts a character or changes things in a movie. Or worse yet, doesn&#39;t do it exactly as I would have done it. To me, the FF movie worked. It was funny and gave me a great day out with my kids. What more do you want? If everyone had given it a great review before it came out would you have made your own Thing costume and stood in line for 30 days waiting for it to open like the Star Wars nuts do? If that&#39;s fun to you then go for it, but just because the movie isn&#39;t exactly what you want it to be doesn&#39;t mean you need to rail on it. And I&#39;m sorry that you feel CGI in a movie about a guy who is on fire and can fly is a bad thing. Why don&#39;t you just light up and fly on over to Hollywood to show them how to do it in real life!!

  • July 11, 2005, 1:25 p.m. CST

    Boy, oh boy, did this movie suck

    by xXMr_BoJaNgLeSXx

    I was expecting entertainment and I was even let down in that front. The one-liners were lame even though I&#39;ll admit Chris Evans did get a few chuckles out of me. The whole movie basically led up to that one showdown with Dr. Doom in the middle of New York and it lasted, like, A MINUTE. Nevermind the fact that the way they defeated him was one of the biggest letdowns I have ever experienced in watching a movie. Harry was right, this movie can&#39;t even TOUCH &#39;The Incredibles&#39; in terms of seamless teamwork and action. Sue Storm was majorly miscast (and I don&#39;t have to be a FF fan to know that), and Chris Evans got majorly annoying by about two-thirds of the way through the movie. I don&#39;t know if the Human Torch was EVER that conceited in the comic books but they were blatantly trying to sell Evans to a female audience, to the point that they basically were shoveling it down the rest of the audiences throats. The guy kept popping up shirtless every other scene. But bottomline, this movie was borderline &#39;Batman & Robin&#39; material, and pales in comparison to other films like &#39;X1&#39; and &#39;2&#39;, &#39;Spider-Man 2&#39;, &#39;Superman&#39; and this years &#39;Batman Begins&#39;. It&#39;s nearly a cringing shame how big of a polar opposite this movie is compared to those.

  • July 11, 2005, 1:48 p.m. CST

    product placement

    by steveinbaltimore

    Watching Fantastic Four was like watching a 90 minute commercial.

  • July 11, 2005, 2:26 p.m. CST

    Love the comics for 30 years; movie was OK

    by Blanket-Man

    Didn&#39;t seem that bad to me. Better than HULK or DAREDEVIL, but nowhere near as good as any of the SPIDER-MAN or X-MEN flicks. After hearing for months how awful it was gonna be, I was somewhat pleasantly surprised. Johnny was nearly perfect, Ben was good, Reed was so-so, Sue was nice to look at but Alba brought nothing else to the table, Doom was the biggest misstep. Any flick with Stan Lee as Willy Lumpkin deserves some kudos, dammit!

  • July 11, 2005, 2:47 p.m. CST

    I&#39;m truly bored here at work, but I still see most of you ar

    by The Founder

    D@mn i&#39;ve never seen so much hatred and excues about a film making money and exceeding expectations. The thing that really pisses me off is that none of us here and i may be wrong, but none of us here have a stake in the success of this film. None of are going to make a cent off it. I enjoyed it even though it wasn&#39;t the best they could have done. Yeah i can list a ton problems this movie had, but you know what I just gave in and ignored my knowledge of the comic. Actually most was pretty dead on with the character, and yeas that includes Alba. jeez you people act like we need Cate blanchett or Hillary Swank as Sue Stoms, and even if either of those fine actresses got the role, you bitches would still bitch and moan about how they aren&#39;t right for the role and so forth. I also fail to see where Elisha Cuthbert that so many praised should be cast as Sue would have done any better then Alba. The only advantage she has is that she&#39;s more white then Alba, but certainly not that far above in acting skills over Alba, but you know what Alba in 10 times hotter, so I&#39;m happy that she got the role. Enough with the bashing, when most of you hear and probaly all went and seen the film despite you hatred of it.

  • July 11, 2005, 6:58 p.m. CST

    Dino, I love you man. Do you do parties?

    by Cod Profundity

    For the record MY opinion on a film based on a comic book. Ok, what I&#39;d usually expect from a film like this. I&#39;d want a more faith ful adaptation of doom and a more epic style story...wel i could go on and on about what I want, but then I&#39;m just one guy and my opinion doesn&#39;t matter to anyone in the movies.

  • July 11, 2005, 8:05 p.m. CST

    This movie was better than Batman Begins

    by tHEmOOG

    No need to wait an hour for action. I read all the talkbacks before going in and I can&#39;t believe how wrong Harry and you people were. This movie has action, comedy and touching moments like THING trying to pick up the ring and couldn&#39;t. What ever happened to going to the movies to have fun? Now all you people do is criticize. What&#39;s worse you people criticize before the movie comes out. This movie was fun and I recommend it. My money went to this movie not Batman. What a stupid idea that was.

  • July 11, 2005, 11:18 p.m. CST

    It&#39;s official: he sequel is a-comin&#39;

    by MadMike28

    The LA Times reports that Avi Arad has confirmed an FF sequel based on the film&#39;s $56 million opening weekend. "Of course, there will be a sequel," he said. "Now the constituency is much larger." Good news for those of us who liked, but not necessarily loved, the first one--we get to see another, and can hope (perhaps in vain, but hope nevertheless) that they improve the product. By the way, if you&#39;ve never seen Chiklis in "The Shield," run, don&#39;t walk, to buy, rent, or borrow the first three seasons available on DVD. Absolutely brilliant, with more "HOLY SHIT!!" moments than any series in TV history.

  • July 11, 2005, 11:23 p.m. CST

    Of course, I meant "The sequel," not "he sequel." My first post,

    by MadMike28

  • July 11, 2005, 11:38 p.m. CST

    "Constituency?" Is he running for office? Ah, Avi, you&#39;ve

    by Serious Black

    He and Don King should team up for Promopalooza.

  • July 12, 2005, 2:52 a.m. CST

    fantastic four

    by nm07067

    I have seen the movie twice so far and I don&#39;t see why there are so many negative reviews. Each of the actors are well cast. I believe that all of the Jessica Alba bashing is because of some preconcieved bias that because she is young and attractive then there is no way she can play a well educated mature woman. As far as the story there are always liberties that have to be taken when adapting a comic from print to film. I enjoyed this movie as much as Batman Begins and I believe that as a first film in a franchise it does well to set up the characters and story. I have read numerous posts complaining about what a missed oppurtunity this was and how it does not live up to the spiderman and x-men films, I disagree. I believe it captures the essence of the Fantastic Four and I believe this is why most people will find it entertaining. Hopefully the film make enough money as this will give the producers the incentive to make next movie more epic in scale

  • July 12, 2005, 6:37 a.m. CST

    Not as bad as I thought

    by weebay

    I pretty much enjoyed the movie to my surprise. It was light fun and it didn&#39;t take itself to seriously. It wasn&#39;t as good as War of the Worlds but it&#39;s a different kind of film. There were also some funny lines in the movie. I&#39;ll tell you what, it was much better than that rotten piece of crap Star Wars Episode 3

  • July 12, 2005, 9:39 a.m. CST

    Four Fantastic Implausabilities ** SPOILERS**

    by Brit Pop

    I just saw FF... and really enjoyed it, although I went into it with the wrong frame of mind when Harry slated it. Don&#39;t get me wrong, its not a fantastic movie (no pun intended)... better than Hulk and Daredevil... not as good as X-Men or Spiderman... but definately did not deserve most of the Harry inspired stick its getting. I think the thing that could quite easily be the reason why most people dont like this is that it contains some really... really... fucking really implausable moments that drag you back to reality faster that when Greedo shot first (only not so soul-destroying at that particular moment of movie madness). Here, in my opinion, are the four moments that really lost this film its &#39;excellent&#39; status - 1 - The nurse who just saw Johnny had a temperature of over 200 degrees, and subsequently burst into flames in the ski slopes.. was quite willing to get roasted (sorry!) by him despite the fact he is clearly unwell... maybe she has asbestos in all the right places. 2 - Von Doom really wasnt a very good bad guy - his special abilities really were&#39;nt that clearly defined as everyone elses so you really didnt know what he was going to do, or how... hopefully if they make a sequel it will have Galactus in it - a proper bad guy. 3 - Ben&#39;s fucking bitch of a wife! I dont know how many years they were married but she flew the coup pretty quickly! I&#39;m not too sure if he had a wife in the comic, but she ran a mile when she first saw him as opposed to trying to accept the fact that her husband was disfigured - which must happen a lot in our crazy world.. and just after she saw him save a bunch of people on the bridge, she drops the wedding ring and bails... fucking nasty whore! 4 - The whole &#39;Ben gets changed back to normal but 10 seconds later decides to change back in order to have a dramatic entrance&#39; scene was a bit dire - totally unneccesary except to highlight a few moral issues on whether we should cherish our looks or how much we can help people regardless of how it affects us - got me thinking... not. But apart from these things - I liked the film a lot, especially the Ben / Johnny relationship and the lovely Jessica Alba getting semi naked - I know she was invisible... but thats what God invented the imagination for!!!

  • July 12, 2005, 12:13 p.m. CST

    Story&#39;s FF story

    by Oliviscus

    FF review

  • July 12, 2005, 2:10 p.m. CST

    I&#39;m sure no one&#39;s even reading this thread anymore...

    by MasterWhedon

    ...but I saw this last night and thought I&#39;d chime in anyway. I have to get this fof my chest. I just... wow. So disappointing. SO incredibly disappointing. And I say that because parts of this film were close to what they should be. Parts of this film hint at the coolness that is possible with this franchise. Parts of this film hint at--dare I say it--greatness. But shit. For me, it all comes down to the script and the Story. Tim Story, that is. The script is pretty weak, the story too small and the characters way too illogical. They fold back upon themselves without a seconf thought. I speak mainly of Ben, who fights and fights and fights to become human again, then just says fuck it at the end. Bullshit. I don&#39;t buy it. Not when he&#39;s got Miss Blind Thang there he wants to learn to "touch." Tim Story was a bad choice to direct this movie. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he simply doesn&#39;t understand how to film a movie like this. He just doesn&#39;t. Much of it is pretty and well shot (I give credit to Oliver Wood for that), but the scenes are staged in such a boring manner. He&#39;s an "over/over/two-shot" hack. There&#39;s no visual flourish. NONE. What does Sue Storm get for he introduction? Static medium-close up. Because THAT&#39;S the way you introduce a) your sexbom or b) your chief genete--whatever the fuck she was. Everything seems so small and contained to this soundstage or that. There&#39;s nothing even remotely as cool or as grand or as epic as the clocktower-to-elevated train fight from Spider-Man 2. This just... wow, am I so disappointed. Going in, I didn&#39;t care that much that Victor was going to be beat-for-beat Norman Osborne, but for Christ&#39;s sake! did they have to copy and paste the whole goddamn storyline?!! Couldn&#39;t they think up SOMETHING new?! I mean, hey, I like the idea that Latveria could be where they&#39;re going with the next one, but come the fuck on a minute with that Raider of the Lost Doom ending!!! On a side note, no one should ever end a movie with "The End" anymore, ESPECIALLY IF IT&#39;S SUPPOSED TO BE THE BEGINNING OF A FUCKING FRANCHISE!!! What the shit--did the miss the mark on this one!! Flame effects = cool. The other effects = meh-fuck. Alba = hot in that suit the first time you see her, WRONG for the movie every other instance. Chiklis was great and I actually liked the suit (the only surprise for me the entire movie). Reed was stretchy... and lacked the proper weight and texture anytime he was in the F4 suit (otherwise, his skin, pores, etc. looked quite nice). AAAAAAARRGGGHHHH!!! What the fuck, man? This REALLY irritates me, even moreso that Daredevil, ANOTHER movie Fox and Marvel missed on. They were close, but they missed. Overall, I enjoyed F4 more than Daredevil, but I really had to let myself go to get there. Fuck, man. FUCK!!! (PS, I don&#39;t usually find the need to swear/curse/cuss in TB, but SHIT! that&#39;s how I feel!) God love it, God bless it and long live X3.

  • July 12, 2005, 2:37 p.m. CST

    better than Batman Begins and Spider-Man

    by comax

    If you don

  • July 12, 2005, 3:57 p.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    I understand your argument, and I&#39;ve seen many others make the same point. I agree that not all superhero movies need to be dark and brooding. I like that Fantastic 4 and Spider-Man are often light and playful, juxtaposed with the harsh reality of superheroing. The problem is that Fantastic 4 is an average to poor movie. And to say that it&#39;s a good "comic book" movie diminishes what comic book movie can and should be. Spider-Man, X-Men, Batman Begins, and Superman WORK AS MOVIES. They don&#39;t need a clarifier. They have faults, sure, but they also have style, direction, poise, nuance, and an overall clarity that Fantastic 4 was sorely missing. If F4 wanted to be funny, then be funny! Don&#39;t be contrived, which most of the humor was (aside from a few Johnny/Ben moments). Ultimately, I really wanted to like this movie. I&#39;m not a Hater. I give most films the benefit of the doubt and can forgive many-a-fault. But this, quite frankly, is a poorly-done movie. Just think about it a minute. Was there a SINGLE MOMENT throughout this entire film that you will tell your kids about one day? Do you think this would EVER be considered a seminal film to a child of this generation? No, it&#39;s cookie-cutter work patched together from pieces of Fan 4 comics and other, better films. Keeping in mind that the Fantastic Four were the supergroup who started it all (and there was plenty of originality back in the day), THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ORIGINAL THOUGHT IN THIS ENTIRE FILM.

  • July 12, 2005, 4:31 p.m. CST

    MasterWhedon - one single moment

    by Oliviscus

    One single moment that stands out is when Ben is sitting on top of the bridge and he talks about 3 days in space - How bad could it be? Then he tells the other guy ready to jump off the bridge - " You think you got problems? Look at me!" That moment was pure gold, and it does stand out.

  • July 12, 2005, 4:44 p.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    Ehh... Okay, well, maybe... I don&#39;t know. I think maybe I&#39;m being too picky, but that scene didn&#39;t work for me. I really like the idea of it--I do--but I just don&#39;t buy it. No, it&#39;s not that I don&#39;t buy it, it&#39;s that I wanted it to be better. I wanted MORE. I wanted to see Ben&#39;s anguish over turning into the lump of rock, to take the time to see how it&#39;s changing him. Instead, we get "character" scenes and heroes with "problems." I say those in quotes because other movies do the same exact thing, but they&#39;re REAL, BELIEVABLE characters and REAL, BELIEVABLE problems that are given time and weight to develop and make you care. Fantastic 4 feels like they&#39;re following a formula straight through. We get plot devices instead of characters to wrap around. Disagree? Then what&#39;s the Doom, "Yoko Factor" bit about other than ratcheting up a little more "drama" for a big "payoff?" In a better movie, it works. In this one, it feels like wheels of a machine griding away.

  • July 12, 2005, 5:20 p.m. CST

    ff ruled the box office!

    by b28282002

    It&#39;s so great to read the early talk-backs, and also re-read Harry&#39;s early bitches about some perfectly entertaining FF trailers. Most of the people here were making fun of a movie they never even saw, including Harry. But, just to show your irrelevance, the movie is doing incredible business at the box office. Not everyone listens to Harry and all of the FF haters in this talkback. This is my first post, and I&#39;m here because I can&#39;t take all the negative nitpicking that&#39;s been aimed at this film. Why wasn&#39;t Batman Begins torn apart like this? Burning down the freaking Wayne Manor? Completely altering the origins and stories of two main villains? What about the much-jacked-off-about WOTW? It was a "B" at best, but most of the people on this site think it was freaking Shakespeare! Double Standards! I hope FF continues to kick ass at the box office, so all the negative assholes can continue to be proven wrong!

  • July 12, 2005, 5:25 p.m. CST

    Whedonasssucker make your own flick.

    by JUSTICE41

    Get your buds together get a HD cam and create some costumes and write a screenplay and film it. It may not be on the level of Hollywood but it would get it out of your system, or you could just accept that anyone can armchair any movie and if you didn&#39;t like it that&#39;s cool. No one said you have to. But whining like a bitch? Nope, won&#39;t work.

  • July 12, 2005, 5:31 p.m. CST

    Oh and for you whiners, FF just made another 6+ million to jump

    by JUSTICE41

    Eat it bitch&#39;s! I predict it will make about 27 million this week and another 30 million on saturday and sunday tie WeeWillyWinky and The Fruit Making Factory or whatever that stupid movie is.

  • July 12, 2005, 7 p.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    Let&#39;s take a step back here and point out that instead of debating me on the film&#39;s merits, you&#39;ve instead chosen to a) insult me and b) point out the fact that the movie is doing strong box office. Take those two points, re-read my posts and see if you&#39;ve even begun to counter my arguments. Christ, I&#39;m happy the movie is doing well. Partly, at least. The BO needs the boost, and if it gives them the opportunity to rectify the wrongs here, MORE POWER TO IT!! And people, let&#39;s also get out of the business of saying that because something makes money, it&#39;s good. Jesus, look at Rob Cohen&#39;s career!! Tell me when that man&#39;s getting an Oscar for all his "stellar," $100 million plus-grossing film. As for your assertion that I should shut up and go make my own damn Fantastic Four film to rival this one, well, that&#39;s silly on a hundred different levels. However, bear in mind that none of us (for the most part) really know who&#39;s who behind these avatars. I could very well be the guy making the next one, for all you know.

  • July 12, 2005, 8:33 p.m. CST

    Not Oscar worthy

    by Oliviscus

    I just want to be clear that while I am taking a positive perpective on the movie, I did not think the movie was perfect. The video game has a better action packed plot for that matter. I do think that the movie had its merits. Can I be in YOUR FF movie? I have a killer Thing suit/costume. Check out to see a bunch of FF related masks and the suit.

  • July 12, 2005, 10:38 p.m. CST

    Whedonassucker I really don&#39;t care if your insulted

    by JUSTICE41

    It&#39;s your name as far as I&#39;m concerned. Live with it or don&#39;t. BO is a barometer that shows success. If you want to armchair a movie I can only suggest you make your own version to show your buds how it should be done. Makes no never mind what you want from a movie, you get what you get. You don&#39;t have to go see it but if you do and whine afterwards , then the question is why did you go in the first place. If for any reason a foul stench is coming from a movie, I just dismiss it, like WOTW. If you hate something sight unseen what makes any of you think you will ever like it? Makes no sense. I gave up on Star wars flicks after Clones and refused to see Sith. Just wasn&#39;t happening but I aint gonna go around whining about it. That&#39;s what children do. Suck it up, be a man or woman. Stop whining. You didn&#39;t make the movie, you had no say in it&#39;s making, and you never will. Your only choice&#39;s are to see or not to see it. Simple as that. I wouldn&#39;t waste my TV viewing time watching any of Michael Bay&#39;s movies, so why whine about it to others. You guys live off of negativity.

  • July 13, 2005, 12:31 a.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    I&#39;d ask first that you don&#39;t lump me in with "you guys" who "thrive off of negativity," mainly because my posts on this thread have been some of the only negative comments I&#39;ve ever had about ANY movie on this site. If you cared to look, you&#39;d see I&#39;ve been called an "apologist" more times than I cared to count for offering up the "wait and see" approach, and I&#39;m the guy who loves all three Star Wars prequels, faults and all. I CAN love movies that could have been better, I just prefer that they ARE, in fact, better. Can I change a movie once it&#39;s done? Of course not, but... Well, from some of the other statements you&#39;ve made, I think it&#39;s fair to say that you and I simply disagree from a philosophical standpoint about the nature of cinema, and possibly art moreover. What you refer to as "armchairing" a movie, I often see as a lively and intellectual debate about art and creativity and storytelling. As far as box office... again, please don&#39;t try to claim that simply because a movie makes money, it&#39;s automatically good. MOST OFTEN IT SIMPLY MEANS THE MOVIE WAS MARKETED WELL. Hell, you claimed you hated WOTW. Didn&#39;t that movie have a bigger opening weekend? Is it a bigger "success" that F4? By your rationale, yes. But does that "success" make it a better movie? Personally, I&#39;d say yes, but it&#39;s incredibly wrong to think you can judge the quality of a movie by dollars and cents. Simply put, I was incredibly disappointed with the film. Do I have to make one to answer it? I really don&#39;t think so, but who knows? Maybe I&#39;ll be the guy on F42. Maybe it&#39;ll be you. Whoever it is, I can accept his/her version as long as they approach the property with some level of intelligence and ingenuity. Until then...

  • July 13, 2005, 12:57 a.m. CST

    Hmmm... Should I really... "go see for myself"... or not??? Eh

    by JDanielP

    Wow,... 56 million buckaroos on opening weekend. And where are the talkbackers who post "Comic book movies are history!" ...blah, blah, blah??? Just think how much money "FANTASTIC FOUR" would make if most critics liked it, as being fair proof that it&#39;s worth the time and money. Based on what I&#39;ve read, I&#39;ll wait. And I&#39;m a comic book fan!

  • July 13, 2005, 11:36 a.m. CST

    the film

    by dengreg31

    wasnt bad. sure, some of the matte work was unacceptable for a film with that budget, and yes, Doom&#39;s story was radically changed. .....I liked it anyway. Sue me.

  • July 13, 2005, 2:34 p.m. CST

    Fantastic- Not

    by mad_man234

    Fantastic 4 was horribble. I hated it, I thought X-men1, x-men 2,Spiderman 1, Spiderman 2, Electra, and the Hulk was better! The Special effects were absolutly horrible. The acting could have been alot better. What was Marvel thinking! Well, there past movies were good.

  • July 13, 2005, 3:29 p.m. CST

    I liked it, actually.

    by coen_fan

    This is one heck of a guilty pleasure, to be sure, but I liked this movie. I liked Chris Evans, Michael Chiklis, and Ioan Gruffud. I thought some scenes worked pretty well. My expectations were super-low, but I ended up having a good time. I really hope it doesn&#39;t get loaded with Golden Rasberries. Save &#39;em for Be Cool.

  • July 13, 2005, 5:09 p.m. CST

    It just get a feeling of "Meh."

    by dr_dreadlocks

    Meh writing, meh effects, meh scenes. It&#39;s all pretty much meh. I wasn&#39;t impressed, nor was I spitting acid. Just meh.

  • July 13, 2005, 5:41 p.m. CST

    Be Cool-obberin&#39; time

    by Brit Pop

    FF was good... but it had a few moments in it that were sub-standard. Nobody would have had a major problem with it had Harry not slated it - but the man is good at recruiting! Be Cool was a film made for one purpose... to have a Travola / Thurman dance... in England Travola went on a chat show (Parkinson) and all they did was show both dances from &#39;Pulp&#39; and &#39;Cool&#39; - the film should have never been made apart from how many powerful friends Elmore has... WOTW anyone??? know aht I mean???

  • July 13, 2005, 9:18 p.m. CST

    If this were as bad as GIGLI there would be an oral scene with T

    by FelatioHornblowr

    Or maybe they&#39;re saving that for the unrated-cut DVD. Gobble, gobble.

  • July 13, 2005, 10 p.m. CST

    Was this really that bad

    by TNearyIII

    IMHO, No. There were alot of problems with this movie, but i had a little fun. Sit thru the Ring 2 or Elektra, than tell me what&#39;s alot worse.

  • July 14, 2005, 7:18 a.m. CST

    I can&#39;t believe...

    by cuttr wrong Harry is on this one. It&#39;s a great movie. Not a Roger Ebert "Great Movie", or great cinema, or great art, but a damn good time at the movies. Sure there were some nitpicy things, but aside from Doom&#39;s origin (which in terms of the time allowed for introducing these characters in a single movie, I think was justified. He can be the Latverian Monarch in the sequel) this was incredibly true to the comic. I was going to go into more detail, but Oliviscus said pretty much everything already. (By the way, as to where Ben got the power to run the machine: Maybe the power source acted as a sort of capacitor and stored excess energy from Doom for a short time, allowing one more use.) I&#39;d say 7.5/10.

  • July 14, 2005, 11:17 a.m. CST

    matthooper8 - money defense

    by Oliviscus

    While I do not subscribe to the money-at-the-box-office theory for proving whether a movie is good or not, I do think it is the easiest way to show that people are 1) seeing the movie and 2) may even like the movie. This movie was put to death before it ever came out. I am a huge FF fan and only slightly disappointed at the films treatment of the material. If this movie had been strictly made for diehard FF fans only about 50,000 (roughly the number of issues of FF sold each month) people would have enjoyed it. Do I think a better movie could have been made? Sure. Do I think a worse movie could have been made? Absolutely. I just want to know why I can&#39;t find any Dr Doom toys freaking anywhere!?!?!

  • July 14, 2005, 1:17 p.m. CST

    The problem with FF...

    by Fantasticles

    as far as story goes, is that there were NO STAKES. If the FF failed in defeating Doom...NOTHING woulda happened. He didn&#39;t have any grand schemes, no plans to take over, destroy and hold dominion over anything. What kinda self respectin&#39; bad guy doesn&#39;t have a master plan? What kind, I ask ya?! Also, where the hell&#39;d he get that cloak alla sudden? They take the time to explain "Clobberin&#39; time" but not the green cloak with the gigantic buttons?

  • July 14, 2005, 9:33 p.m. CST

    I LIKED the no stakes approach.

    by Serious Black

    The superhero movie formula where the bad guy has an evil master plan has become rather tiresome. I liked the fact that the FF were fighting "merely" for their lives and not necessarily to save the world. I also liked the fact that they became heroes through a stupid accident that Thing was partly to blame for. I loved the whole "accidental celebrity" aspect of it. In a lot of ways this movie felt more "realistic" than so many other big superhero movies that try so hard to be realistic. Batman Begins is THE best movie so far this year, but the whole "destroy Gotham" thing at the end felt a little incongruous with all of the efforts up to that point to keep the story grounded in reality. Still a great movie, though. As far as Doom goes, he wasn&#39;t very fleshed out, but he worked for me. I was glad they didn&#39;t change his voice at the end. As far as the cloak goes, I assume it had something to do with his Latverian heritage but maybe that explanation was left on the cutting room floor. FF does have it&#39;s share of faults to be sure, but overall it&#39;s a good fun fast-paced flick.

  • July 15, 2005, 8:12 a.m. CST


    by b28282002

    I agree that the sudden celebrity factor was extremely realistic ... if we had people like this, they would suddenly be on every magazine cover. Also, the Doom character was handled the best way possible. How many Latverian dictators are there out there with metal armor and green cloaks? Not an easy story to get into, but they did it as realistically as possible. Same goes with the final battle. It was refreshing to just see a villain who&#39;s pissed off and wants to kick ass, instead of trying to rule the freaking world. WHich, I&#39;m sure, Doom will try to do in the next movie. What I&#39;m hoping for is a Galactus/Silver Surfer story in FF3, which could lead directly into a Silver Surfer movie.

  • July 15, 2005, 8:22 a.m. CST

    black director

    by b28282002

    I&#39;ve been reading through some of the previous posts, and I can&#39;t believe people are complaining because the director is black. First, a person&#39;s skin color has nothing to do with ... anything, and second, it&#39;s so odd to see racism displayed in so public a forum. Third, it&#39;s the weakest fucking argument about why you didn&#39;t like the movie that I&#39;ve ever heard!

  • July 15, 2005, 9:10 a.m. CST

    "Why do the defenders of the movie always counter with how much

    by TheWoodMan

    MattHooper8 gives most of the answer in the same post: marketing. If one is lucky (right place/right time, etc.), and willing to spend a lot of dough on loud, flashy hype... ANY piece of crap can be made to appear to be a Smash Hit. For a little while, anyways. Hype can fill up the multiplexes on Opening Weekend... but quality keeps the asses in the seats for weeks and weeks thereafter ("Batman Begins"). The other part of the answer to MattHooper8&#39;s question is... as always, at any movie news/review site... studio plants. Don&#39;t be too hard on them, though; they have tough jobs. There are only so many ways you can say "Ignore what every reviewer and everyone you know who&#39;s seen the movie is saying... THIS IS GREAT!!!" before the mind snaps and "But... but... the box office..." is all that remains.

  • July 15, 2005, 9:43 a.m. CST

    Oh, and Oliviscus... there are a LOT more than 50,000 F.F. fans

    by TheWoodMan

    Not that 50,000 is anything to sneeze at, considering the shape the comics biz is in. However, that fails to account for forty-four years worth of fans who still have love for the characters & their exploits, but who have given up on the actual comic book, for whatever reason (stopped reading comics, hated the new artist, etc.). Despite what the movie&#39;s defenders often claim, I haven&#39;t heard anyone say they wanted a panel-for-panel, line-for-line recreation of the comic... but doing a movie that was a little more accurate & respectful of these well-established characters would&#39;ve had THREE GENERATIONS of True Believers in the theaters. Think of that: Gray-haired Kirby/Lee "Old Schoolers", us grown-ups who read the book in the 70s & 80s, and a new generation of wild-eyed youngsters being blown away for the first time. Instead, it&#39;s five-year-olds who don&#39;t know any better, dragging their disgusted parents by the wrist. Hey Fox, hey Marvel Films... GREAT JOB, GUYS!

  • July 15, 2005, 10:30 a.m. CST

    hatred of this film

    by b28282002

    I&#39;ve never seen a film inspire so much hatred before, either on this website or other geek-related sites. I don&#39;t really understand it. These people first laughed at the trailers, which were actually pretty well put together, especially the torch effects. They then proclaimed that this movie will bomb and be the biggest flop at the box office. Now that it&#39;s doing great at the box office, they fall back on, "well, you wait until two weeks from now, and no one will be seeing it". They also harp on the film&#39;s apparent lack of quality ... and keep referring back to Batman Begins. Tell me the about the wonderful quality of Batman Begins, and how it differs from FF? Specifically, not just "FF is a big bowl of shit crap and it sucks." What is the striking difference between these two films? Both completely overhauled the villains origins ... both have pretty accurate representations of the superheroes&#39; powers ... neither are R-rated films, so one would expect the studios want them to appeal to the masses. And despite all the hatred of some bloggers, there are a genuine amount of comic fans and fans of these movies who have seen FF and like it. I know a number of my friends who aren&#39;t comic geeks who liked the movie a lot. They are not studio plants, and neither am I. Why can&#39;t you just realize that a lot of people really like this movie and will continue to see it? There will be at least two more FF movies for you to bitch about, so deal with it.

  • July 15, 2005, 11:12 a.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    First of all, I don&#39;t think you can lump all of the criticisms of this film into the realm of idle hatred, simply because most of us who were disappointed with the film didn&#39;t, in fact, hate it. We--and I&#39;ll try to speak of "us" as a collective now--were more disappointed than anything, more upset at the possibility of what could have been. There are true hints of greatness in this film, but they aren&#39;t given the room to breathe and grow. Instead, they&#39;re muddled into something good or mediocre. Often times, merely average. As far as relating this film to Batman Begins--Begins is, simply, on another level. If you can&#39;t see that, I&#39;d highly suggest you take another long, hard look at both films. If you can&#39;t tell me that Batman Begins is the more engaging film, with strong, realized characters, high drama and an central vision guiding the story. Begins is a better movie because Chris Nolan made it and Tim Story made Fantastic Four. One simply knows how to tell a story better than the other. I&#39;ll accept it if you disagree, but the differences in quality are pretty obvious to me. Hell, watching Batman Begins, you&#39;re watching an epic where you at least believe the locations you&#39;re in. Fantastic Four feels like you&#39;re always on a backlot, always on a stage. Things are really quite "small" for such a blockbuster, superhero movie. Ebert put it pretty much right, that after Spider-Man 2 and Batman Beings, we need to expect more for superhero films. We need to expect them to work AS FILMS. Fantastic Four won&#39;t be remembered by most in five years. That&#39;s a shame.

  • July 15, 2005, 11:42 a.m. CST

    i remember, Master Bater

    by b28282002

    I remember FF, and I think a lot of people will remember it. In fact, a lot more than will remember Batman Begins, because Batman in this installment is not appreciably different than the first three films. Inf act, he looks almost exactly the same. Where is the great artistry, and the grand scope that you speak of this "epic." If you really feel this way about the film, then you surely think it will be full of oscar nominations. Do you really think this? If so, it&#39;s not going to happen. I like how you condescend ... "it&#39;s better because Chris Nolan made it." Have you ever seen Memento? It&#39;s not really that engaging, despite all the hype. He&#39;s no Martin Scorsese or Clint Eastwood or Stephen Spielberg ... don&#39;t try and pretend he&#39;s one of our great film makers. Tim Story made Barbershop, which was unanimously critically acclaimed. I asked for specifics. Why is Batman Begins better? You say it has "high drama" whatever that means, and is more "engaging." I saw both films twice, and the people int he audience seemed pretty involved in the FF film. They laughed at all the right parts, they marveled at the effects ... they were even caught up in the Sue/Reed relationship. What about the Bruce Wayne love interest -- was there one? That was done extremely badly, and no one can argue otherwise honestly. Hell, there was more emotional tension in the scene where Doom proposed to Sue than in any "real" moment between two characters in Batman Begins. And the Thing trying to pick up that ring ... it was very poserful. See, these are specific examples, not broad, sweeping statements like "the differences in quality are pretty obvious." Do you actually have an argument, or do you have to re-read Ebert&#39;s diatribe?

  • July 15, 2005, 1 p.m. CST

    better actors, period

    by Gaeriel

    One of the major differences between FF adn BB is that, for the most part, BB had a MUCH better cast than FF. Everyone except Katie Holmes. Christian Bale is an outstanding young actor - classically trained and really physically capable. And of course there&#39;s Morgan Freeman, Liam Niesen, Michael Caine, Gary Oldman.. etc. FF has, um, hmm, oh yeah, Jessica Alba, uh, let&#39;s see, yeah, no real heavy hitters here. I know, i know, you all think MIchael Chicklis is the best actor ever - well, okay, he&#39;s good in teh Shield, but really has very little screen power. I am talking heavy hitters. Now if the FF cast was tweaked, and the writing was MUCH better, perhaps the movie could have been good. ITs not fans of BB vs. FF, its fans of movies trying to find something that works, well, and believably. That is why BB is better, more honestly portrayed and more sincerely than FF.

  • July 15, 2005, 1:17 p.m. CST

    by b28282002

    More honestly portrayed? what the hell does that mean. Oh, yes, I forgot. Christian Bale has American Psycho under his utility belt. Classically trained and gifted actor he is not. Heavy hitter? And talk about writing, what about lines like "Does it come in black?" Corny as hell, you have to admit that. And Holmes part was written so poorly ... it had no intrigue, or any possible interest to anyone ... Vicky Vale was written and portrayed much better in Tim Burton&#39;s Batman. At least Michael Keaton and Kim Basinger had chemistry ... these two had zilch. Given all that, I liked BB a lot. But I don&#39;t try to pretend it was a "great" film, any more than was FF. They are films about comic book characters, guys!

  • July 15, 2005, 1:41 p.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    Look, I don&#39;t sully myself into playing the insult game. That makes you happy, go for it, but if you and I are going to disagree on these two movies, let&#39;s at least do it respectfully. As far as Chris Nolan goes, you&#39;re way off on Memento. That film, and Insomnia as well, is a finely-crafted thriller. Sure, if you play it "forward," it wouldn&#39;t be nearly as interesting, but the sturcture and style of the piece are what make it so commanding. Nolan allows room for the actors to grow and flex and breathe and take in a scene, and he has tremendous respect for the intelligence of the audience. Do I think he is one of "the greats?" Not necessarily, not yet, but I think he&#39;s a damn good "young" filmmaker. He&#39;s a fine storyteller. And when I say that, I take a great many things into account. Not just cinematography, editing, sound design, etc. I&#39;m talking staging of scenes, how one shots leads into another, the uniform tone of a film. This is where Tim Story fails. Rewatch Fantastic Four or Barbershop and you will see that he&#39;s an "over/over/two-shot" hack. What about the way his scenes are staged is so interesting to you? What makes you think that this guy has a better grasp on the language of cinema than Chris Nolan? Story sets a camera up and commits a scene to celluloid, sure, but there is absolutely no style or grace inherent, especially in the "smaller" scenes. He does mediums and wides and close-ups, but watching his films, I feel like he&#39;s the type of director who just collects a lot of coverage on a scene and pieces it together in post. Oh, but don&#39;t all directors do that? Not the great ones. Spielberg shoots for the edit. On set, he takes you from shot to shot, shows exactly how they&#39;ll link up to one another. TIM STORY IS JUST NOT THAT GOOD, AND IF YOU THINK OTHERWISE, YOU ARE WRONG. Now, you want specifics about why Batman Begins is a great film? Fine. 1) Bruce Wayne. He&#39;s ten times the character of anyone in F4. He has a REAL, interesting, dynamic character arc. You watch the moments of change in him, you see Bale communicate them through looks and gestures. YOU GET A SLOW BURN INSTEAD OF A RUSHED "CHANGE." You see the world change Bruce into Batman, not some freak storm we DECIDE TO CUT AWAY FROM!! Bruce&#39;s transition into Batman is studied and true. The idea of the "mask" is explored incredibly well. 2) The supporting characters. Quite simply, it&#39;s a marvel that BB was able to contain so many characters and give each of them their moment to shine. Prominent themes are set up and explored for EACH character--and there are at least a dozen major ones!! 3) The Batman/Gordon relationship is perfect, clearly laying the groundwork for future episodes. 4) Scarecrow and his fear gas were incredibly well done. The moment when Crane sees Batman under the influence is a stand out. 5) The Batmobile chase. Loved the sheer amount of devastation and the believablitiy of the entire thing. 6) The epic scope. Christ, the fact that you can&#39;t see that Batman is a "bigger" film than Fantastic Four is a shock to me. Think of how many ultra-wide, David Lean shots were in BB. Think of Iceland. Think of Gotham. THAT is how you film an epic, not with a few second unit, stock images of the New York skyline. Christ, Spider-Man 1&2 had something of an epic scope and they were set in the same place! 7) Visual effects. Seamless and subdued. Really expertly done. The arials of Gotham were wonderufl. 8) Ra&#39;as al Ghul. I know others didn&#39;t care for him, but I like the mentor role. I like that he destroys Wayne Manor, in order for Bruce to rebuild it from the ashes--AS HIS HOUSE, mind you. 9) Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman. Incredible actors who lend credibility to the world simply by being in it. Who did the Fantastic Four have, Maria Menunous? 10) FUCKING BATMAN HIMSEFL!!! This is easily the best live-action depiction of Batman ever committed to screen. The entire sequence on the docks where Batman takes out the thugs is spot-on. Hell, the scene where Batman interrogates Flass in the rain is fucking flawless. It&#39;s the best scene in the movie. If you didn&#39;t enjoy that scene, I sincerely believe you&#39;re not a Batman fan. I can go for quite some time, but--fuck it, if you honestly think that Fantastic Four is a better movie than Batman Beings, then you&#39;re already lost. Yes, BB has problems. Some of the fights need a slight breather. Some of Goyer&#39;s leftover one-liners could&#39;ve been removed. I wanted a main Batman theme in the music (though the rest of it was amazing). Katie Holmes, I can take or leave. I really like the role, thought she was fine, but I thought someone else could&#39;ve been better. Do I think Batman will be up for Oscars? Of course not. Why, if it&#39;s such a good film? Because it&#39;s not "that kind of film," that&#39;s why. Look at Spider-Man 2 last year. That&#39;s a better film than BB, was actually hailed a bit higher, and it had no real shot at best picture. My point is not that BB is one of the "best" films of the year--which, I&#39;m still pretty sure it is and will be--but that it&#39;s one of my favorites. It&#39;s a solid action spectacle with heart and drive, and it makes me look at something like Fantastic Four and laugh in comparison. I&#39;m not one of those guys who thinks every superhero movie needs to be dark and brooding--hell, I actually wish parts of Spider-Man were funnier, with more wise-cracks--but Fantastic Four feels muddled and confused. And I&#39;m just saying, b28282002, that if you can&#39;t at least see the difference in quality between BB and F4--even if just from a technical level--you might want to take a film class or two. Or hell, just watch a few more good movies, but get off this kick that guys like me are just on this movie to tear it down. I wanted it to be good. It&#39;s not. PS, two final notes: 1) don&#39;t ever claim to know what an audience in your screening was thinking about the film while you were watching it, laughter aside ("they marveled at the effects ... they were even caught up in the Sue/Reed relationship"), and 2) if you really thought there was chemistry between movie Reed and movie Sue, you oughta bone up on your protons and electrons.

  • July 15, 2005, 2:29 p.m. CST

    boning up

    by b28282002

    Well, first of all, I have taken a few film classes, as I suspect, you have as well. I also know a little about shooting, as I was a photog for a tv station for two years. So don&#39;t try and lecture me on Tim Story&#39;s "over/over/two-shot" hack. Who are you to call a major film director a hack? What have you accomplished, other than obsessing over Batman Begins on a Fantastic Four talkback? Your examples still are not specific enough to justify your argument. You keep speaking in platitudes. I take it you haven&#39;t taken very many writing classes? You do make some succinct points, and I&#39;d like to address those. First, I&#39;ll say again that I enjoyed Batman Begins, I just don&#39;t happen revere it the way you do. I think Tim Burton&#39;s Batman was better, broader in scope, much more inventive and had a great degree of style. It also left the viewers with a sense of mystery and wonder about Batman, that Nolan so painstakingly tears to shreds in order to make it more realistic. But, really, how realistically is "fear gas" or a car that can jump from rooftop to rooftop or a cape that allows Batman to fly? Your point that Bruce Wayne was on a "slow burn" on his way towards Batman is an understatement. Most of the people (not bloggers, mind you) I talked to wanted to see Batman earlier in the film, as did I. The fear gas thing was not incredibly well-done, although the one image that stands out for me in the film is when Batman is seen under the influence of the gas ... that was definitely and interesting and scary shot. As far as the wide-angle camera shots ... yes, it was shot well in that regard. But the fight scenes have been universally criticized, and those edits were Nolan&#39;s responsibility. The language was a bit overbearing and boorish. What was Wayne&#39;s quote -- "my anger fuels my rage" or something like that? Who talks like that? Only people who are trying to be melodramatic in movies. And when you compare BB to Burton&#39;s first film, think of how the final battle between Joker and Bats was shot ... the gothic cathedral ... the fight in the bell tower. The final scene of Joker hanging off the gargoyle, and the pull away shot of him lying dead with the laughter. That was great filmmaking, dude. What shots in BB can match that? By the way, this is an FF forum, so I&#39;ll make my last points about FF. I think a lot of us FF fans and people who liked the movie took a lot of shit on this website, especially when Harry and the boys were making fun of the trailers so much. When I finally got to see the film, I was pleasantly surprised. The relationships between the characters were nearly flawless, especially Johnny and Ben. When Ben woke up after the space station accident, and Johnny was telling him how horribly disfigured he was, that was hilarious when he looked into the mirror and saw his normal face. That was a great moment, and really good dialogue, because everyone in the audience knew the accident turns Ben into the thing. It was artfully and tastefully done, as was the conception of the saying "it&#39;s clobberin&#39; time" which you knew they had to place in the movie, but they did it in a funny and believable way, tying it to a toy marketing campaign. See how I talk about specific moments, and I don&#39;t swear or call you "wrong" ... and I can tell how an audience reacts to a movie. All you have to do is look around or listen, and you can see what parts they like and what parts they&#39;re bored in. Don&#39;t tell me you didn&#39;t look back at the audience during one of the opening tripod scenes of WOTW and see everyone&#39;s mouth agape ... that was pretty cool. I don&#39;t pretend to be in the minds of the audience, but you can definitely tell when a moment in a movie works. Why don&#39;t you come up with some SPECIFIC moments in BB that worked for you, other than saying it&#39;s "better" or "solid action spectacle" or "at least a dozen major" themes.

  • July 15, 2005, 6:15 p.m. CST


    by MasterWhedon

    I can see this is just going to be round after round of us kicking each other in the nuts and that no one&#39;s going to convince anyone of anything. That said, I actually respect your opinion and am glad to see you contributing the debate on this site. I would still like to go point for point on your last post, just clear some things up: 1) I wasn&#39;t lecturing you on "over/over/two-shot". I was simply pointing it out, stating that the guy doesn&#39;t have an intrinsic visual design. (The "hack" portion comes from Joss Whedon, who often refers to boring, conventional TV directors as "over/over/two-shot hacks.") The lack of true visual style is part of why Fantastic Four fails, in my opinion. A great movie needs equal parts style and substance. When one is lacking, the other can make up for it. Quite frankly, if a guy like Fincher or Spielberg shot the exact same script, I think the film would be ten times more compelling. Do you agree on that point at least, that Tim Story might&#39;ve just done a... we&#39;ll call it "competent" job? On the other hand, if the script was a bit beefier and the character moments were even better drawn, that would&#39;ve made up for the film&#39;s visual shortcomings. 2) I have accomplished a great many things in my time, thank you very much. You just don&#39;t know about them because my name is MasterWhedon and yours is b28282002. I keep reitterating the point--no one knows who&#39;s who in here, so let&#39;s not assume eveyone is the comic book guy from the Simpsons. And I&#39;ve been posting to this forum because I had a response to F4--read up a little bit further for my most immediate reactions--while you&#39;re the one who brought up Begins. I&#39;m just responding to you. 3) As for specific examples of things I liked in Batman Begins--what I&#39;ve given you might not be exactly what you&#39;re looking for, but those ten reasons above are a pretty good indication of the specific things I liked about the movie. They&#39;re not always summed up in one moment, but often in the platitude, the theme that runs throughout. What themes? We&#39;ll name a few for laughs: Bruce&#39;s quest for justice and redemption, the destruction and scourging of Gotham by the League of Shadows, the use of fear and how Bruce learns the master it, the idea of the "mask" and using symbols. And there are also plenty of great character themes used throughout, such as: "Finders keepers," "You didn&#39;t get the memo?," "Why do we fall, Bruce?," "You never give up on me, do you, Alfred? Never." If you want more specifics, we&#39;ll have to watch the movie together sometime and do a running commentary over the whole thing. 4) As for Burton&#39;s Batman, I do still enjoy that film quite a bit. There are plenty of problems with it, however. Bruce/Batman doesn&#39;t have much of a character arc. He doesn&#39;t grow, he doesn&#39;t change. We get back story, sure, but where&#39;s he going? What&#39;s his mission? It&#39;s in there, but it&#39;s not the focus. No, the focus is the Joker. I quite like character and Nicolson&#39;s performance, but not at the expense of Batman. And, in the end, Batman kills the Joker. Batman takes revenge. That&#39;s not Batman. That&#39;s the ideology of the street thugs he puts away. Maybe he doesn&#39;t directly kill the Joker, but bullshit, he does. 5) As for the mystery and the wonder, I think Nolan still had it plenty. Sure, he showed every gadget and what did what, but I again refer to that sequence on the dock where Batman appears in flashes and blurs. THAT is Batman to me. That&#39;s how it alway should have been. (The trade off is that Nolan stays a little too close on the fight scenes, but I can deal with that.) The fear gas--no, it&#39;s not "realistic," but it fits in the world of the film and is used rather exceptionally. I think the POV shots of the folks under the gas are artfully done and well-tailored to each individual (i.e. the pulsing world in Bruce&#39;s training, the Bats crawling out of the Scarecrow mask, the horse breathing fire). I would also say that all of Bruce&#39;s gadgets are giving enough plausability that you can go with it and understand that in a world just left of our own, this could happen. It&#39;s not "real," but reel enough. 6) Yes, I wish there were some "breather" wides thrown into the fight scenes, but many of those sequences still work because Batman moves in quick, crisp takedowns (i.e. the docks, the fight with Scarecrow&#39;s goons in Arkham). 7) As far as the dialgoue, I&#39;ve mentioned that there were lines in the film I didn&#39;t care for as much ("Nice coat" and "It&#39;s not who I am who defines me..." come to mind), but the "anger fuels my rage" bit is really classic Batman. Boorish melodrama? Sure, but haven&#39;t you ever read a Frank Miller Batman comic? It&#39;s in keeping with the same tone. It is melodrama. This isn&#39;t how I&#39;d write the dialgoue, no, but it works in this film and for its purpose. Also, let&#39;s not forget how on-the-nose and flat much of the dialogue in F4 is, what with the constant references to Johnny being a hothead, Reed stretching, Ben being solid, and Doom being a statue. It just feels trite. 8) The sequence where Joker falls in Batman is well done--I disagree with it on merit, as I&#39;ve already stated, but it&#39;s well done. Burton has a way with visuals, I&#39;ve always said so. And those shots fits that film. They&#39;d be out of place in Begins. This one&#39;s all about quick movements and something lurking in the shadows. Burton&#39;s film is a bit "slower," I guess you could say. That said, I still say the sequence with Flass in the alley is the best Batman scene ever committed to film. 9) Fantastic Four, finally... I was never one of the guys who ragged on F4 in the "early days." I&#39;ve always taken a "wait and see" approach. I didn&#39;t care for the music or text in that first trailer, and thought the images looked okay. Actually, I will say that I still do like the crane shot with Doom and Sue on the station, where it comes down over her and looks out onto Earth (though I don&#39;t like how they skipped frames on it in the trailer). 10) I think the relationships in the film were heading in the right direction, with Johnny and Ben&#39;s being the closest, but none of them really nailed it for me. Not flawlessly. They&#39;re established well, sure, so we&#39;ll see where it goes, but they didn&#39;t stick the landing quite yet. 11) The scene in the hospital was okay, but I thought they telegraphed it a bit. Also, it&#39;s my own nitpick, but I&#39;ve never liked straight POV shots where someone talks directly to the camera. It&#39;s me, I know, but I still find it very hard to pull anything artfull or tastefull out of that scene. 12) I really did like the "clobberin&#39; time" bit, though I wish it was an even bigger beat when he arrived to pummel Doom later. While we&#39;re on that topic, while I didn&#39;t care for the Dr. Doom "Yoko factor" bit, with him splitting up the group and curing Ben, what drove the nail in further was that after Ben switches back to help the team--okay, I understand, he&#39;s the hero--he then up and DECIDES TO STAY THAT WAY!! That, to me, is the absolute worst decision made on this film. He fights SOOOO hard to get turned back, changes his mind to help the team and then says, fuck it, I&#39;ll stay. I don&#39;t buy, and I especially don&#39;t buy them as superheroes by the end of the film. Ben can&#39;t have decided, "Well, the team&#39;s gonna need me when we go up against Galactus." because they&#39;re not even really formed as a super team yet!! They took out one guy and they don&#39;t have a super-mission statement to protect and serve. So, all that said, Ben&#39;s decision doesn&#39;t feel HUMAN to me. It feels like they just settled on the fact that the audience is expecting there to be sequels, so fine, they&#39;re heroes. I don&#39;t buy it. 13) I swear occasionally in TalkBack for emphasis. It&#39;s what I do. It&#39;s how I write when I get frustrated. I don&#39;t direct it at other folks, however, and I don&#39;t play the insult game. And the only thing I said was "wrong" was if you actually believe Tim Story is on the same level of Steven Spielberg. I respect differing opinions, just not when they are so batshit crazy as to say something like that. And that&#39;s not me calling you batshit crazy--well, unless you honestly think Tim Story is one of our cinematic "greats." 14) I still say you shouldn&#39;t purport to put yourself in the mind of the collective audience your with. Yes, catching if they think something&#39;s funny or if they&#39;re cringing in fear is one thing, but it&#39;s next to impossible to tell if "they were even caught up in the Sue/Reed relationship." 15) Finally, I guess I don&#39;t really think we should be making comparrisons between Batman Beings and Fantastic Four, which I know we&#39;ve been doing for a little while now. They&#39;ve different movies with different goals. That said, I think Batman Beings succeeds so much more as a piece than Fantastic Four that it&#39;s hard for me to unsterstand how someone could think otherwise. I&#39;m not alone in that view either. If you disagree, great, but the general consensus seems to be in my favor. Take a look at and see what the difference is between BB and F4: 84% to 23%, respectively. Say what you will about elitist critics, they clearly thought one comic book film worked better than the other. My overall complaint with F4 is that everything feels like... like I&#39;m watching a movie. I never forget that fact. The character moments feel like "character moments." It feels like a committe came through a plopped in "Ben is upset here," "Johnny is wrestless here," etc. The inner-conflicts feel forced and I really don&#39;t buy the moment Doom goes to the dark side. That&#39;s a slow burn that fizzles. I guess I can respect that this film sets up some cool stuff for later on, if handled properly but... I wanted to love this movie and I don&#39;t even really like it. That&#39;s pretty much all I have left to say about this one, but keep writing in, b28282002.

  • July 15, 2005, 7:18 p.m. CST

    Beating the Rush - The Razzies Awards

    by dark_phenix

  • July 15, 2005, 9:30 p.m. CST

    Just for contrast

    by Oliviscus

    Has anyone played the FF video game? To be honest it is better directed, and a better story than the movie. I liked the movie, almost loved it just because the FF finally made it bigtime. But to argue that the FF movie was superbly directed, or well directed, or even directed is a bigger stretch than Reed Richards ever made. Tim Story did not crucify the FF as predicited. He made an easy to see summer blockbuster. Can you blame him for that? Sure, because with all of the cumulative knowledge stored in our heads we know better. Should we blame him? Fuck no. If all the god-head directors had beaten down the door to make the FF and then Avri signed Story you might have an argument. But where were these god-like filmmakers? They passed on this like an unnecessary colonoscopy. So what? They will line up in droves for the next one and then Avri will still give it to Story. Then start bitching. Until then thank heaven and hell we got the FF on the big screen at last.

  • July 16, 2005, 12:30 a.m. CST

    Avi - fuck me I&#39;m drunk

    by Oliviscus

    Why did I stick &#39;R&#39;s in his name? Fuck if i know. Sue my fingers.

  • July 16, 2005, 1:09 a.m. CST

    People, people...they&#39;re just superhero movies.

    by Serious Black

    I really loved FF...honest. And I ain&#39;t no plant. But I&#39;m gonna have to go with Whedon on this that Batman Begins is on another level. It&#39;s a truly great film. But comparing the two is damn near impossible because they are about as different as two superhero films can be. I give props to Tim Story though for making FF work as an action comedy, which is what it is. The jokes as written are not especially funny, but Story (along with a good editor and actors) makes them work. The timing is dead on. The audience including myself laughed consistently. And why the hell am I still posting on this topic?

  • July 16, 2005, 1:38 a.m. CST


    by zamaestro


  • July 16, 2005, 1:40 a.m. CST

    Not worth it

    by zamaestro

    Why are ppl still discussing this dog doo and zirconium smoothie at 1 in the morning a week after it disapionted?

  • July 16, 2005, 1:43 a.m. CST

    Master Whedon, you Bastard!

    by b28282002

    We had a great argument going, so what are you doing getting all sensible and shit?! I thank you for your thoughtful response, but, unfortunately, I don&#39;t have it in me at 2:28am to return the favor. I really am a geek to have checked this talkback to see if anyone responded to my last post. I really need to get a life. Seriously, though, I agree that Batman Begins is a better movie cinematically, for all the reasons you stated so eloquently ... but I&#39;m a little drunk now so I can&#39;t say much more. I liked FF for what it was, a fun summer movie with a little hint of some real drama in the future. If the "Indy and the Last Crusade" homage scene at the end proves true on its promise to deliver the real Dr. Doom down the line, and if Story can wrestle Galactus away from the Fox-planned Silver Surfer movie, we might have some incredible celluloid in the next few installments ... but until then, I think it&#39;s safe to say we agree on most points about both films. If I&#39;m conceeding something here, then so be it. I&#39;ve been looking for a fight since before the movie came out, when people were dissing the trailers so violently in these talkbacks. Although I don&#39;t respect the opinions on Rotten Tomatoes, because they&#39;ve proven to be awfully wrong in the past, I do respect your thoughtful post. Now, can we get back to calling people names please? That&#39;s what anonymity is all about, after all! :)

  • July 16, 2005, 4:26 p.m. CST

    Well f4 may have taken a big dive, but it&#39;ll get a sequel, a

    by The Founder

    FOX better step up the 2nd one and take the proper time to produce it. Please lose France and Kinberg as the writers.

  • July 17, 2005, 3:30 p.m. CST

    05 summer boxoffice

    by larman

    anybody notice anything? a great movie like batman begins does well, but not amazingly well as it should? could it be that it is not a kiddie-safe movie...or appears not to be? look at FF...opened huge on huge marketing and it was played up as a good, clean fantasy scenario. much like the x-men. now look at FF plummet to the tune of 60% the following week. beat by Wonka. another movie marketed at the kid-safe demo. i think it would clear that you need a home run on an individual segment to score (wedding crashers) but you can&#39;t win without the kiddies. is this completely bad? pry not. it would be nice to have movies that didn&#39;t suck without likeable protagonists once in a while. we all thought luke skywalker was cool. did anybody think anakin was cool? different stories, blah blah...but it&#39;s a basic rule of drama. the pendulum must swing back. what&#39;s the next thing to break big? the era of gloomy super-dudes and meet-cute comedies appears to be over. any ideas?

  • July 17, 2005, 3:37 p.m. CST

    FF has now officially recouped it&#39;s budget.

    by Serious Black

    Everything from here on in is profit, profit, profit. Which means we WILL see a sequel for sure. I&#39;m glad because I was beginning to think Marvel had completely lost it. X3 looks like it will be terrible. Ghost Rider is just a ridiculously lame character that never deserved his own comic book much less his own movie. Spider-Man 2 cashed in and I&#39;m glad we&#39;ll see another sequel, but that last movie was too boring and full of overly melodramatic garbage. Punisher was alright as a dark comedy but was not really Punisher. Hulk was a worthy effort brought down by Ang Lee&#39;s relentlessly somber tone and poor pacing. Elektra was just horribly wrong; a movie about a ruthless assassin aimed at the Hillary Duff fan-club crowd? Other than FF the only recent Marvel movie that I really enjoyed was the Daredevil Director&#39;s Cut. But most people have only seen the nonsensical theatrical version and think the movie is terrible, thus dashing my hopes for another Daredevil movie. So bring on the next FF movie, already. And next time we better see the Fantasticar, more of Reed&#39;s gadgets, a REAL supernova from Johnny, the Negative Zone, Galacticus, Silver Surfer, the Mole Man, Namor, a Reed/Sue wedding, and baby Franklin. Or at least some of those things. Blackout.

  • July 17, 2005, 6:59 p.m. CST


    by Immortal_Fish

    $100mil on the second weekend. Better first week BO than Charlie. managed to rank higher than WotW. The FF &#39;has legs&#39;. But keep on hatin&#39;! -- BTW, Hulk made $100mil in 10 days. But keep on hatin&#39;!

  • July 18, 2005, 2:38 a.m. CST


    by B A M F !

    Any thoughts on who the main baddie for the (now inevitable) sequel will be? DOOM&#39;s obviously coming back, but i&#39;m wondering who else they would bring into the fold? Hopefully, despite the fact that the 1st flick IS obviously making $$$, they take heed to at least a LITTLE bit of the criticism being leveled at it and strive to delivery a better sequel. Also I imagine they&#39;ll be increasing the budget for FF2 so we can at least HOPE for a big FX upgrade. (In particular the CGI involving MR. FANTASTIC&#39;S stretching...!) BAMF!

  • July 18, 2005, 3:14 a.m. CST

    Blastar, The Beyonder, Skrulls, Kree, Super-Skrull, Captain Marv

    by Serious Black

    Okay, I got carried away with that last one. But there&#39;s tons of stuff they could throw at a sequel. I guess I&#39;m not very picky but I didn&#39;t have a problem with the special effects. My one beef was that I wish they&#39;d have made The Thing look bigger. Maybe I remember the comics wrong, but it bothered me a little that Torch was several inches taller than Thing. Very minor complaint, though.

  • July 18, 2005, 10:26 a.m. CST


    by Oliviscus

    Here is my projection for the sequels. We have already heard Puppet Master is in the batting box(lame). So we will have a movie where Reed, Ben, Sue, and Johnny don&#39;t act like themselves because they are under someone else&#39;s control. Then we will get the Skrulls, who look like the FF but do crime to discredit the FF. It will be like watching an episode of Farscape where they all switch personalities. And while I love Farscape, they will destroy this franchise if they don&#39;t go Cosmic with the Negative Zone and, of course, Galactus plotlines. They can do the Silver Surfer movie as his origin on Zenn-La and then tie the two franchises together with the &#39;Galactus wants to eat Earth&#39; bit. But that would be too easy.

  • July 18, 2005, 10:27 p.m. CST

    what did you expect?

    by liverlips

    Just saw the FF was everything I hoped for...maybe better. I don&#39;t know what peopel expect from comicbook movies...they&#39;re based on comicbooks for christ sake! People act like FOX did them a great injustice. I thought it was a fun movie and captured the spirit of everything I remembered about the group. Now that the origin has been covered, the sequel can go straight into the action like X2. Maybe the opening scene could be a Jack Kirby monstrosity bursting through the sewers at the prodding of the Moleman. But I&#39;m sure that wouldn&#39;t please the fans either.

  • To the haters who were laughing because Fantastic Four fell to a $6.5 million gross in its second weekend, suck on this: it grossed $12.3 million in its third week for a total of $122.6 million and it&#39;s still in the top five, outgrossing the Michael Bay juggernaut The Island. Right now hundreds of Talk Back fanboys are sitting with their thumbs up their asses worrying how to face reality after this.

  • July 25, 2005, 12:14 a.m. CST

    Assking, it got 3rd place this weekend forget top 5.

    by Bulldoggie

    . . .and I think it&#39;s fan-fucking-tastic . . . But no one likes Bay so what the hell are you talking about?

  • nm

  • I know everyone is supposed to hate it, but honestly, it wasn&#39;t that bad. It wasn&#39;t Electra bad. I think I even enjoyed it better than (the theatrical cut of) Daredevil. And I am not someone who does not understand the language of film or special effects or comics. I am a visual effects artist, and I went to see it with another visual effects artist and a film editor; all of us love Marvel comics and buy them regularly, including FF. And we all enjoyed this film. The whole theater enjoyed this film. People cheered, literally cheered, for Johnny when he avoided that torpedo, and this was not opening night either. There was no catcalling thru the entire movie. I have talked to other people and they had the same experience. Yes, the special effects were lame-o, and yes, Dr. Doom was GreenGoblin-ified. But there was a lot there that was really enjoyable; not great, but enjoyable. Everything with the Thing, except that negligee bit. Everything with the Human Torch except the x-games bit. And some really sweet stuff with Mr. Fantastic. I don&#39;t know what movie critics saw, but I saw this one and thought it was a lot of fun.

  • July 25, 2005, 9:47 p.m. CST

    Just saw FF.....

    by ScaredCrab

    I don&#39;t know where to start...this was easily the most rancid foul excuse ever for a super hero movie I have ever seen. I would rather watch a Joel Schumacher directed Batman while getting ass raped underwater by rabid monkeys. I don&#39;t feel strongly enough about how badly directed this movie was. I would rather eat my own shit topped with broken glass and burning styrofoam than watch this movie again.

  • July 28, 2005, 7:12 a.m. CST

    FF 2005

    by Rufus-T-Firefly

    This just opened this week in London. As a NY-er born and bred, and a long time fan of the comic, I was awaiting this with trepadation since I&#39;d heard nothing really good about it. I was surprised, however. I thought this was a tight, fun-filled reminiscence of my childhood favorites brought tolife. Easily as good as Spiderman I or X-Men I, better than DD or Electra. I think a lot of the critics of this movie forgot what suspension of belief is all about, and are somewhat jaded given the recent crop of better than good superhero movies. The Torch? Perfect, except for lack of blond hair. Thing? Excellent early FF representation. Sue? Well, what did you expect? Even in the comic, she&#39;s just eye candy. Her only fleshed-out role was as Franklin&#39;s mother. She never was a believable scientist in print, and that carried over to screen. Reed? I thought I&#39;d hate the casting, but I think Ioan is perfect. Doom? Other than the voice - let&#39;s face it, you expect to hear James Earl Jones - very good. Story? It was an origin story. Same as all the others. Looking forward to FF 2 - The Rise of The Inhumans!

  • July 28, 2005, 5:32 p.m. CST

    Grant Mitchell?

    by Neilgeo

    Nice that they picked jobbing ex eastenders actor Ross Kemp to play Ben Grimm aka the Thing. He deserves his shot at fame. Now he can play someone made of stone rather than fucking wood like he usually does.

  • July 30, 2005, 3:35 a.m. CST

    You guys are all fucking nuts.

    by doonae

    I went to see it and thought it was going to be this total steaming pile of dogshit after reading the review and talkbacks. I actually enjoyed it, thought it was funny in parts.

  • July 30, 2005, 4:39 a.m. CST


    by 69DUDE

    Right, just seen the FF movie. Y&#39;know what? I enjoyed it. It&#39;s not the best film ever, nor is it the best FF film it could have been but it&#39;s a fun flick. Script issues aside, I came out thinking that there must be a longer and better version out there somewhere because this one felt rushed. You could almost sense the missing footage somewhere. Like Daredevil, I think this is a case of studio intervention and I really hope that Tim Story gets to release a directors cut like MSJ did. The only other nitpick is that this film was clearly underfunded in the same way that the first X-Men was (notice the Fox connection with all these examples?) hence the 2/3 action scenes max. Anyway, I enjoyed this movie as I know others did too. I&#39;m just grateful that the FF are finally up on the big screen. As for FF2 - Bigger budget, more action, oh and a cameo by another Marvel character! C&#39;mon it happened all the time in the FF comics!!!

  • July 30, 2005, 4:02 p.m. CST

    It is bad

    by dittersdoof

    Sad movie, cheap effects, lousy dialogues. The guy sitting next to me looked just like the thing, that

  • Aug. 12, 2005, 5:07 p.m. CST

    Save the Last Dance for......................

    by rockket

    INT. AIRPORT - DAY LOKI walks beside a NUN in a semi-busy terminal. They pass through the metal detectors. The Nun carries a donation can. LOKI Leaving &#39;Alice in Wonderland&#39; aside, look closely at &#39;Through the Looking Glass&#39; - particularly &#39;The Walrus and the Carpenter&#39; poem: what&#39;s the metaphorical meaning? NUN I wasn&#39;t aware there was one. LOKI Oh, but there is - it colorfully details the sham that is organized religion. The Walrus - with his girth and good-nature - obviously refers to either the Buddha, or - with his tusks - the lovable Hindu elephant god, Lord Ganesha. This takes care of the Eastern religions. The Carpenter is an Obvious reference to Jesus Christ, who was purportedly raised the son of a carpenter. He represents the Western religions. And in the poem, what do they do? They dupe all the oysters into following them. Then, when the oysters collective guard is down, the Walrus and the Carpenter shuck and devour the helpless creatures, en masse. I don&#39;t know what that says to you, but to me it says that following faiths based on these mythological figures insures the destruction of one&#39;s inner-being. BARTLEBY sits amongst a row of seats by one of the arrival gates. He eats popcorn and stares at... A steady stream of TRAVELERS, exiting the gate, meeting loved ones, family. OC LOKI Organized religion destroys who we are or who we can be by inhibiting our actions and decisions out of fear of an intangible parent-figure who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago and says "No, no!" Bartleby smiles at the meet-and-greets, warmed. Loki saddles up beside him, kneeling on one of the seats, facing the Nun. LOKI &#39;Through the Looking Glass&#39; - a children&#39;s tale? I think not. NUN (really dazed) I&#39;ve... I&#39;ve never really thought about it like that... (beat; shocked; off her cassock) What have I been doing with my life...? LOKI Don&#39;t look back. Just get out there and taste life. (off donation can) Leave this for the unenlightened. Poverty is for the gullible - it&#39;s another way the church is trying to control you. You take that money you&#39;ve been collecting for your parish reconstruction and go get yourself a nice piece of ass. You deserve it. The Nun nods at him, and saunters off, obviously grappling with something. A passerby tries to stick money in her can, but she yanks it away. Loki faces the proper direction in his seat and plops down beside the still-transfixed Bartleby.

  • Aug. 15, 2005, 6:36 p.m. CST

    Ignore everthing negative Harry said

    by No_Dumb_Yank

    This film was excellent. Great special effects and good acting. It did feel like it had one action scene missing (i.e. it was a little short) but that was the only gripe I had. I used to be a big fan of the Fantastic 4 and this film reminded me of the comics. Overall about 7/10. Can&#39;t wait for the DVD.

  • Sept. 11, 2005, 6:01 p.m. CST

    Dr. Doom

    by Apecod

    I realize this comment is a couple of months late, but here I go. The fact that the producers managed to miss that Dr. Doom is the most beloved villian in the history of villians (comics, films even real life!) is further proof holywood can&#39;t seem to put two and two together (faith in the original story + rabid built in audience = MONEY!